WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.140 You're listening to a podcast of Spurious Morality. 00:00:03.459 --> 00:00:05.759 Only now am I thinking we should have done some 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:08.779 kind of intergalactic song contest related intro 00:00:08.779 --> 00:00:14.400 to this one. Where's Connor? I bet he does a 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:20.260 good Ryland impression. No, let's not inflate 00:00:20.260 --> 00:00:24.000 that upon the world. Hello and welcome to the 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:28.739 803rd episode of a podcast of Spurious Morality. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.619 We should have arranged the whole podcast so 00:00:32.619 --> 00:00:35.700 that this was the 803rd episode. Yeah. A bit 00:00:35.700 --> 00:00:38.500 of an oversight. We should have recorded another 00:00:38.500 --> 00:00:43.820 sort of 670 -something episodes in the last week 00:00:43.820 --> 00:00:47.000 just to get ourselves there. Yeah, we've slipped 00:00:47.000 --> 00:01:46.700 up there. Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious 00:01:46.700 --> 00:01:49.219 morality. I'm Johnston and with me again this 00:01:49.219 --> 00:01:53.659 week I have Mansour. Hello. Hello. And we're 00:01:53.659 --> 00:01:58.040 carrying on looking at the latest new current 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.000 series of Doctor Who. And the most recent episode 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:05.400 is the Intergalactic Song Contest. And I think 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:08.879 expectations were quite high for this one. It 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:11.520 was obviously a bit of a high budget episode. 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:15.460 you know, a writer that has done some Doctor 00:02:15.460 --> 00:02:18.280 Who stuff before but hasn't made it onto telly 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:23.780 yet. And we were teased, Russell T. Davis teased 00:02:23.780 --> 00:02:25.479 that you really want to watch this one as quickly 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:30.120 as possible so you don't get spoiled. And I think 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:35.620 he was very, very right about that. This is the 00:02:35.620 --> 00:02:38.180 first one this series where I have kind of gone, 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:41.159 yeah, I need to watch this as soon as possible 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:43.919 and kind of got to... Got to it on iPlayer as 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:46.639 quickly as I can. And I'm glad I did because 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:52.800 I managed to get through to it without at least 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:55.599 one thing being spoiled. I did kind of see the 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:57.680 other spoiled on Facebook. It's my own fault 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:02.419 for logging onto Facebook. But yeah, I think 00:03:02.419 --> 00:03:06.659 this one justified the hype. I think that we've 00:03:06.659 --> 00:03:09.849 actually got an episode that... Was built up 00:03:09.849 --> 00:03:12.870 beforehand. A lot of people were kind of expecting 00:03:12.870 --> 00:03:15.550 an awful lot from it. And I think it delivered. 00:03:16.870 --> 00:03:19.110 This is going to be a very spoilery chat. I've 00:03:19.110 --> 00:03:20.870 not done spoiler warnings for a while, but I 00:03:20.870 --> 00:03:22.909 kind of feel as though we should do one for this 00:03:22.909 --> 00:03:24.650 one. Like you're listening to a podcast episode 00:03:24.650 --> 00:03:28.330 about the Intergalactic Song Contest. I'm hoping 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:30.509 you've seen it by this point, but this is going 00:03:30.509 --> 00:03:33.310 to spoil a lot. Because we've got two big, big, 00:03:33.330 --> 00:03:35.150 big things. We've got a lot of little things, 00:03:35.229 --> 00:03:38.710 but we've got two huge things. One of those things 00:03:38.710 --> 00:03:42.949 was obviously the on -screen return of Susan, 00:03:43.169 --> 00:03:47.889 who I think we're going to see more from. She 00:03:47.889 --> 00:03:49.930 kind of appeared, she said a few lines and then 00:03:49.930 --> 00:03:52.449 she disappeared. I hope that there's more to 00:03:52.449 --> 00:03:56.349 Susan's first proper appearance in the series 00:03:56.349 --> 00:04:01.330 since The Five Doctors to that. And we also found 00:04:01.330 --> 00:04:05.770 out that Mrs. Flood is the Rani and bi -generated 00:04:05.770 --> 00:04:09.009 into another Rani. So now we have two Ranis. 00:04:09.150 --> 00:04:12.349 And I can't believe neither of the next two episodes 00:04:12.349 --> 00:04:17.449 are not having their names changed to the two 00:04:17.449 --> 00:04:20.949 Ranis. Why would you not? Surely it's so tempting. 00:04:23.390 --> 00:04:25.550 It's very easy to just sort of dig into these 00:04:25.550 --> 00:04:27.250 things that I've mentioned. It's very easy to 00:04:27.250 --> 00:04:28.769 just kind of go, oh, it's the one where Susan 00:04:28.769 --> 00:04:31.870 comes back and it's got two Ronnies at the end. 00:04:32.110 --> 00:04:34.410 But actually there's the episode itself, which 00:04:34.410 --> 00:04:38.370 was sort of in some ways like standard political 00:04:38.370 --> 00:04:41.449 Doctor Who fare, but in other ways it was really, 00:04:41.490 --> 00:04:43.970 really well done. It was a really engaging story. 00:04:44.370 --> 00:04:47.149 It was, you know, we had a good villain, a really 00:04:47.149 --> 00:04:49.389 well played villain, bit of a tragic villain, 00:04:49.490 --> 00:04:52.980 you know. They were sort of in their own heads. 00:04:53.060 --> 00:04:54.639 They were freedom fighters. They were getting 00:04:54.639 --> 00:05:00.120 revenge. They were making a point. The idea that 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:02.800 the Eurovision Song Contest carries on to be 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:04.839 this big intergalactic affair with trillions 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:08.180 of viewers, I thought was brilliant. Ryland, 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:11.420 as himself, was a great bit of casting. The surprise 00:05:11.420 --> 00:05:14.720 cameo from Graham Norton was brilliant. It wasn't 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:16.319 a surprise, actually. We were told about it. 00:05:16.459 --> 00:05:18.720 But the cameo from Graham Norton was brilliant. 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.259 You know, him being the one that tells the Doctor 00:05:22.259 --> 00:05:25.839 that Earth was destroyed on the 24th of May or 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:30.939 whenever it is. That was great. And everything 00:05:30.939 --> 00:05:33.860 fit together. Like, even talking about this episode 00:05:33.860 --> 00:05:36.800 now, it feels like I'm just kind of emptying 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:38.879 a kitchen sink and then throwing the kitchen 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.120 sink in as well. But actually, it all gelled 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:44.220 together really nicely. It was a really good, 00:05:44.300 --> 00:05:48.629 really fun episode. I think the bit that's maybe 00:05:48.629 --> 00:05:51.110 not getting the amount of discussion that it 00:05:51.110 --> 00:05:55.269 deserves is the fact that the Doctor went pretty 00:05:55.269 --> 00:05:57.750 dark in this one. Like, this is the most sinister 00:05:57.750 --> 00:06:00.810 we've seen this Doctor. I'd say it's the most 00:06:00.810 --> 00:06:03.550 sinister we've seen a Doctor behave probably 00:06:03.550 --> 00:06:06.110 since Peter Capaldi when he was running around 00:06:06.110 --> 00:06:10.889 shooting Time Lords. Really, really good. Like, 00:06:10.970 --> 00:06:15.050 Shooty got a couple of sinister moments and... 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:17.680 They were good sinister moments. They were well 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:19.680 -written sinister moments, really well -performed 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.720 sinister moments. And I like just getting the 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:26.860 odd reminder that the Doctor can go a bit dark 00:06:26.860 --> 00:06:29.379 and the whole, you know, there's ice in my heart 00:06:29.379 --> 00:06:32.879 now speech was absolutely brilliant. Really felt 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:38.079 like we got, it felt slightly like this Doctor's 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:40.759 sort of Zygon inversion moment, you know, that 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.220 moment, I think I mentioned it last week, actually, 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:47.459 when we suddenly got, This absolutely out of 00:06:47.459 --> 00:06:49.519 this world, this is what this actor is capable 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:52.220 of performance at Capaldi. I feel like we've 00:06:52.220 --> 00:06:54.259 now got that with Shooty, which is just great. 00:06:55.699 --> 00:06:58.540 So I was a really big fan of this one. And I'm 00:06:58.540 --> 00:07:01.240 actually now at a stage where I've seen some 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.560 of the people kind of ranking the episodes of 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:08.579 this season, you know, putting this one certainly 00:07:08.579 --> 00:07:12.310 very close to the top, if not at the top. I can't 00:07:12.310 --> 00:07:14.910 do it. I think any of the last, certainly the 00:07:14.910 --> 00:07:18.589 last three episodes are potentially the best 00:07:18.589 --> 00:07:21.829 episode of this series. It's just so good. Like 00:07:21.829 --> 00:07:25.170 the quality we're getting this year is, it's 00:07:25.170 --> 00:07:27.389 some of the best, some of the consistent, most 00:07:27.389 --> 00:07:29.889 consistently brilliant Doctor Who we've had for 00:07:29.889 --> 00:07:34.990 quite a long time. I'm really enjoying it. What 00:07:34.990 --> 00:07:37.189 about you, Mansour? Where were you sort of on 00:07:37.189 --> 00:07:40.589 this episode? this series as a whole so far i 00:07:40.589 --> 00:07:43.589 guess because that's where i went with that um 00:07:43.589 --> 00:07:48.089 the the it's interesting because i probably feel 00:07:48.089 --> 00:07:52.029 quite similar to you with all the stuff you mentioned 00:07:52.029 --> 00:07:55.089 but i've seen very mixed reactions to this episode 00:07:55.089 --> 00:07:57.870 there are some people calling it i could do the 00:07:57.870 --> 00:07:59.750 gym just with like you know youtube reviews popping 00:07:59.750 --> 00:08:02.329 up in the last few days i've seen some people 00:08:02.329 --> 00:08:05.430 calling it okay and some people calling it like 00:08:05.430 --> 00:08:09.680 the worst episode of the season or this or this 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:14.980 era um but yeah it's definitely towards the the 00:08:14.980 --> 00:08:19.420 top for me um like really good spectacle i think 00:08:19.420 --> 00:08:22.100 that was another part of the expectation that 00:08:22.100 --> 00:08:25.139 was built up by the whole sequence of uh the 00:08:25.139 --> 00:08:30.240 audience being um sucked off into space uh and 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:32.559 at that point you don't know that they're going 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:37.769 to be preserved or or put into um uh like like 00:08:37.769 --> 00:08:39.350 stasis because you don't know anything about 00:08:39.350 --> 00:08:42.990 that field the way it's played is that those 00:08:42.990 --> 00:08:45.750 hundreds of thousands of people are just being 00:08:45.750 --> 00:08:51.649 slaughtered immediately in this huge um incident 00:08:51.649 --> 00:08:55.769 uh so yeah just like so the impact of that and 00:08:55.769 --> 00:08:57.730 just the visuals of that sequence were really 00:08:57.730 --> 00:09:02.610 striking um like a lot of things it's there's 00:09:02.610 --> 00:09:06.349 like elements that feel very familiar from rtd1 00:09:06.349 --> 00:09:09.850 like uh you know meeting those side characters 00:09:09.850 --> 00:09:13.970 who conveniently play uh or conveniently have 00:09:13.970 --> 00:09:17.330 the skills to rise above just being a sort of 00:09:17.330 --> 00:09:19.610 standard ordinary person and being really vital 00:09:19.610 --> 00:09:23.549 to the to the plot um that that was all that 00:09:23.549 --> 00:09:28.230 was all great uh oh you mentioned the the uh 00:09:28.230 --> 00:09:32.009 politics of it as well i think and um that that's 00:09:32.009 --> 00:09:33.730 one of the things that i've seen people criticize 00:09:33.730 --> 00:09:39.720 it for as much as praise it for, with a lot of 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.679 people saying that it was an oversimplification 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:49.659 or a ham -fisted handling of politics and a bit 00:09:49.659 --> 00:09:52.820 black and white and the resolution was too neat. 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:57.919 And I can see all those things, but it's like 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:00.299 when people are making all these comparisons. 00:10:01.849 --> 00:10:05.870 between like lucky day and adolescence and there 00:10:05.870 --> 00:10:07.750 are some interesting comparisons to be drawn 00:10:07.750 --> 00:10:13.929 but like one of these is a is a is a major bbc 00:10:13.929 --> 00:10:17.149 one show aimed at the whole family and one of 00:10:17.149 --> 00:10:20.110 them is a is a netflix drama that is a bit you 00:10:20.110 --> 00:10:21.850 know a bit more niche has gotten a lot of attention 00:10:21.850 --> 00:10:23.929 but is definitely more niche and is something 00:10:23.929 --> 00:10:26.590 that will have a much more selective audience 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:29.799 The fact that Doctor Who has this big mainstream 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:32.980 flagship show can even start to engage with these 00:10:32.980 --> 00:10:37.019 types of ideas is, I think, itself something. 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:40.159 Like, yes, it could be more nuanced. There could 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:43.379 be, you know, if you had three or four hours 00:10:43.379 --> 00:10:45.480 to explore this stuff, you could delve into it 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.720 with much more sort of political literacy and 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:53.580 detail. But the fact that it's just raising that... 00:10:53.950 --> 00:10:58.330 It's saying words like genocide. Did they use 00:10:58.330 --> 00:11:01.210 that word in this episode? I'm trying to remember. 00:11:01.889 --> 00:11:03.490 I'm probably thinking about it because there 00:11:03.490 --> 00:11:06.549 was a lot of use of the word in the UK Parliament 00:11:06.549 --> 00:11:14.129 today. I think, yes. I think it was used. I think 00:11:14.129 --> 00:11:16.409 so. I think so. I mean, that's definitely how 00:11:16.409 --> 00:11:18.990 it's played. Even if the word isn't used, like 00:11:18.990 --> 00:11:22.929 ethnic cleansing or genocide, that's what's... 00:11:24.500 --> 00:11:29.080 or like exploitation to the point where it is 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:32.440 effectively that we're just stripping that planet 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:37.139 of resources and this was written a long time 00:11:37.139 --> 00:11:40.299 ago because you know in political terms like 00:11:40.299 --> 00:11:43.779 but all the stuff that's going on today like 00:11:43.779 --> 00:11:48.289 I said like the day that we're recording this 00:11:48.289 --> 00:11:50.769 uh you may be listening to it far in the future 00:11:50.769 --> 00:11:53.370 but there was a lot of discussion about that 00:11:53.370 --> 00:11:55.870 word genocide in the in the uk parliament it's 00:11:55.870 --> 00:11:59.129 something that is really relevant and unfortunately 00:11:59.129 --> 00:12:02.009 continues to be relevant over the last few decades 00:12:02.009 --> 00:12:07.269 so yeah i think politically yeah could have been 00:12:07.269 --> 00:12:13.379 more uh you could have had like a lot more detail 00:12:13.379 --> 00:12:15.840 and nuance there, but I think it's a massive 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.820 thing that it even goes into that area and I 00:12:19.820 --> 00:12:23.600 think does an okay job of it in the constraints 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:30.259 of this big flagship BBC One show. Okay, so what 00:12:30.259 --> 00:12:32.480 else was going on? What else did you talk about? 00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:34.559 Because you covered a lot of stuff at the start. 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.799 Oh, The Doctor as well. You said that was one 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:41.259 of the things that stood out to you about The 00:12:41.259 --> 00:12:46.149 Doctor's turn. Yes. Yeah, I really like that. 00:12:46.210 --> 00:12:48.309 And again, like I mentioned, Joy to the World 00:12:48.309 --> 00:12:51.169 and that moment he has there. And I think we're 00:12:51.169 --> 00:12:53.570 seeing a lot more of that this season. I feel 00:12:53.570 --> 00:12:56.429 like, again, I think that we're feeling pretty 00:12:56.429 --> 00:12:58.610 close to each other. I think we talked about 00:12:58.610 --> 00:13:01.269 this before, but it feels like in season two, 00:13:01.409 --> 00:13:04.350 or actually from Joy to the World onwards, that 00:13:04.350 --> 00:13:07.149 this Doctor, you're seeing a lot more layers 00:13:07.149 --> 00:13:09.269 to him and you're seeing a lot more depth beyond 00:13:09.269 --> 00:13:13.799 that. super hyper happy exterior and that's still 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:17.220 there it's like with Peter Davison where you 00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:19.539 see those layers to him where he's not just this 00:13:19.539 --> 00:13:24.179 relentlessly pleasant friendly character there's 00:13:24.179 --> 00:13:26.480 that that irritation and sharpness underneath 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:29.559 the surface and and I feel like we're sort of 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:31.840 getting far enough in to see those sorts of layers 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.139 to this doctor now and yeah I think they're really 00:13:35.139 --> 00:13:41.289 interesting and just how far he goes like because 00:13:41.289 --> 00:13:43.710 we've had moments where the Doctor has kind of 00:13:43.710 --> 00:13:46.809 been pushed or gotten to that point with the 00:13:46.809 --> 00:13:50.889 whole Time Lord Victorious arc and was it Solomon 00:13:50.889 --> 00:13:53.690 in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship? That one stood out 00:13:53.690 --> 00:13:57.029 quite a bit as well, where he was, was he deliberately 00:13:57.029 --> 00:14:03.090 sending him to his death on that spaceship? Yes. 00:14:03.889 --> 00:14:08.820 And, but this just. And I mean, if you look at 00:14:08.820 --> 00:14:10.899 it literally, what he does to the family of blood 00:14:10.899 --> 00:14:14.399 is much worse. That's like unending, eternal 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:18.860 torture and imprisonment. But he talks here about, 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:23.460 you know, hurting him like millions of times 00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:25.299 for all of the people that he was threatening. 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:28.679 And the way it is played in the scene, it goes 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.980 on for a long time. It's not just like once or 00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:34.620 twice to make the point of the doctor getting 00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:37.580 to the point of violence. How many times is it? 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:40.200 Like four, five, six, seven? It's like he does 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:44.820 it again and again and again. And I thought it 00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:49.019 was interesting. Belinda's reaction to it was 00:14:49.019 --> 00:14:53.740 interesting as well because she comes in and 00:14:53.740 --> 00:14:56.759 she's quite rightly shocked by it, but she doesn't 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.220 actually challenge him that much on it afterwards. 00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:03.879 Maybe they don't get time before the TARDIS doors 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:07.769 blow in, but it's... What did you think of Belinda's 00:15:07.769 --> 00:15:10.809 reaction to seeing how far the doctor had gone? 00:15:12.250 --> 00:15:15.070 I was certainly expecting a conversation that 00:15:15.070 --> 00:15:19.509 we never quite got. Yeah. There was the line 00:15:19.509 --> 00:15:22.230 about, you know, you do scare me sometimes or 00:15:22.230 --> 00:15:26.190 something like that, which felt like it was going 00:15:26.190 --> 00:15:28.850 to go into it. You know, it felt like there was 00:15:28.850 --> 00:15:30.649 another line that was going to come after that. 00:15:30.690 --> 00:15:32.529 Like, you know, you can't do that again, doctor. 00:15:32.610 --> 00:15:36.000 That was... that was too far, you're not, judge, 00:15:36.019 --> 00:15:39.879 jury, execution. And we didn't get there. But 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:42.899 I can't immediately remember whether we didn't 00:15:42.899 --> 00:15:44.899 get there because they were interrupted by Graham 00:15:44.899 --> 00:15:47.019 Norton or whether we didn't get there because 00:15:47.019 --> 00:15:51.200 it just wasn't going to happen. Yeah, I wanted 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:54.320 a bit more of that. I mean, like with Donna in 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:58.179 Runaway Bride, it's like a much more deliberate 00:15:58.179 --> 00:16:01.139 moment of challenging him and shouting at him 00:16:01.139 --> 00:16:05.470 to stop. Yeah. it doesn't have to be quite as 00:16:05.470 --> 00:16:08.669 as dramatic as that but I wanted something afterwards 00:16:08.669 --> 00:16:12.330 to and and it was a bit it was all a bit mixed 00:16:12.330 --> 00:16:14.830 up with the fact that this was played as the 00:16:14.830 --> 00:16:18.210 episode where Belinda is starting to have fun 00:16:18.210 --> 00:16:21.269 and like you know chooses to to stay and and 00:16:21.269 --> 00:16:23.870 I feel like there was an opportunity to do something 00:16:23.870 --> 00:16:26.389 with that of like she's at that point of starting 00:16:26.389 --> 00:16:29.549 to to like the doctor and to see how great he 00:16:29.549 --> 00:16:32.340 is and then this could have like pulled the rug 00:16:32.340 --> 00:16:35.519 out underneath of that, but it wasn't quite sort 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:37.919 of followed through in as clear a way as I wanted. 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.940 And it's kind of where this series felt as though 00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:44.559 it was going at the start. Those first couple 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:46.879 of episodes, first few episodes, we really did 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:51.360 have quite a bit about the relationship between 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:53.659 these two characters. And it seems to have been, 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:57.159 it's not forgotten. It's still there. And we 00:16:57.159 --> 00:16:58.960 do, you know, we are getting lights like you 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:02.309 scared me and that kind of thing, but. At the 00:17:02.309 --> 00:17:05.990 start of the series, Ida expected this episode 00:17:05.990 --> 00:17:08.670 to have a little bit more of a gut punch in relation 00:17:08.670 --> 00:17:13.130 to these two characters. And yeah, you're right. 00:17:13.210 --> 00:17:16.390 It just wasn't, it wasn't not there, but it wasn't 00:17:16.390 --> 00:17:19.349 quite there. It's like we thought about it and 00:17:19.349 --> 00:17:24.009 then that was enough. Yeah. And it's like you 00:17:24.009 --> 00:17:26.349 were saying last week, I think, that we've only 00:17:26.349 --> 00:17:30.019 got so much time with Belinda. and we're into 00:17:30.019 --> 00:17:34.500 finale territory now so again worry slightly 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:37.259 that it's a missed opportunity to to give her 00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:41.339 story a bit more more weight i really like the 00:17:41.339 --> 00:17:44.119 performance and the character i i feel like more 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:47.220 interested and engaged in the character um and 00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:49.119 not criticism really gives them but just like 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:52.460 i feel like belinda's got more interesting stuff 00:17:52.460 --> 00:17:56.160 to her in terms of the character But, yeah, I'm 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:57.940 seeing these sort of missed opportunities to 00:17:57.940 --> 00:18:01.099 go a bit further with her as well. Yeah, and 00:18:01.099 --> 00:18:06.039 I'm hoping that they... I'm hoping that there's 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:09.539 a moment in the finale to kind of pause and, 00:18:09.579 --> 00:18:12.640 you know, discuss this kind of thing. I hope 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.920 it's not just a case of, you know, at the end 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.160 of the finale, OK, Belinda, we've got you home 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.660 now, that's what you wanted, see you, bye, and 00:18:20.660 --> 00:18:23.980 then that'd be it. There needs to be some conclusion 00:18:23.980 --> 00:18:26.640 to this that isn't just, okay, Belinda's home 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.779 now. But that list of things to wrap up that 00:18:30.779 --> 00:18:33.079 we talked about last week, that's just gotten 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:39.940 longer because now we have two Ronnies. Is Kid 00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:42.339 potentially coming back? That seems to be the 00:18:42.339 --> 00:18:45.160 way it was played, unless that's for a future 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:49.099 series. Yeah, I get that that might be more of 00:18:49.099 --> 00:18:54.900 a... this villain will return. Think Cassandra 00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:59.240 and that kind of thing. Possibly. But then Russell 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.400 T Davies has also said that this unholy trinity 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.359 that's being referred to, the Rani only counts 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:09.539 as one of that trinity. Yes, they're still both 00:19:09.539 --> 00:19:13.559 the Rani. Because I was joking about the Rani 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:17.420 in a previous episode. I had no idea she was 00:19:17.420 --> 00:19:19.539 real. really going to appear but then she turned 00:19:19.539 --> 00:19:22.839 out to be real so now I'm worried that Omega 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:27.880 is going to turn up next week with zero introduction 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:32.519 and two seconds of a classic episode as a flashback 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:35.920 as if that helps people understand who he is 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:40.039 if they haven't seen all his previous TV stories 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:43.400 And I'll be honest, I really don't think Arkham 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:46.400 Infinity can be saved by a 75 -minute edit with 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:53.700 a bit of CGI thrown in. Then again, can Time 00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:56.140 and the Rani? Oh my God, are we getting Time 00:19:56.140 --> 00:19:59.240 and the Rani? Well, Time and the Rani had some 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:04.279 of, for the time, really impressive special effects. 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:09.420 I don't think it needs... I guess you could cut 00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:14.329 it down, but... Yeah. Maybe Mark of the Rani. 00:20:15.049 --> 00:20:17.369 You could probably shave out the entirety of 00:20:17.369 --> 00:20:19.289 the second episode of Time of the Rani and not 00:20:19.289 --> 00:20:24.089 lose too much. Yeah. So maybe that could make 00:20:24.089 --> 00:20:28.450 a Tales of the TARDIS episode. I don't know. 00:20:28.470 --> 00:20:30.569 I like to think they'll do that again. I like 00:20:30.569 --> 00:20:34.930 to think they will go, okay, let's watch Mark 00:20:34.930 --> 00:20:37.029 of the Rani, Time of the Rani. If it is Omega, 00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:41.630 let's watch. Three Doctors and Ark of Infinity, 00:20:41.849 --> 00:20:47.490 if we have to. Was the last year's Pyramids of 00:20:47.490 --> 00:20:49.609 Mars, Tales of the TARDIS, was that announced 00:20:49.609 --> 00:20:57.269 beforehand? I think Tales of the TARDIS was announced, 00:20:57.369 --> 00:20:59.549 but I didn't think we knew what it was going 00:20:59.549 --> 00:21:00.890 to be, because I think there was speculation 00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:04.950 that it was going to be basically a clip show 00:21:04.950 --> 00:21:10.180 of the series so far. And then SUTEC came back 00:21:10.180 --> 00:21:12.019 and immediately we all went, oh, right, it's 00:21:12.019 --> 00:21:13.940 Pyramid to Mars then. And then they announced 00:21:13.940 --> 00:21:16.299 it pretty quickly after that, that it was going 00:21:16.299 --> 00:21:19.539 to be, I think. But we don't have any slot for 00:21:19.539 --> 00:21:22.500 a new episode of Tales of the TARDIS announced 00:21:22.500 --> 00:21:26.400 at the moment. And I think we'd know by now. 00:21:27.619 --> 00:21:29.900 I don't know how far in advance they announced 00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:32.480 that. Then again, it doesn't necessarily need 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:34.180 to be announced. It doesn't need to be broadcast. 00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:37.160 It can just go on iPlayer without any warning. 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:45.519 Yeah. Like Pyramids had a BBC 4 broadcast, didn't 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:49.519 it? Yeah, I think it did, yeah. I think that 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.200 was around that time there was like something 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:57.559 on BBC 1, 2 and 4. I don't know about 3, but 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:01.480 yeah, like with the War Games, there was like 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:04.740 basically something new -ish Doctor Who on multiple 00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:10.119 BBC channels. Yeah. That sounds about right. 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:13.319 Just going back to the point you were making 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:18.579 about sort of politics before, and it kind of 00:22:18.579 --> 00:22:20.220 makes me laugh that some people are saying it 00:22:20.220 --> 00:22:22.380 didn't go into the politics enough because all 00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:25.359 I've heard for the best part of a decade now 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:28.720 is there's too much politics in Doctor Who. And 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:32.200 then the moment an episode sort of doesn't really 00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:34.759 go into the politics, oh, well, that wasn't political 00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:37.400 enough. Oh, I think it might be. Enough politics. 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:40.359 I think the reason for that might be is that 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:42.079 criticism is coming from a different direction. 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:47.380 So it's not like the sort of Conrads and right 00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:50.480 -wing grifters. It's actually more like some 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.099 sort of left -leaning people who are saying this 00:22:54.099 --> 00:22:56.660 oversimplified some really important stuff and 00:22:56.660 --> 00:23:00.339 it should have... Yeah, we could have done something 00:23:00.339 --> 00:23:05.579 with that. Yeah. I agree. But yeah, it just shows 00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:08.759 that... not everyone is always going to be happy 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:10.859 and i think there are too many people who seem 00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:13.259 to think that they should be the person that 00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:16.079 happy you know the i've watched this show for 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.579 45 50 whatever years crowd and therefore i know 00:23:19.579 --> 00:23:22.640 exactly what it should be like slight warning 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:24.319 for i think they're like officially released 00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:27.299 production stills but there's there's stuff coming 00:23:27.299 --> 00:23:30.539 out about the finale that's making me increasingly 00:23:30.539 --> 00:23:32.680 think that it's going to go in that direction 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:36.359 the fact that we've got Conrad set up as sort 00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:42.000 of representing that type of person who would 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.500 be at the sort of more toxic end of Doctor Who 00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:47.460 fandom if he wasn't pushing you know political 00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:52.039 conspiracies and then you've got a production 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:58.460 still of him holding a Doctor Who book so and 00:23:58.460 --> 00:24:01.319 we've had fans brought up like sort of less toxic 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:06.369 kind in in Lux I wonder if it is going to get 00:24:06.369 --> 00:24:09.369 into that, this thing of not just Doctor Who 00:24:09.369 --> 00:24:12.549 is fictional, but turning the mirror on fans 00:24:12.549 --> 00:24:16.410 and the audience, which stuff like Love and Monsters 00:24:16.410 --> 00:24:19.630 and other things have done in the past, but I 00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:22.630 wonder if that's going to be the big thing about 00:24:22.630 --> 00:24:24.630 the finale. It's going to be interesting to see 00:24:24.630 --> 00:24:29.250 how Conrad fits into this. I know it's like an 00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:31.470 unholy trinity and all that kind of thing, but... 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:37.519 The Rani working with a right -wing podcaster. 00:24:39.859 --> 00:24:43.519 And we're told that... I've seen it mentioned 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:46.599 that this isn't just character, this is the Rani, 00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:49.960 this is an experiment, there's something very 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:55.500 Rani -ish going on here. Yeah, I'm kind of curious 00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.500 as to how Conrad fits into all of it. What's 00:24:58.500 --> 00:25:02.559 called the reality... No, the penultimate is 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:06.259 Wishworld and then the final is the reality war. 00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:10.119 Conrad had that line about denying the Doctor's 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:13.819 reality. Is there something about the Rani's 00:25:13.819 --> 00:25:17.059 experiment allowing her to manipulate reality 00:25:17.059 --> 00:25:21.920 and rewrite the Doctor's history to... And maybe 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:23.740 that's where this ice in his heart thing is coming 00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:27.119 from. It's like that's the first bits of... This 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:29.980 sounds like exactly her plan from time in the 00:25:29.980 --> 00:25:34.680 Rani. Like, the third member of the Unholy Trinity 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.640 is a gigantic brain. I'm calling it now. You 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:42.000 heard it here first, and probably last. So yeah, 00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:46.000 maybe the... Oh, or maybe it's the Valiant. Maybe 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.900 the Doctor is the third member, and Conrad's 00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:54.359 going to turn the Doctor into the Valiant. You 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:56.160 see, if it was Moffat, that would definitely 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.019 be it. The Doctor would be the extra bit of evil. 00:26:00.700 --> 00:26:02.880 That's very Moffat -y, but I'm not sure Russell 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:07.680 T. Davis would do that. Interesting. I think 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:11.440 it's going to be something Pantheon -y, or Omega's 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:14.660 in control of all the gods now. We'll get a clip 00:26:14.660 --> 00:26:17.140 from the three Doctors where he goes, I should 00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:21.279 have been a god. Yeah, and in extended media, 00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:24.680 Omega's been... much more treated as a god or 00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:28.119 god figure, like the novels and, I think, audios 00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:32.160 as well. But there's also the Master, whose gold 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:35.299 tooth was trapped inside the Toymaker's tooth, 00:26:35.420 --> 00:26:39.460 and that's never come back. So are they going 00:26:39.460 --> 00:26:44.539 to pop up? Yeah, and I've always taken that as 00:26:44.539 --> 00:26:48.930 a thing that's just going to be used when. when 00:26:48.930 --> 00:26:51.349 they need it to. Like, there you go, the master, 00:26:51.509 --> 00:26:53.509 there's an easy way to bring him back if we need 00:26:53.509 --> 00:26:59.329 it. Yeah. We'll see. So we've kind of touched 00:26:59.329 --> 00:27:01.049 on this, or, you know, the next point of discussion 00:27:01.049 --> 00:27:03.450 was going to be the doctor in this episode and 00:27:03.450 --> 00:27:07.009 him, you know, him going a bit evil. Well, not 00:27:07.009 --> 00:27:09.410 evil, a bit dark, a bit sinister. And we've kind 00:27:09.410 --> 00:27:11.309 of covered that, you know, it's what he does. 00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:14.329 But it's interesting that the thing that pulls 00:27:14.329 --> 00:27:19.359 him back is visions of Susan. Caroline Ford's 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:23.539 back. This is proper Susan. We've not regenerated 00:27:23.539 --> 00:27:29.799 Susan. We've not. And I honestly do not believe 00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:31.759 that this is the last we've seen of her. There's 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:36.319 no way you bring her back for the sake of those 00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.519 few little appearances that don't really quite 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:42.920 make all that much sense. So where do we think 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:47.769 the Susan thing is going? I don't know, but yeah, 00:27:47.809 --> 00:27:50.190 I agree she's coming back. And again, in Unleashed, 00:27:50.230 --> 00:27:53.369 she was wearing what looked like a different 00:27:53.369 --> 00:27:56.170 costume from the ones in the shots that we saw, 00:27:56.289 --> 00:27:58.569 and I think it would not be a surprise if she's 00:27:58.569 --> 00:28:04.369 back. So Susan was the one who definitely snapped 00:28:04.369 --> 00:28:05.970 him out of that moment where he was about to 00:28:05.970 --> 00:28:08.349 be frozen. But I'm just thinking about how it 00:28:08.349 --> 00:28:11.190 played out towards the end of the episode, because 00:28:11.190 --> 00:28:16.319 didn't he ignore her when she was saying, she 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:18.759 was telling him to stop. I feel like it was something 00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:20.619 else that actually made him stop in the end. 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:23.779 I think it took her a few times telling him to 00:28:23.779 --> 00:28:27.880 stop, but eventually he did. Yeah. And it's, 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:34.339 it's, I don't know, maybe she's going to have 00:28:34.339 --> 00:28:40.519 some role in, like, rather than it being just 00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:42.940 like happy reunion, she's going to be back and 00:28:42.940 --> 00:28:48.079 it's going to be her stopping the doctor. Or 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:54.380 it's going to be that just her in person is the 00:28:54.380 --> 00:28:59.119 thing that pulls him back from the edge. You'd 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:03.500 certainly hope. Yeah. I'm curious as to how all 00:29:03.500 --> 00:29:06.880 of this fits together. Yeah, I've got no idea. 00:29:07.299 --> 00:29:10.980 Yeah, it feels like we've just got a lot of pieces 00:29:10.980 --> 00:29:15.839 on the board randomly at this point. Like the 00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:17.519 Doctor and Belinda are on the board, Earth's 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:20.480 Been Destroyed is on the board, the Rani, both 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:22.660 Ranis are on the board, Conrad's on the board, 00:29:22.779 --> 00:29:24.960 Ruby's on the board, Unit's on the board, Mel's 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.880 on the board, Susan's on the board. How do these 00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:33.279 pieces play together? What's it all going to? 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:39.099 It kind of feels like where we're up to with... 00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:43.960 Avengers Doomsday at the moment where we've got 00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:47.960 a lot of chairs with names on the back and no 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:55.599 context and yeah I'm just okay all of this is 00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.460 going to be in the finale there's a lot to fit 00:29:58.460 --> 00:30:01.339 a hell of a lot to fit in yeah I think that's 00:30:01.339 --> 00:30:03.759 a good comparison but like even more so with 00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:07.140 this finale because with Doomsday yeah they'll 00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:09.900 do some heavy adaptation but we've got the original 00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:12.920 comic stories to get a sense of how it will play 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:16.099 out and how all those characters will form into 00:30:16.099 --> 00:30:20.960 teams and come up against dr doom but yeah with 00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:23.180 this finale i've got no and again it's like we're 00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:24.920 saying about before about the second half of 00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:28.440 this season it's it's quite nice to go in not 00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:32.700 knowing how it's all going to play out um because 00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:37.079 like with in season one we just had fewer elements 00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.200 and it was like the stuff about Ruby on one side 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:43.079 and then Sutec as this late in the day reveal 00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:46.980 and those two things were tied together just 00:30:46.980 --> 00:30:52.059 about I can't see all these dozen different things 00:30:52.059 --> 00:30:55.240 you listed how they're all going to be wrapped 00:30:55.240 --> 00:31:00.900 up in a neat little package but we do know they're 00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:03.880 all there yeah And there's other stuff as well, 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:08.599 like we know that Susan Twist's in it, Susan 00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:13.839 Triad character's in it. Oh, yeah. Well, they 00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:15.660 announced she was coming back and she's not been 00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:21.160 in it so far, so that's what I'm getting. Yeah, 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.359 the more I think about it, the more I sort of 00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:26.539 go, hang on, that's in there as well, isn't it? 00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:31.220 Oh, we know we've got Poppy from Space Babies 00:31:31.220 --> 00:31:34.470 as well. Yeah, that's a big one as well. Yeah, 00:31:34.549 --> 00:31:37.710 the more I think about this, the more there is 00:31:37.710 --> 00:31:39.849 going to be in the next two weeks. And actually, 00:31:39.990 --> 00:31:43.049 we know nothing about the plot. We just know 00:31:43.049 --> 00:31:50.190 a lineup of what's in it. Very curious sort of 00:31:50.190 --> 00:31:54.569 how any of this is going to fit together. What 00:31:54.569 --> 00:31:58.990 was the Rani's line? Let battle commence. Yes. 00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:05.109 That doesn't really... Like with who? So this 00:32:05.109 --> 00:32:08.230 is the other thing. Mrs. Flood has this complete 00:32:08.230 --> 00:32:12.190 switch of being really meek and subservient after 00:32:12.190 --> 00:32:15.869 the bi -generation. I don't buy that at all because 00:32:15.869 --> 00:32:17.769 you think back to the way that she was talking 00:32:17.769 --> 00:32:23.670 when she was with Cherry and when they were dusted. 00:32:24.609 --> 00:32:30.009 Yeah. So when the David Tennant's 14th Doctor 00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:33.240 by generated he doesn't become a different character 00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:37.940 it's played as it's a split and he is the same 00:32:37.940 --> 00:32:42.259 regeneration splitting off to the side so if 00:32:42.259 --> 00:32:44.279 it's the same logic with mrs flood she's not 00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:46.500 going to go from someone who's talking like she 00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:49.960 can go up against gods to then just being this 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:54.220 really meek person i think there's a lot of like 00:32:54.220 --> 00:32:56.859 sort of barely hidden disdain or superiority 00:32:56.859 --> 00:33:02.589 and she's just playing the new Rani or giving 00:33:02.589 --> 00:33:07.670 her the sense that she's this meek person? Yes, 00:33:07.670 --> 00:33:13.970 I get the same impression. And that leaves the 00:33:13.970 --> 00:33:17.829 option open of is the Mrs. Flood regeneration 00:33:17.829 --> 00:33:23.170 of the Rani actually on the Doctor's side? Because 00:33:23.170 --> 00:33:25.690 there was hints of that with previous Mrs. Flood 00:33:25.690 --> 00:33:28.559 stuff. The way she would say... Was it the same 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:33.559 episode when they get de -dusted? She talks about 00:33:33.559 --> 00:33:37.180 the Doctor being that clever boy or something. 00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:40.339 Yeah, because everyone started going, oh, it's 00:33:40.339 --> 00:33:44.400 Clara. Yeah, and that's not the way that the 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:48.960 Rani in her traditional camp evil persona would 00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:52.240 talk about the Doctor. So maybe this is like 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:56.009 an aberration. regeneration of the Rani where 00:33:56.009 --> 00:34:00.549 it's like Missy and like she's she heals yeah 00:34:00.549 --> 00:34:07.309 and yeah yeah so I feel like there could be something 00:34:07.309 --> 00:34:09.449 really interesting going on with her which I 00:34:09.449 --> 00:34:12.269 hope there is because I hope we get more of Anita 00:34:12.269 --> 00:34:15.789 Dobson beyond just like following the new Rani 00:34:15.789 --> 00:34:19.389 around who looks really great as well but I hope 00:34:19.389 --> 00:34:21.630 Anita Dobson doesn't get too sidelined which 00:34:21.630 --> 00:34:25.099 is a risk with this these dozen different plot 00:34:25.099 --> 00:34:30.260 elements again to link up. At this point, I do 00:34:30.260 --> 00:34:33.760 sort of wonder if we're going into a Doctor Light 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:38.940 episode again. Maybe not like completely Doctor 00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:42.539 Light, but I'm thinking The Stolen Earth, how 00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:44.500 it takes the Doctor the whole episode to actually 00:34:44.500 --> 00:34:48.800 get to where everything's going on. And it's 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:53.630 sort of a bit more led by Unit. Torch Wooden, 00:34:53.650 --> 00:34:59.409 Sarah Jane. I kind of wonder if maybe that's... 00:34:59.409 --> 00:35:02.610 We're going to get that as a first episode, you 00:35:02.610 --> 00:35:06.030 know, the Doctor trying to get to Earth and maybe 00:35:06.030 --> 00:35:10.150 Unit are leading things a little bit and, you 00:35:10.150 --> 00:35:12.829 know, by the time the Doctor gets to Earth, everything's 00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:17.030 already gone dreadful. Oh, yes, Unit as well. 00:35:17.090 --> 00:35:20.650 Like, yeah, are we going to have space here for... 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:26.000 more set up of the spin -off? Or is that just 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.239 going to be its own thing and kind of not have 00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:32.000 too much of a hard link into the main show? Or 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:35.099 at least a continuation of where Lucky Day left 00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:39.579 off. Yeah, because I think things were said by 00:35:39.579 --> 00:35:45.179 the writer or Russell T Davies about that having 00:35:45.179 --> 00:35:48.860 important links to the spin -off, like the public 00:35:48.860 --> 00:35:53.000 reaction to Unit. Yeah, so maybe there's a little 00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:58.280 bit more of a look at that. Hard to say, but 00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:02.920 I do like where it's all going. I just hope it 00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:08.619 can stick the landing. And I did find that last 00:36:08.619 --> 00:36:11.719 year's finale, I really liked the first part. 00:36:11.900 --> 00:36:14.380 I thought it really built up suspense. We had 00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:17.679 the whole extended sequence in the time window. 00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.630 Yeah, that was good, yeah. It built up and it 00:36:21.630 --> 00:36:24.070 built up and it built up and it was really tense 00:36:24.070 --> 00:36:27.449 and I just don't think we're going to have time 00:36:27.449 --> 00:36:30.369 for that this time because there's just so much 00:36:30.369 --> 00:36:36.269 there. The majority of that episode was trying 00:36:36.269 --> 00:36:42.130 to figure out who Ruby's mum was. That was a 00:36:42.130 --> 00:36:44.269 very, very big chunk of that episode. We kind 00:36:44.269 --> 00:36:46.789 of had Mel doing a bit of undercover stuff as 00:36:46.789 --> 00:36:51.559 well, but essentially... Yeah, and we're not 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:53.380 going to get that this time. We're not going 00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:57.400 to have time for that big build -up if everything 00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.059 that we've just listed is all going to get a 00:37:00.059 --> 00:37:08.559 decent sort of slice of the cake. Again, I sound 00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:10.579 like I'm going into this finale really negative. 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:12.440 I'm not. I think it's great that all of these 00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:15.780 things are sort of together. We kind of know 00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:17.800 what the ingredients are, but not what the final 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:21.400 dish is. And we know that Russell T. Davis can 00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:26.400 handle a finale where there are a lot of characters 00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.000 that need serving. Like, we've done that. We 00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:32.000 had it with Stolen Earth and Journey's End. And 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.699 if this ends up being half as good as Stolen 00:37:34.699 --> 00:37:37.099 Earth and Journey's End, we're up for a pretty 00:37:37.099 --> 00:37:42.159 good finale. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really curious. 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:48.079 I'm sort of very cautious about... all of this 00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:49.900 being wrapped up in a satisfied way, but also 00:37:49.900 --> 00:37:53.860 really fascinated as to what it will look like. 00:37:55.780 --> 00:38:00.599 Yeah, it's that how for me, like how is this 00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.460 all, how does it all fit together? Because it 00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:07.179 just feels like a lot of random pieces at the 00:38:07.179 --> 00:38:10.739 moment. Yeah. Which is good, you know, we're 00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:13.719 sat here talking about it, speculating, so that's, 00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:19.239 it's kind of done its thing. It's the old playground 00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:21.500 discussion analogy, isn't it? And that kind of 00:38:21.500 --> 00:38:24.860 thing. So it has done its job. It's got us talking 00:38:24.860 --> 00:38:27.260 about what it's supposed to have us talking about. 00:38:28.099 --> 00:38:33.320 But really, I'm really enjoying going into a 00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:36.219 Doctor Who finale with absolutely no idea where 00:38:36.219 --> 00:38:40.199 it's going. And this could be the first time. 00:38:40.300 --> 00:38:42.940 This could genuinely be the first finale where 00:38:42.940 --> 00:38:48.489 I've not really known. what's coming at all you 00:38:48.489 --> 00:38:51.030 know everything else we've had leaks we've had 00:38:51.030 --> 00:38:54.409 spoilers we've had set reports we've had you 00:38:54.409 --> 00:38:57.489 know we've been told stuff we've had stuff going 00:38:57.489 --> 00:39:03.250 into this time there's it's nothing like i'd 00:39:03.250 --> 00:39:05.670 struggle to even tell you where it was set like 00:39:05.670 --> 00:39:09.170 i assume earth on the day that earth gets destroyed 00:39:09.170 --> 00:39:12.809 like that's that's the best guess but We don't 00:39:12.809 --> 00:39:14.829 know how it gets destroyed, who destroys it, 00:39:14.909 --> 00:39:18.929 why it gets destroyed, how it links to any of 00:39:18.929 --> 00:39:33.489 the things that we listed before. So the one 00:39:33.489 --> 00:39:35.750 thing we haven't talked about much is the music 00:39:35.750 --> 00:39:40.849 in this episode. Yes, I was hoping to avoid that. 00:39:43.150 --> 00:39:47.190 I thought it was pretty authentic. Yeah. Picking 00:39:47.190 --> 00:39:52.010 the sort of major types of Eurovision song, it 00:39:52.010 --> 00:39:57.550 felt very authentic to that. I'd be curious to, 00:39:57.590 --> 00:39:59.630 because we didn't get them all play out in full, 00:39:59.769 --> 00:40:02.909 if they do a sort of mini soundtrack release 00:40:02.909 --> 00:40:06.730 like they did with the Goblin song single, I'd 00:40:06.730 --> 00:40:11.010 be curious to hear them in full. But you weren't 00:40:11.010 --> 00:40:15.250 impressed, it sounds like. You just want that 00:40:15.250 --> 00:40:20.690 full version of Dugadoo, don't you? I mean, you 00:40:20.690 --> 00:40:22.829 and the majority of other people I've spoken 00:40:22.829 --> 00:40:25.010 to about this episode over the last few days. 00:40:26.409 --> 00:40:30.210 I like the first one as well, the one just before 00:40:30.210 --> 00:40:37.789 everyone gets sucked off. Yeah, that sounded 00:40:37.789 --> 00:40:41.440 good. And yeah, just be curious to hear them 00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:45.800 play out in full. Like I preferred this to, there's 00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:50.820 always a twist at the end. Yes, absolutely. No, 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.500 no, you're absolutely right. The music was entirely 00:40:53.500 --> 00:40:57.860 sort of authentic to the different kind of styles 00:40:57.860 --> 00:41:00.239 and songs you get at Eurovision. It totally was. 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:05.900 It was very, very well done. There was certainly 00:41:05.900 --> 00:41:10.500 a better understanding of, Eurovision than The 00:41:10.500 --> 00:41:15.239 Devil's Chord had of The Beatles. That kind of 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:23.719 thing. Again, it's not particularly my genre 00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:26.199 of music. I'll sit and watch Eurovision and have 00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:28.039 one too many to drink and a bit of a laugh with 00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:31.300 it like everybody else, but I'm never going to 00:41:31.300 --> 00:41:34.519 be the person sat there going, I'm actually going 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:38.179 to get this song and listen to it normally. Do 00:41:38.179 --> 00:41:40.360 people do that? Is that a thing? Are people doing 00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:43.900 Eurovision soundtracks? Yeah, I think they definitely 00:41:43.900 --> 00:41:48.480 do full Eurovision CD soundtracks. They used 00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:52.480 to do them. There'll be digital ones now. I'll 00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:56.739 never forget when Sam Ryder with Spaceman, which 00:41:56.739 --> 00:41:59.139 did quite well, obviously. UK entry did quite 00:41:59.139 --> 00:42:03.480 well. I'll never forget the massive mistake he 00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:07.820 made when it came to titling his album. Because 00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:12.639 it was, there's nothing but spaceman. Which, 00:42:12.659 --> 00:42:18.460 it's not what you meant, is it, Sam? But the 00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:24.539 reviewers picked up on it. But yeah, it's, yeah, 00:42:24.659 --> 00:42:28.179 it was, like you say, it was perfectly authentic. 00:42:28.460 --> 00:42:31.400 It genuinely felt like this is what Eurovision 00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:36.360 is going to be if it still exists in. many, many, 00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:42.940 many years' time. Considering most New Doctor 00:42:42.940 --> 00:42:46.920 Who has been broadcast on the same evening, well, 00:42:46.980 --> 00:42:50.480 most series have had an episode broadcast on 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.260 the same evening as Eurovision, I should say. 00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:55.619 I'm amazed they've not done this before. It's 00:42:55.619 --> 00:42:58.539 such an obvious thing to do when you think about 00:42:58.539 --> 00:43:03.699 it. But in the same way... I'm kind of glad that 00:43:03.699 --> 00:43:05.940 it's happened now because this episode would 00:43:05.940 --> 00:43:11.139 not have looked as good five years ago, let alone 00:43:11.139 --> 00:43:18.940 1520. Yeah, definitely. This was another one 00:43:18.940 --> 00:43:21.760 where we saw the Disney budget. I feel the need 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:23.980 to put a little TM next to it every time I say 00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:28.239 Disney budget. But yeah, this is another episode 00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:30.659 where we definitely saw that Disney budget doing 00:43:30.659 --> 00:43:33.960 its thing. This is how Doctor Who should look. 00:43:38.579 --> 00:43:41.260 Yeah, like I said, that sequence near the start, 00:43:41.420 --> 00:43:43.380 like really early on, that was one of the most 00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:46.079 impressive, but just generally throughout, like 00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:52.400 all the visuals outside the space station, all 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:57.630 of that was really impressive. Yeah, it was great. 00:44:00.389 --> 00:44:03.309 So is there anything else you want to add or 00:44:03.309 --> 00:44:08.710 discuss or anything like that at all? Yeah, we 00:44:08.710 --> 00:44:11.869 talked a lot about what this is setting up for 00:44:11.869 --> 00:44:20.489 the finale. Belinda, the Doctor, the villain 00:44:20.489 --> 00:44:22.969 themselves. And again, coming back to the fact 00:44:22.969 --> 00:44:24.849 that if you had lots more time, you could flesh 00:44:24.849 --> 00:44:31.010 things out. I thought he was in between Conrad 00:44:31.010 --> 00:44:34.250 and the guy from Robot Revolution in terms of 00:44:34.250 --> 00:44:37.949 depth and complexity. I feel like Robot Revolution 00:44:37.949 --> 00:44:41.650 guy is towards the bottom. Conrad's the most 00:44:41.650 --> 00:44:44.750 interesting and layered. And then this guy is 00:44:44.750 --> 00:44:47.409 sort of sitting in the middle where he's got 00:44:47.409 --> 00:44:51.190 some sort of charisma and depth to him, but it 00:44:51.190 --> 00:44:53.949 still is a bit, he doesn't really go on any sort 00:44:53.949 --> 00:44:57.610 of journey. And maybe that's the point of his 00:44:57.610 --> 00:45:00.570 character. He's kind of already been on the journey 00:45:00.570 --> 00:45:03.610 at the start. And what goes on in this episode 00:45:03.610 --> 00:45:07.090 are the actions following that. But yeah, you're 00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:11.010 right. There was never any kind of moment of 00:45:11.010 --> 00:45:13.590 regret. Like the episode ended with him in exactly 00:45:13.590 --> 00:45:15.869 the same place as it started, which he kind of 00:45:15.869 --> 00:45:19.750 did with Conrad. But I think Conrad, you can 00:45:19.750 --> 00:45:23.269 look at Conrad and you can see. a real person 00:45:23.269 --> 00:45:25.949 we see these people in the media at the time 00:45:25.949 --> 00:45:28.230 you know you can yeah he's got the messiness 00:45:28.230 --> 00:45:31.130 yeah like he's got the messiness to him as well 00:45:31.130 --> 00:45:33.090 of like is he is he actually does he actually 00:45:33.090 --> 00:45:35.989 believe this or is he just a grifter and it's 00:45:35.989 --> 00:45:38.210 played with enough complexity that you could 00:45:38.210 --> 00:45:43.210 read it either way at times yeah um but comrade 00:45:43.210 --> 00:45:47.630 is not a pleasant one but very much human yeah 00:45:47.630 --> 00:45:54.690 yeah and it's whereas Yeah, the villain in this, 00:45:54.730 --> 00:45:57.530 I've actually forgotten his name. Kid. Kid, yeah. 00:45:57.849 --> 00:46:03.030 Yeah. Automatically, Kid wasn't a human and therefore 00:46:03.030 --> 00:46:07.650 lost all of those links to real people and real 00:46:07.650 --> 00:46:12.250 situations and real personas. It lost all of 00:46:12.250 --> 00:46:16.389 that. While where Kid was coming from was definitely 00:46:16.389 --> 00:46:20.849 a similar place to. where a lot of humans are 00:46:20.849 --> 00:46:26.070 um you did sort of lose a level of character 00:46:26.070 --> 00:46:29.289 complexity there because we're we were only told 00:46:29.289 --> 00:46:32.429 quite briefly actually about what happened to 00:46:32.429 --> 00:46:35.809 the home world and there's hints about how the 00:46:35.809 --> 00:46:38.989 race is persecuted but again there's no real 00:46:38.989 --> 00:46:43.710 it doesn't go into it at all it's it's it's sort 00:46:43.710 --> 00:46:46.510 of there but like again like the belinda confrontation 00:46:46.510 --> 00:46:48.619 it's there but like could have been made more 00:46:48.619 --> 00:46:51.400 because isn't there a line about where his name 00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:54.900 comes from that it's not because of a baby goat 00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:59.599 it's because he was his parents were killed or 00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:01.300 he was taken away from his parents before he 00:47:01.300 --> 00:47:05.280 was named or something so there's little like 00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:07.579 if you look closely there are those very sort 00:47:07.579 --> 00:47:11.199 of dark hints and layers there but actually his 00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:13.980 accomplice was the one who I think had a bit 00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:16.389 more depth to her in a sense that in the sense 00:47:16.389 --> 00:47:20.889 that she seemed conflicted certainly more conflicted 00:47:20.889 --> 00:47:23.309 yeah like she she went on a bit of a journey 00:47:23.309 --> 00:47:25.570 but still kind of ended up in the same place 00:47:25.570 --> 00:47:31.190 yeah nevertheless um yeah it's definitely one 00:47:31.190 --> 00:47:34.250 of those episodes where the doctor's presence 00:47:34.250 --> 00:47:40.280 did actively make everything better You know, 00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:42.860 it's very easy for the Doctor to not actually 00:47:42.860 --> 00:47:45.219 have that much impact on what's going on, whereas 00:47:45.219 --> 00:47:47.880 on this one, everybody would have been screwed 00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:54.780 without the Doctor. Yeah. So, yeah. But, yeah, 00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:57.159 no, you're right. There just wasn't quite... 00:47:57.159 --> 00:47:59.820 We did need that little bit more. There wasn't 00:47:59.820 --> 00:48:03.460 quite that Conrad level of... But, you know, 00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:08.239 Lucky Day had... It did take time to explore 00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:10.400 Comrade and it did explore him on a very human 00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:13.300 level and he didn't particularly interact with 00:48:13.300 --> 00:48:16.019 the Doctor much. It was Ruby, another human character 00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:20.059 who we have spent a lot of time with. That was 00:48:20.059 --> 00:48:25.019 kind of his main point of contact for the audience. 00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:30.739 Yeah, but definitely not a bad villain, definitely 00:48:30.739 --> 00:48:34.199 not a forgettable villain. definitely a villain 00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:37.320 we have seen in Doctor Who quite a lot before, 00:48:37.460 --> 00:48:42.139 I think. But yeah, you know, the motivation was 00:48:42.139 --> 00:48:44.059 there. We know what it was. You can kind of look 00:48:44.059 --> 00:48:46.539 at it and go, yeah, see, I can see how he's got 00:48:46.539 --> 00:48:49.920 there. He just didn't really go anywhere throughout 00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:52.500 the course of the episode. And like the Disney 00:48:52.500 --> 00:48:55.099 money stuff, this is where like the new budget 00:48:55.099 --> 00:48:57.699 lines up with the storytelling maybe, because 00:48:57.699 --> 00:48:59.380 yes, we've seen characters like him in Doctor 00:48:59.380 --> 00:49:04.340 Who loads of times, but we've never seen. their 00:49:04.340 --> 00:49:06.980 actions or the impact of their actions play out 00:49:06.980 --> 00:49:11.840 in, I think, quite as much sort of quite horrific 00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:16.400 detail, like all those people seemingly being 00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:20.099 killed. You don't see that sort of killing on 00:49:20.099 --> 00:49:24.659 that scale in most Doctor Who? No, absolutely 00:49:24.659 --> 00:49:28.300 not. I did kind of wonder, when it happened, 00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:30.639 I kind of wondered, okay, you know, is the Doctor 00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:32.639 going to be the only survivor here? You know, 00:49:32.659 --> 00:49:36.280 is this going to be a, have we just watched the 00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:40.739 biggest death count in all Doctor Who ever? Which, 00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:44.539 you know, we've had the suggestion of mass death 00:49:44.539 --> 00:49:47.639 in Doctor Who. You know, think back to parting 00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:50.679 of the ways where the Daleks bombed the Earth 00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:54.159 and literally reshaped continents. Yeah, but 00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:59.199 that's from space. Yeah, all you saw was a little 00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:01.480 computer graphic of continents changing shape. 00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:07.239 Exactly, yeah. But no, it would have been pretty 00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:12.659 massive to have just left it. I noticed the line 00:50:12.659 --> 00:50:15.239 of dialogue, they're all alive, went in pretty 00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:18.199 quickly. There was obviously the immediate tension 00:50:18.199 --> 00:50:23.079 when you saw everybody lift up. Yeah. It was 00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:25.119 the very next scene where we go, oh, they are 00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:29.860 still alive, by the way, guys. It's okay. Which 00:50:29.860 --> 00:50:32.500 I think is okay. Again, it's like a show aimed 00:50:32.500 --> 00:50:35.579 at the whole family. You don't want little kids 00:50:35.579 --> 00:50:39.679 to feel that hundreds, thousands of people have 00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:41.400 been slaughtered and just leave them with that 00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:44.760 for half the episode. If it was Big Finish, it 00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:47.920 would be right at the end. Oh, by the way, there's 00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:51.460 still a gravity bubble. Everyone's okay. And 00:50:51.460 --> 00:50:53.780 if it was the New Adventures, billions of people 00:50:53.780 --> 00:50:56.039 would just stay dead and that would just be part 00:50:56.039 --> 00:51:00.579 of the Doctor's character now. If it was New 00:51:00.579 --> 00:51:04.179 Adventures, Kit would have succeeded and the 00:51:04.179 --> 00:51:08.820 Doctor would have let it happen because maybe 00:51:08.820 --> 00:51:14.360 he was right. I don't know. All right. Well, 00:51:14.539 --> 00:51:16.690 I think... I think we've covered it. I think 00:51:16.690 --> 00:51:19.230 we've got it there. It was a great episode. It 00:51:19.230 --> 00:51:22.389 is a great series. I'm really looking forward 00:51:22.389 --> 00:51:24.630 to talking about the next two episodes because 00:51:24.630 --> 00:51:27.710 I have no idea at this point what it is we're 00:51:27.710 --> 00:51:32.150 going to be talking about. And that's quite exciting. 00:51:32.889 --> 00:51:35.889 So Doctor Who's got me excited. I think it has 00:51:35.889 --> 00:51:38.730 this whole series, to be honest. I'm invested. 00:51:38.969 --> 00:51:43.250 I'm wanting to watch it. You know, watching it 00:51:43.250 --> 00:51:46.329 at 8 o 'clock when possible. That kind of thing. 00:51:46.429 --> 00:51:48.510 As I said at the start, this is the first one 00:51:48.510 --> 00:51:50.909 where I've kind of gone, yeah, I want to watch 00:51:50.909 --> 00:51:52.809 this as quickly as possible. Everything else 00:51:52.809 --> 00:51:56.710 I've kind of watched when I can. Always on the 00:51:56.710 --> 00:51:59.989 Saturday, of course. But this is the one where 00:51:59.989 --> 00:52:01.449 I've kind of gone, yeah, I need to watch this 00:52:01.449 --> 00:52:06.170 now. And I think that's how I'm going to feel 00:52:06.170 --> 00:52:10.110 on this coming Saturday as well. And Saturday 00:52:10.110 --> 00:52:12.769 after that, it's going to have to be seven o 00:52:12.769 --> 00:52:15.969 'clock. Yeah, I've booked it for the cinema and 00:52:15.969 --> 00:52:19.289 I don't think it's feasible to try and avoid 00:52:19.289 --> 00:52:22.670 spoilers for Wishworld. So I think it will have 00:52:22.670 --> 00:52:25.909 to be at 8am viewing for Wishworld and then re 00:52:25.909 --> 00:52:29.769 -watch it in the cinema. It feels insane to try 00:52:29.769 --> 00:52:33.170 and avoid for the whole week. Well, I also need 00:52:33.170 --> 00:52:35.650 you to watch Wishworld straight away so we can 00:52:35.650 --> 00:52:40.880 talk about it. It would be really interesting 00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:43.280 trying to talk about an episode with you that 00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:47.420 you'd not seen without spoiling it, which is 00:52:47.420 --> 00:52:49.219 not a challenge. I think we should try sometime. 00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:54.380 Yeah. Right. Well, we shall leave it there, but 00:52:54.380 --> 00:52:56.800 thanks as ever for joining me, Mansoor. It's 00:52:56.800 --> 00:52:59.099 been really good discussing this. Yeah, my pleasure. 00:52:59.920 --> 00:53:02.920 And yeah, we'll be back to talk about Wishworld 00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:06.539 next week when hopefully we'll... we'll know 00:53:06.539 --> 00:53:07.940 what we're talking about. We'll have something 00:53:07.940 --> 00:53:10.800 to talk about. And hopefully some of the speculation 00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:15.420 that we've kind of suggested here will be proved 00:53:15.420 --> 00:53:18.659 to be right or wrong. We're going to be talking 00:53:18.659 --> 00:53:22.719 about Omega next week, aren't we? Like we actually 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:27.679 are. Yeah, we'll see. Well, thanks very much 00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:29.360 for listening, everybody. And we will be back 00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:31.320 for more Spodcasting soon. Goodbye now.