1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,320
Hello and welcome back to What in the World is Dyscalculia presented by Educalc

2
00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:13,800
Learning and hosted by me, Dr. Honora Wall.

3
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,200
Thank you for joining us today.

4
00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:24,620
I want to recap a very interesting article for you that talks about some of the ways

5
00:00:24,620 --> 00:00:28,820
in which we learn math and some of the problems we run into.

6
00:00:28,820 --> 00:00:37,520
And I hope that this will illustrate the many pieces and parts that go into mathematical

7
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:38,520
thinking.

8
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,360
It's not as easy as we think or as straightforward as we think it is.

9
00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,080
And it's very complex.

10
00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,320
There's a lot of processes involved.

11
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:56,360
So let's take a look at a couple of them.

12
00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:03,280
I'm going to be discussing some findings that were published in the Developmental Disabilities

13
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,720
Bulletin in 2004.

14
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:12,760
The article is titled Learning Math, Basic Concepts, Math Difficulties and Suggestions

15
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:19,960
for Intervention, published by Das and Jansen researchers at the University of Alberta.

16
00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:24,440
I'm just going to hit some of the highlights today and talk about why these findings are

17
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:31,760
important, how they matter to us as math educators, as parents of students with dyscalculia, or

18
00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,760
as people who have dyscalculia.

19
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:39,400
Do better understand yourselves as mathematical thinkers and learners.

20
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:49,560
But I will put a link to a PDF of the full article on the dtri.org so that you can read

21
00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:50,560
it for yourself.

22
00:01:50,560 --> 00:02:00,680
And the dtri is the Dyscalculia Training and Research Institute, a 501c3 non-profit

23
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:08,000
organization dedicated to disseminating information about dyscalculia and getting that research

24
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,960
out there and conducting new research.

25
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,240
That is definitely the goal.

26
00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,360
But that is in the future.

27
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,240
Let's talk about what's already been published and where it leads us, what it tells us today.

28
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:30,000
So in this particular article, Das and Jansen reviewed a couple of research studies and

29
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,680
the key points that really popped out for me.

30
00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:43,000
One is what makes someone quote unquote good at math.

31
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:50,280
And one of the things they talk about is flexibility in strategies, the planning that goes into

32
00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,640
approaching a math problem.

33
00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:56,520
Now this planning is instantaneous.

34
00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,960
It requires flexibility.

35
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,000
It requires a non-rigid thinking.

36
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,520
It requires taking feedback, correcting your approach, coming at a problem from different

37
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:09,720
ways.

38
00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,680
And it happens when we look at a math problem.

39
00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:24,440
It could be an equation, 2x equals 14, could be an elementary math problem, adding decimals

40
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,040
or multiplying fractions.

41
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:33,520
It could be reading a word problem and having to figure out what we're being asked to do.

42
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:43,880
In each case, there's a process of planning that the mind does automatically on its own.

43
00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:50,320
And these researchers found that people who we call quote unquote good at math, the high

44
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:55,080
achieving students, they're very flexible and quick with that planning.

45
00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,440
They can look at a math problem and come up with lots of different strategies for how

46
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,320
they might solve that problem, lots of different approaches.

47
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:07,080
And they can move from one to the other quickly.

48
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:12,520
So when we're working with students or when we're talking to our children or our students

49
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,120
or we're doing work on our own and we look at a problem and we have to pause and think

50
00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,760
ah, what do I do?

51
00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,680
Hold on, I've seen this before.

52
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:22,880
I know what I've got to do.

53
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:23,880
I know these steps.

54
00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:24,880
I can figure this out.

55
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,920
Just give me a second.

56
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:34,440
Or when we look at a problem and think, okay, I have to do this first, do this second, do

57
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:35,440
this third.

58
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,560
No shortcut, no secondary way of doing it.

59
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,000
I learned it this way.

60
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,800
That's the only way I ever want to know it.

61
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:53,160
That kind of rigid approach or that kind of stuck in one method and that kind of pausing.

62
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,600
Those are signs that we're just not very confident with that particular math skill or we might

63
00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,400
be struggling within that math skill.

64
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,320
For teachers, that's where your conversation is going to come into play.

65
00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,480
The only way you can know if your students are flexible or if their planning is to talk

66
00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:15,400
to them, you're going to have to ask them, how might you solve this?

67
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:16,400
Don't tell me the answer.

68
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,520
Tell me what you think you might do.

69
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,720
Anybody else have a different approach?

70
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,600
Anybody else have something different they might do and have those conversations?

71
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,320
You cannot see a mental process.

72
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,960
You cannot tell from the final answer what the mental process was.

73
00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:39,160
You're going to have to talk with your students to really dig into what they're thinking,

74
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:45,440
what they're planning, what kind of strategies they have so that you can gauge skill set

75
00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,600
and their strength in this area.

76
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,560
And if you find there's a lot of pushback, there's a lot of resistance, then you know,

77
00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,920
okay, we're going to take some different methods.

78
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,960
We're going to find different support tools.

79
00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,760
We're not going to show every single strategy, every single possibility because that's overwhelming

80
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,200
to some students.

81
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:05,200
And that's fine.

82
00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,400
We don't all have to be excellent planners.

83
00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,000
We don't all have to be flexible thinkers.

84
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:19,160
We don't all have to be great at taking feedback.

85
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,160
Some of us are very linear, very direct, one foot in front of the other.

86
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,200
One step after the other.

87
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:33,520
And it takes all different people and approaches to make the world go round.

88
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:38,560
But the more you talk to your students, the more you're going to know their personal strengths

89
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,040
and weaknesses.

90
00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:45,080
Okay, another really interesting point in this article.

91
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:53,560
I thought this was great the way these researchers explained two fundamental concepts in learning

92
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:59,280
math, magnitude and value.

93
00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:04,800
And I thought they did a great job of really explaining these two in a way for us to break

94
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:11,680
it down from the point of view of the learner, especially young learners.

95
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:18,440
So we can see differences in magnitude and value from very young ages, preschool to second

96
00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:19,440
grade.

97
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:26,120
But we can also look for lingering issues with magnitude or value in our older students

98
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:32,240
and it can give us some insight into where we want to support students where they're

99
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:33,240
struggling.

100
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,880
Okay, so magnitude.

101
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:39,480
We'll take that first.

102
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:48,480
What is, according to the researchers, the way they explained it, size, bulk, quantity.

103
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,640
They use adjectives like big, medium, little, large, small.

104
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,880
That is magnitude.

105
00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:02,320
And we can see that even infants have a sense of magnitude, which things are larger, which

106
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,320
things are smaller in objects.

107
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,280
At this point with magnitude, we are not necessarily talking about digits.

108
00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:16,080
We're not talking about number, written numbers.

109
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,640
But it is a part of number sense, which is very interesting.

110
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:31,280
So if we have a sense of magnitude that the distance from our house to the moon is larger

111
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:37,440
than the distance from our house to the grocery store or our house to the mailbox, those are

112
00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,480
all part of understanding magnitude.

113
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:47,520
If we have students or just children just playing with children, not everything has

114
00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:48,520
to be a lesson.

115
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:54,240
Just having a good time lining things up, putting them in order from larger to smaller

116
00:08:54,240 --> 00:09:00,800
or vice versa, making pyramids out of different shapes, making things that connect based on

117
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:09,840
their size, grouping by size, anything like that, we're discussing magnitude.

118
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,680
Which animal is larger than the other?

119
00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:17,960
Which book is larger than the other?

120
00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,520
Who sits in a smaller or a larger chair?

121
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:23,760
Adults or children?

122
00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:29,480
All of these conversations increase a sense of magnitude.

123
00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:35,840
And there is some question about why we can see this even in infants.

124
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,280
It seems to be something present at birth and innate sense that we are born with, part

125
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:49,440
of that innate number sense that we have from the beginning of time, our time.

126
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,920
This is totally different than value.

127
00:09:53,920 --> 00:10:01,320
The concept of value has no inherent meaning on its own.

128
00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:07,240
Value has to be taught and it has to be learned.

129
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,880
It has to be an agreed upon condition.

130
00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,920
It is not something that is inherently true or false.

131
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:21,440
And this is where we can really see a big difference between natural mathematical thinking

132
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,800
and what we're learning in school.

133
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:33,200
So value and the value that we tie to digits, to written numbers, these are very unique concepts

134
00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,880
that we have constructed.

135
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:43,440
And when we see students having a problem with that, we can see where they're struggling.

136
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,520
And for people with dyscalculia, those struggles don't really go away.

137
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:53,240
That value piece doesn't connect or click at the same time.

138
00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,840
And sometimes not in the same way.

139
00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:02,760
Now the authors in this study say, and this is a quote, the difference between magnitude

140
00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:10,480
and value is analogous to the distinction between speaking and reading.

141
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:16,160
While speaking occurs naturally and perhaps a blueprint exists in the human brain for

142
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:21,480
speaking, reading has to be learned.

143
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,160
Reading is acquired.

144
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,160
That's the end of their quote.

145
00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,120
And I thought that was such a great way for us to think about this.

146
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:35,120
We understand that very well, whether or not we teach reading.

147
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:40,240
We need to understand the same concepts in the world of math.

148
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,760
When we teach math, magnitude is one thing, value is another.

149
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:51,480
And we need to not assume that value is going to come from counting from one to five on

150
00:11:51,480 --> 00:12:00,960
a number line or one to ten on a one to one hundredth chart, simply repeating these words

151
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:07,720
or simply writing down digits doesn't necessarily automatically connect to value.

152
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:14,160
So if you're trying to really strengthen that, I would definitely be as tactile as possible.

153
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,720
First your objects to your counting.

154
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:22,600
I know you're already doing that in elementary ed, but if you're seeing that by the end of

155
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:28,040
kindergarten, the end of first grade into second grade, students are still kind of struggling

156
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:33,240
at putting that piece together where they still are relying on the tactile piece.

157
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,800
I'm not using the word manipulative because you don't have to go out and buy a bunch of

158
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:43,560
fancy things and the special rods and that's going to magically make value make sense.

159
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:53,200
So count, organize, structural work with literally anything in the room is going to really make

160
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:54,440
that connection.

161
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,360
So stop thinking only in terms of manipulatives.

162
00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,240
Think of anything that's around you and really bring that math piece into all parts of the

163
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:07,240
student experience within their actual real world experience.

164
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:13,440
Okay, so keep working on that piece and if we're seeing that piece is still like there's

165
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,840
a disconnect.

166
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:21,520
So when the way you're going to see that in the classroom is a student who can count with

167
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:27,560
objects and count on their fingers, maybe they're not counting in their head.

168
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:34,120
Maybe they're not adding without that number line or without those tactile objects that

169
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:40,040
can be assigned either of low numeracy, a little slower development or past second grade,

170
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:45,640
probably an indication of dyscalculia and we need to look further at a potential math

171
00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,400
learning disability.

172
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,480
So we want to look at the difference between magnitude and value.

173
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,960
And the last piece I'm going to pull out of this article, which I definitely want to talk

174
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:02,960
more about in a future podcast, I want to get some more information to really flesh out

175
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,440
this idea.

176
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:10,360
But one of the last things that the authors talk about is how much work goes into one

177
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:11,360
problem.

178
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,880
And this kind of goes back to that planning piece and the flexibility we started talking

179
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,160
about in the beginning to kind of flesh out that idea.

180
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:26,000
The authors talk about addition and say you have to add.

181
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,760
Now math teachers and parents and adults, we consider adding like the very first thing

182
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,120
you do, the very basic thing.

183
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,120
So easy.

184
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,120
It's just adding.

185
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,560
That's totally false.

186
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:42,560
Here's all of the different things that can happen when the student is learning about

187
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:47,920
adding and they're figuring out what kind of strategy they can use to solve this problem.

188
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,240
First of all, they've got to have cardinality and ordinality.

189
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,000
They've got to understand a number line.

190
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,200
They've got to understand counting from one number to another number.

191
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,000
We're not even talking about subtraction and working backwards.

192
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,200
Just going forward.

193
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:09,280
And the strategies could be counting on their fingers, either visibly where you can see

194
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,600
it, or sometimes older students will hide their fingers.

195
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,800
They're still using them to count, but they don't want the shame and the embarrassment.

196
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,160
So they're hiding.

197
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,800
Make sure you don't allow that kind of shame or embarrassment in your classroom.

198
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,560
Let people use whatever tool is helping them out.

199
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:30,920
Next, they could be representing numbers with their fingers, adding without you seeing that

200
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:36,120
they're counting or kind of in their head, they're thinking about counting on their fingers.

201
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:41,840
They might be using something like a touch math system is a very popular one for early

202
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,120
elementary interventionists.

203
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:49,320
Older kids are not going to be able to use that system very well for a bigger, longer

204
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:50,320
problems.

205
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,280
This is something that impacts time and extended time.

206
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,120
So they might be hiding that and doing it mentally whenever possible.

207
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:00,480
There's also verbal counting.

208
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:01,480
You could count out loud.

209
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:02,480
All right.

210
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,080
If I have five and I'm adding three, so it's five, six, seven, eight.

211
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,760
Now of course, students with dyscalculia are going to start at one, one, two, three, four,

212
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,040
five, one, two, three.

213
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,640
They may or may not get that they're supposed to continue past the five.

214
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,960
Even if they do, they're going to start at one, count to five, then count three more

215
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:23,960
to eight.

216
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,880
So verbal counting, totally different strategy.

217
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:33,000
And the last strategy, the one that's kind of the gold standard for classroom teachers

218
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:39,120
is retrieving that answer from long-term memory, not having to do the counting, having memorized

219
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:44,000
some basic facts or being able to count so fast, you're not even aware that you're doing

220
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,680
it and having those answers pop right out.

221
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:55,840
Students of students with dyscalculia, people of any age who have dyscalculia, teachers

222
00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:01,880
who have been working with this population for a while, we know that strategy is not

223
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:02,880
going to happen.

224
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,360
That's highly, highly unlikely.

225
00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:11,800
In the same way, if you asked me to read a paragraph and took my glasses away from me,

226
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,360
I would not be able to do it.

227
00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:17,560
I'm a pretty good reader and I have pretty good reading comprehension.

228
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,480
But I still need to wear my glasses if I'm going to read something.

229
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,840
So I would need a different strategy if we were talking about reading strategies in this

230
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:27,840
analogy.

231
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:32,960
So all of these strategies get you to a final answer.

232
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:39,920
So as the adults in the classroom teachers, we're used to judging which strategy is appropriate

233
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,120
at what grade level.

234
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:46,840
And that might be something for us to all reflect on.

235
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,920
What kind of judgment are we putting on student work?

236
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,680
And what kind of student work do we give value to?

237
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,480
And what kinds do we not?

238
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,840
And what does that say about what we're valuing?

239
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:08,480
The right answer or speed or being a good memorizing person who has that grade skill?

240
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:17,400
Or are we valuing the work of combining quantity and coming up with a final answer?

241
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,920
So let's think about that in our classrooms.

242
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:26,560
Okay, again, to wrap up, this was a very recap of some highlights that really popped out

243
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,120
from me.

244
00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:33,120
When I was reading the article Learning Math, Basic Concepts, Math Difficulties, and Suggestions

245
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:41,200
for Intervention compiled by researchers Das and Jansen at the University of Alberta.

246
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:52,280
And I will make this PDF available on www.thedtri.org.

247
00:18:52,280 --> 00:19:01,200
And I'll try to get it up on educalclearning.com as well for whichever website you're using

248
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,280
to find dysCalculia information.

249
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,960
I think the non-profit is going to be more focused on that research dissemination piece

250
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:18,920
and the educalclearning is really moving towards books and materials and math courses that

251
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,800
go directly to students and teachers.

252
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:27,240
So different focus areas for those two things, but they're both a great way to reach me.

253
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,800
If you have any questions or comments about what we've talked about today, you can find

254
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:40,760
me at Honora, H-O-N-O-R-A at educalclearning.com.

255
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,240
If you want to know more about our teacher training courses, having me come to your school

256
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,440
for an in-person training or if you're looking for some of our books, you can also find our

257
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:57,200
books at Amazon, BarnesandNoble.com, ask about them at your local bookstore, or on our website.

258
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,720
educalclearning.com.

259
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:07,680
You can also email me Honora at thedtri.org.

260
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:12,880
If you have a question about our research, about any of the research articles we talk

261
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:19,080
about on the podcast, or if you'd like to get some free materials for yourself or for

262
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:26,800
your school, educating people about the math learning disability, Dyscalculia.

263
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,080
Thank you so much for listening to What in the World is Dyscalculia.

264
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:59,600
I'm Dr. Honora Wall, and I will speak with you next time.