Hello, I'm Joseph Lidster and you're listening to a podcast of spurious morality. Try saying that after a drink.
Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality. I'm Johnston and with me this week. I have Gareth
Hello, and we are joined by special guest Joseph Lidster. Hello. Hi. How are you?
Very good. Thank you. Welcome. Welcome back
Yes, you're a first you're a first ever returning guest. Oh
So we've we've had some very wonderful people join us but as yeah, you are the first one to to rejoin us
Does that make me special or cheap?
Which one?
We'll ask our listeners to yeah touch it is on blue sky. We're on blue sky now. We've left to it
Oh, yes, so get in touch with us on blue sky and it's very difficult to we don't say tweet anymore
It was nice and easy to go. Oh just tweet
Isn't it supposed to post post post at is on blue sky and
They need a ubiquitous word for that. Yes
That's that was the really stupid thing. I'm going on a rant already
That was the really stupid thing about changing Twitter to X. It was the fact that
Twitter and tweet had become so
Sort of embedded into our language, you know tweet had become a verb
and
like throwing that away for the sake of changing the logo and
Satisfying ones ego is stupid really. It's just just one of many brilliant decisions. Just yes
And it was all downhill from there, but yes, we're on blue sky so taught was there
So we're here today to discuss
I suppose a fairly iconic
Big Finnish trilogy we're gonna discuss the the villains trilogy that they did in the build up to the 40th anniversary of Doctor
Who so we've got Omega. We've got master. We've got Omega. We've got Davros and we've got master get it in order
And Joe you you wrote master. I did. Yes many many many years ago. Yes
2021 at least yeah
And it was was your second am I right in thinking it was yeah, I'd written the rapture
which was a Sylvester McCoy and Sophie ordered and
they went to Ibiza where aliens are taking over the world with dance music and
MDMA I think it was and
That didn't go down very well with Doctor Who fans
With well with lots of fans. I've been also is my first script
So, you know, it does you know freely admit it falls apart in the final episode and everything
But luckily for me, I was commissioned to write master before the Rapture was released
So I got to come back
Because I think had the Rapture got the response it got and I hadn't been commissioned for master
I suspect I wouldn't have been commissioned for it
But but thankfully you were and the rest is history
and of course the Rapture has brought about this episode of its podcast because I was in Ibiza recently and
saw a sign up
advertising Jude's bar and I thought I know who I need to send this to yes. Yeah, so
Fired it over and we we decided to podcast again, which was which was nice
So there you go. The Rapture has if nothing else brought about this episode of this podcast. I
I liked it. I like it. I didn't have a problem. Yeah. No, I think it's absolutely fantastic
I haven't heard it in years. I remember being really proud of episode two
I think episode two was submit very different topic finish it done before I think episode one was good
I just think in episode three it as far as I can remember it starts to fall apart plot wise in episode three
But I learned a lot from doing it. I learned
a lot about plotting
Because I did the big thing I learned from it was
Your endings got to be as strong as your opening
Whereas Rapture didn't it had I think quite a strong opening and then sort of trailed off into nothing by the end
And I also learned to get off Doctor Who forums
I mean, I still read stuff, but yeah, not not to really engage with
ongoing
Fandome discussions, I suppose on forums. Yeah, because I didn't think it was healthy for me
It was healthy for me certainly, but also I don't think it's necessary particularly healthy or not healthy
It's not healthy for me, but I don't think it's particularly good for
Allowing free speech on a forum people should be allowed to say they hate something that they've bought
Without thinking oh, I don't want to upset someone's feelings. So I very quickly withdrew from
Gallifrey outpost Gallifrey
And it's it's the negative ones you remember as well. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, so I died and I got some real doozies
I did get not you know, I was I was like
In my early 20s, I said I was young and I hadn't done anything before and it was very exciting
And also I wasn't part of fandom
You know, so I didn't really know what people liked or you know what the general consensus on on things was
So I was really just really excited and it came out and yeah
It got some it got some quite personal negative feedback, you know, which I
Did struggle with so I very much was like no don't engage
Which I think is the right thing to do. So, you know, even now I go well, I
In many ways I was quite lucky because I very quickly withdrew from from that sort of online world
I'm sure it's become entirely lovely since then
Yeah, it's great to be fair I would say the the audio part of Gallifrey and
What base now is is nicer than the TV set? Oh, I kind of I only look at audio and books now
I won't go near the TV anymore. They're too angry. Yeah, no, I'm sure you know
And also, you know people are entitled to not like stuff and people are inside to say they don't like stuff
And I think especially if they've paid for it
They are, you know very much entitled to say that and I
But it were things where it got personal. I love it based on my age and being a new writer
You know, so it did get very much he must never write again
And I you know, you did a couple of people in real life said I remember once as a shopping center
there was a shop called 10th planet and we used to sign autographs in it and
Standing outside the shop with Rob Sherman
We were waiting for someone presumably who was signing autographs and me and my wife were waiting for someone
to sign autographs and me and Rob were sort of taking the mick out of each other and I think I was I was mocking his
Age despite the fact that you know, it was probably about 20 years younger than I am now
And he said well at least I didn't write the rapture, you know, obviously joking and
This guy next to us turned around and goes did one of you have something to do with the rapture?
Don't get me started on the rapture
It didn't ask you to join our conversation
So, yeah, it was it was
an interesting time, but then I got to write master so and that went down a lot better
Well, I think they're both brilliant. So there
Thank you
And I did listen to the rapture while I was in Ibiza
Oh excellent and I was in the bit of Ibiza in which it said so oh really? Oh lovely
No, I've never been so one day would love to go
Maybe I'll listen to the rapture name for the first time in 20 years
Yeah, how many people can claim that the I went to Ibiza to the correct place and listen to it while I was well
I think probably not that many came
I think when it came out the Venn diagram of Doctor Who fans and people to go to Ibiza was very very very small
Which is all the reasons it didn't go down very well. I suspect these days. It's much wider because it's a much broader wider audience
Due to the new series and younger literally younger people enjoying it, so I suspect there's a bit more of a
But that's best when you've taken it out there to do that certainly a choice
Yeah, all customs are like really yeah
I know I had it ready to go just like there's one thing I need to do while I'm there just one thing
Yes, listen to the rapture obviously
It was great news good, and it was sunny it was October, and it was 26 degrees
So no complaints whatsoever, but we're not here to talk about the rapture as much as we do love it
So just before we do dive into that villains trilogy
Like like I said Joe we've had you on before it was near enough couple of years ago now
We're coming up to two years. I think if I came up the date before didn't you was January?
23 23
23 so yeah near enough couple of years and
You've you've done things since then
Yeah, I would have recorded this in 2020 you wouldn't have necessarily know exactly what we're not to just crying doing a lot of crying
Yeah, no, I've done a couple of things a big finish other than that I've been doing
I mean episode two episodes of a kids TV search show new series, which is filming right now, so it's very exciting
That's been it's been a process as I've been a little
Finance coming in from all different countries which means there's lots of notes coming in from all different countries
I did get my one of the favorite notes
I've ever had which was can you turn down the references amount of references to food in your episode?
Because I said I hadn't realized I write food a lot into things because I really like food
So I tend to have people talk about food a lot in my scripts and I started thinking about it and going back to my
Sarah Janes and torture them going. Yep. There's food. Yep. Yep. They mentioned food. Yep. Someone's cooking
So I've done that and I've been doing some theater, which is very nice actually starting some paid theater, which is very good
I've never done before
That's very exciting
I've become a pescatarian. So I will rant about the evils of meat. Well, I don't but I
So yeah, I've been lots of changes, but yes, I've done two things a big finish I think that have come out
But I've got one coming out this month actually next month, but two days time
So yeah, I wrote
The first story of the sort of sequel to the Sarah Jane Adventures, which is about Rani
Bannerman Road
And I wrote a talk through one story
featuring Yanto and Tommy and
I've got a Christmas torchet coming out this year, which is ace and mr. Colchester, which was
thrill
Which I'm very much looking forward to and will in all likelihood be out by the time
This this makes it online. But it's got piece of writing and I'm really proud of
There's four short stories and the second one in particular
I'm very sort of yeah, that's I've done something I've wanted to do
Since the beginning of the year. I saw a film called all of a strangers came out earlier on this year and I
Fell in love with it. I think it's a stunning piece of filmmaking. I wanted to do something
That really delves into sort of the gay life of somebody say in London in the 80s
So yeah, it's
See how it goes down. Hopefully it'll go down well
Looking forward to it. And like I say we
Are we may actually have covered it in a spodkin?
Before this goes out. Oh, right. We never know we're in between series at the moment. So we're
We're kind of recording a few things ready to we'll back up and running soon next month
But we're just we're banking a few episodes and we thought this would be a good one to just have
Ready to throw out
You know if the first few episodes don't do too well we can sort of put look we've got Joe Lidster again
Bring our listeners back. That's the plan obviously
Um, so, uh, anyway the the main theme let's get to our our feature presentation
We're going to be talking about as I say the
The villains trilogy as it's sort of colloquially known that big big finish brought out for the
40th anniversary and it was it was kind of in the build-up to zegrayas as well
Which was culminating two years of a three-year relationship
Um, but we're going to do zegrayas another time. So right now it's omega davros and master
Which I think are
Generally universally beloved. I think it's fair to say i've i've never
I've never sort of caught anybody online going. Oh, no, I can't stand davros. It's terrible and
nothing like that. So
I'm gonna enter this assuming that everybody's going to be happy about it. So
I'm gonna enter this assuming that everybody loves these three stories and they should do they're absolutely brilliant
um
just uh
It was quite different for big finish
Because obviously they weren't doing trilogies at the time and wouldn't really adopt the trilogy format for
Quite a few years after this was probably seven six seven years before we fully got into trilogy territory
Had they done excellus by this point? Well, I was about to ask you that and hope would hope that you knew the answer
I can tell you that they had because we recorded the rapture
Uh, we recorded extra voices for the plague herds of excellus
So you can hear me in the background of plague herds of excellus. So that would have been
Uh 2002 but I think excellus came out
As a bonus one each month into it. I don't think it like dalek empire was like dalek empire. It was a an extra thing
Yeah, was an excellus to give us some of the other three doctors while they did nothing but six months of paul mcgan for the
The invasion of the transom midnight run
After years of like no paul mcgan they're like oh people are really whining about where's colin so we need to
Yeah, like did anybody listen to chimes of midnight and go oh, but where's colin baker?
He's a fan
He's a to be fair probably at that time there were in the way that people are, you know
People some you know some doctor who fans especially
You'll find the older doctor who fans you will get people who you know, I mean loathed a tv movie
So we're very much paul mcgan does not count and that seems so quaint now compared to how much of the new series has been
Um, but there was i'm sure there was definitely at the time people going I won't buy these
Because the tv movie and the half human and the american stuff doesn't count
um
So they probably yeah, but there would have been I imagine there'd been people who wouldn't but I imagine there'd be more people that would buy them
Yeah, I mean I found those first couple of paul mcgan runs to be really interesting
They were sort of very forward looking we hadn't had the new series yet. So it was very much
This is what?
21st century doctor who is
Yeah, um, and you know, we had other attempts we had scream at the shalker and you know
The little bits and bobs like that
But ultimately that that was doctor who for a long time and i'm a bit too young to have been
properly on board at that point, but
um
Part of me wishes I was part of me does kind of wish that those first couple of mcgan series were
Doctor who?
It was incredibly exciting. I mean, I you know, it was very
Because it just felt and it looked the covers looked different everything about it felt new and fresh
um
And it had an arc, you know, which obviously the old series never really had but
Modern television was starting to have more arcs and things. I think lost was a big thing around then so, you know, it was it was
Was very much representing what was being made at the time. I think which then obviously the new series
um
immediately had arcs and stuff because
That's what you expect. Yeah
hmm
so it's
and and these this trilogy sort of loosely ties into that arc because as I said before it's kind of that build up to
zegreus and
that I assume that part of the brief for
For that trilogy or for master certainly was to have a zegreus reference
No, um, I don't think so
Oh, right
I don't remember that being a thing. I think
I thought I'd do it. I had no idea what zegreus was
Um, I just knew it had been mentioned in project twilight and then in the eighth doctor stuff
So I knew and then obviously I knew there was a story coming out called zegreus
Um, but I genuinely had no idea what it was and if i'm honest right now
I don't know what zegreus is. I think it's a time lord or something
But I just thought in a story that's going to be creepy and I want pure horror audio psychological creepy creepy stuff
There's a nursery rhyme there that's been mentioned
And I think it was put in the trailer and I think it was just that thing of going actually
That's really exciting because it's the next month's story. So yeah, no, but I think it was my choice
I don't think I was asked to do it
That's interesting because maybe i'm wrong, but I re-listened to them sort of recently preparing for this and I could have sworn
There's a zegreus reference in each of the three. There's definitely one in omega. I'm not sure about the other two
Maybe okay, I can imagine gary might have said to um nev
Because our confinities about time lords, isn't it? So
It would make sense to mention zegreus whereas if maybe wouldn't endavros and obviously in mine it was a nightmarish voice
um, I think
Yeah, it's well, that's interesting. I always assumed it was you have to speak to gary russle. He remembers everything
I I don't remember yesterday. So I certainly don't remember 20 years ago
But i've got a feeling I thought it was me but I can guarantee gary might say it was him and he'd be right
Now, yeah, yeah, and I just like I say I was listening and just thought maybe there's something going on here
They were obviously they were building up to this
There we go
um, so the first one in our trilogy is omega which explores omega brings back in collier as omega
and
sort of works as a sort of sequel to arc of infinity, um, but
Very much does its own thing as well. I think it's a never found in script. So it's
witty it's full of
moments great moments and has
a very very memorable twisty cliffhanger
Which when I very first heard this story had to listen to about four times to go what really really?
Um, but it pulls it off. It's it's a great little story. It's
And it's a great start for this this trilogy as well. Um,
naturally just because of the way I prefer my doctor who I would be
Least excited about the fifth doctor story
In a trilogy like this
um, but no, this is this is up there with the other two, um
And it's very much enjoyable. So gareth do you want to do you want to talk to us about omega get us going?
Sure. Um, so i've i've always kind of struggled with arcs infinity. I've I always feel it's a very very techno babble
Heavy and kind of three doctors as well. I'm clearly team not omega
I'm afraid just from just from the classic serious point of view because you've got great performances
But the moment people start explaining antimatter to me bits of my brain die
So I just I just can't get on board with that. There is a spectacularly complicated
Star trek original series episode about antimatter and it always just makes me just think nap pass
um, but with omega with this particular release, it's
It's nev fountain and he's tremendously funny and it's an incredibly grim comedy
um
It's got kind of whiffs of douglas adams in it. There's a bit in it. I've written this down. Um
Somebody refers to an electronic sulking machine, which is just pure
marvin really
Um, and it's it's it's very clever the way it kind of calls forward to things that are going to happen
There's another line of joy down fooled by a convincing copy. How embarrassing which is amazing the second time you hear it
um
And it's it's interesting that you were saying about peter davison. Why not peter davison necessarily the best doctor being
Maybe not the one you would at a certain age want to be the lead of something in doctor. Who I felt that way in audio
I like him a lot better. This is a great showcase for him because he gets to play
I don't know how much we we can spoil it, right? I mean, it's pretty old but um, he gets to play
I think our listeners have heard it
They might have heard it. Um, yes, he gets to play different characters basically, um, I think an interesting thing
Which is which goes for all three and i'm interested to hear about the kind of genesis of master for this particular aspect
Is that they all kind of try to interrogate who this baddie is, you know baddie in inverted commas
Are they horrible? Are they something else and omega?
I think I go back and forth over whether this or master is kind of ultimately the most sympathetic to the character
Omega I feel is very much. This is a tragic person
What a pitiful figure lets we we need to
This guy needs a hug. You know, this bloke has been broken by history
By and ultimately by the doctor because you know, they're merging in arc of infinity
That's caused him to have he was already in a very bad place, but he's worse now because of that specifically which is so sad
Um, and now he has to just relive history over and over again and I think
That whole thing is just such an interesting choice to go
Um, we're we're nearing an anniversary. We want to do a story about a character. Let's bring back. Um
Sorry, anything else? Let's bring back the nighmon and say what actually what if the nighmon's, you know
Got a lot on his plate right now
You know, you wouldn't expect to go there and with omega of all characters because you just think of stephen thorn and his mighty booming voice
The idea that that character is just going to be this
this pure
unfortunate person
um, I just think is a really interesting take and the whole thing is framed as just this kind of
Wicked comedy just like
Evil things that you find funny in it, you know characters like having their hands locked off and stuff
it's
Just a very very unusual
Piece of doctor who in a very weird piece for peter davison, but in a great kind of challenging way
and yeah, the part three cliffhanger just
Oh god, like the fact I don't think I was spoiled the first time I heard that
I feel very pleased about that just to get to that point and go
I don't know what I was doing the last three episodes. I was completely wrong and it's so rare that
you know the rug pull like that, but
But yeah, I think omega it's it's not the most kind of obviously sort of
Fan-pleasing one of the three. I mean we'll get into like why those other two might have more of that to offer but
It's it's kind of the oddest one in in some ways and I think
Revisiting it is always a very pleasant experience and going god. That was that was really interesting
Uh, yeah, so for the 40th, I think uh, yeah big finish
Did did did well, you know for us think we were quite lucky
Certainly started strong. Um, it's
That that douglas adams comparison is very interesting because i've made it before as well
I've sort of said if if we've got douglas adams at big finish is nef fountain and he's fantastic comedy writer and
I'm a big big dead ringers fan. So sort of listen to other things. He does as well
I'm gonna i'm gonna plug his books as well. If you ever read, uh,
He did those mervin stone books geek. Tragedy is they're all very good
But geek tragedy is just like the perfect i've not been to many doctor who conventions, but that is it
That is exactly the experience. So it's really i'm gonna have to look that up then
Is there anything you'd like to add about omega?
Joe
um, I
I haven't listened to them in 20 years
But I remember when it came out, I didn't know nev at the time at all
Um, and we're good friends now, but i'm then I can't remember when I did first meet him
But I remember listening to omega when it came out and being slightly like
Oh, that's so good. Oh, no
What's going on?
um, but I think
One of the things I did love about the villain trilogy generally was I think other than the excellus thing
It was the first time they were doing full stories without companions and I think that allowed
You to do a full story without companions
and I think that allowed you
to do a different type of story, so
It allowed nev to do a story that can do the episode 3 cliffhanger, which it wouldn't have been able to do if
nester had been there
um, and I think that's
Just the genius of nev. Um, I think what a genius idea to do
You know, he's really clearly sat down and gone what can I do that
Come up with this astonishing. I think one of the biggest and best
Beats that's ever happened in a big finished story to this day
I think it's so clever and I just remember finding the story really really funny
Um, because I don't I hate time lords. I hate
They should always be gone
And to do a story that's a comedy involving the time lords. I think it's such a clever idea
um
So yeah, no, I think it's a an a an astonishing
Uh piece of work. I think it's very clever very funny and very sad at plays as well
There's a real the other thing nev does is there's always actually real emotion in it as well
It's not for just sitcom. Um, there's always a bit of depth to it as well
um
He's done a companion chronicle called perry in the piscom paradox
I think it's called and that's an astonishing piece of work again very clever very funny but real
emotion and emotional maturity to it
Uh, which he brings to his to his writing and yes, I very much recommend is it mervin?
Stone stone. Yeah, i've got where have I got i've got them
Behind me somewhere. Um, oh up there. Yes, um, and he's just got a new book out that's come out this year
um
Which I can't remember the name of um, but I know i'm getting it for christmas
Uh, so, um, I can quickly look because it's on my christ
wishlist
Um, but the fan who knew too much
Which I think is the start of a new
Uh series he's doing um, which I can guarantee if it's anything as good as mervin
Stone is going to be a brilliant
Glorious read I think i'm just sold on the name of that one. I think on the name alone. Yeah, it's such a great name
It's worth coming for yeah. Yeah again. He wrote I think he's very good like a bit like he does with the time lords in omega nev
I've write about fan culture
Rightfully mocking it for many things even though he is, you know as big a nerd as anybody but also
Gets the actual heart of why people are fans and why we love doctor who and why we're sitting here talking about it
You know things that I think he's very good
being able to
Laugh at himself and at fans while at the same time never laughing
Laughing sorry laughing with them but never laughing at them. I think it's what he he does
It's very clever and he does that I think with omega
I think all the stuff about time travel and the time lords and stuff in that if I remember rightly is very much
Aren't the time lords a bit boring?
But isn't it fun that they exist and we love them, you know, we love the nonsense of
You know
The people around that table in the five doctors, you know, there's so much joy to be had about them
Um, so I think yeah, he's a he's a really really brilliant writer
I just I like to think that he looked at that, you know those around the table in the five doctors and went
What if they went on holiday?
Exactly, you know, it's fantastic. It's brilliant because again, it's so doctor who
You know doctor who trying to do
this mysterious race of godlike beings
And it's three actors sat around the lit up table and all sat on one side because it's studio setter
You know and saying the most bobbins lines you've ever heard, you know
And that's that's the joy of doctor who is that when he tries to do
You know, it's better when it's not doing it. So when it does do it, it's great fun
Yeah
Absolutely
Um, so so that's one strong story down in our in our villains trilogy
Um, let's let's move on straight to story number two then which is the collin baker entry into the trilogy. It is
davros
um this
I really really love the basic idea of this story, which is well what happens when davros is there but the daleks aren't
which is ultimately the
You know the sort of catch of this story
um
and it's great it leads into sort of a lot of the stuff that
As far as I can gather it's set before revelation of the daleks and revelation of the daleks kind of serves as a sequel to this
um, i'm happy to be corrected if either of you have any of course a reference that i've not or anything like that, but
Um, I really like the idea of sort of davros goes corporate
um, it's it's such a great concept and
You know, I think this is the first one terry mulloy did for big finish as davros. So it's
It's amazing how he just picks that character up
And it's exactly the character that we had in revelation the daleks and to a lesser extent I guess remembrance the daleks
um 15 years after all of that and
Straight away. He is davros completely and totally davros totally recognizable amazing is the character
But doing something totally different. This is really
uncharted territory for davros and
when when he's not got
An army of daleks to order around or he's not got to scheme against his own creations. He's kind of
Left to scheme and manipulate other people
um
And the results are just brilliant and i'm really glad that this story exists as far as i'm aware. We've not had another
dalek-less davros story
Um, I feel like it's something i've seen but I can't
Yeah, it's
It feels like something that i've done again
Because this is so good, but i'm not I can't think of anything off the top of my head right now
um and
Part of me sort of wants them to do another one and part of me doesn't because it's never going to be as good as davros is
So it's i'm kind of torn on that one. Um, so gareth talk to us about davros
Um, I think this might be
either
Either the first big finish story I ever heard or one of the first few a friend sent me copies of a couple
I've bought them all since just to be clear
Um, but a couple it was the holy terror spare parts and davros. So he set the bar
Unfairly high I would say but uh, but no, no, no, it's all been great since but um, but yeah davros is is another
Knockout really. Uh, it's interesting. Uh, joe you mentioned that um
You know, this is the doctorless thing and that's something I think we've seen so much of since especially on tv series
Because you know christmas is they'll go
It's it's a between period we can we can have that um that you kind of forget how weird it was
Back at the time, but it works really well for these three stories because it gives the doctor the excuse to just
Crystallize and like zero in on like why I don't like that guy or you know
I think the problem is going to be here. So it's it's a it's an interesting kind of production
Uh choice that you you know, don't necessarily really notice. It's being important as a listener
Um, but yeah, it really frees the story up
So the doctor can just be the the greatest pain he can possibly be and in this he is an absolute sod
Just just horrible to davros all the all the way through
Um, it's fantastic. Uh johnson like you were saying
Uh with with davros gets a job is is the the the byline of this and I think that's hilarious. Um, it does kind of really
Uh, it feels like the same sort of space as as revelation of the darlings that it's it's very season 22 the kind of
Corporate nastiness was very big back then
um
And yeah, you know, there's this this idea that davros might might be going straight maybe towards the end of the story
He says he was trying to go straight. I don't think that's necessarily true, but he might even believe that
Um, but it's a really great story for kind of showing the sort of lengths of his character and the kind of um
You know the extremes because I think it all goes back to to you know, good old michael wisher and the bit with uh,
Yes, I would I would press that button and I would do it and you know screw everyone
I would do it just so that I could say i've done it and this story has a few examples of like exactly that and you know
There's a bit where he comes up with this formula that will allow him to
Uh, just completely wreck the stock market if if he feels like it or more importantly
Uh rig it so he could be incredibly rich and people around him are like
Oh, wow, you've come up with this incredible thing that will allow you to be incredibly rich and and he's just like
Yeah, I guess
Yeah, I guess it's it's better that I just use it because I can just create chaos. It's as long as we're clear
I want to use it. That's that's him. He he just wants to do the thing because he's discovered how to do it
There's a wonderful. Um
Flashback in it where he just he describes his uh
His sort of incineration back when that happened and he became the the disfigured creature he is
Um, and he says that he could see he looked at his hand and he could see his skeleton
And he started just wiggling his fingers so he could watch them move and like the idea of being that far gone
It's like a scientific
Absolutionist that you're like i'm in tremendous pain, but this is cool and he just doesn't care
um
so that's all fascinating and we get kind of and i've really no idea how the kind of um
How the relationship between this story and the eye devos series works
I don't know if that was already kind of on the on the go because that came a few years later
But we see these little chunks of his life that would sort of get revisited in that series
And again, we kind of see kind of hints of his his true character and he's kind of like
He he likes to explore ideas to their to their horrible conclusion
But we also see hints of him as an emotional being he has
Is it shan or shaan this person in his life?
um
Who ultimately he betrays and has killed?
um
I want to say because he finds out she's sleeping with somebody who isn't him
That's that's not the reason he thinks it is he thinks it's you know, he's got this whole psychosis where he's like
Oh, no, this this guy must be a traitor and therefore you're a traitor. He's worked it all out
But um this this horrible truth that he doesn't want to face is that well actually he quite likes this person
And she doesn't feel that way about him
So and he's just desperate not to face that and the idea that davros could have this incredibly human motivation
Just buried under all of this stuff and you know to survive that he's absolutely determined to believe that um
No, I don't have anything. I don't have any emotions at all. I am a monster. You know
Thank you doctor for for trying but no, no, I i'm gonna stick with evil and it's just
And it's just you just don't buy it by the end of the story. You think this is this is a this is a
man with problems and
He's he's allowed himself to be overcome by these
Monstrous impulses that he does have
um
And yeah at one point he kind of refers to the doctor as being the closest thing
He's ever had to a friend which is just fascinating obviously
You know colin's doctor
Not really gonna help that impulse along unfortunately because he's not very nice to it
Um, yeah, it's it's a tremendously kind of well cast audio
Um, I haven't checked this is is it bernard horsefall?
Is that yes? Yes, when we're getting that wrong? Yeah, every time I listen to it, I think
Was he still around? Did they really have bernard horse? Because he I love bernard
He's amazing and anything he's in but he's great in this because you get to see some of that. Um
um kind of evil corporate characters who are you know,
Maybe as bad as he is they kind of as the story goes on
Uh him and wendy padbury who apparently can do evil very convincingly
Um, they get to kind of mellow a bit as they kind of go. Okay. Wow
I knew he'd be bad, but I didn't think he'd be that bad
but um, there's there's a great early scene where um
Um bernard's character has just been systematically killing people on this spaceship until one of them could open the door
It's like well, I hope you get it right because i'm running out of guys here
Um, so that's it's a it's a great dynamic and they kind of have this awkward relationship with the doctor where he's um
You know, he's he's trying to just go well, I can just do all of the amazing stuff that you need done
You don't need davros and they want both of them, of course
Um, yeah, and it's it's funny too. I mean I would say in a kind of distinct way from omega
It's got a kind of season 22
uh
Terrible people just just being dreadful kind of comedy workplace awkwardness the doctor, you know
Jamming screwdrivers in his ear to get out an annoying little voice in his head. Um
Yeah, I would say it's probably of the three
The least sympathetic to the villain character, but I think in suggesting that he has these depths that even he
Is just not remotely in ready to kind of look at or interrogate
Uh in a way, I think it's it's just as sympathetic because it's just kind of going well
He's never gonna get any better
but uh, you know
He's he's not as evil as the doctor thinks he is or as he thinks he is and that is
Is sadly a comfort to him to think he's basically a Dalek
but um, yeah, so
It's pretty strong. I think pretty good. So yeah, it's
Some really interesting points there. Like first of all, yes, it's a fantastically cast story and
As you say bernard horsefall just could never do any wrong
um, and I kind of love
him and wendy pampery is this sort of
Oligarchal double act
Um, they're absolutely fantastic. They make such a great pair
and it's
It really is a good character study into davros and you know
We do get to see a side of him that we really really don't anywhere else
um
You couldn't do this story with daleks. The whole point of it is daleks aren't there
But it doesn't make a big thing about the daleks not being there. It's it's it's
very much a case of
Davros is just doing
What he's doing and the fact that the daleks aren't there don't affect him
Um, and i'm you know, it would have got in the way if we'd have had nothing but oh, but I need my daleks
Where my daleks i'm going to build some more daleks you i'm going to turn you into a dalek
Which is what we get with anything else with davros in you know, we we have done experimental stuff with davros
I mean joe you've done it yourself in terra firma
Sort of with his identity crisis in that and that kind of thing
Um, you know, we've had uh, is it the curse of is it the curse of davros?
The right one where yeah another colin one the one where him and colin do swap season the episode two cliffhanger is
The doctor was davros all along and that kind of thing freaky friday with davros
It's really good freaky friday with davros i've never heard it referred to as that before but that's
Fantastic. Yes. Um
So yeah, it's a great story and I I do think that
omega
Could never have fit into season 20
It is not a season 20 story at all
But davros could have fit into season 22. It could have fit, you know nicely in there just after the two doctors or whatever
Um, it's it's it's a very obvious here of a story. It does have that theme of corporate greed, which
Does sort of run through quite a few stories in
Season 22 so it's quite interesting that it's this one flies a little bit closer to home than omega does
um and
I mean masters
Totally unlike anything in the mccoy era, but we'll we'll get to that in a minute
Um joe is there anything you'd like to add about davros at all?
Uh, I remember it had the best trailer
big finish had ever had
Um, because I think lance had written a speech for davros
No, no, he hadn't no because it's it jim mortimer does the sound design. So I think it might
Be a jim mortimer thing because he did the music and the sound for the rapture
Um, but I remember is the davros trailer was so effing brilliant. It was just so exciting
Um, and also davros being back was exciting. Uh, and yeah, I'll remember it was just being uh, it being such a clever
Scripts that's really about stuff. It's you know, all the stuff about
Corporate greed and and all that sort of thing is actually jim mortimer's
Um, and then I'll remember is I did listen to it a few times because yeah terra firma
I wrote as a sequel to basically davros and remembrance of the daleks
So there's a lot of stuff in terra firma of the doctor and davros talking
That slightly acknowledges the thing in davros where he says you're the closest thing i've got to a friend
Because obviously davros has had this long ridiculous
Long life where everything he's ever known is dead except for the doctor. So for me, that was what you know
That established in davros really did help mold terra firma
Yeah, I remember just being brilliant really really clever
Yeah, just really clever
Yeah, it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just
It's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just
Yeah
Yeah, it i've definitely picked up on that sort of terra firma following on from davros thing before it
They're probably the two stories that explore the character the most I think
Um, is it the juggernaut the other colin baker and davros story in which daffodils gets a job
And uh the juggernauts mixed up occasionally because they do kind of do
corporate davros both of them do
um, but it's
it's obviously a great idea it obviously works and it's worked very well in two very different ways and
um
Yeah, it's it's great that
Obviously you did pick up on davros and you didn't work with that to get to get where you did with terra firma, which is
Is like I say another great exploration of the character
um
And uh, we're joined by somebody else. We're joined by mansaur. Hello mansaur
Hello
Hello, thank you for for jumping on i'm glad you could join us even if it is a tad late
So it's it's the seventh doctor's entry in this trilogy
I mean first of all, I love the fact that this trilogy does cover
The three classic doctors that big finish had at this time and obviously megan was doing megan things
We've had a couple of series of him and we've got zegrayus
Coming up after master, but it's
It's really kind of great that this is what they did for
Kind of those doctors in the 40th instead of the simas of time two or whatever
You know the temptation must have been there to kind of go. Well, let's just do that again
um, but they've not instead they've used it as an opportunity to
To sort of explore what makes the doctor tick by exploring what makes his
most iconic
adversaries
and omega
tick um
So yeah, it's it is a wonderful trilogy. So we're on to master and
We've sort of said that you know, um omega goes very much against just standard davidson. It's not a season 20 story
Davros kind of plays to colin baker's strengths and could fit into season 22
Uh master
Is it fair to say it's it's a new adventure story. Is that kind of where you were aiming for with it joe or
Yeah, I'd suppose so I was
Given the fact that he would be
I think the main thing I was slightly rebelled against was I was told it had to be on an alien planet not on earth
and I didn't
and
I'm not necessarily a huge sci-fi fan
I like things like doctor who and star trek because they tend to tell horror stories and
And then there's a kitchen sink drama then it's a comedy then it's this I tend to like no
I don't really I wouldn't you know, nobody got a massive interest in developing an exciting new alien culture planet thing
um, so
I had that and also I had I was given the thing that he'd lost his memory and the big thing for me
Was trying to work out
the
Difference between omega and davros and the master is that omega and davros have backstories even if davros is is is an
Much established prior pre genesis of the daleks. You do know that at some point
He's been in accident. You do know about the war on scarrow that he's you know, omega
We know pretty much his whole backstory or you know, certainly a big chunk of it of what defines him as a character
With the master there hadn't been that any kind of exploration and also I kind of feel
Because he was created as the doctor's moriarty. He doesn't really have a massive backstory
So sometimes he wants to control the universe. Sometimes he wants to destroy things
Sometimes he wants to it's all personal with the doctor. Sometimes the doctor just happens to bump into him, you know, so I felt he's
Less of a character than omega and davros which meant I really had to go
Well, what am I going to do because it's clearly meant to be a character exploring story
So I thought back and I actually went back to um
His first story the the autons and there's a scene in that which is must have been amazing to see at the time
And still I think holds up really well, which is the scientist in the
Is it a tower there's a is it a dish it's a dish isn't it? Yeah, the telescope telescope thing
Yeah, and there's a scientist and he kills him and puts him in his lunchbox
And I watched that and when
The master doesn't need to do that. There's no reason for him to actually kill that scientist. He could knock him out
He could do anything and we know actually that scientist has a wife and he's you know
Of a boiled egg and things like that
So actually it gives gives gives a little character and then the master kills him for no reason and I thought and actually
That's what the master does the master kills people. So I basically
Looked at serial killers, especially jeffrey darma
And basically read a lot about jeffrey darma what made him become jeffrey darma
And about that sort of first death that is wrong
But if he got caught after the first death, he would not only would he have literally not been able to commit all the other murders
But he mentally might not have done
Because the first death I think that jeffrey darma does is is more of an accident
And then and I suspect that's probably a case of a lot of killers, you know serial killers is
Wait a minute
This feels good and wait a minute. I'm okay doing this
This is who I am and so it's kind of a justify it to yourself kind of thing
So with the master when I decided I was going to do that
I kind of thought back to the new adventures and thought about how they made the doctor times champion
So would the master be death's champion if he's causing all this death if that's the one thing the master achieves in every story
Is death that makes him death's champion?
and
I then realized I suppose yeah, and as somebody who'd enjoyed the new adventures that it was quite new adventure
So I decided to set it on a planet with the adjudicators from from the books and things like that. So
I could do a sort of basically it's
Victorian Edwardian earth, but it isn't really it's an alien planet
Which is my sort of workaround of set it on an alien planet. So yeah, I think I knew it was quite new adventure
but I think also
It's so funny to think back like we're talking about this trilogy and you kind of you know
There'd only been one master story
Since survival they'd been just be oh, I think it did a couple of new adventures, but they'd been dust breeding and then
master
Davros hadn't been in it before whereas now like you say there's the juggernaut says the curse of davros says there's all these other davros stories
so I think
at that point
I felt that the new adventures leading into the tv movie which i'd really enjoyed because I was really enjoying the new adventures
Was very excited about the tv movie. So loved that sense that they did of leading up to
And stopping just before so for me master was very upset
After he's left
Chris
I don't know how to say surname
Um, and he's traveling alone before lung barrow and stuff. So for me master was always is set in that world
Um, so yeah, I suppose you would call it, you know, so new adventures, but also I think
To be totally honest, I never really felt
A big need to make them feel like they're off their period
Um, I love it when they do. Um, I think it's so much fun when you hear a solvester. That's very clearly season 24
Um, but I as a writer never really
Did that with the rapture or the master or anything? I think that I did afterwards. I don't think I ever really
Set out to go. How can I make it feel like it's part of season?
Whatever it is
So it's very long winding answer. Sorry. Yeah, it's basically yes. I probably went down more of the omega way of yeah, it's not
You know, i'm not i'm not going this is season, you know, he's just dropped ace off
I think that probably works to its advantage though
It's the fact that I mean the seventh daughter has a lot of eras doesn't it? There's something you know
Everyone likes to point at the seventh daughter and go. Oh, yeah, that was season 24. That was
Shortly after survival. Oh, that was towards the end of his life
And it's I like the fact that with the seventh daughter we've
I mean we can probably work out it is towards the end of his life
But he's got this sort of muddy period where all sorts of stuff happens and he's got this sort of
All sorts of stuff happens and he's
sort of a terrible person to varying levels and all that kind of thing and
I like the fact that it's still sort of shrouded in mystery after
Even now, you know, even though big finish have tried to pick it out and they've tried to
Sort of go well this happens here and this happens there
and it's
It's certainly like a nice
Sort of vague idea, but it's I think that is something the new adventures did. I'm not overly familiar with them
I've read a few but not many
But they do have this sort of very unique feel
and I think
master certainly leans more towards those than
season 24 at any rate. Yes
Well, I think there was a thing in the new adventures if I remember rightly again, I've not read them in years, but
There was a sense of the seventh doctor novels wrapping up things
Yeah, that the seventh doctor was fixing things
Because he knew his time was coming to an end and I think that was my thing with master was
He knew his time was coming to an end. So he made a deal with death
to to give the master
Ten years, I think of of a nice life
Yeah, so that's really interesting because I didn't know that about kind of mentally placing in the new adventures
I did read them all quite recently. I had never read them
I completely missed that whole period and then I picked them up because of big finish because they did love a war and I thought
Oh, okay. What else happens and read them all?
Yeah, definitely towards the end. The seventh doctor is is very much trying to get his house in order and also
I think trying to
Kind of atone really I think after once you reach that point where where ace leaves for good this time
I think he's kind of the the book range as well as the character has kind of grown up a bit
And kind of learned to you don't need to be angsty all the time
But in that context, this is this is interesting because that means he's kind of like
This one's gonna be rough and he's like, okay. I'll I'll step off the I'm not that bad actually train and
Yeah, so over here to something that we learn
Is is one of the the sort of darker nastier things about him that he didn't necessarily know
Yeah
Which is by the way, I mean, this is kind of jumping ahead really but that's that's quite a controversial choice. I would say
It's a kind of go
The doctor I suppose yeah
It didn't
I didn't think it was that controversial because I didn't think there'd be that many more stories. So I think
You know, I felt I don't think we knew the tv series was coming back. Did we at that point?
So I think we didn't know there was going to be a new tv series
At that point big finish was 12 stories a year
So I felt the likelihood of
Ever ever, you know with sylvestre and jeffrey beavers ever do another audio together
I didn't you know, whereas now obviously they've done loads because
Big finish does a lot more stories. So so it starts to actually have more of an impact. Whereas I think actually if it had been this one-off thing
You'd have gone. Oh, you know, I don't like that. But you know, it's happened. Whereas. Yeah, I think
I didn't I wasn't bothered about doing it. Um, and the thing for me was it was um
What's most interesting for the character? What's most interesting?
For both characters the main characters the main characters the main characters the main characters the main characters
The main characters, um, and that was the most interesting thing I could think of. Um, I thought it was
And basically what I was doing was it is absolutely a reference to an unearthly child
um
it's literally
The doctor is going to smash someone's head in with a rock
um
In an unearthly child and it turns out according to what?
His vague memories or dreams or what the master says are is that that's what he did as a child
Um, so it wouldn't be so the caveman wouldn't have been his first one
Um, if only he'd had an ian
Yeah, exactly. And and my whole point was they're both they're children in it. They are
very specifically children. They are nobody neither of them have set out to
Do anything? Um, you know, and they've been taken advantage of by death, but it's all
A story, you know, it's like I genuinely I haven't again not heard it in years
But if I remember rightly, it's all
quite
We don't hear we don't see it happen. It's not like the davros flashbacks. We don't actually
Get a very clear scene of it happening. We get a child saying stuff and things like that, but it's all told us a story
So yeah, I mean
It's probably been contradicted by a million things by now
But you know that's such a for me again, I'm I'm less it's a bit like not making it fit into a certain style or season
um
I'm less interested in
I don't care if someone
Contradicts master or people think it doesn't happen for me for that story. It had to be that very simple
switch of the characters
To explain the doctor and the master's actions in the story if it hadn't been that then it wouldn't have been a very good story
Or it would have been a weaker story. I think and I think when you're doing a
You know an audio drama
Whether it's part of a series or not you you go for what is that best story? Not what?
Fits in with something else or or does that while still I think staying consistent to the characters, you know again
I probably wouldn't have done that if it hadn't been sylvestre's seventh doctor, which had gone very dark in the new adventures
Um and was hinted at going dark in in the tv series, you know
I wouldn't have done that if I was writing a you know, if it had been a peter davison story
um, I don't think I would have
Felt that that fitted in with the current the existing characterization
it's interesting that it is sylvestre because um
He's effectively
He's he's one manipulation ahead of himself
Uh, because this is famously the doctor, you know chess player and all of that and in this one we find out
You know, there was a time when he did something that even he has deleted. Yeah
Uh, yeah, that's that's a great idea. When I was listening to these three again, um
with this story there is kind of the
Forgive me. There is the little fan voice at the head that's like oh, I don't like this. The doctor's a bad guy
You know, it's it's the childish fan voice. Uh, but I thought what was really interesting was once it got into it
um
The doctor already feels bad because in his version of events he uh, he didn't kill anybody but he effectively
You know there was a cover-up. He worked towards that. He knows it was wrong
So either way he's leaving gala fray a guilty man and that's part of that
So then to later on find out well, actually it was the other thing
Um kind of doesn't really change that it's still the same and I thought it was very interesting. Um
Similar in a way. I don't know
Well similar to omega in that there's kind of this cross pollination between the two characters the doctor and the villain
And in this one very very explicitly. It's kind of a there but by the grace of god thing where it's just
You know the doctor and the master
They're different people but they could have had very different lives
If not for this thing and you know that you've written in the thing where the doctor kind of goes
How can anyone forgive me for this? This is appalling and the master's like we were kids. It's it's it's not great
But you know and this this figure
That exists took advantage of us. So
so yeah, I think um
It's a great kind of study of that and kind of the whole thing is just
Very very themed about the motives of evil and how all these people are kind of and that's interesting that you're saying about that
That like dharma was going through your head when you were writing it, you know, well, there we go
There's there's a person where motives don't really enter into it
And you've got these characters all kind of talking about murders and stuff going like why do people do these things?
And the idea that there is this death force that just kind of
Manipulates you but even under that there are moments where um
It's interestingly the master kind of isn't in this really or not. Not very much. We've got the person but um
The the voice only comes out a few times and um, there are moments where he's like, oh no, shut up
I did it all and he's he's he kind of doesn't agree with death
And that's that's another thing that it kind of shares with with davros really that you've got this character
Who's got these these motivations and they're like, yeah, well, that's one version. Um, yeah, and I think that's great
I do think yeah separate from that
Yeah, no, I was just gonna say as I think no
I do think I it was probably again a conscious decision of mine to have him as a different character because I thought the master isn't
someone who believe would sit down and
discuss
Things with well, maybe he would but I don't know I just I
I grew up with Anthony Ailey's master who I adore
But he is batshit crazy. You know, he is not
Someone who's gonna sit down and go. Oh doctor. Let's talk about the themes of evil
Or let's talk about our childhoods, you know, um, so I suppose I grew up because I grew up with that
Um
For me in the case of master it wasn't like whereas I would believe the doctrine davros because we've seen them do it
The doctrine davros have had proper conversations in the tv series. You know, omega is a very
Not relatable necessarily character, but he is a character with a very understandable backstory
That I can understand even in the three doctors. You can understand the tragedy of of his character. Whereas the master, you know,
wears disguises for no reason and
You know, yeah
It's the best thing in the five doctors, which is a story full of many many best things
But he's absolutely one of the best things in it
Because he's just glorious and I you know and Anthony Ailey's scale is just
Glorious and I you know and Anthony and he scared me as a kid
I mean he was I found him quite terrifying but he yeah, I think as a character it's harder to
accept the master
The guy we saw in time flight is going to sit down and have a chat over brandy
You know about jekyll and hyde or whatever
You might do it in his car lid outfit
Yeah, exactly
Well, it's an audio drama. Perhaps he's wearing his car lid outfit throughout
In every release listen to it again
I can see the master that we see in survival
Getting to this place. Yeah, you know in the same way that I can see the doctor that we see in survival getting to this place
Um, you know, I think that's andrew carmel, isn't it? That's andrew carmel going if we're having the master in it
He's got to be a serious character. He can still be terrifying and he is terrifying in survival
But he's actually got to have a very clear motive of what he is doing in that story
Ravel and jest we've got antoniani on a contract
So just bung him in you know bung him in a costume and stick him in a mask at the end of episode three
Stick him in a mask, you know, I think you know andrew carmel, you know
Who I have so much respect for he's sat there and gone if we're doing a story about the master
What is his motivation in this story?
So survivor is one of the few stories where I would say he argued that he's got a very strong motivation which is hope to survive
Which is you know, it's such a stunning piece. I think that's one of mainly his best performances as well
It brings out like a much more threatening
Take on his character. Well it's threatening but also
Even someone like him or I don't I never met him but you know by all accounts. He just wanted to play cricket or something
um
Anybody like that?
You know there are actors who you know, I imagine do a big finish now who genuinely don't really care about doctor who they're doing it
Because it's money they're doing it because they get to see their friends and everything like that
But no matter how much there might be like that you give them something like survival
And you're like, oh, yeah, this is why I act, you know, it's not just ripping off masks and and being you know menacing
It's actually i've got a proper character and i've got a thing of you know, i'm seducing midge
I could you know in previous stories I could just hypnotize people but there he's really got this sort of seducing thing going on, which is brilliant
Um, you know, so yeah, I think Anthony is Anthony and he's brilliant in that story
Because he's written as you've got to do some acting, you know, you can't just be panto villain
I feel like sylvester is at his best when he's got good material as well. I think he
Yeah, I think he really rises to the job. But I think any actor does I think genuinely any actor you you give them
Especially something like doctor who are dark shadows, so dark shadows as a range I produced and i'm thinking of an actress in that
Nancy barrett and she got to play all these different characters and she's big and bright. She's brilliant
She's great actress and it's big and fun and we did a story where her character became an alcoholic
In the audios and her performance is absolutely astonishing and I think it's the same with any actors
They they can have fun with parts of that but there are times
With dot two or dot shadows or with any sort of that sort of i mean star trek the next generation
And you know the star treks do it, you know, sorry actor from star trek for 20 episodes of this season
You're standing there saying technobabble
But for one episode or for two one episode your parents are back or the second episode everyone thinks you're dead
You know you get an episode where you get to do the actual acting and I do think that with
With you know, that happens a lot with with somebody like antony ailey, you know
Yeah
was that a conscious thing then with with jeffery because I think uh,
It's interesting that if you if you imagine it's 2003 now, then you say we're going to do a story with with omega
There's probably going to be some people who are like, oh
They couldn't get stephen thorn. Oh, that's a pity or like with mastey kind of thing. Oh, antony ailey
We can't get him anymore. You've got these two actors you have done the role
but
Some would argue the story not through any thought there's you know
Didn't give them a huge amount to do or or wasn't their finest hour and with omega you've got obviously that weird torda force
performance there
And with master, you know, you've got this absolute kind of throwing jeffery beavers who is
Unbelievably great but the kind of giggling menace thing
but if you kind of throw him into a negative and you have this character you spend the whole time with this guy that you
Really like and you kind of feel that you've got this kind of bubbling menace and there are these moments where he kind of
um
You know deliberately sort of toys with saying nasty mean things and that must have been quite a kind of
uh pleasant shock for some listeners who are like
Oh
We're incredibly lucky that jeffrey beavers is is doing this
Um, and he's gone on to just be the synonymous kind of big finish guy. Yes, which is brilliant
um, and he's such a nice guy, but he um
Um, I remember just listening to dust breeding and being like wow, what an amazing voice. Um,
I have seen the dead the assassin. Is it the dead the assassin he's in?
Oh, that's the other one keeper trochan. He's in keeper trochan. So i've seen keeper trochan, but
He doesn't even do a lot in it. Does he really?
You know, it's dust breeding was where I went. Oh, that's a voice. That's brilliant. Um
And that was one of the big moments in big finish history
The reveal of the master in dust breeding because like you we had no idea
I had no idea. I was listening to it and just went oh
Right. Okay, that's happening. Um, but yeah, so it was that but also actually what it did do
That was great was it gave me
The chance to although obviously you can't see the visuals. He looks hideous
um, and so actually what you have is you have
A character who looks hideous but isn't a bad person is a good very good person who saved a lot of lives
And you have him in I love the idea of him being again. I watch ghosts like growing up, you know
That's imprinted on my brain and it's very much that thing of seeing horrible things but happening in a gorgeous victorian
Wood paneled room, you know, and I think
That was a big thing being able to go. All right for this for this character
He can say that he looks hideous and then I
I'm so bad. I haven't listened to it in years. Has he had an affair with the woman?
He
Does she fancy him? But he he she loves him. She fancies him. She loves him even though he looks
Awful
Um, which again, I just quite liked that idea of doing something a bit
unexpected
um
In that way, I have to ask this is not really related to what you've just said
But was it in any way inspired by human nature? Because you've got a time
Lord who is out of their mind and called john smith
That just tickled me halfway through. I suddenly thought oh, it's quite like that. It's the master's version
No, I was I was given the fact that the master
Had lost his memory the master was on the alien planet and he's lost his memory and it's sylvester. That's what I was basically given
um
because I think
Have scott and maybe mark right or maybe just one of them had been working on the idea
and
They'd had to drop out because they were doing
One of the project stories and so gary asked me because i'd done
What he saw as good character work in the rapture?
Which as I say was thankfully not yet released
um
So he knew that I would be someone he'd be interested in seeing what I would do with the character
Um, so yeah, no, it's funny because you again i'd love to human nature. Um
But yeah hadn't crossed my mind at all
Um, I think I just did john smith because that was always the joke
It's yeah, it does feel like a pointed joke at the doctor's expense
Yeah, he always calls himself john smith. So I just thought
You know, it would be funny, you know, it would make sense for him to be called john smith. Also, it's quite tricky
I think
Coming up with a different name. I'm sure at one point I tried to do an anagram, but I couldn't do it
So it's quite tricky to come up with a name that
Feels slightly iconic. You know what I mean? He can't if he was just called derek
He'd be like, all right derek. Yeah, are you really the master? Whereas john smith comes with for a doctor who fan listening to it the loaded
Connotations of how the doctor calls himself john smith, you know, that's his fake name
um, and of course
Oh, i've just realized that
It's been 20 years. I've just realized because
So he's using the doctor's name and he should have been the doctor all along
Clever well done
20 odd year old me that was that was quite clever. You've you've done a seventh doctor. You've manipulated ahead of yourself. Yeah
Yeah, I have i've yeah juggled all the balls. Uh, yeah
If you want I can edit that bit out and we can pretend it was the plan all along
No, no, don't i'm awful for it. I did a torture this year though last where it came out this year
James goss asked me at the recording. He did a little q a afterwards and he said so when did did
And I was like, what do you mean? He went well how the story does it and went
Oh, I didn't realize it did that
I'm not necessarily the most intelligent of writers. I just write it and then i'm like, oh yeah, that does make sense
I suspect that's a running theme with doctor who though like a lot of the brilliant stuff is
By accident by accident. Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. I mean master is absolutely fantastic. It's
It really does drill down on a character that as you say has never properly been explored
It's amazing really that this is the first proper exploration of that character
um
and
Giving him, you know the role that you do that that john smith persona
um
I really love that first episode where like the doctor's hardly in it. He has a few lines at the start and then turns up the cliffhanger
Uh almost as if he's the villain of the story like that's a horror ending reveal the cliffhanger reveal who's the villain
Yes, that was that was definitely intentional at the time of going
He's when the master turns up or the daleks turns up this time
It's the dotstone because it's the disruptive force that's going to destroy the lives of these three
really
Quite nice people. I think they're probably not as obviously not as nice as they seem but you know
Um, he is the master. One of them's been doing a bit of murder, but well, yes. Yes
But murder's aside. We don't know that. He's quite a nice bloke. Yeah
Um and again fantastic bit of casting philip maddock, you know, like wow astonishing
Yeah, it was it was and of course that thing, you know philip and dan have gone now, but um, I remember them being
Being such a friendly cast. It was such a really nice
Recording it's really hot. I remember that
but you had
Jeffrey and
Sylvester and philip
All of whom were you know a good I would say 20 years older than say me
Um probably older than that and then you're charlie haze playing the maid stroke death
And she was I think she's younger than me and I just remember it being so like she was
They all found her really sweet because she'd highlighted her lines in the script
Um, whereas they sort of these old pros who had these stories to tell and it was just a really really lovely thing
And they really did that thing that
I think I certainly took away from it
Um as a writer it is
Philip I remember philip
said knew I was in the recording booth, I think and he knew was there and he said he made a very
Point of stopping and saying I just want to say what a brilliant script this is
Which you know, I think he was telling the truth, but it was that real thing that you learn from it of going
Every writer and actor need you know
It takes you 30 seconds to absolutely make their day and let them know that this is you know
You're doing something good and I think he I really got that from him. So, you know, I was always i've done it with actors
I know and with other writers when i've scripted it or produced or directed
Um, it was just you know, you can learn from you learn so much from someone like philip maddock
just an astonishing
Actor and an astonishing voice. Um, and a really really lovely man
So it was yeah, I don't even think at the time I realized what an ornith was. I was writing for someone like philip maddock
And I think I was just like oh great cast always knee in the dalek film, you know
I don't think I was fully aware of actually what uh, what an amazing
Actor and he was and what a great career he'd had
I think one of the one of the best things i've ever heard philip maddock do is the audiobook to um
alan garner's weird stone of brazingaman
Which is sort of set around
Where i'm from?
All right, what a voice just it brings a it's a good book
But really really brings something to it really brings it to life and
But yeah, maybe it's I mean master is just a it's a drama full of voices to just die for isn't it?
Yes astonishing. It's one of the best collections of
incredible audio voices
That must be it feels like a play as well. I imagine that would have appealed to uh, a big part of it
um a big influence on me was uh amadeus
uh the um
Peter schofer play because i'd done that at school and that was
What made me really want to be a writer because i'd done a lot of amateur dramatics
um
And school plays and everything about school plays tended to be and I love them
But they tend to be musicals like sweet charity and the king and I and
And all sorts of things you probably wouldn't be putting on these days in a school
um and then
When we were in our sixth form, I didn't do the drama a level even I really wanted to we couldn't make it fit
with the ones that other ones I did want to do but I basically skived off lessons to take part in their
a level their production of amadeus and I played salieri in it and
And I don't mean this is a bit of a brag but I
Was great because I really got that my best mate played amadeus and he his mom who loved me
Was like I can't look at you right now. Um a year later
I was working on a supermarket checkout and someone said oh my god
You gave me nightmares a year ago
But I realized what allowed me to do that was what a brilliant script it was and I think that's when I realized
Actually acting isn't for me. What I want to do is
Not you know never have achieved anything like amadeus but to write something that gives actors good things to say
And good things to perform and I think
with master
There was that sense of it's a two it's effectively, you know, there's amadeus mozart and salieri
So there's two people there's the master and the doctor. There's two people
So I think it takes a lot from that and that sort of classical vibe to it
but also it was me going I
I want
Actors to really have good stuff to do
and
I think you know that gives it more of a sense of it being a play because you know
All doctor who can't be like that. I mean again, we were very lucky with the villains trilogies
I always say, you know when people say that the favorite doctor whose story is blink
I'm like, but it's not a doctor whose story it's absolutely it's brilliant
Because it's not a doctor whose story because it wouldn't work if it was a normal doctor whose story
So and it's the same with the villains trilogy they work because we haven't I was gonna say lumbered
I love the companions, but we haven't got the companions in so it allows us to push the boat out
Or allowed us to push the boat out and do different things and I think you know master would have been very different
It wouldn't have had that play sensibility to it if it had heard mel or ace in it
That really plays to the strengths of audio drama because one approach is okay
We're on audio we can just like go crazy and have like an unlimited budget and
There's a place for that. I think it can work really well if it's like, you know painting visual pictures. It's a skill in itself, but
Yeah, it's like the ones that I remember the ones that stand out like deadline is another one
but that you could just easily see people like transferred straight to like a stage production and
They're the ones that I think that really get inside your head as an audio. Yeah
And then you know, they're the ones probably least like the old TV series, which we all love
But again, I suppose it's like I said earlier on I never really had any interest about
Trying to do that
Even though say I love the Davros story because Davros if you close your eyes you are back. I am back to being
Whatever. I was 10 years old watching Revelation of the Daleks because it it's great because it captures that and I love the fact that
This world exists where there are stories that really go for you are watching season 20
And then there are stories that just don't do that at all
And I think for me the preference was to not do
To do that and I think with master by not having a companion in you know, Sylvester had never been without a companion
So to have him not have a companion allows
a greater
There's more opportunity for for it to be more like a play
So I was just very lucky and honored to sort of get the opportunity to do it
I think if ace have been there he would never have heard the end of it
She'd never let that one go
I don't know there's a version of ace
You know if you've done the version of ace like using ghost light the quieter angrier ace and maybe she's working in the kitchen with the maid
And everything else it wouldn't be as good not as good that sounds statistical, but it wouldn't be the same story
It'd be a very different thing
Because also you'd want to give her agency to want to give her something to do and there really isn't room in that story
For an extraneous character with nothing to do with you again
We were very lucky with the villains trilogy because by taking out the companion
It takes it means you can really focus on that relationship between the two the doctor and the the villain of the story
Because you haven't got another character who you you know
No writer worth their salt wants to have a character who isn't doing anything
So, you know if you've got a companion you want them to be an active and a protagonist in the story
Especially on audio because you forget that they're there if you're not
Yes, I mean absolutely
You know that's such a big thing you have to
Yeah, worry about an audio is that I think I don't tend to worry about writing audio
But the one thing you do have to go is is a character in a scene and they've not been mentioned so far
Because it takes you out of the drama because you go have they been there all this time? I don't remember that you know
So it's always a when I was script editing. It was always the note
I would always I'd always gave is go we don't know this person's in the scene
I don't know if they've been eavesdropping. I don't know if they're in the scene. I don't know if they're standing next to them
Go back and make sure we are aware when they come into the scene
I think that just going back to what we're saying about
You know the doctor being on his own companion this it's something that's been
Explored quite a lot since like the new series likes to do a christmas special with the companion
Just stopping off elsewhere for a little while all that kind of thing
But it hadn't really been done at this point
At all had it you know we'd had the deadly assassin and that was it for 26 years of doctor who and I loved the deadly assassin
It's fantastic and but it doesn't exactly take advantage of the fact that the doctor's on his own beyond
Tom Baker getting to talk to himself a little bit. Yeah, which was the purpose of the exercise. I believe
but
Yeah, exploring that idea in
In 2003 must have been quite I suppose we've done it in sirens attack
But apart from that, you know sirens time against other things. Yeah, so it's just a big fun
Look, we can do dr. Who thing whereas I think the villains trilogy and it all comes down to gary russell
The villains trilogy is gary going we're going we are
Celebrating the 40th anniversary of dr. Who
This is it. There is no tv celebration. We are the people celebrating the 40th anniversary of dr
Who what do we do? I don't want to do that
I don't want to do the five doctors again. Yeah, so let's give all three doctors
the first three doctors a
really strong
character-led story that
Again, I don't want to sound
You've got nev fountain and lance park and you've got two very
Distinct writers you've got nev who we like you say is is basically
Um douglas adams of his of our day, I would say and you've got lance parking who is so entrenched in the new adventures and
What he did in new adventures, which is astonishing
And then you've got me who is a very new young person approaching it very much as i'm writing a story
Not i'm writing a doctor who story and I think what you end up then is these three very distinct stories
Rather than
Let's just you know have daleks, you know, and things like that
Um, which i'll end inky then does in in segreus by not having people playing the characters. They are in the tv series
Um, you know, it's it's again. It's just gary going. Let's actually
creatively
Try something here. That's a bit different to what people might expect
I think some of the most interesting anniversary stories have been
in extended media for dr
Who because I think there was the scream of the shark that was the same time
But then like five years previously one of my favorite books is the infinity doctors
Yeah, which again does it does?
It's a book you could have all the you could do the eight doctors again. Um,
But is that lance parking again?
Yeah, yes. Yeah. Well, I mean that's it. He was you know
Him paul connell and kate orman and that were the you know, the absolutely
defining voices weren't they of the new adventures and then the the the
um eighth doctor books, but um
You know, I think
You know, yeah, it's when when it tries it's something a bit different which you can do partly because you're only trying to sell it to a fan audience
You know you you if you're doing a tv series to do the 20th anniversary of doctor who you want to do the five doctors
That's what a general audience want. You want your mom sitting there going. Oh, that's the one I used to watch and you know
And that you don't want an analysis of the doctor's relationship with omega
Yeah, that's that's that's not what my mom's going to sit down and watch
So I think that is that thing about the extended media is is because it's aimed at the fans
You have a bit more freedom to so that be less, you know
mainstream which is why it's cool when
Extended media takes up that opportunity rather than I think so. Yeah, the six doctors and the seven doctors
Because because we don't need that we've had that we've had it a few times
And I think it's diminishing returns. Isn't it? I do think you know the first time the new series
I mean I can proudly say I'm I wrote the first appearance of the old doctor who's in
The sero jane adventures that predated the next doctor
Um, so I was the first one to do it and then you're the next doctor and it was amazing and I think there is this
If you keep bringing them back because you can bring them back. I mean, that's the thing
We know you can it's a different world to how it was back in the day
You're dealing with actors who are probably retired now
So they will you know, happily come back
Certainly on audio
You can record anybody at any time, you know
I did a dark shadows series 13 part series. I think had about 40 speaking characters in it
None of whom acted together at all
Everybody acted separately, you know, you can do anything on audio and to a certain extent you can do that with tv a lot more now
You can just bring back anyone and do anything because
It's not a multi-camera studio setup
So, you know, how can we get fraser hinds and wendy pabrine on the same day when he's in emmerdale and she's you know
It's like you don't have to worry about that so much
With the way the television is made these days
It's a lot easier to get someone into a cameo, but I do think it is diminishing returns. Frankly, it's um
Oh look there they are
Well before we before we wrap up because i'm aware we're running out of time. Yes. I've got to cook my dinner
Yes, this did me too. Uh, this has this has led me to kind of one more question actually which was
How did we feel about what the 60th anniversary did sort of bringing david tennant back as a new doctor?
In terms of celebrating an anniversary
How how did we feel about that because I know that there are kind of varying opinions of this is absolutely amazing
it's great to have the old team back and
Oh, well couldn't we have done something new or couldn't we have got sylvester mccoy in it even though he was in power of the doctor
A year before that kind of thing. So I think power of the doctor kind of jumped the gun a bit
Right did yeah, we kind of had the 60th on the 59th didn't we some of them I think thought they were in the 60th
But yeah, um
It that one scratched that itch quite well. I thought but uh
But uh, yeah, I thought the the 60th stories were more kind of forward-facing for me
A bit more introspective than like this. Yeah, the power of the doctor had that five doctors vibe in a good way
I thought I liked it but like um
I was sort of against it in principle when I heard he was coming back because it's like let someone else have a go
And I was like there's a video that emerged recently from his first era where he's he's like talking to a fan and going
Oh, maybe in the future you could be the 14th doctor and then he came back and he was there
as a full doctor, but
Actually, I really liked that trilogy of episodes. Um, I did like
Uh the full series as well, but I think I I actually prefer that trilogy of specials. There's something
that feels like
Coherent about them at the same time as they're like wrapping up arcs from like 10 years ago as well. Yeah
Yeah, I thought it was great fun. I think you know if
It's difficult as a slightly older person for me. David Tennant was just the doctor about two weeks ago
You know, it seems odd he could go back, but it's not he's literally a generation ago
It's like if the old series had brought back Tom Baker, you know who?
With no disrespect to any actor involved would be arguably the most popular doctor
Tom Baker and then David Tennant. They're not necessarily my favorite by any stretch of the imagination
But they would be the most popular one. It's a big news story. It gets people watching
But also I think what it did brilliantly was he didn't just come back
He she regenerated into him and that was interesting that that's a story that never been done before
So I personally found it really really really interesting and I loved the story on the spaceship
That was just a doctor and donna. I thought that was a proper classic episode of doctor who so worth it just for that one
Yeah, absolutely
Absolutely
It we kind of got a mini russell tdv series from the whole thing. We got the fun opener
We got the yeah
We got the midnight the blink the kind of different one and then we got the big grand finale
All in the space of three weeks and that was that was kind of wonderful to have and it was a really good
You know
There are sort of arguments where it doesn't celebrate all of doctor who was like no
But it celebrates doctor who's success and it celebrates one of its most successful areas
Yeah, and it's doing something a bit different which is yeah, and it it's brought back an actor who is just so
intrinsically linked with the role that
Why the hell not?
You know
Absolutely. Yeah
Well, I I think we've broken the record for the longest episode of this podcast ever crikey
We've we've we've passed an hour and a half. I don't think we've ever done that before so
So this is probably a very good point to say some emotional goodbyes. So
Thank you so much for joining us again joe. It's been wonderful to talk about a
Very interesting part of doctor who history actually sort of that
You know, how did we do the 40th when it wasn't on telly that kind of thing?
You know, we we didn't have dimensions in time. We didn't have day of the doctor
What a shame
Can't believe I mentioned those two in the same sentence
At the time and talking about like classic anniversary stories
I mean, that's a whole other episode which uh, you can come back and join us for if you want jeff. Yeah
So yeah, thank you very much for joining us joe. It's been great to have you back on the podcast. That's right. Thanks for having me
It's been great to speak to you. Yeah, big. Thank you to gareth as well
Thank you
And a big thank you for mansour for jumping on for the last half. Thank you
Thank you
So we'll uh, we'll be back to talk about more doctor who big finish audio drama all sorts very soon
But for now it is goodbye. Thank you