You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality
Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality.
I'm Johnston and with me again this week I have
Mansour. Hello. Hello. And we've done it. We've
done the whole season. This is it. We're going
to talk about the reality war, the season finale.
So we have covered, for the first time, it's
the first time Spodcast has done this, we have
covered the entire series on a week by week basis
as released. So that's quite good. I feel like
it's an achievement and I'm actually quite surprised
it's taken us three series of spodcasts to do
this, but I've enjoyed doing it. I've enjoyed
going over this series and it's sort of kept
me more engaged with this series than I think
I was with last year's. Last year, Connor and
I did sort of two episodes. So we did the first
half in one episode and the second half in the
next and we didn't quite get to do the whole...
speculation thing that we've done here and that
kind of thing so it's been quite enjoyable so
we'll dive straight in the reality war a lot
goes on in this and the one thing I've seen a
lot of people say is it's nothing like what they
were expecting and I think I'm I'm on that list
of people I've spoken over the last few weeks
about Things we're expecting to see, expecting
to happen, how's everything going to be squeezed
into one episode, all of this kind of thing.
And actually the reality war kind of got things
over and done with as quickly as it could and
then just took a bit of time to breathe. It gave
us a chance to say goodbye to Belinda and say
goodbye to this doctor because we got something
that I've been saying I'd like to see ever since
2005, which is a... more or less, surprise regeneration.
You know, it wasn't announced. We didn't know
that somebody was going to appear, somebody else
was going to appear at the end of the episode
as maybe the new Doctor. It just kind of happened.
And I really did like that. I really, really
like the way this was handled because it's always
a big sort of news story when we get a regeneration.
You know, it's... The actor announces they're
leaving. We go through this whole process of
who's going to be the next doctor. There's all
the random guesses from the bookies. All the
same names get sort of thrown up and thrown about.
And the bookies kind of settle on somebody a
few days before and they are inevitably right.
And that seems to have happened, I think, ever
since Matt Smith was announced. to have that
surprise here. So I'm kind of jumping towards
the end of the episode because, you know, the
big talking point is the fact it was a regeneration
story. I get the impression that regeneration
story is maybe not what it started life as. I
think we know there were some reshoots. We know
that maybe the ending to this episode wasn't
the one as originally planned. There do seem
to be some things that have kind of just been
left. Like, for example, Susan never made the
appearance that we were all expecting and speculating
about. And I even last week said, I think we
need to give a good chunk of the episode over
to Susan returning. And it just didn't happen.
And I hope that that is something that's picked
up. I really do hope that, you know, moving forward,
we do get something with Susan because it seems
strange to have Caroline Ford in to do. what
she did in Interstellar Song Contest, and then
she popped up a tiny little bit in Wishworld,
and then obviously the reality war had to go
in a totally different direction because at some
point we've realised that we need a new Doctor.
We need it to be a regeneration story. Overall,
considering... how packed it was, I thought it
was a pretty good episode. I think on the whole,
it was a decent episode. I think there are things
within that episode that I'm not too keen on
and the sort of rushed, strange last 15 minutes
that sort of felt disconnected from everything
else. And like I say, I suspect when the original
plan felt a bit jarring and it's a real shame
to see Shooty go. He's been a fantastic doctor.
I could talk for hours about that, but Ultimately,
the episode as a whole, for the most part, did
what I wanted it to. Could have done something
more interesting with Omega, because Omega's
a far more interesting character than the way
he was portrayed in this, which was basically
a big CGI clawing face. But I think that's kind
of made up for by the fact that we've... We've
had some really good Rani stuff. I like both
the incarnations of the Rani and I liked them
even more in this episode than I did in Wishworld.
It was good to see them have that confrontation
with the Doctor. We definitely got a good look
into the Rani's character and how she just sees
the universe as one big experiment and morals
don't matter and all that kind of thing. I...
It was sort of... like what I was expecting I
think because I went into it with the knowledge
of rumours about behind the scenes issues and
like late in the day reshoots and maybe that
sort of primes you to look out for these things
but I can't think of off the top of my head another
example of any tv doctor who story where uh like
that seems like the effects of that seem so obvious
and there's sort of there's two layers to it
because and this is speculation but it seems
to me that uh at the point at which um poppy
just disappears around there like everything
after that seems to have been swapped in or added
in quite late in the day because we saw publicity
stills for scenes that are not in the finished
episode but then there's another layer before
that which is I think one of my issues with the
whole season looking back is the speculation
again not confirmed at all that Belinda was swapped
in for Ruby in season two And having seen this
last episode, that seems more and more likely
to me. I'll get into specifics about the ending
and specific moments, but Ruby is the one who
has all the big hero moments in this episode,
and Belinda is literally shut away in a box for
part of it, and for a really crucial part of
it. Yeah. And it makes me a bit disappointed
that we didn't get more with her character over
this whole season. Having said that, with both
of those two big potential adjustments that they
had to make, it does a reasonable job. There
are things I liked about it, like some really
good visuals. Like you said, the Rani. Both versions
of the Rani were very good. And yeah, there were
good moments. Oh, actually, I did like Conrad's
story and how that was wrapped up. But yeah,
when we get into the specifics of that, I thought
there were some potentially missed opportunities
there as well to wrap up some other threads relating
to the Doctor. Yeah, there was stuff to like,
but maybe I was primed to look out for it. But
the joins and the adjustments behind the scenes
just seemed really, really obvious to me with
this one. Yeah, you do sort of have to ask, is
this the story from the new Who era with the
most sort of obvious? behind the scenes struggles
like I know we've had episodes that have had
a pretty difficult recording and there's been
little errors here and there and that kind of
thing but is this the one where it shows the
most but then again is that just because it's
actually a big regeneration story and was never
meant to be yeah that's one of the biggest things
because I feel like this season was written as
the beginnings of the arc for this doctor all
that stuff that was like so out of character
with that moment of torturing kid in interstellar
song contest that's just been left whereas if
this was like you know his like his middle season
or second out of four seasons I can see how there
would be an arc about him going further down
that road and maybe the companion pulling him
back or Susan coming in and being a bigger part
of the story and pulling him back or like a moment
of hubris where he just goes too far and that
kind of like the end of time leads to the regeneration
but it really really feels like that story was
starting to be told and and then it was just
cut short in and Yeah, and right in the middle,
basically. Yeah, I mean, every, well, not every
other Doctor we've had, but the majority of new
Who Doctors have done three seasons. And actually,
I don't think any of them have been properly
set up for a three -season arc. I don't think
any of them, you know, okay, Jodie Whittaker's
arc sort of started to get going in her second
season. never quite fully came to fruition because
of covid and flux being cut down as a result
and you know made under restrictions all this
kind of thing but yeah you're right it feels
as though we were starting to figure out what
we were doing with this doctor where he was going
to go and i do think that one more season we'd
have we'd have probably seen it through we'd
have got everything that we yeah could have been
three three three year three -year story that's
what it felt like to me but like i i think like
looking back at the post 2005 doctors i think
nine ten twelve and then also like the kind of
um mayfly ones like um the war doctor and the
14th i think all of those have got a coherent
compelling character arc um it's not that i don't
like the other doctors but i think 11, definitely
13 with the COVID disruption and then now 15
with this behind the scenes pivot potentially.
I don't think they were as well served with kind
of telling a coherent story over their eras.
And that's not essential because like classic
Doctors didn't always have that or they had it
in very subtle ways. Like, you know, Tom Baker
just kind of changed. like the sort of tone and
performance, there wasn't any great sort of explicit
arc or story going across the whole thing. But
I think the thing that makes it stick out with
the 15th is that they were making steps, like
quite deliberate steps to start that story and
then it got stopped short. Which is definitely
a shame. Yeah. Yeah. It's... Yeah, I can't help
but think that this era is always going to feel
a bit incomplete as a result. Like, we've definitely
got a Doctor gone too soon. And funnily enough,
it feels like we don't know him as well as we
knew the Ninth Doctor when he left in Parting
of the Ways. That's really interesting because
we know now quite... christopher has talked about
it quite openly that there was a lot of tension
and issues behind the scenes with that season
yet you watch that back and it it looks like
it was always written to be this like really
compelling uh one season arc um for the doctor
yeah uh yeah so it's a shame that they couldn't
adjust and bring things together in the same
way this time round. Yeah, the ninth Doctor's
Era was obviously cut off early, but they knew
it was happening and the whole season kind of
built towards it. Yeah. Whereas this really does
feel like someone's gone, oh, crap, we need to
do regeneration now, quick, tack it on the end.
Which is such a shame. I would love to know what
happened originally. And we know that... We know
it exists. There must have been a more or less
complete version of this episode as it would
have, should have been before they had to turn
it into a regeneration story. And it seems like
very late in the day because I think it was Disney
Plus in Germany or the fact that production skills
stills from an unused ending are out there in
the public. That to me says that this was like
really down to the wire in terms of swapping
things out. Yeah. Oh, well, all we can do is
wait. One day we'll find out more. It's now my
sort of second most I want to know what was going
on originally after Rogue One. I still want to
see the original version of Rogue One before
other issues happen there. Different reasons,
of course. But, yeah, I'm very curious to know
what was actually meant to happen in this episode.
You know, it's safe to assume that Susan was
meant to be part of it, I think. I've seen, again,
like nothing confirmed, but I've heard a lot
of YouTubers and reviewers repeating rumours
about there was this party at the end. That's
what we see in the production stills. Poppy was
going to have disappeared. But then you see everyone
celebrating and Susan standing off to the side
with Poppy. Now, some versions I've heard it's
just Susan and other versions it's Susan with
Poppy. And yeah, it's sort of setting up her
coming back in in the following season. So, yeah.
And there was that behind the scenes interview
with Caroline Ford. where either she's just just
has a very doctor who like wardrobe at home or
she was in costume for different scenes that
we didn't see in interstellar yes so yeah i'm
pretty sure she filmed something else and there
was um uh belinda's dad uh whose agency posted
stuff on online saying you know our clients in
in doctor who and then he was Nowhere to be seen
in this episode. Scenes were cut. Yeah. I'm guessing
he was at the party that doesn't exist now. Yeah.
Maybe one day we'll find out. I hope we do. It
sounds like a sort of fantastic, curious episode
that never happened. Well, I wonder, it's not
beyond possibility for the original script to
be uploaded because it might be this is just
a thing of there was no major falling out between
individuals. It was just shooting up. I wanted
to progress with his career and he didn't want
to hold on indefinitely for Disney to possibly
or possibly not renew. If that's the case and
it all ended amicably, then maybe we will see
the original shooting scripts uploaded in the
next few months. It'd be very interesting if
there were. Fingers crossed. It's something I'd
certainly like to have a look at and talk about
in the future. Or maybe the book will cover the
other timeline. The Writer's Tale 2. Oh yeah,
that. But I was thinking of The Target. style
novelization oh of course yes all right yes also
a possibility um so of course another i think
victim of this big cut reshoot change whatever
is belinda's departure um yeah like you know
i get the impression that maybe that wasn't as
originally planned and You know, her timeline
was entirely changed as a result of the episode.
And it was, I mean, it was a nice way to write
a Doctor Who companion out. You know, it worked.
It was a very Doctor Who -y way for a character
to go. But at the same time, A, it's a real shame
for this character to go. B, I'm very, very annoyed
that she spent a chunk of her last episode literally
shut up in a box. All for no reason as well,
I'll hastily add. And the thing I'm always going
to say about Belinda is I wish we'd got more.
I really do. And I absolutely loved sort of that
scene in the TARDIS with the Doctor, Belinda
and Ruby. And it just made me think, God, we
could have had a series of that. That would have
been amazing. That would have been absolutely
fantastic if we'd have had the three of them
properly travelling together. Yeah, and maybe
if there was going to be a season three with
this Doctor, that would have been the way to
go to actually do Belinda justice in an additional
season. I didn't like the way she was used here
at all. Like the stuff you mentioned about she's
put in a box, but then when she comes out of
the box, it's a... It's played as an unambiguously
happy ending. If I'm understanding it right,
the universe has shifted and where she didn't
have a child before, she now has a child who
happens to look exactly like Poppy, the space
baby. Although I've seen different interpretations
of it saying that she did always have a baby
called Poppy. Don't understand that at all because
it is the Wishworld that created Poppy in the
first place, isn't it? That's where she came
from. The version of Poppy that we... Well, there's
two versions of Poppy we see, aren't there? Or
three. There's the original Space Babies one.
There's the Wishworld version who's half Time
Lord. And then there's the post... shifted universe
version who's 100 % human and yeah as far as
I can understand it Belinda when we saw her in
the robot revolution did not have a child in
that version of the universe so no so if that's
the case I just find it really I just find it
a bit weird that the Doctor's made that decision.
This whole era started with the 14th Doctor and
Donna, and it wasn't the sole reason they got
those two very popular actors back into Doctor
Who, but one of the reasons for bringing Donna
back as a character was to fix some of the issues
with her exit and... You know, there's stuff
about her not choosing what the Doctor did to
her in the last moments of Journey's End. And
it just seems really weird to me that you then
end this new era with the Doctor choosing to
change the companion's life and make her a mother
when she didn't choose that. And I know it's
complicated because wish well Belinda would have
chosen that. But I don't. There's nothing to
say that the original Robot Revolution version
of Belinda would have chosen this life. No. Yeah,
that just felt really weird to me. And she has
that moment at the end of Robot Revolution where
she has that really good moment of setting boundaries
and saying, you know, don't scan me without my
consent. And I think there's a moment in this
episode where the Doctor just scans Poppy without...
without asking and it just seems to like throw
out all of that really interesting stuff about
companion who you know is setting boundaries
and making choices of her own and and instead
the doctor's kind of done what conrad was doing
in a different way and just like chosen for her
and said oh no your happy ending is being a mother
which you know might be a really happy life for
her but it's not what she chose yeah it's it's
definitely odd and you know when when consent
is set up as being something so important to
this character exactly if you didn't bring it
up you could maybe fudge it but it's yeah it's
it's literally part of how this character is
established. Yeah. Yeah, I really do think we've
just not got the character we should have had
out of Belinda. And I think it's a shame that
her exit did sort of get wrapped up in everything
else that had to be done in this episode because
she started off so well. Like the first three
episodes, she is such a fan. fantastic character,
a fantastic companion. And ever since then, we've
had stories that she's barely in, that she's
not an important part of, or as you have sort
of speculated and kind of convinced me of, really,
she was just a replacement last minute for Ruby.
Yeah, it's a real shame because I really wish
we'd have got more out of Belinda because I...
the setup was so good. There was so much promise
there. We really were on for a great companion
in those first few episodes. And all of it just
seemed to fall by the wayside as the series went
on. Well, like one or the other, like if you're
going to bring her in, then rework it. And I'm
saying this as though it's easier and understand
like, you know, they might've been working around
a lot of, a load of different budgetary and time
constraints to make this happen. Um, But ideally,
if you're going to make that swap, then rework
the season so that it tells a better story for
her. Or, you know, it would have been, and again,
we don't know why it might have happened, but
there might have been a better version of season
two where Ruby did stick around. Because you
have that line in Space Babies that seems to
directly set up Wishworld, where the Doctor says
to Poppy, you know... We're not your parents,
but I wish we were. And he's talking about him
and Ruby. So that's not addressed at all. Whereas
I think if Ruby was still the main companion
in season two, you would have a big flashback
to that line to sort of underscore, oh, something's
rippled back in time and that wish has become
real. But I don't think we heard that line again
in flashbacks. This week? No, I certainly don't
recall it. Yeah, it's a shame that it's the way
it's gone because I really do think, you know,
we had a fantastic actor. You know, we had a
good character and we've just not quite seen
the potential. And I promise this is the last
time I'll grumble about it. You're not going
to get. everything you want out of a character
in an eight episode season like a companion should
not be around for eight episodes and then that's
it it just doesn't work these are characters
that we're supposed to travel with and learn
about and you know become fond of and then when
you do get an exit it becomes more meaningful
and it just doesn't feel like any of the impact
there's supposed to have been with this episode
was earned with belinda i've seen it said and
i agree that um actually ruby almost had more
development this year than belinda did i think
belinda had like you said a great introduction
and was and was really promising at the start
in terms of just the performance in the character
but ruby had lucky day and then ruby had the
really important big hero moments in this episode.
And off the top of my head, I can't think of
Belinda getting... We didn't have a Doctor Light
where Belinda got to take centre stage, like
we did with 73 Yards and Lucky Day. So she didn't
get that opportunity. Or did we? Did we have
anything where the Doctor wasn't as present?
Not really. Five minutes of Interstellar Song
Contest. So she didn't get the chance to kind
of take center stage in the way that Ruby has
done in two episodes across the seasons. And
yeah, like we've already said, it's such a contrast
with her just being literally locked away. And
then Ruby is playing that really pivotal role
of teleporting in and taking on Conrad. Yeah.
I certainly hope we do see more of Ruby because
otherwise she just got abandoned and forgotten.
That was probably a factor of the reshoots. Totally,
yeah. It was almost like a bit back to front
because I thought season one was a bit overplayed
in terms of how big a deal the departure was.
it was almost like doomsday levels of trauma,
but they weren't being ripped apart. It was,
she's got a family that she wants to spend a
bit of time with, you know, just take the TARDIS
forward a few months. What's the problem? And,
and then this, this episode was the opposite
of like, oh, okay. It's the end of the year era.
And there's not even a moment to, to say goodbye
to Ruby. With any look. ruby is now part of this
sort of extended group of unit characters like
you know we can have her recurring in the same
way we have kate and mel and all of the others
you know shirley and hopefully hopefully that's
that's where it's going to go because if that's
ruby's final scene it would be such a shame it
really would um we talked a lot about problems
and issues but like you mentioned um like seeing
the three of them together in the tardis i like
that scene for another reason which was the the
folding of the jacket i think that is one of
the um that's like one of the most kind of sort
of emotional like poetic moments that they've
been in doctor who and it was like it's like
i would have liked a more coherent story with
russell t davis adding that sort of depth and
emotion to things um and and and if we were going
to do this huge sweeping arc about the gods then
that sort of that type of magical realism where
reality's bending a little bit and and and you're
using it to tell stories about what emotions
people are going through then yeah i would have
liked more than that more of that and less of
like giant skeleton versions of omega yeah um
yeah absolutely and it's it feels like there's
an awful lot of surface level stuff and i don't
think really we'll ever know how much of that
is through necessity and how much of that is
through what was actually there on the page to
start with yeah um which yeah just the I mean,
the whole God storyline, where do we stand with
that now? Nothing feels resolved. Nothing even
feels paused for the end of a season. I'm just
very curious as to... I think it's wrapped up.
Again, maybe it was wrapped up a year earlier
than intended and maybe that's why it doesn't
feel complete. But I think... I'm trying to think
of anything that confirms it directly, but the
impression I came away from it was... That, like,
that magic stuff has been put away. Well, because
he said no more wishes. That seemed to be drawing
a line under all of the sort of magic, gods -related
stuff that was going on. We'll see, moving forward
anyway. But it kind of feels like there should
have been more to it than that. And, you know,
there's still references to the boss. You know,
the boss of the hotel, is that the same as the
Meeps boss that was mentioned way back when in
Starbeast? And, you know, there's still, there
are hanging story threads. There are things there
that need resolving. Like, you know, is Mavity
ever going to go anywhere? Well, the other big
one is Rogue, which it seems... that again seems
like something that was cut short that seems
obvious for like in season three there would
have been an episode with the doctor saving him
or them reuniting it just uh yeah which could
still happen yeah with a different doctor but
it's it yeah that feels really incomplete to
me as well that you would make such a big deal
of their relationship and then it's it's like
And to bring him back in for that little green
screen appearance on the TV as well, it's almost
like, would it have been better to have taken
that out rather than draw attention to the fact
that that thread was left angling? You could
argue, would it have been better to take Susan
out of Interstellar Song Contest as well? Yeah,
or at least not bring her back for the little
flashbacks in. and, you know, have replaced both
Rogue and Susan in Wishworld, at least, so that
you're not bringing them both up again. Yeah.
It's almost like a reminder of unfinished storylines.
Yeah. It's like, oh, yeah, this is happening
still, by the way. Yeah. I hope there is some
clarity on the show's future, what's going on,
what the deal with Billy Piper, and we haven't
discussed Billy Piper yet. What's the deal there?
Because everything that's happened so far seems
to have gone out of its way to not confirm that
Billy Piper is playing the Doctor. At the end
it was introducing Billy Piper and the press
release is all, you know, it never mentions Billy
Piper as the Doctor, it just says Billy Piper
is back. And there's a line about, is it, you
know, one last trip in the TARDIS or something
like that. Again, this feels like it's setting
something else up, but this is going to be solved
fairly short term. I think we're getting a Christmas
special maybe at some point, Billy Piper. I don't
know. That's my guess. Next year, though. Do
you think they'll be able to film something for
this year? Do I think it's possible? Yes. But
it would have to happen very, very, very flipping
soon. Surely. Yeah, I really don't know what's
happening with that. It feels like everything
feels like it's left in a very, very funny place
at the moment. And all along, I've been going
all of these rumors of cancellation, blah, blah,
blah, a load of nonsense. And right now it's
sort of, well, no, I don't think it's canceled.
I think we're going to get more Doctor Who and
I think we're going to get more Doctor Who relatively
soon, maybe a year or two. But we're in this
just odd limbo where we've got a Doctor Who no
one actually wants to say is the Doctor. We've
had a very, very strange, I don't want to say
botched, ending to Chuty's era, but certainly
not a smooth ending. I think, yeah, we need something.
Like, I think we need more Doctor Who as soon
as possible just to kind of convince casual viewers,
whatever you want to say, that... no, this isn't
an absolute mess and it is going somewhere. Or
we need new adventures to freshen the franchise
up and get it out of a rut by trying new and
different things. But I think the problem is
that that won't happen because we have big finishes
like for the last 20 odd years kind of being
in the forefront of extended universe stuff.
So if it does go off of TV, people are going
to look to Big Finish first before a niche series
of novels. And at the end of the day, Big Finish
is really starting to fire up the idea of ongoing
series again. We've not had much in the way of
ongoing series from Big Finish really, the monthly
range ending and that kind of thing. But we're
getting... bi -monthly 13th Doctor and 9th Doctor
series coming up. You know, we're getting Jodie
Whittaker at Big Finish at long last. It's not
taking that long, but at long last. And we're
getting the 9th Doctor and Rose together. Yes,
she might be playing, or she might have stories
of her playing Rose being released while she's
filming stories as the Doctor. If that's what
she is. Yeah, it's very interesting. I wonder
if they've danced around naming her as the Doctor
just as a kind of safety mechanism. Maybe she's
not contracted to do anything specific because
they don't have anything confirmed. So is it
as simple as that? It's just like dancing around
it a little bit because she is not contracted
to be the Doctor in any upcoming stories at the
moment. Yeah, was it just a case of, Billy, will
you come and stand in front of a green screen
for us? It'll make an amazing shot at the end
of an episode. I think because of how late it
was, it feels like it was pretty much that. It
was like, who will be a familiar face? Who isn't
David Tennant again? Yeah, who will be able to
come in and just do that moment? I have to admit,
having heard rumours that... There was going
to be a regeneration. I'm still calling it a
surprise regeneration. It wasn't officially announced
in any way. But having heard the rumours, expecting
it and all this kind of thing, I kind of hoped
they'd go with Joe Martin. How good would that
have been? Yeah, we should have linked up with
her line about her story being told or being
finished. one day in the story in the engine
that would have been a really nice link even
if it was just a special with her but again I
think I think that would have made sense in terms
of it would have been nice but I feel like they're
also with the renewal being uncertain they're
also thinking about what is going to grab the
most attention what's going to make the news
and sadly I think like Billy Piper who's who's
an amazing actor, she's going to get more space
in news headlines than Joe Martin is. Yeah, very
true. It does kind of make me slightly worried
that we're going to fall into this phase of every
time it looks like Doctor Who's in trouble, we
are going to bring back somebody from the David
Tennant era. Well, the 15th is like... Bookended
by David Tennant and Billy Piper. But yeah, are
we just reusing an old trick here? I don't know.
We'll see. Anyway, it's kind of unreasonable
to speculate at this point because all we have
had is two seconds at the end of an episode.
Yeah. We'll see. Well, just a few other points
to kind of fire through. I don't know about you,
but my highlight, absolute highlight of this
episode was Jodie Whittaker's appearance. I thought
that was absolutely wonderful. Like, she just
came in, she gave it all the energy in the world.
I honestly think it was her five best minutes
as the Doctor, and it really makes me wish she'd
have stuck around and done a season with Russell
T. Davis or something, because she was just fantastic.
For the first time ever, I thought, wow, I actually
really miss this doctor. I really do. And it's
really set me up for big finish next month. Yeah,
I'm looking forward to her. I feel like she could
be like Colin Baker levels of being given the
chance to do stuff on audio that she didn't get
the chance to do on TV. That moment was a bit,
it's kind of... like if you're looking at it
objectively, you could say it's a bit unnecessary,
like to just throw that in. She could have been
like a hologram or it could have been just like
some other thing that prompts him to take action.
But I didn't mind it because of exactly what
you said of like how good it was to see her.
And I think the attention to detail as well,
like I think the music gets a bit more synthy
as she comes in. So it's mimicking that Saganakanola
style of music. when she's walking down the platform
um yeah it was just great to see her and she
yeah you're right it would have been amazing
to have had like at least a few specials with
her because because i don't think we ever have
had that have we because doctors tend to go with
their showrunners yeah there's not been any overlap
in post 2005. No, there isn't at all. The line,
I laughed out loud with the line about Yaz, because
of how accurate it was, but also how sad it was.
And the way it was played was really nice as
well, like the way the 15th Doctor says, oh no,
you never do. And it's kind of like playfully
pointing out some of the... missed opportunities,
I think, in that era. But in a sort of, yeah,
like a gentle way. But it's, yeah, you look back
at the 13th Doctor's era and you do think, you
know, how would have things been if they'd just
been a bit braver with some of the decisions
around all that stuff? Yeah, it kind of, when
you look back at the 13th Doctor's era, it had
so much going for it. And there's a lot of unrealised
potential there. And I do think COVID is a big,
big factor in this. But, yeah, we, you know,
just the way it felt that we didn't get as many
episodes as we should have done. And, you know,
Legend of the Sea Devils, it's another one where
it's quite clearly a bit of a troubled production
where things didn't go the right way and changes
were made last minute and all that kind of thing.
we could have got so much more out of that era
and it's just kind of a shame that it went the
way it did. But yeah, it was so good to see Jodie
Whittaker's daughter again. Like I say, it made
me realise I've actually missed this incarnation
and now I'm very, very excited about getting
the further adventures with Big Finish and I
really hope that that ends up being a great series.
Yeah. When you said, like, your favourite moment
of the episode, my first thought was the Two
Ronnies joke with Anita Dobson. Do you know how
long it took me to get that? Honestly, it was
like two days later. It was like on Monday. I
just suddenly went, Two Ronnies. Oh, bloody hell.
What did you think it meant in context then?
I mean, I thought it was just quoting the Two
Ronnies. I totally got that it was quoting Two
Ronnies. But the whole Two Ronnies thing, that.
That's what took me two days and I genuinely
just went, oh, for God's sake, should have got
that straight away. But it was brilliant. Yeah,
it was one of the best bits of the episode, even
if I didn't get it first time. It sort of excuses
Mrs. Flood shifting into that conspicuously subservient
mode for the last couple of episodes. We knew
what she was doing. She was always going to be
the one that survived. It wasn't that. There
wasn't a moment where she turned on the new Rani,
though. We didn't get that. It was just she was
saving herself after the other one had died.
Yeah. She sort of very quickly grabbed the time
ring and went, didn't she? Yeah. I wonder if,
again, just speculation, but I wonder if there
could have been an opportunity where she made
a choice where the new Rani was... being pulled
away or was in danger and she has a choice of
to go for the time ring or to save her. Yeah.
Again, I wonder if more was meant to be made
of that bit with Omega and it ended up getting
cut because we had to deal with other things
later on. Because it all seemed to happen very
quickly and sort of was very functional from
a plot point of view. I haven't talked about
Omega much, but I think it felt like a rerun
of Sutec. You take that classic character, but
turn them into something where you're just using
your CGI budget, which is kind of visually impressive,
and it's a scary moment, but it didn't... Yeah,
I feel like at that point, why not just create
a new monster or threat from the Underverse?
Maybe you're expecting Omega, and then this...
this different thing emerges. And it's kind of
doubly weird because they've done the Rani in
quite an authentic, classic way that's echoing
Kate O'Mara. And then they've done this odd take
on Omega. I'm very, very glad that Anita Dobson's
Rani got away. But it is another thing. thing
left hanging like the rani should always be out
there like the master should always be out there
or at least the possibility of the master always
being out there should be a thing but but you
know at least we sort of we dealt with omega
like he's still back locked in his tomb under
dimension whatever it is underverse which is
that the antimatter universe it was not clear
but like the the new rani isn't necessarily dead
though it could be a Boba Fett situation where
she is still alive. I'm seeing a whole spin -off
series that the Rani's barely in. But yeah, it's...
I'm not sure we needed Omega for that. Even if
you're bringing back a villain from the past...
But it could have been the Beast from Impossible
Planet and Satan Pit. Why didn't we do that?
That would have been better. That would have
made more sense. Okay, it doesn't make sense
that the Rani's trying to dig out the Beast,
but in terms of villain that it could have been,
that would have been a better option. Or she's
looking for Omega and she gets the Beast by accident,
like something she's not expecting. Yeah. I mean,
like with Sutec, at least there was like that
link to the god of death and he's changing the
way he's operating, but there's some sort of
thread that's following through. But yeah, I
feel like with Omega, there wasn't even that
thread. I know there's that line. What's the
line in the classic series about saying, you
know, he should have been a god? Yeah. I suppose
there's that. That's the connection. I worshipped
you as a hero. No, I shouldn't have been a hero.
I should have been a god, that kind of thing.
So it's a bit tenuous, though. Yeah, definitely.
But I want more Rani. I want more Anita Dobson's
Rani. I want her to get to be the evil one. Did
you prefer her to Archie Punjabi? Because Archie
Punjabi's one was much more in the... vein of
Kate O'Mara. I feel like Mrs. Flood, again, this
might be a retrospective thing, but I'm not convinced
that she was always meant to be the Rani. I wonder
if that was a retrospective thing that came in
this year. Yeah, some of her dialogue in the
finale of Series 1 isn't particularly Rani -ish.
Yeah. Could have been referring to Omega, but
I'm not convinced. No, we'll... We'll sort of
park that one as we'll see. But I think Archie
Punjabi was, like you say, she was the Kate O'Mara
Rani. She was proper Rani and absolutely fantastic.
Did it really, really well. But I think the Anita
Dobson Rani is the one that's perhaps got more
interesting stories to tell moving forward, that
kind of thing. And I suppose like most of the
time we've seen her in previous episodes, she's
been playing a role or hiding. So maybe we haven't
seen her being herself yet at all because we've
seen her playing a role and then like suddenly
being subservient to this new Raleigh. So what's
she like when she is actually just being herself?
Yeah, it'll be interesting. And I hope we get
that. I really do hope we get that. Because there's...
Well, at the very least, we know there's another
Time Lord out there now. Even if it's just one,
and even if it's the Rani, there's another Time
Lord out there now, and that makes things more
interesting. It's always more interesting when
he's not quite the last of the Time Lords. Well,
there's the Master's Tooth as well. Sorry, the
Toymaker's Tooth with the Master in it. There
is another on the list of unresolved things.
We're going to have to do an episode about unresolved
things sometime. We could do big finish pitches
for how big finish would wrap up each of these
unresolved threads. Yes, tying off loose ends.
Okay, well, we're sort of close to running out
of time on this one. there is sort of one thing
that we should go into before we finish really,
which is, so this has been a series. The series
is done. We've had our eight episodes. What are
your overall thoughts on the series? Can you
pick a favourite episode? And are we walking
away generally calling this one a winner, even
if the ending was a little bit on the shaky side?
I think it's very similar to series one in that
because I... wasn't as sold on the ending it
sort of artificially brings down the impression
of the whole season but it's exactly the same
thing of like the middle had some really strong
inventive stuff i think like episodes two through
two i'm trying to remember which was which yeah
i think two through to six i really really enjoyed
um so five out of seven episodes and Robot Revolution
was okay as well, that's a pretty good hit rate.
Yeah, I'll take a series where sort of three
quarters of it are pretty damn strong. Yeah,
do you think we should just abandon the concept
of big overblown finales with that? Especially
with this, you've mentioned the episode count
and how that restricts. like what you can do
and how much you can develop characters, maybe
it would help to not feel that obligation to
take up a quarter of your episode count with
a finale or just do like a more low -key single
episode finale. I'm going to say no because A,
I thought The Legend of Ruby Sunday was absolutely
fantastic and you'd never have had that as an
episode on its own. It had to be building up
to something to work. And B, the giggle. I still
think the giggle's brilliant. Yeah, I really
like the giggle. Okay, it's episode three, but
it's still a big RTD finale. Yeah. Yeah, I really
like the giggle. I still feel like, I think we
said this with the series one retrospective,
I think those three tenant specials feel like
so much... more, like, nicely structured and
coherent to me than, like, the sort of ups and
downs of series one and two, or season one and
two. But I think the main thing that helps those
was the fact that the two leads were already
established. We've known and loved the Doctor,
well, okay, the 10th Doctor, 14th Doctor, David
Tennant's Doctor, and Donna. We've known and
loved them for 15 years, more than 15 years.
So, It was really easy to do those three episodes
because you didn't have to make your audience
care about those characters because that work
had already been done in a 13 -episode series
plus a load of specials. I guess that's a factor,
but there was... It's strange, though, because
we talked about the three 60th anniversary specials
as almost being like a speed run of a... old
13 episode series with like you know your light
lighter opening the weird one in the middle and
then the big finale but for some reason that
structure really worked as a trilogy and for
these two eight episode seasons that we've had
something has just felt off to me about trying
to squeeze the 13 episode structure into eight
episodes and yeah Maybe this would have all worked
better if it was just approached as a 16 -episode
series with a mid -season break and a cliffhanger.
Because these two seasons went out quite close
together, relatively compared to some of the
gaps we've had in the past. We weren't waiting
a long time between season one and season two.
Also, weren't they more or less recorded together?
close together at least yeah like yeah um yeah
yeah so there was the potential to do that and
maybe you know they didn't want to they just
wanted to to have like a really definitive line
under series one to like generate buzz and impact
but yeah i think using a 16 episode run to tell
her to tell one big story might work better Yeah,
and I think moving forward that could well be
the way to do it. In terms of story, character
development and so on, treat every two series
as one series has been treated in the past. Or
Flux as well. I think Flux had issues with how
it ended, but as a structure for Doctor Who,
I think it worked really well. Just tell one
really tightly connected story week to week.
When you think about it, Dan had more or less
the same number of episodes as Belinda, and we
got to know him, or at least it felt like we
got to know him a hell of a lot better. Yeah.
So, yeah. And Russell T. Davis is really good
at quite deftly and concisely giving you a sense
of who characters are. So he can do it. It's
just, again, maybe just... the way that this
character came about maybe it made it more difficult
this time but like this there's so many examples
in in the 2005 series of like moments with rose
and her mum and um and even the little supporting
characters you get in in some of those early
stories again just like a few lines or a little
moment is used to tell you something quite fundamental
about them yeah absolutely It'll always come
back to that line about Colsthor from Jackie
Tyler, won't it? You know, a bit clinical. That's
brilliant, that. Fantastic line. Gives you so
much about that character, and I love it. And
stuff like that has been missing, it feels like.
Yeah. Anyway, that's probably a good point to
leave it, but overall, I'm calling it a good
series. I think the finale has left me feeling
a tiny bit... underwhelmed I think that's more
of a circumstances that the finale ended up being
made under than anything else thing but you know
there's an awful lot there to enjoy and I'm probably
doing that typical Doctor Who fan thing of just
focusing on the bits I wasn't so keen on because
there were bits of it that I absolutely loved
I'd be surprised if we have a 17 year hiatus
but so I'm pretty sure it won't be as long as
that With any luck, we'll see Doctor Who within
the next 15 years. Well, there was that line
in an interview about kids watching Newsround
today will be the ones who bring it back in the
future. So maybe it will be around then. But
I hope it's not partly because of, I don't know
if that ending on Billy Piper is as nice a full
stop as... 1989's moment in survival was which
wasn't intended to be the final story but the
final speech is tacked on but I think it works
amazingly and the story as well is kind of like
a thematic callback to going back to the Daleks
and ideas about violence and whether it's right
or not and Yeah, it just seemed like a really
nice summing up of who the Doctor is and what
the show is. I think that's it. Instead of sort
of thematically revisiting Rose, we've literally
revisited Rose. And if it does end up being the
way this era's wrapped up, then so be it, I guess.
Oh, and one thing we didn't talk about, speaking
of violence, yeah, we didn't even get into the
whole thing about the image of the Doctor. saving
the day by just shooting a giant gun. Yeah. Yeah.
I think, again, that might be part of the abandoned
arc stuff. It's something the Doctor totally
doesn't do until he does. Yeah, which is okay
when it's kind of by exception, but for it to
be such a fundamental big moment in the series
finale and his final story, maybe it wasn't intended
to be that. That didn't feel right to me that
you have that moment. And then you have Ruby
counterpointing it by saving the day with compassion
at the same time. Yeah, I definitely get the
impression we were maybe heading into a the daughter's
getting a bit too trigger -happy era. Yeah, exactly.
If things had continued as planned. Oh, well,
we don't know what's going to come next. Hopefully
there will be some indication sometime soon.
I sincerely hope so, because I will always want
there to be more Doctor Who. There's still loads
of new Doctor Who content for us to enjoy, though.
There's Big Finish, there's books, there's all
sorts going on. So I guess it's just a case of
sit back, wait and see. And meanwhile, this week
we've had a pretty good fourth Doctor Adventures
set come out. Doctor Who will carry on forever,
maybe just not on telly. Yeah. So, yeah, we'll
leave it there for this week anyway. But it's
been absolutely fantastic talking about not just
this episode, but this whole series with the
Mansour kind of. Yeah. I found that, you know,
doing week by week has actually proved to be
a pretty successful experiment. And I hope we
get to do it again sometime soon. Yeah, absolutely.
So thank you for joining me on it. Yeah, no worries.
We'll be back for more Spodcasting next week.
Goodbye now.