You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality
Hello and welcome back to the second in our short
series looking back at the second RTD era of
Doctor Who. Last time we looked at the three
David Tennant 14th Doctor specials and this time
I'm joined by Mark again to go through the first
half of season one. of the 15th Doctor's era,
and we're also going to look at the church on
Ruby Road before we get into the season as well.
Shall we jump right in and start off with the
church on Ruby Road? So this was our introduction
to the 15th Doctor, although we'd seen him in
the previous episode in The Giggle. What were
your impressions of this when... You watched
it first. Really enjoyed it. It is not my favourite
of the two Intudy specials we've had so far,
the Christmas specials. Joy to the World ended
up being my all -time favourite Christmas special.
We'll talk about that when we get there. But
this thing was, yeah, I just found it very moving.
I thought it was a great showcase for... Because,
you know, as much as he got a significant part
in and really shown in his sort of final, you
know, what does he appear in there? The final
15 minutes of the last Tenant special there.
This was really him, I guess, just appearing
without ceremony. There he is, you know, Ruby
first sees him at the club dancing and everything.
It's very much just the doctor back to, he's
post -therapy, but any viewer starting there
wouldn't know that. They just see this freewheeling
guy. He takes things as he finds them. He's a
pure soul. He's an adventurer. And he's kind.
And all these qualities come pouring out of him
through the whole thing. I think as a showcase
for... and shitty is the new lead i think it
it served him very well um i think the the bond
with ruby is is there straight away you know
you see you see how well they work together as
a team there's great chemistry there in my opinion
um the the storyline with the goblins and so
on um it's fun you know and it's it's also an
excuse to do sort of really just crazy stuff
um including song and dance in the middle of
it um but the the real emotional heart of the
thing for me lies in a lot of the time just um
it's amazing how much of it takes place within
the stillness of that flat actually at times
and but but it just allows the thing to breathe
i love it when a Doctor Who episode, a regular
episode or a special just has allowed time to
really breathe and let those emotional beats
play out. And there's moments in that where the
Doctor is talking about his recent discovery
of having been adopted and being able to relate
to these adopted kids. And when history is set
on the wrong track because of the Goblin's interference,
we get the first of many, you know, tears from
and I know some people sort of have rolled their
eyes at how much he cries it's sort of in every
episode really but I think what that is is he
processes because he is the post therapy doctor
he's learnt to have healthy you know in real
time processing of things that hit him you know
hit him hard or that have real significance to
him so Yeah, and, you know, it obviously introduces
quite a few significant elements going forward.
We've got Mrs. Flood. We've got Cherry and, oh,
I'm so sorry, her name's gone out of my head,
Ruby's adoptive mother. And, yeah, so that whole
setup's there. There's a bit of mystery being
seeded in. There's proper Christmassy vibes at
the end. We get the total campery of... A Christmas
tree nearly falling on Davina McCall. Viewers
in America probably shrugging at that one. I
don't know, but it doesn't matter. By the time
we get there, hopefully they've had enough fun
with the thing not to be too confused and they
can understand it's a celebrity, no one over
here. Yeah, no, it left a good impression on
me and a great start for the Doctor and Ruby.
Yeah, yeah. And he picked up on one of the bits
I thought was interesting, which we talked about
with Wild Blue Yonder, the way that... rtd is
picking up the timeless child thing and actually
building on it and like making it really rooted
in like um like real relatable emotional situations
like adoption um and that's really interesting
because i think that's where chris chibnall's
interest in it might have come from originally
but it almost gets expressed if i'm i don't know
if i'm misremembering or if i remember him talking
about you know his own personal experiences and
interviews, but it feels like it's only in this
era that it's actually made explicit that connection
or is brought to the fore a bit more. Yeah, no,
he definitely did talk of that, his own adoption
experience and wanting to write a storyline around
that. And yet, you're right, I think RTT has
given it the most wit, you know, or I think has
sort of... um who teased the most out of that
in terms of in terms of just showing that the
you know the emotional uh effects of that rather
than just sort of stating it as a narrative fact
um i think that's what chibnall was going for
but he he didn't he didn't necessarily hit all
the you know hit all the right very laudable
intent but maybe not as well executed as what
rtd has later layered onto it. So anyway. Yeah,
and there was some of that in flux with like
meeting Tecteun and all of that. But it's kind
of, there's so much going on in flux that any
sort of, that there is something there, but it's
a little bit lost. Whereas in this, like you
said, these quiet scenes that have room to breathe
in the church in Ruby Road, it's just. really
laid out there in a really sort of nice, simple,
effective way. I thought this was interesting
because this episode has a lot in common structurally
with going right back to 2005 with Rose, meeting
the family, taking the companion's point of view,
discovering the Doctor through their eyes. But
then I also thought on top of that, you've got
these elements. brought in that seemed like a
bit of a mission statement about what this new
era is going to be like i think the music felt
like a big part of that the spectacle and the
effects with the the goblins um so so yeah it
felt like a really good um sort of yeah like
pilot or sort of mission statement for what this
new era is going to be um yeah like yourself
i haven't watched it in the last few days or
weeks, but I felt very positive about it at the
time and I think I still feel the same. The music
didn't bother me. It's interesting because I
think maybe we can talk about the theories we
had at the time, like mid -season, about where
this was all going, but maybe we can talk a bit
about the inclusion of music and fourth wall
breaks and things. as we get into some of the
other episodes. But one bit that didn't do so
well on a rewatch for me, if I'm honest, is like
the sort of setting up the mystery of Ruby's
mother and that big, like, you know, sort of
all the sort of ponderous, mysterious moments
where you see this hooded figure walking away.
And I get that that's the point, that it's like
this mystery built up around something that is
quite ordinary. But, yeah, it felt like a bit,
like it was built up too much. And, again, I
realise that's kind of the point, but, yeah,
that sort of felt a bit flat for me. It was interesting
to hear Russell T Davies himself on the commentary
for that one sit there and go kind of laugh along
with, you know, laugh in recognition of the fact
that it was a bit overdone and kind of say...
why is Ruby's mother wearing this ornamental
cloak? He's the one pointing these things out.
Maybe he's the one also that she could have stepped
in and said, could we... I think his point is
we wouldn't have done it any other way because
it just... It sort of painted herself into that
corner, so we ran with it. But I'll forgive that
a lot. just in terms of the atmosphere that it
creates because you know all that stuff the carol
the carol of the bells and um you know the snow
and it's it's so beautifully visually and and
orally done that that i guess those slight illogicalities
of presentation there's a sort of i don't know
you can mean it halfway on that one but i do
know what you mean it's a bit yeah it doesn't
particularly stand up to robust analysis as far
as why somebody would look that way in you know,
whatever year, whatever recent year that was
supposed to be. I forget what year they said
it was, but I'd have to work it out backwards
from Ruby's age. But yeah, relatively recent
times and somebody dressed like, I don't know,
someone from Victoria. Yeah, it didn't bother
me at the time before we knew what the reveal
was, but it's just like, it's re -watching it
that it didn't work quite as well for me. One
thing, sorry, just what it is, because it did
come back into my head there. I think this is
the one we're both going to be a bit equally
woolly on just because neither of us appears
to have got to a rewatch of this one in very
recent days. But the stuff with... the mathematics
of the language of rope and all that stuff. I
loved all that because it's another bit of signaling
that they, you know, and we also have like this,
this floating wooden ship. It's like, okay, since
the, since the salt incident happened, something,
something more supernatural has crept into the
universe. Things that might've looked a little
less, things that might've been just, just outside
the line before of what Doctor Who. feels it
can plausibly present has we've moved that line
basically and but it allows for some really interesting
things and i mean i love the fact that the doctor
can can can sort of understand the language of
rope and make all these and what was that there
before or after the soul change i don't know
um maybe maybe there was always that kind of
phenomenon and phenomenon in the universe but
um yeah it's just it's interesting what's being
toyed with there and i think uh russell t davis
is he goes on to sort of finesse that a bit more
as a series one and yeah that's that's set up
in world beyonder it's it's that the whole idea
is it's this discrete change the doctor does
something and it releases all these magical forces
but kind of out of universe looking at doctor
who as a whole if you draw a line from um is
it the demons the the one where uh like the third
doctor is Talking about superstition and science
and appropriately enough, that story is about
a demon and sort of supernatural, effectively
supernatural being, but is actually an alien,
which is like a recurring thing in Doctor Who.
But then I feel like over the decades, you know,
you get to Battlefield towards the end of the
original run. And then you get into like The
Impossible Planet and a lot of stories in the
new run and the books that came between. I feel
like Doctor Who has gotten increasingly magical
and sort of blurring the lines between science
and magic as the years have gone on from taking
this very sort of skeptical scientific position
of it can all be explained to now sort of saying.
yeah like there is magic there's just weird stuff
that seeps in through the cracks and yeah it's
all just part of an expanded kind of um realm
of possibility and sometimes sometimes it's going
to feel like a sciencey one and sometimes it's
going to feel like okay uh you know the normal
rules of physics may not may not quite apply
on this one but but it has its own um yeah freewheeling
kind of fantasy fun to it so let's just lean
into that. Yeah. I think we have that more than
ever this season. And I'm not saying that critically
because I know a lot of people, well, it seems
to have been a very Marmite experience, that
kind of tonal change. But I personally am on
the side of just, you know, it's what we have
for the time being. Let's enjoy it. And there's
a lot to be said for it. It's brought new possibilities
to the table and some of them have been done
very well. Yeah. Yeah, and maybe in our next
episode we can talk about looking forward to
season two because it feels like it's going to
be sort of even more leaning into the whole gods
and magic side of things. But shall we go on
to Space Babies, which is an interesting one
because re -watching this, Space Babies, it's
not... It's not bad, but it feels like a bit
of an aberration because we've got Wild Blue
Yonder, the Toymaker, Goblins, and then the next
episode we have Maestro. And in the middle we
have this story that feels like a sort of throwback
to the original RTD run in terms of tone and
what's going on. Like I said, it's not a bad
story, but for me, it's by far the weakest. And
I think we talked about this at the time, that
it feels like a weird choice to start off the
season. But what were your thoughts? Did you
get a chance to re -watch Space Babies? Yes,
I did. And I have to say, very similar thoughts
to your own on that. I would accept... I would
agree with you, and I think the majority would
take this view that it is the weakest of that
first Tenshiuri series. I'm aware that many people
out there absolutely detest it. I am not one
of those people. I actually find it, you know,
it's fun. In places, it's... Do you know what?
The only real problem I have with it is... it's
a little bit try hard you know like it's got
that um that energy where you're being slight
you know it's it's it's sometimes lots of pace
and energy works another time it's just it just
feels like okay stay with us stay with us this
is going to be an exciting show you know lots
is going to be happening it's going to be crazy
it's going to be wacky the doctor's going to
say you know things that are really quick far
away for you and i don't know it feels a bit
like that and um i don't know it's It's an odd
one. There's moments in it that I really like.
I love that first sequence of just Ruby walking
in slow motion into the TARDIS. There's beautiful
music. But that's, of course, a bit of a holdover
from the church in Ruby Road. I know one of the
things that gets criticized quite heavily is
that the doctor is... There's literally a scene
where... a series of questions and answers is
more or less dealt with in short succession.
The doctor says, oh, well, let me tell you about
myself. I'm a time lord. Now, some people, I've
heard quite a few people say that they find that
really clunky. I personally don't. And I think
some considerable thought and care has gone into
just saying, no, that's what, you know, first
of all, it is helpful for new viewers. But it's
not, I mean, it's not unreasonable to think that
those would be the, you know, that would be the,
there's even a moment where Ruby has to catch
up on stuff the doctor had told her 10 minutes
ago. And she says, wait a minute, genocide? What?
Like, you know, she's acknowledging the fact
that there's a lot to take in, but to ignore
the fact that there's a lot to take in would
also be a bit, I don't know, strange. So I think
RTD has in interviews and things. robustly defended
and I think rightly defended that kind of sort
of you know let's just have the conversation
we may know all this stuff but Ruby doesn't and
some brand new viewer may not and it's still
interesting to hear it put even stuff we've heard
a hundred times before from the Doctor it's interesting
to hear how this Doctor puts it this time and
so you know that's all fine the actual story
with the the snot monster, the bogeyman. Yeah,
that's all fine. The babies are, yeah, I guess
a lot of people, that triggers their sort of
uncanny valley reflexes. It's a strange sort
of thing to sit and watch. You never quite get
comfortable with the way they form. And there's
a slight, I don't know, I find it, what I find
a wee bit tricky is when the Doctor and Ruby
first arrive in the baby form and Eric first
sort of rolls in there. He's talking in a way
where, you know, he could be, he is talking like
an adult in a child's body who just happens to
be this, you know, this toddler in a stroller.
But he's saying very scientifically intricate
things and he's talking in a very professional
manner. And yet when they go back to the sort
of control room there, the main control room,
which something else I noticed today is just
they have, I know they put a lot of effort into
the... the the the sort of drawings and the walls
and things and i'm thinking which which of those
children do that drew that did they did they
get out of their prams to draw it how did they
get it up to that height anyway um that's the
sort of silly stuff i can get distracted by but
um yeah when they go back to that uh control
room a lot of the children are talking in this
very um childlike way you know just very like
the way poppy talks the way that child who who
who sort of makes, I don't know, he's made that
sort of intricate little wooden hand that pushes
the button and he's very proud of cleaning the
pipes or whatever. But it's all, do you know
what I mean? There's this sort of slight, from
moment to moment, it can't seem to quite make
up its mind like how babyish these babies are
or how, you know, kind of like adults in children's
bodies they are. And I'm not sure RTD ever quite
came down on a consistent. tone there there's
a moment where eric goes off to face um this
the bogeyman with you know armed with nothing
more than like a very blunt looking toy knife
and the first time i watched that i thought that's
a wee bit silly but you know he's he'd probably
be a bit more intelligent than that given what
we've seen already but actually what i realized
this time around was he's kind of um he's almost
embodying some of the qualities of the doctor
there because the doctor would do exactly that.
He'd take an intentionally useless weapon to
go and give an enemy a stern talking to, you
know, and then just throw the thing aside. So
there are possibly more nuanced things in it
than might first meet the eye. There's some very,
like, you know, people who hated the burping
wheelie bin must absolutely... to test the, I
don't know how to put it, the spaceship's propulsion
method at the end there. Yeah, anyway. But that,
yeah, I can roll my eyes a wee bit at that, but
also understand, look, it's just the fun and
frothy one against which you foreground some
introductory stuff, those key character beats
where the Doctor sort of... gives Ruby the key
and she agrees to travel with him. And she, she,
she demonstrates that she understands the stakes,
but wants to go anyway. And it's, it's an act
of self -agency and all that. So all that stuff
is, is done well. Those, those, those sort of
moments between the doctor and Ruby. And it's
very much, you know, it's, it's very much Russell
T. Davis doing that thing he's traditionally
done at the start of a season, which is, okay,
let's go, let's go really extra frothy with this
one. make it almost intentionally thin stuff
and then just build from there. The Autons are
a threat, but it's like you don't get much of
a sense of them or much of an exploration of
them. It's all about getting to know the Doctor
and Rose in that episode. So yeah, maybe it's
a similar approach here. Like you say, a relatively
thin story, but the focus is. on getting to know
these these characters um should we go on to
our second episode which is second episode in
the season uh the devil's chord yes uh which
has a lot more going on um and i know you've
got an interest in music so i don't know if that
like there was stuff that you picked up on in
in this one in particular but but yeah what were
your thoughts on The Devil's Code. I think it's
the one that definitely feels most Disney of
the whole season. There are other episodes where
you go, yeah, I can see what the new budget has
done for the show, but it doesn't feel intrinsically
Disney -ish. But this one somehow did. I think
something about the visual language of those
physical notes floating in the air and being
swizzled around and Maestro's own... and stylings
and everything. That could be, you know, somebody
ripped straight from a Disney cartoon, you know.
It's a very impressive piece of work. I like
it. I love the way it plays with music and that
business of going into the title sequence with
the, you know, and all that and then just gradually
fading in the music because here we are into
this realm of, you know, how would you describe
it? Reality has been... turned upside down and
and and there is a you know here we now really
begin the era of the of the uh overt fourth wall
break um it it bookends the thing you know we
get it there and we get it with the doctor at
the end going into a song and dance number and
even sort of giving a wink to the camera and
talking about non -non -diegetic music at one
stage um incidentally there's a thing there just
just speaking of the sort of musical side of
it It was actually my girlfriend pointed this
out to me, so I'm not going to take the credit
for this one. She knows a lot more about music
than I do, but she mentioned that 357, the room
that Nanny was in in the first, I think she said
that 357 is some sort of triad, like an upper
structure triad or something like that in music.
If you take the bass note as being one, then
your 357 gives you this sort of atonal chord,
which sort of, I guess, nearly is its own. little
uh mini harbinger of of what's to come um oh
one other thing by the way sorry not not to go
not to keep going back to the earlier ones but
there's a moment um in there's a moment in space
babies where the doctor picks up a spoon and
he goes that's a great word spoon um and then
and then in this one a spoon features again and
then what do we have in the finale you know,
a key moment with a spoon. So I think there are
subtle little things. But I'll tell you, one
oddity that I remember sort of absolutely obsessing
me at the time was like, is that a deliberate
thing about, okay, this appears to be Ruby's
first trip back to the past. It's not necessarily,
but it's strongly signaled that it is. and um
and yet here's here she is saying that it's that
it's june in her timeline june 2024 yeah there's
a bit of confusion about how much time has passed
because the line is very the line is very very
quick like almost like it was added in later
or something but it's like very peculiar because
you know obviously six months six months not
to have seen um not well Maybe I was reading
too much into it and assuming this was her first
trip to the past, but it sort of felt like that.
And then we get her first alien planet the following
week. And you're thinking, well, that's even
further on for her. So it's like minimum six
to seven months she's seen her first alien planet.
What have they been doing all this time? And
that began to make me, well, I know we're going
to talk at the end about theories we had at the
time. So I'm not leaning too heavily into that
stuff right now. But it did get my mind. taking
over on a few things um oh there's there's so
much so much stuff in this i love the fact we've
got oh i'll tell you what actually um there was
a clever thing in this um there's obviously that
the whole business about the bad the bad music
coming over to you know having entirely replaced
the good and and the disastrous um consequences
this will lead to you know um nuclear war eventually
because people don't have that outlet for for
their emotions but um There's a really clever
moment. I don't know if it's been mentioned elsewhere.
And maybe it wasn't intentional, but it seemed
to me that it was a clever thing. And I'm going
to just bring in at this stage as a bit of an
oblique but relevant reference, a big Finnish
audio story called The Perpetual Bond, in which
they manage to use a little bit of Beatles music.
sort of, by not using the actual Beatles music.
They used the opening, you know, the little French
anthem bit of All You Need Is Love. And they
managed to work that into the story in a really
clever way. And they do something similar here
where they have, when the doctor's racing around
trying to see if everybody's affected by this
virus of terrible music, he goes in at one stage
and the orchestra is beginning to record. what
what appears to be three blind mice but it's
the same it's these and that's also the same
little to me that was a way of sneaking in the
opening notes of of uh all you need is love because
it's the same as three blind mice and i just
thought oh that's that's clever they've done
that they've got that they've got beatles music
in without paying them a penny even though it's
not you know what i mean it's well the notes
um you know the notes at the end that they actually
you know at the climax were those anything were
those suggesting i'm not sure it'll probably
take a better expert on on the beatles than me
i i must admit i'm not uh i'm not steeped in
in all that but um uh it could well be um could
well be i did i did begin to wonder you know
when when the the doctor's having that conversation
with paul it's really dumb really well done when
they have the two separate sort of interviews
as it were with with uh ruby ruby talking to
John and the doctor talking to Paul and he says
you know sometimes late at night and it comes
from deep within I just have this sequence of
notes and it goes and he I meant to go and play
that on the piano and see if it if it sounded
like anything but I think that is ultimately
just what they play isn't it in the corridor
after the sort of music battle and everything
but yeah I mean this one i know i'm going to
kick myself after this for not having said like
a ton more things because i it's it's it's packed
with stuff i think i think it's incredible i
think they really sell very very well that moment
where the doctor it it's rare to see the doctor
absolutely like petrified but you get it in this
you get it at the moment where he realizes that
with each of these guys from the pantheon he's
gonna have as he puts it one trick once and he
he is thinking on his feet more than he's ever
had to in his life and when he's when he's used
up as one tricky he has no idea what he's going
to do next and that to me feels incredibly tense
and that feels like we really are getting into
realms where the doctor's not quite been before
i mean he feels out of his depth um you know
and it's it's and and then should he plays up
brilliantly like that moment where he's down
in the cellar hole in the holding the sonic aloft
and doing his one trick once. And that whole
sequence with the complete deafening of the world,
whatever he does there just cancels out all sound.
And that whole, the way they direct that, you
know, the silently smashing bottle and the tuning
fork being struck with no sound and all that,
it's really, really effective. Yeah, it's making
me think that, like, I did also like the fact
that, so this era, right from the starburst onwards
has set up a lot of things like the meeps boss
and um and the pantheon um but it hasn't strung
those out too much like coming out of season
one we still have the mysteries or questions
about mrs flarden and a few other bits but we
got a follow -up on the pantheon in the second
episode in the season like um you know and that
It sort of comes back in the finale as well.
And so I appreciated that, that, yeah, there's
loads of stuff teased, but it's not drawn out
to the point where, you know, you lose interest
in these things. All the Beatles themselves,
I think they were used really well, like just
the right amount. You have those initial conversations,
like you said, and then they come in to, you
know, save the day at the end. This is purely
like my sort of expectations looking at like
how much they were featured in the promotion
before the broadcast. But I think I had in my
head that this was going to be much more of like
like along the lines of, you know, those previous
RTD celebrity historicals. We spend a lot of
time with those characters that, you know, we
were going to meet all four of the Beatles and
they were going to be. like sort of main characters
in this story um whereas you know it works fine
with them weaving in and out as they did um but
that was one thing that i was sort of expecting
going in going in that didn't didn't pan out
um what else was this the one we had a reference
to to susan was this when they're on the rooftop
yeah well that's first first of all yeah you're
right he um And he starts talking about how he
and his granddaughter lived just over there and
how they'd just been through the great foggy
winter of 1962 and all that. And Ruby's just
standing there kind of agape at the fact that
he's just dropped this fact. There's a really
odd moment there, actually, where the doctor,
having said to her, you know, what happened to
my granddaughter? Well, she probably got killed
in the Time War. And then he laughs in a really
strange way. It's like, what's funny about that,
doctor? But I think when I look at it again,
right, I kind of think. that's a really interesting
acting choice and it's sort of playing the truth
of that because you know you're either gonna
laugh you're gonna cry it's it's like it's chaotic
forces of of of your you know the emotions just
spilling over in that uh but but he's i guess
he's sort of um I don't know, for Ruby's benefit,
he laughs rather than cries, you know, but it's
a curious one that, you know, it's a choice.
Clearly it's a choice, but it definitely hits
oddly, memorably, but oddly. We also have the
billboard, you know, with the very early version
of what, what is it? The carolers, who will eventually
go on to be John Smith and the common men. And
so there's... There seem to be further little,
I guess what will ultimately turn out to be red
herrings, or are they, as far as Susan is concerned?
Certainly there were red herrings this season.
I'll just mention, because I know we need to
move on in a moment, but in terms of the fourth
wall stuff, it's not just what they do with the
music and those references to non -diegetic and
those things. We also have... uh it's interesting
that in this we actually get uh we get june hudson
playing a part and we get um bodger limbs son
if i remember correctly as the as the music instructor
and i don't know this began to see things in
my head that either ultimately went nowhere or
are yet still to go somewhere although i have
anyway we're going to touch we're going to touch
on that soon i know but but um uh yeah just just
in case i don't remember to list them all as
bullet points at the end these were some of the
things coming into my awareness I was thinking
are they doing some really clever stuff here
or is it just stuff you know it's just like June
Hudson wanted to be in it so you know they weren't
telegraphing anything intentionally you know
there wasn't some complex meta plan it was just
okay June Hudson wanted to be involved and Roger
Lim's son happened to be an actor who and it
was nice to give him a part or whatever but Yeah,
and the episode's themed around music, so, yeah,
sort of out of universe, it makes sense. Also,
one final thing, although it's set in 1963, there's
a kind of, and this is a game where it maybe
feels a wee bit more Disney's than some of the
others, there's something about some of their
choices. They've got, like, obviously the Abbey
Road cover, and I understand why they've done
that, but since that belongs a bit more to the
late end of the 60s. um but that you know it
already has that feel out in the street with
the beetle park and everything and then um they've
got uh those very vibrantly colored costumes
in the dance sequence at the end and everything
uh to be 1963 i mean in my head 1963 isn't black
and white anyway but but you know it it should
feel i don't know somehow in my head it should
feel a bit less colorful than that but maybe
it wasn't you know maybe that's just my um you
know my my from having watched William Hartnell's
era or something. Yeah. Yeah, I know what you
mean. Maybe that was like a conscious choice
about tone as well. And it obviously got a lot
more colourful in the final scene. So they were
probably, I think they were playing with the
amount of colour as well as things went through.
Oh, and the first overt mention of although I
know we had had Susan twist before, but this
was the first time they really hammered on that
notion of the twist at the end and what was going
on, you know, it's like big, big neon signposted
that if we hadn't spotted it already sort of
thing. So that's where, that's where things started
to get very interesting in terms of what the
heck is going on. Yeah. And again, like adding
fuel to theories about in and out of universe
connections and, like metatextual references
like referencing the the actor's name um but
uh yeah yeah there's loads more we can say about
this one i'm sure but should we should we go
on to our third episode of the season which is
boom and this is steven moffat coming back to
to doctor who not as a showrunner but again like
the first rtd era as a writer um I really enjoyed
this one. I don't have loads and loads to say
about it, though, but it was just like a really
solid concept. I think Stephen Moffat talked
about pitching lots of ideas and being told by
Russell T Davies that, oh, you've done that,
you've done that, and then landing on this one.
Yeah, and I think it's a great sort of concept.
It's realized really well. You get into it very
quickly. It doesn't waste a lot of time. getting
into the setup is it is it just before the credits
or just after that the doctor stops steps on
the landmine it's just before it's like you see
the lights sort of spin around and then his eyes
into the credits yeah that that's that's i think
a really good example of um like post 2005 doctor
who using the pre -credits section to to squeeze
in a cliffhanger um and to to get like a kind
of like classic series cliffhanger in there um
like something really exciting that ramps up
the tension and uh and then you go away for a
minute or two and rather than waiting a week
to see the next episode you know you see it play
out after the credits but um yeah i like those
those cold opens in the post 2005 series that
have like a really strong compelling lead in
like that um But yeah, what were your impressions
of this one, either on first viewing or if that
has changed with a rewatch? First viewing and
every subsequent viewing, I have just loved this
thing. It is, I love, I just love the beautiful
simplicity of that idea and it builds entirely
around this one moment, like this one sustained
moment of tension. It's just, it's incredibly
mesmerizing. and and yet agony to watch and the
doctor sort of getting his zen on as you as you
as i'm sorry as he puts it is um you know he
has to use every reserve available to him to
to stay as centered and as calm as he can even
while awful things are happening you know ruby
gets shot at one point um he's you know I love
that moment where Ruby first comes out of the
TARDIS and he's singing the Skyboat song and
he uses poetry and songs to sort of you know
just grind himself and pull himself out of the
immediate now and into more abstract realms but
the whole time he's just right on this knife
edge the whole way through and I think it's I
think as good as they have been up to that point,
I think that was the strongest. A huge section
of it is just almost like a two -hander for them.
And the way she plays that scene where she hands
over the urn, let's say, the squashed, the smelted
body thing to him. And he's going to counterbalance
himself. And she says, no, I need a beat. So
it comes back to her kind of musical side again.
This is one where, I mean, and Shidi gets over
-criticized, I think, at times for being the
doctor who cries all the time. But I think in
this one... Yeah, it's the one where it's justified.
Most justified because, yeah, he's controlling.
You know, he needs it. He actually needs it to
balance himself out. Otherwise, he's literally
going to explode, you know, and he's going to
take half the planet with him. We get the introduction,
of course, of... uh mundy flynn who you know
clearly has has as we now know from the season
two trailer um will go on to have a connective
significance how loose or or or intricate that
connection is we don't yet know but there's there's
an overtly signaled um connection um and uh that's
very interesting and she comes in and plays that
part very, very well. So you can see absolutely
why they looked at her and went, can she be given
something else? Can we have her more full time?
And yeah, I just think that is such a, it's such
a, it sounds a really obvious thing to say, but
it's such a Moffat -y script. You kind of go,
yeah, he has this. um down to fine art you know
it's very polished um i love some of the things
i don't know whether he has scripted it like
this or whether and should he kind of workshopped
it or whatever but there's moments where this
doctor says certain things where you go i can't
imagine any other doctor saying that it's just
it's like that moment where he's like do you
get get get it you know or um I can't do this
or a patois or whatever, but at some point he
refers to Faith Gill or whatever. He's got these
ways of putting things. You go, yeah, that's
absolutely unique to his doctor. And yeah, I
love, there's something about the rhythms of
the speech in it, the tension of it, the way
those moments play out. And he has paced it just
beautifully. one thing layers on top of another
and then it hits a total crisis point and of
course the old tablecloth trick at the end it's
a little bit the one sort of slight weakness
of it but I can forgive it this because obviously
we're going to have to pull the cat out of the
bag somehow but you know the dad sort of using
his dad skills to subvert the system is you know
it's veering into that sort of same territory
as you know daddy's coming home or whatever from
closing time that kind of it's it's there's a
very fine line between um an emotional uh payoff
and something that's just pure cringe but i think
he stays just the right side of the line there
um and the sort of kiss kiss payoff and all that
is i think like there's i think what makes that
work for me is that like a lot of this episode
is quite brutal and grim so it's it's it's kind
of balancing things out to have a little bit
of sort of sweet saccharine resolution because
there's some awful stuff that happens to people
leading up to that. There's a beautiful thing
at the end where the Doctor says snow isn't snow
until it falls and I just love the poetry of
that. It sort of slightly echoes Paul Cornell's
thing about two snowflakes were the same long
ago in an English spring from the end of the
human nature, the book version of human nature.
I don't know whether Moffat has absorbed some
of these little influences and then subconsciously
or even consciously put them in. But yeah, and
then he quotes Philip Larkin at the end as well.
So that's nice. Yeah, there's lots of, and at
one stage the doctor's reciting this poem, you
know, which is clearly to do with his own experiences.
stealing of the moon and the president's wife
and all that stuff and um yeah there's just some
really just interesting stuff thrown in there
while he's while he's doing his whole stream
of consciousness to to to stay grand he's using
every everything he's got in his in his his personal
mental armory there and and um it it's it's fascinating
to watch and i i think uh Yeah, it works incredibly
well. The other thing I mustn't forget to mention
is this was Doctor Who's first use, wasn't it?
What do you call that piece of kit, the big wall?
I don't know if it was... The thing I'm thinking
of is the volume, but I don't know if this was
exactly... It was the same kind of thing, that
sort of video wall. But yeah, I was thinking
of exactly that because I think Moffat's talked
a lot in interviews about how, in theory, this
was going to be the cheap episode of very...
enclosed uh you know one set uh limited cast
um but he's also said this thing about you know
there's no such thing as a cheap uh episode and
did we talk about this last time about heaven
you know like things like that but like actually
there's so much more work that needs to go into
like coverage and editing and and and and it's
it's sort of other things take the place of the
things that you're saving money on um but yes
this was and it comes back in the finale in other
places but they that that whole battlefield landscape
was created on those those screens yeah um it
seems to be one of those ones where um different
people's eyes seem to work a different way ways
for this because for me i was absolutely sold
on it like i there was very very few shots in
that where i thought yeah that looks like a person
stood in front of a screen once or twice perhaps
but i mean you know like if we can sit as fans
as we do and watch i don't know like planet of
giants you know underworld is the yeah the big
giant photographic Yeah, exactly. We can watch
all these things, and then you see that it's
streets ahead, and you go, well, I can forgive
it, the odd moment of two -dimensionality. And
then there's whole other sequences where stuff
that you know must be happening just on a flat
wall looks absolutely like it's in three dimensions.
There's a sort of a phalanx of things that comes
across the sky and does the cleaning up of the
battlefield and so on, and it looks for all the
world. Yeah, I noticed that watching it, re -watching
it, that shot looked really good. And I think
they did a lot of this with the Meep and the
Wrath Warriors in the previous specials, like
doing as much as they can practically. So yes,
they might be using this big screen, but they're
still dressing and building enough of the set
in the foreground with real stuff to sell it
for me anyway, like it didn't. take me out of
it at all one thing i really uh like about this
is is the doctor's music is on faith towards
the end because he sounds quite almost bitter
and cynical about it you know yeah at one stage
in his his most stressed out moment describes
faith as this radio excuse for not having to
actually think about things you know but then
at the end he admits that as much as he doesn't
like faith he he needs it so there's a beautiful
balance to that And, you know, he's a man of
willful contradiction, the doctor, anyway. So
I just kind of love the way that was done and
the exact language used around it. And it's very
respectful of believers and non -believers alike,
I guess, in that respect. I think Moffat is quite
deft and thoughtful in the way he approaches
that kind of topic. Yeah. Oh, and one final thing.
You know, you mentioned, obviously, this was
this was Moffat's pitch like what if the doctor
does that thing he did in Genesis of the Daleks
but we just turn that into 50 minutes well this
was another thing that got my brain working around
the whole hmm are they are they deliberately
you know is this the show dropping yet another
meta thing in but anyway I'll try and tie that
all up in a bow at the end of it when we get
to our yeah what was your theory conversation
here and the stuff about religion like Moffat
had done a lot of that with the the church of
the silence and in a way he's like doing more
world building on top of that with filling God
and, and all of this. But yeah, like, like you
said, I feel like he engages with it more directly
in this episode than he has done in the past.
Like, you know, lines like, you know, faith being
an excuse for not thinking. And it feels like
more like on the nose than it was in the past
where it was more dancing around it, which is
like a reference to the church of. the silence
or whatever um and uh although we did have like
the the anglican soldiers they that they're a
returning element as well aren't they because
they popped up in previous stories yeah we had
those guys in um oh gosh good man goes to war
and uh was it in the angels oh yeah of course
yeah the first one that matt shot wasn't it the
old uh yeah that one so yeah uh well Speaking
of which, shall we come on to 73 yards? I always
get the number wrong. It is 73. 73, yeah. Sometimes
I say 43 and I've no idea why. So it is 73. And
I believe this was the first thing that Mitty
Gibson shot, which is pretty impressive given
how much is going on in this episode. It's a
Dr. Light episode because they were working around.
um and shoot his availability uh for this first
run um but i think this is this is the one where
there's some really really obvious connections
with years and years which is like one of the
big things that um that russell davis had done
in between his two periods on doctor who um so
you can really see a lot of that coming through
um uh but it's also It's also like, yeah, like
taking that necessity of we don't have the actor
who's our lead available for the whole run, but
really, really turning it into a virtue and showcasing
Ruby as a character and using the absence of
the Doctor as this really unsettling threat that
catapults her into this nightmarish world. It's
sort of like... When I was re -watching it, you
can make a lot of connections to turn left, but
it's done in an almost more disturbingly real
-world way. It's about very real political positions,
and there's a really clear hint of sexual violence
or some sort of abuse with one of the assistants
in the later half of the episode. um but yeah
i thought there was loads loads going on in this
one uh so one thing that generated a lot of discussion
was like the resolution but before we get on
to how it was all tied up what were your overall
impressions of this this episode i really really
like this um there were complaints at the time
that we'd had you know whether we were about
to have a doctor you know this and and an episode
we'll talk about next week the very next one
sort of put doctor light episodes back to back
but for me not really a problem because the following
one dot and bubble which we'll get to um i think
you know you I think it's a fan thing to be aware
there was less shooting time for Intuiti than
necessarily... You feel their presence because
they're always popping up in the messages. That's
right. So they get the most out of their shooting
days that they did have. But in this one, I think
just unavoidably, it was going to have to be
Ruby carrying it all on her own shoulders. They
turned that into very much a feature, not a bug.
It's very... We talked about how... Last week,
or last episode, we discussed this. We were talking
about what our expectations of what Russell T.
Davis would bring back into the show from how
he'd evolved as a writer. And in the meantime,
of course, he'd done years and years. And we
got a very, I think this is, maybe you already
said this. Apologies if you did just a moment
ago. But, you know, I think it's the most years
and years influence feeling episode of the season.
And there's even a wee touch of something like
the second coming there, because there's a bit
where Roger William is kind of laughing malevolently,
and you see almost like those little white dots
in his eyes. It's like that kind of demonic kind
of feel to him, and you see that he is the absolute
monster that he is implied to be. There is something
deeply unsettling about it, and yet it's kind
of... There's a warmth to it as well. Ruby's
story, the bit I particularly love is that montage
you get in the middle where they've chosen an
old Libby Siffrey song and they just play out
her sort of coming to terms with being halted
by this phenomenon and almost in the end making
peace with it. It becomes an old friend and then
she realises it's... at some point she has this
revelation um of what it all means and and and
she goes you know come on we have work to do
and she's talking to the the apparition and um
but she looks back at the camera at that point
so that's like another i noticed i nearly noticed
that this time how she looks right at the camera
in that moment of we've got work to do and again
that's like a bit of a fourth wall yeah um uh
i i know it's It is a slight, it's one of those
things we're slightly inclined to roll our eyes
at where we say, okay, how many years is Ruby
supposed to have aged by now? And, you know,
I guess there's only two ways you can really
do that. You either add prosthetics to somebody
which is never an entirely successful venture,
or you do what they did here, sort of style her
hair differently. Give her some big glasses.
But on the other hand, it is the future. So,
like, you know, you see, you know, when she's
looking outside her window there with a glass
of wine toasting her sort of frenemy there, you
know, there are little nice touches like holograms,
like Blade Runner type of holograms going on
in the sky off in the background. And you think,
well, you know, maybe the average, you know,
40 -year -old does look like a 20 -year -old
by that point because there's technological advances.
So, you know, there's things like that. But yeah,
I mean, I didn't get too distracted by stuff
like that because I think the story itself is
so compelling. I think it's really effectively
written. And yeah, it's the one where Russell
T. Davis sort of manages to get under your skin.
There's a whole, you know, it's sort of like
darkly comedic, you know, that whole business
with the Welsh pub and the punters all. playing
a collective practical joke on Ruby because they
want to get back at the English for being so
maybe stereotyping in how they view these Welsh
villagers, you know. So that stuff's kind of
scary and fun at the same time. But yeah, I just
love the feel of it. I love that moment. There's
something about the exterior shots have been
filmed in December, as I believe it was. what
that adds in terms of the quality of the light
and the snow gently coming down. And I don't
know if that on that occasion was real snow or
ruby snow, but we have it nonetheless. And then,
yeah, Susan Twist's appearance in that one is
a really interesting one because it's her at
her most benevolent, I guess, and friendly. And
you start to think like, what is going on here?
Like, you know, why is she so... different each
time um and this is the point at which like she'd
made several appearances and it was like okay
they haven't just reused an actor that they liked
there's yeah there's some significance to to
this yeah so but the way that one wraps up um
with the the return to the you know the book
ending at the end I love that little payoff where
where he says oh yeah you never mentioned the
third time you were you were here in Wales and
she just sort of says oh I suppose it must have
been now, which is just the last lingering awareness
of the reset timeline. And on re -watching it,
it seems really clear to me on a re -watch that
that is meant to be her. But I remember watching
it the first time around and it felt more ambiguous
or vague or there was some wriggle room of is
that her or is the woman that she's seeing some
other sort of external... entity that's jumping
back in time but yeah looking at the way that
the voiceover goes over the view of our hands
moving it's it's older ruby telling her younger
self how to avoid this timeline it's also one
of those um in doctor who terms only only occasional
episodes where really there's just a sort of
unresolved ambiguity as to what the whole causation
of it was, really. Yeah, the fairy circle has
never come to be. Russell, I remember it was
driving some people absolutely bonkers, and there
was quite a divide between the people who said,
look, it doesn't need to be explained, and those
who were saying, no, it absolutely does. But
I kind of tend to sit on the side of, look, if
it's intentional and well done ambiguity, and
half the power is in its mysteriousness, Then
just take it for what it is and enjoy the atmosphere
and the journey. Well, that's the other thing
that's not explained is how her older self can
loop back. And when we get to the finale, it
suggests that there's something to do with the
TARDIS because of that distance of the perception
filter. But how does she actually even manage
to go back and communicate with herself? Talking
of the TARDIS, I remember one of the things I
was thinking when I first watched it. I don't
really think this now, but when I first watched
it, it genuinely was in my mind that, you know,
when she first goes to the TARDIS there, you
know, he's disappeared. And she checks, you know,
around the back and then she goes to the front
doors and she's kind of talking. She goes back
a day later and she's talking to him through
the doors and going, look, maybe this is something
you just sometimes do and you're in there. But
I would really love to travel with you again.
And if you ever want to do that, I'm here. But
it occurred to me that he could very well be
on the other side of those doors. And for some
reason, he just needs to... It is one possible
explanation, actually, that he did stay in there
and that having perceived something that needed
to loop and couldn't interfere in, he... he did
what he needed to do and maybe did nudge things
with the TARDIS from within or whatever. I don't
know. I lean towards that not being the case
now, but I like the fact that it's at least one
of a number of possibilities. And on the face
of it, you could take it as quite a cruel thing,
but maybe just one of those needful things that
the Doctor just has to do to get things back
on track. I feel like he would have come, especially
this Doctor, I feel like he would have come clean
after it was all resolved. Yeah, possibly. Then,
as he will later go on to say, there are no unkind
ways to do the necessary to save someone or to
save a situation. So, yeah, I don't know. One
image I really love is just the TARDIS on that
cliff top. I know I talked about this last week,
but when David Tennant had his whole speech about
what happens to the TARDIS when it goes off.
And, you know, when the hads is triggered and
it goes off somewhere and then centuries come
and go and civilizations rise and fall. And we
get that sort of in miniature here with the TARDIS
just sitting there for decades. And it becomes
this, it's something really moving about the
fact that people come and leave flowers there
and nobody really knows why. But there's probably
this just residual gratitude in people for something
that they intuitively recognize to be, you know,
associated with it's the iconography of the guy
who saved the universe more times than anyone
can count and they they feel it more than know
it you know um so yeah there's a lot of poetry
and atmosphere in it and i just love i just i
really i just i could watch it over and over
and over again and just um so so one of our like
wrap -up questions was like which which of these
um these five episodes is your favorite and i
really struggle to answer that question and not
to be too negative but it's like space babies
is the weak one for me or the or the least good
it's it's like okay um i'd then place uh like
church on ruby road it's like that solid intro
but these last three i really like all three
of them devil's cord boom and um 73 yards and
i feel like they they're all really good and
interesting in different ways um so i really
struggle to rank those last three but do you
have a favorite that jumps out it's similar to
yourself i would say space babies yeah i i couldn't
argue with you that that's the weakest as much
as i seem to enjoy it more than some other people
and maybe you do as well and uh Then I would
put Church next and then The Devil's Chord would
be like a strong 8 out of 10 for me. But those
two, Boom and 73 Yards, sit like shoulder to
shoulder as just like, certainly out of the first
half of this season, the strongest ones, like
they're 9 or 10 out of 10 for me. They just hold
up to repeated view time and time again. and
just been for the ride every time you know just
mesmerized yeah and and given okay so we're both
a bit mixed on space babies but maybe see like
some some value in it but um like more than more
than others might but one other question we had
is like if there was a someone new to doctor
who or hadn't watched it in ages where would
you tell them to start with this new era would
it be the star beast or Church and Ruby Road,
or would it be Space Babies? I think I'd go with
Church. I think I'd have to go with Church and
Ruby Road on that one. I just think it's the
cleanest kind of break. And Space Babies is...
I'm not saying it's too weak an episode to start
with, but I wouldn't want... If it was a betting
round, I wouldn't fancy my chances of getting
somebody to watch a further episode after Space
Babies. They might, you know, depend, because
everybody's got radically different tastes. of
what they like out of their doctor who and you
could show some everybody's had the experience
of well well not everybody but a number of fans
like what i've tried over the years to sort of
get some not we into watching doctor who and
you choose you think that's city of death surely
that's the one you show them city of death and
they just five minutes and it's like i can't
you know and you're going are you kidding me
this is like one of the best things ever made
but um yes maybe i could have shown them paradise
towers and they'd have been like right Give me
everything else. I don't know. It's a strange
alchemy, that whole business. But yes, church
to me feels like the one where you go, right,
you're not being presented with, as it were,
a choice of doctors, you know, because somebody
watching the tenant ones and then sort of seeing
and should he come in, it's like maybe they were
just getting, maybe they were just warming up
the tenant, you know, somebody new. And then
they're given this whole other Doctor and they're
like, oh, but I want to know more about this
other guy and I know he's got older episodes,
so maybe they're kind of pulled back towards
that instead of forwards towards the shitty.
Whereas with Church and Ruby Road, it's like
you're giving him fresh out of the box and kind
of firing on all cylinders and showing a lot
of range. Yeah, I think I agree that Church is
the most solid introduction. The only wrinkle
is that there are all these little bits that
are set up in those tenant specials and one of
the big ones is the the weakening of the walls
of reality with salt and it's not essential but
maybe maybe the ideal order is like non -linear
is to start with church on ruby road and go forward
through that first season and then if you're
really enjoying it and waiting for the next season
go back and like almost as a prequel fill in
those um yeah those uh those tenant specials
and then go back to the classic series if you
want but uh yeah church on bruby road is that
sort of it's it's not overly laden with the history
of the show unlike when we got onto the the finale
which is sort of the opposite um and because
the salt because because a new fan starting there
and i mean a completely new fan starting there
has no awareness that doctor has tended not to
lean quite so far into the supernatural before
it's not a problem for them it doesn't seem as
this you know and then then they can discover
if they dip back in that it used to be a bit
more so it's different yeah so one last question
before we we wrap up and it's that one that we've
been sort of skirting around is so when we were
watching this first time around we were halfway
through the season we had these new little uh
you know new choices about inclusion of music
and playing around with lines about it being
non -diegetic and people looking to camera and
what were the what were the theories that were
sort of in the air about where this was all going
um i know that my own personal theory which i
think you know substantially came just from my
my own madness but but i think i picked up bits
and pieces from from you know discussions on
gallifrey race and so on as well and assimilated
bits of that in a magpie fashion into this great
unified theory um and basically what i was thinking
was um that that the show was trying to build
up a was seeding in the whole way along this
notion that was going to resolve in in a in a
a blind siding um to the casual view or any way
revelation that that doctor who actually is a
tv program and the doctor doesn't know that he's
been in this tv program which of course would
not ultimately turn out to be the case but that's
what he would be set up at the end of season
to believe and i even had this vision that um
you know, like Stephen Powell was going to walk
in and sort of, and you'd pull back and it'd
be cameras sitting there and, you know, mad stuff
like that, you know, in Bad Wolf Studios. It's
not unprecedented. There's, you know, like Deep
Space Nine and Buffy and I'm sure loads of other
shows have done that. Maybe not as a series long
arc, but they've, like a lot of these sci -fi
shows have had that one episode that sort of
plays with the idea of, you know, what if this
is all in? our lead character's head or you know
what if this is a show that they've they've written
and it's sort of become their imagined reality
and so yeah it's not completely out there i'll
tell you what the um the real kind of i know
russell t this is where particularly took hold
of my head as a very uh plausible possibility
and then it's my own fault that it ran you know
the theory absolutely ran away with me and i
got a bit too fixated and turned every non -relevant
detail into something of significance i could
start listening to them all but but it would
be it would take all night but um there's i know
russell t davis is a big fan of um or at least
a big advocate of big finish i know he's listened
to a lot of big finish and it wouldn't necessarily
be just doctor who stuff and there's a story
it's a sapphire and steel story called the mystery
of the missing hour and i wondered had he heard
that or had he taken that kind of idea Well,
I guess this is a spoiler for anyone who hasn't
heard that, but then the chances of anybody who's
listening to this wanting to hear it is probably
relatively slim, you know, or be able to get
hold of it at this point. But it's a story in
which the twist is revealed to be that the people
in this audio drama are actually in. they're
trapped in a recording studio acting out these
parts and they don't even know it you know so
they've become their sort of fictional counterparts
but they're also doing things like they begin
to realize as they come as they gain awareness
of the fact that for instance actors are doubling
up and things like that and then no two people
can talk at this you know two particular Characters
can't talk at the same time because it's the
same actor. And all this sort of starts to break
down their conditioning so they begin to realise
where they are and what's been going on. And
so I tried to look for the sort of television
equivalence in this season because I thought
they were starting to see that in, you know,
with... The non -diegetic line. Yeah, non -diegetic
was one example. I mean, just to use a totally
random one, at the end of Boom... there's a moment
where the doctor is standing at the TARDIS door
talking about, you know, snow isn't snow until
it falls and so on. And he's rummaging around
in his pockets looking distracted and he's clearly
after, he's clearly looking for the key, the
TARDIS key. But he looks sort of distracted by
a thought, like something's not quite adding
up for him. And then Ruby just hands him the
TARDIS key from her pocket to him and he goes
and unlocks the door. And in that moment... completely
incorrectly as it turns out, I was going, that's
the one that sells it for me. I think I'm all
to something with this theory because what they've
done there is they've very cleverly given you
a moment where a prop that's shared, you know,
a single prop that's shared between two actors
is shown, literally been handed across on camera.
And against this sort of... You could argue a
slightly intentionally fakey -looking background
with the volume or whatever you want to call
that thing. I think it was still really well
done, but if you were the sort of person who
thought it maybe looked a bit set -like, you
could say this is TV telegraphing itself as TV.
Now, obviously, the way the series ultimately
went, I was initially very disappointed because
none of the steering got blown out of the water
completely down the line. Or it's still to play
out in a later season, but I don't think that
that's where we're going anymore. Yeah, let's
definitely come back to that in our next episode
because, yes, it was blown out of the water by
the end of season one, but if you look at the
season two trailer, there's fresh stuff that
you could use as fuel to think about the walls
of reality being. No, I've learned my lesson.
It's just that you're right to be that the candy
man's coming back or something. No, I'm thinking
in particular of that cartoon character that's
featured in the new trailer in season two. There's
something literally there about a fictional character
jumping out of a screen. But yeah, we'll see.
We'll see soon. At the time of recording, just
a few... weeks off um yeah from the new series
okay all right uh well we'll we'll leave it there
we've uh we've got the second half of the the
series to jump into and and like i said when
we cover that second half and joy to the world
which i think will be a nice uh which is one
that you know you were really positive on and
i i liked a lot as well and that'll be a nice
uh nice one to end on and then we'll talk a little
bit about all my homework this time instead of
uh yeah and then we'll we'll do a little bit
of speculation and looking forward to season
two as well and uh and thoughts and then yeah
let's let's see whether our predictions for season
two pan out or not over the next couple of months
um but uh yeah so Thanks very much for joining
me again for this look back at the middle part
of RTD2 so far. And yes, we will see you soon
for part three.