1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,700
Hello and welcome back to the latest edition of What in the World is Dyscalculia?

2
00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:17,920
This is Dr. Honora Wall and the podcast is hosted by me and presented by EducalcLearning.

3
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:25,280
At Educalc Learning we create training for teachers and parents, interventionists, and administrators

4
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:30,640
to better understand the math learning disability, dyscalculia.

5
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:38,200
We also have a series of books addressing the needs of neurodiverse students and we

6
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:45,200
are putting the finishing touches on the first round of online math courses for K-12 students

7
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:55,520
or adults with dyscalculia who want to finally master math.

8
00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:01,240
I also have a non-profit organization, the Dyscalculia Training and Research Institute.

9
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:14,680
That website is www.thedtri.org and that non-profit is focused on research and getting information

10
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:22,640
to school districts and psychologists and families about this math learning disability.

11
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:29,200
In today's podcast I want to take another look at a leading researcher and discuss their

12
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,280
findings about this issue.

13
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:38,560
I'm recording today's podcast from the University of Victoria in British Columbia.

14
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:46,440
I'm here for a conference of teacher educators and it's a great organization, fantastic campus,

15
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,240
I'm having a really good time.

16
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:55,400
But on my ferry over from Seattle to Victoria I was so excited to stand out on the back

17
00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:02,160
deck of the Clipper Ferry and take in the sights and sounds at my first time being in

18
00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:07,120
Canada and loved the experience but it was freezing outside.

19
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,520
So standing on the back deck before recording a podcast might not have been my smartest

20
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,520
choice.

21
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:21,280
Hopefully my voice is not too scratchy and we can get all this information to you today.

22
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:22,680
Let's dive in.

23
00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:29,080
So the article I want to talk about today was published in Science Magazine and I'm sure

24
00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,080
a few other places.

25
00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:39,720
I got the link from ScienceMag.com and I'm going to put the full PDF on the DTRI.org

26
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,400
blog so you can read this information for yourself.

27
00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:52,600
This article was titled Dyscalculia from Brain to Education and it was written by Brian Butterworth,

28
00:02:52,600 --> 00:03:01,680
one of the all-star researchers in this field, Sacha Varma and Diana Laurillard who also

29
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,360
both do a lot of research in dyscalculia.

30
00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:12,040
And the basic premise that these researchers take in their work is that there is a core

31
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,200
deficit underlying dyscalculia.

32
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,800
The same way there's a core deficit underlying dyslexia.

33
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:28,640
I don't know if anyone has looked into enough of the reasons behind dysgraphia or dyspraxia

34
00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:33,200
to see if they also feel there's a core deficit or not.

35
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,000
Other researchers take a different approach, use a different lens and we'll talk about

36
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,800
those in other podcasts.

37
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:46,520
But for Butterworth and his work, he's looking at a core deficit.

38
00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,440
So what in the world does that mean?

39
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,520
Core meaning there's one thing we can look for and then if we can find it, we can learn

40
00:03:54,520 --> 00:04:01,840
how to screen for it, recognize it and address it in the most effective way.

41
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:08,200
Deficit meaning something that is making a person not be as strong in math as we would

42
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:09,700
think.

43
00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:15,640
Not deficit as a problem or as an issue.

44
00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,360
I want to watch the wording there.

45
00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,680
As you know, we are changing the vocabulary.

46
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:24,520
We're stopping a conversation that involves shame or embarrassment for people with learning

47
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,240
differences and that is certainly not at all what these researchers are going with at

48
00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:29,240
all.

49
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:36,080
They're using a very specific form of vocabulary for their research and that's different

50
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,480
than just generic terms.

51
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,720
Okay, so what in the world did they say in this article?

52
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,600
What are we going on and on about?

53
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:55,760
Well, they definitely talk about dyscalculia having that single core issue in learning

54
00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,760
math.

55
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,880
They mentioned how dyscalculia could be highly selective and you can find it usually with

56
00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:09,000
people who have normal to above average intelligence, normal working memory.

57
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:15,080
Sometimes you can have issues with visual spatial skills, but a lot of times people who have

58
00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:22,160
dyscalculia are very good at geometry or they're very good at using a statistics program or

59
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,400
other kinds of computer programs.

60
00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:31,160
If we can get past the fear of numbers and the fear of that public failure and embarrassment,

61
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:36,280
then we can use things like Excel programs and we can use a calculator to get the work

62
00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:42,200
done faster and handle the numbers part while we handle the problem solving part.

63
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:50,120
That's a really strong area of success for people with dyscalculia.

64
00:05:50,120 --> 00:06:00,320
The problem many people run into is that their K-12 math experiences were so negative and

65
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:06,280
their experiences with family members and friends are so negative that they hesitate

66
00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:12,880
to use these other programs or do anything that involves math or numbers because they've

67
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,560
gotten such negative feedback from people.

68
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,680
Make sure you are not passing on those negative conversations.

69
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:26,960
If you are a teacher, a parent, or a spouse, be more supportive and understand what your

70
00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,160
loved one is going through.

71
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:37,840
So a really interesting piece from this article and I'm going to quote here.

72
00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:39,400
This is a direct quote.

73
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:46,560
These findings imply that arithmetical learning is at least partly based on a cognitive system

74
00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:57,400
that is distinct from those underpinning scholastic attainment more generally.

75
00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:58,400
Cognitive system.

76
00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,300
This is involved in the brain.

77
00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:02,920
It's not involved in how many times you use flashcards.

78
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,400
It's not involved in how many times you gave that same time test.

79
00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,000
Please stop doing that.

80
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:14,280
It's not involved with how many times the student paid attention or worked hard or practiced

81
00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:15,280
at home.

82
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,520
That's not what we're talking about for students with dyscalculia.

83
00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:28,440
And this is very different and outside of the scope of the systems that underline generic

84
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,640
scholastic success.

85
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:37,680
Again, so we can see success in other areas of education.

86
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:44,800
And our traditional methods of teaching and practicing and learning and recalling are

87
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,680
not going to apply to this group.

88
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:54,440
The same way we can have a conversation about how great cardio is for heart health and how

89
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,000
running is a really great method of increasing your cardio.

90
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:04,680
And we can talk about all of the things that make someone a strong runner.

91
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,800
That's not going to help people who are using a wheelchair.

92
00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,240
People who are using leg braces.

93
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:18,680
People who are temporarily or permanently having hip issues or knee issues or shin splints.

94
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,120
Now we have different considerations.

95
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:26,440
So we're not going to talk about how to become a faster, better, stronger runner.

96
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:31,800
We're going to talk about other ways to reach that cardiovascular health.

97
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:38,640
So that's really kind of the conversation we need to shift in the world of education.

98
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:45,560
Another key finding from this article is where the researchers talk about how dyscalculia

99
00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:51,200
can be a distinct deficit coming from the impairment of mental and neural representation

100
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,560
of finger counting.

101
00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:59,920
And this goes on to the coding aspect that some other researchers look into.

102
00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:02,600
So it's not like these fields are one or the other.

103
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,760
It's not like the lens or the approach is totally different.

104
00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,360
There's a lot of overlap in our understanding.

105
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,000
And as I always say, we need a lot more understanding.

106
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,200
So if you're a researcher, get involved in this field.

107
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:23,080
Okay, what we mean when we're talking about mental and neural is the way we think about

108
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:30,880
and the way we code in our brain and the way we understand counting and numbers.

109
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,720
And we start that through our fingers.

110
00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:42,520
That's a lot of research in human development before the age of six or seven.

111
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:48,280
And really very, very early we can see when extremely young children, early childhood

112
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:58,000
development, we can see when babies and infants are recognizing that they are counting, that

113
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,720
they are separating, that they are listing, that they are grouping.

114
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:06,640
And a lot of our initial counting and adding and combining comes from finger counting,

115
00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,880
which is one of the reasons why a program like Touch Math is really good for people

116
00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,320
who are increasing their number skills.

117
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,120
And it's used a lot in interventions and coaching work.

118
00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,120
And it's something that we see in older students where they might be counting on their fingers,

119
00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:29,480
but they're trying to hide that because now they get to an age in second, third, fourth

120
00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:34,120
grade where it might be helpful for them to count on their fingers, but they don't want

121
00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,600
other people to know because they're aware that other people are not doing the same thing

122
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,160
anymore.

123
00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:46,520
So we think that one of the pieces of dyscalculia is that somewhere in that cognitive development

124
00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:56,640
there's a weakness or lack even of establishing that finger counting and numerosity, what

125
00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,440
numbers mean.

126
00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:09,680
And that can be an area of intervention that can potentially increase confidence and skills.

127
00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:15,480
Of course as we get older or outside of the intervention space when we're looking at classroom

128
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,200
activities, the pacing is just too fast.

129
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,920
We have too much we have to get done in too short a period of time and then we need to

130
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:29,160
offer students other support methods than simply finger counting.

131
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:34,360
We need to move on because they need to move on and we're pushing them and our tools need

132
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,400
to reflect that.

133
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:43,480
One interesting piece in this article and if you look at the PDF, it'll be online at

134
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,320
the dtri.org under our blog.

135
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,640
They had a great graphic that really shows the interaction of the biological, cognitive,

136
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:58,800
and behavioral processes involved in doing math.

137
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:04,080
And those biological pieces and parts that are so key for people with dyscalculia are

138
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,800
issues in the parietal lobe.

139
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:12,800
They also interact with the prefrontal cortex, with the occipitotemporal cortex.

140
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,840
I don't want to get too much into the neurology piece of it but it's fascinating if you're

141
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:24,040
interested in that and it's important, even if you're not interested in becoming an arm

142
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,320
chair neurologist, it's important to understand that we're talking about the brain and how

143
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:36,280
different parts of the brain interact and how that parietal lobe can lose information.

144
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,800
That makes all the other processes more difficult.

145
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,840
Then we have the cognitive piece.

146
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:46,600
So the biological is a little bit more like wiring and neurological connections.

147
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,720
The cognitive piece is more about the thinking and reflecting, understanding number symbols

148
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,240
and what they mean.

149
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:58,440
If you look at a written seven, what does that mean in terms of seven blocks or in terms

150
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,920
of multiplying and adding, using basic facts?

151
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:09,600
What are the principles and procedures tied to the vocabulary of an area or perimeter

152
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,280
or volume of a sphere?

153
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,600
So there's a lot of different cognitive pieces that go on.

154
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:21,240
And then at the end, we have the behavioral piece of actually completing the number task,

155
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,960
doing the arithmetic.

156
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,480
So lots of stuff going on when we're processing math.

157
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:37,680
And with dyscalculia, we're finding weaknesses in that biological space and they impact the

158
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:39,120
cognitive space.

159
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:44,160
Those two are kind of tied together with this math learning disability and they impact

160
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:49,480
our behavioral piece of getting the work done.

161
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,200
So lots of information there.

162
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,680
What does that mean for the non-researchers listing?

163
00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:01,720
Maybe you joined the podcast just because you want to understand dyscalculia and you're

164
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,040
trying to help your students.

165
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:08,960
And this was a lot of information that doesn't seem like it's going to help you this afternoon

166
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,640
getting through homework or classwork.

167
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:18,280
So here's where the information is important for parents, teachers, and administrators.

168
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:24,120
If we are going to help students with dyscalculia succeed, then we have to understand what's

169
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,120
in their way.

170
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:33,880
We cannot help people until we understand what it is that they're going through.

171
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:41,600
And this reminds me of a conversation in a thread I saw in an online math group.

172
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,640
Recently, and I won't call the people or the group out, but it's a whole bunch of math

173
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:47,640
teachers.

174
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:52,840
And the conversation was about the importance of memorization and those basic facts and

175
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,760
having that math fluency.

176
00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:02,720
And the conversation kept reverting back to the best ways to memorize.

177
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,000
And all the memorizing in the world is not going to do anyone a bit of good if their

178
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:12,560
parietal lobe takes what they memorized and basically dumps it in the trash, like an

179
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:20,920
overzealous cleaning crew that gets rid of math information that's already been learned.

180
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:30,160
So when we have a mindset that memorizing basic facts is key to math success and we

181
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:36,400
get stuck there, then we're not going to be able to help people who can memorize and

182
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,760
forget, memorize and lose information.

183
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,480
Memorize and be really close.

184
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,240
Let's see, is 7 times 6, is that 43, is it 39?

185
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,920
No, it's somewhere around there.

186
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:57,560
That kind of thinking and that kind of retrievalness taking time is not going to help build confidence

187
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,680
or fluency or the automaticity that we're looking for.

188
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:09,840
And that's why I strongly encourage you to use 1 to 100 strats, program of letting students

189
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:17,280
count on their fingers, playing games to increase the numerosity under 10.

190
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:24,520
So for example, there's some computer programs you can use that are designed to help strengthen

191
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:31,560
estimation, looking at a set of objects and figuring out how many are in the set, using

192
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:38,120
manipulatives in the classroom like the rods or the graphics.

193
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,960
See if those work for your students, if there are any visual spatial issues or if they're

194
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:50,240
just not connecting the image or the rod to numbers and place value, you're going to have

195
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:56,840
to see on a case by case basis what's working for your student and what is not.

196
00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,520
You can also play games with cards or with dice where you're trying to combine to 10.

197
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:06,000
So if you have a 3 card, does someone else have a 7?

198
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,400
All right, now you can make 10.

199
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:15,080
If one person rolls a 4, can the other person roll dice and get a 6?

200
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,160
Now you've made a 10.

201
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,000
Doing different combinations like that, but stick to those smaller numbers because we

202
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:27,080
want to strengthen the foundation and that will lend itself to doing the same kind of

203
00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,800
work with higher numbers.

204
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,240
We build a house from the foundation, not from the second floor.

205
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:40,080
But again, because the research in this area is still lighter than we need it to be, we

206
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,720
are doing a lot of trying it for ourselves.

207
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:49,920
So teachers and parents trying to help at home, keep trying different things.

208
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,600
You're going to find what works best for your student.

209
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,000
If you're an adult or a student listening and you're trying to feel better about numbers

210
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:03,600
and increase your math confidence, try a bunch of different things and keep going until you

211
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,880
find the thing that works best for you.

212
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:12,160
That's more enjoyable, that you're going to stick with it, that it's making a difference.

213
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,280
And be open to that idea.

214
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:20,360
Same way, if we go back to our heart healthy cardio analogy, the best kind of exercise

215
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:24,200
to do is the kind you're going to do regularly.

216
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,560
Because consistency is what makes a real difference.

217
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:32,600
And we're going to do the same thing in our approach to increasing math confidence and

218
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:33,720
math success.

219
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,800
We're going to find whatever is best for the individual.

220
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:42,720
And we're going to keep doing that consistently so that we can increase our mastery.

221
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:48,760
I think that's plenty enough talk for this podcast.

222
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:54,800
If you are interested in this article by doctors Butterworth, Varma and Laura Larn called

223
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,440
Dyscalculia from Brain to Education.

224
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,160
Of course you can look it up anywhere online.

225
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,160
I found it at sciencemag.com.

226
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:16,360
You can also go to the blog page on www.thedtri.org and I'll have a link to the PDF there.

227
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:22,360
This is Dr. Honora Wall and I thank you for listening to What in the World is Dyscalculia.

228
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:30,400
If you have any questions or comments for me, please email me Honora, H-O-N-O-R-A at

229
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:39,440
educalclearning.com or Honora at thedtri.org.

230
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,720
If you found us on YouTube, we've just put our podcast up on YouTube as well as a bunch

231
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,600
of different podcast sites.

232
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:52,080
Please subscribe and like and follow us in our different places so that we can increase

233
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,840
our reach and our expansion of awareness of Dyscalculia.

234
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,960
And if you have any future podcast topics you'd like to hear about, reach out.

235
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,160
I'll be happy to include them.

236
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:30,720
Thank you for listening to What in the World is Dyscalculia and we'll talk more next time.