You're listening to a podcast of Spurious Morality.
And welcome to our third episode, looking back
at the second RTD era. Last time we got up to
73 yards, and we'll be picking up today with
the second half of Season 1, and also the special
Joy to the World. My name's Mansor, I'm joined
again by Mark to run through these. Hello. Yeah,
shall we jump straight in? Oh, and we'll also
do a little bit of looking forward to season
two at the end, if we get time. Right, so second
half of season one starts off with Dot and Bubble.
This was definitely one of my favourites of the
season. Where did it rank for you? Very highly,
yeah. I'd say this and 73 yards and boom are
kind of the top -ranking ones for me. Well, and
joy to the world when we get there. But, yeah,
in terms of the overall main season, this is
sort of in the kind of top three, really. Yeah,
definitely. Same for me. it's like like a lot
of Doctor Who you can see its roots in other
things and I think Russell T Davies spoke quite
explicitly about Black Mirror I'm trying to think
back to my interviews and things that he did
at the time but yeah you can see its connection
to other stuff but also like you know just even
down to the the monster designs and things there's
a lot of like very Doctor Who feel to it so it
feels like it's part of this world it doesn't
just feel like a rip -off of like other stuff
um and yeah i do think it was unfortunate that
we had so many dr light episodes in such a short
run when it was shooting at was first season
but they made the best of this one i think we
might have said before that the doctor and ruby
might not have been uh the actors might not have
been pulled in for as many filming days but they
feel very present because they're always popping
up on these on these screens during the episode
um yeah what was it what do you think what is
it about this that made it sort of further up
the rankings for both of us i think it's it's
the central conceit and how it's delivered i
i I had a bit of an interesting sort of experience
of this one because I had heard sometime ahead
of the season starting, and this is something
I occasionally, you know, I have no one to blame
except myself on this front. But occasionally
a spoiler will be put in front of me and I can't
resist. And in this particular instance, it came
via another podcast, which has a pretty good
track record of, not a perfect track record,
but a pretty good track record of being quite
close to the grapevine and revealing things in
advance. And so at my own risk, I listened to
this thing and they said that this episode would
feature... What I'd heard by this podcast was
that the story would involve the doctor arriving
back in a colony he'd originally been to as the
second doctor. And they remembered him having
saved them. He was a very celebrated character.
And that he would end up in a situation where
he was helping them out, but from a remote location
where they couldn't see him. And he was sort
of talking them through the crisis. And then
what would happen at the end would be, he would
be revealed to them as, you know, the now black
presenting, well, the black doctor that he now
is. And their racism would suddenly be revealed
in this moment and they would become hostile
to him. So you can see that that wasn't too far
wide of the mark in terms of what was ultimately
broadcast. Now, because I'd heard that. It meant
that when it came to watching it, even when I
saw the next time trailer for it, I could see
the sea of white faces. And I thought that rumor,
that inside information was correct. But it also
meant that I never got to put myself to the test
insofar as I don't know had I not heard at what
point I would have noticed that it was an entirely
white colony. It's an interesting one because
they have some interesting, you know, you're
so focused, I think, on the dynamics of the character
and the tensions in the situation and the eccentricities
of this sort of social media world that you're
not necessarily thinking about who looks a certain
way, apart from the fact that they're all wearing
pastel colours or whatever it is. And, you know,
so, yeah, I will never know what, At what point,
if at all, I would have twigged what was going
on there. There are some subtle tells all the
way through, you know, things that Lindy says
to and about the Doctor, which... Yeah, when
you re -watch it. Yeah, when you re -watch it,
you certainly spot them a lot more. You know,
they jump out at you, whereas on first watch,
they just hit you with a kind of a... They hit
the ear slightly wrong, maybe, but you don't
quite fully consciously process it, and it's
quite clever in that respect. um you know some
of the things she says for instance um uh you
know how did you get in here or or um you know
is is this something to do with you when stuff
starts going wrong you know those kind of little
comments and and stuff about oh i can't wait
until you're disciplined afterwards and but that
you know until until you really get to that moment
of reveal um it's not very clear what that's
all about other than just her being petulant
you know because she could come across that way
anyway she's quite a sort of bratty character
really um anyway and some of it's quite uh subtle
facial expressions as well like the first time
he pops up and she dismisses or blocks or swipes
him away there's this slight you know what you
think is just a sort of petulant look of annoyance
of like oh who's this person who's who's bothering
me that you know who's made that cold call but
then in hindsight that look of disgust takes
on well yeah it comes across to me more as a
look of disgust rather than annoyance when when
she just does this like little sort of grimace
as she's um swiping the doctor's screen away
and yeah there's loads of little things like
that and it gets less subtle as it goes on closer
to the reveal but right at the end when they're
talking about voodoo and all of that just before
the twist but i think it's it it's one of those
twists that doesn't because there's certain types
of twist where on a re -watch it sort of saps
the excitement out of it because it's like oh
i i you know i know what's what's going to happen
here but this is one of those examples where
re -watching it is actually quite rewarding because
you're picking up on these things and seeing
it in a different way and almost watching a different
episode with that with that knowledge of what's
coming at the end Yeah, absolutely. Another thing
about this one is, you know, that's a heck of
a first day in the office for Nshudi, isn't it,
to come in and his first scene be that one where
it is that culminating scene where he fully processes
what's going on and has that incredible reaction
to it. It's very powerful. It's hugely uncomfortable.
And it's... you know he he's he's amazing in
that scene but it was a heck of an ask for him
to come in on day one and just write this is
what you're doing um yeah so that was a baptism
of fire right there and i don't want to um sort
of like just make sort of unfable comparisons
to the chibnall era but i think the fact that
you have a black doctor the fact that you're
doing something with that and acknowledging it
and and doing a story like this i know jody's
era had bits of that like in the witch finders
and other stories um like gender is mentioned
but uh most of the time it's sort of it's sort
of brushed off and and maybe that's right to
like get on with telling a story but i would
have liked a bit more of that in 13th doctor
zero what does it mean to be a woman in history
and what is that sometimes mean. And another
interesting dimension to think about that, you
know, adjacent to all of that is, say it had,
you know, maybe it's in my mind more because
I was originally set up to expect that, you know,
they had this sort of historical memory of, you
know, a white doctor, you know, like Patrick
Troughton or somebody having come and saved the
colony before. But if you think about it, like
there could be any number of those sorts of colonies
that we saw in particularly the 60s or whatever,
the Macra Terror or something like that, where
a white -faced doctor shows up to, you know,
a pretty much white cast, you know, and then
they happily resolve things. He's waved off with
a cheery goodbye. And you might, one or two of
those colonies may have shared, you know, these
racist values. We just don't know. And the doctor
would never have known. And it's unsettling to
think, do you know what I mean? That the characters,
maybe guest characters we grew to like or enjoy
in that particular adventure could have held
these sort of, you know, it could have been a
widely spread belief amongst their people, but
it just never came up in the story. And so this
really puts that front and centre and sort of
makes you think about that kind of... I mean,
hopefully there aren't too many colonies like
that in the far future because it's a bit dispiriting.
But I guess it's one of those lessons of history
that if you're not careful. Oh, and that's one
thing because one of those things that RTD likes
to do is to present you with a thing and say,
look, I'm not saying that this is a negative.
It's actually maybe a real positive for the future.
Like, for instance, in this case, it's the two
-hour working week. And that two -hour working
week frees up so much. I think it's a logical.
path of progression that society will eventually
get to something like that because there'll be
more and more technological assistance and things
and so people will only work for less and less
but less and less time in the future but the
point I'm making I suppose is what he's saying
is he's not inclined to be negative about these
things like he wouldn't sort of wag his finger
about people watching too much television he
sees the virtue of the public discourse in television
and things like that Here, the equivalent of
that is to say, look, the two -hour working week
is a potentially very positive thing, but it's
a double -edged sword because as much as it frees
up time for creativity and hobbies and all the
rest of it and meaningful social engagement,
it also maybe presents a time in which conspiracy
theories and paranoia can fester and you need
to be really careful about what you do. do with
your time in this in this world of of you know
potential almost full -time leisure do you know
what i mean it's so it's like don't don't fill
your time with um prejudice um i guess it's kind
of one of those lessons for the future you know
well ahead of that that envisaged future if you
see what i mean yeah that's that's interesting
about the two hour working day because i i didn't
take it that way i took it more as because i
felt you never get an impression that they're
doing anything useful because i feel like if
you were i feel like if you were doing like a
story that's set in the future where they have
like employment um law and practices advanced
to the point where you can do a useful day's
work in two hours um you'd be doing like two
quite intense hours of high value work but it
feels like these people are just like sat at
desks doing busy work what's of ambiguous busy
work for a couple of hours that's because they're
on their their dot and bubble while they while
they're doing that work as well aren't they so
that's true yes i i never got the feeling that
they were like going in and doing this you know
sort of intensive uh high value two hours of
work um but uh but yeah that's a good point about
the downtime that it creates as well and so let's
talk about before we move on i think we should
talk about lindsey and pepper bean though like
this the central character who with it being
doctor and companion light who's our main focus
for most of the episode um i think there's a
lot of interesting stuff there with subverting
this that sort of when it starts off you expect
that trope of here's this person who's um you
know being taken on this like heroic journey
to move from someone who's quite passive and
stuck and then starts to take on traits of the
doctor and becomes more active and becomes a
hero and then there's a complete subversion or
rug pull around that uh well i guess it's with
rookie september isn't it but that's is that
the moment or is that's a turning point yeah
i mean um that that's the moment when he's first
introduced he's sort of i think you're absolutely
right it sort of leans in momentarily into that
trope of oh he's going to open her eyes to these
other possibilities of see the world and all
that doctor basically yeah and of course we don't
know how far his individualism extended in the
end. Was he the only non -racist on the planet?
And probably not, actually. He was probably just,
in that respect, as bad as the rest of them,
but just a bit more of an individualist in terms
of what he did with his time. But, yeah, I actually
have to be careful how I put this, because obviously
her views turn out to be reprehensible, like
the rest of them, and she becomes very unlikable
for that reason. But I did think, okay, as far
as I can, this was in the early stages of the
episode, as far as, you know, even though I could
see she was petulant and kind of snappy and all
these things, there was nevertheless something
likeably kind of quirky about her. And I just,
I kind of hoped for her that she would go on
that journey you're talking about. And I do wonder,
there's... I'm thinking back, for instance, to
a character like Novice Haim, who, you know,
comes back having been on a sort of an unseen
redemptive arc in the meantime when the Doctor
reconnects and a previous villain has become
somebody reformed or, you know, considerably
more matured in terms of how they see the world
and how much they want to help. And I wonder,
is there a potential redemptive path and even
a possible return on the cards for somebody like
Mindy? Now, she does have, you know, when they
part company at the end there and she gives him
that very cold, just narcissistically cool stare
from the boat and they make eye contact. There
doesn't seem to be any prospect of that. I was
wondering about that this time, actually, because,
again, I might be imagining it, but I was imagining
just in her expression, just a little bit of
regret, a little bit of doubt. the way she's
looking back like obviously on the surface there's
disdain and disgust but the way that like why
doesn't he just if if she was so like steeped
in those racist attitudes that she had like zero
regard for the doctor would she have said thank
you like and would she have held his gaze wouldn't
she have just like turned away and just sort
of talking to her friends about where they were
going Yeah, I guess there is a sort of a bit
of an ambiguity to some of that, but it does.
I mean, oddly enough, I had the reverse this
time. Having seen a bit more of what you're talking
about first timeline, I think I looked at it
this time and thought it was it just felt a bit
harder. You know, it just felt a bit. Yeah, a
bit. leaning towards the possibility of redemption
and it was just it was almost a look of just
narcissistic defiance and that conceding of the
thank you was nearly a point of social etiquette
in the same way as you know back in the day somebody
might have talked to the household help with
a sort of surface thank you but absolutely still
this sort of two tier thank you because she's
intelligent enough to be aware that he has probably
helped save her life and it's like only with
that sort of extraordinary circumstance that
she can bring herself to talk to him face to
face yeah it's very much a I suppose I'd better
thank you kind of thing you know rather than
a that's as close as she can get but then of
course she is being witnessed by her peers there
and so possibly it's an interesting one just
one thing while it's in my head before we move
on because it could be easily overlooked, a small
production thing here. The set design I thought
was clever because the way they've done it, they
have these sort of like very quite relatively
nondescript like walls and things. So as she's
walking around, as she's being guided around
and trying to walk unaided for the first time
without the aid of the bubble. you see these
walls and it's like just literally like a two
-tone thing, beige at the bottom or whatever,
and a primary color like a blue or a green or
something at the top. And it's really there just,
it's all just about something to impinge upon
your peripheral awareness and say, you know,
okay, if the wall's orange, I'm on level two
or whatever, you know what I mean? You don't
have to think about it, but there's certainly
no, you know, there's nothing more finessed than
that. There would be no wall art or anything.
You know, it's not a world. that needs that because
it's just purely about these people that live
inside the bubble 97 of the time and um no one's
going to see yeah sculptures or so i like that
i like that thing which i only really took on
board this time watching it you know little um
set choices and things really lean into that
whole world anyway yeah we probably say lots
more about that episode but let's let's move
on to to rogue and this is one that i would say
was an episode i enjoyed like i placed it well
above space babies in terms of rankings um it
was great to see in general farmer like i said
as a villain um and uh and it was cool to see
the Doctor having a romantic relationship that's
not a heterosexual one and that just being played
in the same way as it was in Girl in the Fireplace
and just not made a big thing of. Beyond that
though, and I was really surprised with this
one because this one had a guest writer I think,
but maybe out of... Well, maybe this and Space
Babies, maybe the finale as well. These were
the episodes that felt the most like a bit of
a rerun of what we'd had before. And that surprised
me with this one in particular, having a guest
writer, that this felt like a lot of the stuff
we'd seen before in the first RTD era. So my
feeling was, decent episode, not a bad one. but
it's never going to be at the top of my list.
There's nothing that makes it really extraordinary
or stand out for me. It's just very solid. What
were your impressions of this one? Similar. It's
one of those things where, yeah, in terms of,
there's some clever stuff going on in it. I think
it might have been a 7 out of 10 -ish type of
episode for me, were it not for the fact that
that kind of charismatic pairing up of the Doctor
and Rogue really pulls the spotlight. It's so
well done. There's just this real... It's interesting
because I've heard one or two other podcasts
suggest there was no chemistry between them,
and I'm thinking... Are you blind? Because it's
there in spades as far as I can see. But yeah,
you know, that moment where they dance and the
lights come down and everything, that's actually
in some ways, it's one of the episodes that most
subtly, because it's sort of doing so much and
you're sort of steeped in this world of Bridgerton
and everything, you can almost... was i thinking
about it failed to notice that here again are
these sort of like meta i mean obviously bridgeton
is a very meta thing to throw in there and the
cosplay idea and everything cosplaying history
but like the fact that you know you're watching
something that's either metaphor or actuality
in terms of the lights coming right down and
those two being in the center of the dance floor
and if we are you know and i know we'll talk
about it i'm sure towards the end again if there's
still a possibility that the meta thing could
be could be in the mix there's something quite
quite interesting um i think just there's some
beautiful visuals in this i think i think um
all that stuff you know where they shoot outside
in the moonlight and and the little tardis park
next to the the the big tree and you've got the
giant spaceship i love just just in terms of
a sort of a mood i really like it i'm i was a
bit less enamored of the um the children themselves
in terms of just like, I don't know, it's quite
broad, isn't it? But then it's, it's fun too.
So, you know, it's, and then the business at
the end with the, the triforce. Oh, this is,
of course, this, this, this has to be mentioned
when the, when the triforce was first introduced
and the doctor is trying to get out of that situation
after he's been dancing to Kylie Minogue and
all the rest of it. We have the iconic Richard
E. Grant appear and, you know, that was an interesting
moment. That was one of the most notable bits
for me. Yeah. So it's either just playfulness
or, again, they're suggesting something of the,
you know, the expanded universe, the Doctor Who
multiverse or something. It could be just...
toying with the fans a little bit. It could just
be having a bit of fun or feeding things in.
Yeah, I think this was just a musical choice,
but another thing you could add to that meta
list is that thing about using modern songs,
but doing them in a period style, like some of
the music during the dance scenes. I can't remember
which songs it were, but... Yeah, we had Lady
Gaga towards the end, didn't we? and correct
me if I'm wrong because I'm not an expert but
Bridgerton itself does that doesn't it it takes
it's probably a reference to that yeah yeah yeah
but I agree about Rogue and the chemistry I could
easily you know I'm not it's another question
about whether the actor would be available but
I could easily see the character Rogue being
this semi -regular river type character over
the next few years coming back. Because it felt
to me like it was, you know, he disappears at
the end, but it felt like it was almost being
set up for a return or the possibility of a return.
Yeah, like the new Captain Jack almost. It didn't
feel, yeah, there was a lot of Captain Jack in
him as well, but yeah, kind of mixed between
Jack and River possibly. Obviously, it's not
a historical figure, but it didn't feel as final
and tragic as Girl in the Fireplace, where this
is a finite thing and the tragedy is that she's
died and she's gone. This felt just more like
they've been separated, possibly temporarily.
Yeah, he throws out that... find me challenge
to him at the end and even though the doctor
does say look you know there are there are many
there are as many parallel dimensions as grains
of sand in the universe sort of thing um you
know that yeah if the writers want if the writers
have seen the potential for more there and they
will have done um that is on the cards you know
jumping ahead to season two but like our final
finale for season two is called the reality war
so Ah, well, there you go. So that somebody could
step through in the right circumstances. That's
right. Yeah, so I thought it was, it's just one
of those ones you can really steep yourself into
the atmosphere of. And it kind of hits the doctor
quite emotionally hard at the end. You know,
he is affected by it. in a way you know it's
good that ruby makes him stop at the end and
have that hug because he's he's ready to rattle
on to the next thing which is him almost reverting
back to old habits and forgetting about you know
being the post therapy doctor there for a minute
she has to pull him back into that uh um that
mode his his more um his more sort of self -aware
motive i think that's that's that's an interesting
thing actually like maybe like with this whole
retrospective that we've done We went into this
era with that notion of this is the doctor who's
gone through therapy. That's why he's in touch
with his emotions. It's not entirely consistent.
There are moments where there's a lot of that
old sort of repression or difficulty of dealing
with emotions that is still there. He's not a
completely different character. Maybe this is
one of those moments that shows that. He does
sometimes react in the way that he would have
done in previous incarnations. But yeah, so I
was just bringing up the season two titles, but
maybe we can come on to those once we've gotten
through the remaining episodes. But shall we
move on to our two -part finale for this season?
Yes, let's do that. Now, I didn't have time to
rewatch both of these, but I rewatched Empire
of Death. And just like a little structural thing
that I felt at the time, I think, is it almost
feels like the episode break comes 15 minutes
into Empire of Death, because that's the big
time jump when, you know, time's moved on and
we pick things up again. And that felt very much
like the space between... um like a more fat
two -parter where you'd have like a big universe
changing thing in the penultimate episode jump
a few months forward and then pick up in the
finale so this i felt like this maybe it was
just to do with running time so the structure
of this two -parter was a bit a bit off for me
um and i'll very very briefly sort of mention
sort of my feelings because i think they're quite
common ones and then i'll hand over to you because
i think you you felt more positively than than
some about about these episodes but there was
lots to like um there were some really lovely
moments with like mel in the memory tardis just
having mel as a companion for these two episodes
um it looked really good in places there were
some really exciting action sequences uh and
there were some interesting ideas about you know
ruby's mother is significant because we thought
she was significant again tying to that meta
thing of it's almost us as the audience watching
doctor who and assuming that ruby's mum is special
which makes her special um that was an interesting
idea i wasn't super sold on the execution and
it's it's it's just like it's things like when
i watched um uh you know church on ruby road
and uh and you see that hooded figure in retrospect
that falls a bit flat for me because it's oh
it's just it's just a mom and she's pointing
menacingly towards a a street sign for some reason
rather than just like leaving a note saying this
is ruby um But yeah, so that's my feeling. And
I think this retrospective has been really good
for reminding me of how much good stuff there
was in this season. I think because I was a bit
down on this ending that had this effect of slightly
souring me on the whole season and leaving me
with an impression that was worse than it deserved.
Yeah, so basically this didn't work for me as
well as it could have done. I think a lot of
other people felt similar. But I'll hand over
to you, Mark, because I think you found more
to enjoy in this one. Yeah, I went on a bit of
a strange journey with this one because I understand
something of what you're talking about there
because... I had been going on this, to me, the
season went on this very strong run, certainly
from episode two through to right up until and
including Rogue. And then I was all ready for,
and I understand that I'm, you know, partly to
blame for this because I brought my package of
expectations to what the finale would and should
even be, you know, in terms of all this meta
theorizing that had crept into the mix. And then,
you know. The Legend of Ruby Sunday initially
disappointed the heck out of me because I watched
it and I thought, oh no. Like, certainly when
that ending arrived, I thought, surely it's not
just bringing back an old villain. Is it just
bringing back an old villain? And then it was
exactly that. And it was, it felt, you know,
that moment of reveal falls. fell and actually
still largely falls totally flat for me for two
reasons right one i think the way it's executed
is very overdone now not the build -up through
the episode itself which is actually pretty strong
um but the moment of of its reveal do you remember
how in aliens of london they had that first sort
of cliffhanger around the slitheen yeah and because
they hadn't done cliffhangers for years it felt
a bit too spun out it lost its own momentum it
wasn't concise enough and it didn't, and because
of that, it just sort of over toppled a bit.
This felt like that to me. And I thought, oh,
even with all those intervening years, it's still,
they've done that again, you know, su -text,
you know, if it had been like at the end of Fenric,
you know, at Fenric part three or whatever, where
it's like, we play the contest again time, you
know, that kind of really concise punchy moment
and you go flip a neck, but it was this, you
know, Don't get me wrong, the Harriet Arbinger
stuff and all, great. The sort of talking, the
kind of her talking and that kind of mantra and
everything. And then even the anagram thing.
But then Susan Twist stands there for ages talking
and talking and talking and everybody is wide
eyed. And I don't know, it felt really stretched.
It's even more than Utopia levels of hype. And
I think Utopia works so well because it's built
up just enough in the season. Derek Jacoby is
so good. Yeah. The master has so much personal
significance to the doctor who thinks that he's
the last survivor of a genocide that he committed.
All of that makes it so impactful. And then,
and this one, yeah, Sutec's a well -regarded
villain, but it's a long time ago. He's not really,
he's not really like, however much you retrospectively.
talk him up. He doesn't really feel like a recurring
nemesis of the Doctor. It's like one TV story
and a few bits of spin -off media. Yeah, and
then the other thing, by the way, I realise I'm
sounding quite negative here, but I am going
to spin this around in a minute. The other thing,
the second... dimension to that that really disappointed
me was well just the fact that it was Sutec you
know it's just like to me now I have to admit
and I know that I'm unusual in this as a fan
right one of my least favorite stories is Pyramids
of Mars I don't know why it just it's just not
it just doesn't hit me the same way like I think
in some ways it's so like this is what Doctor
Who should be to a certain generation of fans
that it just it almost repels me with it's sort
of like you know or totemic nature or something.
You know, it's just like, okay. And then you've
got Sutec who, don't get me wrong, like Gabriel
Wolfe has an amazing voice and he invests that
character with so much surface sort of, I don't
know what the word would be. Like he really draws
you in with that voice and he's scary, but there
isn't really much to Sutec. He's this godlike
being. And by the time we reached the end of
this season. He's somebody that's sort of built
himself up to a point where he's close to omnipotence
and he has a sort of obsession with acquiring
total omnipotence, which is why Ruby's mother
is the one missing link of the chain for him.
But I don't know, just at that moment, I was
so hugely disappointed that it was just like,
oh, we've put a Sutec in it, you know, that...
It just left me really disappointed that week.
Then Empire of Death came along, right? And totally
redeemed it for me. Again, I know I'm unusual
in this regard because most people out there
seem to be saying, oh, the first part was the
one that worked amazingly well and it was the
second one that let everything down. I personally
feel it's the opposite. I think what Russell
T Davies did... was intentionally bring back
a villain that he knew a certain proportion of
the fandom would love to see again right and
he he says well look okay i've given you i've
done the ian levine thing now right i've done
it on purpose and i've given you this now be
careful what you wish for because he's actually
a great big god of nothing right and and then
overtly says so and then dispatches him in a
manner which you know had a lot of fans wailing
and gnashing their teeth But I think actually
it was brilliant because what he's saying is,
okay, there he is. He's a device. He's brought
about this catastrophic end of the universe thing.
Now what is he? He's just a big dog with a scary
voice. What do we do? How do we bring this back
to the soul of what Doctor Who is? And the way
you do that is you say, it's kind of in the way
that the Daleks were sort of. summarily dismissed
by Rose at the end of The Parting of the Ways.
You say, right, you are a great big god of nothing
and all that's really important here is the foregrounding
of the emotional journey of our main characters.
And there's a moment, there are some beautiful
moments in this. The real heart of this for me,
right, there are two key things that have both
the soul of this story, what's important in this
story, and the soul of Doctor Who. And I've seldom
seen the essence of Doctor Who captured better
than in these moments. And I'll try and explain
as concisely as I can what I mean. One of them
is the moment where the Doctor goes in to the
wasteland, into that tent, and talks to that
lady. And... That was a really good scene. It's
so beautifully done. Yeah, it's so... It... The
kindness in his eyes and the way she's so exhausted
and she talks very, you know, with this sort
of residual sense of romance about the place,
but it's all fading, it's all going. And he is
so gentle with the way he approaches it. He asks
about the deceased baby. She isn't quite even
aware that she's lost the child. She has some
sort of... vague awareness at the end. And when
she hands over the spoon, this is the crucial
thing for me. I know some people find this very
stupid. They were like, this is ridiculous. What
is it he's after, a spoon? But they're sort of
throwing away the poetry of that moment for just
plot literalism, you know? And I think what that
scene gives us is just like this amazing distillation
of the Doctor. where he holds his spoon aloft
and he says, with this spoon, I might save the
universe, right? And then by the time that scene
has ended and that lady is deceased, he actually
changes, it has changed from I might to I swear,
right? Now he doesn't mean literally the spoon
and only the spoon, but there's something in
that that boils down the essence of the Doctor
to like, what is he? He's a very silly man who
can do... the most profound and hope -giving
things by virtue of the sheer silliness, you
know. Do you know what I mean? Like, he takes
the most improbable thing there and he gives
you hope and you believe him, you know. And I
think that's Doctor Who in a nutshell. I've never
seen a scene, I've seen very few scenes in the
series history. And what's crazy is, Russell
D. Davis said on the commentary, you'll probably
remember this. that they were going to cut that
out, that whole scene was going to go. That's
unbelievable to me, that they would have sacrificed
that on the altar of having some more stuff in
the Westminster. Easily, I think, the best final
episode for me. The other thing I was talking
about that I think encapsulates the spirit and
the heart of Doctor Who in this story is... a
lot of people were complaining afterwards about
how much time was spent in the memory tardis
and even saying it was embarrassing and just
you know they had all that disney money and look
what they've done i've taken it down into this
they've set one third of this finale in this
cramped little cluttered space and to me what
that's saying is that's rtd having really good
instincts and going yes we have all this disney
money now right we have It's brilliant that we
have it and we can and should be doing amazing
things we've never been able to do before with
this. But let's remember what Doctor Who has.
It has a BBC heart. It's BBC to its core, right?
This might sound like a strange thing to bring
in at this moment, but what is more BBC, right?
The BBC we grew up with, you and I. I'm a bit
older than you, but you'll know what I'm talking
about. The likes of, you know, the broom cupboard,
for instance, right? The memory tortoise is the
broom cupboard. It's this intimate space. It's
the counterintuitive move of, yes, we're this
big institution, but come and join us behind
the water pipes in this little silly cupboard
and you'll feel like our friends every afternoon.
Do you know what I mean? It's kind of drawing
you into an intimate space. in a way that no
amount of grandstanding with money could ever
do. And I think that all those little touchstones,
it's not just Mel caressing the Sixth Doctor's
coat or holding the Seventh Doctor's question
mark. I know all those lovely kisses to the past
are there, but it's just bringing the scale back
down, pulling you in and giving you hope in this
little warm ember of sanctuary in the middle
of this devastated universe. And from there...
giving the doctor just this little breathing
space to find his way back to his best self.
And I just, I'm not talking about it as articulately
as I wanted to, but you know what I mean about
that? There's something like, it's the spirit
of the broom cupboard, it's the spirit of Lime
Grove. It's small, it's intimate, and it's going,
doctor who is still this, it hasn't forgotten
what it is, and it's still here. Please see that
we see that and please see that that's the heart
of it. And then at the very end, you get all
that stuff about Ruby's mother, the scene in
the coffee shop. And I think it's fantastic.
I would happily watch 10 more scenes of that
than I would have just Sutec saying villainy
things while the doctor does witty retorts. You
know, you need that stuff too. But I think they
got the proportions exactly right. And I think
they just... There's a bit in, again, another
odd thing to bring in at this moment, but I was
watching a bit of season 17 the other night,
of all things. And I hadn't seen it in years,
but Creature from the Pit. And the doctor, Tom
Baker, just throws out this very flippant comment.
I had a couple of things that guy didn't have,
which was a teaspoon and an open mind. And that
phrase, you know, there's the doctor holding
the spoon aloft, you know, that's kind of nearly
like the... Yeah, I was just thinking of that
phrase when you mentioned... Yeah, there he is
with his teaspoon and open mind. And it's the
only way back to the universe in that moment.
It's like it makes, you know, it gives me goosebumps
thinking about it. And so, yeah, I don't know.
So I've seen all this stuff in it that apparently
other people aren't seeing. Maybe I'm over -romanticizing
it. I see it, definitely. The stuff with the
scene with the spoon, I definitely see that.
And that's, I think, one of the reasons why I
liked that part of the episode. I liked lots
of parts of this episode, all this two -part
finale, including the stuff with Ruby's mother.
I think that was played really nicely. There
are little things like where the barista's called
Ruby's order and she's said, yeah, that's me,
and then just ignored the... Bruce didn't have
that conversation with his mum. But no, it's
played with a lot of really affecting emotion.
The one last thing that didn't work as well for
me was the departure at the end. And it felt
like something that was designed to come at the
end of a longer run. of time with Ruby and the
Doctor. Because we've had eight episodes, two
of which we haven't had both of them heavily
featured. So six episodes plus a Christmas special.
And it felt like it was really going for it with
that sort of Rose and the Doctor parting ways
in Doomsday sort of energy. Again, both the actors
played it really, really well. The scene in isolation
was great. It's just I didn't feel like there
had been enough build -up over the previous episodes
to warrant that level of focus on it. Yeah, I
understand what you're saying. And yet when I
watched it, and every time I've watched that
scene so far, the fact that it hits me, it does
affect me emotionally. i i get it you know i
get the feels as they say you know every time
and and deeply and i mean the doctor's little
tight smile at the end there like he's he's wait
it's it's it's kind of like a little echo of
when sarah leaves at the end of hand of fear
or something like that you know he's holding
it in but he's not really holding it he's slightly
better at short but he's still you know it again
there we are there's a double -edged sword of
post -therapy but not still still not brilliant
at some aspects of that um but you know that
there's yeah i i can i think i i can i can just
looking at it from a production standpoint i
suspect what happened is that you're right it
was intended to be a longer run i think how things
hit the the news headlines got a bit garbled
there probably was an honest conversation between
um millie gibson and the production team where
she maybe said like i i can't presently at any
rate for whatever her reasons were i can't presently
carry on at this this rate of workload and i
for my mental health or something you know this
is me i have no basis for this it's just it's
just my own feelings about what might have happened
so she maybe was meant to be right through the
following season too but they felt the duty of
care towards her and they said we want you to
still be part of it so we'll bring you back in
a smaller capacity smaller but just as important
capacity next season and so they probably did
have to reshape that ending but given that that's
the case i still think it was really well done
and actually quite well rationalized you know
i've heard people complain that um they believe
that her you know having found her birth mother
and and investigating the birth father and all
that was was too flimsy a reason in their opinion
for for them to have this sort of even temporary
separation, but I don't think that's true. I
think it's right to me. It makes loads of sense.
Like, I think absolutely. I think the only thing
I personally would have preferred is if it was
just like a little, yeah, like you mentioned
Sarah leaving, like that sort of just a little
more underplayed with like just a moment of,
you know, him alone in the TARDIS afterwards
rather than it. Yeah, again, like I said, being
played like they're being ripped apart and they're
never going to see each other again. I know that's
the, like on an emotional level, that's what
the Doctor's feeling because like, yeah, they're
temporarily separated, but he knows that this
is like the beginning of the end and they're
not going to be travelling together. One other
thing I just want to bring in, because this illustrates
both something that... kind of simultaneously
a scene that both simultaneously annoyed and
you know I both loved it and hated it at the
same time because there's that very quiet scene
where Kate comes and finds the doctor you know
in one of the little pauses and things in the
middle of all the madness and she says she's
talking to him about how her father would tell
stories about the doctor you know and in the
firelight mill when she was younger and uh he
says this amazing thing which i think is is very
uh on point for his doctor in particular where
he says uh in those days i was the great enigma
and i'm still trying to shake that off and i
think that's brilliant that's so him right he's
all about text and not he's all about sort of
text and not subtext these days he He wants to
be straightforward. He wants to be, you know,
this is progress for him, not to be so, you know,
mysterious all the time, even though he will
accuse himself of exactly that in the Christmas
special. But at the same time, the one bit I
really didn't like in that was he's talking about
his granddaughter and saying, oh, yeah, I am
a granddaughter, but not yet. And I just thought,
what? I don't know. That just doesn't... Yeah,
there's been a lot of little skirting around
Susan in the Devil's Chord as well. Maybe we
can talk about that briefly in our expectations
and see if that will come back. Shall we go on
to... Yes, I did really ramble on there. Apologies.
I feel like one of the few people that really
thinks an emperor of death is actually... I'll
stop short of saying a masterpiece, but way,
way better than people are giving it credit,
like many people are giving it credit for. So
I probably got a bit carried away there. No,
I think it's always better to hear a sort of
defence of something that has been, you know,
had a mixed reception rather than just rehashing
the same tidal criticisms. And like I said, I
agree with you a lot about those bits in isolation,
like that scene in Scatulating. the spirit of
Doctor Who, I think that's a really lovely thought
as well. But yeah, let's go on to Joy to the
World. I think both of us liked this one, and
I think a lot of people did as well. I think
overall it went down quite well. Viewing figures,
Christmas always means there's a bit of a bump,
but I think it did reasonably well in the viewing
figures as well. I don't have the numbers to
hand. But yeah, I think you especially liked
this one. What was it about Joy to the World
that really stood out for you? Okay, yeah. I
actually, when I watched this on Christmas Day,
I think about five minutes after the episode
had ended, I realized that it was my favorite
Christmas special of all. And I thought, wow,
that's a very, you know, normally it takes a
little time to make up your mind about that stuff.
But I thought that's a very firm. I've drawn
quite quickly there. Why is it my favorite? And
I think it just, it's a number of things. I think
it just, I think it's the one that just destroyed
me the most emotionally. Like it just, you know,
to bring it back, like what do you want a Christmas
episode to do? You don't want it to be overly
mawkish, but you want it to resonate deeply with
you on an emotional or spiritual level or something.
this did now one criticism i've heard people
say quite a lot is that they find it um i don't
know whether you will or won't agree with this
one but they they find it to be like uh an uneasy
compromise between in other words it should in
their opinion it should have been one thing or
the other either the the year spent at the hotel
exclusively or it should have been giving joy
more airtime um how do you feel about that actually
i i wouldn't have i think i said at the time
i would have liked more time with joy i think
it was enough like yeah it was enough for that
ending to have the impact it was supposed to
have and yeah so in hindsight i think it works
fine but yeah my initial impression was more
along those lines of like this felt a bit and
i think part of the sort of confusion with that
was like who was being pushed as the big star
um and maybe that was like a marketing thing
um but both of these actresses were great but
it just seemed weird that only one of them was
like getting that top billing when both of them
had some really great moments with the doctor
I have a little theory about that. But actually,
what I want to say before it goes out of my head
first is that I actually feel that it was perfectly
weighted between those two elements. I think
some people are looking at it as this thing that
was sort of like had to be, you know, was bodged
together from parts for behind the scenes reasons.
And you can sort of see the join. And to me.
Instead, it looks like it's been carved out of
whole marble the whole time. Like it's a perfect
thing. And the exact amount of joy and the exact
amount of the year the hotel was there, that
thing works as a short story in the middle perfectly.
And any more of it would have over toppled it.
And any less of, I think we just had just the
right amount of joy to really get to know her
as a person, get some really... powerful stuff
from her and and then see her you know transform
into the star and by then really feel something
about that because but but the theory thing i
was going to get back to was isn't it interesting
that yes she did have the star you know nicola
cochlan whose star is very much on the rise no
pun no pun intended um but she so so and then
you have this actress playing um Anita. And first
of all, Anita, that's an interesting name. I
don't know whether that's a bit of a red herring
or a teasing of the fans to try and make you
make a connection with Mrs. Flood, but it wouldn't
surprise me because if she did turn out to be
Mrs. Flood in the end, and it's because the cast
and actress there, and if I remember rightly,
she was It was her first television thing ever.
And it was supposed to, well, notionally, it
was supposed to be quite a small five minute
appearance by her. Or you would only have seen
the bits you saw at the start with Joy signing
in and so on. And we're told the story that actually
when they realized what she could do, they wrote
up her part more and more. And I'm not sure I
believe that. I think that feels like a little
bit of a fib. And I think they wrote it exactly
as it was from the outset, but they didn't want
to pull too much focus towards this lady. But
they needed to pull a certain amount of focus
to her by giving her this full year in the doctor's
company because she may well turn out to be Mrs.
Flood. And you may think, well, how would that
be? Because she's just a very straightforward,
normal person. But then she goes to work in the
Time Hotel. So let's imagine that maybe she gets,
I don't know, possessed by a force. Maybe she
becomes the receptacle for one of the guardians
or something. I don't know what it is. Something
quite big would have to happen. Because, like
I said, I was re -watching Empire of Death, and
the way that she talks, she's talking about herself
as being on the same level as gods, even if she's
not a god herself. It's so interesting, isn't
it? Yeah, she's talking about tearing down the
gates of heaven and stuff like that. We do have
hints at hell in the forthcoming. season. So
there's something going on with heaven and hell
there. But yeah, to return to Joy to the World,
I just found it a perfect emotional journey.
I love the fact that at the end, they actually
treat the business of the Bethlehem moment with,
first of all, I think it's right. after all the
Christmas specials we've had to finally go there,
but also to do it in a way that respects everybody.
So whether you're atheist, agnostic or a firm
believer, you can take what you want from that
moment. It can hit you on your own emotional
level. The iconography of it is still there and
the joy of the doctor in that moment and just
the visuals and the music in particular, I just
think it all comes together. There's a beautiful
music cue, that whole final build up to that
moment. um it's done very reverently and like
yeah in a way that's not gonna upset anyone but
it's also a little bit fun and it's it's almost
like the sort of um the dialogue version of it
is it the tenth doctor who drops a hint about
um being at the stable but oh yeah um like when
you hear him talk about it that's like much more
irreverent in terms of how it's put across but
this was like there's a slight flippancy about
the no room at the end at the start but then
i think when you get there it's it's done very
very sensitively and and actually something else
you've just reminded me of was another sort of
sensitive approaching of that was in um the paul
mcgann story on audio the relative dimensions
where he talks about leonardo wanting to go see
the the nativity and so on, and then they get
almost to the inn and then he has a panic attack
and needs to go back. And so he takes, you know,
but he describes that whole thing so beautifully
and then he says, well, he still ended up painting
a beautiful picture at the end of it. And anyway,
that's a bit of a tangent. I didn't really need
to go on there. I just, it's just, it's a very,
stephen moffat -y thing you know to have that
just i don't know he he plots it so well and
he he has just the right the right character
things said you know like there's a character
like trev you know he's not in it much but you
you really feel for trev you know like he by
the end he's he's he feels like an old friend
and you're like yeah i'm glad you're you're dead
but you're happy you know yeah that's really
good i mean things like the night of the doctor
is the peak example of that of like packing a
lot in and doing it in a really deft concise
way um and i totally agree with you that there's
lots of little examples of that here one that
stood out for me one example of that was is the
opening scene which is um kind of i think i talked
about this on the the sort of immediate reaction
episode but it's kind of Going against this thing
of the Doctor being... Going back to the thing
about the Doctor being this weird Patrick Troughton
-style character who's popping into steel milk
rather than being a superhero or some other type
of character. It felt like really going back
to the weird, strange roots of the character.
I did love that, yeah, the milk stealing and
the mugs that are bigger on the inside and all
that. Just him in his house coat there, like,
you know, just the whole thing's brilliant. Yeah,
and just, well, there's so much you could say.
I just, I know I'm not going to be able to do
the thing justice. It's just how it hits me on
an emotional level. I think, I know I could watch
that one again. Oh, I'll tell you what, sorry,
I would be absolutely furious with myself if
I hadn't mentioned this part. that moment in
the lift like the part that really captivates
me every time it's it's uncomfortable to watch
but it is brilliant and it's almost like the
doctor has to channel his inner seventh doctor
in that moment or something because the stakes
are so high yeah i really like like that moment
he is brutal there you know and it's like he
doesn't hold back you know you really there's
no there's no now you know it's you know it's
hurting him on the inside to do that but he gives
it like he goes full method like he's he's just
going right i have to be and you can't hear you
know cruel to be kind yeah and you can't have
that every episode but i think those sorts of
moments are great for actually giving this doctor
some edges and some because he's extremely like
charismatic and likable in every episode he's
in but though and it's the same with jodie jodie
whittaker's doctor as well actually like extremely
likeable and watchable and really feels like
the Doctor. But I wanted her to get more moments
of that edge and those unexpected turns. And
yeah, the moment in the lift that you've described,
that worked so well for me because of that. Yeah,
I could watch that over and over again just because
as an acting thing between the two of them, it
is immaculate. Every single beat and choice that
they make. um and it even helps you forget about
the fact that this must be traveling incredibly
slowly but you know it's a very common that's
a very common tv trike that like lifts take just
as long as you need for a conversation to happen
um one more thing to mention about this episode
i think before before we move on is um and you
sort of you alluded to it earlier but like all
the stuff with Joy's mum and I don't know if
they used the word COVID but like referring to
the pandemic in a pretty obvious way I thought
all of that was like incredibly like really well
judged in terms of how far they go and the balance
between you know being upsetting and like having
that moment of happiness at the end and doing
all that in a fluffy piece of Christmas television.
And, yeah, I thought it walked all those lines
really well. And it contrasted, and it was very
real. It was like acknowledging that COVID and
the pandemic happened, and it's always interesting
how TV shows engage or don't engage with those
sorts of things. And it contrasted for me with...
like back in 2005, where you have the reference
to weapons of mass destruction. What was the
phrase? Weapons... Oh, they could be deployed
in 45 minutes. Or was it 45 seconds? 45 seconds.
And it was something like weapons of... There
was some variation on that phrase. And that was
obviously referring to real -world events, but
in a much more kind of jokey sci -fi sort of
way that was still... and was making some sort
of point. And, you know, the whole thing about
the Tony Blair analogue being the Prime Minister.
But the way it's handled in Joy to the World,
I thought it was like a really emotionally sincere
and well -judged version of that in terms of
engaging with serious real -world events. Oh,
completely. I mean, and that bit where she just
breaks emotionally because she's... reliving
the trauma of listening to the advice. And she's
reeling about these politicians that, you know,
were total hypocrites and the damage that, you
know, it would have been, it's a traumatizing
thing anyway, but to have been so badly let down.
I think Doctor Who acknowledging that in about
as overt a way or making room for that. to the
right extent not not not underselling it and
not um yeah not underselling it i think that's
the key thing yeah um yeah so but uh yeah and
of course it was very specifically the year 2020
there you know so what else could it be except
for cover even though you're right it doesn't
it doesn't explicitly say so um so yeah it's
uh it's an incredibly powerful piece of work.
I think it's neat. Actually, just one tiny thing
further on Mrs. Flood. Somebody, this is not
me, some other eagle -eyed person out there had
spotted that there's a car in the first Christmas
special, Churchill and Ruby Road. It appears
to be the same blue car, supposedly, as Anita's
car, and it's outside Mrs. Flood's house or whatever
or nearby um in shot anyway and of course she
has that moment where the car is reprogrammed
to take her where she needs to go it's it's a
bit tardissified or something um anyway sorry
that's i just wanted to throw that in there because
i thought i'm not taking credit for that one
and i can't remember to whom i should give the
credit but i read it somewhere online someone
had spotted that and i thought it's an interesting
catch well let's let's wrap up then with like
moving on to season two theories hopes fears
um we have episode titles we've got a few trailers
now we've got a behind the scenes trailer um
yeah let's let's do it in terms of like hopes
and fears like what what are you hoping for from
season two um non -cancellation at the end of
it um well uh To be a bit more serious, well,
not that that's not serious because we have serious
worries about that, but I would just like to
see, in a way, more of the same, because I think
it's been a very strong run and I could just
sit and watch. and another companion who's obviously
going to have a great dynamic with him, just
foregrounded against whatever events they're
going to throw at us. Even though I said I'd
learned my lesson, I think when we spoke about
this last time, I said I'd learned my lesson
and I absolutely wasn't going to rekindle the
embers of the meta theory. I don't know. Things
seem to be... There's a lot of things lining
up, like episode two is very much along those...
Well, that is the concept of episode two, and
the name of the final episode is... Yeah, and
even in terms of the promotional stuff, they
have those, the whole adverts that they put on
where the Doctor was popping up in programs,
you know? And like an old episode of EastEnders,
like a really old episode of EastEnders and stuff
like that. And you're kind of going, what's,
you know, is that saying something? Because if
it's not saying something, it's an odd. That
one in particular, you know, the 90s episode
of EastEnders is a particularly odd one to have
used. In isolation, you could just see that as
like marketing, like an extension of the thing
of like having fun with idents and things like
we have done in the past, like, you know, David
Tennant. driving a sled through the BBC ident.
But we've had lots of stuff like that in the
past. I think it's all of this stuff coming together
in a cumulative way that starts to rekindle that
theory. And the BBC, not the Disney, but the
BBC promotional stuff had at the end, you know,
those little cool, what do you call them? They're
like just two second things of what each episode's
about, you know, a little sort of style. yeah
um the final one has you know cracks come out
of the doctor who logo and stuff and it just
if that's not saying doctor who will turn out
to be a program from which all realities fragment
i don't know what what would you know but i've
been wrong about this before i'll probably be
wrong again and you know uh i did mrs flood possibly
turn out to be i don't know um romana gone bad
or something god knows i i'm like i'm hoping
for mrs flood to be some sort of really compelling
interesting new character um i'm sure there's
a way of having it be the rani or someone else
that we already know and it being good but i
don't know i just i feel like i'm drawn to the
idea of her just being some new fascinating entity
that we have no idea about. And even like a bit
ambiguous about like who she is or what powers
she has. And maybe we don't get all the answers
about her by the end of the season. It sounds
like there's going to, it seems obvious there's
going to be some big reveal about her. And we
even have hints about like which episode that's
going to. come with with some of the leaks and
things yeah i think russell c davis has like
given a warning about which episodes to like
really catch up with to avoidly see it on broadcast
or or see it on online or or um social media
for the rest of the day kind of thing three and
six he said yeah so we know there's going to
be big things in each of those episodes Yeah,
I'd like there to be something new. I would like,
because I wasn't as sold on the season one finale,
one of my hopes is that seasons one and two work
together to tell a story that's more satisfying
for me as a whole. Here's an interesting thing
on that very topic, which is... I forgot to say
this when we were talking about the two -part
finale just a moment ago. There's a point during
the whole investigation of that amazing, beautifully
done sequence where they're inside the VHS tape
and all that. And Chidozie is what you call the
unit operative that goes on in. The doctor encourages
him to go on in at his own risk. And of course,
the guy gets killed. um but at the point when
he gets killed sutek well who we who we will
later find out to have been sutek says the voice
from the cloud says he has gone to hell right
and then later on when when kate and every one
else on the planet has died but then gets resurrected
thanks to bringing death to death by the way
I think Death to Death is not silly at all. It's
beautiful and it's poetic and I will defend that
one to the, well, to the death. But anyway, people
are being sometimes overly literal about this
stuff, but like Doctor Who, you know, who knows
what the powers of a god are? He's weaponising,
he's making the monster fall into his own traps
and he's doing what he's always done there. So
anyway, what was I saying? Oh yes, Kate... comes
back and she says she remembers echoes of something.
And I thought this time around, okay, that connects
to what was said about Chidozie having gone to
hell. And this forthcoming season, I think it's
episode three, where that word seems to be somewhat
associated with that episode. The first time
I heard some of the titles leaked, that was originally
going to be called Five Miles Down. And I don't
know, hell, we've had that word used in the past
and Doctor Who to refer to, for instance, the,
you know, thing we call, the first one with the
oud and all that, you know, we had. So, you know,
it's probably not a literal one. My hope is that
the two seasons work together as like two acts
of the same story. The finale at the end of season
two is going to wrap the whole thing up in some
sort of way that feels very satisfying. I'm also
really excited about the new companion. There's
a lot of parallels to Martha. She's a nurse rather
than a medical student. But yeah, just in the
little bits that we've seen of her in the trailer,
I just get like a really... And to Tegan because...
Oh, yes. Tegan and Rhiannon Barber because the
whole mission statement is to get her home. That's
exciting as well. This season has that really
strong mission statement. This is what we're
trying to do. It's almost like a movie. You have
a sense of what a high -level plot is just from
that tagline. Oh, I love that second trailer,
by the way, because... I would never have guessed
in a million years that they'd use a Phil Collins
track of all things, but it works so well and
it ties thematically in so well because even,
I went, I'd never heard that song before, but
when I went and watched the video, did you do
this? In the video, even he travels around the
world, like he just keeps popping up in all these
different, you know, landmarks, you know, from
Tokyo to, and of course we've even had those
little idents where, you know, a destroyed Eiffel
Tower is flying through space and all that kind
of stuff. So I feel there's something about,
you know, there's something really cohesive about
this marketing strategy where they're going,
they're thinking about even the song choice,
making it thematically relevant, but maybe subtly
thematically relevant for anyone casual looking
in. But yeah, I just think it feels kind of,
I could be getting my hopes up here beyond what
they should be, but it feels very... sure -footed
in what it's doing I've almost begun to wonder
is RTD sort of nearly trying to I know it might
just literally be that like Disney really are
sitting on their hands and he doesn't know what's
going to happen and there could be a couple of
years where they don't even know whether the
show's coming back but I think he might even
just be playing a bit of a game he knows what
the plans are but he can't reveal what they might
be until or the new format for the show or something
until whatever happens happens it's all speculation
but like i wonder as well whether he's trying
to be clever and hedges bets with where season
two is going because if this is some sort of
multiverse reality war thing that it's all heading
towards maybe the ending oh and that's the other
thing we've heard we've heard about reshoots
haven't we yes so and the reasons for those reshoots
as well the rumored reasons oh well yeah that's
the other thing about like um yeah is is the
doctor gonna gonna regenerate and but but but
in terms of like is it gonna is it gonna go on
hiatus are disney going to continue is it going
to go back to just being a bbc thing is it going
to be a new maybe this reality war finale has
some sort of um safety mechanism where they can
reboot the show in like various different forms
depending on where where like the production
backstage stuff goes in future so like there's
some big cliffhanger at the end of this season
and then if disney continue we get like more
in the same style but if it goes back to the
bbc maybe we have some sort of reality changing
event that justifies why we're shifting our scope
and style back to where it used to be yeah i
think you could be onto something there that
sounds very um persuasive um yeah so but but
another thing about that is say for instance
that um Who very understandably at this point
must be thinking, look, I have other things to
be doing here. I'm a young up and coming actor
and I can't sit around indefinitely waiting for
contracts to be, you know, signed here. What
if that being the case, RTD has said to him,
look, hang fire here. We will accommodate you.
Like say, say we do need to go to just like.
two years of two specials per year or something
like that. We can quickly shoot them. We can
get them done. We can let you go off and do your
Hollywood stuff and we'll still have you. I think
that would be a very worthwhile compromise because
he's so good, this guy. Like we want him for
his life. Well, I would certainly like, I'd take
10 years of shooting doctors. You know what I
mean? I'd happily see him be the longest running
we've had on TV. But, you know, realistically,
that's not going to, that's not the modern. way
it goes. If he stops after this, then he won't
have done much more than Christopher Eccleston.
No, that's true. He does say at the end of Empire
of Death, he does say, I'm keeping this face.
Don't you worry, I'm keeping this face for a
long time. Which maybe in retrospect sounds like
that moment that Colin Baker said he was going
to do seven years. It could be a time of the
doctor situation where we have a story where
he spends thousands of years. That's true, yeah.
The old prosthetics going, yeah. Okay, so anything
else about season two before we wrap up? I'm
just looking through the episode titles. Can
we have good songs, please, for the Eurovisions?
Oh, yeah, there's a Eurovision episode, which
they've managed to sync to the... day i think
and they talked about having like backup plans
around marketing i'm presuming if if it didn't
align precisely but i think they managed to have
it go out on the day yeah that was a lucky break
uh yeah so we've got robot revolution lux is
the one that one of the ones i'm most interested
in they they all look interesting like this whole
like from the first trailer And again, trailers
don't always accurately reflect what the actual
thing is like. But both the BBC and Disney trailers
I've really liked. And the first BBC one had
this much kind of scarier atmosphere to it that
felt, I don't know how to describe it, like less
safe. Like they were like, OK, we've established
what this new era is, who this new Doctor is.
now we're going to do. And the 2006 series two
was a bit like that. You had the impossible planet,
Satan Pit. And I don't think you would have had
that sort of story in season one. They needed
to establish what this new Doctor Who is and
then do those weirder, darker stories on that
foundation. And this feels like a repeat of that,
of like branching out a bit and doing stuff that's
more ambitious. more weird interesting yeah there's
i love what's really exciting is there's whole
swathes of this season i think even more so than
last time where you just don't know what like
there's there's there's what looks like a sort
of a 1960s kind of i don't know like a cafe or
something like it's tilted sideways at one stage
and it's got very you know it's got it's i don't
know whether it's african -american or what or
what the the vibe is there but there's there's
there's a there's distinctive flavors to each
episode that that uh wish episode looks i don't
know very otherworldly or you know something
like like out of mervyn peak or something it's
got that kind of vibe about it um and Yeah, I
mean, I think Lux is the one that I think could
on its face be the most sort of like, okay, here's
our sort of equivalent gimmick to last year's.
It's a pretty much identical scene of them getting
dressed. That's true as well. So there's speculation
about whether that's intentional, isn't there?
Because it's so shot for shot the same. that
it's some people are going you know weaponizing
that and going this is RTD finally out of ideas
and then some people are going well hold on what
if this means something um you know that that
they're that they're making that so overtly shot
for shot the same I don't know um actually just
on that subject just just and I'll try and make
this point as quickly as possible but it's been
on my mind right there's been a lot of online
negativity about the show from certain quarters,
right? And they seem to be attacking on every
front. The primary one being that it's supposedly
woke and so on. And I know it's like a case plus
a change on that one, right? But the thought
struck me the other day. I wondered if you took
last season, the season we just spoke about,
right? And somehow through some timey -wimey
mechanics, you could... Take that and swap it
and put it into 2005 as the first season we had
and put 2005 season here. You know, just swap
the bookends around completely. The same people
would probably be waxing lyrical about what we
had in the first year and say that this year
is rubbish. And it's not the show that's changed.
It's them. They've got older. Yeah, I think it's
totally the cultural context. It's the same thing
with like a lot of anti -trans stuff at the moment.
Like you used to have... trans people on shows
like big brother and it it wasn't an issue it's
only like in the recent you know last few years
where that's has become a massive issue for people
oh for sure i mean you've got you've definitely
got the transphobes and the racists and so on
but like let's put down to one side right there's
still a critical mass and thankfully not the
majority but but a very loud minority that's
out there and just just doctor who's not what
it used to be it's gotten rubbish the storytellers
and this show needs to be cancelled and they're
they sound angry and bitter and i think what
they're angry and bitter about is i think this
is history repeating because you remember somewhere
around like the early 80s fandom began to sort
of eat its own tail a bit and just get a bit
poisonous and call for RTD to be sacked. I think
we're sort of there again with the people that
came young to the revival and are now, you know,
they've 20 years on the clock since then and
life has been maybe a bit unkind to them and
they're just, the show isn't giving them, the
show isn't a sort of an all. an all fixing salve
for them. You know, it's, it can only pull them
out of their day, their, their work a day lives
for, for 45 minutes. And then they have to go
back. Do you know what I mean? And they just,
I think some people just need to try a bit harder
to reaccess their inner child and still see that
it's, it's hard. The show's heart is still the
same and it's something to still be hugely proud
of. That's, we probably haven't got time to go
into it now, but like, that's just made me think
of something else, which is, like i wonder how
much this new show is landing with like children
and teenagers who's i think there's been like
some stats and surveys on this i haven't really
looked into them into that much detail but my
instinct and my sense is that it's not it's nowhere
near like the impact of 2005 It really landed
with the audience that it was meant to. And those
people, like you say, have stayed with it for
a couple of decades. Although, interestingly,
I think one of the stats we did hear about, wasn't
it, was that, I mean, this may have just been
an attempt at spin, you know, pulling the positives
out of whatever data points they did have. But
it was supposedly the case that for BBC One anyway,
Doctor Who is the youngest skewing. That's true.
I don't want to be negative, but the counter
argument would be it doesn't have loads of competition
on BBC for what else is there that's going to
compete with it. And maybe that's because the
landscape is not in a great position in terms
of BBC produced sci -fi and fantasy. And again,
a couple of decades ago, Doctor Who seemed to
be prompting a bit of a resurgence of that. You
had Merlin and other bits and pieces that were
sort of... jumping on the excitement that Doctor
Who is generating. And maybe what we need to
hope for here is that instead of it being 1989
all over again, what we've got is 1969. You know
that point at which the BBC were sort of going,
did we make any more of this? And then they went,
can you think of anything that's... Got to do
this better than it's already been done. All
right, give it another run. So I want to look
back on when the end of season two is done, or
maybe when War Between Land and the Sea is done
as well. And we talked about this in one of our
previous episodes, but going into this new, new
era, I was expecting more. radical reinvention
and revolution. I don't know what that looks
like. I have no idea what that would be. But
I was expecting something, with all the talk
of it being a new era, I was expecting a bigger
departure from what we had before. And I was
up for that. I loved trying something new and
different. And it's been more of an evolution
rather than that revolution I was being or expecting.
And part of that is Russell T. Davis himself,
who's brilliant at talking things up, but he
can sometimes talk himself up onto a ledge, you
know. But what he did was he was saying, look,
I'm writing stuff that this show has never, ever
attempted before. And I was thinking, wow, what
could that be? It's so out of the box here. And
one of the things that came to mind to me as
a concept that they, you know, maybe there's
just two out there, but I was envisaging things
like. it's going to start off as a series where
there's five people and one of them is the Doctor
but they don't know it and they have to go on
a quest and one of them is going to turn out
to be the Doctor and they know that's going to
be one of them but they don't yet. Do you know
what I mean? It could be that sort of thing where
you only find out at the end of the season which
of these apparent humans is actually the person
who's going to become or re -become the Doctor
or something like that. That would be a truly
revolutionary thing. So that would maybe capture
a young demographic in a way that the show never
has before. So this would be like a, we should
probably wrap up soon, but that's given me like
an idea about a discussion we can have in future.
Like maybe when series two is done and we could
think, okay, where should Doctor Who go next?
Do you remember that Doctor Who magazine article
in the wilderness years? I do, with the little
legal people and all in it. Was it called Let
Beers and Star Wars? We're Going to Be Bigger
Than Star Wars, it was called. And it was like
all of those new adventures authors and people
doing their pictures for what Doctor Who should
be. Russell T. Davis and actually Stephen Moffat
and I think Gatiss were in there. Which one of
them? I think it was RTD who said the way he
would do it. This was him talking then and it
shows you how much his thoughts evolve on these
things over years. But he was talking then about
how he would bring it back and call it Doctor
Who 2000 and have the Doctor work in a bookshop
somewhere in a little village. And then over
time, mysteries would be brought to his door
and there'd be a little police box parked somewhere
in the village green or something that doesn't
have any significance until episode six or something.
I think that's the sort of stuff he was saying.
And then when we, yeah. That's interesting because
I think like... 2005 we were just at the point
where the mill was making like you know acceptable
cgi within reach so maybe like late 90s russell
t davies wasn't thinking that that was on the
table so he was thinking okay how do we make
doctor who effectively in the constraints of
bbc budgets and like you said 1969 1970 maybe
that sort of thinking was on his on his mind
at that point like how to just shift the whole
setup of the show to do something cool within
those constraints um but yeah let's but one one
final thing i just want to say is you mentioned
the land between the war and the sea before and
the one thing that gives me hope that you know
the reality war is not doctor who's final television
episode for you know a decade or something is
that uh or forever is that um I just don't see
the BBC putting out as its final ever thing of
the Hooniverse a spin -off about the sea levels.
I just can't conceive that that's how you bookend
things. So there'll be at least one more thing.
Well, maybe I'm being overly optimistic there,
but I kind of do trust that RTD, if anyone can
work miracles and turn this ship around in terms
of the possible decline of popularity and maybe...
genuinely blindside people with something extraordinary
here um i think he's capable of it i think he's
still capable of it yeah all right so i think
we're both going into season two with our hopes
and some excitement yeah and yeah we're expecting
to do like more instant reactions on the podcast
as we go through the season and i think it'll
be great to get together again afterwards for
another retrospective once once season two is
done. But any final thoughts before we wrap up?
No, I think that's it for me. We've done that
one. We've covered that pretty thoroughly. I
think so. And I think these chats have helped
me to see the good stuff in season one that I
might have missed because of focusing on the
bits that I just didn't. fall within my expectations
or do exactly what i wanted them to there's so
much good stuff for me in the middle of that
series um that i think really stands up and is
worthwhile uh so yeah i've really enjoyed going
back over it yeah me too i've really enjoyed
this So we'll leave it there. And yeah, as I
said, we'll be back with reactions for season
two. But otherwise, thanks very much, Mark, for
joining me. Well, thank you. It's been fun. And
we will see you soon. Goodbye. Bye.