Hello and welcome.
And thanks for listening to Carbon Climate, an industry podcast that discusses all things
energy, carbon and sustainability.
We also like to talk about what's getting hot, besides from our planet.
I'm your host Anya and today I'm joined by my Carbon Climate co-host Catherine.
Hi Catherine.
Hey, good to be here.
So yeah, can you tell us a bit about yourself?
Well before that, why is your week then?
Yeah, my week has been really good.
I'm just trying to cook up the nice weather that we've had here in Bells class.
I was last weekend at Helens Bay, which was super nice.
I love Helens Bay.
Yeah, it was nice.
And yeah, obviously I've been watching up with season two of Baylight.
Oh my goodness, I'm on episode three.
I finished episode four last night, so I'm going to try and finish that.
Oh my goodness, yeah.
By the way, I love that when an EPBA series comes on.
Yeah.
And it's like, yeah, this is what I'm going to do for the next six weeks.
Exactly, both, it's like, what's next five days.
Oh brilliant.
Well, thanks for having us.
Can you tell us your job title?
Yeah, so I'm a digital communications officer at the Carbon Electricity Project.
Oh brilliant, the Carbon Electricity Project in Manchester.
Very good.
And how long have you been in this sector?
In terms of marketing, I've been in this sector ever since I graduated, which was five years
ago this year, which is slightly depressing.
Oh, here I don't like, I graduated in 2017.
Yeah, oh my God.
And it's, you know, you think, I'll say, yeah, that was only last year.
I'm like, wait, no, it's not.
It's over 10 years.
It's like yesterday, it's crazy.
But yeah, so I've been doing marketing ever since then.
And shortly after I graduated, I picked up a volunteer role with the Carbon Electricity
Project.
So I guess you could say I've been in the environmental sector ever since then.
My first volunteer position was the social media volunteer.
My background is like fully marketing.
But yeah, I guess just like spiraled from there.
And that led me now to a full time career in climate communications.
That's amazing.
Well, well done.
Climate communications, that's such a cool job title.
Or just after you look down at climate communications.
Yeah, it is pretty cool.
Even I remember when I was at uni, like I don't think a role like that existed.
And it's great to see in the last couple of years, like more of that coming about.
100%.
Yeah.
I mean, there's so much more range there for people who want to get into the environmental
sector and range that wasn't there.
Even I didn't believe that, you know, a job like that was possible whenever I graduated.
So yeah, lots of amazing opportunities.
And yeah, I mean, my average job is a green dog.
Yeah.
I like that.
I usually like when the podcast like when talking people will say something and then
it's like, you know, that's really cool.
Like, you know, I like that.
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
Well, thanks for planning to see that go when secondary school.
Did you ever envisage yourself in the role you are in now?
Honestly, no, I don't think I ever would have imagined myself being in this role in
marketing.
Yes, I would have pictured myself being in marketing.
I'm obviously I was 18 whenever I applied to do marketing at uni.
So yeah, I'm not surprised that I'm still in the marketing sector.
But yeah, I think back then, like I was like very interested in makeup and beauty and hair
and everything, you know, like most bears in Northern Ireland are.
So yeah, I think I probably that's the area I would have seen myself going into.
I'm working on my exciting makeup campaigns or anything like beauty related, working with
big names in the beauty industry and what not.
But I suppose just like throughout uni and as I got a bit older, my values came and I
became I became much more aware of the present challenge of climate change.
And yeah, it led me to where I am today.
Yeah, just changes in my personal lifestyle made me look like for both volunteer, the
volunteer position that I ended up being successful for.
So yeah.
One of the things that I like at school, like one of the things I'm trying to like pinpoint
with this podcast in that at school, like, you know, maybe they've put like, OK, you
have to go into this type of role or that type of role.
Like, so even as I was at school, I was going to be a zoologist.
And then I kind of realized I'd be good at biology, which I wasn't.
I was getting straight C's.
And yeah, like so even I didn't know this role existed when I was at school.
And then it's so it's great.
Like there seems to be a really great increase in that.
And it's great to see like I'm going to grip us in the same generation, our generation,
like, you know, yeah, it's like, OK, all these green jobs, like because as you said,
like every job is a green job.
Like it seems to be anyone who talks to you.
There's some element of carbon or the environment in it.
Yeah, yeah, 100 percent.
And yeah, like just going back to that as well, you know, what you said about school,
like you don't imagine that like certain jobs exist.
Like we're taught like one pathway after uni and just to like always check on job boards or
yeah, maybe like looking at a more corporate avenue.
But I think for me, what helped was like following my interest and finding a job in that pathway
as well. So, yeah, I mean, in terms of like other people who might be looking to get down
like a similar avenue, that's like a big piece of advice I would have is like follow your interests
and the rest will follow.
Yeah, that's like that.
You're coming off with some really good stuff here.
Oh my God.
But really, thanks for the introduction, Catherine.
So as you said, you work for the Carbon Literature Project and just a bit of definition of what
carbon literacy is. So carbon literacy, carbon literacy is one of those words that, you know,
if you say it too much that like, you know, it's a bit of a tongue twister if you keep repeating it.
Yeah, exactly. So I'm reading this and I'm going like I'm going to be very careful with how I say this.
So carbon literacy is an awareness of the carbon dioxide costs and impacts in everyday activities
and the ability and motivation to reduce emissions on an individual, community and organizational basis.
Yeah.
And the term carbon literacy began to gain prominence in 2009 when it emerged in the development
of the Climate Change Action Plan for Manchester, which is where the carbon literacy project,
your employer is based.
So it's come full circle. It's all connected.
Yeah, it is.
But yeah, like so the plan aims to lower emissions by reducing demand and the use of energy
and create a low carbon culture.
Yeah, inspiring a low carbon culture shift is what we're working towards and that applies to everyone everywhere.
So nice. Oh my goodness.
I actually, one of the things I like to do with the podcast is come up with some titles,
but trying to get them into puns.
Yeah.
And so when I was reading about low carbon culture, I was like, low carbon culture.
I was trying to think if I say low carbon, sure, it's our culture.
Like, like what people, because you know the way like people like there seems to be a Northern Irish thing.
It's part of our culture.
Oh yeah.
I like that.
I was waiting to see what you would call this.
Yeah.
There was so much. There was like I did one about like carbon literacy.
It was something about reading and I was like, oh sure.
That's got literate with or you come in a literate with the literacy or something.
Yeah, definitely.
Or it's hashtag carbon lit.
That is it.
Oh my goodness.
That is the new title.
Like, well, I love how everyone's listening to this.
Like, everyone's like they're figuring out the title mid episode.
Yeah, we're just brainstorming.
Yeah.
I thought I used like, oh my goodness, I used all the carbon ones because one of my first things was like Ohio Carbine, like, you know, Carbine.
Yeah.
Carbine.
Yes.
But OK, you should just take this job now because hashtag carbon lit is like the best thing I've heard.
So yes, I'm actually I'm typing that in the script now just so I don't forget it.
Carbon lit.
So you're saying you're.
Again, I'm going to like mispronounce the title, but I can't like climate communications officer for the carbon literacy project.
Could you take us through the type of work you do, like what sort of maybe projects you're involved in or tasks you do in day to day?
Yeah, so my role title is digital communications officer, so I'll handle anything really on the digital marketing side of our communications.
And within that, I'll oversee our email marketing, coms website, managing and maintaining the content on our website and updating that.
And also some social media and paid advertising as well as social media ads.
So, yeah, it's all very exciting.
And there's never a dull day.
We've always got a new campaign or a launch or an initiative or an event that needs promoting.
And essentially, my job is just to decide what channels are best to promote those things through.
And yeah, how can we reach as many people as possible to, you know, sign up for an event or to get involved with a campaign?
And so on. So it's very exciting.
That's really interesting.
You must be learning a lot about the likes of psychology and like, is it all people around this this time or what types of people respond to the different types of like media avenues or?
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, yeah, demographics is a big part of it.
And I know when your audience is a huge element of deciding what communications to send them at what time.
But even like you're talking about demographics there.
Yeah.
Like demographics, like I know a lot of people who do likes of geography and like it's funny geography seems to be that one that I'd like to focus on demographics and people.
And like, maybe understand that's a bit of psychology, but like, it seems to be that one where it's like a course that can take you anywhere.
My is going to be my thought. My twin sister's fiancee is he did geography at university and he is now a chartered accountant.
Okay. So even what you're saying about demographics and like if anyone who's interested in numbers, definitely look to your avenue.
Oh, yeah. 100 percent.
But yeah, that's great. And it's even like climate. I was going to mess up the words. The social media, like the mental work that goes into it.
Like you're talking about deciding on campaigns and like what works for a particular day.
I love seeing on LinkedIn, like all those particular, oh, here, guys, it's Earth Day today. Yeah. Or it is like World Health Day or something like that.
Yeah, 100 percent. That's like a huge part of our work as well as like being aware of what awareness days are coming up.
So, for example, I mean, obviously in the environmental sector, Earth Day is probably the biggest one of the year.
But yeah, there's also like World Health Day, there's International Day of Forests, World Ocean Day.
Oh my goodness. There's also LGBTQ plus Pride Month, Black History Month, everything like that.
Climate change is an intersectional issue. So, yeah, it's important that we address all of these awareness days and topics so that we can address the greater issue of climate change.
Nice. Very cool. Thank you so much for that explanation, Catherine. Really interesting role and hopefully it's inspired some people.
Yeah. And see to get to like your role, like the carbon literacy project focuses on the likes of training and like making people more carbon literate. For anyone who's carbon literate or even to get into your type of company, would you recommend any sort of guides or training like, you know, that they could do?
Yeah, I mean, the first step I would say is to get carbon literate, get certified. What we offer is a day's worth of climate education.
And that is for everyone around the world. There's no one excluded in our offering.
Essentially, it's a day's worth of learning about climate change and also how it relates to you, your organization, your community group, depending on who's delivering the training and what you can do about it.
So it's like very action based. At the end of the training, you'll devise climate action pledges.
Yeah, the two best pledges basically that you can make within your sphere of influence. So yeah, it puts everyone on a level playing field in terms of climate knowledge.
And yeah, we're just past 90,000 certified carbon literate citizens worldwide.
Congratulations. Wow. Yeah, it's exciting times and we're fast approaching 100,000, which is an insane milestone to achieve.
I think whenever I became carbon literate, which was in November 2020, my certificate number was like 15 and a half thousand.
So that was like eight years after the organization started. So within three and a half years or almost four years, I mean, I can't work out the math.
But it's like 75,000 in this. It's like insane speed that we're working up.
But I mean, yeah, it just shows the importance of climate education in this day and age. And there is such an appetite for it right there. So many people want to understand climate change better and what they can do in their lifestyles, in their organizations, in their communities.
So, yeah, I mean, could vouch for it all day. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Like, oh, my goodness. Like class under like 90,000. Well, yes. Okay. I think the numbers think that's almost fourfold in three years.
Yeah. That is crazy. I'll just let you do the numbers and I'll give you the right numbers.
Good deal. So, yeah, so I was looking on the carbon literacy website as well.
And I was saying that you guys not only offer people to be carbon literate, but also organizations.
Yeah. And it's really great because I was looking on this VPH and I was coming across all the logos.
Yeah. And there is over or around 200 organizations. Yeah, that's right. On the website all within the UK.
And so I'm going to name them to you now. No, like, yeah.
But I was like seeing the ones, the ones like Norfords Housing, Doc 10, Jacobs in Manchester, MTV Studios and BBC as well. They all gave like reviews like about their.
Yeah, yeah. Some of those organizations would have received the training. Yeah.
And like that, like that's really great. Like the ITV Studios and like Carnation Street.
Has a place in my heart.
So, yeah, but and one of the things with the coming, oh, no, yeah, I'm with this and with these organizations being carbon literate, they've earned, I'm going to say a rating, like an award.
So they can be platinum, gold, silver or bronze. Yeah, that's right.
So, yeah, essentially, just like an individual can become trained, so can an organization, so can a trainer with organizations.
It is that tiered scheme and accreditation scheme.
So, yeah, it all kind of the tier that you that your organization gets accredited at is the level of action that you've taken and how embedded carbon literacy is within your workforce.
So there will be like criteria for different percentages of your workforce trained, you know, at certain levels, you'll have to produce like a case study.
You'll have to influence your wider community or an other organization.
It's all different levels of action that you can take.
I think bronze really is that entry, hence why there's so many bronze CLOs out there. And yeah, it does become increasingly more difficult to to climb the CLO ladder, but it is possible.
And yeah, I mean, a lot of amazing benefits come along with that.
Absolutely crazy to hear when I always like seeing the ratings like, you know, it's like platinum gold or silver, but the likes of we we have BPP, we work a lot with a BREEAM.
It's it's kind of like the building accreditation award that's given to a building and it can be in it can be like, you know, it gives the rate and it's standing excellent, very good.
And it's like, well done. Like, yeah, you did good. OK, you did good. Yeah.
Yeah, keep it up. Keep it. Keep it up. Yes, exactly.
That's really great. OK, well, Catherine, we've come to the section of the podcast where I've got some facts with you and I get your take on them.
So I try and like name these a fun name. I thought this is going to be amazing. I was like Project Carbon, like, you know, well, groundbreaking. It's going to be like, you know, an MI5 Pips Up project.
Oh, yeah. Centigrade or something like that.
But I have to say the hashtag it's carbon, like it's still taking me. I'm still reeling from it.
I believe it. Yes. OK, so it's kind of a two part question. So carbon, we're talking a lot about being carbon literate and with the carbon literacy course.
And I've actually did mine last Thursday with the 30 under 30. Very, very informative. Honestly, I thought being in the sector for eight years and only I was like, yeah, here's the stuff.
No. So I was like so cool. Like it is absolutely class.
And one of the things I did before, I'm sidetracking from the question, sorry about apologies. We'll get back to that before.
But you're like they gave us they sent over a quiz that we can do to see so we can see our carbon impact.
And after you filled in the quiz, it's like, OK, you're a carbon consumer or you're carbon and like, you know, you're a carbon friend.
And then I actually did it the first time. I was like, you're carbon beef.
And I'm like, wow, wow, what? Excuse me. And I think it was something to do with the airplanes I put in.
But I'm like, I don't do that anymore. It's fine. Like, yeah, I think changes. Yes.
Small changes, exactly. But I'll link that in this because I'm sure anyone wants to know their carbon.
That'd be very cool. I actually don't think I know what the quiz you're talking about is.
I would love to see it and where I rank on that. Yes. I'd like to think I'm a carbon friend.
Yeah, no, because I thought, yeah, I'm going to say this. No problem.
But it's like the big stuff. And one of the things it said in the course as well was about the impact of driving a car.
I was just going to talk about this. Yeah.
And like, I didn't realize like how big it was. Yeah.
And I kind of thought, well, the likes of it was all kind of junked in together with public transport and stuff like that.
But I'm like, oh, no, like it's way up there. Yeah, I know.
It's just it's so difficult, especially like where we're from, you know, in Northern Ireland.
There's not an awful lot of transport justice. There's not many transport options.
People are I mean, some are forced to have a car. Yeah.
You know, it's very difficult to get around otherwise.
And as well, I think it's just kind of the culture here as well. People just love their cars.
They take so much pride in it. Like, yeah. Yeah.
Having a nice car, a nice house, like, yeah, kind of like materialistic things are like.
It's it's it's funny because my twin sister, Niamh, shout out to Niamh.
She doesn't I don't think she listens to this, but it's funny.
And she doesn't drive and I've been driving since like the last 10 years. Yeah.
And it's funny to see the difference. She always like is like, here, can I get a lift here, please?
But then see, like the likes of public transport. She knows those timetables.
Like she she's just like, oh, here we can get the 54 bus that will get us in for this time.
And it's like, well, oh, my gosh. Whereas like, like, you know, with the I used to be like that when, like, you know, I didn't drive.
Yeah. But then with the knowledge of that, she's like, I feel like, you know, maybe she doesn't need a car.
She can just get public transport. Definitely. I mean, I think the best place for it is Belfast.
Although, you know, it could be significantly better where I'm from.
You know, there's there's no hope of relying on public transport.
Like I would have to walk 20 minutes from my house in the countryside to get a bus into OMA to then go anywhere else.
You know what I mean? It's like it's very difficult.
And like that's why that's what I mean whenever I say we're like somewhat forced to drive. It's like you do have to have a car, especially in the rural areas.
But there is like a transport justice issue with that for people who want to take climate action by not relying on a carbon intensive mode of transport or even for the likes of disabled people or even just for people who don't want to drive.
And there needs to be better options. So I'm glad that like the new train station is going to be open soon.
I hope that is like a sign of the times that there's going to be more train options.
I think there's like a couple of trains to Dublin every day, maybe one or two to Derry every day.
Yeah, that's like, come on, like, you know, give us more for style.
Yeah, because I've seen it. I've been such a hypocrite. I've been driving past it.
Yeah, exactly.
And then like, you know, seeing it being built, I'm like, oh, that's going to be like.
Yeah, it is pretty cool. I feel like I've completely sidetracked from the original question.
I'm so sorry.
Well, it's kind of like a two part question. And I say questions, it is one question because I'm like, oh, yeah, this will be a good chunk of fun.
So are you aware of the term, which in your line of work you probably are, are you aware of the term carbon negative?
Yes.
And so carbon negative is when country actually absorbs more carbon than it emits. So it's really sucked upon as really green, really beneficial, really nice for the environment.
So the country that does this is, can you guess the country that does this?
I actually think I can.
I actually think I can, yes.
OK, I'm going to be so proud of myself. I get this right. Is it Rutan?
Yes, it is. Oh my goodness.
In the Eastern Himalayas?
Yeah.
Congratulations.
I think the reason why it is carbon negative as well, correct me if I'm wrong, is because it's got such a high percentage of forest cover.
Exactly. Yep. That's what I've got here as well.
And fun fact about Ireland actually has one of the lowest percentages of forest cover in the world, which is surprisingly ironic for the Emerald Isle.
Oh my goodness. Yeah. I didn't know this.
Although it is super green here and there is a lot of forestry, but there once was more.
Yeah, there's a wee place, I go walk in in Valley Clare, that's where my friend is.
And there's a place we go walk in and we go up this, like we park at this wee valley and it's lovely because you can see out, it's like the Hand Cave Hill.
You can see the wind turbines go in, you're like beautiful.
And then you walk up and you see, it's where they grow the Christmas trees.
I'm like, this is really beautiful. And then just come December, they're all gone.
Yeah. And it's like, wow. So sad, isn't it? Yeah.
Yeah, I know. And it actually kind of leads me to just a quick fact about offsets.
A lot of carbon offsetting is in relation to tree planting schemes, which, yeah, I mean, just like you said, there's one thing to planting a tree.
It's another thing to actually see it through its entire lifespan of 30, 40 years.
And that's like for the offset to be worthwhile, it has to reach that stage.
But many, most of the time, we don't know what lifespan it's achieving.
Yeah, due to different things, crop failure, temperature changes, maintenance. Yeah, it's so difficult to know. And that's why we at the carbon agency project, we like discourage offsets.
Right. OK. That is really interesting to hear because I know one of the things for the lexo planning that London does.
So any buildings like are being built, they have to meet a certain carbon target and they try to achieve or they try to encourage the carbon neutral.
Like, you know, if your development, if it's going to emit this amount of carbon, make sure like or if it's projected to emit this amount of carbon, make sure it's taken away this amount of carbon.
Yeah. And one of the ways it does that is like, OK, for every carbon or for every tonne you go over, the amount you actually emit, like, you know, put 90 pounds, 95 pounds of that into like the carbon offset fund.
Yeah. And like, so the London have this carbon offset fund.
And like that's the thing I was actually thinking about the other day. I'm like, why the projects from that? Like, I want to see. Yeah, exactly.
The evidence behind the programs is such an issue as well, because there's a huge lack of it.
And yeah, I mean, like the wider problem with carbon offset and like just on what you said is that it gives people an excuse to continue emitting carbon at the rate that they are.
There's nothing there to discourage people from doing so.
You know, but really what we need to do is inspire them to take different actions or take a different approach to their work, a lower carbon approach so that they emit less.
OK, yeah. Again, you've come out with a number of things this podcast that I'm like, I really like that.
I'm going to use that in like another sentence.
But yeah, so I've actually got to follow up to the question as well.
And it's not so much a question, but can you guess what Bhutan is also referred to as?
Oh, and I'll say this now. It's nothing to do with carbon or environment. It's literally just, I thought, like a colony.
OK, so I'm guessing it's nothing to do with forests?
No.
Oh, I have no idea.
OK, it's also referred to as the land of the thunder dragon.
OK, yeah.
And I was like, that's nice. I'm going to use that.
I feel like that tells us, you know, it gives us a little insight to their ancient history as well.
Yes, it's actually also the thing as well. Bhutan, they take a more holistic approach as well.
Like, they're not so worried about the things that maybe us in the UK or America or China that like, you know, we do that to create carbon.
Yeah.
They more focus on happiness.
Yes, I've heard about this as well.
Yeah, there's a thing, is it the who or but there's a World Happiness Index and Bhutan is up there.
I think we all need to take a bit of info from Bhutan.
Yeah, yeah, but definitely. Well, we'll go there and holiday like, you know, just like, OK, work, you need to pay for this excursion.
You need to pay for this sabbatical. OK.
So that's great. OK, so thanks for playing Project Carbon, which might be renamed to its carbon section.
Or hashtag it's carbon.
But yes, you're talking about the likes of you've talked about your activities and you're doing your job.
So the reposting of campaigns. Can I ask you what's your favourite part of the job?
Like, what do you love to see happening?
Oh, my God. That's a tough question.
My favourite part.
I feel like what's really exciting is whenever you spend weeks or months planning ahead of a project or a campaign or an event,
and then you finally see it come to fruition or the event takes place or the campaign is launched or the campaign ends and it's really successful.
I think that's something that you get a lot of satisfaction from that.
And especially something that we've been doing kind of more so in the last couple of years is the Carbon Literacy Action Day, which is an annual event.
It's the largest climate education training event of its kind.
Oh, my goodness. Just a little plug.
Yeah, it's in its fourth year at the minute.
So, yeah, we've launched the date. It's taken place later on this year on the 14th of November.
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to come on and promote this.
Yeah, no, please do. That's awesome.
Yeah, it is. It's a super exciting time. It's essentially our answer to a global movement.
And it takes place at the same time as the annual COP conference. So the first one was in November 2021 when COP26 took place in Glasgow.
This year it will take place while COP29 takes place in Azerbaijan.
So, yeah, each year it aligns with that.
And our tagline is kind of while world leaders meet to discuss and negotiate on climate policy, carbon literacy learners will be on the ground learning, taking action, becoming empowered to do their bit.
Yeah, it's a super inspiring time.
Obviously, the key is we're trying to have as many people trained in a single day as possible. It's kind of, you know, like a bit of novelty, a bit of a challenge.
But yeah, I mean, last year on the third action day, we had 2,303 learners trained on that day.
So it doesn't mean that they got certified on that day, they just completed their training. But that was completely record breaking for us. It was such a super exciting time.
And for me, I play a role in the communications aspect of the campaign. So everything from now, like this time of year with the launch of the campaign.
So we've just recently launched it at the start of this month and everything now for the next couple of months until the event takes place in November.
Just communicating with different audiences, ensuring the public is aware of it, making sure anyone who wants to become carbon literate or deliver carbon literacy training on the day finds out about it and can do so.
So, yeah, it's very exciting time. Yeah, hopefully we're going to smash our target for this year.
That's class. I'll definitely try and get BPP involved.
Yes, we need like a BPP carbon literacy course. Yeah, adapt the framework and make a course for your organization.
I look forward to future collaboration.
Penny, thanks.
Oh, thank you so much. You've been an absolute delight to have on the podcast.
I'm glad to say this has been very exciting.
See, just before we go, do you have any advice to any future inspiring people who might want to end up in the energy sector?
In the energy sector, I'm not sure. I don't have an awful lot of experience with that exactly. But in terms of the wider environmental sector, I suppose, pick your area of interest.
In this case, there was probably a lot of energy listeners.
Yeah, find organizations, groups, any kind of networks that you can involve yourself in, try and meet like minded people. If it means volunteering or working for free at the start, you know, give it a go.
You never know what opportunities might arise from that. I started off as a volunteer at the carbon project and never imagined turning into this.
And it's a job that I absolutely love. So, yeah, I suppose what I said earlier, follow your interests, follow your passion and a job will come from there.
Brilliant. Thank you so much, Catherine. You'll definitely be back on.
Yeah, we need to do this on this exact date next year. See, what all has changed.
We're like, OK, the world's on fire.
Not if there's enough carbon-free citizens.
See, this is it. That's a good plug. That's a good plug. That's it.
OK, well, brilliant. Thanks Catherine again.
OK, thanks for listening to Carbon Climates. If you follow us on Instagram at carbon underdrawer climates, you can keep up to date with all our latest posts, news and episode uploads.
OK, thanks for listening. Bye.