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You're listening to a podcast of Spurious Morality.

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And welcome to our third episode, looking back

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at the second RTD era. Last time we got up to

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73 yards, and we'll be picking up today with

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the second half of Season 1, and also the special

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Joy to the World. My name's Mansor, I'm joined

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again by Mark to run through these. Hello. Yeah,

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shall we jump straight in? Oh, and we'll also

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do a little bit of looking forward to season

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two at the end, if we get time. Right, so second

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half of season one starts off with Dot and Bubble.

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This was definitely one of my favourites of the

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season. Where did it rank for you? Very highly,

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yeah. I'd say this and 73 yards and boom are

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kind of the top -ranking ones for me. Well, and

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joy to the world when we get there. But, yeah,

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in terms of the overall main season, this is

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sort of in the kind of top three, really. Yeah,

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definitely. Same for me. it's like like a lot

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of Doctor Who you can see its roots in other

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things and I think Russell T Davies spoke quite

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explicitly about Black Mirror I'm trying to think

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back to my interviews and things that he did

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at the time but yeah you can see its connection

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to other stuff but also like you know just even

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down to the the monster designs and things there's

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a lot of like very Doctor Who feel to it so it

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feels like it's part of this world it doesn't

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just feel like a rip -off of like other stuff

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um and yeah i do think it was unfortunate that

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we had so many dr light episodes in such a short

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run when it was shooting at was first season

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but they made the best of this one i think we

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might have said before that the doctor and ruby

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might not have been uh the actors might not have

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been pulled in for as many filming days but they

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feel very present because they're always popping

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up on these on these screens during the episode

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um yeah what was it what do you think what is

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it about this that made it sort of further up

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the rankings for both of us i think it's it's

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the central conceit and how it's delivered i

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i I had a bit of an interesting sort of experience

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of this one because I had heard sometime ahead

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of the season starting, and this is something

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I occasionally, you know, I have no one to blame

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except myself on this front. But occasionally

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a spoiler will be put in front of me and I can't

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resist. And in this particular instance, it came

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via another podcast, which has a pretty good

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track record of, not a perfect track record,

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but a pretty good track record of being quite

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close to the grapevine and revealing things in

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advance. And so at my own risk, I listened to

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this thing and they said that this episode would

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feature... What I'd heard by this podcast was

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that the story would involve the doctor arriving

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back in a colony he'd originally been to as the

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second doctor. And they remembered him having

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saved them. He was a very celebrated character.

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And that he would end up in a situation where

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he was helping them out, but from a remote location

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where they couldn't see him. And he was sort

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of talking them through the crisis. And then

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what would happen at the end would be, he would

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be revealed to them as, you know, the now black

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presenting, well, the black doctor that he now

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is. And their racism would suddenly be revealed

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in this moment and they would become hostile

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to him. So you can see that that wasn't too far

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wide of the mark in terms of what was ultimately

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broadcast. Now, because I'd heard that. It meant

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that when it came to watching it, even when I

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saw the next time trailer for it, I could see

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the sea of white faces. And I thought that rumor,

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that inside information was correct. But it also

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meant that I never got to put myself to the test

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insofar as I don't know had I not heard at what

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point I would have noticed that it was an entirely

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white colony. It's an interesting one because

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they have some interesting, you know, you're

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so focused, I think, on the dynamics of the character

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and the tensions in the situation and the eccentricities

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of this sort of social media world that you're

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not necessarily thinking about who looks a certain

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way, apart from the fact that they're all wearing

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pastel colours or whatever it is. And, you know,

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so, yeah, I will never know what, At what point,

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if at all, I would have twigged what was going

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on there. There are some subtle tells all the

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way through, you know, things that Lindy says

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to and about the Doctor, which... Yeah, when

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you re -watch it. Yeah, when you re -watch it,

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you certainly spot them a lot more. You know,

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they jump out at you, whereas on first watch,

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they just hit you with a kind of a... They hit

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the ear slightly wrong, maybe, but you don't

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quite fully consciously process it, and it's

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quite clever in that respect. um you know some

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of the things she says for instance um uh you

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know how did you get in here or or um you know

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is is this something to do with you when stuff

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starts going wrong you know those kind of little

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comments and and stuff about oh i can't wait

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until you're disciplined afterwards and but that

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you know until until you really get to that moment

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of reveal um it's not very clear what that's

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all about other than just her being petulant

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you know because she could come across that way

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anyway she's quite a sort of bratty character

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really um anyway and some of it's quite uh subtle

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facial expressions as well like the first time

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he pops up and she dismisses or blocks or swipes

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him away there's this slight you know what you

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think is just a sort of petulant look of annoyance

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of like oh who's this person who's who's bothering

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me that you know who's made that cold call but

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then in hindsight that look of disgust takes

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on well yeah it comes across to me more as a

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look of disgust rather than annoyance when when

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she just does this like little sort of grimace

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as she's um swiping the doctor's screen away

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and yeah there's loads of little things like

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that and it gets less subtle as it goes on closer

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to the reveal but right at the end when they're

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talking about voodoo and all of that just before

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the twist but i think it's it it's one of those

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twists that doesn't because there's certain types

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of twist where on a re -watch it sort of saps

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the excitement out of it because it's like oh

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i i you know i know what's what's going to happen

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here but this is one of those examples where

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re -watching it is actually quite rewarding because

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you're picking up on these things and seeing

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it in a different way and almost watching a different

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episode with that with that knowledge of what's

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coming at the end Yeah, absolutely. Another thing

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about this one is, you know, that's a heck of

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a first day in the office for Nshudi, isn't it,

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to come in and his first scene be that one where

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it is that culminating scene where he fully processes

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what's going on and has that incredible reaction

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to it. It's very powerful. It's hugely uncomfortable.

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And it's... you know he he's he's amazing in

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that scene but it was a heck of an ask for him

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to come in on day one and just write this is

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what you're doing um yeah so that was a baptism

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of fire right there and i don't want to um sort

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of like just make sort of unfable comparisons

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to the chibnall era but i think the fact that

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you have a black doctor the fact that you're

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doing something with that and acknowledging it

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and and doing a story like this i know jody's

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era had bits of that like in the witch finders

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and other stories um like gender is mentioned

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but uh most of the time it's sort of it's sort

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of brushed off and and maybe that's right to

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like get on with telling a story but i would

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have liked a bit more of that in 13th doctor

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zero what does it mean to be a woman in history

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and what is that sometimes mean. And another

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interesting dimension to think about that, you

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know, adjacent to all of that is, say it had,

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you know, maybe it's in my mind more because

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I was originally set up to expect that, you know,

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they had this sort of historical memory of, you

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know, a white doctor, you know, like Patrick

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Troughton or somebody having come and saved the

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colony before. But if you think about it, like

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there could be any number of those sorts of colonies

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that we saw in particularly the 60s or whatever,

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the Macra Terror or something like that, where

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a white -faced doctor shows up to, you know,

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a pretty much white cast, you know, and then

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they happily resolve things. He's waved off with

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a cheery goodbye. And you might, one or two of

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those colonies may have shared, you know, these

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racist values. We just don't know. And the doctor

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would never have known. And it's unsettling to

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think, do you know what I mean? That the characters,

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maybe guest characters we grew to like or enjoy

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in that particular adventure could have held

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these sort of, you know, it could have been a

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widely spread belief amongst their people, but

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it just never came up in the story. And so this

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really puts that front and centre and sort of

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makes you think about that kind of... I mean,

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hopefully there aren't too many colonies like

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that in the far future because it's a bit dispiriting.

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But I guess it's one of those lessons of history

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that if you're not careful. Oh, and that's one

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thing because one of those things that RTD likes

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to do is to present you with a thing and say,

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look, I'm not saying that this is a negative.

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It's actually maybe a real positive for the future.

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Like, for instance, in this case, it's the two

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-hour working week. And that two -hour working

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week frees up so much. I think it's a logical.

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path of progression that society will eventually

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get to something like that because there'll be

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more and more technological assistance and things

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and so people will only work for less and less

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but less and less time in the future but the

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point I'm making I suppose is what he's saying

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is he's not inclined to be negative about these

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things like he wouldn't sort of wag his finger

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about people watching too much television he

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sees the virtue of the public discourse in television

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and things like that Here, the equivalent of

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that is to say, look, the two -hour working week

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is a potentially very positive thing, but it's

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a double -edged sword because as much as it frees

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up time for creativity and hobbies and all the

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rest of it and meaningful social engagement,

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it also maybe presents a time in which conspiracy

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theories and paranoia can fester and you need

00:12:56.870 --> 00:12:59.470
to be really careful about what you do. do with

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your time in this in this world of of you know

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potential almost full -time leisure do you know

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what i mean it's so it's like don't don't fill

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your time with um prejudice um i guess it's kind

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of one of those lessons for the future you know

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well ahead of that that envisaged future if you

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see what i mean yeah that's that's interesting

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about the two hour working day because i i didn't

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take it that way i took it more as because i

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felt you never get an impression that they're

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doing anything useful because i feel like if

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you were i feel like if you were doing like a

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story that's set in the future where they have

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like employment um law and practices advanced

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to the point where you can do a useful day's

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work in two hours um you'd be doing like two

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quite intense hours of high value work but it

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feels like these people are just like sat at

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desks doing busy work what's of ambiguous busy

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work for a couple of hours that's because they're

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on their their dot and bubble while they while

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they're doing that work as well aren't they so

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that's true yes i i never got the feeling that

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they were like going in and doing this you know

00:14:18.230 --> 00:14:21.529
sort of intensive uh high value two hours of

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work um but uh but yeah that's a good point about

00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:30.659
the downtime that it creates as well and so let's

00:14:30.659 --> 00:14:33.659
talk about before we move on i think we should

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talk about lindsey and pepper bean though like

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this the central character who with it being

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doctor and companion light who's our main focus

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for most of the episode um i think there's a

00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:48.799
lot of interesting stuff there with subverting

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this that sort of when it starts off you expect

00:14:53.490 --> 00:14:58.409
that trope of here's this person who's um you

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know being taken on this like heroic journey

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to move from someone who's quite passive and

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stuck and then starts to take on traits of the

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doctor and becomes more active and becomes a

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hero and then there's a complete subversion or

00:15:15.309 --> 00:15:18.570
rug pull around that uh well i guess it's with

00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:21.419
rookie september isn't it but that's is that

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the moment or is that's a turning point yeah

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i mean um that that's the moment when he's first

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introduced he's sort of i think you're absolutely

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right it sort of leans in momentarily into that

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trope of oh he's going to open her eyes to these

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other possibilities of see the world and all

00:15:39.379 --> 00:15:43.620
that doctor basically yeah and of course we don't

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know how far his individualism extended in the

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end. Was he the only non -racist on the planet?

00:15:49.509 --> 00:15:54.009
And probably not, actually. He was probably just,

00:15:54.070 --> 00:15:55.850
in that respect, as bad as the rest of them,

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but just a bit more of an individualist in terms

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of what he did with his time. But, yeah, I actually

00:16:04.549 --> 00:16:06.929
have to be careful how I put this, because obviously

00:16:06.929 --> 00:16:09.490
her views turn out to be reprehensible, like

00:16:09.490 --> 00:16:12.350
the rest of them, and she becomes very unlikable

00:16:12.350 --> 00:16:16.289
for that reason. But I did think, okay, as far

00:16:16.289 --> 00:16:18.049
as I can, this was in the early stages of the

00:16:18.049 --> 00:16:20.090
episode, as far as, you know, even though I could

00:16:20.090 --> 00:16:25.370
see she was petulant and kind of snappy and all

00:16:25.370 --> 00:16:28.850
these things, there was nevertheless something

00:16:28.850 --> 00:16:33.149
likeably kind of quirky about her. And I just,

00:16:33.190 --> 00:16:36.309
I kind of hoped for her that she would go on

00:16:36.309 --> 00:16:40.750
that journey you're talking about. And I do wonder,

00:16:40.909 --> 00:16:43.610
there's... I'm thinking back, for instance, to

00:16:43.610 --> 00:16:46.409
a character like Novice Haim, who, you know,

00:16:46.409 --> 00:16:48.490
comes back having been on a sort of an unseen

00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:50.409
redemptive arc in the meantime when the Doctor

00:16:50.409 --> 00:16:53.110
reconnects and a previous villain has become

00:16:53.110 --> 00:16:56.850
somebody reformed or, you know, considerably

00:16:56.850 --> 00:16:59.389
more matured in terms of how they see the world

00:16:59.389 --> 00:17:02.309
and how much they want to help. And I wonder,

00:17:02.330 --> 00:17:05.309
is there a potential redemptive path and even

00:17:05.309 --> 00:17:07.690
a possible return on the cards for somebody like

00:17:07.690 --> 00:17:11.220
Mindy? Now, she does have, you know, when they

00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:13.000
part company at the end there and she gives him

00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:17.200
that very cold, just narcissistically cool stare

00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:20.259
from the boat and they make eye contact. There

00:17:20.259 --> 00:17:23.799
doesn't seem to be any prospect of that. I was

00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:25.660
wondering about that this time, actually, because,

00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:28.900
again, I might be imagining it, but I was imagining

00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:32.339
just in her expression, just a little bit of

00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:36.650
regret, a little bit of doubt. the way she's

00:17:36.650 --> 00:17:39.250
looking back like obviously on the surface there's

00:17:39.250 --> 00:17:43.009
disdain and disgust but the way that like why

00:17:43.009 --> 00:17:47.750
doesn't he just if if she was so like steeped

00:17:47.750 --> 00:17:51.269
in those racist attitudes that she had like zero

00:17:51.269 --> 00:17:55.029
regard for the doctor would she have said thank

00:17:55.029 --> 00:17:57.650
you like and would she have held his gaze wouldn't

00:17:57.650 --> 00:18:00.369
she have just like turned away and just sort

00:18:00.369 --> 00:18:02.769
of talking to her friends about where they were

00:18:02.769 --> 00:18:05.759
going Yeah, I guess there is a sort of a bit

00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:08.220
of an ambiguity to some of that, but it does.

00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.799
I mean, oddly enough, I had the reverse this

00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.799
time. Having seen a bit more of what you're talking

00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:14.500
about first timeline, I think I looked at it

00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:16.900
this time and thought it was it just felt a bit

00:18:16.900 --> 00:18:20.220
harder. You know, it just felt a bit. Yeah, a

00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:23.569
bit. leaning towards the possibility of redemption

00:18:23.569 --> 00:18:26.190
and it was just it was almost a look of just

00:18:26.190 --> 00:18:31.230
narcissistic defiance and that conceding of the

00:18:31.230 --> 00:18:33.089
thank you was nearly a point of social etiquette

00:18:33.089 --> 00:18:34.990
in the same way as you know back in the day somebody

00:18:34.990 --> 00:18:38.029
might have talked to the household help with

00:18:38.029 --> 00:18:41.369
a sort of surface thank you but absolutely still

00:18:41.369 --> 00:18:46.089
this sort of two tier thank you because she's

00:18:46.089 --> 00:18:49.069
intelligent enough to be aware that he has probably

00:18:49.069 --> 00:18:53.380
helped save her life and it's like only with

00:18:53.380 --> 00:18:56.259
that sort of extraordinary circumstance that

00:18:56.259 --> 00:18:59.099
she can bring herself to talk to him face to

00:18:59.099 --> 00:19:02.880
face yeah it's very much a I suppose I'd better

00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.079
thank you kind of thing you know rather than

00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:09.079
a that's as close as she can get but then of

00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:12.279
course she is being witnessed by her peers there

00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:16.099
and so possibly it's an interesting one just

00:19:16.099 --> 00:19:18.319
one thing while it's in my head before we move

00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:21.720
on because it could be easily overlooked, a small

00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:25.240
production thing here. The set design I thought

00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:28.640
was clever because the way they've done it, they

00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:31.039
have these sort of like very quite relatively

00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:36.640
nondescript like walls and things. So as she's

00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.539
walking around, as she's being guided around

00:19:38.539 --> 00:19:41.619
and trying to walk unaided for the first time

00:19:41.619 --> 00:19:48.250
without the aid of the bubble. you see these

00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:50.869
walls and it's like just literally like a two

00:19:50.869 --> 00:19:52.750
-tone thing, beige at the bottom or whatever,

00:19:52.890 --> 00:19:55.349
and a primary color like a blue or a green or

00:19:55.349 --> 00:19:57.609
something at the top. And it's really there just,

00:19:57.670 --> 00:20:02.009
it's all just about something to impinge upon

00:20:02.009 --> 00:20:04.289
your peripheral awareness and say, you know,

00:20:04.329 --> 00:20:07.029
okay, if the wall's orange, I'm on level two

00:20:07.029 --> 00:20:08.109
or whatever, you know what I mean? You don't

00:20:08.109 --> 00:20:09.769
have to think about it, but there's certainly

00:20:09.769 --> 00:20:12.269
no, you know, there's nothing more finessed than

00:20:12.269 --> 00:20:14.289
that. There would be no wall art or anything.

00:20:14.609 --> 00:20:17.390
You know, it's not a world. that needs that because

00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:19.470
it's just purely about these people that live

00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:24.009
inside the bubble 97 of the time and um no one's

00:20:24.009 --> 00:20:26.849
going to see yeah sculptures or so i like that

00:20:26.849 --> 00:20:29.609
i like that thing which i only really took on

00:20:29.609 --> 00:20:32.869
board this time watching it you know little um

00:20:32.869 --> 00:20:36.049
set choices and things really lean into that

00:20:36.049 --> 00:20:42.269
whole world anyway yeah we probably say lots

00:20:42.269 --> 00:20:44.759
more about that episode but let's let's move

00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:51.200
on to to rogue and this is one that i would say

00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:56.720
was an episode i enjoyed like i placed it well

00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:02.920
above space babies in terms of rankings um it

00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:06.039
was great to see in general farmer like i said

00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:12.400
as a villain um and uh and it was cool to see

00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:15.839
the Doctor having a romantic relationship that's

00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:20.259
not a heterosexual one and that just being played

00:21:20.259 --> 00:21:24.299
in the same way as it was in Girl in the Fireplace

00:21:24.299 --> 00:21:33.380
and just not made a big thing of. Beyond that

00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:34.839
though, and I was really surprised with this

00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.380
one because this one had a guest writer I think,

00:21:37.539 --> 00:21:41.890
but maybe out of... Well, maybe this and Space

00:21:41.890 --> 00:21:46.190
Babies, maybe the finale as well. These were

00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:49.210
the episodes that felt the most like a bit of

00:21:49.210 --> 00:21:52.890
a rerun of what we'd had before. And that surprised

00:21:52.890 --> 00:21:54.650
me with this one in particular, having a guest

00:21:54.650 --> 00:21:58.630
writer, that this felt like a lot of the stuff

00:21:58.630 --> 00:22:04.309
we'd seen before in the first RTD era. So my

00:22:04.309 --> 00:22:09.880
feeling was, decent episode, not a bad one. but

00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:12.680
it's never going to be at the top of my list.

00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:16.380
There's nothing that makes it really extraordinary

00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:22.420
or stand out for me. It's just very solid. What

00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:30.359
were your impressions of this one? Similar. It's

00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.279
one of those things where, yeah, in terms of,

00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:40.849
there's some clever stuff going on in it. I think

00:22:40.849 --> 00:22:43.130
it might have been a 7 out of 10 -ish type of

00:22:43.130 --> 00:22:45.710
episode for me, were it not for the fact that

00:22:45.710 --> 00:22:50.269
that kind of charismatic pairing up of the Doctor

00:22:50.269 --> 00:22:54.630
and Rogue really pulls the spotlight. It's so

00:22:54.630 --> 00:23:00.109
well done. There's just this real... It's interesting

00:23:00.109 --> 00:23:02.029
because I've heard one or two other podcasts

00:23:02.029 --> 00:23:03.750
suggest there was no chemistry between them,

00:23:03.809 --> 00:23:06.539
and I'm thinking... Are you blind? Because it's

00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:10.220
there in spades as far as I can see. But yeah,

00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:13.859
you know, that moment where they dance and the

00:23:13.859 --> 00:23:16.819
lights come down and everything, that's actually

00:23:16.819 --> 00:23:20.059
in some ways, it's one of the episodes that most

00:23:20.059 --> 00:23:25.339
subtly, because it's sort of doing so much and

00:23:25.339 --> 00:23:27.539
you're sort of steeped in this world of Bridgerton

00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:31.769
and everything, you can almost... was i thinking

00:23:31.769 --> 00:23:33.990
about it failed to notice that here again are

00:23:33.990 --> 00:23:36.289
these sort of like meta i mean obviously bridgeton

00:23:36.289 --> 00:23:38.589
is a very meta thing to throw in there and the

00:23:38.589 --> 00:23:40.890
cosplay idea and everything cosplaying history

00:23:40.890 --> 00:23:44.410
but like the fact that you know you're watching

00:23:44.410 --> 00:23:47.390
something that's either metaphor or actuality

00:23:47.390 --> 00:23:49.170
in terms of the lights coming right down and

00:23:49.170 --> 00:23:50.750
those two being in the center of the dance floor

00:23:50.750 --> 00:23:54.450
and if we are you know and i know we'll talk

00:23:54.450 --> 00:23:57.309
about it i'm sure towards the end again if there's

00:23:57.309 --> 00:23:59.210
still a possibility that the meta thing could

00:23:59.210 --> 00:24:03.190
be could be in the mix there's something quite

00:24:03.190 --> 00:24:07.190
quite interesting um i think just there's some

00:24:07.190 --> 00:24:09.950
beautiful visuals in this i think i think um

00:24:09.950 --> 00:24:13.049
all that stuff you know where they shoot outside

00:24:13.049 --> 00:24:15.589
in the moonlight and and the little tardis park

00:24:15.589 --> 00:24:18.849
next to the the the big tree and you've got the

00:24:18.849 --> 00:24:21.829
giant spaceship i love just just in terms of

00:24:21.829 --> 00:24:25.869
a sort of a mood i really like it i'm i was a

00:24:25.869 --> 00:24:28.970
bit less enamored of the um the children themselves

00:24:28.970 --> 00:24:33.390
in terms of just like, I don't know, it's quite

00:24:33.390 --> 00:24:38.410
broad, isn't it? But then it's, it's fun too.

00:24:38.549 --> 00:24:42.150
So, you know, it's, and then the business at

00:24:42.150 --> 00:24:45.930
the end with the, the triforce. Oh, this is,

00:24:45.990 --> 00:24:48.450
of course, this, this, this has to be mentioned

00:24:48.450 --> 00:24:50.009
when the, when the triforce was first introduced

00:24:50.009 --> 00:24:52.490
and the doctor is trying to get out of that situation

00:24:52.490 --> 00:24:55.849
after he's been dancing to Kylie Minogue and

00:24:55.849 --> 00:24:58.549
all the rest of it. We have the iconic Richard

00:24:58.549 --> 00:25:03.210
E. Grant appear and, you know, that was an interesting

00:25:03.210 --> 00:25:05.470
moment. That was one of the most notable bits

00:25:05.470 --> 00:25:09.809
for me. Yeah. So it's either just playfulness

00:25:09.809 --> 00:25:12.309
or, again, they're suggesting something of the,

00:25:12.450 --> 00:25:15.849
you know, the expanded universe, the Doctor Who

00:25:15.849 --> 00:25:19.170
multiverse or something. It could be just...

00:25:19.289 --> 00:25:21.089
toying with the fans a little bit. It could just

00:25:21.089 --> 00:25:23.869
be having a bit of fun or feeding things in.

00:25:24.329 --> 00:25:26.170
Yeah, I think this was just a musical choice,

00:25:26.269 --> 00:25:28.589
but another thing you could add to that meta

00:25:28.589 --> 00:25:31.670
list is that thing about using modern songs,

00:25:31.869 --> 00:25:36.009
but doing them in a period style, like some of

00:25:36.009 --> 00:25:41.109
the music during the dance scenes. I can't remember

00:25:41.109 --> 00:25:43.390
which songs it were, but... Yeah, we had Lady

00:25:43.390 --> 00:25:47.119
Gaga towards the end, didn't we? and correct

00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:49.200
me if I'm wrong because I'm not an expert but

00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:51.339
Bridgerton itself does that doesn't it it takes

00:25:51.339 --> 00:25:56.339
it's probably a reference to that yeah yeah yeah

00:25:56.339 --> 00:26:00.180
but I agree about Rogue and the chemistry I could

00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:03.460
easily you know I'm not it's another question

00:26:03.460 --> 00:26:05.059
about whether the actor would be available but

00:26:05.059 --> 00:26:07.519
I could easily see the character Rogue being

00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.690
this semi -regular river type character over

00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:14.670
the next few years coming back. Because it felt

00:26:14.670 --> 00:26:17.230
to me like it was, you know, he disappears at

00:26:17.230 --> 00:26:19.589
the end, but it felt like it was almost being

00:26:19.589 --> 00:26:22.849
set up for a return or the possibility of a return.

00:26:23.069 --> 00:26:26.269
Yeah, like the new Captain Jack almost. It didn't

00:26:26.269 --> 00:26:28.069
feel, yeah, there was a lot of Captain Jack in

00:26:28.069 --> 00:26:31.109
him as well, but yeah, kind of mixed between

00:26:31.109 --> 00:26:35.890
Jack and River possibly. Obviously, it's not

00:26:35.890 --> 00:26:38.309
a historical figure, but it didn't feel as final

00:26:38.309 --> 00:26:42.029
and tragic as Girl in the Fireplace, where this

00:26:42.029 --> 00:26:45.730
is a finite thing and the tragedy is that she's

00:26:45.730 --> 00:26:48.509
died and she's gone. This felt just more like

00:26:48.509 --> 00:26:51.670
they've been separated, possibly temporarily.

00:26:52.910 --> 00:26:56.109
Yeah, he throws out that... find me challenge

00:26:56.109 --> 00:26:57.950
to him at the end and even though the doctor

00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:00.190
does say look you know there are there are many

00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:02.609
there are as many parallel dimensions as grains

00:27:02.609 --> 00:27:05.549
of sand in the universe sort of thing um you

00:27:05.549 --> 00:27:09.930
know that yeah if the writers want if the writers

00:27:09.930 --> 00:27:12.950
have seen the potential for more there and they

00:27:12.950 --> 00:27:16.390
will have done um that is on the cards you know

00:27:16.390 --> 00:27:19.049
jumping ahead to season two but like our final

00:27:19.049 --> 00:27:21.609
finale for season two is called the reality war

00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:25.599
so Ah, well, there you go. So that somebody could

00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:27.740
step through in the right circumstances. That's

00:27:27.740 --> 00:27:34.019
right. Yeah, so I thought it was, it's just one

00:27:34.019 --> 00:27:36.079
of those ones you can really steep yourself into

00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:41.099
the atmosphere of. And it kind of hits the doctor

00:27:41.099 --> 00:27:44.059
quite emotionally hard at the end. You know,

00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:48.910
he is affected by it. in a way you know it's

00:27:48.910 --> 00:27:50.869
good that ruby makes him stop at the end and

00:27:50.869 --> 00:27:52.809
have that hug because he's he's ready to rattle

00:27:52.809 --> 00:27:55.769
on to the next thing which is him almost reverting

00:27:55.769 --> 00:27:58.650
back to old habits and forgetting about you know

00:27:58.650 --> 00:28:00.349
being the post therapy doctor there for a minute

00:28:00.349 --> 00:28:04.529
she has to pull him back into that uh um that

00:28:04.529 --> 00:28:08.730
mode his his more um his more sort of self -aware

00:28:08.730 --> 00:28:11.509
motive i think that's that's that's an interesting

00:28:11.509 --> 00:28:14.250
thing actually like maybe like with this whole

00:28:14.250 --> 00:28:17.460
retrospective that we've done We went into this

00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:19.980
era with that notion of this is the doctor who's

00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:21.700
gone through therapy. That's why he's in touch

00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:26.019
with his emotions. It's not entirely consistent.

00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:29.220
There are moments where there's a lot of that

00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:34.019
old sort of repression or difficulty of dealing

00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:36.940
with emotions that is still there. He's not a

00:28:36.940 --> 00:28:42.700
completely different character. Maybe this is

00:28:42.700 --> 00:28:45.910
one of those moments that shows that. He does

00:28:45.910 --> 00:28:47.549
sometimes react in the way that he would have

00:28:47.549 --> 00:28:55.789
done in previous incarnations. But yeah, so I

00:28:55.789 --> 00:28:58.809
was just bringing up the season two titles, but

00:28:58.809 --> 00:29:01.490
maybe we can come on to those once we've gotten

00:29:01.490 --> 00:29:04.670
through the remaining episodes. But shall we

00:29:04.670 --> 00:29:08.069
move on to our two -part finale for this season?

00:29:08.210 --> 00:29:11.940
Yes, let's do that. Now, I didn't have time to

00:29:11.940 --> 00:29:14.400
rewatch both of these, but I rewatched Empire

00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:19.279
of Death. And just like a little structural thing

00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:22.119
that I felt at the time, I think, is it almost

00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.599
feels like the episode break comes 15 minutes

00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:28.960
into Empire of Death, because that's the big

00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:33.339
time jump when, you know, time's moved on and

00:29:33.339 --> 00:29:36.559
we pick things up again. And that felt very much

00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:41.140
like the space between... um like a more fat

00:29:41.140 --> 00:29:45.500
two -parter where you'd have like a big universe

00:29:45.500 --> 00:29:48.599
changing thing in the penultimate episode jump

00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:50.400
a few months forward and then pick up in the

00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:54.440
finale so this i felt like this maybe it was

00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:56.000
just to do with running time so the structure

00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.200
of this two -parter was a bit a bit off for me

00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:06.140
um and i'll very very briefly sort of mention

00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:09.420
sort of my feelings because i think they're quite

00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:12.220
common ones and then i'll hand over to you because

00:30:12.220 --> 00:30:15.140
i think you you felt more positively than than

00:30:15.140 --> 00:30:19.380
some about about these episodes but there was

00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:22.000
lots to like um there were some really lovely

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:25.279
moments with like mel in the memory tardis just

00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:29.279
having mel as a companion for these two episodes

00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:34.960
um it looked really good in places there were

00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:40.299
some really exciting action sequences uh and

00:30:40.299 --> 00:30:44.180
there were some interesting ideas about you know

00:30:44.180 --> 00:30:47.660
ruby's mother is significant because we thought

00:30:47.660 --> 00:30:50.299
she was significant again tying to that meta

00:30:50.299 --> 00:30:53.039
thing of it's almost us as the audience watching

00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.839
doctor who and assuming that ruby's mum is special

00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:00.680
which makes her special um that was an interesting

00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:04.839
idea i wasn't super sold on the execution and

00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:08.440
it's it's it's just like it's things like when

00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:12.220
i watched um uh you know church on ruby road

00:31:12.220 --> 00:31:17.440
and uh and you see that hooded figure in retrospect

00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:20.460
that falls a bit flat for me because it's oh

00:31:20.460 --> 00:31:23.920
it's just it's just a mom and she's pointing

00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.700
menacingly towards a a street sign for some reason

00:31:27.700 --> 00:31:30.380
rather than just like leaving a note saying this

00:31:30.380 --> 00:31:36.440
is ruby um But yeah, so that's my feeling. And

00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:41.099
I think this retrospective has been really good

00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:43.380
for reminding me of how much good stuff there

00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:46.000
was in this season. I think because I was a bit

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:51.799
down on this ending that had this effect of slightly

00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:55.519
souring me on the whole season and leaving me

00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:59.059
with an impression that was worse than it deserved.

00:32:01.399 --> 00:32:04.299
Yeah, so basically this didn't work for me as

00:32:04.299 --> 00:32:07.700
well as it could have done. I think a lot of

00:32:07.700 --> 00:32:12.839
other people felt similar. But I'll hand over

00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:16.160
to you, Mark, because I think you found more

00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:20.440
to enjoy in this one. Yeah, I went on a bit of

00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.839
a strange journey with this one because I understand

00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:25.400
something of what you're talking about there

00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:29.269
because... I had been going on this, to me, the

00:32:29.269 --> 00:32:32.009
season went on this very strong run, certainly

00:32:32.009 --> 00:32:37.130
from episode two through to right up until and

00:32:37.130 --> 00:32:40.470
including Rogue. And then I was all ready for,

00:32:40.589 --> 00:32:44.170
and I understand that I'm, you know, partly to

00:32:44.170 --> 00:32:46.049
blame for this because I brought my package of

00:32:46.049 --> 00:32:49.109
expectations to what the finale would and should

00:32:49.109 --> 00:32:52.029
even be, you know, in terms of all this meta

00:32:52.029 --> 00:32:55.509
theorizing that had crept into the mix. And then,

00:32:55.509 --> 00:33:02.410
you know. The Legend of Ruby Sunday initially

00:33:02.410 --> 00:33:06.950
disappointed the heck out of me because I watched

00:33:06.950 --> 00:33:12.390
it and I thought, oh no. Like, certainly when

00:33:12.390 --> 00:33:14.230
that ending arrived, I thought, surely it's not

00:33:14.230 --> 00:33:16.430
just bringing back an old villain. Is it just

00:33:16.430 --> 00:33:17.829
bringing back an old villain? And then it was

00:33:17.829 --> 00:33:22.130
exactly that. And it was, it felt, you know,

00:33:22.130 --> 00:33:25.980
that moment of reveal falls. fell and actually

00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:29.279
still largely falls totally flat for me for two

00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:32.220
reasons right one i think the way it's executed

00:33:32.220 --> 00:33:35.039
is very overdone now not the build -up through

00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:37.079
the episode itself which is actually pretty strong

00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:41.559
um but the moment of of its reveal do you remember

00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:43.839
how in aliens of london they had that first sort

00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:47.500
of cliffhanger around the slitheen yeah and because

00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:49.740
they hadn't done cliffhangers for years it felt

00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:53.599
a bit too spun out it lost its own momentum it

00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:55.900
wasn't concise enough and it didn't, and because

00:33:55.900 --> 00:33:58.059
of that, it just sort of over toppled a bit.

00:33:58.839 --> 00:34:01.400
This felt like that to me. And I thought, oh,

00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:03.859
even with all those intervening years, it's still,

00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:07.380
they've done that again, you know, su -text,

00:34:07.579 --> 00:34:09.960
you know, if it had been like at the end of Fenric,

00:34:09.980 --> 00:34:12.940
you know, at Fenric part three or whatever, where

00:34:12.940 --> 00:34:15.400
it's like, we play the contest again time, you

00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:17.119
know, that kind of really concise punchy moment

00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:19.780
and you go flip a neck, but it was this, you

00:34:19.780 --> 00:34:22.880
know, Don't get me wrong, the Harriet Arbinger

00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.039
stuff and all, great. The sort of talking, the

00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:28.260
kind of her talking and that kind of mantra and

00:34:28.260 --> 00:34:31.159
everything. And then even the anagram thing.

00:34:31.300 --> 00:34:34.579
But then Susan Twist stands there for ages talking

00:34:34.579 --> 00:34:37.420
and talking and talking and everybody is wide

00:34:37.420 --> 00:34:39.639
eyed. And I don't know, it felt really stretched.

00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:43.360
It's even more than Utopia levels of hype. And

00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:46.559
I think Utopia works so well because it's built

00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:50.119
up just enough in the season. Derek Jacoby is

00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:54.760
so good. Yeah. The master has so much personal

00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:57.659
significance to the doctor who thinks that he's

00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:00.579
the last survivor of a genocide that he committed.

00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:05.800
All of that makes it so impactful. And then,

00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:10.079
and this one, yeah, Sutec's a well -regarded

00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:13.179
villain, but it's a long time ago. He's not really,

00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:18.039
he's not really like, however much you retrospectively.

00:35:18.460 --> 00:35:20.659
talk him up. He doesn't really feel like a recurring

00:35:20.659 --> 00:35:23.639
nemesis of the Doctor. It's like one TV story

00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:28.760
and a few bits of spin -off media. Yeah, and

00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:30.719
then the other thing, by the way, I realise I'm

00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:32.519
sounding quite negative here, but I am going

00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:38.900
to spin this around in a minute. The other thing,

00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:41.679
the second... dimension to that that really disappointed

00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:44.480
me was well just the fact that it was Sutec you

00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:47.159
know it's just like to me now I have to admit

00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:51.519
and I know that I'm unusual in this as a fan

00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.820
right one of my least favorite stories is Pyramids

00:35:54.820 --> 00:35:57.840
of Mars I don't know why it just it's just not

00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.239
it just doesn't hit me the same way like I think

00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:03.079
in some ways it's so like this is what Doctor

00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:05.019
Who should be to a certain generation of fans

00:36:05.019 --> 00:36:07.840
that it just it almost repels me with it's sort

00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:13.139
of like you know or totemic nature or something.

00:36:13.219 --> 00:36:14.840
You know, it's just like, okay. And then you've

00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:18.079
got Sutec who, don't get me wrong, like Gabriel

00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:20.559
Wolfe has an amazing voice and he invests that

00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:26.980
character with so much surface sort of, I don't

00:36:26.980 --> 00:36:28.940
know what the word would be. Like he really draws

00:36:28.940 --> 00:36:32.420
you in with that voice and he's scary, but there

00:36:32.420 --> 00:36:35.780
isn't really much to Sutec. He's this godlike

00:36:35.780 --> 00:36:37.840
being. And by the time we reached the end of

00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:44.269
this season. He's somebody that's sort of built

00:36:44.269 --> 00:36:47.650
himself up to a point where he's close to omnipotence

00:36:47.650 --> 00:36:51.510
and he has a sort of obsession with acquiring

00:36:51.510 --> 00:36:53.650
total omnipotence, which is why Ruby's mother

00:36:53.650 --> 00:36:56.150
is the one missing link of the chain for him.

00:36:56.550 --> 00:37:00.349
But I don't know, just at that moment, I was

00:37:00.349 --> 00:37:03.449
so hugely disappointed that it was just like,

00:37:03.489 --> 00:37:06.630
oh, we've put a Sutec in it, you know, that...

00:37:08.170 --> 00:37:10.949
It just left me really disappointed that week.

00:37:12.190 --> 00:37:18.070
Then Empire of Death came along, right? And totally

00:37:18.070 --> 00:37:22.010
redeemed it for me. Again, I know I'm unusual

00:37:22.010 --> 00:37:23.710
in this regard because most people out there

00:37:23.710 --> 00:37:27.570
seem to be saying, oh, the first part was the

00:37:27.570 --> 00:37:30.170
one that worked amazingly well and it was the

00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:32.630
second one that let everything down. I personally

00:37:32.630 --> 00:37:35.190
feel it's the opposite. I think what Russell

00:37:35.190 --> 00:37:38.030
T Davies did... was intentionally bring back

00:37:38.030 --> 00:37:42.849
a villain that he knew a certain proportion of

00:37:42.849 --> 00:37:45.849
the fandom would love to see again right and

00:37:45.849 --> 00:37:48.550
he he says well look okay i've given you i've

00:37:48.550 --> 00:37:50.409
done the ian levine thing now right i've done

00:37:50.409 --> 00:37:52.929
it on purpose and i've given you this now be

00:37:52.929 --> 00:37:55.230
careful what you wish for because he's actually

00:37:55.230 --> 00:37:58.389
a great big god of nothing right and and then

00:37:58.389 --> 00:38:00.809
overtly says so and then dispatches him in a

00:38:00.809 --> 00:38:03.849
manner which you know had a lot of fans wailing

00:38:03.849 --> 00:38:06.559
and gnashing their teeth But I think actually

00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:08.679
it was brilliant because what he's saying is,

00:38:08.820 --> 00:38:11.800
okay, there he is. He's a device. He's brought

00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:14.039
about this catastrophic end of the universe thing.

00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:21.960
Now what is he? He's just a big dog with a scary

00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:25.079
voice. What do we do? How do we bring this back

00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:27.760
to the soul of what Doctor Who is? And the way

00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:32.039
you do that is you say, it's kind of in the way

00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:34.289
that the Daleks were sort of. summarily dismissed

00:38:34.289 --> 00:38:37.150
by Rose at the end of The Parting of the Ways.

00:38:38.389 --> 00:38:41.670
You say, right, you are a great big god of nothing

00:38:41.670 --> 00:38:44.269
and all that's really important here is the foregrounding

00:38:44.269 --> 00:38:46.469
of the emotional journey of our main characters.

00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:50.710
And there's a moment, there are some beautiful

00:38:50.710 --> 00:38:54.250
moments in this. The real heart of this for me,

00:38:54.329 --> 00:38:59.489
right, there are two key things that have both

00:38:59.489 --> 00:39:02.010
the soul of this story, what's important in this

00:39:02.010 --> 00:39:06.380
story, and the soul of Doctor Who. And I've seldom

00:39:06.380 --> 00:39:08.840
seen the essence of Doctor Who captured better

00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:11.219
than in these moments. And I'll try and explain

00:39:11.219 --> 00:39:14.519
as concisely as I can what I mean. One of them

00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:17.659
is the moment where the Doctor goes in to the

00:39:17.659 --> 00:39:19.679
wasteland, into that tent, and talks to that

00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:23.639
lady. And... That was a really good scene. It's

00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:27.269
so beautifully done. Yeah, it's so... It... The

00:39:27.269 --> 00:39:30.550
kindness in his eyes and the way she's so exhausted

00:39:30.550 --> 00:39:33.130
and she talks very, you know, with this sort

00:39:33.130 --> 00:39:35.550
of residual sense of romance about the place,

00:39:35.630 --> 00:39:38.909
but it's all fading, it's all going. And he is

00:39:38.909 --> 00:39:42.929
so gentle with the way he approaches it. He asks

00:39:42.929 --> 00:39:46.809
about the deceased baby. She isn't quite even

00:39:46.809 --> 00:39:48.409
aware that she's lost the child. She has some

00:39:48.409 --> 00:39:51.440
sort of... vague awareness at the end. And when

00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:53.760
she hands over the spoon, this is the crucial

00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:55.820
thing for me. I know some people find this very

00:39:55.820 --> 00:39:58.480
stupid. They were like, this is ridiculous. What

00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:01.960
is it he's after, a spoon? But they're sort of

00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:08.980
throwing away the poetry of that moment for just

00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:13.179
plot literalism, you know? And I think what that

00:40:13.179 --> 00:40:16.059
scene gives us is just like this amazing distillation

00:40:16.059 --> 00:40:19.690
of the Doctor. where he holds his spoon aloft

00:40:19.690 --> 00:40:23.869
and he says, with this spoon, I might save the

00:40:23.869 --> 00:40:27.510
universe, right? And then by the time that scene

00:40:27.510 --> 00:40:30.250
has ended and that lady is deceased, he actually

00:40:30.250 --> 00:40:34.070
changes, it has changed from I might to I swear,

00:40:34.269 --> 00:40:37.110
right? Now he doesn't mean literally the spoon

00:40:37.110 --> 00:40:39.449
and only the spoon, but there's something in

00:40:39.449 --> 00:40:42.030
that that boils down the essence of the Doctor

00:40:42.030 --> 00:40:45.730
to like, what is he? He's a very silly man who

00:40:45.730 --> 00:40:48.599
can do... the most profound and hope -giving

00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:51.739
things by virtue of the sheer silliness, you

00:40:51.739 --> 00:40:55.059
know. Do you know what I mean? Like, he takes

00:40:55.059 --> 00:40:58.079
the most improbable thing there and he gives

00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:02.420
you hope and you believe him, you know. And I

00:41:02.420 --> 00:41:05.219
think that's Doctor Who in a nutshell. I've never

00:41:05.219 --> 00:41:08.059
seen a scene, I've seen very few scenes in the

00:41:08.059 --> 00:41:11.380
series history. And what's crazy is, Russell

00:41:11.380 --> 00:41:13.559
D. Davis said on the commentary, you'll probably

00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:15.989
remember this. that they were going to cut that

00:41:15.989 --> 00:41:19.610
out, that whole scene was going to go. That's

00:41:19.610 --> 00:41:21.550
unbelievable to me, that they would have sacrificed

00:41:21.550 --> 00:41:23.590
that on the altar of having some more stuff in

00:41:23.590 --> 00:41:28.630
the Westminster. Easily, I think, the best final

00:41:28.630 --> 00:41:32.750
episode for me. The other thing I was talking

00:41:32.750 --> 00:41:35.190
about that I think encapsulates the spirit and

00:41:35.190 --> 00:41:39.110
the heart of Doctor Who in this story is... a

00:41:39.110 --> 00:41:40.969
lot of people were complaining afterwards about

00:41:40.969 --> 00:41:43.070
how much time was spent in the memory tardis

00:41:43.070 --> 00:41:45.250
and even saying it was embarrassing and just

00:41:45.250 --> 00:41:47.190
you know they had all that disney money and look

00:41:47.190 --> 00:41:48.650
what they've done i've taken it down into this

00:41:48.650 --> 00:41:52.090
they've set one third of this finale in this

00:41:52.090 --> 00:41:56.510
cramped little cluttered space and to me what

00:41:56.510 --> 00:41:59.050
that's saying is that's rtd having really good

00:41:59.050 --> 00:42:01.309
instincts and going yes we have all this disney

00:42:01.309 --> 00:42:03.989
money now right we have It's brilliant that we

00:42:03.989 --> 00:42:08.050
have it and we can and should be doing amazing

00:42:08.050 --> 00:42:11.130
things we've never been able to do before with

00:42:11.130 --> 00:42:14.610
this. But let's remember what Doctor Who has.

00:42:14.730 --> 00:42:17.849
It has a BBC heart. It's BBC to its core, right?

00:42:18.550 --> 00:42:20.769
This might sound like a strange thing to bring

00:42:20.769 --> 00:42:23.670
in at this moment, but what is more BBC, right?

00:42:24.210 --> 00:42:27.530
The BBC we grew up with, you and I. I'm a bit

00:42:27.530 --> 00:42:29.610
older than you, but you'll know what I'm talking

00:42:29.610 --> 00:42:34.760
about. The likes of, you know, the broom cupboard,

00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:38.099
for instance, right? The memory tortoise is the

00:42:38.099 --> 00:42:40.739
broom cupboard. It's this intimate space. It's

00:42:40.739 --> 00:42:43.619
the counterintuitive move of, yes, we're this

00:42:43.619 --> 00:42:47.300
big institution, but come and join us behind

00:42:47.300 --> 00:42:49.440
the water pipes in this little silly cupboard

00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.420
and you'll feel like our friends every afternoon.

00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:53.599
Do you know what I mean? It's kind of drawing

00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.059
you into an intimate space. in a way that no

00:42:56.059 --> 00:42:57.960
amount of grandstanding with money could ever

00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:00.739
do. And I think that all those little touchstones,

00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:02.980
it's not just Mel caressing the Sixth Doctor's

00:43:02.980 --> 00:43:06.760
coat or holding the Seventh Doctor's question

00:43:06.760 --> 00:43:08.960
mark. I know all those lovely kisses to the past

00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:11.559
are there, but it's just bringing the scale back

00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:17.500
down, pulling you in and giving you hope in this

00:43:17.500 --> 00:43:21.659
little warm ember of sanctuary in the middle

00:43:21.659 --> 00:43:24.500
of this devastated universe. And from there...

00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:28.280
giving the doctor just this little breathing

00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:32.119
space to find his way back to his best self.

00:43:32.380 --> 00:43:36.400
And I just, I'm not talking about it as articulately

00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:38.159
as I wanted to, but you know what I mean about

00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:40.599
that? There's something like, it's the spirit

00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:42.320
of the broom cupboard, it's the spirit of Lime

00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.659
Grove. It's small, it's intimate, and it's going,

00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:49.300
doctor who is still this, it hasn't forgotten

00:43:49.300 --> 00:43:53.550
what it is, and it's still here. Please see that

00:43:53.550 --> 00:43:55.190
we see that and please see that that's the heart

00:43:55.190 --> 00:43:58.150
of it. And then at the very end, you get all

00:43:58.150 --> 00:43:59.929
that stuff about Ruby's mother, the scene in

00:43:59.929 --> 00:44:02.469
the coffee shop. And I think it's fantastic.

00:44:02.690 --> 00:44:06.909
I would happily watch 10 more scenes of that

00:44:06.909 --> 00:44:10.869
than I would have just Sutec saying villainy

00:44:10.869 --> 00:44:13.530
things while the doctor does witty retorts. You

00:44:13.530 --> 00:44:16.570
know, you need that stuff too. But I think they

00:44:16.570 --> 00:44:19.050
got the proportions exactly right. And I think

00:44:19.050 --> 00:44:26.929
they just... There's a bit in, again, another

00:44:26.929 --> 00:44:28.469
odd thing to bring in at this moment, but I was

00:44:28.469 --> 00:44:31.650
watching a bit of season 17 the other night,

00:44:31.710 --> 00:44:35.670
of all things. And I hadn't seen it in years,

00:44:35.750 --> 00:44:39.949
but Creature from the Pit. And the doctor, Tom

00:44:39.949 --> 00:44:41.750
Baker, just throws out this very flippant comment.

00:44:42.610 --> 00:44:44.349
I had a couple of things that guy didn't have,

00:44:44.389 --> 00:44:47.880
which was a teaspoon and an open mind. And that

00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:50.619
phrase, you know, there's the doctor holding

00:44:50.619 --> 00:44:52.940
the spoon aloft, you know, that's kind of nearly

00:44:52.940 --> 00:44:54.920
like the... Yeah, I was just thinking of that

00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:56.900
phrase when you mentioned... Yeah, there he is

00:44:56.900 --> 00:44:59.519
with his teaspoon and open mind. And it's the

00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:01.219
only way back to the universe in that moment.

00:45:01.380 --> 00:45:04.039
It's like it makes, you know, it gives me goosebumps

00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:08.539
thinking about it. And so, yeah, I don't know.

00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:11.000
So I've seen all this stuff in it that apparently

00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:13.940
other people aren't seeing. Maybe I'm over -romanticizing

00:45:13.940 --> 00:45:18.219
it. I see it, definitely. The stuff with the

00:45:18.219 --> 00:45:20.860
scene with the spoon, I definitely see that.

00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:22.599
And that's, I think, one of the reasons why I

00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:25.880
liked that part of the episode. I liked lots

00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:29.780
of parts of this episode, all this two -part

00:45:29.780 --> 00:45:33.340
finale, including the stuff with Ruby's mother.

00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:36.179
I think that was played really nicely. There

00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:42.460
are little things like where the barista's called

00:45:42.460 --> 00:45:45.440
Ruby's order and she's said, yeah, that's me,

00:45:45.539 --> 00:45:47.510
and then just ignored the... Bruce didn't have

00:45:47.510 --> 00:45:51.090
that conversation with his mum. But no, it's

00:45:51.090 --> 00:45:56.050
played with a lot of really affecting emotion.

00:45:57.909 --> 00:46:02.750
The one last thing that didn't work as well for

00:46:02.750 --> 00:46:09.309
me was the departure at the end. And it felt

00:46:09.309 --> 00:46:14.969
like something that was designed to come at the

00:46:14.969 --> 00:46:18.820
end of a longer run. of time with Ruby and the

00:46:18.820 --> 00:46:22.179
Doctor. Because we've had eight episodes, two

00:46:22.179 --> 00:46:26.840
of which we haven't had both of them heavily

00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:31.059
featured. So six episodes plus a Christmas special.

00:46:33.139 --> 00:46:35.980
And it felt like it was really going for it with

00:46:35.980 --> 00:46:39.860
that sort of Rose and the Doctor parting ways

00:46:39.860 --> 00:46:45.840
in Doomsday sort of energy. Again, both the actors

00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:49.800
played it really, really well. The scene in isolation

00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:53.780
was great. It's just I didn't feel like there

00:46:53.780 --> 00:46:56.579
had been enough build -up over the previous episodes

00:46:56.579 --> 00:47:01.719
to warrant that level of focus on it. Yeah, I

00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:03.380
understand what you're saying. And yet when I

00:47:03.380 --> 00:47:05.840
watched it, and every time I've watched that

00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:10.320
scene so far, the fact that it hits me, it does

00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:14.059
affect me emotionally. i i get it you know i

00:47:14.059 --> 00:47:16.780
get the feels as they say you know every time

00:47:16.780 --> 00:47:22.119
and and deeply and i mean the doctor's little

00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:24.300
tight smile at the end there like he's he's wait

00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:26.840
it's it's it's kind of like a little echo of

00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:28.920
when sarah leaves at the end of hand of fear

00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:30.219
or something like that you know he's holding

00:47:30.219 --> 00:47:33.199
it in but he's not really holding it he's slightly

00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:35.619
better at short but he's still you know it again

00:47:35.619 --> 00:47:37.619
there we are there's a double -edged sword of

00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:40.380
post -therapy but not still still not brilliant

00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:45.349
at some aspects of that um but you know that

00:47:45.349 --> 00:47:52.989
there's yeah i i can i think i i can i can just

00:47:52.989 --> 00:47:55.469
looking at it from a production standpoint i

00:47:55.469 --> 00:47:58.789
suspect what happened is that you're right it

00:47:58.789 --> 00:48:03.210
was intended to be a longer run i think how things

00:48:03.210 --> 00:48:05.449
hit the the news headlines got a bit garbled

00:48:05.449 --> 00:48:08.230
there probably was an honest conversation between

00:48:08.230 --> 00:48:12.199
um millie gibson and the production team where

00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:15.280
she maybe said like i i can't presently at any

00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:17.980
rate for whatever her reasons were i can't presently

00:48:17.980 --> 00:48:20.559
carry on at this this rate of workload and i

00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:22.960
for my mental health or something you know this

00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:25.980
is me i have no basis for this it's just it's

00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:28.260
just my own feelings about what might have happened

00:48:28.260 --> 00:48:31.880
so she maybe was meant to be right through the

00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:34.659
following season too but they felt the duty of

00:48:34.659 --> 00:48:36.679
care towards her and they said we want you to

00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:38.599
still be part of it so we'll bring you back in

00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:41.280
a smaller capacity smaller but just as important

00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:44.400
capacity next season and so they probably did

00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:46.719
have to reshape that ending but given that that's

00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:49.599
the case i still think it was really well done

00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:52.440
and actually quite well rationalized you know

00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:55.820
i've heard people complain that um they believe

00:48:55.820 --> 00:48:59.239
that her you know having found her birth mother

00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:01.579
and and investigating the birth father and all

00:49:01.579 --> 00:49:03.840
that was was too flimsy a reason in their opinion

00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:07.380
for for them to have this sort of even temporary

00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:09.260
separation, but I don't think that's true. I

00:49:09.260 --> 00:49:12.219
think it's right to me. It makes loads of sense.

00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:15.800
Like, I think absolutely. I think the only thing

00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:20.039
I personally would have preferred is if it was

00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:23.019
just like a little, yeah, like you mentioned

00:49:23.019 --> 00:49:26.719
Sarah leaving, like that sort of just a little

00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:29.260
more underplayed with like just a moment of,

00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:32.460
you know, him alone in the TARDIS afterwards

00:49:32.460 --> 00:49:36.739
rather than it. Yeah, again, like I said, being

00:49:36.739 --> 00:49:39.320
played like they're being ripped apart and they're

00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:42.099
never going to see each other again. I know that's

00:49:42.099 --> 00:49:44.239
the, like on an emotional level, that's what

00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:46.460
the Doctor's feeling because like, yeah, they're

00:49:46.460 --> 00:49:48.780
temporarily separated, but he knows that this

00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:50.900
is like the beginning of the end and they're

00:49:50.900 --> 00:49:53.880
not going to be travelling together. One other

00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:58.119
thing I just want to bring in, because this illustrates

00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:00.619
both something that... kind of simultaneously

00:50:00.619 --> 00:50:04.420
a scene that both simultaneously annoyed and

00:50:04.420 --> 00:50:10.159
you know I both loved it and hated it at the

00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:13.619
same time because there's that very quiet scene

00:50:13.619 --> 00:50:15.900
where Kate comes and finds the doctor you know

00:50:15.900 --> 00:50:19.440
in one of the little pauses and things in the

00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:23.039
middle of all the madness and she says she's

00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:24.699
talking to him about how her father would tell

00:50:24.699 --> 00:50:28.280
stories about the doctor you know and in the

00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:32.139
firelight mill when she was younger and uh he

00:50:32.139 --> 00:50:35.380
says this amazing thing which i think is is very

00:50:35.380 --> 00:50:39.960
uh on point for his doctor in particular where

00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:45.320
he says uh in those days i was the great enigma

00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:48.400
and i'm still trying to shake that off and i

00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:50.239
think that's brilliant that's so him right he's

00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:52.920
all about text and not he's all about sort of

00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:58.110
text and not subtext these days he He wants to

00:50:58.110 --> 00:51:01.889
be straightforward. He wants to be, you know,

00:51:01.889 --> 00:51:04.969
this is progress for him, not to be so, you know,

00:51:04.969 --> 00:51:08.170
mysterious all the time, even though he will

00:51:08.170 --> 00:51:10.949
accuse himself of exactly that in the Christmas

00:51:10.949 --> 00:51:15.590
special. But at the same time, the one bit I

00:51:15.590 --> 00:51:17.329
really didn't like in that was he's talking about

00:51:17.329 --> 00:51:21.510
his granddaughter and saying, oh, yeah, I am

00:51:21.510 --> 00:51:24.110
a granddaughter, but not yet. And I just thought,

00:51:24.230 --> 00:51:29.539
what? I don't know. That just doesn't... Yeah,

00:51:29.539 --> 00:51:31.900
there's been a lot of little skirting around

00:51:31.900 --> 00:51:36.860
Susan in the Devil's Chord as well. Maybe we

00:51:36.860 --> 00:51:39.639
can talk about that briefly in our expectations

00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:42.500
and see if that will come back. Shall we go on

00:51:42.500 --> 00:51:45.260
to... Yes, I did really ramble on there. Apologies.

00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:48.579
I feel like one of the few people that really

00:51:48.579 --> 00:51:55.049
thinks an emperor of death is actually... I'll

00:51:55.049 --> 00:51:57.210
stop short of saying a masterpiece, but way,

00:51:57.210 --> 00:51:59.429
way better than people are giving it credit,

00:51:59.570 --> 00:52:01.190
like many people are giving it credit for. So

00:52:01.190 --> 00:52:04.170
I probably got a bit carried away there. No,

00:52:04.210 --> 00:52:08.110
I think it's always better to hear a sort of

00:52:08.110 --> 00:52:11.670
defence of something that has been, you know,

00:52:11.710 --> 00:52:13.690
had a mixed reception rather than just rehashing

00:52:13.690 --> 00:52:17.369
the same tidal criticisms. And like I said, I

00:52:17.369 --> 00:52:20.630
agree with you a lot about those bits in isolation,

00:52:20.969 --> 00:52:23.659
like that scene in Scatulating. the spirit of

00:52:23.659 --> 00:52:26.199
Doctor Who, I think that's a really lovely thought

00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:30.360
as well. But yeah, let's go on to Joy to the

00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:33.900
World. I think both of us liked this one, and

00:52:33.900 --> 00:52:37.960
I think a lot of people did as well. I think

00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:41.480
overall it went down quite well. Viewing figures,

00:52:41.739 --> 00:52:44.699
Christmas always means there's a bit of a bump,

00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:47.539
but I think it did reasonably well in the viewing

00:52:47.539 --> 00:52:50.000
figures as well. I don't have the numbers to

00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:55.210
hand. But yeah, I think you especially liked

00:52:55.210 --> 00:52:58.150
this one. What was it about Joy to the World

00:52:58.150 --> 00:53:01.309
that really stood out for you? Okay, yeah. I

00:53:01.309 --> 00:53:03.190
actually, when I watched this on Christmas Day,

00:53:03.309 --> 00:53:05.650
I think about five minutes after the episode

00:53:05.650 --> 00:53:09.050
had ended, I realized that it was my favorite

00:53:09.050 --> 00:53:13.829
Christmas special of all. And I thought, wow,

00:53:14.030 --> 00:53:16.610
that's a very, you know, normally it takes a

00:53:16.610 --> 00:53:18.610
little time to make up your mind about that stuff.

00:53:18.809 --> 00:53:22.550
But I thought that's a very firm. I've drawn

00:53:22.550 --> 00:53:25.329
quite quickly there. Why is it my favorite? And

00:53:25.329 --> 00:53:27.829
I think it just, it's a number of things. I think

00:53:27.829 --> 00:53:33.829
it just, I think it's the one that just destroyed

00:53:33.829 --> 00:53:37.769
me the most emotionally. Like it just, you know,

00:53:37.769 --> 00:53:39.590
to bring it back, like what do you want a Christmas

00:53:39.590 --> 00:53:42.329
episode to do? You don't want it to be overly

00:53:42.329 --> 00:53:46.170
mawkish, but you want it to resonate deeply with

00:53:46.170 --> 00:53:50.150
you on an emotional or spiritual level or something.

00:53:50.969 --> 00:53:55.110
this did now one criticism i've heard people

00:53:55.110 --> 00:54:01.550
say quite a lot is that they find it um i don't

00:54:01.550 --> 00:54:03.170
know whether you will or won't agree with this

00:54:03.170 --> 00:54:07.929
one but they they find it to be like uh an uneasy

00:54:07.929 --> 00:54:11.550
compromise between in other words it should in

00:54:11.550 --> 00:54:13.210
their opinion it should have been one thing or

00:54:13.210 --> 00:54:15.789
the other either the the year spent at the hotel

00:54:15.789 --> 00:54:20.250
exclusively or it should have been giving joy

00:54:20.250 --> 00:54:24.869
more airtime um how do you feel about that actually

00:54:24.869 --> 00:54:27.570
i i wouldn't have i think i said at the time

00:54:27.570 --> 00:54:32.409
i would have liked more time with joy i think

00:54:32.409 --> 00:54:38.869
it was enough like yeah it was enough for that

00:54:38.869 --> 00:54:41.369
ending to have the impact it was supposed to

00:54:41.369 --> 00:54:46.820
have and yeah so in hindsight i think it works

00:54:46.820 --> 00:54:49.260
fine but yeah my initial impression was more

00:54:49.260 --> 00:54:51.300
along those lines of like this felt a bit and

00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:54.719
i think part of the sort of confusion with that

00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:58.300
was like who was being pushed as the big star

00:54:58.300 --> 00:55:01.079
um and maybe that was like a marketing thing

00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:04.900
um but both of these actresses were great but

00:55:04.900 --> 00:55:06.880
it just seemed weird that only one of them was

00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:09.579
like getting that top billing when both of them

00:55:09.579 --> 00:55:12.179
had some really great moments with the doctor

00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:15.860
I have a little theory about that. But actually,

00:55:15.940 --> 00:55:18.559
what I want to say before it goes out of my head

00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:24.519
first is that I actually feel that it was perfectly

00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:27.219
weighted between those two elements. I think

00:55:27.219 --> 00:55:29.179
some people are looking at it as this thing that

00:55:29.179 --> 00:55:33.539
was sort of like had to be, you know, was bodged

00:55:33.539 --> 00:55:36.780
together from parts for behind the scenes reasons.

00:55:36.860 --> 00:55:39.480
And you can sort of see the join. And to me.

00:55:39.980 --> 00:55:41.840
Instead, it looks like it's been carved out of

00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:44.159
whole marble the whole time. Like it's a perfect

00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:47.139
thing. And the exact amount of joy and the exact

00:55:47.139 --> 00:55:51.079
amount of the year the hotel was there, that

00:55:51.079 --> 00:55:54.000
thing works as a short story in the middle perfectly.

00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:57.599
And any more of it would have over toppled it.

00:55:58.539 --> 00:56:02.260
And any less of, I think we just had just the

00:56:02.260 --> 00:56:04.920
right amount of joy to really get to know her

00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:09.780
as a person, get some really... powerful stuff

00:56:09.780 --> 00:56:14.980
from her and and then see her you know transform

00:56:14.980 --> 00:56:17.900
into the star and by then really feel something

00:56:17.900 --> 00:56:21.239
about that because but but the theory thing i

00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:23.599
was going to get back to was isn't it interesting

00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:27.079
that yes she did have the star you know nicola

00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:29.019
cochlan whose star is very much on the rise no

00:56:29.019 --> 00:56:35.559
pun no pun intended um but she so so and then

00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:41.429
you have this actress playing um Anita. And first

00:56:41.429 --> 00:56:44.489
of all, Anita, that's an interesting name. I

00:56:44.489 --> 00:56:46.650
don't know whether that's a bit of a red herring

00:56:46.650 --> 00:56:48.510
or a teasing of the fans to try and make you

00:56:48.510 --> 00:56:52.489
make a connection with Mrs. Flood, but it wouldn't

00:56:52.489 --> 00:56:55.510
surprise me because if she did turn out to be

00:56:55.510 --> 00:56:59.869
Mrs. Flood in the end, and it's because the cast

00:56:59.869 --> 00:57:02.869
and actress there, and if I remember rightly,

00:57:02.969 --> 00:57:06.750
she was It was her first television thing ever.

00:57:06.989 --> 00:57:09.510
And it was supposed to, well, notionally, it

00:57:09.510 --> 00:57:13.309
was supposed to be quite a small five minute

00:57:13.309 --> 00:57:15.489
appearance by her. Or you would only have seen

00:57:15.489 --> 00:57:17.769
the bits you saw at the start with Joy signing

00:57:17.769 --> 00:57:20.650
in and so on. And we're told the story that actually

00:57:20.650 --> 00:57:22.449
when they realized what she could do, they wrote

00:57:22.449 --> 00:57:25.150
up her part more and more. And I'm not sure I

00:57:25.150 --> 00:57:26.550
believe that. I think that feels like a little

00:57:26.550 --> 00:57:29.070
bit of a fib. And I think they wrote it exactly

00:57:29.070 --> 00:57:31.469
as it was from the outset, but they didn't want

00:57:31.469 --> 00:57:34.360
to pull too much focus towards this lady. But

00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:36.960
they needed to pull a certain amount of focus

00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:38.739
to her by giving her this full year in the doctor's

00:57:38.739 --> 00:57:42.679
company because she may well turn out to be Mrs.

00:57:42.900 --> 00:57:45.659
Flood. And you may think, well, how would that

00:57:45.659 --> 00:57:47.260
be? Because she's just a very straightforward,

00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:49.440
normal person. But then she goes to work in the

00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:52.159
Time Hotel. So let's imagine that maybe she gets,

00:57:52.239 --> 00:57:55.150
I don't know, possessed by a force. Maybe she

00:57:55.150 --> 00:57:57.710
becomes the receptacle for one of the guardians

00:57:57.710 --> 00:58:00.449
or something. I don't know what it is. Something

00:58:00.449 --> 00:58:02.750
quite big would have to happen. Because, like

00:58:02.750 --> 00:58:04.630
I said, I was re -watching Empire of Death, and

00:58:04.630 --> 00:58:08.289
the way that she talks, she's talking about herself

00:58:08.289 --> 00:58:12.349
as being on the same level as gods, even if she's

00:58:12.349 --> 00:58:15.929
not a god herself. It's so interesting, isn't

00:58:15.929 --> 00:58:18.289
it? Yeah, she's talking about tearing down the

00:58:18.289 --> 00:58:20.449
gates of heaven and stuff like that. We do have

00:58:20.449 --> 00:58:25.320
hints at hell in the forthcoming. season. So

00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:26.619
there's something going on with heaven and hell

00:58:26.619 --> 00:58:32.579
there. But yeah, to return to Joy to the World,

00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:37.719
I just found it a perfect emotional journey.

00:58:37.860 --> 00:58:43.639
I love the fact that at the end, they actually

00:58:43.639 --> 00:58:47.260
treat the business of the Bethlehem moment with,

00:58:47.480 --> 00:58:51.340
first of all, I think it's right. after all the

00:58:51.340 --> 00:58:53.559
Christmas specials we've had to finally go there,

00:58:53.699 --> 00:58:57.519
but also to do it in a way that respects everybody.

00:58:57.699 --> 00:59:01.039
So whether you're atheist, agnostic or a firm

00:59:01.039 --> 00:59:03.199
believer, you can take what you want from that

00:59:03.199 --> 00:59:05.440
moment. It can hit you on your own emotional

00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:08.340
level. The iconography of it is still there and

00:59:08.340 --> 00:59:10.619
the joy of the doctor in that moment and just

00:59:10.619 --> 00:59:13.280
the visuals and the music in particular, I just

00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:16.099
think it all comes together. There's a beautiful

00:59:16.099 --> 00:59:18.300
music cue, that whole final build up to that

00:59:18.300 --> 00:59:21.800
moment. um it's done very reverently and like

00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:25.699
yeah in a way that's not gonna upset anyone but

00:59:25.699 --> 00:59:27.980
it's also a little bit fun and it's it's almost

00:59:27.980 --> 00:59:30.460
like the sort of um the dialogue version of it

00:59:30.460 --> 00:59:32.920
is it the tenth doctor who drops a hint about

00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:38.800
um being at the stable but oh yeah um like when

00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:41.760
you hear him talk about it that's like much more

00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:44.900
irreverent in terms of how it's put across but

00:59:44.900 --> 00:59:47.440
this was like there's a slight flippancy about

00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:49.159
the no room at the end at the start but then

00:59:49.159 --> 00:59:51.400
i think when you get there it's it's done very

00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:54.579
very sensitively and and actually something else

00:59:54.579 --> 00:59:56.900
you've just reminded me of was another sort of

00:59:56.900 --> 01:00:00.039
sensitive approaching of that was in um the paul

01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:03.000
mcgann story on audio the relative dimensions

01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:06.099
where he talks about leonardo wanting to go see

01:00:06.099 --> 01:00:10.829
the the nativity and so on, and then they get

01:00:10.829 --> 01:00:13.550
almost to the inn and then he has a panic attack

01:00:13.550 --> 01:00:16.030
and needs to go back. And so he takes, you know,

01:00:16.090 --> 01:00:21.110
but he describes that whole thing so beautifully

01:00:21.110 --> 01:00:22.570
and then he says, well, he still ended up painting

01:00:22.570 --> 01:00:26.289
a beautiful picture at the end of it. And anyway,

01:00:26.369 --> 01:00:29.530
that's a bit of a tangent. I didn't really need

01:00:29.530 --> 01:00:35.090
to go on there. I just, it's just, it's a very,

01:00:36.190 --> 01:00:39.250
stephen moffat -y thing you know to have that

01:00:39.250 --> 01:00:42.829
just i don't know he he plots it so well and

01:00:42.829 --> 01:00:45.909
he he has just the right the right character

01:00:45.909 --> 01:00:47.829
things said you know like there's a character

01:00:47.829 --> 01:00:51.289
like trev you know he's not in it much but you

01:00:51.289 --> 01:00:53.630
you really feel for trev you know like he by

01:00:53.630 --> 01:00:58.829
the end he's he's he feels like an old friend

01:00:58.829 --> 01:01:01.750
and you're like yeah i'm glad you're you're dead

01:01:01.750 --> 01:01:04.750
but you're happy you know yeah that's really

01:01:04.750 --> 01:01:06.710
good i mean things like the night of the doctor

01:01:06.710 --> 01:01:09.329
is the peak example of that of like packing a

01:01:09.329 --> 01:01:12.329
lot in and doing it in a really deft concise

01:01:12.329 --> 01:01:15.650
way um and i totally agree with you that there's

01:01:15.650 --> 01:01:18.230
lots of little examples of that here one that

01:01:18.230 --> 01:01:20.929
stood out for me one example of that was is the

01:01:20.929 --> 01:01:25.349
opening scene which is um kind of i think i talked

01:01:25.349 --> 01:01:27.929
about this on the the sort of immediate reaction

01:01:27.929 --> 01:01:33.230
episode but it's kind of Going against this thing

01:01:33.230 --> 01:01:38.730
of the Doctor being... Going back to the thing

01:01:38.730 --> 01:01:41.829
about the Doctor being this weird Patrick Troughton

01:01:41.829 --> 01:01:45.989
-style character who's popping into steel milk

01:01:45.989 --> 01:01:51.949
rather than being a superhero or some other type

01:01:51.949 --> 01:01:53.590
of character. It felt like really going back

01:01:53.590 --> 01:01:56.489
to the weird, strange roots of the character.

01:01:57.349 --> 01:01:59.969
I did love that, yeah, the milk stealing and

01:01:59.969 --> 01:02:01.909
the mugs that are bigger on the inside and all

01:02:01.909 --> 01:02:04.289
that. Just him in his house coat there, like,

01:02:04.289 --> 01:02:07.650
you know, just the whole thing's brilliant. Yeah,

01:02:07.650 --> 01:02:10.710
and just, well, there's so much you could say.

01:02:11.590 --> 01:02:15.309
I just, I know I'm not going to be able to do

01:02:15.309 --> 01:02:17.349
the thing justice. It's just how it hits me on

01:02:17.349 --> 01:02:20.210
an emotional level. I think, I know I could watch

01:02:20.210 --> 01:02:22.130
that one again. Oh, I'll tell you what, sorry,

01:02:22.230 --> 01:02:24.210
I would be absolutely furious with myself if

01:02:24.210 --> 01:02:28.190
I hadn't mentioned this part. that moment in

01:02:28.190 --> 01:02:31.030
the lift like the part that really captivates

01:02:31.030 --> 01:02:33.489
me every time it's it's uncomfortable to watch

01:02:33.489 --> 01:02:36.650
but it is brilliant and it's almost like the

01:02:36.650 --> 01:02:39.510
doctor has to channel his inner seventh doctor

01:02:39.510 --> 01:02:41.110
in that moment or something because the stakes

01:02:41.110 --> 01:02:43.730
are so high yeah i really like like that moment

01:02:43.730 --> 01:02:46.590
he is brutal there you know and it's like he

01:02:46.590 --> 01:02:48.769
doesn't hold back you know you really there's

01:02:48.769 --> 01:02:51.389
no there's no now you know it's you know it's

01:02:51.389 --> 01:02:55.750
hurting him on the inside to do that but he gives

01:02:55.750 --> 01:02:58.389
it like he goes full method like he's he's just

01:02:58.389 --> 01:03:01.929
going right i have to be and you can't hear you

01:03:01.929 --> 01:03:04.789
know cruel to be kind yeah and you can't have

01:03:04.789 --> 01:03:07.550
that every episode but i think those sorts of

01:03:07.550 --> 01:03:11.030
moments are great for actually giving this doctor

01:03:11.030 --> 01:03:15.349
some edges and some because he's extremely like

01:03:15.349 --> 01:03:18.130
charismatic and likable in every episode he's

01:03:18.130 --> 01:03:22.309
in but though and it's the same with jodie jodie

01:03:22.309 --> 01:03:24.599
whittaker's doctor as well actually like extremely

01:03:24.599 --> 01:03:27.420
likeable and watchable and really feels like

01:03:27.420 --> 01:03:31.400
the Doctor. But I wanted her to get more moments

01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:35.719
of that edge and those unexpected turns. And

01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:39.739
yeah, the moment in the lift that you've described,

01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:43.619
that worked so well for me because of that. Yeah,

01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:45.519
I could watch that over and over again just because

01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:47.900
as an acting thing between the two of them, it

01:03:47.900 --> 01:03:52.019
is immaculate. Every single beat and choice that

01:03:52.019 --> 01:03:55.579
they make. um and it even helps you forget about

01:03:55.579 --> 01:03:57.579
the fact that this must be traveling incredibly

01:03:57.579 --> 01:04:02.159
slowly but you know it's a very common that's

01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:04.539
a very common tv trike that like lifts take just

01:04:04.539 --> 01:04:07.400
as long as you need for a conversation to happen

01:04:07.400 --> 01:04:13.219
um one more thing to mention about this episode

01:04:13.219 --> 01:04:16.440
i think before before we move on is um and you

01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:20.510
sort of you alluded to it earlier but like all

01:04:20.510 --> 01:04:23.409
the stuff with Joy's mum and I don't know if

01:04:23.409 --> 01:04:26.090
they used the word COVID but like referring to

01:04:26.090 --> 01:04:29.849
the pandemic in a pretty obvious way I thought

01:04:29.849 --> 01:04:34.769
all of that was like incredibly like really well

01:04:34.769 --> 01:04:40.170
judged in terms of how far they go and the balance

01:04:40.170 --> 01:04:46.250
between you know being upsetting and like having

01:04:46.250 --> 01:04:49.699
that moment of happiness at the end and doing

01:04:49.699 --> 01:04:54.360
all that in a fluffy piece of Christmas television.

01:04:55.059 --> 01:04:57.679
And, yeah, I thought it walked all those lines

01:04:57.679 --> 01:05:02.659
really well. And it contrasted, and it was very

01:05:02.659 --> 01:05:06.539
real. It was like acknowledging that COVID and

01:05:06.539 --> 01:05:08.380
the pandemic happened, and it's always interesting

01:05:08.380 --> 01:05:12.760
how TV shows engage or don't engage with those

01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:17.420
sorts of things. And it contrasted for me with...

01:05:17.659 --> 01:05:20.780
like back in 2005, where you have the reference

01:05:20.780 --> 01:05:24.019
to weapons of mass destruction. What was the

01:05:24.019 --> 01:05:27.039
phrase? Weapons... Oh, they could be deployed

01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:30.659
in 45 minutes. Or was it 45 seconds? 45 seconds.

01:05:30.780 --> 01:05:33.579
And it was something like weapons of... There

01:05:33.579 --> 01:05:36.500
was some variation on that phrase. And that was

01:05:36.500 --> 01:05:39.099
obviously referring to real -world events, but

01:05:39.099 --> 01:05:43.000
in a much more kind of jokey sci -fi sort of

01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:49.719
way that was still... and was making some sort

01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:51.280
of point. And, you know, the whole thing about

01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:53.760
the Tony Blair analogue being the Prime Minister.

01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:57.960
But the way it's handled in Joy to the World,

01:05:57.960 --> 01:06:03.219
I thought it was like a really emotionally sincere

01:06:03.219 --> 01:06:06.260
and well -judged version of that in terms of

01:06:06.260 --> 01:06:09.579
engaging with serious real -world events. Oh,

01:06:09.599 --> 01:06:12.179
completely. I mean, and that bit where she just

01:06:12.179 --> 01:06:15.199
breaks emotionally because she's... reliving

01:06:15.199 --> 01:06:17.860
the trauma of listening to the advice. And she's

01:06:17.860 --> 01:06:22.099
reeling about these politicians that, you know,

01:06:22.099 --> 01:06:26.500
were total hypocrites and the damage that, you

01:06:26.500 --> 01:06:29.559
know, it would have been, it's a traumatizing

01:06:29.559 --> 01:06:31.940
thing anyway, but to have been so badly let down.

01:06:32.840 --> 01:06:38.300
I think Doctor Who acknowledging that in about

01:06:38.300 --> 01:06:44.530
as overt a way or making room for that. to the

01:06:44.530 --> 01:06:47.429
right extent not not not underselling it and

01:06:47.429 --> 01:06:51.530
not um yeah not underselling it i think that's

01:06:51.530 --> 01:06:56.590
the key thing yeah um yeah so but uh yeah and

01:06:56.590 --> 01:06:58.809
of course it was very specifically the year 2020

01:06:58.809 --> 01:07:01.349
there you know so what else could it be except

01:07:01.349 --> 01:07:03.130
for cover even though you're right it doesn't

01:07:03.130 --> 01:07:08.750
it doesn't explicitly say so um so yeah it's

01:07:08.750 --> 01:07:11.380
uh it's an incredibly powerful piece of work.

01:07:11.500 --> 01:07:14.440
I think it's neat. Actually, just one tiny thing

01:07:14.440 --> 01:07:19.219
further on Mrs. Flood. Somebody, this is not

01:07:19.219 --> 01:07:21.960
me, some other eagle -eyed person out there had

01:07:21.960 --> 01:07:27.800
spotted that there's a car in the first Christmas

01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:32.260
special, Churchill and Ruby Road. It appears

01:07:32.260 --> 01:07:36.719
to be the same blue car, supposedly, as Anita's

01:07:36.719 --> 01:07:41.239
car, and it's outside Mrs. Flood's house or whatever

01:07:41.239 --> 01:07:46.360
or nearby um in shot anyway and of course she

01:07:46.360 --> 01:07:49.400
has that moment where the car is reprogrammed

01:07:49.400 --> 01:07:51.159
to take her where she needs to go it's it's a

01:07:51.159 --> 01:07:54.480
bit tardissified or something um anyway sorry

01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:56.719
that's i just wanted to throw that in there because

01:07:56.719 --> 01:07:59.059
i thought i'm not taking credit for that one

01:07:59.059 --> 01:08:00.880
and i can't remember to whom i should give the

01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:02.420
credit but i read it somewhere online someone

01:08:02.420 --> 01:08:04.699
had spotted that and i thought it's an interesting

01:08:04.699 --> 01:08:08.179
catch well let's let's wrap up then with like

01:08:08.179 --> 01:08:13.119
moving on to season two theories hopes fears

01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:18.439
um we have episode titles we've got a few trailers

01:08:18.439 --> 01:08:21.159
now we've got a behind the scenes trailer um

01:08:21.159 --> 01:08:26.000
yeah let's let's do it in terms of like hopes

01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:28.539
and fears like what what are you hoping for from

01:08:28.539 --> 01:08:33.920
season two um non -cancellation at the end of

01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:40.239
it um well uh To be a bit more serious, well,

01:08:41.500 --> 01:08:43.979
not that that's not serious because we have serious

01:08:43.979 --> 01:08:54.020
worries about that, but I would just like to

01:08:54.020 --> 01:08:59.279
see, in a way, more of the same, because I think

01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:02.800
it's been a very strong run and I could just

01:09:02.800 --> 01:09:11.390
sit and watch. and another companion who's obviously

01:09:11.390 --> 01:09:13.909
going to have a great dynamic with him, just

01:09:13.909 --> 01:09:16.550
foregrounded against whatever events they're

01:09:16.550 --> 01:09:21.869
going to throw at us. Even though I said I'd

01:09:21.869 --> 01:09:23.890
learned my lesson, I think when we spoke about

01:09:23.890 --> 01:09:25.310
this last time, I said I'd learned my lesson

01:09:25.310 --> 01:09:28.750
and I absolutely wasn't going to rekindle the

01:09:28.750 --> 01:09:32.960
embers of the meta theory. I don't know. Things

01:09:32.960 --> 01:09:35.539
seem to be... There's a lot of things lining

01:09:35.539 --> 01:09:39.579
up, like episode two is very much along those...

01:09:39.579 --> 01:09:42.039
Well, that is the concept of episode two, and

01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:46.380
the name of the final episode is... Yeah, and

01:09:46.380 --> 01:09:51.399
even in terms of the promotional stuff, they

01:09:51.399 --> 01:09:54.060
have those, the whole adverts that they put on

01:09:54.060 --> 01:09:57.800
where the Doctor was popping up in programs,

01:09:58.180 --> 01:10:01.319
you know? And like an old episode of EastEnders,

01:10:01.359 --> 01:10:03.239
like a really old episode of EastEnders and stuff

01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:05.100
like that. And you're kind of going, what's,

01:10:05.100 --> 01:10:08.399
you know, is that saying something? Because if

01:10:08.399 --> 01:10:11.500
it's not saying something, it's an odd. That

01:10:11.500 --> 01:10:14.899
one in particular, you know, the 90s episode

01:10:14.899 --> 01:10:18.060
of EastEnders is a particularly odd one to have

01:10:18.060 --> 01:10:21.399
used. In isolation, you could just see that as

01:10:21.399 --> 01:10:23.779
like marketing, like an extension of the thing

01:10:23.779 --> 01:10:25.960
of like having fun with idents and things like

01:10:25.960 --> 01:10:27.659
we have done in the past, like, you know, David

01:10:27.659 --> 01:10:31.439
Tennant. driving a sled through the BBC ident.

01:10:31.800 --> 01:10:33.560
But we've had lots of stuff like that in the

01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:36.619
past. I think it's all of this stuff coming together

01:10:36.619 --> 01:10:40.800
in a cumulative way that starts to rekindle that

01:10:40.800 --> 01:10:44.880
theory. And the BBC, not the Disney, but the

01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:47.279
BBC promotional stuff had at the end, you know,

01:10:47.300 --> 01:10:51.899
those little cool, what do you call them? They're

01:10:51.899 --> 01:10:54.479
like just two second things of what each episode's

01:10:54.479 --> 01:10:58.379
about, you know, a little sort of style. yeah

01:10:58.379 --> 01:11:03.520
um the final one has you know cracks come out

01:11:03.520 --> 01:11:05.420
of the doctor who logo and stuff and it just

01:11:05.420 --> 01:11:09.340
if that's not saying doctor who will turn out

01:11:09.340 --> 01:11:11.800
to be a program from which all realities fragment

01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:15.619
i don't know what what would you know but i've

01:11:15.619 --> 01:11:18.060
been wrong about this before i'll probably be

01:11:18.060 --> 01:11:22.600
wrong again and you know uh i did mrs flood possibly

01:11:22.600 --> 01:11:26.539
turn out to be i don't know um romana gone bad

01:11:26.539 --> 01:11:32.819
or something god knows i i'm like i'm hoping

01:11:32.819 --> 01:11:36.880
for mrs flood to be some sort of really compelling

01:11:36.880 --> 01:11:41.979
interesting new character um i'm sure there's

01:11:41.979 --> 01:11:46.079
a way of having it be the rani or someone else

01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:49.779
that we already know and it being good but i

01:11:49.779 --> 01:11:53.199
don't know i just i feel like i'm drawn to the

01:11:53.199 --> 01:11:57.119
idea of her just being some new fascinating entity

01:11:57.119 --> 01:12:03.979
that we have no idea about. And even like a bit

01:12:03.979 --> 01:12:06.920
ambiguous about like who she is or what powers

01:12:06.920 --> 01:12:11.699
she has. And maybe we don't get all the answers

01:12:11.699 --> 01:12:14.060
about her by the end of the season. It sounds

01:12:14.060 --> 01:12:16.100
like there's going to, it seems obvious there's

01:12:16.100 --> 01:12:18.340
going to be some big reveal about her. And we

01:12:18.340 --> 01:12:20.500
even have hints about like which episode that's

01:12:20.500 --> 01:12:23.430
going to. come with with some of the leaks and

01:12:23.430 --> 01:12:26.289
things yeah i think russell c davis has like

01:12:26.289 --> 01:12:29.050
given a warning about which episodes to like

01:12:29.050 --> 01:12:34.430
really catch up with to avoidly see it on broadcast

01:12:34.430 --> 01:12:39.270
or or see it on online or or um social media

01:12:39.270 --> 01:12:41.930
for the rest of the day kind of thing three and

01:12:41.930 --> 01:12:45.329
six he said yeah so we know there's going to

01:12:45.329 --> 01:12:50.819
be big things in each of those episodes Yeah,

01:12:50.819 --> 01:12:53.859
I'd like there to be something new. I would like,

01:12:53.960 --> 01:13:00.319
because I wasn't as sold on the season one finale,

01:13:00.579 --> 01:13:05.140
one of my hopes is that seasons one and two work

01:13:05.140 --> 01:13:09.680
together to tell a story that's more satisfying

01:13:09.680 --> 01:13:13.340
for me as a whole. Here's an interesting thing

01:13:13.340 --> 01:13:20.149
on that very topic, which is... I forgot to say

01:13:20.149 --> 01:13:23.829
this when we were talking about the two -part

01:13:23.829 --> 01:13:28.510
finale just a moment ago. There's a point during

01:13:28.510 --> 01:13:32.350
the whole investigation of that amazing, beautifully

01:13:32.350 --> 01:13:34.869
done sequence where they're inside the VHS tape

01:13:34.869 --> 01:13:38.430
and all that. And Chidozie is what you call the

01:13:38.430 --> 01:13:43.529
unit operative that goes on in. The doctor encourages

01:13:43.529 --> 01:13:45.649
him to go on in at his own risk. And of course,

01:13:45.649 --> 01:13:51.109
the guy gets killed. um but at the point when

01:13:51.109 --> 01:13:55.109
he gets killed sutek well who we who we will

01:13:55.109 --> 01:13:57.270
later find out to have been sutek says the voice

01:13:57.270 --> 01:14:01.369
from the cloud says he has gone to hell right

01:14:01.369 --> 01:14:05.909
and then later on when when kate and every one

01:14:05.909 --> 01:14:08.229
else on the planet has died but then gets resurrected

01:14:08.229 --> 01:14:10.229
thanks to bringing death to death by the way

01:14:10.779 --> 01:14:13.859
I think Death to Death is not silly at all. It's

01:14:13.859 --> 01:14:17.039
beautiful and it's poetic and I will defend that

01:14:17.039 --> 01:14:22.140
one to the, well, to the death. But anyway, people

01:14:22.140 --> 01:14:23.680
are being sometimes overly literal about this

01:14:23.680 --> 01:14:27.140
stuff, but like Doctor Who, you know, who knows

01:14:27.140 --> 01:14:29.279
what the powers of a god are? He's weaponising,

01:14:29.460 --> 01:14:32.880
he's making the monster fall into his own traps

01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:34.699
and he's doing what he's always done there. So

01:14:34.699 --> 01:14:39.109
anyway, what was I saying? Oh yes, Kate... comes

01:14:39.109 --> 01:14:41.949
back and she says she remembers echoes of something.

01:14:43.029 --> 01:14:45.810
And I thought this time around, okay, that connects

01:14:45.810 --> 01:14:48.109
to what was said about Chidozie having gone to

01:14:48.109 --> 01:14:52.430
hell. And this forthcoming season, I think it's

01:14:52.430 --> 01:14:55.189
episode three, where that word seems to be somewhat

01:14:55.189 --> 01:14:59.810
associated with that episode. The first time

01:14:59.810 --> 01:15:02.909
I heard some of the titles leaked, that was originally

01:15:02.909 --> 01:15:06.970
going to be called Five Miles Down. And I don't

01:15:06.970 --> 01:15:10.630
know, hell, we've had that word used in the past

01:15:10.630 --> 01:15:12.630
and Doctor Who to refer to, for instance, the,

01:15:12.630 --> 01:15:17.750
you know, thing we call, the first one with the

01:15:17.750 --> 01:15:20.550
oud and all that, you know, we had. So, you know,

01:15:20.550 --> 01:15:24.609
it's probably not a literal one. My hope is that

01:15:24.609 --> 01:15:26.989
the two seasons work together as like two acts

01:15:26.989 --> 01:15:32.149
of the same story. The finale at the end of season

01:15:32.149 --> 01:15:34.710
two is going to wrap the whole thing up in some

01:15:34.710 --> 01:15:39.369
sort of way that feels very satisfying. I'm also

01:15:39.369 --> 01:15:42.010
really excited about the new companion. There's

01:15:42.010 --> 01:15:47.170
a lot of parallels to Martha. She's a nurse rather

01:15:47.170 --> 01:15:54.989
than a medical student. But yeah, just in the

01:15:54.989 --> 01:15:57.390
little bits that we've seen of her in the trailer,

01:15:57.529 --> 01:16:01.199
I just get like a really... And to Tegan because...

01:16:01.199 --> 01:16:03.460
Oh, yes. Tegan and Rhiannon Barber because the

01:16:03.460 --> 01:16:06.640
whole mission statement is to get her home. That's

01:16:06.640 --> 01:16:11.020
exciting as well. This season has that really

01:16:11.020 --> 01:16:14.800
strong mission statement. This is what we're

01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:17.619
trying to do. It's almost like a movie. You have

01:16:17.619 --> 01:16:21.060
a sense of what a high -level plot is just from

01:16:21.060 --> 01:16:23.520
that tagline. Oh, I love that second trailer,

01:16:23.560 --> 01:16:27.350
by the way, because... I would never have guessed

01:16:27.350 --> 01:16:30.970
in a million years that they'd use a Phil Collins

01:16:30.970 --> 01:16:34.289
track of all things, but it works so well and

01:16:34.289 --> 01:16:36.390
it ties thematically in so well because even,

01:16:36.489 --> 01:16:38.409
I went, I'd never heard that song before, but

01:16:38.409 --> 01:16:41.510
when I went and watched the video, did you do

01:16:41.510 --> 01:16:45.189
this? In the video, even he travels around the

01:16:45.189 --> 01:16:47.289
world, like he just keeps popping up in all these

01:16:47.289 --> 01:16:51.069
different, you know, landmarks, you know, from

01:16:51.069 --> 01:16:53.810
Tokyo to, and of course we've even had those

01:16:53.810 --> 01:16:57.159
little idents where, you know, a destroyed Eiffel

01:16:57.159 --> 01:16:58.979
Tower is flying through space and all that kind

01:16:58.979 --> 01:17:00.899
of stuff. So I feel there's something about,

01:17:01.060 --> 01:17:03.560
you know, there's something really cohesive about

01:17:03.560 --> 01:17:05.220
this marketing strategy where they're going,

01:17:05.260 --> 01:17:07.300
they're thinking about even the song choice,

01:17:07.500 --> 01:17:12.000
making it thematically relevant, but maybe subtly

01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:14.819
thematically relevant for anyone casual looking

01:17:14.819 --> 01:17:19.619
in. But yeah, I just think it feels kind of,

01:17:19.619 --> 01:17:22.760
I could be getting my hopes up here beyond what

01:17:22.760 --> 01:17:25.500
they should be, but it feels very... sure -footed

01:17:25.500 --> 01:17:28.899
in what it's doing I've almost begun to wonder

01:17:28.899 --> 01:17:37.279
is RTD sort of nearly trying to I know it might

01:17:37.279 --> 01:17:39.680
just literally be that like Disney really are

01:17:39.680 --> 01:17:41.340
sitting on their hands and he doesn't know what's

01:17:41.340 --> 01:17:42.960
going to happen and there could be a couple of

01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:44.460
years where they don't even know whether the

01:17:44.460 --> 01:17:47.840
show's coming back but I think he might even

01:17:47.840 --> 01:17:50.279
just be playing a bit of a game he knows what

01:17:50.279 --> 01:17:53.819
the plans are but he can't reveal what they might

01:17:53.819 --> 01:17:56.979
be until or the new format for the show or something

01:17:56.979 --> 01:17:59.840
until whatever happens happens it's all speculation

01:17:59.840 --> 01:18:04.899
but like i wonder as well whether he's trying

01:18:04.899 --> 01:18:08.500
to be clever and hedges bets with where season

01:18:08.500 --> 01:18:11.539
two is going because if this is some sort of

01:18:11.539 --> 01:18:16.789
multiverse reality war thing that it's all heading

01:18:16.789 --> 01:18:20.270
towards maybe the ending oh and that's the other

01:18:20.270 --> 01:18:22.130
thing we've heard we've heard about reshoots

01:18:22.130 --> 01:18:26.609
haven't we yes so and the reasons for those reshoots

01:18:26.609 --> 01:18:29.329
as well the rumored reasons oh well yeah that's

01:18:29.329 --> 01:18:32.829
the other thing about like um yeah is is the

01:18:32.829 --> 01:18:35.670
doctor gonna gonna regenerate and but but but

01:18:35.670 --> 01:18:39.050
in terms of like is it gonna is it gonna go on

01:18:39.050 --> 01:18:41.430
hiatus are disney going to continue is it going

01:18:41.430 --> 01:18:43.750
to go back to just being a bbc thing is it going

01:18:43.750 --> 01:18:48.100
to be a new maybe this reality war finale has

01:18:48.100 --> 01:18:52.579
some sort of um safety mechanism where they can

01:18:52.579 --> 01:18:57.640
reboot the show in like various different forms

01:18:57.640 --> 01:19:00.359
depending on where where like the production

01:19:00.359 --> 01:19:04.220
backstage stuff goes in future so like there's

01:19:04.220 --> 01:19:07.880
some big cliffhanger at the end of this season

01:19:07.880 --> 01:19:11.739
and then if disney continue we get like more

01:19:11.739 --> 01:19:14.760
in the same style but if it goes back to the

01:19:14.760 --> 01:19:19.699
bbc maybe we have some sort of reality changing

01:19:19.699 --> 01:19:23.619
event that justifies why we're shifting our scope

01:19:23.619 --> 01:19:28.659
and style back to where it used to be yeah i

01:19:28.659 --> 01:19:30.079
think you could be onto something there that

01:19:30.079 --> 01:19:35.279
sounds very um persuasive um yeah so but but

01:19:35.279 --> 01:19:38.340
another thing about that is say for instance

01:19:38.340 --> 01:19:42.380
that um Who very understandably at this point

01:19:42.380 --> 01:19:44.260
must be thinking, look, I have other things to

01:19:44.260 --> 01:19:46.579
be doing here. I'm a young up and coming actor

01:19:46.579 --> 01:19:48.800
and I can't sit around indefinitely waiting for

01:19:48.800 --> 01:19:55.260
contracts to be, you know, signed here. What

01:19:55.260 --> 01:19:59.300
if that being the case, RTD has said to him,

01:19:59.340 --> 01:20:03.439
look, hang fire here. We will accommodate you.

01:20:03.539 --> 01:20:06.439
Like say, say we do need to go to just like.

01:20:08.250 --> 01:20:10.949
two years of two specials per year or something

01:20:10.949 --> 01:20:13.550
like that. We can quickly shoot them. We can

01:20:13.550 --> 01:20:16.010
get them done. We can let you go off and do your

01:20:16.010 --> 01:20:19.170
Hollywood stuff and we'll still have you. I think

01:20:19.170 --> 01:20:22.510
that would be a very worthwhile compromise because

01:20:22.510 --> 01:20:25.949
he's so good, this guy. Like we want him for

01:20:25.949 --> 01:20:27.909
his life. Well, I would certainly like, I'd take

01:20:27.909 --> 01:20:30.289
10 years of shooting doctors. You know what I

01:20:30.289 --> 01:20:32.609
mean? I'd happily see him be the longest running

01:20:32.609 --> 01:20:35.930
we've had on TV. But, you know, realistically,

01:20:35.970 --> 01:20:38.409
that's not going to, that's not the modern. way

01:20:38.409 --> 01:20:44.270
it goes. If he stops after this, then he won't

01:20:44.270 --> 01:20:47.029
have done much more than Christopher Eccleston.

01:20:47.069 --> 01:20:53.170
No, that's true. He does say at the end of Empire

01:20:53.170 --> 01:20:56.529
of Death, he does say, I'm keeping this face.

01:20:56.670 --> 01:20:58.350
Don't you worry, I'm keeping this face for a

01:20:58.350 --> 01:21:02.670
long time. Which maybe in retrospect sounds like

01:21:02.670 --> 01:21:04.210
that moment that Colin Baker said he was going

01:21:04.210 --> 01:21:08.050
to do seven years. It could be a time of the

01:21:08.050 --> 01:21:11.090
doctor situation where we have a story where

01:21:11.090 --> 01:21:14.210
he spends thousands of years. That's true, yeah.

01:21:14.250 --> 01:21:20.390
The old prosthetics going, yeah. Okay, so anything

01:21:20.390 --> 01:21:23.489
else about season two before we wrap up? I'm

01:21:23.489 --> 01:21:26.689
just looking through the episode titles. Can

01:21:26.689 --> 01:21:28.750
we have good songs, please, for the Eurovisions?

01:21:29.229 --> 01:21:32.489
Oh, yeah, there's a Eurovision episode, which

01:21:32.489 --> 01:21:35.890
they've managed to sync to the... day i think

01:21:35.890 --> 01:21:38.149
and they talked about having like backup plans

01:21:38.149 --> 01:21:41.909
around marketing i'm presuming if if it didn't

01:21:41.909 --> 01:21:45.430
align precisely but i think they managed to have

01:21:45.430 --> 01:21:49.829
it go out on the day yeah that was a lucky break

01:21:49.829 --> 01:21:54.609
uh yeah so we've got robot revolution lux is

01:21:54.609 --> 01:21:57.569
the one that one of the ones i'm most interested

01:21:57.569 --> 01:21:59.930
in they they all look interesting like this whole

01:21:59.930 --> 01:22:03.600
like from the first trailer And again, trailers

01:22:03.600 --> 01:22:05.800
don't always accurately reflect what the actual

01:22:05.800 --> 01:22:10.159
thing is like. But both the BBC and Disney trailers

01:22:10.159 --> 01:22:13.319
I've really liked. And the first BBC one had

01:22:13.319 --> 01:22:20.899
this much kind of scarier atmosphere to it that

01:22:20.899 --> 01:22:23.359
felt, I don't know how to describe it, like less

01:22:23.359 --> 01:22:25.399
safe. Like they were like, OK, we've established

01:22:25.399 --> 01:22:28.920
what this new era is, who this new Doctor is.

01:22:29.500 --> 01:22:34.180
now we're going to do. And the 2006 series two

01:22:34.180 --> 01:22:38.100
was a bit like that. You had the impossible planet,

01:22:38.239 --> 01:22:41.920
Satan Pit. And I don't think you would have had

01:22:41.920 --> 01:22:44.840
that sort of story in season one. They needed

01:22:44.840 --> 01:22:47.779
to establish what this new Doctor Who is and

01:22:47.779 --> 01:22:51.319
then do those weirder, darker stories on that

01:22:51.319 --> 01:22:54.180
foundation. And this feels like a repeat of that,

01:22:54.260 --> 01:22:56.520
of like branching out a bit and doing stuff that's

01:22:56.520 --> 01:23:03.250
more ambitious. more weird interesting yeah there's

01:23:03.250 --> 01:23:05.750
i love what's really exciting is there's whole

01:23:05.750 --> 01:23:08.170
swathes of this season i think even more so than

01:23:08.170 --> 01:23:10.869
last time where you just don't know what like

01:23:10.869 --> 01:23:13.449
there's there's there's what looks like a sort

01:23:13.449 --> 01:23:16.850
of a 1960s kind of i don't know like a cafe or

01:23:16.850 --> 01:23:18.789
something like it's tilted sideways at one stage

01:23:18.789 --> 01:23:22.390
and it's got very you know it's got it's i don't

01:23:22.390 --> 01:23:24.289
know whether it's african -american or what or

01:23:24.289 --> 01:23:26.369
what the the vibe is there but there's there's

01:23:26.369 --> 01:23:28.510
there's a there's distinctive flavors to each

01:23:28.510 --> 01:23:32.489
episode that that uh wish episode looks i don't

01:23:32.489 --> 01:23:35.810
know very otherworldly or you know something

01:23:35.810 --> 01:23:37.689
like like out of mervyn peak or something it's

01:23:37.689 --> 01:23:42.829
got that kind of vibe about it um and Yeah, I

01:23:42.829 --> 01:23:46.329
mean, I think Lux is the one that I think could

01:23:46.329 --> 01:23:50.689
on its face be the most sort of like, okay, here's

01:23:50.689 --> 01:23:54.510
our sort of equivalent gimmick to last year's.

01:23:56.170 --> 01:23:58.529
It's a pretty much identical scene of them getting

01:23:58.529 --> 01:24:00.810
dressed. That's true as well. So there's speculation

01:24:00.810 --> 01:24:03.149
about whether that's intentional, isn't there?

01:24:03.430 --> 01:24:07.400
Because it's so shot for shot the same. that

01:24:07.400 --> 01:24:10.020
it's some people are going you know weaponizing

01:24:10.020 --> 01:24:11.979
that and going this is RTD finally out of ideas

01:24:11.979 --> 01:24:14.239
and then some people are going well hold on what

01:24:14.239 --> 01:24:17.880
if this means something um you know that that

01:24:17.880 --> 01:24:20.260
they're that they're making that so overtly shot

01:24:20.260 --> 01:24:23.199
for shot the same I don't know um actually just

01:24:23.199 --> 01:24:25.239
on that subject just just and I'll try and make

01:24:25.239 --> 01:24:27.939
this point as quickly as possible but it's been

01:24:27.939 --> 01:24:31.699
on my mind right there's been a lot of online

01:24:31.699 --> 01:24:35.159
negativity about the show from certain quarters,

01:24:35.340 --> 01:24:37.579
right? And they seem to be attacking on every

01:24:37.579 --> 01:24:40.579
front. The primary one being that it's supposedly

01:24:40.579 --> 01:24:43.739
woke and so on. And I know it's like a case plus

01:24:43.739 --> 01:24:47.500
a change on that one, right? But the thought

01:24:47.500 --> 01:24:51.539
struck me the other day. I wondered if you took

01:24:51.539 --> 01:24:54.279
last season, the season we just spoke about,

01:24:54.359 --> 01:24:58.119
right? And somehow through some timey -wimey

01:24:58.119 --> 01:25:00.960
mechanics, you could... Take that and swap it

01:25:00.960 --> 01:25:03.399
and put it into 2005 as the first season we had

01:25:03.399 --> 01:25:06.920
and put 2005 season here. You know, just swap

01:25:06.920 --> 01:25:10.060
the bookends around completely. The same people

01:25:10.060 --> 01:25:13.399
would probably be waxing lyrical about what we

01:25:13.399 --> 01:25:16.720
had in the first year and say that this year

01:25:16.720 --> 01:25:19.220
is rubbish. And it's not the show that's changed.

01:25:19.420 --> 01:25:21.960
It's them. They've got older. Yeah, I think it's

01:25:21.960 --> 01:25:24.439
totally the cultural context. It's the same thing

01:25:24.439 --> 01:25:27.520
with like a lot of anti -trans stuff at the moment.

01:25:27.600 --> 01:25:30.649
Like you used to have... trans people on shows

01:25:30.649 --> 01:25:34.710
like big brother and it it wasn't an issue it's

01:25:34.710 --> 01:25:37.829
only like in the recent you know last few years

01:25:37.829 --> 01:25:42.289
where that's has become a massive issue for people

01:25:42.289 --> 01:25:44.750
oh for sure i mean you've got you've definitely

01:25:44.750 --> 01:25:46.729
got the transphobes and the racists and so on

01:25:46.729 --> 01:25:48.930
but like let's put down to one side right there's

01:25:48.930 --> 01:25:52.579
still a critical mass and thankfully not the

01:25:52.579 --> 01:25:55.180
majority but but a very loud minority that's

01:25:55.180 --> 01:25:57.300
out there and just just doctor who's not what

01:25:57.300 --> 01:25:59.720
it used to be it's gotten rubbish the storytellers

01:25:59.720 --> 01:26:01.479
and this show needs to be cancelled and they're

01:26:01.479 --> 01:26:04.119
they sound angry and bitter and i think what

01:26:04.119 --> 01:26:05.920
they're angry and bitter about is i think this

01:26:05.920 --> 01:26:08.520
is history repeating because you remember somewhere

01:26:08.520 --> 01:26:11.899
around like the early 80s fandom began to sort

01:26:11.899 --> 01:26:14.090
of eat its own tail a bit and just get a bit

01:26:14.090 --> 01:26:17.850
poisonous and call for RTD to be sacked. I think

01:26:17.850 --> 01:26:20.029
we're sort of there again with the people that

01:26:20.029 --> 01:26:23.289
came young to the revival and are now, you know,

01:26:23.289 --> 01:26:25.489
they've 20 years on the clock since then and

01:26:25.489 --> 01:26:29.350
life has been maybe a bit unkind to them and

01:26:29.350 --> 01:26:33.609
they're just, the show isn't giving them, the

01:26:33.609 --> 01:26:37.699
show isn't a sort of an all. an all fixing salve

01:26:37.699 --> 01:26:40.000
for them. You know, it's, it can only pull them

01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:42.159
out of their day, their, their work a day lives

01:26:42.159 --> 01:26:44.739
for, for 45 minutes. And then they have to go

01:26:44.739 --> 01:26:46.840
back. Do you know what I mean? And they just,

01:26:46.960 --> 01:26:48.619
I think some people just need to try a bit harder

01:26:48.619 --> 01:26:51.140
to reaccess their inner child and still see that

01:26:51.140 --> 01:26:54.180
it's, it's hard. The show's heart is still the

01:26:54.180 --> 01:26:56.680
same and it's something to still be hugely proud

01:26:56.680 --> 01:27:01.939
of. That's, we probably haven't got time to go

01:27:01.939 --> 01:27:03.819
into it now, but like, that's just made me think

01:27:03.819 --> 01:27:07.109
of something else, which is, like i wonder how

01:27:07.109 --> 01:27:11.909
much this new show is landing with like children

01:27:11.909 --> 01:27:17.729
and teenagers who's i think there's been like

01:27:17.729 --> 01:27:20.909
some stats and surveys on this i haven't really

01:27:20.909 --> 01:27:23.449
looked into them into that much detail but my

01:27:23.449 --> 01:27:28.369
instinct and my sense is that it's not it's nowhere

01:27:28.369 --> 01:27:33.939
near like the impact of 2005 It really landed

01:27:33.939 --> 01:27:36.359
with the audience that it was meant to. And those

01:27:36.359 --> 01:27:38.460
people, like you say, have stayed with it for

01:27:38.460 --> 01:27:41.079
a couple of decades. Although, interestingly,

01:27:41.500 --> 01:27:44.840
I think one of the stats we did hear about, wasn't

01:27:44.840 --> 01:27:46.939
it, was that, I mean, this may have just been

01:27:46.939 --> 01:27:49.260
an attempt at spin, you know, pulling the positives

01:27:49.260 --> 01:27:53.939
out of whatever data points they did have. But

01:27:53.939 --> 01:27:56.560
it was supposedly the case that for BBC One anyway,

01:27:56.899 --> 01:28:00.399
Doctor Who is the youngest skewing. That's true.

01:28:02.160 --> 01:28:05.060
I don't want to be negative, but the counter

01:28:05.060 --> 01:28:08.800
argument would be it doesn't have loads of competition

01:28:08.800 --> 01:28:12.739
on BBC for what else is there that's going to

01:28:12.739 --> 01:28:14.560
compete with it. And maybe that's because the

01:28:14.560 --> 01:28:18.340
landscape is not in a great position in terms

01:28:18.340 --> 01:28:22.180
of BBC produced sci -fi and fantasy. And again,

01:28:22.260 --> 01:28:24.579
a couple of decades ago, Doctor Who seemed to

01:28:24.579 --> 01:28:26.479
be prompting a bit of a resurgence of that. You

01:28:26.479 --> 01:28:31.060
had Merlin and other bits and pieces that were

01:28:31.060 --> 01:28:36.270
sort of... jumping on the excitement that Doctor

01:28:36.270 --> 01:28:39.529
Who is generating. And maybe what we need to

01:28:39.529 --> 01:28:41.890
hope for here is that instead of it being 1989

01:28:41.890 --> 01:28:45.510
all over again, what we've got is 1969. You know

01:28:45.510 --> 01:28:47.729
that point at which the BBC were sort of going,

01:28:47.890 --> 01:28:50.510
did we make any more of this? And then they went,

01:28:50.590 --> 01:28:54.000
can you think of anything that's... Got to do

01:28:54.000 --> 01:28:56.680
this better than it's already been done. All

01:28:56.680 --> 01:29:00.140
right, give it another run. So I want to look

01:29:00.140 --> 01:29:02.739
back on when the end of season two is done, or

01:29:02.739 --> 01:29:05.100
maybe when War Between Land and the Sea is done

01:29:05.100 --> 01:29:07.520
as well. And we talked about this in one of our

01:29:07.520 --> 01:29:11.300
previous episodes, but going into this new, new

01:29:11.300 --> 01:29:17.140
era, I was expecting more. radical reinvention

01:29:17.140 --> 01:29:18.779
and revolution. I don't know what that looks

01:29:18.779 --> 01:29:22.420
like. I have no idea what that would be. But

01:29:22.420 --> 01:29:26.020
I was expecting something, with all the talk

01:29:26.020 --> 01:29:28.439
of it being a new era, I was expecting a bigger

01:29:28.439 --> 01:29:30.539
departure from what we had before. And I was

01:29:30.539 --> 01:29:32.479
up for that. I loved trying something new and

01:29:32.479 --> 01:29:35.399
different. And it's been more of an evolution

01:29:35.399 --> 01:29:39.319
rather than that revolution I was being or expecting.

01:29:40.109 --> 01:29:41.850
And part of that is Russell T. Davis himself,

01:29:42.010 --> 01:29:44.250
who's brilliant at talking things up, but he

01:29:44.250 --> 01:29:46.670
can sometimes talk himself up onto a ledge, you

01:29:46.670 --> 01:29:49.550
know. But what he did was he was saying, look,

01:29:49.630 --> 01:29:51.569
I'm writing stuff that this show has never, ever

01:29:51.569 --> 01:29:53.489
attempted before. And I was thinking, wow, what

01:29:53.489 --> 01:29:56.470
could that be? It's so out of the box here. And

01:29:56.470 --> 01:29:58.909
one of the things that came to mind to me as

01:29:58.909 --> 01:30:02.189
a concept that they, you know, maybe there's

01:30:02.189 --> 01:30:05.489
just two out there, but I was envisaging things

01:30:05.489 --> 01:30:08.939
like. it's going to start off as a series where

01:30:08.939 --> 01:30:12.380
there's five people and one of them is the Doctor

01:30:12.380 --> 01:30:13.920
but they don't know it and they have to go on

01:30:13.920 --> 01:30:16.260
a quest and one of them is going to turn out

01:30:16.260 --> 01:30:17.899
to be the Doctor and they know that's going to

01:30:17.899 --> 01:30:19.300
be one of them but they don't yet. Do you know

01:30:19.300 --> 01:30:20.779
what I mean? It could be that sort of thing where

01:30:20.779 --> 01:30:22.640
you only find out at the end of the season which

01:30:22.640 --> 01:30:26.100
of these apparent humans is actually the person

01:30:26.100 --> 01:30:30.159
who's going to become or re -become the Doctor

01:30:30.159 --> 01:30:31.920
or something like that. That would be a truly

01:30:31.920 --> 01:30:34.810
revolutionary thing. So that would maybe capture

01:30:34.810 --> 01:30:37.390
a young demographic in a way that the show never

01:30:37.390 --> 01:30:40.590
has before. So this would be like a, we should

01:30:40.590 --> 01:30:42.149
probably wrap up soon, but that's given me like

01:30:42.149 --> 01:30:44.170
an idea about a discussion we can have in future.

01:30:44.270 --> 01:30:47.229
Like maybe when series two is done and we could

01:30:47.229 --> 01:30:49.369
think, okay, where should Doctor Who go next?

01:30:49.510 --> 01:30:52.170
Do you remember that Doctor Who magazine article

01:30:52.170 --> 01:30:54.770
in the wilderness years? I do, with the little

01:30:54.770 --> 01:30:58.220
legal people and all in it. Was it called Let

01:30:58.220 --> 01:30:59.380
Beers and Star Wars? We're Going to Be Bigger

01:30:59.380 --> 01:31:01.779
Than Star Wars, it was called. And it was like

01:31:01.779 --> 01:31:06.340
all of those new adventures authors and people

01:31:06.340 --> 01:31:09.079
doing their pictures for what Doctor Who should

01:31:09.079 --> 01:31:14.560
be. Russell T. Davis and actually Stephen Moffat

01:31:14.560 --> 01:31:18.859
and I think Gatiss were in there. Which one of

01:31:18.859 --> 01:31:20.880
them? I think it was RTD who said the way he

01:31:20.880 --> 01:31:22.600
would do it. This was him talking then and it

01:31:22.600 --> 01:31:24.659
shows you how much his thoughts evolve on these

01:31:24.659 --> 01:31:27.149
things over years. But he was talking then about

01:31:27.149 --> 01:31:29.710
how he would bring it back and call it Doctor

01:31:29.710 --> 01:31:34.369
Who 2000 and have the Doctor work in a bookshop

01:31:34.369 --> 01:31:36.050
somewhere in a little village. And then over

01:31:36.050 --> 01:31:38.189
time, mysteries would be brought to his door

01:31:38.189 --> 01:31:40.229
and there'd be a little police box parked somewhere

01:31:40.229 --> 01:31:42.090
in the village green or something that doesn't

01:31:42.090 --> 01:31:45.390
have any significance until episode six or something.

01:31:45.970 --> 01:31:47.850
I think that's the sort of stuff he was saying.

01:31:48.029 --> 01:31:51.170
And then when we, yeah. That's interesting because

01:31:51.170 --> 01:31:54.949
I think like... 2005 we were just at the point

01:31:54.949 --> 01:31:59.170
where the mill was making like you know acceptable

01:31:59.170 --> 01:32:03.930
cgi within reach so maybe like late 90s russell

01:32:03.930 --> 01:32:07.470
t davies wasn't thinking that that was on the

01:32:07.470 --> 01:32:09.890
table so he was thinking okay how do we make

01:32:09.890 --> 01:32:12.630
doctor who effectively in the constraints of

01:32:12.630 --> 01:32:17.270
bbc budgets and like you said 1969 1970 maybe

01:32:17.270 --> 01:32:20.300
that sort of thinking was on his on his mind

01:32:20.300 --> 01:32:23.439
at that point like how to just shift the whole

01:32:23.439 --> 01:32:26.500
setup of the show to do something cool within

01:32:26.500 --> 01:32:30.979
those constraints um but yeah let's but one one

01:32:30.979 --> 01:32:32.680
final thing i just want to say is you mentioned

01:32:32.680 --> 01:32:34.760
the land between the war and the sea before and

01:32:34.760 --> 01:32:38.039
the one thing that gives me hope that you know

01:32:38.039 --> 01:32:40.779
the reality war is not doctor who's final television

01:32:40.779 --> 01:32:43.920
episode for you know a decade or something is

01:32:43.920 --> 01:32:48.529
that uh or forever is that um I just don't see

01:32:48.529 --> 01:32:52.149
the BBC putting out as its final ever thing of

01:32:52.149 --> 01:32:55.250
the Hooniverse a spin -off about the sea levels.

01:32:55.369 --> 01:32:58.770
I just can't conceive that that's how you bookend

01:32:58.770 --> 01:33:02.170
things. So there'll be at least one more thing.

01:33:02.829 --> 01:33:05.510
Well, maybe I'm being overly optimistic there,

01:33:05.569 --> 01:33:08.770
but I kind of do trust that RTD, if anyone can

01:33:08.770 --> 01:33:12.729
work miracles and turn this ship around in terms

01:33:12.729 --> 01:33:16.590
of the possible decline of popularity and maybe...

01:33:16.880 --> 01:33:19.079
genuinely blindside people with something extraordinary

01:33:19.079 --> 01:33:22.699
here um i think he's capable of it i think he's

01:33:22.699 --> 01:33:26.800
still capable of it yeah all right so i think

01:33:26.800 --> 01:33:30.079
we're both going into season two with our hopes

01:33:30.079 --> 01:33:35.199
and some excitement yeah and yeah we're expecting

01:33:35.199 --> 01:33:38.920
to do like more instant reactions on the podcast

01:33:38.920 --> 01:33:40.939
as we go through the season and i think it'll

01:33:40.939 --> 01:33:43.020
be great to get together again afterwards for

01:33:43.020 --> 01:33:46.939
another retrospective once once season two is

01:33:46.939 --> 01:33:51.220
done. But any final thoughts before we wrap up?

01:33:51.680 --> 01:33:55.039
No, I think that's it for me. We've done that

01:33:55.039 --> 01:33:58.159
one. We've covered that pretty thoroughly. I

01:33:58.159 --> 01:34:00.819
think so. And I think these chats have helped

01:34:00.819 --> 01:34:08.279
me to see the good stuff in season one that I

01:34:08.279 --> 01:34:09.939
might have missed because of focusing on the

01:34:09.939 --> 01:34:13.180
bits that I just didn't. fall within my expectations

01:34:13.180 --> 01:34:15.739
or do exactly what i wanted them to there's so

01:34:15.739 --> 01:34:18.020
much good stuff for me in the middle of that

01:34:18.020 --> 01:34:23.579
series um that i think really stands up and is

01:34:23.579 --> 01:34:26.960
worthwhile uh so yeah i've really enjoyed going

01:34:26.960 --> 01:34:29.199
back over it yeah me too i've really enjoyed

01:34:29.199 --> 01:34:34.420
this So we'll leave it there. And yeah, as I

01:34:34.420 --> 01:34:37.859
said, we'll be back with reactions for season

01:34:37.859 --> 01:34:42.000
two. But otherwise, thanks very much, Mark, for

01:34:42.000 --> 01:34:45.039
joining me. Well, thank you. It's been fun. And

01:34:45.039 --> 01:34:48.500
we will see you soon. Goodbye. Bye.