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You're listening to a podcast of Spurious Morality. Hooray! Marvelous!

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You're listening to a podcast of Spurious Morality. Hooray! Marvelous!

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Hello and welcome to a podcast of Spurious Morality. This week we are going to start

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looking back at the current era of Doctor Who. So that's going from the Star Beast onwards when

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Russell T Davies came back to the show and we're going to split this up over three episodes,

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starting off this week with a look at the 60th anniversary episodes. We have looked at these

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before but we are changing up the people we've got on the podcast and also time has passed

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so some of our thoughts about these episodes might have changed over the years as well.

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So today you have Mark. Hello. And you have myself. And like I said we're going to start

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off by talking about the 360th anniversary episodes featuring David Tennant and Catherine

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Tate returning to Doctor Who. But before that we'll start off by going back to before they

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were broadcast and I was struggling to remember some of this myself but like what was it like

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in that period of anticipation before they actually were broadcast? Like Mark do you remember

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anything about the announcement and the

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2022 would have been? So the timing felt very on point but it was also just incredibly exciting

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because this news just came out of the blue. I don't think anybody was expecting it. It was

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just like one minute was not known about the next it was on the BBC website and people were kind of

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going mad for it. Like I think it's fair to say that the despite anticipation around Jodie Whittaker's

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finale and the return of you know 80s companions which you and I are very excited about and all of

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that stuff I think the overall feeling of the Chimneyra was something of Doctor Who hitting

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the doldrums for a little while and not quite you know kind of losing its mojo a bit and just this

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idea of Russell T. Davis suddenly being back it was like you know the second coming no pun intended

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and there he was and he was going to inject this thing with a whole new lease of life and you could

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imagine that he's not the sort of guy that would just come back and regurgitate his old stuff. He

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would come back having ingested the last lot of years of television and even bring his own

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evolution in writing from things like years and years back to which I think you do see

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splashes of it in RTD too. So yeah I remember much excitement from well in advance and just thinking

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gosh what is this going to be like and then there was rumors of Disney money coming in. I can't

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remember at what point that was confirmed but it was this big build of anticipation and he was saying

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quite early on I think he was talking about scripts he'd already written for not the specials but

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further down the line and he was saying we've never written stuff like this before or I've

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never written stuff like this before the show's never done stuff like this before we're going into

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whole new areas. Now that led my brain down certain paths that ultimately weren't fulfilled but

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that's not to say that what we didn't get didn't impress me because it did. It was just different

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to what it led me to believe in terms of how radically different it would be but yeah that's

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kind of my little stream of consciousness on that. Yeah I remember yeah I was trying to think back

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and think about what the sequence was of like when we found out. So I think there was rumors

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about this floating about well before the official announcement and then the stuff about Disney

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it sort of came out slowly as well and there was a bit of confusion at first of

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oh are they just a distributor or are they actually involved in funding and co-production and

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and if that's the case how much creative control do they have. I feel like some of that came out

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over time. You're right there was a lot of speculation over many of the podcasts ours and

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others about that so yeah it was at forums and things so there was a lot of unknowns but yeah

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it was certainly it certainly provided a lot of talking point while we waited for it to

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we waited with you know with more impatience than anything for the thing to come along you know

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because it always takes time to but then it seemed to be burning no time at all before we were seeing

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would that have been when we're seeing footage of Bernard Cribbins and Catherine Tate and David Tennant

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or those leaked sets those leaked set stuff quite early on and then yeah so so I don't know it seemed

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to be this simultaneously torturously long wait but also stuff seemed to be also happening very

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fast as well and it was just a blur of you know that that was the thing I think it was this feeling

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of the typical era of Fairdier unfairly garnered itself a reputation as something that would just

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you know it became almost a running joke that you know the most publicity you would get before a

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season would be them taking the website down or or putting you know one or two little still images

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from Legend of the Sea levels out or something and then all of a sudden there was this sort of

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when we're back to the era of Russell T. Davis dropping heavy hints early about forthcoming

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things and the whole there was felt like a big sea change you know possibly more than it actually

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was but he's a very good yeah I felt that and yeah so and and even even the change from Russell T.

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Davis to Moffat first time around Moffat you'd see him in press stuff a lot but like Russell T.

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Davis was kind of definitely like the most effusive and and like active I think with engaging with the

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press yeah but yeah like so that just thinking about how I reacted to it I was excited and I

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remember this sort of expectation or assumption I had was okay cool this is going to be a sort of

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nostalgic look back with an old doctor coming back and there's a sort of running joke about how like

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regardless who's the current doctor David Tennant is often you know the one that you see on merchandise

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and games and things and but he's he's he's very welcome because he's he's a he's a very good doctor

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so you know I always look towards him when he's on big finish stuff but I was sort of happy with

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that of like okay we're going to do like a finite nostalgic look back round off Donna's story which

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was you know has some potential there and then my I thought okay then they're going to just go in

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like a very sort of radically different direction after that because again like you said with you

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know Russell T. Davis has done a load of other stuff years and years and loads of other dramas

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and he himself was talking about how he's not going to come back and do the same thing

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so maybe we'll get into that more in next week's episode and see like how much of that panned out

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with the 2024 season but that was my thought and yeah so I was going into it like I think like a

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lot of fans very sort of energized and enthusiastic and I think overall it met my expectations

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but before we jump into looking at the specific episodes the three episodes we're looking at here

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are the Star Beast, Wild Blue Yonder and The Giggle all broadcast during the 60th anniversary

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year 2023 but the Star Beast was interesting in that it was a adaptation of a very old comic strip

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which had also been adapted into a big finish story so first question like what were your thoughts

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about the fact that they were adapting this quite well known well regarded comic story?

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That is one of my least favorite bits of news to hear is when they say we're going to cannibalize

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this existing thing that is already well loved and we're going to sort of arguably overwrite

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the long-standing thing with a thing that sort of now belongs to the prime canon or whatever you

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know. Now I'm somebody who tries to be as generous in what I include within my head canon as possible

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so I will do mental somersaults to make sure that for instance human nature really does happen twice

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to the doctor and stuff like that and so when I saw that I thought oh no this is the one that's

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going to annoy me most just the fact that it is taking something and unless the doctor shows

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recognition of the meep as we now call it beep the meep as we were calling it back then, them

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sorry to use the proper pronoun, I don't know I just thought chances are it's going to be like

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as though the doctor's meeting the meep for the first time I'm going to have to you know fall back

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on that final contingency of oh the time war did this or whatever you know so that kind of thing

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bugged me a wee bit but I realized that it's Russell T. Davis doing that thing he has form

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in this regard so it's not like he hasn't basically done a sort of a redo of a spearhead

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you know in rows just to have something reliably iconic against which to play out the new foreground

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elements and I know he also did for instance yeah I mean I referenced human nature there before and

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we've had a Rob Sherman story which in my opinion was so radically altered it basically has two

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stories anyway you know there's no problem accommodating those in one. That's Jubilee

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Jubilee being I mean yeah I mean Terry Notion told the same Dalek story several times in

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in the classic series if you think that Jubilee and Dalek are the same story and the other little

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bit of you know the other little thing that sneaks in a wee bit more under the radar is

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and it slightly treads on the toes of of a bit of expanded universe stuff and it's a story that I

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particularly love it's one of my all-time favorite big finishes yeah the other one that kind of snuck

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in as part of a little bit of expanded universe stuff was Isaac Newton coming into the the pre-title

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sequence of Wild Blue Yonder and you know that that one's easier to reconcile for me I can sort

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of imagine okay he doesn't look like David Warner but maybe he put 30 years on him and

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uh his voice ages up and he becomes more curmudgeonly and you know there you go there's

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your there's your circular time uh David Warner and he still he it's you can just about squint

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to make that thing about the apples hitting him full on the face um work you know that Peter

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Davidson references references in that story he says oh well I'm a very fast bowler but you can

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sort of say okay well that's him uh guessing or intuiting that he was the guy responsible and

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uh he doesn't know yet what the what what form that fast bowling took but maybe it was via TARDIS

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after all you know um so uh anyway sorry that's my other little expanded universe niggle that came

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in I was like ah don't don't don't run circular time just carefully there but they just about got

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away with not uh absolutely overriding it or anything so um yeah but the Star Beast was the

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main but you were asking sort of in terms of the main I guess the main sort of story beats and stuff

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there I think it um it pulled in a fair bit of the iconic stuff from the comic the look of the

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meep was very much just ripped from the pages of Doctor Who magazine and that ship looks pretty

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much as you see it in in the comic strip too a lot of a lot of other stuff I mean there's nods to

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count like fudge who was a main player in the comic strip is just a sidelined observer and um

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um in the tv one and stuff like that so it's I guess the time war got involved again yet again

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and rewrote something there and either that or the doctor's been mind wiped a few times in the

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in the end room whatever it is anyway um this this is is happening in a new form um and actually

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one thing it sort of seeded in my mind was it took me down a for a long time I started going

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down this breadcrumb trail of thinking that the series was going to do something really really

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really out there I'll talk about this more next week because I think more of the the apparent

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clues which weren't really clues in the end uh jumped out at me from from the main series but

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um I I thought they were going down the line of saying Doctor Who will turn out to be a tv

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series and the doctor will find that he's he's in this tv series and that will be the finale of

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of in judy's first season and um when that didn't turn out to be the case I was a bit

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initially disappointed but that's my own fault for building up a whole theory in my head it wasn't

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you know seeing patterns and things that weren't there you know um but uh that that seemed the seed

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of that maybe came from from watching the starbeast and thinking ah is he sort of suggesting that

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you know the doctor who multiverse is pulling in things from all its different media and you know

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um well I don't know I'm not saying it very coherently and I might explain myself better

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next week when when the more pertinent examples come up but uh yeah so yeah and and and as I

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understand it there are 26 episodes of Doctor Who that have been ordered as part of this disney deal

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so where 13 of those have been broadcast so it might be that some of the clues and seeds that

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we've seen so far um have yet to to actually um be developed and uh be revealed to be significant

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but there's stuff again in yeah if we go on to like talking about more about the starbeast there's

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things about the meeps boss I don't that's not been does he have a is his boss in common with

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rogues is that I did wonder that when it was mentioned in rogue it seemed too big a coincidence

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you know that new boss he refers to doesn't he and it's like it feels um almost conspicuously

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throw away if that makes sense yeah um yeah that was yeah so there's definitely I think more more

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foreshadowing to be paid off but I mean starting at the start of the starbeast we have this this

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recap this intro where you have some narration from the doctor and from donna and as I understand

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it that wasn't part of the original script and the original production it was added on afterwards

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and it's not awful but I think it shows that it was sort of bolted on to the start um what did you

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make of that those first couple of shots I noticed that Rachel talla has come out in recent times

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like just in the last month or two and sort of very explicitly said that was not me I

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it's it it was you know it doesn't bug me the way it's some some other people think it's a

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it's a complete travesty and I don't see it that quite quite like that but it does feel yeah very

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grafted on you can tell it's a sort of a a bit of a disney had a word afterwards and said like can you

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can you do this is sort of a bit of a I don't know it's just just a little bit of an additional

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punching up of the bullet points here you know and um I think Russell T. Davis likes to his general

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tendency seems to be towards he does a first episode and there's no cold open or

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pre-title sequence or whatever you want to call it and he just goes straight into the titles

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especially if they're new ones to sort of grandstand those and those titles are beautiful

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by the way well I think they're I think they're the the best ones we've had since the series came

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back and the version of the theme too um but uh yeah in this case it seems like that's what he

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had in mind and Disney possibly had a little word and said could we have just something to

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it's not quite in the realms of the the Paul McGowan voiceover at the start of the tvm but it's

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sort of nudging into that kind of arena isn't it yeah a little bit I was wondering that like you

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know it's there to help new viewers along but how yeah how disorientated might they be if they've

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never seen Doctor Who before I think it's fine I'd like the the bit I find most questionable

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or that I would change is just that choice of having the Doctor just floating in a starfield

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and I would just change that for like have it him standing by the TARDIS console and maybe

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because it was like a a pickup that they were limited with access to sets but um then it would

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just mirror mirror Donna sitting at the table and it would it would be a nice setup for this like

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casual fourth wall breaking that's becoming a bit of a theme of this this era but where you've just

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got him sitting like standing in this void I don't know sort of what to to make of that is that like

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just uh I can't it's not a sort of it's not representing something literal he's not sort

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of casually standing in space is he so like what is it we're seeing I guess it's maybe sort of

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saying here's somebody you know of of the stars I guess even though we're not seeing stars we're

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not seeing stars we're just seeing void and here's somebody very much within earthbid existence and

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the two are going to come together but it doesn't yeah it doesn't quite mesh in the way maybe it

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could the other thing that sort of looks a bit janky I think unavoidably is just the um

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how would you say the resolution of a picture these days on tv is so immaculate that when

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they throw in these things from these quick very quick clips from you know uh donna's

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original flashbacks it kind of looks a bit unavoidably grainy by comparison when you're

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seeing them at such close quarters but it's it's it's so blink and you miss it it probably only

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jumps out to to the fans more than the casual viewers think that stuff um but then coming on

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to the main part of the story book uh so we talked about the aspects around adaptation we talked

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about the intro we talked about like our expectations going in what did you make of it as an episode of

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doctor who I really enjoyed it uh it's not my favorite of the three um might be my second

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favorite um but it's uh it it does a great job of just it comes back with real energy

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there's there's the doctor he's he's kind of um he's he's he's the 14th doctor he's not the 10th

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right you know and they and they kind of show you quite so some little subtle differences there

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early on and how he's conducting himself he's more low-key he's uh he certainly looks older um he can

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be a little bit more reserved a bit um and he has slightly different attitudes and takes and things

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and yet there are familiar uh catchphrases and and modes of behavior there too so it's it's an

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interesting hybrid of a thing and um you know just it just seems to flow beautifully from that from

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that moment where he lands and then suddenly you you know you're into those beautiful night time

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scenes in Camden you've got Donna there you're very quickly introduced to the family um and uh

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when the meep shows up um it's it's just it's just really good fun from there because um

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it's the meep's so well voiced by um Miriam Markleys and um Donna's comedy timing around

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all of that that realization that that it's not a toy at all that is so it's so good i i i love

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the stuff there's my favorite favorite moment that's jumping right to the end really is just

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that bit where the doctor you know the the the realization has been dawning between

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with Donna that the doctor has some significance in her life and they find themselves just in it's

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it's that sort of almost it's almost an echo of um you know uh Bernard Cribbins of the you know

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the Fornock scenario trapped between the glass um there they are on either side of this this

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bifurcated um control room and he has no choice but to get her involved and become the doctor

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Donna again and it's just that moment where he starts to recite those um that little sequence

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of words that are just total non-sequiturs but there's so much poetry and just the way it's

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done and delivered and you know Mexico and Dante grief you know he's he's and he the two of them

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just play that so beautifully and it's it's and then and then to manage to tie that into the

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relatively arbitrary i imagine at the time binary thing and then make it something much more of

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2023 was was genius to do that um i know some people like their roller eyes at that but then

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they will roll their eyes at anything these days that even has the same list hint of of uh

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walker as they would call it about it but um no i just i just love that um and uh yeah the whole

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the whole thing is just just just it rolls along it's got real energy to it Rachel it's an odd

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choice for Rachel Talalay to be the director for that but but maybe in hindsight you'd have almost

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expected her to be picked as the director for Wild Blue Yonder because it's it's much more of a you

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know a high concept sci-fi thing but actually when you think about it she grinds this very

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cartoonish thing in a bit more i don't know she just gives it weight and and um i don't know

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balances the equilibrium of the whole thing really well um and i guess she just she just knows she

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knows Dr Who and she's like she by that point she directed several episodes so maybe it was

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this idea of like a safe pair of hands to yeah relaunch this new era as well but no i agree

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like everything you've said and i think like in particular you said about it being like getting

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going and being it's really tightly structured in the same way that Rose's it's like um i feel

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like nothing's wasted everything's there for a purpose um and uh yeah you know like continuity

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issues aside i think the way it reuses the meep story as this backdrop but then also tells

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like you know continues the story of the Doctor and Donna is all really really good um Rose

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Daughter's um Donna's daughter i think um that's i think she's really good in this episode i'm a

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bit disappointed that when she came back at the end of season one that we didn't see more of her

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i felt she was a bit and we'll get to that when we get to um that episode but i felt like she

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was a bit lost when she came back and i was really looking forward to seeing more of her

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at that point uh yeah Miriam Margulies like you said was excellent and i thought she she was like

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a really good choice to do both sides of the meep really well like do that cute side and then do the

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that transition to um like you know meeps true nature and to do that without any kind of

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elaborate vocal effects just do it mainly in the performance um and Sylvia Sylvia was another

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highlight for me that like recognisably the same character but because uh um she she's obviously

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mellowed a bit in terms of how she is with Donna because she was a little bit harsh and abrasive

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with her in uh in series four um and then also with like being very sensitive about how she talks

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to or talks about Rose um it shows that you just it just feels like realistic in that you could see

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how Sylvia from series four got to this point how she's developed and and grown a bit as a as a

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person um oh yeah completely yeah that's um that's a really good point and and uh i think Sean's you

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know a really good character as well he's he's so um he's so just accepting of everything he's he's

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kind of just the guy you'd need in that situation uh and he provides a fair bit of gentle comedy in

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it too i just love that bit where he arrives home and everybody's there's just chaos going on in the

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kitchen and um that tuna grass life tuna grass moment yeah exactly um just that the comedy beats

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in that there's everybody just his own point with that with that and it was incredible later to

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realise that house was um the outside of that house was like a set inside studio to me like at

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the time i just assumed it was outdoor shots but uh it was really really convincing that you know

243
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some of the stuff they do with the inside studio now and and uh like that's there's a huge difference

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from RTD1 is like they were so much about you know their money saving technique in those days

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was to go out on location and and you know use a lot of steam and pipes in the factory to replicate

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a spaceship and now they're building houses inside inside warehouses to say look there's

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there's an everyday house that we could have gone and filmed outdoors but we've got more

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control of it here so yeah interesting i thought the the production looked really good like and

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and like watching the behind the scenes stuff um you can see how much thought and effort they put

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into blending practical effects with cgi and and the big contrast that comes to my mind with things

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like the meep and how they've got you know like a practical version and they've got like a cgi model

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um like the contrast with how the sleet slitheen were in their first story where you had like

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you know a good a good costume and you had a cgi model but just like the way they moved the way

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they looked didn't really gel like um whereas here you don't notice the joins unless you watch the

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behind the scenes stuff um so yeah i thought like just and the same with the the rough warriors like

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the the the set design costumes you could see it had been elevated a little bit from from where

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we were before although having said that they they i've been seeing comments from them recently

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saying like there's never enough money and that in the grand scheme of things even with disney

259
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support doctor who is still relatively um cheaper to make than other shows yeah um okay yeah you

260
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you will almost certainly have listened to the same recent radio free scarrow that was but where

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it would be yeah and all that from gallifrey where steven moffat that bit where he says there

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are no cheap episodes like believe me there are no there's no such thing as a cheap episode um

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and and and also yeah doctor who should be getting more money than any other show but it it actually

264
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has always had less and there's just never enough time there's never enough money and

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time is money and all that sort of thing so i thought it was a really interesting perspective

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he brought he said even you know like boom where you've really just got one set and one

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scenario you have to do many more cuts and shots and all sorts of things and lighting things

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and so the money haven't sent as the other one yeah i think you mentioned yeah so anyway right

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um and by the way i really struggle to rank these three because like one of the things i was

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observing just re-watching them is that they are like a really expertly boiled down version of a

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russell t davis season where you've got your opener you've got your like um weird sci-fi

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episode and then you've got your big splashy finale and they're all i think they're all three of them

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really successful at each of those things that they're trying to do so in that sense i find it

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hard to like rank them in order um yeah i enjoy all of them um and on that on that topic let's go

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on to to wild blue yonder our second episode um and again we have some like interesting continuity

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issues raised here and also a lot of setup so we have this thing about gravity and maverty we have

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susan twists appearing um we have a massive thing around the weakening of the walls of reality with

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the salt and all of that that um seems to have triggered this arc that's running through seasons

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one and two uh and also we have looks back to the past so we have the timeless child coming up as

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well and i think being handled in a really interesting way um bia what were your thoughts on

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on wild blue yonder oh i have so much to say about but well i'll have to rein myself in a bit it is

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my favorite of the three and um by some margin i just absolutely love this thing and it was the

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mysterious one wasn't it you know when they first when they first put the adverts together and

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very little in the trailer you know i was like oh what are these titles going to be and then it was

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the one that had like little redacted bits and stuff and you were like what is that what's going

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and russell did later say he he worried that you know they were overselling the redacted nature of

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it as though some big you know there's going to be some big returning villain there and everybody

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was going to be guessing what that was and then when it turned out to be essentially a two-hander

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or a four-hander depending how you look at it um he was worried that it was going to be an anticlimax

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but i i think that was brilliant to do that you just to keep it really mysterious and so that

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when it was what it was it just hits really hard and you're like whoa what the heck you know what

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is this and the way the realization creeps in slow that that first moment where tenet sort of slides

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down the wall and you just see something something different in the body language it's not quite

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there yet but your your brain's kind of going this is the slowness that that's the big thing

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and like the notes that i made that keeps coming up is like how all of it like the music and the

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character moments and the action it builds and builds and builds and builds slowly until you

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get to that like um that you know the big horror moment of them being chased down the the runway

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but up until that point it's like a very very and even like the sound design and the music

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um because i noticed murray gold uh was doing something different from his normal style and he

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was doing something i felt that was a bit more like what sega nakanola would do that kind of

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atmospheric music using moments of silence to build up the tension um so so yeah i totally

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get what you're saying there about that sort of ramping up of tension and uncomfortableness and

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weirdness in the first half he brings in this lovely sort of electronic palette to things early

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on it's it's subtle but it's there and and then there's this incredible moment where they send

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that kind of lonely probe out you know along the side of the ship and explore on the very the very

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edge of space and there's a exquisitely melancholy piece of music that plays with that it's just so

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it's haunting and it's and the atmosphere and that moment where the doctor just lent right up

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against the glass just just almost daring it to break because he's so mesmerized by just being

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further than he's ever been i love all that stuff it's really sold so well um the only kind of issue

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i it's a tiny little issue on the audio front that i have is the countdown initially is very hard

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to hear until the doctor starts repeating the words i couldn't hear at all what those words were

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you know fenslaw and colos and bret as it turns out three two one but um i guess he repeats them

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enough times in the episode to fix that issue but it is it is hard to pull out of the sound mix

314
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well so sound mix issues would be quite quite a sort of nostalgic

315
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oh that's true

316
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yeah but but i mean there's uh oh yes you mentioned maverick and stuff at the start there i love that

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that just is there now you know that it's the butterfly effect isn't it um which we returned to

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in um judy's uh first season um be careful what you do in the past because you will affect the

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the future but and i know that's a very marmite thing that that maverick thing some people some

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people just seem that it seems to make them grind their teeth and then other people

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kind of enjoy it i'm personally quite happy to just enjoy it and i think that's a very

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interesting thing that i think that's interesting that the first time it's repeated um the doctor

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uses the word gravity and uh donna goes what he goes i mean maverick which suggests that he

324
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being the complex space-time event that he is and can hold both versions of the same

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thing and then the doctor says i think that's a very interesting thing that he does for the

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whole time like if you don't fathom what they have changedh is it seems to imply human activity

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things you know for me sitting down in amusic environment a whole dinner or a day that watch

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you know that's for me to recall that experience in the movie wanting to remember and used kind

329
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So yeah, but that whole slowness conceit is brilliant.

330
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I love when Russell T. Davis does that sort of stuff,

331
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you know, where he comes up with that,

332
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it's like, I love the fact that the countdown

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is thrown in there really early.

334
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It's like stated in a list of five possibilities countdown.

335
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And that's exactly what it was, a slow countdown.

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But because it's given to you,

337
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but then you don't have time to think about it

338
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because so much else is going on the whole way through.

339
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And just incredibly creepy moments that the way,

340
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like those two really shine, Tennant and Tate,

341
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because their counterparts are so creepy and eerie.

342
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And they go, sometimes they're standing there

343
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with a really low energy smirk.

344
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And then other times they're just like ferocious,

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you know, like animalistic in the way they,

346
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they're kind of spitting out questions and love it.

347
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Love it, just absolutely love the whole thing.

348
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Oh, and then the bit at the end with the TARDIS

349
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is used like a hoverboard.

350
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That was just such a cool little innovation for me.

351
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I just think like, yes, this is, even if that's, you know,

352
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okay, maybe Russell isn't gonna come back

353
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and revolutionize every aspect of Doctor Who,

354
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but if he comes up with original image, 60 years in,

355
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we've never seen an image like the doctor

356
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pushing the TARDIS along like a skateboard.

357
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Like that's just brilliant.

358
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And somewhere along the line that's popped into his head

359
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in the intervening years, he's gone, I have to,

360
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I have to get that on screen.

361
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I just love stuff like that.

362
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I really, I know I'm gonna go away after this

363
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and think about 50 other things I should have said

364
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because I love the story so much,

365
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but I'll let you talk for a bit, sorry.

366
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,200
No, no, again, like agree with all of that.

367
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Like the performances, yeah, that range of like doing

368
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the sort of slightly off, slightly creepy,

369
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uncanny valley version and then doing that ferocious

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animalistic one.

371
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And again, on that theme of it building

372
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and it building that sense of unease and wrongness

373
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in the first half, it doesn't take you long to work out

374
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that these are duplicates because, you know,

375
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it's short in a way that you're seeing two sets

376
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of the Doctor and Donna, so it's kind of quite

377
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an obvious clue.

378
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But the way the performances just make you feel

379
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like really unsettled and the fact that the TARDIS

380
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isn't there as well, that adds to it as well,

381
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like that that's just lost at the start

382
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and it makes you think of like classic stories

383
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like is it Mind Robber or Frontier or where the TARDIS

384
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is lost or destroyed or the Impossible Planet,

385
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which I think this has like some things in common

386
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with as well.

387
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:47,280
And like when that sort of like touchstone of safety

388
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is gone, it just sort of says like, you know,

389
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,920
all the rules are up in the air in terms of like,

390
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you know, threats and stakes and things.

391
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,400
And the ending, yeah, like it's got this,

392
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,680
so this, I think this story's got elements

393
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of Impossible Planet and also elements of Midnight,

394
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,760
but it also has a lot of that money on show

395
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,760
in terms of spectacle and when it does explode,

396
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,840
you have these like big, ambitious,

397
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,760
ambitiously staged moments.

398
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,280
And the ending, like there's that decision, I think,

399
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,080
that generated a lot of discussion about the doctor

400
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,880
choosing the wrong donor at the end

401
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,240
and then going back and correcting his mistake.

402
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:39,720
And, but I think that's realistic

403
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:44,720
because if you're dealing with someone who is a duplicate,

404
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,560
then, you know, no matter how well you know that person,

405
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,480
that there is the chance that you would make a mistake.

406
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,560
And it's like, it's quite a classic doctor thing

407
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,880
to be fallible and then to like fix the mistake

408
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:58,800
in the nick of time.

409
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,360
Yeah, and it's also, it is that thing of,

410
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,680
when I was first watching that, I thought,

411
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,320
yes, that obviously is the right donor

412
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,720
because that feels televisually like the right answer

413
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:12,880
to give in that moment.

414
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,000
It's funny because it just is, right?

415
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,720
And that's supposed to be the thing that's human,

416
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:19,680
but what's equally human, as the doctor pointed out

417
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,600
earlier in the story, is contradiction.

418
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,720
And sometimes you could just give the crappier answer,

419
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:26,240
you know, and for her life to depend on that,

420
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:27,920
you know, it was quite something.

421
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,640
You know, it was a real shocker of a decision,

422
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,800
like, you know, a risk, a gamble,

423
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,760
but there are moments, by the way, in this episode,

424
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,720
I don't want to go out of my head and not say these.

425
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,800
There's a, there are two beautiful speeches

426
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,280
and they're kind of given as counterpointing sort of speeches

427
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,400
when each of the doctors, sorry,

428
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,080
when Donna and the doctor are each first encountering,

429
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,880
without realizing they have counterparts,

430
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,560
they're counterparts, and Donna's one is to talk about,

431
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,920
you know, this business of, you know,

432
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,640
they'll come back and they'll visit the alleyway over days,

433
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,440
and, you know, Sean will continue to come for us.

434
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,120
He'll never give up coming back to the alleyway

435
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,680
and her grandfather would come back and all this stuff.

436
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,800
And it's really beautifully done and it's so melancholy,

437
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,800
but the other one, the one that really grabbed me

438
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,720
was the doctor talking about him,

439
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:29,440
how he wonders what happens to the TARDIS

440
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,840
when it does go into its hostile action displacement mode.

441
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,600
He has this whole beautiful romantic scenario in his head

442
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:37,680
about how the TARDIS goes

443
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,080
and perches itself in a cliff top somewhere.

444
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,880
And then over generations, cities come and go around it.

445
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,960
And then finally, all that fades away

446
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,440
and all that's left is just the TARDIS sitting,

447
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,760
you know, centuries in,

448
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,000
and then it comes back to find him again.

449
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:57,000
And when I saw the trailer for the 2024 season,

450
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,880
I saw that shot of the TARDIS on the cliff top

451
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,560
with, you know, covered in moss and lichen

452
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:07,400
and all that stuff.

453
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,880
And I thought, oh, they're actually doing,

454
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,600
that idea was such a, he was seeding that idea

455
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,160
and they're actually gonna do that for real,

456
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,840
which they didn't quite do in the way he projected there,

457
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,000
but it sort of echoed that.

458
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,200
I thought that was really interesting.

459
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,960
But yeah, so I suppose I better wrap up my thoughts on this

460
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,920
or we'd be talking all night.

461
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,040
But you're right, that thing he does with the salt

462
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:36,240
seems to be absolutely crucial

463
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:38,200
because that's the moment, isn't it?

464
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,840
That's the moment where what Russell T. Davis

465
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,840
is going to do this time around with Doctor Who,

466
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,160
the doors are thrown wide open

467
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,320
because it's like, okay, in order to give maximum room

468
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,240
for maneuvering about in the ever evolving zeitgeist here,

469
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:54,360
we can do magic, we can do, you know, godlike powers,

470
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,080
we can do things that Doctor Who could sort of lean into,

471
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,760
but never as fully lean into before.

472
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,600
And now we're not, it's the scale that's different,

473
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,600
you know, and the room to really stretch the elastic on that.

474
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,320
And it gives us a good in-universe explanation

475
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,880
for like stylistic changes, like just like unexplained

476
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,680
fourth wall breaking or just use of music.

477
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,080
And like, you can kind of cover it with this thing of like,

478
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,560
well, the laws of the universe have changed

479
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:23,400
because of this.

480
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,360
But the Doctor Who said, I thought that was diegetic,

481
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,000
you know, it kind of makes a sort of sense.

482
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,200
Yeah, in a way that it might not have done before.

483
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:31,440
Yeah, that kind of thing.

484
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,200
Yeah, we should move on to the giggle,

485
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,120
but just like one more thing I wanted to touch on quickly

486
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,080
was the timeless child, because I thought it was

487
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,560
quite a gracious thing on Russell T. Davis's part,

488
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,160
but also a really interesting thing,

489
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,360
the way that they mentioned that.

490
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:48,720
And I think the way that they build on it

491
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:50,760
in quite an emotionally rich way.

492
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,120
So he's not just doing like a continuity reference to say,

493
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,560
yes, the timeless child happened.

494
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,840
He's using it in this really key emotional moment

495
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,840
of the fake Donna trying to break down the Doctor

496
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,720
by using it as a, like a fundamental, vulnerable point

497
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:12,520
to have a go with.

498
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,240
And that has carried forward into season one.

499
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:19,520
And I think it's really interesting to think about

500
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,440
that theme of, you know, adoption and identity

501
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:24,680
and all of that sort of stuff,

502
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,920
for the timeless child brings up beyond all the sci-fi stuff

503
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,800
about the origins of the timelines.

504
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,840
And that's right.

505
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,240
I'm glad you brought that up because that sort of ties in,

506
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:39,680
again, with that sort of anticipatory period that we had

507
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,600
when people were speculating what Russell T Davis

508
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,560
was going to do.

509
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:44,600
And a lot of people said, look,

510
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,840
see that timeless child stuff?

511
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,440
He'll not address that.

512
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,280
He'll put that to one side and never talk about it again

513
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,960
because it was a failed experiment and this and that.

514
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:56,800
And in the end, he was actually incredibly generous

515
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:57,640
in what he did.

516
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:58,960
He said, no, I'll take the best of that.

517
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,840
I'll take its emotional resonance.

518
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,840
And, you know, as you said,

519
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,000
and really kind of tease it out

520
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,960
and make something even more of it.

521
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:14,960
And yeah, that has even further aspects down the road

522
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,720
with Nturi and the church and Ruby Road

523
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:22,520
and moments like that.

524
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:27,200
He'll talk even more explicitly and very, you know,

525
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,280
to him, that's such a raw and recent revelation

526
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,720
about his own adoption and so on

527
00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:38,760
that it makes the show new again

528
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,240
because it's like, we didn't know these things,

529
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:43,000
but they somehow feel more.

530
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,160
And this is, I don't mean to be this,

531
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,120
I don't mean this to be a big criticism of Chibnall.

532
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,920
He just seeded it in a softer way

533
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,080
and then didn't maybe use it to its fullest potential.

534
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,680
Whereas Russell T Davis is now sort of saying,

535
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,600
well, how would that feel?

536
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,480
You know, like how would that sit with the doctor

537
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,960
and how does it affect how he engages with people

538
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:04,920
and all that sort of thing?

539
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,800
So it's, yeah, it's really interesting.

540
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:09,640
Yeah.

541
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,800
And I said that was the last thing,

542
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,400
but like one more thing we should acknowledge

543
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,520
is like this is the most significant amount

544
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,960
of Bernard Cribbins that we get

545
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,400
like right at the end of this episode.

546
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,280
I thought you were gonna say the most significant

547
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,000
amount of CGI, but that's amazing.

548
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:27,840
Some people say it looks cheap, I think it looks amazing.

549
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,600
But yes, Bernard at the end there,

550
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:34,160
he gets a really lovely scene,

551
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,040
just a lovely bookend to his time on the show.

552
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,280
It's so, it's such a shame that at the start of the gig,

553
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:42,520
it was so clearly not him

554
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,480
and they're having to really just like work around

555
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,280
the fact that he had died or was too ill to continue.

556
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,160
And I don't know what else I could have done.

557
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,960
It's one of those unavoidable things,

558
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,920
but you still look at it and go, oh, that's not, you know,

559
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,200
it feels so flimsy compared to what we had

560
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,440
of him in the episode before.

561
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:08,280
And that's a shame, but at least he got one final hurrah

562
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,160
at a dedication.

563
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:11,720
I think the awkwardness of that bit

564
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:15,040
at the start of the giggle is worth putting in

565
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,000
like the material that they did have with him

566
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,520
at the end of Wild Beyond.

567
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,080
I wouldn't want to have lost that

568
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,840
for the sake of avoiding that.

569
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,600
100%. That cover.

570
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,840
But let's come on to the giggle then.

571
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,920
I mean, like I said, I feel like these three episodes

572
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:34,760
do a really good job of replicating

573
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,760
the beginning, middle, and end of a longer season.

574
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,120
And the giggle for me felt like almost like a two-part finale

575
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,320
squashed down into one episode in terms of how much happens.

576
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,680
It's kind of got that feature film or feature length

577
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,760
ambition and scale to it with lots of different locations

578
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,240
and stakes and things.

579
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,080
And we'll talk about as well about like the stuff at the end,

580
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,840
which I think again was the thing that was most focused on

581
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:05,680
in discussion.

582
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,120
But before we get onto By Generation

583
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,680
and all of that sort of stuff,

584
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,720
what were your thoughts about the story as a whole?

585
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:15,680
I liked it.

586
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,880
I had, I'd find myself in this position,

587
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:20,280
which I sometimes do,

588
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,160
and you'll understand this is a hardcore fan as well.

589
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,080
A thing that got online, which purported to be the,

590
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:32,080
basically the sort of storyline,

591
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,640
a synopsis of the overall storyline.

592
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,320
I read this thing at my own risk and found on watching it

593
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,720
that much of it turned out to be true.

594
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:44,280
Now that didn't ruin the viewing experience for me

595
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:45,720
because I can handle that.

596
00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:50,000
It's like I said, it was my decision and the telling,

597
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,120
the actual experience of how it's done

598
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,040
is always somewhat different to what you pictured

599
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,040
in your head when you saw the bullet points anyway.

600
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,000
But yeah, so I had that thing where,

601
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,760
why did we leave the honor of being the one that blew me away

602
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,840
with just the unknown, right?

603
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,400
Absolutely captivating me.

604
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:08,560
Starbeast had been familiar.

605
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,200
The giggle was familiar for different reasons,

606
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,720
but that was my own self-inflicted fault.

607
00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:18,720
But yeah, I thought it was a really good,

608
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:23,720
solid way to end that trilogy of The Fourteenth Doctor.

609
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,440
And the Toymaker returning was,

610
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,520
wow, it's just one of those things

611
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,280
you just couldn't have anticipated being the case.

612
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,200
And then suddenly it's like, yeah, of course,

613
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,020
it does make sense.

614
00:49:41,020 --> 00:49:44,040
Because if we're in this new era

615
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,480
of there could be God-like beings,

616
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,120
he would be one of the most powerful ones to come back.

617
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,080
The stuff I really like most is kind of the bits

618
00:49:58,080 --> 00:49:59,880
around the bi-generation at the end.

619
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:04,040
And that whole bit of where the doctor becomes

620
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,120
his own therapist and everything,

621
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:07,920
all that stuff is where it really culminates

622
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,880
into something transcendent for me.

623
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:15,000
And before that, it's kind of, I don't know,

624
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:20,000
in a strange way, the opening, say 15 to 20 minutes

625
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:25,520
feels most like Russell T. Davis II impersonating RTD1.

626
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,040
That's where it feels like it's like,

627
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:29,720
oh, we are in a bit of a retread here,

628
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:31,040
but I guess it's more forgivable

629
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,960
in this context of the 60th anniversary,

630
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,360
sort of playing familiar tropes.

631
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,640
But I'm still not sure what to think

632
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,960
of the massive new unit headquarters.

633
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,040
It works really well for the final scene

634
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,040
with a big laser gun and everything.

635
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,640
But yeah, this big sort of sky palace thing that they're in,

636
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,120
I don't know what I think of that set or the setup.

637
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,360
That bit where I love the fact

638
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,720
that when he first encounters Mel,

639
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:57,960
he's almost walked right past her

640
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,240
before he twigs who he's just spoken to.

641
00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:01,960
It's a lovely moment of,

642
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,560
because the doctor, he's such a genius,

643
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,200
but he can be so clueless in the moment too,

644
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,000
where it's just like, it takes him 30 seconds to go,

645
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,560
wait, was I just speaking to Melanie Bush?

646
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,960
It's like, I love moments like that

647
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,120
that really kind of break the tension.

648
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,480
And RTD is really good at just putting those in

649
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:22,880
at exactly the right moments

650
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:27,880
to sort of just make the thing sing a wee bit more.

651
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,240
Yeah.

652
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:33,040
Yeah, the new setup for unit is interesting.

653
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,640
And I feel like,

654
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,680
because Russell D. Davis has talked about this

655
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,400
before he came back about how

656
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:46,160
Doctor Who should be aping the Marvel Studios model,

657
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,520
and it felt maybe a bit on the nose

658
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:53,040
to evoke Avengers Tower so much with that unit building.

659
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,040
But I think in isolation, it looks really good.

660
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:56,480
I like the new unit setup.

661
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,720
I think Kate is used

662
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,840
in a really effective way in this episode.

663
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,640
And actually related to that,

664
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,000
one of her best moments is,

665
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,760
I really like just the concept of the giggle.

666
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,880
This idea that it's tapping into modern issues

667
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,200
around paranoia and anger and disinformation

668
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,520
and fake news and all of this,

669
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:24,840
it was very topical,

670
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,120
but also we mentioned years and years at the start,

671
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:33,080
I felt it was like pulling on exactly those sorts of themes

672
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,560
about politics and division

673
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:40,240
and the dynamics of that.

674
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:44,040
And then the way that that is connected to Kate

675
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,400
is she's used an example of what happens

676
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,240
if you take that inhibitor off.

677
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:51,440
And that was a really effective way of saying,

678
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,040
look, even good people or people that you like

679
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:59,800
are not invulnerable to this disease of,

680
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,400
yeah, like anger and division.

681
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:06,240
Yeah.

682
00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:08,800
So we're sort of peak that right now, aren't we?

683
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:13,800
In 2025, it feels even kind of prepped.

684
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:16,800
It does have that years and years thing of saying,

685
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:17,960
how much worse can it get?

686
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,160
Well, things begin to seem less science fiction

687
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,680
and more, oh my God, that was just around the corner.

688
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,800
But yeah, I agree with you.

689
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,000
Like the bi-generation stuff

690
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,800
and the therapy stuff at the end,

691
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,800
that's the bit that I think of first

692
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,640
and that I find most compelling.

693
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:45,120
But I think the rest of the story is really good as well.

694
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,080
I think Neil Patrick Harris is really, really strong

695
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,800
with the quite different reinterpretation of the Toymaker.

696
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,320
Like I said, it's got that sort of ambition.

697
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,160
And again, you can see the money with the special effects

698
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:04,160
and the number of locations and I think it's a really solid

699
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,680
finale that then has this.

700
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,520
And this is like one of the things I was thinking about

701
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:14,760
looking back on it is that this is like,

702
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:16,400
and actually I think I thought this at the time,

703
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,360
that it's kind of a really nice coda

704
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,520
to the whole of the Doctor story up until that point,

705
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,800
because you have this bi-generation,

706
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,520
you have one Doctor who goes off to just have a happy ending

707
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,880
and you have another Doctor who carries on.

708
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,120
And that moment when he's sitting around the table

709
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,200
with Donna and her family,

710
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,040
that feels like in another world,

711
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:44,040
it could be the last ever scene of the TV series,

712
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,200
that it's not this like overly dramatic final battle

713
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,080
with the Daleks and death.

714
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,480
It's just this, what is the line?

715
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,720
He says, I've never been so happy in my life.

716
00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:01,160
And that's, yeah, I think everything that got to that point

717
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,880
in those last few scenes was really incredible.

718
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,480
Yeah, I agree with that 100%.

719
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,120
Although it does, I've been thinking,

720
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,280
obviously since broadcast, I've been thinking,

721
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:14,280
how does it actually work?

722
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,440
Because in shooting arrives and he's like, okay,

723
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,600
I already have the benefits of your therapy

724
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,040
intrinsically in me.

725
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:27,000
So when Tennant shuffles off his mortal coil, as it were,

726
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:31,000
does he just get reabsorbed sort of somehow back into the

727
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,120
regeneration? It's really vague.

728
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,080
Yeah, I had the same question in my notes.

729
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,600
Does the 14th Doctor loop back and get absorbed back?

730
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,600
Because, okay, so there's a couple of things

731
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:44,560
that imply that.

732
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:49,400
The fact that the 15th Doctor can just fly off,

733
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,720
it suggests that he has in his own personal past

734
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:56,280
had that therapy and time to rest and heal.

735
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,360
And also, and I don't know if this is just like

736
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,280
vague phrasing, but Donna has a line where she says,

737
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,240
he's younger because you came after him.

738
00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:12,240
So again, that implies that the 15th Doctor is actually

739
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,120
older than the bio-generated 14th.

740
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:16,960
Yeah, yeah.

741
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:18,080
Because.

742
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:19,920
I think that is supporting evidence.

743
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,840
I'm not completely convinced.

744
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,600
It's ambiguous.

745
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,560
What I mean to say is that that's definitely the way it would,

746
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,880
that's the only way it can work by logical deduction.

747
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:35,800
I'm not completely sure if Russell T. Davis has thought

748
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:37,840
that through in exactly that way.

749
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,760
I'd like to think so, but I'm beginning on occasion

750
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,560
to wonder, does he cross all the I's and dot all the T's

751
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:45,400
on this stuff?

752
00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:49,280
He said some very confusing things at the time, I remember,

753
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,800
because he was, and this might have just been like hyperbole

754
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:53,520
and just like getting carried away in that, again,

755
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,960
that thing of like engaging really well with the press.

756
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,000
But I remember him saying things about, oh yeah,

757
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,920
it's retrospective and there's all these like

758
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,040
bio-generated classic Doctors out there.

759
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,040
And on one level, that's quite a lovely idea

760
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:09,840
because you could have like those classic Doctors

761
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,560
coming back to film new stories and it doesn't matter

762
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:17,640
that they look older because it's the bio-generated version.

763
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,640
But then also it raises like a million questions

764
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,040
and it doesn't answer that central question of like,

765
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:27,320
yeah, does the 14th Doctor loop back into the 15th

766
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,640
when he dies or does he continue off as a separate branch

767
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,480
and you end up with like infinite Doctors

768
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:35,960
because you're just doubling every time.

769
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,200
Yeah, does Tom Baker really get up and just wander off

770
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:40,760
into the dark dimension or something?

771
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:41,600
I don't know.

772
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:47,600
And also it kind of, maybe if I think about this,

773
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,760
over a longer time I'll become more accepting of it.

774
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:55,320
But it slightly cheapens the idea of,

775
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:57,720
you have your Doctor and then that Doctor,

776
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,160
death does claim a part of the Doctor each time.

777
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:05,040
The emotional impact of that Doctor dying and regenerating

778
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,240
is you will never see them again.

779
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:12,240
They've had their time and there isn't this sort of

780
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,680
bonus version sort of thing.

781
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:19,680
Does the bonus version bio-generate again as well?

782
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,920
Or do they have a different status from the main version

783
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:24,760
or the new version?

784
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:25,600
I don't know.

785
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:27,440
I love talking of doubling up though.

786
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,600
I love that thing with the mallet, just creating,

787
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,160
you know, you get a prize honey and then the second

788
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:34,160
TARDIS and all that.

789
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:36,400
Love it, absolutely love it.

790
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,520
It's such a Russell T. Davis idea.

791
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,720
You can just see, I think he's a very visual thinker

792
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,440
sometimes, before he puts words to the keyboard

793
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,160
he just says this, he'll see something like that in his head

794
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:48,240
and the kinetic energy of it.

795
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:49,840
He's like, I've got that.

796
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:51,120
He'll have drawn it before he's written it,

797
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,120
you know what I mean?

798
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:53,080
And it's one of those.

799
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:57,080
And I just thought that that really worked so well on screen.

800
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:03,240
So yeah, and then just that parting of the ways

801
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,320
of the two Doctors and I guess by implication

802
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,320
in the looping back to become, so yeah,

803
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:15,320
presumably the 14th Doctor's TARDIS has kind of a limiter

804
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,240
on it where it knows to take him only

805
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:20,920
to the non problematic places.

806
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:21,760
Do you know what I mean?

807
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:26,400
Like he's no longer the cosmic player.

808
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,680
He's the guy that nips off to New York for the weekend

809
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,000
and does a bit of shopping and it's nice.

810
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,880
Yeah, am I imagining it or was there some comment

811
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,840
like some behind the scenes comment about the significance

812
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,240
of which is the original TARDIS and which is the copy

813
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,720
and how that will come back at some point?

814
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,560
What was that like fan discussion?

815
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:47,040
What's this spit?

816
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:49,680
Well, it's the other thing.

817
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,440
Like, you know, we have these completely unsubstantiated,

818
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:56,080
unconfirmed rumors that Shruti is leaving.

819
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:00,920
But then that raises the question if that is true,

820
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,840
is David Tennant gonna pop back in to close that loop

821
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:08,880
or resolve that plot thread or we just never gonna see

822
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,680
David Tennant's 14th doctor again?

823
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,480
I think if you're gonna repeat that thing,

824
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,280
yes, David Tennant was exactly the right guy

825
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,200
to guarantee the bums on seats and all that for the 60th

826
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,440
and he deserved his lap of honor and all the rest of it

827
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,680
before taking a plunge into the new stuff.

828
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,840
But I think if you were going to have to,

829
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,040
and in this case it would be a contingency plan

830
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,680
rather than a sort of a celebratory thing,

831
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,680
to fill a void between why they work out what to do next.

832
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:39,520
I think you would go for,

833
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,040
you'd bring back Matt Smith, wouldn't you?

834
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:41,880
Or you, do you know what I mean?

835
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:43,720
You'd think for that next one.

836
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:47,040
That's interesting in itself,

837
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,640
but my thought was more about closing the loop

838
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,640
on some thing of like,

839
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,440
the 15th regenerates into the 16th,

840
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,040
but in that process of that happening,

841
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:03,040
somehow the 14th is involved and how do you do that?

842
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:08,040
And I don't know how it would work.

843
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,600
But yeah, that's another really interesting question.

844
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:12,800
If there was like a transition period again,

845
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,120
yeah, I agree, but Matt Smith.

846
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,960
The fact that they've supposedly unlocked a finale

847
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,400
to do a significant reshoot suggests something,

848
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:28,320
whether it's, a lot of dramatic deductions could be made

849
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,600
and I'm not saying that Jidi hasn't sort of said,

850
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,160
like I've waited long enough and I have to get on with my

851
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:37,560
career, but it could be just, you know,

852
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:42,560
Disney had some notes and those notes take time to film.

853
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:46,760
Right.

854
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,680
Yeah, and as I say, it's all speculation at the moment,

855
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:54,400
but interesting speculation.

856
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:55,480
Oh, one slide.

857
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:57,560
I love the 15th doctor's theme that gets introduced.

858
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:01,120
I think that's maybe my favorite doctor's theme

859
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:02,760
that's been introduced since the series came back.

860
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:07,480
I just absolutely adore that piece of music that is now

861
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:12,280
his iconic leitmotif or whatever you call it.

862
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:14,800
Yeah, it's so good.

863
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:16,240
It fits him spot on.

864
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,520
It feels like chaos or something.

865
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:19,360
It's really good.

866
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,360
Yes, and we don't get loads of him,

867
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,520
but I feel like we get enough to get a good sense

868
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,560
of who he is and obviously that gets picked up

869
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:30,160
in the next Christmas special and season one,

870
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:33,840
but I thought they did a good job of,

871
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:37,760
because it's a delicate balancing act to not overshadow

872
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:41,600
your brand new doctor by overlapping so much

873
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,760
with David Tennant, but I think they pulled it off.

874
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:52,120
Okay, let's do some final looking back then.

875
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,920
I think we've talked a bit already about like how we've

876
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:57,760
sort of thought about this stuff and how our views

877
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:59,120
on some stuff might have changed,

878
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:02,120
but anything more you wanted to say on that?

879
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:05,840
And also like how well did these three specials work

880
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,720
as a celebration of the 60th anniversary?

881
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,600
Because I've got some thoughts on this that basically

882
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,160
Power of the Doctor I think is a better

883
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,240
anniversary celebration, even though it was a year early,

884
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:19,680
but what are your thoughts?

885
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:23,360
Yeah, it was notionally the, ironically it was

886
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:27,720
the 100th anniversary of the BBC celebration, wasn't it?

887
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:29,800
It might've been the one where Stokey Bill

888
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,520
could have been more appropriately put in,

889
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:36,040
but although I suppose we haven't yet reached 100,

890
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,600
well, I mean this year we wanted 125 years

891
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,640
of television stuff from the BBC,

892
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:45,160
but yeah, I see what you're saying,

893
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,440
and to some extent you're right,

894
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,840
but I do think that if you're,

895
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:56,840
one doesn't want to be too backward looking,

896
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,800
even in celebrating, so it's kind of like,

897
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,120
okay, here's David Tennant taking a bite,

898
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,280
but he's not the 10th Doctor, he's the 14th Doctor,

899
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,760
so there's the new, the old, it's all mixed together,

900
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,480
there's a feeling of this show has energy left in it,

901
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:16,040
it's creative, tanks are not empty,

902
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:17,680
they're very far from empty,

903
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:20,800
and there's a little balance between

904
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:23,480
celebrating the things you know

905
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:25,480
and moving on from the things you know,

906
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:29,320
and I thought that was pretty perfectly judged,

907
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,320
it's kind of a bit like when Big Finish did Zagreus

908
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,440
instead of the light at the end or something,

909
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,440
it's more that kind of vibe when you wanna kind of go,

910
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,680
let's not do too much of what we've done before,

911
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:47,680
let's give it a flavor of the now as well,

912
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:49,200
I guess it's a bit of a

913
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:53,640
as well, I suppose it's RTV coming back

914
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:58,520
and giving more of a spotlight to his era

915
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:03,520
than Doctor Who overall as a 60 year thing,

916
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,000
but he's not not doing that because he's,

917
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:08,360
William Arnold actually appears in there

918
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,040
and we've got things like that,

919
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:13,440
so it's pretty balanced for anyone, yeah.

920
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,680
Because the whole thrust of these three specials

921
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,800
was wrapping up Donna's story,

922
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,360
or one big thrust of it was,

923
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,440
so in that sense, it's like,

924
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:31,360
it isn't covering the whole history of the show

925
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:34,520
and it's just picking up on that one particular

926
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:36,480
very important thread,

927
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:38,160
but actually the thing that we were talking about before

928
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:39,840
about how it's this kind of like,

929
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:44,920
in a really nice happy ending for the Doctor,

930
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:47,280
I think that's one way that you can tie it back

931
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:49,600
to being a celebration of the whole show,

932
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,720
that it's like a full stop or a coda

933
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:56,160
to the whole 60 year story that we've heard so far.

934
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:58,520
Yeah, I think that was a really nice thing to say about,

935
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:00,360
it could literally, that scene with Henan

936
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,520
around the table with Mad Auntie Mel and all those ones,

937
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,720
could really just genuinely be where it all stops,

938
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,880
and it would feel nice, it would just be a nice,

939
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,160
a nice thing to do, but yeah,

940
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:14,240
one other thing I was just gonna say,

941
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:18,920
in terms of high anticipation ultimately resolved in,

942
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,640
what's the kind of retrospective feeling

943
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:25,840
about how it turned out?

944
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,520
There's a, this is gonna maybe seem like an odd thing

945
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,800
to pull in at this point, but there's a sort of

946
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,880
a long running thing on YouTube where every so often

947
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:40,120
somebody will put together a little red dwarf titles version

948
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:43,840
of the Doctor Who, of a particular Doctor Who season,

949
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:46,600
with the little clips, put to the red dwarf music,

950
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:48,920
and some of those work better than others,

951
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,320
but one of the best ones I've seen,

952
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,240
maybe one of, maybe the best one I've seen is,

953
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:56,000
there's one for an insure-y season,

954
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,280
and there's one for these specials,

955
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:02,200
and the imagery in those just somehow seems to fit perfectly.

956
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:05,640
There's something big and cartoonish and bold,

957
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:09,760
and the spaceships feel cavernous,

958
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:11,800
but also there's little studio bound bits,

959
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,440
and something about the feel of it feels like,

960
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:17,480
I don't know, it's a universe in which you wouldn't be

961
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:22,160
surprised to see Starbuck turn up in or something,

962
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:27,160
it's that kind of vibe, and yeah,

963
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:31,200
so I just wanted to throw that in because I'm not sure

964
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,760
how to describe the overall vibe of what we've had,

965
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,800
and there's a full, further eight episodes of Chitty

966
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,480
in the tank to really get the overall flavor,

967
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:46,480
but some of the big swings in it feel really like, yeah,

968
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:51,720
you can absolutely imagine a red dwarf season where,

969
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,680
it goes between doppelgangers looking at each other,

970
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:00,520
and then somebody being sucked into a musical instrument,

971
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,160
or the meat being poked in the eye,

972
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:05,280
and reacting with a big flourish,

973
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:06,120
do you know what I mean?

974
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:08,080
It feels, when you see it done like that,

975
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:09,960
it's like, yeah, there's something,

976
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:12,560
there's a particular flavor to it

977
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:16,400
that's kind of freewheeling and fun,

978
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,560
but also, it's still got deep emotional heart to it,

979
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,040
and there's big stuff going on,

980
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:25,000
and actually just, I know this is sort of retreading

981
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:27,440
back into the giggle, but I meant to say,

982
01:08:27,440 --> 01:08:30,920
I love the thing about how the toy maker,

983
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,040
he wasn't just into games as games,

984
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:37,360
he was into the games of ghosting, and mind games,

985
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:39,280
and all the things that people do to each other

986
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:40,720
in the modern era.

987
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,360
Sorry, I meant to mention that at the time,

988
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:47,360
because those things are so damaging,

989
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:49,160
and I know we talked about the more political side of it,

990
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:53,400
but yeah, just, as I say,

991
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:55,960
I think a lot of the modern zeitgeist

992
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:59,760
has already been captured pretty well by Russell,

993
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:03,480
and that very concise way that he does,

994
01:09:03,480 --> 01:09:06,320
he's able to throw out a phrase and cover a lot of ground.

995
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:08,520
I think all that stuff about taking big swings

996
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:12,600
and interesting ideas, I think we can totally come back

997
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:17,080
to that next week when we start talking about season one,

998
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:20,040
because yeah, there's definitely lots of those in there.

999
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:23,280
I think we'll leave it there for this week,

1000
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:25,280
but there's a load of stuff I think we can pick up

1001
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:27,640
when we start looking at Church and Ruby Road,

1002
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:32,640
and the first half of season one in next week's podcast.

1003
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,040
I think one of the things that I was thinking about

1004
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:39,080
is where would you tell a new viewer to jump on?

1005
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:41,400
Would it be the Starbeast?

1006
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:43,120
Would it be Church and Ruby Road,

1007
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:45,160
or would it be Space Babies?

1008
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:47,680
And maybe we can have a discussion about the arguments

1009
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:49,360
for and against each of those,

1010
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:51,040
or would you tell them to go back

1011
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:55,440
and watch some of the classic series first?

1012
01:09:55,440 --> 01:09:58,400
But we'll leave it there for this week,

1013
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,400
and I'll say, I think we'll leave it there for next week,

1014
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,320
and thank you, Mark, for joining me.

1015
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:07,600
Well, thank you, I've enjoyed it.

1016
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:09,160
Yeah, no, it's been really good, I think,

1017
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:13,680
having that distance to reflect on

1018
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:15,720
how we feel about this stuff,

1019
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:19,240
because I think your views on things can change over time,

1020
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:21,240
as well as when you get the context

1021
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:22,680
of what's come since as well.

1022
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:27,680
And thank you to everyone for listening,

1023
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:29,440
and we will see you next week.

1024
01:10:29,440 --> 01:10:34,440
Bye.