WEBVTT 00:00:02.669 --> 00:00:06.290 Hi, Dr. Honora Wall here, welcoming you to the 00:00:06.290 --> 00:00:10.189 What in the World is Dyscalculia? podcast. And 00:00:10.189 --> 00:00:15.189 this podcast is supported by the educalclearning 00:00:15.189 --> 00:00:20.589 .com company, where we have a lot of individual 00:00:20.589 --> 00:00:23.969 services and help for people with dyscalculia 00:00:23.969 --> 00:00:27.960 and quite a few research articles and information 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:31.420 for you. We also work quite a bit with the Dyscalculia 00:00:31.420 --> 00:00:34.179 Training and Research Institute, and that is 00:00:34.179 --> 00:00:38.479 a nonprofit based here in the US that works on 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.179 a larger scale with schools and school districts 00:00:41.179 --> 00:00:44.460 and individuals. If you have any question, email 00:00:44.460 --> 00:00:48.740 me at either one of those places. And our podcast 00:00:48.740 --> 00:00:53.600 talks about the math learning disability, which 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:58.969 is called So in this episode, I'm actually going 00:00:58.969 --> 00:01:03.229 to talk a little bit about research in general, 00:01:03.990 --> 00:01:07.730 not necessarily a specific study on dyscalculia, 00:01:07.810 --> 00:01:10.150 but I do want to talk a lot about research in 00:01:10.150 --> 00:01:14.109 this season. So we're going to start with an 00:01:14.109 --> 00:01:19.060 analogy that I think will help. us all understand 00:01:19.060 --> 00:01:22.519 some of the limitations of being research -based, 00:01:22.980 --> 00:01:25.680 research -informed, just talking about research 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:31.140 in general with other people, be them colleagues 00:01:31.140 --> 00:01:34.540 in the education sphere or just other parents 00:01:34.540 --> 00:01:37.760 or people who may or may not have had a lot of 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:42.170 exposure to published research. Because we do 00:01:42.170 --> 00:01:45.510 want things to be research informed. We want 00:01:45.510 --> 00:01:48.750 to know that someone has taken a good idea and 00:01:48.750 --> 00:01:52.030 studied it and then they can tell us what they 00:01:52.030 --> 00:01:55.810 found. But until you've really done some research 00:01:55.810 --> 00:01:58.390 studies, it's hard to know what goes into that 00:01:58.390 --> 00:02:02.010 and what you can therefore take from a research 00:02:02.010 --> 00:02:06.549 study. Here's my analogy. This is what got me 00:02:06.549 --> 00:02:09.449 off on this tangent. I was having a conversation 00:02:09.449 --> 00:02:13.650 recently. with a friend and colleague who talked 00:02:13.650 --> 00:02:18.229 about a friend and colleague who was using in 00:02:18.229 --> 00:02:22.750 their AP psych class a research study that says 00:02:22.750 --> 00:02:25.870 people who make their bed every morning make 00:02:25.870 --> 00:02:29.969 more money. So this was our conversation. What 00:02:29.969 --> 00:02:32.629 it kicked off in my head is first of all talking 00:02:32.629 --> 00:02:36.229 to a friend about their friend is your trigger 00:02:36.229 --> 00:02:40.240 to go find the original source. you've got to 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:45.020 go back to the actual article, not the referral 00:02:45.020 --> 00:02:50.419 from a few steps removed, not the AI generated 00:02:50.419 --> 00:02:53.919 lead -in, not the potential clickbait headline. 00:02:54.259 --> 00:02:57.379 Go to Google Scholar, keep clicking back through 00:02:57.379 --> 00:03:01.419 articles if that's your beginning method, find 00:03:01.419 --> 00:03:04.460 the original source material. So that's part 00:03:04.460 --> 00:03:07.500 one. And then part two, and I'm not picking on 00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:10.729 the study. I want to make that clear. If you 00:03:10.729 --> 00:03:14.370 like making your bed, make your bed. If you like 00:03:14.370 --> 00:03:16.210 finding anything that will give you an edge to 00:03:16.210 --> 00:03:19.150 be more financially successful, find that edge. 00:03:20.150 --> 00:03:21.969 Try out different things that could help you 00:03:21.969 --> 00:03:24.349 be more financially successful and see what works 00:03:24.349 --> 00:03:26.870 for you. If you don't want to make your bed, 00:03:27.310 --> 00:03:30.229 don't make your bed. I'm not concerned either 00:03:30.229 --> 00:03:33.229 way. I'm really just talking about how we use 00:03:33.229 --> 00:03:37.009 research in our conversations and how we use 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:41.419 studies in our conversation and what are some 00:03:41.419 --> 00:03:43.460 best practices we really should be following 00:03:43.460 --> 00:03:48.719 in that sphere. So the first thing that I thought 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:52.379 was, okay, this sounds like a really great idea. 00:03:52.460 --> 00:03:56.240 Quick fix. If you do something simple at the 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:58.080 beginning of every day, it's going to be tied 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:03.439 directly to earning money later. So first I want 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:07.319 to point out a flaw in using that kind of thinking 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:12.939 to interpret studies and research because it's 00:04:12.939 --> 00:04:15.400 something that we do quite a bit and just as 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:18.379 people we fall into this trap we all do myself 00:04:18.379 --> 00:04:20.660 included and we just have to check ourselves 00:04:20.660 --> 00:04:25.939 when it happens so here's the flaw thinking that 00:04:25.939 --> 00:04:30.720 one study can be generalized to all situations 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:36.199 and in the same vein, thinking that any studies 00:04:36.199 --> 00:04:41.040 determine an absolute cause and effect. That's 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.959 not how statistics work. We could say that we 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:48.819 looked into something and we found a statistically 00:04:48.819 --> 00:04:52.600 significant difference. All things considered, 00:04:53.100 --> 00:04:56.480 we expect to see this happen more often than 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:00.540 that. That's as close as we can come with statistics. 00:05:01.019 --> 00:05:06.779 We don't have 100 % return on pretty much anything 00:05:06.779 --> 00:05:10.579 except that living things die. That's pretty 00:05:10.579 --> 00:05:14.019 much it. Everything else has some little bit 00:05:14.019 --> 00:05:19.279 of ends that don't quite meet the middle. And 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:21.540 what we talk about in research studies is the 00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:24.019 middle. It does give us the best bang for our 00:05:24.019 --> 00:05:27.980 buck in most situations. That's why we use research 00:05:27.980 --> 00:05:31.920 studies. And they are very important. but they're 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:34.259 not a direct cause and effect and they're not 00:05:34.259 --> 00:05:40.279 always the only cause making an effect. So while 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:44.480 it may be true that people who make their bed 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:48.879 tend to make more money, it's also true that 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:51.920 plenty of people make their bed and don't make 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:55.160 very much money. It's also true that some people 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:59.800 who never make their bed also earn more money. 00:05:59.850 --> 00:06:02.050 And then, of course, we have to ask, earn more 00:06:02.050 --> 00:06:06.910 money than what? What is our standard? And that's 00:06:06.910 --> 00:06:08.889 where our standard deviations come from. Here's 00:06:08.889 --> 00:06:11.810 what we expect. Are we going further or behind? 00:06:12.709 --> 00:06:15.970 What are we comparing it to? So that's an important 00:06:15.970 --> 00:06:18.850 question. When you're looking at any research 00:06:18.850 --> 00:06:23.209 study, what is the standard we're comparing against? 00:06:23.569 --> 00:06:26.769 What is the change that we're trying to measure? 00:06:27.170 --> 00:06:30.879 And then account for the situations where that 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:34.800 change does not make a difference. It also begs 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:37.879 the question, is that the only thing that has 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:41.279 an impact on future earnings? Are there any other 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:47.160 variables besides just making a bed that would 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.060 impact future earnings? Does it matter what time 00:06:50.060 --> 00:06:53.779 this person made the bed? Could it have been 00:06:53.779 --> 00:06:55.399 in the morning? Could it have been at night? 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:57.399 Could it have been every Saturday afternoon? 00:06:58.290 --> 00:07:01.509 Does that have any impact? Maybe it's just the 00:07:01.509 --> 00:07:03.829 consistency of doing something you don't like 00:07:03.829 --> 00:07:06.149 because most people don't like making their bed, 00:07:06.889 --> 00:07:10.129 making yourself do that uncomfortable thing early. 00:07:10.569 --> 00:07:12.910 So you've broken the seal for the day and are 00:07:12.910 --> 00:07:15.910 you then more likely to do more small things 00:07:15.910 --> 00:07:18.610 that add up to big results? Are you then more 00:07:18.610 --> 00:07:21.290 likely to do things you don't particularly enjoy 00:07:21.290 --> 00:07:25.500 because of their perceived benefit? It could 00:07:25.500 --> 00:07:27.319 have been any one of those things that were used 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:33.439 as a research question, as that hypothesis. So 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:37.399 we have to look at that as well when we're looking 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:41.399 at research -based practices or researched informed 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.800 ideas and getting them into practical strategies, 00:07:46.420 --> 00:07:50.040 especially in the classroom. We also want to 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:53.220 be careful about bias. And this is something 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:55.980 that researchers will put in the beginning of 00:07:55.980 --> 00:07:57.899 their studies. If they think they have a bias 00:07:57.899 --> 00:08:00.980 or any kind of conflict, they state it so you 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:04.740 know upfront. And that could be anything from, 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:08.959 does this person who did the study really particularly 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:13.500 enjoy a clean, nicely made bet? Maybe they had 00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:18.660 an inherent bias towards that. Does this person 00:08:18.660 --> 00:08:23.439 who wrote the study really enjoy doing things 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:26.259 that feel uncomfortable. Maybe they have an internal 00:08:26.259 --> 00:08:31.079 reward system that's tied to that. It also includes 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:35.559 the idea that everyone has a bet, that everyone 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:38.899 has a nice set of sheets, that everyone has the 00:08:38.899 --> 00:08:44.539 time in the morning to make that bet. Could those 00:08:44.539 --> 00:08:48.039 other environmental and societal factors influence 00:08:48.429 --> 00:08:51.029 making more money. So we have to be careful looking 00:08:51.029 --> 00:08:56.409 at all those variables and add bias. We also 00:08:56.409 --> 00:09:00.750 want to be careful because sometimes things have 00:09:00.750 --> 00:09:07.009 a moral bias within society and that can influence 00:09:07.009 --> 00:09:10.970 a lot of our research studies. Again, a good 00:09:10.970 --> 00:09:13.710 researcher is going to analyze that before they 00:09:13.710 --> 00:09:15.629 conduct their study and they're going to put 00:09:15.629 --> 00:09:18.879 it out there. So you can go find out. what their 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:22.360 frame of mind was when they started their study. 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.659 But here's the the moral implications. It sounds 00:09:25.659 --> 00:09:29.720 really good to make your bed every day and your 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:32.840 room looks clean and nice. This is also a really 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.980 nice idea for most parents. They like to tell 00:09:35.980 --> 00:09:38.279 their kids to go clean their room and make their 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:43.460 bed. So are we using any kind of propaganda throughout 00:09:43.460 --> 00:09:46.679 our study or does the study reinforce propaganda 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.000 we enjoy? And therefore, we cite the study when 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.320 we talk to other people. Maybe yes, maybe no. 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:55.840 But it's a question that needs to be examined 00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:01.320 when we're talking about research. Looking at 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:04.019 those different variables, there's another big 00:10:04.019 --> 00:10:08.639 piece of research. How many things were tested 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:10.919 in the study? Did it only look at people who 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:13.960 made their bed versus people who did not? Did 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:16.960 they also look at economic background, family 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:20.690 background? levels of education, field that they 00:10:20.690 --> 00:10:25.070 worked in, gender, age. I have no idea if any 00:10:25.070 --> 00:10:29.330 of those things would necessarily impact lifetime 00:10:29.330 --> 00:10:32.330 earnings. I can make my own assumptions and have 00:10:32.330 --> 00:10:35.389 my own bias. And then I can go look at other 00:10:35.389 --> 00:10:39.190 studies and see how they were conducted and see 00:10:39.190 --> 00:10:43.230 what information that yields. So this is a lot 00:10:43.230 --> 00:10:45.649 of what we really should be talking about in 00:10:45.649 --> 00:10:49.549 our statistics classes. It's also a lot of what 00:10:49.549 --> 00:10:52.690 we should be talking about in geometry. We've 00:10:52.690 --> 00:10:55.789 got to get a lot of this algebra out of geometry. 00:10:56.230 --> 00:10:58.789 Algebra has plenty enough of its own courses. 00:10:59.129 --> 00:11:01.850 Algebra 1, Algebra 2, there's a ton of it in 00:11:01.850 --> 00:11:04.330 PreCalc and Calc. Now we shove it into middle 00:11:04.330 --> 00:11:08.049 and elementary school. Let's leave geometry for 00:11:08.049 --> 00:11:11.909 critical thinking, logic statements, and proofs. 00:11:11.909 --> 00:11:14.289 If you're going to say something, you had better 00:11:14.289 --> 00:11:18.750 be able to justify it with a solid reason. And 00:11:18.750 --> 00:11:21.610 those reasons come from very specific small places. 00:11:22.370 --> 00:11:25.870 Definitions, postulates, theorems we've already 00:11:25.870 --> 00:11:31.129 proven. But I digress. Going back to the idea 00:11:31.129 --> 00:11:34.700 of this research study. So once I got onto this 00:11:34.700 --> 00:11:38.539 track of how do we talk about research, where 00:11:38.539 --> 00:11:42.899 does it come from? Are we really thinking cohesively 00:11:42.899 --> 00:11:45.639 about everything that can impact a research study 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:49.240 and using that when we read them and then try 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:52.659 to apply them? The best thing you can do, as 00:11:52.659 --> 00:11:55.600 I said in the beginning, is go to the original 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:59.320 source, which I would love to bring you, but 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:02.070 I couldn't find one. I'm sure there probably 00:12:02.070 --> 00:12:05.490 is a research study in a peer -reviewed journal 00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:09.710 that examines this idea. And if so, if you find 00:12:09.710 --> 00:12:13.470 it, please send it to me, hanora, h -o -n -o 00:12:13.470 --> 00:12:19.730 -r -a, at eduCalcLearning .com or hanora at thedtri 00:12:19.730 --> 00:12:24.049 .org. If I get it, I'm happy to do another episode 00:12:24.049 --> 00:12:27.149 where we examine it and talk about it. I couldn't 00:12:27.149 --> 00:12:32.980 find it. I found a lot of articles and stories 00:12:32.980 --> 00:12:37.080 and a few books and TV shows that talked about 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:41.159 a study that says, but I could not find a link 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:46.100 that went back to the study. I found quite a 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:48.799 few articles on Google Scholar that looked at 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.899 different things related to beds, usually involving 00:12:52.899 --> 00:12:55.200 a sleep study that talked about how much sleep 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:58.009 a person got at night. whether or not they could 00:12:58.009 --> 00:13:00.470 make up that sleep, how that sleep impacted the 00:13:00.470 --> 00:13:03.210 way they felt during the days. I found some polls, 00:13:03.870 --> 00:13:06.789 which are people's personal opinions, which is 00:13:06.789 --> 00:13:10.730 valid in many places of research, especially 00:13:10.730 --> 00:13:14.090 qualitative research. But that's different than 00:13:14.090 --> 00:13:18.210 quantitative. So I'd like to know, is there a 00:13:18.210 --> 00:13:21.970 study? How is it done? Was it qualitative or 00:13:21.970 --> 00:13:24.389 quantitative? Was it both? Did they do a mixed 00:13:24.389 --> 00:13:27.610 methods? I'm just not sure. But if I can't find 00:13:27.610 --> 00:13:31.309 it on Google Scholar, and I can't find it through 00:13:31.309 --> 00:13:34.649 other research avenues where I'm going to look 00:13:34.649 --> 00:13:38.990 for the article, then I really question. I feel 00:13:38.990 --> 00:13:42.769 like then any idea, not just making the bed, 00:13:43.730 --> 00:13:46.690 any idea becomes part of our pop culture, part 00:13:46.690 --> 00:13:50.259 of our storytelling vernacular. But if none of 00:13:50.259 --> 00:13:52.779 us are going back to the original source, then 00:13:52.779 --> 00:13:55.539 we have too many interpretations. It's a telephone 00:13:55.539 --> 00:13:58.360 game. And we're not really looking at the bias, 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:02.100 the limitations. What was the statistical significance? 00:14:02.299 --> 00:14:05.000 Were any other variables included? We're just 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:08.120 left with too many questions and not enough answers. 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.500 But that's really annoying and time consuming 00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:14.799 and more than what a lot of people want to do. 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:18.480 They want to know a study said this, now I can 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.460 trust it and I can use it. But we want to be 00:14:21.460 --> 00:14:25.580 really careful with that. Clearly I'm using this 00:14:25.580 --> 00:14:29.620 as an analogy because most of us have a bed and 00:14:29.620 --> 00:14:31.580 most of us have a preference on whether or not 00:14:31.580 --> 00:14:33.940 we make that bed first thing in the morning. 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:38.679 Most of us would appreciate greater financial 00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:42.980 lifetime earnings. So I'm using it as an analogy. 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:47.259 But I want you to apply these things to any research 00:14:47.259 --> 00:14:51.440 -based program, research -based idea, research 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:54.299 -informed, anything at all. I want you to go 00:14:54.299 --> 00:14:57.580 back to the original source, and I want you to 00:14:57.580 --> 00:15:01.100 get comfortable reading about the limitations, 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:04.980 reading about the results. Even if you're uncomfortable 00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:08.960 with the standard deviation and the p -hat and 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:11.779 the graphs, at least go to the summary. Look 00:15:11.779 --> 00:15:14.679 at the methodology. section so you can see who 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:18.259 was included, who was excluded, and how the study 00:15:18.259 --> 00:15:21.919 was presented, how it was designed. These are 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:24.620 things that are going to give you proof of concept 00:15:24.620 --> 00:15:27.419 and the ability to trust in results, and then 00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:30.399 you can analyze it through an application lens 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:34.500 and try things out in your classroom. And if 00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:37.600 you're teaching upper -level math and science, 00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:41.419 these are some really important questions to 00:15:41.870 --> 00:15:44.029 generate in the classroom and get some class 00:15:44.029 --> 00:15:47.350 discussion around. Statistics is not just figuring 00:15:47.350 --> 00:15:53.870 out standard deviation or the z -score. Any computer 00:15:53.870 --> 00:15:56.309 program can do that. Any calculator can do that. 00:15:56.309 --> 00:15:59.009 You can do it by hand. It's really not even that 00:15:59.009 --> 00:16:02.070 difficult. It's just time consuming. Understanding 00:16:02.070 --> 00:16:06.730 what that means and the limitations around it 00:16:06.730 --> 00:16:11.509 and the application, that is the really important 00:16:11.509 --> 00:16:15.649 part of studying statistics and understanding 00:16:15.649 --> 00:16:19.370 research. In geometry class, I want you to spend 00:16:19.370 --> 00:16:23.029 a lot more time on logic statements and proofs 00:16:23.029 --> 00:16:26.950 because having reasons that justify your statement, 00:16:27.470 --> 00:16:30.090 that is the most important thing that we learn 00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:33.370 in geometry because it changes the way you think 00:16:33.370 --> 00:16:36.110 and it develops those critical thinking skills 00:16:36.110 --> 00:16:42.059 that make us better at analyzing our world and 00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:44.980 the information that we get. Big part of data 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:47.580 science too, understanding the information we're 00:16:47.580 --> 00:16:52.299 given and questioning the information against 00:16:52.299 --> 00:16:56.799 reliable methods. So that's the lens we're going 00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:59.049 to use. Throughout this season, we are going 00:16:59.049 --> 00:17:02.070 to do a lot more analysis of research studies 00:17:02.070 --> 00:17:06.789 around dyscalculia and the DTRI is looking to 00:17:06.789 --> 00:17:08.910 embark on a couple of exciting ones. So hopefully 00:17:08.910 --> 00:17:12.230 we'll be adding to the knowledge base of published 00:17:12.230 --> 00:17:14.869 research around the math learning disability. 00:17:15.250 --> 00:17:18.369 And we are working on getting more of these posted 00:17:18.369 --> 00:17:22.970 on the website so that you can go read the original 00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:25.789 source material yourself. Don't take my word 00:17:25.789 --> 00:17:29.700 for it either. Verify everything that anyone 00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:34.079 tells you about dyscalculia, especially, but 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:38.339 in general, trust and verify. All right. I am 00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:40.640 Dr. Hanora Wall. I'm really glad that you joined 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:44.460 us for this episode of what in the world is dyscalculia. 00:17:44.619 --> 00:17:47.579 And if you have any questions, comments, or ideas 00:17:47.579 --> 00:17:50.579 for future podcasts, or if you want to send me 00:17:50.579 --> 00:17:53.900 the research study. tying making your bed to 00:17:53.900 --> 00:17:57.039 future lifetime earnings, please send me an email. 00:17:57.140 --> 00:18:00.500 I'm happy to hear your comments. Have a great 00:18:00.500 --> 00:18:00.720 day.