Hey, what's going on? I'm Clarissa. I'm Courtney.
This is 30 Dirty and Dying, and we're back for
another episode. We love to be here, and we hope
that you love to listen. Yeah, we hope so. We're
doing our season of favorite things, and one
of our favorite things are real talks. We like
to talk about real things. We do. Well, and I
think we, you know, we play games, we have fun,
we laugh, we cry, we just have breakdowns live
on the air. But we want to cope with how things
really are in this stage of our life and not
this idea that we were sold of like, well, if
you don't have your shit together and you don't
have everything figured out, you're kind of failing.
We're bucking against that, you know? So it's
like real talks are a part of that. Like all
the things that kind of get glossed over. We're
not glossing over them. We're just talking about
them. Good, bad, medium, just for what it is.
Hard. Yeah. Expert mode. Easy. Yeah. So yeah,
that's part of why we do the real talks and I
really enjoy doing them. And this is one that
I've kind of wanted to do for like a super long
time. We're going to talk about toxic positivity.
What does that mean to you, Courtney? It means
that you're being overly positive. And, like,
glossing over someone's feelings. Right, which
is, like we just said, the exact thing we try
to not do about these things. Yeah, we don't
want to, like, you're invalidating someone because
you assume they have to be positive. Yeah. Like,
just get over it. Everything's going to be fine.
Yeah. Don't worry about it. But, like, you can
worry. that's valid. Yeah. It's okay to not be
okay. I totally agree. I think it, the idea of
toxic positivity is basically just like you're
saying, being overly positive, but it, it either
directly or indirectly perpetuates this idea
of people are failing if they're not feeling
a certain way, performing a certain way, life's
not going a certain way. And I don't like that.
and we don't we both don't like that so we're
gonna we're gonna kind of break it down how it
how it happens how it comes out break it down
how it's affected us we're just gonna chit chat
about it yeah real about it so i'm excited to
do that today before we dive in is there is there
any are there any updates we should give anybody
do we have any do we have any jet we haven't
like caught up in a minute uh warp tours coming
up yeah you excited yeah super excited i don't
so like One, I've never been to Warped Tour.
I know. So, like, when Warped Tour was, like,
a big deal, like, well, Coachella's going on
right now. Oh. As we're recording. Yeah. By the
time you hear this, it will not. It will not
be. It's gone. It's gone. But, like, I've never
been to that type of, like, I've been to concerts.
Like a festival. I've never been to a festival.
Okay. And I feel like at this time in my life,
in my mid -30s. one would say um it's really
not the time for that it's really not the time
for that but i'm just gonna live for it right
yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna try my best we got vip
tickets we're gonna be an air -conditioned bathroom
vip section i think that'll help yeah it is gonna
be the middle of summer yeah i'm probably gonna
die but at least i enjoyed watching 303 and young
gravy yeah And I'm really fucking excited about
that. I'm excited for you. No, listen, I think
it's similar to what we were just saying. You
got to do things that work for you. You're doing
it the way that it works for you as a 30 -something.
And if you're still having fun, who cares if
it's how you would have done it before or how
somebody else would have done it. As long as
you enjoy yourself and you get something cool
out of it, that's what matters. Yeah. I saw Trisha
Paytas. I know you did. She was so good. Did
that three -day concert thing happen yet, or
is that coming later? So that's coming up, and
it's not going to be three days anymore. We didn't
get the tickets to the first one. So we're just
going to see I Sign Kills twice. All right. In
two days. And, well, technically three times,
because they're at Warped Tour. Right, but I
mean, that's... The three days in a row is not
happening. It's just two days in a row now. Well,
that makes sense. Because the tickets, apparently,
they were surge pricing, so they're higher now.
And he's like, I'm not going to do it. And I'm
like, perfect. I've been thinking about that
a lot. I've been hoping for you. I've been praying
for you. Thank you. You're welcome. Thoughts
and prayers. Thoughts and prayers. Thoughts and
prayers. It worked. Yep. Well, but yeah, so we're
going to do a real talk today. Talks of positivity.
I think this was a great intro. And should we
go back in time? Yeah, let's go back in time.
Back in time. All right. So we chose 2011 today
because apparently that was the first time the
term toxic positivity appeared in print. Hang
on, I'll get the deets. Because I have some facts.
Okay, so apparently in J. Halberstam's 2011 book
of queer theory, The Queer Art of Failure, the
term toxic positivity appeared. The quote is
whatever he was talking about. To poke holes
in the toxic positivity of contemporary life.
Hmm. So that's why we decided to do 2011. Those
early 2010s, you know, I was in high school.
I was in college. Teen. Teen times. I was 20.
So 16, 17, 19, 20. But like smack dab in the
middle of high school. Yeah. You know, doing
that. I was living my college life. Yeah. I got
my first car. I got my Volkswagen Beetle. I remember.
Yep. His name was Vlad. And now my cat's name
is Vlad. So, I don't know. I've always been weird.
I remember you drew that picture at work of the
bug. You had your car and said... Because I wanted
to ride in it. My dream car was a bug. Yeah.
And you let me ride in it. What does the picture
have to do with that? You drew a picture saying
that your chariot awaits or something. Did I?
Yeah. I have no memory of this, but I'll take
your word for it. On, like, a piece of box. Okay,
I do have a picture. I think it was from 2012,
though, where I drew a unicorn. I drew on the
boxes, like, the pieces of, like, the flaps from
the cardboard boxes a lot. Oh, yeah. Because
I was bored as fuck. We broke them down. We got
to play with them, too. Yeah, I drew pictures
a lot. Working hard for the money, you know.
But, yeah, so I got my first car, and I did a
full, like, little photo shoot. In a church parking
lot where I learned to drive. Love that. Yeah.
It was dumb. I also have a picture. I made a
gingerbread house and I broke it, so I put a
vine up the back. And I felt the need to document
this. Now I want to go back to my Insta. I didn't
have an Instagram yet. I got an Instagram in
2012, so I don't have anything like that. I wish
I could go back by year on Instagram. Yeah, you
just gotta scroll. And then I deactivated my
Twitter a long time ago, so I don't have that
anymore. But I can tell you, I was also in a
creative writing class. And I sat in the back
with two of my friends. And one picture that
we have is one day we all wore owl jewelry. Because
do you remember how big of a fucking deal owl
jewelry was? I had owl jewelry. So did I. But
we all... had on at least one piece of owl jewelry.
So we lined up our owl jewelry and took pictures
of it and did like a little photo shoot of owls
because I don't know. Mine, I think was a gold
ring that was an owl. And then at least one of
the girls had one of those like pendants at the
owl, but it was like curtains. The body was like,
you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. I remember
that. Yep. Good times. Good times. I also had
a, around the same time, because I think in one
of the pictures I can see myself wearing it,
one of those watch rings that I wore a lot. I
had a lot of owl jewelry. You know, I was fully
in it. A lot of my stuff was from Route 21 at
that point in my lifetime. Oh, yeah. That was
sort of my sweet spot. I wore a lot of clothes
from Route 21. I really ate up the owl jewelry.
I feel like a woman. Obviously we knew each other
because I started it at the movie theater. I
did post on October 13th, 2011. All I need is
you and I. And you were definitely talking about
me. Let's be so fucking for real. So fucking
for real. You were talking about me. Duh. Just
give us a snapshot of what your life was like
in 2011 that you can remember. I mean, what were
you doing? Other than Bob. Um, 2011... It would
have been freshman going into sophomore year
of college. Right. I met, cheat on you, cheat
on me with a girl named Courtney. We called him
Robert. I don't remember much. I'm going to be
honest. I don't know what was happening in 2011
with my life. Bob was still in the picture. Yeah,
always. That's all I can say. So just a, just
a Rolodex of dudes. Love it. The youth. Yeah.
I didn't have anything like that going on. I
was a big fat virgin, um, in high school. I'm
sure I had a lot of crushes though. I remember
having a lot of high school crushes. Um, there
was this one boy. I actually think we probably
should have, I probably should have mentioned
him in the episode we did more about 2009. Cause
I remember him being more of a thing when I was
a freshman. Okay. Um, so he probably was gone
by this point, but just thinking of crushes got
me thinking about this guy. So he lived in the
same neighborhood as me. Um, I'm not, I don't,
I'll call him Theo. Okay. Um, we had French class
together and he always called me by my French
name, which was Ocien. Um, we picked. our names
they weren't like based on our actual names we
just had to pick yeah my spanish name was reina
yeah because my middle name is ray yeah that
sounds we just got to pick one and i liked ocean
and nobody else picked it so um but he called
me by that name and every day we lived in the
same neighborhood like i said and we would get
off the bus and he we didn't like talk very much
or anything but every day we got off the bus
he would like call my name and tell me i was
beautiful And then that was it. He was, like,
not a weirdo either. Like, we were, he was cool.
We talked. We were friends. But every day he
did that. And I, but I was, like, you know, 14,
15. I didn't know how to deal with it. Yeah.
And then he moved away before, I don't know.
I ended up having a crush on him after a while.
Like, at first I didn't because I was just, like,
I don't know what to do with this. And then he
moved away. Oh. I went to the beach for the first
time in 2011. That's cool. Yeah. My cool story,
bro. Yep. That was 2011. Good times. Yeah, I
decided to go back picture -wise. Yeah. This
was one of my favorite pictures. People were
like, oh my god, you're so skinny. Yeah, because
you were doing the foreword. Oh, doing the foreword.
I have a coach phone case. Wow. Wow. You're really
something, ain't ya? Something. In the dorm.
Ooh. That was actually, that's a really good
picture of me. It is a nice picture. My hair
looks really nice. It does. I went to the zoo.
Nice. There's the owl picture. That's funny.
Yeah. With two people that I'm no longer friends
with. Fuck them. Fuck them. Fuck them. I drew
a cartoon. I drew myself as a panda and one of
my friends as a squirrel. Panda, panda, panda.
And I felt the need to share this. I got bras
and Elena. Ooh, look at this cardigan I had on
with studs on the shoulders. Look how badass
I thought I was. Look at that. Well, look at
me in my zebra print. Ooh, I'm sure I can find
it. And my Hollister shirt. Ooh, I've got one
with, you know those shirts that also had an
attached cardigan and a belt? You know what I'm
talking about? Check it. Had one. Wore it all
the time. I went to my first football game and
last. I also loved this picture of me, too, back
in the day. That's a nice picture. Yeah. You're
so blonde. I know. I always think of you as a
blonde. Even though your hair is, like, brown
now. Yeah. If I'm thinking about you, which I'm
always thinking about you, duh, I'm thinking
of a blonde. Blonde me. Yeah. So, like, this
was peak blonde me. Yes. Ever since. That's,
like, what your hair color was when I met you.
Mm -hmm. Like, 2011. Yeah. So. And then I dyed
it. I went on a vacation. I got to take my friend.
The side swoop. This wasn't my reality, but I
also remember the 2011, 2012, 2013 tanning had
really taken everybody into a chokehold. I did
not tan. I did not tan. I've been in a tanning
bed one time. I did not enjoy it. I got out.
I was like, I'm destined to be whitefish, and
I'm okay with it. Um, but when I was a senior,
I think I got a few, I know, not think, but I
got a few spray tans. Um, I got a couple spray
tans. Yeah. I got like a spray tan before prom.
I got like a, like a couple of times. Um, but
I did, I know a lot of people were big fans of
the tanning and they would do the thing with
the little, uh, little sticker to show how dark
they'd gotten. Uh huh. Yeah. Did you do that?
No. With your spray tan? No. Oh, okay. The people
I know who did it only did it when they were
frying themselves. Gotcha. Yeah, that was really
bad. But it reminded me. It was quite a time.
I hope everybody's doing okay. Get your skin
cancer checks. Guys, if you were a teenager in
the 2010s, you're going to have to go get a skin
cancer check soon. It's a good idea, especially
if you were tanning. I'm not hating on you for
it, but we all made mistakes. Yeah. I'm gonna
go into some facts. Okay, go into some facts.
Let's go out facts. Do you remember Borders?
Bookstore? Fuck yeah, I do. Filed bankruptcy.
Aww. I went to Walden Books mostly, which also
doesn't exist anymore. Nope. Chromebooks went
on sale for the first time. I remember those.
Snapchat was founded. You know, I've never had
a Snapchat. I still use it. I don't use it. So,
speaking of Snapchat, Americans spent, on average,
2 .7 hours per day online. That seems fair. It's
almost seven hours today. Well, yeah. Fashion
trends. Here we go. Here comes the cold water.
Hair feathers. Kesha! Fedoras. I wore fedoras.
Bubble skirts. Boho headbands. Shut up. Statement
tights. Shut up. Maxi skirts. Stop, I had so
many. Platform pumps. I didn't have those. Tribal
prints. Ooh, yeah. Oversized cocktail rings.
The owl ring was an oversized cocktail ring.
Tunic dresses. Neon everything. Everything. And
skull print scarves. Yes! Oh, what a - It was
honestly - I saw a meme the other day, and I'm
gonna quote it. The air tasted different. From
like 2010 to 2014. It did. The air tasted different.
Sort of like the perfume at Route 21. That's
how it tasted. And I loved every second of it.
Hollister Abercrombie was like, I was trying
real cool. Yeah, but I remember the Route 21,
like the tribal prints, like you were saying.
I had so many pairs of those shorts that were
like as thin as a fucking piece of tissue and
ripped after you washed them one time. And they
were all like weird tribal prints and not real
tribal prints. Just like bullshit. Neon. Neon
everything. Loved it. Loved it. The world population
reached 7 billion. Too many. Look what we did.
That's 7 billion too many people. Yep. Anyways,
the popular baby names. Okay. Jacob, Mason, William,
Jaden, Sophia. Jaden. Jaden. Sophia, Isabella,
Emma, and Olivia. Okay. Olivia. Yeah, Olivia
got real popular there for a while. Of the world's
4 billion mobile phones, 1 billion were smartphones.
Wow. Nearly 1 billion didn't even have texting
capabilities. I'm trying to think. 2011, I think
I had like an HTC. I had the HTC. I think it
was called the HTC Touch. It was a touchscreen.
It was a touchscreen, yeah. It was one of the
first touchscreens. I had the HTC Evo. I didn't
have that one. Mine was like, it was basically
like a square. It was almost like BlackBerry
sized, but it was a touchscreen and I hated it
was a touchscreen. I absolutely hated it. I did
not think it was going to catch on. I was wrong.
Now it's all we have. Yeah. And I hate it. I
missed the, cause I had the keyboards. I had
like the rumor and the, like I had, I loved those.
I never, so I had, before I got the Evo, I had
the BlackBerry Pearl. Ooh, fancy. If I could
go back to a BlackBerry, I would. I had an LG
rumor. And I loved that phone. If I could have
that phone again, I would. And then before that,
I had kind of like the early phase of, it had
a keyboard, but it flipped up horizontal. It
was the shape of an eight. And it kind of, instead
of, it didn't slide, it flipped into a keyboard.
The brand was, I might be mispronouncing this,
so I'm sorry. Kyocera. Okay. And, um, I don't
know what the like model was, but yeah, that
was, and that's when I fell in love with the
keyboard thing. And I, I, I would have a rumor
today. Bring it back. I'll do it. Fuck it. I'll
do it. Bring back the rumor. Blackberry, come
back. Yeah. We miss you. We miss you. Like if
you can have, it's touchscreen slash keyboard.
Yeah. If we can have both, I will be happy. I
want the Blackberry Pearl so bad. Yeah. I want
it back. Where are you? And I'm so sorry. Netflix
introduced online video streaming service. Yeah,
because before that you got it in the mail. You
got DVDs in the mail with Netflix. It's like
Blockbuster, but not. It comes to your house.
Comes to your house. Redbox, do you remember
that? Yeah. Oh, man. Good times. Samsung launched
the Galaxy Note. I had a Galaxy. I had a couple
Galaxy phones, I think, early. I did not. I had
a couple. I didn't care for them. No shade, just
it wasn't for me. Mike had the Galaxy Note when
I, not the first one probably, but he had a Galaxy
Note. All right. I have the most visited web
destinations and there's a ton of them. All right.
We'll pick like, pick like five and we'll go
out with this. Okay. Um, those are obvious. Google,
Facebook, Yahoo, YouTube. Find some good ones.
Come on. Blogspot. Ooh, okay. Blogs. MapQuest.
Yes. Was still big. Uh, I like this one. Photo
bucket? Dude, I was on photo bucket 24 -7 -3
-6 -5. I use it a lot for my fan fiction. I don't
want to talk about it. You're listening to 30,
Dirty, and Dying. If you're in your late 20s
and your early 30s and don't quite feel like
an adult, but you certainly don't feel like a
kid anymore, you may have found the right podcast.
Every week we wade through our own existential
crisis and figure out what life is supposed to
look like on this side of 30. and relive some
of our favorite memories from years gone by.
We'd love to have you along for the ride, so
make sure you follow and find us on social media
at 30dirtyanddying to keep up with what we're
doing next. Toxic positivity! We're talking about
toxic positivity. So we said a little bit at
the beginning kind of what it means to us, but
like, so if I had to ask you, like, if you felt
like somebody was being toxically positive, what
would that kind of look like? Um, I feel like...
Just the world in general is just very, very
toxic. Yes. Yeah. Like if you have a problem,
it'll be fine. People have it worse than you.
Yeah. That like, it's just a lot of gaslighting.
It kind of is. It's kind of sold as this idea
of like being optimistic. And there's a difference.
Yeah. Without being toxic. Yeah. But it's just
like if everything, everything is not all right.
No. And that's fine. There's optimism and then
there's also realistic. Yeah. But when you're
not being realistic, then it can become toxic
positivity. Well, and I feel like optimism is
like, I'm acknowledging what reality is. I hope
this happens. Yeah. Hope is one thing. Toxic
positivity to me is I'm ignoring reality, good,
bad, whatever. And I'm just like saying that
if you're not ignoring it and you're not thinking
about it this way instead, you're wrong. Right.
And I don't love that. Like, there's a difference
in hoping for something and trying to cancel
reality out, for lack of a better term. And that's
where I feel like it's different. And look, I'll
be the first one to say right now, I'm a pessimist.
I am a big fucking pessimist. I'm so awful. You
do not want this dark cloud in your stratosphere
if you're an optimist or even, like, just kind
of medium. But I've been trying to get better
at it over the years, but I do think it's hard
when the It almost feels like the norm has become
a level of toxic positivity of, like, you have
to focus on the good all the time. That's hard
for some people, and I also don't think it's
fair. No. And it's not healthy. No. It's, like,
fine to be open about the fact that something's
not going well or that you don't feel like it's
going well. Yeah. I think it's, you said at the
beginning, it's really invalidating. Mm -hmm.
So I get what you're saying there. I think it's
the same kind of thing. The invalidating thing
is big. Yeah, I do have like a definition. Yeah,
go for it. Okay. So toxic positivity refers to
the excessive and unhealthy focus on maintaining
a positive attitude, even in the face of difficult
situations and the denial or minimum. Minimalization.
Thank you. Of negative emotions. It's the idea
that negative emotions are inherently bad and
should be avoided even when they are natural
and appropriate response to circumstances. Yeah.
I can speak to that a little bit because I remember
in one of my rounds of therapy I did a few years
ago about I have trichotillomania and it's like
a compulsive disorder. Things my therapist and
I like really had to focus on was got to stop
assigning a negative meaning to this behavior.
Yeah. I'm not saying you just accept it and it's
fine and we don't work on it, but because you're
thinking of it as inherently very bad to do this,
it's creating this cycle of shame and then you
do it more and you feel worse about it and your
own self -esteem is being negatively affected
because you feel like you can't stop doing this
terrible thing. We have to take the negativity
away from this action. And just make it more
about like what you want to do and what you don't.
It's neutral. It's got to become neutral. And
I feel like there's something similar in the
world of like toxic positivity. Because if feeling
something negative is inherently a bad thing
to do. Then you're just going to. It's natural
to have a negative feeling. To be sad. To be
angry. To be disappointed. Yeah. And if you tell
yourself that that's a bad thing for you to feel.
You become a bad person. You start feeling like
ashamed. That you can't be as positive. And you
can't look on the sunny side of bullshit or whatever.
And it creates this cycle of negative self -esteem
and never reaching your goals or whatever because
your perspective is all fucked up. And I think
it's a similar thing. I don't know. That definition
sounds like it to me. Yeah. And then when you
get into that cycle, then you're going to start
taking it out on other people. Yeah. And making
them feel bad. Yes. And then it's just like what
society has become. Honestly, it's what society
has become. Yeah. And it's, I almost think it
lends itself to that idea of like trauma Olympics
or whatever. Like, well. how dare you feel bad
about what you've gone through if I've gone through
worse or if I know someone else has gone through
worse and you're not being positive about it.
And it's like, dude, none of this matters. Everybody's
experience is their own. I mean, if you're full
-blown 24 -7, 365 Eeyore, I can understand people
being like, dude, you gotta stop. But it's really
not that for most people. Even with people who
do a lot of dark humor or whatever, nuance is
important. And if you're not letting people have
any nuance in how they react honestly to negative
things, whatever that means for them, the standard
is different for everybody. Yeah. I feel like
that gets into the realm of toxic positivity
and I don't like it. Yeah. Like for instance,
say like I've had a lot of death in my life.
Yeah. And I have a lot of people in my life who
have never like had any death in their life.
It's as if like someone died in their family
and they're upset. I'm like, well, I've had way
more people die. Suck it up. Yeah. That's the
wrong thing. You should just be glad that this
person's not dead. Yeah. Or that you didn't lose
this guy. Yeah. I don't even have a mom. So why
are you, like, pissed off that you don't have
a great aunt? Yeah. You know what I mean? You
should really be grateful for who you have. Yeah.
And that's, I hate that so much. Me too. Like,
just. Just let it, let me feel. Yeah. Just let
me feel. Let me feel. And this is, I do think,
though, it's really easy, like, for me, as I've
said, I'm a pessimist, right? To be. really anti
-toxic positivity like if you're trying to be
too positive at me fuck you and everything you
stand for get out i mean sometimes i do overly
positive to piss people off you do but that's
for certain things yeah it's not because i'm
being toxic positive no you're not really genuinely
pushing about it no i just mean in general for
me because i am pessimistic i know that my line
for this is probably like not fair Some of it's
probably, but one thing I've noticed that I'm
doing recently, because it made me think of this
when you said, let me feel, is I do think, you
know, any kind of perspective can get toxic if
there's too much of it, right? Yeah. So toxic
positivity, obviously. Toxic negativity. But
also, and this is something I'm realizing, like,
literally just very recently that I think I struggle
with is toxic apathy. Like. I don't do well with
feelings. Mood apathetic. Yes. I don't do well
with feelings I never have. But the last few
years of my life, I've, you know, I've sought
a lot of mental health treatment. I've worked
on it and I have sort of expanded my feelings.
Yeah. And my like emotional capacity. But it's
still not easy for me. And I think sometimes
like when somebody asks or if it's like, Hey,
how's it going? Or is everything okay? Or whatever.
i'm fine i'm always fine i'm always gonna be
fine whatever even when something is obviously
wrong right right and instead of like outwardly
i'm saying like to other people as i interact
with people instead of just being super negative
about it or if i am it's it's it's dark humor
it's casual it's whatever but i've noticed that
like my i have to be apathetic about it because
i don't want to get caught in this like feeling
cycle and I don't want to feel vulnerable in
front of other people. So it can definitely be
like a defense mechanism. And for me, I've noticed
myself doing that with the apathy. You know,
I've had, I'm not going to get into specifics,
but I've had a lot of like lifestyle type changes
in my, in my life pretty recently. And if anyone
asks, if any, my whole thing is like, I've got
to, I'm okay. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine.
And in general, in a lot of ways it is like on
paper, it's fine, but it's like, I'm not letting
myself feel anything beyond just being fine and
okay and prepared and blah blah blah blah blah
outwardly to other people and it's like uh it's
like i don't care i am apathetic about it and
if it's a defense mechanism that i'm doing because
at some point it catches up to you if you're
toxically positive if you're toxically negative
toxically apathetic it's going to catch up to
you at some point. In the wise words of Bo Burnham,
apathy is a tragedy and boredom is a crime. I
don't really know what to do with that. I just
wanted to stick some Bo Burnham in there. I mean,
always a good time for that, I suppose. And especially
with just the world we live in. Yeah. Well, and
it's easy to want to say, oh, I want to focus
on the positive or I just want everything to
be fine and I'm not going to get too into the
weeds and doom scroll and blah, blah, blah. But
at some point you do have to feel the feeling.
You have to feel the feeling. You have to face
the facts. Yeah. You've got to let yourself.
You've got to live. Yeah. Because if you keep
holding back, if you keep, like, you've stopped
living. Yeah. And you can't stop living. I mean,
you can't stop living. Look. But don't purposefully
stop living. Don't do that. Don't purposefully
stop living. One day we're going to die. No,
but I can say. But you know what I mean. Yeah.
Like, when I was talking a minute ago about,
like, my. past emotional capacity. It was almost
nothing. Yeah. I'm not saying I never had any
feelings. I wasn't a psycho, but what I am saying
is I, I kind of just shut myself off a lot so
that I wouldn't feel anything. And look, I think
that I'm wired a little different than some people.
I don't think I would ever have the most, like,
even if nothing ridiculous happened to me, I
think I probably would have been a little less
on the emotional scale than some people, but
I have, I've had to rewire myself throughout
my adult life to try and have any kind of life,
like you're saying. To emote is to be human.
And that doesn't always have to be something
positive. You can't just focus on the positive.
Right. Well, I mean, going back to what you said,
like, when people ask you, like, how are you
doing? And you say fine, even though you're not
fine. But that's just what society has, like,
pushed on us. Like, because if you're, like...
At a meeting at work. And someone's like, hey,
how are you doing? They don't expect you and
they don't want you. No. To trauma dump on them
of like the problems that you're actually having.
Yeah. They just want you to say good and move
on so they can continue with their day. Yeah.
Because that's what society wants us to do. Like
they don't want to have these conversations,
which. And it's like, not every setting is for
it. I get it. No, no. I'm not going to talk about
my dead mom at a work conference. No, like if
the cashier says, hey, are you doing it? I'm
not going to. Not good, Cheryl. Like, I'm not
going to do that. But I found myself not even
doing it with like friends and family and people
who know and care. Totally fine if I said, man,
I'm not okay. Or. yeah, things are okay here,
but I'm actually feeling this kind of way about
it as I'm navigating this. That feeling of needing
to be fine, I don't think I'm alone in that.
I think it permeates. And some of it is a fear,
at least for me, of the person who's toxically
positive. I don't want to face toxic positivity
and be... vulnerable finally and say oh my god
i am not doing good and suck it up it's gonna
be fine yeah or like well you know you should
really focus on the good things in your life
and well you know it could be worse or like have
you tried meditating have you tried like dieting
and losing weight but like i i don't want that
i do not want to have that interaction and sometimes
i think that like the toxic positivity being
kind of like the standard, like you were saying
earlier, makes people who are like myself, who
are, who are inclined to pull themselves up away
from people, go further into that hole and be
like, you know what? No. I can't fuck with this.
Yeah. I actually have like an example, semi like,
not an example, but like just like a little blurb.
Okay. So like if you're expressing like disappointment
or sadness and someone says happiness is a choice.
Okay. And that suggests that these like feelings
of like negative emotion is their own fault.
Yeah. But it's literally just being human. Yes.
People are sad. People get sad. People get depressed.
People like have anxiety. People feel. upset
and sometimes happiness is not a it's not a choice
no like if i if i could choose to just be happy
i wouldn't need medication but also that would
be you would be you would need medication that
would be delusional that would not be a full
-fledged human experience wired different like
people are different yeah people's lives are
different people go through different things
and it's not a choice I genuinely believe too
that anybody who is like always happy, something
is fucking wrong with you. Something is wrong
with you. And I don't know if it's really that
you're choosing to do this or that something
is broken in your brain, but like how do you
expect to really connect with anyone on a human
level? It's human to feel positive and negative
feelings. How do you expect to empathize or sympathize
with? anyone going through anything if your knee
jerk is to say is not even to say to just like
bathe everything and it has to be positive because
doing that you're pushing out anything negative
and i hate to be the one that breaks this to
you i really do the world is kind of a negative
place yeah there's a bunch of terrible shit that
happens every day there's a bunch of positive
shit that happens every day too i'm not taking
away from that but you can't take away from the
negative by just like bleeding positive everywhere.
You can't, you can't do either one. And that's
what it becomes. Yeah. And like, you can like,
for me, like I've, you know, depression is a
more recent thing for me. Yeah. But like, I,
it's more of like, it's an effort. Like I do
have to put forth effort to put myself in situations
that do help my mood. Yeah. Me too. So like,
it's not like, yeah, I'm, I guess technically
I am choosing to be happy, but at the same time,
like I'm just, I just know what can like help.
I'm choosing to experience something positive
and hope that I can receive it and that I can
actually affect my feelings. But I also know,
and this is where it gets a little dicey as somebody
with depression or depressive episodes. Sometimes.
It just doesn't work. It's not going to do anything.
And that's fine. Yeah. I hope it does for you,
whoever you are out there. But for other people,
it's not always going to do that. People have
different experiences. But one thing I found
was a breakdown, and this is just off of Alicia
Peterson's blog. Okay. I don't know who this
person is. It was published via Medium, so it's
probably like an article or something. But I
liked the infographic of it. And it's putting
together... Toxic positivity versus genuine optimism
and how that looks different in like common statements.
Okay. So like, one, being negative won't help
you. Instead of that, you might say, it's important
to let it out. Is there anything I can do to
make this easier for you? Good vibes only. I
love you through all your emotional states. I
would absolutely bust into a million pieces if
somebody said that to me. You'll get over it.
Ugh. Fuck you. You are so resilient and your
strength will get you through it. I think that's
better. Yeah. You know, it's not just because
the getting over it thing sucks. But getting
through it, to me, it just sounds different because
it's like getting over it is like forget about
it. It doesn't even matter. Getting through it
is acknowledging the experience as a whole. Right.
But that's just me. I don't know. And that's
just like how things are. Yeah. Like you don't
really get over things, especially like something
as serious as like death. Or, like, it just,
it gets easier. Yeah. But it doesn't just go
away. Literally the only way out is through.
The only way out is through. And that acknowledges
it a little better. Because getting over it again
is very out of sight, out of mind. Which is,
I think, like the crux of toxic positivity. Yeah.
Because it's not dealing with any negative emotions.
No. It's... Ignoring the problem, pushing it
back, and then you just snap. La la la la la.
That's basically what it is to anything negative.
And... Smile. Crying won't help. I always cry.
What do you mean? It's okay to cry. We all do.
Can I get you a tissue or a hug? Dude, who is
this person? Alicia, please come stay here. Just
stay positive. That's the biggest one. Things
are tough right now. Do you want to talk about
it or do you want to do something lighthearted?
I think that one kind of goes to what you were
saying. Like, you can try to do things that are
positive and have positive experiences, but you
can't force the feeling to come from the experience.
No. It's, you know, it's like you can still try
to do positive things. Right. Like, when I'm
feeling, like, low, I'll just re -watch a show
that I enjoy. That I know it just brings me joy.
Like, if I want a good laugh, I want to watch
Psych or Parks and Rec. Yeah. That's just...
Those are just like my like feel good shows.
Yeah, I do the same thing. Even when, no matter
what, I'm going to laugh and I'm going to have
a good time and then I can just keep going. I
do the same thing or like sometimes I'll like
watch a movie that I know will really like make
me think and make me like distract my mind a
little bit and get into other things. But I also
know that sometimes I will sit there and it will
not work. And I can't, I try not to beat myself
up when it doesn't work. Yeah. Because this is
just me experiencing being human. Hey. Thanks
for listening to 30 Dirty and Dying, the show
for millennials by millennials. We get real about
chronic illness, burnout, nostalgia, and why
we aren't exactly thriving. If that sounds like
you, join us every Thursday for new episodes.
Now, back to the show. I think toxic positivity
really affects how people sort of view their
own lives and move forward in their lives and
sort of take stock of if they're doing enough,
if they've got their shit together, if whatever.
And I really think it does come down to like
a toxic positivity thing. I don't know. That's
how I always view that. It's like you should
have your shit together. Yeah, it's toxic positivity,
but it's also like based on a long time ago,
people, like there was the home life that was
expected. Yes. And outside of toxic positivity,
but like in your early 20s, you get married,
have a kid, you have this family. That's just
is how it's supposed to be. Yeah. And it has
like continued through time and the expectations
are there. So when people are in their late 20s,
early 30s, they still haven't found someone to
love. They're just like, I'm so far behind. But
every person has their own timeline. Not one
person is the same. old -fashioned idea of what
should happen is old yeah it's because they died
at age 50 okay like going to war okay but like
you know what i mean like the times were different
the expectations were different it's different
i also think though it came down to a level of
perception because here's the thing there are
people who still have that exact same timeline
maybe you got married maybe but what i'm saying
is The timeline may be the exact same, but maybe
you do, you've maybe checked all the boxes and
you feel like, man, I still don't feel like I've
got this all figured out. I still feel like I'm
just making this up as I go along. I still feel
like I'm in a really chaotic place in my life.
And I think that's because the perception was
like toxically positive of like, if you do these
things, it'll be great. You win. And it's like,
you can do all those things, but you will probably
still feel like this. Yeah. Because I think this
is how we all feel. really that like we're just
making this up some days are great some days
aren't great uh it's rarely exactly what you
pictured even if you check all the boxes the
way you feel about it is probably not how you
thought you feel about it i'm not saying you
regret your whole life i'm just saying it's gonna
be different but nobody talked about that no
you could not be like man i don't know how i
don't know I don't know if I should do this.
Like, growing up, it's just like, oh, our parents
had it together. Yeah. They sure fucking didn't.
No, but they made it seem like they did because
they were checking the boxes and they weren't
talking about anything else. No. And now I have
to go to therapy because nobody else fucking
would. You're welcome, everyone. Toxic positivity
can be like all those sayings and things that
we kind of listed a little bit ago, but I also
think it can just come down to... like the perception
that you think you're supposed to have about
different phases of your life. It's not saying
you got to hate it or regret it or not like it,
but you can also see the full picture. You can
be living your absolute dream life and still
be having a really bad day. You'll still be having
really bad times or something can be happening
within the midst of your narrative right now
that's really negative and bad and you don't
like it. It doesn't mean that your whole life
is trash. No, it just means that we have bad
times. Yeah, but you don't have to ignore it.
You can still be like, things are going well,
but this isn't. And that's okay. Yeah, the full
circle is important. There, I found this quote.
It says, it's about tox pox. Tox pox. Toxic positivity.
Toxoplasmosis. Toxic shock syndrome. That's what
this episode is about. Take your tamps out right
now. Take your tamp out. It's shaming causes
guilt, avoids authentic human emotion, prevents
growth. It creates a false narrative of reality,
often causing you to question what you think
and feel. That's exactly, I think that covers
it. That's pretty much everything we've talked
about throughout the conversation. kind of in
a bulleted list. Yeah. I think that covers it.
It really does have a lot of effects. People
think it's just pessimists wanting to stay pessimists
or wanting to reject positive things. And it's
like, no, it's more than just sayings that aren't
great. It's more than just you hurt my feelings.
It's mental health and it affects relationships.
It affects how we interact. And I think until
we get real about that, it's going to keep happening.
I do genuinely feel like it's rooted in the idea
that mental health doesn't exist. Yeah. Because,
you know, therapy was not a thing for the longest
time. So that's where, like, it came from. But,
like, now that we're actually talking about mental
health, we're actually getting help. We're realizing
that it matters. Yeah. We can start pushing away
this. Yeah. And that mental health and these
feelings and thoughts that come up are not always
within someone's control. And we have to be able
to embrace that. And be okay with that. And deal
with it in another way. Like, I think something.
Like, you see this a lot. And I know a few people
who, like, they don't go to therapy. They don't
whatever. But they're really big on, like, the
self -help train. Which, like, look. If that
works for you, go for it. Whatever you want to
do. But I will say that there's a lot of that
that's rooted in this, like, you have to. You
choose. The choice. The choices. And you have
to, you know, grab your fucking life by the horns.
And I'm not saying that's all bad. But what I
am saying is you can't self -help book your way
through a mental health issue. No. You just can't.
I'm sorry. I'm not saying it can't help you at
times. There can't be positive things that come
out of it. Genuinely positive things. Yeah. Not
toxic positive things. But it's not going to
do the work for you. No. Because again, you're
not going to really, until you get really honest
about it and what's causing it and what's not,
and that you might not have any control over
this. And if you do, it probably doesn't have
anything to do with what you think it does. You
know, like, self -help is not the same as therapy,
is not the same as mental health care. I'm not
saying it can't have a good effect on people,
but it's not the same thing. We've got to stop
equating the two. We've got to stop doing that.
I see that happen so much of, like, self -help
and self -care and blah, blah, blah being...
with mental illness, mental health care. It's
not the same thing. I'm not saying there is an
overlap, but it's not, they're not equal things.
They're different, and they mean different things
to different people, and you've got to be able
to acknowledge that. Would it be nice to get
a massage? Yeah, self -care. Is that going to
cure my depression? No. It's sure not, but will
I feel good for like an hour? Yeah. They are
not going to cure this. You know what I mean?
There are different things that are happening.
And I will say, as someone who has sought therapy
several times in my life from different therapists
for different issues, not one therapist has ever
said to me, you should be more positive. No.
Have you tried thinking positively? Have you
tried positively manifesting this? No one has
ever fucking said that to me. No, and maybe they
say it to other people if they have, you know,
have fun in the comments. But like, that's, that
only goes so far. Yeah. Is really the point.
And if you can just acknowledge that as you interact
with people who are of different experiences,
that would be fucking great. That's all I have
to say about that. I agree. Well, thanks for
listening. Yeah. I enjoy talking about this kind
of stuff. Me too. Tell us what other Real Talks
you want us to cover. We're always... Willing
to look into new things and deep dive into our
feelings about subjects and do some research,
whatever. Courtney loves research. I love research.
Hell yeah. So let us know what you guys want
to hear next. We are getting toward the end of
season seven. Whoa! Which is crazy. So make sure
you're all caught up and tell us what you want
next because I assume we're going to keep going.
I'd like to. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Probably.
So let us know what you want to hear next. And
remember, it's okay to not be okay. It is okay
to not be okay. And I just want to feel. Yep.
If you want to feel, if you want to laugh through
the pain, you want someone to commiserate with,
check out the rest of the episodes. We got a
lot of them. Yep. Have a great day, guys. Or
don't. Whatever the fuck you need to do, it's
fine. Yeah, bye. Bye. Babette ate oatmeal.