1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Hello, I'm Joseph Lidster and you're listening to a podcast of spurious morality. Try saying that after a drink. 2 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:07,600 Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality. I'm Johnston and with me this week. I have Gareth 3 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:14,720 Hello, and we are joined by special guest Joseph Lidster. Hello. Hi. How are you? 4 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,660 Very good. Thank you. Welcome. Welcome back 5 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,760 Yes, you're a first you're a first ever returning guest. Oh 6 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:30,080 So we've we've had some very wonderful people join us but as yeah, you are the first one to to rejoin us 7 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,280 Does that make me special or cheap? 8 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,680 Which one? 9 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:39,920 We'll ask our listeners to yeah touch it is on blue sky. We're on blue sky now. We've left to it 10 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:46,600 Oh, yes, so get in touch with us on blue sky and it's very difficult to we don't say tweet anymore 11 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,600 It was nice and easy to go. Oh just tweet 12 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,000 Isn't it supposed to post post post at is on blue sky and 13 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,180 They need a ubiquitous word for that. Yes 14 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,040 That's that was the really stupid thing. I'm going on a rant already 15 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,160 That was the really stupid thing about changing Twitter to X. It was the fact that 16 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,640 Twitter and tweet had become so 17 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,760 Sort of embedded into our language, you know tweet had become a verb 18 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,800 and 19 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,240 like throwing that away for the sake of changing the logo and 20 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:27,680 Satisfying ones ego is stupid really. It's just just one of many brilliant decisions. Just yes 21 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,320 And it was all downhill from there, but yes, we're on blue sky so taught was there 22 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,880 So we're here today to discuss 23 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,040 I suppose a fairly iconic 24 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:48,400 Big Finnish trilogy we're gonna discuss the the villains trilogy that they did in the build up to the 40th anniversary of Doctor 25 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:54,960 Who so we've got Omega. We've got master. We've got Omega. We've got Davros and we've got master get it in order 26 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:01,880 And Joe you you wrote master. I did. Yes many many many years ago. Yes 27 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,400 2021 at least yeah 28 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:12,680 And it was was your second am I right in thinking it was yeah, I'd written the rapture 29 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,600 which was a Sylvester McCoy and Sophie ordered and 30 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,520 they went to Ibiza where aliens are taking over the world with dance music and 31 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,480 MDMA I think it was and 32 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,740 That didn't go down very well with Doctor Who fans 33 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,560 With well with lots of fans. I've been also is my first script 34 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,020 So, you know, it does you know freely admit it falls apart in the final episode and everything 35 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:42,320 But luckily for me, I was commissioned to write master before the Rapture was released 36 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,800 So I got to come back 37 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:50,600 Because I think had the Rapture got the response it got and I hadn't been commissioned for master 38 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,600 I suspect I wouldn't have been commissioned for it 39 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,840 But but thankfully you were and the rest is history 40 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:03,460 and of course the Rapture has brought about this episode of its podcast because I was in Ibiza recently and 41 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,960 saw a sign up 42 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:12,600 advertising Jude's bar and I thought I know who I need to send this to yes. Yeah, so 43 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:18,220 Fired it over and we we decided to podcast again, which was which was nice 44 00:04:18,220 --> 00:04:23,360 So there you go. The Rapture has if nothing else brought about this episode of this podcast. I 45 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:30,240 I liked it. I like it. I didn't have a problem. Yeah. No, I think it's absolutely fantastic 46 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,800 I haven't heard it in years. I remember being really proud of episode two 47 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,520 I think episode two was submit very different topic finish it done before I think episode one was good 48 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:44,120 I just think in episode three it as far as I can remember it starts to fall apart plot wise in episode three 49 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,120 But I learned a lot from doing it. I learned 50 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,760 a lot about plotting 51 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,520 Because I did the big thing I learned from it was 52 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,760 Your endings got to be as strong as your opening 53 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:00,480 Whereas Rapture didn't it had I think quite a strong opening and then sort of trailed off into nothing by the end 54 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,080 And I also learned to get off Doctor Who forums 55 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,840 I mean, I still read stuff, but yeah, not not to really engage with 56 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,320 ongoing 57 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:18,480 Fandome discussions, I suppose on forums. Yeah, because I didn't think it was healthy for me 58 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:24,480 It was healthy for me certainly, but also I don't think it's necessary particularly healthy or not healthy 59 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,560 It's not healthy for me, but I don't think it's particularly good for 60 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:33,800 Allowing free speech on a forum people should be allowed to say they hate something that they've bought 61 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:40,280 Without thinking oh, I don't want to upset someone's feelings. So I very quickly withdrew from 62 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,640 Gallifrey outpost Gallifrey 63 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:51,000 And it's it's the negative ones you remember as well. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, so I died and I got some real doozies 64 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,760 I did get not you know, I was I was like 65 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:59,080 In my early 20s, I said I was young and I hadn't done anything before and it was very exciting 66 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,080 And also I wasn't part of fandom 67 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:07,000 You know, so I didn't really know what people liked or you know what the general consensus on on things was 68 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,960 So I was really just really excited and it came out and yeah 69 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,880 It got some it got some quite personal negative feedback, you know, which I 70 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,960 Did struggle with so I very much was like no don't engage 71 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,840 Which I think is the right thing to do. So, you know, even now I go well, I 72 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:32,640 In many ways I was quite lucky because I very quickly withdrew from from that sort of online world 73 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,480 I'm sure it's become entirely lovely since then 74 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:41,960 Yeah, it's great to be fair I would say the the audio part of Gallifrey and 75 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:49,240 What base now is is nicer than the TV set? Oh, I kind of I only look at audio and books now 76 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,840 I won't go near the TV anymore. They're too angry. Yeah, no, I'm sure you know 77 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:59,440 And also, you know people are entitled to not like stuff and people are inside to say they don't like stuff 78 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,440 And I think especially if they've paid for it 79 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,280 They are, you know very much entitled to say that and I 80 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:10,600 But it were things where it got personal. I love it based on my age and being a new writer 81 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,920 You know, so it did get very much he must never write again 82 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:22,120 And I you know, you did a couple of people in real life said I remember once as a shopping center 83 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,200 there was a shop called 10th planet and we used to sign autographs in it and 84 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,800 Standing outside the shop with Rob Sherman 85 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:33,120 We were waiting for someone presumably who was signing autographs and me and my wife were waiting for someone 86 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,600 to sign autographs and me and Rob were sort of taking the mick out of each other and I think I was I was mocking his 87 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,720 Age despite the fact that you know, it was probably about 20 years younger than I am now 88 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,440 And he said well at least I didn't write the rapture, you know, obviously joking and 89 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,920 This guy next to us turned around and goes did one of you have something to do with the rapture? 90 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:53,920 Don't get me started on the rapture 91 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,880 It didn't ask you to join our conversation 92 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,920 So, yeah, it was it was 93 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,560 an interesting time, but then I got to write master so and that went down a lot better 94 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,380 Well, I think they're both brilliant. So there 95 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:11,160 Thank you 96 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,960 And I did listen to the rapture while I was in Ibiza 97 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:20,640 Oh excellent and I was in the bit of Ibiza in which it said so oh really? Oh lovely 98 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,960 No, I've never been so one day would love to go 99 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,880 Maybe I'll listen to the rapture name for the first time in 20 years 100 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:34,200 Yeah, how many people can claim that the I went to Ibiza to the correct place and listen to it while I was well 101 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:35,680 I think probably not that many came 102 00:08:35,680 --> 00:08:42,000 I think when it came out the Venn diagram of Doctor Who fans and people to go to Ibiza was very very very small 103 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:48,360 Which is all the reasons it didn't go down very well. I suspect these days. It's much wider because it's a much broader wider audience 104 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:55,840 Due to the new series and younger literally younger people enjoying it, so I suspect there's a bit more of a 105 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,200 But that's best when you've taken it out there to do that certainly a choice 106 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,280 Yeah, all customs are like really yeah 107 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,540 I know I had it ready to go just like there's one thing I need to do while I'm there just one thing 108 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,380 Yes, listen to the rapture obviously 109 00:09:14,380 --> 00:09:18,580 It was great news good, and it was sunny it was October, and it was 26 degrees 110 00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:24,700 So no complaints whatsoever, but we're not here to talk about the rapture as much as we do love it 111 00:09:25,420 --> 00:09:28,740 So just before we do dive into that villains trilogy 112 00:09:30,340 --> 00:09:34,500 Like like I said Joe we've had you on before it was near enough couple of years ago now 113 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:38,620 We're coming up to two years. I think if I came up the date before didn't you was January? 114 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:41,580 23 23 115 00:09:41,580 --> 00:09:44,900 23 so yeah near enough couple of years and 116 00:09:46,220 --> 00:09:48,220 You've you've done things since then 117 00:09:53,220 --> 00:10:00,780 Yeah, I would have recorded this in 2020 you wouldn't have necessarily know exactly what we're not to just crying doing a lot of crying 118 00:10:02,020 --> 00:10:05,480 Yeah, no, I've done a couple of things a big finish other than that I've been doing 119 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:12,240 I mean episode two episodes of a kids TV search show new series, which is filming right now, so it's very exciting 120 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,080 That's been it's been a process as I've been a little 121 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,400 Finance coming in from all different countries which means there's lots of notes coming in from all different countries 122 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,640 I did get my one of the favorite notes 123 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,600 I've ever had which was can you turn down the references amount of references to food in your episode? 124 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,600 Because I said I hadn't realized I write food a lot into things because I really like food 125 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:40,040 So I tend to have people talk about food a lot in my scripts and I started thinking about it and going back to my 126 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:45,120 Sarah Janes and torture them going. Yep. There's food. Yep. Yep. They mentioned food. Yep. Someone's cooking 127 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:52,840 So I've done that and I've been doing some theater, which is very nice actually starting some paid theater, which is very good 128 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,200 I've never done before 129 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,200 That's very exciting 130 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:02,440 I've become a pescatarian. So I will rant about the evils of meat. Well, I don't but I 131 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,720 So yeah, I've been lots of changes, but yes, I've done two things a big finish I think that have come out 132 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,600 But I've got one coming out this month actually next month, but two days time 133 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,480 So yeah, I wrote 134 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,440 The first story of the sort of sequel to the Sarah Jane Adventures, which is about Rani 135 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:22,440 Bannerman Road 136 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,560 And I wrote a talk through one story 137 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,920 featuring Yanto and Tommy and 138 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:34,520 I've got a Christmas torchet coming out this year, which is ace and mr. Colchester, which was 139 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:36,360 thrill 140 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:42,040 Which I'm very much looking forward to and will in all likelihood be out by the time 141 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,840 This this makes it online. But it's got piece of writing and I'm really proud of 142 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,680 There's four short stories and the second one in particular 143 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,040 I'm very sort of yeah, that's I've done something I've wanted to do 144 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,800 Since the beginning of the year. I saw a film called all of a strangers came out earlier on this year and I 145 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,280 Fell in love with it. I think it's a stunning piece of filmmaking. I wanted to do something 146 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:11,320 That really delves into sort of the gay life of somebody say in London in the 80s 147 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:13,400 So yeah, it's 148 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,400 See how it goes down. Hopefully it'll go down well 149 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,520 Looking forward to it. And like I say we 150 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,760 Are we may actually have covered it in a spodkin? 151 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:27,480 Before this goes out. Oh, right. We never know we're in between series at the moment. So we're 152 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,520 We're kind of recording a few things ready to we'll back up and running soon next month 153 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,000 But we're just we're banking a few episodes and we thought this would be a good one to just have 154 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,480 Ready to throw out 155 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:45,000 You know if the first few episodes don't do too well we can sort of put look we've got Joe Lidster again 156 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,000 Bring our listeners back. That's the plan obviously 157 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:56,360 Um, so, uh, anyway the the main theme let's get to our our feature presentation 158 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,400 We're going to be talking about as I say the 159 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:05,800 The villains trilogy as it's sort of colloquially known that big big finish brought out for the 160 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,280 40th anniversary and it was it was kind of in the build-up to zegrayas as well 161 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,560 Which was culminating two years of a three-year relationship 162 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:19,800 Um, but we're going to do zegrayas another time. So right now it's omega davros and master 163 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,600 Which I think are 164 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,840 Generally universally beloved. I think it's fair to say i've i've never 165 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:32,600 I've never sort of caught anybody online going. Oh, no, I can't stand davros. It's terrible and 166 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,120 nothing like that. So 167 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:38,120 I'm gonna enter this assuming that everybody's going to be happy about it. So 168 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:47,800 I'm gonna enter this assuming that everybody loves these three stories and they should do they're absolutely brilliant 169 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:49,800 um 170 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,720 just uh 171 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,720 It was quite different for big finish 172 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,920 Because obviously they weren't doing trilogies at the time and wouldn't really adopt the trilogy format for 173 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:04,840 Quite a few years after this was probably seven six seven years before we fully got into trilogy territory 174 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:11,640 Had they done excellus by this point? Well, I was about to ask you that and hope would hope that you knew the answer 175 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,000 I can tell you that they had because we recorded the rapture 176 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,400 Uh, we recorded extra voices for the plague herds of excellus 177 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,160 So you can hear me in the background of plague herds of excellus. So that would have been 178 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,240 Uh 2002 but I think excellus came out 179 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:34,200 As a bonus one each month into it. I don't think it like dalek empire was like dalek empire. It was a an extra thing 180 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:41,960 Yeah, was an excellus to give us some of the other three doctors while they did nothing but six months of paul mcgan for the 181 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,360 The invasion of the transom midnight run 182 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,960 After years of like no paul mcgan they're like oh people are really whining about where's colin so we need to 183 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,640 Yeah, like did anybody listen to chimes of midnight and go oh, but where's colin baker? 184 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:00,920 He's a fan 185 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,800 He's a to be fair probably at that time there were in the way that people are, you know 186 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,680 People some you know some doctor who fans especially 187 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:15,000 You'll find the older doctor who fans you will get people who you know, I mean loathed a tv movie 188 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:21,800 So we're very much paul mcgan does not count and that seems so quaint now compared to how much of the new series has been 189 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,280 Um, but there was i'm sure there was definitely at the time people going I won't buy these 190 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,520 Because the tv movie and the half human and the american stuff doesn't count 191 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,040 um 192 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:37,000 So they probably yeah, but there would have been I imagine there'd been people who wouldn't but I imagine there'd be more people that would buy them 193 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:43,480 Yeah, I mean I found those first couple of paul mcgan runs to be really interesting 194 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,760 They were sort of very forward looking we hadn't had the new series yet. So it was very much 195 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:50,820 This is what? 196 00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:52,820 21st century doctor who is 197 00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:58,740 Yeah, um, and you know, we had other attempts we had scream at the shalker and you know 198 00:15:58,740 --> 00:16:00,420 The little bits and bobs like that 199 00:16:00,420 --> 00:16:06,580 But ultimately that that was doctor who for a long time and i'm a bit too young to have been 200 00:16:06,980 --> 00:16:08,980 properly on board at that point, but 201 00:16:10,020 --> 00:16:11,540 um 202 00:16:11,540 --> 00:16:16,340 Part of me wishes I was part of me does kind of wish that those first couple of mcgan series were 203 00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:19,140 Doctor who? 204 00:16:19,140 --> 00:16:23,460 It was incredibly exciting. I mean, I you know, it was very 205 00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:30,100 Because it just felt and it looked the covers looked different everything about it felt new and fresh 206 00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:31,700 um 207 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:35,860 And it had an arc, you know, which obviously the old series never really had but 208 00:16:36,580 --> 00:16:43,300 Modern television was starting to have more arcs and things. I think lost was a big thing around then so, you know, it was it was 209 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:49,060 Was very much representing what was being made at the time. I think which then obviously the new series 210 00:16:49,940 --> 00:16:50,900 um 211 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:52,900 immediately had arcs and stuff because 212 00:16:53,860 --> 00:16:55,860 That's what you expect. Yeah 213 00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:57,940 hmm 214 00:16:57,940 --> 00:16:59,380 so it's 215 00:16:59,380 --> 00:17:06,420 and and these this trilogy sort of loosely ties into that arc because as I said before it's kind of that build up to 216 00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:08,180 zegreus and 217 00:17:08,180 --> 00:17:10,740 that I assume that part of the brief for 218 00:17:10,740 --> 00:17:14,740 For that trilogy or for master certainly was to have a zegreus reference 219 00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:17,700 No, um, I don't think so 220 00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:18,660 Oh, right 221 00:17:18,660 --> 00:17:21,460 I don't remember that being a thing. I think 222 00:17:22,340 --> 00:17:25,060 I thought I'd do it. I had no idea what zegreus was 223 00:17:25,860 --> 00:17:30,740 Um, I just knew it had been mentioned in project twilight and then in the eighth doctor stuff 224 00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:34,420 So I knew and then obviously I knew there was a story coming out called zegreus 225 00:17:35,060 --> 00:17:38,660 Um, but I genuinely had no idea what it was and if i'm honest right now 226 00:17:38,660 --> 00:17:42,420 I don't know what zegreus is. I think it's a time lord or something 227 00:17:43,140 --> 00:17:50,340 But I just thought in a story that's going to be creepy and I want pure horror audio psychological creepy creepy stuff 228 00:17:51,540 --> 00:17:53,940 There's a nursery rhyme there that's been mentioned 229 00:17:54,820 --> 00:17:58,660 And I think it was put in the trailer and I think it was just that thing of going actually 230 00:17:58,740 --> 00:18:04,820 That's really exciting because it's the next month's story. So yeah, no, but I think it was my choice 231 00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:06,980 I don't think I was asked to do it 232 00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:13,460 That's interesting because maybe i'm wrong, but I re-listened to them sort of recently preparing for this and I could have sworn 233 00:18:13,460 --> 00:18:19,940 There's a zegreus reference in each of the three. There's definitely one in omega. I'm not sure about the other two 234 00:18:20,660 --> 00:18:24,500 Maybe okay, I can imagine gary might have said to um nev 235 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:28,340 Because our confinities about time lords, isn't it? So 236 00:18:29,060 --> 00:18:34,740 It would make sense to mention zegreus whereas if maybe wouldn't endavros and obviously in mine it was a nightmarish voice 237 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:36,740 um, I think 238 00:18:38,340 --> 00:18:43,860 Yeah, it's well, that's interesting. I always assumed it was you have to speak to gary russle. He remembers everything 239 00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:47,540 I I don't remember yesterday. So I certainly don't remember 20 years ago 240 00:18:47,940 --> 00:18:53,140 But i've got a feeling I thought it was me but I can guarantee gary might say it was him and he'd be right 241 00:18:53,860 --> 00:18:58,420 Now, yeah, yeah, and I just like I say I was listening and just thought maybe there's something going on here 242 00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:00,980 They were obviously they were building up to this 243 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:03,300 There we go 244 00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:11,220 um, so the first one in our trilogy is omega which explores omega brings back in collier as omega 245 00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:13,060 and 246 00:19:13,060 --> 00:19:17,620 sort of works as a sort of sequel to arc of infinity, um, but 247 00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:23,140 Very much does its own thing as well. I think it's a never found in script. So it's 248 00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:25,940 witty it's full of 249 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,140 moments great moments and has 250 00:19:29,140 --> 00:19:32,520 a very very memorable twisty cliffhanger 251 00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:38,180 Which when I very first heard this story had to listen to about four times to go what really really? 252 00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:42,900 Um, but it pulls it off. It's it's a great little story. It's 253 00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:47,060 And it's a great start for this this trilogy as well. Um, 254 00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:51,140 naturally just because of the way I prefer my doctor who I would be 255 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:55,140 Least excited about the fifth doctor story 256 00:19:55,780 --> 00:19:57,780 In a trilogy like this 257 00:19:57,780 --> 00:20:02,740 um, but no, this is this is up there with the other two, um 258 00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:09,140 And it's very much enjoyable. So gareth do you want to do you want to talk to us about omega get us going? 259 00:20:09,860 --> 00:20:17,220 Sure. Um, so i've i've always kind of struggled with arcs infinity. I've I always feel it's a very very techno babble 260 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:22,500 Heavy and kind of three doctors as well. I'm clearly team not omega 261 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:26,820 I'm afraid just from just from the classic serious point of view because you've got great performances 262 00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:30,660 But the moment people start explaining antimatter to me bits of my brain die 263 00:20:31,060 --> 00:20:35,300 So I just I just can't get on board with that. There is a spectacularly complicated 264 00:20:35,780 --> 00:20:40,900 Star trek original series episode about antimatter and it always just makes me just think nap pass 265 00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:44,660 um, but with omega with this particular release, it's 266 00:20:45,380 --> 00:20:51,460 It's nev fountain and he's tremendously funny and it's an incredibly grim comedy 267 00:20:51,860 --> 00:20:52,900 um 268 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:57,380 It's got kind of whiffs of douglas adams in it. There's a bit in it. I've written this down. Um 269 00:20:58,260 --> 00:21:01,940 Somebody refers to an electronic sulking machine, which is just pure 270 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,020 marvin really 271 00:21:04,020 --> 00:21:08,740 Um, and it's it's it's very clever the way it kind of calls forward to things that are going to happen 272 00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:15,540 There's another line of joy down fooled by a convincing copy. How embarrassing which is amazing the second time you hear it 273 00:21:15,940 --> 00:21:17,140 um 274 00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:22,340 And it's it's interesting that you were saying about peter davison. Why not peter davison necessarily the best doctor being 275 00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:29,700 Maybe not the one you would at a certain age want to be the lead of something in doctor. Who I felt that way in audio 276 00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:33,700 I like him a lot better. This is a great showcase for him because he gets to play 277 00:21:34,660 --> 00:21:39,940 I don't know how much we we can spoil it, right? I mean, it's pretty old but um, he gets to play 278 00:21:40,260 --> 00:21:42,260 I think our listeners have heard it 279 00:21:42,260 --> 00:21:48,660 They might have heard it. Um, yes, he gets to play different characters basically, um, I think an interesting thing 280 00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:54,500 Which is which goes for all three and i'm interested to hear about the kind of genesis of master for this particular aspect 281 00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:59,620 Is that they all kind of try to interrogate who this baddie is, you know baddie in inverted commas 282 00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:04,020 Are they horrible? Are they something else and omega? 283 00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:10,340 I think I go back and forth over whether this or master is kind of ultimately the most sympathetic to the character 284 00:22:10,740 --> 00:22:14,900 Omega I feel is very much. This is a tragic person 285 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:18,660 What a pitiful figure lets we we need to 286 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:23,140 This guy needs a hug. You know, this bloke has been broken by history 287 00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:29,140 By and ultimately by the doctor because you know, they're merging in arc of infinity 288 00:22:29,620 --> 00:22:36,820 That's caused him to have he was already in a very bad place, but he's worse now because of that specifically which is so sad 289 00:22:37,540 --> 00:22:41,540 Um, and now he has to just relive history over and over again and I think 290 00:22:41,540 --> 00:22:45,060 That whole thing is just such an interesting choice to go 291 00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:52,100 Um, we're we're nearing an anniversary. We want to do a story about a character. Let's bring back. Um 292 00:22:52,820 --> 00:22:58,820 Sorry, anything else? Let's bring back the nighmon and say what actually what if the nighmon's, you know 293 00:22:58,820 --> 00:23:00,580 Got a lot on his plate right now 294 00:23:00,580 --> 00:23:07,220 You know, you wouldn't expect to go there and with omega of all characters because you just think of stephen thorn and his mighty booming voice 295 00:23:07,220 --> 00:23:12,180 The idea that that character is just going to be this 296 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:14,560 this pure 297 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,100 unfortunate person 298 00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:20,820 um, I just think is a really interesting take and the whole thing is framed as just this kind of 299 00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:23,700 Wicked comedy just like 300 00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:28,900 Evil things that you find funny in it, you know characters like having their hands locked off and stuff 301 00:23:29,540 --> 00:23:31,220 it's 302 00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:33,220 Just a very very unusual 303 00:23:33,220 --> 00:23:38,900 Piece of doctor who in a very weird piece for peter davison, but in a great kind of challenging way 304 00:23:39,380 --> 00:23:42,020 and yeah, the part three cliffhanger just 305 00:23:42,980 --> 00:23:46,900 Oh god, like the fact I don't think I was spoiled the first time I heard that 306 00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:50,420 I feel very pleased about that just to get to that point and go 307 00:23:51,460 --> 00:23:55,780 I don't know what I was doing the last three episodes. I was completely wrong and it's so rare that 308 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:58,500 you know the rug pull like that, but 309 00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:03,780 But yeah, I think omega it's it's not the most kind of obviously sort of 310 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:10,660 Fan-pleasing one of the three. I mean we'll get into like why those other two might have more of that to offer but 311 00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:14,660 It's it's kind of the oddest one in in some ways and I think 312 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,180 Revisiting it is always a very pleasant experience and going god. That was that was really interesting 313 00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:24,580 Uh, yeah, so for the 40th, I think uh, yeah big finish 314 00:24:24,580 --> 00:24:28,580 Did did did well, you know for us think we were quite lucky 315 00:24:29,860 --> 00:24:32,420 Certainly started strong. Um, it's 316 00:24:33,060 --> 00:24:37,060 That that douglas adams comparison is very interesting because i've made it before as well 317 00:24:37,060 --> 00:24:43,860 I've sort of said if if we've got douglas adams at big finish is nef fountain and he's fantastic comedy writer and 318 00:24:44,260 --> 00:24:49,780 I'm a big big dead ringers fan. So sort of listen to other things. He does as well 319 00:24:49,780 --> 00:24:52,500 I'm gonna i'm gonna plug his books as well. If you ever read, uh, 320 00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:56,900 He did those mervin stone books geek. Tragedy is they're all very good 321 00:24:56,900 --> 00:25:01,940 But geek tragedy is just like the perfect i've not been to many doctor who conventions, but that is it 322 00:25:01,940 --> 00:25:06,100 That is exactly the experience. So it's really i'm gonna have to look that up then 323 00:25:06,820 --> 00:25:09,380 Is there anything you'd like to add about omega? 324 00:25:10,260 --> 00:25:11,460 Joe 325 00:25:11,460 --> 00:25:12,900 um, I 326 00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,380 I haven't listened to them in 20 years 327 00:25:15,940 --> 00:25:19,220 But I remember when it came out, I didn't know nev at the time at all 328 00:25:19,220 --> 00:25:23,220 Um, and we're good friends now, but i'm then I can't remember when I did first meet him 329 00:25:23,380 --> 00:25:26,580 But I remember listening to omega when it came out and being slightly like 330 00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:30,340 Oh, that's so good. Oh, no 331 00:25:31,140 --> 00:25:32,580 What's going on? 332 00:25:32,580 --> 00:25:34,100 um, but I think 333 00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:39,540 One of the things I did love about the villain trilogy generally was I think other than the excellus thing 334 00:25:39,540 --> 00:25:44,980 It was the first time they were doing full stories without companions and I think that allowed 335 00:25:45,940 --> 00:25:47,940 You to do a full story without companions 336 00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:49,940 and I think that allowed you 337 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:53,060 to do a different type of story, so 338 00:25:53,780 --> 00:26:00,820 It allowed nev to do a story that can do the episode 3 cliffhanger, which it wouldn't have been able to do if 339 00:26:01,220 --> 00:26:02,660 nester had been there 340 00:26:02,660 --> 00:26:04,660 um, and I think that's 341 00:26:05,220 --> 00:26:09,220 Just the genius of nev. Um, I think what a genius idea to do 342 00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:14,500 You know, he's really clearly sat down and gone what can I do that 343 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:18,740 Come up with this astonishing. I think one of the biggest and best 344 00:26:19,780 --> 00:26:22,580 Beats that's ever happened in a big finished story to this day 345 00:26:22,660 --> 00:26:26,340 I think it's so clever and I just remember finding the story really really funny 346 00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:29,700 Um, because I don't I hate time lords. I hate 347 00:26:30,660 --> 00:26:32,660 They should always be gone 348 00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:38,180 And to do a story that's a comedy involving the time lords. I think it's such a clever idea 349 00:26:38,740 --> 00:26:39,620 um 350 00:26:39,620 --> 00:26:42,680 So yeah, no, I think it's a an a an astonishing 351 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,560 Uh piece of work. I think it's very clever very funny and very sad at plays as well 352 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,080 There's a real the other thing nev does is there's always actually real emotion in it as well 353 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,240 It's not for just sitcom. Um, there's always a bit of depth to it as well 354 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:56,680 um 355 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,960 He's done a companion chronicle called perry in the piscom paradox 356 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:04,920 I think it's called and that's an astonishing piece of work again very clever very funny but real 357 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,120 emotion and emotional maturity to it 358 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:13,160 Uh, which he brings to his to his writing and yes, I very much recommend is it mervin? 359 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:17,240 Stone stone. Yeah, i've got where have I got i've got them 360 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:24,440 Behind me somewhere. Um, oh up there. Yes, um, and he's just got a new book out that's come out this year 361 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:26,520 um 362 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,800 Which I can't remember the name of um, but I know i'm getting it for christmas 363 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,960 Uh, so, um, I can quickly look because it's on my christ 364 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:36,360 wishlist 365 00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:39,080 Um, but the fan who knew too much 366 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,720 Which I think is the start of a new 367 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:47,400 Uh series he's doing um, which I can guarantee if it's anything as good as mervin 368 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,960 Stone is going to be a brilliant 369 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,760 Glorious read I think i'm just sold on the name of that one. I think on the name alone. Yeah, it's such a great name 370 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:03,800 It's worth coming for yeah. Yeah again. He wrote I think he's very good like a bit like he does with the time lords in omega nev 371 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,800 I've write about fan culture 372 00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:12,600 Rightfully mocking it for many things even though he is, you know as big a nerd as anybody but also 373 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:20,360 Gets the actual heart of why people are fans and why we love doctor who and why we're sitting here talking about it 374 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,440 You know things that I think he's very good 375 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,240 being able to 376 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:30,120 Laugh at himself and at fans while at the same time never laughing 377 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:34,360 Laughing sorry laughing with them but never laughing at them. I think it's what he he does 378 00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:36,920 It's very clever and he does that I think with omega 379 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,200 I think all the stuff about time travel and the time lords and stuff in that if I remember rightly is very much 380 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,480 Aren't the time lords a bit boring? 381 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,360 But isn't it fun that they exist and we love them, you know, we love the nonsense of 382 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,120 You know 383 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,440 The people around that table in the five doctors, you know, there's so much joy to be had about them 384 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,360 Um, so I think yeah, he's a he's a really really brilliant writer 385 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,280 I just I like to think that he looked at that, you know those around the table in the five doctors and went 386 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,440 What if they went on holiday? 387 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,920 Exactly, you know, it's fantastic. It's brilliant because again, it's so doctor who 388 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,720 You know doctor who trying to do 389 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,840 this mysterious race of godlike beings 390 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,840 And it's three actors sat around the lit up table and all sat on one side because it's studio setter 391 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,360 You know and saying the most bobbins lines you've ever heard, you know 392 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,600 And that's that's the joy of doctor who is that when he tries to do 393 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,480 You know, it's better when it's not doing it. So when it does do it, it's great fun 394 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,480 Yeah 395 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,840 Absolutely 396 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,160 Um, so so that's one strong story down in our in our villains trilogy 397 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:52,200 Um, let's let's move on straight to story number two then which is the collin baker entry into the trilogy. It is 398 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,360 davros 399 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,360 um this 400 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:03,400 I really really love the basic idea of this story, which is well what happens when davros is there but the daleks aren't 401 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,800 which is ultimately the 402 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,200 You know the sort of catch of this story 403 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:09,880 um 404 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,240 and it's great it leads into sort of a lot of the stuff that 405 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:21,400 As far as I can gather it's set before revelation of the daleks and revelation of the daleks kind of serves as a sequel to this 406 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:27,720 um, i'm happy to be corrected if either of you have any of course a reference that i've not or anything like that, but 407 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:33,000 Um, I really like the idea of sort of davros goes corporate 408 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,760 um, it's it's such a great concept and 409 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:43,320 You know, I think this is the first one terry mulloy did for big finish as davros. So it's 410 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,680 It's amazing how he just picks that character up 411 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:52,680 And it's exactly the character that we had in revelation the daleks and to a lesser extent I guess remembrance the daleks 412 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,360 um 15 years after all of that and 413 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:02,200 Straight away. He is davros completely and totally davros totally recognizable amazing is the character 414 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,560 But doing something totally different. This is really 415 00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:08,180 uncharted territory for davros and 416 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,840 when when he's not got 417 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:16,920 An army of daleks to order around or he's not got to scheme against his own creations. He's kind of 418 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,840 Left to scheme and manipulate other people 419 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,240 um 420 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:29,960 And the results are just brilliant and i'm really glad that this story exists as far as i'm aware. We've not had another 421 00:31:30,660 --> 00:31:32,840 dalek-less davros story 422 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,440 Um, I feel like it's something i've seen but I can't 423 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,840 Yeah, it's 424 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,080 It feels like something that i've done again 425 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:47,160 Because this is so good, but i'm not I can't think of anything off the top of my head right now 426 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,120 um and 427 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:57,080 Part of me sort of wants them to do another one and part of me doesn't because it's never going to be as good as davros is 428 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,180 So it's i'm kind of torn on that one. Um, so gareth talk to us about davros 429 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,680 Um, I think this might be 430 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,800 either 431 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:13,960 Either the first big finish story I ever heard or one of the first few a friend sent me copies of a couple 432 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,960 I've bought them all since just to be clear 433 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:22,680 Um, but a couple it was the holy terror spare parts and davros. So he set the bar 434 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:31,160 Unfairly high I would say but uh, but no, no, no, it's all been great since but um, but yeah davros is is another 435 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,640 Knockout really. Uh, it's interesting. Uh, joe you mentioned that um 436 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:41,720 You know, this is the doctorless thing and that's something I think we've seen so much of since especially on tv series 437 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,960 Because you know christmas is they'll go 438 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:49,640 It's it's a between period we can we can have that um that you kind of forget how weird it was 439 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:55,960 Back at the time, but it works really well for these three stories because it gives the doctor the excuse to just 440 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,040 Crystallize and like zero in on like why I don't like that guy or you know 441 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,840 I think the problem is going to be here. So it's it's a it's an interesting kind of production 442 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,520 Uh choice that you you know, don't necessarily really notice. It's being important as a listener 443 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,560 Um, but yeah, it really frees the story up 444 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:21,320 So the doctor can just be the the greatest pain he can possibly be and in this he is an absolute sod 445 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,200 Just just horrible to davros all the all the way through 446 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,560 Um, it's fantastic. Uh johnson like you were saying 447 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:35,480 Uh with with davros gets a job is is the the the byline of this and I think that's hilarious. Um, it does kind of really 448 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:42,600 Uh, it feels like the same sort of space as as revelation of the darlings that it's it's very season 22 the kind of 449 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,880 Corporate nastiness was very big back then 450 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:47,640 um 451 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:55,320 And yeah, you know, there's this this idea that davros might might be going straight maybe towards the end of the story 452 00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:01,560 He says he was trying to go straight. I don't think that's necessarily true, but he might even believe that 453 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:09,080 Um, but it's a really great story for kind of showing the sort of lengths of his character and the kind of um 454 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:16,760 You know the extremes because I think it all goes back to to you know, good old michael wisher and the bit with uh, 455 00:34:17,240 --> 00:34:21,880 Yes, I would I would press that button and I would do it and you know screw everyone 456 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:27,640 I would do it just so that I could say i've done it and this story has a few examples of like exactly that and you know 457 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,120 There's a bit where he comes up with this formula that will allow him to 458 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,720 Uh, just completely wreck the stock market if if he feels like it or more importantly 459 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,400 Uh rig it so he could be incredibly rich and people around him are like 460 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:46,280 Oh, wow, you've come up with this incredible thing that will allow you to be incredibly rich and and he's just like 461 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:47,960 Yeah, I guess 462 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:54,600 Yeah, I guess it's it's better that I just use it because I can just create chaos. It's as long as we're clear 463 00:34:54,760 --> 00:35:00,040 I want to use it. That's that's him. He he just wants to do the thing because he's discovered how to do it 464 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,040 There's a wonderful. Um 465 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,960 Flashback in it where he just he describes his uh 466 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,960 His sort of incineration back when that happened and he became the the disfigured creature he is 467 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,200 Um, and he says that he could see he looked at his hand and he could see his skeleton 468 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:22,520 And he started just wiggling his fingers so he could watch them move and like the idea of being that far gone 469 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,680 It's like a scientific 470 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,760 Absolutionist that you're like i'm in tremendous pain, but this is cool and he just doesn't care 471 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:30,280 um 472 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,240 so that's all fascinating and we get kind of and i've really no idea how the kind of um 473 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,040 How the relationship between this story and the eye devos series works 474 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,440 I don't know if that was already kind of on the on the go because that came a few years later 475 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,760 But we see these little chunks of his life that would sort of get revisited in that series 476 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,880 And again, we kind of see kind of hints of his his true character and he's kind of like 477 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,360 He he likes to explore ideas to their to their horrible conclusion 478 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,680 But we also see hints of him as an emotional being he has 479 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,800 Is it shan or shaan this person in his life? 480 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:09,400 um 481 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,000 Who ultimately he betrays and has killed? 482 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:13,960 um 483 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,040 I want to say because he finds out she's sleeping with somebody who isn't him 484 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:23,480 That's that's not the reason he thinks it is he thinks it's you know, he's got this whole psychosis where he's like 485 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,720 Oh, no, this this guy must be a traitor and therefore you're a traitor. He's worked it all out 486 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:34,440 But um this this horrible truth that he doesn't want to face is that well actually he quite likes this person 487 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,440 And she doesn't feel that way about him 488 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:43,960 So and he's just desperate not to face that and the idea that davros could have this incredibly human motivation 489 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:52,280 Just buried under all of this stuff and you know to survive that he's absolutely determined to believe that um 490 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,080 No, I don't have anything. I don't have any emotions at all. I am a monster. You know 491 00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:03,480 Thank you doctor for for trying but no, no, I i'm gonna stick with evil and it's just 492 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:09,000 And it's just you just don't buy it by the end of the story. You think this is this is a this is a 493 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,560 man with problems and 494 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,160 He's he's allowed himself to be overcome by these 495 00:37:16,020 --> 00:37:18,020 Monstrous impulses that he does have 496 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:19,640 um 497 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,920 And yeah at one point he kind of refers to the doctor as being the closest thing 498 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,680 He's ever had to a friend which is just fascinating obviously 499 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,560 You know colin's doctor 500 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:34,120 Not really gonna help that impulse along unfortunately because he's not very nice to it 501 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,520 Um, yeah, it's it's a tremendously kind of well cast audio 502 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,440 Um, I haven't checked this is is it bernard horsefall? 503 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,240 Is that yes? Yes, when we're getting that wrong? Yeah, every time I listen to it, I think 504 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,960 Was he still around? Did they really have bernard horse? Because he I love bernard 505 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,360 He's amazing and anything he's in but he's great in this because you get to see some of that. Um 506 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,960 um kind of evil corporate characters who are you know, 507 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,840 Maybe as bad as he is they kind of as the story goes on 508 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:11,160 Uh him and wendy padbury who apparently can do evil very convincingly 509 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,160 Um, they get to kind of mellow a bit as they kind of go. Okay. Wow 510 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,800 I knew he'd be bad, but I didn't think he'd be that bad 511 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,680 but um, there's there's a great early scene where um 512 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:27,640 Um bernard's character has just been systematically killing people on this spaceship until one of them could open the door 513 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,080 It's like well, I hope you get it right because i'm running out of guys here 514 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:38,360 Um, so that's it's a it's a great dynamic and they kind of have this awkward relationship with the doctor where he's um 515 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,800 You know, he's he's trying to just go well, I can just do all of the amazing stuff that you need done 516 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,040 You don't need davros and they want both of them, of course 517 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:51,800 Um, yeah, and it's it's funny too. I mean I would say in a kind of distinct way from omega 518 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,840 It's got a kind of season 22 519 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,680 uh 520 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:03,080 Terrible people just just being dreadful kind of comedy workplace awkwardness the doctor, you know 521 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,440 Jamming screwdrivers in his ear to get out an annoying little voice in his head. Um 522 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,040 Yeah, I would say it's probably of the three 523 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:19,880 The least sympathetic to the villain character, but I think in suggesting that he has these depths that even he 524 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,680 Is just not remotely in ready to kind of look at or interrogate 525 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:30,760 Uh in a way, I think it's it's just as sympathetic because it's just kind of going well 526 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,080 He's never gonna get any better 527 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,080 but uh, you know 528 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,600 He's he's not as evil as the doctor thinks he is or as he thinks he is and that is 529 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,840 Is sadly a comfort to him to think he's basically a Dalek 530 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,560 but um, yeah, so 531 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,120 It's pretty strong. I think pretty good. So yeah, it's 532 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:58,040 Some really interesting points there. Like first of all, yes, it's a fantastically cast story and 533 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,440 As you say bernard horsefall just could never do any wrong 534 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,480 um, and I kind of love 535 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,040 him and wendy pampery is this sort of 536 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,540 Oligarchal double act 537 00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:15,020 Um, they're absolutely fantastic. They make such a great pair 538 00:40:16,060 --> 00:40:18,060 and it's 539 00:40:18,140 --> 00:40:21,500 It really is a good character study into davros and you know 540 00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:25,180 We do get to see a side of him that we really really don't anywhere else 541 00:40:25,740 --> 00:40:27,260 um 542 00:40:27,260 --> 00:40:31,900 You couldn't do this story with daleks. The whole point of it is daleks aren't there 543 00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:36,700 But it doesn't make a big thing about the daleks not being there. It's it's it's 544 00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:38,700 very much a case of 545 00:40:39,020 --> 00:40:41,020 Davros is just doing 546 00:40:41,260 --> 00:40:44,620 What he's doing and the fact that the daleks aren't there don't affect him 547 00:40:45,340 --> 00:40:50,860 Um, and i'm you know, it would have got in the way if we'd have had nothing but oh, but I need my daleks 548 00:40:50,860 --> 00:40:55,020 Where my daleks i'm going to build some more daleks you i'm going to turn you into a dalek 549 00:40:55,500 --> 00:41:01,420 Which is what we get with anything else with davros in you know, we we have done experimental stuff with davros 550 00:41:01,420 --> 00:41:04,460 I mean joe you've done it yourself in terra firma 551 00:41:04,460 --> 00:41:07,740 Sort of with his identity crisis in that and that kind of thing 552 00:41:08,380 --> 00:41:12,460 Um, you know, we've had uh, is it the curse of is it the curse of davros? 553 00:41:12,460 --> 00:41:19,500 The right one where yeah another colin one the one where him and colin do swap season the episode two cliffhanger is 554 00:41:20,780 --> 00:41:25,500 The doctor was davros all along and that kind of thing freaky friday with davros 555 00:41:27,420 --> 00:41:32,300 It's really good freaky friday with davros i've never heard it referred to as that before but that's 556 00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:34,300 Fantastic. Yes. Um 557 00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:37,980 So yeah, it's a great story and I I do think that 558 00:41:38,620 --> 00:41:39,900 omega 559 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:43,740 Could never have fit into season 20 560 00:41:44,620 --> 00:41:47,020 It is not a season 20 story at all 561 00:41:47,580 --> 00:41:55,340 But davros could have fit into season 22. It could have fit, you know nicely in there just after the two doctors or whatever 562 00:41:55,340 --> 00:42:01,420 Um, it's it's it's a very obvious here of a story. It does have that theme of corporate greed, which 563 00:42:02,140 --> 00:42:04,540 Does sort of run through quite a few stories in 564 00:42:05,340 --> 00:42:12,460 Season 22 so it's quite interesting that it's this one flies a little bit closer to home than omega does 565 00:42:13,180 --> 00:42:15,180 um and 566 00:42:15,180 --> 00:42:16,700 I mean masters 567 00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:20,860 Totally unlike anything in the mccoy era, but we'll we'll get to that in a minute 568 00:42:20,860 --> 00:42:24,300 Um joe is there anything you'd like to add about davros at all? 569 00:42:25,260 --> 00:42:28,060 Uh, I remember it had the best trailer 570 00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:30,700 big finish had ever had 571 00:42:31,020 --> 00:42:34,220 Um, because I think lance had written a speech for davros 572 00:42:34,860 --> 00:42:40,940 No, no, he hadn't no because it's it jim mortimer does the sound design. So I think it might 573 00:42:41,660 --> 00:42:45,420 Be a jim mortimer thing because he did the music and the sound for the rapture 574 00:42:45,420 --> 00:42:52,460 Um, but I remember is the davros trailer was so effing brilliant. It was just so exciting 575 00:42:53,260 --> 00:43:00,940 Um, and also davros being back was exciting. Uh, and yeah, I'll remember it was just being uh, it being such a clever 576 00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:06,220 Scripts that's really about stuff. It's you know, all the stuff about 577 00:43:07,820 --> 00:43:11,660 Corporate greed and and all that sort of thing is actually jim mortimer's 578 00:43:11,660 --> 00:43:15,660 Um, and then I'll remember is I did listen to it a few times because yeah terra firma 579 00:43:16,620 --> 00:43:20,620 I wrote as a sequel to basically davros and remembrance of the daleks 580 00:43:21,260 --> 00:43:25,180 So there's a lot of stuff in terra firma of the doctor and davros talking 581 00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:30,620 That slightly acknowledges the thing in davros where he says you're the closest thing i've got to a friend 582 00:43:31,340 --> 00:43:34,780 Because obviously davros has had this long ridiculous 583 00:43:34,780 --> 00:43:41,820 Long life where everything he's ever known is dead except for the doctor. So for me, that was what you know 584 00:43:41,980 --> 00:43:45,740 That established in davros really did help mold terra firma 585 00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:51,180 Yeah, I remember just being brilliant really really clever 586 00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:54,700 Yeah, just really clever 587 00:43:56,540 --> 00:44:02,940 Yeah, it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just 588 00:44:02,940 --> 00:44:07,180 It's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just 589 00:44:08,140 --> 00:44:10,060 Yeah 590 00:44:10,060 --> 00:44:12,060 Yeah 591 00:44:13,100 --> 00:44:19,820 Yeah, it i've definitely picked up on that sort of terra firma following on from davros thing before it 592 00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:24,940 They're probably the two stories that explore the character the most I think 593 00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:32,060 Um, is it the juggernaut the other colin baker and davros story in which daffodils gets a job 594 00:44:32,060 --> 00:44:36,140 And uh the juggernauts mixed up occasionally because they do kind of do 595 00:44:36,780 --> 00:44:39,020 corporate davros both of them do 596 00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:41,900 um, but it's 597 00:44:42,940 --> 00:44:47,980 it's obviously a great idea it obviously works and it's worked very well in two very different ways and 598 00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:50,220 um 599 00:44:50,220 --> 00:44:52,540 Yeah, it's it's great that 600 00:44:53,340 --> 00:44:59,180 Obviously you did pick up on davros and you didn't work with that to get to get where you did with terra firma, which is 601 00:44:59,180 --> 00:45:02,380 Is like I say another great exploration of the character 602 00:45:03,180 --> 00:45:04,700 um 603 00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:09,020 And uh, we're joined by somebody else. We're joined by mansaur. Hello mansaur 604 00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:10,620 Hello 605 00:45:10,620 --> 00:45:14,940 Hello, thank you for for jumping on i'm glad you could join us even if it is a tad late 606 00:45:15,260 --> 00:45:18,780 So it's it's the seventh doctor's entry in this trilogy 607 00:45:18,860 --> 00:45:22,380 I mean first of all, I love the fact that this trilogy does cover 608 00:45:23,100 --> 00:45:28,780 The three classic doctors that big finish had at this time and obviously megan was doing megan things 609 00:45:28,780 --> 00:45:31,440 We've had a couple of series of him and we've got zegrayus 610 00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:34,700 Coming up after master, but it's 611 00:45:36,060 --> 00:45:38,940 It's really kind of great that this is what they did for 612 00:45:39,580 --> 00:45:44,620 Kind of those doctors in the 40th instead of the simas of time two or whatever 613 00:45:44,780 --> 00:45:49,340 You know the temptation must have been there to kind of go. Well, let's just do that again 614 00:45:50,220 --> 00:45:53,820 um, but they've not instead they've used it as an opportunity to 615 00:45:53,820 --> 00:45:58,940 To sort of explore what makes the doctor tick by exploring what makes his 616 00:45:59,820 --> 00:46:01,820 most iconic 617 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,580 adversaries 618 00:46:03,580 --> 00:46:05,020 and omega 619 00:46:05,020 --> 00:46:07,020 tick um 620 00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:11,660 So yeah, it's it is a wonderful trilogy. So we're on to master and 621 00:46:13,580 --> 00:46:20,860 We've sort of said that you know, um omega goes very much against just standard davidson. It's not a season 20 story 622 00:46:20,860 --> 00:46:26,700 Davros kind of plays to colin baker's strengths and could fit into season 22 623 00:46:27,740 --> 00:46:29,500 Uh master 624 00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:34,940 Is it fair to say it's it's a new adventure story. Is that kind of where you were aiming for with it joe or 625 00:46:36,060 --> 00:46:38,060 Yeah, I'd suppose so I was 626 00:46:38,940 --> 00:46:40,940 Given the fact that he would be 627 00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:46,300 I think the main thing I was slightly rebelled against was I was told it had to be on an alien planet not on earth 628 00:46:46,860 --> 00:46:48,860 and I didn't 629 00:46:48,940 --> 00:46:50,620 and 630 00:46:50,620 --> 00:46:52,700 I'm not necessarily a huge sci-fi fan 631 00:46:52,780 --> 00:46:56,860 I like things like doctor who and star trek because they tend to tell horror stories and 632 00:46:57,340 --> 00:47:01,020 And then there's a kitchen sink drama then it's a comedy then it's this I tend to like no 633 00:47:01,260 --> 00:47:08,060 I don't really I wouldn't you know, nobody got a massive interest in developing an exciting new alien culture planet thing 634 00:47:08,540 --> 00:47:10,540 um, so 635 00:47:11,180 --> 00:47:16,140 I had that and also I had I was given the thing that he'd lost his memory and the big thing for me 636 00:47:16,540 --> 00:47:18,540 Was trying to work out 637 00:47:18,540 --> 00:47:19,820 the 638 00:47:19,820 --> 00:47:26,460 Difference between omega and davros and the master is that omega and davros have backstories even if davros is is is an 639 00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:31,820 Much established prior pre genesis of the daleks. You do know that at some point 640 00:47:31,820 --> 00:47:35,900 He's been in accident. You do know about the war on scarrow that he's you know, omega 641 00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:41,500 We know pretty much his whole backstory or you know, certainly a big chunk of it of what defines him as a character 642 00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:47,580 With the master there hadn't been that any kind of exploration and also I kind of feel 643 00:47:47,580 --> 00:47:52,700 Because he was created as the doctor's moriarty. He doesn't really have a massive backstory 644 00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:56,380 So sometimes he wants to control the universe. Sometimes he wants to destroy things 645 00:47:56,380 --> 00:48:01,980 Sometimes he wants to it's all personal with the doctor. Sometimes the doctor just happens to bump into him, you know, so I felt he's 646 00:48:03,580 --> 00:48:08,700 Less of a character than omega and davros which meant I really had to go 647 00:48:08,700 --> 00:48:12,860 Well, what am I going to do because it's clearly meant to be a character exploring story 648 00:48:12,860 --> 00:48:15,260 So I thought back and I actually went back to um 649 00:48:15,260 --> 00:48:22,460 His first story the the autons and there's a scene in that which is must have been amazing to see at the time 650 00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:27,740 And still I think holds up really well, which is the scientist in the 651 00:48:29,180 --> 00:48:34,780 Is it a tower there's a is it a dish it's a dish isn't it? Yeah, the telescope telescope thing 652 00:48:34,780 --> 00:48:38,620 Yeah, and there's a scientist and he kills him and puts him in his lunchbox 653 00:48:39,340 --> 00:48:41,340 And I watched that and when 654 00:48:41,340 --> 00:48:45,900 The master doesn't need to do that. There's no reason for him to actually kill that scientist. He could knock him out 655 00:48:45,900 --> 00:48:49,740 He could do anything and we know actually that scientist has a wife and he's you know 656 00:48:49,740 --> 00:48:51,100 Of a boiled egg and things like that 657 00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:56,300 So actually it gives gives gives a little character and then the master kills him for no reason and I thought and actually 658 00:48:56,620 --> 00:48:59,900 That's what the master does the master kills people. So I basically 659 00:49:01,660 --> 00:49:04,860 Looked at serial killers, especially jeffrey darma 660 00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:09,580 And basically read a lot about jeffrey darma what made him become jeffrey darma 661 00:49:09,580 --> 00:49:13,980 And about that sort of first death that is wrong 662 00:49:13,980 --> 00:49:20,460 But if he got caught after the first death, he would not only would he have literally not been able to commit all the other murders 663 00:49:21,100 --> 00:49:23,500 But he mentally might not have done 664 00:49:24,060 --> 00:49:27,820 Because the first death I think that jeffrey darma does is is more of an accident 665 00:49:28,380 --> 00:49:32,460 And then and I suspect that's probably a case of a lot of killers, you know serial killers is 666 00:49:33,740 --> 00:49:34,860 Wait a minute 667 00:49:34,860 --> 00:49:37,340 This feels good and wait a minute. I'm okay doing this 668 00:49:37,340 --> 00:49:41,820 This is who I am and so it's kind of a justify it to yourself kind of thing 669 00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:45,020 So with the master when I decided I was going to do that 670 00:49:45,020 --> 00:49:51,340 I kind of thought back to the new adventures and thought about how they made the doctor times champion 671 00:49:52,540 --> 00:49:59,100 So would the master be death's champion if he's causing all this death if that's the one thing the master achieves in every story 672 00:49:59,660 --> 00:50:02,220 Is death that makes him death's champion? 673 00:50:02,860 --> 00:50:03,740 and 674 00:50:03,740 --> 00:50:10,780 I then realized I suppose yeah, and as somebody who'd enjoyed the new adventures that it was quite new adventure 675 00:50:11,100 --> 00:50:17,260 So I decided to set it on a planet with the adjudicators from from the books and things like that. So 676 00:50:18,140 --> 00:50:20,140 I could do a sort of basically it's 677 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,180 Victorian Edwardian earth, but it isn't really it's an alien planet 678 00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:31,180 Which is my sort of workaround of set it on an alien planet. So yeah, I think I knew it was quite new adventure 679 00:50:31,260 --> 00:50:33,100 but I think also 680 00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:38,220 It's so funny to think back like we're talking about this trilogy and you kind of you know 681 00:50:39,420 --> 00:50:41,420 There'd only been one master story 682 00:50:42,060 --> 00:50:47,420 Since survival they'd been just be oh, I think it did a couple of new adventures, but they'd been dust breeding and then 683 00:50:48,060 --> 00:50:49,260 master 684 00:50:49,260 --> 00:50:54,940 Davros hadn't been in it before whereas now like you say there's the juggernaut says the curse of davros says there's all these other davros stories 685 00:50:55,180 --> 00:50:56,940 so I think 686 00:50:56,940 --> 00:50:58,620 at that point 687 00:50:58,620 --> 00:51:05,340 I felt that the new adventures leading into the tv movie which i'd really enjoyed because I was really enjoying the new adventures 688 00:51:05,580 --> 00:51:10,460 Was very excited about the tv movie. So loved that sense that they did of leading up to 689 00:51:11,740 --> 00:51:14,620 And stopping just before so for me master was very upset 690 00:51:16,860 --> 00:51:18,860 After he's left 691 00:51:19,180 --> 00:51:20,380 Chris 692 00:51:20,380 --> 00:51:22,380 I don't know how to say surname 693 00:51:22,380 --> 00:51:28,540 Um, and he's traveling alone before lung barrow and stuff. So for me master was always is set in that world 694 00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:32,780 Um, so yeah, I suppose you would call it, you know, so new adventures, but also I think 695 00:51:34,540 --> 00:51:37,500 To be totally honest, I never really felt 696 00:51:38,860 --> 00:51:42,300 A big need to make them feel like they're off their period 697 00:51:42,780 --> 00:51:49,500 Um, I love it when they do. Um, I think it's so much fun when you hear a solvester. That's very clearly season 24 698 00:51:49,500 --> 00:51:52,780 Um, but I as a writer never really 699 00:51:53,420 --> 00:51:57,500 Did that with the rapture or the master or anything? I think that I did afterwards. I don't think I ever really 700 00:51:58,140 --> 00:52:01,260 Set out to go. How can I make it feel like it's part of season? 701 00:52:02,460 --> 00:52:04,140 Whatever it is 702 00:52:04,140 --> 00:52:10,700 So it's very long winding answer. Sorry. Yeah, it's basically yes. I probably went down more of the omega way of yeah, it's not 703 00:52:12,540 --> 00:52:16,700 You know, i'm not i'm not going this is season, you know, he's just dropped ace off 704 00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:19,340 I think that probably works to its advantage though 705 00:52:19,340 --> 00:52:23,740 It's the fact that I mean the seventh daughter has a lot of eras doesn't it? There's something you know 706 00:52:24,380 --> 00:52:28,460 Everyone likes to point at the seventh daughter and go. Oh, yeah, that was season 24. That was 707 00:52:29,100 --> 00:52:31,740 Shortly after survival. Oh, that was towards the end of his life 708 00:52:33,020 --> 00:52:36,700 And it's I like the fact that with the seventh daughter we've 709 00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:40,060 I mean we can probably work out it is towards the end of his life 710 00:52:40,060 --> 00:52:44,860 But he's got this sort of muddy period where all sorts of stuff happens and he's got this sort of 711 00:52:44,860 --> 00:52:46,940 All sorts of stuff happens and he's 712 00:52:47,980 --> 00:52:52,300 sort of a terrible person to varying levels and all that kind of thing and 713 00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:56,300 I like the fact that it's still sort of shrouded in mystery after 714 00:52:57,180 --> 00:53:00,780 Even now, you know, even though big finish have tried to pick it out and they've tried to 715 00:53:01,340 --> 00:53:03,740 Sort of go well this happens here and this happens there 716 00:53:04,780 --> 00:53:06,540 and it's 717 00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:08,540 It's certainly like a nice 718 00:53:08,540 --> 00:53:16,060 Sort of vague idea, but it's I think that is something the new adventures did. I'm not overly familiar with them 719 00:53:16,060 --> 00:53:18,060 I've read a few but not many 720 00:53:18,620 --> 00:53:21,820 But they do have this sort of very unique feel 721 00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:24,460 and I think 722 00:53:24,460 --> 00:53:27,500 master certainly leans more towards those than 723 00:53:28,220 --> 00:53:30,460 season 24 at any rate. Yes 724 00:53:31,340 --> 00:53:36,460 Well, I think there was a thing in the new adventures if I remember rightly again, I've not read them in years, but 725 00:53:36,460 --> 00:53:40,380 There was a sense of the seventh doctor novels wrapping up things 726 00:53:41,020 --> 00:53:43,980 Yeah, that the seventh doctor was fixing things 727 00:53:44,540 --> 00:53:49,580 Because he knew his time was coming to an end and I think that was my thing with master was 728 00:53:49,900 --> 00:53:53,100 He knew his time was coming to an end. So he made a deal with death 729 00:53:53,660 --> 00:53:55,660 to to give the master 730 00:53:56,780 --> 00:53:59,500 Ten years, I think of of a nice life 731 00:53:59,500 --> 00:54:05,580 Yeah, so that's really interesting because I didn't know that about kind of mentally placing in the new adventures 732 00:54:05,580 --> 00:54:09,500 I did read them all quite recently. I had never read them 733 00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:15,180 I completely missed that whole period and then I picked them up because of big finish because they did love a war and I thought 734 00:54:15,180 --> 00:54:17,180 Oh, okay. What else happens and read them all? 735 00:54:17,900 --> 00:54:24,540 Yeah, definitely towards the end. The seventh doctor is is very much trying to get his house in order and also 736 00:54:25,020 --> 00:54:27,020 I think trying to 737 00:54:27,020 --> 00:54:32,860 Kind of atone really I think after once you reach that point where where ace leaves for good this time 738 00:54:32,860 --> 00:54:38,460 I think he's kind of the the book range as well as the character has kind of grown up a bit 739 00:54:38,460 --> 00:54:42,220 And kind of learned to you don't need to be angsty all the time 740 00:54:42,220 --> 00:54:47,100 But in that context, this is this is interesting because that means he's kind of like 741 00:54:48,300 --> 00:54:54,860 This one's gonna be rough and he's like, okay. I'll I'll step off the I'm not that bad actually train and 742 00:54:55,420 --> 00:54:59,100 Yeah, so over here to something that we learn 743 00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:04,700 Is is one of the the sort of darker nastier things about him that he didn't necessarily know 744 00:55:05,420 --> 00:55:06,460 Yeah 745 00:55:06,460 --> 00:55:12,620 Which is by the way, I mean, this is kind of jumping ahead really but that's that's quite a controversial choice. I would say 746 00:55:12,620 --> 00:55:14,620 It's a kind of go 747 00:55:15,580 --> 00:55:17,580 The doctor I suppose yeah 748 00:55:18,460 --> 00:55:19,980 It didn't 749 00:55:19,980 --> 00:55:25,820 I didn't think it was that controversial because I didn't think there'd be that many more stories. So I think 750 00:55:25,820 --> 00:55:30,540 You know, I felt I don't think we knew the tv series was coming back. Did we at that point? 751 00:55:30,860 --> 00:55:33,580 So I think we didn't know there was going to be a new tv series 752 00:55:35,900 --> 00:55:38,460 At that point big finish was 12 stories a year 753 00:55:41,100 --> 00:55:43,100 So I felt the likelihood of 754 00:55:43,500 --> 00:55:47,820 Ever ever, you know with sylvestre and jeffrey beavers ever do another audio together 755 00:55:47,820 --> 00:55:50,700 I didn't you know, whereas now obviously they've done loads because 756 00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:57,100 Big finish does a lot more stories. So so it starts to actually have more of an impact. Whereas I think actually if it had been this one-off thing 757 00:55:57,900 --> 00:56:02,620 You'd have gone. Oh, you know, I don't like that. But you know, it's happened. Whereas. Yeah, I think 758 00:56:03,180 --> 00:56:08,620 I didn't I wasn't bothered about doing it. Um, and the thing for me was it was um 759 00:56:09,500 --> 00:56:12,460 What's most interesting for the character? What's most interesting? 760 00:56:13,100 --> 00:56:20,060 For both characters the main characters the main characters the main characters the main characters the main characters 761 00:56:20,060 --> 00:56:26,140 The main characters, um, and that was the most interesting thing I could think of. Um, I thought it was 762 00:56:26,940 --> 00:56:30,940 And basically what I was doing was it is absolutely a reference to an unearthly child 763 00:56:31,820 --> 00:56:32,780 um 764 00:56:32,780 --> 00:56:34,300 it's literally 765 00:56:34,300 --> 00:56:37,340 The doctor is going to smash someone's head in with a rock 766 00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:38,780 um 767 00:56:38,780 --> 00:56:41,820 In an unearthly child and it turns out according to what? 768 00:56:42,620 --> 00:56:46,860 His vague memories or dreams or what the master says are is that that's what he did as a child 769 00:56:46,860 --> 00:56:49,900 Um, so it wouldn't be so the caveman wouldn't have been his first one 770 00:56:50,700 --> 00:56:52,700 Um, if only he'd had an ian 771 00:56:53,260 --> 00:56:59,420 Yeah, exactly. And and my whole point was they're both they're children in it. They are 772 00:57:00,140 --> 00:57:04,060 very specifically children. They are nobody neither of them have set out to 773 00:57:04,940 --> 00:57:09,260 Do anything? Um, you know, and they've been taken advantage of by death, but it's all 774 00:57:11,420 --> 00:57:15,180 A story, you know, it's like I genuinely I haven't again not heard it in years 775 00:57:15,180 --> 00:57:17,180 But if I remember rightly, it's all 776 00:57:17,260 --> 00:57:19,260 quite 777 00:57:19,260 --> 00:57:23,340 We don't hear we don't see it happen. It's not like the davros flashbacks. We don't actually 778 00:57:24,300 --> 00:57:30,780 Get a very clear scene of it happening. We get a child saying stuff and things like that, but it's all told us a story 779 00:57:31,100 --> 00:57:33,100 So yeah, I mean 780 00:57:33,340 --> 00:57:36,060 It's probably been contradicted by a million things by now 781 00:57:36,060 --> 00:57:42,380 But you know that's such a for me again, I'm I'm less it's a bit like not making it fit into a certain style or season 782 00:57:42,940 --> 00:57:44,700 um 783 00:57:44,700 --> 00:57:46,700 I'm less interested in 784 00:57:47,420 --> 00:57:49,420 I don't care if someone 785 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:56,460 Contradicts master or people think it doesn't happen for me for that story. It had to be that very simple 786 00:57:57,340 --> 00:57:59,340 switch of the characters 787 00:57:59,900 --> 00:58:05,580 To explain the doctor and the master's actions in the story if it hadn't been that then it wouldn't have been a very good story 788 00:58:06,220 --> 00:58:09,500 Or it would have been a weaker story. I think and I think when you're doing a 789 00:58:10,460 --> 00:58:12,300 You know an audio drama 790 00:58:12,300 --> 00:58:17,340 Whether it's part of a series or not you you go for what is that best story? Not what? 791 00:58:18,700 --> 00:58:24,460 Fits in with something else or or does that while still I think staying consistent to the characters, you know again 792 00:58:24,700 --> 00:58:30,940 I probably wouldn't have done that if it hadn't been sylvestre's seventh doctor, which had gone very dark in the new adventures 793 00:58:31,420 --> 00:58:35,340 Um and was hinted at going dark in in the tv series, you know 794 00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:39,900 I wouldn't have done that if I was writing a you know, if it had been a peter davison story 795 00:58:39,900 --> 00:58:41,900 um, I don't think I would have 796 00:58:42,540 --> 00:58:45,920 Felt that that fitted in with the current the existing characterization 797 00:58:47,420 --> 00:58:50,620 it's interesting that it is sylvestre because um 798 00:58:51,500 --> 00:58:53,260 He's effectively 799 00:58:53,260 --> 00:58:55,580 He's he's one manipulation ahead of himself 800 00:58:56,220 --> 00:59:00,620 Uh, because this is famously the doctor, you know chess player and all of that and in this one we find out 801 00:59:01,180 --> 00:59:05,340 You know, there was a time when he did something that even he has deleted. Yeah 802 00:59:05,340 --> 00:59:10,540 Uh, yeah, that's that's a great idea. When I was listening to these three again, um 803 00:59:11,340 --> 00:59:13,340 with this story there is kind of the 804 00:59:14,380 --> 00:59:19,180 Forgive me. There is the little fan voice at the head that's like oh, I don't like this. The doctor's a bad guy 805 00:59:19,980 --> 00:59:24,780 You know, it's it's the childish fan voice. Uh, but I thought what was really interesting was once it got into it 806 00:59:25,180 --> 00:59:25,980 um 807 00:59:25,980 --> 00:59:33,660 The doctor already feels bad because in his version of events he uh, he didn't kill anybody but he effectively 808 00:59:33,660 --> 00:59:37,660 You know there was a cover-up. He worked towards that. He knows it was wrong 809 00:59:37,980 --> 00:59:42,620 So either way he's leaving gala fray a guilty man and that's part of that 810 00:59:43,100 --> 00:59:46,300 So then to later on find out well, actually it was the other thing 811 00:59:46,860 --> 00:59:51,740 Um kind of doesn't really change that it's still the same and I thought it was very interesting. Um 812 00:59:52,460 --> 00:59:54,860 Similar in a way. I don't know 813 00:59:55,180 --> 01:00:00,540 Well similar to omega in that there's kind of this cross pollination between the two characters the doctor and the villain 814 01:00:00,540 --> 01:00:06,780 And in this one very very explicitly. It's kind of a there but by the grace of god thing where it's just 815 01:00:07,340 --> 01:00:09,340 You know the doctor and the master 816 01:00:09,820 --> 01:00:12,860 They're different people but they could have had very different lives 817 01:00:12,860 --> 01:00:16,860 If not for this thing and you know that you've written in the thing where the doctor kind of goes 818 01:00:17,420 --> 01:00:23,580 How can anyone forgive me for this? This is appalling and the master's like we were kids. It's it's it's not great 819 01:00:23,580 --> 01:00:25,580 But you know and this this figure 820 01:00:25,980 --> 01:00:28,060 That exists took advantage of us. So 821 01:00:28,060 --> 01:00:30,060 so yeah, I think um 822 01:00:30,060 --> 01:00:33,900 It's a great kind of study of that and kind of the whole thing is just 823 01:00:34,220 --> 01:00:40,540 Very very themed about the motives of evil and how all these people are kind of and that's interesting that you're saying about that 824 01:00:40,540 --> 01:00:44,460 That like dharma was going through your head when you were writing it, you know, well, there we go 825 01:00:44,460 --> 01:00:47,260 There's there's a person where motives don't really enter into it 826 01:00:47,260 --> 01:00:52,540 And you've got these characters all kind of talking about murders and stuff going like why do people do these things? 827 01:00:52,540 --> 01:00:55,820 And the idea that there is this death force that just kind of 828 01:00:55,820 --> 01:00:59,020 Manipulates you but even under that there are moments where um 829 01:00:59,900 --> 01:01:05,980 It's interestingly the master kind of isn't in this really or not. Not very much. We've got the person but um 830 01:01:06,540 --> 01:01:12,060 The the voice only comes out a few times and um, there are moments where he's like, oh no, shut up 831 01:01:12,060 --> 01:01:15,500 I did it all and he's he's he kind of doesn't agree with death 832 01:01:15,500 --> 01:01:20,780 And that's that's another thing that it kind of shares with with davros really that you've got this character 833 01:01:20,780 --> 01:01:27,020 Who's got these these motivations and they're like, yeah, well, that's one version. Um, yeah, and I think that's great 834 01:01:27,020 --> 01:01:29,020 I do think yeah separate from that 835 01:01:29,580 --> 01:01:31,660 Yeah, no, I was just gonna say as I think no 836 01:01:31,660 --> 01:01:37,260 I do think I it was probably again a conscious decision of mine to have him as a different character because I thought the master isn't 837 01:01:37,260 --> 01:01:39,260 someone who believe would sit down and 838 01:01:40,300 --> 01:01:41,500 discuss 839 01:01:41,500 --> 01:01:45,260 Things with well, maybe he would but I don't know I just I 840 01:01:46,060 --> 01:01:48,700 I grew up with Anthony Ailey's master who I adore 841 01:01:48,700 --> 01:01:51,740 But he is batshit crazy. You know, he is not 842 01:01:52,060 --> 01:01:55,340 Someone who's gonna sit down and go. Oh doctor. Let's talk about the themes of evil 843 01:01:56,220 --> 01:02:01,340 Or let's talk about our childhoods, you know, um, so I suppose I grew up because I grew up with that 844 01:02:02,140 --> 01:02:02,700 Um 845 01:02:02,700 --> 01:02:08,140 For me in the case of master it wasn't like whereas I would believe the doctrine davros because we've seen them do it 846 01:02:08,380 --> 01:02:13,980 The doctrine davros have had proper conversations in the tv series. You know, omega is a very 847 01:02:13,980 --> 01:02:19,100 Not relatable necessarily character, but he is a character with a very understandable backstory 848 01:02:19,660 --> 01:02:25,980 That I can understand even in the three doctors. You can understand the tragedy of of his character. Whereas the master, you know, 849 01:02:26,540 --> 01:02:28,540 wears disguises for no reason and 850 01:02:29,580 --> 01:02:31,580 You know, yeah 851 01:02:32,300 --> 01:02:36,380 It's the best thing in the five doctors, which is a story full of many many best things 852 01:02:36,380 --> 01:02:38,380 But he's absolutely one of the best things in it 853 01:02:38,780 --> 01:02:42,220 Because he's just glorious and I you know and Anthony Ailey's scale is just 854 01:02:42,220 --> 01:02:44,620 Glorious and I you know and Anthony and he scared me as a kid 855 01:02:44,620 --> 01:02:49,740 I mean he was I found him quite terrifying but he yeah, I think as a character it's harder to 856 01:02:50,540 --> 01:02:52,540 accept the master 857 01:02:53,180 --> 01:02:57,740 The guy we saw in time flight is going to sit down and have a chat over brandy 858 01:02:58,940 --> 01:03:00,940 You know about jekyll and hyde or whatever 859 01:03:02,060 --> 01:03:04,060 You might do it in his car lid outfit 860 01:03:04,460 --> 01:03:06,140 Yeah, exactly 861 01:03:06,140 --> 01:03:08,940 Well, it's an audio drama. Perhaps he's wearing his car lid outfit throughout 862 01:03:08,940 --> 01:03:11,980 In every release listen to it again 863 01:03:13,980 --> 01:03:16,880 I can see the master that we see in survival 864 01:03:17,660 --> 01:03:24,540 Getting to this place. Yeah, you know in the same way that I can see the doctor that we see in survival getting to this place 865 01:03:25,340 --> 01:03:30,780 Um, you know, I think that's andrew carmel, isn't it? That's andrew carmel going if we're having the master in it 866 01:03:30,780 --> 01:03:34,860 He's got to be a serious character. He can still be terrifying and he is terrifying in survival 867 01:03:34,860 --> 01:03:39,260 But he's actually got to have a very clear motive of what he is doing in that story 868 01:03:39,820 --> 01:03:42,860 Ravel and jest we've got antoniani on a contract 869 01:03:42,860 --> 01:03:46,620 So just bung him in you know bung him in a costume and stick him in a mask at the end of episode three 870 01:03:46,700 --> 01:03:49,980 Stick him in a mask, you know, I think you know andrew carmel, you know 871 01:03:49,980 --> 01:03:54,700 Who I have so much respect for he's sat there and gone if we're doing a story about the master 872 01:03:55,900 --> 01:03:57,740 What is his motivation in this story? 873 01:03:57,740 --> 01:04:04,220 So survivor is one of the few stories where I would say he argued that he's got a very strong motivation which is hope to survive 874 01:04:04,220 --> 01:04:08,940 Which is you know, it's such a stunning piece. I think that's one of mainly his best performances as well 875 01:04:08,940 --> 01:04:11,980 It brings out like a much more threatening 876 01:04:12,940 --> 01:04:15,100 Take on his character. Well it's threatening but also 877 01:04:16,060 --> 01:04:21,500 Even someone like him or I don't I never met him but you know by all accounts. He just wanted to play cricket or something 878 01:04:21,980 --> 01:04:23,420 um 879 01:04:23,420 --> 01:04:24,860 Anybody like that? 880 01:04:24,860 --> 01:04:31,340 You know there are actors who you know, I imagine do a big finish now who genuinely don't really care about doctor who they're doing it 881 01:04:31,340 --> 01:04:34,460 Because it's money they're doing it because they get to see their friends and everything like that 882 01:04:34,700 --> 01:04:39,180 But no matter how much there might be like that you give them something like survival 883 01:04:39,740 --> 01:04:45,900 And you're like, oh, yeah, this is why I act, you know, it's not just ripping off masks and and being you know menacing 884 01:04:46,140 --> 01:04:50,460 It's actually i've got a proper character and i've got a thing of you know, i'm seducing midge 885 01:04:50,460 --> 01:04:56,540 I could you know in previous stories I could just hypnotize people but there he's really got this sort of seducing thing going on, which is brilliant 886 01:04:57,100 --> 01:05:00,380 Um, you know, so yeah, I think Anthony is Anthony and he's brilliant in that story 887 01:05:00,380 --> 01:05:05,500 Because he's written as you've got to do some acting, you know, you can't just be panto villain 888 01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:11,180 I feel like sylvester is at his best when he's got good material as well. I think he 889 01:05:11,900 --> 01:05:18,060 Yeah, I think he really rises to the job. But I think any actor does I think genuinely any actor you you give them 890 01:05:20,220 --> 01:05:25,500 Especially something like doctor who are dark shadows, so dark shadows as a range I produced and i'm thinking of an actress in that 891 01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:31,260 Nancy barrett and she got to play all these different characters and she's big and bright. She's brilliant 892 01:05:31,260 --> 01:05:35,820 She's great actress and it's big and fun and we did a story where her character became an alcoholic 893 01:05:36,460 --> 01:05:42,380 In the audios and her performance is absolutely astonishing and I think it's the same with any actors 894 01:05:42,620 --> 01:05:45,180 They they can have fun with parts of that but there are times 895 01:05:45,980 --> 01:05:51,260 With dot two or dot shadows or with any sort of that sort of i mean star trek the next generation 896 01:05:51,260 --> 01:05:56,940 And you know the star treks do it, you know, sorry actor from star trek for 20 episodes of this season 897 01:05:57,260 --> 01:05:58,860 You're standing there saying technobabble 898 01:05:58,860 --> 01:06:04,460 But for one episode or for two one episode your parents are back or the second episode everyone thinks you're dead 899 01:06:04,780 --> 01:06:09,180 You know you get an episode where you get to do the actual acting and I do think that with 900 01:06:09,820 --> 01:06:14,140 With you know, that happens a lot with with somebody like antony ailey, you know 901 01:06:15,980 --> 01:06:17,980 Yeah 902 01:06:17,980 --> 01:06:21,260 was that a conscious thing then with with jeffery because I think uh, 903 01:06:21,740 --> 01:06:28,140 It's interesting that if you if you imagine it's 2003 now, then you say we're going to do a story with with omega 904 01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:30,380 There's probably going to be some people who are like, oh 905 01:06:31,100 --> 01:06:35,820 They couldn't get stephen thorn. Oh, that's a pity or like with mastey kind of thing. Oh, antony ailey 906 01:06:35,820 --> 01:06:38,540 We can't get him anymore. You've got these two actors you have done the role 907 01:06:39,100 --> 01:06:40,140 but 908 01:06:40,140 --> 01:06:43,580 Some would argue the story not through any thought there's you know 909 01:06:43,580 --> 01:06:51,020 Didn't give them a huge amount to do or or wasn't their finest hour and with omega you've got obviously that weird torda force 910 01:06:51,500 --> 01:06:53,180 performance there 911 01:06:53,180 --> 01:06:58,540 And with master, you know, you've got this absolute kind of throwing jeffery beavers who is 912 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:02,140 Unbelievably great but the kind of giggling menace thing 913 01:07:02,700 --> 01:07:07,260 but if you kind of throw him into a negative and you have this character you spend the whole time with this guy that you 914 01:07:07,260 --> 01:07:12,780 Really like and you kind of feel that you've got this kind of bubbling menace and there are these moments where he kind of 915 01:07:12,780 --> 01:07:14,460 um 916 01:07:14,460 --> 01:07:20,140 You know deliberately sort of toys with saying nasty mean things and that must have been quite a kind of 917 01:07:20,620 --> 01:07:23,580 uh pleasant shock for some listeners who are like 918 01:07:24,540 --> 01:07:25,660 Oh 919 01:07:25,660 --> 01:07:29,500 We're incredibly lucky that jeffrey beavers is is doing this 920 01:07:29,900 --> 01:07:34,700 Um, and he's gone on to just be the synonymous kind of big finish guy. Yes, which is brilliant 921 01:07:35,180 --> 01:07:38,220 um, and he's such a nice guy, but he um 922 01:07:38,220 --> 01:07:43,020 Um, I remember just listening to dust breeding and being like wow, what an amazing voice. Um, 923 01:07:44,220 --> 01:07:46,700 I have seen the dead the assassin. Is it the dead the assassin he's in? 924 01:07:47,340 --> 01:07:53,100 Oh, that's the other one keeper trochan. He's in keeper trochan. So i've seen keeper trochan, but 925 01:07:54,220 --> 01:07:56,220 He doesn't even do a lot in it. Does he really? 926 01:07:57,260 --> 01:08:01,980 You know, it's dust breeding was where I went. Oh, that's a voice. That's brilliant. Um 927 01:08:03,020 --> 01:08:05,260 And that was one of the big moments in big finish history 928 01:08:05,260 --> 01:08:09,580 The reveal of the master in dust breeding because like you we had no idea 929 01:08:09,740 --> 01:08:12,620 I had no idea. I was listening to it and just went oh 930 01:08:13,100 --> 01:08:18,540 Right. Okay, that's happening. Um, but yeah, so it was that but also actually what it did do 931 01:08:19,020 --> 01:08:21,020 That was great was it gave me 932 01:08:22,460 --> 01:08:27,500 The chance to although obviously you can't see the visuals. He looks hideous 933 01:08:28,140 --> 01:08:30,140 um, and so actually what you have is you have 934 01:08:30,140 --> 01:08:36,700 A character who looks hideous but isn't a bad person is a good very good person who saved a lot of lives 935 01:08:37,100 --> 01:08:42,700 And you have him in I love the idea of him being again. I watch ghosts like growing up, you know 936 01:08:42,780 --> 01:08:49,440 That's imprinted on my brain and it's very much that thing of seeing horrible things but happening in a gorgeous victorian 937 01:08:50,940 --> 01:08:53,500 Wood paneled room, you know, and I think 938 01:08:54,380 --> 01:08:57,980 That was a big thing being able to go. All right for this for this character 939 01:08:57,980 --> 01:09:00,460 He can say that he looks hideous and then I 940 01:09:01,260 --> 01:09:05,260 I'm so bad. I haven't listened to it in years. Has he had an affair with the woman? 941 01:09:05,900 --> 01:09:06,940 He 942 01:09:06,940 --> 01:09:12,380 Does she fancy him? But he he she loves him. She fancies him. She loves him even though he looks 943 01:09:13,020 --> 01:09:14,540 Awful 944 01:09:14,540 --> 01:09:17,820 Um, which again, I just quite liked that idea of doing something a bit 945 01:09:18,380 --> 01:09:20,380 unexpected 946 01:09:20,620 --> 01:09:22,140 um 947 01:09:22,140 --> 01:09:25,020 In that way, I have to ask this is not really related to what you've just said 948 01:09:25,020 --> 01:09:30,460 But was it in any way inspired by human nature? Because you've got a time 949 01:09:30,460 --> 01:09:33,500 Lord who is out of their mind and called john smith 950 01:09:34,060 --> 01:09:39,100 That just tickled me halfway through. I suddenly thought oh, it's quite like that. It's the master's version 951 01:09:39,660 --> 01:09:41,980 No, I was I was given the fact that the master 952 01:09:42,700 --> 01:09:48,940 Had lost his memory the master was on the alien planet and he's lost his memory and it's sylvester. That's what I was basically given 953 01:09:49,420 --> 01:09:50,460 um 954 01:09:50,460 --> 01:09:52,460 because I think 955 01:09:52,460 --> 01:09:57,100 Have scott and maybe mark right or maybe just one of them had been working on the idea 956 01:09:57,580 --> 01:09:58,620 and 957 01:09:58,620 --> 01:10:00,620 They'd had to drop out because they were doing 958 01:10:01,180 --> 01:10:05,260 One of the project stories and so gary asked me because i'd done 959 01:10:05,980 --> 01:10:08,940 What he saw as good character work in the rapture? 960 01:10:09,740 --> 01:10:12,060 Which as I say was thankfully not yet released 961 01:10:12,460 --> 01:10:13,580 um 962 01:10:13,580 --> 01:10:17,740 So he knew that I would be someone he'd be interested in seeing what I would do with the character 963 01:10:17,740 --> 01:10:22,620 Um, so yeah, no, it's funny because you again i'd love to human nature. Um 964 01:10:23,900 --> 01:10:25,980 But yeah hadn't crossed my mind at all 965 01:10:26,460 --> 01:10:29,580 Um, I think I just did john smith because that was always the joke 966 01:10:30,300 --> 01:10:33,740 It's yeah, it does feel like a pointed joke at the doctor's expense 967 01:10:34,300 --> 01:10:37,420 Yeah, he always calls himself john smith. So I just thought 968 01:10:38,540 --> 01:10:42,620 You know, it would be funny, you know, it would make sense for him to be called john smith. Also, it's quite tricky 969 01:10:43,180 --> 01:10:44,140 I think 970 01:10:44,140 --> 01:10:48,300 Coming up with a different name. I'm sure at one point I tried to do an anagram, but I couldn't do it 971 01:10:48,380 --> 01:10:50,380 So it's quite tricky to come up with a name that 972 01:10:51,020 --> 01:10:54,940 Feels slightly iconic. You know what I mean? He can't if he was just called derek 973 01:10:55,660 --> 01:11:02,700 He'd be like, all right derek. Yeah, are you really the master? Whereas john smith comes with for a doctor who fan listening to it the loaded 974 01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:07,980 Connotations of how the doctor calls himself john smith, you know, that's his fake name 975 01:11:08,460 --> 01:11:10,460 um, and of course 976 01:11:10,620 --> 01:11:12,620 Oh, i've just realized that 977 01:11:12,620 --> 01:11:14,620 It's been 20 years. I've just realized because 978 01:11:15,020 --> 01:11:18,380 So he's using the doctor's name and he should have been the doctor all along 979 01:11:20,620 --> 01:11:22,620 Clever well done 980 01:11:22,620 --> 01:11:28,780 20 odd year old me that was that was quite clever. You've you've done a seventh doctor. You've manipulated ahead of yourself. Yeah 981 01:11:29,260 --> 01:11:31,980 Yeah, I have i've yeah juggled all the balls. Uh, yeah 982 01:11:32,540 --> 01:11:35,820 If you want I can edit that bit out and we can pretend it was the plan all along 983 01:11:35,820 --> 01:11:42,060 No, no, don't i'm awful for it. I did a torture this year though last where it came out this year 984 01:11:42,620 --> 01:11:46,780 James goss asked me at the recording. He did a little q a afterwards and he said so when did did 985 01:11:47,420 --> 01:11:50,220 And I was like, what do you mean? He went well how the story does it and went 986 01:11:50,940 --> 01:11:52,940 Oh, I didn't realize it did that 987 01:11:55,260 --> 01:11:59,500 I'm not necessarily the most intelligent of writers. I just write it and then i'm like, oh yeah, that does make sense 988 01:11:59,740 --> 01:12:04,460 I suspect that's a running theme with doctor who though like a lot of the brilliant stuff is 989 01:12:04,460 --> 01:12:11,340 By accident by accident. Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. I mean master is absolutely fantastic. It's 990 01:12:12,380 --> 01:12:17,420 It really does drill down on a character that as you say has never properly been explored 991 01:12:17,420 --> 01:12:21,980 It's amazing really that this is the first proper exploration of that character 992 01:12:22,940 --> 01:12:24,300 um 993 01:12:24,300 --> 01:12:25,580 and 994 01:12:25,580 --> 01:12:29,920 Giving him, you know the role that you do that that john smith persona 995 01:12:31,020 --> 01:12:33,020 um 996 01:12:33,020 --> 01:12:40,240 I really love that first episode where like the doctor's hardly in it. He has a few lines at the start and then turns up the cliffhanger 997 01:12:41,260 --> 01:12:48,140 Uh almost as if he's the villain of the story like that's a horror ending reveal the cliffhanger reveal who's the villain 998 01:12:49,660 --> 01:12:52,940 Yes, that was that was definitely intentional at the time of going 999 01:12:53,100 --> 01:12:56,380 He's when the master turns up or the daleks turns up this time 1000 01:12:56,380 --> 01:13:00,940 It's the dotstone because it's the disruptive force that's going to destroy the lives of these three 1001 01:13:00,940 --> 01:13:02,060 really 1002 01:13:02,060 --> 01:13:06,300 Quite nice people. I think they're probably not as obviously not as nice as they seem but you know 1003 01:13:06,460 --> 01:13:10,940 Um, he is the master. One of them's been doing a bit of murder, but well, yes. Yes 1004 01:13:11,500 --> 01:13:14,780 But murder's aside. We don't know that. He's quite a nice bloke. Yeah 1005 01:13:15,260 --> 01:13:20,460 Um and again fantastic bit of casting philip maddock, you know, like wow astonishing 1006 01:13:21,020 --> 01:13:27,020 Yeah, it was it was and of course that thing, you know philip and dan have gone now, but um, I remember them being 1007 01:13:27,020 --> 01:13:32,140 Being such a friendly cast. It was such a really nice 1008 01:13:33,480 --> 01:13:35,660 Recording it's really hot. I remember that 1009 01:13:36,860 --> 01:13:38,860 but you had 1010 01:13:39,480 --> 01:13:41,480 Jeffrey and 1011 01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:44,040 Sylvester and philip 1012 01:13:45,340 --> 01:13:50,380 All of whom were you know a good I would say 20 years older than say me 1013 01:13:50,860 --> 01:13:55,580 Um probably older than that and then you're charlie haze playing the maid stroke death 1014 01:13:55,580 --> 01:14:00,780 And she was I think she's younger than me and I just remember it being so like she was 1015 01:14:01,580 --> 01:14:05,180 They all found her really sweet because she'd highlighted her lines in the script 1016 01:14:06,140 --> 01:14:12,300 Um, whereas they sort of these old pros who had these stories to tell and it was just a really really lovely thing 1017 01:14:12,300 --> 01:14:14,300 And they really did that thing that 1018 01:14:14,780 --> 01:14:17,100 I think I certainly took away from it 1019 01:14:17,980 --> 01:14:20,540 Um as a writer it is 1020 01:14:21,980 --> 01:14:23,980 Philip I remember philip 1021 01:14:23,980 --> 01:14:29,660 said knew I was in the recording booth, I think and he knew was there and he said he made a very 1022 01:14:30,140 --> 01:14:34,940 Point of stopping and saying I just want to say what a brilliant script this is 1023 01:14:35,500 --> 01:14:39,580 Which you know, I think he was telling the truth, but it was that real thing that you learn from it of going 1024 01:14:40,380 --> 01:14:42,380 Every writer and actor need you know 1025 01:14:42,540 --> 01:14:49,420 It takes you 30 seconds to absolutely make their day and let them know that this is you know 1026 01:14:49,420 --> 01:14:55,180 You're doing something good and I think he I really got that from him. So, you know, I was always i've done it with actors 1027 01:14:55,260 --> 01:14:58,940 I know and with other writers when i've scripted it or produced or directed 1028 01:14:59,340 --> 01:15:04,540 Um, it was just you know, you can learn from you learn so much from someone like philip maddock 1029 01:15:05,660 --> 01:15:07,660 just an astonishing 1030 01:15:07,660 --> 01:15:12,540 Actor and an astonishing voice. Um, and a really really lovely man 1031 01:15:13,100 --> 01:15:17,980 So it was yeah, I don't even think at the time I realized what an ornith was. I was writing for someone like philip maddock 1032 01:15:17,980 --> 01:15:22,540 And I think I was just like oh great cast always knee in the dalek film, you know 1033 01:15:22,780 --> 01:15:26,140 I don't think I was fully aware of actually what uh, what an amazing 1034 01:15:26,940 --> 01:15:29,500 Actor and he was and what a great career he'd had 1035 01:15:30,300 --> 01:15:37,660 I think one of the one of the best things i've ever heard philip maddock do is the audiobook to um 1036 01:15:38,300 --> 01:15:40,560 alan garner's weird stone of brazingaman 1037 01:15:41,420 --> 01:15:43,420 Which is sort of set around 1038 01:15:43,500 --> 01:15:45,020 Where i'm from? 1039 01:15:45,020 --> 01:15:49,900 All right, what a voice just it brings a it's a good book 1040 01:15:49,980 --> 01:15:53,740 But really really brings something to it really brings it to life and 1041 01:15:54,460 --> 01:16:01,500 But yeah, maybe it's I mean master is just a it's a drama full of voices to just die for isn't it? 1042 01:16:01,500 --> 01:16:05,100 Yes astonishing. It's one of the best collections of 1043 01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:07,880 incredible audio voices 1044 01:16:08,380 --> 01:16:13,580 That must be it feels like a play as well. I imagine that would have appealed to uh, a big part of it 1045 01:16:13,580 --> 01:16:16,380 um a big influence on me was uh amadeus 1046 01:16:17,100 --> 01:16:18,940 uh the um 1047 01:16:18,940 --> 01:16:22,380 Peter schofer play because i'd done that at school and that was 1048 01:16:23,180 --> 01:16:27,340 What made me really want to be a writer because i'd done a lot of amateur dramatics 1049 01:16:27,660 --> 01:16:28,300 um 1050 01:16:28,300 --> 01:16:32,380 And school plays and everything about school plays tended to be and I love them 1051 01:16:32,540 --> 01:16:35,500 But they tend to be musicals like sweet charity and the king and I and 1052 01:16:35,900 --> 01:16:39,100 And all sorts of things you probably wouldn't be putting on these days in a school 1053 01:16:39,500 --> 01:16:41,500 um and then 1054 01:16:41,500 --> 01:16:46,700 When we were in our sixth form, I didn't do the drama a level even I really wanted to we couldn't make it fit 1055 01:16:46,860 --> 01:16:51,900 with the ones that other ones I did want to do but I basically skived off lessons to take part in their 1056 01:16:52,300 --> 01:16:56,300 a level their production of amadeus and I played salieri in it and 1057 01:16:57,820 --> 01:17:00,700 And I don't mean this is a bit of a brag but I 1058 01:17:01,820 --> 01:17:08,780 Was great because I really got that my best mate played amadeus and he his mom who loved me 1059 01:17:08,780 --> 01:17:12,380 Was like I can't look at you right now. Um a year later 1060 01:17:12,380 --> 01:17:14,940 I was working on a supermarket checkout and someone said oh my god 1061 01:17:14,940 --> 01:17:16,940 You gave me nightmares a year ago 1062 01:17:16,940 --> 01:17:23,260 But I realized what allowed me to do that was what a brilliant script it was and I think that's when I realized 1063 01:17:23,660 --> 01:17:25,900 Actually acting isn't for me. What I want to do is 1064 01:17:27,740 --> 01:17:34,300 Not you know never have achieved anything like amadeus but to write something that gives actors good things to say 1065 01:17:34,620 --> 01:17:36,620 And good things to perform and I think 1066 01:17:37,180 --> 01:17:38,700 with master 1067 01:17:38,700 --> 01:17:44,140 There was that sense of it's a two it's effectively, you know, there's amadeus mozart and salieri 1068 01:17:44,140 --> 01:17:46,940 So there's two people there's the master and the doctor. There's two people 1069 01:17:47,100 --> 01:17:50,300 So I think it takes a lot from that and that sort of classical vibe to it 1070 01:17:51,260 --> 01:17:53,260 but also it was me going I 1071 01:17:54,540 --> 01:17:56,060 I want 1072 01:17:56,060 --> 01:17:59,180 Actors to really have good stuff to do 1073 01:18:00,460 --> 01:18:02,460 and 1074 01:18:02,460 --> 01:18:09,100 I think you know that gives it more of a sense of it being a play because you know 1075 01:18:09,500 --> 01:18:12,700 All doctor who can't be like that. I mean again, we were very lucky with the villains trilogies 1076 01:18:12,860 --> 01:18:15,740 I always say, you know when people say that the favorite doctor whose story is blink 1077 01:18:15,740 --> 01:18:19,820 I'm like, but it's not a doctor whose story it's absolutely it's brilliant 1078 01:18:20,140 --> 01:18:24,380 Because it's not a doctor whose story because it wouldn't work if it was a normal doctor whose story 1079 01:18:24,620 --> 01:18:29,260 So and it's the same with the villains trilogy they work because we haven't I was gonna say lumbered 1080 01:18:29,260 --> 01:18:33,180 I love the companions, but we haven't got the companions in so it allows us to push the boat out 1081 01:18:33,420 --> 01:18:39,100 Or allowed us to push the boat out and do different things and I think you know master would have been very different 1082 01:18:39,100 --> 01:18:43,980 It wouldn't have had that play sensibility to it if it had heard mel or ace in it 1083 01:18:45,820 --> 01:18:51,100 That really plays to the strengths of audio drama because one approach is okay 1084 01:18:51,100 --> 01:18:54,700 We're on audio we can just like go crazy and have like an unlimited budget and 1085 01:18:54,700 --> 01:19:00,860 There's a place for that. I think it can work really well if it's like, you know painting visual pictures. It's a skill in itself, but 1086 01:19:01,900 --> 01:19:07,980 Yeah, it's like the ones that I remember the ones that stand out like deadline is another one 1087 01:19:07,980 --> 01:19:13,340 but that you could just easily see people like transferred straight to like a stage production and 1088 01:19:14,060 --> 01:19:17,500 They're the ones that I think that really get inside your head as an audio. Yeah 1089 01:19:18,860 --> 01:19:23,420 And then you know, they're the ones probably least like the old TV series, which we all love 1090 01:19:23,420 --> 01:19:26,460 But again, I suppose it's like I said earlier on I never really had any interest about 1091 01:19:27,500 --> 01:19:29,500 Trying to do that 1092 01:19:29,500 --> 01:19:35,180 Even though say I love the Davros story because Davros if you close your eyes you are back. I am back to being 1093 01:19:35,900 --> 01:19:41,580 Whatever. I was 10 years old watching Revelation of the Daleks because it it's great because it captures that and I love the fact that 1094 01:19:41,580 --> 01:19:47,740 This world exists where there are stories that really go for you are watching season 20 1095 01:19:48,540 --> 01:19:51,020 And then there are stories that just don't do that at all 1096 01:19:51,020 --> 01:19:53,580 And I think for me the preference was to not do 1097 01:19:54,140 --> 01:19:59,340 To do that and I think with master by not having a companion in you know, Sylvester had never been without a companion 1098 01:19:59,660 --> 01:20:02,460 So to have him not have a companion allows 1099 01:20:03,420 --> 01:20:05,420 a greater 1100 01:20:07,740 --> 01:20:11,500 There's more opportunity for for it to be more like a play 1101 01:20:12,140 --> 01:20:16,620 So I was just very lucky and honored to sort of get the opportunity to do it 1102 01:20:16,620 --> 01:20:20,540 I think if ace have been there he would never have heard the end of it 1103 01:20:21,020 --> 01:20:23,020 She'd never let that one go 1104 01:20:23,420 --> 01:20:25,020 I don't know there's a version of ace 1105 01:20:25,020 --> 01:20:32,140 You know if you've done the version of ace like using ghost light the quieter angrier ace and maybe she's working in the kitchen with the maid 1106 01:20:32,140 --> 01:20:37,660 And everything else it wouldn't be as good not as good that sounds statistical, but it wouldn't be the same story 1107 01:20:37,660 --> 01:20:39,660 It'd be a very different thing 1108 01:20:39,660 --> 01:20:45,100 Because also you'd want to give her agency to want to give her something to do and there really isn't room in that story 1109 01:20:45,100 --> 01:20:48,540 For an extraneous character with nothing to do with you again 1110 01:20:48,540 --> 01:20:51,500 We were very lucky with the villains trilogy because by taking out the companion 1111 01:20:51,500 --> 01:20:57,420 It takes it means you can really focus on that relationship between the two the doctor and the the villain of the story 1112 01:20:57,980 --> 01:21:01,020 Because you haven't got another character who you you know 1113 01:21:01,020 --> 01:21:04,380 No writer worth their salt wants to have a character who isn't doing anything 1114 01:21:04,380 --> 01:21:10,140 So, you know if you've got a companion you want them to be an active and a protagonist in the story 1115 01:21:10,140 --> 01:21:12,780 Especially on audio because you forget that they're there if you're not 1116 01:21:12,780 --> 01:21:14,780 Yes, I mean absolutely 1117 01:21:15,420 --> 01:21:17,820 You know that's such a big thing you have to 1118 01:21:18,380 --> 01:21:22,380 Yeah, worry about an audio is that I think I don't tend to worry about writing audio 1119 01:21:22,380 --> 01:21:26,380 But the one thing you do have to go is is a character in a scene and they've not been mentioned so far 1120 01:21:26,860 --> 01:21:31,980 Because it takes you out of the drama because you go have they been there all this time? I don't remember that you know 1121 01:21:32,780 --> 01:21:35,260 So it's always a when I was script editing. It was always the note 1122 01:21:35,260 --> 01:21:39,020 I would always I'd always gave is go we don't know this person's in the scene 1123 01:21:39,020 --> 01:21:42,940 I don't know if they've been eavesdropping. I don't know if they're in the scene. I don't know if they're standing next to them 1124 01:21:42,940 --> 01:21:46,540 Go back and make sure we are aware when they come into the scene 1125 01:21:46,540 --> 01:21:49,100 I think that just going back to what we're saying about 1126 01:21:49,740 --> 01:21:53,740 You know the doctor being on his own companion this it's something that's been 1127 01:21:54,300 --> 01:22:00,780 Explored quite a lot since like the new series likes to do a christmas special with the companion 1128 01:22:00,780 --> 01:22:03,820 Just stopping off elsewhere for a little while all that kind of thing 1129 01:22:04,300 --> 01:22:06,140 But it hadn't really been done at this point 1130 01:22:06,140 --> 01:22:13,180 At all had it you know we'd had the deadly assassin and that was it for 26 years of doctor who and I loved the deadly assassin 1131 01:22:13,180 --> 01:22:18,860 It's fantastic and but it doesn't exactly take advantage of the fact that the doctor's on his own beyond 1132 01:22:18,860 --> 01:22:24,060 Tom Baker getting to talk to himself a little bit. Yeah, which was the purpose of the exercise. I believe 1133 01:22:24,860 --> 01:22:26,140 but 1134 01:22:26,140 --> 01:22:28,140 Yeah, exploring that idea in 1135 01:22:29,980 --> 01:22:33,420 In 2003 must have been quite I suppose we've done it in sirens attack 1136 01:22:33,420 --> 01:22:39,260 But apart from that, you know sirens time against other things. Yeah, so it's just a big fun 1137 01:22:39,260 --> 01:22:44,620 Look, we can do dr. Who thing whereas I think the villains trilogy and it all comes down to gary russell 1138 01:22:45,420 --> 01:22:48,460 The villains trilogy is gary going we're going we are 1139 01:22:49,100 --> 01:22:51,100 Celebrating the 40th anniversary of dr. Who 1140 01:22:51,900 --> 01:22:57,980 This is it. There is no tv celebration. We are the people celebrating the 40th anniversary of dr 1141 01:22:57,980 --> 01:23:00,700 Who what do we do? I don't want to do that 1142 01:23:00,700 --> 01:23:07,340 I don't want to do the five doctors again. Yeah, so let's give all three doctors 1143 01:23:08,860 --> 01:23:10,860 the first three doctors a 1144 01:23:11,420 --> 01:23:12,860 really strong 1145 01:23:12,860 --> 01:23:14,860 character-led story that 1146 01:23:16,540 --> 01:23:18,540 Again, I don't want to sound 1147 01:23:18,860 --> 01:23:21,900 You've got nev fountain and lance park and you've got two very 1148 01:23:23,160 --> 01:23:27,260 Distinct writers you've got nev who we like you say is is basically 1149 01:23:27,260 --> 01:23:34,060 Um douglas adams of his of our day, I would say and you've got lance parking who is so entrenched in the new adventures and 1150 01:23:34,620 --> 01:23:36,620 What he did in new adventures, which is astonishing 1151 01:23:37,020 --> 01:23:42,460 And then you've got me who is a very new young person approaching it very much as i'm writing a story 1152 01:23:42,700 --> 01:23:48,780 Not i'm writing a doctor who story and I think what you end up then is these three very distinct stories 1153 01:23:50,380 --> 01:23:51,900 Rather than 1154 01:23:51,900 --> 01:23:55,820 Let's just you know have daleks, you know, and things like that 1155 01:23:55,820 --> 01:24:03,020 Um, which i'll end inky then does in in segreus by not having people playing the characters. They are in the tv series 1156 01:24:03,500 --> 01:24:06,540 Um, you know, it's it's again. It's just gary going. Let's actually 1157 01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:08,460 creatively 1158 01:24:08,460 --> 01:24:12,220 Try something here. That's a bit different to what people might expect 1159 01:24:13,420 --> 01:24:17,020 I think some of the most interesting anniversary stories have been 1160 01:24:17,740 --> 01:24:19,900 in extended media for dr 1161 01:24:19,900 --> 01:24:24,060 Who because I think there was the scream of the shark that was the same time 1162 01:24:24,060 --> 01:24:27,740 But then like five years previously one of my favorite books is the infinity doctors 1163 01:24:28,700 --> 01:24:30,700 Yeah, which again does it does? 1164 01:24:31,420 --> 01:24:34,620 It's a book you could have all the you could do the eight doctors again. Um, 1165 01:24:35,340 --> 01:24:37,340 But is that lance parking again? 1166 01:24:37,340 --> 01:24:39,900 Yeah, yes. Yeah. Well, I mean that's it. He was you know 1167 01:24:41,260 --> 01:24:44,300 Him paul connell and kate orman and that were the you know, the absolutely 1168 01:24:44,780 --> 01:24:48,540 defining voices weren't they of the new adventures and then the the the 1169 01:24:49,100 --> 01:24:51,180 um eighth doctor books, but um 1170 01:24:51,180 --> 01:24:53,180 You know, I think 1171 01:24:53,980 --> 01:25:00,300 You know, yeah, it's when when it tries it's something a bit different which you can do partly because you're only trying to sell it to a fan audience 1172 01:25:00,540 --> 01:25:06,620 You know you you if you're doing a tv series to do the 20th anniversary of doctor who you want to do the five doctors 1173 01:25:06,620 --> 01:25:11,660 That's what a general audience want. You want your mom sitting there going. Oh, that's the one I used to watch and you know 1174 01:25:11,660 --> 01:25:15,420 And that you don't want an analysis of the doctor's relationship with omega 1175 01:25:16,220 --> 01:25:19,100 Yeah, that's that's that's not what my mom's going to sit down and watch 1176 01:25:19,100 --> 01:25:23,260 So I think that is that thing about the extended media is is because it's aimed at the fans 1177 01:25:23,580 --> 01:25:27,100 You have a bit more freedom to so that be less, you know 1178 01:25:27,660 --> 01:25:29,820 mainstream which is why it's cool when 1179 01:25:30,460 --> 01:25:36,220 Extended media takes up that opportunity rather than I think so. Yeah, the six doctors and the seven doctors 1180 01:25:37,020 --> 01:25:40,140 Because because we don't need that we've had that we've had it a few times 1181 01:25:41,100 --> 01:25:45,340 And I think it's diminishing returns. Isn't it? I do think you know the first time the new series 1182 01:25:45,340 --> 01:25:51,260 I mean I can proudly say I'm I wrote the first appearance of the old doctor who's in 1183 01:25:51,740 --> 01:25:54,620 The sero jane adventures that predated the next doctor 1184 01:25:55,100 --> 01:26:01,100 Um, so I was the first one to do it and then you're the next doctor and it was amazing and I think there is this 1185 01:26:02,540 --> 01:26:05,420 If you keep bringing them back because you can bring them back. I mean, that's the thing 1186 01:26:05,420 --> 01:26:08,860 We know you can it's a different world to how it was back in the day 1187 01:26:09,660 --> 01:26:12,140 You're dealing with actors who are probably retired now 1188 01:26:12,140 --> 01:26:14,700 So they will you know, happily come back 1189 01:26:15,180 --> 01:26:17,180 Certainly on audio 1190 01:26:17,180 --> 01:26:19,180 You can record anybody at any time, you know 1191 01:26:20,220 --> 01:26:24,460 I did a dark shadows series 13 part series. I think had about 40 speaking characters in it 1192 01:26:24,460 --> 01:26:26,460 None of whom acted together at all 1193 01:26:26,460 --> 01:26:32,380 Everybody acted separately, you know, you can do anything on audio and to a certain extent you can do that with tv a lot more now 1194 01:26:32,380 --> 01:26:35,820 You can just bring back anyone and do anything because 1195 01:26:36,780 --> 01:26:38,780 It's not a multi-camera studio setup 1196 01:26:38,780 --> 01:26:44,700 So, you know, how can we get fraser hinds and wendy pabrine on the same day when he's in emmerdale and she's you know 1197 01:26:44,700 --> 01:26:46,780 It's like you don't have to worry about that so much 1198 01:26:47,580 --> 01:26:50,140 With the way the television is made these days 1199 01:26:50,700 --> 01:26:56,140 It's a lot easier to get someone into a cameo, but I do think it is diminishing returns. Frankly, it's um 1200 01:26:57,020 --> 01:26:59,020 Oh look there they are 1201 01:26:59,020 --> 01:27:04,300 Well before we before we wrap up because i'm aware we're running out of time. Yes. I've got to cook my dinner 1202 01:27:04,300 --> 01:27:10,700 Yes, this did me too. Uh, this has this has led me to kind of one more question actually which was 1203 01:27:11,580 --> 01:27:18,140 How did we feel about what the 60th anniversary did sort of bringing david tennant back as a new doctor? 1204 01:27:19,020 --> 01:27:21,500 In terms of celebrating an anniversary 1205 01:27:21,500 --> 01:27:27,100 How how did we feel about that because I know that there are kind of varying opinions of this is absolutely amazing 1206 01:27:27,100 --> 01:27:29,100 it's great to have the old team back and 1207 01:27:29,100 --> 01:27:34,460 Oh, well couldn't we have done something new or couldn't we have got sylvester mccoy in it even though he was in power of the doctor 1208 01:27:34,460 --> 01:27:38,860 A year before that kind of thing. So I think power of the doctor kind of jumped the gun a bit 1209 01:27:39,420 --> 01:27:45,340 Right did yeah, we kind of had the 60th on the 59th didn't we some of them I think thought they were in the 60th 1210 01:27:46,860 --> 01:27:49,340 But yeah, um 1211 01:27:50,380 --> 01:27:54,060 It that one scratched that itch quite well. I thought but uh 1212 01:27:54,060 --> 01:27:59,980 But uh, yeah, I thought the the 60th stories were more kind of forward-facing for me 1213 01:28:00,540 --> 01:28:06,300 A bit more introspective than like this. Yeah, the power of the doctor had that five doctors vibe in a good way 1214 01:28:06,380 --> 01:28:08,380 I thought I liked it but like um 1215 01:28:08,700 --> 01:28:13,660 I was sort of against it in principle when I heard he was coming back because it's like let someone else have a go 1216 01:28:13,660 --> 01:28:19,020 And I was like there's a video that emerged recently from his first era where he's he's like talking to a fan and going 1217 01:28:19,020 --> 01:28:23,900 Oh, maybe in the future you could be the 14th doctor and then he came back and he was there 1218 01:28:24,380 --> 01:28:26,380 as a full doctor, but 1219 01:28:26,460 --> 01:28:30,780 Actually, I really liked that trilogy of episodes. Um, I did like 1220 01:28:31,340 --> 01:28:38,380 Uh the full series as well, but I think I I actually prefer that trilogy of specials. There's something 1221 01:28:39,180 --> 01:28:40,780 that feels like 1222 01:28:40,780 --> 01:28:46,220 Coherent about them at the same time as they're like wrapping up arcs from like 10 years ago as well. Yeah 1223 01:28:46,220 --> 01:28:49,660 Yeah, I thought it was great fun. I think you know if 1224 01:28:50,780 --> 01:28:56,700 It's difficult as a slightly older person for me. David Tennant was just the doctor about two weeks ago 1225 01:28:56,700 --> 01:29:00,220 You know, it seems odd he could go back, but it's not he's literally a generation ago 1226 01:29:00,220 --> 01:29:04,140 It's like if the old series had brought back Tom Baker, you know who? 1227 01:29:05,180 --> 01:29:10,140 With no disrespect to any actor involved would be arguably the most popular doctor 1228 01:29:10,540 --> 01:29:15,180 Tom Baker and then David Tennant. They're not necessarily my favorite by any stretch of the imagination 1229 01:29:15,180 --> 01:29:19,340 But they would be the most popular one. It's a big news story. It gets people watching 1230 01:29:20,060 --> 01:29:23,100 But also I think what it did brilliantly was he didn't just come back 1231 01:29:23,100 --> 01:29:28,300 He she regenerated into him and that was interesting that that's a story that never been done before 1232 01:29:28,620 --> 01:29:33,820 So I personally found it really really really interesting and I loved the story on the spaceship 1233 01:29:34,220 --> 01:29:41,180 That was just a doctor and donna. I thought that was a proper classic episode of doctor who so worth it just for that one 1234 01:29:41,580 --> 01:29:43,580 Yeah, absolutely 1235 01:29:43,580 --> 01:29:45,180 Absolutely 1236 01:29:45,180 --> 01:29:50,860 It we kind of got a mini russell tdv series from the whole thing. We got the fun opener 1237 01:29:50,860 --> 01:29:52,380 We got the yeah 1238 01:29:52,380 --> 01:29:57,100 We got the midnight the blink the kind of different one and then we got the big grand finale 1239 01:29:57,340 --> 01:30:02,140 All in the space of three weeks and that was that was kind of wonderful to have and it was a really good 1240 01:30:03,500 --> 01:30:04,460 You know 1241 01:30:04,460 --> 01:30:08,140 There are sort of arguments where it doesn't celebrate all of doctor who was like no 1242 01:30:08,140 --> 01:30:12,460 But it celebrates doctor who's success and it celebrates one of its most successful areas 1243 01:30:12,460 --> 01:30:18,620 Yeah, and it's doing something a bit different which is yeah, and it it's brought back an actor who is just so 1244 01:30:19,480 --> 01:30:21,480 intrinsically linked with the role that 1245 01:30:22,220 --> 01:30:23,820 Why the hell not? 1246 01:30:23,820 --> 01:30:24,940 You know 1247 01:30:24,940 --> 01:30:26,940 Absolutely. Yeah 1248 01:30:27,020 --> 01:30:32,300 Well, I I think we've broken the record for the longest episode of this podcast ever crikey 1249 01:30:33,500 --> 01:30:37,420 We've we've we've passed an hour and a half. I don't think we've ever done that before so 1250 01:30:37,420 --> 01:30:42,220 So this is probably a very good point to say some emotional goodbyes. So 1251 01:30:43,020 --> 01:30:47,260 Thank you so much for joining us again joe. It's been wonderful to talk about a 1252 01:30:48,460 --> 01:30:51,900 Very interesting part of doctor who history actually sort of that 1253 01:30:52,220 --> 01:30:55,660 You know, how did we do the 40th when it wasn't on telly that kind of thing? 1254 01:30:55,740 --> 01:30:59,820 You know, we we didn't have dimensions in time. We didn't have day of the doctor 1255 01:31:00,540 --> 01:31:02,540 What a shame 1256 01:31:03,100 --> 01:31:05,340 Can't believe I mentioned those two in the same sentence 1257 01:31:05,340 --> 01:31:09,180 At the time and talking about like classic anniversary stories 1258 01:31:10,540 --> 01:31:15,180 I mean, that's a whole other episode which uh, you can come back and join us for if you want jeff. Yeah 1259 01:31:18,220 --> 01:31:23,500 So yeah, thank you very much for joining us joe. It's been great to have you back on the podcast. That's right. Thanks for having me 1260 01:31:24,140 --> 01:31:27,660 It's been great to speak to you. Yeah, big. Thank you to gareth as well 1261 01:31:28,540 --> 01:31:29,580 Thank you 1262 01:31:29,580 --> 01:31:33,500 And a big thank you for mansour for jumping on for the last half. Thank you 1263 01:31:33,500 --> 01:31:35,500 Thank you 1264 01:31:35,580 --> 01:31:42,940 So we'll uh, we'll be back to talk about more doctor who big finish audio drama all sorts very soon 1265 01:31:42,940 --> 01:32:03,980 But for now it is goodbye. Thank you