Welcome to the Gospel Truth Project podcast.
I'm your host, Jason, and I have my co -host
here. What's up, guys? It's me, Dylan. We made
it! I'm so excited. Yeah, it's actually, I know
it's been a long time, and for our listeners
who have actually been listening to our podcast,
though, it's been like almost a year since we
recorded. It's been like April or May last year.
yeah we kind of like to do that type of stuff
you know we're like yeah here's our comeback
here we go and then see you in the 12th um you
know our tensions are always yes we are going
to uh you know we're gonna start recording again
and things get crazy busy and different and change
up and uh yeah But I think, yeah, we both really
want to do it. I think we just need to maintain
that and actually do it. And, you know, maybe
it's sporadic, but that's just how life is. True.
True. I know. And Jason is so busy with doing
all his stuff. And he decided to write a book.
That's how long it's been. He was so bored. He
couldn't do record. He's like, I'm going to write
a book. I've been working on that book for about
two, two and a half years. And then when we stopped
recording, it gave me an opportunity to really
focus on it and try to finish it. So that was,
that was kind of the benefit to what ended up
happening there. So, um, yeah. And for the listeners
who don't know, you can actually join our gospel
truth project, uh, podcast. uh as like an audience
live audience where you can ask questions live
it's just something that we have where we're
recording live on on our discord uh you go to
gospel truth project .com you go to the bottom
there's the discord button click it join it and
then check out everything what we have going
on into the discord itself and as dylan mentioned
i did write a book it's called a nobody's opinion
a nobody's opinions on amazon barnes and nobles
uh It's on Google Books, like anywhere you can
find books. I highly recommend the Amazon because
you can get the Kindle book or you can get the
soft cover or the hard cover. So I usually recommend
doing it that way. It's just a nobody's opinion.
It's Christian apologetics from a person that
is a nobody at that point. So that's kind of
the idea of that. And I was really excited that
I got it done. yeah and if you're like me it
does if you'd like to read it does come in an
audiobook option yeah that's something that took
a while but yeah that i've been told i haven't
heard it yet i've been told yeah the amazon stuff
is like interesting with the audio and i activated
it i just i just haven't done it to see if it
actually worked i had to double check but supposedly
it is so allegedly allegedly yeah yeah but yeah
i mean we haven't talked in a minute like how
are you doing i you know i'm exhausted tired
um yeah i just got the kids are just growing
up like you know i think one reason we kind of
stopped recording is like we me and the wife
literally had a baby um So that it makes a little
hard to record when I'm like, Hey, Jason, this
record, you know, around like nine, 10, something
like that. And then I'm like, Oh no, the baby
isn't going to sleep. Yeah. Oh, she's a year
and a half now, but it's like, okay, well, dang,
I was trying to come out and record. Right. My.
but then you know our you know sometimes you
know they snuggle you're really good and then
you just kind of pass out next thing you know
it's 10 30 you're like oh no i think uh i think
i missed it like yeah it was the time difference
too you know it's always a fun thing yeah there's
some reason we can't just it would be the right
time true like right now for everyone listening
like uh right now it's about 12 15 a .m for me
it's for Dylan's an hour before, but I was like,
yeah, it's late, but this is the one chance I'll
have in a while until I move and get everything
set up and ready to go. Exactly. And I'm like,
yeah. I'm like, I'm not in Hawaii. It's true.
Hawaii is like a four. They don't do like daylight
savings, I don't think. So like they're, yeah.
I don't know what they do. i don't know yeah
it'd still be a different time and just the time
zones at least with our zone it's only an hour
difference which makes it doable for the most
part so it's like okay it's doable we could do
this um but yeah so i will say today's episode
actually comes from um someone on our facebook
page they actually asked us to uh review this
so on the gospel truth project facebook we asked
everybody we asked all these people hey what
should we talk about when it comes to like the
podcast what topics do you recommend for the
podcast and the main topic that came up was salvation
faith alone or faith plus works i'm still and
i'm sure you agree too is that we we hear it
a lot where we have like orthodox catholics and
protestants where they all say well it's faith
it's faith yes but there's works yes or there's
faith alone only there's there's work so i think
it's going to be a good topic to talk about because
obviously there's the questions of well let's
define faith let's define salvation because this
is all about faith equals salvation right so
that's kind of where this episode is going to
lead is Let's talk about it and see what we got.
What's the scripture say? I think it's a good,
I think it's one of the, it's kind of a big topic.
And I think it's one of those questions. I think,
you know, it needs to be answered properly. Like
there's a lot of things where different, I don't
know, different, different mindsets that are
out there, different things that have been put
out there. Maybe that aren't, really correct
yeah i would say like even on top of that it's
just like there's a that split between what is
salvific compared to what is a response to salvation
like what is the response what is the reaction
to compared to what is actually the saving part
right so yeah i think a lot of it too is just
there's a lot of I don't know. Maybe we think,
maybe we think like the people think there's
a gray area, you know, when there's, I think
it is pretty tough and dry, but I think we'll
get a little more into that. Yeah. I actually,
I think one of the things that I was talking
to a friend, another friend of mine was that
I think both statements saying faith alone or
faith plus works is oversimplified too much.
Like, by far too oversimplified i know that the
idea of salvation in itself is simple in the
sense that we have faith like scriptures teaches
but i think it's oversimplified because it's
you can end up with two sides of this right if
you say faith alone you get the cheap grace which
like let's say for example if i told you i was
married but never spoke to my wife at all and
lived in different houses and then dated other
women. And then would you believe me if I was
truly married? Probably not. James, like, Oh,
James. Oh my gosh. Here we go. James, what? James,
what? No, no. So James suggests that faith is
like a marriage, right? He, if there's no relationship,
then the covenant's empty. But then on the other
side of faith and works, you have the other side
of it where it's like, If we stood before God
and he asked, why should I let you into my kingdom?
And you listed all your good works. Would you
be pointing to yourself rather than Jesus? If
Jesus paid it all, why do you need to add a tip?
Right. That's, that's the, the kind of like balance
here. Is that what you're seeing as well? I honestly
think that's a great analogy though, honestly,
with marriage, because, you know, it is the truth
though, is because like, you know, you can be,
married you know you can be in a relationship
and people have these things you say oh we are
open relationships so that that's a whole thing
that's so my mind -boggling to me because it's
not a relationship that's not a marriage it's
the same thing though like i think it definitely
is i mean there's a gray area in the sense where
you can say oh yeah it's not like i believe now
so i'm good that's all i needed Right. And it's
also, you can't say, oh, I did good. So therefore
I should be fine. I think it more comes from
the place of where I am. I do have a relationship
with Jesus. I am married. You know what I mean?
Like in that sense. So I don't drink coffee really,
but my wife does. Right. So I make coffee for
her. She's not going to hear this, but I know
I drink a little bit. Just a little bit. I don't
really drink. I just drink a cup of her coffee.
You know what I mean? I'm still going to do that,
though, because it's out of my love and my, you
know, my belief in our marriage that I'm going
to take care of those things. It's the same thing.
We believe in Christ. And so, therefore, we have
our actions that show our love for Christ. Right.
Because I think, you know, otherwise, there is
no point to the actions. It's just like the same
thing is, you know, some people say, well, if
you don't have God, then what's the point of
morals? I'm a good person. But what's the point
of being a good person? Right. You know, and
I think it's a good, it shows a little bit too,
like, you know, people that are more of this
world. Oh, yeah, I just try to be the best person
I can. It's like, but what reason? And I feel
like a lot of time you get these empty, you know,
things because there's a Jesus size hole that
they're trying to fill through their good works.
And so I'm such a good person. I do this and
that. It's like, but what's really in your heart?
What really is the reasoning for all of it? Yeah.
It's a heart issue. You know, like most things.
all right i mean we see so this is like we're
like in galatians for example 2 16 it says yet
we know that a person is not justified by works
of the law but through faith in jesus christ
so we also have believed in christ jesus in order
to be justified by faith in christ not by works
of law because by works of law no one will be
justified um So then we see in like Romans 3,
28, for example, says for we hold that one is
justified by faith, like part from works of the
law. So there's this constant message that happens.
I mean, Romans 5, 1 talks about it. Therefore,
since we have been justified by faith, we have
peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 4, 5, again, and to the one who does not.
work but believes in him who justified the ungodly
his faith is counted as righteous so we have
this constantly going back where scripture the
short answer is that scripture says that salvation
is by grace alone which is sola gratia through
faith alone which is sola fide in christ alone
but but the the key here is that biblical faith
is not merely intellectual agreement it is a
vital allegiance that inevitably produces obedience.
Good works are the necessary breath of the living
faith, not the purchase price of salvation. I
guess that's the best way I can put it. Yeah,
I mean, if you're in Romans, so I have to agree
with you. No, but I mean, yeah, I'm in agreement
with that. I mean, yeah i mean it is grace alone
that we're saved and that's a hundred i mean
that's what i mean like the black and white side
of it it is by grace alone that we are saved
and there's just that's it's cut and dry right
um you know like i said too like you know but
by that you know you have that grace but then
you should have having that grace it should go
right because if you you know you need it Like
if I say, you know what, I go to the gym, I have
a gym membership. Okay, well, if I'm weighing
280 pounds and you catch me at Mickey D's. I'm
never at the gym. And, you know, I was like,
oh, you go to the gym, it's like, yeah, they
have a really good vending machine there. Right.
Oh, you're just going to get fed, but are you
putting in the work? I think it's the same thing
with God. Oh, yeah, no, I go to church. Oh, you
do? Oh, yeah, yeah, I get the donuts and the
coffee. I like church. Okay, but are you actually
getting fed? Also, same thing, are you actually
doing the work? Are you actually walking with
Christ? Are you actually working out your spiritual
muscles, in a sense? Mm hmm. Are you are you
are you showing us that you've been given that
grace and you're working with that grace? Are
you just like, I know I'm having me my grace
donut and my grace coffee and yum. Yeah. No,
actually, I agree, because we have to address
the uncomfortable reality, which is many like,
for example, many American Christians have decisional
regeneration. But like no spiritual life. So
we have created a culture where raising a hand
or walking an aisle is equated with salvation,
regardless of subsequent fruit. And the hard
truth is that holiness is not an optional add
-on package for like super Christians. Hebrews
12, 14 says, strive for holiness without which
no one will see the Lord. So, if your theology
allows you to claim Christ while comfortably
living in sin, your theology is not that of the
Bible. Grace doesn't just forgive sin, it empowers
us to break sin's power, which is Titus 2 .11
-12 that backs that up. You make it sound like
there's like, you know. Or $7 .99, you can have
the base of Christian package, but if you want
ad -free and you want the super Christian experience,
pay $14 .99. Make sure you type every week. Right.
I know it's not at all how that works. It's like,
no. Yeah, I mean, it's like turned into commercialism
to that degree of like, oh, well, you do this,
you get this. Yeah, yeah. Like at that genie
system or a vending machine version of it. It's
like. No, no. Starting to sound kind of Catholic
-y there. You pay enough money or you're excommunicated,
okay? You're going to be in the Catholic church.
I would say that's more like the medieval of
that. Yeah, the medieval version of that. Yeah,
I mean, I don't know if they still do that nowadays,
no. But I will say... Can you imagine that? He's
so frowned upon now. It's like, can you believe
this? Oh my gosh. Well, look at the ministers
that are on TV. They do that. They're like, donate.
I feel like someone needs to donate $500 right
now and they're going to get double their money
back. They do that right now. It's the prosperity
gospel. You do this, you're going to get double,
triple, quadruple. All your house is going to
get paid for. That's what they do is televangelists
are sitting there on TV with a phone number saying,
donate now. I feel like God's telling someone
to donate that money that you're thinking about.
Donate your rent money. Oh, come back twice full.
It's like, no, no. Or have some discernment for
free. Right. Yeah, I think. I think this is something
important that we should look at is the two heavyweight
champions of this debate, right? Which is Paul
and James, arguably Paul and James. So they,
they, I would suggest that Paul and James stand
back to back fighting different enemies, not
face to face fighting each other. Cause that's
something that a lot of people say that Paul
and James were contradicting. Cause you know,
Paul's defense, right? In Ephesians two. Oh yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So like in, Ephesians 2, 8 through
10, he said, for by grace you have been saved
through faith, not a result of works that no
one may boast, right? So, if we look at the Greek
there, when it says have been saved, it's sesos
minoi, which this is a perfect passive participle.
So, like passive God did the action, you received
it. Perfect in the sense that it's completed
past action with present abiding results. You
aren't being saved by your effort. You are saved.
So, in 10, you see this, like, the hinge here,
which is, for we are his workmanship, which is,
if I remember correctly, is poema, and then created
in Christ Jesus for good works. So, poema gives
us the word poem, which is where we get it from.
We are God's masterpiece. So works the result
fruit, not the cause tool or root. You don't
work for salvation. You work from salvation.
Oh yeah. Like you said, it's, it's not, you don't
work for it. You know what I mean? It's not just,
you don't just, Oh my gosh. Dylan has dogs that
he's wrestling with. Those, those puppies, you
know what? Yeah. Those who don't know. I'm going
to sidebar this real quick. Yeah, sidebar. Because
it's the God story. So my wife had a dream about
a little German, not a German Shepherd, but a
Shepherd Mix puppy. She's like, I had a dream
about a puppy. It reminded me of my own dog.
And I felt like I was telling this, we should
get a puppy. And I'm like, okay, sure. yeah like
there's gonna be some puppies for you know for
sale or you know or was humane or whatever like
are you know sure yeah okay if there's a puppy
there whatever we'll go totally well um there
was uh down south uh and uh so yeah then i called
and like oh actually the dog's gonna set up for
adoption at 10. um You guys can be here at four,
though. We can maybe see them. Like, oh, we got
to pick up a kid from school. We can't do that.
Like, okay, well, if they cancel, I'll call you.
I'm like, okay, awesome. Here's my number. Yada,
yada. We did that. We wake up in the morning.
I was like, I had a dream that they canceled.
They're going to cancel. Like, so we need to
go down there. Okay. So we went down there for
half an hour. We're there at 930. Before they
open up, like a whole half an hour, I get a phone
call. hey so we just got a phone call they canceled
i was like we're actually already down here in
your parking lot just chilling because my wife
had a dream that you guys that she can't the
other person canceled so we're here so we can
adopt the dog and this dog has actually been
really i mean we have another dog so this dog
is actually pretty chill and she's like actually
way easier than the first dog was when she was
a pup and that's like a three -month puppy And
it's like, but like, see what I mean? Like is
I can try to tie this back is like, but that
listening and obedience and obedience, God does,
you know, he does things. Yeah. He works through,
you know, like you guys move in and get into
a better place and doing that. Like God will
provide. And that's just. oh yeah puppies the
puppy you know they have to learn the proper
bite indicators yeah you know oh yeah she's gonna
learn but she is chopping up my arm right now
oh my gosh but yeah you know and that's part
of the juice because sometimes you know you go
through that that pain yeah and you have those
parts where you're you know where you have that
grace from god you still go through hard things
I'm just trying to think of how I can bring it
right to the public, buddy. Oh, my goodness.
Oh. I will say, like, that's where Paul's defense
was fighting legalism, but that's where the next
step, which you're talking about, is obedience,
trusting, and stepping out in faith when stuff
is rough or stuff is hard. That's where James'
defense in James 2, for example, 14 to 26, he
was fighting easy believism. the idea that faith
without works is dead. So, when we look at the
Greek, right, justified, which is dikealo, dikealo,
I think if I remember correctly, it's how...
Right, dikealo. This word has a, like a semantic
range, and so in Paul, in Romans, it usually
means forensic declaration, like to be declared
righteous in a court, like a legal court. In
James context suggests it means like a vindication
to be demonstrated as righteous. So when he says
demons believe, like in the sense of like even
demons believe, I think it's the words for it.
But James uses the words, which is. described
mental ascent which demons know monotheism is
factually true but they shudder they have fact
but no allegiance so the key talking point chair
is that james is not asking how does a sinner
get right with god like paul's question james
is asking what does genuine faith look like so
with him As mentioned, the whole point is like,
hey, it's not just a, I believe a certain way.
I think a certain way. It is, I believe and have
faith, and that faith produces change. It produces
a shift. Like, that's why we say born again.
And we receive the Holy Spirit, and that's why
Galatians 5 says, if you are truly saved, then
you will have the Spirit, the fruits of the Spirit
within your life. interact with other people
with the fruits of the spirit in that sense you
can see the fruit of the spirit in your life
and the holy spirit is the mark the seal upon
a believer to say that they are saved so we can
see that there is a transformation this is kind
of where the correct classic like christian orthodoxy
in that sense faith equals salvation plus works
is not works equals salvation or adheres to salvation
in a sense but is because you have faith it is
equal to salvation and the result of that has
works because of that faith and because you are
saved i guess i guess it's like a lot of it sounds
like a lot of jumble but it's trying to say it
is not so like faith plus works is called salvation
no faith minus works equals salvation no it would
be faith equals salvation plus works is the idea
that it comes with it because it's a renewing
of a mind transforms transformation yeah exactly
it's you know funny because at church we literally
um i just talked about this about how about producing
fruit and provision and all this and you know
and god's provision that you just he'll provide
and you'll see the fruit too from what he provides
you when he gives you when you fully trust because
when you fully trust in the lord you give him
that you fully devote to him and do that you
know you'll see fruit come out of it you also
see hardship and things and things that are not
going to be easy Due to the fact that we live
in a fallen world and that God says it's never
going to be easy. He never tells you that flat
out. Following me is not an easy path. But he
will provide for you so you're able to provide.
So at church, they asked, hey, who wants provision?
Who wants provision? Now, my wife shot her hand
up so fast. The fact that she's a five foot short
little thing who is not seen. I'll tell you who
was second person to raise their hand. It was
me. I was trying to go faster than her. She got
a shorter distance to cover, so she won, but
that was fine. Anyways, then they call me up
in front of church, and I'm not sharing this
to be like, look at what I got, because it's
God. It's God, what he did, and how he provides.
Then they had me come up, and they said, you
shot your hand up so fast. I'm like, actually,
my wife did first. I'm just, you know. six foot
three on a good day and it was quicker and um
they brought a freaking little uh tangerine tree
here god's providing here this is the fruit you're
gonna see fruit i'm like i'm literally seeing
these are like literally there's some tangerines
on here right yeah and i remember i don't know
if you ever seen a video of the man who tithed
his fruit his lemons I have not. I'll have to
find it. This man had two lemon trees and he
tithed one and he left the other one as whatever.
These lemons grow to be decidedly grapefruits.
Oh, yeah, I know those kind of lemons. Because
he tithed the first, you know, to the Lord down
night. I'm like, how cool is that going to be?
I'm going to do this and I'm going to tithe my
first things and my tangerines. You're going
to think they're oranges, but they're really
tangerines. And so we just got to tithe those
today. And I'm like, it's so cool because God's
providing. Even when it's little things like
that. But I think it really is little. You may
have seen a tangerine, but they're not these
big fruit. And it's like, but these little things
still so juicy and they're sweet and all this,
you know, they got the vitamins in it. It's like,
even these little fruits that maybe you don't
think are going to give you much or be enough,
like, you know. Yeah. They do, they provide.
Yeah. And that's, I think it's a cool analogy
for all that, you know. Yeah. I like citrus,
so it's good for, you know, good for me. And
the baby calls all citruses. We have lemon tree
and orange tree. Mandarin oranges or tangerines.
And she calls them all lemons. I'm like, what
the heck? Which one do you want? We got lemon.
We got lime. We got all these fruits. It's really
cute. All the way in the front yard, Jason. She'll
make me walk. Grab my hand and go, come on. Lemon.
First off, I think you want an orange. but i
don't know you know yeah it's just i had to keep
you updated on that it's pretty stinking cute
jason yeah that sounds cute you can't tell a
note to 11 even though right exactly yeah it's
um this is yeah i'm with you and i think uh this
is one of those things where for people listening
there's a distinction between it wasn't the fact
that he tithed and like he'd said the magic words
or did the magic thing is because they he did
it in obedience and to response to god on his
heart is a response to if the holy spirit is
in your life then you respond to it so like with
you guys going to the shelter And saying they're
going to cancel and like, okay, we're stepping
out in faith that God gave her this dream, that
God told her that they're going to cancel and
we're going to be there. And you went there and
you were waiting. You're like, God, we stepped
out in faith, entrusting you that what we're
hearing from you is you. And then you see that
pay off because it shows following and stepping
out in that faith is in. result of. So, when
people hear this, when you say like, oh, we tied
this, it's not because it's the magic thing to
do. It is because you are stepping out in a calling
and a faith that the Holy Spirit is telling you
to do in that sense. Because if you don't know
the defining faith in the Bible, because biblical
faith involves three specific elements, very
three specific ones, which is knowledge, the
understanding, the facts of the gospel. Two,
which is assent, which means agreeing that the
facts are true. And then three, which is trust,
which is fiducia, is the word for it, which is
a personal reliance and allegiance. So you can
have the first two, like the demons in James
2, talking about they have those two. and be
lost. But it is the fidicia, which is entrusting
your whole self to Christ, that saves. That's
the salvific point of that fully giving to God
your life. You're no longer your own master.
It is him. He is king. You are submitting to
Christ Jesus as king and lord over your life.
You are king and king, king and king. There's
one king, and that's him. So, I think that's
something important, especially because Correct
me if I'm wrong or I want your take on this,
but I would suggest that Western evangelicalism
has created a category of a person called like
the carnal Christian, where someone who claims
to believe in Jesus for salvation, but knowingly
refuses to obey him as Lord. And I see that where
it's like believing. Like, for example, believing
and obeying are not necessarily the same word,
but they are the same heartbeat. Because belief
is the internal posture, obedience is the external
motion. So, you can't have a beating heart belief
that doesn't pump blood, which is obedience.
So, it's like this kind of combination. It's
not because it's the work saved, but it's because
it's the heart's alive, you're alive. So, that
is the... the blood pumping now you see you're
alive you're awake you're visual and seeing what
sin is and you see it in your life you're like
wow i want to live a life worthy in the sense
that i want to be sanctified by the holy spirit
and that's a lifelong journey with the holy spirit
as you learn grow and pursue christ so yeah um
i think that's that's spot on i think the only
knowledge i can really think about is too is
Once again, being a parent, the things I did
as a kid, and I'd be like, well, why can't I
just do this? I want to do my things my way.
I want to do them. Why can't I just eat this
or do this or stay up later? But now as a parent,
making a full circle and seeing it, I'm like,
oh, no. i know better now i like not knowing
better now but my eyes are open to now being
in the power in the position of power in a sense
are not power but you know what i mean in leadership
you see leadership you know i mean that maturity
now as a parent the same thing i think you know
as maybe you're a new believer or you say you're
a believer but then actually having that experience
And actually knowing what it means to follow
Christ, what it actually means now to be a parent
in that scene. It's not unfair. Why do I have
to follow these 10 rules? Why are these 10 commandments
even a thing? But then understanding now the
importance of following those rules. Those, those,
you know, ways of living, those 10 commandments
that were given for a reason. The same thing
as parenting is like, why can't you, why can't
I eat cookies every single night for dinner?
Do you want diabetes and do you want to gain
weight and do you want to die young? No. Okay.
All right. Yeah. And, you know, in the same sense,
it's like, okay, you know, as a parent and as
a mature father in Christ. We're to guide, you
know, in that sense to the guy, those who are
newer in faith, but not also understand that
they have an understanding as well. But when
you see things like, hey, dude, I see, you know,
it's always out of love. Same thing with the
parents out of love. So if I see my son, I see,
oh, you know what? He's really struggling with
this right now. I'm not going to sit there and
be like, well. I struggled. You have to struggle
too. That sucks. Right. Get over it, man. That's
very, I mean, some parents might be like that,
you know, boomers and stuff. That doesn't matter.
It's fine if you are. I mean, you should, because
you don't want to give your child the scorpion.
But, you know. You know, it's like, you know,
you want to see them better because I want to
push everybody in their faith to do better than
I'm doing in my faith. It's that accountability
part. Because I don't know if Jason's sharper
than me, he should be able to keep me more accountable,
which is going to make me better in my walk.
And we're both going to help push each other
closer in Christ. Right. And the same thing with
being husbands. You know, if he sees like, hey,
man, like, you know. uh you know last time i
saw you the way you're talking to your wife uh
you know where was the love you know where was
where was that you know that obedience the lord
and honoring your wife right and yeah you know
like oh man i you know i didn't maybe see that
and then he chose me to be at her husband and
like you know vice versa you know and it's always
out of love and respect and i think it's a problem
that you know i've mentioned before It's all
convoluted and all screwed up because people
get, you know, acting like they're holier than
holy and they're Jesus himself when they're not.
And anybody who's been hurt by the church, I
would like to apologize to you guys right now
if you're listening, because it's not the place
that you should be getting hurt. And Jesus still
loves you. uh, we still love you no matter what.
And I just think that's, you know, like even
Jason and me have been hurt by churches too.
And we like me and a pastor to be in the worship,
you know, do it. We've, we've done a lot of it.
Um, and like, so we know, you know, and unfortunately
it's, it's, uh, the error in church is the, is
humans. Um, it's not God. I just feel like that
needs to be said. I don't know if that's just
the Holy Spirit talking to me. I got you. I know
that makes sense. It's one of those things where
it's like, I agree with you because when it comes
to that specifically, that topic, there's a lot
of it where people need to understand that you
don't go to church because that's where God is.
You go to church because that's where other sinners
are trying to learn about God. and other broken
people are trying to learn about god that we
are not perfect none of us are perfect christ
was perfect and that's why church is the thing
is that we come together as a community to learn
together to grow together to walk together and
like a dysfunctional family who are all broken
that causes risks and that causes issues but
christ is king as the center if your focus stays
on him then That's when things around you start
becoming more understandable in the sense that,
like, you can start to pinpoint those things.
Hey, that's not like you. What's going on? I
need to know. Let me pray for you. Let me talk
to you. You know, hey, this isn't like you. Like,
you normally don't come at me like this. Hey,
you're saying this. You're doing this. You're
yelling at someone or whatever. Like, this isn't
like you. Let me pray for you. What's going on?
Are you hurting? Something going on behind the
scenes? Church isn't a place you go to look good,
like look righteous. It's a place you go with
your brokenness to give it to God, to worship
God, and to learn more so that you can be closer
to God. And community is where you interact with
each other to then bear each other's burdens,
to pray for each other, and to strengthen each
other. So, yeah, I agree on that. Wow, that would
be more like PK's answer. That was so beautifully
done, though. Yeah, you know, that's very true.
I think you go to church necessarily for the
community part. That's also, like I said, that's
also the part that kind of sucks. But, you know,
I just encourage anybody, like, you know what,
if you're not feeling like you have that community
there, Pray about it and find a community that's
going to fit you. Because at least encourage
you. Like, yeah, we encourage you that. I mean,
I've had that happen with me. Shoot. Like it's
changed a whole bunch. I was over at our sister
church and I was there youth pastoring there.
And then, you know, the average attendee of that
church was a roughly, you know, 75. Yeah. Actually
the church were Jason and me. vineyard over there
in Santa Maria. And the closest people in our
age group were the youth kids. They were closer
to the 17, 18 -year -old youth kids than we were
the next oldest person, which was the pastor.
Great church. The guy can preach. It was great.
Our problem was the community. It was like, well,
you know, I guess, what do I have to talk to
you guys about? Like, what, Bonko? It's like
your non -relatable age group. You went to the
Alps and you did bingo on Tuesday? How did that
go? Right. You know? And, you know, and now we're
back over at our church at Five Cities and every,
there's, man, you know how many new babies there
are? I'm like, oh my gosh, man, people live in
the water. I'm like, we're going to be careful.
We're going to have a third one. Like, you know,
like you get a contact baby, you know, like,
right. Yeah. But I just, yeah, I just feel like
that's something that needs to be prayed for,
you know, just prayed for and talked about is
looking for that, looking for that. It's not
every perfect fit, but know that God will provide
you with the right church. And, you know, I've
had some not fun experiences with church, you
know, just thinking about like, you know, when
I first started off, literally a bad thing with
church happened, like where I had this like crap
experience with this church. I was their youth
intern. They said, oh, we wish I could pay you,
but we can't pay you. you know they said it for
like five six months i was doing this and then
they ended up running out of room so they could
we could have host events and like youth events
and all this stuff yeah and like oh this is our
budget should be super tight now and like you
know wish we could pay you more this is all we
can afford and then two months later we move
over to a bigger room and are paying almost a
thousand dollars more i was like so wait hold
on what i thought we couldn't pay you Right.
I couldn't even like pay for gas when I was going
to running, like, you know, I had to use my own
money for the gas fan and stuff like that. You
know, I was like, what? Don't make no sense.
Right. And I was upset and I was angry. I was
like, what the heck's going on? I was supposed
to, you know, I'm supposed to get an internship
here and then be able to move ahead and deal
with this. And then I was sitting with, uh, Pastor
JR in the Samoan church for gospel. And he's
like, I feel like God's telling you to leave
that church. It's time for you to go. It's time
for you to go. He's like, Nephew, you want a
youth pastor? You can youth pastor for our church.
I was like, what, really? He's like, yeah. He's
like, God just told me that's what you need to
do, so you better listen. I'm like, oh, what?
God just told you that? He's like, yeah. I'm
like, okay, cool. And that's the thing. Man,
I never met somebody who God just talked to him
and he'd be like, oh, God just told me this.
You need to listen. It's like, oh, whoa, okay.
Just tune with the Holy Spirit. The thing when
I had to leave, he's like, hey, God's been putting
on your heart that you need to go find a new
church. Why haven't you done it? I'm like, whoa,
what? He's like, yeah, go do it. I'm like, where
am I going to go? He's like, I don't know. He's
like, go to a different church on Sunday. Go
find somewhere new. Yeah. I mean, the guy married
us too. So there's no hard feelings there at
all. I think his uncle, man. Yeah. Yeah. And
I think it's, you know, and God provides and
he, provision has been a big thing for me lately.
So I, you know, you know, he's providing. So
I don't know what else to say on that note. Well,
if you're going to that. besides yeah just you
know it's there you there's a grace to it you
have to trust yeah I think a good way because
we're on that topic church hurt is not a modern
invention either it is a biblical tragedy for
the sons of Eli to the Pharisees scripture is
brutally honest about spiritual abuse however
The failure of the visible church, which is the
institution, never invalidates the reality of
the invisible church, which is the true body
of Christ, or the perfection of its head, Jesus.
We do not leave the table just because Judas
is sitting there. Ooh, ooh, wait, hold up, say
that last part again. I said we do not leave
the table just because Judas is sitting there.
Oh my gosh, is somebody saying amen right now
in their car? That is the most true statement
ever. Yeah, I think on our Gospel Truth Project
Discord, I used the analogy, the church is a
construction site. It's loud, dangerous, messy,
and there are falling hazards, but it's the only
place where the temple God is being built. Wear
your hard hat, which is discernment. And keep
your eyes on the architect who is Jesus and not
the other clumsy workers. In that sense. But
I put it that way in our chat. Why are we not
making these into some dang t -shirts? I am going
to. You better. I want one. My birthday coming
up in like a month. You know that, homie. I need
me that. I want to get one of them AI generated.
Jesus as a supervisor pointed out and just had
a bunch of people looking like, oh, you have
maybe sheep. He's sheep. Oh, with hard hats on
walking around. Oh my gosh. I'll have to do that.
That would be pretty good. I am pending. I don't
know what it's been. You're right. So they kind
of get, try to get back onto the topic of the,
the faith works stuff. The one thing that I,
I, I subscribe to in the sense is like, I know
you, you, you subscribe to solo script or a pretty
hardcore. I would assume. Am I wrong? No, never.
I mean, you wrong. No, I, right. No, I, I, I
tend to stick with what's called prima scriptura,
but that means a scripture is the head. It is
the guidance. And we are to study early church
history to understand what they were dealing
with. And they talk about these things not as
authoritative, but as a way to kind of like,
like as we would read a book today talking about
scripture, they were there. Right. And, um, the
only reason why I mentioned that is because when
it comes to like faith and, um, works, some of
the earliest, that we have that are from the
early church fathers. For example, Clement of
Rome, who was a disciple of Paul himself and
was mentioned in the Bible in Philippians 4 .3,
he said, and we too, being called by his will
in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves,
nor by our own wisdom or understanding or godliness
or works, which we have wrought in holiness of
heart. but by the faith through which, from the
beginning, Almighty God has justified all men.
Polycarpa Smyrna, who was a disciple of John,
he came out and said, for by grace you are saved,
not of works, but by the will of God through
Jesus Christ. So, like, when you see... Polycarpa
Smyrna. Smyrna, isn't that a church, too? uh,
Smyrna. Yeah. It's where some of the oldest churches
are there. So it's like, isn't that one of the
churches that's mentioned in the, in the revelation?
Uh, yeah. So like, that's part of it. There's
a lot of that kind of stuff too. Uh, you can
see a lot of these churches. Yeah. I was like,
wait, I know that one. I'm like, I remember that
one. No, we're going to Sunday school back on
my brother. We were had to do like in churches
and stuff. Yeah. I don't know why that, it was
a funny sounding name. That's why. Yeah. Smyrna.
I think that's interesting because like, that's
where you can see, this is where I talk with
Catholics and Orthodox all the time, not to try
to pull them to my camp and what I believe, but
just to talk to them and discuss because they
hang so hard on the founding fathers of Christianity
as truth. And then you see stuff like this, where
they're like, for grace you are saved out of
works. And they're so hardcore about it within
the first hundred years of Christianity. And
these are some of the ones that they quote the
most, but then they ignore some other stuff,
but they're backing their stuff up with scripture
from the apostles who taught them. It's like,
this is something important where it's like,
well, why are you saying yes to some and no to
others? And for those who don't, Believe me,
this is where you go to. Do you know the Council
of Trent by chance or no? No. Okay, that's fine.
I've heard of it, but I know roughly. Yeah. I
know what you're saying because I'm not going
to be a liar. Yeah, I get you. Council of Trent
was the Catholics' response to Luther's sola
fide, which is faith alone. In canon 9 of that,
they pronounced anybody like an anathema for
anyone who says a sinner is justified by faith
alone, implying that human cooperation and merit
are required to preserve grace. The critique
here, obviously, is that Trent conflated justification,
our legal standing, with sanctification which
is our eternal growth by mixing our works into
the basis of our acceptance they remove the assurance
of salvation so and if my standing depends on
my works i can never know if i have done enough
so this is where you can see people who generally
have faith in christ you say i do you know if
you're saved yes my salvation is solidified by
the works that jesus did not by the works i do
When they say, I don't know, then you have to
ask, is it because you haven't done enough? Or
why do you believe you don't know for sure? Usually
they'll say, because I don't know if I'm good
enough. It's like, this is where you're focusing
separately. Focus on Christ. Christ is center.
Christ is king. And he did the work. You are
in response to that work. And your response is
belief and obedience. not for salvific purposes,
but in a response to the salvation that's offered
by grace through faith. And that's kind of like
the beautiful, like lineage of how scripture
talks about that consistently. Yeah. I'm so glad
that you just described that. And I didn't because,
uh, yeah, I would have bought shit. So, yeah,
but yeah, it's, It's so true, though, because
it literally, I mean, I think of the good works,
you know, mean nothing if you don't have faith.
And, you know, I just really think it is come
down to your faith. And does your faith show
it? Do you have the fruit? Is it really bare?
You know, or is your, you know, or is your. be
your spiritual free is it is it wilting or is
it need pruning you know i think there's a lot
that goes into it and i think that's a really
good i mean right and like everything you just
said that was like really that's really good
it just goes a little more and the detail without
like all of that it's just yeah i think uh someone
This was one of the conversations I had with
an Anglican talking about, well, what about repentance?
That's a work. That's something you do. And my
answer to that was that repentance is not a work
that earns salvation. It is a posture required
to receive it. Faith and repentance are two sides
of the single coin called conversion. You cannot
turn toward God, faith, without simultaneously
turning away. from sin which is repentance so
this is where i started talking to him about
let's define the terms because metanoia is the
the word used um when i was talking about like
um what's it called it's like the repentance
word metanoia is repentance is what this word
is in original greek so It literally just means
a change of mind. That's the literal definition
of metanoia is change of mind. That's what we
get repentance from. It's not just feeling sorry
like Judas had because that's metamalomia, metamomai,
something like that. But it is a fundamental
shift in worldview. It is agreeing with God that
you are a sinner and this sin is deadly. Even
with the Hebrew word, when it talks about it
in the Old Testament, like shiv is the word,
it's a change of mind that leads to a change
of direction. So, we see those two words combining,
making what that looks like when it's describing
these and referring to each other, or at least
Greek referring back to the Hebrew word of it.
So, this is where Mark 115 says that the time
is fulfilled. and the kingdom of God is at hand,
repent and believe in the gospel. Both verbs
are present imperatives, they're commands, right?
And Jesus does not offer them as multiple choice
options. He does not say repent or believe. He
links them like indubitably, like they are there.
They're one in the same coin kind of thing. Yeah,
I mean, that's very much so true because yeah
the reprint like i like that you know and everything
you keep saying it sounds like a lot of greek
to me yeah i might watch it because i read it
more than anything like i read it and so i'm
like i thought that's how you pronounce it but
i do have a book i need to start learning greek
where it actually has the how to pronounce these
things so i want to start learning so i do apologize
i botched words before like the didache, which
is early Christian doctrine. I botched it earlier
when we first started talking about it and said
didache. I called it didache, but it's didache.
Because it has a ch there, but in that Greek
it's a k instead of k. So, I'm learning. So,
that's why I'm here apologizing for your Greek.
I've been butchering English my first language
for almost 32 years. Yeah, that's great. No,
but yeah, there are two sides of the same coin.
Honestly, like you have to have both. Yeah, go
for it. You're saying it's not an aside or or,
you know, you can have one or the other. It's.
and it's a connecting it's a connection between
the two it's just yeah i i like that that was
a really good analogy well let me give another
one see for somebody that might have a hard time
think of it like the hand of a beggar right imagine
a beggar holding a cup of poison which in this
case would be sin you offer him a cup of pure
water in this instance christ to receive the
water he must drop the poison. So, the logic
is that dropping the poison, which is repentance,
is not like a meritous work. The beggar doesn't
say, I have earned the water because I did the
hard labor of dropping the cup. The reality is
that dropping the cup is simply the necessary
act of reception. You cannot hold on to your
sin and hold on to Jesus at the same time. This
is a constant reminder in Galatians 5. James
talks about it. Romans talks about it. is consistent
so that's i think that's also another analogy
to kind of wrap your mind around that because
i know it's it's a concept it's quite the concept
yeah i think that's actually yeah it's definitely
a concept i think it's a good analogy or like
you're saying earlier is there's people who oh
yeah i'm a christian but they want to hang on
to their cup yeah And unfortunately, that is,
I think, you know, it's like I say, it all goes
into kind of the same groupiness. People that
they're comfortable in their sin and they want
to stay where they're at. It also goes into the
people I feel like, you know, in a sense, the
Chris Easterns, you know, they show up a little
before Christmas, a little after Christmas, a
little before Easter. a little after Easter it's
to give the appearance and to show oh yes look
at me I'm a Christian I believe I'm you know
but the problem with it all is that it's a heart
thing and if your heart doesn't show it then
you ain't getting it like it's not because God
knows your soul he knows he knows what you're
thinking what you're actually you know doing
behind closed doors you know it is it's the truth
and it's the same thing like you know like if
your fruit is not produced produce anything good
you're not you know it's like everything we're
talking about it's not gonna show you're not
gonna it's bummer like you know you get there
oh yeah i got i i did good things i had good
works all right okay yeah you did you did some
good things oh You went on a mission with the
church. Wow, you're helpless people. But was
that just to show and act like, oh yeah, look,
I believe I do these things? Or was it because
you actually... Like a response to... Your response
to knowing it? Or was it just something cool
to say you did? Right. Our first service we ever
did, I was literally in Mexico. Like, you know,
and I was the last person I did not. I do now,
but I never had the travel bug. I'm like, I don't
want to go nowhere. I want to stay in my little
podunk town. I don't want to, you know, I want
to stay in my little, you know, my little town
where I know everybody. I know everything. Everything's
fine. You know, I, you know, I. live right down
the block from the place where i grew up from
i don't have to you know i have my gas pump i
go to every time i get gas everything's nice
and simple yeah and then i heard about the mission
trip to mexico and i'm like what okay cool me
not knowing anything about it signed up last
minute because somebody had paid for me if i
wanted to go and I did not know that I would
have to be on a plane. And that was, I was like,
well, I've never flown. I don't want to go on
this plane. What are you talking about? I thought
we're driving. I was reading to driving the car
for hours. Right. What do you mean? And, you
know, now I'm really just fully trusting the
God. Yeah. And I'm thinking like, man, now I
would love to, you know, every time now I'm like,
yeah, I want to go. I want to do it. Because
now it's in my heart. It's in that, you know,
it's that want to serve and do those things.
And once you get a taste of it, whether it's,
you know, teaching or whether it's serving in
some way you can serve or, you know, being in
the word or whatever it is that, you know, or
worship. fills your soul up it makes you think
yes i want more like in those works you actually
get to do then that is different right and that's
the difference is what god will know is when
he asks you hey did you do work did you you know
do you have faith but did you do work for me
you know all right how did you respond to me
how did you respond Yeah. Or he's like, you know,
I've never really been on a plane. That sounds
like a lot of work. Right. This is where I think
the hard. Yeah. I think this is where the hard
truth would be. If your faith hasn't changed
your life, it hasn't saved your soul because
you cannot be. indwelt by the Holy Spirit and
remain comfortable. That was another good line
right there by Jason, everybody. Let's hear it
one more time with an instant replay, Jason.
Go. If your faith hasn't changed your life, it
hasn't saved your soul because you cannot indwelt
by the Holy Spirit and remain comfortable in
the same old sins. The Spirit is not a squatter.
He is a renovator. You know, gosh dang it, man.
All these, I like all this. You know, Jesus was
a carpenter, so it makes sense to have all the
analogies. You've been talking too much with
your brother -in -law. No. No, I just, yeah,
they're right. No, in this instance, my book
is a lot of this stuff. All right, shout out.
You made it this far. Have a popcorn on me. Yeah,
it's like a... I think we'll start to wrap it
up here because I know it's getting late, but
it's been late. Yeah, it's been late. I think
faith and repentance are not two steps on a ladder.
They are two motions of the same heart, turning
your back on self repentance to fall into the
arms of Christ with faith. And I think that's
something important here. I think we touched
up on a lot of those topics and a lot of like
how to kind of maneuver around this. This is
where I highly recommend doing your research.
I highly recommend joining the Gospel Truth Project
Discord because this is where we have forums
to talk about this, chats to talk about this,
Bible studies to talk about this, etc. This is
where we discuss and talk and chat. Dylan asked
me to tell people to get my book, which is on
Amazon. Do it. Do it. Read. Reading is good for
you. uh he wanted me i wouldn't know because
i do audiobooks but reading is good for you that's
what my wife tells me he told me to mention that
it won an award so it won a christian literature
award called the chris lit award and um it got
a recommendation from the owner and the the operator
of chris lit award ceremonies to write a letter
of recommendation on top of my book saying that
they didn't know what they were going to expect
when going into my book and said that they are
recommending everybody reads my book and they
go into a lot more detail it's like a full -on
letter i wasn't expecting the letter of like
talking about my book and how they were changed
by a lot of it um because my book kind of gave
the idea it's topical it's just like each chapter
is a topic that is common christian topics and
going in depth with uh personal conviction biblical
conviction early church writings and then conclusion
and worldly conviction like what the world says
about those topics and kind of goes across all
the board across the board on those things um
but yeah no that's that's pretty much everything
i want to touch up on i don't know if you have
any final parting scenes that was really good
so yeah basically what what you're hearing guys
is that jason's book It's basically like a podcast
per chapter. So if you do enjoy this podcast,
get his book. And I'm not getting any kickbacks
from this book. I don't even know if Jason's
getting any kickbacks from this book, but I just,
you know, definitely, you know, we want to support,
you know, him and maybe I'll have to write a
book too. And then we can see who wins. And who
gets worse sales? No, I just... I've given my
book out for free to so many people because they've
reached out and said, oh, I'd love to buy your
book. Because audiobooks is recently coming out.
Yeah, I know you. I know you. You want the audio.
I get it. I get it. I need the audio. I'll get
you. I just read a lot. I'm like, what did I
just read? Oh my God. Crap. I got to read it
again. That's why I can have my notes open on
the, I hear on the, on the computer. I'm like,
I just read them three times. I'm just going
to have this spit ball when I'm thinking right
now. Yeah. I think the only thing I'll, I'll
do an excerpt for everybody is that in a nobody's
opinion. I wrote that grace without obedience
isn't biblical. It's just a hall pass. When we
look at the Greek with word metanoia, repentance,
we see it's a change of mind that leads to a
change of action. If your grace doesn't lead
to a new life, it is not the grace of the Bible.
It's the grace of modern tradition. Snaps. Snaps.
It's just, yeah, so I... That's why I recommend
reading it. Otherwise go to our blog, gospel
truth project .com. We also, a lot of the topics
I talk about in the book are from the blog because
I wanted to expand on a little bit longer. So
check those out. Those are free. So if you really
can't afford it and go on there, you can read
it. If you're like me and you like free. Right.
Blog on the GTP. I was smooth and I was so proud
of myself. Yeah. Anyways, I think this is a good
place to end it. We've been recording for a while.
It is now 1 .30 a .m., so it should probably
get up. No, it says 12 .21. No. 12 .21. Yeah,
no, it's 1 .21 here, and I get up at 7 .30 so
I can get to work. I can wake up whenever the
kids wake up. That's a good point. 4 .30. Yeah.
Well, hey, do you want to pray us out and call
it a night? Yeah, yeah, let's do that. Okay.
Let's see if I got this still. Okay. Dear Heavenly
Father, I just thank you for the opportunity
that we have to do this, Lord. I just thank you
for everyone who's going to hear this, Lord.
And I just pray that after hearing this, we would
shift our mindsets to Make sure that we are actively
doing work for you and not just saying we believe,
but actually showing how we believe so that our
works and our fruit will show it and we will
produce good things for your kingdom. We just
pray and lift up everyone who needs prayer right
now, Lord, for healing, that you would provide
healing. And that anybody who needs finances,
they would provide finances. I just thank you,
Lord, for the opportunity that we have to do
this, Lord. I just thank you for Jason. And I
just thank you, Lord, for everything. And yeah,
you are the great provider. And you give us the
grace. And you give us salvation. And I pray
anybody who is... wanting to receive you right
now lord how they would receive you lord and
they would accept you into their heart and get
to know you as lord and savior if they have any
questions don't let them be constricted by fear
but let them have a a wonder and uh intriguing
mind to ask out for those questions that they
want to receive and they need uh Just pray this
in your name. Amen. Amen. Alrighty. Well, thank
you for listening to the gospel truth project.
Uh, again, we're going to see what we can record
when we can record, but glad we got another episode
out to continue going forward. Yeah, for reals.
Yeah. All right. Cool. Well, we'll see you all
in the next episode. See y 'all. Bye.