WEBVTT 00:00:00.110 --> 00:00:03.089 You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:07.040 Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality. 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:09.980 I'm Johnston and with me again this week I have 00:01:09.980 --> 00:01:15.140 Mansour. Hello. Hello. And we've done it. We've 00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:16.799 done the whole season. This is it. We're going 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:18.920 to talk about the reality war, the season finale. 00:01:18.980 --> 00:01:21.879 So we have covered, for the first time, it's 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:23.840 the first time Spodcast has done this, we have 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:28.640 covered the entire series on a week by week basis 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:32.819 as released. So that's quite good. I feel like 00:01:32.819 --> 00:01:34.980 it's an achievement and I'm actually quite surprised 00:01:34.980 --> 00:01:38.379 it's taken us three series of spodcasts to do 00:01:38.379 --> 00:01:40.480 this, but I've enjoyed doing it. I've enjoyed 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:43.840 going over this series and it's sort of kept 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:45.920 me more engaged with this series than I think 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:49.859 I was with last year's. Last year, Connor and 00:01:49.859 --> 00:01:52.239 I did sort of two episodes. So we did the first 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:54.280 half in one episode and the second half in the 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:58.500 next and we didn't quite get to do the whole... 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:01.239 speculation thing that we've done here and that 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.239 kind of thing so it's been quite enjoyable so 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:08.900 we'll dive straight in the reality war a lot 00:02:08.900 --> 00:02:13.039 goes on in this and the one thing I've seen a 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:15.500 lot of people say is it's nothing like what they 00:02:15.500 --> 00:02:19.180 were expecting and I think I'm I'm on that list 00:02:19.180 --> 00:02:22.719 of people I've spoken over the last few weeks 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:25.599 about Things we're expecting to see, expecting 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:27.840 to happen, how's everything going to be squeezed 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:29.759 into one episode, all of this kind of thing. 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:34.180 And actually the reality war kind of got things 00:02:34.180 --> 00:02:37.240 over and done with as quickly as it could and 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:39.680 then just took a bit of time to breathe. It gave 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:43.860 us a chance to say goodbye to Belinda and say 00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:47.719 goodbye to this doctor because we got something 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.300 that I've been saying I'd like to see ever since 00:02:50.300 --> 00:02:54.030 2005, which is a... more or less, surprise regeneration. 00:02:54.909 --> 00:02:57.310 You know, it wasn't announced. We didn't know 00:02:57.310 --> 00:02:59.509 that somebody was going to appear, somebody else 00:02:59.509 --> 00:03:01.490 was going to appear at the end of the episode 00:03:01.490 --> 00:03:07.370 as maybe the new Doctor. It just kind of happened. 00:03:07.610 --> 00:03:11.449 And I really did like that. I really, really 00:03:11.449 --> 00:03:13.729 like the way this was handled because it's always 00:03:13.729 --> 00:03:17.610 a big sort of news story when we get a regeneration. 00:03:17.770 --> 00:03:20.520 You know, it's... The actor announces they're 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:22.840 leaving. We go through this whole process of 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.960 who's going to be the next doctor. There's all 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:28.560 the random guesses from the bookies. All the 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:32.300 same names get sort of thrown up and thrown about. 00:03:32.620 --> 00:03:35.840 And the bookies kind of settle on somebody a 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:38.560 few days before and they are inevitably right. 00:03:39.099 --> 00:03:42.759 And that seems to have happened, I think, ever 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:50.289 since Matt Smith was announced. to have that 00:03:50.289 --> 00:03:53.009 surprise here. So I'm kind of jumping towards 00:03:53.009 --> 00:03:55.270 the end of the episode because, you know, the 00:03:55.270 --> 00:03:57.389 big talking point is the fact it was a regeneration 00:03:57.389 --> 00:04:02.189 story. I get the impression that regeneration 00:04:02.189 --> 00:04:05.590 story is maybe not what it started life as. I 00:04:05.590 --> 00:04:08.189 think we know there were some reshoots. We know 00:04:08.189 --> 00:04:12.330 that maybe the ending to this episode wasn't 00:04:12.330 --> 00:04:15.180 the one as originally planned. There do seem 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:17.180 to be some things that have kind of just been 00:04:17.180 --> 00:04:21.060 left. Like, for example, Susan never made the 00:04:21.060 --> 00:04:24.000 appearance that we were all expecting and speculating 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.740 about. And I even last week said, I think we 00:04:26.740 --> 00:04:28.379 need to give a good chunk of the episode over 00:04:28.379 --> 00:04:31.279 to Susan returning. And it just didn't happen. 00:04:31.459 --> 00:04:33.839 And I hope that that is something that's picked 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:37.220 up. I really do hope that, you know, moving forward, 00:04:37.259 --> 00:04:41.120 we do get something with Susan because it seems 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:43.970 strange to have Caroline Ford in to do. what 00:04:43.970 --> 00:04:49.009 she did in Interstellar Song Contest, and then 00:04:49.009 --> 00:04:51.870 she popped up a tiny little bit in Wishworld, 00:04:52.029 --> 00:04:55.589 and then obviously the reality war had to go 00:04:55.589 --> 00:04:58.050 in a totally different direction because at some 00:04:58.050 --> 00:05:02.490 point we've realised that we need a new Doctor. 00:05:02.610 --> 00:05:07.470 We need it to be a regeneration story. Overall, 00:05:07.870 --> 00:05:12.439 considering... how packed it was, I thought it 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:14.600 was a pretty good episode. I think on the whole, 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:16.860 it was a decent episode. I think there are things 00:05:16.860 --> 00:05:19.399 within that episode that I'm not too keen on 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:25.220 and the sort of rushed, strange last 15 minutes 00:05:25.220 --> 00:05:27.100 that sort of felt disconnected from everything 00:05:27.100 --> 00:05:30.339 else. And like I say, I suspect when the original 00:05:30.339 --> 00:05:33.740 plan felt a bit jarring and it's a real shame 00:05:33.740 --> 00:05:36.220 to see Shooty go. He's been a fantastic doctor. 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:39.519 I could talk for hours about that, but Ultimately, 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.480 the episode as a whole, for the most part, did 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:47.399 what I wanted it to. Could have done something 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:49.740 more interesting with Omega, because Omega's 00:05:49.740 --> 00:05:52.519 a far more interesting character than the way 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:54.360 he was portrayed in this, which was basically 00:05:54.360 --> 00:06:00.860 a big CGI clawing face. But I think that's kind 00:06:00.860 --> 00:06:03.399 of made up for by the fact that we've... We've 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:06.399 had some really good Rani stuff. I like both 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:08.579 the incarnations of the Rani and I liked them 00:06:08.579 --> 00:06:12.060 even more in this episode than I did in Wishworld. 00:06:12.139 --> 00:06:15.560 It was good to see them have that confrontation 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:20.560 with the Doctor. We definitely got a good look 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:25.220 into the Rani's character and how she just sees 00:06:25.220 --> 00:06:28.339 the universe as one big experiment and morals 00:06:28.339 --> 00:06:56.230 don't matter and all that kind of thing. I... 00:06:56.230 --> 00:07:02.560 It was sort of... like what I was expecting I 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:06.660 think because I went into it with the knowledge 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:11.379 of rumours about behind the scenes issues and 00:07:11.379 --> 00:07:18.839 like late in the day reshoots and maybe that 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:20.839 sort of primes you to look out for these things 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:24.680 but I can't think of off the top of my head another 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:32.769 example of any tv doctor who story where uh like 00:07:32.769 --> 00:07:36.410 that seems like the effects of that seem so obvious 00:07:36.410 --> 00:07:39.110 and there's sort of there's two layers to it 00:07:39.110 --> 00:07:44.269 because and this is speculation but it seems 00:07:44.269 --> 00:07:49.730 to me that uh at the point at which um poppy 00:07:49.730 --> 00:07:52.930 just disappears around there like everything 00:07:52.930 --> 00:07:57.500 after that seems to have been swapped in or added 00:07:57.500 --> 00:08:00.420 in quite late in the day because we saw publicity 00:08:00.420 --> 00:08:03.860 stills for scenes that are not in the finished 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:07.560 episode but then there's another layer before 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:11.819 that which is I think one of my issues with the 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:16.699 whole season looking back is the speculation 00:08:16.699 --> 00:08:21.839 again not confirmed at all that Belinda was swapped 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:26.579 in for Ruby in season two And having seen this 00:08:26.579 --> 00:08:30.699 last episode, that seems more and more likely 00:08:30.699 --> 00:08:35.559 to me. I'll get into specifics about the ending 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:40.559 and specific moments, but Ruby is the one who 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:43.440 has all the big hero moments in this episode, 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:48.379 and Belinda is literally shut away in a box for 00:08:48.379 --> 00:08:51.539 part of it, and for a really crucial part of 00:08:51.539 --> 00:08:56.690 it. Yeah. And it makes me a bit disappointed 00:08:56.690 --> 00:09:00.970 that we didn't get more with her character over 00:09:00.970 --> 00:09:09.149 this whole season. Having said that, with both 00:09:09.149 --> 00:09:13.350 of those two big potential adjustments that they 00:09:13.350 --> 00:09:16.190 had to make, it does a reasonable job. There 00:09:16.190 --> 00:09:19.029 are things I liked about it, like some really 00:09:19.029 --> 00:09:23.019 good visuals. Like you said, the Rani. Both versions 00:09:23.019 --> 00:09:32.440 of the Rani were very good. And yeah, there were 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:35.779 good moments. Oh, actually, I did like Conrad's 00:09:35.779 --> 00:09:41.419 story and how that was wrapped up. But yeah, 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:42.940 when we get into the specifics of that, I thought 00:09:42.940 --> 00:09:45.179 there were some potentially missed opportunities 00:09:45.179 --> 00:09:48.879 there as well to wrap up some other threads relating 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.240 to the Doctor. Yeah, there was stuff to like, 00:09:52.379 --> 00:09:56.399 but maybe I was primed to look out for it. But 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.860 the joins and the adjustments behind the scenes 00:09:59.860 --> 00:10:03.720 just seemed really, really obvious to me with 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:08.679 this one. Yeah, you do sort of have to ask, is 00:10:08.679 --> 00:10:14.659 this the story from the new Who era with the 00:10:14.659 --> 00:10:20.110 most sort of obvious? behind the scenes struggles 00:10:20.110 --> 00:10:23.710 like I know we've had episodes that have had 00:10:23.710 --> 00:10:26.230 a pretty difficult recording and there's been 00:10:26.230 --> 00:10:28.129 little errors here and there and that kind of 00:10:28.129 --> 00:10:30.909 thing but is this the one where it shows the 00:10:30.909 --> 00:10:34.049 most but then again is that just because it's 00:10:34.049 --> 00:10:36.590 actually a big regeneration story and was never 00:10:36.590 --> 00:10:40.490 meant to be yeah that's one of the biggest things 00:10:40.490 --> 00:10:47.330 because I feel like this season was written as 00:10:47.850 --> 00:10:52.129 the beginnings of the arc for this doctor all 00:10:52.129 --> 00:10:56.309 that stuff that was like so out of character 00:10:56.309 --> 00:10:59.070 with that moment of torturing kid in interstellar 00:10:59.070 --> 00:11:04.649 song contest that's just been left whereas if 00:11:04.649 --> 00:11:08.990 this was like you know his like his middle season 00:11:08.990 --> 00:11:13.230 or second out of four seasons I can see how there 00:11:13.230 --> 00:11:16.120 would be an arc about him going further down 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:18.779 that road and maybe the companion pulling him 00:11:18.779 --> 00:11:22.360 back or Susan coming in and being a bigger part 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:25.740 of the story and pulling him back or like a moment 00:11:25.740 --> 00:11:27.960 of hubris where he just goes too far and that 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:30.980 kind of like the end of time leads to the regeneration 00:11:30.980 --> 00:11:35.320 but it really really feels like that story was 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.500 starting to be told and and then it was just 00:11:39.500 --> 00:11:46.389 cut short in and Yeah, and right in the middle, 00:11:46.450 --> 00:11:54.169 basically. Yeah, I mean, every, well, not every 00:11:54.169 --> 00:11:56.610 other Doctor we've had, but the majority of new 00:11:56.610 --> 00:12:01.690 Who Doctors have done three seasons. And actually, 00:12:01.750 --> 00:12:04.470 I don't think any of them have been properly 00:12:04.470 --> 00:12:07.210 set up for a three -season arc. I don't think 00:12:07.210 --> 00:12:09.710 any of them, you know, okay, Jodie Whittaker's 00:12:09.710 --> 00:12:12.769 arc sort of started to get going in her second 00:12:12.769 --> 00:12:16.759 season. never quite fully came to fruition because 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:19.679 of covid and flux being cut down as a result 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.759 and you know made under restrictions all this 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:27.299 kind of thing but yeah you're right it feels 00:12:27.299 --> 00:12:29.759 as though we were starting to figure out what 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:31.620 we were doing with this doctor where he was going 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:34.259 to go and i do think that one more season we'd 00:12:34.259 --> 00:12:37.120 have we'd have probably seen it through we'd 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.940 have got everything that we yeah could have been 00:12:39.940 --> 00:12:42.919 three three three year three -year story that's 00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:45.340 what it felt like to me but like i i think like 00:12:45.340 --> 00:12:48.320 looking back at the post 2005 doctors i think 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:55.620 nine ten twelve and then also like the kind of 00:12:55.620 --> 00:13:00.179 um mayfly ones like um the war doctor and the 00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:06.000 14th i think all of those have got a coherent 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.820 compelling character arc um it's not that i don't 00:13:09.820 --> 00:13:13.960 like the other doctors but i think 11, definitely 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:17.799 13 with the COVID disruption and then now 15 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:21.940 with this behind the scenes pivot potentially. 00:13:23.500 --> 00:13:26.860 I don't think they were as well served with kind 00:13:26.860 --> 00:13:29.419 of telling a coherent story over their eras. 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:32.320 And that's not essential because like classic 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:34.940 Doctors didn't always have that or they had it 00:13:34.940 --> 00:13:38.059 in very subtle ways. Like, you know, Tom Baker 00:13:38.059 --> 00:13:41.840 just kind of changed. like the sort of tone and 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:44.899 performance, there wasn't any great sort of explicit 00:13:44.899 --> 00:13:49.299 arc or story going across the whole thing. But 00:13:49.299 --> 00:13:51.360 I think the thing that makes it stick out with 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:55.860 the 15th is that they were making steps, like 00:13:55.860 --> 00:13:58.940 quite deliberate steps to start that story and 00:13:58.940 --> 00:14:03.720 then it got stopped short. Which is definitely 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:09.440 a shame. Yeah. Yeah. It's... Yeah, I can't help 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:11.720 but think that this era is always going to feel 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:18.360 a bit incomplete as a result. Like, we've definitely 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:24.559 got a Doctor gone too soon. And funnily enough, 00:14:24.580 --> 00:14:28.500 it feels like we don't know him as well as we 00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:32.759 knew the Ninth Doctor when he left in Parting 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:35.340 of the Ways. That's really interesting because 00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:39.659 we know now quite... christopher has talked about 00:14:39.659 --> 00:14:42.379 it quite openly that there was a lot of tension 00:14:42.379 --> 00:14:45.200 and issues behind the scenes with that season 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:48.919 yet you watch that back and it it looks like 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:52.039 it was always written to be this like really 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:57.399 compelling uh one season arc um for the doctor 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:03.360 yeah uh yeah so it's a shame that they couldn't 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.679 adjust and bring things together in the same 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.379 way this time round. Yeah, the ninth Doctor's 00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:13.700 Era was obviously cut off early, but they knew 00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:17.159 it was happening and the whole season kind of 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.600 built towards it. Yeah. Whereas this really does 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:23.399 feel like someone's gone, oh, crap, we need to 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:25.440 do regeneration now, quick, tack it on the end. 00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:31.639 Which is such a shame. I would love to know what 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:35.940 happened originally. And we know that... We know 00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:38.700 it exists. There must have been a more or less 00:15:38.700 --> 00:15:44.059 complete version of this episode as it would 00:15:44.059 --> 00:15:47.940 have, should have been before they had to turn 00:15:47.940 --> 00:15:51.139 it into a regeneration story. And it seems like 00:15:51.139 --> 00:15:56.639 very late in the day because I think it was Disney 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.240 Plus in Germany or the fact that production skills 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.740 stills from an unused ending are out there in 00:16:03.740 --> 00:16:07.169 the public. That to me says that this was like 00:16:07.169 --> 00:16:11.029 really down to the wire in terms of swapping 00:16:11.029 --> 00:16:17.509 things out. Yeah. Oh, well, all we can do is 00:16:17.509 --> 00:16:21.350 wait. One day we'll find out more. It's now my 00:16:21.350 --> 00:16:23.950 sort of second most I want to know what was going 00:16:23.950 --> 00:16:30.250 on originally after Rogue One. I still want to 00:16:30.250 --> 00:16:32.169 see the original version of Rogue One before 00:16:32.169 --> 00:16:34.759 other issues happen there. Different reasons, 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:39.919 of course. But, yeah, I'm very curious to know 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:42.740 what was actually meant to happen in this episode. 00:16:43.659 --> 00:16:47.000 You know, it's safe to assume that Susan was 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:50.200 meant to be part of it, I think. I've seen, again, 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:53.580 like nothing confirmed, but I've heard a lot 00:16:53.580 --> 00:16:57.480 of YouTubers and reviewers repeating rumours 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.600 about there was this party at the end. That's 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.819 what we see in the production stills. Poppy was 00:17:04.819 --> 00:17:08.680 going to have disappeared. But then you see everyone 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.180 celebrating and Susan standing off to the side 00:17:11.180 --> 00:17:14.819 with Poppy. Now, some versions I've heard it's 00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:17.900 just Susan and other versions it's Susan with 00:17:17.900 --> 00:17:23.339 Poppy. And yeah, it's sort of setting up her 00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:29.579 coming back in in the following season. So, yeah. 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:31.799 And there was that behind the scenes interview 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:35.529 with Caroline Ford. where either she's just just 00:17:35.529 --> 00:17:39.170 has a very doctor who like wardrobe at home or 00:17:39.170 --> 00:17:41.650 she was in costume for different scenes that 00:17:41.650 --> 00:17:48.349 we didn't see in interstellar yes so yeah i'm 00:17:48.349 --> 00:17:51.730 pretty sure she filmed something else and there 00:17:51.730 --> 00:17:56.549 was um uh belinda's dad uh whose agency posted 00:17:56.549 --> 00:18:00.930 stuff on online saying you know our clients in 00:18:00.930 --> 00:18:04.339 in doctor who and then he was Nowhere to be seen 00:18:04.339 --> 00:18:10.099 in this episode. Scenes were cut. Yeah. I'm guessing 00:18:10.099 --> 00:18:16.319 he was at the party that doesn't exist now. Yeah. 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:20.180 Maybe one day we'll find out. I hope we do. It 00:18:20.180 --> 00:18:25.779 sounds like a sort of fantastic, curious episode 00:18:25.779 --> 00:18:29.180 that never happened. Well, I wonder, it's not 00:18:29.180 --> 00:18:32.380 beyond possibility for the original script to 00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:37.880 be uploaded because it might be this is just 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:41.500 a thing of there was no major falling out between 00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:45.539 individuals. It was just shooting up. I wanted 00:18:45.539 --> 00:18:47.980 to progress with his career and he didn't want 00:18:47.980 --> 00:18:51.920 to hold on indefinitely for Disney to possibly 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.859 or possibly not renew. If that's the case and 00:18:54.859 --> 00:18:57.640 it all ended amicably, then maybe we will see 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.740 the original shooting scripts uploaded in the 00:19:00.740 --> 00:19:04.599 next few months. It'd be very interesting if 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.019 there were. Fingers crossed. It's something I'd 00:19:08.019 --> 00:19:10.059 certainly like to have a look at and talk about 00:19:10.059 --> 00:19:15.980 in the future. Or maybe the book will cover the 00:19:15.980 --> 00:19:20.640 other timeline. The Writer's Tale 2. Oh yeah, 00:19:20.779 --> 00:19:23.660 that. But I was thinking of The Target. style 00:19:23.660 --> 00:19:28.099 novelization oh of course yes all right yes also 00:19:28.099 --> 00:19:33.880 a possibility um so of course another i think 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.839 victim of this big cut reshoot change whatever 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:44.980 is belinda's departure um yeah like you know 00:19:44.980 --> 00:19:47.160 i get the impression that maybe that wasn't as 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:51.549 originally planned and You know, her timeline 00:19:51.549 --> 00:19:56.009 was entirely changed as a result of the episode. 00:19:56.250 --> 00:20:00.089 And it was, I mean, it was a nice way to write 00:20:00.089 --> 00:20:02.049 a Doctor Who companion out. You know, it worked. 00:20:02.150 --> 00:20:04.130 It was a very Doctor Who -y way for a character 00:20:04.130 --> 00:20:09.430 to go. But at the same time, A, it's a real shame 00:20:09.430 --> 00:20:12.869 for this character to go. B, I'm very, very annoyed 00:20:12.869 --> 00:20:15.589 that she spent a chunk of her last episode literally 00:20:15.589 --> 00:20:18.910 shut up in a box. All for no reason as well, 00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:25.769 I'll hastily add. And the thing I'm always going 00:20:25.769 --> 00:20:27.710 to say about Belinda is I wish we'd got more. 00:20:28.609 --> 00:20:33.269 I really do. And I absolutely loved sort of that 00:20:33.269 --> 00:20:36.730 scene in the TARDIS with the Doctor, Belinda 00:20:36.730 --> 00:20:40.789 and Ruby. And it just made me think, God, we 00:20:40.789 --> 00:20:42.529 could have had a series of that. That would have 00:20:42.529 --> 00:20:45.430 been amazing. That would have been absolutely 00:20:45.430 --> 00:20:47.450 fantastic if we'd have had the three of them 00:20:47.450 --> 00:20:51.390 properly travelling together. Yeah, and maybe 00:20:51.390 --> 00:20:54.089 if there was going to be a season three with 00:20:54.089 --> 00:20:55.990 this Doctor, that would have been the way to 00:20:55.990 --> 00:21:00.329 go to actually do Belinda justice in an additional 00:21:00.329 --> 00:21:03.970 season. I didn't like the way she was used here 00:21:03.970 --> 00:21:07.329 at all. Like the stuff you mentioned about she's 00:21:07.329 --> 00:21:10.609 put in a box, but then when she comes out of 00:21:10.609 --> 00:21:16.950 the box, it's a... It's played as an unambiguously 00:21:16.950 --> 00:21:22.630 happy ending. If I'm understanding it right, 00:21:22.730 --> 00:21:27.369 the universe has shifted and where she didn't 00:21:27.369 --> 00:21:30.630 have a child before, she now has a child who 00:21:30.630 --> 00:21:34.289 happens to look exactly like Poppy, the space 00:21:34.289 --> 00:21:37.829 baby. Although I've seen different interpretations 00:21:37.829 --> 00:21:41.089 of it saying that she did always have a baby 00:21:41.089 --> 00:21:44.000 called Poppy. Don't understand that at all because 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:49.119 it is the Wishworld that created Poppy in the 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:53.019 first place, isn't it? That's where she came 00:21:53.019 --> 00:21:58.640 from. The version of Poppy that we... Well, there's 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:01.039 two versions of Poppy we see, aren't there? Or 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.819 three. There's the original Space Babies one. 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:07.720 There's the Wishworld version who's half Time 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:11.990 Lord. And then there's the post... shifted universe 00:22:11.990 --> 00:22:18.869 version who's 100 % human and yeah as far as 00:22:18.869 --> 00:22:22.849 I can understand it Belinda when we saw her in 00:22:22.849 --> 00:22:26.269 the robot revolution did not have a child in 00:22:26.269 --> 00:22:33.069 that version of the universe so no so if that's 00:22:33.069 --> 00:22:38.609 the case I just find it really I just find it 00:22:38.609 --> 00:22:40.589 a bit weird that the Doctor's made that decision. 00:22:40.789 --> 00:22:45.529 This whole era started with the 14th Doctor and 00:22:45.529 --> 00:22:51.190 Donna, and it wasn't the sole reason they got 00:22:51.190 --> 00:22:58.410 those two very popular actors back into Doctor 00:22:58.410 --> 00:23:02.710 Who, but one of the reasons for bringing Donna 00:23:02.710 --> 00:23:05.049 back as a character was to fix some of the issues 00:23:05.049 --> 00:23:08.099 with her exit and... You know, there's stuff 00:23:08.099 --> 00:23:10.680 about her not choosing what the Doctor did to 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:14.519 her in the last moments of Journey's End. And 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:16.500 it just seems really weird to me that you then 00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:21.759 end this new era with the Doctor choosing to 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:25.339 change the companion's life and make her a mother 00:23:25.339 --> 00:23:28.380 when she didn't choose that. And I know it's 00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:32.539 complicated because wish well Belinda would have 00:23:32.539 --> 00:23:36.609 chosen that. But I don't. There's nothing to 00:23:36.609 --> 00:23:39.089 say that the original Robot Revolution version 00:23:39.089 --> 00:23:45.710 of Belinda would have chosen this life. No. Yeah, 00:23:45.750 --> 00:23:50.829 that just felt really weird to me. And she has 00:23:50.829 --> 00:23:53.369 that moment at the end of Robot Revolution where 00:23:53.369 --> 00:23:56.529 she has that really good moment of setting boundaries 00:23:56.529 --> 00:23:59.450 and saying, you know, don't scan me without my 00:23:59.450 --> 00:24:02.390 consent. And I think there's a moment in this 00:24:02.390 --> 00:24:05.170 episode where the Doctor just scans Poppy without... 00:24:05.289 --> 00:24:09.049 without asking and it just seems to like throw 00:24:09.049 --> 00:24:11.789 out all of that really interesting stuff about 00:24:11.789 --> 00:24:14.970 companion who you know is setting boundaries 00:24:14.970 --> 00:24:19.049 and making choices of her own and and instead 00:24:19.049 --> 00:24:21.569 the doctor's kind of done what conrad was doing 00:24:21.569 --> 00:24:24.029 in a different way and just like chosen for her 00:24:24.029 --> 00:24:27.430 and said oh no your happy ending is being a mother 00:24:27.430 --> 00:24:33.640 which you know might be a really happy life for 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:39.619 her but it's not what she chose yeah it's it's 00:24:39.619 --> 00:24:44.180 definitely odd and you know when when consent 00:24:44.180 --> 00:24:48.799 is set up as being something so important to 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:55.039 this character exactly if you didn't bring it 00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:00.799 up you could maybe fudge it but it's yeah it's 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.819 it's literally part of how this character is 00:25:03.819 --> 00:25:10.660 established. Yeah. Yeah, I really do think we've 00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:14.559 just not got the character we should have had 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:18.400 out of Belinda. And I think it's a shame that 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:23.359 her exit did sort of get wrapped up in everything 00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:25.980 else that had to be done in this episode because 00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:29.359 she started off so well. Like the first three 00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:32.299 episodes, she is such a fan. fantastic character, 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:36.599 a fantastic companion. And ever since then, we've 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:39.200 had stories that she's barely in, that she's 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:44.099 not an important part of, or as you have sort 00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:47.220 of speculated and kind of convinced me of, really, 00:25:47.380 --> 00:25:51.400 she was just a replacement last minute for Ruby. 00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:55.460 Yeah, it's a real shame because I really wish 00:25:55.460 --> 00:25:58.700 we'd have got more out of Belinda because I... 00:25:59.210 --> 00:26:01.990 the setup was so good. There was so much promise 00:26:01.990 --> 00:26:04.309 there. We really were on for a great companion 00:26:04.309 --> 00:26:07.829 in those first few episodes. And all of it just 00:26:07.829 --> 00:26:10.849 seemed to fall by the wayside as the series went 00:26:10.849 --> 00:26:14.690 on. Well, like one or the other, like if you're 00:26:14.690 --> 00:26:18.069 going to bring her in, then rework it. And I'm 00:26:18.069 --> 00:26:19.730 saying this as though it's easier and understand 00:26:19.730 --> 00:26:21.990 like, you know, they might've been working around 00:26:21.990 --> 00:26:25.609 a lot of, a load of different budgetary and time 00:26:25.609 --> 00:26:30.000 constraints to make this happen. Um, But ideally, 00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:32.900 if you're going to make that swap, then rework 00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:37.019 the season so that it tells a better story for 00:26:37.019 --> 00:26:40.460 her. Or, you know, it would have been, and again, 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:43.799 we don't know why it might have happened, but 00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:45.160 there might have been a better version of season 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:48.240 two where Ruby did stick around. Because you 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.500 have that line in Space Babies that seems to 00:26:51.500 --> 00:26:54.839 directly set up Wishworld, where the Doctor says 00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:57.880 to Poppy, you know... We're not your parents, 00:26:57.980 --> 00:27:00.799 but I wish we were. And he's talking about him 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:07.200 and Ruby. So that's not addressed at all. Whereas 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.880 I think if Ruby was still the main companion 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.160 in season two, you would have a big flashback 00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:16.559 to that line to sort of underscore, oh, something's 00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:20.559 rippled back in time and that wish has become 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:24.900 real. But I don't think we heard that line again 00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:29.380 in flashbacks. This week? No, I certainly don't 00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:35.980 recall it. Yeah, it's a shame that it's the way 00:27:35.980 --> 00:27:38.140 it's gone because I really do think, you know, 00:27:38.180 --> 00:27:40.640 we had a fantastic actor. You know, we had a 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.440 good character and we've just not quite seen 00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:48.599 the potential. And I promise this is the last 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:50.559 time I'll grumble about it. You're not going 00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.569 to get. everything you want out of a character 00:27:53.569 --> 00:27:56.230 in an eight episode season like a companion should 00:27:56.230 --> 00:27:58.609 not be around for eight episodes and then that's 00:27:58.609 --> 00:28:01.609 it it just doesn't work these are characters 00:28:01.609 --> 00:28:04.809 that we're supposed to travel with and learn 00:28:04.809 --> 00:28:08.950 about and you know become fond of and then when 00:28:08.950 --> 00:28:12.430 you do get an exit it becomes more meaningful 00:28:12.430 --> 00:28:19.720 and it just doesn't feel like any of the impact 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.059 there's supposed to have been with this episode 00:28:22.059 --> 00:28:25.119 was earned with belinda i've seen it said and 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:30.059 i agree that um actually ruby almost had more 00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:33.680 development this year than belinda did i think 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:35.779 belinda had like you said a great introduction 00:28:35.779 --> 00:28:39.779 and was and was really promising at the start 00:28:39.779 --> 00:28:43.039 in terms of just the performance in the character 00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:47.000 but ruby had lucky day and then ruby had the 00:28:47.339 --> 00:28:51.140 really important big hero moments in this episode. 00:28:53.740 --> 00:28:55.680 And off the top of my head, I can't think of 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:59.460 Belinda getting... We didn't have a Doctor Light 00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:03.420 where Belinda got to take centre stage, like 00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:06.259 we did with 73 Yards and Lucky Day. So she didn't 00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:08.980 get that opportunity. Or did we? Did we have 00:29:08.980 --> 00:29:11.480 anything where the Doctor wasn't as present? 00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:14.940 Not really. Five minutes of Interstellar Song 00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:18.319 Contest. So she didn't get the chance to kind 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:20.579 of take center stage in the way that Ruby has 00:29:20.579 --> 00:29:25.299 done in two episodes across the seasons. And 00:29:25.299 --> 00:29:28.319 yeah, like we've already said, it's such a contrast 00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:31.980 with her just being literally locked away. And 00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:36.000 then Ruby is playing that really pivotal role 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:41.660 of teleporting in and taking on Conrad. Yeah. 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.960 I certainly hope we do see more of Ruby because 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.859 otherwise she just got abandoned and forgotten. 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:58.660 That was probably a factor of the reshoots. Totally, 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:04.980 yeah. It was almost like a bit back to front 00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:07.859 because I thought season one was a bit overplayed 00:30:07.859 --> 00:30:10.799 in terms of how big a deal the departure was. 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:14.980 it was almost like doomsday levels of trauma, 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.000 but they weren't being ripped apart. It was, 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.619 she's got a family that she wants to spend a 00:30:20.619 --> 00:30:23.279 bit of time with, you know, just take the TARDIS 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:25.440 forward a few months. What's the problem? And, 00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:28.240 and then this, this episode was the opposite 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.900 of like, oh, okay. It's the end of the year era. 00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:35.279 And there's not even a moment to, to say goodbye 00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:41.349 to Ruby. With any look. ruby is now part of this 00:30:41.349 --> 00:30:45.349 sort of extended group of unit characters like 00:30:45.349 --> 00:30:48.190 you know we can have her recurring in the same 00:30:48.190 --> 00:30:52.349 way we have kate and mel and all of the others 00:30:52.349 --> 00:30:56.950 you know shirley and hopefully hopefully that's 00:30:56.950 --> 00:31:01.589 that's where it's going to go because if that's 00:31:01.589 --> 00:31:04.730 ruby's final scene it would be such a shame it 00:31:04.730 --> 00:31:08.750 really would um we talked a lot about problems 00:31:08.750 --> 00:31:12.099 and issues but like you mentioned um like seeing 00:31:12.099 --> 00:31:14.259 the three of them together in the tardis i like 00:31:14.259 --> 00:31:16.740 that scene for another reason which was the the 00:31:16.740 --> 00:31:20.079 folding of the jacket i think that is one of 00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:24.559 the um that's like one of the most kind of sort 00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:27.220 of emotional like poetic moments that they've 00:31:27.220 --> 00:31:30.160 been in doctor who and it was like it's like 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.259 i would have liked a more coherent story with 00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:37.839 russell t davis adding that sort of depth and 00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:42.880 emotion to things um and and and if we were going 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:46.259 to do this huge sweeping arc about the gods then 00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:51.000 that sort of that type of magical realism where 00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:55.200 reality's bending a little bit and and and you're 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:58.640 using it to tell stories about what emotions 00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:02.059 people are going through then yeah i would have 00:32:02.059 --> 00:32:04.619 liked more than that more of that and less of 00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:10.900 like giant skeleton versions of omega yeah um 00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:17.640 yeah absolutely and it's it feels like there's 00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:19.960 an awful lot of surface level stuff and i don't 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:22.099 think really we'll ever know how much of that 00:32:22.099 --> 00:32:24.960 is through necessity and how much of that is 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:27.039 through what was actually there on the page to 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:33.519 start with yeah um which yeah just the I mean, 00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:36.720 the whole God storyline, where do we stand with 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:40.359 that now? Nothing feels resolved. Nothing even 00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:44.539 feels paused for the end of a season. I'm just 00:32:44.539 --> 00:32:48.259 very curious as to... I think it's wrapped up. 00:32:48.579 --> 00:32:50.980 Again, maybe it was wrapped up a year earlier 00:32:50.980 --> 00:32:52.579 than intended and maybe that's why it doesn't 00:32:52.579 --> 00:32:57.940 feel complete. But I think... I'm trying to think 00:32:57.940 --> 00:33:00.079 of anything that confirms it directly, but the 00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:03.289 impression I came away from it was... That, like, 00:33:03.329 --> 00:33:06.230 that magic stuff has been put away. Well, because 00:33:06.230 --> 00:33:11.009 he said no more wishes. That seemed to be drawing 00:33:11.009 --> 00:33:15.150 a line under all of the sort of magic, gods -related 00:33:15.150 --> 00:33:20.490 stuff that was going on. We'll see, moving forward 00:33:20.490 --> 00:33:24.490 anyway. But it kind of feels like there should 00:33:24.490 --> 00:33:29.710 have been more to it than that. And, you know, 00:33:29.730 --> 00:33:34.009 there's still references to the boss. You know, 00:33:34.009 --> 00:33:37.250 the boss of the hotel, is that the same as the 00:33:37.250 --> 00:33:40.490 Meeps boss that was mentioned way back when in 00:33:40.490 --> 00:33:44.650 Starbeast? And, you know, there's still, there 00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:47.089 are hanging story threads. There are things there 00:33:47.089 --> 00:33:49.690 that need resolving. Like, you know, is Mavity 00:33:49.690 --> 00:33:52.109 ever going to go anywhere? Well, the other big 00:33:52.109 --> 00:33:57.640 one is Rogue, which it seems... that again seems 00:33:57.640 --> 00:33:59.440 like something that was cut short that seems 00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:01.680 obvious for like in season three there would 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:04.920 have been an episode with the doctor saving him 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:10.219 or them reuniting it just uh yeah which could 00:34:10.219 --> 00:34:13.639 still happen yeah with a different doctor but 00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:17.780 it's it yeah that feels really incomplete to 00:34:17.780 --> 00:34:20.340 me as well that you would make such a big deal 00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:23.280 of their relationship and then it's it's like 00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:28.179 And to bring him back in for that little green 00:34:28.179 --> 00:34:32.920 screen appearance on the TV as well, it's almost 00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:35.000 like, would it have been better to have taken 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:38.800 that out rather than draw attention to the fact 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:41.199 that that thread was left angling? You could 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:43.159 argue, would it have been better to take Susan 00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:46.260 out of Interstellar Song Contest as well? Yeah, 00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:48.820 or at least not bring her back for the little 00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:53.750 flashbacks in. and, you know, have replaced both 00:34:53.750 --> 00:34:56.010 Rogue and Susan in Wishworld, at least, so that 00:34:56.010 --> 00:34:59.949 you're not bringing them both up again. Yeah. 00:35:00.210 --> 00:35:05.010 It's almost like a reminder of unfinished storylines. 00:35:05.449 --> 00:35:08.190 Yeah. It's like, oh, yeah, this is happening 00:35:08.190 --> 00:35:12.650 still, by the way. Yeah. I hope there is some 00:35:12.650 --> 00:35:16.329 clarity on the show's future, what's going on, 00:35:16.489 --> 00:35:18.150 what the deal with Billy Piper, and we haven't 00:35:18.150 --> 00:35:20.960 discussed Billy Piper yet. What's the deal there? 00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:24.159 Because everything that's happened so far seems 00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:28.860 to have gone out of its way to not confirm that 00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:32.559 Billy Piper is playing the Doctor. At the end 00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:35.400 it was introducing Billy Piper and the press 00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:38.440 release is all, you know, it never mentions Billy 00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:40.159 Piper as the Doctor, it just says Billy Piper 00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:43.380 is back. And there's a line about, is it, you 00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:45.619 know, one last trip in the TARDIS or something 00:35:45.619 --> 00:35:52.519 like that. Again, this feels like it's setting 00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:54.659 something else up, but this is going to be solved 00:35:54.659 --> 00:35:56.980 fairly short term. I think we're getting a Christmas 00:35:56.980 --> 00:35:59.960 special maybe at some point, Billy Piper. I don't 00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:03.119 know. That's my guess. Next year, though. Do 00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:06.260 you think they'll be able to film something for 00:36:06.260 --> 00:36:13.059 this year? Do I think it's possible? Yes. But 00:36:13.059 --> 00:36:16.019 it would have to happen very, very, very flipping 00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:22.360 soon. Surely. Yeah, I really don't know what's 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:24.980 happening with that. It feels like everything 00:36:24.980 --> 00:36:27.860 feels like it's left in a very, very funny place 00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:30.659 at the moment. And all along, I've been going 00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:33.219 all of these rumors of cancellation, blah, blah, 00:36:33.260 --> 00:36:38.500 blah, a load of nonsense. And right now it's 00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:40.579 sort of, well, no, I don't think it's canceled. 00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:42.179 I think we're going to get more Doctor Who and 00:36:42.179 --> 00:36:44.139 I think we're going to get more Doctor Who relatively 00:36:44.139 --> 00:36:48.940 soon, maybe a year or two. But we're in this 00:36:48.940 --> 00:36:51.699 just odd limbo where we've got a Doctor Who no 00:36:51.699 --> 00:36:54.559 one actually wants to say is the Doctor. We've 00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:58.860 had a very, very strange, I don't want to say 00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:02.500 botched, ending to Chuty's era, but certainly 00:37:02.500 --> 00:37:07.739 not a smooth ending. I think, yeah, we need something. 00:37:08.019 --> 00:37:10.960 Like, I think we need more Doctor Who as soon 00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:15.539 as possible just to kind of convince casual viewers, 00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:18.099 whatever you want to say, that... no, this isn't 00:37:18.099 --> 00:37:21.119 an absolute mess and it is going somewhere. Or 00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:28.440 we need new adventures to freshen the franchise 00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:32.099 up and get it out of a rut by trying new and 00:37:32.099 --> 00:37:34.039 different things. But I think the problem is 00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:36.900 that that won't happen because we have big finishes 00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:43.079 like for the last 20 odd years kind of being 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:46.420 in the forefront of extended universe stuff. 00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:49.639 So if it does go off of TV, people are going 00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:54.400 to look to Big Finish first before a niche series 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:57.599 of novels. And at the end of the day, Big Finish 00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:02.539 is really starting to fire up the idea of ongoing 00:38:02.539 --> 00:38:06.619 series again. We've not had much in the way of 00:38:06.619 --> 00:38:10.880 ongoing series from Big Finish really, the monthly 00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:13.139 range ending and that kind of thing. But we're 00:38:13.139 --> 00:38:19.739 getting... bi -monthly 13th Doctor and 9th Doctor 00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:24.179 series coming up. You know, we're getting Jodie 00:38:24.179 --> 00:38:26.659 Whittaker at Big Finish at long last. It's not 00:38:26.659 --> 00:38:29.800 taking that long, but at long last. And we're 00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:33.780 getting the 9th Doctor and Rose together. Yes, 00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:36.079 she might be playing, or she might have stories 00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:39.179 of her playing Rose being released while she's 00:38:39.179 --> 00:38:43.739 filming stories as the Doctor. If that's what 00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:47.309 she is. Yeah, it's very interesting. I wonder 00:38:47.309 --> 00:38:50.230 if they've danced around naming her as the Doctor 00:38:50.230 --> 00:38:55.329 just as a kind of safety mechanism. Maybe she's 00:38:55.329 --> 00:38:57.590 not contracted to do anything specific because 00:38:57.590 --> 00:39:01.210 they don't have anything confirmed. So is it 00:39:01.210 --> 00:39:03.050 as simple as that? It's just like dancing around 00:39:03.050 --> 00:39:07.010 it a little bit because she is not contracted 00:39:07.010 --> 00:39:10.750 to be the Doctor in any upcoming stories at the 00:39:10.750 --> 00:39:14.030 moment. Yeah, was it just a case of, Billy, will 00:39:14.030 --> 00:39:15.570 you come and stand in front of a green screen 00:39:15.570 --> 00:39:17.969 for us? It'll make an amazing shot at the end 00:39:17.969 --> 00:39:20.530 of an episode. I think because of how late it 00:39:20.530 --> 00:39:22.530 was, it feels like it was pretty much that. It 00:39:22.530 --> 00:39:27.590 was like, who will be a familiar face? Who isn't 00:39:27.590 --> 00:39:32.909 David Tennant again? Yeah, who will be able to 00:39:32.909 --> 00:39:35.489 come in and just do that moment? I have to admit, 00:39:35.809 --> 00:39:41.849 having heard rumours that... There was going 00:39:41.849 --> 00:39:44.349 to be a regeneration. I'm still calling it a 00:39:44.349 --> 00:39:46.349 surprise regeneration. It wasn't officially announced 00:39:46.349 --> 00:39:50.090 in any way. But having heard the rumours, expecting 00:39:50.090 --> 00:39:53.070 it and all this kind of thing, I kind of hoped 00:39:53.070 --> 00:39:55.849 they'd go with Joe Martin. How good would that 00:39:55.849 --> 00:39:59.429 have been? Yeah, we should have linked up with 00:39:59.429 --> 00:40:02.869 her line about her story being told or being 00:40:02.869 --> 00:40:06.000 finished. one day in the story in the engine 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.000 that would have been a really nice link even 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.039 if it was just a special with her but again I 00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:15.500 think I think that would have made sense in terms 00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:20.500 of it would have been nice but I feel like they're 00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:23.840 also with the renewal being uncertain they're 00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:25.800 also thinking about what is going to grab the 00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:27.960 most attention what's going to make the news 00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:33.780 and sadly I think like Billy Piper who's who's 00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:38.380 an amazing actor, she's going to get more space 00:40:38.380 --> 00:40:44.159 in news headlines than Joe Martin is. Yeah, very 00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:49.139 true. It does kind of make me slightly worried 00:40:49.139 --> 00:40:53.519 that we're going to fall into this phase of every 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:55.940 time it looks like Doctor Who's in trouble, we 00:40:55.940 --> 00:40:58.460 are going to bring back somebody from the David 00:40:58.460 --> 00:41:02.260 Tennant era. Well, the 15th is like... Bookended 00:41:02.260 --> 00:41:07.320 by David Tennant and Billy Piper. But yeah, are 00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:11.239 we just reusing an old trick here? I don't know. 00:41:11.340 --> 00:41:13.659 We'll see. Anyway, it's kind of unreasonable 00:41:13.659 --> 00:41:16.219 to speculate at this point because all we have 00:41:16.219 --> 00:41:18.800 had is two seconds at the end of an episode. 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:27.139 Yeah. We'll see. Well, just a few other points 00:41:27.139 --> 00:41:30.440 to kind of fire through. I don't know about you, 00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.519 but my highlight, absolute highlight of this 00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:38.380 episode was Jodie Whittaker's appearance. I thought 00:41:38.380 --> 00:41:42.599 that was absolutely wonderful. Like, she just 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:45.079 came in, she gave it all the energy in the world. 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:47.619 I honestly think it was her five best minutes 00:41:47.619 --> 00:41:50.260 as the Doctor, and it really makes me wish she'd 00:41:50.260 --> 00:41:52.440 have stuck around and done a season with Russell 00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:56.780 T. Davis or something, because she was just fantastic. 00:41:58.730 --> 00:42:01.510 For the first time ever, I thought, wow, I actually 00:42:01.510 --> 00:42:04.690 really miss this doctor. I really do. And it's 00:42:04.690 --> 00:42:08.670 really set me up for big finish next month. Yeah, 00:42:08.690 --> 00:42:10.670 I'm looking forward to her. I feel like she could 00:42:10.670 --> 00:42:18.710 be like Colin Baker levels of being given the 00:42:18.710 --> 00:42:22.050 chance to do stuff on audio that she didn't get 00:42:22.050 --> 00:42:25.349 the chance to do on TV. That moment was a bit, 00:42:25.449 --> 00:42:28.150 it's kind of... like if you're looking at it 00:42:28.150 --> 00:42:30.809 objectively, you could say it's a bit unnecessary, 00:42:30.989 --> 00:42:33.389 like to just throw that in. She could have been 00:42:33.389 --> 00:42:35.789 like a hologram or it could have been just like 00:42:35.789 --> 00:42:39.050 some other thing that prompts him to take action. 00:42:39.389 --> 00:42:41.570 But I didn't mind it because of exactly what 00:42:41.570 --> 00:42:43.210 you said of like how good it was to see her. 00:42:43.349 --> 00:42:46.050 And I think the attention to detail as well, 00:42:46.110 --> 00:42:48.889 like I think the music gets a bit more synthy 00:42:48.889 --> 00:42:52.690 as she comes in. So it's mimicking that Saganakanola 00:42:52.690 --> 00:42:56.519 style of music. when she's walking down the platform 00:42:56.519 --> 00:43:00.679 um yeah it was just great to see her and she 00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:05.000 yeah you're right it would have been amazing 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.960 to have had like at least a few specials with 00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:10.519 her because because i don't think we ever have 00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:14.099 had that have we because doctors tend to go with 00:43:14.099 --> 00:43:19.039 their showrunners yeah there's not been any overlap 00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:26.829 in post 2005. No, there isn't at all. The line, 00:43:26.929 --> 00:43:31.030 I laughed out loud with the line about Yaz, because 00:43:31.030 --> 00:43:36.449 of how accurate it was, but also how sad it was. 00:43:37.349 --> 00:43:39.929 And the way it was played was really nice as 00:43:39.929 --> 00:43:42.469 well, like the way the 15th Doctor says, oh no, 00:43:42.570 --> 00:43:49.070 you never do. And it's kind of like playfully 00:43:49.070 --> 00:43:51.280 pointing out some of the... missed opportunities, 00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:55.420 I think, in that era. But in a sort of, yeah, 00:43:55.960 --> 00:44:00.179 like a gentle way. But it's, yeah, you look back 00:44:00.179 --> 00:44:03.440 at the 13th Doctor's era and you do think, you 00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:05.440 know, how would have things been if they'd just 00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:08.199 been a bit braver with some of the decisions 00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:13.460 around all that stuff? Yeah, it kind of, when 00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:15.539 you look back at the 13th Doctor's era, it had 00:44:15.539 --> 00:44:20.070 so much going for it. And there's a lot of unrealised 00:44:20.070 --> 00:44:24.289 potential there. And I do think COVID is a big, 00:44:24.289 --> 00:44:29.849 big factor in this. But, yeah, we, you know, 00:44:29.869 --> 00:44:32.869 just the way it felt that we didn't get as many 00:44:32.869 --> 00:44:35.329 episodes as we should have done. And, you know, 00:44:35.329 --> 00:44:38.329 Legend of the Sea Devils, it's another one where 00:44:38.329 --> 00:44:40.889 it's quite clearly a bit of a troubled production 00:44:40.889 --> 00:44:43.929 where things didn't go the right way and changes 00:44:43.929 --> 00:44:45.849 were made last minute and all that kind of thing. 00:44:47.539 --> 00:44:50.420 we could have got so much more out of that era 00:44:50.420 --> 00:44:52.679 and it's just kind of a shame that it went the 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:57.840 way it did. But yeah, it was so good to see Jodie 00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:02.079 Whittaker's daughter again. Like I say, it made 00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:04.059 me realise I've actually missed this incarnation 00:45:04.059 --> 00:45:07.440 and now I'm very, very excited about getting 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.519 the further adventures with Big Finish and I 00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:13.940 really hope that that ends up being a great series. 00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:17.489 Yeah. When you said, like, your favourite moment 00:45:17.489 --> 00:45:20.090 of the episode, my first thought was the Two 00:45:20.090 --> 00:45:25.829 Ronnies joke with Anita Dobson. Do you know how 00:45:25.829 --> 00:45:29.170 long it took me to get that? Honestly, it was 00:45:29.170 --> 00:45:31.309 like two days later. It was like on Monday. I 00:45:31.309 --> 00:45:33.769 just suddenly went, Two Ronnies. Oh, bloody hell. 00:45:34.030 --> 00:45:36.190 What did you think it meant in context then? 00:45:36.690 --> 00:45:39.150 I mean, I thought it was just quoting the Two 00:45:39.150 --> 00:45:42.170 Ronnies. I totally got that it was quoting Two 00:45:42.170 --> 00:45:44.929 Ronnies. But the whole Two Ronnies thing, that. 00:45:45.469 --> 00:45:47.510 That's what took me two days and I genuinely 00:45:47.510 --> 00:45:49.969 just went, oh, for God's sake, should have got 00:45:49.969 --> 00:45:53.610 that straight away. But it was brilliant. Yeah, 00:45:53.690 --> 00:45:56.630 it was one of the best bits of the episode, even 00:45:56.630 --> 00:45:59.789 if I didn't get it first time. It sort of excuses 00:45:59.789 --> 00:46:05.090 Mrs. Flood shifting into that conspicuously subservient 00:46:05.090 --> 00:46:09.170 mode for the last couple of episodes. We knew 00:46:09.170 --> 00:46:11.469 what she was doing. She was always going to be 00:46:11.469 --> 00:46:15.780 the one that survived. It wasn't that. There 00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:18.739 wasn't a moment where she turned on the new Rani, 00:46:18.820 --> 00:46:21.800 though. We didn't get that. It was just she was 00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:23.739 saving herself after the other one had died. 00:46:24.739 --> 00:46:27.239 Yeah. She sort of very quickly grabbed the time 00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:32.639 ring and went, didn't she? Yeah. I wonder if, 00:46:32.659 --> 00:46:37.340 again, just speculation, but I wonder if there 00:46:37.340 --> 00:46:39.880 could have been an opportunity where she made 00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:43.630 a choice where the new Rani was... being pulled 00:46:43.630 --> 00:46:46.429 away or was in danger and she has a choice of 00:46:46.429 --> 00:46:52.309 to go for the time ring or to save her. Yeah. 00:46:54.150 --> 00:46:57.150 Again, I wonder if more was meant to be made 00:46:57.150 --> 00:47:00.190 of that bit with Omega and it ended up getting 00:47:00.190 --> 00:47:03.110 cut because we had to deal with other things 00:47:03.110 --> 00:47:06.329 later on. Because it all seemed to happen very 00:47:06.329 --> 00:47:10.710 quickly and sort of was very functional from 00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:14.510 a plot point of view. I haven't talked about 00:47:14.510 --> 00:47:19.230 Omega much, but I think it felt like a rerun 00:47:19.230 --> 00:47:22.670 of Sutec. You take that classic character, but 00:47:22.670 --> 00:47:25.110 turn them into something where you're just using 00:47:25.110 --> 00:47:29.550 your CGI budget, which is kind of visually impressive, 00:47:29.769 --> 00:47:33.730 and it's a scary moment, but it didn't... Yeah, 00:47:33.829 --> 00:47:36.170 I feel like at that point, why not just create 00:47:36.170 --> 00:47:39.409 a new monster or threat from the Underverse? 00:47:39.489 --> 00:47:41.690 Maybe you're expecting Omega, and then this... 00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:46.559 this different thing emerges. And it's kind of 00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:50.000 doubly weird because they've done the Rani in 00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:53.320 quite an authentic, classic way that's echoing 00:47:53.320 --> 00:48:02.219 Kate O'Mara. And then they've done this odd take 00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:08.019 on Omega. I'm very, very glad that Anita Dobson's 00:48:08.019 --> 00:48:12.599 Rani got away. But it is another thing. thing 00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:16.900 left hanging like the rani should always be out 00:48:16.900 --> 00:48:18.820 there like the master should always be out there 00:48:18.820 --> 00:48:21.360 or at least the possibility of the master always 00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:25.079 being out there should be a thing but but you 00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:28.139 know at least we sort of we dealt with omega 00:48:28.139 --> 00:48:32.659 like he's still back locked in his tomb under 00:48:32.659 --> 00:48:35.340 dimension whatever it is underverse which is 00:48:35.340 --> 00:48:37.780 that the antimatter universe it was not clear 00:48:37.780 --> 00:48:40.539 but like the the new rani isn't necessarily dead 00:48:40.539 --> 00:48:43.980 though it could be a Boba Fett situation where 00:48:43.980 --> 00:48:49.440 she is still alive. I'm seeing a whole spin -off 00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:55.860 series that the Rani's barely in. But yeah, it's... 00:48:55.860 --> 00:49:05.340 I'm not sure we needed Omega for that. Even if 00:49:05.340 --> 00:49:07.119 you're bringing back a villain from the past... 00:49:09.389 --> 00:49:13.449 But it could have been the Beast from Impossible 00:49:13.449 --> 00:49:16.269 Planet and Satan Pit. Why didn't we do that? 00:49:16.309 --> 00:49:18.750 That would have been better. That would have 00:49:18.750 --> 00:49:21.670 made more sense. Okay, it doesn't make sense 00:49:21.670 --> 00:49:23.409 that the Rani's trying to dig out the Beast, 00:49:23.610 --> 00:49:28.510 but in terms of villain that it could have been, 00:49:28.570 --> 00:49:31.650 that would have been a better option. Or she's 00:49:31.650 --> 00:49:34.690 looking for Omega and she gets the Beast by accident, 00:49:34.929 --> 00:49:41.840 like something she's not expecting. Yeah. I mean, 00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:43.659 like with Sutec, at least there was like that 00:49:43.659 --> 00:49:47.380 link to the god of death and he's changing the 00:49:47.380 --> 00:49:50.039 way he's operating, but there's some sort of 00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:53.260 thread that's following through. But yeah, I 00:49:53.260 --> 00:49:54.860 feel like with Omega, there wasn't even that 00:49:54.860 --> 00:49:59.739 thread. I know there's that line. What's the 00:49:59.739 --> 00:50:01.500 line in the classic series about saying, you 00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:05.219 know, he should have been a god? Yeah. I suppose 00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:06.980 there's that. That's the connection. I worshipped 00:50:06.980 --> 00:50:09.119 you as a hero. No, I shouldn't have been a hero. 00:50:09.139 --> 00:50:10.760 I should have been a god, that kind of thing. 00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:15.619 So it's a bit tenuous, though. Yeah, definitely. 00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:22.159 But I want more Rani. I want more Anita Dobson's 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:26.579 Rani. I want her to get to be the evil one. Did 00:50:26.579 --> 00:50:32.320 you prefer her to Archie Punjabi? Because Archie 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:35.619 Punjabi's one was much more in the... vein of 00:50:35.619 --> 00:50:38.940 Kate O'Mara. I feel like Mrs. Flood, again, this 00:50:38.940 --> 00:50:41.260 might be a retrospective thing, but I'm not convinced 00:50:41.260 --> 00:50:44.260 that she was always meant to be the Rani. I wonder 00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:47.840 if that was a retrospective thing that came in 00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:50.980 this year. Yeah, some of her dialogue in the 00:50:50.980 --> 00:50:54.559 finale of Series 1 isn't particularly Rani -ish. 00:50:55.420 --> 00:50:58.880 Yeah. Could have been referring to Omega, but 00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:04.070 I'm not convinced. No, we'll... We'll sort of 00:51:04.070 --> 00:51:08.269 park that one as we'll see. But I think Archie 00:51:08.269 --> 00:51:11.409 Punjabi was, like you say, she was the Kate O'Mara 00:51:11.409 --> 00:51:15.210 Rani. She was proper Rani and absolutely fantastic. 00:51:15.329 --> 00:51:19.730 Did it really, really well. But I think the Anita 00:51:19.730 --> 00:51:23.750 Dobson Rani is the one that's perhaps got more 00:51:23.750 --> 00:51:27.210 interesting stories to tell moving forward, that 00:51:27.210 --> 00:51:30.000 kind of thing. And I suppose like most of the 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.619 time we've seen her in previous episodes, she's 00:51:32.619 --> 00:51:35.239 been playing a role or hiding. So maybe we haven't 00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:39.360 seen her being herself yet at all because we've 00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:42.320 seen her playing a role and then like suddenly 00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:45.000 being subservient to this new Raleigh. So what's 00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:48.079 she like when she is actually just being herself? 00:51:48.699 --> 00:51:50.659 Yeah, it'll be interesting. And I hope we get 00:51:50.659 --> 00:51:53.960 that. I really do hope we get that. Because there's... 00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:57.059 Well, at the very least, we know there's another 00:51:57.059 --> 00:52:00.500 Time Lord out there now. Even if it's just one, 00:52:00.579 --> 00:52:02.380 and even if it's the Rani, there's another Time 00:52:02.380 --> 00:52:05.860 Lord out there now, and that makes things more 00:52:05.860 --> 00:52:08.119 interesting. It's always more interesting when 00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:11.440 he's not quite the last of the Time Lords. Well, 00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:14.139 there's the Master's Tooth as well. Sorry, the 00:52:14.139 --> 00:52:17.440 Toymaker's Tooth with the Master in it. There 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.380 is another on the list of unresolved things. 00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:24.619 We're going to have to do an episode about unresolved 00:52:24.619 --> 00:52:29.639 things sometime. We could do big finish pitches 00:52:29.639 --> 00:52:33.300 for how big finish would wrap up each of these 00:52:33.300 --> 00:52:36.199 unresolved threads. Yes, tying off loose ends. 00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:42.300 Okay, well, we're sort of close to running out 00:52:42.300 --> 00:52:45.650 of time on this one. there is sort of one thing 00:52:45.650 --> 00:52:47.869 that we should go into before we finish really, 00:52:47.989 --> 00:52:50.789 which is, so this has been a series. The series 00:52:50.789 --> 00:52:53.769 is done. We've had our eight episodes. What are 00:52:53.769 --> 00:52:55.849 your overall thoughts on the series? Can you 00:52:55.849 --> 00:52:59.210 pick a favourite episode? And are we walking 00:52:59.210 --> 00:53:01.670 away generally calling this one a winner, even 00:53:01.670 --> 00:53:04.829 if the ending was a little bit on the shaky side? 00:53:05.909 --> 00:53:09.670 I think it's very similar to series one in that 00:53:09.670 --> 00:53:15.480 because I... wasn't as sold on the ending it 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:18.719 sort of artificially brings down the impression 00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:20.760 of the whole season but it's exactly the same 00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:24.300 thing of like the middle had some really strong 00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:29.699 inventive stuff i think like episodes two through 00:53:29.699 --> 00:53:33.219 two i'm trying to remember which was which yeah 00:53:33.219 --> 00:53:35.920 i think two through to six i really really enjoyed 00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:43.269 um so five out of seven episodes and Robot Revolution 00:53:43.269 --> 00:53:48.329 was okay as well, that's a pretty good hit rate. 00:53:49.170 --> 00:53:53.690 Yeah, I'll take a series where sort of three 00:53:53.690 --> 00:53:58.050 quarters of it are pretty damn strong. Yeah, 00:53:58.130 --> 00:54:02.110 do you think we should just abandon the concept 00:54:02.110 --> 00:54:05.949 of big overblown finales with that? Especially 00:54:05.949 --> 00:54:08.909 with this, you've mentioned the episode count 00:54:08.909 --> 00:54:11.960 and how that restricts. like what you can do 00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:14.840 and how much you can develop characters, maybe 00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:16.960 it would help to not feel that obligation to 00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:19.860 take up a quarter of your episode count with 00:54:19.860 --> 00:54:24.119 a finale or just do like a more low -key single 00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:31.199 episode finale. I'm going to say no because A, 00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:36.219 I thought The Legend of Ruby Sunday was absolutely 00:54:36.219 --> 00:54:38.739 fantastic and you'd never have had that as an 00:54:38.739 --> 00:54:41.489 episode on its own. It had to be building up 00:54:41.489 --> 00:54:46.469 to something to work. And B, the giggle. I still 00:54:46.469 --> 00:54:49.309 think the giggle's brilliant. Yeah, I really 00:54:49.309 --> 00:54:51.789 like the giggle. Okay, it's episode three, but 00:54:51.789 --> 00:54:57.090 it's still a big RTD finale. Yeah. Yeah, I really 00:54:57.090 --> 00:54:59.150 like the giggle. I still feel like, I think we 00:54:59.150 --> 00:55:00.849 said this with the series one retrospective, 00:55:00.849 --> 00:55:06.849 I think those three tenant specials feel like 00:55:06.849 --> 00:55:11.340 so much... more, like, nicely structured and 00:55:11.340 --> 00:55:14.960 coherent to me than, like, the sort of ups and 00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:17.300 downs of series one and two, or season one and 00:55:17.300 --> 00:55:20.539 two. But I think the main thing that helps those 00:55:20.539 --> 00:55:22.440 was the fact that the two leads were already 00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:25.320 established. We've known and loved the Doctor, 00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:29.260 well, okay, the 10th Doctor, 14th Doctor, David 00:55:29.260 --> 00:55:32.199 Tennant's Doctor, and Donna. We've known and 00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:34.860 loved them for 15 years, more than 15 years. 00:55:37.059 --> 00:55:41.030 So, It was really easy to do those three episodes 00:55:41.030 --> 00:55:44.750 because you didn't have to make your audience 00:55:44.750 --> 00:55:49.289 care about those characters because that work 00:55:49.289 --> 00:55:53.010 had already been done in a 13 -episode series 00:55:53.010 --> 00:55:55.909 plus a load of specials. I guess that's a factor, 00:55:55.969 --> 00:55:59.469 but there was... It's strange, though, because 00:55:59.469 --> 00:56:03.110 we talked about the three 60th anniversary specials 00:56:03.110 --> 00:56:06.659 as almost being like a speed run of a... old 00:56:06.659 --> 00:56:11.000 13 episode series with like you know your light 00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:14.840 lighter opening the weird one in the middle and 00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:17.860 then the big finale but for some reason that 00:56:17.860 --> 00:56:21.519 structure really worked as a trilogy and for 00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:24.159 these two eight episode seasons that we've had 00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:27.780 something has just felt off to me about trying 00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:30.559 to squeeze the 13 episode structure into eight 00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:34.920 episodes and yeah Maybe this would have all worked 00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:39.079 better if it was just approached as a 16 -episode 00:56:39.079 --> 00:56:44.059 series with a mid -season break and a cliffhanger. 00:56:46.179 --> 00:56:48.940 Because these two seasons went out quite close 00:56:48.940 --> 00:56:53.800 together, relatively compared to some of the 00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:56.199 gaps we've had in the past. We weren't waiting 00:56:56.199 --> 00:56:58.340 a long time between season one and season two. 00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:01.940 Also, weren't they more or less recorded together? 00:57:02.989 --> 00:57:08.170 close together at least yeah like yeah um yeah 00:57:08.170 --> 00:57:12.570 yeah so there was the potential to do that and 00:57:12.570 --> 00:57:16.210 maybe you know they didn't want to they just 00:57:16.210 --> 00:57:20.570 wanted to to have like a really definitive line 00:57:20.570 --> 00:57:23.530 under series one to like generate buzz and impact 00:57:23.530 --> 00:57:29.769 but yeah i think using a 16 episode run to tell 00:57:29.769 --> 00:57:33.900 her to tell one big story might work better Yeah, 00:57:33.980 --> 00:57:35.940 and I think moving forward that could well be 00:57:35.940 --> 00:57:40.019 the way to do it. In terms of story, character 00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:42.739 development and so on, treat every two series 00:57:42.739 --> 00:57:46.019 as one series has been treated in the past. Or 00:57:46.019 --> 00:57:49.960 Flux as well. I think Flux had issues with how 00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:53.579 it ended, but as a structure for Doctor Who, 00:57:53.699 --> 00:57:58.800 I think it worked really well. Just tell one 00:57:58.800 --> 00:58:02.559 really tightly connected story week to week. 00:58:03.949 --> 00:58:07.530 When you think about it, Dan had more or less 00:58:07.530 --> 00:58:11.309 the same number of episodes as Belinda, and we 00:58:11.309 --> 00:58:13.289 got to know him, or at least it felt like we 00:58:13.289 --> 00:58:15.210 got to know him a hell of a lot better. Yeah. 00:58:16.250 --> 00:58:21.030 So, yeah. And Russell T. Davis is really good 00:58:21.030 --> 00:58:25.050 at quite deftly and concisely giving you a sense 00:58:25.050 --> 00:58:28.670 of who characters are. So he can do it. It's 00:58:28.670 --> 00:58:32.400 just, again, maybe just... the way that this 00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:35.579 character came about maybe it made it more difficult 00:58:35.579 --> 00:58:38.480 this time but like this there's so many examples 00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:41.579 in in the 2005 series of like moments with rose 00:58:41.579 --> 00:58:45.800 and her mum and um and even the little supporting 00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:49.000 characters you get in in some of those early 00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:52.980 stories again just like a few lines or a little 00:58:52.980 --> 00:58:56.119 moment is used to tell you something quite fundamental 00:58:56.119 --> 00:59:01.110 about them yeah absolutely It'll always come 00:59:01.110 --> 00:59:04.650 back to that line about Colsthor from Jackie 00:59:04.650 --> 00:59:06.969 Tyler, won't it? You know, a bit clinical. That's 00:59:06.969 --> 00:59:09.269 brilliant, that. Fantastic line. Gives you so 00:59:09.269 --> 00:59:12.150 much about that character, and I love it. And 00:59:12.150 --> 00:59:15.190 stuff like that has been missing, it feels like. 00:59:16.369 --> 00:59:20.050 Yeah. Anyway, that's probably a good point to 00:59:20.050 --> 00:59:22.590 leave it, but overall, I'm calling it a good 00:59:22.590 --> 00:59:26.150 series. I think the finale has left me feeling 00:59:26.150 --> 00:59:29.679 a tiny bit... underwhelmed I think that's more 00:59:29.679 --> 00:59:34.219 of a circumstances that the finale ended up being 00:59:34.219 --> 00:59:38.400 made under than anything else thing but you know 00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:41.400 there's an awful lot there to enjoy and I'm probably 00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:43.480 doing that typical Doctor Who fan thing of just 00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:45.739 focusing on the bits I wasn't so keen on because 00:59:45.739 --> 00:59:47.579 there were bits of it that I absolutely loved 00:59:47.579 --> 00:59:52.300 I'd be surprised if we have a 17 year hiatus 00:59:52.300 --> 00:59:56.400 but so I'm pretty sure it won't be as long as 00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:59.019 that With any luck, we'll see Doctor Who within 00:59:59.019 --> 01:00:02.719 the next 15 years. Well, there was that line 01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:05.260 in an interview about kids watching Newsround 01:00:05.260 --> 01:00:09.619 today will be the ones who bring it back in the 01:00:09.619 --> 01:00:16.480 future. So maybe it will be around then. But 01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:20.780 I hope it's not partly because of, I don't know 01:00:20.780 --> 01:00:24.599 if that ending on Billy Piper is as nice a full 01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:29.679 stop as... 1989's moment in survival was which 01:00:29.679 --> 01:00:32.880 wasn't intended to be the final story but the 01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:35.260 final speech is tacked on but I think it works 01:00:35.260 --> 01:00:39.539 amazingly and the story as well is kind of like 01:00:39.539 --> 01:00:43.780 a thematic callback to going back to the Daleks 01:00:43.780 --> 01:00:48.539 and ideas about violence and whether it's right 01:00:48.539 --> 01:00:51.519 or not and Yeah, it just seemed like a really 01:00:51.519 --> 01:00:54.480 nice summing up of who the Doctor is and what 01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:59.539 the show is. I think that's it. Instead of sort 01:00:59.539 --> 01:01:03.059 of thematically revisiting Rose, we've literally 01:01:03.059 --> 01:01:06.679 revisited Rose. And if it does end up being the 01:01:06.679 --> 01:01:09.980 way this era's wrapped up, then so be it, I guess. 01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:12.300 Oh, and one thing we didn't talk about, speaking 01:01:12.300 --> 01:01:14.960 of violence, yeah, we didn't even get into the 01:01:14.960 --> 01:01:18.079 whole thing about the image of the Doctor. saving 01:01:18.079 --> 01:01:23.599 the day by just shooting a giant gun. Yeah. Yeah. 01:01:23.900 --> 01:01:27.840 I think, again, that might be part of the abandoned 01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:31.739 arc stuff. It's something the Doctor totally 01:01:31.739 --> 01:01:35.320 doesn't do until he does. Yeah, which is okay 01:01:35.320 --> 01:01:37.980 when it's kind of by exception, but for it to 01:01:37.980 --> 01:01:40.679 be such a fundamental big moment in the series 01:01:40.679 --> 01:01:44.000 finale and his final story, maybe it wasn't intended 01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:47.119 to be that. That didn't feel right to me that 01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:49.480 you have that moment. And then you have Ruby 01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:52.559 counterpointing it by saving the day with compassion 01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:57.820 at the same time. Yeah, I definitely get the 01:01:57.820 --> 01:02:01.099 impression we were maybe heading into a the daughter's 01:02:01.099 --> 01:02:04.500 getting a bit too trigger -happy era. Yeah, exactly. 01:02:04.739 --> 01:02:10.179 If things had continued as planned. Oh, well, 01:02:10.260 --> 01:02:12.599 we don't know what's going to come next. Hopefully 01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:15.139 there will be some indication sometime soon. 01:02:15.340 --> 01:02:18.440 I sincerely hope so, because I will always want 01:02:18.440 --> 01:02:21.539 there to be more Doctor Who. There's still loads 01:02:21.539 --> 01:02:23.559 of new Doctor Who content for us to enjoy, though. 01:02:23.619 --> 01:02:26.380 There's Big Finish, there's books, there's all 01:02:26.380 --> 01:02:29.280 sorts going on. So I guess it's just a case of 01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:32.760 sit back, wait and see. And meanwhile, this week 01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:35.000 we've had a pretty good fourth Doctor Adventures 01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:38.940 set come out. Doctor Who will carry on forever, 01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:43.739 maybe just not on telly. Yeah. So, yeah, we'll 01:02:43.739 --> 01:02:46.199 leave it there for this week anyway. But it's 01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:48.940 been absolutely fantastic talking about not just 01:02:48.940 --> 01:02:50.579 this episode, but this whole series with the 01:02:50.579 --> 01:02:54.920 Mansour kind of. Yeah. I found that, you know, 01:02:54.920 --> 01:02:57.579 doing week by week has actually proved to be 01:02:57.579 --> 01:03:01.019 a pretty successful experiment. And I hope we 01:03:01.019 --> 01:03:04.199 get to do it again sometime soon. Yeah, absolutely. 01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:08.199 So thank you for joining me on it. Yeah, no worries. 01:03:08.380 --> 01:03:11.059 We'll be back for more Spodcasting next week. 01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:11.900 Goodbye now.