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Hello and welcome to this edition of the What in the World is Dyscalculia podcast.

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I'm your host, Dr. Honora Wall, and the podcast is put on by EduCalc Learning.

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And you can visit educalclearning.com to learn more about the math learning disorder

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Dyscalculia and see some of the products and services we have for teacher training and

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for K-12 online classes for people who have Dyscalculia.

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And we can also incorporate those into your school if you'd like to use them in the classroom.

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If you visit the DTRI.org, you can get a lot of free information and resources from the

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Dyscalculia Training and Research Institute.

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And those are both places where you can ask questions about Dyscalculia, how do you tell

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the math learning disability from other math struggles, and what you should do to help

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support students, colleagues, and coworkers who have math learning disabilities.

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Today I want to talk a little bit about testing, though.

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And I want to talk about the new trend, the up and coming, all super exciting.

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Everybody's doing it, even the SAT, which I found exceptionally bizarre, the idea of adaptive

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testing.

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I am 100% against adaptive testing.

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I want to make that very clear.

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So if you are a big fan of adaptive testing, this might be where you turn off this podcast

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and go listen to something else.

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I would completely understand because I can tell you I'm not going to be promoting anything

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about adaptive testing in this episode.

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So let's talk about what adaptive testing is.

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This is a method of testing used predominantly with students.

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Now we're seeing it sort of encroach into the higher education space as well.

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It's very popular in math.

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I don't know how popular it is in science or social studies or reading.

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I haven't seen too many reports about that, but in math testing, it is the shiny new object.

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So here's what happens in adaptive testing in a nutshell.

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A computer is coded for test questions and the questions are coded for difficulty level.

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And when the student takes the test, if they get an answer right, then their next question

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is a little bit harder.

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And if they get an answer wrong, then their next question is a little bit easier.

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And the idea behind it is that the questions can go up and down a difficulty level finding

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a maximum high point free student.

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So this sounds wonderful.

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We have a few problems though and a few questions that personally have not seen any answers to.

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If you are in the world of adaptive testing and you have answers to some of the questions

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I'm going to pose, please send the information to me.

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I would love to know more about the coding process in adaptive testing because my first

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question is what makes a topic easy or difficult?

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How are we defining that?

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Now of course the generic answer is oh we can define difficulty level based on grade

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level standards.

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Okay, super.

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How do we know whether or not a question is designed to interpret or analyze proficiency

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on a standard?

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Now this is a huge question.

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I do not have time in a podcast series much less one episode to answer just that question.

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The idea of validity and reliability, these are very specific terms when it comes to assessment

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tools and when it comes to research.

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And it is not something that can be done off of one question.

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One question bank, one test writer, the whole purpose of validity and reliability is that

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something tests exactly what it is supposed to, not anything else, and that it gives equal

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results across a large group of people.

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So that brings me to another question.

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How can we say that any of these adaptive testing tools are yet valid or reliable when

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they are so brand new?

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We need so much data before we can rely on the results of adaptive testing that at this

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point in time it is really a data gathering tool, it is not an assessment tool.

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That is my first two questions.

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My next question is how do we know whether or not a question is measuring what we want

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it to do?

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And this is actually a very involved question.

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There will be some longer episodes because this has happened a lot in my work with students

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and I need to address it in some YouTube videos so I can show you the word problems and the

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formatting of questions and answers so that we can have a greater discussion.

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But there are a lot of assessment questions out there that are so convoluted, so dense,

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they are really testing vocabulary level, they are testing sentence complexity more

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than they are testing math knowledge, computational or conceptual.

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This is a problem not only for people with dyscalculia but also people with dyslexia,

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people with ADHD, people with dysgraphia, people with different educational backgrounds

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based on how much vocabulary exposure they may or may not have had at their school and

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that happens in all levels of schools not only low SES but also any school of any size

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because it is really teacher based as well as curriculum based, it is very complex.

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So we need some assessments that will reach a much larger audience not only the kids who

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have had tons of exposure to higher level vocabulary and who read incredibly well and

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who interpret their text very well.

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We also have a lot of questions that are working backwards if you know the total volume how

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do you work backwards to something, if you know the total of this how do you work backwards

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and then use it to find the whatever of something new with a change.

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And those are great questions and absolutely students with dyscalculia are more than capable

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of answering them if they have had the exposure and the training and the practice and the

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work to prep for that.

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So we really don't know that going into assessments and a lot of math assessments if you look at

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them they don't have a really wide variety of levels.

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And what I mean by that is let's say we do have a question where we want the student

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to take the volume and work backwards to find let's say the side or the area of something

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or the height or the radius of something.

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Okay so we need them to use some inverse operations and work properly within a formula.

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So then a test, adaptive or not should really test that concept in a variety of ways with

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a word problem with higher level vocabulary, with a word problem with more accessible vocabulary,

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with an image, without an image, with a formula listed, without a formula listed, with a calculator,

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with numbers that make sense, with a fraction, with a decimal, with whole numbers.

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That way you are giving the same topic, the same skill set of finding one particular measurement

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when given the total volume.

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And that's what you are searching for.

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With a variety of question types then you can decide, alright this student performed

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very well with an image.

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This student performed very well when there was no clutter and they just had a very direct

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word problem to answer.

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This student performed very well when they were given information and had to find the

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total volume.

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This student worked very well when they had volume and they were finding a side.

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But maybe they didn't do it as well with radius.

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Okay now we understand there is a vocabulary difference or some intimidation with circles.

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So having one skill set presented through a number of different question types, now we

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can really find out where the problem may or may not lie for individual students.

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I have not seen any evidence of adaptive testing approaching assessment in this way.

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In one skill set, one topic and presenting it in different ways.

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To find out does the student have an issue with word problems, with graphics, with fractions

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or is it a problem with understanding how to work the formula.

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And that is a really important question.

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And when we are talking about getting a more difficult or less difficult question, because

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a student got the answer wrong.

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Here is where I really have a problem with adaptive testing.

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Why did the student get the answer wrong?

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Now everyone listening probably has their own idea in their head about why a student

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got an answer wrong.

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If we could put you all in a room, you would all have a different comment on why a student

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got an answer wrong.

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And that is exactly the problem.

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We don't know if the student has never worked with volume, maybe they don't know their basic

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facts, maybe they freaked out at the word problem, maybe they have terrible anxiety over test

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taking, maybe they have a cold today, maybe their parents are getting divorced or they

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just moved or in a lot of places across the country.

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And any time during the school year there could have been a hurricane, a tornado, a

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thunderstorm with hurricane force winds that destroyed something in town.

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There could be a family medical emergency.

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All of these things impact performance.

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Maybe the student got the answer wrong because they hit the 7, but their finger also hit

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the 4 and they typed in 47 or 74 without realizing it.

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A lot of these adaptive tests are moving away from multiple choice answers.

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They are only giving a blank fill in answer.

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Well then, we have no idea if the student rounded incorrectly, estimated improperly,

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was the computer program coded to take a variety of answers in case the problem was estimation.

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Maybe the problem is that the student forgot to hit a decimal point or put it in the wrong

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place, which is an incredibly different problem than not understanding the math topic at all.

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So we can give these adaptive tests, but all we know is that we are bouncing children around

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like ping pong balls.

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We have no idea why they actually performed the way they did.

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We don't know where their skills are, where their strengths lie.

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We don't know what the weaknesses or what the problem is if they don't perform well.

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We don't know if they're just a really excellent guesser.

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And we don't know if they were just hitting in random answers and happened to do it well

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enough to score at a certain level.

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We really have very little understanding of what makes an answer right or wrong.

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And a lot of that can come from the student, a lot of that can come from the environment,

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and a lot of that can come from how the computer program was coded.

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When you create an assessment on a computer, you have to put in the problem and you have

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to put in the acceptable correct answer.

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There's a lot of times in math when we round to a near whole number, we round to the nearest

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tenth or hundredth, and we don't know if the computer was programmed to only round to the

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whole number or if it was coded to take answers that were rounded to the tenth or hundredth.

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We don't know if there's any leeway in acceptable answers.

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And that's a problem.

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If something is valid and reliable, it doesn't need to be hidden.

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You can tell people exactly what's going on.

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You can code four answers that are one digit above or below for an estimating problem,

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and you can even note that.

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Do adaptive tests do that?

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I have no idea because it's very difficult to find out this kind of information, at least

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from the places I've looked.

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As I said, if you happen to be in the world of adaptive testing and you have some more

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information, please send in my way and I will be happy to share something from the horse's

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mouth, get it directly from the source, and put that information out there.

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But when we don't have information, that does not build trust.

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That does not build validity or reliability if you're hiding something.

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And that is a real big problem that's been prevalent in math assessments, especially

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for quite a number of years, especially with state testing, those end-of-course exams,

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state-based tests at the end of the year, and now with adaptive testing, I'm very concerned

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about how this might play out in the world of college level placement tests.

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And that problem is that teachers are not supposed to glance at an EOC or a state assessment.

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Students take that.

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Teachers are not supposed to know what's on there, not supposed to look at it at all.

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That's ridiculous.

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First of all, I find it insulting for educators.

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We are trained professionals.

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This is a career choice.

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This is not something we do on Tuesdays.

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This is something that we have higher level degrees in and a number of years of training

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and we know what we're doing.

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And also in the world of math, it's just math.

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There should not be any reason to hide an assessment from a teacher.

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Teachers should know exactly what their students are going to be expected to do and how they

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will be asked to do it because there are very complex differences in a word problem, in

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presentation, in understanding what is expected and what's the best way to solve a problem.

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Adaptive testing, especially when you can only see one question at a time, especially

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when there are no multiple-choice answers, multiple-choice answers do make things easier

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than a fill-in test.

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And I'm quite sure that's why adaptive tests and other assessments are written that way.

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However, multiple-choice answers also trigger memory.

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They help people think about their potential answers, the potential problem-solving skills

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they might need, and then they can determine what is best for a given situation.

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So not only are we taking away from student guessing, I get that we don't want students

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to guess.

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I think it's a little ridiculous because we all guess and estimate all the time.

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The human brain likes to ask questions, predict, and then confirm.

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This is how our minds work.

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So there's no reason why our assessments shouldn't work in the same way.

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Also, putting students in a situation where they have a few answer-choice options can

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help them think about, okay, how could they get this answer?

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This one they were adding.

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This one they didn't combine like terms properly.

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This one is close, but the decimal points are all in different places.

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I need to focus on the decimal point.

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So these are guidelines.

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The same as using a map, the same as having a sign on a highway that tells you what exits

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are coming up next.

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It gives you a frame of reference.

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And I don't see why that's something we should remove from K-12 students.

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I don't see how that makes your understanding of math any stronger or any weaker if you

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prefer to have some guidelines to make sure you're going down the right path.

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So that's another problem I have with adaptive testing and only fill in the blank testings

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that are removing multiple-choice answers.

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So in general, I have a lot of concerns about what's happening in the world of assessments.

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And this is a problem because so many colleges and universities use SAT test scores for acceptance.

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They use these placement tests to decide what kind of course a student should take.

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We're using a lot more online only math courses in higher ed.

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And we just don't know what's really going on with our students when we do this.

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It's almost like a weird personification, putting these human abilities onto a computer.

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That is just not where we're at, folks.

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Even if the AI tools made the most amazing adaptive testing situation in the world, until

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you talk to a student, until you get to know a person as a human being, you're not going

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to know exactly what happened to make them get a right or a wrong answer.

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I'm a big fan of technology.

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I do have online math courses for students.

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It's not like I'm a Luddite, but I am saying let's make sure that our assessments truly

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align with the instruction, which is kind of the point of an assessment.

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It's not to find out whether or not you know how to cook an egg.

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It's designed to find out whether or not the course you took taught you how to properly

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make a souffle versus how to properly make a fried egg sandwich.

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And can you interpret when you should be doing which one based on what someone orders

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at a restaurant to use a restaurant analogy?

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These are complex questions of assessments, but they're mostly complex because we take

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so much of the humanity out of math assessments.

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That's really a problem.

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At the end of the day, we want students to feel comfortable with numeracy, comfortable

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with numbers, and comfortable working with formulas.

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We really want to strengthen pattern recognition and problem solving.

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So let's focus on making those things happen, and I don't see how adaptive testing is anywhere

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in the same ballpark as any of those goals that I just mentioned.

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Now I'm sure other people have their own opinion, and like I said, if you have some research

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or some facts and figures to back it up, then I would love to have that conversation.

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If you do, you can email me, Honora, at educalclearning.com or Honora at thedtri.org.

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If you are interested in this conversation, let's talk about it some more.

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You can talk about it with me, with your colleagues, with teachers at school.

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I would love if you had this conversation with your local school board members and with

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your state representatives and your State Department of Education.

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These are really important questions for us to answer.

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We do have problems with math awareness and math proficiency, and honestly we can fix

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them pretty easily because it's just math.

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And all humans are hardwired to understand math, even those who have dyscalculia.

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All people are hardwired to be able to see, and some of us need to wear eyeglasses, and

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some of us have more extreme vision problems, and we can still use the right tools to have

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a full, rich, involved life.

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That is the dyscalculia piece in this whole conversation.

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We need to understand that some people have a different approach to math understanding

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and math proficiency.

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Different doesn't always mean worse.

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It doesn't our present school system, but it doesn't have to.

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Anyway, I got a little off topic there at the end, but adaptive testing personally for

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me that is a no-go, and I really would like us to have more conversations about creating

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appropriate math assessments for the people taking the math assessment.

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Not something that looks really good to the people in the company creating the math program.

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This is Dr. Honora Wall, and I thank you for listening to the What in the World is Dyscalculia

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podcast, and I hope that you get more involved in a rich conversation about math instruction,

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math proficiency, and math assessment.

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It's important.

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Thanks for listening.

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I will talk with you again soon.