You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality.
Hello, and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality.
I'm Johnston, and with me this week again, I
have Mansell. Hello. Hello. And we're continuing
to look at each new episode of Doctor Who on
its week of release. This week is Lux, second
episode of season... We're back to seasons, aren't
we? Season two. And I... Straight off the bat,
I liked this one. I thought it was a really good
episode. I felt as though we were finally seeing
the Disney money on screen. You know, all of
this, you know, the production budget is so much
higher now and that sort of thing. This one was
visually fantastic, which we will discuss a little
bit more in a bit. But I thought it was just
a nice sort of... Started off as a good old -fashioned
Doctor Who mystery, Doctor and Companion land
somewhere, there's something weird going on,
let's investigate it. And it sort of turned into
a, maybe, well, I suppose a spiritual sequel
to The Devil's Court, similar thing. Very, very
similar villain, and it's all sort of building
towards some kind of resolution with the Pantheon,
I guess. Yeah, awful lot of fun, this one. Some
really good performances. It looked great. And
I really do like how the Doctor and Belinda work
together. I do think they're a really good pairing.
So your sort of general thoughts on the episode,
Mansour, go ahead. Yeah, I like this one. And
yeah, a lot of parallels with The Devil's Chord.
So when that clip came out ahead of time of them
getting dressed and heading out in the TARDIS,
it seemed a bit odd that Belinda would go from
being so confrontational and questioning to just
having fun. And there is still a bit of a gear
shift, but I like the way that that was part
of the episode, that they were having conversations
right the way through about... coming to trust
him and that wasn't completely dropped. So yeah,
really enjoying their dynamic and also the fact
that Belinda's character has got some continuity
and coherence from the last episode. Yeah, I
quite liked how that uncertainty from Belinda
continued through to this. It would be very easy
to set something like that up and then... drop
it and we never hear from it again. And, you
know, stuff like that has happened in the past.
Remember when Rose was unhappy about Mickey joining
the TARDIS at the end of school reunion and that
seemed to never, ever go anywhere ever again.
Well, there was a time jump with that, wasn't
there? But yeah, like on screen, we didn't see
that. Yeah, there just wasn't. In fact, there
wasn't a time jump, was there? Because didn't
Mickey say something about, oh, great, it's a
spaceship at the start of Girl in the Fireplace?
Oh, yeah, unless they've never landed on that.
Yeah, I think it's something like, oh, I'll get
my spaceship on a first go or something like
that. It's before Boomtown, isn't it? Like, their
dynamic is, like, completely changed at that
point. Yeah. The point being, you know, stuff
like this does get introduced and then very swiftly
dropped. Yeah. I think Nyssa and the destruction
of Trachan as well, that seems to go away pretty
damn quickly. So all this sort of thing. That
was a big thing. Around that same time, Tegan
having her aunt horrifically killed and it not
being mentioned that much, or Adra dying, you
get an episode or two and then it's just forgotten.
And despite Tegan wanting to go home... That
part of it's never really mentioned again. It's
literally just, no, I want to go to work. So
yes, we've not got that, which is a good thing.
It feels like this friendship is earned and being
developed and all that kind of thing. And I think
it's kind of a little thing to want, but it's
definitely something that I do want and something
that I do think is working here. And the flip
side is it didn't. sort of dominate the episode
either. You know, it could very easily have gone
on a bit too long, been a little bit too heavy
-handed and all that kind of thing and kind of
got in the way of telling a story. But there's
such a good story with such a good villain to
be told here that I think we've actually got
quite a good balance. So, yeah, it's really,
really good to see these characters developing.
There were a few little things in there that...
Maybe we could have spent a bit more time on,
but then we don't need the whole usual checklist
of new companion things. We had a new companion
last season and we did, you know, in the last
couple of years, we've explained regeneration,
we've explained bigger on the inside, all of
the usual, you know, this is psychic paper, this
is the sonic screwdriver. That reintroducing
the viewer to all these concepts while introducing
a new companion. We don't really need that. But
at the same time, there was just a reference
to by generation for, I feel as though it was
more the audience's benefit than Belinda's because
there was no real context given to Belinda. She
probably walked away from that going, well, what
the hell is he on about? But it makes his hand
better and he glows a bit. So, okay, carry on.
And I thought that was a little bit odd that
he would have used up that reserve of energy
on his head. And maybe he was hiding how much
pain he was in, but it didn't seem like the sort
of critical injury that you would use that for.
It's not quite having a hand chopped off, is
it? No. But, you know, the rules between healing
and regeneration energy have always been slightly...
and by generation is a different thing. So I
guess, yeah, I can let it slide. It's not harming
the episode for me. So, yeah, I think that while
some little bits were a bit clumsy and maybe
a bit rushed, I do like the dynamic between the
Doctor and Belinda and I like where it's going.
I like that she does trust him more now than
she did last week. But it took an adventure to
kind of get through that. I just hope things
do develop like, you know, next week. I hope
there is something else. I hope there's something
that makes her doubt the doctor a little bit
more or makes her want to get home a bit more
or just something to move it forward. It would
be a real shame to have all of that fantastic
set up in Robot Revolution. low -key but still
effective continuation in looks it would be a
shame to just kind of go right the friends now
and they're carrying on as normal and that's
that um obviously getting a home is part of the
the series storyline but i still want to see
the actual characters developing and that kind
of thing happening yeah and we've only got like
a limited number of episodes to do that we've
had two already there's six left and two of those
are going to be taken up with the finale where
there's probably going to be a lot going on so
yeah that's one of my hopes that in those four
episodes in the middle is enough to fit in some
good development with Belinda who like I really
like how different the relationship is to Ruby's
and it's sort of paralleling Rose and then Martha
a little bit but I think it's more interesting
than the relationship between the Tenth Doctor
and Martha, where that was kind of just like
one note of it being a bit of an imbalanced relationship
and the Doctor actually not treating her particularly
well because he was just talking about Rose and
focusing on Rose. We don't have any of that here
with him going on about Ruby to Belinda. And
I think... the Belinda and the 15th Doctor's
relationship has got so many more layers to it,
which is, like I said last week, one of my favourite
bits of Robot Revolution, that scene at the end.
It's going to be interesting to see how Belinda
and Ruby and the Doctor kind of, you know, we
know that... all three characters are going to
be together further on in the season. So it's
going to be interesting to see how they kind
of mesh, I guess. And I mean, I still don't quite
know what's happening with Ruby. Is she coming
back sort of working for unit now, Mel style
going to be in a few episodes or is she kind
of rejoining the TARDIS further along in this
series? Like it's all been a little bit, not
inconsistent, but it's not been particularly,
Any press releases, that kind of thing, haven't
been particularly forthcoming. When Belinda was
first announced, it was very much, we're going
to have two companions in the TARDIS with the
Doctor, which kind of implies that Ruby's travelling
again. But she's not in the trailer all that
much. And from what I can gather, she does just
seem to be popping up with Unit. So I don't quite
know where that's going. I mean, given how much
of a meal was made of them saying goodbye at
the end of season one, I'd be really surprised
if she's back travelling full -time for more
than maybe an episode or two. Maybe what they
mean is she is there for the finale or the last
couple of episodes, in the same way that Mel
was travelling with them at the end of season
one. Or the same way that Martha came back in.
Series 4. Yeah, Martha is what I assumed the
model would be. They're popping back and occasionally
there might be a triple two that they come along
on. I'd say it was just the wording of that press
release, you know, the Doctor's going to have
two companions travelling with him in the TARDIS.
And it even said something like, for the first
ever time, because all the fandom went, what
are you on about? Like, okay, you know, I'm happy
to... not count Amy and Rory. They're a married
couple. I suppose if you squint, that doesn't
count. But we still had two companions in the
TARDIS for Flux, and we had two companions in
the TARDIS when Martha came back in Series 4.
So, yeah, don't know. But if Ruby is sort of
back travelling with them for the second half
of the series or whatever, I do hope that...
that there's still some sort of questioning and
conflict between the Doctor and Belinda. I hope
it doesn't just all smooth out because Ruby's
there now and they're just three best mates kind
of thing because that's not how Belinda has been
set up and it wouldn't be fair on the character
to just kind of smooth everything over because
we've got another friend there now as well. I
guess. Yeah. And what the relationship between
Ruby and Belinda might be like. Yes, that's what
it's worth. Because Ruby was always the sort
of very enthusiastic, yes, I'd love to travel,
really enjoying this. I mean, I still don't think
her sort of exit was properly earned. I don't
think... It's just enough time to like... Because
we had two seasons of Rose when she first left
and that... had and two long seasons and ruby
we had like one short season i think that was
just a major factor like we just didn't have
enough time to be invested enough to to to care
when they split apart and and it wasn't like
them being ripped apart by a dimensional wall
it was she's spending some time with her family
it's not like he's never going to see her again
Yeah, I kind of wish it had ended on a more I'm
just dropping you off for a bit, I'll see you
later kind of way. Because we knew she was coming
back, we knew she was going to be in this second
series even at the time. So yeah, I don't know.
The way it was handled felt a bit funny and I
hope that whatever we're getting with Ruby later
on in this series is. Just sort of handled it
a little bit better. And, you know, if the end
of the series is time for Ruby, Belinda, whoever
to go, I hope it's a proper goodbye and not just
a, oh, well, we found your mum, mystery solved,
off you pop. We'll see. We'll see what happens.
And, of course, Ruby's reappearance could tie
in to Mrs. Flood quite well as well, because
obviously, you know, Ruby knew Mrs. Flood lived.
Was it next door, a few doors down, whatever
from it, that kind of thing? Yeah, same street.
Yeah, so there's more to be done there, I think,
more to be kind of picked up on. So, back to
looks. This episode, the thing that struck me
the most was how fantastic it looked. Like, it
set out from the start to be... a very visual
episode. It's an episode that deals with the
God of Light from the Pantheon. So we've had
the God of Music in The Devil's Call, the Maestro,
and that. That was very, very music -focused.
That was an episode that had to sound great,
and it did. But we don't necessarily equate how
good an episode sounds with... The cost of that
episode, the budget of that episode, and the
one thing that I've seen mentioned a lot about
looks is it finally feels like we're seeing that
Disney money on the screen. And it certainly
can't have been a cheap episode to produce. Not
only do we have to recreate the 1950s, and it
looked good. It looked very, very good. You know,
definitely. sort of in the vein of Back to the
Future and that kind of thing, recreating that
era. They did a good job. It was believable.
But we've also got this sort of very visually
impressive villain. I believe that Lux was actually
animated, like hand -drawn, if what I've sort
of read briefly on Instagram. It's true, if I've
interpreted it correctly, they've sort of traditionally
animated it and it's not just another CGI creation,
which is brilliant, it's just what you'd want.
But we also had this fantastic sequence of the
Doctor and Belinda being animated and we had
sort of all the great stuff of them breaking
through the screen. Yeah, it was a very visually
impressive episode and I think it... I'm not
sure it is fair to say this is the first time...
that Disney money is believably being visible
on the screen. I think maybe it's the best it's
been showed off. Yeah, it's just sort of an interesting
point. Is there anything you want to sort of
add to that at all? I mean, I agree it looked
really good, but I felt like there were, like
right from the Star Beast, I think there's been
like just impressive visuals and like... really
careful blending of physical and um cgi effects
with like doing as much as i can practically
and then enhancing it and um yeah so star beast
um what else like the church on ruby rose like
this there's yeah it didn't strike me like oh
this is the first time you're seeing that you
know that disney money um but that it did stand
out in terms of like just creatively what they
were doing in this episode and the attention
to detail again with the adding like little bits
of grain to to mr reading and like the yeah just
the the animation of that main character i think
was really really good um and well i think the
animation and also the vocal performance are
the things that that made that work for me with
Alan Cummings. This whole Disney money needs
to appear on screen thing from day one has kind
of, I mean, I've not quite got it because at
the end of the day, yeah, you know, on Disney
+, there are some very, very visually fantastic
and impressive series. You know, it cannot be
denied that. A lot of the Marvel stuff looks
very good. A lot of the Star Wars stuff looks
absolutely fantastic. But I think people are
underestimating how much it actually takes to
produce something that looks all right on screen
now. I've seen sort of calls for, oh, Doctor
Who needs to go back to its low budget. It's
like, well, TV's not made like that anymore.
There's no modern equivalent to making something
look good on a shoestring like, I don't know,
Planet of Evil or Talons or something like that.
That just doesn't exist anymore. It's not a thing.
And we don't need... Go on. I was just going
to say, it's sort of sitting... In the middle,
you have these things like Star Wars and Marvel,
and if my understanding is right, Doctor Who's
budget is nowhere near those big franchises.
So they are still relative to those biggest things
that are out there, like getting less money,
and they are still having to think about how
to do things creatively and make the most of
what they have. Yeah, absolutely. That's it,
though. Disney isn't just handing out the same
amount of money to absolutely everything it produces.
It's a well -known fact that Doctor Who has consistently
made more money than anything else for the BBC
pretty much since it came back. I can't think
of anything off the top of my head that's ever
properly rivaled it in terms of revenue. you
know maybe maybe top gear when clarks and hammond
and may were still on it that kind of thing but
like you know strictly come dancing eastenders
top gear there's not going to be the amount of
well maybe top gear has the international audience
but you're not going to have as many like you
know books dvds toys connected to those shows
strictly has the stage shows i guess or the tours
and that kind of thing. I don't know. But Doctor
Who's in a very unique position where it's very,
very marketable. Every week there is something
new that you can create merchandise from. I've
just seen, literally before starting to record
this podcast, a Mr. Dingling pin badge. And we're
recording this on Monday. The episode first went
out on Saturday. And it's not taken long for
that to be available for pre -order. So there's
the merchandise with Doctor Who's just insane.
You know, look at some of the figures and sets
and that kind of thing that we've had. Like personally,
I don't really go for them, collect them. But
like you can get a Vord action figure, which
I still find completely insane. Having said that,
there's something I've heard today, which is
for the next year, there's very little that's
been announced in terms of upcoming merchandise,
like even less than last few years, which might
be, again, part of that sort of theory that there
is going to be a gap, or a bit of a lull at least.
But the merchandise carried on. in the wilderness
years. We had regular book ranges. We had audios
towards the end of it. Big Finish isn't going
anywhere. We know they've got the license for
another five years. Yeah, I don't know. Doctor
Who does seem to make a lot of money, and it's
still got to work within reason, though. It doesn't
make as much money as the MCU or Star Wars. and
therefore it's not going to have that level of
money sunk into it. I do think that we couldn't
have had looks done as well previously in any
other era. Maybe that's the sign of the Disney
money on screen. I don't know. But, like, can
you imagine them trying to produce looks in,
I don't know, David Tennant's first? I think
the animation is... Anything like that. I can
see, like... Because there were period stories,
I could see a version of it, but I think it's
the animation that would be the weakest link
if it was done in previous eras. I'm thinking
something like the Lazarus experiment, for example.
That's not an episode that's aged particularly
well. Nearly 20 years later, or 18 years later,
it doesn't look particularly amazing. Whereas
I think this will still look good in 15, 20 years'
time. Which will be interesting to see. I think
it will. Although, like Lazarus, I think Doctor
Who, even going back into the classic series,
has always been good with the setting for period
stories, like costumes and sets and things. With
the Lazarus experiment, it's when you have that
monster on top of it that can be more challenging
to get right. I think that monster is just, it's
there with the giant rat from Talons or the magma
beast or, you know, anything else that always
gets wheeled out as wide as Doctor Who look dreadful.
I mean, it's not quite Mirka bad, but, you know,
we're judging a 20 -year -old piece of CGI that
did not have. this amount of cash spent on it,
whereas Mr. Engeling did look fantastic. So it's,
yeah, it works. I like it. I'd like sort of the
fact that, you know, we are, Doctor Who is achieving
things visually that it hasn't been able to before,
but I think it's doing it at a level that it
can do and a level that it can sustain. I don't
think it's going to fly off into. looking like
Star Wars anytime soon and nor should it either.
Well the main thing is it's doing it it's making
the most of what it has but still having some
weirdness and creativity it's not just like creating
the spectacle for the sake of it it's serving
the story and it's doing it in interesting ways
with an interesting performance behind it. Yeah
and it's lots of things made looks work well.
I think that just because of the concept and
because of the idea, it had to be an episode
that looked good just to start with. And it did
that. And just the fact that we had such a great
performance from Alan Cumming, the fact that
the Doctor and Belinda are such a brilliant team,
the fact that it was able to push sort of crazy
concepts like the Doctor and Belinda stepping
out of a TV screen and meeting some Doctor Who
fans who were... you know, wearing the Telos
t -shirt and a scarf and all that sort of thing.
I think it was a really great way to just explore
some of this sort of slightly bizarre meta stuff
that, you know, has been part of the conversation
for quite a while. You know, I know that this
podcast we've discussed sort of the concept of
Doctor Who as a TV programme in universe. I know
that that's a theory that Mark's sort of championing
quite a bit. we were obviously sort of bending
reality and we have things like the Toymaker
and other Pantheon characters. And yeah, it just,
we're able to explore concepts that Doctor Who
hasn't really explored before. And that's, that's
good. And if that's a budget thing, then fantastic.
You know, let's, let's see what we can do that
we couldn't previously with that. But also if
it is just an ideas and concept thing, then let's
keep playing with that as well. do it the best
we can. It seems to be doing quite well at this
point. So Lux was a Pantheon character, so we've
had quite a bit of the Pantheon now. Toymaker,
Zootac, Maestro, and so on. I do wonder, are...
are we still sort of aiming for Pantheon characters
to be a big bad? Is there some kind of big leader
behind the Pantheon, you know, a god of gods
type thing? Is this going somewhere, or are we
just going to use it as an excuse to get a load
of reality -bending type characters in? I think
it has to be. Yeah, I don't know. It sort of
doesn't quite feel like it's particularly going
anywhere, and it feels like, as a concept, it's
getting a bit cheaper every time it's used now,
because, you know, the Toymaker was a really,
really good choice of villain for the giggle.
You know, we've known the Toymaker since Early
Doctor, who was this sort of big, powerful, omnipotent,
reality -bending character. And, you know, the
Doctor had to beat the Toymaker at his own game.
as has always been established. But now we just
seem to have lots of characters that can do weird,
visually impressive things, but then be beaten
at their own game because there's this set of
rules. And ultimately, it's always going to sort
of end the same way. I like the idea of the Doctors
battling slightly higher -level villains than
usual, but also it's slightly higher -level villains
than usual that... do seem to be getting defeated
sort of easily. So, yeah, I just... I'm hoping
this Pantheon thing doesn't drag on for too long
because it's going to get fairly, save me fairly
quickly, I think. I'm enjoying it, don't get
me wrong, but I think it has a sell -by date.
That's the danger of having, like, threats that
are built up so much and then... having to resolve
that in 45 minutes and even in the two -part
finale last year um it's going to have to be
wrapped up in what risks seeming like too easy
in a way like this week i liked the resolution
and the way it all played out but um to an extent
the doctor and blender didn't do loads to because
If I'm following it right, Lux chose to go out
into the open and that's what defeated them,
just being absorbed into the universe. So maybe
the Doctor and Belinda hurried that process along
by giving him the regeneration energy and letting
him out. But I could see that playing out without
them turning up, like Lux eventually finds his
way out of the cinema somehow. some other way
and um and the same thing happens um but yeah
it is a danger like the the talking about like
the wilderness years books and the new adventures
did a lot of stuff with gods and things like
that what i liked about that and what which is
like a lot easier to do when you've got the space
of a series of like you know 50 60 novels um
there were major consequences for for the Doctor,
like moral compromises he had to make, losses
that he had that were kind of the result of deals
made with cosmic entities. So maybe that's the
thing, like however things get wrapped up at
the end of this season, for there to be some
consequence or some impact so it's not just all
done and forgotten about. Yeah, and the Doctor
does seem to be sort of bumping off a god every
three weeks at the moment, and it feels fairly
consequence -free. I'm aware that the pantheon
and all of these godlike characters appearing
is a consequence of something the Doctor did
in Wild Blue Yonder, or at least is hinted to
be. But what actually are the consequences? Because...
Well, more or less, everybody lived. I know the
caretaker didn't in looks, but more or less everybody
lived. You know, the giggle didn't have a high
body count. Everybody more or less lived in.
The Sutec two -parter. And I think the only real
victim of the maestro was June Hudson. So it's
kind of... These don't feel like big... end -of
-the -universe shattering threats, and they should
do. It doesn't have to be a physical cost, because
he wasn't fighting gods, but the way the Tenth
Doctor ended up, there was the whole thing about
the timeline of Victorious and the impact on
his character of going too far and hubris and
all of that, and there was the death in Waters
of Mars, which was really impactful. But there
was an arc and an impact from his actions, even
though he was winning and beating those monsters
in individual episodes. So that would be something
that it impacts on the Doctor or someone else
in some really significant way. I think it would
perhaps help to have a Pantheon -focused episode.
not on Earth. I know part of the storyline here
is that Earth has been destroyed, or at least
has hinted to have been, but that's not going
to be a Doctor Who permadeath, is it? That's
never going to stick. We've had the Earth be
destroyed and come back quite a few times in
Doctor Who in the past. Whereas I would quite
like to see one of these godlike pantheon characters
actually have some kind of apocalyptic effect
you know let's let's have them wipe out alien
planet number 745 or whatever let's actually
see the real damage that these characters can
do because everything that we've seen them do
so far more or less has been reversible on defeat
and defeat has come fairly easily for all of
them um so yeah i kind of want to see the actual
impact of these characters i want to see i know
we've seen what would happen to earth if they
just left the maestro to it for 30 years or whatever
but that's that's not it's still not hammering
home what these characters are capable of and
i think to up the threat let's see them I don't
know, Decimator, Androzani or something like
that. You get the idea. Something that isn't
going to be reversed, something that's going
to stick. Well, that was quite a big contrast
with, like, we were talking about Marvel earlier,
right? So in that CTEK two -party, you have everyone,
like, dusted in a very similar way to half the
population are in Marvel's Infinity War. And,
yes, those people come back in... the next Marvel
movie, but it's not consequence -free. Those
people who had gone away had lost five years,
and it's picked up to varying degrees in the
shows and movies that come on after that. Whereas
in the Doctor Who finale last year, there are
far fewer consequences or impacts. It's all just
like reset, pretty much back to normal. So little
things like that. And I know that that then has
that impact on future storytelling because you
have to remember those world -changing events
that you set up. And Doctor Who kind of keeps
going through patterns of rolling those things
back to reset back to normal. Is it season five
or season six where the cracks were used as an
explanation as to why people didn't remember
the Daleks or the Cybermen? bits like that Doctor
Who doesn't seem to want to change the status
quo of the real world which I guess is understandable
but I think it would be interesting if they did
play with that a bit more I think the other thing
about Doctor Who is there's no there's no bible
and there's no established what is canon type
thing And therefore, you know, we can have...
I mean, how many times has Gallifrey been destroyed
in the expanded universe? You know, it's got
to be on TV. Is that two or three times? Well,
TV's been a couple of times. I was reading something
earlier, actually, that sort of said, like, this
time round, it's difficult to believe that the
Doctor's the last Time Lord. Like, was nobody
not on Gallifrey when... when it was destroyed
by the Master. Because Rassilon was sent off
in hell -bent and all that. We have seen Time
Lords leave Gallifrey. Doesn't he talk about
Susan in ambiguous terms as well? I'm trying
to think back to last year. When he mentions
her fleetingly, it's like he's unsure of where
she is, not that she was back on Gallifrey and
she died. Yeah. And there just doesn't seem to
be any level of consistency to that. I mean,
there's no consistency as to whether Gallifrey's
destroyed or not, really, when you take the last
20 years into account. But, yeah, I don't buy
that every single Time Lord was on Gallifrey
when the Master did what he did. The whole last
Time Lord thing just doesn't quite feel as...
as solid this time as it did when the Time War
was what had destroyed it up to... I wonder if,
you know, saying, like, it's a resolution going
to be focused on the pantheon, the gods, I wonder
if it's going to be bringing together things
like Gallifrey, Susan, and this god stuff, like,
you know, maybe the ultimate villain is some
Time Lord god or gods. And maybe the real pantheon
was the friends we made along the way. There's
so many little things, like the mentions of Susan,
and we might get to the end of season two and
go, okay, we've just been mentioning her a few
times. But it feels like some of these things
are set up or being mentioned just a couple of
times too many to just be random lines. Yeah,
the sort of rug pull with it not being Susan
last series was a bit strange after how much
it had been signposted. It feels like that's
something that needs to be continued and so far
it's not really been, but we'll see. Again, this
is ongoing. We are dealing with something that
is very bit clearly being set up as a multi -series
arc. This is at least a two -series arc and we
are. at the start of the second series still
we're a quarter of the way into the second series
when you consider the the episode can but you
get my point yeah there's a fair bit left so
i kind of am interested or excited about like
these big concepts coming in at the end but then
what we were saying earlier i don't want that
to be to the detriment of just having like a
solid character arc for belinda and her story
and just telling something more self -contained.
I think that should be the priority. And then
gods and universe ending events should be the
sort of window dressing around that. Yeah, agreed.
It should all be pieces that make up the puzzle
and we shouldn't make just one piece bigger because
it's the last week of the series or whatever.
Yeah. Okay, other sort of big point from this
episode then was the, the kind of breaking of
the fourth wall, the Doctor and Belinda crawling
out of a TV and meeting three overly stereotypical
Doctor Who fans, like I say, Scarf to watch the
series and Telos T -shirt and all that kind of
thing. And I liked this sequence. I thought this
sequence worked well for a minute or two. it
just felt like it went on a little bit too much.
Like, it was a nice little cutaway gag, but it
then outstayed its welcome. And, you know, three,
four, five minutes after meeting these characters,
we get, oh, they're not real and they're going
to die, and sort of the Doctor trying to force
the message to us of us at home that it's all
very sad and these people are an inadvertent
creation of... everything that's been going on
and uh and then of course at the end it turns
out that they they were still there and still
aware and um it was all a bit strange and again
feels like it it's another piece in a puzzle
it feels like it's going somewhere um i think
it would have worked as a standalone joke had
it just sort of gone on for two minutes stopped
and gone away but the whole about the actual
existence of these characters and that kind of
thing muddied things a little bit. I did like
the references. I liked the fact that they all
thought blink was the best thing ever and the
Doctor kind of turning around going, yeah, but
what about the one with the goblins or the one
where it was on the landmine? That was good and
that was fun. That was a laugh and, you know,
nice, nice nod to blink, which is still beloved.
But yeah, I thought it was quite a good little
sequence. I thought it was okay. I just thought
it outstayed its welcome. But the fact it outstays
its welcome makes me think that maybe there's
more to it and that we may get a bit more out
of it, particularly with a series finale title
like The Reality War. Yeah, I think that's something
there. I was just thinking back to other times
the show is done on TV. There's loads more in
the extended universe, but on TV, there's stand
-ins for fans. And it's never been quite as directly
meta as this week. But there's stuff in Greatest
Show in the Galaxy with Wizkid. And then I think
also like Love and Monsters, like that whole
group of people in Linda. Well, there's a lot
going on about stand -ins for fans with the Absorber
off as well. There's them as well that are kind
of interested in the Doctor, looking for the
Doctor. For me, the three characters in Lux sort
of fit in between in terms of how much I liked
how they were done. The top for me is Love and
Monsters and Elton Pope and everyone in Linda.
I think that's the most fun, interesting, engaging.
example of like building a whole episode around
that concept of fans of the doctor um but yeah
i thought it was all right i've heard a lot about
the outstanding the welcome thing and i can sort
of see that that the biggest thing for me was
the the the music and um that other people have
said and i completely agree that it almost felt
like parody like how how loud the music was getting
at the end. And it was really nice music and
calling back to some of the best themes from
previous seasons, which makes a lot of sense,
again, with the whole meta nature of the scene.
But it was so loud that it was like really sledgehammering
home the message and the genuine emotion that
they wanted to get across. And I thought, yeah,
the mix could have just been taken down a little
bit or there could have just been like a little
less music. But yeah, the scene itself worked
for me. And I do agree with you that that end
credits bit and combined with episode titles
and the things that Mrs. Flood is dropping, it
all makes me think that there is something that
we're going to come back to with the land of
fiction or the god of stories or something going
on around reality. The walls of reality breaking
down. I'm not sure exactly what, but something.
I'd be very surprised if it doesn't link to Mrs.
Flood breaking the fourth wall and that kind
of thing. Let's address this then. So obviously
there's rumours, various news outlets and all
this kind of thing about the show being cancelled.
Doctor Who's been cancelled. This is the last
ever series. We're getting this in a spin -off,
and then that's it, done. And I've thought all
along, this just sounds like something Russell
T. Davis is keeping fairly quiet about, sort
of fueling ever so slightly, just to get Doctor
Who in the press. Like, it's free advertising,
isn't it? You know, Doctor Who might be being
cancelled. It's definitely... It's going to get
newspapers talking about it, and if you sort
of... You know, subscribe to the belief that
somebody talking about you is a good thing regardless
of what they're saying. So I've thought about
this all along. But now the series seems to directly
be addressing the concept of its own cancellation,
which makes me just think the whole thing is
bobbins and it's all sort of very meta, handling
the press, that kind of thing. And if that's
the case, I really, really like it. And it does
play into the whole concept of reality wars.
Doctor Who fans meeting the Doctor in episode
and Mrs. Flood breaking the fourth wall. It all
seems to be sort of very, very linked. And if
this is what's going on, it's very, very clever.
You know, I do like the idea of let's drop rumours
of Doctor Who being cancelled so that the Mirror
and the Sun or whatever report it. And actually
it's all just an in -universe. meta -y type storyline
thing that's been going on anyway. Or maybe I'm
just being really, really optimistic that Doctor
Who is not being cancelled. I don't know. It
could be some combination. Like maybe Russell
T. Davis always knew that there would be a pause
and that's just how the deal would work in terms
of recommissioning. And it's just making a virtue
of that. Maybe it is still uncertain, but he's
playing off of that and weaving it into the actual
story of the show. Yeah, it could be either.
And like you said, Doctor Who has done this sort
of thing before. Love and Monsters and certainly
the greatest show in the galaxy. I'll forever
question the decision to have Wizkid wandering
around going, oh, it's not as good as it used
to be. Yeah, that's a bit of an own goal, that
is. But, yeah, it's obviously all leading to
something, and I can't help but think that this
sort of real -world press scare, and it is just
a scare. At the end of the day, there's no actual
conversation beyond, oh, well, we'll find out
at the end of the series. And I'm actually starting
to think that... The series is going to end with
Mrs. Flood confirming Series 3 or something along
those lines, you know. Oh, we'll be back at Christmas.
It's already filmed, that sort of thing, you
know. So it'll be very curious to see kind of
what's going on. Maybe we won't get a series
next year. Maybe that's what The War Between
the Land and Sea is for. It's to kind of fill
that gap. um i just i don't know it's all speculation
at this point but it's good speculation and if
if the series itself is playing on the concept
of fan speculation then yeah let's go with it
it's going to be a hell of a ride yeah i think
it's interesting yeah either way like you say
because like there are so many other shows that
have done like an episode where you question
whether where the characters start to question
whether their reality is the real world or not,
like Buffy and Deep Space Nine and loads of other
shows, I'm sure. But it's always been very self
-contained, like there's either a definitive
answer at the end or a bit of uncertainty, but
then you move on and the series gets back to
normal. So I like the concept of Doctor Who seeding
this. through and potentially picking it up at
the end of a series that was like the original
the series finale of deep space nine i think
there was a concept of coming back to that idea
that um that the captain sis the captain cisco
was actually a 1950s sci -fi author and bringing
that thread back in to have the final shot be
him walking through the paramount lot and they
They didn't go with that in the end, but I could
see Doctor Who being brave or interesting enough
to do something weird like that at the end of
the series. I say go down the Red Dwarf route
and have it all be a video game. But again, Red
Dwarf has done that a couple of times with Back
to Earth, the video game one, but they've always
walked it back in a very definitive way of like
it was. the dream squid or it was a VR game again
I could see Doctor Who being the one where they're
kind of brave enough to go oh it is just this
or just leave it on an ambiguous note at the
end yeah let it stick for a little bit at least
yeah all very interesting and I hope that I hope
that it continues to be interesting. I hope there's
no cop out and I hope there's no press this big
red button and you're not a TV series anymore,
which there's certainly a danger of, but it's
going to be a hell of a journey regardless. And
I'm enjoying this series so far. I think that
it's ticked a lot of boxes for me already that
maybe the last one didn't. I did not enjoy the
last series. I just felt as though we were missing.
certain types of story, certain types of character.
And I feel as though we've pretty much got a
lot of that in the first two weeks of this series.
It feels more confident as like the fact that
we'll be getting into the arc in the first episode,
that there's like a mission for getting Belinda
home. Yeah, it just feels like it's got the confidence
to start running with things, which again would
be like a massive parallel to... the classic
series seasons 25 and 26 it's like just when
that era was starting to find its voice and to
tell some amazing stories it was it was cancelled
so like worst case scenario we could be looking
at something similar where it ends but it maybe
ends on a high that's well regarded for decades
afterwards which well I've said it many times
before We would never have had Rose if we didn't
have survival. Despite there being the 16 -year
gap, like, Rose is absolutely a continuation
of where Doctor Who started to go with survival,
like that type of story, that kind of domestic
mystery setting type thing. And it's something
that's served Doctor Who incredibly well since.
Lots of other novels, but I think... The novels
you could trace back to survival as well, because
they were picking up on the direction that, but
the importance of the companion was going in
and the character of the doctor. So yeah, I think
you're right. Survival is, well, what was going
on in series 25, 26 is like what set up the 2005
show. Definitely. Let's just hope that the reality
war isn't this generation survival. We'll see.
Well, that's probably a good point to leave it.
We'll come back next week and we'll talk about
the next episode, which, if certain rumours,
alleged leaks, so on, would leave you to believe,
will be really, really good. Like, by all accounts,
we're on for a good 'un this week. So we'll be
back to talk about that. Roll it on. But for
now, thanks very much for joining me, Mansour.
It's been good to talk about another episode.
Yep, thank you. And we will be back next week.
Goodbye now.