1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,000 You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality. 2 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,000 You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality. 3 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:07,000 Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality. I'm Johnston and this week I have Connor with me. 4 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,000 Hello! 5 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,000 And I have Mansour too. 6 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Hello! 7 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,000 And we're still kind of wrapping up 2024. 8 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:23,000 And I think this is the last stop on our way out of 2024. 9 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:28,000 We're going to talk about Joy to the World, which was the Doctor Who Christmas special, 10 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,000 which I generally enjoyed. I think it was a good one. 11 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,000 So we're going to have a chat about that. 12 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,000 We're going to talk about some of the things that happened in the episode. 13 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:41,000 And we are going to chat about some other Christmas TV as well, 14 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:46,000 because we just couldn't not mention Wallace and Gromit and a few other things. 15 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,000 So we'll dive straight in. There will be spoilers here. 16 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,000 Obviously we're going to talk spoilery type things for a fairly recent episode. 17 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,000 So we'd probably better warn you all about that. 18 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Joy to the World. 19 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,000 Connor, you go first. Let's talk about it. 20 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,000 What did you think overall? 21 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Yeah, definitely an improvement on the Church on Ruby Road. 22 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,000 I liked a lot of the setting. 23 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,000 I like the time hotel and I like hopping around into the different time periods. 24 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:22,000 It's quite cool seeing the likes of the Orient Express and Everest Base Camp. 25 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:27,000 I think those wee miniature time zones were captured really well. 26 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,000 I quite like those. 27 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:35,000 And I like most of everything else. 28 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:40,000 I think a decent start. 29 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,000 I think it drops a little bit in the middle. 30 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:48,000 It gets quite slow and there's not a huge amount of plot to carry it through. 31 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,000 What saves it for me is the ending. 32 00:02:52,000 --> 00:03:01,000 It's the first episode of this new series I think that has really hit for me on an emotional level right at the very end. 33 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,000 I know that's not the case for everybody. 34 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:12,000 I've heard other reviews and seen other people talking about the ending in slightly more critical terms. 35 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,000 But it worked for me, I think. 36 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,000 Just how things turned out. 37 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:25,000 So I cannot deny that I felt quite moved by some of what went on right at the very end. 38 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,000 Yeah, it's good. 39 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Shudy Cat was on great form. 40 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:38,000 I think it's always a milestone for a Doctor to carry the series on their own without their first companion. 41 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:43,000 And he accomplishes that very well here. 42 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,000 As good as Millie Gibson is, I didn't miss Ruby Sunday in this. 43 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:54,000 Beyond the little cameo she got, I didn't feel like there was a gap missing from this. 44 00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:01,000 And that's testament to how well Shudy Cat was and some of the guest characters filled that slot. 45 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,000 So big fan of his performance. 46 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:13,000 I love the wee bit at the start where he's coming out of the TARDIS in his dressing gown with his morning coffee. 47 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,000 And he's just going to steal some milk from the hotel and then he's going to go away again. 48 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,000 I think that's hilarious. 49 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:27,000 And I really liked the wee bit then when he goes back into the TARDIS and sort of subconsciously puts on his coat and gets ready. 50 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,000 And then, hold on, I'm putting on my coat and I've lifted the sonic screwdriver. 51 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,000 I'm going outside. What did I see out there? 52 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,000 I think that's really funny and it worked really well for his doctor. 53 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:42,000 So I thought that was a really lovely wee moment. 54 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,000 As I said, I think it drags a little bit in the middle. 55 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:55,000 What saves it in the middle again is the doctor's relationship with Anita, their friendship. 56 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,000 Because he gets stuck on Earth for the year and he has to live his life out. 57 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,000 I think he coped with it better than some of the other doctors would. 58 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:14,000 Like you remember Matt Smith in The Power of Three not coping with linear time or linear time and domestic life. 59 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:23,000 This doctor obviously copes much better with it, gets himself a job in the hotel and genuinely builds a friendship with Anita. 60 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:31,000 So that's the highlight of the episode really is that segment where they're just being mates for a while. 61 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,000 I've seen a lot of people say that that should have been the whole episode and I sort of agree. 62 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,000 I think it was by far the strongest part. 63 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:43,000 As you're going through then towards the... 64 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:50,000 Yes, it sort of slows down after that is what I mean when I'm talking about the middle being a bit slower. 65 00:05:50,000 --> 00:06:00,000 When he and Joy are trying to work out what to do with the briefcase. 66 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,000 There's not an awful lot going on, I don't think. 67 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:13,000 And it feels like it stalled slightly once Anita goes out of it and the doctor gets back to being the doctor. 68 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,000 But as I said, that picks up towards the end. 69 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:28,000 So by far the strongest character element as far as Joy goes was her... 70 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:39,000 The guilt she feels over losing her mum and the way she lost her mum, which is picked straight out of the real world. 71 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:55,000 Her mum died on Christmas Day 2020 on a... it's not explicit that it was Covid, but it's very obviously related to Covid. 72 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:01,000 And that hits quite personally, I think, for an awful lot of people. 73 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:12,000 I like that they take a swing at the former government and how they behaved during those times when everyone else had to behave in a certain way. 74 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,000 And they did not. 75 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:22,000 There's very clearly anger in the writing and in the performances over that. 76 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,000 And it's incredibly justified anger. 77 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:34,000 And I'm glad that Doctor Who decided to take that real world swing over all of that. 78 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:46,000 So I like the bit where Joy talks about her mum and about those awful people with their wine fridges and their parties. 79 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,000 And I followed the rules and they didn't. 80 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,000 That hits really personally, I think, for an awful lot of people. 81 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,000 Your mileage may vary on whether it's appropriate for Doctor Who to do that. 82 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:09,000 I thought it was fantastic to see that on the one day when Doctor Who is guaranteed an audience on Christmas Day. 83 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,000 So ties in, as I said, to the ending. 84 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:20,000 I genuinely teared up whenever Star Joy went back and got her mum, because 85 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:28,000 I think we all know people, or the chances are that we all know someone who was affected by Covid or by, 86 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:36,000 or was in hospital during those periods. I was in and out of hospitals during that period. 87 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:42,000 And remembered all very, very clearly, obviously. 88 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:52,000 So seeing that almost sort of wish fulfilment that you could go back and not rescue, but be there. 89 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:01,000 It's sort of almost pitched as a rescue or presented as a rescue on screen. 90 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,000 I think there's a bit of wish fulfilment in that. 91 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:10,000 And it's you can almost sort of live vicariously through Joy in that moment. 92 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,000 Going back to see a relative in those times when you couldn't. 93 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:20,000 So I thought that worked pretty well. And I liked that an awful lot. 94 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:25,000 Yeah, that's it. That's Joy to the World for me. 95 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:34,000 I'm very glad it did do the sort of harder hitting, not necessarily harder hitting, but you know what I mean stuff. 96 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:45,000 The angry stuff, the stuff with the message, because it would have been very easy for this just to be another sort of fun, 97 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,000 inconsequential and fairly flat Christmas special. 98 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:58,000 I think there's a lot of hard work being put into past Christmas specials to make them sort of overly Christmassy 99 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:03,000 and all very jolly and have the big happy ending moment and that kind of thing. 100 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,000 And this had a bit more substance. 101 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:16,000 And I don't think Doctor Who should just lose any kind of substance all of a sudden because of the day that it happens to be broadcast. 102 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:23,000 People are tuning in for Christmas Doctor Who episode, not to spend Christmas with Doctor Who. 103 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:29,000 So I'm kind of really glad it did have that moment and it did have that stuff. 104 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:37,000 Like you say, it was kind of a nice emotionally heavy payoff that ran through the episode. 105 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,000 Yeah. Mansour, do you want to talk about it? 106 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,000 Yeah, I agree with a lot of that. 107 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,000 I was just looking back at what I'd written like immediately after it was on. 108 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,000 I think I still feel the same way overall. 109 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,000 So I really liked it overall. 110 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:06,000 But if you were picking holes, I think it's almost like two halves of two very different stories squashed together with the whole Anita bit in the middle. 111 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:15,000 And then Joy's story almost being like a wraparound around that from the doctor's point of view. 112 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,000 Yeah, so I just would have liked a bit more time with Joy. 113 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:27,000 And I think the ending did land. It was really, really well judged for all the reasons Conor was saying. 114 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:33,000 It wasn't officially a Christmas episode, but was it originally? 115 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:43,000 Waters of Mars is like another episode that's like a sort of standalone special, but like has a much, much darker, more emotional ending. 116 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:58,000 And that those moments with Joy, yes, it ends on a hopeful note, but that reminded me of the ending of Waters of Mars of like Doctor Who just unexpectedly suddenly like doing this like. 117 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:13,000 And it's all the more effective because it comes in the context of like a sort of fluffier adventure around it and then you suddenly have this really hard hitting moment. I thought that really worked well. 118 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:23,000 Like, and it was just really good to see I think Stephen Moffat's really good with this doctor and this era. 119 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:43,000 It's almost like replicating what was going on in 2005, 2006 where I like both the original RTD era and Moffat's era, but there was something about Moffat being a guest writer on someone else's show that seems to work really well for him. 120 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:51,000 And I think Boom and this episode have both been both been some of my favorites of this whole recent run. 121 00:12:51,000 --> 00:13:02,000 I'm not saying that I want him to take over from Russell T. Davis in the next few years I think it should absolutely be someone new who comes in and takes over next. 122 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:09,000 I feel like whatever good stuff, people like RTD or Moffat might come back and do. 123 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:19,000 Doctor Who across any medium just starts to stagnate if you have the same people making it for decades on end. 124 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:25,000 But yeah, it was interesting as well like some of the chatter online about a controversial moment. 125 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:40,000 It was, I was trying to work out after the fact whether they were talking about the Bethlehem bit, which is very on the nose, or whether they were talking about the pre direct COVID reference. 126 00:13:40,000 --> 00:14:00,000 I think from context people were talking about the Star of Bethlehem, but I feel like the COVID bit is much more controversial or political than, so that's a cheeky moment at the end where you have to, you know, joy turning into the Star of Bethlehem. 127 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,000 What else? I really like the doctor in this. 128 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:24,000 This is like a sort of continuity cohesiveness point, but after the giggle, it very much felt like, okay, this new doctor is a fresh start, they're not going to be overly burdened by trauma or, or like, or their past. 129 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:32,000 They're going to have gone through, they've gone through therapy retrospectively and they're going to move on in a, with a much lighter tone. 130 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:40,000 Maybe this is Moffat's style, or maybe just the nature of this story. 131 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:52,000 But it feels like there's a few moments here where this doesn't feel like a doctor who's addressed all of his psychological issues and is still clinging on to a lot of the same things. 132 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:57,000 Like the way he doesn't leave the hotel when he's with Anita. 133 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,000 That seemed to be important. 134 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:17,000 There's a lot of good stuff about his character that was brought out here that I liked as well. And that makes it like some of my favorite moments from, from this doctor, the bit where he's very sort of directly channeling Sylvester McCoy and 135 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:31,000 that moment of manipulation and pushing his companion over the edge with a kind of long game in mind. 136 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:50,000 And sort of the thing about getting the milk at the start. I thought that was really nice as well. So there was like some chat on social media about how there's different ways of portraying the doctor, you could go with like what we've been seeing over the last scene is a bit more of a sort of 137 00:15:50,000 --> 00:16:12,000 a suave romantic doctor and yes that is part of this incarnation. And, but it's nice to have a moment where he's just being I think phrase someone used was like a weird little goblin man and stealing milk, and I think that that was really nice to see as a way to reintroduce him in this in this special. 138 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:29,000 So yeah, I did like I didn't have any huge problems with it the only like I said the only thing was that it is almost those two episodes smashed together and it's slightly harms each side of it for them to share that space. 139 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,000 Because the Anita thing could have been a whole episode in itself. 140 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:45,000 I could have spent a bit more time with joy. As well. That would be my one criticism but I liked, I liked everything else about it. 141 00:16:45,000 --> 00:17:00,000 You see I felt as though joys, essentially death didn't really have much of an impact at all because we haven't actually spent much time with the character. 142 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:08,000 Like, the whole episode kind of almost went out of its way to avoid spending time with her. 143 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:20,000 I wonder if that was just so we wouldn't be sort of emotionally hit at the end of it. 144 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,000 I wonder how much time they actually had with Nicola as well. 145 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,000 That's true. 146 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:40,000 I don't know that they maybe had her for the whole shooting time, and it was only part of it because she's completely well the whole thing is completely set bound, but she's only ever really in three sets. 147 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,000 Three or three sets. 148 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:56,000 It's very limited time for her to get like, she, she, a lot of the reviewers were surprised that she got top billing and given how much time you spend with Anita and how much of an oppression she makes. 149 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:13,000 Just thinking about it now like, I don't know if this would have worked at all and you know it's always weird to criticize something for what it should have been rather than what it is but I feel like it would have been interesting to have had like a much more full, full on 150 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:23,000 story with Joy, much more focused on her. And then maybe in the following season, you have an episode that jumps back and is just about the Anita strand of things. 151 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:32,000 So you see the start and the end of Anita's story in this special, and then you go back and get the full story. 152 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:55,000 Yeah, because the Anita bit should have been a whole episode is, it's a pretty common sort of comment at this point isn't it. I've said it myself, I've heard quite a few other people say it was, I actually really liked it like I thought it was a really, really good way to format an hour episode because obviously 153 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Normal Doctor Who is 45-50 minutes, the Christmas episode is longer than that. And instead of stretching out an idea that maybe was for 45 minutes to the full 60, what we've got instead is essentially a mini episode in an episode like it's its own sequences, its own little bit, it's not interrupted by anything else. 154 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:39,000 It is essentially a mini-sode, it is essentially an episode within an episode and I quite like that, it kind of sort of reminds me of how sort of Tom Baker's Six-Party has kind of had a bit of a location whatever shift in the final two episodes. 155 00:19:39,000 --> 00:20:00,000 It's sort of similar to that, you know, instead of padding out an episode, let's do something else, let's go elsewhere, and I liked that, that works. But it did kind of, I cost the end of the episode a little bit of the emotional heft that it was trying to get across. 156 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:25,000 The ending I guess is comparable with Voyage of the Damned as in the single episode companion goes off to be a star. And by the end of Voyage of the Damned, like we were, we were properly invested in Astrid, you know, Astrid was a character that we'd really, really come to get to know, the Doctor had kind of slightly fallen in love with and all of this kind of thing. 157 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:42,000 Whereas, like, the Doctor doesn't spend much time with Joy at all, like there's not even some off-screen stuff where obviously, you know, we basically see the entirety of their adventure together. 158 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:58,000 And it just, it doesn't feel as though there's enough there to fully make us feel what we should be feeling about this, the conclusion to this character's story. I really enjoyed the episode, I thought it was great, you know, I will add. 159 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:24,000 I just think that we were perhaps robbed of maybe a stronger emotional payoff at the end. But you're right, I suspect, Conor, you're right, and I suspect that it's down to like how long they actually had with various cast members and that kind of thing. 160 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:53,000 And I can understand why they've given a top billing, because, you know, she is the big name, she's the star of Bridgerton and Derry Girl, so yeah, why not, why not give her the top billing, why not have her on the poster to get people in to watch the episode, you know, something extra to pull people in that wouldn't normally watch Doctor Who, but, oh well, maybe it's acceptable on Christmas Day because it's got her off Bridgerton in it, which is what. 161 00:21:53,000 --> 00:22:14,000 What? Well, which is what Voyage of the Damned was doing with Kylie as well, so it's, they're very different episodes, but they do that one thing or those couple of things exactly the same, and I think that part of their success is because of it. 162 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:32,000 There's a lot of good, we like light comedy moments throughout it as well, which I think help a lot. The one that always, you know, the one that has been coming to mind is whenever the doctor's helping out around the hotel and Anita hands him the plunger and he looks at it and her's like, is this armed? 163 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,000 It's stuff like that stuff like him going to get the coffee. 164 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:50,000 It's stuff Shooty does well and it's those wee moments that have stuck in my head the most, just those light, quick, wordy little bits of Moffat comedy as well. 165 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:57,000 Did anybody notice the Paternoster gang reference as well at the very beginning? 166 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:06,000 He mentions the, it's the guy in the first hotel room during the war mentions about the cathedral being bombed. I used to know someone up that direction. 167 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:14,000 Because Paternoster Row is as far as I know a real street beside St Paul's Cathedral in London. 168 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:22,000 And his wife says, oh woman was it? And he's like, oh two women actually. I was like, ah it's the Paternoster gang. 169 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,000 No, just me. 170 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,000 Yeah, my London geography is not that good. 171 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:34,000 Well it was, it was a Vastra and Jenny cameo or reference. 172 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,000 Yeah, that's a nice little reference to drop in. 173 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:49,000 I've always been surprised actually that we haven't seen Paternoster gang back on screen since. It was deep breath, wasn't it? 174 00:23:49,000 --> 00:24:02,000 It's over 10 years ago now, that's mad. Because obviously they've carried on at Big Finish, they've popped up elsewhere and they've had their own range in Big Finish. 175 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Was that it? Did they never come back for the Twelfth Doctor? I don't know if they did, did they? 176 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,000 Unless I'm completely forgetting an episode. 177 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,000 No, I think deep breath was their last story. 178 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:22,000 It wasn't even like a show on an era thing, it was Muffet himself didn't bring them back for the Twelfth Doctor after that. 179 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:31,000 I suppose we've had a relatively big gap without Kate Stewart appearing as well, haven't we? 180 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:38,000 Yeah, but she seems to have transitioned quite wholeheartedly into this new era when she's in the spin-off as well. 181 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,000 Not just that she's transitioned well, they've given her her own spin-off. 182 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:56,000 Well, the sort of other talking point from the episode that we kind of came to was, we've already mentioned Anita, we've mentioned that wonderful sort of 15 minutes of the episode where the Doctor just lives on Earth for a bit. 183 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:05,000 But Anita, as a companion or a recurring character or whatever, have we been robbed? 184 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:12,000 Absolutely. There's two points in this where I actively dislike the Doctor. 185 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:18,000 That's whenever he's going to leave Anita without saying goodbye, because that's not this Doctor. I don't think that's this Doctor. 186 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:29,000 He's not the sort just to slip away and sneak away from somebody like that. He didn't do it with Ruby, I don't think he would have done it with Anita. 187 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:40,000 And the other moment I don't like the Doctor in is, I know why it's happening, but I think he gets too vicious towards Joy when he's taunting her about her mum. 188 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:50,000 I actively do not like the Doctor in that moment, but we're talking about Anita. 189 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:59,000 I don't understand why, I understand in real world terms why they keep Anita on as a companion, because she's just this one off character. 190 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:11,000 But the Doctor has no reason not to at least invite her onto the TARDIS, because you can tell that she really doesn't want him to leave. 191 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:21,000 And he clearly, he's going because he has to go more, I think, because more than he sort of wants to go. 192 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:29,000 In terms of writing, there's no reason for the Doctor not to go back for Anita and at least invite her into the TARDIS. 193 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:37,000 And it's a testament to how good her bets were that we're sitting here going, oh, she should have gone with him. 194 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:45,000 I think the Doctor has let her down by not asking her to come with him. 195 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:58,000 Do you think she might come back? I'm not saying she's Mrs. Flandt, but like, because Moffat's mentioned something about something in this story linking to the end of season two. 196 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:07,000 I think I'm right. He said something in an interview about he had to be briefed on the plans for season two because it was relevant to something here. 197 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:16,000 Or is it just going to be that the end of season two is, Joy's star floats down and resets everything? 198 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:29,000 But I could see like the Time Hotel coming back or maybe there is like some really out there theory about Anita grows up to be Mrs. Flandt or comes back in some form. 199 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,000 Like, it wouldn't fit at all with the tone of how things are left here. 200 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:41,000 It would be a bit of a weird swerve. But yeah. 201 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:49,000 I mean, the Mrs. Flood thing is ongoing and is going to be speculated about until it is resolved. 202 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:57,000 And, you know, we're going to have everything from it's the eighth Doctor to it's Anita in that time. 203 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,000 I'm not on board with it at all. 204 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:12,000 Like, I'd love the character to come back or to have another kind of significance, but I think it was just an excuse to give us a really just nice 15 minutes of this Doctor at Christmas. 205 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,000 I'm pats out the episode. I don't think there's anything bigger there. 206 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:22,000 She sets up like a spin-off as well, though. Like, whether it's big finish or like that. 207 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,000 Doctor Who does faulty towers. 208 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,000 Yeah, like the Time Hotel spin-off. Absolutely. 209 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:37,000 Yeah. Yeah. I hope somebody writes that fan fiction where Basil faulty finds the Time Hotel. 210 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:44,000 Oh, that's how I'm going to spend my afternoon. 211 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:50,000 Oh, that's all. Could you imagine? Oh, I'm so disappointed. That's not a thing. 212 00:28:50,000 --> 00:29:05,000 It's sort of territory I can see. Big finish. One day trying to get into the brought back sort of more obscure things to, you know, relative levels of success, actually. 213 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:23,000 Yeah, for me, it was just a really nice bit of the episode that, unfortunately, I think Moffat's just so good at creating characters has made everybody fall in love with Neeta in the space of 15 minutes and made us wish that there was more. 214 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:36,000 I do honestly think it's just a throwaway 15 minutes of sort of pretty good, fairly fluffy for Christmas, quite nice Doctor Who. 215 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:45,000 And I think that's joy to the world done. Unless there's anything you'd like to add. 216 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:53,000 Only only that I don't know how I feel about the Star of Bethlehem. I'm not a religious person in any way, shape or form. 217 00:29:53,000 --> 00:30:01,000 There are people in my family who are religious and who were a little disapproving, but like not enough to actually complain about it. 218 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:08,000 I thought it was a nice wee moment, but I don't know how necessary it was. It's just it's a wee. 219 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:27,000 It feels like a cheap and easy guy right at the end. And I don't know whether Moffat started with, let's do the Star of Bethlehem as like the starting point for this story or whether he realized halfway through, you know, halfway through, you know, hang on, Christmas story, stars. 220 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:40,000 I'm going to make this Bethlehem. And you can almost sort of hear him cackling at his keyboard as you're watching that bit. But I quite like it as a nice little moment. 221 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:49,000 I didn't spot them on first view, but you can see the three wise men on the left hand side of the screen and camping out with their camels. 222 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:57,000 As the doctor looks down at Bethlehem. So I think it's a nice moment, but it's a bit of a strange one. 223 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:10,000 It's not going into tasteless territory at all, is it? It's not like deciding to show the birth of Christ on Doctor Who or anything like that. So yeah, it was a harmless bit of fun, bit of fluff. 224 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:34,000 Yeah, exactly. And people's views might vary depending on like how they face and things like that. But like I was saying, I was surprised that early reviewers were calling it out as something that's going to be controversial or a massive talking point when you had that whole COVID element in there right next to it. 225 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Yeah, so I thought it was like a nice little tag or cherry on top of that scene. It wasn't like super fundamental to the plot resolution on an emotional level. 226 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:55,000 I'd heard rumors about it in advance. So as soon as the doctor emerged out into the desert, I was like, oh, OK, they're in Bethlehem. 227 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:09,000 I was like, oh, it's happening. And that's like 10 minutes before they actually showed Bethlehem, not one. I did see somebody suggesting that it should have started like Bethlehem, zero, zero, zero, zero. 228 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:18,000 I looked that up and it starts at the actual calendar starts at one, doesn't it? There's no zero AD. 229 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:27,000 Yes, I think this was actually on another podcast someone and then someone pointed that out. But it would have been a moment like have it come up zero, zero, zero, zero. 230 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:35,000 You hear a baby crying and then it ticks over to one. 231 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:42,000 It would have been a funny gag or like BC changing the AD or something like that. 232 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:52,000 Yeah, yeah, I think I think I land on the side of it's a nice moment. Ultimately, I'm there's a nicer moment in it, though. 233 00:32:52,000 --> 00:33:00,000 There's one more moment that I kind of looked at it. It did make me smile, which was one of the doors in the time hotel was quite clearly a hobbit door. 234 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,000 I didn't know it's the first time, but I did see people mentioning it. 235 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:18,000 It's once you start doing that, you almost wonder like, were they tempted to go even further and have like Professor X's Cerebro door and all sorts of other little hints to different properties? 236 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,000 Yeah, it's one of those that could easily have gone too far very quickly. 237 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:29,000 But I like the idea that that's there. And it's sort of. 238 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:36,000 Obviously, it's open to interpretation at no point does anyone go, oh, that's a hobbit door. Let's go to Hobbiton. 239 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:42,000 It's very much just it's a door in a time hotel. It could open there. It could open anywhere. 240 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:50,000 But it was. Yeah, lots of other possibilities. You could have stuck in like a wardrobe for Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. 241 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,000 The Master's Tardis from Planets of Fire. 242 00:33:53,000 --> 00:34:02,000 I think there's one or two other things. I don't know if they're like on that scale, but like someone pointed out one or two other like unusual door designs as well. 243 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:09,000 There was the name of the restaurant. I've not read the book myself or seen Moffat's version, but it's Detambles. 244 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,000 He's the name of the time traveler from Time Traveler's Wife. 245 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,000 And Mr. Ben for the costume shop as well. 246 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:24,000 The costume shop. Yeah, there's a couple. Yeah, it's just a nice way to shout out in the design. It's quite cool. 247 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,000 And I'm not so faulty. I saw it. 248 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:36,000 It feels really strange. But one of the you know, the extras that are sort of milling about in the background of the time hotel and they're all dressed for different time periods. 249 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:44,000 So there's like Georgians walking past like as if they're going to Bridgerton or there's a couple of guys in US Army dress uniform. 250 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:50,000 One of the time periods was London 2012 Olympics because the guys are all dressed in like Union flag jackets. 251 00:34:50,000 --> 00:35:00,000 They've got Olympic signs on them. And it's just like London 2012 is now a historical period according to the time hotel. 252 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:06,000 So moving away from Joy to the World, there was there was another bit of Doctor Who on TV over Christmas. 253 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:16,000 And we were treated to another colorized cut down version of a black and white story. And this time it was The War Games, which I absolutely love. 254 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,000 I think The War Games is one of the greatest Doctor Who stories ever made. 255 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:32,000 And I went into this a little bit apprehensive because chopping down 10 episodes into into 90 minutes was always going to be difficult. 256 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:38,000 And I think they just about pulled it off. I certainly think they did a better job than they did with the Daleks. 257 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:50,000 I enjoyed the Daleks, but it really did need an extra little bit of time. The War Games is an even longer story. 258 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:58,000 But yeah, I actually thought they did quite a good job of it. And the color was absolutely fantastic. It worked a treat. 259 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:08,000 It looked brilliant. There were hints in there that the War Chief was the master, which is a debate that I'm sure we're going to have in the next couple of minutes. 260 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,000 But I thought it was an absolute winner. I really enjoyed it. I was really looking forward to it and I really enjoyed it. 261 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,000 Any sort of apprehension that I had disappeared pretty quickly. 262 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:26,000 And I think it shows that The War Games is all these years later still a really, really bloody good bit of Doctor Who. 263 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,000 What did you think of it, Connor? 264 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:35,000 I loved it. Genuinely the most exciting bit of Telly Doctor Who I've seen in quite a while. 265 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:41,000 Or the most excited I've got watching Telly Doctor Who for quite a wee while. I really enjoyed it. 266 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:49,000 I think in terms of the edit, it settles down once they get to the Warlords base. 267 00:36:49,000 --> 00:37:01,000 It's quite choppy before that in places and I'm not sure it entirely works, but I don't know that they could have done a better job ultimately than what they did. 268 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:12,000 I think the whole... I think that's mainly based in we were all sitting waiting to see what happened to... 269 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:20,000 I think we were all waiting to see what happened whenever the Warchief saw the Doctor and didn't disappoint me. 270 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:29,000 I was not previously a die-hard Warchief is the Master sort of fan. I think it was a funny little... 271 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:36,000 It was a joke. See when they've actually done it for real, I'm fully on board. 272 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:43,000 Yes, the music's playing, that's the Master. It sort of changes how you watch it. 273 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:53,000 Whenever I was watching the black and white version for the first time, I knew the whole Warchief is the Master thing. 274 00:37:53,000 --> 00:38:00,000 I was aware of that fan theory and I was sitting watching going, OK, I can see he's the prototype Master. 275 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:06,000 And this with the music playing, not just the John Sim music that sort of starts off. 276 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:13,000 They play the Roger Delgado theme as well at one point from Mind of Evil. 277 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:20,000 I'm sitting here going, yes, this is Canon. Oh my God, that's the Master. Doctor Who has met the Master for the first time. 278 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:29,000 And it does genuinely change how you view it. The colour's fantastic. I think they managed to keep enough of the story intact. 279 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:36,000 I never actually saw the Daleks. I kept putting it off and now it's been taken off BBC iPlayer and I can't watch it. 280 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:44,000 And I'm definitely not going to go and buy it. Who's got the time? 281 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:54,000 But knowing what I know, the complaints were about that. It does seem that they did a much better job with this one. 282 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:59,000 I just thought it looked great. It's a really fun way to experience old Doctor Who. 283 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:08,000 It's amazing to see these stories, sort of the way you've imagined them in your own head, actually put to screen. 284 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:20,000 And that regeneration sequence. What an absolute joy to see that little previously unseen in quote marks regeneration 285 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,000 and get to see John Pertwee's first moments as the Doctor for the first time. 286 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:32,000 I know it's not really that, but that's the effect they're going for. And you're sitting watching it like this is mind blowing. 287 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:42,000 It has done so well. I love the wee bits they added in, like the TARDIS flies down to Earth and the nesting pods come in as well. 288 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:53,000 I just thought the whole thing was so much fun and I'm glad I watched it live on TV and didn't see on like fan forums or Twitter or whatever. 289 00:39:53,000 --> 00:40:04,000 That, oh my God, he's the master. I'm glad I got to see that live on broadcast. So I thought I really enjoyed it. 290 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,000 It was little details like the nesting spheres that really, really made it for me. 291 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:13,000 Just being able to add in just tiny little moments like that really added something to it. 292 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:26,000 The other one that it's proper easy to miss, but you get the regeneration sound effects after the war chief master, whatever, has been killed. 293 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:34,000 He's kind of his body's moved off to the side and you just hear that regeneration sound effects and you kind of wonder, you know, 294 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,000 did everyone just miss the regeneration and all the chaos that was going on? 295 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:44,000 Because it's immediately a big fight after that moment. Yeah, I thought it was brilliantly done. 296 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,000 What about you Mansour? 297 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:53,000 I also quite liked it. Definitely preferred it to the Daleks. 298 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:58,000 I agree it did feel a bit choppy in places, but I don't know. 299 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:08,000 I think given the, if they were given a time limit or a running time, I don't see how you could do a much better edit than they did. 300 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:13,000 It was done really well to like squeeze it all down. 301 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:21,000 Ideal world, I think maybe another 10, 15 minutes, 20 minutes to let it just breathe a little bit more. 302 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:26,000 The color, as I said, looked really good. And again, huge contrast with the Daleks. 303 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:35,000 This might have been a creative choice, but like some of the skin tones in the Daleks were like, 304 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,000 felt very artificial and very inconsistent from scene to scene. 305 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:48,000 Now they might have been quite deliberately going for like a very, very sort of technicolor in your face color palette. 306 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:57,000 But I think that was calmed down a lot for the War Games, either because of learning from that first try or because it's a very different sort of story. 307 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:07,000 And you have those scenes that are set in those what look like Earth based settings. 308 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:17,000 Music, really good. Again, contrasting the Daleks on each of these points, because that felt like a very, very sort of sensory overload in your face, 309 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:25,000 especially with like the editing. And I think it was it was much more settled in the War Games. 310 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:31,000 There was a bit of an odd smashing together themes and styles from different eras, 311 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:41,000 like some of the original music from that era and some new stuff and then pulling from different new series themes. 312 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:49,000 But it sort of worked. And I did like that final scene. 313 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:58,000 It was such a sort of switch in style that it almost makes me feel like should that have been like its own separate minisode? 314 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:09,000 Like it was based on a fan film, but maybe the BBC could have put that out as its own separate minisode afterwards with like an official logo and credits. 315 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:22,000 Because, yeah, it just felt like you were going from the very nicely restored old stuff to like something that looks very different in those last few minutes. 316 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:30,000 Oh, one more thing is the like the effects, the new effects. It was a mix of CGI and model work, I think. 317 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:40,000 And I feel like I think there were new models made for some of them, and those felt like the bits that were most successful for saying like, 318 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:50,000 or for going for that brief of what would this production have looked like if they'd had a lot of small money at the time and had been using like technology that was available at the time. 319 00:43:50,000 --> 00:44:00,000 And I think extended shots of the base and things like that looked really, really nice and sort of felt era appropriate as well. 320 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:15,000 So yeah, really successful, I thought, like improvement from the Daleks in lots of respects and I'd be quite keen for them to do more of these, like make it an annual event maybe. 321 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,000 What would you say is next on your wish list? 322 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:33,000 I would like to see something that can make good use of the color. I think the Wargames does that certainly in the base, which looks a lot more visually interesting when it's got the reds and yellows and whatnot going on than it is in black and white. 323 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:42,000 My gut with this is I would like to see the Time Meddler in color, but I think that would probably have like quite a muddy green and brown palette and the stone. 324 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:51,000 I don't know that it would be visually interesting beyond seeing like the Monk's Tardis getting revealed and I don't know that that's enough to sustain a story. 325 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:56,000 That's thinking of the chase, like the chase would be quite interesting in all those different settings. 326 00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:03,000 It would be a lot of work for colorization because I'd have to like develop the palettes for all those different scenes and sets. 327 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:10,000 I would also be wild seeing the chase condensed down into like one unit rather than six. 328 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,000 Because it is very episodic. 329 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:17,000 It's very episodic and it's a lot of different locations. 330 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:33,000 I think the problem that you'd have with both the Time Meddler and the chase is that there are a lot of scenes in a studio that are supposed to be outdoors, like the studio is representing an outside location. 331 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:39,000 And I think the color might show that up a little bit too much. 332 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:49,000 The one that comes to my mind first of all would be the war machines, which has got a lot of exterior London stuff going on. 333 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:58,000 And while it still does have sort of outside spaces represented in the studio, it's not as big. 334 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:03,000 It is just, you know, smaller areas, that kind of thing. 335 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:08,000 It's not like an entire forest or anything like that, which the Time Meddler has. 336 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,000 There's also less to lose because it's only four episodes. 337 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:19,000 I'd like to see them do a story that's already fairly close to the runtime that they're aiming for. 338 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:24,000 And you don't have to lose a huge amount, maybe. 339 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,000 More like a four-parter rather than a big seven or ten-parter. 340 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,000 Yeah, like I'm happy for there to be some cuts for pace. 341 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:40,000 And I don't think there are many Doctor Who stories that, or classic Doctor Who stories, that you wouldn't cut at some point to speed things up a bit. 342 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:50,000 I'm hoping that whenever the likes of Invasion of the Dinosaurs, you know, whenever season 11 comes around for the collection set, 343 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:58,000 I'm hoping that they're going to get whoever's doing these colorizations to redo Invasion of the Dinosaurs, part one, 344 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:05,000 and some of those partway episodes that have been colorized before, but could be done a lot better now. 345 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:13,000 I think it might be Inferno. I don't know. I know it's due to come out. I know that collection set is on its way. 346 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:18,000 But I always think they all sort of look slightly sunburned in Inferno. 347 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,000 And I would quite like to see a more balanced color palette. 348 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:28,000 Color wise, I think the worst suffering from season seven is still Ambassadors of Death. 349 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:40,000 Like they did a really, really, really good job for the DVD, but it was still noticeably not as good as others. 350 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:49,000 So I'm looking forward to seeing how that turns out on the Blu-ray because I hope they manage to do quite a bit more with it. 351 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:55,000 I think they've shared some screen caps of like someone involved to share a couple of screen caps. 352 00:47:55,000 --> 00:48:03,000 But just adding to the wish list, I was just looking down the list and I would put the Romans and the gunfighters on there as well. 353 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:08,000 I feel like it could be, especially with the Romans, there could be a lot of color. 354 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,000 And obviously there's issues with it happening. 355 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:19,000 One really great thing to see would be the first story, An Unearthly Child. 356 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,000 Yeah, I can see both of those working. 357 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:27,000 Again, with Romans, there's a lot of outside in the studio stuff. 358 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:34,000 And I'm really not sure if it would stand up or not. 359 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:42,000 But then, because you don't really get a lot of it after the 60s, it becomes a lot more location heavy towards the end of the 60s. 360 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,000 So it's only really the heart and a layer away. 361 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,000 You do have outside spaces represented in studio. 362 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,000 The Aztecs would have the same problem, wouldn't it? 363 00:48:50,000 --> 00:49:01,000 You'd have like those outdoor scenes, but that would look, that would be, again, amazing opportunities for the costumes and sets to be colored. 364 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:06,000 For the sake of representing Troughton in this conversation. 365 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,000 I was going to say we're all assuming as a heart now. 366 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,000 I wouldn't actually mind if they did another Troughton. 367 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,000 I would like it to be Enemy of the World. 368 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,000 Here's the field, complete. 369 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,000 Great. 370 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,000 I think Tomb of the Cybermen could work quite well. 371 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,000 It's very silver though. 372 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:32,000 Would it have that same thing of looking like, the impression of black and white that's been tinted? 373 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,000 Maybe. 374 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,000 Because all the base is going to be silver. 375 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,000 Well, actually, maybe it doesn't have to be. 376 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,000 But in my head, it's always like the whole base is silver, the side men are silver. 377 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:54,000 I was going to say all the downstairs, in the underground bit, in the actual ice tomb for the Cybermen, I've always thought it's such a monochrome story. 378 00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:01,000 Like the frost and snow and the silver and metal, I don't know that it would necessarily benefit from colorization. 379 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,000 And the invasion would be great if two episodes weren't missing as well. 380 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:14,000 Do you think if the invasion was cut down, same with the web, is there a way of doing a cut down version that doesn't need those missing episodes? 381 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:21,000 I reckon you could probably skip episode four of the invasion without too much trouble. 382 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:32,000 Like you've got the Cybermen cliffhanger at the end, but then again, at the same time, that exists in part five. 383 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,000 The first episode does set up quite a bit and introduce a couple of characters. 384 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,000 Or Tales of the TARDIS. 385 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:43,000 You could do like, combine Tales of the TARDIS with these colorizations. 386 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,000 And that could help. 387 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,000 Take away the gaps with narration and framing devices. 388 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:55,000 So basically just Nicholas Courtney's links for the VHS. 389 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,000 Oh yeah, they've done that already haven't they? 390 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:01,000 And there's one with Ian for, was it the crusade? 391 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,000 Yeah, crusade. 392 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:03,000 Yeah, so basically that. 393 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:09,000 Anyway, let's sidestep further and let's talk about other Christmas TV. 394 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:17,000 Briefly. 395 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,000 That one. 396 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:25,000 So yeah, this is the repeat of the wrong trousers that I watched on BBC iPlayer. 397 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:30,000 And that's all the Wallace and Gromit there is to talk about. 398 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:34,000 Oh no, there was the entirely new film that was really, really, really good. 399 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:35,000 It was brilliant. 400 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,000 It was brilliant. 401 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:44,000 Vengeance Most Foul, the new Wallace and Gromit, which was, let's be honest, it was the bit of Christmas TV we were all looking forward to the most. 402 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,000 Sorry, Doctor Who. 403 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:55,000 Well, listen, we were all very happy because it was a double bill and it was like straight out of Doctor Who and into Wallace and Gromit. 404 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:56,000 It was wonderful. 405 00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,000 We didn't move for about two and a half hours. 406 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,000 It was great because I didn't have to like suffer strictly in the middle or anything like that. 407 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,000 It was just a case of. 408 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,000 Yeah, they got it over and done with. 409 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,000 Yeah, got that over and done with and out of the way. 410 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,000 And it was just Doctor Who, Wallace and Gromit solidly all the way through. 411 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,000 It was fantastic. 412 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:16,000 Vengeance Most Foul was a lot of fun. 413 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:26,000 It was definitely not just a worthy Wallace and Gromit, but a worthy sequel to The Wrong Trousers as well. 414 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:34,000 And I've seen, and this is kind of testament really to just how brilliant Wallace and Gromit and Aardman are, 415 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:48,000 is I've seen so many posts just floating around the internet along the lines of, isn't it amazing how they make a piece of plasticine look so evil with Feathers McGraw. 416 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:57,000 For every single time I've seen this posted or shared, it's been with a different shot of Feathers McGraw, like any shot of him. 417 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:01,000 You can just take him out of it and it's just got that penguin is pure evil. 418 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,000 It's amazing. 419 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,000 But yeah, I really enjoyed it. 420 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,000 It was an awful lot of fun. 421 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,000 It's exactly what I wanted from Wallace and Gromit. 422 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,000 Sort of in the build up to Christmas, we talked about it, didn't we, Connor? 423 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:22,000 And I was sort of discussing how I wasn't entirely sure it'd be the same without Peter Salis, but no, absolutely perfect. 424 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:23,000 Couldn't have been better. 425 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:42,000 Do you think it's the, with Feathers McGraw, do you think it's the physical design or I'm wondering if it's more like the way he moves and the way they're just like very disciplined about having him keep very still and there's something quite creepy about that, that combined with the eyes? 426 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:43,000 I think it's a bit of a mixture. 427 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:53,000 I think the biggest thing he has going for him is that we sort of, it's his eyes, it's his wee black beady eyes that sort of seem to look deep into your soul. 428 00:53:53,000 --> 00:54:01,000 And you're right, it is partially in the way he's animated, but he always seems to be stirring really hard at something. 429 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:09,000 I know there's a lot of bits that you'll probably like, I know the whole narrowboat chase at the end is probably going to become iconic. 430 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:16,000 I think my favorite bit in the whole thing was when Feathers was in his cell and he had the wee robot hand. 431 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:31,000 There's just so many cool wee gags in that bit and it's animated so well, I would mark that out as my favorite scene in the whole thing because at first you think he's going for the keys and he's actually going for the computer keyboard. 432 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:39,000 Rather than whip the hand back whenever the officer goes to sneeze and wake up, he puts the thing's finger under their nose to stop the sneeze. 433 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:46,000 It's just such a masterclass in visual comedy. 434 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:53,000 And it's a wonderful callback to the sequence in The Wrong Trousers where he's robbing the diamond. 435 00:54:53,000 --> 00:55:07,000 Yes, it's just brilliant. And he's trying to guess Wallace's password. 436 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:16,000 And there's those rare little moments where you see Feathers McRaw expressing some emotion when he's sweating and he's nervous that it's going to go wrong. 437 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:27,000 They did that in The Wrong Trousers as well. But other than that, he's very still and scary. 438 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:37,000 You know the bit where the submarine comes up in his enclosure in the zoo and he's stroking the seal. The seal's name is Ron. 439 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:45,000 Apparently, I don't know if it's on screen at any stage, but the animator said that the seal's name is Ron. So Ron seal. 440 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:51,000 Oh, brilliant. 441 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:58,000 There's a lovely wee thing as well. I've seen this pointed out in a few places, but it's always worth a mention because it is just really lovely. 442 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:07,000 Peter Salas's costume from Last of the Summer Wine is hanging up in Wallace's hallway. I thought that was a nice wee tribute. 443 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:22,000 And the new voice actor is excellent, I thought. It's sort of Jonathan Carley levels of indistinguishable from a very, very distinctive original actor who's passed away. 444 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:34,000 There genuinely wasn't a moment where I went, oh no, that's not Peter Salas. Peter Salas wouldn't do that or whatever. It was spot on. Absolutely spot on. 445 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:43,000 Have you seen any of the behind the scenes? The actor's name is Ben Whitehead. Have you seen any of the behind the scenes of him recording it? 446 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:48,000 It makes me feel like they've put Peter Salas's voice over that behind the scenes footage. 447 00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:58,000 And he's overthinking to it, yeah. But like his whole face changes shape. Just the levels that he's going to to capture the sound and voice of Wallace. 448 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:06,000 It's again a masterclass. They could not have found anybody better. He's incredibly expressive during that performance, isn't he? 449 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:12,000 Which sometimes it's not easy to do when you're doing an impression. You just kind of pull the face that you do. 450 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:22,000 But yeah, you're right. There's a real performance in there and it's brilliant. Wallace and Gromit, definitely a winner. 451 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:32,000 And Feathers McGraw escaped at the end. So there's got to be more. There's got to be a third. The Feathers trilogy. 452 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:39,000 I know. A moment that got a real laugh was a couple of moments in the narrative. 453 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:48,000 I've seen a lot of people single out the, that's just an innocent nun out for a pleasure cruise. 454 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:59,000 Maybe Wallace really was just a misunderstood inventor and then he comes off out of the boat and he's peddling like mad. 455 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,000 It's absolutely brilliant. 456 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:16,000 I just discovered this detail as well that in, I've not seen it, but apparently the end of Chicken Run 2 has an appearance by Feathers McGraw, like in the background with this little glove on his head. 457 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,000 I didn't know. 458 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:22,000 So it's a universe, the Aardman cinematic universe. 459 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:30,000 Yeah. He's pretty central in the frame when you know where he is. He's like kind of in the back, but yeah, pretty obvious. 460 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,000 Oh, I'll have to go and have a look at that. 461 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:42,000 Yeah, I need to find that. Brilliant. Other Christmas TV then. What else was there? What else did you watch and enjoy? Do you want to go first, Connor? 462 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,000 Well, the big, there's a couple, but the big one probably has to be Gavin and Stacey. 463 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:56,000 And I'm not, I'm not, it sounds wrong for me to say that I'm not a fan of Gavin and Stacey. I don't mean that in that I don't like it. I mean that I've never really watched it. 464 00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:04,000 My brother's a big fan of it, so I'm aware of a lot of what went on in it, but it's not a show I would ever have sat down to watch myself. 465 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:16,000 But I saw the 2019 special and I saw this special and I've seen the earliest episodes. I haven't seen sort of the original series as it moves on a bit later on. 466 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:35,000 But like none of those actors and none of those characters have changed in what, 20 years? They all seem, you know, it feels like it's off a pace with the earlier seasons and the earlier episodes. 467 00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:51,000 You know, like the five year or the long, you know, the five year long gap since the last one, you know, obviously it's not that it didn't matter, but it had no effect on Gavin and Stacey itself, but they can recapture it so easily. 468 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:58,000 It's a really nice, it's a good story. It's funny as get out. Again, we laughed the whole way through it. 469 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:13,000 So, yeah, it absolutely deserves a mention. And I did get that little Doctor Who fan moment where Smithy's having his wedding in the same place. Sarah Jane Smith did. 470 01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:22,000 So it felt really weird watching that and like you're expecting in the reception area the camera to turn around and the TARDIS should be where it was in that one. 471 01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:30,000 But no, no Doctor Who crossover. Sheridan Smith had a wee camera, which was nice. 472 01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,000 And Lauren Cornelius was in it as well, wasn't she? 473 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,000 Was she? 474 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:41,000 I'd not seen it. I'm not a fan, but I believe she was one of the bridal parties or something like that. 475 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,000 No, I had no idea. 476 01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:50,000 All right. Maybe I've just made that up, but that's, I'd heard. 477 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:55,000 What about you Mansour? Any Christmas TV highlights we've not discussed yet? 478 01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:06,000 The thing I watched to mention is probably like the season finale of the Frasier reboot, which is on season two now. 479 01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:15,000 It came out a few weeks ago, but it's been a bit up and down as a reboot and I've been very sort of mixed on it and have been continuing to follow it. 480 01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:20,000 I thought this was like a really, really strong final episode for the season. 481 01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:29,000 So if you're going to dip into the new revived Frasier, I would recommend maybe starting with that episode. 482 01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:32,000 Yeah, so that was it. I don't think there's much else. 483 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:39,000 I think I really watched all of the Wallace and Gromit stuff in advance of the new one. 484 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:52,000 And if we're going to apply Doctor Who level continuity monitoring to Wallace and Gromit, they end the last special with another dog joining them and then she's not in the new film at all. 485 01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:57,000 So clearly the new film is rubbish. Like we should ignore it. 486 01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:06,000 I think the dog went to stay with Sir Charles in the country and sent his love. 487 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,000 The dog went to Java. 488 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:14,000 See, in terms of Wallace and Gromit continuity, I don't care. I don't care. 489 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:25,000 I don't care at any stage. But it's the ending or how they depict Feathers McGraw's capture and like flashback in this is different to how it was in the wrong trigger. 490 01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,000 So yeah, it's very different. 491 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:33,000 This is an alternative universe version of Wallace and Gromit. This is the Wallace and Gromit multiverse. 492 01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:43,000 There's been a time war that's changed established history of the universe. Wallace invented a time machine at one point and that's created branching time lights. 493 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,000 That would not surprise me for Wallace. That wouldn't surprise me at all. 494 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:54,000 Or did Feathers escape from prison after the wrong trousers, pop up in Chicken Run 2, pop up in a close shave. 495 01:02:54,000 --> 01:03:06,000 He's in a close shave if you look really closely, then get caught again by Wallace and Gromit in an unseen adventure that will one day be produced by Big Finish. 496 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:13,000 And the fun thing about that is because it's Big Finish, it will remain unseen. 497 01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:24,000 I just as a note on the Ardman subject, I'm very excited for their next project, which is due out next year. That is 2026, I think, which is Pokemon. 498 01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,000 Wallace and Pikachu. 499 01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:35,000 Wallace and Pikachu. Like I can't think of a more perfect marriage than like Ardman's animation style and Pokemon. It's going to be really cute. It's going to be really funny. 500 01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:36,000 I'm looking forward to that a lot. 501 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:45,000 Yeah, that should be good. I'm very, very curious to see what the result of that is because it's not two things you would have put together. 502 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:55,000 Like in the world of coming up with things that could potentially cross over, that's not one that ever would have occurred to me. 503 01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:59,000 And I like Wallace and Gromit and I like Pokemon. I like playing Pokemon games at least. 504 01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:06,000 But that was truly unexpected. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens there. 505 01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:15,000 I think if this episode has proved one thing, it's that there's room for a coffee bar. What have we been watching on TV recently episode? 506 01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:25,000 So I've watched loads over Christmas. I've watched a series called The Rig on Amazon, which is the first series is very, very Fury from the Deep. 507 01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:32,000 And the second series is maybe The Humans with the Villains or Long, but definitely worth a watch. 508 01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:38,000 The first series was a couple of years ago. I watched it at the time. Then the new ones just come out. 509 01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:46,000 On Christmas Day, one more bit of Christmas Day TV, which I did really enjoy later on in the evening. 510 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:52,000 And this is a proper thing that they put on late at night on Christmas Day for you to fall asleep to when you've definitely had... 511 01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:59,000 Can't we start talking about Mrs. Brown's Boys? I'm going to quit this podcast. 512 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:04,000 That was another Christmas present. They moved that into a graveyard slot. 513 01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:09,000 But that's what you're leading up to that here is bloody Mrs. Brown's Boys. 514 01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:19,000 It isn't. It's a documentary about Roger Moore narrated by Steve Coogan doing an absolutely brilliant Roger Moore impression. 515 01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:28,000 So you kind of had Steve Coogan as Roger Moore reading from Roger Moore's memoirs in a documentary about Roger Moore. 516 01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:37,000 It was all very surreal. And then Roger Moore's kids all look exactly like Roger Moore, like the ones that feature in it. 517 01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:45,000 So yeah, it was one of the most bizarre things ever. I need to go back and watch it, like not after all that drinking. 518 01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:51,000 I'm so glad you said that Steve Coogan was in it because I was about to say that's the most Alan Partridge thing I've ever heard. 519 01:05:51,000 --> 01:06:01,000 Oh, yeah, it was. It was almost Steve Coogan as Alan Partridge as Roger Moore narrating it. 520 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:05,000 It was fantastic. 521 01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:14,000 I think this will be known officially as the episode's podcast Jump the Shark. 522 01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,000 Just like Roger Moore did in The Spy Who Loved Me. 523 01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:22,000 Yeah, yeah. 524 01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:26,000 And on that note, we really will leave this episode there. 525 01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:36,000 But thank you very, very much for coming and discussing Joy to the World, The War Games and other Christmas TV with me. 526 01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:39,000 And we'll be back for more spodcasting soon. 527 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:46,000 We will definitely do that Coffee Bar What's Good to Watch on Teletubbies episode because it sounds like we've got an awful lot. 528 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:50,000 So I will say goodbye to Conor. 529 01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,000 Goodbye. Thank you very much. 530 01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:54,000 And I will say goodbye to Mansour. 531 01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,000 Goodbye and Merry Christmas. 532 01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:08,000 And I will now be silent for a moment while one of these idiots, no doubt, does the whole end of Feast of Stephen thing, whichever one of you is doing it, get on with it. 533 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:11,000 Merry Christmas to all of you at home. 534 01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:12,000 There we go. 535 01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:39,000 Goodbye now.