1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 Hello and welcome to another episode of What in the World is Dyscalculia. 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:12,000 This podcast is all about the math learning disorder and I am your host, Dr. Honora Wall. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:17,000 And the podcast is presented by Educalc Learning. 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,000 You can learn more about Dyscalculia, become a certified Dyscalculia specialist, 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:29,000 or get some courses as an educator, a parent, or a person, especially students with Dyscalculia. 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:34,000 At www.educalclearning.com. 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:45,000 You can also visit the Dyscalculia Training and Research Institute at www.thedtri.org. 8 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:53,000 And that is a great place. It's a 501c3 and there's a lot of free information about Dyscalculia. 9 00:00:53,000 --> 00:01:05,000 It's always growing. We're doing some really interesting talks with a couple of different states about how their departments of Ed might address Dyscalculia awareness. 10 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:18,000 And we've got our finishing touches being put on a free training course for educators about how to write a great IEP for students with Dyscalculia. 11 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:26,000 So we'll be sure to mention that when it is live and available for you, but should not be long. 12 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,000 Today I want to talk about something that is really a personal issue for me, 13 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:39,000 something that one of the many soap boxes I tend to stand on when I'm talking about math education. 14 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:46,000 And this one definitely impacts people with Dyscalculia, but it's also part of a larger conversation. 15 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:56,000 So what am I talking about? I'm talking about when we push too much higher level math content into elementary grades. 16 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:03,000 And it's just mismatch we have going on of math topics in different classes. 17 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:09,000 And this has come up with a few of my students recently. So this might not be the first time I talk about it. 18 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,000 But I'm going to try to stick to the first thing that is on my mind today. 19 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:25,000 And that is having too many algebraic concepts pushed into elementary math curriculum. 20 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:35,000 And I'm going to tell you why. I'm working right now with a homeschool student who has high functioning autism and Dyscalculia and has been homeschooled. 21 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:41,000 And now he is at the age to graduate high school and we're finishing up his math. 22 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,000 Unfortunately, I just recently started working with this student. 23 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:50,000 So we do have a lot we're trying to put into a short amount of time. 24 00:02:50,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Thank goodness he's exceptionally bright, very fast processing speed, good working memory skills, and we're able to progress really quickly. 25 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:08,000 But because I did not work with him earlier, we have a lot of foundational gaps that we're addressing. 26 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:20,000 Partly to make sure we're meeting high school graduation requirements, getting him ready for college admissions and placement tests, but also because he really wants to understand math. 27 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,000 He wants to be good with numbers and numeracy. 28 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:29,000 And our first few sessions were very productive and very successful. 29 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,000 So now he really wants to go back and learn all that he can. 30 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:39,000 So we were talking recently about simplifying fractions. 31 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:47,000 This was a brand new concept for him just with the homeschool program that he was going through and with his Dyscalculia. 32 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,000 Of course, the family had a hard time finding good materials or curriculum to help. 33 00:03:52,000 --> 00:04:02,000 If you're having that problem today, you should go to educalclearning.com and see what we have available and our expanding product line for homeschool families. 34 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:09,000 But when I worked with older students, they didn't have that, and that's the case with this particular student. 35 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,000 So fractions are brand new. 36 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:16,000 We've been working on multiplying and dividing fractions, not a problem. 37 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,000 Adding and subtracting with like denominators, not a problem, doing great. 38 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:29,000 And before we get into unlike denominators, which is probably the worst thing we ever do in all of math, 39 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:34,000 we're pausing and talking about simplifying fractions. 40 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,000 And we're using a multiplication list. 41 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:43,000 We're talking about some divisibility rules to have an idea of how you might simplify a fraction. 42 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,000 Hopefully everyone is still listening. 43 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:52,000 No one has turned off the podcast crying because of the traumatic memories of simplifying fractions. 44 00:04:52,000 --> 00:05:00,000 I had those as well, so I feel for you, but stick with me. I'm not going to make you simplify fractions in this podcast. 45 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:13,000 But while I was working with this student and explaining how simplifying fractions work and also how do you know whether or not you can simplify a fraction? 46 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,000 How do you know what number to use? 47 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Where do you start? 48 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:23,000 These are all frustrating questions for a lot of students and to my advice to him, I said, 49 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,000 let's I want you to try to think of this as kind of a game. 50 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,000 Every question you're going to look at the fraction and say, well, what do I have here? 51 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,000 What do I think I might do? 52 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,000 And try just give it a shot. 53 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:41,000 If both numbers will divide by the same number, great. Use that. 54 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:46,000 If they don't, well, you know, you kind of hit a dead end back up, try something else. 55 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:53,000 If nothing works, hey, maybe it's already in simplest form and you're just going to give it a shot. 56 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,000 This is the essence of problem solving. 57 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,000 You're going to try it and you're going to see what happens. 58 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,000 And this is truly in a perfect world. 59 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,000 The essence of math instruction, especially in the elementary. 60 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:14,000 And I know none of us have this experience in the real world, which is why I'm so frustrated. 61 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:23,000 And I want to talk about this in a perfect world in my opinion, in my opinion, plus $5 will get you a small coffee. 62 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,000 But here it is. 63 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:40,000 We really should be spending that elementary time playing with the multiplication list, playing with division and playing with these fractions and decimals and using that problem solving, 64 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:49,000 not as a trending key term that we throw around, but as something where we actually put students in a place of, hey, here's a problem. 65 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,000 We got a lot of different things we could do. 66 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,000 Let's check them out. 67 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,000 Let's see which ones work. 68 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,000 Let's see which ones don't. 69 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:04,000 And over time, we're going to see if we see any patterns emerging and we can talk about those. 70 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:12,000 On the other hand, here's what usually happens in a typical elementary math experience. 71 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,000 We have a lesson on multiplication. 72 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,000 It's really fast. 73 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,000 You got to memorize it. 74 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,000 If not too bad for you. 75 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,000 Then we have a lesson on division. 76 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,000 There's a lot of facts you got to memorize them. 77 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,000 And if you don't, that's just too bad for you. 78 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,000 You should probably try harder. 79 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,000 Here's some flashcards. 80 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,000 Now we're going to roll right into fractions. 81 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,000 Fractions are very complex. 82 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,000 So hopefully you can keep up because I'm talking fast. 83 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,000 I got to show you all these fractions. 84 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,000 There's a lot to learn. 85 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,000 A whole bunch of different rules. 86 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,000 You wrote them down yesterday. 87 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000 I don't know why you don't remember them today. 88 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,000 Oh, and now we're going to simplify. 89 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,000 How do you know when to simplify? 90 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,000 Well, you could memorize all the divisibility rules in the world. 91 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,000 See if they apply. 92 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,000 Better be using those basic facts that you memorized. 93 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,000 And I can't believe you didn't get this done. 94 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,000 You failed another test. 95 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,000 What is wrong with you? 96 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,000 Why aren't you trying harder? 97 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Guys, this does not reinforce problem solving skills. 98 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:09,000 This is not the method to make students engaged in a math class. 99 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:15,000 This is not the way to expand on our natural abilities as mathematicians. 100 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,000 Because we're all mathematicians until we go to school. 101 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:24,000 The methods we're using are not getting us to our end goal. 102 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,000 If they did, our math proficiency scores would be through the roof. 103 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,000 They'd certainly be higher than they are today. 104 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,000 Which in most states is way down near the bottom of the barrel. 105 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:40,000 Especially for students with learning disabilities. 106 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,000 So what we're doing with students is putting them in a system where we are really setting them up for failure. 107 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:51,000 We have bizarre expectations of memory and how that works. 108 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:56,000 We have these work sheets and problems that don't make a lot of sense. 109 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,000 And then we chastise children for being wrong. 110 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:05,000 Rather than reinforcing, hey, I like the way you gave that a shot. 111 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,000 That one didn't work. Let's back up and try something else. 112 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:15,000 Because this idea that math problems are problems to be solved. 113 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,000 Issues to be explored. 114 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:22,000 Things that you try and you see what actually works and then you know what to stick with. 115 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,000 That is the real basis of algebraic thinking. 116 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,000 When we're given problems with variables, when we have to solve equations, 117 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:38,000 when we're talking about the zeros of a function, that is an exploration. 118 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:46,000 And we need to start fostering that explanation and exploration and techniques of giving things a try 119 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,000 and seeing how it works out. 120 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:55,000 That scientific interpretation and crossover between math and science. 121 00:09:55,000 --> 00:10:00,000 Making a hypothesis. Doing an experiment. Seeing what your results are. 122 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:07,000 That is really something that I feel is missing in most math classrooms, especially at the elementary level. 123 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:14,000 One of the reasons why it's missing is because we don't have time to do that. 124 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,000 We cannot rest in the world of actual problem solving. 125 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:27,000 Because we have to get to all of these other standards and topics and we have to hit all of these different things that really can come up later. 126 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:37,000 Of course elementary students are capable of understanding that equations and problems have unknown elements that can be solved for. 127 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,000 Sure. 128 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:46,000 That is why we have pre-algebra. Algebra 1 and Algebra 2. Because that's where those equations need to be. 129 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:55,000 They don't need to be showing up in 5th grade. They don't need to be showing up as the equation with the apple for the missing add-end. 130 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,000 And we have to solve it in 2nd and 3rd grade. 131 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:07,000 Because when we do that, we ignore or rush through the numeracy. 132 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:13,000 The exploration. The idea that you're not making a mistake in math. You're trying something else. 133 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,000 And you're going to try things until they work. 134 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:25,000 Aha! This is how this works. These are my right tools. Now I'm building out a toolbox for my future success. 135 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:35,000 There's been a lot of talk for many, many, many years about American math education being that inch deep and mile wide. 136 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:41,000 I don't know why we keep talking about it if we have no intention of fixing it. But that's a soapbox for another day. 137 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,000 But it really does create a lot of long-term problems in mathematical thinking. 138 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:53,000 And it definitely takes the joy out of math instruction and a math class. 139 00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:03,000 It also creates an identification piece where the student is either a good student who is good at math or there are failure who doesn't get it. 140 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,000 That's not what math is about. That's not what problem solving is. 141 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:12,000 And then we get very surprised that students don't want to go into STEM fields. 142 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:17,000 That they're not taking more challenging upper level math classes in high school and college. 143 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:23,000 We don't know why they don't focus on careers that include STEM classes. 144 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:33,000 I don't think we can really be surprised when the crop we grow is tied directly to the seeds we planted. 145 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:42,000 So what does this mean for you? If you are an educator, if you are a policymaker, that would be great. Help change some of this policy. 146 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:48,000 If you're a curriculum provider, change the way you're writing some of this curriculum. 147 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:53,000 We don't have to keep following this track. We know it doesn't work. 148 00:12:53,000 --> 00:13:00,000 We can look at national math scores, state math scores, our district. We can look at our individual students. 149 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,000 And we know we're doing something wrong. 150 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:10,000 If you're a person with dyscalculia or any other learning challenge that's kept math success away from you, 151 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:15,000 understand that quite a bit of it could be the system that you're in. 152 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,000 So don't stop trying to get some more help for yourself. 153 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:28,000 If you are an elementary teacher or interventionist or a paraeducator or a homeschool parent, 154 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:35,000 please put in more gameplay, more explorative discussion. 155 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:41,000 Spend more time on really tough things like simplifying fractions. 156 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:48,000 Use tools like a multiplication list. Don't just put up a chart of divisibility rules and expect that chart to make sense. 157 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:54,000 Divisibility rules are very hard to understand. I should do a future podcast on that. 158 00:13:54,000 --> 00:14:00,000 But make it more of a discussion where you talk about, hey, I don't know how we're going to simplify this thing. 159 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,000 Or if we even can, let's talk about it. 160 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:11,000 Do fewer problems with more depth, not as a modified curriculum. 161 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:17,000 I'm not talking about modification. The way we use modified in education has a very specific meaning. 162 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:22,000 And students with dyscalculia do not need a modified curriculum. 163 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,000 They're perfectly capable of doing grade level work and that's what they should be doing all the time. 164 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:34,000 But in the classroom, there should be a lot more discussion, a lot more play, a lot more exploration, trying things out. 165 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:42,000 And then when we've reached mastery, we can add more homework. We can add more problems to a test. 166 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:50,000 That's one thing I'm finding with the K-12 math courses I'm making for students with dyscalculia. 167 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:57,000 We're getting great feedback from our beta groups of students and the main thing they ask for is more work. 168 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:03,000 They've asked for more work to do because the minute they get it, they want to do more. 169 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:12,000 So the way they get it is by us as the leaders of the instruction, slowing it down in the beginning, 170 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:18,000 looking at it as a game to play, problem to solve, a discussion to have. 171 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:28,000 And then our basic facts become the tools that allow us to win the game, solve the problem, complete the discussion. 172 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:35,000 Quit trying to force algebra into literally everything. Algebra has its own place. 173 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,000 I have no problem with algebra, but it has plenty of classes that should be focused on it. 174 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:51,000 It does not need to be in geometry. Trig does not need to be in algebra, geometry, algebra 2, and not have its own class. 175 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,000 Calculus does not need to be in everything under the sun. It should have its own class. 176 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:05,000 And if we had better boundaries, I think we'd have more people being successful and interested in taking these different math classes. 177 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:18,000 And these topics do not have any place in elementary math because in elementary math we're supposed to be infusing enrichment of numeracy, 178 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:28,000 of basic facts from adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing, understanding how to take things apart and put them back together in a mathematical sense. 179 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:37,000 We're supposed to be fostering problem solving, which does not include failure. It includes exploration. 180 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:50,000 When we get that piece handled, then we're going to see a lot more people interested and successful in higher level math when it is appropriate for them to take it. 181 00:16:50,000 --> 00:17:00,000 I think that we will also see a real increase in proficiency scores and we will definitely see an increase in math achievement, especially for people with dyscalculia. 182 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:09,000 They will truly be able to reach their full potential when we address the system they learn in. 183 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:22,000 Well, thank you very much for listening to my rant about having better boundaries in elementary school math, protecting the numeracy aspects of elementary math, 184 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:33,000 and encouraging a real problem solving and game taking approach to learning math so that we have a foundation for later. 185 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:41,000 I'm Honora Wall and I am happy to have had you with me on this podcast for What in the World is Dyscalculia? 186 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:47,000 If you have any other questions, comments, or concerns, you can find me on TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn. 187 00:17:47,000 --> 00:18:00,000 We have a teacher's support group on Facebook and you can email me Honora at educalclearning.com, Honora at thedtri.org, 188 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,000 or visit our websites for more information. We'll talk again soon.