1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,680 Hello everyone and welcome to What in the World is Dyscalculia, the podcast that is 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:12,000 all about the math learning disability. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:19,640 This podcast is produced and presented by Educalc Learning and I am your host, Dr. Honora 4 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:20,960 Wall. 5 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:25,480 You can find out more about today's topics or anything else related to Dyscalculia at 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:37,240 EducalcLearning.com or visit our non-profit organization www.thedtri.org. 7 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:44,640 Dyscalculia Training and Research Institute and I am looking forward to having more information 8 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,440 about that non-profit for you pretty soon. 9 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:53,160 We are working on a project right now for increasing awareness and getting some informational 10 00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:59,280 brochures into the hands of school counselors so that there is some information you can 11 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:06,120 hand out directly to parents, students and teachers who are curious about the math learning 12 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:07,120 disability. 13 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:14,360 I am glad that you are with me today on this podcast episode. 14 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:21,080 I wanted to share with you a story that happened at a recent conference I was speaking at. 15 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:29,160 I was having a great time at this conference and sometimes you get an unexpected benefit 16 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,720 when you are presenting at a conference and that is exactly what happened to me. 17 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:42,840 I was presenting on an introductory, what is Dyscalculia, for teachers in Iowa. 18 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:48,520 As part of the conversation one of the teachers in the room was asking about using a calculator 19 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:55,200 and they said to me, well you said that Dyscalculia makes people forget steps and it is hard to 20 00:01:55,200 --> 00:02:00,240 follow procedures and yet you are telling us to use the calculator but that is going 21 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,440 to be steps and procedures. 22 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:10,400 I said, well now I do want you using the calculator because it is going to be beneficial in saving 23 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:17,200 time, reinforcing the right answer, letting students focus on the concept or the vocabulary 24 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,320 without worrying about those basic facts. 25 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,200 Long story short the person in the audience and I were not hearing each other for a few 26 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:26,200 minutes. 27 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:34,000 I will save you the back and forth but it was a little comical because I was obviously 28 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,840 not answering the question. 29 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,040 He was asking, it took us a few minutes to figure out the question. 30 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:47,040 At one point he said, I am sorry to push on this, I really want this to work for my students. 31 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,600 I said, listen push away. 32 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:55,880 The only way that a presenter on any topic is going to give you what you need as the 33 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,240 attendee is if you ask those questions and push. 34 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:10,040 And also by having the attendee push it helps me understand what teachers need and how to 35 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,240 explain in the best way possible. 36 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:15,800 That is really the name of the game. 37 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:22,440 The more we get teachers on board with understanding exactly what dyscalculia is, what it does 38 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,960 and how to support students, the faster we are going to have a lot of students succeed 39 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,720 really quickly in all classrooms. 40 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,040 And that is the passion that drives my work. 41 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,280 So back to my presentation story. 42 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,520 After a few minutes of this back and forth we finally figured out what the issue was 43 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,440 with this conversation. 44 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:52,280 The teacher who I was speaking with teaches a pre-calc class in high school. 45 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:57,000 Now students with dyscalculia do great in higher level math classes. 46 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:04,040 It is much easier than elementary school math for a number of different reasons. 47 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:11,520 But mostly high school math does not bother with the dyscalculia trifecta, time, money, 48 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,720 and place value. 49 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:23,120 So we don't ever multiply 3 and 4 digit decimals times 3 and 4 digit decimals in upper level 50 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:24,640 math and science classes. 51 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,360 We deal with much smaller, easier to work with numbers. 52 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:35,720 But in this pre-calc class the teacher was worried about having students use the fraction 53 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:41,480 to decimal and decimal to fraction button on their calculator. 54 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:48,120 Now that button if you are using a higher level, more expensive, fancier calculator, 55 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:54,120 it will convert between fractions or decimals or fractions and mixed numbers. 56 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,160 Sometimes they have that button as well. 57 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:04,320 And there are a lot of steps involved as we use those fancier buttons. 58 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:09,200 So in that situation absolutely this could cause a problem for a student with dyscalcullia because there are so many different buttons to push and what order do you push 60 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,360 them and how do you remember. 61 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:22,960 So once we got that figured out where I knew exactly what button he was talking about and 62 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:30,040 the content he was concerned with, manipulating fractions and decimals and showing things 63 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,680 in different ways, I said oh okay now I get it. 64 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:40,400 I agree having to use the second and then this and then the number and then that and 65 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,520 a bunch of different buttons, that can be a lot. 66 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:53,440 I prefer and I suggest that instead you simply teach students that any fraction represents 67 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:54,840 division. 68 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:58,560 Top number divided by bottom number. 69 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:04,800 I don't care if it's 12 over 2, you can put 12 divided by 2 in the calculator. 70 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:12,720 If it's 2 over 12, you would put 2 divided by 12 into the calculator. 71 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,480 And there's a few reasons why this is so important. 72 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:26,080 The first reason is that order in division and subtraction is super important. 73 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,520 Division is not commutative the way addition and multiplication is. 74 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,360 You can add and multiply in any order you want. 75 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,400 It will never change your answer. 76 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,400 But in subtraction and division that is absolutely not the case. 77 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,480 It will completely give you the wrong answer. 78 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,800 That is actually an issue that students who do not have dyscalculia, who just have low 79 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,600 numeracy or who have no math struggles at all, find is a stumbling block. 80 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:58,280 They'll look at a problem and we drill this idea that mental math is the be all end all 81 00:06:58,280 --> 00:06:59,720 of everything. 82 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:05,120 The eye sees a 12 and a 2 and the mind could care less what the order is in. 83 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,120 It will just spit out oh it's 6. 84 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:13,480 Well if you had 12 over 2 that would divide to 6. 85 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,860 But if you have 2 over 12 it absolutely will not. 86 00:07:16,860 --> 00:07:25,320 You would either simplify that fraction to 1 over 6 or you would have a decimal if you 87 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,480 were doing the long division. 88 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:35,320 So practicing top number divided by bottom number helps students understand that order 89 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,960 is incredibly specific and important in division. 90 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:40,600 So that's number one. 91 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:47,080 It really reinforces the commutative property when we can and cannot use it. 92 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:53,760 Number two, if the only thing we're ever telling students is top number divided by bottom number, 93 00:07:53,760 --> 00:08:00,480 now they have a skill set they can use on any calculator from the four button basic one 94 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:08,000 to the TI 30XA which is my personal favorite to the very fancy high end super expensive 95 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,000 calculators. 96 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:16,360 Hey if it's a fraction and you need a decimal or a final answer top number divided by bottom 97 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:17,880 number. 98 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,920 That's very easy. 99 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,680 The steps are always the same. 100 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,520 Doesn't matter what the fraction is. 101 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,640 That helps students feel mastery and consistency. 102 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:32,880 That feeling of consistency and knowing what to do every single time is missing quite a 103 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:40,160 bit for students who have dyscalculia and low numeracy and any sort of background issues 104 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,640 that have gotten in the way of them building a strong math foundation. 105 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:50,760 Whenever you can build consistency in the steps then the student can build on their mastery. 106 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,360 So that's the second reason why it's very important. 107 00:08:55,360 --> 00:09:01,000 And then my third reason for why this is such an important skill is that it's very clear 108 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,480 and direct. 109 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,400 You don't have to worry so much about a student forgetting the steps because top divided by 110 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:13,640 bottom and if they do that from fourth grade through college algebra then they never have 111 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,640 to learn a different way depending on the different calculators. 112 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:23,000 Now some students of course especially if you're doing the right interventions and accommodations 113 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,040 at an early age in fourth and fifth grade then by the time they get to high school if 114 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:34,920 they've had consistent proper instruction for dyscalculia then they'll be ready to look 115 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,560 at some of these different buttons on the calculator. 116 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:42,720 And certainly there are times especially if we're finding the cubed root or higher than 117 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:49,120 a cubed root of a number where we really need those second function buttons. 118 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:55,400 And if we're doing statistics and we're using some of the fancier Texas instruments or other 119 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,760 calculators there's plenty out there. 120 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,640 The more impressive they are and the more expensive they are the more confusing they 121 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,080 can be. 122 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:09,080 So we need to spend time with our students figuring out their comfort level their strengths 123 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,840 and weaknesses showing them exactly what to do on the calculator. 124 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:20,680 If there are multiple steps especially in higher level math I would have them write those steps 125 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:25,520 down and they have those steps with them with or without a worked example but at least the 126 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:32,240 same notes when they're taking their assessments formative summative quizzes tests whatever it 127 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:39,720 is let them have that reminder in this situation I follow these steps in that situation I follow 128 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:46,000 the other steps they know they have multiple situations of math problems and they know they 129 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,480 have multiple steps they could choose from. 130 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:55,760 The issue for a lot of students is how do you match the right steps to the particular 131 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:03,440 problem and feeling that lack of certainty undermines the whole thing it really knocks 132 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,120 down the whole house of cards. 133 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,120 So if we want students to show what they know then we're just going to help them make sure 134 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,880 they've got the right tool. 135 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,960 And as adults we do this for ourselves all the time and for each other if you've ever 136 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:23,120 put together a piece of furniture from any store that you bought furniture in a box from 137 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:29,400 it comes with a set of directions with some pictures and the name and exactly where you 138 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,280 use that tool. 139 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:37,160 Even if you have put together a million dining room table sets you are still going to get 140 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:44,120 the instructions in the box and they're going to very clearly label the different screws 141 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:49,680 the different nuts and bolts the allen wrench anything else that's included. 142 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:54,160 Now for me putting together the furniture is still hard no matter how many times I do 143 00:11:54,160 --> 00:12:01,080 it just not my skill set not my favorite thing to do but I certainly expect that I'm going 144 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,720 to have those instructions in the box. 145 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,520 So when we talk about these accommodations and interventions for students it's not anything 146 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,000 we're not doing for ourselves as adults. 147 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:18,320 So let's make sure to give students the right support and then they can work to mastery. 148 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,400 And then if you are having a conversation with your students or if you're presenting 149 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,640 and you're talking with an attendee in the audience and you find that you're just not 150 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,080 really getting where you need to be. 151 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:36,280 You're not understanding each other and understanding what the person is asking. 152 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:41,000 Make sure you step back and ask them some better questions. 153 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:47,680 I could have saved a ton of time and effort and probably aggravation on this poor attendees 154 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:53,040 part if I had simply said in the beginning tell me what topic you're using that calculator 155 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:59,760 for and exactly which buttons you're talking about so I know what we're dealing with. 156 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:05,320 Then I could have had an answer that would have been appropriate right away but instead 157 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:11,520 I was explaining my point and that point did not answer the person's question. 158 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:19,960 So remember as educators, trainers, parents we need to tweak our questions and we can 159 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,280 get where we need to be faster. 160 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:27,360 If you're the student or the parent or if you're a teacher talking to a presenter in 161 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:33,240 a conference and you're not getting the answer you want keep asking, keep working on it. 162 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,000 Keep saying I'm not sure if I'm asking this the right way. 163 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,760 Let me show you or let me give you an example and keep going until you find some common ground 164 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:47,320 you get that right answer that you need. 165 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:53,920 Sharing information is the way we all get to success and that's exactly what I hope 166 00:13:53,920 --> 00:14:01,720 you get out of these podcast episodes is a way to be successful as a teacher, as an interventionist, 167 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:06,120 as a tutor and as a student of any age. 168 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,560 If you're an adult with dyscalculia and you've been trying to get support for a long time 169 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:12,960 and it's not working don't give up. 170 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:18,520 You just haven't met the right person yet who understands your needs and can give you 171 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,600 the right support. 172 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:26,960 But there is a way for all of us to get to the hallowed land of math success even for 173 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,680 people with dyscalculia and I promise it's not that hard and the success once you get 174 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,400 it right comes fast and easy and it stays that way. 175 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:41,400 I'm very excited that my students who I've worked with and the ones I'm working with 176 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,800 now find success in math and upper level science pretty quickly and they stay there because 177 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,040 accommodations work and interventions work. 178 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,880 And if you are using a calculator keep it simple. 179 00:14:54,880 --> 00:15:00,360 Keep your steps minimal and make sure that you work with students to use the simplest 180 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,840 explanation is almost always best. 181 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:10,960 If you have any questions or comments push through the email, push through comments on 182 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,480 our Facebook page, find us on LinkedIn, go to the website and email me directly from 183 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:17,480 there. 184 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:23,080 I would love to delve into your specific questions and comments and you can find more information 185 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,960 on educalclearning.com. 186 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,400 This is Dr. Honora Wall. 187 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,440 Thank you for listening to the What in the World is Dyscalculia podcast presented by 188 00:15:33,440 --> 00:16:02,400 Educalc Learning and I look forward to seeing you again soon.