You're listening to a podcast of Spurious Morality.
Only now am I thinking we should have done some
kind of intergalactic song contest related intro
to this one. Where's Connor? I bet he does a
good Ryland impression. No, let's not inflate
that upon the world. Hello and welcome to the
803rd episode of a podcast of Spurious Morality.
We should have arranged the whole podcast so
that this was the 803rd episode. Yeah. A bit
of an oversight. We should have recorded another
sort of 670 -something episodes in the last week
just to get ourselves there. Yeah, we've slipped
up there. Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious
morality. I'm Johnston and with me again this
week I have Mansour. Hello. Hello. And we're
carrying on looking at the latest new current
series of Doctor Who. And the most recent episode
is the Intergalactic Song Contest. And I think
expectations were quite high for this one. It
was obviously a bit of a high budget episode.
you know, a writer that has done some Doctor
Who stuff before but hasn't made it onto telly
yet. And we were teased, Russell T. Davis teased
that you really want to watch this one as quickly
as possible so you don't get spoiled. And I think
he was very, very right about that. This is the
first one this series where I have kind of gone,
yeah, I need to watch this as soon as possible
and kind of got to... Got to it on iPlayer as
quickly as I can. And I'm glad I did because
I managed to get through to it without at least
one thing being spoiled. I did kind of see the
other spoiled on Facebook. It's my own fault
for logging onto Facebook. But yeah, I think
this one justified the hype. I think that we've
actually got an episode that... Was built up
beforehand. A lot of people were kind of expecting
an awful lot from it. And I think it delivered.
This is going to be a very spoilery chat. I've
not done spoiler warnings for a while, but I
kind of feel as though we should do one for this
one. Like you're listening to a podcast episode
about the Intergalactic Song Contest. I'm hoping
you've seen it by this point, but this is going
to spoil a lot. Because we've got two big, big,
big things. We've got a lot of little things,
but we've got two huge things. One of those things
was obviously the on -screen return of Susan,
who I think we're going to see more from. She
kind of appeared, she said a few lines and then
she disappeared. I hope that there's more to
Susan's first proper appearance in the series
since The Five Doctors to that. And we also found
out that Mrs. Flood is the Rani and bi -generated
into another Rani. So now we have two Ranis.
And I can't believe neither of the next two episodes
are not having their names changed to the two
Ranis. Why would you not? Surely it's so tempting.
It's very easy to just sort of dig into these
things that I've mentioned. It's very easy to
just kind of go, oh, it's the one where Susan
comes back and it's got two Ronnies at the end.
But actually there's the episode itself, which
was sort of in some ways like standard political
Doctor Who fare, but in other ways it was really,
really well done. It was a really engaging story.
It was, you know, we had a good villain, a really
well played villain, bit of a tragic villain,
you know. They were sort of in their own heads.
They were freedom fighters. They were getting
revenge. They were making a point. The idea that
the Eurovision Song Contest carries on to be
this big intergalactic affair with trillions
of viewers, I thought was brilliant. Ryland,
as himself, was a great bit of casting. The surprise
cameo from Graham Norton was brilliant. It wasn't
a surprise, actually. We were told about it.
But the cameo from Graham Norton was brilliant.
You know, him being the one that tells the Doctor
that Earth was destroyed on the 24th of May or
whenever it is. That was great. And everything
fit together. Like, even talking about this episode
now, it feels like I'm just kind of emptying
a kitchen sink and then throwing the kitchen
sink in as well. But actually, it all gelled
together really nicely. It was a really good,
really fun episode. I think the bit that's maybe
not getting the amount of discussion that it
deserves is the fact that the Doctor went pretty
dark in this one. Like, this is the most sinister
we've seen this Doctor. I'd say it's the most
sinister we've seen a Doctor behave probably
since Peter Capaldi when he was running around
shooting Time Lords. Really, really good. Like,
Shooty got a couple of sinister moments and...
They were good sinister moments. They were well
-written sinister moments, really well -performed
sinister moments. And I like just getting the
odd reminder that the Doctor can go a bit dark
and the whole, you know, there's ice in my heart
now speech was absolutely brilliant. Really felt
like we got, it felt slightly like this Doctor's
sort of Zygon inversion moment, you know, that
moment, I think I mentioned it last week, actually,
when we suddenly got, This absolutely out of
this world, this is what this actor is capable
of performance at Capaldi. I feel like we've
now got that with Shooty, which is just great.
So I was a really big fan of this one. And I'm
actually now at a stage where I've seen some
of the people kind of ranking the episodes of
this season, you know, putting this one certainly
very close to the top, if not at the top. I can't
do it. I think any of the last, certainly the
last three episodes are potentially the best
episode of this series. It's just so good. Like
the quality we're getting this year is, it's
some of the best, some of the consistent, most
consistently brilliant Doctor Who we've had for
quite a long time. I'm really enjoying it. What
about you, Mansour? Where were you sort of on
this episode? this series as a whole so far i
guess because that's where i went with that um
the the it's interesting because i probably feel
quite similar to you with all the stuff you mentioned
but i've seen very mixed reactions to this episode
there are some people calling it i could do the
gym just with like you know youtube reviews popping
up in the last few days i've seen some people
calling it okay and some people calling it like
the worst episode of the season or this or this
era um but yeah it's definitely towards the the
top for me um like really good spectacle i think
that was another part of the expectation that
was built up by the whole sequence of uh the
audience being um sucked off into space uh and
at that point you don't know that they're going
to be preserved or or put into um uh like like
stasis because you don't know anything about
that field the way it's played is that those
hundreds of thousands of people are just being
slaughtered immediately in this huge um incident
uh so yeah just like so the impact of that and
just the visuals of that sequence were really
striking um like a lot of things it's there's
like elements that feel very familiar from rtd1
like uh you know meeting those side characters
who conveniently play uh or conveniently have
the skills to rise above just being a sort of
standard ordinary person and being really vital
to the to the plot um that that was all that
was all great uh oh you mentioned the the uh
politics of it as well i think and um that that's
one of the things that i've seen people criticize
it for as much as praise it for, with a lot of
people saying that it was an oversimplification
or a ham -fisted handling of politics and a bit
black and white and the resolution was too neat.
And I can see all those things, but it's like
when people are making all these comparisons.
between like lucky day and adolescence and there
are some interesting comparisons to be drawn
but like one of these is a is a is a major bbc
one show aimed at the whole family and one of
them is a is a netflix drama that is a bit you
know a bit more niche has gotten a lot of attention
but is definitely more niche and is something
that will have a much more selective audience
The fact that Doctor Who has this big mainstream
flagship show can even start to engage with these
types of ideas is, I think, itself something.
Like, yes, it could be more nuanced. There could
be, you know, if you had three or four hours
to explore this stuff, you could delve into it
with much more sort of political literacy and
detail. But the fact that it's just raising that...
It's saying words like genocide. Did they use
that word in this episode? I'm trying to remember.
I'm probably thinking about it because there
was a lot of use of the word in the UK Parliament
today. I think, yes. I think it was used. I think
so. I think so. I mean, that's definitely how
it's played. Even if the word isn't used, like
ethnic cleansing or genocide, that's what's...
or like exploitation to the point where it is
effectively that we're just stripping that planet
of resources and this was written a long time
ago because you know in political terms like
but all the stuff that's going on today like
I said like the day that we're recording this
uh you may be listening to it far in the future
but there was a lot of discussion about that
word genocide in the in the uk parliament it's
something that is really relevant and unfortunately
continues to be relevant over the last few decades
so yeah i think politically yeah could have been
more uh you could have had like a lot more detail
and nuance there, but I think it's a massive
thing that it even goes into that area and I
think does an okay job of it in the constraints
of this big flagship BBC One show. Okay, so what
else was going on? What else did you talk about?
Because you covered a lot of stuff at the start.
Oh, The Doctor as well. You said that was one
of the things that stood out to you about The
Doctor's turn. Yes. Yeah, I really like that.
And again, like I mentioned, Joy to the World
and that moment he has there. And I think we're
seeing a lot more of that this season. I feel
like, again, I think that we're feeling pretty
close to each other. I think we talked about
this before, but it feels like in season two,
or actually from Joy to the World onwards, that
this Doctor, you're seeing a lot more layers
to him and you're seeing a lot more depth beyond
that. super hyper happy exterior and that's still
there it's like with Peter Davison where you
see those layers to him where he's not just this
relentlessly pleasant friendly character there's
that that irritation and sharpness underneath
the surface and and I feel like we're sort of
getting far enough in to see those sorts of layers
to this doctor now and yeah I think they're really
interesting and just how far he goes like because
we've had moments where the Doctor has kind of
been pushed or gotten to that point with the
whole Time Lord Victorious arc and was it Solomon
in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship? That one stood out
quite a bit as well, where he was, was he deliberately
sending him to his death on that spaceship? Yes.
And, but this just. And I mean, if you look at
it literally, what he does to the family of blood
is much worse. That's like unending, eternal
torture and imprisonment. But he talks here about,
you know, hurting him like millions of times
for all of the people that he was threatening.
And the way it is played in the scene, it goes
on for a long time. It's not just like once or
twice to make the point of the doctor getting
to the point of violence. How many times is it?
Like four, five, six, seven? It's like he does
it again and again and again. And I thought it
was interesting. Belinda's reaction to it was
interesting as well because she comes in and
she's quite rightly shocked by it, but she doesn't
actually challenge him that much on it afterwards.
Maybe they don't get time before the TARDIS doors
blow in, but it's... What did you think of Belinda's
reaction to seeing how far the doctor had gone?
I was certainly expecting a conversation that
we never quite got. Yeah. There was the line
about, you know, you do scare me sometimes or
something like that, which felt like it was going
to go into it. You know, it felt like there was
another line that was going to come after that.
Like, you know, you can't do that again, doctor.
That was... that was too far, you're not, judge,
jury, execution. And we didn't get there. But
I can't immediately remember whether we didn't
get there because they were interrupted by Graham
Norton or whether we didn't get there because
it just wasn't going to happen. Yeah, I wanted
a bit more of that. I mean, like with Donna in
Runaway Bride, it's like a much more deliberate
moment of challenging him and shouting at him
to stop. Yeah. it doesn't have to be quite as
as dramatic as that but I wanted something afterwards
to and and it was a bit it was all a bit mixed
up with the fact that this was played as the
episode where Belinda is starting to have fun
and like you know chooses to to stay and and
I feel like there was an opportunity to do something
with that of like she's at that point of starting
to to like the doctor and to see how great he
is and then this could have like pulled the rug
out underneath of that, but it wasn't quite sort
of followed through in as clear a way as I wanted.
And it's kind of where this series felt as though
it was going at the start. Those first couple
of episodes, first few episodes, we really did
have quite a bit about the relationship between
these two characters. And it seems to have been,
it's not forgotten. It's still there. And we
do, you know, we are getting lights like you
scared me and that kind of thing, but. At the
start of the series, Ida expected this episode
to have a little bit more of a gut punch in relation
to these two characters. And yeah, you're right.
It just wasn't, it wasn't not there, but it wasn't
quite there. It's like we thought about it and
then that was enough. Yeah. And it's like you
were saying last week, I think, that we've only
got so much time with Belinda. and we're into
finale territory now so again worry slightly
that it's a missed opportunity to to give her
story a bit more more weight i really like the
performance and the character i i feel like more
interested and engaged in the character um and
not criticism really gives them but just like
i feel like belinda's got more interesting stuff
to her in terms of the character But, yeah, I'm
seeing these sort of missed opportunities to
go a bit further with her as well. Yeah, and
I'm hoping that they... I'm hoping that there's
a moment in the finale to kind of pause and,
you know, discuss this kind of thing. I hope
it's not just a case of, you know, at the end
of the finale, OK, Belinda, we've got you home
now, that's what you wanted, see you, bye, and
then that'd be it. There needs to be some conclusion
to this that isn't just, okay, Belinda's home
now. But that list of things to wrap up that
we talked about last week, that's just gotten
longer because now we have two Ronnies. Is Kid
potentially coming back? That seems to be the
way it was played, unless that's for a future
series. Yeah, I get that that might be more of
a... this villain will return. Think Cassandra
and that kind of thing. Possibly. But then Russell
T Davies has also said that this unholy trinity
that's being referred to, the Rani only counts
as one of that trinity. Yes, they're still both
the Rani. Because I was joking about the Rani
in a previous episode. I had no idea she was
real. really going to appear but then she turned
out to be real so now I'm worried that Omega
is going to turn up next week with zero introduction
and two seconds of a classic episode as a flashback
as if that helps people understand who he is
if they haven't seen all his previous TV stories
And I'll be honest, I really don't think Arkham
Infinity can be saved by a 75 -minute edit with
a bit of CGI thrown in. Then again, can Time
and the Rani? Oh my God, are we getting Time
and the Rani? Well, Time and the Rani had some
of, for the time, really impressive special effects.
I don't think it needs... I guess you could cut
it down, but... Yeah. Maybe Mark of the Rani.
You could probably shave out the entirety of
the second episode of Time of the Rani and not
lose too much. Yeah. So maybe that could make
a Tales of the TARDIS episode. I don't know.
I like to think they'll do that again. I like
to think they will go, okay, let's watch Mark
of the Rani, Time of the Rani. If it is Omega,
let's watch. Three Doctors and Ark of Infinity,
if we have to. Was the last year's Pyramids of
Mars, Tales of the TARDIS, was that announced
beforehand? I think Tales of the TARDIS was announced,
but I didn't think we knew what it was going
to be, because I think there was speculation
that it was going to be basically a clip show
of the series so far. And then SUTEC came back
and immediately we all went, oh, right, it's
Pyramid to Mars then. And then they announced
it pretty quickly after that, that it was going
to be, I think. But we don't have any slot for
a new episode of Tales of the TARDIS announced
at the moment. And I think we'd know by now.
I don't know how far in advance they announced
that. Then again, it doesn't necessarily need
to be announced. It doesn't need to be broadcast.
It can just go on iPlayer without any warning.
Yeah. Like Pyramids had a BBC 4 broadcast, didn't
it? Yeah, I think it did, yeah. I think that
was around that time there was like something
on BBC 1, 2 and 4. I don't know about 3, but
yeah, like with the War Games, there was like
basically something new -ish Doctor Who on multiple
BBC channels. Yeah. That sounds about right.
Just going back to the point you were making
about sort of politics before, and it kind of
makes me laugh that some people are saying it
didn't go into the politics enough because all
I've heard for the best part of a decade now
is there's too much politics in Doctor Who. And
then the moment an episode sort of doesn't really
go into the politics, oh, well, that wasn't political
enough. Oh, I think it might be. Enough politics.
I think the reason for that might be is that
criticism is coming from a different direction.
So it's not like the sort of Conrads and right
-wing grifters. It's actually more like some
sort of left -leaning people who are saying this
oversimplified some really important stuff and
it should have... Yeah, we could have done something
with that. Yeah. I agree. But yeah, it just shows
that... not everyone is always going to be happy
and i think there are too many people who seem
to think that they should be the person that
happy you know the i've watched this show for
45 50 whatever years crowd and therefore i know
exactly what it should be like slight warning
for i think they're like officially released
production stills but there's there's stuff coming
out about the finale that's making me increasingly
think that it's going to go in that direction
the fact that we've got Conrad set up as sort
of representing that type of person who would
be at the sort of more toxic end of Doctor Who
fandom if he wasn't pushing you know political
conspiracies and then you've got a production
still of him holding a Doctor Who book so and
we've had fans brought up like sort of less toxic
kind in in Lux I wonder if it is going to get
into that, this thing of not just Doctor Who
is fictional, but turning the mirror on fans
and the audience, which stuff like Love and Monsters
and other things have done in the past, but I
wonder if that's going to be the big thing about
the finale. It's going to be interesting to see
how Conrad fits into this. I know it's like an
unholy trinity and all that kind of thing, but...
The Rani working with a right -wing podcaster.
And we're told that... I've seen it mentioned
that this isn't just character, this is the Rani,
this is an experiment, there's something very
Rani -ish going on here. Yeah, I'm kind of curious
as to how Conrad fits into all of it. What's
called the reality... No, the penultimate is
Wishworld and then the final is the reality war.
Conrad had that line about denying the Doctor's
reality. Is there something about the Rani's
experiment allowing her to manipulate reality
and rewrite the Doctor's history to... And maybe
that's where this ice in his heart thing is coming
from. It's like that's the first bits of... This
sounds like exactly her plan from time in the
Rani. Like, the third member of the Unholy Trinity
is a gigantic brain. I'm calling it now. You
heard it here first, and probably last. So yeah,
maybe the... Oh, or maybe it's the Valiant. Maybe
the Doctor is the third member, and Conrad's
going to turn the Doctor into the Valiant. You
see, if it was Moffat, that would definitely
be it. The Doctor would be the extra bit of evil.
That's very Moffat -y, but I'm not sure Russell
T. Davis would do that. Interesting. I think
it's going to be something Pantheon -y, or Omega's
in control of all the gods now. We'll get a clip
from the three Doctors where he goes, I should
have been a god. Yeah, and in extended media,
Omega's been... much more treated as a god or
god figure, like the novels and, I think, audios
as well. But there's also the Master, whose gold
tooth was trapped inside the Toymaker's tooth,
and that's never come back. So are they going
to pop up? Yeah, and I've always taken that as
a thing that's just going to be used when. when
they need it to. Like, there you go, the master,
there's an easy way to bring him back if we need
it. Yeah. We'll see. So we've kind of touched
on this, or, you know, the next point of discussion
was going to be the doctor in this episode and
him, you know, him going a bit evil. Well, not
evil, a bit dark, a bit sinister. And we've kind
of covered that, you know, it's what he does.
But it's interesting that the thing that pulls
him back is visions of Susan. Caroline Ford's
back. This is proper Susan. We've not regenerated
Susan. We've not. And I honestly do not believe
that this is the last we've seen of her. There's
no way you bring her back for the sake of those
few little appearances that don't really quite
make all that much sense. So where do we think
the Susan thing is going? I don't know, but yeah,
I agree she's coming back. And again, in Unleashed,
she was wearing what looked like a different
costume from the ones in the shots that we saw,
and I think it would not be a surprise if she's
back. So Susan was the one who definitely snapped
him out of that moment where he was about to
be frozen. But I'm just thinking about how it
played out towards the end of the episode, because
didn't he ignore her when she was saying, she
was telling him to stop. I feel like it was something
else that actually made him stop in the end.
I think it took her a few times telling him to
stop, but eventually he did. Yeah. And it's,
it's, I don't know, maybe she's going to have
some role in, like, rather than it being just
like happy reunion, she's going to be back and
it's going to be her stopping the doctor. Or
it's going to be that just her in person is the
thing that pulls him back from the edge. You'd
certainly hope. Yeah. I'm curious as to how all
of this fits together. Yeah, I've got no idea.
Yeah, it feels like we've just got a lot of pieces
on the board randomly at this point. Like the
Doctor and Belinda are on the board, Earth's
Been Destroyed is on the board, the Rani, both
Ranis are on the board, Conrad's on the board,
Ruby's on the board, Unit's on the board, Mel's
on the board, Susan's on the board. How do these
pieces play together? What's it all going to?
It kind of feels like where we're up to with...
Avengers Doomsday at the moment where we've got
a lot of chairs with names on the back and no
context and yeah I'm just okay all of this is
going to be in the finale there's a lot to fit
a hell of a lot to fit in yeah I think that's
a good comparison but like even more so with
this finale because with Doomsday yeah they'll
do some heavy adaptation but we've got the original
comic stories to get a sense of how it will play
out and how all those characters will form into
teams and come up against dr doom but yeah with
this finale i've got no and again it's like we're
saying about before about the second half of
this season it's it's quite nice to go in not
knowing how it's all going to play out um because
like with in season one we just had fewer elements
and it was like the stuff about Ruby on one side
and then Sutec as this late in the day reveal
and those two things were tied together just
about I can't see all these dozen different things
you listed how they're all going to be wrapped
up in a neat little package but we do know they're
all there yeah And there's other stuff as well,
like we know that Susan Twist's in it, Susan
Triad character's in it. Oh, yeah. Well, they
announced she was coming back and she's not been
in it so far, so that's what I'm getting. Yeah,
the more I think about it, the more I sort of
go, hang on, that's in there as well, isn't it?
Oh, we know we've got Poppy from Space Babies
as well. Yeah, that's a big one as well. Yeah,
the more I think about this, the more there is
going to be in the next two weeks. And actually,
we know nothing about the plot. We just know
a lineup of what's in it. Very curious sort of
how any of this is going to fit together. What
was the Rani's line? Let battle commence. Yes.
That doesn't really... Like with who? So this
is the other thing. Mrs. Flood has this complete
switch of being really meek and subservient after
the bi -generation. I don't buy that at all because
you think back to the way that she was talking
when she was with Cherry and when they were dusted.
Yeah. So when the David Tennant's 14th Doctor
by generated he doesn't become a different character
it's played as it's a split and he is the same
regeneration splitting off to the side so if
it's the same logic with mrs flood she's not
going to go from someone who's talking like she
can go up against gods to then just being this
really meek person i think there's a lot of like
sort of barely hidden disdain or superiority
and she's just playing the new Rani or giving
her the sense that she's this meek person? Yes,
I get the same impression. And that leaves the
option open of is the Mrs. Flood regeneration
of the Rani actually on the Doctor's side? Because
there was hints of that with previous Mrs. Flood
stuff. The way she would say... Was it the same
episode when they get de -dusted? She talks about
the Doctor being that clever boy or something.
Yeah, because everyone started going, oh, it's
Clara. Yeah, and that's not the way that the
Rani in her traditional camp evil persona would
talk about the Doctor. So maybe this is like
an aberration. regeneration of the Rani where
it's like Missy and like she's she heals yeah
and yeah yeah so I feel like there could be something
really interesting going on with her which I
hope there is because I hope we get more of Anita
Dobson beyond just like following the new Rani
around who looks really great as well but I hope
Anita Dobson doesn't get too sidelined which
is a risk with this these dozen different plot
elements again to link up. At this point, I do
sort of wonder if we're going into a Doctor Light
episode again. Maybe not like completely Doctor
Light, but I'm thinking The Stolen Earth, how
it takes the Doctor the whole episode to actually
get to where everything's going on. And it's
sort of a bit more led by Unit. Torch Wooden,
Sarah Jane. I kind of wonder if maybe that's...
We're going to get that as a first episode, you
know, the Doctor trying to get to Earth and maybe
Unit are leading things a little bit and, you
know, by the time the Doctor gets to Earth, everything's
already gone dreadful. Oh, yes, Unit as well.
Like, yeah, are we going to have space here for...
more set up of the spin -off? Or is that just
going to be its own thing and kind of not have
too much of a hard link into the main show? Or
at least a continuation of where Lucky Day left
off. Yeah, because I think things were said by
the writer or Russell T Davies about that having
important links to the spin -off, like the public
reaction to Unit. Yeah, so maybe there's a little
bit more of a look at that. Hard to say, but
I do like where it's all going. I just hope it
can stick the landing. And I did find that last
year's finale, I really liked the first part.
I thought it really built up suspense. We had
the whole extended sequence in the time window.
Yeah, that was good, yeah. It built up and it
built up and it built up and it was really tense
and I just don't think we're going to have time
for that this time because there's just so much
there. The majority of that episode was trying
to figure out who Ruby's mum was. That was a
very, very big chunk of that episode. We kind
of had Mel doing a bit of undercover stuff as
well, but essentially... Yeah, and we're not
going to get that this time. We're not going
to have time for that big build -up if everything
that we've just listed is all going to get a
decent sort of slice of the cake. Again, I sound
like I'm going into this finale really negative.
I'm not. I think it's great that all of these
things are sort of together. We kind of know
what the ingredients are, but not what the final
dish is. And we know that Russell T. Davis can
handle a finale where there are a lot of characters
that need serving. Like, we've done that. We
had it with Stolen Earth and Journey's End. And
if this ends up being half as good as Stolen
Earth and Journey's End, we're up for a pretty
good finale. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really curious.
I'm sort of very cautious about... all of this
being wrapped up in a satisfied way, but also
really fascinated as to what it will look like.
Yeah, it's that how for me, like how is this
all, how does it all fit together? Because it
just feels like a lot of random pieces at the
moment. Yeah. Which is good, you know, we're
sat here talking about it, speculating, so that's,
it's kind of done its thing. It's the old playground
discussion analogy, isn't it? And that kind of
thing. So it has done its job. It's got us talking
about what it's supposed to have us talking about.
But really, I'm really enjoying going into a
Doctor Who finale with absolutely no idea where
it's going. And this could be the first time.
This could genuinely be the first finale where
I've not really known. what's coming at all you
know everything else we've had leaks we've had
spoilers we've had set reports we've had you
know we've been told stuff we've had stuff going
into this time there's it's nothing like i'd
struggle to even tell you where it was set like
i assume earth on the day that earth gets destroyed
like that's that's the best guess but We don't
know how it gets destroyed, who destroys it,
why it gets destroyed, how it links to any of
the things that we listed before. So the one
thing we haven't talked about much is the music
in this episode. Yes, I was hoping to avoid that.
I thought it was pretty authentic. Yeah. Picking
the sort of major types of Eurovision song, it
felt very authentic to that. I'd be curious to,
because we didn't get them all play out in full,
if they do a sort of mini soundtrack release
like they did with the Goblin song single, I'd
be curious to hear them in full. But you weren't
impressed, it sounds like. You just want that
full version of Dugadoo, don't you? I mean, you
and the majority of other people I've spoken
to about this episode over the last few days.
I like the first one as well, the one just before
everyone gets sucked off. Yeah, that sounded
good. And yeah, just be curious to hear them
play out in full. Like I preferred this to, there's
always a twist at the end. Yes, absolutely. No,
no, you're absolutely right. The music was entirely
sort of authentic to the different kind of styles
and songs you get at Eurovision. It totally was.
It was very, very well done. There was certainly
a better understanding of, Eurovision than The
Devil's Chord had of The Beatles. That kind of
thing. Again, it's not particularly my genre
of music. I'll sit and watch Eurovision and have
one too many to drink and a bit of a laugh with
it like everybody else, but I'm never going to
be the person sat there going, I'm actually going
to get this song and listen to it normally. Do
people do that? Is that a thing? Are people doing
Eurovision soundtracks? Yeah, I think they definitely
do full Eurovision CD soundtracks. They used
to do them. There'll be digital ones now. I'll
never forget when Sam Ryder with Spaceman, which
did quite well, obviously. UK entry did quite
well. I'll never forget the massive mistake he
made when it came to titling his album. Because
it was, there's nothing but spaceman. Which,
it's not what you meant, is it, Sam? But the
reviewers picked up on it. But yeah, it's, yeah,
it was, like you say, it was perfectly authentic.
It genuinely felt like this is what Eurovision
is going to be if it still exists in. many, many,
many years' time. Considering most New Doctor
Who has been broadcast on the same evening, well,
most series have had an episode broadcast on
the same evening as Eurovision, I should say.
I'm amazed they've not done this before. It's
such an obvious thing to do when you think about
it. But in the same way... I'm kind of glad that
it's happened now because this episode would
not have looked as good five years ago, let alone
1520. Yeah, definitely. This was another one
where we saw the Disney budget. I feel the need
to put a little TM next to it every time I say
Disney budget. But yeah, this is another episode
where we definitely saw that Disney budget doing
its thing. This is how Doctor Who should look.
Yeah, like I said, that sequence near the start,
like really early on, that was one of the most
impressive, but just generally throughout, like
all the visuals outside the space station, all
of that was really impressive. Yeah, it was great.
So is there anything else you want to add or
discuss or anything like that at all? Yeah, we
talked a lot about what this is setting up for
the finale. Belinda, the Doctor, the villain
themselves. And again, coming back to the fact
that if you had lots more time, you could flesh
things out. I thought he was in between Conrad
and the guy from Robot Revolution in terms of
depth and complexity. I feel like Robot Revolution
guy is towards the bottom. Conrad's the most
interesting and layered. And then this guy is
sort of sitting in the middle where he's got
some sort of charisma and depth to him, but it
still is a bit, he doesn't really go on any sort
of journey. And maybe that's the point of his
character. He's kind of already been on the journey
at the start. And what goes on in this episode
are the actions following that. But yeah, you're
right. There was never any kind of moment of
regret. Like the episode ended with him in exactly
the same place as it started, which he kind of
did with Conrad. But I think Conrad, you can
look at Conrad and you can see. a real person
we see these people in the media at the time
you know you can yeah he's got the messiness
yeah like he's got the messiness to him as well
of like is he is he actually does he actually
believe this or is he just a grifter and it's
played with enough complexity that you could
read it either way at times yeah um but comrade
is not a pleasant one but very much human yeah
yeah and it's whereas Yeah, the villain in this,
I've actually forgotten his name. Kid. Kid, yeah.
Yeah. Automatically, Kid wasn't a human and therefore
lost all of those links to real people and real
situations and real personas. It lost all of
that. While where Kid was coming from was definitely
a similar place to. where a lot of humans are
um you did sort of lose a level of character
complexity there because we're we were only told
quite briefly actually about what happened to
the home world and there's hints about how the
race is persecuted but again there's no real
it doesn't go into it at all it's it's it's sort
of there but like again like the belinda confrontation
it's there but like could have been made more
because isn't there a line about where his name
comes from that it's not because of a baby goat
it's because he was his parents were killed or
he was taken away from his parents before he
was named or something so there's little like
if you look closely there are those very sort
of dark hints and layers there but actually his
accomplice was the one who I think had a bit
more depth to her in a sense that in the sense
that she seemed conflicted certainly more conflicted
yeah like she she went on a bit of a journey
but still kind of ended up in the same place
yeah nevertheless um yeah it's definitely one
of those episodes where the doctor's presence
did actively make everything better You know,
it's very easy for the Doctor to not actually
have that much impact on what's going on, whereas
on this one, everybody would have been screwed
without the Doctor. Yeah. So, yeah. But, yeah,
no, you're right. There just wasn't quite...
We did need that little bit more. There wasn't
quite that Conrad level of... But, you know,
Lucky Day had... It did take time to explore
Comrade and it did explore him on a very human
level and he didn't particularly interact with
the Doctor much. It was Ruby, another human character
who we have spent a lot of time with. That was
kind of his main point of contact for the audience.
Yeah, but definitely not a bad villain, definitely
not a forgettable villain. definitely a villain
we have seen in Doctor Who quite a lot before,
I think. But yeah, you know, the motivation was
there. We know what it was. You can kind of look
at it and go, yeah, see, I can see how he's got
there. He just didn't really go anywhere throughout
the course of the episode. And like the Disney
money stuff, this is where like the new budget
lines up with the storytelling maybe, because
yes, we've seen characters like him in Doctor
Who loads of times, but we've never seen. their
actions or the impact of their actions play out
in, I think, quite as much sort of quite horrific
detail, like all those people seemingly being
killed. You don't see that sort of killing on
that scale in most Doctor Who? No, absolutely
not. I did kind of wonder, when it happened,
I kind of wondered, okay, you know, is the Doctor
going to be the only survivor here? You know,
is this going to be a, have we just watched the
biggest death count in all Doctor Who ever? Which,
you know, we've had the suggestion of mass death
in Doctor Who. You know, think back to parting
of the ways where the Daleks bombed the Earth
and literally reshaped continents. Yeah, but
that's from space. Yeah, all you saw was a little
computer graphic of continents changing shape.
Exactly, yeah. But no, it would have been pretty
massive to have just left it. I noticed the line
of dialogue, they're all alive, went in pretty
quickly. There was obviously the immediate tension
when you saw everybody lift up. Yeah. It was
the very next scene where we go, oh, they are
still alive, by the way, guys. It's okay. Which
I think is okay. Again, it's like a show aimed
at the whole family. You don't want little kids
to feel that hundreds, thousands of people have
been slaughtered and just leave them with that
for half the episode. If it was Big Finish, it
would be right at the end. Oh, by the way, there's
still a gravity bubble. Everyone's okay. And
if it was the New Adventures, billions of people
would just stay dead and that would just be part
of the Doctor's character now. If it was New
Adventures, Kit would have succeeded and the
Doctor would have let it happen because maybe
he was right. I don't know. All right. Well,
I think... I think we've covered it. I think
we've got it there. It was a great episode. It
is a great series. I'm really looking forward
to talking about the next two episodes because
I have no idea at this point what it is we're
going to be talking about. And that's quite exciting.
So Doctor Who's got me excited. I think it has
this whole series, to be honest. I'm invested.
I'm wanting to watch it. You know, watching it
at 8 o 'clock when possible. That kind of thing.
As I said at the start, this is the first one
where I've kind of gone, yeah, I want to watch
this as quickly as possible. Everything else
I've kind of watched when I can. Always on the
Saturday, of course. But this is the one where
I've kind of gone, yeah, I need to watch this
now. And I think that's how I'm going to feel
on this coming Saturday as well. And Saturday
after that, it's going to have to be seven o
'clock. Yeah, I've booked it for the cinema and
I don't think it's feasible to try and avoid
spoilers for Wishworld. So I think it will have
to be at 8am viewing for Wishworld and then re
-watch it in the cinema. It feels insane to try
and avoid for the whole week. Well, I also need
you to watch Wishworld straight away so we can
talk about it. It would be really interesting
trying to talk about an episode with you that
you'd not seen without spoiling it, which is
not a challenge. I think we should try sometime.
Yeah. Right. Well, we shall leave it there, but
thanks as ever for joining me, Mansoor. It's
been really good discussing this. Yeah, my pleasure.
And yeah, we'll be back to talk about Wishworld
next week when hopefully we'll... we'll know
what we're talking about. We'll have something
to talk about. And hopefully some of the speculation
that we've kind of suggested here will be proved
to be right or wrong. We're going to be talking
about Omega next week, aren't we? Like we actually
are. Yeah, we'll see. Well, thanks very much
for listening, everybody. And we will be back
for more Spodcasting soon. Goodbye now.