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Hello, welcome, and thanks for listening to Carbon Climates, an energy podcast dedicated

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to discussing all things energy, carbon and sustainability. We also like to talk about

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what's getting hot, sides from our planet. I'm your host Enya, and today I'm joined

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by my carbon climate and co-host Max. Hi, Max.

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Hi, how are you doing?

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Doing well, what about you?

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Doing well, living with Aslan?

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I'll have to say, like, see, because I always ask people how they're doing, and anytime

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anyone asks me, hey, you doing? I'm like, whoa.

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This is my podcast. I have questions for you.

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Yes.

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So, yeah, so can you tell us a bit about yourself?

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Sure, yeah, I'm a mechanical building services engineer for Mount MacDonald. And as well,

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I'm also the Sydney Northern Ireland Young Engineers Network Chair. You don't realise

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how long I titled that is until you get to say it. And yeah, I've been sort of working

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in the industry for about three years full time, sort of started working back in 2018,

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kind of from part time sort of thing. But yeah, that's my phone.

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Very good. Nice. And see, when you were at school, like a secondary school, did you ever

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envisage yourself in the sector?

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Oh, no, no, not at all. No, I was my story is from one where I think I went wanting to

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do every single career aside from this group where I went right growing up, probably saw

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an episode of Suits and went, wow, I won't do law. That's it. That's my passion now.

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Then go to like GCSE level, realise some of GCSEs and went, I actually really don't like

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history in English and I would have to do this. Everyone was telling me at least that

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I would have to do them. So I just went, no, I won't do that. I'll do medicine instead.

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That was really passionate about the three sciences of maths for like AS level. They

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went in like placement and then everyone took the place that I was at was like, I'm so

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tired. There was when the junior doctor strike stuff was going on and it was like, they were

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not the happiest. And that did put me off medicine a bit.

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Okay. Yeah.

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Okay. Completely reimagine myself again when I'm going to do finance or accounting or something

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was actually accepted into that on for Glasgow University. Right. And then ended up basically

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just with doing the reals and family and somebody needs to say no to Maryland. So I was like,

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right. Okay. I'll do that. What does Queensland have available? So I just mechanical engineering

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and I was like, I'll just do that for a year. I'll like with that and see how it goes. And

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then in general, I can go somewhere else later. I can go in finance and then ended up doing

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that for a year. Really enjoyed it. Did my summer placement sort of thing with a, well,

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I was told at the time it was a mechanical engineering company because my mom and dad

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both architects. So whenever I said to them, oh, what's like a mechanical engineering company?

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They want complete building services. They didn't go like Mercedes, BMW, like any of

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the classics. They're manufacturing. So yeah, that was me then. I worked there at mom McDonald

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for summer. I enjoyed it and just, yeah, always came back and never skipped. So what's not

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the love?

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That is absolutely class to hear Max. Okay. Yeah. Very good. But that's really great to

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hear about your career progression and like at the start of it, what you're deciding to

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do because it was in the exact same position. At 18, I thought I was going to be a zoologist.

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Okay. And then I kind of realized, oh, you need to be good at biology, which I wasn't.

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I was getting strutsies. Like it was, I was going to ask because otherwise the transition

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from zoologist to like full on energy engineer. I was going like, that's interesting. And

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my course with Ulster was actually a clean technology, which doesn't exist anymore.

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Ulster did the thing, which it's not just Ulster. A lot of universities seem to do this

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when they amalgamated it with building services and now it's architectural technology. I

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was going to say. I think, yeah. So that's happened as well. I know they have a similar

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one, which is like their energy engineering. I think that's what they're going for so much

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of as well is like the building services course like share, I think like 60% of the modules

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or something. So, you know.

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Yeah. See that the energy degree at Ulster, that came out once I graduated. I was like,

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oh my goodness, I would love to do that.

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And we at BFF, we always have placement students and they mostly come from the energy course.

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I'm like, oh, that's like, you know, is it like what I was saying?

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That's the thing I dream.

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But yeah, brilliant. Thanks for the introduction Max. So as you said, you're in the building

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services industry, being a building service engineer, and that is the focus of today's

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topic. I'm going to think of a snazzy title. See, like, you know, from listening to these

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podcasts, if you haven't listened to them.

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I have to work. Love them.

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But like, I always like to throw in a pun. And I've been really enjoying them.

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Like this is the thing because you were the CIPSE head, like the CIPSE chair for the Yant

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Energy Network. And I kind of used like the pun I had where I was like, you know, chartered

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engineer, I was like, okay, what can chart maps that was like mapping the way of being

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chartered? And I was like thinking that. I was trying to think of another one for building

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services. So by the time this episode airs, one will be thought of and it will be the

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episode title.

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Please let me know all of the business persons that are in the office.

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So building services like focus on building engineering. Buildings do more than provide

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shelter from heat and cold or from the sun and wind and rain. They also provide a safe

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and healthy environment in which people can live, work and achieve greatness. So building

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services engineering is vital to everyone and it has a real impact on people's lives.

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And what I kind of realized about it or what I was kind of researching about it, like a

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couple of years in to this sector that we're in, is like that they can affect health and

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well-being. So like such as like the likes of temperature control, ventilation, humidity,

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all have to do with building services and like, you know, just how we control them,

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like creating a healthy airflow and allowing people to stay awake. And I don't know if

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you guys have come across like any TM59 assessments overheating. So those are like, I love doing

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those assessments, but I also hate them. But like, you know, just because they're so difficult

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to model. And I love the principle behind it because it was to do with like comfort

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and temperature. And it's like, okay, 26 degrees, that's the pinnacle temperature that above

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that people are considered uncomfortable. And like, I really love that because then

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it said, okay, yeah, actually with that people, it can affect people's health, like them not

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being.

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Yeah, possibly. It's one of those ones where I think everyone might have the worst part

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with them. All you do is like size radiators, although that's all you do. It's like, no,

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trying to like beat that out of him is like never going to happen. I've kind of like things

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so I'm definitely going to use this podcast thing to be like, we're more than just that.

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But as I say, yeah, it's literally, it is a massive part. It's kind of one of those

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ones, I think, really hoping that I'm remembering this right, because it's going to look really

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bad if I don't. But like Sibsy's whole thing is like, we bring life to buildings through

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the thing that like I said on you. So I don't, you're just talking, it can look pretty and

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it can stand up, but who wants to sit in the husk of a building?

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Yeah, in a shell like, yeah.

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Exactly. And all of that then it basically makes it so that it is absolutely livable,

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you know, and yeah, that's nice. It's nice for me at least. You're buttering me up. So

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the thing being like, yes, this is all the great things you do. I'm so used to hearing

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like, you know, structural engineers are like, oh, just building services, all that, you

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know.

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So come on, what we do is.

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Honestly.

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But yes, so you're building services and we would work with you guys to help design a

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livable and hopefully sustainable building. So about 40% of the UK's energy is used within

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buildings. So it's really important to, and it won't say anything, but I actually took

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back directly from the Sibsy website.

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Oh, that's so bad for me. That's such an interesting thing.

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So a good design for energy efficiency on the systems that are used within the building.

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Again, just recap, ventilation, that hot water, the heating, if there's a need for cooling

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and also lighting as well.

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I was going to say on the electrical side of stuff where they started looking into the

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likes of small power, which I think as well, obviously going fire alarm systems and things

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like that as well, you know, and all the electrical engineers and the officer going to kill me

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because I'm probably describing this so wrong. But yeah, like the life emergency lighting,

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LV, all that kind of things. And obviously not exactly as you say, even into sustainability.

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Now we're seeing a lot more of the likes of even PV panels just become standard practice

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on the building that they are really pushing that along sort of thing and making sure that

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they're implemented and being utilized. You know, it's fantastic now that it's starting

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to become a bit more standard. I know PV is kind of one of the easy ones that I think

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that everyone will maybe just say, oh, we want to be sustainable. Come on PV when there's

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better options out there a lot of the time. But you know, at least that small step is

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the plan to start ahead in the right direction. I suppose it's as involved with credit. Even

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I'm sure you've seen it as well. I mean, you know, like over the few years for things

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from massive changes now and see clients embrace it, you know.

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Yeah, there's even we would do a lot of work over in England. One of the big changes there

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for in terms of energy assessment methodology was the change of using soft pressing 12 software,

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the soft 10 software, which had different carbon factors and it showed electricity.

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It was pretty interesting because it was kind of like a big reveal. And that the like this

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guidance came like, and it showed like, okay, all these carbon factors 10 years ago, which

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were used in these energy assessment calculations for the next 10 years. This is what they are

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now. So gas, it was like have a carbon factor of every kilowatt hour you generated admitted

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like not point two one three kilograms into the atmosphere. And electricity used to be

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not point five one kilograms into the atmosphere. And then this new guidance showed, well, yeah,

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electricity is actually have so it's it was down to the same as gas and gas barely moved

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at all. Like it went down. But like, like, and then why did electricity use so much?

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And it's because of all the renewables connecting to the grid like PV, like wind turbines, and

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that really helped it and it like lessened the demand to create electricity through fossil

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fuels. So it was really great to see. And like one of the changes for us was with sub

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10, it took into account this updated methodology, these updated carbon factors. And one of the

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big things it did was create options for renewables. What I mean by that is wastewater heat recovery.

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Okay. There's a really great company. I believe it used to be based in Hollywood, I'm not

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too sure anymore. But CharSafe. And they focus on wastewater heat recovery. So they recapture

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hot water goes down your sink or shower. And so you can use it again, you can use the heat

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again. So you're not using as much heat. And they were actually in the new sub 10 methodology.

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They were actually classed as renewable or like when it came out. So then using them

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got your really big carbon reduction. So yeah, that's some stuff actually being implemented.

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Like whenever novel technologies and stuff. One of the few things that we're seeing like

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guidance is actually now starting to be not like amazing on it, but it is keeping up to

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a pretty good degree sort of thing. Maybe within England, it's better than within Northern

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Ireland. Yeah, I think we'd all be all admit that yeah, Northern Ireland can sometimes

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be weaving behind them. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'm giving a talk in a couple of weeks

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about doing this 30 under 30 thing. I was gonna say, congratulations. I'm not going

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to say I'm but it's like we have to do an individual project. And so mine is on the

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energy assessment methodology in Northern Ireland. So sorry, we're going to sidetrack

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talking about like after this, we're back to you. Okay. So England and Scotland and

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Wales, they all use sub 10 methodology and they're previously using sub 2012 methodology,

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which focused on 2013 building regulations and then 2021 building regulations. And Northern

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Ireland, it does have 2021 regulations, but we're still using sub 2009 methodology. So

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that is like, as you can probably guess from the year, it's 15 years out of date. And I

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do talk about this and some episodes, but I'm going to talk about again, just to show

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you, but the reason why we're still then it's to do with, suppose there's all things, the

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geopolitical sort of stance we're in. That's an old another podcast episode. Yeah, yeah.

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I'll give you a rundown. Okay. So it was supposed to be reviewed in 2012. Okay. And in 2012,

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they wanted to focus on radon testing. So the like update to methodology and build the

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regs are now we'll focus on that in 2016 when it's supposed to be reviewed again. 2016 came

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what happened in 2016? Well, in 2015, Brexit was announced and then 2016 that left Northern

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Ireland in a very crazy position. And then, honey, 17, we didn't have an acceptance. Yeah.

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Whenever we play the guessing game of what year was our government actually born? Yeah.

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And then it was supposed to be reviewed again in 2020. And then 2020, so.

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Right. I thought it was every time I'm going to get this, isn't it?

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I'm really passionate about this project because one of the things I want to focus on is fuel

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economy. It's like our fuel poverty land. Like people should have a right to like be

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able to keep their homes and not, it doesn't have to be an astronomical price. And the

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likes of buying a new house, loads of people like talk to people and they've been like,

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I would buy this new house. It's electric. Flip, sorry, sorry, say bump or flip. It's

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this. And they didn't realise the cost of the bills. Energy performance certificates

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they actually for domestic settings, they actually give an estimated fuel cost. England,

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Scotland, Wales, that's grand. For Northern Ireland, that fuel cost is out of date because

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we're using outdated methodology.

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I just knew and tell everybody about this. I literally just bought a house like six months

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ago. And I was going like, that's right, never mind.

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It's just like one of those tools that like people are made aware of. And it can help

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them, like, you know, even search for the fuel, because when you're buying or selling

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a house or looking at buying or selling houses, all their EPCs have to be valid. So they're

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all in line. You can just research like, OK, how much is this going to cost? And it should

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be just more standard. Anyway, we have sidetracked there back to building services.

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Don't worry, I'll get to that.

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But yes, building service engineers, they help us create a low carbon future. And again,

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yeah, that was taken directly from the CIPC website.

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Yeah, I definitely knew that one.

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I didn't know it. But yes. So Max, you are a mechanical building services engineer. Can

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I ask what do you love most about your job?

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I was going to say there's a big part of it, which is incredibly satisfying to just see

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it come from a complete zero, as we're talking about, shell of a building sort of thing to

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them, like completely fitted out operational sort of thing. Whenever you start seeing that

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and miles apart of it as well is kind of going like, for me, I did this sort of thing. I'm

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going like that is so surreal sort of thing. Like working on projects that you know, whenever

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you're starting out with these things, you're kind of just like, oh, you know, work in the

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industry, you kind of never have a thought of going, oh, I'll work on something that

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is in any way significant or something. Like for me personally, like project, which I was

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kind of like, well, so like going through is the Belfast International Airport, like

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the new extension sort of thing. So like, somehow I'm not, I'm like the lead mechanical

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on that. And I'm going like, why did this happen? I was like thinking like, oh yeah,

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working school, mousse and domestic kind of stuff. I like getting to see that. And

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like, as you can say, affecting so many lives sort of thing of where you're going like,

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every one of my family and friends is going to be passing through that airport. I'm going

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to be able to be like, oh, so cool that I worked on that, you know, like just so soon

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early, I know. But you know what I mean?

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Yeah, I do exactly the same. Like we would deal with yourself, we deal a lot with architects

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and even walking through buildings like the Grand Central in Belfast. Walking through

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that and saying, look how much cladding is on the outside of that. Look at that. And

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just thinking of like the work that went in and the number of rooms and like, how many

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ACs are in there?

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That's the thing I'm terrible for. My girlfriend's like a structural engineer, can't move to

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sustainability herself. But like, whenever we go into restaurants now, I'm terrible

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because I'll literally just be staring at the ceiling. Yeah. I'm like, oh, look what

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they're doing. Yeah. I'm like, so weird the way they've got that region. And she's like,

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Max, shut up. We're here for a nice dinner. Stop saying, look at the menu. I want to order

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them. We were actually at Mini Golf for work night out. Last week, it was funny because

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we're inside the venue and Hannah, who's been on the podcast before, she was like, oh, look

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at those decks. Look at the ventilation. And Kristin, our friend, our mechanical engineer

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friend, she's like, oh yeah, that's this type. I was able to... I was just like, oh my goodness,

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check out the knowledge.

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That's the only impressive thing, very specific subsection of people.

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Not particularly niche, but yeah. It's a thing. If you head into building services

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or energy, you could be in this niche. You could be in on the joke.

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You could be part of our really fun talks and jokes that we have and not feel excluded.

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So that's why you should definitely go into building services or energy.

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Oh, that's really great to hear, Max. Well, see, for your role is, I know a degree definitely

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help for the training and prep, but is there anything else that you think helps being a

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building services engineer, like any guides to read up on?

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I was going to say, there is stuff there with regards to like Cibsie guides and things like

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that. Obviously, Cibsie kind of has a thing where if you're a student and that's like

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regardless of whatever field sort of thing, you can apply and you'll get completely free

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membership. So then all of a sudden, all of their guidance documents, all of their stuff

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is online, completely free sort of thing. So if you're interested in any sort of way,

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there's a quick one that you can buzz through and kind of find out. I will say as well,

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there's like great YouTube videos on there which are like new like on what is a VRF system

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and those sort of things, which I hope my live mentors aren't listening. I will still

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go back and watch because they were really good at explaining it. You know, like generally

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that kind of stuff. And like it is and as well, days and things like that. Because I

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know like all the global multi-discipline things will do stuff like I know, we had a

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placement student for a week. What they got to do is they just went around kind of like

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every discipline and kind of every day, kind of got to see a bit of an insight as what

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we do sort of thing. So even if you're just like going, oh, I'm generally kind of interested

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in engineering, but I don't know what to do sort of thing. Definitely like go to those

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kind of things as well. But in terms of like, as well, you kind of said a degree helped

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and stuff like that as well. The real rise now in seeing apprenticeships and stuff is

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actually massive with the call for it is kind of we're seeing on the building services side,

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massive like people are so interested in taking on apprentices because I think as well, building

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services degrees are quite difficult to find in certain places. Like even in my end, like

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I came through a manufacturing mechanical engineering rather than building services.

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So all of a sudden, so many employers are going, well, yeah, we'll take you on and teach

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you sort of thing. And you're not going to be missing that much knowledge really. You

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know, you go a year in and I'd say you're probably as up to date as anyone who's come

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out with a degree sort of thing, you know, so yeah, even just just to throw that out

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there and be like, can a degree isn't even necessary? Even on the chartership stuff,

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like it's not something that is actually required now to actually get that. So that's a huge

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help as well sort of thing. Yeah, no, I like I'm so glad you said that.

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One of the things when I like if I know now I'm in the sector and I'm seeing like Colwell's

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upstairs, they offer apprenticeships as well. And like I'm just thinking, I wouldn't allow

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to do that. Like, I know, like, like, don't get me wrong, the uni life, like the degree

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is great and experienced. But like the angle is you come out and you've got a degree and

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you've got no money. Yeah. But an apprenticeship, you'll have a degree and you'll have money.

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Oh, happily. Yeah. As you say, like you talking about the like uni life and stuff. During

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I got Covid for the last two years of mine, so even the half of mine was Covid as well.

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So I'm definitely going like get me an apprenticeship please. But yeah, like so that's kind of

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still on the percent of grade. It's just like wish I wish it was something that probably

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as well some secondary schools are very much like, oh, no, going to university is good

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for their numbers sort of thing. Yeah. As you say, from a personal perspective, I'm

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going to with degree and cash and a job setting their hand six years experience or something

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like that is massive. Like at the same age that people will be coming out necessarily

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because, you know, some engineering degrees take five years to come through. You're going

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for me what you could do in five years. So they work in somewhere. I'm at three and I'm

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literally they might have done this crazy. So for me, it's like 22 more to go. Where

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would I be at? You know, I'm really interested in the kind of psychology of it because I

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find like, you know, say you're 25, you just graduated like with you maybe have a placement

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year, but then you just finish your MN degree. And then what you maybe find is like, you

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like you don't have the same personality as someone who's maybe done the apprenticeship

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for who's been working in industry, knows how to talk to people like how to talk to

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architects, structural engineers, and all that. Like I remember when I think I came into this

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job when I was 20, 23, which was only last year. Why'd you laugh? No, I don't.

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Because you know, I'm 29. I'm happy to be 20. But yeah, like 23, like not knowing the

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psychical study formal approach here, whereas like from the age of 18, 19, you could be

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like, yeah, OK, I'll like, I'll like, I learned the mistakes now. Then by 20, you're lying

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at it like, like 100% as well as one of those ones. Because I know that we have like apprentices

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in the office and it'll be one of those ones where you'll kind of be like, oh, maybe they're

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only 20 sort of thing, you know, and you kind of will go over and you'll be like, right,

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how do I cater like the level of this sort of thing? And you kind of assume that you're

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like, right, I might need to allocate a bit more time for explaining whatever sort of

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thing. Those guys are wicked smart. So the thing that you'll come over and they will

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because they'll say I've been in the industry for two years. Doesn't matter what age they

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are. They will just have like typed it up like a sponge or the thing. And it is. Yeah,

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it's crazy. They went to knowledge and now some of them real high flyers because you're

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just like going, you're 20 and you're already talking about this level of stuff. Wow. Fair

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play. You're going to be so good in the next few years. Whenever the same age as someone

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coming out of uni, you're going to be like nearly chartered already. And it's just like

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crazy. Anyway, yeah, no, but that's great. Thanks Max for those guides. I will put a

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or tips on like the guides. I will put a link to the likes of the Cipsey website. It has

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a list for the technical memoriam like guides and like technical memorandums and all sorts

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of stuff. And there is, there is as well like training modules and stuff on there. No, I

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think there, there is like a thing if you're like a student member, they're like 50% off

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I remember rightly. And there's one of those ones if you're ever kind of like interested

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in like formal training and that's even kind of within your role. Yeah. Like if you're

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maybe in a company and you're kind of going, oh, I'd like a bit more knowledge. I'm not

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getting the chance to come across design heating systems and then how do you take and make

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the leap sort of thing. There's like great ones there sort of thing as well where they

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will literally take you right through from this is what a very basic valve does to this

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is the overall design of a system. Like what you, the concept should be that you're designing

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for and they're yeah, absolutely brilliant. I don't want to sound like one or two.

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So we come to the section nine where I like to print this until right towards each individual

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guest. So said before this section title is called map of the way and become a chartered

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engineer. Okay. So I'm going to spit some facts or general summary at you and then get

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your opinion on them and also ask some questions. So you best be prepared.

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Yeah. So once you've started your career as an engineer, it could be really beneficial

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to join an Institute body as we discussed there, the likes of the CIPC. You can train

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and become a member or incorporated engineer or chartered. And I am doing the same with

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the energy Institute. So I'm currently an associate member who has applied for charter

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shift. So yes, so this Institute, the Institute which you join will keep you up to date with

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the latest relevant training opportunities, continue professional development events,

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or general meetings going on in your area. They're also a great way of networking and

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can enhance your future career. And we also like to do a lots of fun things. So I was

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going to say, like, you know, because you're from CIPC, you're from energy Institute. It's

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kind of like, you know, what is it? The what's the West side thing? Like the jets and the

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sharks.

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I was wondering whether this is going to be, we're going to be passing time.

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You made a mistake. But yeah,

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By the doors.

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But yes, like the light the list of fun things like we held, we hold black tie events. And

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that's where we actually met.

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Energy Institute black tie event. And you were with you're with the Ulster crew, weren't

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you?

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Yes, kind of like through both with like what we're doing with CIPC, you're an engineer

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and stuff. We do a lot with Ulster sort of thing. So then kind of one of the lecturers

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was kind of like, oh, we've got another slot sort of thing. Come along to the Energy Institute.

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And I was like, yeah, why not? And then got a little bit in your hand. Oh, lovely crew.

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It was great.

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It's like you're asking me.

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That's really great. And so in within those institutions, there's often a young professional

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network or young engineers network, like CIPC call it, and can involve crazy nights out

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such as bar events and quizzes. And you get to meet all engineers your age. And I don't

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know what the like, do you guys have an age cap for your young engineers network?

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I think it's technically the first like 10 years of your career. It's kind of like when

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it's thoughtfully. But yes, one of those ones as well. Like we do so many events as well

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with like a fire being committee and stuff. We're kind of like, oh, there's CPT's or anything

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you're running. You're like, oh, you want to come along? Yeah. Yeah. So the thing, you

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know, is one of those ones. Generally, they know they'll know as well that they'll be

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like, like, some people are here to maybe speak to older ones and some people are very

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much just here to have a good laugh. So the things that are like, I don't know, you know.

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But yes, so you can learn from others in industry and apply for work to become like, as you

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said, in an engineer in the service engineer, they might be deal with and you don't have

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to come chartered or incorporated. And but then if you wanted to, like, you know, like

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for Lauren, it's kind of one of those ones where, you know, there's some that obviously

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will be so like business related where it'll be like, oh, I know when they're bidding on

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jobs, for example, there's like a minimum of chartered engineers. Yeah. And I know as

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well, Sibsey actually did something recently where they kind of like released a scheme,

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which is essentially to become like a Sibsey verified organization sort of thing where

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there's like, some of it is essentially a stamp of approval from Sibsey. And especially

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for the likes of, you know, S&E sort of thing where you maybe don't have 10,000 employees

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sitting there that you could go, well, yeah, we have massive number of people. It's more

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of like a percentage based of going, right, we have, yeah, at least 50% of our people

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are some form of member with Sibsey, not necessarily chartered or anything like that. And then

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like 20% are chartered sort of thing. And that then is Sibsey's kind of way of being

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like, right, like this is an organization that we can say we're happy and verify sort

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of thing. That's very recent. I think that was literally just announced. So you know

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what the energy institute does the same thing. It announced it at the dinner. Yeah. So like

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it must be like a thing with the general institute. It's like, they all had a meeting. It's like,

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we need to do this. But yes. Oh, I just wanted to talk a bit about the difference between

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a chartered engineer and an incorporated engineer, because when you're applying for stuff, those

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seem to be the big thing. So an incorporated engineer, you get the suffix. This is the

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thing guys, if you apply for this, you get a suffix after your name. Oh, yeah. Which

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is really the world. How many letters do you have? I'm not sure. You know, that's

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where we're like, so incorporated, you get I and and then chartered, you get C and so

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in court, I was doing some research into this. So in corporate engineer, it seems to be you

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apply for it. And it's on the way for you to become chartered. Yes. So chartered engineer,

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that seems to be final, not the final step. So I know there's the fellow and all like

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that. Never ends. Yeah. And but yeah, in corporate engineer, they seem has looking at the definition

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of both seem to develop solutions, manage applications and undertaking engineer engineering

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design. But in corporate engineer seems to be I think it's like when you're coming up

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like your first maybe five, like, you know, two years and you're like, yeah, okay, I'm

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doing this. I am designing these mechanical systems. I am still in them. I am creating

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workflows. But chartered engineers seems to be more like I said, 10 years in like, you

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know, I'm doing a bite. Yeah. Anyone asked me a question, I can answer it in five seconds.

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Yeah, that's the one that every time we get a new start in their office, they're always

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like, what's the difference? What is it chartered means sort of thing. And it's always that

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they are exactly as you said, someone who you're like sitting there and going, they're

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recognized by like the institution as being this person is they say competent, I say awesome,

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you know, they kind of are just going like, yeah, trust them to run a project. And if

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they say something's right, we would back them and say, yeah, we would verify that they

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probably are right. And we reckon so they can sign off on jobs and kind of things like

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that, especially down south and like Ireland stuff like that. I think you literally need

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to be chartered with engineers Ireland, for example, if you want to sign off a job down

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south, right? Okay. So, you know, and then I should say, corporate it is kind of just

399
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:32,240
you are doing really good stuff, but maybe you're not quite at the level where you're

400
00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:37,360
going right. We trust you to independently run off and kind of run a job by yourself.

401
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:43,160
You might still need some oversight. Yeah, you haven't got experience and say a certain

402
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:48,160
area of it might be technically your amazing sort of thing. Maybe you just haven't got

403
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,440
management experience. So they're kind of a bit like, like, say a wee bit more of that

404
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:57,600
before we say you can do all this stuff independently. Yeah, no, you're just right. You're just right.

405
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:03,960
That's great. And guys, if you this is your first time hearing those terms, please feel

406
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,160
free to use the CYBSEE or the Energy Institute website to look at it.

407
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,800
It's starting to get real fun whenever as well, because I think a lot of different institutions

408
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,560
as well, whenever you look at it, you maybe if you're looking for like, incorporated engineer

409
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:23,880
or chartered engineer on like, I'll use CYBSEE as a thing as well, that we have our version

410
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,520
of it as well. So like, for example, there's if you're incorporated engineer, it means

411
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:33,840
you're a CYBSEE, which is that then kind of means it goes, there's kind of two different

412
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,160
things where there's like the engineering council decides if someone is chartered or

413
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:44,640
not. But CYBSEE or Energy Institute has their own version to like basically say, right,

414
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,000
we give this person our stamp of approval. But like, because I know there's a weird thing

415
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:55,000
where for example, you can be M. CYBSEE, which is a full member of CYBSEE. And if you have

416
00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:01,840
a master's, that means that you are chartered, you get CNG. However, if you have a bachelor's,

417
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,880
that means you can have that M. CYBSEE and the engineering council will turn around and

418
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:11,560
kind of say like, we just need an additional report from you. Just to kind of, again, for

419
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,720
our end, push over the line. And there's weird quirks, particularly while we're talking about

420
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:20,320
chargerships. One of those things because there's a lot of confusion around it. And

421
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,080
I know for me, it took a while to get my head around. And there's only, actually, whenever

422
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,600
you go into this, it's like, young engineers chair, all the first thing people ask you

423
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,880
is, right, so how do I actually get chartered? What's the steps? And everyone, let me sit

424
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,880
down and figure this out.

425
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:41,560
So I actually just, because I did my application there. And that was me like figuring out because

426
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:52,920
when you're, you can be a, what's it called? I know CYBSEE call a member, like a member.

427
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,600
We call a member and you apply for it in the same process as you would a chargership. But

428
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:02,800
you don't include as much information as a chargership application would. And then once

429
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,600
you're a member, that's when, oh yeah, you're a member. Like, yeah, go for chartered engineer.

430
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:14,560
Like, come on, give us this info. Like, it's like, they go through the competency grids.

431
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:21,360
Oh, yeah. Like, okay, have you, have you done this? Have you done that? And we're like,

432
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,720
hopefully I have. Okay, so I've got some wee questions for you. You don't need to know

433
00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:34,040
the answer. But if you don't, you have to leave right away. Okay, and I was trying to

434
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:41,120
find a, like, one of the things about the engineering council, like I'll post a, like

435
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,640
I'll attach a link to their website as well. But it has its own like kind of search register

436
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:52,400
where you can search for a chartered or incorporated engineer. Like, so you can like look at their

437
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,500
number or look at the, oh, does this person, like are they chartered? And they'll come

438
00:37:56,500 --> 00:38:00,280
up if they are not. I'm definitely going to start quoting people's like engineering council

439
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,920
numbers in the office and they're going to be like, what are you talking about?

440
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,560
Yes, so I was trying to find, but like that's the thing. If you like you need a name or

441
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,720
something like that to, oh, just bring up those records. I won't bring up everyone's

442
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:28,520
records. Okay. Okay. So as of 2019, like only last year, okay, I know. So that like,

443
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:34,800
five years ago, why many engineers do you think were registered as chartered?

444
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:44,320
Oh, I'm going to go with, how many?

445
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:45,320
You're close. 185.

446
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:54,840
Oh, wow. I think a big swing and a big mess. Oh no. Well, I, yeah, to be fair, I think

447
00:38:54,840 --> 00:39:00,520
that was probably one of those ones where I remember this just shows how flawless my

448
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,000
logic is. But I remember I was like reading or listening to something the other day and

449
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,840
it was like, oh yes, 6 million people in like the UK are like involved in construction,

450
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:15,000
which by itself, I was like, what? Absolutely not. Had a brain fart there and didn't realize

451
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,320
of course not all of them are going to be one, sitting on the design side where a charter

452
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,800
ship is incredibly important or two, yeah, just not going to be directly working in any

453
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:31,920
sort of field where there is charter ship at all. So anyway, yeah, big swing, big mess.

454
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,840
Again, Sibsy people, please stop listening.

455
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:41,840
But yeah, no, that like, that's really great. And it's kind of like what we're talking about

456
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,960
earlier when you're, even when you're looking at a building and you realize the scale that

457
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,840
like, you know, it's like the work, the work, like all those people.

458
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:56,880
UK actually, I just think it like worldwide. Oh, worldwide. Oh, yeah, that's never mind.

459
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:05,880
I was wise off. Okay, listen, we'll do survey. But next time you're on my, you know, yeah,

460
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:11,120
I want these results validated. I said my 500,000, yes, the same. I'm assuming 2024

461
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,040
numbers definitely like don't hold since five years ago.

462
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,920
You like you go into Mount McDonald, you like I need to take a spadicle to find out how

463
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:24,400
you can go exactly working in construction. Let me just ask every single person. This

464
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,040
is important. Don't worry about it.

465
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:33,920
Okay, I have another question for you. Okay. So we're talking there about engineering institutes

466
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:44,960
like SIPC, like Energy Institute and like the concrete society as well. Can you guess

467
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,760
how many institutes there are in the UK?

468
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:53,320
That's a good one. This is going to be no, I'm definitely going to completely undershoot

469
00:40:53,320 --> 00:41:00,640
this. I've completely gone way over. I'm going to say, I suppose you need to consider ones

470
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,920
as well that aren't construction as well because it's like iMac and like a cami and stuff isn't

471
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:05,920
there?

472
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,200
See this thing. And yeah, it's only focused on engineering. And then there's some that

473
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:15,040
are maybe focused. I think software has its own like, so they haven't been included. But

474
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:21,720
I'm gonna go with 27.

475
00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:25,160
You know what, you were really close. It was 39.

476
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:32,240
I mean, yeah, within 12 is much better than out by 300. Yeah, take that.

477
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:36,560
But yes, so 39 in ship bodies.

478
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,840
Wow, I was just going to say there's even more on the software side. Is that all that

479
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:40,840
are included in that?

480
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:46,560
There is because there's British Computer Society, but then I know like our boss, Alan,

481
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:52,600
we do a lot of stuff with like, so of Revit and IES. And there's a separate like institution

482
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:58,400
that you can get a credit for then. The name of it, I was escaping my mind. And that's

483
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,800
yeah, so like, I know there's probably more under different umbrella names. But yeah,

484
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,800
39. And I'm going to go through each one of them. Not now.

485
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:09,800
The other section.

486
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:17,320
But yes, there's actually one of the because I've got the list here. So one of the like

487
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:23,920
things I find funny was like there's Institute of Physics and then there's Institute of Physics

488
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:30,380
and Engineering in Medicine. Wow, even more specific. Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because

489
00:42:30,380 --> 00:42:38,920
all these are either the Chartered Institution of Engineers or the Institution of Highway

490
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,520
Healthcare. And then there's the Energy Institute.

491
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,200
Yeah, yeah, that's like we're different. Okay.

492
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,200
You're not like other institutions.

493
00:42:51,200 --> 00:43:00,520
Yeah, yeah, that's great. And we've been in 44 minutes now. And yes, so when you give

494
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:07,080
a note, we're getting back to your job, Mark. Okay. Why we're all here.

495
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,640
Can you give us an overview of the types of buildings you worked on? I like so you're

496
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,320
saying are there when you're working on Belfast Airport?

497
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,320
Yeah, that is.

498
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,760
And like so that's really great. And that's probably like a large scale project.

499
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:27,960
Yeah, I was going to say it's one of those ones. I just say there's large scale in terms

500
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:33,080
of that. I'll say kind of like a moment to only kind of do a lot of commercial stuff

501
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,560
is kind of in there. So like, there'll be another one like to be fair, we do fair bit

502
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:41,400
in healthcare as well. So yeah, it was based in Belfast. Like the Rotavatoria Hospital

503
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:47,760
Energy Center, that design that was a lot formats. I think that's starting like 2012.

504
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,600
That's still been like pushing through sort of thing. And personally, probably more in

505
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,800
the end of there's obviously some education stuff in there. So there's like a partnership

506
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:02,320
special educational needs school, which is in Derry, which is being built to the minute

507
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:08,280
sort of thing. So that's interesting ones in that fire station kind of stuff cropping

508
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:13,080
through as well. And also mentioned aviation on the likes of the Belfast International

509
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:18,720
Airport, but defense stuff in there too, which is always cool. So yeah, a lot of variety

510
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,840
in there. I was gonna say within Belfast, there's weird enough. Another thing, but a

511
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:29,680
lot of stuff in Antrim just very random like Antrim Area Hospital, we did like the Gynecology

512
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,960
Department refurb long minor work stuff in there like the new emergency department, the

513
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:41,160
emergency department in Belfast, Rotavatoria Hospital as well. And then yeah, as well.

514
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,120
So kind of mixed the schools and stuff as well as the new Northern Regional Colleges

515
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:50,040
that are being built. So there's one in Correa and one in Balamina. So it was on those as

516
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:55,360
well sort of thing. So yeah, it'll be one night I'll think of the really like good one

517
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,840
that I just completely missed. So I'm thinking right halfway through and I'll be like, anyway,

518
00:44:58,840 --> 00:44:59,840
probably good.

519
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:00,840
Wait a second.

520
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:08,000
Like what is it? We finished the podcast and like you send a voice note, please include

521
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:15,200
this. Okay. But yeah, that's really good. That's such like a fast amount of experience.

522
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:22,320
And like, it's how do you feel when you're like doing it or after you've done it? Because

523
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:28,840
maybe after I complete a project, I'm like, I feel really accomplished. It's nice knowing

524
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,000
that I did is actually going to help people.

525
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,160
Yeah, I was gonna say there is a major part of that, like, especially when you're working

526
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,960
in the likes of healthcare and things like that. You're starting to just go, this is

527
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,840
like, literally when you're talking about designing medical gas systems and things like

528
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,200
that. And you're going like, oh, God, yeah, someone set up with like, oh, for me, that's

529
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,760
the new emergency departments going in is going to like, would be fantastic. We'll be

530
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,840
able to help people and treat patients and you're going like, yeah, you know, like that

531
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:00,640
kind of scale of stuff going through is just massive. And some of like education stuff

532
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,840
that you're going like, wow, yeah, this is going to be brilliant that this area now is

533
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:09,160
going to have a brand new network of just like education learning sort of thing being

534
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:15,240
built here and it can do all these like credible things. Like NRC Korean has like a brand new

535
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:19,680
like garage workshop, which is going in sort of thing. That's like, yeah, I love that.

536
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:26,160
I'm asking you, I'm just having fun, you know, but yeah, that's definitely like that whole

537
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,960
thing. Just, you just feel awesome. A little bit of worry whenever it's going to construction

538
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:36,520
and you're like fingers crossed on this wax. There's nothing that I missed, but you know,

539
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:42,880
fortunately, those are huge. Yeah. So, you know, not too many of those are cropping up,

540
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:51,600
but oh boy, they do scare you. Well, Max, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

541
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,800
You've been an absolute delight and hopefully you'll definitely be back on. Definitely.

542
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:03,560
Don't be sad if you haven't. Of course. Very informative. Just before we go, do you have

543
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:09,640
any advice for future prospective engineers that will be looking to get into this sector?

544
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:18,360
Good question. To be honest, one of the best things that I would suggest is getting involved

545
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,680
in the likes of, you know, the young professionals, kind of like the young engineers networks.

546
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:28,280
You can just go to one event, have a chat with people sort of thing. It can do absolute

547
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:33,120
wonders for like just educating you and what's like, obviously we're talking about this now

548
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:38,120
is like the current, like most up-to-date stuff. It'd be that in like five years time,

549
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,000
there's a whole nother approach and we're talking about, oh, let me, you know, like,

550
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,880
why should people, no one's doing apprenticeship and things like that. People are hiring for

551
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,520
them. I can't get it. Maybe in five years time that we're flat out and we're going

552
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,320
to let me get loads of people are there's like set schemes and it's all really well

553
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:58,720
defined and all this, you know, and those because I know we had a guy sort of in an

554
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:03,520
event, literally, we made it about to be a little engineered, like sat down with him

555
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,240
and here's the crack. Here's what I do. He was 17. He was going like, what do I do if

556
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:11,880
I'm looking at going into engineering? Do I need to go to uni? It's actually a discussion

557
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:17,360
we're having today where it's like, I need a degree. Can I do an apprenticeship? What's

558
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:22,280
the best degree for it? Do I need a building services specific? How there's chat. So many

559
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,800
people within the industry are so happy to have them and to educate people, you know,

560
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:32,800
it's ultimately as well. I think I was saying it in a podcast that started. Everyone has

561
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,480
been saying skills shortage sort of thing within construction. So I think it's been

562
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:42,440
said since like 1901, there was like an article was pulled out saying you've got a skill shortage

563
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:48,120
in building services. So everyone is wild keen to get people involved and to have those

564
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:53,600
chats and set aside time for it sort of thing. So like I was sure you would say it's probably

565
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:58,920
the same for the other side, you know, definitely, definitely. Like it's even like you're saying

566
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:03,720
I love having those chats with people been like, OK, what, what kind of what should I

567
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:08,680
do here? What be the right for it? And I have to not let my bias come across. Bill, being

568
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:14,040
like doing an apprenticeship, Bill, like, listen, whatever is right for you. These are

569
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,520
the options you're going to get great experiences with both. And in my mind, it's like financially

570
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:27,440
doing apprenticeships. Come on. Like, that's the thing you like for a degree. Some people

571
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:32,200
have to take out a student loan and it's like, you're paying that off for the next 20 years.

572
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:37,600
Buster. Like, you know, it still makes me sad every time. Yeah. It just comes in and

573
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:46,120
I go like, oh, it could have been this amount. So yeah, OK, well, I like to finish on a just

574
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:51,040
like I try to make it into a pun. And I was like trying to come up with something while

575
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,440
we're talking there. And the best I could come up with is like always build your network

576
00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:01,520
because we're talking about construction and then network. We're talking about the young

577
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:07,960
energy networks. So layered and so advanced. I always feel when I explain it, it gets more

578
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:12,560
funnier. Oh, exactly. You repeat it often again and keep repeating it until like whenever

579
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,840
people don't catch it, just keep saying the joke again. And then it's always so much better.

580
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:25,040
Exactly. Exactly. But thank you very much, Max. Thank you. Well, thank you very much.

581
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:29,480
Thanks for listening to Carbon Climates. If you follow us on Instagram at carbon underscore

582
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:35,120
climates, you can keep up to date with all our latest news and podcasts, releases and

583
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:55,440
episode updates. OK, thanks for listening. Bye. Bye.