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You're listening to a podcast of Spurious Morality.

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You're listening to a podcast of Spurious Morality.

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Hello and welcome to a podcast of Spurious Morality.

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I'm Johnstone and with me again I have Connor.

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Hello!

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And that wasn't meant to sound as weary as it did like

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and with me again I have Connor.

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But here we are.

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We all know how you really feel.

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Yes.

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So we came back last week in a blaze of glory

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discussing a lot of Doctor Who-y, Big Finish-y TV things.

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And we're going to kind of carry on with that

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because we didn't have enough time in our already overlong first episode.

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So let's talk some more about things that have gone on

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while we were off air, as it were.

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So it has been a really good year for Big Finish.

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I don't feel as though I've actually...

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I don't feel as though I've fully appreciated this year's Big Finish on the podcast

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because we didn't really do a lot of Big Finish stuff

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before the second series ended and we've had six months off.

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So I kind of feel as though we've ignored Big Finish a bit.

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So should we have a good old Big Finish episode today?

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Let's have a really strong Big Finish episode

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and pretend the TV series doesn't exist

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and Doctor Who just exists on audio, yeah?

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I'm fairly convinced you are slowly taking over this podcast.

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One day. One day.

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But in the meantime, you're stuck with me.

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And I would like to talk about...

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And I did touch on it last week, but I want to go into a bit more detail.

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I want to talk about the note I've got on the running order here is

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all the Morbius stuff.

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Because we have...

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Like we've had nothing from Morbius for...

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Is it over a decade?

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Like when was...

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It must have been the Paul McGahn stuff with Lucy Miller.

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I don't remember any other.

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Like Vengeance of Morbius, which was...

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What was that? Was that like 2008?

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I was going to say, I think 2008, yeah.

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OK, so more than ten years. Way more than ten years.

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And like we'd just had no Morbius.

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And that's a shame because I think Morbius is a great villain,

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particularly the way Big Finish have done Morbius.

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I think Samuel West is a fantastic Morbius.

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And really good take on the character.

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Nothing like Brain of Morbius, because let's face it,

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Brain of Morbius is just Frankenstein on an alien planet.

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So they've actually really...

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They've taken the character sort of in name and legacy only

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and really, really done something fantastic with it.

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I've always been a really big fan of that two-part finale

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to the second series of The Eighth Doctor Adventures,

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which is Sisters of the Flame and Vengeance of Morbius.

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I always thought that was a really, really good couple of episodes.

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I really like the sort of doctorlessness of the first half of it.

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Like the Doctor's barely in the first two episodes at all.

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Also, the first episode, they hadn't split them into two parts

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by that point, had they?

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So yeah, I thought that was a really, really good couple of releases.

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And definitely some of my favourite nitbrigs writing,

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I think, is just excellently done.

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And it kind of felt like, OK, you know, we've got a good Morbius,

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we've got a good actor, let's do more.

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And I've wanted more Morbius, more Morbius.

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I've wanted more Morbius ever since then.

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And in true Big Finish fashion, a mere 16 years later,

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my dream has been fulfilled, and we have had more Morbius than ever before.

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In fact, I think the amount of Morbius content has more than doubled

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this year alone, hasn't it?

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Because we've had three Dark Gallifrey's and we've had a three, three episode box set.

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And that's great.

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So the Dark Gallifrey trilogy, I did mention last time that I didn't really,

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I didn't really click with the first couple of episodes

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and re-listen to them on somebody else's advice shortly before the third one came out.

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And I think I ended up listening to them on the day the third one came out.

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And as a result, listened to all three at once as if it was a normal

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Big Finish three episode box set.

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And that really worked for me.

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It's, I'm really glad we're back to monthly releases.

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There's something at the Big Finish traditionalist about me that absolutely loves a

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monthly release schedule, but maybe Dark Gallifrey or certainly the Morbius Dark Gallifrey release

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would have worked better as a box set as dropping all three episodes at once for us to kind of work our way through.

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That being said, like I say, I went back, I re-listened, and then I listened to the last one.

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And it was an awful lot of fun.

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There's sort of some tantalizing hints about where Dark Gallifrey is going to go as a series,

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what it's going to be.

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There's obviously some kind of storyline going on.

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And I definitely expect to hear more of the fourth Doctor in that storyline because he sort of came from nowhere

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and went back to it and was quite clearly mid-adventure.

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So it's going to be interesting to see how all of that ties together.

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But it was really sort of, it was a good Morbius focus and it did sort of delve into sort of quite creepy,

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ancient Time Lord stuff.

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You know, we had, we had like, think like a, it was like a wooden ship, a seafaring ship, but in space,

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which is very, very Rassilon-era Gallifrey.

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And I quite liked that.

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It was a great concept and allowed us to have some very, very creepy adventures and have to admit,

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the creepiness did disappear a little bit when the fourth Doctor kept like turned up.

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But I'm kind of happy to sacrifice a creepy atmosphere for more Tom Baker.

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So that was OK.

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Really, really good trilogy, though.

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And I, of the two Dark Gallifrey series we've had so far, I've definitely preferred the Morbius one.

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I did enjoy the War Master one.

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It was a very, very different beast.

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I think, again, it's going to be one of those that makes a little bit more sense further down the line.

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It seems to be a coder to Dark Gallifrey, but it's been released as series two instead of series.

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Is it eight, six or eight they're doing? I've lost track.

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But yeah, it was rather wonderful.

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And then tying into that, we had Morbius the Mighty, a War Doctor box set, which, as I said in last week's episode,

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was Morbius pops up in the Time War and just decides he's going to raise hell and go after the Doctor.

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And it's so brilliantly done.

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Really, really effective box set and a really, really good use of the character.

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It's kind of like you want to see Morbius with an army.

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That's how he's meant to be.

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He's supposed to be this sort of mad general war criminal type who leads armies to do terrible things.

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And that's exactly what the War Doctor set had him doing.

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So if I'm right, Connor, you've not heard Dark Gallifrey, but you have heard Morbius the Mighty. Is that right?

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That is correct. Yes. Dark Gallifrey, I'm intrigued to see what happens with it,

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but I'm not dipping my toe fully in. I've got the War Master stuff because I was not ever going to miss.

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So I want to mention just before I talk about the Morbius stuff, Dark Gallifrey,

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we got that surprise final episode from David Warner as the unbound Doctor.

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And I think this is what's the second or third surprise final story from David Warner's unbound Doctor,

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but I don't care because I'll take whatever comes if they want to do another one in a year's time.

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That's fine by me. But yes, the Morbius stuff I enjoyed.

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I think it really suited the War Doctor to have that little three episode arc.

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That's the way he sort of started out at big finish with John Hurt playing him.

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And I think it suits the character to have those three episode arcs dealing with one storyline.

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So that's quite cool. I thought it was a great story.

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I think Morbius really suits that sort of undead warlord that he was presented as in this.

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And he is a bit ranty and out to kill the Doctor, but you can't really blame him after everything he's gone through.

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You know, the Doctor, every time Morbius has had an evil plan, the Doctor's been there to thwart him.

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It's getting a bit funny at this stage. But I thought it was great.

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Jonathan Carly, I have not heard anyone who has a bad word to say about Jonathan Carly's War Doctor.

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He just continually astounds and impresses with his performance.

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And this was not an exception to that. I thought he was fantastic.

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He got a wee bit. I think he felt slightly softer as the War Doctor this time.

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He wasn't just quite as grim and dark as he can sometimes be or his mood can be.

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There was a little bit of a lightfulness and a playfulness to him because he's been out of the war for a little while.

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He's not been well, but he's not been deep in the trenches as we often find him.

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So I think that worked and I really enjoyed it.

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I think Jonathan Carly's fantastic and I'm looking forward to hearing more from the War Doctor again.

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Yes, I did. I mean, as I said in the last episode, I really did enjoy Jonathan Carly's performance

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and thought that it did work putting him up against Morbius.

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And I quite liked the idea of it being a sort of tired and weakened and not very well War Doctor,

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which kind of had its implications. We already had the Doctor on the back foot at the start of the set.

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But it didn't so much happen in the War Doctor set, but it did happen in Dark Gallifrey.

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Exploring Morbius gave us the opportunity to explore Ancient Gallifrey.

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And we got some nice little sort of lorry tidbits in there.

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There was some nice stuff about the origin of the Eleven, for example, which popped up.

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So I did quite like that. There were some just great little moments about Ancient Gallifrey.

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So, yeah, all in all, I have enjoyed all the Morbius stuff.

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It's been very good and I hope we do get more Morbius stuff.

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I hope it's not just a case of he's popped up, appeared in six episodes, gone again for another 15 years.

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OK, so let's move on to another thing that we've enjoyed.

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And another thing that we've enjoyed, according to the list in front of me, is the trials of a Time Lord.

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But I'm actually going to... We did talk about it, I think, towards the end of the last series,

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but I'm going to include the Quinn Dilemma here as well,

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because I think they both make up two very different parts of one celebration.

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The Sixth Doctor is 40. And instead of having what's almost like a big epic 12-parter like we did with the Fifth Doctor's 40,

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the Sixth Doctor's 40 has focused more on celebrating various eras of the Sixth Doctor in varying different ways.

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So the Quinn Dilemma was a nice little anthology six-parter that kind of tied together really nicely.

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The Trials of a Time Lord is somewhat different. It's more of a...

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Let's do something similar to the Five Doctors, but only have the Sixth Doctor in it.

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And I do think that works really, really well. I had a lot of fun with Trials of a Time Lord.

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Quinn Dilemma is a bit more of a serious piece, whereas Trials of a Time Lord kind of goes,

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well, it was the mid-80s and it was over the top and it was colourful and it was camp.

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Let's throw that all in a blender and come up with this weird, wonderful and slightly mad story.

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And I think it worked. It worked as a six-parter. It worked as a Sixth Doctor story.

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I liked the way Perry was included, the way the Master was included, the Cybermen, the Andragums, all of it.

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It all sort of really, really came together and was a nice little tribute to that era.

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It was only missing the Rani. I wish they'd had the Rani in there somewhere.

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But otherwise, it was absolutely spot on and totally understood the assignment.

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What about you?

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I really enjoyed this. I saw mixed reviews, I think, generally.

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But I thought I really liked it. I had a great time with it.

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It sort of makes use of, if you take the Quinn Dilemma, I think the Quinn Dilemma is a celebration of the Sixth Doctor at Big Finish

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because you get Constance and Flip.

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You're getting, you know, it sort of uses some of the Big Finish, Perry stuff as well.

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This is a celebration of the Sixth Doctor on TV.

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I think it makes use of the Sixth Doctor slash Colin Baker's relationship with Doctor Who on TV and sort of satirizes that a wee bit.

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I think that worked pretty well.

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The big thing, obviously, with this is you're getting all the villains.

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You're getting the big, you know, you're getting the Cyber Leader and it's David Banks playing him.

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I thought the days of David Banks playing the Cyber Leader were done.

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He's back again. More of that, please, because he's brilliant.

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We get Terry Malloy back as Davros, which is lovely.

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I thought that I thought it was really cool to hear him again.

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And I think it's been a wee while, I think, since we heard him with the Sixth Doctor specifically.

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So it's nice to get them back together again.

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And we're getting the oldest version of Perry that we've ever had, I think, maybe.

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We're getting Mel and spoiler warning.

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I, you know, spoiler warning anyone who has not heard of Skip Ahead by a few minutes now.

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It really annoys me whenever Big Finish spoil their own surprises by putting something on the cover.

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And it delights me when they, as is less often the case now, decide to keep them a secret and let them play out.

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And you get that lovely, wonderful surprise cliffhanger reveal where there's a random character suddenly starts cackling.

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They play the rubber mask sound effect and suddenly the master has arrived.

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So we get that in this case, and it's John Colchow's master.

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Well, one of his masters, it's his Anthony Aindley.

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Again, I think your mileage may vary on how easy it is to tune into Colchow's version of Aindley.

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I think I can definitely get it. Maybe not so much as Brigadier.

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I think his Brigadier is flawless, but his Anthony Aindley is very, very good.

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And I'm genuinely all up for hearing more of him against the fifth, sixth and seventh doctors.

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And we get him here with the sixth doctor. I think this is the first time we've had him with the sixth doctor.

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And he just turns up and does the master's thing, which is take the, you know, winds the doctor up and has some really convoluted and awful evil plan.

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And it's just a lot of the reviews I have seen for this say that it is the single most 80s Doctor Who thing to ever exist across the board.

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You know, like I think in the music in particular, that stuck out to me that you could really tell there was that 1980s influence on it.

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And they really lean into that. I thought it worked pretty well. I could see this.

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I often whenever I'm imagining a big finish, I'm imagining it as it might look if it was shot today.

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This is one that I was able to picture as shot in 1985, 1986, whenever it's meant to have been, you know, slotted in.

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I think this production from that point of view was superb.

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They really got the trappings of that era of Doctor Who spot on.

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And it's just fun to hear the Sixth Doctor going up against the master and Davros and the cyber leader.

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And that's a wee bit of a celebration. It's a nice little serial.

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I can definitely see myself revisiting it fairly often in future. I really liked it.

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I think it's I mean, big finish of sort of Colin Baker as well, I think, actually,

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have both very openly tried to move the Sixth Doctor away from TV Sixth Doctor.

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Like big finish's Sixth Doctor is very much his own thing. It's a different version of the character.

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It's a more mature version of the character.

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And, you know, they've said from the start, well, we want to leave grumpy, colourful 80s man behind.

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And they really have. They have not ventured into territory like this much at all, really.

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I'm trying to think of some examples. They've definitely done it.

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They've definitely done Campy TV 86th Doctor, but not quite like this.

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I suppose we've had Ultimate Adventure, which is very much designed to be of the time.

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We've had other little bits and bobs, but I think this is this is definitely the most story

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you can throw next to Timelash they've done.

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I was going to say, you know, it reminds me of, you know, those promo shots from Mark of the Rani

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and it's Colin Baker and Nicola Bryant in straw hats with canes.

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And they're doing like it's a flipping old pantomime from the 1950s or something like that.

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That feels like this version of Doctor Who.

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It's the glitzy, campy reality TV version of Doctor Who that you sort of got a lot of like

233
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do you know what it actually is really reminiscent of?

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Have you and this is really specific. Have you seen the collection trailer for season 22?

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Yes. It sort of mixes in footage of the sixth doctor turning up on Terry Wogan

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or Colin Baker turning up on Terry Wogan with the sixth doctor having adventures.

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And it looks it makes season 22 looks like this really meta, you know,

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the doctors being interviewed on telly sort of thing.

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I actually suspect that was maybe an influence on this story.

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But that trailer mixes a lot of the story of Doctor Who with a lot of the behind the scenes

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and promotional footage. And it sort of comes out.

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It was a really cool vibe to it actually.

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And I thought that actually would make a really good Doctor Who story.

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And I think it's this Doctor Who story.

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Yes. Yes, I can appreciate that. Definitely.

246
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But yeah, they've actually done something by big Finnish standards quite different

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with the sixth doctor by doing exactly what the sixth doctor was doing 40 years ago.

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And it works. It's a really good celebration.

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I really wouldn't want big Finnish to be producing something like this with the sixth doctor every year.

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But as a one off, as a celebration of a actually much maligned TV era,

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like unfairly maligned TV era, there's a lot to enjoy in the sixth doctors run.

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I think people do focus a little bit too heavily on the twin dilemmas and the time lashes.

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They kind of miss that there are some absolutely fantastic bits.

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The development of the sixth doctor and Perry's relationship, I actually quite like.

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And obviously big Finnish have enhanced that times a million.

256
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But it is there on screen like that they're very different in Trial of a Time Lord to how they are in season 22.

257
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And when the doctor thinks that Perry's dead, he is genuinely heartbroken.

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It's absolutely brilliant.

259
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And I think that it's very easy to forget that the sixth doctor's era does have all of these absolutely wonderful moments.

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And people do just remember the shouty over the top bits.

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So yeah, we can celebrate the shouty over the top bits because the twin dilemma celebrated the wonderful moments

262
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and the way the sixth doctor's developed at big Finnish.

263
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Overall, though, if we're celebrating the sixth doctor this year, these two releases have hit two very different nails on the head.

264
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And it feels like a very complete celebration.

265
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It's sort of 40 for the fifth doctor, very literally celebrated his different eras.

266
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We effectively had a season 19 story, a season 20 story and a season 21 story.

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This has done more to celebrate the character of the sixth doctor than sort of tried to recreate season 22 and then 23 and then some stuff at big Finnish or whatever.

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It's focused a lot more on the character and the way the character has evolved over 40 years.

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No disrespect to Peter Davison or the fifth doctor, but the fifth doctor simply hasn't evolved in the way that the sixth doctor has.

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And it's going to be very interesting to see what they do, if anything, to celebrate 40 years of the seventh doctor in a few years time,

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because that's obviously coming up now and you would assume they would go for something.

272
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Are we going to get something very, very season 24 and then something very, very season 26 and then something very, very beyond that

273
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and all the different iterations of the seventh doctor we've seen?

274
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Or are they just going to take it literally and go, here's a 24 story, here's a 25 story, here's 26 story?

275
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Do you know what I would love? That's exactly what I would love.

276
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So I know we're getting into speculation here, but for the seventh doctor, the seventh doctor, I feel at big Finnish, has never really done the whole slot in do-zero thing.

277
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They've done that with Mel, but they've never really done it with Ace to my mind.

278
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There's very few stories, one of the very few that I actually think fits into his TV run and isn't meant to take place after is The Grey Man of the Mountain,

279
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because it feels like it takes place pretty soon after Battlefield and it's just the seventh doctor in Ace.

280
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It feels very season 26. I really like the whole feel behind that story.

281
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It's one that I'm going to be listening to shortly because it's the winter and it's Christmas time.

282
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And I love doing the Doctor Who Christmas stories from big Finnish at this time of the year.

283
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But genuinely one of my favorite stories, but purely because it does the seventh doctor's ear well.

284
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It goes back and it recaptures the season 26 vibe and has just McCoy and Aldred.

285
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And much as I love Hex and Chris and Ross and Benny and all those guys,

286
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it gives us a little slice of the seventh doctor's TV era, TV era, which we don't get very often.

287
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And I would like a little bit of that from them. Love the stuff I've had recently. Alexa Karnacki, I think was great.

288
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We had the last day as well, which it happened.

289
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But we never really get the seventh doctor in Ace as they were on TV.

290
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I think we get like Virgin, New Adventures and early big Finnish versions of the characters quite a lot.

291
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But we never really get to go back and play in their TV eras.

292
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And I would like that from the seventh doctor's anniversary specials.

293
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That would genuinely be my wish list for celebrating McCoy's anniversary.

294
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You've now got me thinking what would be the earliest big Finnish story featuring Ace?

295
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I want to say the assassination games, which is very clearly between seasons 25 and 26.

296
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,000
It's after. Oh, yes, yes, yes, between 25 and 26.

297
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Because the doctor changes his coat in it. He changes from the sort of grey coat to the brown coat.

298
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't think of anything that might be earlier.

299
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All the early stuff is meant to take place after. Is it after Survival or after the New Adventures?

300
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I can't remember now. I don't think anybody was all that bothered at the time.

301
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It's after Survival then, isn't it? It's meant to pick up with those early stories.

302
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:17,000
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, we've actually I wouldn't say no to a set sort of set.

303
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Near enough immediately after Dragonfire, like by the time we get to Remembrance of the Daleks,

304
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you get the impression Ace has had a couple of trips.

305
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She's still very obviously new to the TARDIS. Very early days, but I don't think she's brand new.

306
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No, she seems to take the basics of the TARDIS and who the doctor is at face value by that point.

307
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Yes, I think McCoy and Aldrich are strong enough pairing to sustain their own stories.

308
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And it's great to get Hex. Wonderful to get Hex. Delighted every time he turns up.

309
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But I, as I say, really like The Grey Man on the Mountain. I like how faithful it is to season 26

310
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because it does all the things, you know, it's set on, you know, indeterminately present day

311
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or if they actually make a point of not specifically not telling us what year that's meant to be set in.

312
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You get a wee cameo from the Brigadier, which is nice. Instantly puts you in mind of season 26.

313
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It's not even cameo, it's a whole flippin' guest role.

314
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But Ace gets a girlfriend of the week, like every, you know, that's a thing in season 26 is who's Ace's girlfriend this week?

315
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And they sort of make that explicit in The Grey Man on the Mountain.

316
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In fact, they don't sort of do it. I think they do make it explicit in The Grey Man on the Mountain.

317
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That's a bloody great story. I really like that story. More like that, please.

318
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That's the long, the short, but more like that for The Seventh Doctor.

319
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Yes, definitely. I did like that one. And that was kind of the final few releases of the monthly range.

320
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They did that little countdown. It wasn't even a countdown. I think it was The Grey Man of the Mountain,

321
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Plight of the Pimpernel and The Blazing R were the last three and they deliberately went back through the...

322
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So the original lineups.

323
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The original lineup, counting down to the new or to the last, to the big finale of the main range.

324
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Yeah, we'd ditched trilogies at that point and just went back to releasing really good self-contained monthly stories.

325
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I was going to say, the end of the main range had that real revival right at the very end.

326
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It was damn good, those last few stories. Plight of the Pimpernel's brilliant.

327
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It was genuinely one of my favourite Six Doctor stories ever.

328
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:57,000
I really liked The Blazing Hour and it was a very Covid story.

329
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,000
Yes.

330
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:05,000
And we got a few versions of the same story throughout Covid. What's the fourth Doctor one?

331
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,000
Shadow of the Sun.

332
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Shadow of the Sun. I think it was something of the Sun. Yeah, Shadow of the Sun.

333
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:18,000
It's the same basic story but both of them do it very well, I think. Both of them kind of.

334
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:26,000
They've definitely got the same message attached to them and they definitely have very similar stories to tell but they both do it very, very well.

335
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:33,000
We should do an episode on those three stories. It's not a trilogy, it's such a...

336
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:39,000
But let's do a trilogies episode about that last three little stories with the main range Doctors leading up to...

337
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:44,000
We'd have to call it like the beginning of the end of the beginning.

338
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,000
End of the line. It's just called end of the line.

339
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,000
Yeah, end of the range.

340
00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:05,000
But no, I did enjoy those last Covidy days of the monthly range where for various reasons I think there was just this sudden rush of creativity

341
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and we got some really wonderful stuff out of it.

342
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I think it was the restrictions. They got themselves into this habit of doing the trilogies and that was the way Big Finish had to work because that's what they decided they were going to do.

343
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Covid put paid to it because you suddenly didn't have all the cast available and they had to...

344
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:32,000
It was a long time we're just alternated between Peter Davison and Colin Baker because Sylvester McCoy wasn't so handy.

345
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I thought it was absolute solid gold, came out right at the end because...

346
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What is the last three set of stories? It's played in the Pimpernel's actually not in there because...

347
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There's a Constance one, isn't there?

348
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,000
It was Colin the Affair with Constance Clark. It's really good as well actually, I really enjoy it.

349
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,000
Proper season 6B, Batey story, isn't it?

350
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:07,000
Yeah, it is. I wonder whether that's going to...

351
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,000
I was going to say I wonder whether it's going to turn up in the second Doctor stuff. I don't know.

352
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:19,000
Maybe this is... Yeah, I want to do a side... I want to talk about those stories. Let's do that sometime. That last little run.

353
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,000
Yeah, that's an episode. We'll do that.

354
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:29,000
Anyway, you've been listening to the podcast of Spurious Morality Planning Meeting.

355
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,000
Now we're going to get back to talking about While We Were Away.

356
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,000
Yes, quite.

357
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,000
And the next one on our list is another Time War release. It's Time War Reflections.

358
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,000
So we're going into Eighth Doctor Time War territory.

359
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:51,000
And I really, really liked this one. I really liked Cass as well, the sort of set before it.

360
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,000
And it's taken Time War Eighth Doctor in a whole new direction.

361
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,000
It hasn't completely written off the old direction yet.

362
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:09,000
I still like to hope that we are going to meet Bliss again. We're going to get some kind of resolution to where Bliss has gone.

363
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:15,000
I certainly hope we're not just in, oh yeah, Time War did it, and that's it. We never hear from her again now.

364
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:21,000
But what we have got, and this new direction, is very, very interesting.

365
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:29,000
I'm really, really glad that we've got Alex back. Like we've got the Doctor's great-grandson, only he's not quite the right one.

366
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,000
But he is travelling with the Doctor as a companion.

367
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:42,000
And I mean, this set kind of turns everything on its head. So it was your pick, Connor. You go ahead and talk about it.

368
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:54,000
Yeah, so it's quietly evolved, the Time War series, into something that's not quite different, not quite the same.

369
00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:03,000
It's an evolution, I think, more than a reboot. So it picks up straight after, you know,

370
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:17,000
it picks up pretty much straight after the last set with the Eighth Doctor and Alex trying to, they're looking for Cass because she disappeared on them at the very end of

371
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the last one she was in, the last one and the first one she was in, the last series of the Eighth Doctor Time War adventures.

372
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And picks us up in this, it picks us up in this dream world that Big Finish so often do, and they do it quite well,

373
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where things are not as they appear and it's, you know, the world is not fully solid around the Doctor and his companions.

374
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And they're living in this reality where Cass is sort of confined to this house and the Doctor and Alex are stuck in a hospital.

375
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:07,000
And those two worlds almost touch, but they don't quite and stuff's going on around them with time and depending what sector of time they're in for the Doctor and Alex anyway,

376
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,000
they're suffering from different injuries or ailments. That all works really well.

377
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:17,000
And I like how they move the characters through those environments and how it gets presented in the audio.

378
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:29,000
The big thing with this is we get something of a recurring frenemy for the TARDIS crew in Hieronymafriend and I'm really intrigued as to what's happening with Hieronymafriend.

379
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:43,000
They did a really cool thing where they had the lady who plays Audacity Montague in the Charlie era or the new Charlie era as it is now.

380
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:50,000
She made her first appearance with the Eighth Doctor in the Time War stuff with Hieronymaf taking Audacity's face.

381
00:35:50,000 --> 00:36:03,000
And none of us knew that until we heard Audacity and until we heard this box set and Hieronymaf taking the faces and the voices of the Doctor's other companions.

382
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:11,000
We get Harry Morahan playing Hieronymaf in one of these and then we get Conrad Wasmus playing her.

383
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:17,000
And that's a pretty cool thing that even when Conrad's playing Hieronymaf, Hieronymaf is still a she.

384
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:24,000
The characters not changing, but I think our perception of them is depending on what's happened to time.

385
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:39,000
And it's fun to try and work out what's happening with Hieronymaf because she makes a whole big thing that her timeline is shielded and she's protected from the Time War and she's a bit smug about that with the Doctor.

386
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:49,000
But obviously something's happening because her face and voice keeps changing and she's cycling through the Doctor's old companions, specifically the Eighth Doctor's old companions.

387
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:54,000
I have no doubt that we're going to hear an India Fisher version at some stage.

388
00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:06,000
It would be really, really, really funny if we heard a Sheridan Smith version at some stage.

389
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:14,000
I think it would be really cool to get a Nicola Walker version and get to hear Nicola Walker and Paul McGann as enemies of each other rather than good friends.

390
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,000
That would be phenomenal.

391
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:24,000
But we get the Kerri's version of Hieronymaf in this and you know it's played really well.

392
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:30,000
There's a dash of camp in there in the performance I think or maybe.

393
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:43,000
I get the impression that Conrad has made deliberate choices not to play Hieronymaf entirely as Kerri's and there's a bit of a feminine touch there as well.

394
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,000
That at least came through to me.

395
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:54,000
So, you know, we obviously know that, as I say, the Hieronymaf does stay a woman throughout the story, even when Conrad's playing her.

396
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,000
I just think it's been really well handled. I've no idea what's happening.

397
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,000
It's really cool and I'm really invested and I want to find out what's going on.

398
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,000
But it's given the Time War stories a bit of direction.

399
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:24,000
And I think the Eighth Doctor has lost that a little bit over the last while because the switch to these box sets were, you know, at the end of Stranded, the Doctor goes off with Liv and Helen, and then we get that wee cycle of adventures with them.

400
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:39,000
And they're, it's just self contained single stories and that's fine. That's great. But I sort of miss those big old 16-episode arcs and those box set series that likes the Doom Coalition and Stranded and whatnot.

401
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:47,000
Those were my bread and butter big finish when I was getting into the audio stories and I miss them. The Time War is doing that now.

402
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:54,000
We're getting that playing out again and it's playing out once a year in these Time War box sets and I'm really invested.

403
00:38:54,000 --> 00:39:00,000
I think it's a great way to do Doctor Who and I really want to know what's going on. I think her on was really cool.

404
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:16,000
I love that we're not quite sure whether she, like I think she's presented as a villain, but I don't know for sure if she's going, if that's the way she's going to end up.

405
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,000
I think I just really like it and I'm looking forward to finding out what happens next.

406
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:35,000
I think it's a great wee series, the whole mystery surrounding her on because she obviously knows more about the Doctor than the Doctor currently knows because his timeline's been rewritten so much at the moment.

407
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:41,000
And we're getting little teases like her on obviously knows what happened to Bliss.

408
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:52,000
And because she teases the Doctor at some whenever, whenever her on looks like audacity, she teases the Doctor about Bliss.

409
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:58,000
Yeah, I don't really like I'm really invested. I want to know what's happening next. I think her on was class. I think the series is doing really well.

410
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:08,000
And I'm excited to hear more. I think, as I said, given that Time War that bit of direction that was lacking during the first run with Bliss.

411
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:14,000
Not because of Bliss, but that just the story she was in. It was very self contained within the box sets.

412
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:30,000
And this now they're doing a longer term arc and I think it's class. We've gone into this, you know, at the end of this set we're in a totally rewritten universe and I can't wait to get back to it.

413
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:40,000
I think the Bliss stuff did sort of open out a little bit to be a bit more ongoing towards the end, didn't it? Like we had the War Valley Arden then.

414
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:45,000
The fourth set was kind of the repercussions of what happened in the War Valley Arden.

415
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,000
But it had all kind of been undone by the end of the fourth set.

416
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:55,000
But I did like that run and I was sort of like, OK, I hope this is the direction it goes in now.

417
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:01,000
It's not gone in that direction, but it is going in a direction.

418
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:10,000
Whereas the first two and a half Bliss sets, like you say, do feel very self contained and like they're not really going anywhere.

419
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:17,000
And I think if we're going to follow, particularly the eighth Doctor through the Time War, we need a thread.

420
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:23,000
We need to have something to follow. Like the War Doctor is just going to be in the Time War.

421
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,000
That is the nature of the character. That's why the character exists.

422
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:31,000
Whereas the Eighth Doctor is constantly trying to avoid it and failing.

423
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:44,000
So you sort of have to, you have to have something to drag him in beyond, oh, the war is all encompassing because it's not because the Eighth Doctor's lived a very, very long life before it.

424
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:51,000
So, yeah, it is going in interesting directions. And like I say, we've got what happened to Bliss.

425
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,000
We've got Hieronymia. And of course, we have got Cass as well.

426
00:41:54,000 --> 00:42:04,000
You know, we kind of know sort of where Cass ends up or a Cass ends up or something anyway.

427
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,000
Ultimately, we have Cass in the Night of the Doctor.

428
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:15,000
Doesn't recognise the Doctor and is terrified of Time Lords. But nevertheless, it's still Cass.

429
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:25,000
So we've kind of got that mystery as well. And I do hope that gets answered. I hope it's not just something that gets stretched on and on and on and on.

430
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:38,000
I also hope that we get some level of continuity with the Eighth Doctor and Helen after Liv leaves at the end of Stranded.

431
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:47,000
I'm fine for that not to come for a while, but I don't just want the status quo to be the Eighth Doctor and Helen went off and had adventures.

432
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,000
And the next time we see him, Helen's not there. And there's a Time Warp.

433
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:58,000
Like Helen deserves better than just not being there anymore.

434
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:10,000
I think Helen deserves to become Liv and get her own more inexperienced companion to mentor, because I think that's been her relationship with Liv.

435
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:18,000
And much as I love Liv, she's been the Doctor's companion for more than 10 years now, I think.

436
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:23,000
And she's been the Doctor's current companion for more than 10 years in real world time.

437
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:31,000
And I think much as I love her that we've maybe run out of road, I don't know that there's much more they can do with Liv after Stranded.

438
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:52,000
I think there's a lot they can still do with Helen. And I think it's time to move that strand on a little bit and give us stories where Helen gets to be the more experienced companion and gets to look after another younger, not even younger, but less experienced companion.

439
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,000
That's what I want from that strand of the 8th Doctor now.

440
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:04,000
So I've always absolutely loved the TARDIS team of the 8th Doctor, Liv and Helen.

441
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:16,000
But I have to admit in Echoes, which actually was it Echoes? Yeah, it was Echoes, came out after we finished our last series, so is ripe for discussion in this episode.

442
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:23,000
I did feel as though it was sort of treading ground, and we've never had that with Liv and Helen before. We've never had treading ground.

443
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:36,000
Even the two sets that came out the other year with Paradox of the Daleks and the Drax episode and Albie's Angels, you know, it still felt it was moving on those characters.

444
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:46,000
Albie's Angels was a big emotional episode for Helen. Paradox of the Daleks was the first time she met the Daleks and all that kind of thing.

445
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:58,000
And yeah, I kind of want to move on with Helen now. I want to see what happens to Helen next because we've got a lot invested in her character and she didn't have an awful lot to do in Stranded.

446
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:07,000
She was there. She played the companion role. It's not like she was sidelined, but Liv was the one that got the big romance subplot and all the emotional hits that came with that.

447
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:18,000
And you know, the exit at the end. There was an entire final episode that was basically dedicated to saying goodbye to Liv, and then it didn't.

448
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:24,000
They went off and had a load of adventures and then Liv came back.

449
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:35,000
I think the only thing left to do with Liv really is what's the event that makes her decide it's time to go back to Tanya?

450
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:45,000
Because so far we've now had three sets post most of Stranded before that very final scene where she goes back.

451
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:57,000
And there's been nothing to indicate that she's missing Tanya, thinking about Baker Street, changing her mind, wondering if the time travelling life is for her.

452
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:04,000
There's been no movement with that. And I kind of want there to be something. You know what? I want to go back and I do want the normal life on her.

453
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:12,000
And we've picked up after that. We've met her. The Ninth Doctor met her in Flatpak. And that was great. That was lovely.

454
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:22,000
I'm glad there is life beyond the Eighth Doctor. I'm glad that she's essentially picking up a similar role to Bernice or River Song or whatever,

455
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:30,000
where she can meet numerous doctors and it's all okay. We can just drop it in. She's a character that meets multiple doctors now.

456
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:44,000
So they don't fall out. We know that. But what is it? What makes Liv go back to Tanya? What is it that makes her feel homesick and ultimately leads to that?

457
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:56,000
But that's kind of is all there is to do with her now. And like I say, Echoes just felt like it was avoiding that for want of a better way of phrasing it.

458
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:02,000
Yeah, I think there's a little bit in there. I can't remember specifically when it is, but I think it's actually quite early on,

459
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:10,000
where either the Doctor or Helen mentions Tanya and Liv's just like, oh, we'll think about that another time.

460
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:16,000
And like she doesn't want to end her travels with the Doctor and Helen, but she does want to go back to Tanya.

461
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:23,000
And I think at this point in her timeline, she's a bit conflicted about which side she wants to devote herself to.

462
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:29,000
And, you know, the TARDIS is the neutral version. Going with the Doctor Helen is the neutral version,

463
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:37,000
because that's the version that she can choose to stop at any time she gets a ride that she can get off and go back to Tanya, as ultimately we know she does.

464
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:46,000
I think this little strand will be slightly more effective if they hadn't had Liv come back to meet Tanya at the end of Stranded.

465
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:53,000
I think it is, it does feel like it's spinning its wheels a bit. There's not a huge amount.

466
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:58,000
There's definitely a little bit, as we say, Helen gets to meet the Daleks, which is a big companion milestone.

467
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:04,000
I can't believe it's taken this long. And, you know, there's obviously Angels.

468
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:12,000
That's great character story for her. Brilliant story. But there's not a huge amount other than that.

469
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:19,000
And I'm very ready for another series, as I say, with Helen in a more prominent role.

470
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,000
And without, you know, I'd like to see Helen out of Liv's shadow.

471
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:30,000
I think that's where that Strand of the East Doctor has to go next. And if it doesn't, I'll be really, really disappointed.

472
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:39,000
I want them to get back into that ongoing work. And I don't, I get the impression that's not something Big Finish go in for a lot anymore.

473
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:44,000
And I think that's a pity. I think it was the strongest element of those years doctor stories that it is.

474
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:51,000
You can start in Storm Warning and you can follow through the different eras with Charlie and Lucy and then into the box sets.

475
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:59,000
You know, it's one big ongoing storyline. It's a series. It is a series of Doctor Who in the pure in its purest form.

476
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:07,000
And I think losing that with the current run is to its detriment.

477
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:27,000
And I would like them to close up this little mini era of the eighth Doctor living Helen after Stranded as soon as possible and move on to give and move on to a new storyline that centers Helen a bit more and gives her more to do.

478
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,000
And I think that's where it has to go.

479
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:40,000
I think I'm more than happy for. I want that definitive ending. Like I say, I want Why Does Liv Go Back to Baker Street?

480
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:50,000
But I do want it leaving open. I want the possibility of further adventures of Liv and Helen further down the line.

481
00:49:50,000 --> 00:50:00,000
You know, give it give it a few years and then revisit it and we'll all be really happy. It'll be like, oh, yes, fantastic. You know, nostalgia, one of our favorite TARDIS teams.

482
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:06,000
But because they've gone straight to that, it just isn't having that effect.

483
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:21,000
And do you know what I would love? And I don't know whether or not they're going to do it. But if Torchwood ever comes back in some ongoing form, I'd like Liv and Helen, or not Liv and Helen, Liv and Tanya. I'd like that. I think that's a great new home for Liv and Tanya to keep.

484
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:28,000
Because I think Nicola Walker loves doing big finish. I think that's why she stayed so long and that's why Liv has stuck around so long.

485
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:40,000
I would love to hear Liv and Tanya's storyline continuing in the series of Torchwood with Liv getting more involved in Tanya's life, that side of Tanya's life.

486
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:52,000
I also think that, I mean, Nicola Walker is essentially the face of British television at the moment. She's all over the place. She's in everything and has been for a long time.

487
00:50:52,000 --> 00:51:00,000
It's amazing that she does big finish because she seems to be so busy. She seems to work constantly.

488
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:08,000
You know, I watch an awful lot with her and she's been fantastic in all of it and obviously listen to a lot with her in as well.

489
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:22,000
I really don't think big finish should lose her. I really do think Liv should properly get cemented as a, like I say, Bernice Summerfield or the Brigadier or Riversong or whatever type character.

490
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:28,000
Someone that will meet the Doctor across different regenerations in different contexts.

491
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:39,000
Even if we just have her living a life on Earth, like you say, Torchwood, the Torchwood link's fantastic. I really do think there's mileage in that.

492
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:52,000
But yeah, I'm kind of with big finish. I don't want to say goodbye to this Tanya's team. I do want there to be new 8th Doctor, Liv and Helen stuff for the rest of time.

493
00:51:52,000 --> 00:52:03,000
But I also want to see what happens next now. I like your idea of Helen being the more experienced companion and having someone to mentor.

494
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:10,000
But actually, before we get to that, I think we should get to that, but before we get to that, can we just have the 8th Doctor and Helen?

495
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,000
Can we just have the two of them? Because we've never had it ever.

496
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:27,000
Helen disappeared for a bit so we could have more 8th Doctor and Liv. And then Liv did step off the TARDIS and what happened while she was away was never ever shown.

497
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:35,000
So we've never had solo Helen and we've had opportunities for it. So I would rather quite like that to happen as well.

498
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:48,000
For sure. Yes, I think so. I'm just ready for them because that strand of the current 8th Doctor, that's the version of the 8th Doctor that starts in Storm Warning.

499
00:52:48,000 --> 00:53:01,000
That's where he is at the moment. The Time Wars has come ahead. I think it would be a huge shame for them to let that era, that version of the Doctor sit spinning his wheels, not really moving anywhere.

500
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:23,000
And they should also never close that gap. There should always be an indeterminate amount of time between where the 8th Doctor is continuing on from Storm Warning and where the 8th Doctor Time Wars stuff, which from what I can gather, his earliest Time Wars stuff is Classic Doctor's New Monsters chronologically.

501
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:37,000
Yes and no, John Dornie's explained that actually. I think the Classic Doctor's New Monsters stuff does take place before the first Time War box set.

502
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:44,000
But he explained that it only takes place once the Time War box set has happened.

503
00:53:44,000 --> 00:54:03,000
I think he wrote, the Ship of Theseus was the very first story in the Time War run. He wrote it. He says when the Doctor turns up in that story, it's the Dark Eye's leather jacket version, and he only becomes the Time War starts during the Ship of Theseus, is his explanation of that.

504
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:15,000
Because there's the bit where his companion disappears and names change and stuff like that and then there comes a point where the companion disappears and the Time War starts.

505
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:27,000
And according to John Dornie, I'm pretty sure I remember him saying this on Twitter years ago, that is the Time War breaking out and rewriting the Doctor's history that he is in the Time War.

506
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:43,000
Just suddenly, and his history gets rewritten so that he has been so for a while. But when the Doctor and I think it's Sheena turn up at the start of the Ship of Theseus, it's meant to be, like you're meant to picture the Doctor in his leather jacket and jeans from Dark Eyes.

507
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:53,000
And then there comes a point where once the Time War starts and the Doctor realizes he's in the Time War, that's when you're meant to start picturing the Knight of the Doctor version.

508
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:57,000
I've not read that before, that's quite clever. Yeah, I can appreciate that.

509
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:09,000
The Classic Doctor's new monster stories take place before the Ship of Theseus, but only once the Ship of Theseus has happened that's the new timeline that gets created in the Ship of Theseus.

510
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,000
So it kind of spills backwards.

511
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:12,000
Yes, yes.

512
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:21,000
So they do something similar with the Ogrons, don't they? Don't the Ogrons retroactively get put into Day of the Daleks in Frontier and Space because of the Time War?

513
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:28,000
The version of Day of the Daleks that we know and love only happens after the Time War.

514
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:29,000
Yeah.

515
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,000
Only happened that way after the Time War happened.

516
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,000
Yes.

517
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,000
Which I quite like.

518
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,000
It's a clever way of going about it.

519
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,000
Yeah, that's pretty cool.

520
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:52,000
But yeah, so there's an awful lot about the Eighth Doctor. I mean, we've had a new Eighth Doctor set this week as we record. I finished listening to it a couple of days ago.

521
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:58,000
I'm assuming you've not heard it yet, so we'll leave that one for now. We'll save that for the 2024 roundup.

522
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:09,000
So next thing and the last thing to discuss on our list, really, the Lost Stories have come back this year and they were rather good, weren't they?

523
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:16,000
So we had Operation Werewolf and we had Death World. Pick a favourite, Conor.

524
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:35,000
Operation Werewolf, no question. Brilliant to get. Now, that's not to put Death World down in any shape or form, but this is the first time that we have heard Michael Troughton playing the proper second doctor with Jamie and Zoe fitting into the TV stories.

525
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:39,000
No notes. Brilliant. I thought it was fantastic. Really enjoyed it.

526
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:57,000
Yeah, got to agree. And it had the advantage of being an entirely original story that we've not at least seen or heard a bit of before, whereas the last few series of Lost Stories, I've enjoyed, I particularly enjoyed Return of the Cybermen.

527
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:11,000
I thought Return of the Cybermen was fantastic. I thought it was...I really liked Revenge of the Cybermen, but I thought it was just different enough and just similar enough to justify its existence.

528
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:24,000
I felt less so this way about the Ark, although I don't like the Ark in space as much as I like Revenge of the Cybermen, so maybe there's, you know, love for the original material there.

529
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:36,000
Dalek's Genesis of Terror is a thing, and Death World is, again, you know, different enough to Three Doctors to justify its existence.

530
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:56,000
But it was just so good to have a genuine Lost Story second doctor, season six, six parter. Like, I was imagining it in black and white, which is such an odd thing to say, but it's kind of the highest praise I can give it.

531
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:11,000
As I was listening to it, I was visualizing it in black and white. It was just perfectly season six. It's a little bit long. It's a little bit slow. It's a little bit padded. It's a season six six parter. It's supposed to be.

532
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:31,000
That's how they are. I'm sorry, but The Seeds of Death is not a rip-roaring, exciting three hours. It's slow. It's, you know, that's how season six, that's how late 1960s, early 1970s six parters work.

533
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:46,000
And I'm glad they did it as a six parter that's a bit slow as opposed to, oh, we can probably chop this down into four parts and add a bit of pace to it. Like, I appreciate the authenticity.

534
00:58:46,000 --> 00:59:03,000
Yeah, I authenticity feels right. It's not a story I was in any shape or form familiar with. I know some of these lost stories have been out in the fan domain for years and people knew the ins and outs of, you know, the unmade season 23, all that stuff from back to start.

535
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:20,000
I'd never heard of Operation Werewolf. I thought it was just a really fun story. I'm a big fan of that sort of slightly pulpy take on World War II where the Nazis have teleporters and time travel and are trying to extend the Reich through time and across space.

536
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:40,000
And you sort of get that, like, feels like that's the beginning of that sort of thing. There is that pulpy element to it where, you know, the Nazis have teleporters. It sort of taps into that realm of conspiracy theories that sort of surround all the secret experiments the Nazis were meant to be getting up to in the final days of the war.

537
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:50,000
And does that, you know, with them having teleports and they're trying to invade Britain through the air, that sort of, you know, through the airwaves, that sort of thing.

538
00:59:50,000 --> 01:00:11,000
And this ultimately comes down to, is this the first time that we have had a properly full cast second Doctor adventure without narration set in the original TV series run? It is, as far as I know, and it's brilliant. It's brilliant to get that.

539
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:26,000
Early Adventures are wonderful. This is the first full cast story with a really damn good second Doctor in Michael Troughton. I can't wait. I haven't listened to it. I've only listened to it once so far. I can't wait to do it again.

540
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:38,000
I thought it was a really strong story. Very, very strong cast and fantastic to revisit that era in a full cast way for the very first time.

541
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:52,000
I definitely like more of that. I'm sort of at the stage now where I think that, you know, is it perhaps time we recast Victoria and we had some season five? Or we may be at that point now as well.

542
01:00:52,000 --> 01:01:04,000
I'm always going to complain that we don't have enough second Doctor at Big Finish. We have been starved of him. He has been the least represented Doctor at Big Finish since the start.

543
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:21,000
We've got Michael Troughton now and I will always, always, always complain until this changes that one set a year, same with the first Doctor, one set a year of the ongoing first Doctor, second Doctor adventures is not enough.

544
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:29,000
Apparently it's been mentioned in the podcast that this is going to change further down the line, but there's no sign of that happening yet.

545
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:39,000
So yeah, I will always complain that same with the first Doctor adventures, just one set a year is not enough at all.

546
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:54,000
But we have had a lot of second Doctor this year. You know, he's popped up elsewhere. We've had two lost stories. He's even popped up in a Paternoster box set to great effect actually. I really enjoyed him in that one.

547
01:01:54,000 --> 01:02:09,000
Worth noting that Paternoster box set second Doctor is set during the Raven stuff. She's referenced. So it's part of the ongoing slightly alternative one.

548
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:31,000
I'm enjoying those sets. It's good, but it feels as though it's a story that, a storyline that maybe needs to, maybe not entirely wrap up, but maybe we need to break away from. Maybe we need to go on the run from Raven and the CIA and all that for a little bit.

549
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:40,000
I don't know. Like I say, I'm enjoying them, but I feel as though I want the second Doctor to be doing something else, even if it's not quite the second Doctor.

550
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:50,000
They've got a great concept there, sort of not quite unbound Doctor number two. And I kind of, I want them to play with that a bit.

551
01:02:50,000 --> 01:03:01,000
I want them to have him bump into something from the third Doctor era that's familiar with him, but he's not familiar with that kind of thing. Maybe.

552
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:09,000
Have him meet the ambassadors of death after the ambassadors of death and not know who they are. Something like that.

553
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:29,000
But yeah, I think that it's good that we are getting more, but we definitely need more. And the way that's been supplemented at the moment is the second Doctor and the first Doctor as well, to a lesser extent, popping up in other ranges, other series.

554
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:41,000
And like I say, that's rather quite good. I'm happy with that. Now let's get the second Doctor into River Song, because as far as I'm aware at this point, he's the only one she's not met.

555
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,000
I think so. Yeah, I think so.

556
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,000
Oh, she's not met Jodie yet.

557
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:47,000
Not yet.

558
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,000
Matter of time. Come on, this is big finish. Matter of time.

559
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:54,000
Oh, I'm sure. I have no doubt that River Song is going to turn up.

560
01:03:54,000 --> 01:04:00,000
Like if we got her next to Eccleston, we're getting her next to Whitaker. It's happening. Yeah, I would imagine so.

561
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:09,000
Yaz, I think, is less likely to meet River because she doesn't know the Doctor had a wife.

562
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:18,000
There's a bit where the Doctor mentions her wife in the Sea Devil story in After Flux and Yaz had no idea that the Doctor was married.

563
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:25,000
So we may not get Yaz. I hope we get Jodie. I'm sure we're going to get Jodie Whitaker and Alex Kingston in some form or other.

564
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,000
Yes, I'd be very disappointed if we didn't.

565
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:36,000
So all that's left to do really to wrap up our return to podcasting is what we're looking forward to.

566
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:40,000
What's coming up that we're particularly excited about?

567
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:47,000
Any particular releases in 2025 that we really need to get our ears around?

568
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:54,000
Yes, absolutely. January is looking like a lot of fun. Classic Doctors, New Monsters is back.

569
01:04:54,000 --> 01:05:01,000
We're getting the Krylletains, we're getting the Lupari and we're getting the Monks from Peter Capaldi's time.

570
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:11,000
Did you see, just as I mentioned the Lupari, that Chris Chibnall has apparently offered to write a Carvanesta story for Big Finish if they ever use them?

571
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,000
Oh, yes, I saw this.

572
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:20,000
Chris Chibnall has said specifically that he will come and write Big Finish if they're going to bring back Carvanesta.

573
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:27,000
I think they would be mad not to take him up on that. I think they would be absolutely insane to not do that.

574
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:35,000
Please, Big Finish, do that. So we're getting that, which is a good lineup actually.

575
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:38,000
You mentioned we're getting Michael Troughton in other places.

576
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:43,000
We're getting Michael Troughton as the second Doctor with Jamie and Zoe.

577
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:47,000
They're doing the thing with the Classic Doctors, New Monsters sets again with companions.

578
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:52,000
And Rey from Delta and the Bannermen is McCoy's companion.

579
01:05:52,000 --> 01:06:01,000
And hopefully not just for that. Hopefully she's going to do more than that, which I think has been hinted at but not announced properly.

580
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:05,000
I think it's been whispered at conventions and maybe not, maybe shouldn't have been.

581
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:11,000
But as far as I know, yes, I've heard rumors that that's going to be a thing.

582
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:17,000
January also brings us the Fugitive Doctor, Joe Martin's introduction.

583
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:32,000
Well, not her introduction to Big Finish, but her first own release as the Fugitive Doctor, the first to start her ongoing storyline, which hurrah, come on, cannot wait, cannot come soon enough.

584
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:40,000
Flicking through, we're getting another season seven story from the third Doctor and Liz Shaw, Doctor Who and the Brain Drain.

585
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:46,000
I do like that they're doing a Doctor Who and The title. I like that a lot.

586
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:58,000
Call me Master's coming as well. I'm excited for that because Sasha Duan felt like a big, you know, regular member of the Big Finish repertoire company or repertory company for a wee while.

587
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:03,000
And he's coming back now as the Master, which is a lot of fun.

588
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:13,000
Looking forward to that. Announced as of today is Ace and Tegan in River Song.

589
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:19,000
At the time of recording, that was announced just before we started recording.

590
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:28,000
And that's a thing. So that's sort of playing in power of the Doctor territory. I like that we're jumping straight into play with stuff from the 13th Doctor's era.

591
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:41,000
It feels like 2025 is the year of the 13th Doctor at Big Finish, which I'm all for. I think that's fantastic that we're playing in that bit of the sandbox.

592
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:53,000
And to cap it off then, I'm really, really excited to get the Jodie Whittaker and Mandip Gill stories. They're definitely my most excited for for next year.

593
01:07:53,000 --> 01:08:05,000
We've done a whole episode out about those, so I won't wax lyrical about it for too long, but genuinely cannot wait for those. I'm really, really excited.

594
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,000
Yeah, cannot wait.

595
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:20,000
They're all sounding very, very good. I'm going to add the fact that the audio novels are coming back to the list. January gives us The Lord of Miss Rule. We get a Ramana one story.

596
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:26,000
We get even more Second Doctor in January as well with Zygon Century.

597
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:38,000
I know it's had a little bit of a mixed, oh, do we have to do another set about a monster kind of reception? But I think Zygons are interesting enough to do something like that with.

598
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:52,000
And we can have them sort of hanging about the earth for a long, long time and just infiltrating society. And I'm hoping that's the direction that goes in. It certainly sounds like it's going to be.

599
01:08:52,000 --> 01:09:01,000
I think we've got to wait until November for it, but after more than two years off, Gallifrey War Room is due to come back this year.

600
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:13,000
I sincerely hope that that isn't delayed again because ongoing Gallifrey is by far my sort of big finish highlight.

601
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:24,000
It's another one that's just been very consistently strong for 20 years now. It's had its ups and downs. It's moved through different storylines.

602
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:35,000
We've been in the Time War for quite a long time now. We're in a deeper, darker stage of the Time War, but it's still really, really good stuff, really interesting stuff.

603
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:47,000
So that's one to look forward to. As you say, though, it's the Jodie Whittaker era stuff that's coming in that I think is going to be the sort of headline for the next six months or so.

604
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:59,000
We've got the Fugitive Doctor, we've got the Darwin Master, and we are getting Jodie Whittaker and Mandic Gill. Hopefully there's going to be some other stuff as well.

605
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:08,000
They've not actually announced a lot. Normally going into a year, I feel like we've got pretty much the first six month schedule laid out in front of us.

606
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:14,000
I feel as though we've got January, February, and then it starts to drop off a little bit.

607
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:25,000
We've got Lost Stories, Genesis of the Cybermen should be interesting, and then we've got another unannounced Lost Story. Could be anything.

608
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:30,000
There's a lot coming and I think there's a lot that has the potential to be brilliant.

609
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:42,000
The wish list, top of, is still more novel adaptations, I think. But I think we're on for a nice varied year. I think there's some good stuff coming.

610
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:47,000
Oh, we've got David Bradley, First Doctor, as well.

611
01:10:47,000 --> 01:11:07,000
I was just about to jump in and say that's coming in September. I'm really excited for this. I cannot wait. David Bradley, his take on the First Doctor, and having that little run of stories he's done with the other guys from Adventure in Space and Time.

612
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:20,000
Far and away one of my favorite bits of big finish ever done. I think those are great. That's a great little set of stories. And I like that it's doing the old heart thing of one story running into each other and you're getting a little ongoing storyline because you do.

613
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,000
And we're still waiting on a cliffhanger resolution.

614
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:36,000
And I sort of hope we get that. I know it's been rebranded as Unbound, but I hope it's not a, let's knock those five sets on the head and start again. I really hope it's continuation.

615
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:51,000
So yeah, I think, and this is this is strong word perhaps but I think it's genuinely scandalous that this has been given an Unbound tag, because David Bradley is the First Doctor, he's been on TV as the First Doctor.

616
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:58,000
He's not an exact sound like for William Hartnell, sure he's not. I don't care. He is the First Doctor.

617
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:16,000
I think those guys from an Adventure in Space and Time I think do an excellent job of playing those characters, so I am not thrilled about the Unbound tag being applied to this series and I really hope it is a continuation of the storyline that went on from the

618
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:20,000
earlier First Doctor adventures.

619
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:35,000
I think, I think I can live with this being shunted off into another timeline if these are the same versions that we've already heard at Big Finish that it does pick up from that earlier cliffhanger.

620
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:39,000
And you can continue to listen to this as a series.

621
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:53,000
At some stage, these versions, you know, the David Bradley and co those versions of characters do come back to the Prime Universe, and I can live with this being an alternative take on the First Doctor's era.

622
01:12:53,000 --> 01:13:06,000
If it continues to be the same versions that we've heard at Big Finish so far I will not be thrilled at all. If this turns out to be a completely new Unbound take on the First Doctor era.

623
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:21,000
I don't know which way it's going to go yet. I'm thrilled that the cast are back. I'm thrilled that they're continuing to play those characters, but I want it to be a continuation of what we've heard from them so far I do not want this to be a new start.

624
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:40,000
Yeah, I'd very much rather they just retroactively made all the other stuff Unbound as well and let us continue. But realistically, it's, there's no reason they can't all fit into the same universe. I think they're probably just rebranding it so we don't have to active current Prime Universe First

625
01:13:40,000 --> 01:14:01,000
Doctor's at Big Finish, but hopefully it won't be too overt and we can still enjoy it all within one continuity or whatever. So that's, that's probably all we've got time for. We've done another bumper episode. We've, we've got some bumper episodes already recorded for this series.

626
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:05,000
I suppose we've taken a six month break.

627
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:26,000
Well, yes. I think next week's episode may actually be the longest we have ever done. I think it might be our longest episode ever. However, there is a reason for this, because a few of us, not you sadly, Connor, you couldn't make this one.

628
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:43,000
Absolutely got it not to have made this I'm really I'm genuinely really disappointed I couldn't make this because it sounded like a brilliant conversation, but at least you can listen to it as a surprise. But yes, next week's episode, we are joined by our first ever returning

629
01:14:43,000 --> 01:15:05,000
guest on Spodcast. We recorded it a few weeks ago, and had a very very in depth conversation with Joseph Lidster about the Villains trilogy that Big Finish did for the 40th anniversary of Doctor Who. So that is Omega, Davros, and of course, Master, which was written by Joe.

630
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:18,000
We have a really really nice deep dive into particularly that third story and sort of its origins and the ideas around it and it is a really really nice, a really nice chat that we had.

631
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:42,000
So I'm really looking forward to that going online next week and being shared with everybody because it's, like I say, it is a bumper episode it is a long long episode, but it was such a fantastic thing to be part of and be able to record so I'd like to say I'm looking forward to that being online so that one's next week.

632
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:51,000
Otherwise, throughout the series we talk about the original Doctor Who on bounds. We'll be talking about character options, you're doing that one Connor.

633
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:52,000
Yep.

634
01:15:52,000 --> 01:16:05,000
Season by season, we'll be coming back and we'll be picking up from where we left off, I believe we've got, is it 15 going out next or 14? I've lost track. I think 15 is the next one.

635
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:07,000
I think so.

636
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:16,000
Then 16 we've actually done as two parts we had so much to say about the key to time we had to split it into two. It is absolutely fantastic to be back on air.

637
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:24,000
I've enjoyed the break but I've realised how much I missed it just in recording these these couple of while we were away ones.

638
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,000
So, yeah, plenty coming up.

639
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:33,000
But for now, we will say goodbye. So thank you and goodbye, Connor.

640
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,000
Thank you very very much. I'm delighted to be back doing this again.

641
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:43,000
It's good to relaunch Spotcast and long may we continue to do so.

642
01:16:43,000 --> 01:17:07,000
Goodbye now.