You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality.
Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality.
I'm Johnstone and with me I have Connor.
Hello.
And we're here on this, this February evening in the Spodcast Coffee Bar.
We've not been here for a while, there's a few cobwebs.
The Cyberman that was working here last time seems to have cleared off.
So we've had to make our own coffee, but it's still here.
Oh, you're on tea as well.
I am on tea.
You're not on coffee.
Yeah.
I'm actually on hot vimto at the minute.
I seem to be going through a bit of a hot vimto phase.
There's a bar, it's sort of a shop, record shopping cafe in the day and a bar in the
evening that I DJ in sometimes and they do hot vimto.
And I just went in and saw hot vimto, yeah, really fancy that.
I had that one day.
You have taken a notion for it.
Yeah.
And I've kind of, I've run with the concept.
So maybe we need to be called the Spodcast Vimto Bar.
And as you know, I'm roughly Manchester based, the home of vimto.
I'm happy with that.
For Northern Ireland, it's probably Buckfast and the less said about that, the better.
The Spodcast Buckfast Bar.
No, we're not going there.
No, we're never recording that.
No, no, that would not end well.
I would say what I really think about Doctor Who.
There was once, I think it was back when we did the Caves of Andrazani commentary, which
we did across sort of two episodes in our second Spodcast season.
At the end of it, a few of us did sort of suggest, right, let's get onto Twin Dilemma,
but we've got to down a bottle of whiskey each first.
And that could perhaps be the greatest recorded thing ever linked to Doctor Who ever.
I think it might be the last thing we ever record.
It could be, yeah.
It's like if we ever decide to cancel Spodcast, if we ever spod our last cast, I reckon that's
how we go out.
Just like a big, horrible, slurry Twin Dilemma mess.
And we'll be talking about it while drunk.
My imagination is running wild.
And yeah, I don't think that's a thing the world needs to hear.
I mean, I don't think the Twin Dilemma is a thing the world needs to see, but it has
been present with us for 40 years now.
I don't know if you're one of those people who ever watches reaction videos on YouTube,
but I very occasionally check in on Seska says, because she's working her way through
classic Doctor Who and her reactions are incredible.
Because she's going into this almost completely blind.
She's seen the new series, but she doesn't know what's coming when.
So it's quite special whenever Sarah Jane Smith turns up and she loses her mind.
But she recently got to the caves of Andrazani and had no idea that it was Peter Davison's
last story.
And you get to that final scene and she only realizes that a regeneration is coming when
the doctor gives Perry the milk, you know, the bat's milk.
And she realizes once he looks at the empty file, she's like, oh no, it's the end for
him and it's going to be, there's going to be a regeneration.
So I've watched that and it's genuinely, it's an incredible reaction video.
It's astounding to see someone watching that moment play out in real time.
And then I got suggested video, Twin Dilemma, part one, part two reaction.
And I just thought, no, I'm not going to spoil, I'm not going to spoil this lovely moment
by watching the reaction to the Twin Dilemma.
It's a bizarre sort of jolting quality, isn't it?
Like we do go from pretty much the best Doctor Who story ever to pretty much the worst Doctor
Who story ever.
Kind of needlessly, as I like, you don't need, a new doctor is a good place to leave
a series.
You don't need to see the doctor's first adventure straight after, you know, a week
after the old one has shuffled off.
You know, I still find it bizarre that the Twin Dilemma is part of season 21.
It feels wrong.
I quite like it.
I can sort of, I like it as an idea.
I like it as here's a little bit more of a tease of the new doctor, but you've got to
make the new doctor sort of watchable if you're doing that.
And like he strangles the companion and that's not really the sort of thing that says tune
back in in six months, kids.
I mean, I mean, that scene is not the only problem with that story.
It's probably the biggest problem with that story, but it's not the only problem with
that story.
And I just sort of think that it's actually a really good idea, particularly like when
it was made and that kind of thing.
And you know, you get more than that little scene at the end of an episode, whatever.
I do like that and I do think it can work.
It's something I kind of wish that the new series had done on occasion.
It's a shame, you know, maybe we could have got Eccleston back just for the first half
of series two or something.
I mean, I know it's not that simple, but you know, a regeneration at about the time of
the Cyberman two-parter in series two, that could have been interesting because I'm sick
and tired of meeting new doctors at Christmas.
That's all we've ever done with new who?
And I don't want that.
So yeah, it's very odd.
So yeah, I think the idea was sound.
But the other thing, I suppose, season 21, it ends with a completely different set of
regulars than it starts.
Like it starts off with the fifth doctor, Tegan and Turlo, and it ends with the sixth
doctor and Perry.
And Perry kind of turns up basically to make friends with the fifth doctor and then watch
him die.
Yeah, there's some kind of dramatic stuff that can be found in that, I guess.
But again, it's kind of all thrown away by the way that the sixth doctor is presented
in Twin Dilemma.
If it was me, I'd have kept Turlo on.
I'd have had Turlo just see out the regeneration.
He could have gone two or three stories in.
He could have stayed on Varos to be the new governor or something like that.
I don't know.
But just a little bit of regeneration continuity could have helped, I think.
And I think that's the biggest problem is that it's a new doctor and a new companion
not being handled particularly well.
And that's what makes A, Twin Dilemma bad and B, it a really, really bad end to actually
a very, very good series of Doctor Who.
Yeah, I don't think there's anything could improve the Twin Dilemma.
To be honest with you, I don't.
I think I would much rather pick up with I wonder how easy it is to do.
I wonder how easy it is.
Can you cut the Twin Dilemma out and just skip straight ahead and start with Attack
of the Cybermen?
Oh, totally.
Yeah.
Because there's references in Attack of the Cybermen about how he's struggled a bit since
his regeneration, but he's starting to settle down now.
Yeah.
Isn't the...
I can't remember exactly what it was now, but there is sort of a, oh, you know, ever
since your regeneration, this has happened, this has happened, and this has happened.
Yeah.
No, I think it works.
Yeah.
I don't like kicking the sex doctor at all because Colin Baker is a wonderful doctor
and I cannot fault Colin Baker one bit.
I think the sex doctor is wonderful now.
I don't think the doctor is the problem with the Twin Dilemma at all.
I think the way the doctor is presented is I think there are production decisions there
that kind of really, really go against him.
But Colin Baker's brilliant.
The sex doctor's brilliant.
He just comes across as a really lovely man.
We love Colin.
We do.
I just wish Twin Dilemma wasn't his first story.
I just wish Twin Dilemma wasn't a story.
Yes.
But yeah, it's just, it's so jarring.
See, this is what I'm saying.
I have actually seen the Twin Dilemma and I haven't seen all of Colin Baker's other
stories.
I'm pretty sure.
So I don't know why I've seen the Twin Dilemma.
Like why did I actively choose to watch that story?
Because it's the exciting follow up to The Caves of Ambrose Arnie.
That genuinely might have been the reason.
I think I did a big fifth Doctor Marathon a couple of years ago.
He did all of his TV stories and worked in a couple of big finish stories as well.
And it's one of the best things I've ever done in terms of Doctor Who.
I had such good fun with that.
That was fantastic.
I think I did The Keeper of Tracking and Legopolis as a little prologue.
And I think I did the Twin Dilemma as a coda to the whole run.
And that's why I've seen it.
I do think I did it because it was following up on Caves of Ambrose Arnie.
And I wish I had just ended with Caves of Ambrose Arnie.
I suppose the thing that we can take comfort in is that The Sixth Doctor's never ever that
bad again.
Like Timelash comes really close.
But it tries to be as bad as Twin Dilemma, but it doesn't quite get there.
But yeah, it's unfortunate that it's his first story and that it follows Caves of Ambrose
Arnie and all these other things.
And unfortunately, I agree with you.
I think it is irredeemable, the story itself.
So we've started off our coffee bar episode by talking about the worst Doctor Who story.
Or one of them.
One of them anyway.
Is there anything that you think is worse?
We're always so positive and happy and isn't everything brilliant on this podcast?
We never talk about the rubbish.
Is there anything you think is worse than the Twin Dilemma?
I'm having to think really hard about that.
I'm not keen on...
Actually, do you know what I saw recently?
And I actively, I was really annoyed by it.
I watched Delta and the Bannermen for the first time recently.
And Doctor Who in the 1980s deserved every single thing I got.
That was dreadful.
Oh, I like it.
See, this is the thing.
Everyone seems to like it.
And I'm watching it.
I'm seeing all those people in their silly costumes getting off the silly bus.
And I'm just looking at this thinking, my god, Michael Gray was right.
Doctor Who absolutely deserved to be buried in some vault somewhere and never seen again.
I wouldn't stick it on and show it to somebody who's not a fan.
Like I'd never put it on in front of somebody and go, watch this, it's bloody brilliant.
It has its flaws.
It wears those flaws on its sleeve.
But I think it's exactly the production it was intended to be.
And that's the problem.
That's the problem.
The problem is that Delta and the Bannermen, one, got made.
Two, got made as intended.
And three, that was the sort of program that people in charge were looking to make at that
time.
It's just completely...
It's complete and utter dross.
What I can't get my head around is two stories later, it's Remembrance of the Daleks, which
is one of the best Doctor Who stories ever made.
How do you just yo-yo in terms of quality?
It is such absolute whiplash.
The next year they're doing Remembrance of the Daleks.
The year after that they're doing Battlefield and Survival.
That is proper top drawer, Doctor Who.
It looks pretty dreadful.
The budget's not there.
And I think that was the big problem, was that Doctor Who looked as bad as it did.
Because if you go and look at a lot of other TV that was being made at the time, it doesn't
look that rubbish.
And Doctor Who did, quite frankly.
I know that's part of the charm of it.
And I know it's cheap of me or shallow of me to say, oh, it looks a bit rubbish and
the sets are wobbly and all that sort of thing.
But it wasn't keeping up with the rest of the TV industry.
But I don't know.
I don't know.
I think I would not say Doctor Who deserved what it got in the late 1980s if they had
skipped season 24 and just gone straight into the whole tone and atmosphere of season 25
and 26.
But the problem is season 24 exists and Delta and the Bannermen exists.
And to some extent Paradise Towers exists.
I was about to say at the very least, we've got Paradise Towers.
Oh no, disagreement.
I really like Paradise Towers.
I do like Paradise Towers up until the last episode.
I do not like the chief caretaker and it drags the story down for me.
I believe this may be wrong.
I may be about to malign this poor man in the wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.
Was that, am I right in saying that was deliberate sabotage on his part because he thought it
was a bit rubbish and couldn't be bothered acting well?
I don't know.
What I do know is that Richard Browse was a fantastic actor.
I mean, he blew me away when he did Torchwood.
Yes.
But Paradise Towers.
Yeah.
I mean, he blew me away, but yeah, not good.
I don't know.
It did feel like he was sending the whole thing up a bit.
It's funny because I'm watching at the moment, I'm watching the season 18 box set.
Some of the best Doctor Who ever made.
Well yeah, in my opinion, the best Doctor Who ever made.
I mean, this will probably go out long before it does, but we're going to record season
by season 18 over the next week or two.
So I'm kind of doing the homework for that.
And I'm watching all of the extras on the Blu-ray discs and stuff.
And something that pops up in just about every single one of the making of documentaries,
usually mentioned by Lala Ward actually, is the best actors in Doctor Who came in and
took it seriously.
They didn't send it up.
They might have gone, oh, the effects are a bit rubbish and it's a bit camp and the
script's not a main blah, blah, blah.
But they threw everything at it and still gave an amazing performance when there was
the potential to go a bit silly.
I think the example in point might have been a state of decay when, you know, it would
have been very easy for the three vampires to just completely camp it up.
And it is very camp.
It's a very camp performance, but they're taking it seriously.
They are taking the scripts.
They are going, the script is asking me to do exactly this.
And that's exactly what they're doing.
We need look no further than Nicholas Parsons in The Curse of Fenrick.
Yes.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
That's, I mean, that's got to be up there with one of the best performances in Doctor
Who and not necessarily somebody you would have expected such a brilliant performance
from.
However, when we did season by season 17, which I still don't actually think will be
out when this is so spoilers for future podcast episodes, we point out that in The Horns of
Nightmont, Graham Crowden is doing exactly the right thing.
It's a really, really over the top and slightly silly performance, but that's what the script's
asking for.
That's what Douglas Adams wanted.
That's what Graham Williams wanted.
He involved, wanted a silly over the top camp performance and everybody is on the same page
with The Horns of Nightmont.
Everyone's doing exactly the same thing.
And therefore, same with Delta and the Bannermen, it's exactly what the production is meant
to be.
It's what's intended.
It's not someone going off piste as I suspect Paradise Towers was.
Yes.
What's the modern equivalent to that?
It was the guy out of The Power of Three and they had to like recut the whole episode around.
Oh, Stephen Berkoff.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
It feels like the modern era is equivalent to Paradise Towers in that sort of situation
where the actor just doesn't take the role seriously.
And again, maybe this is slander, maybe there were very valid reasons, but I believe that
whole ending was reshot to remove most of that performance in The Power of Three.
And I think you can pretty clearly see that in some of the continuity on screen.
It definitely comes across as a bit chopped together with what they could, which is a
shame.
I like Power of Three.
It's a good story.
I know.
I always liked it.
I thought I like it's a change of pace and it's quite a good little story about that,
you know, that slow invasion thing with the cubes invading over the course of the year
just by becoming normal parts of our lives.
It's a good story.
It's a great idea.
And as you say, it just it all falls apart in the last couple of minutes, I think through
no fault of the writers or production team.
Which is a shame because it's Amy and Rory's last big hurrah really, isn't it?
I mean, I know we've got their actual departure story one week later, but in the angels story,
they're very much like thrown into a series of events that ultimately dictate they can
no longer travel with the Doctor.
There's no nice bit before it.
The story starts and then boom, that's it.
It's just misery and grimness and bye bye Amy and Rory.
The Power of Three is the proper goodbye.
I think the very last thing that Karen Gillan and Arthur Darfell filmed was the last shot
of the Power of Three with a walk into the Tardis with the Doctor.
Perfect.
I think that was the very last thing they did on Doctor Who.
I do wish we'd have got that scene at the end of Power of Three.
I think it was, was it released as like a rough animation or an audio recording or something
like reading even, which was somebody knocking on Rory's dad's door and sort of delivering
a letter like Back to the Future style.
Yes.
What was that called?
Postscript?
Yes.
I think.
I wish that had actually been part of that episode.
Yes.
I think that would have been quite nice.
Like it had given Brian closure even if not the Doctor because the Doctor needs to go
and do the snowmen and sort of find his purpose in that.
But yeah, Brian deserved closure.
Of course he did.
I was just gonna say they don't really do that sort of supplemental material now anymore.
I know that was the case and that being written and filmed and then the animatic was done.
But like when you used to get around that time, there were many episodes.
Like what was that?
Remember the run up to Asylum of the Daleks that did that Keeping Up with the Pawns thing?
Yeah, when they ended up having the Ood live with the Ood.
Yeah.
All that kind.
Yeah.
I don't remember that anymore and that's quite nice.
I like those little add-ons for Doctor Who.
Please, Cavalli's Doctor got prequels, didn't he?
There were a couple of prequels to Which is Familiar, if I remember correctly.
Yeah, that was around the time of season nine.
There was the one with the Sisterhood of Karn and I lost my proverbial as a Doctor fan seeing
Ohila come back.
There was the other one where it was like the Doctor's Day in medieval England and he
was teaching the guy how to play guitar, that sort of thing.
And it turned out the guy was a Dalek agent.
Yeah, that was right, I forgot about that.
Was that in the episodes?
That was in the episode itself, but it was the same guy.
Yeah, I miss those little fun add-ons.
Do you remember the Tardysodes from series two?
Yes.
In the era of YouTube and social media, why is that not a thing?
We can wake out.
I may be completely misremembering this, but I think Tardysodes were essentially a...
Well, we've started to be able to watch short videos on our phones now, so here's a short
video each week that you can now watch on your mobile phone.
You had to text a special number, didn't you?
Yeah, something like that.
They sent the file back and I tried and couldn't get it to work and I think I might have cost
my mum and dad a fortune on the phone bill.
I just used to watch them on the website, but it was a bit of an event.
I can't remember when they were released now.
Was it like the Thursday or something like that?
I think they had a very specific release time.
And I'd remember going...
I don't know when I've been in, what about 12, 13, 13?
13 at the time.
I remember going on the website specifically to go and find this week's Tardysode before
the new one started.
And some of them were quite interesting.
This is something that every story should have, like a little prequel, sequel, something
that happens during...
And I know there are anthologies about this and I know that big finishers created entire
ranges out of this sort of idea, but they were good.
They were really sort of just interesting little teasers, which...
Yeah, you're right.
We don't get any of that anymore at all.
I'm pretty sure this got mentioned either in this month's Doctor Who magazine or last
month's where Russell T Davies was talking about...
Do you remember the old trailers they used to do, like the Ninth Doctor, do you want
to come with me?
That they're not footage edited together.
They're specially shot trailers.
Like the Doctor and Martha.
Do you remember the trailer where it was like it was half his face and half hers?
And she was saying like, oh, I'm a doctor and he's, oh, I'm the doctor, that sort of
thing.
And Donna's sitting around the campfire like, don't do those anymore.
And Russell has said, I think Russell said in Doctor Who magazine, he would look into
bringing them back, which would be nice because I always thought those were great.
I still go back and watch the trip of a lifetime trailer a lot.
Oh, that trailer was fantastic.
It couldn't have been more perfect.
You imagine.
Absolutely got it right.
Can you imagine, right, not knowing Doctor Who was coming back?
Because I feel like that might have been possible back in 2003, 2004 to miss, you know, if you
weren't, if you're maybe a hermit or something, you wouldn't know Doctor Who was coming back.
The internet wasn't, social media wasn't a big thing.
I know it was in the papers and on the telly and Doctor Who magazine was falling through
people's doors.
You know, when that was how people found out that Doctor Who was coming back, Christopher
Eccleston is the new doctor.
But I like to imagine that someone sat down on Christmas Day 2004, whenever it was, that
trailer went out, not knowing Doctor Who was coming back.
And it starts off Christopher Eccleston, do you want to come with me?
And the TARDIS sound starts playing.
I think you would lose your mind.
Yeah, just sort of.
Yeah, imagine that had been your first sort of hint that I mean, Doctor Who was always
coming back.
And then the scene starts playing and it cuts around the new TARDIS console and oh my god,
it's Doctor Who.
Doctor Who was always coming back.
I remembered it used to pop up in the news, you know, whether it was just a newspaper
floating something out or something, I don't know.
But every few weeks there was a new oh, this person's going to be the doctor when it comes
back.
I'm fairly sure I remember, I mean, we must be talking late 90s, maybe early noughties.
I remember Ken Dodd actually being interviewed on BBC News about being linked with the role.
I swear I am not making this up.
I need to float this on Gallifrey base or something like someone please confirm for
me that this is a real thing.
I am sure I remember Ken Dodd with his feather duster making a point about how he would incorporate
the feather duster as part of his doctor's character.
When Doctor Who came back and he was the doctor and I'm sure it was BBC News.
Oh man.
So I'd actually heard about Doctor Who's coming back and it's Christopher Ecclestone
and it's Billy Piper and I was like, oh yeah, here we go again.
It's Ken Dodd and his feather duster again.
And then I saw the Do You Want To Come With Me trailer and that was kind of the moment
where I went, oh my God, it's real.
It's happening.
Because up until that point, every actor on the planet was associated with the role.
It just seemed like a, I think collectively as a nation, we just accepted that Doctor
Who was coming back at some point and literally anybody could play the doctor.
And I think literally everybody was considered to play the doctor by the newspapers if nowhere
else.
I always love seeing the list of names that were thrown about whenever they were doing
the TV movie.
Oh yeah.
Like Ecclestone and Capaldi were on that list.
Hugh Grant and Richard E. Grant were on that list.
I think casting the doctor is really difficult.
I think you see a name like Hugh Grant and you can see what his doctor would be like
and it's not right.
I think even Richard E. Grant, I don't know, I think he could probably do it better or
he could have done it better then.
I don't know if he could do it now, if that makes sense.
I wouldn't mind seeing him.
I don't know.
I've come around, I was a bit scaling about this when Rogue went out and put his face
in the lineup.
I actually think it would be quite cool to see him come in and play the doctor on screen
now.
I'd certainly take a big finish.
I think I want to see it on screen because there's so much, yes, he has a fantastic voice,
but I think you want to see his profile as the doctor on screen.
I think that would be the ideal.
I would be up for seeing a Richard E. Grant doctor in a special guest role.
I don't want a series, but I think it would be quite cool to do like that guy from the
animation is here on screen.
Big finish must have talked about it at some point.
They must have gone, well, we've got Derek Jacoby as the master anyway.
Is there any way we can do a retcon and just sort of do a Schalke continuation series?
I'd be fine with that.
I'd be all over that.
That would be a lot of fun.
I almost think you're better casting an unknown as the doctor or someone who's on the up
and coming list rather than a big established name because you see how well it's worked
for the likes of Superman over the years.
I'm again, maybe maybe I'm wrong.
I have never heard of David Corrin's wet before he was cast as Superman.
I don't think anyone had heard of Christopher Reeve before he was cast as Superman.
I think casting an unknown in this sort of situation does help with defining them as
the doctor rather than, oh, that's Hugh Grant and he's playing at being the doctor, that
sort of thing.
Yeah, it's a bit strange.
I don't know.
I like seeing big names thrown about as potential doctor who's.
And the other thing is a big name probably wouldn't want to stick around and do three
series over four years or whatever the average is now.
I think they got David Tennant at just the right time, didn't they?
Oh yes.
In terms of David Tennant's career, they got David Tennant at exactly the right moment
like he'd done.
He'd done some bits and bobs.
He had done Casanova and I'm pretty sure he'd done Blackpool as well.
Done Casanova.
I think he'd done Blackpool.
Yeah.
Am I right in thinking Harry Potter was before Doctor Who?
It was the year before it was 2004, 2006.
He had just filmed it.
I think it was he had just filmed it before he went to do Doctor Who.
Yeah, that sounds about right.
So he was definitely, I mean it wasn't a massive role, but he was definitely on the up.
He was becoming established as one of those go to British actors.
Yes.
And then I mean I think his career would have exploded without Doctor Who.
I don't think David Tennant actually owes all that much to Doctor Who.
I think it's helped, but I think we'd probably be discussing David Tennant in a similar context
to how we do anyway if he hadn't have done Doctor Who.
But I think the fact that he did Doctor Who as he was becoming incredibly popular and
incredibly well known and well respected actor.
I think it sort of mutually benefited him and the series.
Have you seen, this is a slight change of topic, have you seen his podcast is coming
back?
David Tennant does a podcast with.
He has got Russell T Davies is coming to do an episode.
Ben Schwartz from what's that Apple TV one everyone's talking about?
Severance.
He's coming on to it.
There's a few others that haven't released a full list of all the guests just yet, but
I'm very, very excited because that's a fantastic podcast.
Tennant is an unbelievably good interviewer.
I'm really looking forward to hearing this new run.
He seems to be one of those people that's just frustratingly good at anything he does.
I assume you've seen it because everyone on the Internet has seen it.
Have you seen his BAFTA's intro?
Yes, doing 500 miles.
Joy from start to finish.
The only person that looks like they're not enjoying themselves is his wife.
I think that might be put on.
Oh, definitely.
That was the joke.
The wee bits at the start where he prays to the gods of BAFTA and Dame Helen, Your Majesty,
and Captain Cox, sir.
It's just those wee bits.
I really thought they were really funny.
Yeah, national treasure.
David Tennant.
Absolutely.
Without a doubt.
Well, that was the Doctor Who bit.
I wasn't expecting the Doctor Who bit to be that long, to be honest.
I thought we were going to do 10 minutes about Doctor Who and then discuss other stuff.
As it is, we don't have an enormous amount of time left.
So talk to us about some of the TV you've been watching recently, Connor.
I've actually been watching more TV.
So I've recently, for fairly recently, moved into my own house for the first time.
And I'm living on my own for the first time.
And that's very relaxing.
But one of the biggest things that has changed is I'm actually watching TV again because
I didn't really when I was living with my family because someone else was always watching
it and you couldn't really get to sit for a couple of nights in a row and watch what
you wanted to.
So I can now and it's wonderful.
I have watched, so since I moved in, I've watched the full original run of House of
Cards starring Ian Richardson.
It's fantastic, isn't it?
Absolutely brilliant.
Absolutely one of the best British dramas ever made.
You might very well think that I couldn't possibly comment.
Many, many Doctor Who links as well.
I know.
Yes, yes.
It's stacked with Doctor Who cast.
It's directed by somebody that was in Doctor Who.
And of course, Ian Richardson's son is Raxxytel.
Yeah, yeah.
So I watched it and ouch.
Did you catch Raxxytel's cameo in it?
No.
When was that?
It's in, I think it's in the very, very final episode.
And it's been years since I watched it, but there's sort of a cutaway.
Yes, I did.
He's the soldier.
He's a soldier.
Yeah.
I didn't realise.
Of course.
Yes, I didn't realise that was him.
Of course it is.
Yes, yes, yes.
Oh, that's very good.
That was a young Miles.
Oh, that's very good.
I didn't twig.
But of course it was.
Yeah, I was going to say I'd seen them all before.
So I sort of thought it was a case of diminishing returns where season one's absolute perfection
and then it sort of drops in quality as it goes along.
Absolutely on the case.
Season two and three are just as good as the first one.
So season three was the biggest sort of revelation for me this time round.
Isla Blair's in that and she's fantastic too.
She is really, really good at playing off our cart against Tom Makepeace and she's sort
of going between the two and it doesn't work out for her in the end.
It doesn't really work out for anyone in the end, which is sort of the way House of Cards
always goes, I think.
But what a good series.
So I've watched that.
I've watched SSGB.
I can't remember how I've talked about SSGB on here before, but it's one of my favourite
novels and I really love the TV season as well.
The whole idea of what it is, it's Britain in an alternative universe where the Nazis
won the war and it's set about six months after the Nazis invade Britain and take over
London and Britain just capitulates or the southern part of England capitulates and then
I think they make a mention that there's a front line somewhere around the Midlands and
the north and Scotland or, you know, there's a resistance up there.
But London is under Nazi rule and it sort of goes into, I always think, so there's this
sort of thriller plot going on about the atomic research programme.
I don't think that's the point of the story, either as a novel or in the TV series.
I think it's more about day to day life under a Nazi occupation and it sort of goes into
how the Nazis appropriate a lot of what makes a lot of what's quite iconic about Britain.
So the head of the SS takes over Scotland Yard as his own private office and he dresses
himself in British tweed like it's a costume and has a magazine come over from Germany
and photograph him walking in the footsteps of Sherlock Holmes in Scotland Yard, this
sort of thing.
They make a point, it's more, I think this is more so in the TV series, but there's Nazis
riding the King's horses for fun because they're the King's horses and they can do that and
there's a novelty to them.
Oh, look at us, we're riding the King's horses.
The very opening shot of the TV series is a Spitfire flying over the green fields of
England and that's quite a rose tinted image of freedom and triumph for Britain.
But it flies over London and London looks not right.
You can see red banners in places, you can see bombed out buildings.
It lands on this road and you initially don't know what road this is, but it lands in a
road in central London.
A Luftwaffe pilot gets out and he has basically taken this Spitfire and it's described as
one of the last remaining Spitfires in, I think this is set in 1941.
He's taken it for a joyride and the camera sort of slowly pans round and in the background
then is the bombed out Buckingham Palace and this joyride has ended with the Luftwaffe
pilot or captain or whatever he is landing the Spitfire on the mall.
It does so well at putting over high and occupying force, sort of belittles in this case the
British population.
I don't get, I will say about the Germans taking over this iconic, sort of the British
iconography Sherlock Holmes and Scotland Yard and the King's Horses and all that stuff,
the Spitfires.
The British public don't get any of that.
The whole British identity is erased, they go through the underground and the underground
logo has been changed and taken away.
The text has been changed.
I think the underground and London has quite a, you know what the text on those walls meant
to look like and it doesn't look like that.
I think that's in the behind the scenes photos, they said they deliberately changed that so
it looked wrong on screen and it's a really good effect.
The take away the red phone boxes, so it's like everything that you picture when you
think about Britain, all the big iconic like red telephone boxes, red London buses, Spitfires,
that's for the Germans because they won the war and that's been taken away and you have
the British public then are absorbed into the Reich.
It's a really good story, it's done really well for TV and it's absolutely terrifying.
I hope I don't sound like I'm glorifying the idea of an invasion here but it's just
mind blowing how well this alternative reality is realised.
It's a fantastic story.
I love it.
I love it so much.
It's, I mean it's definitely one you've recommended to me before and I've not got
to yet and really, really should have done.
Both the book and the series, I think I've got the book lined up on Audible actually.
It's worthwhile to read the book before you see the series.
I actually think the series tightens up a lot of what's wrong with the book.
The book gets a wee bit loose in places where the plot meanders and wanders, all gets tightened
up in the series.
I think the TV version is better or it's tighter than the book but it pays to have read the
book first and then see the series.
All that.
That is what I shall do.
I'll report back in a future coffee bar meeting and let you know how I got on.
But yeah, TV's quite good at the minute.
I'm enjoying TV.
We've already mentioned Severance and there's a new series of that ongoing at the moment.
I'm not going to talk about it in a lot of depth because I've only watched a couple of
episodes of the new series and there's been a couple more released that I've not seen
yet and this won't be online for a few weeks yet.
So I'm trying not to discuss anything that's ongoing but I'm thoroughly enjoying Severance.
It's one of those series you've really got to concentrate on.
It's very enjoyable.
There's a lot to unpack there.
I also caught up, had a little bit of an Apple TV run really, caught up with Slow Horses which
is one of the best series going at all at the moment.
It's just great that Gary Oldman's doing TV.
And Jackson Lam is such a fantastic character and that's another series of books that I
keep meaning to get to and sort of have the first one queued on Audible and haven't quite
made it there yet.
But I have every intention of sort of catching up with the series in the books and trying
to get ahead.
But they're doing those series quickly.
Apparently they've already started work on series six and we're not going to see series
five until much, much later this year.
So they really are kind of working two series ahead.
I think they're going to run out of books soon.
I think there's eight books off the top of my head.
I think that's about right, yeah.
So that's really, really worth watching but sort of every series I sort of think they're
not going to be able to keep this quality going.
There's no way they're going to be able to keep this level of quality going and then
they do.
I think it helps that the series are actually quite short.
Like it's six 45 minute episodes.
It's very tight, very sort of well put together.
There's no time for messing about or anything like that.
So I think that works particularly well.
Like it doesn't meander.
It's not some long drawn out adaptation.
It's not functional.
Characters do have relationships.
Characters explore relationships and an awful lot happens but it's not gratuitous.
It doesn't wander off with anything but it still remains very watchful, very believable
and very, very gripping.
So I've had an awful lot of fun with that.
Another Apple series that I'm on at the moment and it's another one that's not quite finished
yet so again not going into too much detail but it's called Prime Target and it's about
a maths genius who sort of gets wound up in a bit of a conspiracy.
It's or the first episode at least has got David Morrissey in it, the next Doctor himself.
Yes, it's a very, very good series so far.
I think it's going to stick the landing.
I hope it does.
By the time this goes out I think it will have finished but it's definitely worth jumping
on if you've got access to Apple TV which there's a lot of very, very good stuff coming
out of at the moment but perhaps a little under the radar.
Yeah, I get that impression a lot with Apple TV.
I don't have it myself but you see Severance talked about and I don't really want to sign
up for another streaming service just for it.
So there's not a lot on Apple.
What I do is figure out what it is you want to watch and get the subscription for as long
as you need it.
I don't keep my Apple subscription.
I'll kind of let it build up and then maybe subscribe for two or three months and get
everything I want to watch watched because there's just not enough on there and there's
not enough new content that justifies having a sort of rolling 12 month subscription but
by the time you get to January, February there's probably three or four new series worth watching
on there.
Yes, yes.
I was on the verge of cancelling my Netflix account the other day because I don't use
it.
I actually don't watch a huge amount on streaming services.
I buy DVDs and then I'll watch those.
But I was on the verge of cancelling my Netflix account when the news broke that there's going
to be a Dungeons and Dragons live action series on it.
Yes.
And I was just like, OK, we'll keep that going then.
I hope that gets me it.
I will eat my hat if it does and I'll eat another hat if it gets more than one series.
But I'm very excited for that when it eventually hopefully arrives on our screens.
Yeah, it's difficult to sort of decide which streaming services to keep and which to ditch
because it's getting to a point now where it's just not feasible.
Well, that was the point of Netflix back at the start of all this was that it was the
one stop shop.
It had the BBC.
It was the only one.
It was, as I say, the one stop shop.
Everything was under one roof and as time has gone on, that's not the case anymore.
And these things all cost what, ten quid a month, more than ten quid a month in some
cases now.
It's not affordable to keep up with everything.
So I think it's fair enough to do some surfing around, do six months with Netflix or maybe
not as long, do two months with Netflix, do two months with Disney, that sort of thing
and just catch up on it all throughout the year.
It's not in any way, shape or form sustainable to stick with all of them all at once.
No, I think you're absolutely right.
The one that I did, I mean, it's been a while since I gave up on it now, but it was Brit
Box and I realised that all I was watching on Brit Box was Classy Doctor Who and Blake
7.
And I kind of had the epiphany of hang on a minute, I've got all of these on DVD or
Blu-ray.
Why am I paying?
It wasn't an awful lot, was it?
Why am I paying a five or a month for the privilege of not walking upstairs to get the
disc?
Yeah.
It's just not worth it.
I didn't.
So I've been building up as the collection box sets have come out.
But whenever Brit Box launched, I didn't have a lot of Classic Doctor Who, so it was perfect
for me.
I think it launched on Boxing Day in the UK, I can't remember what year, but I watched
in one go the horror of Fang Rock and I loved it.
It was a very lazy Boxing Day and I watched the horror of Fang Rock and it was a wee bit
bad.
What made you go for that?
I don't know.
I think I quite like that gothic feel that Fang Rock has and the image of the Fendal
has.
I always say that they are more Hinchliffe than Hinchliffe himself.
So I'd heard it was good and I really loved it.
It was a great Boxing Day story.
Just a really good little slice of Doctor Who.
But I got introduced to so much through Brit Box.
I started watching Big Seven.
I must admit I didn't get terribly far into it.
But it was that.
It was Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister.
I did a full run of that.
I did House of Cards and I did a couple of other things as well.
Brit Box was great and it's gone now I believe.
I think it's been folded into ITVX.
Yes, I think so.
Which is a shame.
I definitely got my use out of it, but I ended up falling into the habit of just watching
Doctor Who and Blake Seven on there.
I've got it all.
I've got it all on disc.
Why am I doing this?
I do always find it interesting, just going back to you mentioning Horror of Fang Rock
there.
I always find it interesting chatting to people whenever they get sudden access to every Doctor
Who story there is.
It was the same when it went on to iPlayer around the time of the 60th anniversary.
It was really interesting to see what people went for straight away.
Having grown up on videos and UK Gold and having Classic Doctor Who very slowly drip
fed into my life with not an awful lot of say over what I watch next.
It tended to be a case of, oh, I've got access to, I don't know, the Sea Devils now.
That's what I'm going to watch today then.
It's always very interesting to see what people go for when they suddenly get 26 years worth
of Classic Doctor Who dumped in front of them.
I remember seeing online, somebody went straight for the gunfighters.
As soon as it went online, went for the gunfighters and they were like, I reckon I'm the first
person in the world to watch the gunfighters on BBC iPlayer because no one else is going
to dive in and go straight to the gunfighters.
That's a great idea.
I love it.
Just shortly after I got Brit Box, I did watch the gunfighters.
It was one I went for pretty early on and I actually really liked it.
It's obviously not perfect, but it's better I think than its reputation suggests.
I think it's one of those things where I assume it was missing for a while, where someone
who didn't really like Westerns said it was rubbish and that became received fan wisdom.
Whereas when you watch it, it's actually a decent enough little story.
Obviously you can tell William Hartnell is very not well by that stage because he's not
doing a huge amount in it, but it's Doctor Who doing a Western.
What's not to like?
I could be wrong.
I don't think it ever has been missing or if it has, it's not been at a time when anybody
would notice if it was missing or not because videos weren't a thing.
I think it was just the case of everyone that watched it first time round went, oh, that's
rubbish.
I think it was one of the least watched Hartnells.
It might even be the least watched Hartnell in terms of audience figures.
So I think it's just one of those things where everybody went, oh, well, you know, we've
got the low audience figures and those that watched it said it's not very good.
Therefore, it must be the worst Doctor Who story ever.
And that just sort of sat there for so long.
I bet nobody at all saw it between sort of the late 60s and what, the 80s, 90s?
I don't know when it will have, when it have sort of received an airing after that.
Yes.
I suppose it'll have got floated around Australian markets and that kind of thing.
But yeah, realistically, there's probably a good 15 years.
And in those 15 years, fandom became a thing.
You know, Doctor Who magazine became a thing and D-Waz became a thing and all that sort
of stuff.
So I think it just sort of became received wisdom that it was a bit rubbish.
But I remember watching it for the first time and thinking, this is great.
This is, this is up there with the better Hartnells actually.
Give me Gunfighters over any other story with Steven and Dodo as the companion pairing.
Give me that over the sensor ice.
Give me that over keys and marina.
There's all sorts that obviously it's got that really iconic song as well.
Yeah.
Which I can see putting people off as much as, yeah, but it, it does something different
and Doctor Who's allowed to do something different.
Doctor Who works when it does something different.
It doesn't work when it does something different.
Sometimes it does something different and it's Delta and the Bannermen.
I like Delta and the Bannermen on a basic level of it's doing something different and
it's exactly the production that it intends to be.
It's not a failed production.
It's a complete success.
Whether the outcome of that is to everyone's taste or not is a completely different thing.
But in the interests of not giving you the opportunity to argue back with that, I'm going
to say that we've run out of time and we'll have to end the episode there.
Okay.
Fair enough.
So, yes, that was another visit to the coffee bar.
So these episodes are completely unplanned.
We walked into this and the only prompt we kind of had was, oh, let's talk about not
Doctor Who TV a little bit.
Everything else has been just us having a chat.
So hopefully, listeners, you've enjoyed it.
The feedback on previous coffee bar episodes has been pretty positive.
We've taken far longer to bring it back than we actually wanted to.
We've just struggled to get one of these in or not had another recording that's taken
priority or anything.
So we do love doing these coffee bar episodes.
So thank you for listening and bearing with us, I guess.
As I said, they're always a lot of fun just to come on and talk complete nonsense for
an hour with no structure, just talking about the things we like or in this case, Delta
on the bottom end, which we don't like.
You don't like.
I think that as I said, this is the most Doctor Who-y coffee bar that we've done.
I think so, yeah.
We don't usually talk too much about Doctor Who in these, but we've done a lot about tonight.
We've done a lot of Star Wars, haven't we?
We did a bit of a Twin Peaks one.
And I'm watching Twin Peaks again now because David Lynch has very sadly passed away, which
has prompted me to start again with Twin Peaks.
And it's a wonderful series.
But that's for another coffee bar.
Right.
Well, we will leave it there.
So thank you very, very much for joining me, Connor.
We'll coffee bar again sometime.
Thank you very much.
However, I suspect that we'll probably do a second series of Christopher Eccleston episode
before we get to that, because we need to talk about the fact that Nine and Rose are
doing a series.
I forgot.
How have we got through a whole episode?
We'll do that in the main Doctor episode.
Which I think we've probably just rushed up the priority list.
Yeah.
It's just like, oh my God.
Oh my God.
In the meantime, I will say goodbye and thank you to Connor.
Thank you very much.
And we'll be back for more discussing how great Delta and the Bannermen is soon.
Goodbye now.
You're playing with your audio design toys again with the coffee shop noises.
Oh yeah.
It'd be rude not to.
I might do a bit of foley.
I might actually record my own coffee machine.
Like this isn't just something I've got online and edited together.
This is actual legitimate.
This is the Spodcast coffee machine.
I'm the cuckoo in the nest again because I don't drink coffee and I'm sitting here in
the coffee shop with a cup of tea.
I bet you're one of those people that puts milk in ill grey, aren't you?
I don't even know what sort of tea it is.
There's a bag and it makes me tea and I put milk in it.
I don't know what type of tea it is.
Philistinism.
Someone actually did buy me and I haven't used it yet to machine.
I'm going to do that tonight.
Actually, someone did buy me a little tea strainer and a little selection of teas that
you have to run through the tea strainer.
And there's Earl Grey and English breakfast and another kind.
I think the most wonderful thing about this episode is that we've already recorded the
post credit sequence at the start.
Thanks for watching.