WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:07.000 You're listening to a podcast of Spirulius Verity. 00:01:01.770 --> 00:01:05.030 Hello, and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality. 00:01:05.269 --> 00:01:08.109 I'm Johnston, and with me again this week, I 00:01:08.109 --> 00:01:12.469 have Mansell. Hello. Hello. So we're continuing 00:01:12.469 --> 00:01:16.209 through the new series of Doctor Who. We're doing 00:01:16.209 --> 00:01:18.549 the story and the engine this week, which is, 00:01:18.609 --> 00:01:21.450 it's proved to be quite an interesting episode 00:01:21.450 --> 00:01:24.730 in terms of reception, I think. It's very different 00:01:24.730 --> 00:01:27.650 for Doctor Who. In fact, it struck me as a little 00:01:27.650 --> 00:01:31.769 bit big finishy. But in a good way, a good Big 00:01:31.769 --> 00:01:37.790 Finish. TV Doctor Who doesn't normally explore 00:01:37.790 --> 00:01:42.650 non -European locations, for example, except 00:01:42.650 --> 00:01:47.409 the odd trip to America. It was a very sort of, 00:01:47.409 --> 00:01:50.750 I guess, high concept story by TV Doctor Who 00:01:50.750 --> 00:01:55.579 standards. Did Big Finish not exist? If Big Finish 00:01:55.579 --> 00:02:00.040 didn't exist, this would be a completely out 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:02.239 there, different kind of story. But I think, 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:07.480 I actually think it's not because we have had 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:09.819 Big Finish and Big Finish has enabled the Doctor 00:02:09.819 --> 00:02:13.219 to explore sort of more interesting locations 00:02:13.219 --> 00:02:17.780 than London and Cardiff. But overall, good episode, 00:02:17.860 --> 00:02:19.740 I thought. I enjoyed it. I'm going to jump straight 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:23.020 in with I enjoyed this one. It was... sort of 00:02:23.020 --> 00:02:26.639 an interesting one. And it did different things. 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:29.099 And it's good to see, even with a reduced episode 00:02:29.099 --> 00:02:32.099 count, we are doing different things. I really 00:02:32.099 --> 00:02:34.800 appreciated that. What were your sort of thoughts 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:38.219 on it, Mansoor? Yeah, for TV Doctor Who, it's 00:02:38.219 --> 00:02:43.580 refreshing that after 50 plus years, they can 00:02:43.580 --> 00:02:46.879 still do stories that feel... fresh and unique 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:50.840 for tv but like i said that not so much big finish 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:54.080 but what my first thought was um uh like the 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:57.199 the novels like both the bbc novels for the eighth 00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:01.240 doctor and the virgin uh new adventures for the 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:05.180 seventh because of well firstly this whole season 00:03:05.180 --> 00:03:08.680 has been focused on this god's arc but then the 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:13.300 the particularly heightened magical realism stuff 00:03:13.300 --> 00:03:16.460 that was going on in this story that felt very 00:03:16.460 --> 00:03:18.379 very like some of the stuff that was going on 00:03:18.379 --> 00:03:23.439 in the novels um so so yeah in good ways again 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:26.120 like like like other stories this season reminding 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:31.539 me of some of the best extended media stuff i 00:03:31.539 --> 00:03:33.939 have seen reviews that have sort of said it managed 00:03:33.939 --> 00:03:36.879 to squeeze a lot of the depth that you get in 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:40.539 those new adventures novels into a 45 50 minute 00:03:40.539 --> 00:03:43.939 episode which It's hard to argue with. There 00:03:43.939 --> 00:03:48.439 was a lot of really good stuff in there. Yeah, 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:52.159 I think the pacing stuff is still a thing for 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:55.479 this whole era, like every week. And again, like 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.939 in a good way in that I've seen people as well 00:03:58.939 --> 00:04:00.620 say that this could have been a two -part story 00:04:00.620 --> 00:04:02.699 and I've seen that comment about a lot of episodes 00:04:02.699 --> 00:04:07.090 this season. And again, I see the logic in not 00:04:07.090 --> 00:04:09.569 losing people's attention and rattling through 00:04:09.569 --> 00:04:12.789 a story and thinking about the risk of people 00:04:12.789 --> 00:04:15.689 second screening it and having their phone in 00:04:15.689 --> 00:04:18.250 their hand and being desperate to hold on to 00:04:18.250 --> 00:04:22.290 their attention. But yeah, I wish sometimes we 00:04:22.290 --> 00:04:24.129 could just let things breathe just for an extra 00:04:24.129 --> 00:04:27.089 10, 15 minutes. And you mentioned Ghost Light. 00:04:27.149 --> 00:04:29.610 It made me think of that story a lot in that 00:04:29.610 --> 00:04:33.199 I watched it. And the first time, I didn't really 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:36.459 100 % understand what was going on, but I just 00:04:36.459 --> 00:04:38.500 had this feeling that it was something special 00:04:38.500 --> 00:04:41.800 and interesting that I wanted to go back to and 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:44.439 that I wanted to put the effort into understanding 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:49.819 more. And I think it was the same with Ghostlight, 00:04:49.860 --> 00:04:58.480 that it wasn't intended to be so hard to figure 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.350 out. maybe something that happened along the 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:03.709 way in production where things got shortened 00:05:03.709 --> 00:05:07.649 and it got squashed down and bits were lost. 00:05:08.029 --> 00:05:09.990 And I feel like almost the same has happened 00:05:09.990 --> 00:05:13.949 with a lot of episodes in this season of Doctor 00:05:13.949 --> 00:05:17.970 Who. But it's, I mean, I completely agree with 00:05:17.970 --> 00:05:21.350 you. You know, I said, obviously, I got kind 00:05:21.350 --> 00:05:23.250 of big Finnish vibes from it, you know, some 00:05:23.250 --> 00:05:25.689 of the more experimental monthly range stuff. 00:05:25.790 --> 00:05:27.949 But at the same time, you're right, Ghostlight 00:05:27.949 --> 00:05:30.920 is a... is a great example, and I suppose Warrior's 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:33.620 Gate is the other one that comes to mind immediately. 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:37.259 Episodes that, it's all there, like everything 00:05:37.259 --> 00:05:39.579 is there, it's all available for you to figure 00:05:39.579 --> 00:05:41.339 out, it's all there for you to piece together, 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:44.519 but maybe it just takes more than one go, more 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:46.980 than one watch. It's asking questions of you 00:05:46.980 --> 00:05:50.680 as a viewer, it's giving you things to interpret, 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:54.120 and some very sort of abstract ideas and concepts 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.850 in there. And that's great. I don't want Doctor 00:05:57.850 --> 00:06:00.189 Who to do that every week. Sometimes I do just 00:06:00.189 --> 00:06:02.769 want Monster Bad, Rundown, Corridor, press big 00:06:02.769 --> 00:06:06.370 red button to make it all go away. But Doctor 00:06:06.370 --> 00:06:09.250 Who's very guilty, well, new Doctor Who, is very 00:06:09.250 --> 00:06:13.550 guilty of having a bit of a mid -season lull. 00:06:14.350 --> 00:06:17.769 And it doesn't seem to be happening here. We've 00:06:17.769 --> 00:06:21.110 just had two very good, very enjoyable mid -season 00:06:21.110 --> 00:06:24.319 episodes. I really do think this series is going 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:27.819 from strength to strength. And this episode is 00:06:27.819 --> 00:06:31.459 just an example that, you know, not everything 00:06:31.459 --> 00:06:34.500 does have to be directly linked to the ongoing 00:06:34.500 --> 00:06:36.360 storyline. I know we're sort of playing with 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:39.519 the themes of gods and storytelling and that 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:41.199 kind of thing, which we've had quite a bit of. 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:43.939 So we're still playing in the same themes, but 00:06:43.939 --> 00:06:46.060 we're not necessarily linking anything directly 00:06:46.060 --> 00:06:48.680 to the current storyline. You know, there were 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.829 references to gods, but these gods weren't. It's 00:06:51.829 --> 00:06:55.370 a different type of gods. Yeah. Toymaker and 00:06:55.370 --> 00:07:01.069 Sutec, they were sort of... Well, they were Earth 00:07:01.069 --> 00:07:03.129 -based, because they talked about the number 00:07:03.129 --> 00:07:04.850 of people affected, and they didn't talk about 00:07:04.850 --> 00:07:07.290 the whole universe. I think he talked about the 00:07:07.290 --> 00:07:09.870 population of Earth. So it was almost like these 00:07:09.870 --> 00:07:14.430 were semi -mythological beings that tied very 00:07:14.430 --> 00:07:16.750 specifically to the cultural history of Earth. 00:07:17.539 --> 00:07:20.720 That it wasn't the SUTEC thing of they are these 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:23.980 universe -spanning aliens that are worshipped 00:07:23.980 --> 00:07:30.480 on many worlds. It was Earth deities. Yeah, which, 00:07:30.899 --> 00:07:33.920 like I say, it means we're still playing with 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:36.240 those themes, but we're doing it in a slightly 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.800 more, in some ways slightly more grounded, in 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:42.759 other ways slightly more fairytale -like, I guess. 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.019 But the whole thing definitely sort of played 00:07:47.019 --> 00:07:49.720 with the idea of fairy tales and folk tales and 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:53.160 that kind of thing. And I thought that was good. 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:55.259 I liked seeing that in Doctor Who and I liked 00:07:55.259 --> 00:07:58.500 seeing it done that way in Doctor Who because 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:02.420 it's very easy to be a bit too on the nose with 00:08:02.420 --> 00:08:05.800 the idea of a fairy tale maybe or, you know, 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:08.620 linking things to a myth. You know, we've had, 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:12.199 I don't know, Underworld is just the retelling 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:15.209 of a Greek myth. Horns of Nymon is and all that 00:08:15.209 --> 00:08:17.970 kind of thing. And it's just a sci -fi retelling. 00:08:17.970 --> 00:08:20.529 This wasn't that. This was very much based in 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:24.769 the Doctor Who universe and the way it is and 00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:27.930 the way we understand it. And I did particularly 00:08:27.930 --> 00:08:35.570 enjoy that. I also liked the fact that the setting 00:08:35.570 --> 00:08:40.120 was significant. um lagos but it wasn't linked 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:42.940 to any sort of historical event usually we visit 00:08:42.940 --> 00:08:46.440 somewhere like that it's linked to some historical 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.720 idea or figure or event and we we didn't have 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.379 that it just happened to be the place where the 00:08:54.379 --> 00:08:57.919 doctor was this week um and i liked that as well 00:08:57.919 --> 00:08:59.980 you know it let the setting live and breathe 00:08:59.980 --> 00:09:02.379 because it was about the setting and not not 00:09:02.379 --> 00:09:07.240 a person um Which, again, Doctor Who's very guilty 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:11.080 of hooking things like this to an individual, 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:13.840 a historical individual or whatever. Or an event 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:18.299 like Partition with Demons of the Punjab, which 00:09:18.299 --> 00:09:22.659 I liked as an episode. Yes. And it did have characters 00:09:22.659 --> 00:09:26.000 as well to give it that human dimension, but 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:29.419 it was a story about Partition and the effect 00:09:29.419 --> 00:09:36.370 on people. Yeah, very much so. Whereas this didn't 00:09:36.370 --> 00:09:39.470 feel the need to do that. This had its own thing 00:09:39.470 --> 00:09:43.429 to do, but I thought it used the setting very 00:09:43.429 --> 00:09:45.950 effectively. I thought it used it very well and 00:09:45.950 --> 00:09:53.129 kind of let us explore the Doctor's, what the 00:09:53.129 --> 00:09:57.009 race he appears as now, I suppose. It's allowed 00:09:57.009 --> 00:09:59.029 for a bit of conversation about that, which has 00:09:59.029 --> 00:10:03.429 been brushed. You know, brushed past, brushed 00:10:03.429 --> 00:10:06.129 around, brushed over, I guess, is being mentioned 00:10:06.129 --> 00:10:10.190 in passing, but we've never had any kind of sort 00:10:10.190 --> 00:10:12.509 of real acknowledgement of it. And, you know, 00:10:12.509 --> 00:10:15.389 how the doctor feels as though certain people 00:10:15.389 --> 00:10:18.029 do treat him differently now. And this is something 00:10:18.029 --> 00:10:20.129 we missed in the Jodie Whitter career, I think, 00:10:20.149 --> 00:10:23.370 as well. I think we maybe needed something, you 00:10:23.370 --> 00:10:26.009 know, we never really explored the fact that 00:10:26.009 --> 00:10:28.470 the doctor was a woman. There's little bits. 00:10:28.470 --> 00:10:30.629 There was a little jokey moment. And then like 00:10:30.629 --> 00:10:33.330 in the Witchbinders, there was a bit more to 00:10:33.330 --> 00:10:35.470 it. But yeah, I definitely would have liked more 00:10:35.470 --> 00:10:39.370 of that. I'm completely speculating, but I wonder 00:10:39.370 --> 00:10:42.350 if it was like an anxiety. And maybe there's 00:10:42.350 --> 00:10:44.190 something about, I liked her costume as well, 00:10:44.210 --> 00:10:46.330 but maybe there was something about that filtering 00:10:46.330 --> 00:10:48.789 into her costume choice of, oh, let's make it 00:10:48.789 --> 00:10:51.509 something kind of cool looking, but also potentially 00:10:51.509 --> 00:10:57.149 a bit androgynous in terms of silhouette. And 00:10:57.149 --> 00:10:58.649 maybe there was the same thing with engaging 00:10:58.649 --> 00:11:00.710 with those ideas. But I feel like they've done 00:11:00.710 --> 00:11:02.870 it a fair bit in this season, like with Lux, 00:11:03.049 --> 00:11:06.870 setting it up. There was, I think, just the right 00:11:06.870 --> 00:11:08.929 amount there and then talking about it a bit 00:11:08.929 --> 00:11:12.429 more explicitly here and the conversation with 00:11:12.429 --> 00:11:18.850 Belinda as well to bring it out a bit more. Yeah, 00:11:18.870 --> 00:11:22.350 it's good to see that it's maybe been a slow 00:11:22.350 --> 00:11:26.639 journey, but we are acknowledging. um the fact 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:29.440 that the doctor's not just a white bloke anymore 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:33.460 um and that that it should be doing we should 00:11:33.460 --> 00:11:36.360 be doing that you know it's people are perceived 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:39.980 differently based on whatever characteristic 00:11:39.980 --> 00:11:43.779 you want to name and therefore the doctor is 00:11:43.779 --> 00:11:45.700 able to change those characteristics therefore 00:11:45.700 --> 00:11:49.259 the doctor will be perceived differently um so 00:11:49.259 --> 00:11:51.159 it's definitely something that should be explored 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:58.940 and i'm i'm glad we've done that So one drawback 00:11:58.940 --> 00:12:03.000 I can think of with this episode, it was doing 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:06.899 an awful lot, it was giving the audience a lot 00:12:06.899 --> 00:12:10.000 to think about, but I'm kind of concerned that 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.679 Belinda got relegated to the background a bit 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:15.419 here. She spent a fair chunk in the TARDIS, she 00:12:15.419 --> 00:12:18.759 comes out of the TARDIS, she wanders round, she 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.419 meets... For some reason, one of the kids from 00:12:22.419 --> 00:12:24.539 Space Babies, we haven't quite figured that one 00:12:24.539 --> 00:12:30.740 out yet, and then enters the barbershop and doesn't 00:12:30.740 --> 00:12:34.000 do particularly much from that point onwards. 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:38.740 And it's fine. We've had episodes before where 00:12:38.740 --> 00:12:41.600 Companion has been sidelined, Doctor has been 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:46.419 sidelined. But again, it's an eight -episode 00:12:46.419 --> 00:12:50.490 series. We had an episode last week where Belinda 00:12:50.490 --> 00:12:56.570 was in one scene. I feel as though that we're 00:12:56.570 --> 00:13:00.070 nearly three quarters of the way through the 00:13:00.070 --> 00:13:05.269 series and for a quarter of it, we've not really 00:13:05.269 --> 00:13:10.309 spent any time with this new character, which, 00:13:10.570 --> 00:13:12.690 you know, a bit of a concern in a longer season. 00:13:12.789 --> 00:13:15.429 It wouldn't bother me at all, even in a 13 -episode 00:13:15.429 --> 00:13:19.399 season. I probably wouldn't even notice. But 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:22.419 it's the fact that of the, what have we had now, 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:25.940 seven, six, five, five episodes? Five episodes 00:13:25.940 --> 00:13:29.940 we've had. Belinda's not really been around for 00:13:29.940 --> 00:13:32.220 two of them, or she was barely in one at all 00:13:32.220 --> 00:13:35.899 and hasn't had much to do here. I know that I've 00:13:35.899 --> 00:13:39.220 sort of complained about a number of episodes 00:13:39.220 --> 00:13:41.039 in the season before, and I know it's a very, 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:43.600 very easy thing to do as a fan, go, ooh, I want 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.649 more. And I'm well aware there's probably a very 00:13:46.649 --> 00:13:48.669 good production reason we're only getting eight. 00:13:48.710 --> 00:13:52.350 I'm judging by how fantastic the series looks 00:13:52.350 --> 00:13:54.929 that a lot more work is going into those eight 00:13:54.929 --> 00:13:58.549 episodes than perhaps went into 13, 20 years 00:13:58.549 --> 00:14:07.909 ago. But I really do feel that it's costing getting 00:14:07.909 --> 00:14:10.350 to know companions. And we've had two companions 00:14:10.350 --> 00:14:14.360 in. or 18 episodes by the time this series ends. 00:14:15.259 --> 00:14:18.399 And I still don't feel as though we got to know 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.279 Ruby. In fact, I feel as though we got to know 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.580 Ruby quite a lot more last week, as I said, when 00:14:22.580 --> 00:14:26.639 we were discussing it. And I have the same concern 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:31.340 about Belinda. Like, really, we've had three 00:14:31.340 --> 00:14:33.879 and a bit episodes of her at this point, and 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:36.710 we are... heading towards the end of the series 00:14:36.710 --> 00:14:39.389 now. It could well be that, considering Russell 00:14:39.389 --> 00:14:42.009 T Davies has said there's some kind of reveal 00:14:42.009 --> 00:14:44.830 in next week's episode, it could well be that 00:14:44.830 --> 00:14:50.950 we're kind of stuck in that kind of finale zone 00:14:50.950 --> 00:14:54.809 where there isn't much room for change or development 00:14:54.809 --> 00:14:58.309 or that kind of thing. And I just hope we've 00:14:58.309 --> 00:15:02.230 not missed an opportunity to get to know Belinda 00:15:02.230 --> 00:15:06.559 better. I guess with Ruby we got... We had an 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:09.279 episode that was completely Ruby -based in the 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:10.919 last season and we did get to know her a little 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:14.320 bit more. We've not had that with Belinda and 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:18.659 evidence would suggest we're not going to because 00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:21.919 the next three episodes appear as though they're 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:24.399 going to be quite significant and I don't think 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:26.159 we're going to take a week off to just hang out 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:31.610 with Belinda for a bit. Yeah, it's... agree and 00:15:31.610 --> 00:15:36.230 especially as I think I've enjoyed her character 00:15:36.230 --> 00:15:39.929 a lot more I think she's been given a bit more 00:15:39.929 --> 00:15:44.409 dimension than Ruby from the start I think she's 00:15:44.409 --> 00:15:47.629 been better served by her first few stories and 00:15:47.629 --> 00:15:51.549 script to give her a bit more depth at the same 00:15:51.549 --> 00:15:55.070 time we've kind of had this rerun and recap at 00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:58.769 the start of every episode now of her reminding 00:15:58.769 --> 00:16:01.029 the doctor to get us home and it feels like almost 00:16:01.029 --> 00:16:03.129 like a recap for the audience's benefit in case 00:16:03.129 --> 00:16:06.149 you're just tuning in that week to like remind 00:16:06.149 --> 00:16:08.289 us of the setup of the show like the intro to 00:16:08.289 --> 00:16:12.389 quantum leap and just just uh just like restate 00:16:12.389 --> 00:16:16.529 the mission of getting a home um and i see the 00:16:16.529 --> 00:16:18.649 logic of that but i also hope that we don't keep 00:16:18.649 --> 00:16:21.809 hammering that too much and we just do continue 00:16:21.809 --> 00:16:25.029 to see more dimensions to her in the last three 00:16:25.029 --> 00:16:28.000 episodes But I think you're right. Like, if this 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:33.399 was like a 13 -episode series or Belinda was 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.659 sticking around for more than one season, I don't 00:16:36.659 --> 00:16:40.120 think there was much need for her to be in the 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:43.080 second half of the story. She wasn't bad when 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:47.159 she turned up, and she was given a very sort 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:50.759 of active role and had some impact on the story. 00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:53.720 But it was quite, I felt like she slipped into 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:58.049 quite a generic companion mode. And I don't feel 00:16:58.049 --> 00:16:59.889 like loads of time has passed, but she almost 00:16:59.889 --> 00:17:04.369 had a lot of knowledge and skill that was very 00:17:04.369 --> 00:17:06.750 doctorish, and I didn't know how that developed 00:17:06.750 --> 00:17:10.150 so quickly. Have we had a time jump or a gap, 00:17:10.250 --> 00:17:12.930 do you think, at some point? Maybe after episode 00:17:12.930 --> 00:17:18.190 three? I get the impression that maybe, yeah, 00:17:18.230 --> 00:17:22.910 after the well, and maybe they were doing... 00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:28.319 other stuff while Lucky Day was going on. It 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:30.380 feels like we've had a jump, but she's still 00:17:30.380 --> 00:17:32.039 saying, Doctor, you need to get me home now, 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:33.920 so it doesn't feel like it's been a big jump. 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:40.680 But tonally, maybe we've had room for a few novels 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:43.460 in there or something like that. I think there 00:17:43.460 --> 00:17:46.220 must be something, because she's not had a rest 00:17:46.220 --> 00:17:49.549 since Robot Revolution. And she's human. She 00:17:49.549 --> 00:17:52.369 needs to sleep. And also just tonally, the well 00:17:52.369 --> 00:17:58.589 was pretty traumatic. And it feels like there 00:17:58.589 --> 00:18:00.529 must have been some sort of gap between that 00:18:00.529 --> 00:18:04.670 and then kind of the way things feel in this 00:18:04.670 --> 00:18:07.750 episode. I don't think the fact that she got 00:18:07.750 --> 00:18:10.710 shot in the well has been referenced at all since, 00:18:10.789 --> 00:18:13.690 has it? Oh, yeah. I didn't know. I was thinking 00:18:13.690 --> 00:18:15.170 about just the episode in general. But yeah, 00:18:15.190 --> 00:18:19.940 she got shot and she died. Yeah, didn't die, 00:18:20.019 --> 00:18:23.900 but got shot and had to recover from getting 00:18:23.900 --> 00:18:28.079 shot. Yeah. Even with sort of TARDIS medicine, 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:32.680 I'd like to think getting shot on an alien planet 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:34.579 when you're being stalked by some horror creature 00:18:34.579 --> 00:18:37.839 is going to traumatise somebody a little bit. 00:18:38.019 --> 00:18:40.079 Like, that's the sort of thing you'd expect to 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:42.799 happen. But, yeah, it's not been mentioned again. 00:18:43.410 --> 00:18:46.309 Even to even mention the Mara at the start of 00:18:46.309 --> 00:18:50.170 Mordred Undead, you know. Yeah, so it feels like 00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:52.650 the big finish box set might start there and 00:18:52.650 --> 00:18:56.849 she is a little bit understandably traumatised 00:18:56.849 --> 00:19:00.190 and then get to the point of where she's a bit 00:19:00.190 --> 00:19:03.089 more relaxed and happy and maybe time has passed 00:19:03.089 --> 00:19:05.690 for her to watch the Doctor and pick some stuff 00:19:05.690 --> 00:19:12.259 up from him. I'd hope so. Yeah, it's feeling 00:19:12.259 --> 00:19:15.960 very rushed, which, fine, we knew that was going 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:20.640 to happen going into it. I wasn't 100 % convinced 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.920 I wanted a new companion in this series. I'd 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:24.559 have been quite happy if we'd have just carried 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:28.279 on with Ruby as we did last series, you know, 00:19:28.299 --> 00:19:31.259 picked up, second sit. But I know Russell T. 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:34.299 Davis likes to change his regulars around, and 00:19:34.299 --> 00:19:37.720 Belinda is a brilliant character. I don't want 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:40.700 to play the... Who's the better companion game? 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:44.720 But I think just in terms of how the characters 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:47.259 are written, I think there's a lot more potential 00:19:47.259 --> 00:19:49.740 with Belinda than there is with Ruby. Just my 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:52.839 concern is we're not going to get to properly 00:19:52.839 --> 00:20:00.220 see that potential. Maybe, because we're most 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:02.339 of the way through the series now and haven't 00:20:02.339 --> 00:20:09.680 spent that much time with her still. You never 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.599 know. Maybe we'll get something a bit more Belinda 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:14.880 -centric. Well, you mentioned I got the stuff 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:19.119 for the finale, and I was thinking just after 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:21.039 this episode, oh, you mentioned the Space Babies 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.920 as well, and I was just thinking how all of these, 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:27.339 there are quite a few lingering threads and mysteries 00:20:27.339 --> 00:20:29.559 that need to be wrapped up in the next three 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:32.180 episodes, or at least acknowledged, you would 00:20:32.180 --> 00:20:35.440 hope. So Mrs. Flood obviously feels like a given. 00:20:36.619 --> 00:20:39.259 now we have this new space babies thing we have 00:20:39.259 --> 00:20:43.099 the boss and is that the same as mrs flood or 00:20:43.099 --> 00:20:47.299 is that someone different um we have like what's 00:20:47.299 --> 00:20:48.920 happened to the earth we've got no indication 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.480 of what's actually going on there and presumably 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.579 reverse that um i'm sure there's more like i 00:20:56.579 --> 00:20:59.380 think i think it seemed i expect ruby and conrad 00:20:59.380 --> 00:21:02.500 are both going to be back uh mel is going to 00:21:02.500 --> 00:21:07.819 be in it um It feels like a lot, and I'm expecting 00:21:07.819 --> 00:21:09.819 a lot of this won't be in the Interstellar Song 00:21:09.819 --> 00:21:13.099 Contest, because a lot of that's going to be 00:21:13.099 --> 00:21:15.380 in space, and some of these elements are quite 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:18.359 Earth -based. So that's a lot to squeeze into 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:21.779 the last two episodes, and yeah, I think you're 00:21:21.779 --> 00:21:24.079 right. How much space does that leave for any 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:28.019 detailed introspection or character development 00:21:28.019 --> 00:21:31.460 for Belinda? Have we had confirmation of the 00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:35.319 length of the final episode yet? Because I know 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:37.200 it is getting a cinema screening, isn't it? Has 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.980 that said how long it is? It probably says somewhere, 00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:46.220 but I think if it was longer than 50, 55 minutes, 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.519 we would have heard. That's what I'm thinking. 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:52.619 Is it going to be one of those, you know, actually 00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:55.759 it's 75 minutes type things, but there's no indication, 00:21:56.019 --> 00:22:00.009 is there? No, and I feel like if... like you 00:22:00.009 --> 00:22:02.410 say the cinema listings must be up and if if 00:22:02.410 --> 00:22:04.210 it was that sort of running time i feel like 00:22:04.210 --> 00:22:07.529 we would know by now people will be talking about 00:22:07.529 --> 00:22:12.529 it i'd assume um and and these episodes have 00:22:12.529 --> 00:22:16.849 run quite short like uh was it children where 00:22:16.849 --> 00:22:19.549 we tended to get like longer episodes that were 00:22:19.549 --> 00:22:22.789 like bumping up against an hour sometimes and 00:22:22.789 --> 00:22:25.170 it feels like we've gone the other like weirdly 00:22:25.170 --> 00:22:26.690 in the age of streaming we've gone the other 00:22:26.690 --> 00:22:29.940 way to like squeeze into like a very specific 00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:37.380 broadcast television slot of 45 minutes I'm just 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:40.299 trying to find the episode lengths now because 00:22:40.299 --> 00:22:46.579 yes I think you're right yeah 46, 44, 47 46 and 00:22:46.579 --> 00:22:51.359 47 we've had so far so they've all beaten 45 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:56.289 minutes and I remember the days when an episode 00:22:56.289 --> 00:22:58.809 would come in at 42 minutes and, oh, that's it, 00:22:58.869 --> 00:23:00.869 it's a disaster and the series is being cancelled 00:23:00.869 --> 00:23:05.130 because it's three minutes short. I don't know, 00:23:05.289 --> 00:23:08.470 is this... I wonder if this is, rather than broadcast 00:23:08.470 --> 00:23:11.289 schedules, given that the international distributor 00:23:11.289 --> 00:23:15.990 is Disney +, is this again like the anxiety of 00:23:15.990 --> 00:23:19.029 holding people's attention and just, is this 00:23:19.029 --> 00:23:21.740 like some sort of limit that... Russell T Davies 00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:23.779 has set for himself or maybe it's budget as well 00:23:23.779 --> 00:23:27.319 but like when you're making when you're making 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:30.859 it with like a heightened budget and production 00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:34.339 quality an extra five minutes costs a lot of 00:23:34.339 --> 00:23:39.700 money well yeah there's that and I mean time 00:23:39.700 --> 00:23:42.279 time with streaming just doesn't matter like 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:44.720 you know we've got a new series of Stranger Things 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:46.660 coming this year and we've basically been told 00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:50.640 it's It's eight movies. It's eight films lengthwise. 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:57.079 Yeah. So, yeah, things have seemed to have got 00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.059 longer with streaming, but then again, at the 00:23:59.059 --> 00:24:04.339 same time, we still seem to be sticking fairly 00:24:04.339 --> 00:24:08.660 rigidly to 45, 50 minutes. I don't know. Can 00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:11.539 anyone say how long an episode of Doctor Who 00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:14.420 is now? I suppose it still has to be broadcast 00:24:14.420 --> 00:24:18.720 on BBC One. That is... that's still its home 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:23.740 it is but bbc does not because bbc is commercial 00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:27.900 free um the programming doesn't line up in nice 00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:29.980 neat hourly slots anyway you know if it's like 00:24:29.980 --> 00:24:35.000 um and even channel four doesn't seem to line 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.900 up neatly uh it's more the american networks 00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:41.140 where like you know programming starts on the 00:24:41.140 --> 00:24:43.799 hour and you have this amount of time and the 00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:46.400 rest is sold to advertisers and that's all quite 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.720 constrained so because like yeah like with the 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.420 Chibnall area we had like things growing a bit 00:24:52.420 --> 00:24:56.920 longer and that and I remember like there were 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.000 quite a few episodes where we had them a bit 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.039 longer and they overran like the series three 00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.200 finale and they would be edited down in other 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:08.960 regions because those other regions had the that 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.980 sort of restrictions on that we've sold that 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:17.710 advertising space I think it was the Series 3 00:25:17.710 --> 00:25:19.289 finale where there were scenes that were cut 00:25:19.289 --> 00:25:23.150 out for the American broadcast, I think. Yeah. 00:25:24.390 --> 00:25:28.730 I'll never forget how... The one that weirded 00:25:28.730 --> 00:25:30.890 me out the most of how they managed to get away 00:25:30.890 --> 00:25:36.769 with it was the Series 9. Both finale episodes 00:25:36.769 --> 00:25:41.579 were quite long. I remember them going... Heaven 00:25:41.579 --> 00:25:44.240 Sent is this long and Hellbent is even longer. 00:25:44.259 --> 00:25:48.619 It's this long. So we actually got two extended 00:25:48.619 --> 00:25:51.359 length episodes, which at the time, we're only 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:54.819 talking 10 years ago, was virtually unheard of. 00:25:57.420 --> 00:26:00.859 That's two extra long episodes. And like you 00:26:00.859 --> 00:26:03.900 say, in the Chibnall era, we got spoiled a bit 00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:09.140 by episode lengths. They said... You know, episodes 00:26:09.140 --> 00:26:11.039 are 50 minutes now. We're doing fewer episodes, 00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:15.240 but episodes are longer. But here it seems to 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.019 be fewer episodes and shorter episodes. I'm not 00:26:18.019 --> 00:26:22.220 entirely sure. Like you say, it could be a budget 00:26:22.220 --> 00:26:26.599 thing. And also, I think part of it should be 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:31.240 down to how long does the story take to tell? 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.740 This isn't classic Doctor Who anymore. It's not. 00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:39.269 we've got to have a cliffhanger every 25 minutes. 00:26:40.750 --> 00:26:45.450 Yeah. You know, it's not even 10, 15 years ago 00:26:45.450 --> 00:26:48.009 where we have to have a cliffhanger every 45 00:26:48.009 --> 00:26:52.190 minutes. The format of the show has changed. 00:26:52.210 --> 00:26:56.670 It has evolved. Like I say, I suspect it's just 00:26:56.670 --> 00:27:00.329 the number of sort of working hours that have 00:27:00.329 --> 00:27:04.140 to go into. making it look as good as it does. 00:27:04.259 --> 00:27:06.380 And we've repeatedly talked about how good this 00:27:06.380 --> 00:27:11.819 series looks. You know, a lot of people said 00:27:11.819 --> 00:27:13.819 that the Disney money didn't appear on screen 00:27:13.819 --> 00:27:16.420 last year. Well, it sure as hell has this year. 00:27:16.539 --> 00:27:19.259 In every single episode, it's looked exceptional. 00:27:20.180 --> 00:27:23.119 And I sort of see that. But then at the same 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.019 time, like if I was extending some of these episodes 00:27:26.019 --> 00:27:30.480 by five, ten minutes, a lot of that would be 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.630 like... character moments or dialogue heavy scenes 00:27:34.630 --> 00:27:40.450 so not not talking like loads of effects and 00:27:40.450 --> 00:27:44.250 you know expensive setups but so that's what 00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:46.349 makes me think maybe is it actually more about 00:27:46.349 --> 00:27:48.509 like a self -imposed limit of no we're going 00:27:48.509 --> 00:27:52.410 to hold people's attention and okay and and to 00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:55.809 be fair i would prefer something is a bit short 00:27:55.809 --> 00:27:59.710 and leaves you wanting more to to to use the 00:27:59.710 --> 00:28:04.839 big finish example or even some classic Doctor 00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:09.319 Who, to pad things out a bit longer than the 00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:14.420 story deserves or the story needs. And, you know, 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:17.240 to sort of artificially hold yourself to longer 00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:21.259 running time and go the other direction. Which 00:28:21.259 --> 00:28:23.339 I suppose must be an easy trap to fall into. 00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:27.920 Well, yeah. I mean, if you're a writer for Big 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:30.759 Finish, you're given the brief of... all of our 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:34.519 stories have to be X number of CDs long, or you 00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:36.299 have to fill this box set, you have to fill these 00:28:36.299 --> 00:28:40.559 slots. You can't write a story that's like three 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:44.480 quarters of a CD long. It has to be, you know, 00:28:44.539 --> 00:28:48.180 that's 60 minutes. I know they play around a 00:28:48.180 --> 00:28:50.420 little bit with like sometimes squeezing three 00:28:50.420 --> 00:28:54.140 short episodes onto a disc, but it's generally, 00:28:54.259 --> 00:28:57.759 they're pretty, they're pretty like, you know, 00:28:57.779 --> 00:29:02.099 it's an hour's worth of story. on each CD I find 00:29:02.099 --> 00:29:04.700 it amazing that it's still sort of dictated by 00:29:04.700 --> 00:29:10.880 CD length in 2025 because it can there can't 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.420 be much audio drama produced now that is dictated 00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:19.400 by can we fit it on a CD I really can't but it's 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:22.039 Doctor Who there'll be like that core of people 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:28.339 who will complain if Like, you know, some releases 00:29:28.339 --> 00:29:32.539 go digital only or, you know, they can't continue 00:29:32.539 --> 00:29:34.759 collecting. Which we have seen. Yeah, they are 00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:36.920 announcing digital only releases now and there 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:39.160 are people that are not buying them because they 00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:42.200 can't have them on. Yeah, yeah. They're very 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:46.119 tentative. Yeah, and you can tell, it's like 00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:49.859 with like Recast, they're sort of like, you can 00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:52.059 tell that Big Finish are a bit anxious about 00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:53.980 jumping into that and they're just trying it 00:29:53.980 --> 00:29:58.140 to see how people react. for really going for 00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:01.359 it. I suppose that's the other thing that sort 00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:04.319 of dictates Big Finish. It's what do people buy? 00:30:04.460 --> 00:30:07.960 What will people... Yeah, they're much more constrained 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.279 by that because you can put something out on 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.220 the BBC and there aren't advertisers to keep 00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:17.180 happy. Viewing figures aren't the be -all and 00:30:17.180 --> 00:30:20.400 end -all. It's about doing what the charter says 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:22.779 you're supposed to do. It's not just about numbers 00:30:22.779 --> 00:30:26.180 of viewers. so you have a lot more flexibility. 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.019 Whereas Big Finish, I think as I understand it, 00:30:30.099 --> 00:30:34.119 they put out a lot of stuff, but it sounds like 00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:37.640 their margins are quite narrow, and so they have 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.759 to be a bit more, maybe not mercenary, but they 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:44.440 have to be a bit more reactive to, well, people 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:46.039 will buy more stuff if there's a Dalek on the 00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:49.140 cover, so we'll put out a lot of Dalek stories. 00:30:49.539 --> 00:30:52.880 It still lets them do good stuff. within those 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:55.140 constraints but i think they are more constrained 00:30:55.140 --> 00:31:01.980 than people making doctor who on tv and of course 00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:05.799 they're also constrained by doctor who on tv 00:31:05.799 --> 00:31:08.819 as well yeah what they have what they're allowed 00:31:08.819 --> 00:31:11.460 to do what because they can't because considering 00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:13.680 what they do produce and considering some of 00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.660 the stuff they come out with it's actually a 00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:17.720 minor miracle that it's as good as it is because 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:22.980 they do have you know imagine if the tv series 00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:28.339 were to look at facebook twitter gallifrey base 00:31:28.339 --> 00:31:32.480 and gauge what it had to do based on that which 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:34.380 i'm not saying is what big finish does you know 00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:36.640 big finish looks at what sells and what doesn't 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:39.980 and goes okay as you say daleks are on the cover 00:31:39.980 --> 00:31:41.940 of that one it's sold better than anything else 00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:46.579 we'll put more daleks on covers um and the opposite 00:31:46.579 --> 00:31:49.400 way around where like what, you know, stuff that 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:51.259 I really enjoyed, like the novel adaptations, 00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:56.460 doesn't continue because people weren't buying 00:31:56.460 --> 00:31:57.900 them in the numbers that they buy other stuff. 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.680 Or Fogarty is a big example, a big one as well. 00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:05.160 Like, you know, Chris and Roz, they attempted 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:09.519 to bring them back, but seems like people just 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:13.740 have something, don't, yeah, the numbers aren't 00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:16.539 there for those, those like comics and books 00:32:16.539 --> 00:32:19.069 characters coming in. I suppose at the end of 00:32:19.069 --> 00:32:24.269 the day, you know, they originated in a series 00:32:24.269 --> 00:32:29.029 of 30 -odd -year -old novels that are very difficult 00:32:29.029 --> 00:32:33.170 to get hold of. There's an awful lot of, like, 00:32:33.269 --> 00:32:36.130 if you look at the list of new adventures and 00:32:36.130 --> 00:32:38.329 you've never read any of them, it's quite overwhelming. 00:32:38.369 --> 00:32:40.930 As somebody that's not actually read all that 00:32:40.930 --> 00:32:45.099 many. I can kind of get it. I can kind of people 00:32:45.099 --> 00:32:49.019 go, I kind of get why people go, yeah, I'm just 00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:53.400 not engaging with that. Which is a shame because 00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:56.339 I quite liked the novel adaptations. I quite 00:32:56.339 --> 00:32:58.400 like Chris and Rose, especially the way they 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:02.559 have been sort of interpreted on audio. Because 00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:05.319 they have, maybe it was to do with the order 00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:07.559 as well, but they have done their origin story. 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:09.599 I don't think it was their first audio, but they 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:12.839 have done. original sins so like with bernice 00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:16.880 they've done an adaptation of lohan war so even 00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.440 if you if you don't track down those novels you 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.119 can still get a performed introduction to these 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:30.839 to these components yeah absolutely um but but 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:33.920 dragging it dragging us back to um the story 00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:40.890 and the engine um it's I hope that Belinda doesn't 00:33:40.890 --> 00:33:43.049 become that kind of character, actually, you 00:33:43.049 --> 00:33:45.490 know, a character that people don't go for in 00:33:45.490 --> 00:33:48.509 spin -off because we didn't really see or hear 00:33:48.509 --> 00:33:51.269 much from her on screen. Like, she's a great 00:33:51.269 --> 00:33:53.710 character, just my concern is she's been a little 00:33:53.710 --> 00:33:58.670 bit underserved. That may all change in the next 00:33:58.670 --> 00:34:02.789 few episodes. She's been compared to Tegan, who's 00:34:02.789 --> 00:34:08.880 quite a well -regarded character now. But I think 00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:12.079 at certain points was dismissed as the one who's 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:15.519 always complaining and just doesn't want to be 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:20.099 there. I think there's a lot more to both Tegan 00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:24.500 and Belinda. I think we've had a very good reassessment 00:34:24.500 --> 00:34:29.340 of Tegan over the last few years. I do remember 00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:31.820 a time where everybody just dismissed 80s who 00:34:31.820 --> 00:34:34.079 was dreadful and anybody involved with it was 00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:37.369 also dreadful and therefore Tegan was... lugged 00:34:37.369 --> 00:34:41.150 in on the list of worst companions ever. Even 00:34:41.150 --> 00:34:46.309 worse because she dared to not be in love with 00:34:46.309 --> 00:34:50.989 travelling in the TARDIS and maybe that set some 00:34:50.989 --> 00:34:56.090 fans against her. Those fans who would fantasise 00:34:56.090 --> 00:34:58.190 about going off in the TARDIS with the Doctor 00:34:58.190 --> 00:35:00.750 when they were children and there's this person 00:35:00.750 --> 00:35:02.389 who doesn't want to be there. What's her problem? 00:35:02.690 --> 00:35:07.329 I also wonder if The fact it took Janet Fielding 00:35:07.329 --> 00:35:11.650 a while to start regularly doing Big Finish contributes 00:35:11.650 --> 00:35:14.750 to that as well. Like a lot of people have said 00:35:14.750 --> 00:35:16.530 that, you know, Big Finish has done absolute 00:35:16.530 --> 00:35:20.110 wonders for, you know, The Sixth Doctor and Ace 00:35:20.110 --> 00:35:24.030 and Adric even, you know, another late to Big 00:35:24.030 --> 00:35:25.710 Finish. But nevertheless, we've had some great 00:35:25.710 --> 00:35:29.969 stuff with Adric there now. So I wonder if that's 00:35:29.969 --> 00:35:33.030 kind of a contributing factor as well, like in 00:35:33.030 --> 00:35:35.519 terms of people that are... are looking at the 00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:38.000 ongoing Classy Doctor Who big finish. I wonder 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:43.079 if, you know, there being no new Tegan material 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:49.280 has perhaps skewed the view a little bit. And 00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.840 obviously that's been fixed in the last 10 years. 00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:59.340 Maybe. Nevertheless, it's, you know, Tegan is 00:35:59.340 --> 00:36:01.960 beloved. Tegan came back. Everyone was happy 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:05.420 that Tegan came back. in power at the doctor 00:36:05.420 --> 00:36:09.300 um and i just hope that there's the platform 00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:14.719 for if nothing else more appreciation of belinda 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:17.500 in the future because it kind of doesn't really 00:36:17.500 --> 00:36:20.199 feel like that at the minute there's just not 00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:24.380 much to work with um yeah anyway we'll move on 00:36:24.380 --> 00:36:26.940 because we can keep going on so in circles on 00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:31.840 this one um the doctor then So we've kind of 00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:37.659 mentioned that the Doctor found visiting Lagos, 00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:39.940 he found it as a safe space, the barbershop especially 00:36:39.940 --> 00:36:42.239 was a safe space. It's somewhere he felt comfortable 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.380 going in his current regeneration. I love the 00:36:45.380 --> 00:36:48.380 fact that we are referring to off -screen adventures 00:36:48.380 --> 00:36:53.679 with the 15th Doctor because everything feels 00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.019 like it's happened quickly. Again, I'm complaining 00:36:56.019 --> 00:36:58.159 about shorter episode count. I need to get over 00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:00.889 it. Everything feels like it's happened really 00:37:00.889 --> 00:37:02.969 quickly. It doesn't feel like this Doctor's gone 00:37:02.969 --> 00:37:04.690 off and had loads and loads of adventures. But 00:37:04.690 --> 00:37:08.210 actually, there are some fairly solid gaps in 00:37:08.210 --> 00:37:10.829 his timeline where he could have done and presumably 00:37:10.829 --> 00:37:14.210 did, the biggest one being in between seasons. 00:37:14.550 --> 00:37:16.510 And, you know, we had a Christmas special sort 00:37:16.510 --> 00:37:20.829 of set in that period. So just sort of have you 00:37:20.829 --> 00:37:23.630 any thoughts about the Doctor in this week's 00:37:23.630 --> 00:37:25.869 episode and have we learned a bit about him and 00:37:25.869 --> 00:37:32.250 that sort of thing? Yeah, I think the off -screen 00:37:32.250 --> 00:37:35.710 adventures are good and they add some depth. 00:37:36.030 --> 00:37:40.929 And I don't know, I feel like, I'm finding it 00:37:40.929 --> 00:37:42.670 hard to be specific, but I feel like there's 00:37:42.670 --> 00:37:46.309 more to the Doctor's performance this season. 00:37:48.789 --> 00:37:53.429 Because was season two filmed? I know season 00:37:53.429 --> 00:37:57.110 two was filmed ages ago. Like, how close was 00:37:57.110 --> 00:37:59.050 it to season one? Because it almost feels like 00:37:59.050 --> 00:38:03.289 he's had some time to settle in and to get a 00:38:03.289 --> 00:38:08.429 sort of deeper hold on what his Doctor is. Yeah. 00:38:09.690 --> 00:38:15.150 Yeah, there's definitely been some kind of subtle 00:38:15.150 --> 00:38:16.929 shift in the performance. And we discussed this 00:38:16.929 --> 00:38:19.369 at the start, you know, when we watched The Robot 00:38:19.369 --> 00:38:21.489 Revolution. We kind of discussed this then and 00:38:21.489 --> 00:38:24.070 kind of said, actually, there's not been much 00:38:24.070 --> 00:38:27.519 of a shift, but... Yeah, a few more episodes 00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:32.039 in. I agree with you. He just seems to have gelled 00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:33.760 with the role a bit more. I don't think there's 00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:37.639 been any sort of huge conscious change in the 00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:39.719 way the character's done. It's not like Patrick 00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:43.300 Troughton being a very different Doctor by Tomb 00:38:43.300 --> 00:38:46.619 of the Cybermen than he was in Power of the Daleks. 00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:50.719 But yeah, he certainly feels more comfortable 00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:52.659 in the role. I really don't think there was that 00:38:52.659 --> 00:38:56.039 big a gap between... Filming season. But then 00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:58.480 Christopher Eccleston changed in his season. 00:38:58.579 --> 00:39:01.219 I think I'm trying to track it back, but it might, 00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:03.239 it might even be like broke by production book. 00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:07.539 Like I feel like Eccleston's performance when 00:39:07.539 --> 00:39:09.699 it started in the, in the earliest filmed episodes 00:39:09.699 --> 00:39:13.280 that it was a bit broader. It was a little bit 00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:16.880 more CBBC where, and where he was getting his 00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:20.280 head around the role. And then as time went on, 00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:22.880 his doctor became, there was still some of that. 00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:28.219 lightness and comedy, but it became a bit more 00:39:28.219 --> 00:39:33.960 real and a bit more grounded as he got further 00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:36.280 in. And maybe it's just that same thing. So even 00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:39.679 if season two was filmed right after, it was 00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:41.460 just one of the later production blocks, effectively. 00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:46.840 Yeah, I think every Doctor has settled into the 00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:51.570 character over time. And, you know, writers become 00:39:51.570 --> 00:39:53.809 more confident with how to write the character 00:39:53.809 --> 00:39:57.269 as well. It must be so difficult to come in as 00:39:57.269 --> 00:40:00.130 a guest writer and write for a brand new Doctor 00:40:00.130 --> 00:40:03.150 who hasn't actually appeared on screen yet. I 00:40:03.150 --> 00:40:06.429 know most of the last series was written by Russell 00:40:06.429 --> 00:40:11.349 T Davies, who was obviously trying to steer it 00:40:11.349 --> 00:40:15.389 in a certain direction. But new voices have helped, 00:40:15.489 --> 00:40:18.820 I think, in this case. Definitely for this season, 00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:21.360 I think that's been both for the Doctor and the 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.280 stories, and in general just having that bit 00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:25.159 more of a mix, and having Russell T Davies, I'm 00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:28.400 sure, very closely involved in rewrites to make 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:32.360 it feel cohesive. I think that's throughout both 00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:35.420 the first era and this one. Some of the strongest 00:40:35.420 --> 00:40:38.420 stories are the ones where a writer has come 00:40:38.420 --> 00:40:42.940 with the first draft and those ideas and that 00:40:42.940 --> 00:40:46.539 freshness, and then he's done sometimes very 00:40:46.539 --> 00:40:51.449 extensive. rewrites but sometimes that collaboration 00:40:51.449 --> 00:40:55.130 I'm curious if there's a writer's tale I'm curious 00:40:55.130 --> 00:40:57.829 to know how his process has changed for this 00:40:57.829 --> 00:41:01.650 era and if he's being more hands off or he's 00:41:01.650 --> 00:41:04.429 still working in the exact same way as he did 00:41:04.429 --> 00:41:08.750 the first time around but I mean coming back 00:41:08.750 --> 00:41:11.969 to the Doctor in this episode so I'm seeing that 00:41:11.969 --> 00:41:15.519 bit of a subtle shift from where he was in Church 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:18.780 on Ruby Road, Space Babies, right at the start. 00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.599 And there was moments in Joy to the World where 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:26.460 you got to see some very different sides to him 00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:29.960 as well. But I'm also a bit anxious that potentially 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:33.559 with three episodes left, I don't think this 00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:38.000 Doctor is going to get the type of arc or progression. 00:41:39.059 --> 00:41:41.599 And actually, to be fair, I don't think Jodie 00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:44.269 Whittaker... was well served by this either as 00:41:44.269 --> 00:41:48.010 well by like by ending up a different person 00:41:48.010 --> 00:41:50.230 at the end of their era than they were at the 00:41:50.230 --> 00:41:56.250 start i think 10 11 and 12 all had that in in 00:41:56.250 --> 00:41:59.449 in really interesting ways um 12 being my favorite 00:41:59.449 --> 00:42:03.190 example of that of how he changes so much from 00:42:03.190 --> 00:42:07.030 eight to nine and then to ten um from those seasons 00:42:07.030 --> 00:42:11.980 um but i don't think jodie wetzker or tutor got 00:42:11.980 --> 00:42:15.980 while so far have had anything as dramatic as 00:42:15.980 --> 00:42:22.500 that everyone says the big big moment with the 00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:26.840 12th doctor with capaldi was a zygon inversion 00:42:26.840 --> 00:42:31.280 you know the big the big sort of monologue in 00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:35.079 that that really sort of let us see i mean peter 00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:37.599 capaldi acting at full throttle because there 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:41.710 are a lot of quite reasonable sort of discussions 00:42:41.710 --> 00:42:43.949 about how okay we've got this we've got someone 00:42:43.949 --> 00:42:46.090 who we know is an absolutely phenomenal actor 00:42:46.090 --> 00:42:50.190 who is just not being maybe challenged isn't 00:42:50.190 --> 00:42:52.469 the right word but you know i mean not not being 00:42:52.469 --> 00:42:57.389 given material that necessarily lets them show 00:42:57.389 --> 00:43:00.510 really what they can bring to the table and then 00:43:00.510 --> 00:43:02.909 we suddenly got it in that episode and it was 00:43:02.909 --> 00:43:07.489 kind of a big moment for that doctor And I think 00:43:07.489 --> 00:43:09.769 maybe we need that moment. I think we've had 00:43:09.769 --> 00:43:11.610 a few moments that could have been that moment. 00:43:13.010 --> 00:43:17.170 But going back to, like a stuck record here, 00:43:17.309 --> 00:43:19.309 we've just not seen enough of him. We've just 00:43:19.309 --> 00:43:24.670 not had enough of this doctor on screen. Yeah, 00:43:24.670 --> 00:43:29.409 and maybe he's a doctor who doesn't monologue 00:43:29.409 --> 00:43:32.369 as extensively as Capaldi, who was my favourite. 00:43:34.269 --> 00:43:38.409 who's my favorite doctor i think but um and and 00:43:38.409 --> 00:43:42.269 but i especially with like his final speech where 00:43:42.269 --> 00:43:44.590 he gets like he has two or three regeneration 00:43:44.590 --> 00:43:47.050 speeches layered on top of each other there are 00:43:47.050 --> 00:43:50.070 times when i think that his stuff could have 00:43:50.070 --> 00:43:54.610 been cut down a bit little bit um but like for 00:43:54.610 --> 00:43:58.090 example the speech with conrad that was like 00:43:58.090 --> 00:44:00.409 more understated and maybe that's who this doctor 00:44:00.409 --> 00:44:03.880 is that he isn't as dramatic or over the top 00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:06.179 as some of the previous ones will have been but 00:44:06.179 --> 00:44:08.019 it's almost yeah a bit of that sort of Patrick 00:44:08.019 --> 00:44:11.199 Troughton energy of like being a bit more subtle 00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:14.619 and maybe being a bit scarier because of that 00:44:14.619 --> 00:44:16.820 like Sylvester McCoy had a bit of that sometimes 00:44:16.820 --> 00:44:20.639 as well so I think that's all very in keeping 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:24.980 with other versions of the Doctor yeah perhaps 00:44:24.980 --> 00:44:29.800 nevertheless it's good to see it is good to see 00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:32.920 the way that Shuji Gatwa performs, the role, 00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:37.659 is evolving, is changing, is becoming more Doctor 00:44:37.659 --> 00:44:41.079 -like. Still a very unique Doctor, but still 00:44:41.079 --> 00:44:45.320 definitely the Doctor. And I think there's a 00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:50.420 really good balance of that. And I really hope 00:44:50.420 --> 00:44:52.280 we do get more. You know, there are rumours that 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:55.820 this is his last season. I hope that isn't the 00:44:55.820 --> 00:44:58.980 case. I hope we get another, at least one more 00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:04.130 season. with this Doctor, because there's definitely 00:45:04.130 --> 00:45:09.349 potential for more, I think, from the character. 00:45:09.929 --> 00:45:12.510 However, not the only Doctor in this episode. 00:45:12.809 --> 00:45:15.750 Big surprise, wasn't expecting it at all. We 00:45:15.750 --> 00:45:19.130 got to see the Fugitive Doctor for a brief moment, 00:45:19.449 --> 00:45:23.809 which I really wasn't expecting. I really, really 00:45:23.809 --> 00:45:27.090 thought we were perhaps done with that character. 00:45:27.110 --> 00:45:29.530 I thought maybe that character was... Something 00:45:29.530 --> 00:45:33.369 that appeared in the Chibnall era and that was 00:45:33.369 --> 00:45:36.070 it. And I've mentioned in the past actually about 00:45:36.070 --> 00:45:39.469 how I'm not a huge fan of how when a new era 00:45:39.469 --> 00:45:41.909 of Doctor Who comes along, a new showrunner in 00:45:41.909 --> 00:45:46.190 particular, a lot of stuff kind of just stops 00:45:46.190 --> 00:45:49.670 and disappears. Whereas we really are reaching 00:45:49.670 --> 00:45:51.590 into other eras with this one. You know, we have 00:45:51.590 --> 00:45:53.969 Kate Stewart who's come all the way through from 00:45:53.969 --> 00:45:57.949 the early half of the Moffat era. We've had... 00:45:58.750 --> 00:46:01.150 The Fugitive Doctor now. We've even had Mel from 00:46:01.150 --> 00:46:04.590 the classic series. And it's just nice to see 00:46:04.590 --> 00:46:08.750 that we're not afraid to kind of bring things 00:46:08.750 --> 00:46:13.070 from the show's recent past through here. And 00:46:13.070 --> 00:46:17.489 I hope that we do get another proper Fugitive 00:46:17.489 --> 00:46:19.610 Doctor episode sometime. I'm not talking about 00:46:19.610 --> 00:46:23.670 a little cameo. I'm hoping we get, for some reason, 00:46:23.750 --> 00:46:28.230 the current Doctor has to, has to... get into 00:46:28.230 --> 00:46:31.050 an adventure with the Fugitive Doctor. I suppose 00:46:31.050 --> 00:46:34.849 the closest example I've got would be Coda from 00:46:34.849 --> 00:46:37.650 Once and Future where the War Doctor and the 00:46:37.650 --> 00:46:39.869 Fugitive Doctor just sort of happen to end up 00:46:39.869 --> 00:46:43.070 in an adventure together. I'd like to see something 00:46:43.070 --> 00:46:46.690 like that. Or a special... Like, there's all 00:46:46.690 --> 00:46:48.550 sorts of rumours about what will happen if there's 00:46:48.550 --> 00:46:51.349 a hiatus on TV and, you know, there's talk of, 00:46:51.349 --> 00:46:55.099 like, celebrity... and like having a different 00:46:55.099 --> 00:46:58.039 doctor every year for a TV movie. And, you know, 00:46:58.059 --> 00:47:02.239 we might finally get our Paul McGann movie that's 00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:06.179 been like everyone's wanted for the last few 00:47:06.179 --> 00:47:08.199 decades. And they might do a Joe Martin movie, 00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:11.599 you know, like all the tales of the TARDIS stuff. 00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:15.739 And, you know, Dr. Davis's vague comments about 00:47:15.739 --> 00:47:18.320 bi -generation potentially being this retroactive 00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:20.789 thing, which you've had nothing about. since 00:47:20.789 --> 00:47:24.909 the giggle um i feel like that was just him just 00:47:24.909 --> 00:47:30.809 just kind of getting a bit carried away um but 00:47:30.809 --> 00:47:33.250 but maybe that was set up for oh you know there'll 00:47:33.250 --> 00:47:37.829 be a uh a sylvester mccoy special every every 00:47:37.829 --> 00:47:40.190 now and then when when our main doctor isn't 00:47:40.190 --> 00:47:43.030 available or is busy doing a play or something 00:47:43.030 --> 00:47:47.469 and yeah joe martin would be great to see doing 00:47:47.469 --> 00:47:50.050 something like that um because yeah because you're 00:47:50.050 --> 00:47:52.250 right you don't want her to just keep being the 00:47:52.250 --> 00:47:57.630 cameo doctor um you know who turns up and like 00:47:57.630 --> 00:48:02.329 everyone really just wants more of but we never 00:48:02.329 --> 00:48:04.929 get more than like that that fleeting look at 00:48:04.929 --> 00:48:07.449 at that certain point you have to keep stop teasing 00:48:07.449 --> 00:48:11.530 and give us something more substantial and there 00:48:11.530 --> 00:48:14.659 was a line and a very Very in keeping with like 00:48:14.659 --> 00:48:17.460 the whole theme of stories about like, what was 00:48:17.460 --> 00:48:20.340 it? Like something about a story might be finished 00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:24.239 one day or. Certainly a hint. Something like. 00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:32.039 So, yeah, is that hinting? I hope so. But we'll 00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:35.159 see. I'm not expecting it, but I'd very much 00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:40.199 like it. It felt. I suspect that for COVID reasons. 00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:44.739 we never quite got what the original plan for 00:48:44.739 --> 00:48:48.860 Joe Martin was in the Jodie Whittaker era, in 00:48:48.860 --> 00:48:54.480 the Chibnall era. I always felt as though there 00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:57.679 was meant to be another episode. Was there a 00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:05.039 plan? But Chibnall's been a bit vague about what 00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:09.500 actually was going on there. And maybe that's... 00:49:09.820 --> 00:49:11.880 that's fine that like you know you leave that 00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:13.820 vague and even the author doesn't know the answers 00:49:13.820 --> 00:49:17.079 but he's almost i feel like he said things recently 00:49:17.079 --> 00:49:19.460 that make it sound like he didn't know himself 00:49:19.460 --> 00:49:22.539 what you know where she sits in the timeline 00:49:22.539 --> 00:49:28.860 or who she is i don't necessarily need confirmation 00:49:28.860 --> 00:49:32.539 of the timeline but there's a load of stuff with 00:49:32.539 --> 00:49:35.739 you know the whole division thing was never really 00:49:35.739 --> 00:49:39.809 wrapped up I don't know. It feels as though that 00:49:39.809 --> 00:49:42.829 there are dangling threads there. And there is 00:49:42.829 --> 00:49:46.989 Big Finish, but... Well, we know that Big Finish 00:49:46.989 --> 00:49:51.590 13th Doctor stuff isn't going to deal with that 00:49:51.590 --> 00:49:55.449 because it's set before Flux. And there's fugitive 00:49:55.449 --> 00:49:58.510 Doctor box sets, but again, I don't think Big 00:49:58.510 --> 00:50:00.829 Finish are going to constrain. They're not going 00:50:00.829 --> 00:50:04.369 to be allowed to reveal some earth -shattering... 00:50:05.179 --> 00:50:07.119 thing that changes the whole nature of Doctor 00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:09.920 Who which by the way is what Russell Davis is 00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:13.239 hinting at next week's episode being based on 00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:15.900 his Doctor Who magazine comments that's not going 00:50:15.900 --> 00:50:18.280 to happen in Big Finish so again they're constrained 00:50:18.280 --> 00:50:22.260 because like what really radical or amazing things 00:50:22.260 --> 00:50:24.619 can they do with revelations about the fugitive 00:50:24.619 --> 00:50:27.659 Doctor and the same with the war Doctor you know 00:50:27.659 --> 00:50:30.219 they're working within the constraints of like 00:50:30.219 --> 00:50:34.340 we know where he ends up and it I've liked a 00:50:34.340 --> 00:50:36.239 lot of Board Doctor stuff, but it limits what 00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:38.280 they can do with that concept and that setup. 00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:44.260 Yeah, we have the start point, we have the end 00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:48.079 point, and we have not a lot to go on with the 00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:52.179 character, and we're never going to get what 00:50:52.179 --> 00:50:53.860 we got with the Eighth Doctor at Big Finish, 00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:57.639 which is a whole era that covers so many aspects 00:50:57.639 --> 00:50:59.920 of his life and all that kind of thing, because 00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:03.190 the future of Board Doctor's characters... aren't 00:51:03.190 --> 00:51:05.670 set up like that they're not yeah the current 00:51:05.670 --> 00:51:09.849 doctor at big finish at all um and even when 00:51:09.849 --> 00:51:12.889 the eighth doctor wasn't like even when we had 00:51:12.889 --> 00:51:17.409 the ninth doctor the gulf um the gap was so big 00:51:17.409 --> 00:51:20.469 that you could almost still view the eighth doctor 00:51:20.469 --> 00:51:23.289 as having this open -ended history which is starting 00:51:23.289 --> 00:51:28.349 to close off now but but still i i i saw the 00:51:28.349 --> 00:51:31.599 eighth doctors The Eighth Doctor is the current 00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:34.980 Doctor at Big Finish, right the way through to 00:51:34.980 --> 00:51:38.340 the end of Stranded, easily. It was ongoing adventures 00:51:38.340 --> 00:51:41.780 with a Doctor who, okay, by that stage we did 00:51:41.780 --> 00:51:45.360 know how he ended, we did know how he regenerated, 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:49.099 but it was a hell of a long way to get there. 00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:52.340 Yeah, there's still a bit of a gap, it feels, 00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:56.079 between the Liv and Helen era and then the Time 00:51:56.079 --> 00:51:59.550 War era. It feels like... I need to catch up 00:51:59.550 --> 00:52:01.670 with the last few box sets. I don't know if that's 00:52:01.670 --> 00:52:03.469 been filled in even more, but it feels like there's 00:52:03.469 --> 00:52:07.050 still a bit of a sort of jump, a vague period 00:52:07.050 --> 00:52:11.530 there. There's still questions to be answered, 00:52:11.590 --> 00:52:16.550 certainly. Yeah. Anyway, it's interesting, I 00:52:16.550 --> 00:52:20.889 think, that the story in the engine has given 00:52:20.889 --> 00:52:22.769 us an awful lot to talk about as an episode. 00:52:22.869 --> 00:52:24.650 Very good episode. I definitely need to watch 00:52:24.650 --> 00:52:27.739 it again. I've only seen it once. And I think 00:52:27.739 --> 00:52:30.559 we're absolutely right in terms of it being a 00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:32.659 bit ghost -like -ish. You need to give it a couple 00:52:32.659 --> 00:52:38.380 of goes before you get everything. But it's interesting 00:52:38.380 --> 00:52:40.119 that it's given us an awful lot to talk about, 00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:43.980 about the wider Doctor Who universe and various 00:52:43.980 --> 00:52:46.579 implications here and there and things we can 00:52:46.579 --> 00:52:49.000 compare it to and not compare it to and all that 00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:51.659 sort of thing. And at the end of the day, for 00:52:51.659 --> 00:52:53.699 the first time ever, as I said at the very start, 00:52:53.820 --> 00:52:57.239 I feel like... we've had a big finished story 00:52:57.239 --> 00:52:59.880 on screen. And that's not a bad thing. Like, 00:52:59.880 --> 00:53:02.880 it feels like we've had a really, really good 00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:04.719 big finished story. Like, someone has picked 00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:07.119 one of the best and just put it on screen instead 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:13.280 of onto a CD. And I've really enjoyed that. So 00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:18.340 it's nice to explore what it has explored. You 00:53:18.340 --> 00:53:23.469 know, folklore and stories and... other locations 00:53:23.469 --> 00:53:27.429 and the doctors, the way the doctor is perceived 00:53:27.429 --> 00:53:29.630 across different regenerations. There's so much 00:53:29.630 --> 00:53:32.710 in there to pick apart. And it has kind of led 00:53:32.710 --> 00:53:34.829 us on quite an interesting journey of discussion 00:53:34.829 --> 00:53:39.710 to various places. So I'm writing this down as 00:53:39.710 --> 00:53:41.909 a good episode. And I'm writing everything down 00:53:41.909 --> 00:53:43.510 as a good episode. I don't think we've had a 00:53:43.510 --> 00:53:45.550 dud at all this series. I don't think we've even 00:53:45.550 --> 00:53:50.469 come close to a dud this series so far. No, I 00:53:50.469 --> 00:53:54.110 think it's like same as series one. Once you 00:53:54.110 --> 00:53:57.269 get past the first episode, it's been really 00:53:57.269 --> 00:54:00.329 strong for me. And I think this year's opening 00:54:00.329 --> 00:54:07.070 was pretty good as well. I'm a bit anxious about 00:54:07.070 --> 00:54:09.429 the finale. I've booked to go see it in the cinema. 00:54:10.170 --> 00:54:13.750 And I did book last year, but I was ill, so I 00:54:13.750 --> 00:54:17.840 couldn't make it. a bit relieved because I didn't, 00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:20.099 then I didn't end up traveling across London. 00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:22.239 I booked for it like somewhere just around the 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:24.980 corner this year. Uh, and I'm a bit more optimistic 00:54:24.980 --> 00:54:29.420 this year. Um, but also that there are so many 00:54:29.420 --> 00:54:34.280 elements to nod to at least, or wrap up in a 00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:39.019 satisfying way. Uh, I'm really, really curious 00:54:39.019 --> 00:54:43.380 how those last two episodes are gonna, are gonna 00:54:43.380 --> 00:54:46.510 try and, wrap things up and give a decent amount 00:54:46.510 --> 00:54:50.949 of closure to everything and tell a decent story 00:54:50.949 --> 00:54:55.570 in their own right and we know so little about 00:54:55.570 --> 00:54:58.769 those last two episodes as well which I'm I mean 00:54:58.769 --> 00:55:00.730 last week's you know we don't really know anything 00:55:00.730 --> 00:55:03.269 about the rest of this series to be honest we 00:55:03.269 --> 00:55:05.889 didn't know anything going into story in the 00:55:05.889 --> 00:55:09.230 engine or very little about it We don't know 00:55:09.230 --> 00:55:11.489 much about Intergalactic Song Contest beyond 00:55:11.489 --> 00:55:16.070 the basic concept of what's going on. And the 00:55:16.070 --> 00:55:19.070 finale, all we have really is a title. We have 00:55:19.070 --> 00:55:22.409 some ideas of a few people confirmed to be in 00:55:22.409 --> 00:55:24.690 it, and I guess it's speculation technically, 00:55:24.929 --> 00:55:28.730 but an idea of what story elements you would 00:55:28.730 --> 00:55:33.690 expect to be resolved or paid off. Yeah, there's 00:55:33.690 --> 00:55:38.380 enough to speculate around. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, 00:55:38.420 --> 00:55:39.860 you're right. In terms of what actually happens, 00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:48.099 we don't have a clear idea of what the actual 00:55:48.099 --> 00:55:49.760 story is going to be. We don't even have an idea 00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:54.519 of the villain. We all went into the finale last 00:55:54.519 --> 00:55:59.400 time. We'd sort of figured out it was Sutec, 00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:01.539 hadn't we? I mean, Connor said on this podcast 00:56:01.539 --> 00:56:04.880 months before, oh, it's going to be Sutec. which 00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:06.920 was a wild stab in the dark, but it was a wild 00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:10.659 stab in the dark that proved to be correct. We 00:56:10.659 --> 00:56:13.219 don't have that. We're not sat here going, oh, 00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:15.519 Scarath's going to be in the finale. That's my 00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:17.900 guess. There doesn't seem to be any of that. 00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:23.599 The rumours going around, which probably have 00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:26.519 no basis whatsoever, but it seems like the classic 00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:33.570 things of Omega, the Rani, the Master. and i've 00:56:33.570 --> 00:56:37.909 stayed yeah i've stayed away from like specific 00:56:37.909 --> 00:56:40.949 actual verified spoilers apparently there's some 00:56:40.949 --> 00:56:43.809 dialogue leaks from the finale i've tried to 00:56:43.809 --> 00:56:48.849 avoid um but yeah those those bits of speculations 00:56:48.849 --> 00:56:51.230 about who the villain is i can't it can't be 00:56:51.230 --> 00:56:55.530 it can't be one of those oh yeah people are saying 00:56:55.530 --> 00:56:58.769 like maybe mrs flood is the ronnie but i'd be 00:56:58.769 --> 00:57:02.320 well let's see how it pans out but like i'd be 00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:04.260 a bit disappointed because she doesn't seem very 00:57:04.260 --> 00:57:14.000 ronnie -ish at all to me no and oh my god i don't 00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:17.420 i don't know how it could be i mean the master 00:57:17.420 --> 00:57:20.539 at least there is like a history of a relationship 00:57:20.539 --> 00:57:23.539 with that character that's been really well established 00:57:23.539 --> 00:57:26.920 in modern day doctor who that you can lean on 00:57:26.920 --> 00:57:34.000 but oh my god like What even hints at that? Oh, 00:57:34.940 --> 00:57:37.539 well, we'll continue in our speculations and 00:57:37.539 --> 00:57:40.699 see what we can come up with next week. But that's 00:57:40.699 --> 00:57:42.559 probably all we've got time for now. So we'll 00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:45.119 leave it there. But yeah, roll on the intergalactic 00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:48.400 song contest and hopefully it'll leave us with 00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:52.760 a lot to talk about. And as we've said, there's 00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:56.280 some kind of reveal coming. A really big reveal. 00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:59.860 Maybe I think the last performer. in the song 00:57:59.860 --> 00:58:03.000 contest will be a masked singer and it will be 00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:07.079 Omega wearing his mask. Played by Paul McGann. 00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:13.519 Yeah. You heard it here first, listeners. And 00:58:13.519 --> 00:58:15.320 on that note, we will leave it there. So thanks 00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:17.780 very much for joining me, Mansoor. We'll be back 00:58:17.780 --> 00:58:20.079 to discuss the Intergalactic Song Contest next 00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:24.420 week. But until then, goodbye.