You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality.
I reckon we should name her a star that. Get
a little bit of paper. This star is called Spodcast.
Hello and welcome to a podcast of Spurious Morality.
I'm Johnston and this week I'm joined by Mansour.
Hello. Hello. And we've got a new episode of
Doctor Who to talk about, which is always exciting.
We're going to try and keep up with this series.
We've kind of paused our podcast schedule that
we had planned out last summer. And we're going
to talk about the new series week on week and
see how we get on. So quite exciting. New Doctor
Who. The Robot Revolution was episode one. Had
quite a lot to do. Fit quite a lot into, I think
it was about 50, 55 minutes. Introduced new companions.
Set up a few things for the rest of the series.
Carried on a few mysteries from the last one.
And just generally, generally was a pretty decent
episode, actually. I think it was quite good.
What were sort of your initial thoughts on it?
uh same i thought um like quite a solid opener
and like with a lot of season openers even going
back to rose uh the the villain and that thread
was relatively light but it was focusing on introducing
a new companion and just doing some of that character
work and i thought it was yeah really successful
uh yeah in terms of introducing belinda and yeah
Yeah, introducing Belinda was definitely the
priority. And I quite liked how for the first
sort of 15 minutes or so of the episode, it pretty
much focused on her. The Doctor was kind of in
the periphery and the Doctor kind of became the
main character as the episode went on. But it
took a little while to get there. But it wasn't...
You know, we sort of have done similar things
before, particularly with Rose and Smith and
Jones, where there was a heavy focus on Rose
and Martha for the first little bit. Yeah, same
sort of template. Yeah. But I felt this actually
spent a little bit more time on Belinda than
either of those two. It felt like it was just
a little bit later into the episode before the
Doctor got fully introduced and had the, you
know, I'm the Doctor moment. He'd been working
away in the background, obviously. It's established
that he'd been on the planet for six months and
all that kind of thing and seemed to have a sort
of pseudo -companion already, although she got
killed pretty quickly. So, yeah, I quite liked
that focus and I think that worked well. We just
spent a little bit of time getting to know the
companion and getting to see their reaction to
all the weird stuff going on. alien world and
all that kind of thing before the Doctor is introduced.
Whereas in Smith and Jones and Rose, the Doctor
is introduced kind of before slash as it all
gets weird, whereas we kind of got the weird
moment before the Doctor came into it this time.
So I quite like that. It's, like I say, similar
template to what RTD's done before, but it just
sort of... went a step further. And I feel as
though I know Belinda a little bit better after
one episode than arguably any other companion.
So that's good. Same. And I think it really helps
that Belinda, I feel, is already a relatively
interesting and different companion. She's got
those elements of like Tegan and Donna and being
like a bit more challenging or oppositional with
the Doctor. But I felt like in this episode,
it's played a lot straighter and a lot more sincerely
than in those other examples at times. Like with
Donna, certainly it was much more played for
laughs, like when she's getting to know the Doctor
in those first couple of episodes. But here,
and I guess we'll get into it when we get into
those final scenes, but it's much more kind of
dramatic and interesting and layered, I thought.
Yeah, and it just feels as though we know this
character, this companion, a little bit better
than we have any others after one episode. And
I think we might not be spending all that much
time with her. It could well be that we have
eight episodes with Belinda now and that's it.
That could be all of it. And we know Ruby's coming
back into the series at some point. Do we know
what point Ruby's coming back into it at all?
Is it episode four? Is it the unit one? Episode
four, I feel like. Fair enough. Yeah, I've kind
of not looked into that. I think it's Lucky Day.
Yeah, the fourth one. So, you know, we're going
to spend more time with Ruby anyway. We know
about that. And Ruby's already had nine episodes,
ten if you count the Joy to the World cameo.
So it's... Yeah, I think it's important that
we did get to know Belinda a little bit quicker.
And I think just giving her a little bit more
focus of that first episode was the right way
of doing it. And obviously, you know, it turned
out the entire focus of the episode was kind
of on her. You know, we go to a planet named
after her and all that kind of thing. And there's
still a mystery there for the Doctor to pull
apart. But then you kind of have this moment
at the end where the Doctor kind of... goes through
her time stream and knows everything about her
and all that kind of thing and it it sort of
it kind of skips a lot of the doctor getting
to know the companion while we've actually had
time to get to know her as well so they're diving
straight in anyway they're not sort of messing
about and taking a few episodes to introduce
her i think you need to do that oh sorry go on
well i was going to say which they kind of did
with ruby you know we kind of got church on ruby
road we got space babies and then by the time
we got to devil's court it was oh we've been
together for six months now and all this is going
on and the tardis is perfectly normal and all
that sort of thing i wonder if that's going to
be if that if that gap is going to be filled
in this series because i've heard something about
like a russell d davis had said something about
like a flashback to something in series one um
So I wonder if there's like some grand plan and
that wasn't just a bit of, that wasn't just an
odd time jump. It was something that's going
to be filled in. But what you're saying about
getting stuck into getting to know Belinda, I
think the same with like the series arc. I think
with eight episodes, you don't want to, you don't
want to pad, you can't pad things out and, you
know, wait a few episodes to start introducing
this stuff. You have to get it going in episode
one to... to have room to do anything interesting
with it. So I liked that they set up her character
and they got the arc story for the season kicked
off as well. Yeah, and continued kind of brings
us on to our next talking point, actually. Continued
what's going on. We had Mrs. Flood pop up at
the start and it turns out she's living next
door to Belinda, which isn't where she was last
series. And she breaks the fourth wall again,
which I think is quite significant. She's done
that a few times now. At first we kind of all
just sort of cast it off as a bit of a gimmick
and, yeah, good joke, she's broken the fourth
wall. But it seems to be something she does.
It feels like more than that now at this point.
You're right, like once or twice, like end of
the Christmas special, end of series one, you
could maybe write off a couple of them. it's
becoming a very conspicuous thing with her. Yeah,
it's good that we've got something that's gone
on over more than one series. We've had a lot
of one -series storylines that haven't quite
padded out or haven't had time to breathe. I'm
thinking back to Series 9 when we had The Hybrid,
which was a... A fairly cool idea that never
quite got explored beyond the idea of a hybrid
being mentioned once per episode. Whereas Mrs.
Flood, it feels like there's genuinely a mystery
being built up. There's something going on there.
And I think I've read somewhere that she's in
every episode this season. I don't know if I've
made that up or not. Yeah, because there are
cast lists. for some of the episodes at least.
But yeah, she's definitely popping up in, it
seems like, the majority at least. Yeah. Which
is worth noting we did kind of have last year
with the Susan Triad character. So I'm not entirely
sure, you know, are we just repeating the sort
of tease from last year again here? Or is this
going to go in a different direction? Because...
I liked the idea of the same face, the same actor
turning up in each episode. That really worked
well. But then at the same time, it worked well
last series. Is it going to work as well this
series or are we just sort of going to go weekly
cameo again? Yeah. Like on the surface, it's
the same. But I guess like... the implication
at least is that this is the same mrs flood and
all these locations and that's the mystery of
like how does this person get to all these different
places when he thought she was just ruby's neighbor
initially uh so so yeah it's it's kind of but
then that's this is one of the things i was thinking
about this whole era and mark and i talked about
it a bit in the the retrospective episodes um
i'm enjoying a lot of it and those those retrospectives
reminded me of how much i enjoyed in series one
and at the same time i keep getting reminded
of how and this might this is completely like
my expectations like going into this second russell
t davis episode in my head i sort of thought
he's going to do something really you know mad
and radical he's going to take all of those other
dramas that he's done in the in between years
and and completely reinvent what Doctor Who is.
And that's probably a silly expectation because
it's a format that you can't stretch beyond a
certain point. And yeah, like you're saying,
repeating between series one and series two,
there's a lot of things that are repeated or
echoed from the last 20 years or even further
back of Doctor Who. But even just like the season
structure, like the fact that you have a mystery,
that that is just being something that we expect
now. Yeah, and I'm a big fan of every season
having an arc or arcs that stretch across a few
seasons. I remember how sort of radical it felt
at the end of Series 5 when... You know, the
Earth, well, the universe had been undestroyed
and rebooted and, you know, the consequences
of the mystery had kind of been solved, but the
mystery itself hadn't. And then, you know, we
had all the stuff with the silence and that kind
of thing that followed. And it was nice to just
have that little sort of acknowledgement at the
end of Series 5, oh, there's still a few questions
to answer and that kind of thing. And then we've
got a similar thing here, but this. This feels
more ongoing, like the whole thing with the silence
in Series 6. I like Series 6 generally. I think
I'm one of the people that probably enjoyed it
more than others did, but it did feel a little
bit clunky going from that mystery setup at the
end of Series 5 to it sort of turning quite a
bit in Series 6 and going in various different
directions. Same. I thought Series 6 was like
a really, really... strong interesting like six
or seven episode mini series with like these
other random stories slotted in in between and
kind of in that transitional thing of like do
we make doctor who like an ongoing serial drama
like like all streaming shows are or do we stick
to the monster of the week thing and the x -files
had that a bit as well like you know years ago
like they had their very archy episodes and then
suddenly it was a bit of whiplash going back
to like your monster of the week stories and
with doctor who series six being just you know
much shorter uh yeah it took up time when and
especially when you had those big revelations
we're getting into a bit of a series six retrospective
now but especially when you have those big revelations
about you know amy and river you you want to
pick up on those like in the next episode and
run with them and it kind of knocks the momentum
out of it to just have like a traditional story
and it does that story a disservice as well because
it might be a good story but it's in the wrong
place um but yeah but i agree with you i liked
i liked a lot of series six like i liked what
it was trying to do yeah i mean you know maybe
maybe the shorter episode count now could actually
benefit this because like you say you know series
six could probably have been four or five episodes
shorter and actually been a really, really tight
little piece. But when you're watching through
series six, you get to sort of night... It's
not night thoughts, is it? That's Big Finish.
Another one you mean, the one with the peg doll?
Yeah, the Mark Gatiss one. Yeah. I can't believe
I've forgotten its name. Night Terrors? Night
Terrors. It could be Night Terrors. Whenever
you get to that one, it feels like you've just
hit a barrier. It really does feel like we've
been moving in directions. We've had the big
two -part opener. We've had the flesh two -parter
that went straight into A Good Man Goes to War,
which went near enough straight into Let's Kill
Hitler. And then it just feels like a big...
doesn't it? I mean, by looking to the future,
it sounds like Russell T Davies wants to stick
around from what he's saying. If Disney did renew,
it sounds like he'd carry on for at least another
few seasons. And I'd be interested to see what
he comes up with. But I also really want someone
new to come in because you look at the changes
in showrunners, those are the times when the
format has shifted a little bit. yeah you know
series five was a bit safer but it was moffat's
one of moffat's early seasons series six where
you had that experiment with the format of the
arc and the season and then um tribunal had some
like other approaches like i think like culminating
in flux which was i guess flux is what we're
saying series six could have been like six episodes
telling a much more concentrated story with more
momentum And then it feels like we've come back
full circle and we're now getting eight episode
compressed versions of Russell Davis's original
13 episode structure. So, so yeah, always excited
to see what he comes up with, but I would really
like a new fresh take on what Doctor Who could
be next. You see, I think what I'd like to see
is sort of a period of. I think one thing that
has sort of perhaps negatively affected the series
quite a bit is every so many years, the whole
thing just seems to pause while we change over
showrunner. Yeah. And it's not a hard reboot.
I mean, you know, in context of the series, it
is kind of a hard reboot. You know, it's actually
quite jarring going from, I don't know, Twice
Upon a Time to Woman Who Fell to Earth, for example.
And I wish we would actually have some kind of
crossover, you know, how kind of Barry Letts
and Tony Stick hung around for a bit of season
12 and, you know, Robert Holmes and Philip Hinchcliffe
were involved with 11. Like on screen, companions
would carry over to like bed in the new doctor
and have some continuity. That was a bit of a
tradition. Yeah, that would help as well. So
I'd quite like to see that. Let's say Russell
T Davies, I think he said in an interview in
the last week that his intention is to stick
around for four or five series. Well, could he
be sort of co -show running with the next person
for series four and five and then just give us
a sense of continuity, give us a sense that it's
the same series? Because sort of... bringing
down a hatchet and going it's a different thing
now every five years I think might actually have
been to the series detriment. We haven't had
War Between the Land and the Sea yet but I wonder
if spin -offs might be a part of that as well
because again at the start of the new series
we had Sarah Jane running and Torchwood and those
are a form of continuity as well because you
could have the spinoffs running alongside the
main show, and they don't necessarily need to
stop when the main showrunners take over. But,
yeah, anyway. And, you know, having a spinoff
is a pretty decent proving ground for the next
showrunner, absolutely. I mean, look at Chibnall.
Chibnall did a pretty good job on Torchwood,
actually, particularly the second series. I think
the first series was slightly chaotic production
-wise in terms of who was actually in charge
and was it a Russell T Davies series, was it
Chibnall who seemed to be brought in last minute
and all that kind of thing. Whereas the second
series, which was pretty much Chibnall all the
way, that was really good. It was pretty solid,
pretty coherent storyline. Just tone and everything.
It felt like it knew what sort of show it wanted
to be, whereas Tortured Series 1 was... had some
good bits but like when i was watching it at
the time i i remember just the whole time trying
to work out okay what what sort of tone are they
going for like what what sort of vibe is this
and then yeah series two just felt like much
more self -assured like you know this is what
talk should is yeah and it you know it had things
like that very sort of loose three -parter featuring
martha through the middle and you know the whole
owen being killed story and that kind of thing
And that was brilliant. It was really, really
good. So maybe just, yeah, some kind of moving
forward, some kind of showrunner crossover, handover
series or two, just so there's a smooth transition
and not like a hard, it's different now, knock
on the head, feels like you're restarting. I
suppose Russell T Davies has brought things through
from other eras. unit characters and that kind
of thing coming through from other eras so it's
not it's not entirely sort of locked off the
past whereas woman who fell to earth really did
feel like complete and total divorce from what
come before as did the 11th hour um and yeah
i think i'd rather have just sort of a more smooth
sense of things moving forward i guess showrunners
might This is just speculation, but I'm assuming
when a new showrunner comes in, they kind of
want to put their stamp on it and draw a bit
of a line and say, like, this is what my vision
of the show is. And then I think in both those
eras, they did start... Well, like, you know,
Kate comes back in later Chibnall episodes, and
so they do start bringing in more bits from...
previous series eras but yeah like that that
is one thing russell davis has done this time
like fully embraced the timeless child stuff
and i think actually built on that in like an
even more interesting way than we actually had
in in uh in the 13th doctors era so yeah he's
been like very open to embracing like the past
20 or further further well with sutek much further
back than 20 years as well Yeah, but I guess
Russell T Davies has got the confidence to do
that because it's something he did very, very,
very, very slowly throughout his first run. It
wasn't all dumped there in rows. We didn't get
a reference to Scarrow until the end of the second
series and Gallifrey came after that. He felt
like he was very cautious. He was worried about,
because I guess this is coming off the back of
the TV movie where in the first like 30 seconds
you get like a Wikipedia article about the Doctor
and the Master and the Daleks and that opening
narration. And I felt like I imagine that was
at the back of his mind when he's writing Rose
and thinking about those first couple of seasons
to not do that and to very consciously and carefully
introduce things in a way that makes sense to
new people. which there's definitely been a shift
in over 20 years of New Doctor Who now. Like
you say, we had Sutec in Series 1, which still
kind of strikes me as mad. We got a special edition
of Pyramids out of it, which is fantastic. So,
yeah, it's good that we are able to now go back
to stuff a little bit more. I guess. And if certain
rumours about Mrs. Flood are true, we're going
to be doing something similar to that again.
So I'll sort of hang a very tentative spoiler
warning before I start discussing this. But there's
rumours out there that she is somehow is or is
linked to or is bi -generated from or whatever
you want, the Rani. Now, okay, we've had 17 million
Rani rumours since 2005, but there's obviously
something... I don't know. This one feels like
it's a little bit more serious. This one doesn't
feel like it's as tongue -in -cheek as everything
else. I sort of hope, I really hope not, unless
it's for a couple of reasons. I just don't get,
maybe she's like fob watched and chameleon arched
or something, but I don't get that vibe at all
from Mrs. Flood. And maybe it's a thing of like,
sometimes Time Lords personalities do change
in incarnations. But, and also the other reason
is, again, we've got eight episodes and to tell
like a really sort of interesting story about.
Belinda and whatever's going on with her and
I just feel like it sort of takes a lot of air
time and space away if you introduce this big
classic series character from decades ago and
maybe they've sort of given up on like making
it that 2005 approach of just working for a fresh
audience but yeah like how well does it work
to have like Sutec and Durrani as your big big
villains like Amo gives the other rumour isn't
it that alongside the Rani same with him that
feels like something that Big Finish or possibly
the books should be doing and the TV series especially
if it's meant to be this fresh new era with a
big international audience should possibly be
doing something new I mean I'd have to debate
something you said there, actually, which is
the Rani's a big villain. The Rani is not a big
villain. You know, the Rani is not the Daleks,
the Master, Cybermen, even Sontar and that kind
of thing. The Rani popped up in two stories.
Dimensions and times, technically. Two stories
and a charity special in arguably the most obscure.
eras of the classic show um couple of big finishes
since and it's just sort of like the rani as
a character as a concept i suppose is quite interesting
sort of the ethics free ends justify the means
scientific it's like a different take on a villain
titled Yeah, like the Rani serves a purpose.
The Rani does something specific. I don't see
what the Rani would be doing knocking about in,
you know, this time where the Pantheon gods,
Sutex, Toymakers, whatever, are kind of creeping
into our universe. The Rani does not fit into
that. That's not the Rani's MO. Not at all. in
the finale to series one the way that mrs flood
is talking just before she's dusted is like she's
talking as though she is some power like on a
level with the gods or is a god herself um and
yeah the rani is very you know might be egotistical
or arrogant but doesn't feel like the kind of
thing that she would it doesn't feel like the
way that she would talk about herself she's a
scientist like how is she suddenly talking like
some sort of mythical superpower. Yeah. If you've
got a good sort of slightly mad scientist story
to tell, use the Rani. It makes perfect sense.
But if you are messing about with gods and superior
beings and all this kind of thing, no, doesn't
make any sense. I can see the Master kind of
having something to do with it. The Master's
gone after godlike creatures before, think like
the demons or the time monster, that kind of
thing. Yeah, that would make more sense. Yeah,
it's not around anything. I do hope that rumour
is absolute bobbins, but if it turns out to be
sort of anything at all, I hope it's done well
and I hope it's done for a reason and I hope
it's not. Here's the next. level of significant
villain that we can think of because we've brought
everything else back tune in for series three
where we're digging sill or you know yeah we've
had all the classic big bads now we haven't really
yeah we haven't really got any big classic series
villains worth bringing back i think what Russell
Tudavis talked about using the Toymaker in the
recent specials and how it wasn't originally
the Toymaker and then he was writing it and then
he thought, OK, well, this might as well be the
Toymaker because he's close enough to this threat
that I'm putting in this story. That makes complete
sense to me. It's like you were saying, if you've
got a story where it's a scientist character,
that might as well be the Rani. But it's like...
It's when it kind of feels a bit more out of
place or doesn't fit with the story in isolation.
And again, the comparison we made in the retrospective
was the reveal of Sutec feeling a bit out of
nowhere and a bit overblown if you're just watching
that series of TV. Whereas if you watch Series
3 and Utopia and the Masters reveal... There's
enough seeded in those episodes in that season
with the fob watch, with mentions of Gallifrey,
with all of that in that same series of TV that
you get the significance of that reveal when
the master opens the fob watch. And that's like
the big difference for me. Like it works in isolation
as a story and has an extra layer if you've watched
50 years of the show before it. They obviously
knew SUTEC was a bit of a bizarre reveal because
they went, by the way, if you don't know who
SUTEC is, we've got a 15 -year -old Doctor Who
story that we've stuck a bit of CGI on for you
airing on Thursday night. Give that a watch.
Which, you know, again, great. I think it's absolutely
great that we got that Tales from the TARDIS
and that they did film new stuff for it and we
do have this shiny. very actually tightly edited
um and well cgi version of pyramid to mars i'm
really happy that exists but it was kind of sort
of going to probably a good chunk of the audience
yeah we know you don't know what's going on but
have a look at this spend 20 minutes sorry spend
90 minutes looking at this and you'll you'll
you'll get it you'll figure out I like the idea
of the colourisations and the cut -downs and
Tales from the TARDIS and making the most of
the back catalogue, but just not at the expense
of telling a coherent story in the new current
flagship show. It's just dawned on me that in
seven weeks' time we could be talking about a
brand -new edited 75 -minute CGI'd -up version
of Time and the Rami. Oh, no. Don't do it. Dimensions
of Time would be the bigger story, wouldn't it,
given the rights issues with that. Oh, yeah.
That would be pretty exciting to have a lost
story returned to the archive. Just Russell T.
Davis going, well, I did say all of the back
catalogue. So Dimensions of Time returns to iPlayer
before an unearthly child. Yes. As it should
be. No, no, not as it should be. Anyway, yeah,
the whole Mrs. Flood thing is very interesting
and I genuinely can't believe that I've sort
of semi -seriously discussed the Rani on a podcast
that anybody can listen to as part of this thing
because it's just so damn ridiculous. It's going
to be some sort of reveal, but some sort of thing
that's meant to make us go, oh, it was them all
along. But I hope it's something like it's not
the Rani or Davros. I hope it's like... I think
the compromise is something like it's the Doctor's
mother or it's like someone of personal significance
to the Doctor's history and it tells, it furthers
the story about who the Doctor is and where they've
come from and these threads about the timeless
child that have been dropped in over the last
13 episodes. That could potentially work for
me. There's other sort of relatively obscure
villains that I'd rather it be. be like i mentioned
i think it was after um after the giggle i think
it was in the like the sort of episode we did
covering that i mentioned that if we're doing
gods and if we're doing you know the pantheon
and all that kind of thing let's do fenric like
fenric is an actual god that the seventh thought
to battle you know interesting character wasn't
You know, let's do something with that. And I
still think that that would be a very interesting,
you know, big finish brought about Fenric. And
it was the culmination of an absolutely fantastic
storyline and an absolutely fantastic storyline
that's not too different to the approach the
TV series is taking now. Yeah, I feel like Fenric
should be mentioned or pop up at some point if
they're doing a big arc about gods and monsters.
But Mrs. Flood. I don't even know if she feels
like she's going to be revealed as a straight
-up villain to me. It feels like she could be
some super powerful force that is for some reason
in opposition with the Doctor or in conflict
with the Doctor over something, but not an out
-and -out scenery -chewing villain. They both
want to stop the big bad butt. She's more ends
justify the means, that kind of thing. Yeah,
something like that. Yeah, I think that's how
I would like, at this point, I think that's how
it would like to turn out. But I think that there's
going to be something, there's going to be some
kind of twist or whatever that sort of we didn't
see coming. At the end. At the end. I was trying
to avoid saying that. Okay, well, let's switch
back to the robot revolution and let's talk about
the Doctor in the episode. We've talked quite
a bit about Belinda. We've not really talked
about the Doctor. Can't say I noticed any sort
of significant changes between the Doctor we've
seen before and the Doctor we've got here. And
I mention this because I have... often argued,
it's not always the case, but I've often argued
that a new Doctor's first series is their weakest
and we see some fairly significant level of performance
change between the first and second seasons.
I think this is the case with most Doctors. Whereas
this seemed to just be picking up where we were
before. We've still got a very emotional Doctor,
we've still got... you know, he's still quite
excitable. I quite like his enthusiasm around,
okay, Belinda, you're my new companion now, let's
go traveling. And she's like, no, not doing that.
And sort of in his enthusiasm, he has, he's sort
of crossed a couple of lines. He's crossed a
couple of boundaries. And I quite liked him getting
the telling off about the DNA test and that kind
of thing. So maybe, yeah, a slightly sort of
more alien. version of this Doctor, perhaps one
that crosses a line a little bit more, but it
was very similar. The performance was very much
the same, I think. Not that I'm complaining.
I really, really enjoyed Shooty's performance
of the Doctor, and I do think that he has more
or less got it right since day one. But yeah,
I felt as though the tears were earned this time.
I felt as though it actually worked with the
episode. you know the doctor had just lost like
i say someone who's hinted at being sort of a
pseudo companion for the six months leading up
to the events there it's pretty telegraphed it
was like very much like you know uh three days
away from retirement kind of moment when she
says like just before she dies when she talks
about going off with him in the tardis afterwards
yeah But the bit you mentioned where he gets
told off, that for me was the newest, most interesting
bit for the Doctor's character. And it kind of
built a bit on... Because I think we saw a very
different side to him in that moment in Joy to
the World when he's... It's almost that Curse
of Fenric moment when he's pushing Joy and deliberately
upsetting her and provoking emotions in her.
And then in this scene, in this episode where
Belinda challenges him or tells him off about
the DNA sample, on the surface he apologises,
but actually from both of them, I think there's
really, really interesting stuff going on under
the surface in both of their performances where
he's saying sorry, but there's something in his
eyes and just something about the body language
that tells me, oh, he's a bit... he's a bit thrown
or even a bit pissed off about about his his
charm not working on uh a young female companion
in the way that it normally does and i don't
know there's something between them that goes
beyond like you've done something wrong okay
i've apologized for it and like from her size
when he apologized i don't know if she i don't
think i don't think she's she completely trusts
it or trusts him And I'm really curious how they
get from this point of being a bit like this
point in their relationship to where they are
in Lux in the next episode, because from the
little clips we've seen, they seem really like
on good terms. Are we going to get another six
month time jump where they've been traveling
around the universe for six months? But anyway,
in terms of. The Doctor's character. I thought
that was really, really interesting. And it's
an interesting comparison with the main villain
of this episode because there's the whole incels
thing, which I think works for what it is, but
it's not the most subtle approach to that subject.
And the villain's performance, both in his pre
-robot and post -robot form, neither of those,
I think, are the most subtle. performances um
but then you have that yeah that was the most
interesting scene of the whole episode for me
that that moment at the end where there's it
is really interesting and layered like what's
going on between the doctor and his companion
and again so different from the typical template
from like rose or even further back where the
two of them instantly get on together and they
fly off and just straight away having adventures.
Yeah, I think it's good to have that sort of,
that level of doubt in a companion. And I do
hope that, you know, the Doctor does sort of
get challenged in a similar way as the series
goes on. You know, I hope this does become not
an overriding thing, but, you know, we've done
Is the Doctor a Good Man before to various levels
of effectiveness. We've had the Doctor travelling
with people that he's not necessarily wanted
to travel with. He took the Tenth Doctor a little
while to warm to Martha. But this is the first
time certainly New Who has kind of done a companion
that doesn't particularly want to be there. And
it's good. I'm glad we're exploring that. It
obviously all ties into part of the storyline
and that kind of thing. There's a reason he can't
get a home. which is a mystery that will no doubt
be solved as we go on. But it's also an opportunity,
and I kind of hope we take the opportunity. Like
I say, I hope it doesn't sort of dominate an
entire episode or something like that, but I
hope there is just that moment of the Doctor
being called out again, because it does certainly
seem that this Doctor is driven by... slightly
childish enthusiasm, an immature enthusiasm,
let's say. And that's the sort of flaw that's
built into the character and therefore what we
should be exploring. And the opportunity for
that is now clearly set up. Also the planet of
the incels thing, which I liked. I liked that
that's sort of where the episode came from and
where the villain came from. But I don't think
we needed the line. I think the Planet of the
Incels line was just a little bit too much. Like,
we'd all got it. Everyone watching it had completely
got it. And that line just felt a little bit
too sledgehammery, a little bit too unnatural.
It's a good idea. You know, it's a really good
idea. It's absolutely something that Doctor Who
should be exploring in 2025. But, yeah, I just
felt as though... there was a level of subtlety
that could have been used there that wasn't.
And it's kind of, we've used that subtlety or
will use that subtlety in the TARDIS five minutes
later. So can we not use that subtlety again
beforehand? I don't know. It's fairly on the
nose, but I feel like it's partly, well, there's
a couple of things like, you know, whatever the
distribution of the audience is these days. So
Doctor Who is in theory a show for like a very,
broad range of people so there might be that
element of yeah we we all got it but would you
know is there those you know to the young teenage
audience or like this is that group in between
where it does need to be spilled spelled out
a little bit more um maybe not you know maybe
they are more than capable of getting it without
it being spelled out but also i think it's it's
partly russell t davis's style he's he's really
really good with character and dialogue i think
but he does also have like quite an on -the -nose
style to like um even in his more serious dramas
you'll have like moments where things are kind
of just spelled out in in black and white in
that way but then you also have like sort of
interesting character work and stories going
on around it yeah and it's i guess so again you
know it's not something i can specifically aim
at this episode. It's something that happens
a lot and it's something that other writers do.
I just thought maybe, you know, there was room
for more clearly signposted subtext than the
actual, the line, as it were. But, you know,
it certainly didn't stop me from enjoying the
episode. And like I say, I thought it was a really
interesting direction to go and the kind of direction
Doctor Who should be going. um more significantly
which is you know what what the cast have said
is what russell t davis has said so everyone
seems to be on the same page at least um so we've
we've kind of we've kind of had a few things
left hanging obviously we've mentioned belinda
wanting to get home um and not being able to
but there was that sort of last shot as well
that kind of heavily implied that the Earth had
been destroyed because we've got an Eiffel Tower
and the Statue of Liberty floating next to each
other in space. What are the odds? So that's
kind of obviously what the big hook of this series
is going to be. By the end of Episode 8, we're
going to find out how the Earth didn't get destroyed
or how it didn't then got rebooted. We've done
this before. We've definitely done this before.
But it's, I don't know, is it a good setup? Is
it a good mystery? We've had the Earth gets destroyed
on this specific date before a few times, and
I'm just kind of thinking, is that where we're
going again? Is that indeed where we're going?
Because the name of the final episode is the
reality war, something like that. And you just
sort of think, well, is that what we're approaching?
Are we, the Doctor, slipped into another reality
here or all that kind of thing? Feels a bit MCU.
Let's get that one out of the way nice and quickly.
It feels like it's doing what the MCU's been
doing for the last few years. But Doctor Who's
going to be doing it in eight episodes. Even
down to the titles of the two final episodes.
Or is it Wish? What's the second last one? Called
Wish World. And then The Reality War. So, yeah,
when I heard those titles, that immediately made
me think of Battle World and Infinity War and
Secret Wars. So, yeah, it's even sort of aping
that Marvel style of what you call the stories.
But I think, like, even before... Was it... When
was it? I remember at some point before this
recent comeback, Russell Davis was talking about
the MCU and how that's what Doctor Who should
mimic in terms of different franchises and spin
-offs and having a whole universe. We've had
that branding for this last couple of years,
the Who -niverse, which seems very much about
that, about trying to move. Doctor Who towards
this big interconnected universe and there's
bits of that that I like but like yeah it should
also not just ape something else that is successful
like it should I think also just carry on doing
its own thing to an extent like the the Who universe
that we had with Doctor Who Sarah Jane and Torchwood
that for me was kind of the ideal level of franchise
-iness for Doctor Who where you've got like the
three different shows aimed at different demographics
and each each having a distinct tone um I don't
know if we want to go even you know even if like
budget and production weren't an issue I don't
think you want to go much further than that in
expanding out loads of other spin -off shows
and bits and pieces. And we have still got Big
Finish as well, which, you know, Big Finish has
kind of had that box ticked for a good 15 years
now. You know, it's been regularly producing
so many spin -offs per month. And that might
be why we're sort of less excited about Sutec
or the Rani on TV is because... We've seen pretty
much every other, you know, it's like every other
month there'll be some big 70s villain coming
back in a book set. But we've had Bilal come
back. You know, it's, it has, yeah, it feels
as though as a, sort of in quotation marks, this
is, I guess, as an old school Doctor Who fan,
I feel very, very... very well catered for and
have done for a very, very long time because
of not just Big Finish, you know, there's books
as well and there's comics and all that kind
of thing. And I haven't missed the Daleks on
TV at all because I've had so much of them on
audio that I haven't even noticed their absence
last year and this year so far. Yeah, I do hope
Shooter gets to meet them. I think it would be
a real shame. Just for the sake, yeah, for ticking
off the list. Every doctor should meet Daleks,
should meet Cybermen, should meet the Master,
arguably. And I know there's exceptions, but
that feels like three reasonable boxes to want
to have ticked off. But, you know, your mileage
may vary on that. There's definitely a sense
of Dalek fatigue, I think. Yeah, even just on
TV, and then if you take all of the audios into
account, there must be in the hundreds now of
stories, if you count each episode of Dalek Empire
and all of those. Yeah. Must be well over 100
Dalek stories. Oh, yeah, must be, easily. But
that's the nature of it. They're a fantastic
creation and they are a significant part of the
Who universe. But I'm quite happy for the TV
to spend a few years exploring other corners
and not necessarily just bumping into them again.
So, yeah, like I say, I hope Shooter gets to
meet them. I hope they do pop up at some point.
But I'm not sort of sat here going, oh, I really
want the Daleks back now. I'm really, really
not. But, you know, Russell T Davies has said
there's no Daleks this series, just like he did
with series two. So, yeah, which I think is probably
a good point to end on. So, yeah, Robot Revolution.
I thought it was great. I thought it was a really,
really strong intro. It's given us plenty to
talk about and speculate about. It's done a really
good job of sort of establishing Belinda. And
Belinda and the Doctor's dynamic as well, I think.
And I hope it does get picked up on. I hope it
is something that's explored further. I hope
that we don't get sidetracked with too many other
things that push out that story because I want
that to be the focus of these eight episodes
right till the end. Those two lead characters
and what's going on with them and anything that's
brought in as a surprise or a twist is fine.
as long as it furthers that main character -based
story rather than just being there for a shock
or a surprise. So that's my hope for this season.
Yeah, it's got to earn its place, I guess. But,
you know, I hope we're sat here in six weeks'
time before the finale speculating about things
that we're genuinely excited about. And, you
know, if there has been a twist, you know, if
there is some big... cliffhanger reveal at the
end of Wishworld I really do hope it's earned
I hope it's justified and I hope it's not just
the Rani was the next character on our tick list
of who should be brought back we'll see you never
know it could be that we're talking about how
well done it was that the Rani has been brought
back well the Rani is working with Omega in the
finale but it sounds like the big twist will
come at the From what I can work out, at the
end of episode six, and that will lead us into
the last two episodes. Because it was episodes,
I think, three and six that Russell T Davies
said, stay off social media or watch those ones
as soon as you can. Yeah. So, yeah, I feel like
something big is going to happen right at the
end of episode six. Yeah, just something that
throws us into the finale. Yeah. Which would
be good because I enjoyed last year's finale,
but it definitely, it spent a bit of time treading
ground, like just getting up to that cliffhanger
reveal. Let's get that out of the way early.
Yeah, because the second half was quite, the
second half in that destroyed universe was quite
compressed and yeah, it felt like we could have
had more space for that side of the story. Yeah,
definitely. Well, we will leave it there, but
Strong starts the series, and I'm looking forward
to see where it goes next, definitely. Okay,
well, thanks very much for joining me, Mansour.
That was The Robot Revolution, and here's to
seven more episodes over the next seven weeks.
Roll them on. We'll be back to spodcast about
all of them. So thank you for listening, and
goodbye now.