WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.919
You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality

00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:05.060
Hello and welcome back to the second in our short

00:01:05.060 --> 00:01:10.420
series looking back at the second RTD era of

00:01:10.420 --> 00:01:13.719
Doctor Who. Last time we looked at the three

00:01:13.719 --> 00:01:18.579
David Tennant 14th Doctor specials and this time

00:01:18.579 --> 00:01:23.340
I'm joined by Mark again to go through the first

00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:29.209
half of season one. of the 15th Doctor's era,

00:01:29.370 --> 00:01:31.989
and we're also going to look at the church on

00:01:31.989 --> 00:01:35.109
Ruby Road before we get into the season as well.

00:01:37.109 --> 00:01:42.510
Shall we jump right in and start off with the

00:01:42.510 --> 00:01:46.010
church on Ruby Road? So this was our introduction

00:01:46.010 --> 00:01:49.370
to the 15th Doctor, although we'd seen him in

00:01:49.370 --> 00:01:54.189
the previous episode in The Giggle. What were

00:01:54.189 --> 00:01:56.260
your impressions of this when... You watched

00:01:56.260 --> 00:02:02.939
it first. Really enjoyed it. It is not my favourite

00:02:02.939 --> 00:02:06.280
of the two Intudy specials we've had so far,

00:02:06.379 --> 00:02:08.800
the Christmas specials. Joy to the World ended

00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:12.439
up being my all -time favourite Christmas special.

00:02:12.500 --> 00:02:14.419
We'll talk about that when we get there. But

00:02:14.419 --> 00:02:20.219
this thing was, yeah, I just found it very moving.

00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:25.900
I thought it was a great showcase for... Because,

00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:30.719
you know, as much as he got a significant part

00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:36.080
in and really shown in his sort of final, you

00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:37.360
know, what does he appear in there? The final

00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:42.240
15 minutes of the last Tenant special there.

00:02:43.219 --> 00:02:47.159
This was really him, I guess, just appearing

00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:49.919
without ceremony. There he is, you know, Ruby

00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:52.879
first sees him at the club dancing and everything.

00:02:54.650 --> 00:02:58.870
It's very much just the doctor back to, he's

00:02:58.870 --> 00:03:02.050
post -therapy, but any viewer starting there

00:03:02.050 --> 00:03:03.830
wouldn't know that. They just see this freewheeling

00:03:03.830 --> 00:03:07.889
guy. He takes things as he finds them. He's a

00:03:07.889 --> 00:03:13.069
pure soul. He's an adventurer. And he's kind.

00:03:13.270 --> 00:03:16.090
And all these qualities come pouring out of him

00:03:16.090 --> 00:03:19.030
through the whole thing. I think as a showcase

00:03:19.030 --> 00:03:22.870
for... and shitty is the new lead i think it

00:03:22.870 --> 00:03:27.150
it served him very well um i think the the bond

00:03:27.150 --> 00:03:30.830
with ruby is is there straight away you know

00:03:30.830 --> 00:03:32.770
you see you see how well they work together as

00:03:32.770 --> 00:03:35.669
a team there's great chemistry there in my opinion

00:03:35.669 --> 00:03:40.229
um the the storyline with the goblins and so

00:03:40.229 --> 00:03:45.469
on um it's fun you know and it's it's also an

00:03:45.469 --> 00:03:47.930
excuse to do sort of really just crazy stuff

00:03:47.930 --> 00:03:50.819
um including song and dance in the middle of

00:03:50.819 --> 00:03:55.020
it um but the the real emotional heart of the

00:03:55.020 --> 00:03:58.340
thing for me lies in a lot of the time just um

00:03:58.340 --> 00:04:01.180
it's amazing how much of it takes place within

00:04:01.180 --> 00:04:04.280
the stillness of that flat actually at times

00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:07.699
and but but it just allows the thing to breathe

00:04:07.699 --> 00:04:11.819
i love it when a Doctor Who episode, a regular

00:04:11.819 --> 00:04:13.819
episode or a special just has allowed time to

00:04:13.819 --> 00:04:16.040
really breathe and let those emotional beats

00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:18.579
play out. And there's moments in that where the

00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:22.660
Doctor is talking about his recent discovery

00:04:22.660 --> 00:04:24.579
of having been adopted and being able to relate

00:04:24.579 --> 00:04:29.420
to these adopted kids. And when history is set

00:04:29.420 --> 00:04:31.220
on the wrong track because of the Goblin's interference,

00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:38.300
we get the first of many, you know, tears from

00:04:38.300 --> 00:04:40.500
and I know some people sort of have rolled their

00:04:40.500 --> 00:04:44.959
eyes at how much he cries it's sort of in every

00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:48.579
episode really but I think what that is is he

00:04:48.579 --> 00:04:52.920
processes because he is the post therapy doctor

00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:56.300
he's learnt to have healthy you know in real

00:04:56.300 --> 00:05:00.519
time processing of things that hit him you know

00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:06.360
hit him hard or that have real significance to

00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.560
him so Yeah, and, you know, it obviously introduces

00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.680
quite a few significant elements going forward.

00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:18.459
We've got Mrs. Flood. We've got Cherry and, oh,

00:05:18.500 --> 00:05:20.500
I'm so sorry, her name's gone out of my head,

00:05:20.660 --> 00:05:25.620
Ruby's adoptive mother. And, yeah, so that whole

00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:27.540
setup's there. There's a bit of mystery being

00:05:27.540 --> 00:05:32.259
seeded in. There's proper Christmassy vibes at

00:05:32.259 --> 00:05:36.019
the end. We get the total campery of... A Christmas

00:05:36.019 --> 00:05:39.060
tree nearly falling on Davina McCall. Viewers

00:05:39.060 --> 00:05:41.560
in America probably shrugging at that one. I

00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:43.680
don't know, but it doesn't matter. By the time

00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:45.199
we get there, hopefully they've had enough fun

00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:47.899
with the thing not to be too confused and they

00:05:47.899 --> 00:05:50.980
can understand it's a celebrity, no one over

00:05:50.980 --> 00:05:53.360
here. Yeah, no, it left a good impression on

00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:56.360
me and a great start for the Doctor and Ruby.

00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.000
Yeah, yeah. And he picked up on one of the bits

00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.720
I thought was interesting, which we talked about

00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.899
with Wild Blue Yonder, the way that... rtd is

00:06:05.899 --> 00:06:09.480
picking up the timeless child thing and actually

00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:12.379
building on it and like making it really rooted

00:06:12.379 --> 00:06:17.120
in like um like real relatable emotional situations

00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:22.519
like adoption um and that's really interesting

00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:24.379
because i think that's where chris chibnall's

00:06:24.379 --> 00:06:26.620
interest in it might have come from originally

00:06:26.620 --> 00:06:31.459
but it almost gets expressed if i'm i don't know

00:06:31.459 --> 00:06:33.040
if i'm misremembering or if i remember him talking

00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:36.620
about you know his own personal experiences and

00:06:36.620 --> 00:06:40.079
interviews, but it feels like it's only in this

00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:42.560
era that it's actually made explicit that connection

00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:48.860
or is brought to the fore a bit more. Yeah, no,

00:06:48.899 --> 00:06:51.360
he definitely did talk of that, his own adoption

00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:54.600
experience and wanting to write a storyline around

00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:56.879
that. And yet, you're right, I think RTT has

00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:03.000
given it the most wit, you know, or I think has

00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.420
sort of... um who teased the most out of that

00:07:06.420 --> 00:07:08.779
in terms of in terms of just showing that the

00:07:08.779 --> 00:07:12.300
you know the emotional uh effects of that rather

00:07:12.300 --> 00:07:14.899
than just sort of stating it as a narrative fact

00:07:14.899 --> 00:07:18.259
um i think that's what chibnall was going for

00:07:18.259 --> 00:07:21.180
but he he didn't he didn't necessarily hit all

00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:25.740
the you know hit all the right very laudable

00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:27.579
intent but maybe not as well executed as what

00:07:27.579 --> 00:07:32.540
rtd has later layered onto it. So anyway. Yeah,

00:07:32.579 --> 00:07:34.199
and there was some of that in flux with like

00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:40.300
meeting Tecteun and all of that. But it's kind

00:07:40.300 --> 00:07:45.500
of, there's so much going on in flux that any

00:07:45.500 --> 00:07:49.279
sort of, that there is something there, but it's

00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:51.000
a little bit lost. Whereas in this, like you

00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.399
said, these quiet scenes that have room to breathe

00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:57.449
in the church in Ruby Road, it's just. really

00:07:57.449 --> 00:07:59.850
laid out there in a really sort of nice, simple,

00:08:00.009 --> 00:08:04.529
effective way. I thought this was interesting

00:08:04.529 --> 00:08:08.410
because this episode has a lot in common structurally

00:08:08.410 --> 00:08:12.949
with going right back to 2005 with Rose, meeting

00:08:12.949 --> 00:08:16.009
the family, taking the companion's point of view,

00:08:16.170 --> 00:08:20.589
discovering the Doctor through their eyes. But

00:08:20.589 --> 00:08:22.970
then I also thought on top of that, you've got

00:08:22.970 --> 00:08:26.250
these elements. brought in that seemed like a

00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:29.089
bit of a mission statement about what this new

00:08:29.089 --> 00:08:31.709
era is going to be like i think the music felt

00:08:31.709 --> 00:08:34.750
like a big part of that the spectacle and the

00:08:34.750 --> 00:08:40.450
effects with the the goblins um so so yeah it

00:08:40.450 --> 00:08:44.929
felt like a really good um sort of yeah like

00:08:44.929 --> 00:08:46.889
pilot or sort of mission statement for what this

00:08:46.889 --> 00:08:52.149
new era is going to be um yeah like yourself

00:08:52.149 --> 00:08:55.299
i haven't watched it in the last few days or

00:08:55.299 --> 00:09:00.019
weeks, but I felt very positive about it at the

00:09:00.019 --> 00:09:02.120
time and I think I still feel the same. The music

00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:06.200
didn't bother me. It's interesting because I

00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:09.659
think maybe we can talk about the theories we

00:09:09.659 --> 00:09:12.860
had at the time, like mid -season, about where

00:09:12.860 --> 00:09:14.700
this was all going, but maybe we can talk a bit

00:09:14.700 --> 00:09:19.440
about the inclusion of music and fourth wall

00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:22.529
breaks and things. as we get into some of the

00:09:22.529 --> 00:09:25.669
other episodes. But one bit that didn't do so

00:09:25.669 --> 00:09:29.309
well on a rewatch for me, if I'm honest, is like

00:09:29.309 --> 00:09:31.129
the sort of setting up the mystery of Ruby's

00:09:31.129 --> 00:09:35.210
mother and that big, like, you know, sort of

00:09:35.210 --> 00:09:38.929
all the sort of ponderous, mysterious moments

00:09:38.929 --> 00:09:41.149
where you see this hooded figure walking away.

00:09:41.409 --> 00:09:45.330
And I get that that's the point, that it's like

00:09:45.330 --> 00:09:48.090
this mystery built up around something that is

00:09:48.090 --> 00:09:53.379
quite ordinary. But, yeah, it felt like a bit,

00:09:53.419 --> 00:09:58.899
like it was built up too much. And, again, I

00:09:58.899 --> 00:10:01.700
realise that's kind of the point, but, yeah,

00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:03.460
that sort of felt a bit flat for me. It was interesting

00:10:03.460 --> 00:10:05.759
to hear Russell T Davies himself on the commentary

00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.320
for that one sit there and go kind of laugh along

00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:10.419
with, you know, laugh in recognition of the fact

00:10:10.419 --> 00:10:12.100
that it was a bit overdone and kind of say...

00:10:12.900 --> 00:10:15.500
why is Ruby's mother wearing this ornamental

00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:18.279
cloak? He's the one pointing these things out.

00:10:18.820 --> 00:10:20.879
Maybe he's the one also that she could have stepped

00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:24.340
in and said, could we... I think his point is

00:10:24.340 --> 00:10:26.700
we wouldn't have done it any other way because

00:10:26.700 --> 00:10:29.379
it just... It sort of painted herself into that

00:10:29.379 --> 00:10:35.080
corner, so we ran with it. But I'll forgive that

00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:38.600
a lot. just in terms of the atmosphere that it

00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:40.379
creates because you know all that stuff the carol

00:10:40.379 --> 00:10:44.120
the carol of the bells and um you know the snow

00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:47.720
and it's it's so beautifully visually and and

00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:53.720
orally done that that i guess those slight illogicalities

00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.080
of presentation there's a sort of i don't know

00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:59.539
you can mean it halfway on that one but i do

00:10:59.539 --> 00:11:01.399
know what you mean it's a bit yeah it doesn't

00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:04.200
particularly stand up to robust analysis as far

00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:08.169
as why somebody would look that way in you know,

00:11:08.190 --> 00:11:09.950
whatever year, whatever recent year that was

00:11:09.950 --> 00:11:12.409
supposed to be. I forget what year they said

00:11:12.409 --> 00:11:16.070
it was, but I'd have to work it out backwards

00:11:16.070 --> 00:11:19.610
from Ruby's age. But yeah, relatively recent

00:11:19.610 --> 00:11:22.169
times and somebody dressed like, I don't know,

00:11:22.169 --> 00:11:25.169
someone from Victoria. Yeah, it didn't bother

00:11:25.169 --> 00:11:27.409
me at the time before we knew what the reveal

00:11:27.409 --> 00:11:30.649
was, but it's just like, it's re -watching it

00:11:30.649 --> 00:11:33.610
that it didn't work quite as well for me. One

00:11:33.610 --> 00:11:35.909
thing, sorry, just what it is, because it did

00:11:35.909 --> 00:11:39.230
come back into my head there. I think this is

00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:42.509
the one we're both going to be a bit equally

00:11:42.509 --> 00:11:45.350
woolly on just because neither of us appears

00:11:45.350 --> 00:11:48.049
to have got to a rewatch of this one in very

00:11:48.049 --> 00:11:52.409
recent days. But the stuff with... the mathematics

00:11:52.409 --> 00:11:54.470
of the language of rope and all that stuff. I

00:11:54.470 --> 00:11:57.330
loved all that because it's another bit of signaling

00:11:57.330 --> 00:12:00.190
that they, you know, and we also have like this,

00:12:00.210 --> 00:12:03.750
this floating wooden ship. It's like, okay, since

00:12:03.750 --> 00:12:07.769
the, since the salt incident happened, something,

00:12:07.889 --> 00:12:11.110
something more supernatural has crept into the

00:12:11.110 --> 00:12:13.129
universe. Things that might've looked a little

00:12:13.129 --> 00:12:16.950
less, things that might've been just, just outside

00:12:16.950 --> 00:12:21.029
the line before of what Doctor Who. feels it

00:12:21.029 --> 00:12:24.029
can plausibly present has we've moved that line

00:12:24.029 --> 00:12:27.110
basically and but it allows for some really interesting

00:12:27.110 --> 00:12:29.509
things and i mean i love the fact that the doctor

00:12:29.509 --> 00:12:32.389
can can can sort of understand the language of

00:12:32.389 --> 00:12:34.529
rope and make all these and what was that there

00:12:34.529 --> 00:12:37.230
before or after the soul change i don't know

00:12:37.230 --> 00:12:40.409
um maybe maybe there was always that kind of

00:12:40.409 --> 00:12:42.809
phenomenon and phenomenon in the universe but

00:12:42.809 --> 00:12:46.769
um yeah it's just it's interesting what's being

00:12:46.769 --> 00:12:50.399
toyed with there and i think uh russell t davis

00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:53.039
is he goes on to sort of finesse that a bit more

00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:56.759
as a series one and yeah that's that's set up

00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:00.039
in world beyonder it's it's that the whole idea

00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:02.240
is it's this discrete change the doctor does

00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:04.139
something and it releases all these magical forces

00:13:04.139 --> 00:13:06.759
but kind of out of universe looking at doctor

00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:10.340
who as a whole if you draw a line from um is

00:13:10.340 --> 00:13:14.360
it the demons the the one where uh like the third

00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:17.379
doctor is Talking about superstition and science

00:13:17.379 --> 00:13:21.100
and appropriately enough, that story is about

00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:24.879
a demon and sort of supernatural, effectively

00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.460
supernatural being, but is actually an alien,

00:13:27.580 --> 00:13:30.679
which is like a recurring thing in Doctor Who.

00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:33.840
But then I feel like over the decades, you know,

00:13:33.860 --> 00:13:37.139
you get to Battlefield towards the end of the

00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:40.370
original run. And then you get into like The

00:13:40.370 --> 00:13:44.090
Impossible Planet and a lot of stories in the

00:13:44.090 --> 00:13:46.909
new run and the books that came between. I feel

00:13:46.909 --> 00:13:49.870
like Doctor Who has gotten increasingly magical

00:13:49.870 --> 00:13:53.830
and sort of blurring the lines between science

00:13:53.830 --> 00:13:56.870
and magic as the years have gone on from taking

00:13:56.870 --> 00:13:59.889
this very sort of skeptical scientific position

00:13:59.889 --> 00:14:04.250
of it can all be explained to now sort of saying.

00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.860
yeah like there is magic there's just weird stuff

00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:11.240
that seeps in through the cracks and yeah it's

00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:14.159
all just part of an expanded kind of um realm

00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.980
of possibility and sometimes sometimes it's going

00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:18.519
to feel like a sciencey one and sometimes it's

00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:23.019
going to feel like okay uh you know the normal

00:14:23.019 --> 00:14:25.000
rules of physics may not may not quite apply

00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.559
on this one but but it has its own um yeah freewheeling

00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:32.059
kind of fantasy fun to it so let's just lean

00:14:32.059 --> 00:14:35.320
into that. Yeah. I think we have that more than

00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.679
ever this season. And I'm not saying that critically

00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.379
because I know a lot of people, well, it seems

00:14:40.379 --> 00:14:42.639
to have been a very Marmite experience, that

00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:46.879
kind of tonal change. But I personally am on

00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.100
the side of just, you know, it's what we have

00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:51.820
for the time being. Let's enjoy it. And there's

00:14:51.820 --> 00:14:56.320
a lot to be said for it. It's brought new possibilities

00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.120
to the table and some of them have been done

00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:06.080
very well. Yeah. Yeah, and maybe in our next

00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:07.720
episode we can talk about looking forward to

00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:09.399
season two because it feels like it's going to

00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:14.980
be sort of even more leaning into the whole gods

00:15:14.980 --> 00:15:20.700
and magic side of things. But shall we go on

00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:25.120
to Space Babies, which is an interesting one

00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:29.860
because re -watching this, Space Babies, it's

00:15:29.860 --> 00:15:33.840
not... It's not bad, but it feels like a bit

00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.100
of an aberration because we've got Wild Blue

00:15:37.100 --> 00:15:43.879
Yonder, the Toymaker, Goblins, and then the next

00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:46.519
episode we have Maestro. And in the middle we

00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:51.320
have this story that feels like a sort of throwback

00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:57.659
to the original RTD run in terms of tone and

00:15:57.659 --> 00:16:01.850
what's going on. Like I said, it's not a bad

00:16:01.850 --> 00:16:05.070
story, but for me, it's by far the weakest. And

00:16:05.070 --> 00:16:09.009
I think we talked about this at the time, that

00:16:09.009 --> 00:16:12.470
it feels like a weird choice to start off the

00:16:12.470 --> 00:16:16.049
season. But what were your thoughts? Did you

00:16:16.049 --> 00:16:18.730
get a chance to re -watch Space Babies? Yes,

00:16:18.730 --> 00:16:22.929
I did. And I have to say, very similar thoughts

00:16:22.929 --> 00:16:27.679
to your own on that. I would accept... I would

00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:29.360
agree with you, and I think the majority would

00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.539
take this view that it is the weakest of that

00:16:32.539 --> 00:16:38.320
first Tenshiuri series. I'm aware that many people

00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:42.220
out there absolutely detest it. I am not one

00:16:42.220 --> 00:16:46.460
of those people. I actually find it, you know,

00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:50.259
it's fun. In places, it's... Do you know what?

00:16:50.299 --> 00:16:54.500
The only real problem I have with it is... it's

00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:56.539
a little bit try hard you know like it's got

00:16:56.539 --> 00:16:59.860
that um that energy where you're being slight

00:16:59.860 --> 00:17:03.559
you know it's it's it's sometimes lots of pace

00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:05.440
and energy works another time it's just it just

00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.799
feels like okay stay with us stay with us this

00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:09.500
is going to be an exciting show you know lots

00:17:09.500 --> 00:17:11.299
is going to be happening it's going to be crazy

00:17:11.299 --> 00:17:12.660
it's going to be wacky the doctor's going to

00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:14.900
say you know things that are really quick far

00:17:14.900 --> 00:17:17.519
away for you and i don't know it feels a bit

00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:24.079
like that and um i don't know it's It's an odd

00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:27.960
one. There's moments in it that I really like.

00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:31.279
I love that first sequence of just Ruby walking

00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:33.119
in slow motion into the TARDIS. There's beautiful

00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:35.759
music. But that's, of course, a bit of a holdover

00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:42.660
from the church in Ruby Road. I know one of the

00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:44.880
things that gets criticized quite heavily is

00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.799
that the doctor is... There's literally a scene

00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:50.599
where... a series of questions and answers is

00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:54.339
more or less dealt with in short succession.

00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:58.000
The doctor says, oh, well, let me tell you about

00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:03.500
myself. I'm a time lord. Now, some people, I've

00:18:03.500 --> 00:18:06.559
heard quite a few people say that they find that

00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:09.000
really clunky. I personally don't. And I think

00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.380
some considerable thought and care has gone into

00:18:11.380 --> 00:18:15.259
just saying, no, that's what, you know, first

00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:18.329
of all, it is helpful for new viewers. But it's

00:18:18.329 --> 00:18:20.829
not, I mean, it's not unreasonable to think that

00:18:20.829 --> 00:18:23.910
those would be the, you know, that would be the,

00:18:24.009 --> 00:18:26.730
there's even a moment where Ruby has to catch

00:18:26.730 --> 00:18:28.910
up on stuff the doctor had told her 10 minutes

00:18:28.910 --> 00:18:30.750
ago. And she says, wait a minute, genocide? What?

00:18:30.869 --> 00:18:33.650
Like, you know, she's acknowledging the fact

00:18:33.650 --> 00:18:35.730
that there's a lot to take in, but to ignore

00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:37.670
the fact that there's a lot to take in would

00:18:37.670 --> 00:18:42.589
also be a bit, I don't know, strange. So I think

00:18:42.589 --> 00:18:46.190
RTD has in interviews and things. robustly defended

00:18:46.190 --> 00:18:48.230
and I think rightly defended that kind of sort

00:18:48.230 --> 00:18:51.829
of you know let's just have the conversation

00:18:51.829 --> 00:18:56.190
we may know all this stuff but Ruby doesn't and

00:18:56.190 --> 00:18:58.549
some brand new viewer may not and it's still

00:18:58.549 --> 00:19:02.369
interesting to hear it put even stuff we've heard

00:19:02.369 --> 00:19:04.029
a hundred times before from the Doctor it's interesting

00:19:04.029 --> 00:19:06.730
to hear how this Doctor puts it this time and

00:19:06.730 --> 00:19:10.289
so you know that's all fine the actual story

00:19:10.289 --> 00:19:17.380
with the the snot monster, the bogeyman. Yeah,

00:19:17.500 --> 00:19:21.420
that's all fine. The babies are, yeah, I guess

00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:23.380
a lot of people, that triggers their sort of

00:19:23.380 --> 00:19:26.599
uncanny valley reflexes. It's a strange sort

00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:28.200
of thing to sit and watch. You never quite get

00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:32.960
comfortable with the way they form. And there's

00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:35.279
a slight, I don't know, I find it, what I find

00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:38.019
a wee bit tricky is when the Doctor and Ruby

00:19:38.019 --> 00:19:41.789
first arrive in the baby form and Eric first

00:19:41.789 --> 00:19:44.569
sort of rolls in there. He's talking in a way

00:19:44.569 --> 00:19:48.789
where, you know, he could be, he is talking like

00:19:48.789 --> 00:19:51.089
an adult in a child's body who just happens to

00:19:51.089 --> 00:19:53.730
be this, you know, this toddler in a stroller.

00:19:54.009 --> 00:19:57.049
But he's saying very scientifically intricate

00:19:57.049 --> 00:19:59.009
things and he's talking in a very professional

00:19:59.009 --> 00:20:01.490
manner. And yet when they go back to the sort

00:20:01.490 --> 00:20:04.230
of control room there, the main control room,

00:20:04.349 --> 00:20:07.349
which something else I noticed today is just

00:20:07.349 --> 00:20:09.670
they have, I know they put a lot of effort into

00:20:09.670 --> 00:20:12.380
the... the the the sort of drawings and the walls

00:20:12.380 --> 00:20:14.220
and things and i'm thinking which which of those

00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:15.960
children do that drew that did they did they

00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:17.500
get out of their prams to draw it how did they

00:20:17.500 --> 00:20:20.299
get it up to that height anyway um that's the

00:20:20.299 --> 00:20:22.380
sort of silly stuff i can get distracted by but

00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:26.180
um yeah when they go back to that uh control

00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:28.539
room a lot of the children are talking in this

00:20:28.539 --> 00:20:32.519
very um childlike way you know just very like

00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.799
the way poppy talks the way that child who who

00:20:36.220 --> 00:20:37.819
who sort of makes, I don't know, he's made that

00:20:37.819 --> 00:20:39.960
sort of intricate little wooden hand that pushes

00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:41.819
the button and he's very proud of cleaning the

00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:44.059
pipes or whatever. But it's all, do you know

00:20:44.059 --> 00:20:47.259
what I mean? There's this sort of slight, from

00:20:47.259 --> 00:20:49.799
moment to moment, it can't seem to quite make

00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:53.839
up its mind like how babyish these babies are

00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.619
or how, you know, kind of like adults in children's

00:20:57.619 --> 00:21:00.339
bodies they are. And I'm not sure RTD ever quite

00:21:00.339 --> 00:21:03.710
came down on a consistent. tone there there's

00:21:03.710 --> 00:21:06.690
a moment where eric goes off to face um this

00:21:06.690 --> 00:21:09.410
the bogeyman with you know armed with nothing

00:21:09.410 --> 00:21:12.269
more than like a very blunt looking toy knife

00:21:12.269 --> 00:21:16.210
and the first time i watched that i thought that's

00:21:16.210 --> 00:21:20.029
a wee bit silly but you know he's he'd probably

00:21:20.029 --> 00:21:21.789
be a bit more intelligent than that given what

00:21:21.789 --> 00:21:24.869
we've seen already but actually what i realized

00:21:24.869 --> 00:21:29.579
this time around was he's kind of um he's almost

00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:31.720
embodying some of the qualities of the doctor

00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:33.359
there because the doctor would do exactly that.

00:21:33.579 --> 00:21:36.299
He'd take an intentionally useless weapon to

00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:39.480
go and give an enemy a stern talking to, you

00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:42.519
know, and then just throw the thing aside. So

00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:46.240
there are possibly more nuanced things in it

00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:50.059
than might first meet the eye. There's some very,

00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:55.559
like, you know, people who hated the burping

00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:59.089
wheelie bin must absolutely... to test the, I

00:21:59.089 --> 00:22:04.150
don't know how to put it, the spaceship's propulsion

00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:09.690
method at the end there. Yeah, anyway. But that,

00:22:09.829 --> 00:22:12.890
yeah, I can roll my eyes a wee bit at that, but

00:22:12.890 --> 00:22:15.049
also understand, look, it's just the fun and

00:22:15.049 --> 00:22:19.349
frothy one against which you foreground some

00:22:19.349 --> 00:22:23.529
introductory stuff, those key character beats

00:22:23.529 --> 00:22:26.059
where the Doctor sort of... gives Ruby the key

00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:28.619
and she agrees to travel with him. And she, she,

00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:30.759
she demonstrates that she understands the stakes,

00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:32.940
but wants to go anyway. And it's, it's an act

00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:34.980
of self -agency and all that. So all that stuff

00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:37.740
is, is done well. Those, those, those sort of

00:22:37.740 --> 00:22:41.680
moments between the doctor and Ruby. And it's

00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.119
very much, you know, it's, it's very much Russell

00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.380
T. Davis doing that thing he's traditionally

00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:49.660
done at the start of a season, which is, okay,

00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.500
let's go, let's go really extra frothy with this

00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:55.700
one. make it almost intentionally thin stuff

00:22:55.700 --> 00:23:03.539
and then just build from there. The Autons are

00:23:03.539 --> 00:23:07.359
a threat, but it's like you don't get much of

00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:09.319
a sense of them or much of an exploration of

00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.359
them. It's all about getting to know the Doctor

00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:15.980
and Rose in that episode. So yeah, maybe it's

00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:18.579
a similar approach here. Like you say, a relatively

00:23:18.579 --> 00:23:23.180
thin story, but the focus is. on getting to know

00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:28.220
these these characters um should we go on to

00:23:28.220 --> 00:23:31.759
our second episode which is second episode in

00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:36.440
the season uh the devil's chord yes uh which

00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:40.380
has a lot more going on um and i know you've

00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:42.339
got an interest in music so i don't know if that

00:23:42.339 --> 00:23:45.539
like there was stuff that you picked up on in

00:23:45.539 --> 00:23:48.259
in this one in particular but but yeah what were

00:23:48.259 --> 00:23:50.630
your thoughts on The Devil's Code. I think it's

00:23:50.630 --> 00:23:55.089
the one that definitely feels most Disney of

00:23:55.089 --> 00:24:00.130
the whole season. There are other episodes where

00:24:00.130 --> 00:24:03.869
you go, yeah, I can see what the new budget has

00:24:03.869 --> 00:24:05.569
done for the show, but it doesn't feel intrinsically

00:24:05.569 --> 00:24:08.029
Disney -ish. But this one somehow did. I think

00:24:08.029 --> 00:24:10.930
something about the visual language of those

00:24:10.930 --> 00:24:13.650
physical notes floating in the air and being

00:24:13.650 --> 00:24:18.740
swizzled around and Maestro's own... and stylings

00:24:18.740 --> 00:24:20.900
and everything. That could be, you know, somebody

00:24:20.900 --> 00:24:23.660
ripped straight from a Disney cartoon, you know.

00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:28.579
It's a very impressive piece of work. I like

00:24:28.579 --> 00:24:31.420
it. I love the way it plays with music and that

00:24:31.420 --> 00:24:34.059
business of going into the title sequence with

00:24:34.059 --> 00:24:37.039
the, you know, and all that and then just gradually

00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:39.920
fading in the music because here we are into

00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:43.420
this realm of, you know, how would you describe

00:24:43.420 --> 00:24:49.400
it? Reality has been... turned upside down and

00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:52.980
and and there is a you know here we now really

00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:57.220
begin the era of the of the uh overt fourth wall

00:24:57.220 --> 00:25:00.539
break um it it bookends the thing you know we

00:25:00.539 --> 00:25:02.299
get it there and we get it with the doctor at

00:25:02.299 --> 00:25:04.240
the end going into a song and dance number and

00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:06.839
even sort of giving a wink to the camera and

00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:09.299
talking about non -non -diegetic music at one

00:25:09.299 --> 00:25:12.839
stage um incidentally there's a thing there just

00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:15.759
just speaking of the sort of musical side of

00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.619
it It was actually my girlfriend pointed this

00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:19.880
out to me, so I'm not going to take the credit

00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:21.559
for this one. She knows a lot more about music

00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:24.920
than I do, but she mentioned that 357, the room

00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:27.960
that Nanny was in in the first, I think she said

00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:31.380
that 357 is some sort of triad, like an upper

00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:33.519
structure triad or something like that in music.

00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:35.460
If you take the bass note as being one, then

00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:41.339
your 357 gives you this sort of atonal chord,

00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:45.910
which sort of, I guess, nearly is its own. little

00:25:45.910 --> 00:25:50.450
uh mini harbinger of of what's to come um oh

00:25:50.450 --> 00:25:52.309
one other thing by the way sorry not not to go

00:25:52.309 --> 00:25:54.769
not to keep going back to the earlier ones but

00:25:54.769 --> 00:26:00.329
there's a moment um in there's a moment in space

00:26:00.329 --> 00:26:02.930
babies where the doctor picks up a spoon and

00:26:02.930 --> 00:26:07.269
he goes that's a great word spoon um and then

00:26:07.269 --> 00:26:10.430
and then in this one a spoon features again and

00:26:10.430 --> 00:26:12.869
then what do we have in the finale you know,

00:26:12.890 --> 00:26:15.470
a key moment with a spoon. So I think there are

00:26:15.470 --> 00:26:19.950
subtle little things. But I'll tell you, one

00:26:19.950 --> 00:26:23.250
oddity that I remember sort of absolutely obsessing

00:26:23.250 --> 00:26:25.109
me at the time was like, is that a deliberate

00:26:25.109 --> 00:26:27.670
thing about, okay, this appears to be Ruby's

00:26:27.670 --> 00:26:31.109
first trip back to the past. It's not necessarily,

00:26:31.349 --> 00:26:34.019
but it's strongly signaled that it is. and um

00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:36.779
and yet here's here she is saying that it's that

00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:40.000
it's june in her timeline june 2024 yeah there's

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.740
a bit of confusion about how much time has passed

00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:46.359
because the line is very the line is very very

00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:49.539
quick like almost like it was added in later

00:26:49.539 --> 00:26:52.900
or something but it's like very peculiar because

00:26:52.900 --> 00:26:54.960
you know obviously six months six months not

00:26:54.960 --> 00:27:00.619
to have seen um not well Maybe I was reading

00:27:00.619 --> 00:27:02.980
too much into it and assuming this was her first

00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:05.259
trip to the past, but it sort of felt like that.

00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:07.579
And then we get her first alien planet the following

00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:09.440
week. And you're thinking, well, that's even

00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:12.460
further on for her. So it's like minimum six

00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:14.799
to seven months she's seen her first alien planet.

00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:17.200
What have they been doing all this time? And

00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.299
that began to make me, well, I know we're going

00:27:19.299 --> 00:27:21.720
to talk at the end about theories we had at the

00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:23.619
time. So I'm not leaning too heavily into that

00:27:23.619 --> 00:27:27.460
stuff right now. But it did get my mind. taking

00:27:27.460 --> 00:27:31.019
over on a few things um oh there's there's so

00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:33.299
much so much stuff in this i love the fact we've

00:27:33.299 --> 00:27:36.539
got oh i'll tell you what actually um there was

00:27:36.539 --> 00:27:38.700
a clever thing in this um there's obviously that

00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:41.380
the whole business about the bad the bad music

00:27:41.380 --> 00:27:43.079
coming over to you know having entirely replaced

00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:47.039
the good and and the disastrous um consequences

00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:49.660
this will lead to you know um nuclear war eventually

00:27:49.660 --> 00:27:52.099
because people don't have that outlet for for

00:27:52.099 --> 00:27:55.910
their emotions but um There's a really clever

00:27:55.910 --> 00:27:59.029
moment. I don't know if it's been mentioned elsewhere.

00:27:59.789 --> 00:28:02.650
And maybe it wasn't intentional, but it seemed

00:28:02.650 --> 00:28:05.549
to me that it was a clever thing. And I'm going

00:28:05.549 --> 00:28:08.549
to just bring in at this stage as a bit of an

00:28:08.549 --> 00:28:12.289
oblique but relevant reference, a big Finnish

00:28:12.289 --> 00:28:14.829
audio story called The Perpetual Bond, in which

00:28:14.829 --> 00:28:17.990
they manage to use a little bit of Beatles music.

00:28:19.129 --> 00:28:22.569
sort of, by not using the actual Beatles music.

00:28:22.670 --> 00:28:25.910
They used the opening, you know, the little French

00:28:25.910 --> 00:28:29.470
anthem bit of All You Need Is Love. And they

00:28:29.470 --> 00:28:31.150
managed to work that into the story in a really

00:28:31.150 --> 00:28:33.930
clever way. And they do something similar here

00:28:33.930 --> 00:28:36.089
where they have, when the doctor's racing around

00:28:36.089 --> 00:28:37.890
trying to see if everybody's affected by this

00:28:37.890 --> 00:28:42.109
virus of terrible music, he goes in at one stage

00:28:42.109 --> 00:28:46.900
and the orchestra is beginning to record. what

00:28:46.900 --> 00:28:49.380
what appears to be three blind mice but it's

00:28:49.380 --> 00:28:54.880
the same it's these and that's also the same

00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:58.539
little to me that was a way of sneaking in the

00:28:58.539 --> 00:29:01.960
opening notes of of uh all you need is love because

00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:03.720
it's the same as three blind mice and i just

00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.019
thought oh that's that's clever they've done

00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:07.480
that they've got that they've got beatles music

00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:09.099
in without paying them a penny even though it's

00:29:09.099 --> 00:29:11.480
not you know what i mean it's well the notes

00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.500
um you know the notes at the end that they actually

00:29:15.259 --> 00:29:18.240
you know at the climax were those anything were

00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.660
those suggesting i'm not sure it'll probably

00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:23.599
take a better expert on on the beatles than me

00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.619
i i must admit i'm not uh i'm not steeped in

00:29:26.619 --> 00:29:31.240
in all that but um uh it could well be um could

00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:33.559
well be i did i did begin to wonder you know

00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:36.519
when when the the doctor's having that conversation

00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:38.900
with paul it's really dumb really well done when

00:29:38.900 --> 00:29:41.519
they have the two separate sort of interviews

00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:43.980
as it were with with uh ruby ruby talking to

00:29:44.990 --> 00:29:48.769
John and the doctor talking to Paul and he says

00:29:48.769 --> 00:29:52.829
you know sometimes late at night and it comes

00:29:52.829 --> 00:29:54.829
from deep within I just have this sequence of

00:29:54.829 --> 00:29:57.410
notes and it goes and he I meant to go and play

00:29:57.410 --> 00:29:59.650
that on the piano and see if it if it sounded

00:29:59.650 --> 00:30:01.069
like anything but I think that is ultimately

00:30:01.069 --> 00:30:02.569
just what they play isn't it in the corridor

00:30:02.569 --> 00:30:06.410
after the sort of music battle and everything

00:30:06.410 --> 00:30:12.559
but yeah I mean this one i know i'm going to

00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:14.400
kick myself after this for not having said like

00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:16.839
a ton more things because i it's it's it's packed

00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:19.200
with stuff i think i think it's incredible i

00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.099
think they really sell very very well that moment

00:30:23.099 --> 00:30:26.160
where the doctor it it's rare to see the doctor

00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.059
absolutely like petrified but you get it in this

00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:32.640
you get it at the moment where he realizes that

00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:34.900
with each of these guys from the pantheon he's

00:30:34.900 --> 00:30:40.039
gonna have as he puts it one trick once and he

00:30:40.619 --> 00:30:43.000
he is thinking on his feet more than he's ever

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:46.160
had to in his life and when he's when he's used

00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:47.920
up as one tricky he has no idea what he's going

00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.059
to do next and that to me feels incredibly tense

00:30:51.059 --> 00:30:52.900
and that feels like we really are getting into

00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:56.880
realms where the doctor's not quite been before

00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:01.920
i mean he feels out of his depth um you know

00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:04.660
and it's it's and and then should he plays up

00:31:04.660 --> 00:31:06.339
brilliantly like that moment where he's down

00:31:06.339 --> 00:31:08.980
in the cellar hole in the holding the sonic aloft

00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:13.000
and doing his one trick once. And that whole

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:16.559
sequence with the complete deafening of the world,

00:31:16.660 --> 00:31:19.400
whatever he does there just cancels out all sound.

00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:24.220
And that whole, the way they direct that, you

00:31:24.220 --> 00:31:27.180
know, the silently smashing bottle and the tuning

00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:29.200
fork being struck with no sound and all that,

00:31:29.220 --> 00:31:32.059
it's really, really effective. Yeah, it's making

00:31:32.059 --> 00:31:34.440
me think that, like, I did also like the fact

00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:38.470
that, so this era, right from the starburst onwards

00:31:38.470 --> 00:31:41.190
has set up a lot of things like the meeps boss

00:31:41.190 --> 00:31:47.009
and um and the pantheon um but it hasn't strung

00:31:47.009 --> 00:31:49.690
those out too much like coming out of season

00:31:49.690 --> 00:31:52.549
one we still have the mysteries or questions

00:31:52.549 --> 00:31:58.069
about mrs flarden and a few other bits but we

00:31:58.069 --> 00:32:00.609
got a follow -up on the pantheon in the second

00:32:00.609 --> 00:32:04.869
episode in the season like um you know and that

00:32:05.210 --> 00:32:08.069
It sort of comes back in the finale as well.

00:32:08.269 --> 00:32:11.650
And so I appreciated that, that, yeah, there's

00:32:11.650 --> 00:32:14.329
loads of stuff teased, but it's not drawn out

00:32:14.329 --> 00:32:17.250
to the point where, you know, you lose interest

00:32:17.250 --> 00:32:22.109
in these things. All the Beatles themselves,

00:32:22.430 --> 00:32:26.390
I think they were used really well, like just

00:32:26.390 --> 00:32:28.430
the right amount. You have those initial conversations,

00:32:28.589 --> 00:32:31.730
like you said, and then they come in to, you

00:32:31.730 --> 00:32:34.609
know, save the day at the end. This is purely

00:32:34.609 --> 00:32:39.049
like my sort of expectations looking at like

00:32:39.049 --> 00:32:40.730
how much they were featured in the promotion

00:32:40.730 --> 00:32:43.630
before the broadcast. But I think I had in my

00:32:43.630 --> 00:32:45.470
head that this was going to be much more of like

00:32:45.470 --> 00:32:49.309
like along the lines of, you know, those previous

00:32:49.309 --> 00:32:53.650
RTD celebrity historicals. We spend a lot of

00:32:53.650 --> 00:32:57.390
time with those characters that, you know, we

00:32:57.390 --> 00:32:59.190
were going to meet all four of the Beatles and

00:32:59.190 --> 00:33:01.769
they were going to be. like sort of main characters

00:33:01.769 --> 00:33:05.109
in this story um whereas you know it works fine

00:33:05.109 --> 00:33:08.269
with them weaving in and out as they did um but

00:33:08.269 --> 00:33:10.289
that was one thing that i was sort of expecting

00:33:10.289 --> 00:33:12.769
going in going in that didn't didn't pan out

00:33:12.769 --> 00:33:18.130
um what else was this the one we had a reference

00:33:18.130 --> 00:33:20.950
to to susan was this when they're on the rooftop

00:33:20.950 --> 00:33:24.710
yeah well that's first first of all yeah you're

00:33:24.710 --> 00:33:28.869
right he um And he starts talking about how he

00:33:28.869 --> 00:33:31.109
and his granddaughter lived just over there and

00:33:31.109 --> 00:33:33.150
how they'd just been through the great foggy

00:33:33.150 --> 00:33:36.210
winter of 1962 and all that. And Ruby's just

00:33:36.210 --> 00:33:37.950
standing there kind of agape at the fact that

00:33:37.950 --> 00:33:40.410
he's just dropped this fact. There's a really

00:33:40.410 --> 00:33:42.029
odd moment there, actually, where the doctor,

00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:45.309
having said to her, you know, what happened to

00:33:45.309 --> 00:33:46.769
my granddaughter? Well, she probably got killed

00:33:46.769 --> 00:33:50.009
in the Time War. And then he laughs in a really

00:33:50.009 --> 00:33:52.730
strange way. It's like, what's funny about that,

00:33:52.750 --> 00:33:54.950
doctor? But I think when I look at it again,

00:33:55.130 --> 00:33:57.690
right, I kind of think. that's a really interesting

00:33:57.690 --> 00:33:59.789
acting choice and it's sort of playing the truth

00:33:59.789 --> 00:34:02.269
of that because you know you're either gonna

00:34:02.269 --> 00:34:04.569
laugh you're gonna cry it's it's like it's chaotic

00:34:04.569 --> 00:34:08.170
forces of of of your you know the emotions just

00:34:08.170 --> 00:34:11.329
spilling over in that uh but but he's i guess

00:34:11.329 --> 00:34:14.420
he's sort of um I don't know, for Ruby's benefit,

00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:16.780
he laughs rather than cries, you know, but it's

00:34:16.780 --> 00:34:20.320
a curious one that, you know, it's a choice.

00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.059
Clearly it's a choice, but it definitely hits

00:34:23.059 --> 00:34:27.800
oddly, memorably, but oddly. We also have the

00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.860
billboard, you know, with the very early version

00:34:30.860 --> 00:34:36.360
of what, what is it? The carolers, who will eventually

00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:38.420
go on to be John Smith and the common men. And

00:34:38.420 --> 00:34:40.659
so there's... There seem to be further little,

00:34:40.659 --> 00:34:42.900
I guess what will ultimately turn out to be red

00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:46.139
herrings, or are they, as far as Susan is concerned?

00:34:46.340 --> 00:34:48.380
Certainly there were red herrings this season.

00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:54.179
I'll just mention, because I know we need to

00:34:54.179 --> 00:34:57.739
move on in a moment, but in terms of the fourth

00:34:57.739 --> 00:35:02.119
wall stuff, it's not just what they do with the

00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:07.320
music and those references to non -diegetic and

00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:10.409
those things. We also have... uh it's interesting

00:35:10.409 --> 00:35:13.250
that in this we actually get uh we get june hudson

00:35:13.250 --> 00:35:17.349
playing a part and we get um bodger limbs son

00:35:17.349 --> 00:35:19.650
if i remember correctly as the as the music instructor

00:35:19.650 --> 00:35:22.349
and i don't know this began to see things in

00:35:22.349 --> 00:35:25.530
my head that either ultimately went nowhere or

00:35:25.530 --> 00:35:27.349
are yet still to go somewhere although i have

00:35:27.349 --> 00:35:29.690
anyway we're going to touch we're going to touch

00:35:29.690 --> 00:35:33.550
on that soon i know but but um uh yeah just just

00:35:33.550 --> 00:35:36.010
in case i don't remember to list them all as

00:35:36.010 --> 00:35:38.010
bullet points at the end these were some of the

00:35:38.010 --> 00:35:39.949
things coming into my awareness I was thinking

00:35:39.949 --> 00:35:41.730
are they doing some really clever stuff here

00:35:41.730 --> 00:35:45.989
or is it just stuff you know it's just like June

00:35:45.989 --> 00:35:48.809
Hudson wanted to be in it so you know they weren't

00:35:48.809 --> 00:35:55.750
telegraphing anything intentionally you know

00:35:55.750 --> 00:35:58.210
there wasn't some complex meta plan it was just

00:35:58.210 --> 00:36:01.110
okay June Hudson wanted to be involved and Roger

00:36:01.110 --> 00:36:04.070
Lim's son happened to be an actor who and it

00:36:04.070 --> 00:36:07.280
was nice to give him a part or whatever but Yeah,

00:36:07.300 --> 00:36:10.340
and the episode's themed around music, so, yeah,

00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:14.880
sort of out of universe, it makes sense. Also,

00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.260
one final thing, although it's set in 1963, there's

00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:21.300
a kind of, and this is a game where it maybe

00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:22.960
feels a wee bit more Disney's than some of the

00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.159
others, there's something about some of their

00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:27.739
choices. They've got, like, obviously the Abbey

00:36:27.739 --> 00:36:29.780
Road cover, and I understand why they've done

00:36:29.780 --> 00:36:32.000
that, but since that belongs a bit more to the

00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.949
late end of the 60s. um but that you know it

00:36:35.949 --> 00:36:37.510
already has that feel out in the street with

00:36:37.510 --> 00:36:40.070
the beetle park and everything and then um they've

00:36:40.070 --> 00:36:43.289
got uh those very vibrantly colored costumes

00:36:43.289 --> 00:36:44.849
in the dance sequence at the end and everything

00:36:44.849 --> 00:36:49.030
uh to be 1963 i mean in my head 1963 isn't black

00:36:49.030 --> 00:36:52.670
and white anyway but but you know it it should

00:36:52.670 --> 00:36:54.329
feel i don't know somehow in my head it should

00:36:54.329 --> 00:36:57.210
feel a bit less colorful than that but maybe

00:36:57.210 --> 00:37:00.650
it wasn't you know maybe that's just my um you

00:37:00.650 --> 00:37:05.380
know my my from having watched William Hartnell's

00:37:05.380 --> 00:37:11.000
era or something. Yeah. Yeah, I know what you

00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:13.380
mean. Maybe that was like a conscious choice

00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:17.360
about tone as well. And it obviously got a lot

00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:21.820
more colourful in the final scene. So they were

00:37:21.820 --> 00:37:25.019
probably, I think they were playing with the

00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:28.599
amount of colour as well as things went through.

00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:33.400
Oh, and the first overt mention of although I

00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:35.539
know we had had Susan twist before, but this

00:37:35.539 --> 00:37:37.059
was the first time they really hammered on that

00:37:37.059 --> 00:37:40.119
notion of the twist at the end and what was going

00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:44.059
on, you know, it's like big, big neon signposted

00:37:44.059 --> 00:37:46.719
that if we hadn't spotted it already sort of

00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:50.059
thing. So that's where, that's where things started

00:37:50.059 --> 00:37:53.320
to get very interesting in terms of what the

00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:55.780
heck is going on. Yeah. And again, like adding

00:37:55.780 --> 00:37:58.840
fuel to theories about in and out of universe

00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:02.489
connections and, like metatextual references

00:38:02.489 --> 00:38:06.650
like referencing the the actor's name um but

00:38:06.650 --> 00:38:10.849
uh yeah yeah there's loads more we can say about

00:38:10.849 --> 00:38:12.809
this one i'm sure but should we should we go

00:38:12.809 --> 00:38:16.409
on to our third episode of the season which is

00:38:16.409 --> 00:38:20.150
boom and this is steven moffat coming back to

00:38:20.150 --> 00:38:24.010
to doctor who not as a showrunner but again like

00:38:24.010 --> 00:38:31.900
the first rtd era as a writer um I really enjoyed

00:38:31.900 --> 00:38:35.739
this one. I don't have loads and loads to say

00:38:35.739 --> 00:38:37.159
about it, though, but it was just like a really

00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:41.179
solid concept. I think Stephen Moffat talked

00:38:41.179 --> 00:38:46.059
about pitching lots of ideas and being told by

00:38:46.059 --> 00:38:47.800
Russell T Davies that, oh, you've done that,

00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:49.980
you've done that, and then landing on this one.

00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:55.000
Yeah, and I think it's a great sort of concept.

00:38:55.059 --> 00:38:57.199
It's realized really well. You get into it very

00:38:57.199 --> 00:38:59.820
quickly. It doesn't waste a lot of time. getting

00:38:59.820 --> 00:39:02.800
into the setup is it is it just before the credits

00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:06.059
or just after that the doctor stops steps on

00:39:06.059 --> 00:39:09.460
the landmine it's just before it's like you see

00:39:09.460 --> 00:39:11.800
the lights sort of spin around and then his eyes

00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:15.480
into the credits yeah that that's that's i think

00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:19.880
a really good example of um like post 2005 doctor

00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:25.820
who using the pre -credits section to to squeeze

00:39:25.820 --> 00:39:29.940
in a cliffhanger um and to to get like a kind

00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:32.219
of like classic series cliffhanger in there um

00:39:32.219 --> 00:39:35.260
like something really exciting that ramps up

00:39:35.260 --> 00:39:38.219
the tension and uh and then you go away for a

00:39:38.219 --> 00:39:40.320
minute or two and rather than waiting a week

00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:42.880
to see the next episode you know you see it play

00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.980
out after the credits but um yeah i like those

00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:50.460
those cold opens in the post 2005 series that

00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:53.920
have like a really strong compelling lead in

00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:58.219
like that um But yeah, what were your impressions

00:39:58.219 --> 00:40:01.360
of this one, either on first viewing or if that

00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:05.760
has changed with a rewatch? First viewing and

00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:08.519
every subsequent viewing, I have just loved this

00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:13.519
thing. It is, I love, I just love the beautiful

00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:16.119
simplicity of that idea and it builds entirely

00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:20.760
around this one moment, like this one sustained

00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:24.000
moment of tension. It's just, it's incredibly

00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:28.389
mesmerizing. and and yet agony to watch and the

00:40:28.389 --> 00:40:31.110
doctor sort of getting his zen on as you as you

00:40:31.110 --> 00:40:36.110
as i'm sorry as he puts it is um you know he

00:40:36.110 --> 00:40:38.670
has to use every reserve available to him to

00:40:38.670 --> 00:40:42.329
to stay as centered and as calm as he can even

00:40:42.329 --> 00:40:45.550
while awful things are happening you know ruby

00:40:45.550 --> 00:40:52.019
gets shot at one point um he's you know I love

00:40:52.019 --> 00:40:53.880
that moment where Ruby first comes out of the

00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:57.099
TARDIS and he's singing the Skyboat song and

00:40:57.099 --> 00:41:01.519
he uses poetry and songs to sort of you know

00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:05.679
just grind himself and pull himself out of the

00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:08.860
immediate now and into more abstract realms but

00:41:08.860 --> 00:41:11.019
the whole time he's just right on this knife

00:41:11.019 --> 00:41:17.469
edge the whole way through and I think it's I

00:41:17.469 --> 00:41:19.510
think as good as they have been up to that point,

00:41:19.530 --> 00:41:22.750
I think that was the strongest. A huge section

00:41:22.750 --> 00:41:24.809
of it is just almost like a two -hander for them.

00:41:25.989 --> 00:41:28.349
And the way she plays that scene where she hands

00:41:28.349 --> 00:41:33.530
over the urn, let's say, the squashed, the smelted

00:41:33.530 --> 00:41:37.690
body thing to him. And he's going to counterbalance

00:41:37.690 --> 00:41:40.389
himself. And she says, no, I need a beat. So

00:41:40.389 --> 00:41:43.349
it comes back to her kind of musical side again.

00:41:45.269 --> 00:41:49.889
This is one where, I mean, and Shidi gets over

00:41:49.889 --> 00:41:51.929
-criticized, I think, at times for being the

00:41:51.929 --> 00:41:54.329
doctor who cries all the time. But I think in

00:41:54.329 --> 00:41:56.849
this one... Yeah, it's the one where it's justified.

00:41:57.329 --> 00:42:00.869
Most justified because, yeah, he's controlling.

00:42:01.210 --> 00:42:04.510
You know, he needs it. He actually needs it to

00:42:04.510 --> 00:42:07.710
balance himself out. Otherwise, he's literally

00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:09.090
going to explode, you know, and he's going to

00:42:09.090 --> 00:42:12.570
take half the planet with him. We get the introduction,

00:42:12.730 --> 00:42:19.260
of course, of... uh mundy flynn who you know

00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:22.019
clearly has has as we now know from the season

00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:26.880
two trailer um will go on to have a connective

00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:32.760
significance how loose or or or intricate that

00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:35.280
connection is we don't yet know but there's there's

00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:40.139
an overtly signaled um connection um and uh that's

00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:42.599
very interesting and she comes in and plays that

00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.280
part very, very well. So you can see absolutely

00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:49.820
why they looked at her and went, can she be given

00:42:49.820 --> 00:42:53.960
something else? Can we have her more full time?

00:42:54.119 --> 00:43:00.420
And yeah, I just think that is such a, it's such

00:43:00.420 --> 00:43:02.579
a, it sounds a really obvious thing to say, but

00:43:02.579 --> 00:43:05.139
it's such a Moffat -y script. You kind of go,

00:43:05.239 --> 00:43:09.539
yeah, he has this. um down to fine art you know

00:43:09.539 --> 00:43:14.099
it's very polished um i love some of the things

00:43:14.099 --> 00:43:17.099
i don't know whether he has scripted it like

00:43:17.099 --> 00:43:19.739
this or whether and should he kind of workshopped

00:43:19.739 --> 00:43:23.300
it or whatever but there's moments where this

00:43:23.300 --> 00:43:25.840
doctor says certain things where you go i can't

00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:28.559
imagine any other doctor saying that it's just

00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:30.260
it's like that moment where he's like do you

00:43:30.260 --> 00:43:35.679
get get get it you know or um I can't do this

00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:37.320
or a patois or whatever, but at some point he

00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:41.480
refers to Faith Gill or whatever. He's got these

00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:45.119
ways of putting things. You go, yeah, that's

00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:48.860
absolutely unique to his doctor. And yeah, I

00:43:48.860 --> 00:43:50.800
love, there's something about the rhythms of

00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:53.079
the speech in it, the tension of it, the way

00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:55.360
those moments play out. And he has paced it just

00:43:55.360 --> 00:44:00.260
beautifully. one thing layers on top of another

00:44:00.260 --> 00:44:03.099
and then it hits a total crisis point and of

00:44:03.099 --> 00:44:06.880
course the old tablecloth trick at the end it's

00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:09.320
a little bit the one sort of slight weakness

00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:11.719
of it but I can forgive it this because obviously

00:44:11.719 --> 00:44:13.679
we're going to have to pull the cat out of the

00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:17.360
bag somehow but you know the dad sort of using

00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:21.239
his dad skills to subvert the system is you know

00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.840
it's veering into that sort of same territory

00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:26.429
as you know daddy's coming home or whatever from

00:44:26.429 --> 00:44:29.050
closing time that kind of it's it's there's a

00:44:29.050 --> 00:44:33.190
very fine line between um an emotional uh payoff

00:44:33.190 --> 00:44:36.030
and something that's just pure cringe but i think

00:44:36.030 --> 00:44:37.630
he stays just the right side of the line there

00:44:37.630 --> 00:44:40.489
um and the sort of kiss kiss payoff and all that

00:44:40.489 --> 00:44:43.170
is i think like there's i think what makes that

00:44:43.170 --> 00:44:46.090
work for me is that like a lot of this episode

00:44:46.090 --> 00:44:49.550
is quite brutal and grim so it's it's it's kind

00:44:49.550 --> 00:44:51.929
of balancing things out to have a little bit

00:44:51.929 --> 00:44:58.030
of sort of sweet saccharine resolution because

00:44:58.030 --> 00:45:01.309
there's some awful stuff that happens to people

00:45:01.309 --> 00:45:06.530
leading up to that. There's a beautiful thing

00:45:06.530 --> 00:45:10.650
at the end where the Doctor says snow isn't snow

00:45:10.650 --> 00:45:12.809
until it falls and I just love the poetry of

00:45:12.809 --> 00:45:17.269
that. It sort of slightly echoes Paul Cornell's

00:45:17.269 --> 00:45:19.610
thing about two snowflakes were the same long

00:45:19.610 --> 00:45:23.759
ago in an English spring from the end of the

00:45:23.759 --> 00:45:26.260
human nature, the book version of human nature.

00:45:27.579 --> 00:45:30.400
I don't know whether Moffat has absorbed some

00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:32.519
of these little influences and then subconsciously

00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:35.940
or even consciously put them in. But yeah, and

00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:39.260
then he quotes Philip Larkin at the end as well.

00:45:40.260 --> 00:45:44.300
So that's nice. Yeah, there's lots of, and at

00:45:44.300 --> 00:45:46.820
one stage the doctor's reciting this poem, you

00:45:46.820 --> 00:45:50.820
know, which is clearly to do with his own experiences.

00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:53.480
stealing of the moon and the president's wife

00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:56.099
and all that stuff and um yeah there's just some

00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:58.099
really just interesting stuff thrown in there

00:45:58.099 --> 00:46:00.579
while he's while he's doing his whole stream

00:46:00.579 --> 00:46:03.099
of consciousness to to to stay grand he's using

00:46:03.099 --> 00:46:07.239
every everything he's got in his in his his personal

00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:11.840
mental armory there and and um it it's it's fascinating

00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:15.059
to watch and i i think uh Yeah, it works incredibly

00:46:15.059 --> 00:46:18.000
well. The other thing I mustn't forget to mention

00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:20.239
is this was Doctor Who's first use, wasn't it?

00:46:20.260 --> 00:46:22.920
What do you call that piece of kit, the big wall?

00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:26.039
I don't know if it was... The thing I'm thinking

00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:27.719
of is the volume, but I don't know if this was

00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:31.059
exactly... It was the same kind of thing, that

00:46:31.059 --> 00:46:33.239
sort of video wall. But yeah, I was thinking

00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:35.699
of exactly that because I think Moffat's talked

00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:38.739
a lot in interviews about how, in theory, this

00:46:38.739 --> 00:46:42.199
was going to be the cheap episode of very...

00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:46.559
enclosed uh you know one set uh limited cast

00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:50.559
um but he's also said this thing about you know

00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:53.980
there's no such thing as a cheap uh episode and

00:46:53.980 --> 00:46:56.099
did we talk about this last time about heaven

00:46:56.099 --> 00:47:00.300
you know like things like that but like actually

00:47:00.300 --> 00:47:02.639
there's so much more work that needs to go into

00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:06.960
like coverage and editing and and and and it's

00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:10.500
it's sort of other things take the place of the

00:47:10.500 --> 00:47:13.000
things that you're saving money on um but yes

00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:16.699
this was and it comes back in the finale in other

00:47:16.699 --> 00:47:20.360
places but they that that whole battlefield landscape

00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:24.599
was created on those those screens yeah um it

00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:28.880
seems to be one of those ones where um different

00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:31.000
people's eyes seem to work a different way ways

00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:32.980
for this because for me i was absolutely sold

00:47:32.980 --> 00:47:35.239
on it like i there was very very few shots in

00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:36.760
that where i thought yeah that looks like a person

00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:39.860
stood in front of a screen once or twice perhaps

00:47:39.860 --> 00:47:44.179
but i mean you know like if we can sit as fans

00:47:44.179 --> 00:47:47.019
as we do and watch i don't know like planet of

00:47:47.019 --> 00:47:50.460
giants you know underworld is the yeah the big

00:47:50.460 --> 00:47:55.880
giant photographic Yeah, exactly. We can watch

00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:57.659
all these things, and then you see that it's

00:47:57.659 --> 00:48:00.360
streets ahead, and you go, well, I can forgive

00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:03.559
it, the odd moment of two -dimensionality. And

00:48:03.559 --> 00:48:06.059
then there's whole other sequences where stuff

00:48:06.059 --> 00:48:08.539
that you know must be happening just on a flat

00:48:08.539 --> 00:48:12.559
wall looks absolutely like it's in three dimensions.

00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:14.519
There's a sort of a phalanx of things that comes

00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.260
across the sky and does the cleaning up of the

00:48:17.260 --> 00:48:18.960
battlefield and so on, and it looks for all the

00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:23.010
world. Yeah, I noticed that watching it, re -watching

00:48:23.010 --> 00:48:26.849
it, that shot looked really good. And I think

00:48:26.849 --> 00:48:32.670
they did a lot of this with the Meep and the

00:48:32.670 --> 00:48:36.750
Wrath Warriors in the previous specials, like

00:48:36.750 --> 00:48:39.750
doing as much as they can practically. So yes,

00:48:39.869 --> 00:48:41.449
they might be using this big screen, but they're

00:48:41.449 --> 00:48:44.010
still dressing and building enough of the set

00:48:44.010 --> 00:48:47.769
in the foreground with real stuff to sell it

00:48:47.769 --> 00:48:50.869
for me anyway, like it didn't. take me out of

00:48:50.869 --> 00:48:53.909
it at all one thing i really uh like about this

00:48:53.909 --> 00:48:56.110
is is the doctor's music is on faith towards

00:48:56.110 --> 00:48:59.150
the end because he sounds quite almost bitter

00:48:59.150 --> 00:49:01.690
and cynical about it you know yeah at one stage

00:49:01.690 --> 00:49:04.170
in his his most stressed out moment describes

00:49:04.170 --> 00:49:07.230
faith as this radio excuse for not having to

00:49:07.230 --> 00:49:09.309
actually think about things you know but then

00:49:09.309 --> 00:49:11.889
at the end he admits that as much as he doesn't

00:49:11.889 --> 00:49:14.869
like faith he he needs it so there's a beautiful

00:49:14.869 --> 00:49:18.050
balance to that And, you know, he's a man of

00:49:18.050 --> 00:49:21.170
willful contradiction, the doctor, anyway. So

00:49:21.170 --> 00:49:24.409
I just kind of love the way that was done and

00:49:24.409 --> 00:49:26.590
the exact language used around it. And it's very

00:49:26.590 --> 00:49:30.090
respectful of believers and non -believers alike,

00:49:30.389 --> 00:49:34.210
I guess, in that respect. I think Moffat is quite

00:49:34.210 --> 00:49:38.030
deft and thoughtful in the way he approaches

00:49:38.030 --> 00:49:42.690
that kind of topic. Yeah. Oh, and one final thing.

00:49:42.750 --> 00:49:45.239
You know, you mentioned, obviously, this was

00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:46.980
this was Moffat's pitch like what if the doctor

00:49:46.980 --> 00:49:48.739
does that thing he did in Genesis of the Daleks

00:49:48.739 --> 00:49:51.980
but we just turn that into 50 minutes well this

00:49:51.980 --> 00:49:53.840
was another thing that got my brain working around

00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:57.719
the whole hmm are they are they deliberately

00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:01.139
you know is this the show dropping yet another

00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:03.980
meta thing in but anyway I'll try and tie that

00:50:03.980 --> 00:50:05.480
all up in a bow at the end of it when we get

00:50:05.480 --> 00:50:08.639
to our yeah what was your theory conversation

00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:12.780
here and the stuff about religion like Moffat

00:50:12.780 --> 00:50:14.820
had done a lot of that with the the church of

00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:17.699
the silence and in a way he's like doing more

00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:20.440
world building on top of that with filling God

00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:23.519
and, and all of this. But yeah, like, like you

00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:26.579
said, I feel like he engages with it more directly

00:50:26.579 --> 00:50:28.980
in this episode than he has done in the past.

00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:32.539
Like, you know, lines like, you know, faith being

00:50:32.539 --> 00:50:35.340
an excuse for not thinking. And it feels like

00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:38.400
more like on the nose than it was in the past

00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:40.260
where it was more dancing around it, which is

00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:43.800
like a reference to the church of. the silence

00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:49.360
or whatever um and uh although we did have like

00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:52.880
the the anglican soldiers they that they're a

00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:55.019
returning element as well aren't they because

00:50:55.019 --> 00:50:57.619
they popped up in previous stories yeah we had

00:50:57.619 --> 00:51:01.099
those guys in um oh gosh good man goes to war

00:51:01.099 --> 00:51:04.360
and uh was it in the angels oh yeah of course

00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:07.280
yeah the first one that matt shot wasn't it the

00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:13.059
old uh yeah that one so yeah uh well Speaking

00:51:13.059 --> 00:51:17.800
of which, shall we come on to 73 yards? I always

00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:20.900
get the number wrong. It is 73. 73, yeah. Sometimes

00:51:20.900 --> 00:51:24.619
I say 43 and I've no idea why. So it is 73. And

00:51:24.619 --> 00:51:27.860
I believe this was the first thing that Mitty

00:51:27.860 --> 00:51:34.199
Gibson shot, which is pretty impressive given

00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:36.780
how much is going on in this episode. It's a

00:51:36.780 --> 00:51:39.820
Dr. Light episode because they were working around.

00:51:40.510 --> 00:51:44.409
um and shoot his availability uh for this first

00:51:44.409 --> 00:51:49.710
run um but i think this is this is the one where

00:51:49.710 --> 00:51:51.869
there's some really really obvious connections

00:51:51.869 --> 00:51:54.170
with years and years which is like one of the

00:51:54.170 --> 00:51:57.869
big things that um that russell davis had done

00:51:57.869 --> 00:52:02.170
in between his two periods on doctor who um so

00:52:02.170 --> 00:52:04.429
you can really see a lot of that coming through

00:52:04.429 --> 00:52:12.260
um uh but it's also It's also like, yeah, like

00:52:12.260 --> 00:52:17.519
taking that necessity of we don't have the actor

00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:21.139
who's our lead available for the whole run, but

00:52:21.139 --> 00:52:24.920
really, really turning it into a virtue and showcasing

00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:29.760
Ruby as a character and using the absence of

00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:33.820
the Doctor as this really unsettling threat that

00:52:33.820 --> 00:52:37.579
catapults her into this nightmarish world. It's

00:52:37.579 --> 00:52:42.380
sort of like... When I was re -watching it, you

00:52:42.380 --> 00:52:46.679
can make a lot of connections to turn left, but

00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:50.960
it's done in an almost more disturbingly real

00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:58.099
-world way. It's about very real political positions,

00:52:58.260 --> 00:53:02.639
and there's a really clear hint of sexual violence

00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:06.360
or some sort of abuse with one of the assistants

00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:11.389
in the later half of the episode. um but yeah

00:53:11.389 --> 00:53:13.889
i thought there was loads loads going on in this

00:53:13.889 --> 00:53:19.130
one uh so one thing that generated a lot of discussion

00:53:19.130 --> 00:53:22.590
was like the resolution but before we get on

00:53:22.590 --> 00:53:24.869
to how it was all tied up what were your overall

00:53:24.869 --> 00:53:28.929
impressions of this this episode i really really

00:53:28.929 --> 00:53:32.070
like this um there were complaints at the time

00:53:32.070 --> 00:53:35.610
that we'd had you know whether we were about

00:53:35.610 --> 00:53:39.670
to have a doctor you know this and and an episode

00:53:39.670 --> 00:53:41.090
we'll talk about next week the very next one

00:53:41.090 --> 00:53:44.010
sort of put doctor light episodes back to back

00:53:44.010 --> 00:53:47.030
but for me not really a problem because the following

00:53:47.030 --> 00:53:50.989
one dot and bubble which we'll get to um i think

00:53:50.989 --> 00:53:56.179
you know you I think it's a fan thing to be aware

00:53:56.179 --> 00:53:58.539
there was less shooting time for Intuiti than

00:53:58.539 --> 00:54:01.099
necessarily... You feel their presence because

00:54:01.099 --> 00:54:04.239
they're always popping up in the messages. That's

00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:06.619
right. So they get the most out of their shooting

00:54:06.619 --> 00:54:09.420
days that they did have. But in this one, I think

00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:11.800
just unavoidably, it was going to have to be

00:54:11.800 --> 00:54:15.000
Ruby carrying it all on her own shoulders. They

00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:17.420
turned that into very much a feature, not a bug.

00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:24.349
It's very... We talked about how... Last week,

00:54:24.369 --> 00:54:27.909
or last episode, we discussed this. We were talking

00:54:27.909 --> 00:54:31.230
about what our expectations of what Russell T.

00:54:31.250 --> 00:54:35.769
Davis would bring back into the show from how

00:54:35.769 --> 00:54:37.690
he'd evolved as a writer. And in the meantime,

00:54:37.829 --> 00:54:39.409
of course, he'd done years and years. And we

00:54:39.409 --> 00:54:42.110
got a very, I think this is, maybe you already

00:54:42.110 --> 00:54:43.690
said this. Apologies if you did just a moment

00:54:43.690 --> 00:54:47.789
ago. But, you know, I think it's the most years

00:54:47.789 --> 00:54:51.070
and years influence feeling episode of the season.

00:54:52.589 --> 00:54:55.030
And there's even a wee touch of something like

00:54:55.030 --> 00:54:56.570
the second coming there, because there's a bit

00:54:56.570 --> 00:55:01.570
where Roger William is kind of laughing malevolently,

00:55:01.590 --> 00:55:03.210
and you see almost like those little white dots

00:55:03.210 --> 00:55:06.250
in his eyes. It's like that kind of demonic kind

00:55:06.250 --> 00:55:08.769
of feel to him, and you see that he is the absolute

00:55:08.769 --> 00:55:15.030
monster that he is implied to be. There is something

00:55:15.030 --> 00:55:18.489
deeply unsettling about it, and yet it's kind

00:55:18.489 --> 00:55:24.409
of... There's a warmth to it as well. Ruby's

00:55:24.409 --> 00:55:26.829
story, the bit I particularly love is that montage

00:55:26.829 --> 00:55:28.349
you get in the middle where they've chosen an

00:55:28.349 --> 00:55:31.190
old Libby Siffrey song and they just play out

00:55:31.190 --> 00:55:38.269
her sort of coming to terms with being halted

00:55:38.269 --> 00:55:42.250
by this phenomenon and almost in the end making

00:55:42.250 --> 00:55:45.590
peace with it. It becomes an old friend and then

00:55:45.590 --> 00:55:50.070
she realises it's... at some point she has this

00:55:50.070 --> 00:55:54.250
revelation um of what it all means and and and

00:55:54.250 --> 00:55:56.869
she goes you know come on we have work to do

00:55:56.869 --> 00:55:59.610
and she's talking to the the apparition and um

00:55:59.610 --> 00:56:02.030
but she looks back at the camera at that point

00:56:02.030 --> 00:56:04.210
so that's like another i noticed i nearly noticed

00:56:04.210 --> 00:56:06.630
that this time how she looks right at the camera

00:56:06.630 --> 00:56:09.289
in that moment of we've got work to do and again

00:56:09.289 --> 00:56:15.130
that's like a bit of a fourth wall yeah um uh

00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:19.000
i i know it's It is a slight, it's one of those

00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:20.679
things we're slightly inclined to roll our eyes

00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:23.059
at where we say, okay, how many years is Ruby

00:56:23.059 --> 00:56:26.739
supposed to have aged by now? And, you know,

00:56:26.739 --> 00:56:29.940
I guess there's only two ways you can really

00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:32.340
do that. You either add prosthetics to somebody

00:56:32.340 --> 00:56:35.219
which is never an entirely successful venture,

00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:38.380
or you do what they did here, sort of style her

00:56:38.380 --> 00:56:39.599
hair differently. Give her some big glasses.

00:56:41.239 --> 00:56:43.400
But on the other hand, it is the future. So,

00:56:43.460 --> 00:56:44.840
like, you know, you see, you know, when she's

00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:46.099
looking outside her window there with a glass

00:56:46.099 --> 00:56:50.860
of wine toasting her sort of frenemy there, you

00:56:50.860 --> 00:56:53.780
know, there are little nice touches like holograms,

00:56:53.780 --> 00:56:55.619
like Blade Runner type of holograms going on

00:56:55.619 --> 00:56:57.159
in the sky off in the background. And you think,

00:56:57.199 --> 00:57:01.119
well, you know, maybe the average, you know,

00:57:01.139 --> 00:57:03.519
40 -year -old does look like a 20 -year -old

00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:05.440
by that point because there's technological advances.

00:57:07.530 --> 00:57:09.929
So, you know, there's things like that. But yeah,

00:57:10.070 --> 00:57:11.889
I mean, I didn't get too distracted by stuff

00:57:11.889 --> 00:57:13.730
like that because I think the story itself is

00:57:13.730 --> 00:57:16.849
so compelling. I think it's really effectively

00:57:16.849 --> 00:57:21.409
written. And yeah, it's the one where Russell

00:57:21.409 --> 00:57:24.210
T. Davis sort of manages to get under your skin.

00:57:24.309 --> 00:57:28.210
There's a whole, you know, it's sort of like

00:57:28.210 --> 00:57:29.849
darkly comedic, you know, that whole business

00:57:29.849 --> 00:57:34.739
with the Welsh pub and the punters all. playing

00:57:34.739 --> 00:57:37.559
a collective practical joke on Ruby because they

00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:40.019
want to get back at the English for being so

00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:45.860
maybe stereotyping in how they view these Welsh

00:57:45.860 --> 00:57:49.340
villagers, you know. So that stuff's kind of

00:57:49.340 --> 00:57:52.059
scary and fun at the same time. But yeah, I just

00:57:52.059 --> 00:57:54.699
love the feel of it. I love that moment. There's

00:57:54.699 --> 00:57:57.579
something about the exterior shots have been

00:57:57.579 --> 00:58:02.559
filmed in December, as I believe it was. what

00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:04.440
that adds in terms of the quality of the light

00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:08.900
and the snow gently coming down. And I don't

00:58:08.900 --> 00:58:10.940
know if that on that occasion was real snow or

00:58:10.940 --> 00:58:14.679
ruby snow, but we have it nonetheless. And then,

00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:17.900
yeah, Susan Twist's appearance in that one is

00:58:17.900 --> 00:58:19.840
a really interesting one because it's her at

00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:25.659
her most benevolent, I guess, and friendly. And

00:58:25.659 --> 00:58:27.360
you start to think like, what is going on here?

00:58:27.380 --> 00:58:30.349
Like, you know, why is she so... different each

00:58:30.349 --> 00:58:33.409
time um and this is the point at which like she'd

00:58:33.409 --> 00:58:35.469
made several appearances and it was like okay

00:58:35.469 --> 00:58:38.849
they haven't just reused an actor that they liked

00:58:38.849 --> 00:58:42.429
there's yeah there's some significance to to

00:58:42.429 --> 00:58:46.849
this yeah so but the way that one wraps up um

00:58:46.849 --> 00:58:51.510
with the the return to the you know the book

00:58:51.510 --> 00:58:53.489
ending at the end I love that little payoff where

00:58:53.489 --> 00:58:55.650
where he says oh yeah you never mentioned the

00:58:55.650 --> 00:58:57.449
third time you were you were here in Wales and

00:58:57.449 --> 00:58:59.900
she just sort of says oh I suppose it must have

00:58:59.900 --> 00:59:03.840
been now, which is just the last lingering awareness

00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:10.059
of the reset timeline. And on re -watching it,

00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:14.400
it seems really clear to me on a re -watch that

00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:16.900
that is meant to be her. But I remember watching

00:59:16.900 --> 00:59:19.900
it the first time around and it felt more ambiguous

00:59:19.900 --> 00:59:23.260
or vague or there was some wriggle room of is

00:59:23.260 --> 00:59:26.659
that her or is the woman that she's seeing some

00:59:26.659 --> 00:59:30.690
other sort of external... entity that's jumping

00:59:30.690 --> 00:59:33.329
back in time but yeah looking at the way that

00:59:33.329 --> 00:59:36.769
the voiceover goes over the view of our hands

00:59:36.769 --> 00:59:40.869
moving it's it's older ruby telling her younger

00:59:40.869 --> 00:59:45.909
self how to avoid this timeline it's also one

00:59:45.909 --> 00:59:51.110
of those um in doctor who terms only only occasional

00:59:51.110 --> 00:59:54.989
episodes where really there's just a sort of

00:59:56.730 --> 01:00:00.150
unresolved ambiguity as to what the whole causation

01:00:00.150 --> 01:00:03.449
of it was, really. Yeah, the fairy circle has

01:00:03.449 --> 01:00:08.409
never come to be. Russell, I remember it was

01:00:08.409 --> 01:00:10.309
driving some people absolutely bonkers, and there

01:00:10.309 --> 01:00:12.909
was quite a divide between the people who said,

01:00:12.989 --> 01:00:15.230
look, it doesn't need to be explained, and those

01:00:15.230 --> 01:00:17.769
who were saying, no, it absolutely does. But

01:00:17.769 --> 01:00:20.630
I kind of tend to sit on the side of, look, if

01:00:20.630 --> 01:00:23.329
it's intentional and well done ambiguity, and

01:00:23.329 --> 01:00:26.679
half the power is in its mysteriousness, Then

01:00:26.679 --> 01:00:31.480
just take it for what it is and enjoy the atmosphere

01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:34.960
and the journey. Well, that's the other thing

01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:39.159
that's not explained is how her older self can

01:00:39.159 --> 01:00:43.179
loop back. And when we get to the finale, it

01:00:43.179 --> 01:00:45.099
suggests that there's something to do with the

01:00:45.099 --> 01:00:49.340
TARDIS because of that distance of the perception

01:00:49.340 --> 01:00:52.780
filter. But how does she actually even manage

01:00:52.780 --> 01:00:56.239
to go back and communicate with herself? Talking

01:00:56.239 --> 01:00:58.159
of the TARDIS, I remember one of the things I

01:00:58.159 --> 01:00:59.960
was thinking when I first watched it. I don't

01:00:59.960 --> 01:01:01.780
really think this now, but when I first watched

01:01:01.780 --> 01:01:06.039
it, it genuinely was in my mind that, you know,

01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:08.059
when she first goes to the TARDIS there, you

01:01:08.059 --> 01:01:11.739
know, he's disappeared. And she checks, you know,

01:01:11.739 --> 01:01:13.199
around the back and then she goes to the front

01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:15.500
doors and she's kind of talking. She goes back

01:01:15.500 --> 01:01:17.000
a day later and she's talking to him through

01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:19.460
the doors and going, look, maybe this is something

01:01:19.460 --> 01:01:24.119
you just sometimes do and you're in there. But

01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:25.739
I would really love to travel with you again.

01:01:25.820 --> 01:01:28.860
And if you ever want to do that, I'm here. But

01:01:28.860 --> 01:01:33.539
it occurred to me that he could very well be

01:01:33.539 --> 01:01:35.480
on the other side of those doors. And for some

01:01:35.480 --> 01:01:40.539
reason, he just needs to... It is one possible

01:01:40.539 --> 01:01:44.780
explanation, actually, that he did stay in there

01:01:44.780 --> 01:01:47.019
and that having perceived something that needed

01:01:47.019 --> 01:01:51.050
to loop and couldn't interfere in, he... he did

01:01:51.050 --> 01:01:53.269
what he needed to do and maybe did nudge things

01:01:53.269 --> 01:01:55.329
with the TARDIS from within or whatever. I don't

01:01:55.329 --> 01:01:59.829
know. I lean towards that not being the case

01:01:59.829 --> 01:02:02.130
now, but I like the fact that it's at least one

01:02:02.130 --> 01:02:06.670
of a number of possibilities. And on the face

01:02:06.670 --> 01:02:08.550
of it, you could take it as quite a cruel thing,

01:02:08.670 --> 01:02:10.590
but maybe just one of those needful things that

01:02:10.590 --> 01:02:12.230
the Doctor just has to do to get things back

01:02:12.230 --> 01:02:15.349
on track. I feel like he would have come, especially

01:02:15.349 --> 01:02:17.670
this Doctor, I feel like he would have come clean

01:02:17.670 --> 01:02:22.000
after it was all resolved. Yeah, possibly. Then,

01:02:22.099 --> 01:02:25.199
as he will later go on to say, there are no unkind

01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:28.360
ways to do the necessary to save someone or to

01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:33.079
save a situation. So, yeah, I don't know. One

01:02:33.079 --> 01:02:35.460
image I really love is just the TARDIS on that

01:02:35.460 --> 01:02:39.840
cliff top. I know I talked about this last week,

01:02:39.860 --> 01:02:42.039
but when David Tennant had his whole speech about

01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:44.340
what happens to the TARDIS when it goes off.

01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:47.699
And, you know, when the hads is triggered and

01:02:47.699 --> 01:02:49.800
it goes off somewhere and then centuries come

01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:53.639
and go and civilizations rise and fall. And we

01:02:53.639 --> 01:02:56.179
get that sort of in miniature here with the TARDIS

01:02:56.179 --> 01:02:59.320
just sitting there for decades. And it becomes

01:02:59.320 --> 01:03:02.260
this, it's something really moving about the

01:03:02.260 --> 01:03:03.840
fact that people come and leave flowers there

01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:07.260
and nobody really knows why. But there's probably

01:03:07.260 --> 01:03:10.960
this just residual gratitude in people for something

01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:14.719
that they intuitively recognize to be, you know,

01:03:15.070 --> 01:03:18.510
associated with it's the iconography of the guy

01:03:18.510 --> 01:03:20.369
who saved the universe more times than anyone

01:03:20.369 --> 01:03:22.769
can count and they they feel it more than know

01:03:22.769 --> 01:03:27.989
it you know um so yeah there's a lot of poetry

01:03:27.989 --> 01:03:30.769
and atmosphere in it and i just love i just i

01:03:30.769 --> 01:03:33.909
really i just i could watch it over and over

01:03:33.909 --> 01:03:38.429
and over again and just um so so one of our like

01:03:38.429 --> 01:03:42.070
wrap -up questions was like which which of these

01:03:42.070 --> 01:03:46.110
um these five episodes is your favorite and i

01:03:46.110 --> 01:03:48.750
really struggle to answer that question and not

01:03:48.750 --> 01:03:50.909
to be too negative but it's like space babies

01:03:50.909 --> 01:03:54.110
is the weak one for me or the or the least good

01:03:54.110 --> 01:04:00.449
it's it's like okay um i'd then place uh like

01:04:00.449 --> 01:04:02.429
church on ruby road it's like that solid intro

01:04:02.429 --> 01:04:07.530
but these last three i really like all three

01:04:07.530 --> 01:04:11.920
of them devil's cord boom and um 73 yards and

01:04:11.920 --> 01:04:15.199
i feel like they they're all really good and

01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:18.480
interesting in different ways um so i really

01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:21.539
struggle to rank those last three but do you

01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:26.260
have a favorite that jumps out it's similar to

01:04:26.260 --> 01:04:29.860
yourself i would say space babies yeah i i couldn't

01:04:29.860 --> 01:04:32.079
argue with you that that's the weakest as much

01:04:32.079 --> 01:04:35.340
as i seem to enjoy it more than some other people

01:04:35.340 --> 01:04:39.840
and maybe you do as well and uh Then I would

01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:44.059
put Church next and then The Devil's Chord would

01:04:44.059 --> 01:04:47.679
be like a strong 8 out of 10 for me. But those

01:04:47.679 --> 01:04:53.099
two, Boom and 73 Yards, sit like shoulder to

01:04:53.099 --> 01:04:56.840
shoulder as just like, certainly out of the first

01:04:56.840 --> 01:05:01.460
half of this season, the strongest ones, like

01:05:01.460 --> 01:05:04.900
they're 9 or 10 out of 10 for me. They just hold

01:05:04.900 --> 01:05:07.739
up to repeated view time and time again. and

01:05:07.739 --> 01:05:09.880
just been for the ride every time you know just

01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:14.940
mesmerized yeah and and given okay so we're both

01:05:14.940 --> 01:05:18.179
a bit mixed on space babies but maybe see like

01:05:18.179 --> 01:05:20.900
some some value in it but um like more than more

01:05:20.900 --> 01:05:23.780
than others might but one other question we had

01:05:23.780 --> 01:05:26.099
is like if there was a someone new to doctor

01:05:26.099 --> 01:05:29.099
who or hadn't watched it in ages where would

01:05:29.099 --> 01:05:31.119
you tell them to start with this new era would

01:05:31.119 --> 01:05:35.519
it be the star beast or Church and Ruby Road,

01:05:35.780 --> 01:05:40.360
or would it be Space Babies? I think I'd go with

01:05:40.360 --> 01:05:42.519
Church. I think I'd have to go with Church and

01:05:42.519 --> 01:05:44.179
Ruby Road on that one. I just think it's the

01:05:44.179 --> 01:05:47.760
cleanest kind of break. And Space Babies is...

01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:50.059
I'm not saying it's too weak an episode to start

01:05:50.059 --> 01:05:54.460
with, but I wouldn't want... If it was a betting

01:05:54.460 --> 01:05:56.360
round, I wouldn't fancy my chances of getting

01:05:56.360 --> 01:05:58.260
somebody to watch a further episode after Space

01:05:58.260 --> 01:06:00.940
Babies. They might, you know, depend, because

01:06:00.940 --> 01:06:03.630
everybody's got radically different tastes. of

01:06:03.630 --> 01:06:05.469
what they like out of their doctor who and you

01:06:05.469 --> 01:06:06.989
could show some everybody's had the experience

01:06:06.989 --> 01:06:10.630
of well well not everybody but a number of fans

01:06:10.630 --> 01:06:12.769
like what i've tried over the years to sort of

01:06:12.769 --> 01:06:15.130
get some not we into watching doctor who and

01:06:15.130 --> 01:06:18.250
you choose you think that's city of death surely

01:06:18.250 --> 01:06:19.929
that's the one you show them city of death and

01:06:19.929 --> 01:06:22.710
they just five minutes and it's like i can't

01:06:22.710 --> 01:06:24.429
you know and you're going are you kidding me

01:06:24.429 --> 01:06:25.829
this is like one of the best things ever made

01:06:25.829 --> 01:06:30.050
but um yes maybe i could have shown them paradise

01:06:30.050 --> 01:06:32.159
towers and they'd have been like right Give me

01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:34.380
everything else. I don't know. It's a strange

01:06:34.380 --> 01:06:37.460
alchemy, that whole business. But yes, church

01:06:37.460 --> 01:06:40.179
to me feels like the one where you go, right,

01:06:40.219 --> 01:06:42.760
you're not being presented with, as it were,

01:06:42.820 --> 01:06:44.500
a choice of doctors, you know, because somebody

01:06:44.500 --> 01:06:49.699
watching the tenant ones and then sort of seeing

01:06:49.699 --> 01:06:52.880
and should he come in, it's like maybe they were

01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:54.860
just getting, maybe they were just warming up

01:06:54.860 --> 01:06:57.079
the tenant, you know, somebody new. And then

01:06:57.079 --> 01:06:58.519
they're given this whole other Doctor and they're

01:06:58.519 --> 01:07:00.059
like, oh, but I want to know more about this

01:07:00.059 --> 01:07:01.599
other guy and I know he's got older episodes,

01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:03.780
so maybe they're kind of pulled back towards

01:07:03.780 --> 01:07:05.639
that instead of forwards towards the shitty.

01:07:06.099 --> 01:07:09.340
Whereas with Church and Ruby Road, it's like

01:07:09.340 --> 01:07:14.280
you're giving him fresh out of the box and kind

01:07:14.280 --> 01:07:16.860
of firing on all cylinders and showing a lot

01:07:16.860 --> 01:07:20.360
of range. Yeah, I think I agree that Church is

01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:23.260
the most solid introduction. The only wrinkle

01:07:23.260 --> 01:07:27.230
is that there are all these little bits that

01:07:27.230 --> 01:07:30.349
are set up in those tenant specials and one of

01:07:30.349 --> 01:07:33.190
the big ones is the the weakening of the walls

01:07:33.190 --> 01:07:37.329
of reality with salt and it's not essential but

01:07:37.329 --> 01:07:41.349
maybe maybe the ideal order is like non -linear

01:07:41.349 --> 01:07:44.989
is to start with church on ruby road and go forward

01:07:44.989 --> 01:07:48.989
through that first season and then if you're

01:07:48.989 --> 01:07:51.170
really enjoying it and waiting for the next season

01:07:51.170 --> 01:07:54.590
go back and like almost as a prequel fill in

01:07:54.590 --> 01:07:58.019
those um yeah those uh those tenant specials

01:07:58.019 --> 01:07:59.820
and then go back to the classic series if you

01:07:59.820 --> 01:08:04.019
want but uh yeah church on bruby road is that

01:08:04.019 --> 01:08:09.360
sort of it's it's not overly laden with the history

01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:13.559
of the show unlike when we got onto the the finale

01:08:13.559 --> 01:08:17.399
which is sort of the opposite um and because

01:08:17.399 --> 01:08:20.260
the salt because because a new fan starting there

01:08:20.260 --> 01:08:22.300
and i mean a completely new fan starting there

01:08:23.079 --> 01:08:25.779
has no awareness that doctor has tended not to

01:08:25.779 --> 01:08:27.939
lean quite so far into the supernatural before

01:08:27.939 --> 01:08:30.340
it's not a problem for them it doesn't seem as

01:08:30.340 --> 01:08:33.939
this you know and then then they can discover

01:08:33.939 --> 01:08:35.899
if they dip back in that it used to be a bit

01:08:35.899 --> 01:08:40.060
more so it's different yeah so one last question

01:08:40.060 --> 01:08:42.439
before we we wrap up and it's that one that we've

01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:46.079
been sort of skirting around is so when we were

01:08:46.079 --> 01:08:48.500
watching this first time around we were halfway

01:08:48.500 --> 01:08:52.390
through the season we had these new little uh

01:08:52.390 --> 01:08:55.029
you know new choices about inclusion of music

01:08:55.029 --> 01:08:57.590
and playing around with lines about it being

01:08:57.590 --> 01:09:00.430
non -diegetic and people looking to camera and

01:09:00.430 --> 01:09:04.649
what were the what were the theories that were

01:09:04.649 --> 01:09:07.270
sort of in the air about where this was all going

01:09:07.270 --> 01:09:11.930
um i know that my own personal theory which i

01:09:11.930 --> 01:09:16.319
think you know substantially came just from my

01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:19.220
my own madness but but i think i picked up bits

01:09:19.220 --> 01:09:21.539
and pieces from from you know discussions on

01:09:21.539 --> 01:09:23.520
gallifrey race and so on as well and assimilated

01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:25.539
bits of that in a magpie fashion into this great

01:09:25.539 --> 01:09:29.220
unified theory um and basically what i was thinking

01:09:29.220 --> 01:09:35.779
was um that that the show was trying to build

01:09:35.779 --> 01:09:38.819
up a was seeding in the whole way along this

01:09:38.819 --> 01:09:42.239
notion that was going to resolve in in a in a

01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:46.960
a blind siding um to the casual view or any way

01:09:46.960 --> 01:09:49.640
revelation that that doctor who actually is a

01:09:49.640 --> 01:09:51.699
tv program and the doctor doesn't know that he's

01:09:51.699 --> 01:09:54.279
been in this tv program which of course would

01:09:54.279 --> 01:09:56.520
not ultimately turn out to be the case but that's

01:09:56.520 --> 01:09:58.300
what he would be set up at the end of season

01:09:58.300 --> 01:10:00.899
to believe and i even had this vision that um

01:10:01.529 --> 01:10:03.430
you know, like Stephen Powell was going to walk

01:10:03.430 --> 01:10:05.750
in and sort of, and you'd pull back and it'd

01:10:05.750 --> 01:10:08.350
be cameras sitting there and, you know, mad stuff

01:10:08.350 --> 01:10:11.710
like that, you know, in Bad Wolf Studios. It's

01:10:11.710 --> 01:10:15.289
not unprecedented. There's, you know, like Deep

01:10:15.289 --> 01:10:17.970
Space Nine and Buffy and I'm sure loads of other

01:10:17.970 --> 01:10:21.789
shows have done that. Maybe not as a series long

01:10:21.789 --> 01:10:24.250
arc, but they've, like a lot of these sci -fi

01:10:24.250 --> 01:10:26.350
shows have had that one episode that sort of

01:10:26.350 --> 01:10:28.770
plays with the idea of, you know, what if this

01:10:28.770 --> 01:10:31.569
is all in? our lead character's head or you know

01:10:31.569 --> 01:10:34.550
what if this is a show that they've they've written

01:10:34.550 --> 01:10:37.050
and it's sort of become their imagined reality

01:10:37.050 --> 01:10:40.310
and so yeah it's not completely out there i'll

01:10:40.310 --> 01:10:44.289
tell you what the um the real kind of i know

01:10:44.289 --> 01:10:46.649
russell t this is where particularly took hold

01:10:46.649 --> 01:10:49.470
of my head as a very uh plausible possibility

01:10:49.470 --> 01:10:52.810
and then it's my own fault that it ran you know

01:10:52.810 --> 01:10:55.050
the theory absolutely ran away with me and i

01:10:55.050 --> 01:10:59.539
got a bit too fixated and turned every non -relevant

01:10:59.539 --> 01:11:02.000
detail into something of significance i could

01:11:02.000 --> 01:11:03.520
start listening to them all but but it would

01:11:03.520 --> 01:11:07.579
be it would take all night but um there's i know

01:11:07.579 --> 01:11:11.100
russell t davis is a big fan of um or at least

01:11:11.100 --> 01:11:13.020
a big advocate of big finish i know he's listened

01:11:13.020 --> 01:11:15.279
to a lot of big finish and it wouldn't necessarily

01:11:15.279 --> 01:11:18.399
be just doctor who stuff and there's a story

01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:20.779
it's a sapphire and steel story called the mystery

01:11:20.779 --> 01:11:24.359
of the missing hour and i wondered had he heard

01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:28.220
that or had he taken that kind of idea Well,

01:11:28.420 --> 01:11:30.140
I guess this is a spoiler for anyone who hasn't

01:11:30.140 --> 01:11:32.180
heard that, but then the chances of anybody who's

01:11:32.180 --> 01:11:35.340
listening to this wanting to hear it is probably

01:11:35.340 --> 01:11:38.180
relatively slim, you know, or be able to get

01:11:38.180 --> 01:11:41.800
hold of it at this point. But it's a story in

01:11:41.800 --> 01:11:45.899
which the twist is revealed to be that the people

01:11:45.899 --> 01:11:50.619
in this audio drama are actually in. they're

01:11:50.619 --> 01:11:52.720
trapped in a recording studio acting out these

01:11:52.720 --> 01:11:54.699
parts and they don't even know it you know so

01:11:54.699 --> 01:11:56.520
they've become their sort of fictional counterparts

01:11:56.520 --> 01:12:00.619
but they're also doing things like they begin

01:12:00.619 --> 01:12:03.220
to realize as they come as they gain awareness

01:12:03.220 --> 01:12:06.939
of the fact that for instance actors are doubling

01:12:06.939 --> 01:12:08.600
up and things like that and then no two people

01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:11.539
can talk at this you know two particular Characters

01:12:11.539 --> 01:12:13.500
can't talk at the same time because it's the

01:12:13.500 --> 01:12:17.319
same actor. And all this sort of starts to break

01:12:17.319 --> 01:12:18.939
down their conditioning so they begin to realise

01:12:18.939 --> 01:12:22.199
where they are and what's been going on. And

01:12:22.199 --> 01:12:25.460
so I tried to look for the sort of television

01:12:25.460 --> 01:12:27.640
equivalence in this season because I thought

01:12:27.640 --> 01:12:29.159
they were starting to see that in, you know,

01:12:29.180 --> 01:12:33.640
with... The non -diegetic line. Yeah, non -diegetic

01:12:33.640 --> 01:12:35.739
was one example. I mean, just to use a totally

01:12:35.739 --> 01:12:39.260
random one, at the end of Boom... there's a moment

01:12:39.260 --> 01:12:42.079
where the doctor is standing at the TARDIS door

01:12:42.079 --> 01:12:45.840
talking about, you know, snow isn't snow until

01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:48.760
it falls and so on. And he's rummaging around

01:12:48.760 --> 01:12:50.840
in his pockets looking distracted and he's clearly

01:12:50.840 --> 01:12:52.680
after, he's clearly looking for the key, the

01:12:52.680 --> 01:12:57.020
TARDIS key. But he looks sort of distracted by

01:12:57.020 --> 01:12:58.640
a thought, like something's not quite adding

01:12:58.640 --> 01:13:01.420
up for him. And then Ruby just hands him the

01:13:01.420 --> 01:13:04.659
TARDIS key from her pocket to him and he goes

01:13:04.659 --> 01:13:07.869
and unlocks the door. And in that moment... completely

01:13:07.869 --> 01:13:10.770
incorrectly as it turns out, I was going, that's

01:13:10.770 --> 01:13:13.829
the one that sells it for me. I think I'm all

01:13:13.829 --> 01:13:17.250
to something with this theory because what they've

01:13:17.250 --> 01:13:20.149
done there is they've very cleverly given you

01:13:20.149 --> 01:13:23.470
a moment where a prop that's shared, you know,

01:13:23.470 --> 01:13:25.550
a single prop that's shared between two actors

01:13:25.550 --> 01:13:29.029
is shown, literally been handed across on camera.

01:13:29.369 --> 01:13:33.159
And against this sort of... You could argue a

01:13:33.159 --> 01:13:35.319
slightly intentionally fakey -looking background

01:13:35.319 --> 01:13:37.380
with the volume or whatever you want to call

01:13:37.380 --> 01:13:38.779
that thing. I think it was still really well

01:13:38.779 --> 01:13:41.720
done, but if you were the sort of person who

01:13:41.720 --> 01:13:44.739
thought it maybe looked a bit set -like, you

01:13:44.739 --> 01:13:48.279
could say this is TV telegraphing itself as TV.

01:13:48.760 --> 01:13:51.600
Now, obviously, the way the series ultimately

01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:55.100
went, I was initially very disappointed because

01:13:55.100 --> 01:13:57.380
none of the steering got blown out of the water

01:13:57.380 --> 01:14:00.460
completely down the line. Or it's still to play

01:14:00.460 --> 01:14:02.500
out in a later season, but I don't think that

01:14:02.500 --> 01:14:05.279
that's where we're going anymore. Yeah, let's

01:14:05.279 --> 01:14:08.680
definitely come back to that in our next episode

01:14:08.680 --> 01:14:12.060
because, yes, it was blown out of the water by

01:14:12.060 --> 01:14:14.979
the end of season one, but if you look at the

01:14:14.979 --> 01:14:20.199
season two trailer, there's fresh stuff that

01:14:20.199 --> 01:14:25.079
you could use as fuel to think about the walls

01:14:25.079 --> 01:14:28.569
of reality being. No, I've learned my lesson.

01:14:28.970 --> 01:14:31.470
It's just that you're right to be that the candy

01:14:31.470 --> 01:14:34.510
man's coming back or something. No, I'm thinking

01:14:34.510 --> 01:14:37.569
in particular of that cartoon character that's

01:14:37.569 --> 01:14:42.890
featured in the new trailer in season two. There's

01:14:42.890 --> 01:14:46.569
something literally there about a fictional character

01:14:46.569 --> 01:14:50.470
jumping out of a screen. But yeah, we'll see.

01:14:50.569 --> 01:14:54.529
We'll see soon. At the time of recording, just

01:14:54.529 --> 01:14:59.369
a few... weeks off um yeah from the new series

01:14:59.369 --> 01:15:04.810
okay all right uh well we'll we'll leave it there

01:15:04.810 --> 01:15:08.390
we've uh we've got the second half of the the

01:15:08.390 --> 01:15:10.829
series to jump into and and like i said when

01:15:10.829 --> 01:15:13.970
we cover that second half and joy to the world

01:15:13.970 --> 01:15:16.369
which i think will be a nice uh which is one

01:15:16.369 --> 01:15:18.289
that you know you were really positive on and

01:15:18.289 --> 01:15:21.050
i i liked a lot as well and that'll be a nice

01:15:21.050 --> 01:15:24.159
uh nice one to end on and then we'll talk a little

01:15:24.159 --> 01:15:26.119
bit about all my homework this time instead of

01:15:26.119 --> 01:15:30.439
uh yeah and then we'll we'll do a little bit

01:15:30.439 --> 01:15:33.979
of speculation and looking forward to season

01:15:33.979 --> 01:15:37.239
two as well and uh and thoughts and then yeah

01:15:37.239 --> 01:15:40.479
let's let's see whether our predictions for season

01:15:40.479 --> 01:15:42.819
two pan out or not over the next couple of months

01:15:42.819 --> 01:15:49.600
um but uh yeah so Thanks very much for joining

01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:54.119
me again for this look back at the middle part

01:15:54.119 --> 01:16:02.359
of RTD2 so far. And yes, we will see you soon

01:16:02.359 --> 01:16:04.020
for part three.