Hello, welcome. Thanks for listening to Carbon Climates, an energy podcast,
dedicated to discussing all themes, energy, carbon and sustainability.
We also point out what's getting hot, besides from our planet. I'm your host, Enya, and today
I'm joined with my Carbon Climate and co-host, Peter, who is an NDA, an OCDA and a DEA energy
assessor. And we'll be discussing all these terms within this episode. So before we get on to today's
topic, Peter, how's your week been? It's been going pretty well. It's only Tuesday,
like, so nothing too strange. We're starting so far. We're sure something will happen later
on in the week. Yeah, but apart from that, everything is good with me. Yeah. What about you?
Yeah. I think this is my, I think this is my ninth or tenth episode. I don't know if anyone's asked me.
There we go. That's pretty good. Thanks very much. I'll meet you nearly on the double digits.
Nearly on the double digits. Yeah, I think I've just uploaded the sixth episode. So
I know it's going pretty well. It's going pretty well. I like it. But yeah, I'm going well,
you know, yourself, it's very, very busy with work. Just trying to keep your head above water.
But no, brilliant. Thanks very much for that, Peter. So can you tell us your job title?
Yes. So I am a sustainability engineer at BPP. Energy started actually only a couple months ago
there back in January. So yeah, just kind of learn, learn the ropes and how everything operates. But
yeah, it's going well so far. I'm enjoying it. The last few months of your life. Oh, unbelievable.
Of course. But no, that's really great to hear. So Peter, how long have you been in the sector?
Yeah, so I suppose I really started in the sector when I was just after I turned 18 now.
So around about seven years. It hasn't been a full, you know, full time seven years. I've been
really in part time, you know, going from a few jobs over the last few years. But in the background
I've also had my re-work going on. So just been in a lot of those energy assessments in the
background kind of thing. So that's where I've really been, you know, keeping up. My focus is
going there kind of a thing over the last few years. Yeah, but definitely a good wee sector to be involved in.
That's great. That's great to hear. And you were formerly, you used to be at an
housing association, didn't you? Yes, yes. So I was an energy officer at a housing association there
for a year. So a lot of, you know, a few interesting things just mainly to do with obviously your
your domestic properties and the kind of scope that the social housing has to deal with. You know,
there's a lot of people, a lot of properties and then a lot of people as well too. So, you know,
it's just kind of tackling those wee, you know, any areas of concern that might come up.
Very good. Very good. And you're also, so you're a sustainability engineer, but then you're also
qualified, as I was saying at the start, an NDA, OCDA and DEA. And I know you kind of do uni.
So I've talked about in the podcast where I myself, I assess construction projects,
but you're able to assess existing properties and make recommendations on how to improve their
energy efficiency. Yes, yeah. So I was in the DEA, Domestic Energy Assessor, and so got qualified
for that myself around COVID time there. We kind of did a few jobs for a few people and they just
kind of kept building them out there. And one thing that always came up was obviously there
in certain aspects of, you know, letting out properties, it helped meet certain standards.
Part of my role was helping landlords meet new standards for as cheap as possible, to be honest
with you, you know, it's all, I'm starting to money at the end of the day.
Oh yes. No, here, I would be the same if it was a focus and a my way.
No, I shouldn't say that. No, I want to, not that I have a house, like this is purely the
fear. When I get a house, I'm going to hopefully make it as energy efficient as possible. That's
brilliant. And let me ask you, see at school, did you ever envisage yourself in this sector?
No, definitely not. Basically how I came in to be involved in this sector was a teacher of mine.
He had a friend who owned a consultancy himself and he was looking for like a friend of a placement
studenty thing over the summer. And so I ended up getting involved with those guys and yeah,
just had to have it basically for like summer years and don't think you're trying to say it
was slowing down yet. So keep them, keep it on, you know.
Never look back. Never look back.
People that brings us on to today's episode topic, which is about retrofitting because Peter,
you've had experience making recommendations. Yes.
Yeah. To retrofit and we're going to explain a bit about what retrofitting is. I'm actually
going to say the episode title. So the episode title is go, let's go retrofitting. And I thought
that was like, you know, the best thing in the world. It's kind of there because I knew I wanted
to have you on and then it just like came to me. This is it. This is how we do it. Okay.
So in construction, retrofitting is where new features and technologies are added to old and
historical buildings. Buildings can be retrofitted for various reasons, such as to make them more
energy efficient, as we just talked about, or improve their climate resilience. This is directly
copied from like, you know, so examples of retrofitting can be doors can be draft proof.
And this will also reduce their air leakage. Windows can be upgraded to double glazing or
triple glazing and also draft proof. Roofs can have additional insulation added or also check out
their ventilation. I know one of my say one of my friends, but the mechanical engineer upstairs,
he was telling me about how he got his roof. He got the positive input ventilation. Yes.
The FVB system. Yeah. And he said it really helped. Floors can also be installed with insulation.
And then walls and their surfaces can be cladded or fitted with cavity wall for external wall
insulation. Yeah. And then lights can be optimized. There can be heating upgrades
or renewable energy systems can be installed like solar panels. On the site I was looking at also
get like solar panels or wind energy. And on the EPC or on the EPC software, there is an option for
turbines. Yes, I think more rural areas. So unfortunately, I've never had to use it.
Hopefully soon. Hopefully soon. Okay, well, I hope you enjoyed that general explanation listeners
and Peter, of course, you already knew this being in the sector seven years. Okay. DG know, according
to citychanger.org that retrofitting helps improve the energy efficiency ratings, which has been
proven to rise the valuation of one's home. And also the average price hike for this can be
considerable. And there's research showing that it's up the price valuation by about 24,000 pounds.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good comment. Like, you know, especially if you have a house that you
maybe been living in for 15 years and, you know, maybe you're in the next 10, 20 or you're going to
sell it. It's definitely worthwhile to make some investments, you know, energy wise, especially
when people are looking at the EPC rating that really does help. It actually helps a lot of banks
as well too for mortgages. Really helps, you know, get your evaluation for effectively getting your
house, your house for what it's worth kind of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. So it's definitely, definitely
something people should look out for and maybe pay a bit more attention to. It's EPC values of even,
you know, potential homes that are going to be purchased and stuff like that. I think that is
coming more into play now. Yes. See, when I say back, when I first started out, you could tell
like the EPCs or the SAP calculations that you get off the same software, they're more just a check
box, more like, okay, the solicitor says we need to have this. Yeah. So yeah, give me this. But now
you can tell clients are becoming more like aware or more like here, this actually is important.
Yeah. And it's not even, not even the clients I've had dealings with, like you said, the bank
and they're like, give me the EPC ratings of this because we want to calculate their EPC.
And this is the thing with it. Like, so when you're talking about EPC, there's a lot of different
names for it called EPC or SAP rating or asset rating. And yeah, so it's interesting the
terminology. Yeah, that's been used as well. Actually, it's gotten forward there last week,
a lot of English banks as well too. They're actually not willing to lend on a property
that's less than a D. So I think you could have, you know, a large maybe a remortgage or
buy more houses that, you know, these banks are coming to them and we're not going to be able
to lend against that because of the rating, which is probably like a direct reflection on the actual
price itself. And I think that's where they're taking that from is, you know, if that's a D,
that's going to be all right house. But if that's your E, it's not going to be great. You know,
we're going to have to put money into that and then that's going to have a knock on the
fact that this kind of thing. Yeah. Brilliant. And also I have one more tip for you.
Did you know homes with solar panels are more likely to sell for more than they're asking price?
And apologies. I thought that was going to have more detail there, but yeah,
apparently solar panels make them more attractive. I saw them. I just, you know,
have a free energy really, especially when we don't get many sunny days. But you know,
those days they are there. Everybody has a washing machine on them. Yeah. Yeah. This is making the
most of them. Okay. Well, thanks Peter. Thanks for your insight into the... So as we talked about your
domestic energy assessor, could you describe the exact process you go through when you survey a
building on your PC? Yes. So basically I would walk in or sorry, I arrive at the property first
and I would look at the elevations. So that would be your front and your side and your rear. And
then obviously you have your mid-tires. So it would just be the front and the rear.
And then go and take my measurements. So the measurements are used for working out the floor
area and the heat loss parameter. And then I would start to look at what is happening inside the
house. You know, what boiler is it? Is it radiators or underfloor heating? Are there TRVs on the
radiators? If there are radiators and your heating controls, you know, are there programmers? And
then I'll be looking at stuff like the window thickness, insulation thickness, and in the loft,
how many habitable rooms there are as well too. And then suppose another aspect that we'll be
looking at the actual date of the building. So you kind of after you've done a few of them,
you kind of get the food in on the brick work and you can kind of guess, you know, okay, I know that
was 1970s or I know that's going to be solid brick and because of the bricks are a different way,
which would be around the early 1900s would have been built and stuff like that there. So after a
while you kind of just get used to it. You know, exactly what you're looking for.
And then when you go in as well too, you kind of go off the top of your head if this house is going
to be good or bad. But sometimes, you know, you could easily see like, for example, I've gone into
houses where it's the oil boiler with a water tank and there's no insulation around the water tank.
And you know, there's just a big copper vessel storing your water and it's losing, you know,
heat like tomorrow. So it's been recommendations that really help the property for real estate
under 100 quid. Like, you know, you get your set up in the house, there's no LED light bulbs,
there's no, you know, insulation on the water tank, 30 quid for your installation around the
water tank and at least up to, you know, 60 to 90 quid for your light bulbs kind of a thing.
And you're actually already up a couple points for people, you know.
And it improves like, this is the thing that, like, it's probably, you've probably seen it,
but the difference between assessment between non-domestic and domestic, like domestic,
I think, like non-domestic, it's really great, it's really detailed, you can get a lot of
information from. But domestic, like, I'd be really focused on it because it affects people,
it affects your home. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're coming home to either a warm house or a cold
house and, you know, it's like, you put the heating on for two or three hours and then as
soon as you switch that heating off, how long does that house stay on the warm floor? You know,
is it going to be 20 minutes, you're freezing again, or are you going to switch it off and,
you know, you might have two or three hours of nice warm heat, similarly with your hot
water as well. One of the things when you're talking, like, I don't think people, like, people
should be entitled or people should know that they have a right to a comfortable. Exactly.
And I think about it as well too, the biggest bill most people are paying every month is their
mortgage. Yeah. So a lot of their money is going into this house and you could be going, you know,
it's, so, you know, it can be ridiculous sometimes as well too, you know, people really are not
looking. It's always like, you know, an MOT for your house. All those kind of things, you know,
go get, you get your oil changed in your car every, you know, six months at a roll, that or over time.
Same thing with any PC, make sure you're checking up and your insulation and your light bulbs and,
you know, your heating controls, because I know for a lot of people, they would just stick the
heating on all day, they wouldn't really know how to work it. Yes. Yeah. And that's one thing I
actually came across quite a bit in the social housing aspect. You know, people would just come
in or wake up in the morning, switch it on and it'd be on from nine o'clock until 10 o'clock at night.
Wow. And then knocking it off and they're spending, you know, a fortune on it. Yeah. But if you have
a reasonable program, it's each of you here, it's say if you, you know, if you're up at nine,
have it all from eight until ten. So really have, you know, a bag all from six to ten at night kind
of a thing, you know, you have to really start and look at your actual heating controls and
program to suit you best. It's going to be different as well, too. Yeah. No, you're just
right. You're just right. I think McGonagall was in her house, like, but she was like, she was the
worst for it. She'd come in, it was roasted. Then she'd be like, I have to order oil. Yeah.
You know, no wonder. Yeah. Yeah. Switching it on for nine hours. You know, when you said,
when you said about the MOT or you said about changing oil for your car, reminds me I need to
do my car. That's brilliant. Peter, thank you so much for your thoughts on that. So can I ask,
so again, we're talking about your qualifications, your OCDA, your NDA, your DEA, you've got an
alphabet after. Can you tell us about the training you went through to obtain those?
Yeah. So the OCDA on the construction domestic energy sensor that was done through
Allenhurst. It was a course basically. If I remember correctly, I think you just did a few assessments in
the house with the Allenhurst coordinator or whatever. And then you're basically, after a
couple of days, you were given your accreditation that was you sent on your merry way. And then,
you know, I suppose a lot of it is it's all well and good. You have a two day training course and
now you're an accredited assessor. But it's really about building up that experience of doing
houses and different house types and apartments and different heating systems and all that there.
Then with the domestic energy assessor, so the EPCs, that was done online over a three day course.
So there's two minds when it comes to the training. You have the one where you pay for the
classroom course slightly longer, but you come out with your accreditation at the end. Now,
me personally, I haven't done it, so I can't really speak on it too much. But
people would say, don't be doing the online course. You're not learning anything. But
I disagree with that. You're still getting that walk through of your EPC software.
But we were given a portfolio. So you basically did two with the trainers and you did three by
yourself. I think doing the three by yourself with effectively no one helping you is a wee bit better
because it's more real world. Effectively, you have to set up appointments to go to this person's house,
serve it, do it all yourself. And then obviously you're giving feedback and you need a change.
And whereas if you were doing it in this classroom environment, everybody's going out
in the same house, everybody's doing the same. It's almost like a sense of security goes right out.
Just if I don't know what's happening, I'll just ask them. They'll be able to tell me. But if
done online by yourself, you've or yourself to blame kind of a thing. You can learn from mistakes
and stuff like that. And then similarly to the no domestic energy assessor course, it was pretty
much the same process as the domestic. But yeah, the no domestic is just a different kind of fish
like when it comes to detail and stuff like that. No, I remember you said there about like building
up experience, but I remember I think I was here a year. So kind of like they was like assessing a
year before I did any actual qualifications. And when I went to do the qualifications, I'm like,
brilliant. I know everything. But see, looking back now, I'm like, oh my goodness. I didn't know
everything. It's only after the experience you build up over time. Exactly. Like it's all well
and good. You go into a house and survey it. But when you have a tenant there sitting breathed on
your neck asking a million questions and why does this not work? Or even a landlord come back to why
you need a 39. Even though it might be a 36, it might be more here. Yeah, no, it's not.
It's like, wait, wait, wait. How's this works? Unfortunately, you know, the job. Would you have
any tips for like any guides to read up on for saying anyone who wants to become an energy
assessor? I suppose a lot of the Almhurst stuff is really, really informative. I think Almhurst is
probably the gold standard when it comes to energy sensors. It's a couple of the UK. I should tag them
in this. Give me a shout out here. Am I going to be caught? So, you know, just any other tactical
guides and be a good read up on them. There's a lot of retrofit assessor stuff.
Similarity as well. If I was going for one of them, it would be Almhurst kind of thing.
There's also in general for energy assessment, there's the SOP 2012 or SOP 10 manual. These are
all free manuals from the BRE website. So they can be accessed. I'll post links to them.
Brilliant. Okay, well, Peter, we're coming up to a section in which it's a section, I tailor
towards each guest in the episode. So it's called them. It's actually, it's the same as the title.
It's called Let's Go Retrofitting. I think when people see the episode title, they'll be like,
wow, that's, that's groundbreaking. Okay. Can you tell me when the first EPC was done in the UK?
I was going to say probably, I think 2009, but I have a feeling it might be a wee bit before then.
You know what? 2009 is actually, I think when the first EPC was done for Northern Ireland,
here 2008 or 2009. I looked it up and the co-pilot they knew was able to tell me. Okay. So
first of August 2007 is when they were first introduced into England and Wales. Okay.
They were introduced due to the requirements of the EU directive of energy performance of buildings
and were part of your home energy pack, your E-Hit. Which was, and apparently this was the
thing before EPCs. This was the home energy pack or home, sorry, not the home energy pack, my bad,
the home information pack. And this was played by people who were selling the properties with four
bedrooms or more. And little fact that the home information pack, it's no longer required. It's
just the EPC. So kind of, you come on this podcast to everyday's learning day. Okay.
Second question. Do you know how many buildings the NI energy strategy stated it needs to retrofit
each year in order to meet their outline targets of carbon reduction of buildings?
Oh, I have no clue, but I'll throw a guess of this is each year, not in total.
No, actually it does give a number. I was going to be like, well, it gives me a percentage, but no,
hold on, it gives me a number. So each year I'm going to say at least 15,000.
You know what? You're close. Okay. It's 50,000.
Yes, it is estimated that 70% of buildings in use in 2010 will still exist in 2050. So we may need
to retrofit approximately 50,000 buildings each year around three times the current level we're at now.
So this, yeah, that's a big task to be really increased focus likes of retrofitting. The
minimum energy efficiency standards state what EPC rating is required in order to flat out a building.
Can you tell me that rating? I think I can't.
Now, is it a 39E? You know what? You went really in detail that you get the number. It is an E.
There you go.
Yes. So April 20, 2008 saw further implementation of the minimum energy efficiency standards in
England and Wales. And I think something applied to New York and Ireland.
Yeah, we're almost so far behind.
We always, we either encompass it or we don't encompass it. Like, you know, it's very, it's
annoying. And I think April 2020, did we have an executive then? I don't know.
We probably didn't. Yes. So April 2020 saw the implementation of the energy efficiency standards.
This makes it illegal for private landlords to rent out any properties which have EPC rating
worse than an E. And you must have an EPC rating that is not a standard.
And you must have an EPC if you rent out or sell the premises. It's a building under construction,
which is about to be finished. And you've changed a number of parts to the building
on separate occasions. So it involves upgrading the heating, air condition, or ventilation,
or changing the actual structure, which is kind of falls under retrofit.
But yeah. Okay. So like, if you don't have it, so if any of the stuff happens, you like any of the
following criteria, like rent or sell, building under construction, or you change effects heating,
which we're going to, which will affect the energy for the EPC rating. Can you tell me how much you'll
be fined if you don't have one? If you don't have one? I would say 20 grand.
Close. It's actually between 500 and 5,000.
Do that.
But yes, it's based on the rateable value of the building.
So if you don't make an EPC available to any prospective buyer or tenant.
Yeah. Well, thanks for playing the Let's Go Retro.
I hope you did well.
But yes. Okay. So NI Energy Strategy wants to deliver energy savings of 25% from buildings
and industry by 2030, and ensure all new buildings are net zero, ready by 2026 and 2027,
or earlier if practical. As an experienced energy successor, with existing housing stock,
and an OCDA. Do you think this is possible? So the question is basically,
are they on track for getting 25% of these houses up to standard? In your opinion,
do you think they would be on track? No. No chance. No, I think there's just, there's not enough
attention. But the worst of that is definitely getting, you know, more and more people are
getting interested and talking about it. Like, but I think we're, we're, we're way off, like,
2030, which is about six, six years. Don't say that.
I know. So, you know, I think there's definitely, no, I don't think, personally, no, I don't think
it would be. You know what, you're exactly right. I've got the kind of same opinion. I see a lot of
people talking about it. Yeah. Raising awareness, which is amazing. But I'm like, where's the action?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I hate is even, like the problem I see now, and I've talked about this in,
I think in the first episode was about the energy assessment software and the software methodology.
Northern Ireland, Brander, SAP 2009. Okay. And that is a software, as you can guess,
which came out in 2009. That's 15 years ago. 15 years ago. And now we've got like, you know,
they've told us like, oh, make a percentage reduction, but we're still using a 15 year old
software. And it's actually a software that's considered security risk. Like they only have it
on one computer in the check in, um, QA office. Uh, but like the fact we've got that, like,
we're not, we're not, we can't even assess them properly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, so even when
like someone goes in, makes a change, they're like, oh, how did that help my, help my building?
And they're like, oh yeah, you went up two points. You're like, what's the point? Like,
I'm not going to make the... Yeah. It's getting that much more, you're
fairly about two points. Yeah. Exactly. So it's, it's annoying. And yeah, it's, it's, it is annoying.
But one of the things that was used to address this, they said, oh yeah, Northern Ireland,
we're going to go under the new energy assessment methodology in 2025,
sub 10, but that's, that's in 2025. And I'm like, so that's another year. So, um, so yeah. So then
you've only got five years to meet the 20, if you want. And so that's definitely going to be a big
job. You know, this is that's up 10 is quite, it's only came out there last year. Yeah. So there's
basically going to be 14 years difference. Yeah. You know, so what's that going to have
cost wise for architects, builders, exactly. X, Y, Z. Like, you know, it's going to be quite a
shock to the system. I think my kind of thing is that you've got energy assessors, aren't there?
You've got existing energy assessors, you're employed by a state agents. They go around,
they assess, um, houses. Okay. And they're used to the methodology, but then they're going to have to
get used to this. And they've been in Northern Ireland. They've been using SAP 2009 for the last
15 years. They've got used to that software. And then when SAP 10 comes out, they're like, hold on,
what is this? Yeah. I've asked like, I've asked this in the consultation. I didn't ask about SAP,
but I asked about the one I bring in, you know, the overheating criteria. They want to bring that
into Northern Ireland. And I'm like, so I asked them, like, there's going to be any training
involved. Like, you know, are you going to like appeal to local energy assessors? Yeah. Because
why is it like a government funded kind of a training scenario? Like, yeah,
because a lot of the overheating assessment that would take place would be done over in
England or Scotland or Wales, but like Northern Ireland, there is no requirement to do anything.
And it's like, so why would people get qualified for something that's not going to affect them?
Yeah, exactly. And then so that's going to be another criteria that just comes in and shocks
people. I have to chuck out all this money to get trained in this. And it's annoying because
they're implementing these really great measures. They're being like, yeah, we're going to do this.
That's really great, but you don't have the tools to do it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
I told you, so just kind of went off in attention.
But that's great. No, I'm glad we're in agreement with that question. Peter,
thank you so much for coming on. You're really great to have. You're having me? Yeah, no,
of course. So just before we go, do you have any advice for future prospective engineers,
modellers or energy assessors looking to get into this sector? My advice would be get in this. Get
as much experience as you can from people around you. Do as many quarters as you can.
Try to get as many letters off your name as you can. But this is a sector that's really grown.
It's only getting bigger and bigger. I don't know about you, I've been hearing people on the radio
and emails, adverse on TV. That's switch and save. How much you save on your energy bills,
do the X, Y, Z. So energy is coming in hard here. And I think it's one of these sectors
that's going to get growing and growing. It's only been really big the last 20, 30 years.
Yeah, I would say that. So imagine 20, 30 years in the future. What's this going to be?
So I think there's plenty of money being made in it. It is interesting work. The thing about it is
no two projects are the same, realistically. There's many different types of buildings and
different types of heating systems. It is an interesting sector. It's going to be
only up. So get in there. Thanks very much, Peter. My advice would be,
I usually have something prepared and it's usually fun based. I'd be like, join the fun.
Just join the madness. But no, thanks for coming on, Pete. And you'll definitely be back on.
Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to Carbon Climates. If you follow us on Instagram
at carbon under draw climates, you can keep up to date with all our latest news and information on
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