You're listening to a podcast of Spirulius Verity.
Hello, and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality.
I'm Johnston, and with me again this week, I
have Mansell. Hello. Hello. So we're continuing
through the new series of Doctor Who. We're doing
the story and the engine this week, which is,
it's proved to be quite an interesting episode
in terms of reception, I think. It's very different
for Doctor Who. In fact, it struck me as a little
bit big finishy. But in a good way, a good Big
Finish. TV Doctor Who doesn't normally explore
non -European locations, for example, except
the odd trip to America. It was a very sort of,
I guess, high concept story by TV Doctor Who
standards. Did Big Finish not exist? If Big Finish
didn't exist, this would be a completely out
there, different kind of story. But I think,
I actually think it's not because we have had
Big Finish and Big Finish has enabled the Doctor
to explore sort of more interesting locations
than London and Cardiff. But overall, good episode,
I thought. I enjoyed it. I'm going to jump straight
in with I enjoyed this one. It was... sort of
an interesting one. And it did different things.
And it's good to see, even with a reduced episode
count, we are doing different things. I really
appreciated that. What were your sort of thoughts
on it, Mansoor? Yeah, for TV Doctor Who, it's
refreshing that after 50 plus years, they can
still do stories that feel... fresh and unique
for tv but like i said that not so much big finish
but what my first thought was um uh like the
the novels like both the bbc novels for the eighth
doctor and the virgin uh new adventures for the
seventh because of well firstly this whole season
has been focused on this god's arc but then the
the particularly heightened magical realism stuff
that was going on in this story that felt very
very like some of the stuff that was going on
in the novels um so so yeah in good ways again
like like like other stories this season reminding
me of some of the best extended media stuff i
have seen reviews that have sort of said it managed
to squeeze a lot of the depth that you get in
those new adventures novels into a 45 50 minute
episode which It's hard to argue with. There
was a lot of really good stuff in there. Yeah,
I think the pacing stuff is still a thing for
this whole era, like every week. And again, like
in a good way in that I've seen people as well
say that this could have been a two -part story
and I've seen that comment about a lot of episodes
this season. And again, I see the logic in not
losing people's attention and rattling through
a story and thinking about the risk of people
second screening it and having their phone in
their hand and being desperate to hold on to
their attention. But yeah, I wish sometimes we
could just let things breathe just for an extra
10, 15 minutes. And you mentioned Ghost Light.
It made me think of that story a lot in that
I watched it. And the first time, I didn't really
100 % understand what was going on, but I just
had this feeling that it was something special
and interesting that I wanted to go back to and
that I wanted to put the effort into understanding
more. And I think it was the same with Ghostlight,
that it wasn't intended to be so hard to figure
out. maybe something that happened along the
way in production where things got shortened
and it got squashed down and bits were lost.
And I feel like almost the same has happened
with a lot of episodes in this season of Doctor
Who. But it's, I mean, I completely agree with
you. You know, I said, obviously, I got kind
of big Finnish vibes from it, you know, some
of the more experimental monthly range stuff.
But at the same time, you're right, Ghostlight
is a... is a great example, and I suppose Warrior's
Gate is the other one that comes to mind immediately.
Episodes that, it's all there, like everything
is there, it's all available for you to figure
out, it's all there for you to piece together,
but maybe it just takes more than one go, more
than one watch. It's asking questions of you
as a viewer, it's giving you things to interpret,
and some very sort of abstract ideas and concepts
in there. And that's great. I don't want Doctor
Who to do that every week. Sometimes I do just
want Monster Bad, Rundown, Corridor, press big
red button to make it all go away. But Doctor
Who's very guilty, well, new Doctor Who, is very
guilty of having a bit of a mid -season lull.
And it doesn't seem to be happening here. We've
just had two very good, very enjoyable mid -season
episodes. I really do think this series is going
from strength to strength. And this episode is
just an example that, you know, not everything
does have to be directly linked to the ongoing
storyline. I know we're sort of playing with
the themes of gods and storytelling and that
kind of thing, which we've had quite a bit of.
So we're still playing in the same themes, but
we're not necessarily linking anything directly
to the current storyline. You know, there were
references to gods, but these gods weren't. It's
a different type of gods. Yeah. Toymaker and
Sutec, they were sort of... Well, they were Earth
-based, because they talked about the number
of people affected, and they didn't talk about
the whole universe. I think he talked about the
population of Earth. So it was almost like these
were semi -mythological beings that tied very
specifically to the cultural history of Earth.
That it wasn't the SUTEC thing of they are these
universe -spanning aliens that are worshipped
on many worlds. It was Earth deities. Yeah, which,
like I say, it means we're still playing with
those themes, but we're doing it in a slightly
more, in some ways slightly more grounded, in
other ways slightly more fairytale -like, I guess.
But the whole thing definitely sort of played
with the idea of fairy tales and folk tales and
that kind of thing. And I thought that was good.
I liked seeing that in Doctor Who and I liked
seeing it done that way in Doctor Who because
it's very easy to be a bit too on the nose with
the idea of a fairy tale maybe or, you know,
linking things to a myth. You know, we've had,
I don't know, Underworld is just the retelling
of a Greek myth. Horns of Nymon is and all that
kind of thing. And it's just a sci -fi retelling.
This wasn't that. This was very much based in
the Doctor Who universe and the way it is and
the way we understand it. And I did particularly
enjoy that. I also liked the fact that the setting
was significant. um lagos but it wasn't linked
to any sort of historical event usually we visit
somewhere like that it's linked to some historical
idea or figure or event and we we didn't have
that it just happened to be the place where the
doctor was this week um and i liked that as well
you know it let the setting live and breathe
because it was about the setting and not not
a person um Which, again, Doctor Who's very guilty
of hooking things like this to an individual,
a historical individual or whatever. Or an event
like Partition with Demons of the Punjab, which
I liked as an episode. Yes. And it did have characters
as well to give it that human dimension, but
it was a story about Partition and the effect
on people. Yeah, very much so. Whereas this didn't
feel the need to do that. This had its own thing
to do, but I thought it used the setting very
effectively. I thought it used it very well and
kind of let us explore the Doctor's, what the
race he appears as now, I suppose. It's allowed
for a bit of conversation about that, which has
been brushed. You know, brushed past, brushed
around, brushed over, I guess, is being mentioned
in passing, but we've never had any kind of sort
of real acknowledgement of it. And, you know,
how the doctor feels as though certain people
do treat him differently now. And this is something
we missed in the Jodie Whitter career, I think,
as well. I think we maybe needed something, you
know, we never really explored the fact that
the doctor was a woman. There's little bits.
There was a little jokey moment. And then like
in the Witchbinders, there was a bit more to
it. But yeah, I definitely would have liked more
of that. I'm completely speculating, but I wonder
if it was like an anxiety. And maybe there's
something about, I liked her costume as well,
but maybe there was something about that filtering
into her costume choice of, oh, let's make it
something kind of cool looking, but also potentially
a bit androgynous in terms of silhouette. And
maybe there was the same thing with engaging
with those ideas. But I feel like they've done
it a fair bit in this season, like with Lux,
setting it up. There was, I think, just the right
amount there and then talking about it a bit
more explicitly here and the conversation with
Belinda as well to bring it out a bit more. Yeah,
it's good to see that it's maybe been a slow
journey, but we are acknowledging. um the fact
that the doctor's not just a white bloke anymore
um and that that it should be doing we should
be doing that you know it's people are perceived
differently based on whatever characteristic
you want to name and therefore the doctor is
able to change those characteristics therefore
the doctor will be perceived differently um so
it's definitely something that should be explored
and i'm i'm glad we've done that So one drawback
I can think of with this episode, it was doing
an awful lot, it was giving the audience a lot
to think about, but I'm kind of concerned that
Belinda got relegated to the background a bit
here. She spent a fair chunk in the TARDIS, she
comes out of the TARDIS, she wanders round, she
meets... For some reason, one of the kids from
Space Babies, we haven't quite figured that one
out yet, and then enters the barbershop and doesn't
do particularly much from that point onwards.
And it's fine. We've had episodes before where
Companion has been sidelined, Doctor has been
sidelined. But again, it's an eight -episode
series. We had an episode last week where Belinda
was in one scene. I feel as though that we're
nearly three quarters of the way through the
series and for a quarter of it, we've not really
spent any time with this new character, which,
you know, a bit of a concern in a longer season.
It wouldn't bother me at all, even in a 13 -episode
season. I probably wouldn't even notice. But
it's the fact that of the, what have we had now,
seven, six, five, five episodes? Five episodes
we've had. Belinda's not really been around for
two of them, or she was barely in one at all
and hasn't had much to do here. I know that I've
sort of complained about a number of episodes
in the season before, and I know it's a very,
very easy thing to do as a fan, go, ooh, I want
more. And I'm well aware there's probably a very
good production reason we're only getting eight.
I'm judging by how fantastic the series looks
that a lot more work is going into those eight
episodes than perhaps went into 13, 20 years
ago. But I really do feel that it's costing getting
to know companions. And we've had two companions
in. or 18 episodes by the time this series ends.
And I still don't feel as though we got to know
Ruby. In fact, I feel as though we got to know
Ruby quite a lot more last week, as I said, when
we were discussing it. And I have the same concern
about Belinda. Like, really, we've had three
and a bit episodes of her at this point, and
we are... heading towards the end of the series
now. It could well be that, considering Russell
T Davies has said there's some kind of reveal
in next week's episode, it could well be that
we're kind of stuck in that kind of finale zone
where there isn't much room for change or development
or that kind of thing. And I just hope we've
not missed an opportunity to get to know Belinda
better. I guess with Ruby we got... We had an
episode that was completely Ruby -based in the
last season and we did get to know her a little
bit more. We've not had that with Belinda and
evidence would suggest we're not going to because
the next three episodes appear as though they're
going to be quite significant and I don't think
we're going to take a week off to just hang out
with Belinda for a bit. Yeah, it's... agree and
especially as I think I've enjoyed her character
a lot more I think she's been given a bit more
dimension than Ruby from the start I think she's
been better served by her first few stories and
script to give her a bit more depth at the same
time we've kind of had this rerun and recap at
the start of every episode now of her reminding
the doctor to get us home and it feels like almost
like a recap for the audience's benefit in case
you're just tuning in that week to like remind
us of the setup of the show like the intro to
quantum leap and just just uh just like restate
the mission of getting a home um and i see the
logic of that but i also hope that we don't keep
hammering that too much and we just do continue
to see more dimensions to her in the last three
episodes But I think you're right. Like, if this
was like a 13 -episode series or Belinda was
sticking around for more than one season, I don't
think there was much need for her to be in the
second half of the story. She wasn't bad when
she turned up, and she was given a very sort
of active role and had some impact on the story.
But it was quite, I felt like she slipped into
quite a generic companion mode. And I don't feel
like loads of time has passed, but she almost
had a lot of knowledge and skill that was very
doctorish, and I didn't know how that developed
so quickly. Have we had a time jump or a gap,
do you think, at some point? Maybe after episode
three? I get the impression that maybe, yeah,
after the well, and maybe they were doing...
other stuff while Lucky Day was going on. It
feels like we've had a jump, but she's still
saying, Doctor, you need to get me home now,
so it doesn't feel like it's been a big jump.
But tonally, maybe we've had room for a few novels
in there or something like that. I think there
must be something, because she's not had a rest
since Robot Revolution. And she's human. She
needs to sleep. And also just tonally, the well
was pretty traumatic. And it feels like there
must have been some sort of gap between that
and then kind of the way things feel in this
episode. I don't think the fact that she got
shot in the well has been referenced at all since,
has it? Oh, yeah. I didn't know. I was thinking
about just the episode in general. But yeah,
she got shot and she died. Yeah, didn't die,
but got shot and had to recover from getting
shot. Yeah. Even with sort of TARDIS medicine,
I'd like to think getting shot on an alien planet
when you're being stalked by some horror creature
is going to traumatise somebody a little bit.
Like, that's the sort of thing you'd expect to
happen. But, yeah, it's not been mentioned again.
Even to even mention the Mara at the start of
Mordred Undead, you know. Yeah, so it feels like
the big finish box set might start there and
she is a little bit understandably traumatised
and then get to the point of where she's a bit
more relaxed and happy and maybe time has passed
for her to watch the Doctor and pick some stuff
up from him. I'd hope so. Yeah, it's feeling
very rushed, which, fine, we knew that was going
to happen going into it. I wasn't 100 % convinced
I wanted a new companion in this series. I'd
have been quite happy if we'd have just carried
on with Ruby as we did last series, you know,
picked up, second sit. But I know Russell T.
Davis likes to change his regulars around, and
Belinda is a brilliant character. I don't want
to play the... Who's the better companion game?
But I think just in terms of how the characters
are written, I think there's a lot more potential
with Belinda than there is with Ruby. Just my
concern is we're not going to get to properly
see that potential. Maybe, because we're most
of the way through the series now and haven't
spent that much time with her still. You never
know. Maybe we'll get something a bit more Belinda
-centric. Well, you mentioned I got the stuff
for the finale, and I was thinking just after
this episode, oh, you mentioned the Space Babies
as well, and I was just thinking how all of these,
there are quite a few lingering threads and mysteries
that need to be wrapped up in the next three
episodes, or at least acknowledged, you would
hope. So Mrs. Flood obviously feels like a given.
now we have this new space babies thing we have
the boss and is that the same as mrs flood or
is that someone different um we have like what's
happened to the earth we've got no indication
of what's actually going on there and presumably
reverse that um i'm sure there's more like i
think i think it seemed i expect ruby and conrad
are both going to be back uh mel is going to
be in it um It feels like a lot, and I'm expecting
a lot of this won't be in the Interstellar Song
Contest, because a lot of that's going to be
in space, and some of these elements are quite
Earth -based. So that's a lot to squeeze into
the last two episodes, and yeah, I think you're
right. How much space does that leave for any
detailed introspection or character development
for Belinda? Have we had confirmation of the
length of the final episode yet? Because I know
it is getting a cinema screening, isn't it? Has
that said how long it is? It probably says somewhere,
but I think if it was longer than 50, 55 minutes,
we would have heard. That's what I'm thinking.
Is it going to be one of those, you know, actually
it's 75 minutes type things, but there's no indication,
is there? No, and I feel like if... like you
say the cinema listings must be up and if if
it was that sort of running time i feel like
we would know by now people will be talking about
it i'd assume um and and these episodes have
run quite short like uh was it children where
we tended to get like longer episodes that were
like bumping up against an hour sometimes and
it feels like we've gone the other like weirdly
in the age of streaming we've gone the other
way to like squeeze into like a very specific
broadcast television slot of 45 minutes I'm just
trying to find the episode lengths now because
yes I think you're right yeah 46, 44, 47 46 and
47 we've had so far so they've all beaten 45
minutes and I remember the days when an episode
would come in at 42 minutes and, oh, that's it,
it's a disaster and the series is being cancelled
because it's three minutes short. I don't know,
is this... I wonder if this is, rather than broadcast
schedules, given that the international distributor
is Disney +, is this again like the anxiety of
holding people's attention and just, is this
like some sort of limit that... Russell T Davies
has set for himself or maybe it's budget as well
but like when you're making when you're making
it with like a heightened budget and production
quality an extra five minutes costs a lot of
money well yeah there's that and I mean time
time with streaming just doesn't matter like
you know we've got a new series of Stranger Things
coming this year and we've basically been told
it's It's eight movies. It's eight films lengthwise.
Yeah. So, yeah, things have seemed to have got
longer with streaming, but then again, at the
same time, we still seem to be sticking fairly
rigidly to 45, 50 minutes. I don't know. Can
anyone say how long an episode of Doctor Who
is now? I suppose it still has to be broadcast
on BBC One. That is... that's still its home
it is but bbc does not because bbc is commercial
free um the programming doesn't line up in nice
neat hourly slots anyway you know if it's like
um and even channel four doesn't seem to line
up neatly uh it's more the american networks
where like you know programming starts on the
hour and you have this amount of time and the
rest is sold to advertisers and that's all quite
constrained so because like yeah like with the
Chibnall area we had like things growing a bit
longer and that and I remember like there were
quite a few episodes where we had them a bit
longer and they overran like the series three
finale and they would be edited down in other
regions because those other regions had the that
sort of restrictions on that we've sold that
advertising space I think it was the Series 3
finale where there were scenes that were cut
out for the American broadcast, I think. Yeah.
I'll never forget how... The one that weirded
me out the most of how they managed to get away
with it was the Series 9. Both finale episodes
were quite long. I remember them going... Heaven
Sent is this long and Hellbent is even longer.
It's this long. So we actually got two extended
length episodes, which at the time, we're only
talking 10 years ago, was virtually unheard of.
That's two extra long episodes. And like you
say, in the Chibnall era, we got spoiled a bit
by episode lengths. They said... You know, episodes
are 50 minutes now. We're doing fewer episodes,
but episodes are longer. But here it seems to
be fewer episodes and shorter episodes. I'm not
entirely sure. Like you say, it could be a budget
thing. And also, I think part of it should be
down to how long does the story take to tell?
This isn't classic Doctor Who anymore. It's not.
we've got to have a cliffhanger every 25 minutes.
Yeah. You know, it's not even 10, 15 years ago
where we have to have a cliffhanger every 45
minutes. The format of the show has changed.
It has evolved. Like I say, I suspect it's just
the number of sort of working hours that have
to go into. making it look as good as it does.
And we've repeatedly talked about how good this
series looks. You know, a lot of people said
that the Disney money didn't appear on screen
last year. Well, it sure as hell has this year.
In every single episode, it's looked exceptional.
And I sort of see that. But then at the same
time, like if I was extending some of these episodes
by five, ten minutes, a lot of that would be
like... character moments or dialogue heavy scenes
so not not talking like loads of effects and
you know expensive setups but so that's what
makes me think maybe is it actually more about
like a self -imposed limit of no we're going
to hold people's attention and okay and and to
be fair i would prefer something is a bit short
and leaves you wanting more to to to use the
big finish example or even some classic Doctor
Who, to pad things out a bit longer than the
story deserves or the story needs. And, you know,
to sort of artificially hold yourself to longer
running time and go the other direction. Which
I suppose must be an easy trap to fall into.
Well, yeah. I mean, if you're a writer for Big
Finish, you're given the brief of... all of our
stories have to be X number of CDs long, or you
have to fill this box set, you have to fill these
slots. You can't write a story that's like three
quarters of a CD long. It has to be, you know,
that's 60 minutes. I know they play around a
little bit with like sometimes squeezing three
short episodes onto a disc, but it's generally,
they're pretty, they're pretty like, you know,
it's an hour's worth of story. on each CD I find
it amazing that it's still sort of dictated by
CD length in 2025 because it can there can't
be much audio drama produced now that is dictated
by can we fit it on a CD I really can't but it's
Doctor Who there'll be like that core of people
who will complain if Like, you know, some releases
go digital only or, you know, they can't continue
collecting. Which we have seen. Yeah, they are
announcing digital only releases now and there
are people that are not buying them because they
can't have them on. Yeah, yeah. They're very
tentative. Yeah, and you can tell, it's like
with like Recast, they're sort of like, you can
tell that Big Finish are a bit anxious about
jumping into that and they're just trying it
to see how people react. for really going for
it. I suppose that's the other thing that sort
of dictates Big Finish. It's what do people buy?
What will people... Yeah, they're much more constrained
by that because you can put something out on
the BBC and there aren't advertisers to keep
happy. Viewing figures aren't the be -all and
end -all. It's about doing what the charter says
you're supposed to do. It's not just about numbers
of viewers. so you have a lot more flexibility.
Whereas Big Finish, I think as I understand it,
they put out a lot of stuff, but it sounds like
their margins are quite narrow, and so they have
to be a bit more, maybe not mercenary, but they
have to be a bit more reactive to, well, people
will buy more stuff if there's a Dalek on the
cover, so we'll put out a lot of Dalek stories.
It still lets them do good stuff. within those
constraints but i think they are more constrained
than people making doctor who on tv and of course
they're also constrained by doctor who on tv
as well yeah what they have what they're allowed
to do what because they can't because considering
what they do produce and considering some of
the stuff they come out with it's actually a
minor miracle that it's as good as it is because
they do have you know imagine if the tv series
were to look at facebook twitter gallifrey base
and gauge what it had to do based on that which
i'm not saying is what big finish does you know
big finish looks at what sells and what doesn't
and goes okay as you say daleks are on the cover
of that one it's sold better than anything else
we'll put more daleks on covers um and the opposite
way around where like what, you know, stuff that
I really enjoyed, like the novel adaptations,
doesn't continue because people weren't buying
them in the numbers that they buy other stuff.
Or Fogarty is a big example, a big one as well.
Like, you know, Chris and Roz, they attempted
to bring them back, but seems like people just
have something, don't, yeah, the numbers aren't
there for those, those like comics and books
characters coming in. I suppose at the end of
the day, you know, they originated in a series
of 30 -odd -year -old novels that are very difficult
to get hold of. There's an awful lot of, like,
if you look at the list of new adventures and
you've never read any of them, it's quite overwhelming.
As somebody that's not actually read all that
many. I can kind of get it. I can kind of people
go, I kind of get why people go, yeah, I'm just
not engaging with that. Which is a shame because
I quite liked the novel adaptations. I quite
like Chris and Rose, especially the way they
have been sort of interpreted on audio. Because
they have, maybe it was to do with the order
as well, but they have done their origin story.
I don't think it was their first audio, but they
have done. original sins so like with bernice
they've done an adaptation of lohan war so even
if you if you don't track down those novels you
can still get a performed introduction to these
to these components yeah absolutely um but but
dragging it dragging us back to um the story
and the engine um it's I hope that Belinda doesn't
become that kind of character, actually, you
know, a character that people don't go for in
spin -off because we didn't really see or hear
much from her on screen. Like, she's a great
character, just my concern is she's been a little
bit underserved. That may all change in the next
few episodes. She's been compared to Tegan, who's
quite a well -regarded character now. But I think
at certain points was dismissed as the one who's
always complaining and just doesn't want to be
there. I think there's a lot more to both Tegan
and Belinda. I think we've had a very good reassessment
of Tegan over the last few years. I do remember
a time where everybody just dismissed 80s who
was dreadful and anybody involved with it was
also dreadful and therefore Tegan was... lugged
in on the list of worst companions ever. Even
worse because she dared to not be in love with
travelling in the TARDIS and maybe that set some
fans against her. Those fans who would fantasise
about going off in the TARDIS with the Doctor
when they were children and there's this person
who doesn't want to be there. What's her problem?
I also wonder if The fact it took Janet Fielding
a while to start regularly doing Big Finish contributes
to that as well. Like a lot of people have said
that, you know, Big Finish has done absolute
wonders for, you know, The Sixth Doctor and Ace
and Adric even, you know, another late to Big
Finish. But nevertheless, we've had some great
stuff with Adric there now. So I wonder if that's
kind of a contributing factor as well, like in
terms of people that are... are looking at the
ongoing Classy Doctor Who big finish. I wonder
if, you know, there being no new Tegan material
has perhaps skewed the view a little bit. And
obviously that's been fixed in the last 10 years.
Maybe. Nevertheless, it's, you know, Tegan is
beloved. Tegan came back. Everyone was happy
that Tegan came back. in power at the doctor
um and i just hope that there's the platform
for if nothing else more appreciation of belinda
in the future because it kind of doesn't really
feel like that at the minute there's just not
much to work with um yeah anyway we'll move on
because we can keep going on so in circles on
this one um the doctor then So we've kind of
mentioned that the Doctor found visiting Lagos,
he found it as a safe space, the barbershop especially
was a safe space. It's somewhere he felt comfortable
going in his current regeneration. I love the
fact that we are referring to off -screen adventures
with the 15th Doctor because everything feels
like it's happened quickly. Again, I'm complaining
about shorter episode count. I need to get over
it. Everything feels like it's happened really
quickly. It doesn't feel like this Doctor's gone
off and had loads and loads of adventures. But
actually, there are some fairly solid gaps in
his timeline where he could have done and presumably
did, the biggest one being in between seasons.
And, you know, we had a Christmas special sort
of set in that period. So just sort of have you
any thoughts about the Doctor in this week's
episode and have we learned a bit about him and
that sort of thing? Yeah, I think the off -screen
adventures are good and they add some depth.
And I don't know, I feel like, I'm finding it
hard to be specific, but I feel like there's
more to the Doctor's performance this season.
Because was season two filmed? I know season
two was filmed ages ago. Like, how close was
it to season one? Because it almost feels like
he's had some time to settle in and to get a
sort of deeper hold on what his Doctor is. Yeah.
Yeah, there's definitely been some kind of subtle
shift in the performance. And we discussed this
at the start, you know, when we watched The Robot
Revolution. We kind of discussed this then and
kind of said, actually, there's not been much
of a shift, but... Yeah, a few more episodes
in. I agree with you. He just seems to have gelled
with the role a bit more. I don't think there's
been any sort of huge conscious change in the
way the character's done. It's not like Patrick
Troughton being a very different Doctor by Tomb
of the Cybermen than he was in Power of the Daleks.
But yeah, he certainly feels more comfortable
in the role. I really don't think there was that
big a gap between... Filming season. But then
Christopher Eccleston changed in his season.
I think I'm trying to track it back, but it might,
it might even be like broke by production book.
Like I feel like Eccleston's performance when
it started in the, in the earliest filmed episodes
that it was a bit broader. It was a little bit
more CBBC where, and where he was getting his
head around the role. And then as time went on,
his doctor became, there was still some of that.
lightness and comedy, but it became a bit more
real and a bit more grounded as he got further
in. And maybe it's just that same thing. So even
if season two was filmed right after, it was
just one of the later production blocks, effectively.
Yeah, I think every Doctor has settled into the
character over time. And, you know, writers become
more confident with how to write the character
as well. It must be so difficult to come in as
a guest writer and write for a brand new Doctor
who hasn't actually appeared on screen yet. I
know most of the last series was written by Russell
T Davies, who was obviously trying to steer it
in a certain direction. But new voices have helped,
I think, in this case. Definitely for this season,
I think that's been both for the Doctor and the
stories, and in general just having that bit
more of a mix, and having Russell T Davies, I'm
sure, very closely involved in rewrites to make
it feel cohesive. I think that's throughout both
the first era and this one. Some of the strongest
stories are the ones where a writer has come
with the first draft and those ideas and that
freshness, and then he's done sometimes very
extensive. rewrites but sometimes that collaboration
I'm curious if there's a writer's tale I'm curious
to know how his process has changed for this
era and if he's being more hands off or he's
still working in the exact same way as he did
the first time around but I mean coming back
to the Doctor in this episode so I'm seeing that
bit of a subtle shift from where he was in Church
on Ruby Road, Space Babies, right at the start.
And there was moments in Joy to the World where
you got to see some very different sides to him
as well. But I'm also a bit anxious that potentially
with three episodes left, I don't think this
Doctor is going to get the type of arc or progression.
And actually, to be fair, I don't think Jodie
Whittaker... was well served by this either as
well by like by ending up a different person
at the end of their era than they were at the
start i think 10 11 and 12 all had that in in
in really interesting ways um 12 being my favorite
example of that of how he changes so much from
eight to nine and then to ten um from those seasons
um but i don't think jodie wetzker or tutor got
while so far have had anything as dramatic as
that everyone says the big big moment with the
12th doctor with capaldi was a zygon inversion
you know the big the big sort of monologue in
that that really sort of let us see i mean peter
capaldi acting at full throttle because there
are a lot of quite reasonable sort of discussions
about how okay we've got this we've got someone
who we know is an absolutely phenomenal actor
who is just not being maybe challenged isn't
the right word but you know i mean not not being
given material that necessarily lets them show
really what they can bring to the table and then
we suddenly got it in that episode and it was
kind of a big moment for that doctor And I think
maybe we need that moment. I think we've had
a few moments that could have been that moment.
But going back to, like a stuck record here,
we've just not seen enough of him. We've just
not had enough of this doctor on screen. Yeah,
and maybe he's a doctor who doesn't monologue
as extensively as Capaldi, who was my favourite.
who's my favorite doctor i think but um and and
but i especially with like his final speech where
he gets like he has two or three regeneration
speeches layered on top of each other there are
times when i think that his stuff could have
been cut down a bit little bit um but like for
example the speech with conrad that was like
more understated and maybe that's who this doctor
is that he isn't as dramatic or over the top
as some of the previous ones will have been but
it's almost yeah a bit of that sort of Patrick
Troughton energy of like being a bit more subtle
and maybe being a bit scarier because of that
like Sylvester McCoy had a bit of that sometimes
as well so I think that's all very in keeping
with other versions of the Doctor yeah perhaps
nevertheless it's good to see it is good to see
the way that Shuji Gatwa performs, the role,
is evolving, is changing, is becoming more Doctor
-like. Still a very unique Doctor, but still
definitely the Doctor. And I think there's a
really good balance of that. And I really hope
we do get more. You know, there are rumours that
this is his last season. I hope that isn't the
case. I hope we get another, at least one more
season. with this Doctor, because there's definitely
potential for more, I think, from the character.
However, not the only Doctor in this episode.
Big surprise, wasn't expecting it at all. We
got to see the Fugitive Doctor for a brief moment,
which I really wasn't expecting. I really, really
thought we were perhaps done with that character.
I thought maybe that character was... Something
that appeared in the Chibnall era and that was
it. And I've mentioned in the past actually about
how I'm not a huge fan of how when a new era
of Doctor Who comes along, a new showrunner in
particular, a lot of stuff kind of just stops
and disappears. Whereas we really are reaching
into other eras with this one. You know, we have
Kate Stewart who's come all the way through from
the early half of the Moffat era. We've had...
The Fugitive Doctor now. We've even had Mel from
the classic series. And it's just nice to see
that we're not afraid to kind of bring things
from the show's recent past through here. And
I hope that we do get another proper Fugitive
Doctor episode sometime. I'm not talking about
a little cameo. I'm hoping we get, for some reason,
the current Doctor has to, has to... get into
an adventure with the Fugitive Doctor. I suppose
the closest example I've got would be Coda from
Once and Future where the War Doctor and the
Fugitive Doctor just sort of happen to end up
in an adventure together. I'd like to see something
like that. Or a special... Like, there's all
sorts of rumours about what will happen if there's
a hiatus on TV and, you know, there's talk of,
like, celebrity... and like having a different
doctor every year for a TV movie. And, you know,
we might finally get our Paul McGann movie that's
been like everyone's wanted for the last few
decades. And they might do a Joe Martin movie,
you know, like all the tales of the TARDIS stuff.
And, you know, Dr. Davis's vague comments about
bi -generation potentially being this retroactive
thing, which you've had nothing about. since
the giggle um i feel like that was just him just
just kind of getting a bit carried away um but
but maybe that was set up for oh you know there'll
be a uh a sylvester mccoy special every every
now and then when when our main doctor isn't
available or is busy doing a play or something
and yeah joe martin would be great to see doing
something like that um because yeah because you're
right you don't want her to just keep being the
cameo doctor um you know who turns up and like
everyone really just wants more of but we never
get more than like that that fleeting look at
at that certain point you have to keep stop teasing
and give us something more substantial and there
was a line and a very Very in keeping with like
the whole theme of stories about like, what was
it? Like something about a story might be finished
one day or. Certainly a hint. Something like.
So, yeah, is that hinting? I hope so. But we'll
see. I'm not expecting it, but I'd very much
like it. It felt. I suspect that for COVID reasons.
we never quite got what the original plan for
Joe Martin was in the Jodie Whittaker era, in
the Chibnall era. I always felt as though there
was meant to be another episode. Was there a
plan? But Chibnall's been a bit vague about what
actually was going on there. And maybe that's...
that's fine that like you know you leave that
vague and even the author doesn't know the answers
but he's almost i feel like he said things recently
that make it sound like he didn't know himself
what you know where she sits in the timeline
or who she is i don't necessarily need confirmation
of the timeline but there's a load of stuff with
you know the whole division thing was never really
wrapped up I don't know. It feels as though that
there are dangling threads there. And there is
Big Finish, but... Well, we know that Big Finish
13th Doctor stuff isn't going to deal with that
because it's set before Flux. And there's fugitive
Doctor box sets, but again, I don't think Big
Finish are going to constrain. They're not going
to be allowed to reveal some earth -shattering...
thing that changes the whole nature of Doctor
Who which by the way is what Russell Davis is
hinting at next week's episode being based on
his Doctor Who magazine comments that's not going
to happen in Big Finish so again they're constrained
because like what really radical or amazing things
can they do with revelations about the fugitive
Doctor and the same with the war Doctor you know
they're working within the constraints of like
we know where he ends up and it I've liked a
lot of Board Doctor stuff, but it limits what
they can do with that concept and that setup.
Yeah, we have the start point, we have the end
point, and we have not a lot to go on with the
character, and we're never going to get what
we got with the Eighth Doctor at Big Finish,
which is a whole era that covers so many aspects
of his life and all that kind of thing, because
the future of Board Doctor's characters... aren't
set up like that they're not yeah the current
doctor at big finish at all um and even when
the eighth doctor wasn't like even when we had
the ninth doctor the gulf um the gap was so big
that you could almost still view the eighth doctor
as having this open -ended history which is starting
to close off now but but still i i i saw the
eighth doctors The Eighth Doctor is the current
Doctor at Big Finish, right the way through to
the end of Stranded, easily. It was ongoing adventures
with a Doctor who, okay, by that stage we did
know how he ended, we did know how he regenerated,
but it was a hell of a long way to get there.
Yeah, there's still a bit of a gap, it feels,
between the Liv and Helen era and then the Time
War era. It feels like... I need to catch up
with the last few box sets. I don't know if that's
been filled in even more, but it feels like there's
still a bit of a sort of jump, a vague period
there. There's still questions to be answered,
certainly. Yeah. Anyway, it's interesting, I
think, that the story in the engine has given
us an awful lot to talk about as an episode.
Very good episode. I definitely need to watch
it again. I've only seen it once. And I think
we're absolutely right in terms of it being a
bit ghost -like -ish. You need to give it a couple
of goes before you get everything. But it's interesting
that it's given us an awful lot to talk about,
about the wider Doctor Who universe and various
implications here and there and things we can
compare it to and not compare it to and all that
sort of thing. And at the end of the day, for
the first time ever, as I said at the very start,
I feel like... we've had a big finished story
on screen. And that's not a bad thing. Like,
it feels like we've had a really, really good
big finished story. Like, someone has picked
one of the best and just put it on screen instead
of onto a CD. And I've really enjoyed that. So
it's nice to explore what it has explored. You
know, folklore and stories and... other locations
and the doctors, the way the doctor is perceived
across different regenerations. There's so much
in there to pick apart. And it has kind of led
us on quite an interesting journey of discussion
to various places. So I'm writing this down as
a good episode. And I'm writing everything down
as a good episode. I don't think we've had a
dud at all this series. I don't think we've even
come close to a dud this series so far. No, I
think it's like same as series one. Once you
get past the first episode, it's been really
strong for me. And I think this year's opening
was pretty good as well. I'm a bit anxious about
the finale. I've booked to go see it in the cinema.
And I did book last year, but I was ill, so I
couldn't make it. a bit relieved because I didn't,
then I didn't end up traveling across London.
I booked for it like somewhere just around the
corner this year. Uh, and I'm a bit more optimistic
this year. Um, but also that there are so many
elements to nod to at least, or wrap up in a
satisfying way. Uh, I'm really, really curious
how those last two episodes are gonna, are gonna
try and, wrap things up and give a decent amount
of closure to everything and tell a decent story
in their own right and we know so little about
those last two episodes as well which I'm I mean
last week's you know we don't really know anything
about the rest of this series to be honest we
didn't know anything going into story in the
engine or very little about it We don't know
much about Intergalactic Song Contest beyond
the basic concept of what's going on. And the
finale, all we have really is a title. We have
some ideas of a few people confirmed to be in
it, and I guess it's speculation technically,
but an idea of what story elements you would
expect to be resolved or paid off. Yeah, there's
enough to speculate around. Yeah, yeah. But yeah,
you're right. In terms of what actually happens,
we don't have a clear idea of what the actual
story is going to be. We don't even have an idea
of the villain. We all went into the finale last
time. We'd sort of figured out it was Sutec,
hadn't we? I mean, Connor said on this podcast
months before, oh, it's going to be Sutec. which
was a wild stab in the dark, but it was a wild
stab in the dark that proved to be correct. We
don't have that. We're not sat here going, oh,
Scarath's going to be in the finale. That's my
guess. There doesn't seem to be any of that.
The rumours going around, which probably have
no basis whatsoever, but it seems like the classic
things of Omega, the Rani, the Master. and i've
stayed yeah i've stayed away from like specific
actual verified spoilers apparently there's some
dialogue leaks from the finale i've tried to
avoid um but yeah those those bits of speculations
about who the villain is i can't it can't be
it can't be one of those oh yeah people are saying
like maybe mrs flood is the ronnie but i'd be
well let's see how it pans out but like i'd be
a bit disappointed because she doesn't seem very
ronnie -ish at all to me no and oh my god i don't
i don't know how it could be i mean the master
at least there is like a history of a relationship
with that character that's been really well established
in modern day doctor who that you can lean on
but oh my god like What even hints at that? Oh,
well, we'll continue in our speculations and
see what we can come up with next week. But that's
probably all we've got time for now. So we'll
leave it there. But yeah, roll on the intergalactic
song contest and hopefully it'll leave us with
a lot to talk about. And as we've said, there's
some kind of reveal coming. A really big reveal.
Maybe I think the last performer. in the song
contest will be a masked singer and it will be
Omega wearing his mask. Played by Paul McGann.
Yeah. You heard it here first, listeners. And
on that note, we will leave it there. So thanks
very much for joining me, Mansoor. We'll be back
to discuss the Intergalactic Song Contest next
week. But until then, goodbye.