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Introdu

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Hello and welcome to a podcast of Spurious Morality.

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This week we are venturing to the Unbound universe.

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We're going to have a look at Doctor Who Unbound, a range that Big Finish has kind of had on

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and off for about 20 years now.

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There aren't a lot of releases here.

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It's spun off into other things, but we're looking at those earlier releases.

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We're looking at the sort of initial run and then two follow ups that came along.

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So we're going to do some in this episode and then we're going to do some in a future

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episode.

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By the time we're done, we will have covered all of those original Unbounds.

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So we're going to look at two sort of alternative doctors today, two Unbound doctors.

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One of them is Geoffrey Beldham and one of them is David Warner.

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And to look at these doctors, I've got a few of these podcasters with me.

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I've got Gareth.

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Hello Gareth.

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Hello there.

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I've got Jimmy.

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Hi.

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And I've got Mark.

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Hello.

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And yeah, we've got some really good stories to get through today.

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We're going to do the two Geoffrey Beldham ones first.

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So we've got Old Mortality and A Storm of Angels because Jimmy's joined us just for

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those.

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You're a big, big fan of this doctor, aren't you?

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Oh, absolutely.

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I mean, I love the original Heartland Doctor, of course.

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And so a different spin on him was always going to be something that was going to appeal

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to me.

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And it's very well cast.

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He's very much the first doctor, but not our first doctor.

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And I really do like how that works so incredibly well.

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Yeah, and especially considering he was originally considered for the role back when the show

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actually started and then considered again for the five doctors.

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And I mean, I wouldn't want to lose Hartland's performance, of course, but I would have loved

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to have seen him in the five doctors.

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He would have been brilliant based on these audios.

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I can absolutely see why he was a contender for that.

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Yeah.

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So before we before we dive in, I'm going to go around each one of you and ask what

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your favourite Unbound story is.

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This is from the that first run and kind of the two follow ups that we're also looking

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at today.

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So Gareth, do you want to go first?

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What's your favourite Doctor Who Unbound release?

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Of the four we're doing today, definitely Old Mortality, I would say.

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Yeah, I mean, we'll get into it, but I've always kind of felt like it's a sort of a

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sats anniversary special, like no particular anniversary.

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It just really feels like a sort of celebration of Doctor Who kind of thing.

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Like it's really just about the general tenets of it.

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And I always come away from it, especially the last couple of minutes, just feeling quite

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good about the whole show, really.

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Yeah, I think it's quite special in a lot of ways.

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We'll get into it.

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But yeah, that's that's the one I think.

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It's definitely a good one.

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Jimmy, I imagine you're going to have a similar answer.

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Well actually, I know a lot of people prefer of the two veiled and one's Old Mortality,

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but I actually personally love A Storm of Angels.

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I mean, Old Mortality is brilliant, but A Storm of Angels just just narrowly pips it

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for me.

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I think it does some really sort of wonderful stuff with Susan that I can see why would

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push it across the line.

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Yeah, I get that.

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What about you, Mark?

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Yeah, I'm also like Gareth, it's Old Mortality for me, not just of the four we're talking

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about today, but out of all the unbounds, I think it's having shoulders above the rest.

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I just think it's it's one of the best things Big Finish ever did.

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Never mind the unbounds.

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I think it's just one of their finest stars.

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Just to piggyback off that for a sec, I definitely agree.

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I tend to use this as an example of I kind of find Mark Platt a little bit hit and miss

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sometimes because I find that sometimes his ideas, I can't really get on board with them.

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Like sometimes he'll have he's always got loads of ideas, but sometimes I can't quite

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get to the middle of them and sort of figure out what the story is.

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And this for me is and not to say like, you know, Storm of Angels isn't good.

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But this for me is always kind of my example in Big Finish of like, well, sometimes I find

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it, you know, just perfectly works.

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So yeah, just banga.

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Yeah, I agree that it's certainly the best thing I've ever heard written by him.

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And yeah, he just he just plays a blind over this one.

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So I look forward to talking about it a bit more.

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You see, I'm coming straight in with a different answer now.

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Mine's always been Sympathy for the Devil.

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I think it's an absolutely wonderful story and it's a little bit continuity reliant,

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certainly not as continuity reliant as other Unbound releases, but that is for another

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day.

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But I quite like what it does with, you know, the Brigadier and the idea of the Doctor being

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exiled to the wrong time and sort of plays into events of the Mind of Evil have occurred,

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but without the Doctor there.

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And we get an absolutely fantastic master out of it.

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And I do love the David Warner Doctor.

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This is his sort of origin story is absolutely wonderful.

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And I really, really like the fact that it just holds such a wonderful, doomy atmosphere

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all the way through.

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It just feels like it's building to the disaster that it eventually does build to.

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It's very well done.

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But again, we'll discuss it more later.

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Let's go straight to Old Mortality then, which we've already said a little bit on, but let's

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expand.

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You go first, Gareth.

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Okay, so the What If here is probably because that's kind of an underappreciated thing of

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these releases.

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You can enjoy them just as stories, but they also aim to have like a What If jumping off

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thing.

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So for this one, it's What If the Doctor Never Left Gallifrey?

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And I think it does a very interesting job of not just sort of having that as the premise,

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but interrogating it in the story.

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So it goes, all right, what would he do if he didn't leave Gallifrey?

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And why wouldn't he?

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Like what would have happened to him to kind of prevent that?

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Because I think we can take it as read that it's in his nature to go, so he shouldn't

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want to stay.

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So yeah, he becomes this author, which I think is a kind of wonderfully sort of not immediately

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obvious thing that the Doctor would do with his time.

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But at the same time, because Doctor Who is such an institution of storytelling, that kind

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of feels in a meta way, like perfect.

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But of course, he's, you know, if he's not having adventures, he'd want to be kind of

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vicariously having them.

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And the story of why he hasn't left Gallifrey becomes this kind of heavy Gallifrey and law

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thing, which obviously leans into Mark Platt's, perhaps less readily accessible adventure,

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Lungbarrow.

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But on that subject, I would say I heard this long before I read Lungbarrow, and I don't

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think there's any required reading in this.

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I think it's very much, it kind of takes the kind of weird, fustery atmosphere of that

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particular book and just brings that to life quite well.

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You don't need anything.

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You know, the Doctor's got this strange robot butler called Badger.

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That's an absurd enough idea to just kind of play with straight away.

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You don't need to go, well, we set that up in the book.

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Yeah, and Susan is on the periphery as well.

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She's the president of Gallifrey now.

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I think that's correct.

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I've not heard this for about a month now.

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But yeah, they've got this whole relationship kind of a little bit strained, and you get

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to see sort of what their relationship would be if he'd not left, what would happen with

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her.

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So yeah, I just think it's a very interesting example of kind of sort of dropping the stone

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in the pond and kind of following the ripples and going, you know, the what if, how far

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can you go with it?

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Yeah, it immediately sort of jumps on that idea of what if he was still on Gallifrey.

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It's not the take I'd have come up with, I have to admit.

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I'd have had the Doctor sort of not hiding away and being a bit of a hermit and a writer.

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I'd have had him getting stuck in and being iconoclastic and basically being the Doctor

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that we see when he does visit Gallifrey.

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But yeah, it's a really sort of unique and wonderful, interesting take.

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Jimmy, what are your thoughts on it?

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Yeah, I think this story just does such a good job of everything it sets out to.

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I mean, the premise of the Doctor being stuck on Gallifrey and having wanted to leave but

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never got to do it and seeing this alternate spit on him is just, it's just amazing the

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way he still wants to explore the universe and so he's doing it through creativity and

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imagination rather than through actual travel.

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And the whole time, you know, he's actually celebrated and beloved and they want him at

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presentations and he's, but the badger is stopping it from happening and seeing Susan

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come in and shake his life up and turn it back around is just, it's such a good dynamic

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they have.

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I mean, I love the original first Doctor and Susan, of course, but this different take

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on it where Susan's a bit older and wiser and she's about to become the President and

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meeting the grandfather who she hasn't seen in possibly centuries and they still just

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hit it right off and he's instantly loving to have her back there and the joy in his

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face when he hears that she's got her own grandchildren and he's a great, great grandfather.

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The performance they both give is brilliant and of course for Susan, it's the first, I

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think it was before the Companion Chronicles that this came out, it was her first return

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to the role and she just picks up this similar but different character perfectly and Baildon

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is incredible.

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I mean, I know it's unbound and so he's not supposed to be the first Doctor but like,

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if it's an alternate part of the first Doctor's life, then logically he hasn't regenerated

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so it's the same character and whether he was intending to or not, he just, not perfectly

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but he does a spectacular job of being the Hartnell style performance.

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I mean, there's the characterisation differences but the performance is just so pure Hartnell

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it makes me wish Big Finish had come around to or accepted the idea of recasting sooner

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because I would have loved to hear him as the canon version of the first Doctor.

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But yeah, it's such a brilliant story and there's lots of little coincidences listening

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to it all these years later that are funny like I noticed two things that if the audio

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was released today, you'd be like, oh, that's a good callback but it was actually accidental

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like the way he's, one of his celebrated novels is an adventure in space and time and of course

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that became the title of the drama about the creation of the show and even when he's talking

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about the lines about different possibilities and so many different paths, he even gets

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a line about suppose I've taken a different path, suppose I turn left this morning instead

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of right and it's just like, you'd think that was heavy handed if it was coming out today

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but like it was actual accidental foreshadowing and I just love it.

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But yeah, also the story within a story of Hannibal's army marching on Rome and it's

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such a good sort of historical thing but they switch it up and you've got Suress, the elephant

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who can talk and oh, we'll try this path but then we'll redo it and take the other path

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and it just, yeah, it's interesting to hear the story interact with him like he's supposed

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to be a writer and it's like you often hear about people who write being like, oh, the

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doctor wouldn't do it, they changed it on me and it actually happens literally in this

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case and it's just such a brilliant ending to the story when Suress and Hannibal and

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his army storm the Panopticon and then you get to the bit about Susan trying to get the

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doctor to turn off the machine and even after all this time, he's just worried that she's

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his imagination and she's not real and if he turns off the machine, she'll be gone which

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is excellent foreshadowing for of course the storm of angels and so yeah, I think this

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story as much as I prefer storm of angels, I absolutely love old mortality, it's pretty

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much flawless, I yeah, thoroughly enjoy it.

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I have to admit, you're definitely sort of selling it to me, it's never been my favourite

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as I said before and I really need to go back to it and give it yet another go, I've listened

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to it relatively recently preparing for this. Yeah, I do think that as I've listened to

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it in the past, I have taken just a little bit more from it each time, I think that that's

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I must obviously need to go back and do it again. What about you Mark, talk to us about

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old mortality.

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Right, well gosh, I was trying to think shortly before we recorded how I could adequately

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put into words what this story means to me because I listen to this thing like clockwork

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every just close to the anniversary every year and I don't think I've missed a single

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year because this thing has become such a pure distillation of what Doctor Who is despite

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being from the unbound universe and not the prime canon timeline as it were and I think

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I suddenly hit upon the realisation not long before we recorded that it's the closest that

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a story has ever felt to me like the feeling of Christmas Eve. Now I know that sounds like

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a bit of a strange thing to bring out at this point but it's Christmas Eve is my favourite

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day of the year right, it's the part of Christmas where Christmas hasn't started to begin to

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be over yet right, so in other words the possibility tree of Christmas is still completely intact

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you haven't taken a single turn right left or any of the branches yet you know it's all

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there ahead of you and it's this perfect little pristine moment of magic in the air between

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where ordinary time temporarily stops you're at the beginning of this bubble of unreality

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that we all just sit in for the last bit of the year and there's a particular flavour

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of magic to Christmas Eve itself and no other part of Christmas where it's just like yeah

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there's something just pristine and perfect about this and that's what all mortality feels

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like to me when I listen to it. Now why is that? I think it's something to do with the

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fact that if you take those moments at Doctor Who's actual you know you know TV canon or

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whatever where they've tried to do sorry where they have very successfully done anniversary

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stories and things of that nature where the series tries to take a look at itself it often

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does a very good job but it can never entirely give you if you like from the outside in a

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complete overview of what Doctor Who is it's total magic right? Old mortality can somehow

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do it by being just a universe to the left you know it can look in on what we understand

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as Doctor Who but it can also show you because not one branch of the possibility tree has

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yet been taken and yet we see all these things we even see glimpses of you know a foggy night

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on Bob Barnes common and we see you know glimpses of the TARDIS spiralling between worlds and

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a meeting with Winston Churchill it's not the one we see on television and all these

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different images are and Mark Platt comes up with some absolutely exquisitely expressed

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poetic images you know torchlight on the canals of Venice and mystery and intrigue all of

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it as yet unexplored and all of it therefore perfect nothing's been compromised yet if

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that makes sense and yet the Doctor is still in this liminal state that he needs to break

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free of he needs to begin to begin you know he needs to have his the Christmas that will

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be Doctor Who as we know it must unfold and wrong turns and right turns and imperfections

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must unfold he needs to begin to live rather than live in this liminal space and yet just

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being in that just as a one-off experience with that Doctor who's so close to being William

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Hartnell is such a special thing it's it's it feels like the the most successful this

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is what Doctor Who is and this is what Doctor Who feels like in terms of its total magic

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and it can only do it by not being like embedded in the series itself where it can't completely

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comprehend itself if that makes sense I'm not sure I've expressed that very well but

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hopefully you get some sense of what I mean but but just to take it down to the level

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of the slightly less abstract and the more just like you know elements of the story I

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think there's some brilliant things that Mark Platt does here he brings in this character

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of Uncle Quences sorry Grand Uncle Quences who is this kind of like spectral figure haunting

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the whole thing and he there's all sorts of wonderful stuff the Hannibal stuff at the

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beginning is a lovely little sort of nod to you know here was the alternative possibility

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to starting with cavemen you know which also gets referenced then later in Deadline as

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well and one key component I'll just mention in case it goes out of my head before we stop

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talking about this Alistair Locke's music for this thing is perfect those initial sequences

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with Hannibal he has he conjures this epic feel of almost like you know like there's

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old Charlton Heston cast of thousands epic movies from back in the day the biblical epics

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you know or things of that nature and and yet when it comes down to the little closet

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and sort of cosy but trapped existence that the doctor is living in his little sort of

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tomb slash house there you know there's this very intricate music comes in when Susan first

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walks into the study and she's exploring all his papers and she's going through all the

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places he's he's visited in his imagination and the whole thing is wonderful but there's

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this brilliant contrast between yeah this sort of and again this is part of the fundamental

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magic of Doctor Who the cosiness of that little bubble and he's living in there versus tentative

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kind of voyages into into the unknown into the the cold spaces of the universe as I think

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Uncle Quenches retreats from you know he's he's like you know like the place for that

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is an observatory I don't I don't want to be out here in in the real universe you know

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whereas the doctor kind of yearns for that and he catches glimpses of that possibility

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of himself spiralling between worlds and anyway there's so much stuff in it I can only you

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know get to the tip of the iceberg really and I'll stop talking because I could go

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on and on but it's it's a truly special thing and I can only really conjure a fraction of

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how I feel about it because it's so good.

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I think it's sort of fairly unique really for a story to evoke you know reactions like

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this I struggle to think of anything else that we've done on this podcast that kind

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of would have the same impact on on the listener and I think that that's something they probably

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were consciously tapping into at the very start you know they had the opportunity to

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do something big and wonderful and special and I guess they've kind of really really

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hit the nail on the head with it and succeeded and I guess that you know all of the things

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we've discussed sort of the the wonderful way it's layered and Bailden's Doctor being

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so brilliant and Carol Anne Ford being so fantastic as this slightly alternative Susan

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and it was obvious to revisit and to do a sequel and we got a sequel which is of course

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Storm of Angels very very very different story but it certainly has the same heart as all

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the mortality I think and that's that's important you know this this Unbound Universe it sort

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of has a very very unique feel that I don't think any of the others do at all and obviously

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it having a second story when many of the others didn't perhaps perhaps helps that but

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yeah it's such a shame that really we only got two stories out of this this Doctor but

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let's talk about Storm of Angels then and we'll we'll go straight to Gareth go ahead

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okay well just just first off I just want to say that that was a very incredible observation

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there from from Mark comparing it all of that about Christmas Eve I thought that was absolutely

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yeah I think you've nailed it it's it's Christmassy yeah no no fantastic and I love the way that

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it it's a it kind of defines Doctor Who by showing you a negative in a way you take away

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Doctor Who and you go what's left and you see the imprint ah I love that um with with

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Storm of Angels and I'm sure Jimmy's probably got the definitive take on this given the

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the love he has for it um for me and I don't mean this to denigrate it at all the same

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I would I would say uh spoiler alert is sort of true for me if Masters of War is it feels

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more like a kind of treat or like a victory lap than um than like a definitive entry in

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the kind of what if pantheon um because in this one we kind of continue to explore the

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idea uh at the end of Old Mortality when the Doctor you know both does and does not kind

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of crumble and go right that's it I'm gonna leave um and he goes off into space and um

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we find his adventures with Susan continuing and he's on this Elizabethan spaceship which

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is which is all very enlightenment which is great because that that coincidentally is

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is probably one of my sort of top three stories from the entire 80s of Doctor Who um yeah

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they're just having this incredible adventure where it seems that the Doctor is so obsessed

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with possibility and he's been kind of I took away from it that he's been kind of worse

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and in a way because he's been trapped and he's been forced to imagine so much that um

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he's really not that bothered about history like the details staying the same he's very

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much like well you know you can give things a little nudge that's okay so we do kind of

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explore you know the possibility that uh the Doctor and Susan could have kind of given

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things a little prod to the left or the right um and you have this adventure that's uh again

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to me it feels kind of just like oh it's such a such a wonderful thing to get four more

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episodes with these characters we are insanely lucky like I absolutely agree we you know

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in a in a perfect universe we would have got loads because Bailden clearly is the man I

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mean he is fantastic he's not doing a William Hartnell impression uh he's very much just

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inhabiting the character in the way that he does um but strangely that's no problem like

309
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at no point am I in any doubt this is the first Doctor um and you've got Carol Anne

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Ford as well and she I think these these are probably you know like you were saying that

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you guys were saying that this was her sort of inaugural big finish um what a landing

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because the thing if you've ever heard Carol Anne Ford speak about you know her time on

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Doctor Who uh I saw at a convention thingy last year um met her she's very nice um the

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thing she always kind of lands on is that obviously she loves her time in the show she's

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very proud of it but they kind of well they didn't really deliver she feels on like the

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level of progression that Susan could have had like she kind of saw the character being

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a kind of a bigger grander thing and um the show uh somewhat boxed her in I would say

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you know more of the she's going to twist her ankle kind of thing um that doesn't mean

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there's no value to that but maybe it's not uh it's not what Carol Anne Ford thought she

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was getting into um and these two releases are very much like well okay you're not that

321
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16 year old anymore what are you what what can you bring to this and in Old Mortality

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you know she gets to be quite annoyed with him like with the doctor you know she gets

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to be older she's got her own business and family she can't just drop everything and

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run she's a bit miffed with him and stuff eventually they kind of make up and in this

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one we actually get a full-on dichotomy of the two so we get to see a version of older

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Susan who's kind of living as the younger version and we get the kind of older version truly

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and they have scenes together and it's incredible to me because I kind of I mean I'm projecting

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here I suppose but I kind of imagine this is very much Carol Anne Ford being given an

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opportunity to kind of show off and go like I'm not just that I can I can be different

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facets of this character and you know I can I can talk to this younger one in a kind of

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you're not naive but you know there's there's more to you than this and I just I love the

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kind of showcase of that for her but but Baalden is incredible here the thing I think I take

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away from it mostly though strangely is the monsters because you've got these angels which

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and Jimmy was saying you know this is Old Mortality for example is one of those things

335
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where you go oh that one what an accidental call back to the future we've got terrifying

336
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angels in this one which you know one or two of those might have appeared in Doctor Who

337
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since then but they're made of gems and there's this whole there's this whole kind of theme

338
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of the way these gems operate and they kind of climb into people's bodies into their mouths

339
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and the sort of sound of that and the sort of sound of people kind of drowning on these

340
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gems and pebbles is just genuinely upsetting but in a really you know effective way because

341
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yeah you've got this kind of horrible gaudy Elizabethan situation where you've got all

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these people kind of marvelling at this excess and this wealth but this excess and this wealth

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is reanimated corpses filled with gemstones and it's just it's just an unforgettable kind

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of image and yeah it really does set this apart from Old Mortality I don't think as

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much as I refer to this as feeling like a bit of a victory lap I don't think anybody's

346
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resting on their laurels creatively I you know they're very much going let's have a

347
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full-on adventure for these characters but let's also you know let's do something we

348
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haven't done before like let's really make these monsters kind of count as something

349
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memorable and horrible yeah so it's it's surprisingly grim I think it just about holds on to that

350
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kind of sweetness and possibility of of Old Mortality as well which kind of makes it an

351
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interesting mix because you still have that ongoing question of like what is the doctor

352
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going to do with his life is this the right thing he can do with it you know particularly

353
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in reference to dilly dallying with history shall we say and Susan still has to make her

354
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mind up which sort of continues that theme from Old Mortality to kind of a more definite

355
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conclusion for the two of them so so yeah while I while I kind of feel like Old Mortality

356
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for me is is more of a kind of a perfect imprint of what a story is trying to say and this

357
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one I would say is a little more kind of typically Doctor Who because it is the doctor and companion

358
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golf and have an adventure and battle monsters I think it's creative enough and it carries

359
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over enough of that spirit to to feel special like you wouldn't confuse this with another

360
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a sort of normal run-of-the-mill episode of Doctor Who so I think it's it's along with

361
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Masters of War which which we'll get to I think it's about as close as this range comes

362
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to feeling kind of normal but yeah you're still aware of the kind of specialness of

363
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the unbound universe that kind of sets it apart wish we got more but I'm glad we got

364
00:30:50,260 --> 00:30:56,980
to I think that it's a shame we never got more is going to be a bit of a running theme

365
00:30:56,980 --> 00:31:03,600
as we visit quite a few of these stories but yeah completely agree with you pretty much

366
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everything you've said there to be honest it's it does feel a bit like a victory lap

367
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but I like the fact that we do get to experience one of the adventures that was kind of hinted

368
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at at the end of all mortality I'm glad we've got that as opposed to just the the montage

369
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at the end anyway Jimmy go on talk to us about a storm of angels well firstly I'd say that

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I think it's a clever way they did it with the Susans was that it's not just a follow

371
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up to one of the endings of old mortality it's a sort of follow up to two because you've

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got these two different Susans the one who stayed with the doctor and became his companion

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the one who remained on Gallifrey to become the president and so you're not just following

374
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up on one possibility you're following up on two and that's a clever way to do it and

375
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:57,220
again it gives Susan Carol Anne Ford such a brilliant chance at getting her teeth into

376
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the role she's she's got two very different versions of Susan she's got both of them dynamic

377
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with the doctor and they're dynamic with each other in the scenes where they're together

378
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and she absolutely knocks it out of the park she's brilliant as both Susans and yeah they

379
00:32:13,460 --> 00:32:18,660
both both actors her and Bailden absolutely capture the first Doctor and Susan of this

380
00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:24,260
alternate universe again so well like there's so many little lines and bits and pieces that

381
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just feel so true to Hartnell and to Carol back in the day like the at the start when

382
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the Time Lord agent comes after the doctor and he just sounds so frustrated and you could

383
00:32:36,140 --> 00:32:40,740
imagine that's what Hartnell would have been like if the Time Lords assisted in the TV showing

384
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his time and yeah he's got such a great dynamic with Susan and they even say it themselves

385
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that this part which is like well how did you ever cope without me and he's like fortunately

386
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:55,860
for you I can't imagine and it's just so sweet like because the dynamic between the Doctor

387
00:32:55,860 --> 00:33:01,140
and Susan in the actual show it's brilliant but it doesn't get fleshed out quite as much

388
00:33:01,140 --> 00:33:06,380
sometimes because of the nature of 60s television whereas here you can absolutely see the love

389
00:33:06,380 --> 00:33:11,700
and the care for each other so much stronger and yeah and again there's the differences

390
00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:16,620
as well like the Doctor being excited about the possibility of mentioning Shakespeare because

391
00:33:16,620 --> 00:33:21,820
he's another writer and the Doctor being a writer and I think that sort of ties into

392
00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:27,140
why he's got such a different attitude about history he's spent you know however many centuries

393
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writing fiction about history and you know you can do what you like in fiction you can

394
00:33:31,740 --> 00:33:36,460
pull plot devices you can change things around and so when he gets into real history he's

395
00:33:36,460 --> 00:33:40,700
too used to the way he's been doing it and so that's why he ends up changing things he's

396
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:45,940
like oh I can't have done much we didn't tell Leonardo much about the way technology works

397
00:33:45,940 --> 00:33:51,780
oh and we only visited Mars with him once or whatever and it's just he's the denial

398
00:33:51,780 --> 00:33:58,020
as well is so very Hartnell like there's the bits in TV like in The Edge of Destruction

399
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where when they all realize something's gone wrong with their minds and he's like nothing's

400
00:34:02,340 --> 00:34:06,020
happening to me I'm fine and it's the same in this story about his denial about altering

401
00:34:06,020 --> 00:34:11,220
history he's like no no this is a parallel universe it's not me it's not me and yeah

402
00:34:11,220 --> 00:34:16,740
the characterization it's just yeah absolutely perfect and again funny lines like the bit

403
00:34:16,740 --> 00:34:21,060
when they called Hittardus a beer barrel and he's like it's a perfectly respectable barrel

404
00:34:21,060 --> 00:34:25,580
it's just he really captures Hartnell even more than he did in the first story for me

405
00:34:25,580 --> 00:34:33,020
and again the script the imagery is so brilliant like you've got Elizabethan spaceships that

406
00:34:33,020 --> 00:34:42,660
are steam powered and they've got telephones in them that it's it's just they yeah it just

407
00:34:42,660 --> 00:34:48,020
makes such an interesting setting and it gives you the interesting dynamic with the two different

408
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Susans and I think that's again one of the things that got the best handling like especially

409
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with them swapping places at the end and the bit where they're like and we can't tell grandfather

410
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and then you get the doctor being like yeah I knew without actually saying it to them

411
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and it's just yeah it's so lovely and I think also again with Susans this story has one

412
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:15,220
of my favorite lines in Big Finish about the different attitudes to changing history than

413
00:35:15,220 --> 00:35:19,820
in the main canon and it's that lovely line of when your ankle deep in tears and blood

414
00:35:19,820 --> 00:35:24,940
you can't let people suffer just because it's history and I absolutely love that like that's

415
00:35:24,940 --> 00:35:30,220
mine that deserves to be in the actual canon show at some point like that was just brilliant

416
00:35:30,220 --> 00:35:37,040
and yeah I yeah there's not much more I can say I just absolutely love this story and

417
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:43,260
it's one of my favorites not just of the Unbound but of the entire Big Finish catalog it's

418
00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:46,380
just yeah amazing.

419
00:35:46,380 --> 00:35:50,780
Yeah I do love the whole stuff about changing history and that different attitude and that's

420
00:35:50,780 --> 00:35:58,020
kind of it's something that becomes a bit more of this doctor's identity than it does

421
00:35:58,020 --> 00:36:04,180
the normal doctor the regular doctor and I really like the way that that's something

422
00:36:04,180 --> 00:36:09,060
that we sort of quietly explore which wasn't the original premise but it's something that

423
00:36:09,060 --> 00:36:10,900
we are we're going to play with here.

424
00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:16,620
The way the angels are all about feeding on desire and they try to get the doctor to go

425
00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:20,900
with them and when they ask him about his desires and his only desire is not to lose

426
00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:26,700
Susan and that's great foreshadowing of how you know she's the fake Susan but it's also

427
00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:31,020
just so sweet that the only thing he wants is not to lose her after he's finally found

428
00:36:31,020 --> 00:36:38,140
her so yeah that was another thing I just absolutely had to mention as well as the doctor's

429
00:36:38,140 --> 00:36:42,900
attitude being a bit more blunt than even Hartnell on TV when he talks to Dee about

430
00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:47,900
oh you're such a brilliant scientist so wonderful to meet you shame about that astrology nonsense

431
00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:52,460
like Hartnell wouldn't have been that blunt even though he'd be thinking it and so yeah

432
00:36:52,460 --> 00:36:57,220
again another great difference for the character so yeah I just had to mention those because

433
00:36:57,220 --> 00:36:59,780
I just realized I forgot sorry.

434
00:36:59,780 --> 00:37:01,820
No no not a problem.

435
00:37:01,820 --> 00:37:03,940
So yeah go ahead Mark.

436
00:37:03,940 --> 00:37:10,980
So I must admit this is the one I came revisited with the greatest reluctance not because I

437
00:37:10,980 --> 00:37:15,980
believe it's worse than a couple of others which we'll get to in time because it's decidedly

438
00:37:15,980 --> 00:37:23,980
not but I think it is just that thing for me of all the mortality does a very particular

439
00:37:23,980 --> 00:37:30,980
thing and that particular thing is it is that that undisturbed Christmas Eve moment that

440
00:37:30,980 --> 00:37:38,060
I kind of talked about and I if I could use another analogy maybe a bit of a strange and

441
00:37:38,060 --> 00:37:45,860
oblique one to use but the film The Neverending Story I love that film right but I was dismayed

442
00:37:45,860 --> 00:37:50,380
to discover that they made sequels to it because I thought you've absolutely missed the point

443
00:37:50,380 --> 00:37:54,900
of your own film there if you're making sequels to that because it ends in a way where Fantasia

444
00:37:54,900 --> 00:38:01,660
is restored and the possibilities are there and you don't telescope them down you know.

445
00:38:01,660 --> 00:38:07,100
Now I appreciate what Jimmy was saying that in fact although one branch of the possibility

446
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:13,780
tree is shown ultimately to have been taken and we know exactly sort of where they ended

447
00:38:13,780 --> 00:38:20,060
up at least for one adventure and a few other things hinted at.

448
00:38:20,060 --> 00:38:25,740
Nevertheless some stuff has begun to crystallise there into like if you like a kind of run

449
00:38:25,740 --> 00:38:34,380
of the mill ongoing Doctor Who and that's I appreciate that there's a twist to that

450
00:38:34,380 --> 00:38:41,220
and it's exactly what Jimmy said where it's it's simple there's a kind of a Schrodinger's

451
00:38:41,220 --> 00:38:47,300
Susan thing going on still even within the fork of the road taken but it still feels

452
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:51,500
like an already slightly compromised thing to what was a perfect one off.

453
00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:56,980
Now on the plus side you do get more of Bale than which is brilliant and actually was reminded

454
00:38:56,980 --> 00:39:02,500
when Jimmy was talking there of the fact that they you know he was referring to the apartments

455
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:09,140
and so on of Hartnell being amped up even a little bit.

456
00:39:09,140 --> 00:39:12,980
They take a little there's one particular little word that Hartnell said a couple of

457
00:39:12,980 --> 00:39:18,660
times which was just I think he maybe only says it in an Unearthly Child but he is this

458
00:39:18,660 --> 00:39:25,460
word insulting you know if somebody says something to him that he takes offence to he'll go insulting

459
00:39:25,460 --> 00:39:28,980
but that comes up a number of times with Bale and it almost becomes a catchphrase for him

460
00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:31,700
and I like that.

461
00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:36,660
I think it is quite nice to just revisit the dynamic between his brilliant performance

462
00:39:36,660 --> 00:39:43,580
and Carol Ann Ford's brilliant chemistry with him as the closest thing she's had to an actual

463
00:39:43,580 --> 00:39:54,180
Hartnell performance since the original series but yeah I just feel overall there's some

464
00:39:54,180 --> 00:40:00,460
stuff there it's like Mark Platt will never disappoint in terms of giving you really vivid

465
00:40:00,460 --> 00:40:06,700
imagery almost like fever dream stuff every single time and this is no exception although

466
00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:11,900
I think some of the stuff he uses there he kind of reuses in my opinion a little more

467
00:40:11,900 --> 00:40:23,660
effectively in Time Reef you know the sort of the spacefaring kind of Francis Drake type

468
00:40:23,660 --> 00:40:31,620
ships and all that but yeah but when Gareth was talking I was reminded there of it came

469
00:40:31,620 --> 00:40:37,900
into my head actually he was saying that thing about the angels and what they do and the

470
00:40:37,900 --> 00:40:43,900
people drowning in gems and so on it suddenly came back into my head I hadn't been at the

471
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:51,020
association until just there but I was recently revisiting some MR James stories and one of

472
00:40:51,020 --> 00:40:57,180
them casting the runes has exactly that kind of image in it of somebody's ultimate fate

473
00:40:57,180 --> 00:41:04,460
being their mouth is they're fine dead and their mouth stuffed full of pebbles on the

474
00:41:04,460 --> 00:41:13,380
beach and I wonder did something of that go into Mark Platt's conscious or unconscious

475
00:41:13,380 --> 00:41:20,180
influences when he wrote this thing. The more I talk about it the more I'm kind of slightly

476
00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:28,740
falling a wee bit more in love with the story again than I remember doing so the first time

477
00:41:28,740 --> 00:41:37,220
around but to me it's very much the inferior entry in the Bealdon sequence but in fact

478
00:41:37,220 --> 00:41:42,980
I wish it wasn't a sequence that's my point really. I think really with The Unbinds I

479
00:41:42,980 --> 00:41:48,260
would like it to be one of two things either a perfectly self-contained story where it's

480
00:41:48,260 --> 00:41:56,140
it sits alone it says something very specific that is unbind for a reason or it does what

481
00:41:56,140 --> 00:42:07,860
they ultimately did with David Warner's Doctor and turn it into an ongoing run and even intertwine

482
00:42:07,860 --> 00:42:14,860
it with the primary universe. This thing where you just throw like a kind of an also ran

483
00:42:14,860 --> 00:42:20,420
sequel onto the back of it ultimately feels unsatisfying to me it can still be an enjoyable

484
00:42:20,420 --> 00:42:27,540
ride while you're in the moment and I listened to Masters of War recently for the first time

485
00:42:27,540 --> 00:42:35,380
and find it similarly good but not but nowhere near as good as the other Warner story so

486
00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:40,540
I hope you see what I'm saying it's kind of you've got to throw the lever one way or the

487
00:42:40,540 --> 00:42:44,860
other I think with these unbinds but here we are in this sort of oh here's a wee second

488
00:42:44,860 --> 00:42:49,500
it almost feels like we're in sort of Peter Cushing second film territory where it's like

489
00:42:50,380 --> 00:42:56,780
oh okay we're doing more of this are we but it's not the real thing but it's but neither

490
00:42:56,780 --> 00:43:03,140
is it doing something interesting with not being our universe's doctor so or interesting

491
00:43:03,140 --> 00:43:09,780
enough I don't think it warranted the return but I can see why Big Finish were tempted

492
00:43:09,780 --> 00:43:14,020
to go there again because because building was so good and Mark Black can write really

493
00:43:14,020 --> 00:43:21,060
well for him so yeah sorry if that all sounded a bit more negative than than than that might

494
00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:25,220
have been hoped for I feel bad saying all that to me because but I know you you know

495
00:43:25,220 --> 00:43:29,580
you hold your opinion your own opinion strongly so it's not like I'm going to sway that but

496
00:43:29,580 --> 00:43:35,260
yeah that's my take on it I'm less enamored of it I think than than the rest of yous.

497
00:43:35,260 --> 00:43:43,060
I think that it's I do understand what you're saying you know I understand that all mortality

498
00:43:43,060 --> 00:43:49,500
is just this wonderful wrapped up standalone thing and I think that if they'd have tried

499
00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:57,740
to do it again it wouldn't have worked for me this only works because it's a it's a different

500
00:43:57,740 --> 00:44:04,380
kind of story with a different kind of premise and it's simply taking the characters elsewhere

501
00:44:04,380 --> 00:44:09,500
I think that if we were doing a direct sequel I think if we were you know directly following

502
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:14,660
on or doing something even thematically similar to old mortality I think that it would let

503
00:44:14,660 --> 00:44:23,220
itself down I think that yeah it works because it just it reaches out to do something different

504
00:44:23,220 --> 00:44:32,860
and that's that's just my take on it well I think we'd better let Jimmy go now he's

505
00:44:32,860 --> 00:44:37,620
stayed up late to record this one because really wanted to cover those stories so a

506
00:44:37,620 --> 00:44:40,420
big big thank you for joining us Jimmy.

507
00:44:40,420 --> 00:44:44,220
Thanks for having me and I look forward to hearing your stuff on David Warner's Doctor

508
00:44:44,220 --> 00:44:48,940
because I do love his too I just didn't have the time to re-listen and do it justice so

509
00:44:48,940 --> 00:44:51,820
eager to hear your thoughts thanks and bye.

510
00:44:51,820 --> 00:44:58,820
Bye Jimmy we shall we shall soldier on and we'll discuss the two David Warner from the

511
00:44:58,820 --> 00:45:04,660
original sort of run of Unbounds as well and this is a bit of a different one because obviously

512
00:45:04,660 --> 00:45:10,860
David Warner went on to be pretty much a regular big Finnish doctor you know before he sadly

513
00:45:10,860 --> 00:45:19,100
passed away a few years ago and the stuff that with Bernie Summerfield is it's absolutely

514
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:23,020
wonderful we've covered it on this podcast before and no doubt we'll revisit again at

515
00:45:23,020 --> 00:45:32,780
some point as well it really is just such a fantastic run but I think that these two

516
00:45:32,780 --> 00:45:39,900
original Unbound stories kind of they do do their own thing they are very different and

517
00:45:39,900 --> 00:45:45,100
obviously the biggest most notable thing is that we have the Brigadier as the doctor's

518
00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:50,700
companion but this is an older Brigadier that never had the friendship with the doctor during

519
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:59,420
the 70s or is it 80s haha unit dating you know the third doctor's era there this is

520
00:45:59,420 --> 00:46:06,180
a Brigadier who was kind of disgraced and forced out and went to live a different life

521
00:46:06,180 --> 00:46:12,900
and the doctor kind of comes and plucks him out of that life and he becomes a proper companion

522
00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:18,540
a travelling in the TARDIS with the doctor companion at the end of the first story and

523
00:46:18,540 --> 00:46:24,620
I can see why they went straight in to do a second one so as I said Sympathy for the

524
00:46:24,620 --> 00:46:31,300
Devil is probably my favourite of all of these Unbounds it could arguably be my favourite

525
00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:39,220
Unbound altogether and I think that it really does offer something totally different and

526
00:46:39,220 --> 00:46:45,460
unique it's a setting that we wouldn't normally have it's a very very different doctor you

527
00:46:45,460 --> 00:46:52,580
know David Warner is supposed to be a version of the third doctor but very very different

528
00:46:52,580 --> 00:46:58,700
from Pertweez and we see sort of a streak of recklessness there and I know that there

529
00:46:58,700 --> 00:47:03,900
is you know the way the story progresses there is sort of a build up of kind of desperation

530
00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:13,140
and but in the end he kind of just leaves events to go very very wrong but he's a very

531
00:47:13,140 --> 00:47:19,860
good sort of slightly darker doctor and I don't think we get that slightly darker element

532
00:47:19,860 --> 00:47:24,540
as much when Bernice Summerfield joins him later on I think that's something that's pretty

533
00:47:24,540 --> 00:47:33,220
unique to this and perhaps Masters of War as well so yeah I think this is just a great

534
00:47:33,220 --> 00:47:39,500
release like I said earlier it really really it works hard to build up this really doomy

535
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:45,540
miserable something's going to go wrong almost ticking time bomb like atmosphere and I think

536
00:47:45,540 --> 00:47:53,100
it plays out really really well so Gareth I'll let you talk about Sympathy for the Devil

537
00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:59,340
thank you I would say it's quite a popular pick for favourite of the Unbounds at least

538
00:47:59,340 --> 00:48:04,780
from the comments I've seen but I think that makes total sense I think it straddles a good

539
00:48:04,780 --> 00:48:11,380
line between kind of fresh and weird characterization which is what you want from an Unbound but

540
00:48:11,380 --> 00:48:17,660
also a bit of continuity so it kind of uses continuity to to get you there and there are

541
00:48:17,660 --> 00:48:24,340
good examples of this you know everybody loves turn left that's very much an example of what

542
00:48:24,340 --> 00:48:30,060
if we snip the doctor out of this what happens the virgin novel Blood Heat I don't know if

543
00:48:30,060 --> 00:48:35,540
IW's read that one absolutely does this that's very much what happens if the doctor isn't

544
00:48:35,540 --> 00:48:43,620
around to help in that example of Silurian invasion so in this one it's it's basically

545
00:48:43,620 --> 00:48:49,540
just pole vaulting the entire poetry era just taking the doctor out of that and the result

546
00:48:49,540 --> 00:48:55,140
I think is just this incredibly angry story just where there are moments of just very

547
00:48:55,140 --> 00:49:02,420
cathartic kind of rage in it where the brigadier gets to just break down a little bit just at

548
00:49:02,420 --> 00:49:06,980
the fact that his men have tried so hard to kind of do all of this without the doctor's

549
00:49:06,980 --> 00:49:13,460
help and it's it's been too much you know they've had people die there's this well they've

550
00:49:13,460 --> 00:49:19,060
had more people than usual tie I should say but they had the invasion of the dinosaurs

551
00:49:19,060 --> 00:49:26,020
story for example where Mike Yates took his men back in time and just they're dead they're

552
00:49:26,020 --> 00:49:31,060
just gone and it's it's stuff like that kind of telling us just the absolute horror stories

553
00:49:31,060 --> 00:49:38,020
of how things would have gone and which is so kind of it's an interesting juxtaposition

554
00:49:38,020 --> 00:49:44,020
because when you say the words unit family doctor who wise to people the first thing

555
00:49:44,020 --> 00:49:48,780
that comes to mind for me is comfort you know because it's just oh what a nice cozy bunch

556
00:49:48,780 --> 00:49:53,740
of you know soldiers but in a nice way where they're all kind of very pleasant and they

557
00:49:53,740 --> 00:49:58,380
just have a cup of tea and you know shout occasionally but that's as bad as it gets

558
00:49:58,380 --> 00:50:03,340
and this is kind of just the the nightmare negative of that but it doesn't just extend

559
00:50:03,340 --> 00:50:10,740
to unit it's also to the master who is played by the mysterious Sam Giscard I don't know

560
00:50:10,740 --> 00:50:15,940
how far we go with that but um he's incredible and there's a great scene where he gets to

561
00:50:15,940 --> 00:50:21,860
just rip shreds off the doctor just because he's just raging at him because he's he's

562
00:50:21,860 --> 00:50:26,820
pretty much taking his place like he's ended up being stuck here for all of this time for

563
00:50:26,820 --> 00:50:32,220
kind of unrelated reasons um and he's just so angry because he knows that what kind of

564
00:50:32,220 --> 00:50:36,540
person the doctor is and from his perspective the doctor basically phoned it in and didn't

565
00:50:36,540 --> 00:50:43,060
help um so that's all incredible it's great to see the brigadier kind of put into this

566
00:50:43,060 --> 00:50:48,700
position where he's older he's wiser and again it's a little bit of a Susan thing where you

567
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:54,300
know we we sort of don't really see the brigadier out of the context of his original conception

568
00:50:54,300 --> 00:51:01,260
but um in this one he gets to be you know kind of weary and he just wants to live and

569
00:51:01,260 --> 00:51:06,860
he's trying to cope with all of this misery that's happened to him um and the master has

570
00:51:06,860 --> 00:51:13,940
that as well strangely but um one thing that i find a little bit odd about it is that um

571
00:51:13,940 --> 00:51:21,420
it's it's sort of um almost trivial that things have gone this wrong so it you know correct

572
00:51:21,420 --> 00:51:24,460
me if i'm wrong i mean i've heard it a bunch of times over the years and hopefully might

573
00:51:24,460 --> 00:51:29,100
be wrong but i think it's the case that the time lord's just they happened to make him

574
00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:35,500
david warner doctor instead of john perchley so that's one thing but they happened to land

575
00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:43,580
him in um decades too late uh they just picked a date and they went there we go that's where

576
00:51:43,580 --> 00:51:49,860
you're going um and that's the that's the critical choice here i believe it's just kind

577
00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:56,220
of a a mix-up of scheduling of and that's enough because it's i think the implication

578
00:51:56,220 --> 00:52:01,020
is just like look earth is always getting hammered by aliens and whatnot but for that

579
00:52:01,020 --> 00:52:06,860
10 year period oh it really they really got it and they really needed the doctor at that

580
00:52:06,860 --> 00:52:13,460
point in history so you know maybe what to take away from that is that uh you know some

581
00:52:13,460 --> 00:52:18,940
time lord in the war games looked at human history and went oh my god have you seen this

582
00:52:18,940 --> 00:52:24,580
stretch of like the 70s or the 80s it's just one invasion after another we need that's

583
00:52:24,580 --> 00:52:29,760
where you send him and in this version of events that guy just wasn't wasn't in that

584
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:35,340
day so they just went oh let's just chuck him in 1996 um or sorry i don't remember what

585
00:52:35,340 --> 00:52:43,780
year it was around like 90s the handover um so yeah you get this doctor who kind of he

586
00:52:43,780 --> 00:52:49,580
feels and obviously it goes without saying but we'll say obviously david warner is just

587
00:52:49,580 --> 00:52:54,940
astonishing in this i mean it's very much uh you know where where has he been like why

588
00:52:54,940 --> 00:53:01,180
has he never done it um he's he's this he really feels like he's making up for lost

589
00:53:01,180 --> 00:53:07,340
time uh which i think is a little bit kind of meta in context because as a character

590
00:53:07,340 --> 00:53:12,980
he's not so as a character he's just turned up and he's like right okay this is all a

591
00:53:12,980 --> 00:53:18,020
bit rubbish isn't it but um hey ho this is this is where i'm here so i feel like the

592
00:53:18,020 --> 00:53:24,540
way the character is written and performed is a little bit like the doctor has sort of

593
00:53:24,540 --> 00:53:28,780
knowingly missed out it almost follows on from old mortality in a way because in that

594
00:53:28,780 --> 00:53:34,220
one he's he's prevented from starting his adventures in this one he's for some reason

595
00:53:34,220 --> 00:53:38,900
been prevented from having literal adventures and and dropped off too late to take part

596
00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:44,180
in them but yeah he becomes this just i think whirling dervish is the phrase he's just this

597
00:53:44,180 --> 00:53:49,980
this tornado of just activity and i think that comes to define him uh through the rest

598
00:53:49,980 --> 00:53:53,660
of his adventures and and you know like we were saying about wouldn't it be nice if we

599
00:53:53,660 --> 00:54:00,860
got some jeffrey belden we are dementedly lucky to have got just an entire range of

600
00:54:00,860 --> 00:54:07,100
of david warner and like you were saying about um how that darkness doesn't doesn't continue

601
00:54:07,100 --> 00:54:13,100
um i think it's there i don't think it's there as much as it is in this one because you know

602
00:54:13,100 --> 00:54:17,100
characters including the master and like how bad are things if the master is saying this

603
00:54:17,100 --> 00:54:22,300
stuff but characters are saying to the doctor you know like it or not this is kind of on you

604
00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:27,740
um there are stories later on where we get to see shades of that i mean the the one that jumps to

605
00:54:27,740 --> 00:54:35,180
mind is planet x which is in that first uh set with bernice where i think he gets into a situation

606
00:54:35,180 --> 00:54:40,860
where um he's he's sort of gassing the baddie or something he's he's putting the baddie into

607
00:54:40,860 --> 00:54:45,660
this situation like a torture chair or something that they put him in it didn't work on him because

608
00:54:45,660 --> 00:54:51,580
he's a time lord and he ends up in a situation where he's like well i don't have to save you

609
00:54:51,580 --> 00:54:59,580
and that moments like that you kind of go oh this this guy's a bit different um and yeah i do think

610
00:54:59,580 --> 00:55:05,020
you see that in this one because he's just faced with such absolute carnage that he just has to go

611
00:55:05,820 --> 00:55:12,140
right well we've we've just got to do what we can this is a triage situation i can't make this

612
00:55:12,140 --> 00:55:18,780
perfect so yeah i think it's it's a very exciting story there's a lot going on there's plenty of

613
00:55:18,780 --> 00:55:26,540
kind of fun little continuity nods for the fanboys um you know uh literally like the mind of evil

614
00:55:26,540 --> 00:55:32,620
figures quite heavily into this one and the fact that the master is in it at all i think is is

615
00:55:32,620 --> 00:55:38,620
quite a big deal the master regenerates in it that's a rarity i mean i suppose that gets us out of the

616
00:55:38,620 --> 00:55:46,060
the roger del gardo problem but um yeah i think it's i think it's a tremendous story uh it's just

617
00:55:46,060 --> 00:55:52,940
really exciting uh it's a great kind of guilty pleasure in the sense of you get to see the mess

618
00:55:52,940 --> 00:55:58,860
that would be made and uh normally that's undone so like the examples that come to mind apart from

619
00:55:58,860 --> 00:56:06,140
like blood heat mentioned earlier um the movie x-men days of future past uh and probably presumably

620
00:56:06,140 --> 00:56:11,260
the comic i've not read the original comic but um you get to see multiple scenarios where the good

621
00:56:11,260 --> 00:56:16,700
guys are just murdered right and they they are trying to defeat these monsters and they just

622
00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:21,740
can't and they fail and they fail and they fail and eventually they fix it which they don't hear

623
00:56:21,740 --> 00:56:28,220
um but in that case you still get to kind of this is the worst case scenario i never get to see this

624
00:56:28,220 --> 00:56:35,420
because that's what that's what the doctor's for right so it's in a in a really grim way it's kind

625
00:56:35,420 --> 00:56:42,300
of a treat to sort of go how bad do things get i've always wanted to know um yeah and i think

626
00:56:42,300 --> 00:56:48,380
that's where we get to with sympathy for the devil i think it's a very different sort of treat to old

627
00:56:48,380 --> 00:56:55,180
mortality but no less a treat i have to admit this was only sort of partially through design

628
00:56:55,180 --> 00:57:00,700
partially coincidentally this was actually the story i chose to listen to on the 60th anniversary

629
00:57:00,700 --> 00:57:05,740
i was sort of at a bit of a loose end as what to do and i know some people had done marathons and

630
00:57:05,740 --> 00:57:11,100
planned things and i always said i would and never did and then just on the day i thought what am i

631
00:57:11,100 --> 00:57:17,740
going to listen to and had a playlist that was effectively the complete david warner doctor

632
00:57:17,740 --> 00:57:24,140
lined up to go so let's start that then and obviously this is this is where that started

633
00:57:24,140 --> 00:57:31,020
and it was a really good choice it was a really interesting listen in you know the context of

634
00:57:31,020 --> 00:57:36,060
celebrating doctor who and i think that's because i mean you've hit the nail on the head it is kind

635
00:57:36,060 --> 00:57:41,500
of the ultimate what happens when the doctor's not about story and i think it does do a better job

636
00:57:41,500 --> 00:57:49,100
than turn left or other things that have explored the idea and i just think it's excellent i just

637
00:57:49,100 --> 00:57:56,620
want to say that i'm i'm not turn left's biggest fan i think this one does a really good job of

638
00:57:56,620 --> 00:58:02,220
showing you the survivors we hear from you know the brigadier is critical to that and i don't feel

639
00:58:02,220 --> 00:58:06,620
i don't think that's turn left's job really but but yeah absolutely that's that's something that's

640
00:58:06,620 --> 00:58:14,220
really strong here yeah and of course um week week before before i move on and uh let mark have his

641
00:58:14,220 --> 00:58:19,820
say got to mention that david tenants in it and is brilliant as a really really thoroughly

642
00:58:20,940 --> 00:58:28,140
unpleasant angry character who every single decision he makes just seems to drag the situation

643
00:58:28,140 --> 00:58:35,660
into worse and worse territory it's really nice alternative sort of david tenant performance in

644
00:58:35,660 --> 00:58:41,740
a doctor who production and uh i think the same character comes back in unit well this are our

645
00:58:41,740 --> 00:58:47,740
universities version of the character if i remember correctly anyway mark talked to us about sympathy

646
00:58:47,740 --> 00:58:53,900
for the devil yeah it's funny you mentioned um david tenant there because um because this was

647
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:59,020
before david tenant was david tenant and because i listened to it when it came out this was back

648
00:58:59,020 --> 00:59:04,940
in the days when i could keep up with big finishes release schedule um i i had this image in my head

649
00:59:04,940 --> 00:59:10,540
of this guy as a big like burly red headed sort of scotsman you know and now that i know it's

650
00:59:10,540 --> 00:59:15,580
david tenant i i still can't get rid of that original impression of who colonel rick brimacom

651
00:59:15,580 --> 00:59:20,540
wood is and how he how he looks you know so there's nothing of david tenant about him to this day

652
00:59:20,540 --> 00:59:25,740
even you know what even when i re-listen to the story i know it's him i can only see this guy you

653
00:59:25,740 --> 00:59:31,900
know um which shows you how how um you know what an evident impression the story made on

654
00:59:31,900 --> 00:59:39,580
your first time around um i think that phrase you hit on gareth to do with cathartic rage um

655
00:59:39,580 --> 00:59:45,100
um absolutely hits the nail on the head this that that's the kind of fulcrum around which this thing

656
00:59:45,100 --> 00:59:50,780
turns it's like where did the where did the scocosi barry let's side of the part we hear

657
00:59:50,780 --> 00:59:56,460
ago if this is our alternative part we and i guess if it's anywhere it's in the sort of um

658
00:59:57,500 --> 01:00:01,900
you know zen philosophy or whatever of the of the monks of the monastery you know it's kind of

659
01:00:01,900 --> 01:00:07,900
it's kind of all over there and everything else out in the world is just nasty and brutal and um

660
01:00:07,900 --> 01:00:13,340
um in terms of i hadn't really thought about what what you raised there in terms of well why did the

661
01:00:13,340 --> 01:00:19,420
time lord put him make him arrive late as it were when all this other stuff could have been

662
01:00:19,420 --> 01:00:24,620
tackled since that was the whole point of him going there and it suddenly occurs to me well maybe

663
01:00:25,660 --> 01:00:32,700
as they knew the master was marooned on earth anyway they probably unwisely thought well he can

664
01:00:32,700 --> 01:00:44,140
he can sort of hold hold the line here you know um and uh he he did a you know the inevitably botched

665
01:00:44,140 --> 01:00:49,260
job with that the master would because he's not bringing the doctor's kind of moral certainties

666
01:00:49,260 --> 01:00:59,420
to it um and and i think that the that obviously left the master a very um you know vulnerable

667
01:00:59,420 --> 01:01:03,580
position and the rage that's built up in him around all of that having to be the guy that held the

668
01:01:03,580 --> 01:01:10,220
line imperfectly um or more even more imperfectly than the doctor would do the scene that i

669
01:01:11,260 --> 01:01:15,660
always end up playing over and over again like i'll skip back as soon as i've heard it and listen to

670
01:01:15,660 --> 01:01:21,340
it about five times over is the one where he and the doctor have that real confrontation where it

671
01:01:21,340 --> 01:01:27,020
starts off with going oh you know like chairman ma spoke ever so highly of you and the doctor's

672
01:01:27,020 --> 01:01:31,420
going well he's all he's on the defensive and he's going but what i knew he was a librarian and

673
01:01:31,420 --> 01:01:37,740
and all this stuff it's it's brilliant and then um it gets to this point where the where where the

674
01:01:37,740 --> 01:01:42,940
doctor says look i haven't been here since the 1960s and and the master goes yeah it shows

675
01:01:43,740 --> 01:01:51,180
and um there's just something in that moment that just feels absolutely central to the thing and

676
01:01:51,180 --> 01:01:55,100
that those moments at the end where it is all going to hell you know the doctor's sort of

677
01:01:55,100 --> 01:02:01,020
fix things up to a point but then as you said johnson he's quite happy to sort of sail off

678
01:02:01,020 --> 01:02:07,660
and leave a lot of stuff still kicking off including you know that whole you know the

679
01:02:07,660 --> 01:02:15,900
helicopters at the harbor at midnight and all that and um and so so there's a lot of um tension left

680
01:02:15,900 --> 01:02:22,060
at the end and it really does feel very high stakes you know it's really quite um scary you

681
01:02:22,060 --> 01:02:30,700
know quite quite tense um i think warner's performance is is excellent i find him much more

682
01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:36,700
arresting in terms of his performance in in this one than i than i later did in masters of war

683
01:02:36,700 --> 01:02:43,500
which i only heard for the first time recently um but nevertheless he he never warner never

684
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:47,020
phones it in i know he loved working for big finish so he would have turned up to do the

685
01:02:47,020 --> 01:02:51,100
smallest bit part or the biggest part whatever they asked him to do he would just turn up because

686
01:02:51,100 --> 01:02:58,060
he loved he loved being there and we were very lucky that he did um can i just i should probably

687
01:02:58,060 --> 01:03:07,980
just wrap up you know uh my little spiel here because i'm not sure i can um i think you and

688
01:03:07,980 --> 01:03:13,900
you johnson and gareth between you have very uh comprehensively uh and articulately covered

689
01:03:15,180 --> 01:03:19,580
many of the facets of the story that make it work um so i'm just going to say something quite

690
01:03:19,580 --> 01:03:28,860
frivolous at this point and to say um and i like that they got they used a rolling stones song

691
01:03:28,860 --> 01:03:34,620
title there for the the the story title sympathy for the devil but then they also managed to

692
01:03:34,620 --> 01:03:41,020
squeeze a lyric into the actual dialogue which is um at one point the brigadier says what is it

693
01:03:41,020 --> 01:03:46,460
you're still trying to puzzle out here and the doctor goes the nature of his game brigadier

694
01:03:46,460 --> 01:03:53,180
the nature of his game and and i thought oh that's that's from the song he's got that in

695
01:03:53,180 --> 01:03:59,180
so um it's johson clements isn't it the root that one anyway i think um if i haven't misremembered

696
01:03:59,180 --> 01:04:03,740
but anyway i thought that was that was very well done crowbarring that in without making it seem

697
01:04:03,740 --> 01:04:11,100
to oh and sorry one final thing i remember hearing that um originally there was a line in the script

698
01:04:11,100 --> 01:04:20,300
that uh the brigadier in the pub working in the pub was to have said um chap a table three there

699
01:04:20,300 --> 01:04:26,540
five rounds rapid and um i'm not sure whether to be disappointed or relieved that they removed that

700
01:04:26,540 --> 01:04:33,660
but uh it would have been quite something to hear um so anyway that's my my take on on sympathy for

701
01:04:33,660 --> 01:04:42,540
the devil so have to admit i'm glad that line never made it in i absolutely love the you know

702
01:04:42,540 --> 01:04:48,060
the reference to the song the nature of his game i do think that is so brilliantly worked in but um

703
01:04:48,620 --> 01:04:55,740
no we we don't need to have the brigadier save five rounds rapid at every opportunity um but yeah

704
01:04:55,740 --> 01:05:01,340
it's it really is a wonderful little story and it's one that i always love revisiting and i

705
01:05:01,340 --> 01:05:08,700
i don't have anything negative really to say about it it's just i think it is a completely unique

706
01:05:08,700 --> 01:05:15,580
doctor who story in terms of the way it examines the impact the doctor has or doesn't have when

707
01:05:15,580 --> 01:05:23,660
he's not there and the way it just handles this constant feeling of foreboding it is

708
01:05:24,220 --> 01:05:28,460
i know it's a bit of a cliche to say it but it's like watching a car crash in slow motion

709
01:05:28,460 --> 01:05:35,740
um and it's just so beautifully done um and let's move on then let's move on to masters of war which

710
01:05:35,740 --> 01:05:43,900
is this doctor getting to meet the daleks and davros and um it's it all going wrong there as

711
01:05:43,900 --> 01:05:53,340
well um this is another another sort of fun and interesting story with lots of interesting ideas

712
01:05:53,340 --> 01:06:02,140
and it's doing something different again it's not just coming up with sympathy for the devil too it

713
01:06:02,140 --> 01:06:08,540
is taking this doctor and this brigadier who are now at hardist team into a totally different

714
01:06:08,540 --> 01:06:17,580
situation and uh i think it does a good job of you know examining daleks and davros and their

715
01:06:17,580 --> 01:06:24,700
ever-changing and weird relationship um and it it sort of has the breathing space to do it

716
01:06:25,500 --> 01:06:30,300
very differently and i think that what really really does work well here is the fact that

717
01:06:31,180 --> 01:06:37,260
david warner's the third doctor and from what we can tell the first and second doctor happened

718
01:06:37,260 --> 01:06:43,820
pretty much the same way in this universe as they did in ours so that that continuity's there

719
01:06:43,820 --> 01:06:50,620
um and i think that's an interesting sandpit to play in and again actually one that i'm fairly

720
01:06:50,620 --> 01:06:58,860
disappointed never really gets used in the bernice summerfield stories with this doctor

721
01:06:59,820 --> 01:07:03,180
um so talk to us about masters of war gareth

722
01:07:04,860 --> 01:07:10,460
um yeah well i'll just start off by saying that's that's a good point um strangely it doesn't come

723
01:07:10,460 --> 01:07:17,420
up a great deal in in future releases that this doctor is canonically the doctor from before

724
01:07:17,820 --> 01:07:22,220
he just had some different experiences after a certain point but hey ho that's another time

725
01:07:22,700 --> 01:07:28,940
um masters of war i think is like we were saying about storm of angels or i was saying that it

726
01:07:28,940 --> 01:07:36,060
feels like kind of uh it'd be nice to do another one of these so let's do that um in the nicest way

727
01:07:36,060 --> 01:07:43,020
um in the nicest way i think this is kind of the apotheosis of that like i do not dislike this

728
01:07:43,020 --> 01:07:50,140
story at all i have a tremendous time with this i find listening to it is like the audio equivalent

729
01:07:50,140 --> 01:07:57,420
of a really lovely burger and chips right it's it's it's probably not going to be considered

730
01:07:57,420 --> 01:08:05,900
sort of a highly complex uh or a completely off the wall story which within the bounds of unbound

731
01:08:05,900 --> 01:08:12,780
is arguably not a problem but you know not ideal but i really feel like they kind of go right we've

732
01:08:12,780 --> 01:08:17,340
got this set up now we've got the warner doctor we've got the brigadier as a companion full time

733
01:08:17,900 --> 01:08:23,900
um what's the what's the thing what do you do with them what's the you get one more go at this what

734
01:08:23,900 --> 01:08:30,620
do you do and to be honest i think sticking them on scarow having them fight a bunch of daleks i

735
01:08:30,620 --> 01:08:35,660
i can think of worse answers than that i think that's very solid um the story we get you know

736
01:08:35,660 --> 01:08:41,820
you get to have the doctor doing his kind of tornado of activity trying to catch up and i

737
01:08:41,820 --> 01:08:47,180
think the brigadier even vocalizes that like oh it's like he's making up for lost time um and so

738
01:08:47,180 --> 01:08:54,620
he just immediately gets stuck in in this kind of awful situation on scarow um and uh yeah he

739
01:08:54,620 --> 01:08:59,820
he supports the thals and he he sees there's this situation with the daleks he makes some assumptions

740
01:08:59,820 --> 01:09:05,740
and he kind of goes right well this is terrible got to fix this and um yeah he gets he gets stuck

741
01:09:05,740 --> 01:09:10,780
in and the brigadier gets to use his military expertise and we get to see a slightly different

742
01:09:10,780 --> 01:09:19,180
side of the daleks and i think by by kind of this point in the sort of big finish run we're seeing

743
01:09:19,180 --> 01:09:23,420
um a couple of those callbacks because it was it was brought up on a previous release we were

744
01:09:23,420 --> 01:09:28,700
talking about here the um one release kind of felt like it was sort of accidentally calling

745
01:09:28,700 --> 01:09:34,220
forwards to to doctor who this one i feel like it's kind of accidentally calling back to other big

746
01:09:34,220 --> 01:09:41,980
finishes so i feel like there are notes in here like uh the daleks being posited as we know they're

747
01:09:41,980 --> 01:09:47,500
awful we we all agree they're awful they're terrible but maybe there's something worse um

748
01:09:48,220 --> 01:09:54,300
that is something that is very satisfying to do you know i'm a big fan of star trek voyager i was

749
01:09:54,300 --> 01:09:59,820
very excited when they came along and said here is something worse than the borg i'm here all day

750
01:09:59,820 --> 01:10:05,180
for that kind of thing um but big finish kind of did that with the mutant phase

751
01:10:06,220 --> 01:10:11,820
um i think they later on would do it with uh enemy of the daleks i think they kind of did it with

752
01:10:11,820 --> 01:10:17,420
dalek empire i mean in that case it was literally other daleks from from another universe but it's

753
01:10:17,420 --> 01:10:23,500
it's that kind of sweet spot of going we're going to find something so dreadful that it sort of puts

754
01:10:23,500 --> 01:10:31,340
the daleks in context so um i'm not complaining i i really enjoy that but at the same time it's i

755
01:10:31,340 --> 01:10:36,860
think i don't really know what the process was to come up with this story but it feels as though

756
01:10:37,420 --> 01:10:42,140
we're kind of not having an unbound we're kind of having another go at something that we've already

757
01:10:42,140 --> 01:10:48,140
had and that's where like the the sort of term victory lap really comes to mind for me um

758
01:10:48,140 --> 01:10:56,380
um in the moment it's it's still tremendously satisfying to me to uh to have warner uh and the

759
01:10:56,380 --> 01:11:01,420
brigadier you know the brigadier really getting to uh exercise his kind of general muscles that he's

760
01:11:01,420 --> 01:11:09,340
never uh you know he never really got that far in doctor who obviously he's a brigadier um but he

761
01:11:09,340 --> 01:11:14,700
gets to command whole armies and you know he gets to make you know huge strategic decisions and stuff

762
01:11:14,700 --> 01:11:21,100
like that so you you have these huge space well i suppose sky battles is more appropriate but you

763
01:11:21,100 --> 01:11:27,740
have these enormous battles going on so there's tons of action tons of excitement um i suppose

764
01:11:27,740 --> 01:11:38,540
one note that is um not perfect is the the bad guys um the worst guys i should say uh they are

765
01:11:38,540 --> 01:11:46,140
called the quatch and maybe i have an infantile sense of humor but that sounds like uh another

766
01:11:46,140 --> 01:11:51,580
word you know said in a slightly silly way so every time somebody says that and you know what

767
01:11:51,580 --> 01:11:57,740
i think the reason i feel that way is because david warner was in the series nebulous i don't

768
01:11:57,740 --> 01:12:04,700
know if either of you has ever heard that mark gaitis is in it is an incredibly funny um kind of

769
01:12:04,700 --> 01:12:12,540
loosely quatermass uh riff and it's set on this uh future earth where you've got a scientist working

770
01:12:12,540 --> 01:12:19,660
in a in a kind of laundrette who has to solve tiny little weird crises anyway his nemesis is played

771
01:12:19,660 --> 01:12:26,620
by david warner and in the first episode i think there's this uh evil sentient cactus and i think

772
01:12:26,620 --> 01:12:33,420
it's called quimp um so yeah it's just a silly little convergence but that i couldn't help

773
01:12:33,420 --> 01:12:39,660
thinking of that every time and also you've got the kind of production question of uh how do you

774
01:12:39,660 --> 01:12:43,980
approach a monster that is not daleks right it's going to be worse than darlix but it's got to be

775
01:12:43,980 --> 01:12:49,020
completely not darlix you can't do like cybermen where you just go here's a different robot voice

776
01:12:49,020 --> 01:12:58,060
so you have this kind of reedy voice this kind of hair strange kind of uh odd you know not quite

777
01:12:58,060 --> 01:13:04,860
their ethereal sound and um i totally understand why they made that choice again you've got to come

778
01:13:04,860 --> 01:13:13,100
up with a not darlick um but i don't know how effective it was kind of in the moment um you

779
01:13:13,100 --> 01:13:18,140
know it's it's a bit of a silly voice but i mean it's doctor who you have to kind of accept that

780
01:13:18,140 --> 01:13:23,820
sometimes you've got monsters that have got you know a breadth of of voices i've not even mentioned

781
01:13:23,820 --> 01:13:30,780
davros he's in this uh technically i think he's in it twice um terry mulloy i think has just you know

782
01:13:30,780 --> 01:13:36,860
long since kind of seized the the davros crown you know we all we all love michael wisher but

783
01:13:36,860 --> 01:13:43,260
terry mulloy is really excuse me he's really put in the hours um and in this you know you get to see

784
01:13:43,260 --> 01:13:51,820
a davros who's um i would not say benevolent but trying to kind of exercise his ideas in a more

785
01:13:51,820 --> 01:13:58,700
like pragmatic way um and obviously he has fallen in with the quatch so he's kind of working with

786
01:13:58,700 --> 01:14:05,180
them um and he reaches kind of a an interestingly cathartic moment when

787
01:14:05,980 --> 01:14:12,540
you know he realizes that they they are responsible in this universe for his you know his condition um

788
01:14:14,060 --> 01:14:19,660
and yeah you know i i really enjoy his performance in this um so overall i mean it's

789
01:14:19,660 --> 01:14:25,660
it's like an action movie you know it's like a really good uh good time at the movies kind of

790
01:14:25,660 --> 01:14:32,780
thing i would absolutely recommend it you know i think it is a fun listen but um i think you can

791
01:14:32,780 --> 01:14:40,620
kind of feel the what-if range uh hopefully not permanently but in the moment had kind of petered

792
01:14:40,620 --> 01:14:47,260
out a bit because it doesn't really feel like it has an individual what-if to offer to me anyway

793
01:14:47,260 --> 01:14:54,220
it's very much a what if we carried on this one and just you know did a dalek story it's a really

794
01:14:54,220 --> 01:14:59,580
good one but yeah that's where i land on it it's it's a good time i'm glad we got it i'm even more

795
01:14:59,580 --> 01:15:09,740
glad it led to more stuff um but yeah it's it's more fun than it is interesting i would say

796
01:15:10,540 --> 01:15:15,980
yeah i think you're right i think essentially i think the what-if is what if we stuck the daleks

797
01:15:15,980 --> 01:15:25,820
into the unbound range which has has mileage but um i i'd rather have seen something else and

798
01:15:25,820 --> 01:15:30,300
i'd rather have seen something you know how said storm of angels works really well because it's

799
01:15:30,300 --> 01:15:37,500
so different to all mortality i think actually i'd have preferred something closer here to uh

800
01:15:37,500 --> 01:15:42,940
sympathy for the devil but but we can't have it all um it's it's still a good story though it's

801
01:15:42,940 --> 01:15:49,100
still a good release it does it still asks questions i just i agree with you the questions

802
01:15:49,100 --> 01:15:55,500
aren't quite as interesting or thought-provoking as everything else in the range uh mark what do

803
01:15:55,500 --> 01:16:02,860
you think of masters of masters of war yeah well i'll try not to repeat any points already made

804
01:16:02,860 --> 01:16:08,700
but i think it is you know i would echo that um feeling about it when i listened to it uh

805
01:16:08,700 --> 01:16:14,860
i i only got to it do you know i actually bought masters of war on the cd when it first came out

806
01:16:14,860 --> 01:16:22,140
what year was that years and years ago now right and for some reason 2008 2008 that's when i bought

807
01:16:22,140 --> 01:16:29,980
it yeah and literally i've only listened to it in the last month so it could be the longest gap

808
01:16:29,980 --> 01:16:34,540
between a purchase and a listen that i've ever and i think what happened was in 2008 i started

809
01:16:34,540 --> 01:16:42,220
listening to it the first i don't know 10 minutes of it and it just wasn't it just wasn't doing it

810
01:16:42,220 --> 01:16:46,220
for me and i thought i'll put that to one side listen to something else come back to it never

811
01:16:46,220 --> 01:16:54,780
did until just now and i think it was that thing of oh so it's unbound like because to me up to

812
01:16:54,780 --> 01:17:01,020
the up to that point every single unbound had been doing a thing you know a very clear and obvious

813
01:17:01,020 --> 01:17:08,300
thing and that thing was interesting and contrastive and a proper what-if twist usually on the doctor

814
01:17:08,300 --> 01:17:13,980
specifically you know like a doctor that believes you know the end justifies the means or whatever

815
01:17:13,980 --> 01:17:20,220
it might be um whereas this thing seemed to be going okay we are just carrying on with the

816
01:17:20,220 --> 01:17:25,500
brigadier and the doctor oh now we're on scar oh i see what we're doing it's as though terry nation

817
01:17:25,500 --> 01:17:32,620
had turned in the 15th slide variation on this original idea okay let's see where this goes does

818
01:17:32,620 --> 01:17:40,060
it become at any point any more interesting than this um i i was halfway through at this time and

819
01:17:40,060 --> 01:17:44,300
beginning to lose hope that it would go anywhere interesting because it did feel very much like

820
01:17:44,300 --> 01:17:49,980
just a generic retry it could almost have been written by terry nation or nicholas breaks or

821
01:17:49,980 --> 01:17:57,020
somebody who who loves those tropes you know and um then it started doing some interesting things

822
01:17:57,020 --> 01:18:01,260
in the second half and i thought ah now i see the point the point was to sort of set it up

823
01:18:01,980 --> 01:18:08,780
very conventionally and then have a few twists towards the end where you go right okay the

824
01:18:08,780 --> 01:18:15,260
daleks are not as straightforward are not they don't they're a bit more morally complex here than

825
01:18:15,260 --> 01:18:21,660
they have been traditionally that's interesting there is the quatch which is this um the real bad

826
01:18:21,660 --> 01:18:28,620
guys of the piece if you like you've got davros having thrown his allegiance in with a completely

827
01:18:28,620 --> 01:18:35,420
different species but he's bet the wrong horse um and then the doctor becoming a sort of a um

828
01:18:37,260 --> 01:18:43,740
almost forging with hit with with davros one of those like it's almost like what it's almost

829
01:18:43,740 --> 01:18:49,420
like the terror of the auton scenario where he has his first encounter with his new nemesis his new

830
01:18:49,420 --> 01:18:54,860
regular nemesis but they end up teaming forces on day one you know they end up joining forces to

831
01:18:54,860 --> 01:19:00,860
defeat a common enemy um and davros gets that moment and a moment of self-sacrifice into the

832
01:19:00,860 --> 01:19:07,820
bargain so all those things are interesting somewhat innovative and i should have trusted

833
01:19:07,820 --> 01:19:12,380
eddie robson to deliver something like that in the first place rather than lose faith on him

834
01:19:12,380 --> 01:19:17,500
um too early because i've always found him a very interesting writing writer and a very compelling

835
01:19:17,500 --> 01:19:26,540
writer nevertheless in terms of those earlier stories having done a thing this felt like it

836
01:19:26,540 --> 01:19:31,980
was doing like i kept reaching the moment they've gone oh is this the thing but that's not really

837
01:19:31,980 --> 01:19:36,620
that feels like a small thing i mean that could almost happen in just ordinary an ordinary doctor

838
01:19:36,620 --> 01:19:43,660
history where you can take that particular twist on the idea um so like it almost became like oh

839
01:19:43,660 --> 01:19:48,620
is the brigadier's thing you know where he he chooses a place to stay because it's like okay

840
01:19:48,620 --> 01:19:54,700
the moral is here's a universe here's a universe in which the brigadier found his calling somewhere

841
01:19:54,700 --> 01:20:01,100
other than earth and decided just to make the best of of somewhere because you know you will

842
01:20:01,100 --> 01:20:04,860
never end up in the perfect place you always have to make the best of what you know at some point

843
01:20:04,860 --> 01:20:10,380
you have to choose and but but again like any of these things could have come up in in

844
01:20:12,060 --> 01:20:18,460
the prime doctor who universe as it were and it's like okay well all of that's a bit less satisfying

845
01:20:18,460 --> 01:20:28,780
than what we got in those other stories um did i enjoy it less so than most of the well no

846
01:20:28,780 --> 01:20:33,260
it's definitely not the worst of the bunch but it's it sits firmly in the the middle or somewhere in

847
01:20:33,260 --> 01:20:40,940
the bottom the bottom half of the overall imbalance for me um i didn't find warner's

848
01:20:40,940 --> 01:20:45,500
performance as compelling in this one it did feel at times as though he was just reading the lines

849
01:20:45,500 --> 01:20:52,460
and that's unusual for him um but and other people might disagree strongly with that and say no he's

850
01:20:52,460 --> 01:20:56,060
never done that in his life but in this one i just felt there were a couple of moments where i thought

851
01:20:56,060 --> 01:21:01,580
he's he's just reading the lines to get to get to lunchtime there you know um because there's nothing

852
01:21:01,580 --> 01:21:07,820
of particular interest in those few initial scenes but i think as it gets into that second half it

853
01:21:07,820 --> 01:21:15,340
finds its feet it does a few interesting things but those things yeah they they just abide around

854
01:21:15,340 --> 01:21:24,220
the unbound um uh what do you call it categorization they they warrant a place in the other half of the

855
01:21:24,220 --> 01:21:30,060
they they warrant a place in the unbound in the unbound universe of universes but um

856
01:21:32,540 --> 01:21:38,860
just only just whereas the others i feel very clearly fit the mold of what the the original

857
01:21:38,860 --> 01:21:48,700
brief was so um yeah it's it's a bit of a mid one for me as i believe the young people say mid um so

858
01:21:48,700 --> 01:21:54,860
uh well you know entertaining enough i'll not be rushing back to it um whereas i'll go back to

859
01:21:54,860 --> 01:21:59,660
sympathy any number of times and i'll go back to old mortality in any number of times but masters

860
01:21:59,660 --> 01:22:05,820
of war it could be it could it could be another 15 years if spared before i go back to that one again

861
01:22:05,820 --> 01:22:08,620
so yeah

862
01:22:11,340 --> 01:22:16,300
i'd be tempted to pick it up again in another podcast soon just to make you listen to it again

863
01:22:16,300 --> 01:22:19,340
i feel as though we've inspired you

864
01:22:22,060 --> 01:22:29,820
um but yeah i i totally get what you mean it just it is a bit of a marmite story i've

865
01:22:30,860 --> 01:22:35,180
but maybe no maybe it's not a marmite story marmite is you love it or you hate it whereas i think

866
01:22:35,180 --> 01:22:41,260
you've you've sort of summed it up it's just it's middle ground isn't it it's people people seem to

867
01:22:41,260 --> 01:22:47,340
think it's okay or not that great i've never met anybody have a really really sort of passionate

868
01:22:47,340 --> 01:22:52,540
opinion about oh it's absolutely amazing it's one of the best or it's absolutely dreadful

869
01:22:53,740 --> 01:23:01,580
um but it it exists i'm glad it exists it's more nicholas courtney and i will take it based on that

870
01:23:01,580 --> 01:23:06,780
if absolutely nothing else at all it is more nicholas courtney a big finish of which we

871
01:23:06,780 --> 01:23:12,380
definitely definitely never had enough that's true that's absolutely true yeah more nick is always

872
01:23:12,380 --> 01:23:18,060
was always very welcome and um that's very sad we've lost him and look john colshaw does a very

873
01:23:19,180 --> 01:23:23,420
uh good brigadier well very good young brigadier anyway i'm not sure if he necessarily always

874
01:23:23,420 --> 01:23:30,060
captures the older voice but um but yeah uh you can't beat nicholas courtney being nicholas

875
01:23:30,060 --> 01:23:36,780
courtney and it's um it's a shame we didn't get even more of him but um we're lucky to have had

876
01:23:36,780 --> 01:23:41,980
what we did have in terms of um just one further thing just what you were saying gareth about the

877
01:23:41,980 --> 01:23:48,380
voices of the quatch that really tried my patience as well and it's not so much the silliness of the

878
01:23:48,380 --> 01:23:53,740
voices because as you say dr who you're going to get the odd silly voice it's um i'm conscious of

879
01:23:53,740 --> 01:24:02,780
my own silly voice as i'm saying this but um it's it's silly voice combined with taking forever to

880
01:24:02,780 --> 01:24:08,140
say something that can really you know that's not like it could be like neil's on a blackboard to me

881
01:24:08,140 --> 01:24:15,020
sometimes in terms of listening to a story you know and um they really did considering they were

882
01:24:15,020 --> 01:24:21,820
you know in a battle situation whatever the fact that they would take forever to say we are under

883
01:24:21,820 --> 01:24:28,620
attack and stuff like that ironically i think that's that's also a dalek problem um i don't

884
01:24:28,620 --> 01:24:34,380
think it's as much these days i think uh nick breaks arguably doesn't get enough credit for how

885
01:24:34,380 --> 01:24:38,940
much kind of energy he puts into dalek voices because when when you have a couple of daleks

886
01:24:38,940 --> 01:24:45,580
have conversations these days uh it's it's weirdly emotive you know they're always very charged and

887
01:24:45,580 --> 01:24:51,580
furious with each other uh back in the day you know 60s to an extent the 70s particularly like

888
01:24:51,580 --> 01:24:57,740
day of the daleks um the daleks can talk quite slowly and it you know sort of the worst scenes

889
01:24:57,740 --> 01:25:06,220
of a dalek story i used to find was a couple of daleks need to talk to each other um and it's sort

890
01:25:06,220 --> 01:25:12,700
of strangely ironic that in in trying to come up with a creature that is the anti-dalek the worst

891
01:25:12,700 --> 01:25:19,660
than dalek um you end up with the same thing where and i you know i will say i do like the kind of

892
01:25:19,660 --> 01:25:26,060
creepy little musical motif that happens every time they talk possibly it has to right because

893
01:25:26,060 --> 01:25:30,380
you because you're faced with this voice so you're like we've got to do something because we can't

894
01:25:30,380 --> 01:25:35,580
just have these two actors in two booths desperately try not to make eye contact when they're doing this

895
01:25:35,580 --> 01:25:42,140
voice uh we'll have to put on a creepy voice effect but it it's yeah it's a bit like when daleks

896
01:25:42,140 --> 01:25:47,980
sort of stuck in it you know stuck in a lift like how are you good weekend uh it's it's that kind of

897
01:25:47,980 --> 01:25:55,500
thing i think that's part of the problem is i i stopped thinking about i stopped picturing aliens

898
01:25:55,500 --> 01:26:01,740
and started picturing two really embarrassed actors just like just trying not to look at each

899
01:26:01,740 --> 01:26:07,980
other through the glass and go oh god just just get to five o'clock and get this part done you know

900
01:26:07,980 --> 01:26:14,540
um something of it felt like that to me you know and um normally with big finish that's not the

901
01:26:14,540 --> 01:26:19,820
case um it could be just that i'm very prone to secondhand embarrassment too easily i don't know

902
01:26:19,820 --> 01:26:23,180
but i had that quite strongly in places during this one

903
01:26:27,260 --> 01:26:33,180
well that's that is all we have time for today um but we've we've had a really good look at these

904
01:26:33,180 --> 01:26:36,780
these four stories and i'm looking forward to coming back and looking at the other

905
01:26:36,780 --> 01:26:42,860
unbound you know we've still got full fathom five to discuss which is very interesting in

906
01:26:42,860 --> 01:26:54,220
terms of what it does um we've got exile and heges at scars which interesting um so yeah it'll be

907
01:26:54,220 --> 01:27:00,700
it'll be good to sort of revisit those um and because it was a range of ups and downs unbound

908
01:27:00,700 --> 01:27:07,980
we've talked i think mostly about ups today um but there's no denying that there are sort of

909
01:27:07,980 --> 01:27:12,140
there are some in there that aren't as universally beloved so it'd be interesting to have a look at

910
01:27:12,140 --> 01:27:16,380
those next time but in the meanwhile i will say a big thank you and goodbye to gareth

911
01:27:17,100 --> 01:27:23,180
thank you very much and a big thank you and goodbye to mark cheerio and we'll

912
01:27:23,180 --> 01:27:38,540
we'll continue our journey through the unbound universe very soon goodbye now