WEBVTT

00:00:00.430 --> 00:00:03.270
Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This

00:00:03.270 --> 00:00:05.490
Just Fantasy, the podcast where every other week

00:00:05.490 --> 00:00:08.189
two nerds get together to rate, read and review

00:00:08.189 --> 00:00:12.029
a fantasy novel. I'm your host, Geordie Bailey.

00:00:13.050 --> 00:00:15.929
And I'm his surprisingly cute alien dog, Duncan

00:00:15.929 --> 00:00:19.390
Nichol. Duncan, there were so many things you

00:00:19.390 --> 00:00:21.469
could have gone for there. Why did you do that

00:00:21.469 --> 00:00:25.210
one? Because I love the character of Woola. And

00:00:25.210 --> 00:00:27.609
if you ever see the Disney film, it's just ace.

00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:32.340
I gotta say, Duncan, I did mean to watch the

00:00:32.340 --> 00:00:35.579
Disney version of John Carter in advance of this

00:00:35.579 --> 00:00:38.140
episode, but I did not manage to find the time,

00:00:38.219 --> 00:00:41.219
so I apologise for that. You are most certainly

00:00:41.219 --> 00:00:43.420
forgiven. But yes, that's what we're talking

00:00:43.420 --> 00:00:46.780
about today. Princess of Mars is the first John

00:00:46.780 --> 00:00:50.780
Carter book by famed author Edgar Rice Burroughs,

00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:53.200
written in, well, I'm not quite sure when written,

00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:57.560
but first published as a novel in February 1912?

00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:01.140
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, actually, you make a

00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:03.659
good point there, because I was having a quick

00:01:03.659 --> 00:01:06.700
scan of a Wikipedia article, and unsurprisingly,

00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:10.829
this was an originally serialized series. Yes,

00:01:10.849 --> 00:01:12.549
it was. I believe it's called Under the Moons

00:01:12.549 --> 00:01:15.909
of Mars was like the original title. And then

00:01:15.909 --> 00:01:18.069
when it got compiled together, it got renamed.

00:01:18.510 --> 00:01:20.010
Well, I think I actually went through a couple

00:01:20.010 --> 00:01:22.069
of names. From what I can see, Edgar Burroughs

00:01:22.069 --> 00:01:23.750
was like just throwing different versions at

00:01:23.750 --> 00:01:25.909
his publisher and just been like, come on, which

00:01:25.909 --> 00:01:29.129
one? I don't care. Just pick one. Yeah, that's

00:01:29.129 --> 00:01:32.049
like me when I'm trying to do SEO for this podcast.

00:01:34.129 --> 00:01:37.269
Oh, thanks for that. But yes, this is actually

00:01:37.269 --> 00:01:39.489
a really interesting one. Obviously, Edgar Burroughs.

00:01:39.870 --> 00:01:42.670
for people not aware, most famous character is

00:01:42.670 --> 00:01:45.930
Tarzan. Tarzan of the Apes. He wrote that after

00:01:45.930 --> 00:01:48.689
John Carter. Same year, 1912. I believe it's

00:01:48.689 --> 00:01:50.890
around October time. He kicked out the first

00:01:50.890 --> 00:01:53.709
Tarzan novel. I don't need to explain Tarzan.

00:01:55.870 --> 00:01:59.549
But yeah, he's a famed writer of very pulpy...

00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:03.680
fantasy, science fiction, you know, good for

00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.719
doing like swashbuckling adventurers. And as

00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:11.379
fans of swashbuckling pulpy adventures, especially

00:02:11.379 --> 00:02:14.419
Robert E. Howard, and then later, of course,

00:02:14.419 --> 00:02:17.460
we have Michael Moorcock and Elric of Menibone,

00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:24.539
this really seems to be up our alley. it certainly

00:02:24.539 --> 00:02:26.900
does and what's often talked about when people

00:02:26.900 --> 00:02:28.680
talk about John carter particularly the dialogue

00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:31.400
around the disney movie that came out is a lot

00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:34.280
of people kind of go this is the story that originated

00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:37.840
so many ideas that looking at it now it almost

00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:40.319
seems derivative it's sort of that same i think

00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:42.500
dragon ball z is probably something that's suffered

00:02:42.500 --> 00:02:44.819
all dragon ball it's something that suffered

00:02:44.819 --> 00:02:47.360
the same kind of fate it like pioneered so much

00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:51.349
that so many people copied It almost seems, I

00:02:51.349 --> 00:02:53.469
don't know, a bit more mundane or by the numbers

00:02:53.469 --> 00:02:56.830
by modern standards. Yeah, totally. That's a

00:02:56.830 --> 00:03:00.629
good comparison, I feel. So before we jump into

00:03:00.629 --> 00:03:02.189
Princess of Mars, though, Geordie, has there

00:03:02.189 --> 00:03:04.150
been anything else fantasy or not fantasy related

00:03:04.150 --> 00:03:06.210
that you have been reading, watching, experiencing

00:03:06.210 --> 00:03:08.870
that you just want to share with us? I don't

00:03:08.870 --> 00:03:10.930
think I've been reading anything else. It's been

00:03:10.930 --> 00:03:13.669
a pretty busy period of time for me. I have been

00:03:13.669 --> 00:03:18.520
to see a fair few movies. I really, really like

00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:21.780
seeing Sinners. Duncan, have you seen that? No,

00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:26.259
I have not. I highly recommend it. I really,

00:03:26.259 --> 00:03:30.740
highly recommend it. It's best... The best experience

00:03:30.740 --> 00:03:32.419
you can have is to go into it with absolutely

00:03:32.419 --> 00:03:37.060
no idea what it's about. So, Duncan, dear listeners,

00:03:37.340 --> 00:03:41.039
trust me, it's really good. The acting is stellar.

00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:44.379
The sound design is great. A lot of amazing performances.

00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:49.879
The singing is surprisingly amazing. You really

00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:53.280
don't see that coming. Fantastic. Is it a musical?

00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:56.120
I highly recommend. It's not a musical. It's

00:03:56.120 --> 00:04:00.280
about musicians. Okay. Oh, that sounds interesting.

00:04:00.460 --> 00:04:02.360
Yeah, I will definitely. I don't know why. I

00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:04.020
think when I heard the title, when you just said

00:04:04.020 --> 00:04:06.500
the title, I just assumed, is it some sort of

00:04:06.500 --> 00:04:10.639
like B -list horror? But no, you don't want to

00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:13.219
tell me. Except that it's great. Contractually

00:04:13.219 --> 00:04:16.259
abound to not tell you shit about it. The only

00:04:16.259 --> 00:04:17.759
other thing I really experienced in that time

00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.139
was after I saw that. Actually, I guess I have

00:04:20.139 --> 00:04:22.939
another thing. My girlfriend and I went to see

00:04:22.939 --> 00:04:25.800
Thunderbolts, the newest Marvel movie. I haven't

00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:28.459
seen a Marvel movie in years at this point. Saw

00:04:28.459 --> 00:04:31.279
it. I'm surprised by how much I liked it. I was

00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:34.079
like, hey, this is actually pretty fun. But whilst

00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:35.980
I was in the cinema, I was like, what the hell

00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:39.339
is that? And I saw a poster. to demonstrate that

00:04:39.339 --> 00:04:43.019
they were putting on the filmed version of Bonnie

00:04:43.019 --> 00:04:47.579
and Clyde the Musical, with Jeremy Jordan and,

00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:50.319
oh, I forget her name, something, I'll enter

00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:55.019
her name here, Frances Maylee McCann. uh who

00:04:55.019 --> 00:04:58.720
is a lady who i keep seeing in stuff by accident

00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.819
and i think is really good i first saw her as

00:05:02.819 --> 00:05:06.720
misa misa in the one like two night production

00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:10.939
of death note the musical so weirdly niche stuff

00:05:10.939 --> 00:05:14.579
but i was like oh my god i have to go see this

00:05:14.579 --> 00:05:18.839
i've wanted to see this for years i i it's really

00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:24.060
outside my wheelhouse musicals based on real

00:05:24.060 --> 00:05:27.779
life criminals but if that's your thing i hope

00:05:27.779 --> 00:05:30.740
you enjoy it i don't know why i have that's even

00:05:30.740 --> 00:05:32.860
worth mentioning after that i finished babylon's

00:05:32.860 --> 00:05:35.120
ashes last time i spoke about it i was partly

00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:39.660
through the book so concluding thoughts i think

00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:43.240
it may be my least favorite expanse novel yet

00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:48.680
so nine out of ten would recommend did you not

00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:52.860
like the ending i felt that the ending It was

00:05:52.860 --> 00:05:54.480
a very interesting lean -in. So the ending of

00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:57.339
Babylon on Ashes, it ties up a plot point that

00:05:57.339 --> 00:05:59.519
was in the previous book. And it definitely gave

00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:01.699
me this sensation. Geordi, tell me if you had

00:06:01.699 --> 00:06:04.560
this when you read it. So sixth book in the Expanse

00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:06.500
series, very closely linked to the preceding

00:06:06.500 --> 00:06:10.279
book, Nemesis Games. It felt like the authors,

00:06:10.379 --> 00:06:12.720
when they sat down, the dual authors that do

00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.199
Expanse, they had an idea that was actually meant

00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:18.930
to be like one book. And then they realised,

00:06:19.069 --> 00:06:21.389
oh, this is actually like a book and a half worth

00:06:21.389 --> 00:06:24.269
of narrative. And then they went, well, we might

00:06:24.269 --> 00:06:27.829
as well make it two books. Yeah, yeah, that's

00:06:27.829 --> 00:06:30.350
fair enough. I probably might be close to what

00:06:30.350 --> 00:06:33.410
happened there. I liked Babylon's Ashes, but

00:06:33.410 --> 00:06:36.050
certainly compared to all the other Expanse books,

00:06:36.149 --> 00:06:38.250
and not to say this book is slow or sluggish,

00:06:38.389 --> 00:06:41.990
but it has the most content in there that doesn't

00:06:41.990 --> 00:06:47.199
directly drive the core plot. There are bits

00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:49.100
in here which are world -building, which are

00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:51.839
great character scenes, but I certainly felt

00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:55.339
it had the most strenuous parts, but nicely spaced.

00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:57.339
It wasn't like one character, well, maybe one

00:06:57.339 --> 00:06:58.699
character. There's a character called Prax, who

00:06:58.699 --> 00:07:00.519
comes back from a previous book, who, again,

00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:02.939
I loved his chapters. Didn't need to be there.

00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:06.399
Oh, yeah. Oh, but I like those chapters. I remembered

00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:08.439
them now. Same. I like them. This is the thing.

00:07:08.500 --> 00:07:12.240
I liked... everything i like the slower moments

00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:14.540
when they're all sat in a bar or getting a bowl

00:07:14.540 --> 00:07:16.860
of coffee but i certainly felt like this book

00:07:16.860 --> 00:07:20.500
had more of those scenes than any of the preceding

00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:24.360
books and and that's where i'm like if i had

00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:26.680
to rank it it's my least favorite expanse book

00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:32.639
so far still an amazing book there you go now

00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:34.860
duncan it's good that you've been on a sci -fi

00:07:34.860 --> 00:07:39.680
kick and i've been on a nebulous gap between

00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:44.160
fantasy and science fiction, because we're back

00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.240
in a familiar wheelhouse. We've picked something,

00:07:47.500 --> 00:07:49.839
well, you picked something, that could arguably

00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:53.220
be called science fiction. Duncan, would you

00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:56.420
like to explain to me why is John Carter, and

00:07:56.420 --> 00:07:59.720
more specifically, A Princess of Mars, why is

00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:02.259
this not a sci -fi book? Why is this science

00:08:02.259 --> 00:08:05.879
fantasy? That is a good question. Now, if you

00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:07.740
go back to our previous episodes on like Dune

00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:10.060
or something like Star Wars, I always sort of

00:08:10.060 --> 00:08:13.139
argue that if you can take your sci -fi world

00:08:13.139 --> 00:08:16.379
and roll back the clock and you arrive at something

00:08:16.379 --> 00:08:20.459
fundamentally our reality, then I give that the

00:08:20.459 --> 00:08:22.160
sci -fi. And if you roll it back and it's still

00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.860
not, then I say fantasy. Now, this one's a bit

00:08:25.860 --> 00:08:27.639
more interesting because the only real out there

00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:29.920
bits are the fact there are aliens on Mars, which

00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:32.220
is a perfectly reasonable sci -fi thing to throw

00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:36.120
out there. Yeah. Why do I say fantasy? I say

00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:40.240
fantasy because Princess of Mars takes such a

00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:44.279
loose handle on every sci -fi concept and refuses

00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:47.340
or just has this complete disinterest in explaining

00:08:47.340 --> 00:08:50.840
any of it. Every bit of alien technology might

00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:55.360
as well be magic. Just completely. Yeah, I mean,

00:08:55.419 --> 00:08:58.000
it's hard to say because at a certain point,

00:08:58.059 --> 00:09:01.399
where do you draw the line of, I understand that,

00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:03.990
like, They have flying machines in this, and

00:09:03.990 --> 00:09:06.850
it's explained that there's an eighth color,

00:09:07.049 --> 00:09:09.710
basically, in the spectrum of light, and they

00:09:09.710 --> 00:09:13.590
use that. It comes from the sun, it bounces off

00:09:13.590 --> 00:09:16.429
the surface of the planet, and then their planes,

00:09:16.429 --> 00:09:21.090
like, ride on the reflected rays of this eighth

00:09:21.090 --> 00:09:24.809
light. And on one hand, you're like, is this

00:09:24.809 --> 00:09:29.740
just... It is... The idea that there are more

00:09:29.740 --> 00:09:34.059
spectrums of light than the eye can see, so revolutionary

00:09:34.059 --> 00:09:37.820
and new that this feels like it's just one additional

00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:43.720
step? Or is this, like, really just going way

00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:47.519
beyond into the realm of magic? Because, Duncan,

00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:53.639
and I have to be frank, I'm not completely convinced

00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:58.100
this is fantasy. Okay, there are some major points

00:09:58.100 --> 00:10:00.320
we could look at. Look, how does John Carter

00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:03.440
get to Mars? He does turn into a ghost. That's

00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:06.639
true. And that's the main one. That's the main

00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:10.559
one. It's the sticker. It's a big sticker. It

00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:13.659
is a big sticker. The reason why when I'm going

00:10:13.659 --> 00:10:17.679
through this is that because it's talking so

00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:21.039
much about canals on Mars and cities on Mars

00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:24.740
and pyramids on Mars, this reminds me so much

00:10:24.740 --> 00:10:28.440
of, Middle of the 20th century, pretty standard

00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:32.220
sci -fi adventures like Journey Into Space, a

00:10:32.220 --> 00:10:36.100
BBC radio show I listened to pretty religiously

00:10:36.100 --> 00:10:39.759
when I was a teenager. It's so familiar to me

00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:44.100
where they have the emphasis on telepathy and

00:10:44.100 --> 00:10:47.940
the difference in gravity on the different planets

00:10:47.940 --> 00:10:50.919
and how that would affect people. This obsession

00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:56.919
with canals on Mars. It all felt very familiar

00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:02.519
to ideas I'd seen explored in later, definitively,

00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:05.679
sci -fi properties. Does the main character pick

00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:08.539
up a sword and rescue a princess? I don't think

00:11:08.539 --> 00:11:11.559
that's exclusively not a thing that can happen

00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:15.500
in a sci -fi, but I understand. Yes, that's a

00:11:15.500 --> 00:11:17.840
very fantastic thing. I appreciate this is probably

00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.419
more tenuous. than some of my other claims, but

00:11:21.419 --> 00:11:24.139
certainly the trappings and the pacing and the

00:11:24.139 --> 00:11:28.039
themes of this novel would fit so neatly into

00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:32.059
a fantasy setting. It's just the vibe, and I'm

00:11:32.059 --> 00:11:34.019
prepared to take people's arguments on this,

00:11:34.220 --> 00:11:36.860
but I'm almost going to be a bit blasé and like,

00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:41.080
yeah, but guys, come on. Telepathy is magic.

00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.320
Telepathy is pretty standard sci -fi. But Duncan,

00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:46.580
here's the thing. I don't even disagree with

00:11:46.580 --> 00:11:49.299
you. It's definitely, in my opinion, the most

00:11:49.299 --> 00:11:52.299
tenuous. And that's including Dune, which became

00:11:52.299 --> 00:11:55.919
fantasy because of a loophole. I think this is

00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:57.779
the most tenuous, but you're right. I would still

00:11:57.779 --> 00:12:00.139
call it fantasy. Science fantasy feels like the

00:12:00.139 --> 00:12:02.460
appropriate place to give it this. Because it's

00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:04.360
about a princess, and he does turn into a ghost.

00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.600
That's absolutely awesome. I'm glad we're on

00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:10.840
the same page. But yes, Princess of Mars. You

00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:12.799
talked about the colour, by the way. A lot of

00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:14.200
people, I think, hear that, and often you might

00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:15.899
be thinking, oh, yeah, well, that's like Colour

00:12:15.899 --> 00:12:18.159
Our Space. That's all H .P. Lovecraft. Yeah.

00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:22.340
Bear in mind, 1912, we predate that. This is

00:12:22.340 --> 00:12:25.860
pre -Lovecraft. This is pre -Robert E. Howard.

00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:30.659
Like, Pulps are still a big thing, but this is

00:12:30.659 --> 00:12:34.039
very much the early days before the big hitters

00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:36.799
that come in just at the end of the era. Not

00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:38.179
that they hadn't been around for ages. In fact,

00:12:38.179 --> 00:12:40.120
we're not doing some research for this. I found

00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:43.100
an amazing quote. from Burroughs so apparently

00:12:43.100 --> 00:12:47.419
he said this in 1929 so quite a while later he's

00:12:47.419 --> 00:12:50.379
been smashing out these novels for nearly two

00:12:50.379 --> 00:12:55.740
decades so get a load of this it is amazing this

00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:58.639
is Burroughs talking about why he started becoming

00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:03.179
a pulp fiction writer if people were paid for

00:13:03.179 --> 00:13:05.600
writing rot such as i read in some of these magazines

00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.870
that i could write stories just as rotten As

00:13:09.870 --> 00:13:11.669
a matter of fact, although I had never written

00:13:11.669 --> 00:13:13.970
a story, I knew absolutely that I could write

00:13:13.970 --> 00:13:16.789
stories just as entertaining and probably a whole

00:13:16.789 --> 00:13:20.549
lot more so than any I chance to read in those

00:13:20.549 --> 00:13:26.389
magazines. That's amazing. It's like a dark version

00:13:26.389 --> 00:13:29.029
of Watership Down where he was like, I could

00:13:29.029 --> 00:13:31.090
write a book better than this. And his daughter

00:13:31.090 --> 00:13:33.049
was like, well, I wish you'd go on and just do

00:13:33.049 --> 00:13:35.409
it then instead of just talking about it. There's

00:13:35.409 --> 00:13:37.090
something just inspirational being like, these

00:13:37.090 --> 00:13:40.190
books are awful. And people are paying for them.

00:13:40.549 --> 00:13:44.570
I could do this. Duncan, I genuinely think that

00:13:44.570 --> 00:13:47.809
all the time. It's in the back of my head at

00:13:47.809 --> 00:13:50.409
least like a quarter of the books we do on this

00:13:50.409 --> 00:13:53.309
podcast. Then again, another quarter on the books

00:13:53.309 --> 00:13:55.350
in this podcast make me go, I will never be a

00:13:55.350 --> 00:13:58.350
success. Oh my God, I can't write this well.

00:13:58.429 --> 00:14:03.330
What the fuck? But always remember, quality in

00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:06.129
writing and financial success are, as far as

00:14:06.129 --> 00:14:10.860
I can tell, tenuously related at best. They just

00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:14.259
occasionally accidentally walk in the same direction

00:14:14.259 --> 00:14:17.840
as one another. Speaking of writing quality,

00:14:18.179 --> 00:14:21.419
I'm someone who's enjoyed Edgar Rice Burroughs

00:14:21.419 --> 00:14:24.740
stuff before. Duncan, I told you that I started

00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:28.899
reading Tarzan. And I really liked it. I didn't

00:14:28.899 --> 00:14:31.399
even get up to like the adventure bits. I was

00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:34.039
still with his parents on a boat dealing with

00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:38.360
mutineers getting abandoned in Africa. I didn't

00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:41.080
even meet Tarzan yet. I was having a great time.

00:14:41.379 --> 00:14:44.700
Same, Geordie. I have read the first five Tarzan

00:14:44.700 --> 00:14:49.340
novels, I think. Yeah, up to... Oh, I can't remember.

00:14:49.419 --> 00:14:50.740
I've got to call it Jewels of Galore then. No,

00:14:50.740 --> 00:14:53.960
that's a coner, sorry. So like the Opal City

00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.580
of Opar. Jewels of Opar. Is that the one where

00:14:57.580 --> 00:15:00.539
he journeys into the hollow Earth in order to

00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:04.840
rescue the Kaiser? No, that's Tarzan at the centre

00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:06.860
of the Earth or something ridiculous. Oh, silly

00:15:06.860 --> 00:15:10.500
me. To go alongside Tarzan and the Foreign Legion

00:15:10.500 --> 00:15:14.320
and Tarzan and something like Tarzan and the

00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.559
Ant -Men at one point. Hell yes. It goes cray

00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:22.059
-cray. But you're right, I love Tarzan too. Have

00:15:22.059 --> 00:15:24.159
you any read the first one then? I haven't even

00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:26.320
finished the first one. I've read like the first

00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.279
third of the first one. Finish it. The first

00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:32.320
Tarzan, again, there is some common issues in

00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.220
Tarzan which come over to Princess of Mars, namely

00:15:35.220 --> 00:15:39.340
sensibilities. Racism. But they are such well

00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:42.740
-written adventure stories. And I highly recommend

00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:44.940
them, particularly those sort of first five or

00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:47.059
six I hear very good things about. There's a

00:15:47.059 --> 00:15:49.379
common complaint that as it goes on, it's very

00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:52.340
clear that Burroughs is just writing because

00:15:52.340 --> 00:15:56.259
he... makes money that way no no how could he

00:15:56.259 --> 00:16:01.700
do this but starting out gorgeous wow i feel

00:16:01.700 --> 00:16:02.879
like we've got to talk about princess of mars

00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:06.480
now yeah i really am excited to do this but i'm

00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.259
also a little nervous i should say that i have

00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:14.559
read this book previously and overall i enjoyed

00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:18.419
it But unlike Tarzan, I didn't feel compelled

00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:20.860
to go on and read the series more extensively.

00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.039
That said, I am a big fan of the comic book adaptations.

00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.379
There's been an ongoing comic book since like

00:16:27.379 --> 00:16:30.879
2010. And I really like that. One, because I

00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:32.940
think this story has great visual flair that

00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:36.220
lends itself well to comics. And also, it's nice

00:16:36.220 --> 00:16:38.379
because then once the stories are being tweaked

00:16:38.379 --> 00:16:43.059
for, say, 2010 sensibilities, I found I could

00:16:43.059 --> 00:16:45.980
enjoy them a lot more. Geordi, am I beating about

00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:48.759
the bush enough? I understand what you're putting

00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:54.379
down, Dunk. I gotta say, I did not like this

00:16:54.379 --> 00:16:59.419
book. Yeah. And I feel like... I understand you

00:16:59.419 --> 00:17:01.879
were saying you were feeling nervous. And I feel

00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.079
like I almost have to apologize because everything

00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:07.500
really is set up for me to like it. I like Conan.

00:17:07.779 --> 00:17:13.029
I like silly, pulpy adventures. I mentioned Journey

00:17:13.029 --> 00:17:16.069
Into Space, which is another pulpy radio show

00:17:16.069 --> 00:17:18.910
all about heading to Mars and having adventures

00:17:18.910 --> 00:17:23.289
there. The Pyramids of Mars is a classic Doctor

00:17:23.289 --> 00:17:25.450
Who adventure, which I like the radio version

00:17:25.450 --> 00:17:28.309
of. I haven't seen it, the TV version. And yet,

00:17:28.529 --> 00:17:34.970
I really didn't like this at all. I liked fractions

00:17:34.970 --> 00:17:37.650
of it. There were little glimmers sometimes.

00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:42.119
But we had to delay this episode. And that's

00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:45.460
good, because I finished this, like, half an

00:17:45.460 --> 00:17:48.980
hour ago. And I was really gritting my teeth

00:17:48.980 --> 00:17:54.819
to get through the end. Oh. Oh, that is some

00:17:54.819 --> 00:17:58.519
harsh words. But something I think, you know,

00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:00.700
is great when we differ somewhat. And to be honest

00:18:00.700 --> 00:18:03.230
with you... i get the sense i get the bubbling

00:18:03.230 --> 00:18:05.769
feeling that a lot of the complaints i think

00:18:05.769 --> 00:18:07.490
you might throw up i'm not going to stand here

00:18:07.490 --> 00:18:10.109
and try and defend i'm going to go yeah it's

00:18:10.109 --> 00:18:12.390
going to be a bit like one of those um a bit

00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:13.750
like straight raises cure again you're going

00:18:13.750 --> 00:18:15.309
to throw complaints at me i'm going to go yeah

00:18:15.309 --> 00:18:17.750
but i just kind of like this bit i just kind

00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:20.710
of like it anyway i get that and i definitely

00:18:20.710 --> 00:18:24.490
understand why someone would like this book why

00:18:24.490 --> 00:18:26.890
someone would be taken away by the adventure

00:18:26.890 --> 00:18:31.109
because at the end of the day the thing that

00:18:31.109 --> 00:18:32.930
put me off this book didn't have anything to

00:18:32.930 --> 00:18:36.529
do with it offending my sensibilities i'm actually

00:18:36.529 --> 00:18:39.710
surprised by how considering everything i know

00:18:39.710 --> 00:18:42.390
about the author and about the main character's

00:18:42.390 --> 00:18:45.569
previous occupation i was kind of expecting to

00:18:45.569 --> 00:18:48.349
be more racist and i was like huh this is just

00:18:48.349 --> 00:18:52.289
like you know it's so casual this you'd think

00:18:52.289 --> 00:18:54.450
this was written in the 1930s instead of the

00:18:54.450 --> 00:18:59.950
tens what what a compliment And you're quite

00:18:59.950 --> 00:19:03.430
right. Okay, so let's dive into this. Because

00:19:03.430 --> 00:19:05.730
I think I want to talk about these sorts of issues

00:19:05.730 --> 00:19:10.990
regarding racism, like, up front, and then kind

00:19:10.990 --> 00:19:12.569
of talk more about the story and the adventure

00:19:12.569 --> 00:19:16.670
elements kind of afterwards. So, big thing that

00:19:16.670 --> 00:19:19.210
hangs over this novel, and adaptations and modern

00:19:19.210 --> 00:19:22.910
sensibilities, our main character, he is an American

00:19:22.910 --> 00:19:26.349
Civil War veteran. A veteran, you say? What side

00:19:26.349 --> 00:19:29.059
do you reckon he represents? Uh, well, he's a

00:19:29.059 --> 00:19:31.660
good guy, so presumably he fought on the side

00:19:31.660 --> 00:19:35.339
of the good guys, right? Well, I wanted to make

00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:36.859
a comment or a joke then, but that depends how

00:19:36.859 --> 00:19:39.039
you look at it. It does not. There's a pretty

00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:44.339
definitive answer. I know who the bad guys in

00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:47.680
the Civil War were, and I hope there's not too

00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:49.900
much confusion in the listeners of our podcast.

00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:53.630
If there are... And I have met real life people

00:19:53.630 --> 00:19:56.509
who said to me in person that the Civil War had

00:19:56.509 --> 00:20:00.130
nothing to do with slavery. You're a fucking

00:20:00.130 --> 00:20:04.190
idiot. And don't listen to my podcast, but also

00:20:04.190 --> 00:20:06.789
give us five stars before you don't let the door

00:20:06.789 --> 00:20:10.289
hit you on the way out. Yes. So John Carter is

00:20:10.289 --> 00:20:15.289
a former Confederate soldier. Now, I can only

00:20:15.289 --> 00:20:16.910
speak for how this subject matter is broached

00:20:16.910 --> 00:20:19.470
in Britain. In Britain's education system, it's

00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:21.569
very clearly taught. And also anyone who kind

00:20:21.569 --> 00:20:24.890
of thinks things like slavery are wrong, which

00:20:24.890 --> 00:20:27.970
I do. I do think it's wrong. Thank you, Duncan.

00:20:28.089 --> 00:20:30.609
These are the bad guys. These are definitely

00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:33.369
the bad guys in the conflict. And it's very confusing

00:20:33.369 --> 00:20:36.750
why you would set him up as your hero. What really

00:20:36.750 --> 00:20:38.730
confused me is I did a bit of background. So

00:20:38.730 --> 00:20:43.910
Burr's father was a Civil War veteran. Sure.

00:20:45.210 --> 00:20:47.839
What side do you reckon he fought on? From the

00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:49.799
way you're framing this, I'm assuming that he

00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:52.220
fought for the Union, the North. Yes, he did.

00:20:52.819 --> 00:20:56.819
Yeah. So confusing. Well, it goes to show, I

00:20:56.819 --> 00:20:58.640
mean, for one thing, we should bear in mind is

00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.420
that obviously Burroughs is writing for the sake

00:21:01.420 --> 00:21:03.980
of telling an exciting and compelling story.

00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.160
So it makes some sense that he would lean into

00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.559
this. a historical nostalgia for the American

00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.319
South because it appeals to people. There's a

00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:16.539
very, very deliberate, a deliberate propaganda

00:21:16.539 --> 00:21:22.839
attempt after the war to re -contextualize the

00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:27.039
Southern War as a, we know it's to be anything

00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:29.779
except about the right of slaveholders to keep

00:21:29.779 --> 00:21:32.579
slaves, even though that was, I can't, it has

00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:34.119
to come to this enough. It's just a historical

00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:36.900
to say otherwise. That's why the war happened.

00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:40.740
to make it into a heroic struggle. You get Gone

00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:44.819
with the Wind, you get plenty of these stories

00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:50.380
where former Confederates get to be these plucky

00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:54.059
renegade heroes. This happens a lot in Westerns.

00:21:54.500 --> 00:22:00.519
But over time, what you notice is the former

00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.200
soldiers of the Confederate states, they keep

00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:06.990
showing up. There's a YouTube video out there

00:22:06.990 --> 00:22:10.650
about the weirdly large number of former Confederate

00:22:10.650 --> 00:22:15.369
soldier vampires there are in fiction. What you

00:22:15.369 --> 00:22:19.049
notice is that these are decidedly anti -heroes.

00:22:19.049 --> 00:22:21.130
These are people who have done things wrong in

00:22:21.130 --> 00:22:25.069
the past and maybe want to do better. The main

00:22:25.069 --> 00:22:28.250
character in The Searchers, for example. is a

00:22:28.250 --> 00:22:32.269
former confederate soldier and that's a bad thing

00:22:32.269 --> 00:22:35.130
like the movie is aware that this is a dark mark

00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:38.309
against his soul the rest of the movie is about

00:22:38.309 --> 00:22:42.390
just how bad is this guy ethan that's his name

00:22:42.390 --> 00:22:45.690
i've got it and it's something that kind of adaptations

00:22:45.690 --> 00:22:47.970
have often tried to kind of wrestle with or smooth

00:22:47.970 --> 00:22:51.390
off talking about the comic book version i reread

00:22:51.390 --> 00:22:54.490
the opening of that comic and geordie it is really

00:22:54.490 --> 00:22:59.200
painful how they try and like I don't know, make

00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:02.660
this more palatable. And they genuinely write

00:23:02.660 --> 00:23:05.380
in a scene at the start of the story where John

00:23:05.380 --> 00:23:08.960
Carter gets into a bar fight with ex -Union soldiers.

00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.720
And they point to him and call him out for basically

00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:15.559
fighting for slavery. And John Carter genuinely

00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:17.960
has a line where he's like, well, I don't know

00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.140
nothing about that. But when Virginia calls me

00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:22.619
to fight, I answer the call. And I'm like, oh,

00:23:22.619 --> 00:23:27.809
wow. That's disgusting. And what? What is relevant

00:23:27.809 --> 00:23:31.430
there is the valorization of his Southern identity.

00:23:32.430 --> 00:23:35.390
Now, I'm not going to go out and say that, you

00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:37.650
know, taking pride in being from the American

00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:41.789
South is automatically like a racist dog whistle.

00:23:41.970 --> 00:23:44.210
There are some people who would use it that way.

00:23:44.369 --> 00:23:47.309
But I lived in North Carolina for a time. I met

00:23:47.309 --> 00:23:50.430
a lot of really good North Carolinians who had

00:23:50.430 --> 00:23:53.109
pride in being from North Carolina. I'm not going

00:23:53.109 --> 00:23:55.069
to be someone who paints with a brush to say

00:23:55.069 --> 00:23:58.690
that that's wrong to have pride in being a Southerner.

00:23:59.150 --> 00:24:02.930
However, the way in which this is framed in the

00:24:02.930 --> 00:24:06.690
story is as though being from Virginia is like

00:24:06.690 --> 00:24:11.109
being an Arthurian knight. I think that's one

00:24:11.109 --> 00:24:13.349
comparison to make. I hadn't thought about it

00:24:13.349 --> 00:24:14.690
that way myself, but you're right. It's sort

00:24:14.690 --> 00:24:18.349
of given this sense of, like, lost glory. Exactly.

00:24:19.150 --> 00:24:23.460
There's an important word. in American culture,

00:24:23.660 --> 00:24:27.000
which is Antebellum. I'm explaining this because

00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.500
Americans don't need this explained, but we are

00:24:29.500 --> 00:24:32.859
a mostly British podcast, so I will say so. Antebellum

00:24:32.859 --> 00:24:35.759
means before the war period, and it is a great

00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:38.660
deal of nostalgia in American literature and

00:24:38.660 --> 00:24:41.880
American culture for this period as a halcyon

00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.539
days. Essentially, before things got complicated.

00:24:46.650 --> 00:24:49.089
Because guess what? Things are a lot simpler

00:24:49.089 --> 00:24:52.289
when you get to have an underclass of people

00:24:52.289 --> 00:24:54.329
from a different race who just have to do as

00:24:54.329 --> 00:24:58.750
you're told. I mean, yikes. I mean, obviously,

00:24:58.869 --> 00:25:00.710
it's not like I'm trying to, I'm going to shy

00:25:00.710 --> 00:25:04.789
away from my own national history. Britain, lots

00:25:04.789 --> 00:25:07.690
of bad things there. But I think it's important

00:25:07.690 --> 00:25:11.470
that you don't have to be actively proud of those

00:25:11.470 --> 00:25:16.230
dark bits. I think what comes across more confusing.

00:25:17.029 --> 00:25:19.410
Yeah. And obviously there's loads of comparisons

00:25:19.410 --> 00:25:22.690
to that. I work in a school, and today I was

00:25:22.690 --> 00:25:25.589
doing exam supervision. That's when you have

00:25:25.589 --> 00:25:28.769
students who have two clashing exams, and in

00:25:28.769 --> 00:25:30.950
between those exams they need to be sequestered

00:25:30.950 --> 00:25:33.230
so they don't interact with other students who've

00:25:33.230 --> 00:25:36.750
already completed the exam. And whilst this was

00:25:36.750 --> 00:25:39.130
happening, I was listening to a couple of students

00:25:39.130 --> 00:25:44.230
in the room. have a fiery but completely anemic

00:25:44.230 --> 00:25:49.490
debate about whether England has culture. One

00:25:49.490 --> 00:25:53.390
person was fierily arguing that England has no

00:25:53.390 --> 00:25:56.789
culture, and one person was fierily but very

00:25:56.789 --> 00:26:00.150
incompetently arguing that yes, it does. And

00:26:00.150 --> 00:26:03.329
the struggle they were coming up with was the

00:26:03.329 --> 00:26:05.950
one person who was defending the idea that England

00:26:05.950 --> 00:26:09.490
has culture, which obviously it does, they felt

00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:13.119
too uncomfortable to actually stand behind the

00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:15.920
idea that england has positive traits that you

00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:18.940
can be culturally proud of because for some reason

00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:22.200
that would be like that would be offensive that

00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:27.660
would be wrong that would be jingoistic okay

00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:32.559
um firstly i do have deep nostalgia for being

00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:34.160
able to debate when i was younger and i used

00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:36.819
to think i used to be fiery in debates what happened

00:26:36.819 --> 00:26:39.640
and i was like you got smart enough not to open

00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:42.339
your mouth until you knew what you were saying

00:26:42.339 --> 00:26:44.400
i was like oh yeah that's what helps me back

00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.240
these days but i think it's important to recognize

00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:52.319
that every culture is a bit complicated and everyone

00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:56.289
has mixes of good and bad And it's just OK to

00:26:56.289 --> 00:26:58.289
exemplify these are the traits that I think are

00:26:58.289 --> 00:27:00.630
positive. And because of that, I'm going to leave

00:27:00.630 --> 00:27:02.589
my life in a way to aspire to the positive traits

00:27:02.589 --> 00:27:05.890
and go, yeah, historically, people from the same

00:27:05.890 --> 00:27:08.549
geographical area as me did some bad things.

00:27:10.509 --> 00:27:16.170
They were bad for that. All that is to say. Sorry,

00:27:16.269 --> 00:27:19.269
don't go ahead. And I think what's really kind

00:27:19.269 --> 00:27:20.970
of interesting, as I said, we're getting to the

00:27:20.970 --> 00:27:25.349
30 minute mark in this episode. It's so weird

00:27:25.349 --> 00:27:27.750
because there's so much connotation and so much

00:27:27.750 --> 00:27:29.869
loading that I feel like I need to unpick with

00:27:29.869 --> 00:27:32.210
this. Despite the fact that as soon as John goes

00:27:32.210 --> 00:27:36.430
off to Mars... Not really relevant. Or really

00:27:36.430 --> 00:27:40.109
touched on. Yes, exactly. He's removed from the

00:27:40.109 --> 00:27:43.509
complicatedness of living in a world where he

00:27:43.509 --> 00:27:46.640
has to pick between... you know, sides that the

00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:49.619
reader actually has to relate to. It's significant

00:27:49.619 --> 00:27:53.599
to me that when we introduced to him in the story,

00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:58.000
he's not in the East. He's not in the areas that

00:27:58.000 --> 00:27:59.900
people were fighting over. He's gone out West.

00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.420
That's a classic thing you see Confederate veterans

00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:07.720
doing in fiction about the post -Civil War period.

00:28:08.140 --> 00:28:11.619
And what's his first interactions with? It's...

00:28:11.789 --> 00:28:13.890
But it's interactions with one of a white guy

00:28:13.890 --> 00:28:18.210
and then being attacked by Apaches. He's chased

00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:22.130
off. They are shown in the exact way you would

00:28:22.130 --> 00:28:25.869
expect Native Americans to be depicted in this

00:28:25.869 --> 00:28:30.349
time period. It's extremely dehumanized. He is

00:28:30.349 --> 00:28:34.470
sort of killed, but he's not really. He turns

00:28:34.470 --> 00:28:37.750
into a ghost. He's teleported to Mars. And now

00:28:37.750 --> 00:28:41.410
he gets to be in a new Civil War. which he gets

00:28:41.410 --> 00:28:46.430
to hash out in the fantasy of what if civil war

00:28:46.430 --> 00:28:49.970
could have been could have been ended by one

00:28:49.970 --> 00:28:57.660
guy being really really good at jumping I was

00:28:57.660 --> 00:28:59.039
wondering when you were building to that. I was

00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:00.640
like, being really, really good at fighting,

00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.640
being really, really strong. Yeah, no, you're

00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:04.579
right. Being really, really good at jumping.

00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:08.000
He is at it like Frogger, like the early Superman

00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:14.299
that he is. And I can see why this appealed,

00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:17.160
why this solved. Let's take something really

00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:19.259
complicated. And now let's just have a heroic

00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:23.000
fantasy where we do Civil War Part 2, except

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:27.480
everyone's completely alien colours. Oh yeah,

00:29:27.579 --> 00:29:32.480
the reds and the greens. So it's less complicated.

00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:38.000
Let's give a brief overview. Let's give a brief

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:40.279
overview of what is the rest of the story about.

00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:42.920
We've introduced John Carter. We've introduced

00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:45.319
his entire personality, which is that he's from

00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.720
Virginia and he's really happy about that. And

00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.660
let's actually say, what is it actually about?

00:29:53.099 --> 00:29:56.869
Because... I really can't believe how much is

00:29:56.869 --> 00:30:01.130
crammed into this book. In one way, you could

00:30:01.130 --> 00:30:03.950
say, well, this is great. Classic pulpy stuff.

00:30:04.029 --> 00:30:06.609
It goes from adventure to adventure to adventure.

00:30:07.109 --> 00:30:11.990
That's good, right? To me, it's more like when

00:30:11.990 --> 00:30:14.670
you're not used to a new car and it's kind of

00:30:14.670 --> 00:30:16.710
herky -jerky. It's like, adventure and stop.

00:30:17.170 --> 00:30:22.180
Adventure and stop. Adventure and stop. Well,

00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:23.940
there's some intense noises there. I hope you're

00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:27.700
all right. I'm okay. Yes, it is. A log is crammed

00:30:27.700 --> 00:30:30.759
in. So, to give a very quick overview, when John

00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:33.480
Carter first arrives on Mars, the first interaction

00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.400
he has is with the Thark tribe of Green Martians.

00:30:37.859 --> 00:30:42.079
These guys are big. Thark. Oh, Duncan, what's

00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:49.160
your language? One of many tribes on the planet

00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:52.910
of the Green Martian type. These guys are big.

00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:56.269
They are multi -armed. They've got tusks. They

00:30:56.269 --> 00:31:00.990
are the orcs from Warcraft, except with some

00:31:00.990 --> 00:31:05.069
extra limbs. Just through and through. Orcs from

00:31:05.069 --> 00:31:08.329
Warcraft are tharks with limbs removed. You get

00:31:08.329 --> 00:31:10.990
the influence there. They're all about war. They're

00:31:10.990 --> 00:31:13.609
all about fighting. So John Carter fits right

00:31:13.609 --> 00:31:16.700
in because he's super strong. And they're like,

00:31:16.779 --> 00:31:20.579
come. He meets his local friend, a guy called

00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:26.819
Tars Tarkas, who he sort of has this... I'm starting

00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:29.160
to do a comparison. It's like the Eternal Champion

00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:32.180
from Moorcock. He's his companion. Like, he's

00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:34.660
the buddy. He's going to explain things a bit.

00:31:35.900 --> 00:31:39.690
They're both warriors. They see eye to eye. Yeah,

00:31:39.750 --> 00:31:44.250
this character serves to give us a very roguish

00:31:44.250 --> 00:31:47.950
compatriot. So this is someone who, by like human

00:31:47.950 --> 00:31:51.109
metrics and morality, would be completely abominable.

00:31:51.170 --> 00:31:54.970
But in a fantastical fun space, someone who's

00:31:54.970 --> 00:31:57.730
basically like addicted to war or an honorable

00:31:57.730 --> 00:32:00.690
contract or combat, is someone who's kind of

00:32:00.690 --> 00:32:05.950
fun to have as a sidekick or potential evil villain

00:32:05.950 --> 00:32:09.089
who can be redeemed. And I actually think Tars...

00:32:09.089 --> 00:32:11.430
I've got this right. I've literally just said

00:32:11.430 --> 00:32:16.089
it. Tars Tarkas is fun if he's not particularly

00:32:16.089 --> 00:32:20.829
deep. Like, he's fine for what he does. I wasn't

00:32:20.829 --> 00:32:23.410
aware that he really had a personality. He is

00:32:23.410 --> 00:32:26.569
used, in a way, in the novel. He's a good chess

00:32:26.569 --> 00:32:30.569
piece, right? To keep going the flyover, then

00:32:30.569 --> 00:32:33.480
we basically get all these sort of... mini kind

00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:36.539
of adventures. There's a Colosseum -esque scene.

00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:41.559
So boring. There's a bit of cultural integration.

00:32:41.859 --> 00:32:46.220
And there's basically a bit of like he kills

00:32:46.220 --> 00:32:48.759
a guy and then he takes on everything he had.

00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.480
Element Dune -esque. A little inspiration there.

00:32:53.859 --> 00:32:56.880
Did you, Frank Herbert? Did you like this? That's

00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:01.539
true, yeah. This goes on until he bumps into

00:33:01.539 --> 00:33:04.190
Dejah Thoris. Who has been captured by the greens.

00:33:04.470 --> 00:33:08.509
And she is the princess of Mars. And she is beautiful.

00:33:09.349 --> 00:33:13.190
And. I'm not sure what other traits. Boris gave

00:33:13.190 --> 00:33:16.809
her other than being beautiful. Probably did.

00:33:17.309 --> 00:33:21.410
She's in a lot of comic books. She's been characterised.

00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:23.950
After the fact as like. A very feisty warrior

00:33:23.950 --> 00:33:27.930
swordswoman. In the first book. Not so much.

00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:32.039
That does not come across. When you described

00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:33.779
her in a previous episode, when you were reading

00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:35.519
the comic book, to say she's like a sword and

00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:38.839
sorcery kind of character, I really expected

00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:41.660
her to be more than just this incredibly meek

00:33:41.660 --> 00:33:43.759
little kitten, which is what she is in this book.

00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:49.400
Dejah Forrest, again, Sans personality. She is

00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:54.819
the princess in the tower. She is... I don't

00:33:54.819 --> 00:33:56.740
need to explain a single thing about her character.

00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:00.019
She's... duty bound and she's like oh no i must

00:34:00.019 --> 00:34:03.160
do this for my people uh i cannot be with you

00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:05.619
john carter despite how handsome and lovely you

00:34:05.619 --> 00:34:08.719
are because my people need me to blah blah blah

00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:12.000
blah blah writing female characters is not this

00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.780
dude's strong point writing male characters isn't

00:34:14.780 --> 00:34:18.519
really a strong point actually either but going

00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:21.559
on from this point we essentially get a rescue

00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:24.619
attempt to free deja thoris and return her to

00:34:24.619 --> 00:34:28.750
her people and then some weird politicking comes

00:34:28.750 --> 00:34:31.869
up there's this other city state of like red

00:34:31.869 --> 00:34:36.329
martians called zodanga who are enemies of yeah

00:34:36.329 --> 00:34:39.309
of the princess of mars city state which is helium

00:34:39.309 --> 00:34:45.039
they fight back and forth a bit John Carter wins.

00:34:45.219 --> 00:34:49.559
He beats Onganga. Then, literally, we speed through.

00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:51.380
I'm sorry, it might sound like I'm going fast.

00:34:51.579 --> 00:34:53.019
This is the novel. I feel like I've just got

00:34:53.019 --> 00:34:55.460
to get it all out. Then he beats those people.

00:34:55.659 --> 00:34:57.320
And the Judge of Thought is just like, I can

00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:00.699
be with you here. Let us be together as sexy

00:35:00.699 --> 00:35:06.360
friends. Then she lays an egg for him. And then...

00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:10.900
Yeah. There's a... And then... Disaster. So Mars

00:35:10.900 --> 00:35:13.760
is a dying world and they have these like...

00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:17.900
Duncan? Yes? You missed out on a very important

00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:20.719
detail. You talked about how it really whizzes

00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:28.719
by fast because ten years pass. Honestly... In

00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:32.679
a chapter. Yep. He has ten years of fun times

00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:36.260
together. I assumed, Duncan, when I read this

00:35:36.260 --> 00:35:39.170
bit, I was like, okay, okay, I get it. This is

00:35:39.170 --> 00:35:41.769
supposed to be like an open and shut story. It

00:35:41.769 --> 00:35:45.449
begins, it ends, that's it. Then the character

00:35:45.449 --> 00:35:48.590
is very popular, and then he would use this 10

00:35:48.590 --> 00:35:52.130
-year period to have more adventures on Mars.

00:35:52.409 --> 00:35:56.170
Okay, so we know that John Carter arrives, he

00:35:56.170 --> 00:35:59.150
has adventures, he marries DJ Forrest, and then

00:35:59.150 --> 00:36:01.230
they have 10 years of adventures together, and

00:36:01.230 --> 00:36:07.619
then the planet dies, and he goes home. Weirdly

00:36:07.619 --> 00:36:11.179
not the case. Because what I assume is those

00:36:11.179 --> 00:36:14.380
10 years would be used to be like, ah, the further

00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:16.860
adventures of John Carter. What was he up to

00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:20.460
in the meantime? No, not the thing. Some comic

00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:22.460
books do do that. There's quite a few that are

00:36:22.460 --> 00:36:25.960
set in that mid -call era. But most of the stories

00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:28.760
push forward because John Carter's son isn't

00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:31.159
a character in this first book, but he is in

00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:35.099
later stories. So... Oh, yeah, there are a few

00:36:35.099 --> 00:36:37.119
comics that also fill in the gap for, again,

00:36:37.340 --> 00:36:41.480
100 years later. Do you know what? I've only

00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:43.059
just said that for the first time. The comic

00:36:43.059 --> 00:36:45.579
book series that I love so much was written 100

00:36:45.579 --> 00:36:49.460
years after the novel. That's crazy time. Which

00:36:49.460 --> 00:36:51.420
makes sense because that's when it's entered

00:36:51.420 --> 00:36:55.019
the public domain, right? That does, mate. I

00:36:55.019 --> 00:36:56.820
think we'd have done it a little bit earlier,

00:36:56.920 --> 00:37:00.179
but not by much, maybe 15 years earlier. I think

00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:03.579
there was 85 years on these. It's a bit weird.

00:37:04.010 --> 00:37:05.789
Fingers crossed, guys, by the way. Tracking what

00:37:05.789 --> 00:37:08.309
goes into the public domain is so much fun. We're

00:37:08.309 --> 00:37:09.849
nearly there with Conan. We're nearly there.

00:37:11.389 --> 00:37:13.570
Well, it's already public domain in Europe. Oh,

00:37:13.590 --> 00:37:18.349
yeah. Because we have sensible laws. I was meant

00:37:18.349 --> 00:37:21.570
to mention this at the very beginning of the

00:37:21.570 --> 00:37:23.630
episode, by the way. I did read something else

00:37:23.630 --> 00:37:25.730
which wasn't mentioned. Do you know what? I'm

00:37:25.730 --> 00:37:30.230
just going to drop it in here. Oh? I read a European...

00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:34.579
out of copyright comic book starring the characters

00:37:34.579 --> 00:37:37.800
bailet and valeria from the conan universe as

00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:41.639
like a um a dual team whatever you call that

00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:49.500
okay duo dynamic duo and it was amazingly overwritten

00:37:49.500 --> 00:37:52.920
and underwritten and appallingly bad and fabulously

00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:57.320
stupid just incredible only ran for like five

00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:00.230
issues It is not getting a follow -up despite

00:38:00.230 --> 00:38:03.250
ending on a cliffhanger. It has Baylet getting

00:38:03.250 --> 00:38:06.030
resurrected from when she dies at the end of

00:38:06.030 --> 00:38:08.989
the Conan stories. Oh, no. Then, instead of,

00:38:09.030 --> 00:38:11.789
like, any thoughts about Conan, she basically

00:38:11.789 --> 00:38:13.690
is angry that she's been brought back from the

00:38:13.690 --> 00:38:16.050
dead and is trying to find the sorcerer or whatever

00:38:16.050 --> 00:38:19.829
that did it. And in the first story, she literally

00:38:19.829 --> 00:38:21.969
just walks into a tavern and is like, right,

00:38:22.090 --> 00:38:25.530
I want to have sex with the most vigorous man

00:38:25.530 --> 00:38:29.949
here. who's up for it it is atrocious followed

00:38:29.949 --> 00:38:34.110
by just it is so over sexualized at the same

00:38:34.110 --> 00:38:37.869
time not sexy at all and it's like the plot has

00:38:37.869 --> 00:38:41.989
no thought into it yet every page is crammed

00:38:41.989 --> 00:38:45.510
full of speech bubbles i'm like how have you

00:38:45.510 --> 00:38:48.929
got so much dialogue into this sword and sorcery

00:38:48.929 --> 00:38:53.590
tale that achieves next to nothing duncan can

00:38:53.590 --> 00:38:58.800
i make a humble request of you Go ahead. Please

00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:02.260
do not pick this comic book series for a future

00:39:02.260 --> 00:39:04.800
episode, no matter how much I annoy you at any

00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.519
point. Don't worry, Geordie. I've got way more

00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.420
painful stuff stored in the backlog for that.

00:39:09.940 --> 00:39:13.440
But yes, back to Princess of Mars. And yes, and

00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:16.559
then the book ends. The atmospheric factories

00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:20.400
that produce air for Mars. Mars is a dying planet,

00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:22.420
remember. The oceans have dried up. The canals

00:39:22.420 --> 00:39:25.860
are starting to go dry. Air is running out. They

00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:29.940
start to malfunction and John Carter, just about,

00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:32.480
everyone's getting dizzy, he's running to the

00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:34.980
factory, he uses his weird psychic ability he

00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:37.400
got taught earlier, he opens the doors, he's

00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:39.340
just got to get inside and like pull the lever

00:39:39.340 --> 00:39:42.360
to save the planet. But then he falls unconscious

00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:46.019
in the doorway. He never makes it. And then he

00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:49.679
opens his eyes, back in a cave on Earth, staring

00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:55.590
up at a red planet. The end? It would be so emotionally

00:39:55.590 --> 00:39:57.889
moving if I cared about any of these characters.

00:39:58.590 --> 00:40:01.070
I say the end. There is actually a framing narrative

00:40:01.070 --> 00:40:04.389
in this book of, I think it's meant to be Burroughs

00:40:04.389 --> 00:40:07.510
talking about his fictional Uncle Jack, who's

00:40:07.510 --> 00:40:11.659
meant to be John Carter. Yes! I really like that.

00:40:11.699 --> 00:40:16.360
Yes, it is like he is telling us the story from

00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:19.920
the diary, like the personal autobiography that

00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:23.559
his uncle left behind. It's very, it's very,

00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:26.820
it's bold. I like that move. I think it's really

00:40:26.820 --> 00:40:28.960
interesting. I think he does something kind of

00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:32.380
similar in Tarzan, doesn't he? The diary entries.

00:40:32.820 --> 00:40:34.360
That's definitely something that comes up in

00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:38.349
Tarzan a lot. is we're hearing about what happened

00:40:38.349 --> 00:40:41.010
in the past to a character i don't think he placed

00:40:41.010 --> 00:40:44.570
himself as right yes i remember i remember because

00:40:44.570 --> 00:40:47.210
tarzan has a famous opening line that's like

00:40:47.210 --> 00:40:52.409
uh i couldn't believe how incredible this story

00:40:52.409 --> 00:40:56.050
is if i had not heard it from like a less i wouldn't

00:40:56.050 --> 00:40:57.690
have believed how crazy the story is if i heard

00:40:57.690 --> 00:40:59.789
it from like a less reliable source something

00:40:59.789 --> 00:41:03.110
like that it's like the author the writer of

00:41:03.110 --> 00:41:07.130
Tarzan is interviewing someone who met Tarzan

00:41:07.130 --> 00:41:10.150
at a certain point and is relaying his adventures

00:41:10.150 --> 00:41:13.769
through like a series of like you know like a

00:41:13.769 --> 00:41:17.050
game of telephone yes and just like telephone

00:41:17.050 --> 00:41:19.429
they just get exaggerated every single time they

00:41:19.429 --> 00:41:22.150
get retold what I will say is I do like this

00:41:22.150 --> 00:41:24.769
in this framing device and I particularly feel

00:41:24.769 --> 00:41:26.630
like if you read this in the context of like

00:41:26.630 --> 00:41:29.710
a pulp magazine this would have worked this yummed

00:41:29.710 --> 00:41:32.579
this up really fun and we basically find out

00:41:32.579 --> 00:41:34.739
from this narrative that john carter has built

00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:37.739
himself like a custom tomb that he's going to

00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:40.119
go and lie in and like this is how he hopes to

00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:43.780
ghost himself back to mars again not explain

00:41:43.780 --> 00:41:46.179
the details in fact if you watch the disney movie

00:41:46.179 --> 00:41:48.659
they basically give him like a magical amulet

00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:51.119
that he finds in the cave and that's just how

00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:56.380
it happened this is just out of nowhere so that's

00:41:56.380 --> 00:41:58.400
the plot might as well just rub a genie's lamp

00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.380
you know Might as well. Or just a literal portal.

00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:06.079
Or anything, actually. Other than just falling

00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:08.199
unconscious and having an out -of -body experience.

00:42:08.500 --> 00:42:10.519
It almost makes you think, was this all just

00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:13.480
a hallucination of John's? Did he just hit his

00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:16.119
head on a rock and go, I imagined it was the

00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:19.460
Civil War, but I was a hero and this really hot

00:42:19.460 --> 00:42:22.699
woman just wanted to be with me. It's like, sure

00:42:22.699 --> 00:42:26.860
thing, John. Calm down. Duncan. Can I ask you,

00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:29.400
what about this story do you find compelling

00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:32.739
and exciting, such that you like it? Because

00:42:32.739 --> 00:42:34.659
we've ragged on it a lot, but I really want to

00:42:34.659 --> 00:42:40.679
hear what you like. Okay, I like the man that

00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:43.340
can jump a tall building in a single bound, that

00:42:43.340 --> 00:42:46.019
has super strength, that has laser pistols and

00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:48.880
a sword. And it's hard to pin down individual

00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:52.739
scenes. I do think the final fighter, like Zongdanga,

00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:57.000
is really fun. I like just on the weird and wonderful

00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:58.960
elements of the world. Like, I know I harped

00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:01.320
on sort of negatively about the flying machines,

00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:04.019
but, you know, they're still cool. I like this

00:43:04.019 --> 00:43:05.460
idea of these things with, like, these great

00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:08.139
sails that, like, spread out, but, like, facing

00:43:08.139 --> 00:43:12.219
the ground to catch the rays as uplift. I like

00:43:12.219 --> 00:43:13.880
hearing about some of these Martian cultures.

00:43:14.059 --> 00:43:16.739
I enjoy the fact that the greens, like, lay all

00:43:16.739 --> 00:43:19.920
their eggs in, like, a hatchery, like, bury them

00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.059
in the ground, and then they come and, like,

00:43:22.059 --> 00:43:25.969
dig them up later. I enjoyed that there were

00:43:25.969 --> 00:43:27.769
a few scenes that I enjoyed that actually I thought

00:43:27.769 --> 00:43:30.769
did have a little bit more, I don't know what

00:43:30.769 --> 00:43:33.690
to put the phrase, tender loving care. I enjoyed

00:43:33.690 --> 00:43:37.489
the scenes with the character of Sola, who's

00:43:37.489 --> 00:43:40.610
the daughter of Tars Tarkas. She teaches him

00:43:40.610 --> 00:43:43.510
the language of Barsoom. Oh, Mars is called Barsoom

00:43:43.510 --> 00:43:49.030
on their planet. Isn't it called Barsoom? Yes,

00:43:49.030 --> 00:43:51.590
you're right, it is Barsoom. It's Barsoomium

00:43:51.590 --> 00:43:55.559
is the language. um there was some cool you know

00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:57.159
i liked a little bit of intrigue about her history

00:43:57.159 --> 00:44:02.679
of her parents i that was okay that felt like

00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:05.280
a sort of right out of like a dramatic victorian

00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:07.940
story where like it's just like and now time

00:44:07.940 --> 00:44:11.099
for a little a little mini story within a story

00:44:11.099 --> 00:44:14.139
i always felt that have you ever read uh northanger

00:44:14.139 --> 00:44:18.639
abbey by jane austen i have not there's just

00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:21.260
a mini bit in that where someone's like And they're

00:44:21.260 --> 00:44:22.880
in a carriage and someone's like, I'm now going

00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.320
to tell you a ghost story. And then you literally

00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:27.360
get a chapter that's basically just a mini ghost

00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:30.000
story. Like, she wrote a short story. Just because

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.420
Jane Austen had an idea. Yeah, I know. It's like,

00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:35.699
I need to just cram this in somewhere. Best chapter

00:44:35.699 --> 00:44:38.539
in the book. But anyway. We can do that for Halloween.

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:42.599
Oh, I love that. Jane Austen for Halloween. What

00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:47.980
an off -focus thing to be. So I enjoy... Sorry,

00:44:48.019 --> 00:44:50.000
so I enjoy that and I generally like a bit of

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.820
the world and culture building. We get reference

00:44:52.820 --> 00:44:57.900
to Issus and the river Iss in this world. Very

00:44:57.900 --> 00:45:00.900
light, but I like seeing how this fits together

00:45:00.900 --> 00:45:02.920
and I do genuinely like the general atmosphere

00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:05.699
of Mars as this dying planet that all these great

00:45:05.699 --> 00:45:08.500
civilizations are coming to an end and there's

00:45:08.500 --> 00:45:11.380
nothing they can really do to stop it. And even

00:45:11.380 --> 00:45:13.599
in its kind of death throes, they're all still

00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.579
just fighting each other. So I like the vibe.

00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:19.840
But I will be honest with you, Geordi, I think

00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:23.280
I wouldn't have liked this as much if I wasn't

00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:27.519
already a fan through comic books. So I didn't

00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:29.880
have as clear visuals. And maybe because I know

00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:32.559
a little bit more about the world building outside

00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:35.559
this first novel, then I could kind of like fill

00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:38.179
in the gaps slightly. But those are the things

00:45:38.179 --> 00:45:41.579
I like. I do think this is an interesting world

00:45:41.579 --> 00:45:45.920
to explore. And I like a Superman. Talking of

00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:48.639
Superman, John Carter's Superman before Superman.

00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:53.440
Sure, yeah, that's true. You know, he is this

00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:57.579
larger -than -life, honourable, impossibly strong

00:45:57.579 --> 00:46:02.639
character with a very rigid moral code. He rescues

00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:05.219
damsels and distresses. That's true. That's a

00:46:05.219 --> 00:46:07.760
lot of Superman energy all in one place. He literally

00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:11.179
goes to a planet that has weaker gravity than

00:46:11.179 --> 00:46:13.860
the one he's meant for, so gets super jump and

00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:16.440
super strength. Like, that is Superman. That's

00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:18.940
true. That's true. That's the exact concept.

00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:21.880
And this was written... What do you think? What's

00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:29.119
that? Superman was 1930? 1935? Ish? Early 1930s,

00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:31.519
I think. So, we're literally... This is 18 years

00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:34.579
before Superman. So, the types of people who

00:46:34.579 --> 00:46:38.039
wrote Superman would have grown up on John Carter.

00:46:39.619 --> 00:46:41.639
That's true. Yeah, that's worth considering.

00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:45.199
Duncan, what I feel like I need to say now is

00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:49.460
you mentioned world building and stuff. And I

00:46:49.460 --> 00:46:52.780
think that's probably the thing I dislike the

00:46:52.780 --> 00:46:55.579
most about this story. Because I really didn't

00:46:55.579 --> 00:46:59.179
like the way information was relayed to us. I

00:46:59.179 --> 00:47:02.099
found this book extremely tiresome because it

00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:04.980
felt like... Anytime there was going to be an

00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:08.800
adventure, it was interrupted by a prelude of

00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:12.780
an extremely vivid and lengthy description of

00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:16.340
how do the planes fly? How do the guns work?

00:47:16.699 --> 00:47:20.179
How does their language work? How do the telepathy

00:47:20.179 --> 00:47:24.199
interact with their spoken language? How are

00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:28.980
babies made? Stuff like that. And what I think

00:47:28.980 --> 00:47:31.599
really separates this, because we're talking,

00:47:31.739 --> 00:47:35.420
we're not even talking, pre -Tolkien, where it

00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:39.840
completely reinvents the idea of having extremely

00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:44.360
vivid and deep world histories. We're talking

00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:48.599
pre -Howard. And the best thing, the best thing

00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:50.840
about world building in something like Robert

00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:55.280
E. Howard is he will say anything. He'll just

00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:58.920
say he was a Bosonian archer. He'll just say

00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:03.119
he was a giant from Hyperborea. And then he shuts

00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:07.239
up. He doesn't say a single damn thing. And he

00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:11.659
lets you decide how legitimately is this guy

00:48:11.659 --> 00:48:15.119
a giant from Hybora? Is he like six foot two

00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:18.699
and he's a giant? Is he six foot eleven and a

00:48:18.699 --> 00:48:22.880
giant? Is he 13 feet tall? You get to make that

00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:25.239
decision. You get to make it as exciting as you

00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:28.480
want to. It sort of gets across the point of

00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:31.690
how much of a giant is he? Enough of a giant

00:48:31.690 --> 00:48:33.550
that our main character looks at him and goes,

00:48:33.570 --> 00:48:37.730
wow, he's a giant. That's all that matters. Exactly.

00:48:37.949 --> 00:48:41.150
That's what matters. We get to have a sense that

00:48:41.150 --> 00:48:44.909
there's this big, wide, magical world and we

00:48:44.909 --> 00:48:49.429
decide how magical is it. Even something like

00:48:49.429 --> 00:48:53.070
the Tower of the Elephant, which the big culmination

00:48:53.070 --> 00:48:56.489
of the story is a lecture on personal history

00:48:56.489 --> 00:49:01.579
by an alien. Even that is full of great mysteries

00:49:01.579 --> 00:49:05.760
because it's delivered to us in a monologue.

00:49:05.780 --> 00:49:09.400
It's not delivered to us by narration where it's

00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:12.860
simply someone like taking almost research notes

00:49:12.860 --> 00:49:16.400
on the natural history of a planet. It's someone

00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:19.699
saying, I'm going to tell you all about my personal

00:49:19.699 --> 00:49:23.139
suffering. And allow you to make conjecture about

00:49:23.139 --> 00:49:27.519
how strange a being I am. Where am I from? What

00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:30.880
are my people like? Am I magic or simply a being

00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:35.619
of high technology? And I feel quite legitimately

00:49:35.619 --> 00:49:37.599
a bit of a missed opportunity there. Particularly

00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.239
when Jon is a fish out of water. And we have

00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:42.400
characters like Dejah Thoris, Tars Harkus and

00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:46.500
Sola. Who are all in positions to sort of give...

00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:49.900
this information to John I wish that had been

00:49:49.900 --> 00:49:51.460
used more because then you can just throw in

00:49:51.460 --> 00:49:53.219
little bits of characterization like if Tars

00:49:53.219 --> 00:49:54.960
Tarkas is going to sit down and talk to John

00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:57.599
about the guns then he can just throw in like

00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.860
you know this it's like this and I when I first

00:50:00.860 --> 00:50:03.900
went out hunting with my father you can kind

00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:09.179
of weave it in a way that feels less dumpy Yeah,

00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:13.800
or have John be given a gun in a firefight, and

00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:16.000
then he has to figure out how to use the gun

00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:18.519
in the middle of the firefight. Like, maybe he

00:50:18.519 --> 00:50:21.900
fires one shot, goes to reload, and then, like,

00:50:21.900 --> 00:50:24.280
accidentally almost blows his head off because

00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:26.659
he didn't realise that it had not merely, like,

00:50:26.699 --> 00:50:30.099
a second round in the chamber, but another 199

00:50:30.099 --> 00:50:33.480
rounds in the chamber. I can see how that would

00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:36.719
add a lot of fun. Do you know, Geordi, can I

00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:38.650
also just say, you mentioned... Tower of the

00:50:38.650 --> 00:50:40.750
Elephant. Have I told you that I've read the

00:50:40.750 --> 00:50:43.670
newest Conan comic? Not the newest, newest. From

00:50:43.670 --> 00:50:47.590
Titan. The Conan and Age Unconquered. I... Duncan,

00:50:47.730 --> 00:50:49.650
to be quite honest, I struggle to keep up sometimes.

00:50:50.550 --> 00:50:53.269
Fair enough. Don't worry about it. Moving back.

00:50:54.889 --> 00:50:58.269
No, no, no. Tell me. Tell me. Well, it's a story.

00:50:58.289 --> 00:51:01.130
It's a Conan story. As they all are that I read.

00:51:01.289 --> 00:51:03.889
Where Conan goes back in time to visit King Cole.

00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:07.659
When we do this time jump, this is like the third

00:51:07.659 --> 00:51:09.780
time it's ever happened in comics. Cole, Shadow

00:51:09.780 --> 00:51:12.599
Kingdom, listen to the episode, it's great. He

00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:16.239
runs into the elephant guy, but like 100 ,000

00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:22.079
years earlier? In the Therian age. And the elephant

00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:26.860
guy's just like, what happened to you? I remember

00:51:26.860 --> 00:51:29.099
you from when we first met. And Conan's like,

00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:31.780
but that shouldn't work because you were previously

00:51:31.780 --> 00:51:35.409
living life. And he's like, ah. Timey -wimey,

00:51:35.409 --> 00:51:38.670
doesn't matter to me. Yes, that sounds good.

00:51:38.829 --> 00:51:41.210
Okay, I was against this at first, but that sounds

00:51:41.210 --> 00:51:45.409
pretty good. I hope you enjoy the comic. Okay,

00:51:45.489 --> 00:51:48.550
so I've explained why I found a lot of aspects

00:51:48.550 --> 00:51:51.449
of this book quite dry. At the end of the day,

00:51:51.550 --> 00:51:54.289
you made a very good point at the start. This

00:51:54.289 --> 00:51:57.389
book is so influential and so early in the world

00:51:57.389 --> 00:51:59.329
of fantasy that a lot of the stuff in it feels

00:51:59.329 --> 00:52:02.610
quite rote. I'm not compelled by the relationship

00:52:02.610 --> 00:52:07.489
between... John Carter and J .J. Thoris because

00:52:07.489 --> 00:52:12.849
I've seen much better versions of much more interesting,

00:52:12.929 --> 00:52:15.809
much feistier princesses meet up with much more

00:52:15.809 --> 00:52:19.610
interesting, less one -note rogue anti -heroes.

00:52:19.750 --> 00:52:23.289
I'm not as impressed by the... The idea is being

00:52:23.289 --> 00:52:26.550
put forward by the sci -fi aspects of the world

00:52:26.550 --> 00:52:30.789
because I've seen those ideas explored and extrapolated

00:52:30.789 --> 00:52:34.469
upon later. I'm not convinced or persuaded by

00:52:34.469 --> 00:52:38.750
the racial politics of the book because it exists

00:52:38.750 --> 00:52:42.809
in a extremely alien world to me of being from

00:52:42.809 --> 00:52:45.949
the early 20th century where it's just fine to

00:52:45.949 --> 00:52:49.349
have a race of red people and a race of... green

00:52:49.349 --> 00:52:52.289
people, and oh, why can't they get along if only

00:52:52.289 --> 00:52:54.769
there was a man who jumps good to unite them?

00:52:55.909 --> 00:52:57.789
Just want to throw out there. You know, I said

00:52:57.789 --> 00:53:00.010
all that, but actually I just realised that the

00:53:00.010 --> 00:53:03.570
racial politics of that are at least as up -to

00:53:03.570 --> 00:53:08.150
-date and, you know, cogent as children of Anakin

00:53:08.150 --> 00:53:13.309
anguish. Wow. I mean, quite possibly. At least

00:53:13.309 --> 00:53:15.510
I do actually have a bit of respect for Burroughs.

00:53:16.050 --> 00:53:19.659
If nothing does this well, But to approach the

00:53:19.659 --> 00:53:21.900
matter of race and go, right, I'm not going to

00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:24.239
write full on about this matter, but let's just

00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:28.099
recast it. Let's take a real world issue, put

00:53:28.099 --> 00:53:30.800
it in a sci -fi setting so you can explore it

00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:37.760
with a bit more of a blunted edge. Conceptually...

00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:40.539
Sure, you're talking about Star Trek. Yeah, exactly.

00:53:40.619 --> 00:53:43.920
It's the same ideas of transposing our current

00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:47.719
or social issues to a sci -fi setting. to help

00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:50.380
with the exploration and often ease the exploration.

00:53:52.300 --> 00:53:54.900
Not that Brothers does it amazingly, but it's

00:53:54.900 --> 00:53:56.900
the same seed. You're like, yes, there's something

00:53:56.900 --> 00:54:01.679
here that will one day blossom. Yes, exactly.

00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:04.780
So you're talking about the same ideas that are

00:54:04.780 --> 00:54:07.340
going to be explored in Star Trek in the 1960s

00:54:07.340 --> 00:54:10.639
of doing, oh, this is the planet of the black

00:54:10.639 --> 00:54:13.079
and white people as opposed to the white and

00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:20.400
black people. and to lampoon the idea of racism.

00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:24.920
But in this book, the problem is that it's nowhere

00:54:24.920 --> 00:54:28.840
near as socially competent as that, because the

00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:31.320
big thing that happens is that the Green Martians

00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:35.960
have no ideas of love, trust, and friendship.

00:54:36.619 --> 00:54:40.099
They exist only to fight and kill. Whereas the

00:54:40.099 --> 00:54:42.659
Red Martians are more enlightened. And they do

00:54:42.659 --> 00:54:45.440
believe in love and friendship. And what would

00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:47.239
you guess? Even though they're both Martians.

00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:51.119
Only the Red Martians. Which includes Dejah Thoris

00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:53.000
by the way. I don't think we made that clear

00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:57.300
earlier. They're referred to as humans. So we

00:54:57.300 --> 00:54:59.539
have humans and we have non -humans. And the

00:54:59.539 --> 00:55:03.880
non -humans act as savage. If somewhat noble.

00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:09.179
With a sense of primeval honour. And what would

00:55:09.179 --> 00:55:13.539
you guess? They start to see things the same

00:55:13.539 --> 00:55:16.340
way as John Carter, who has more in common with

00:55:16.340 --> 00:55:18.539
the Red Martians, because what this is actually

00:55:18.539 --> 00:55:22.739
about is not about a divided people who need

00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:26.019
to come to peace. It's about a savage race of

00:55:26.019 --> 00:55:29.440
people who need to be tamed with the ideas of

00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:32.380
the other sect. This is about taming the West.

00:55:33.079 --> 00:55:35.400
This is about Native Americans. This is about...

00:55:35.960 --> 00:55:38.840
This is about indoctrinating Indian children

00:55:38.840 --> 00:55:43.440
into being good, moral, white -adjacent Americans.

00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:47.500
Now, Geordie, I'm not going to stand and disagree

00:55:47.500 --> 00:55:51.579
with you, but I hadn't picked up on any of that

00:55:51.579 --> 00:55:54.860
because I'm not as well -educated, and now I'm

00:55:54.860 --> 00:55:56.539
sitting here going, oh dear God, Duncan, what

00:55:56.539 --> 00:56:02.360
have you enjoyed? Why didn't you see this? Now,

00:56:02.360 --> 00:56:06.199
here's the thing, Duncan. Here's another way

00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:11.099
I could put this. I mentioned Star Trek. What

00:56:11.099 --> 00:56:15.340
if the Green Martians aren't Indian Americans?

00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:17.400
What if they aren't Native Americans? What if

00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:19.800
they aren't the Apache who are trying to kill

00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:23.699
John Connor at the start of a story? What if

00:56:23.699 --> 00:56:28.000
instead they're Klingon? Because Klingon are

00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:30.079
a warrior country who have a long sense of honour.

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:33.920
And Klingon aren't really supposed to stand in

00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:37.139
for a particular race, at least not by the 80s

00:56:37.139 --> 00:56:42.360
and 90s. They're supposed to be a distinct people

00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:45.880
with their own culture. And the interesting thing

00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:48.480
about that is that when you get to something

00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:53.059
like Deep Space Nine, you just like seeing the

00:56:53.059 --> 00:56:57.280
Klingons doing their own cultural stuff. It respects

00:56:57.280 --> 00:57:00.159
the fact that they're different. And it doesn't

00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:05.039
judge them for their backwards ideas where violence

00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:07.539
rules. It says this is a different way of doing

00:57:07.539 --> 00:57:10.039
things. They have their own sense of right and

00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:12.940
wrong. They aren't necessarily evil because of

00:57:12.940 --> 00:57:18.039
it. Who are we to judge them? Perhaps in the

00:57:18.039 --> 00:57:21.019
future books of John Carter of Mars, it takes

00:57:21.019 --> 00:57:24.360
a more tolerant, enlightened and accepting look

00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:27.820
at the green Martians. I think that would be

00:57:27.820 --> 00:57:32.260
a book I would enjoy more because it is fun to

00:57:32.260 --> 00:57:36.360
follow characters like honourable warriors. There's

00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:40.500
a reason why The Noble Savage keeps showing up

00:57:40.500 --> 00:57:43.380
in fiction because there's a strong appeal to

00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:47.820
it. It speaks to something inside us. If only

00:57:47.820 --> 00:57:51.480
it wasn't so racist, it would be good, wholesome

00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:58.860
fun. Um, yes. that is that is a really good kind

00:57:58.860 --> 00:58:01.239
of point for and i'm really glad that you did

00:58:01.239 --> 00:58:03.480
do that second comparison because one it allows

00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:05.639
me to keep enjoying what i enjoy without feeling

00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:09.019
too bad and i really did like how you talk about

00:58:09.019 --> 00:58:11.260
you know this could be something to explore later

00:58:11.260 --> 00:58:16.480
now just so you're aware um that that doesn't

00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:20.000
happen balls instead what burrows does is um

00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:23.039
he uh he i'm gonna call i'm gonna say jump the

00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:24.800
shark although it's about 50 years too early

00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:27.579
for that comparison when he brings in yellow

00:58:27.579 --> 00:58:30.340
martians oh come on who live at the north pole

00:58:30.340 --> 00:58:32.940
oh but don't worry though it then turns out there's

00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:38.380
a secret race of um of white martians who have

00:58:38.380 --> 00:58:42.139
been pulling the strings oh no with a vast ancient

00:58:42.139 --> 00:58:45.440
empire of more sophisticated cities and advanced

00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:48.539
technology and they're all white skinned with

00:58:48.539 --> 00:58:53.380
blonde hair oh no oh no but then then it's revealed

00:58:53.380 --> 00:58:55.840
that these aren't the original but actually the

00:58:55.840 --> 00:58:59.460
first born martians were actually the black martians

00:58:59.460 --> 00:59:02.539
who inhabited the moon of mars and were then

00:59:02.539 --> 00:59:07.119
the first to come to the planet And things get

00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:11.400
really weird later on. Duncan, I wish you had

00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:14.400
not told me any of that. I feel like you have

00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:17.199
knocked a significant amount of quality out of

00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:20.199
my life. The overall goodness of my life has

00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:23.699
definitely dropped like 2 % after learning that.

00:59:23.860 --> 00:59:26.500
And I hope it gets better, but there's a possibility

00:59:26.500 --> 00:59:32.599
it never will. I'm sorry. And I do want to say,

00:59:32.659 --> 00:59:37.159
I think there is... some pulpy fun to be mined

00:59:37.159 --> 00:59:39.860
out of John Carter. It is sort of an origin point

00:59:39.860 --> 00:59:44.059
for so much. I don't want to feel like I'm bashing

00:59:44.059 --> 00:59:45.639
people who have read the whole series and enjoy

00:59:45.639 --> 00:59:47.960
it. I want you to know, everything I've just

00:59:47.960 --> 00:59:50.179
spoken about, I haven't actually read the original

00:59:50.179 --> 00:59:52.320
series. Again, I've read the whole comic book,

00:59:52.380 --> 00:59:56.750
which adapts a lot of these stories. So... I

00:59:56.750 --> 00:59:58.289
can't speak to the quality there. And I've read

00:59:58.289 --> 01:00:00.489
more Burroughs. I've read Tarzan. I enjoy his

01:00:00.489 --> 01:00:02.829
writing. And this was his first novel. And if

01:00:02.829 --> 01:00:05.050
they get better in the more pulpy adventure way,

01:00:05.090 --> 01:00:07.690
I can still see why someone could definitely

01:00:07.690 --> 01:00:12.820
get enjoyment out of that. Oh my goodness. There

01:00:12.820 --> 01:00:16.420
is a lot that if you keep it at the most surface

01:00:16.420 --> 01:00:19.619
level, I see how you could slide by and enjoy

01:00:19.619 --> 01:00:22.380
and just go, they're just Martians. They're just

01:00:22.380 --> 01:00:25.099
different. He's just picked random colours. I'm

01:00:25.099 --> 01:00:27.880
sure they don't mean anything. Look, there are

01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:30.460
blue ones over there. The fact that some are

01:00:30.460 --> 01:00:32.619
yellow, some are black and some are white means

01:00:32.619 --> 01:00:38.119
nothing. Maybe. Who knows? Duncan. I think some

01:00:38.119 --> 01:00:40.420
people do though. Duncan, there was a period

01:00:40.420 --> 01:00:44.579
of time. In the 1990s, where one of the main

01:00:44.579 --> 01:00:47.800
antagonists that the Justice League was fighting

01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:51.960
in DC Comics were the White Martians, who were

01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:56.900
the oppressed underclass on Mars, discriminated

01:00:56.900 --> 01:00:59.980
against by the Green Martians who stood atop.

01:01:00.300 --> 01:01:04.139
And the White Martians were savage and evil and

01:01:04.139 --> 01:01:07.019
had to be confronted by the heroes like Wonder

01:01:07.019 --> 01:01:09.480
Woman and Superman. And that has always bemused

01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:13.610
me. that we got to a point in the 1990s where

01:01:13.610 --> 01:01:17.869
we were like, all right, yes, the oppressed underclass

01:01:17.869 --> 01:01:22.610
are evil and they must be stopped by the forces

01:01:22.610 --> 01:01:26.730
of law. Get them, Superman. Kill those white

01:01:26.730 --> 01:01:30.250
Martians. It can't be racist because the white

01:01:30.250 --> 01:01:34.750
ones are the underclass. Again, what am I trying

01:01:34.750 --> 01:01:38.980
to say? The concept of taking... contemporary

01:01:38.980 --> 01:01:41.380
race issues and exploring them in an alien setting

01:01:41.380 --> 01:01:46.539
is a good idea. It has worked many times. What's

01:01:46.539 --> 01:01:49.519
done here is... It has failed many times as well.

01:01:50.500 --> 01:01:54.820
Yes. And this is a bit of a failure. I think

01:01:54.820 --> 01:01:56.500
we've struck several things on the head here.

01:01:57.380 --> 01:01:59.159
I think we've talked about the point that maybe

01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:01.119
this... Well, Princess of Mars, and I don't know

01:02:01.119 --> 01:02:03.739
where the series goes... This first book isn't

01:02:03.739 --> 01:02:06.300
the most rip -roaring piece of pulp you probably

01:02:06.300 --> 01:02:09.219
will have ever read. And in fact, Bower's next

01:02:09.219 --> 01:02:12.980
novel, Tarzan of the Apes, is miles better in

01:02:12.980 --> 01:02:15.860
terms of just how it is written. I think we've

01:02:15.860 --> 01:02:17.539
also hit something in terms of the fact that,

01:02:17.599 --> 01:02:19.880
Geordi, one of your biggest complaints was about

01:02:19.880 --> 01:02:21.460
world building. And there's something we've learnt

01:02:21.460 --> 01:02:24.039
time and time again whenever we seem to really

01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:26.860
hard conflict on a novel. It's because I just

01:02:26.860 --> 01:02:30.119
have a much bigger tolerance for exposition dumps.

01:02:30.349 --> 01:02:32.730
and like, heeds our law. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's

01:02:32.730 --> 01:02:35.449
true. And I think that's just who we are as people.

01:02:35.829 --> 01:02:40.150
It's true. I almost don't notice that. I think

01:02:40.150 --> 01:02:41.610
this book just could have been more exciting.

01:02:42.250 --> 01:02:44.449
You know, like, I remember when I was a kid,

01:02:44.610 --> 01:02:48.550
I think I was in the cinema to see How to Train

01:02:48.550 --> 01:02:52.250
Your Dragon 1. I think this might line up with

01:02:52.250 --> 01:02:55.909
the timeline. And I saw the trailer for John

01:02:55.909 --> 01:03:00.010
Carter of Mars. And the big centerpiece of this

01:03:00.010 --> 01:03:03.090
trailer was him in a gladiatorial arena. And

01:03:03.090 --> 01:03:05.809
a gigantic beast was charging him. And he had

01:03:05.809 --> 01:03:07.929
a big rock and a chain. He was swinging around

01:03:07.929 --> 01:03:11.469
and yelling to fight this monster. So when I'm

01:03:11.469 --> 01:03:15.150
reading this book, I'm like, okay, let's see

01:03:15.150 --> 01:03:19.480
that. Let's see him fight a big monster in a

01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:23.900
big gladiatorial arena. Let's go crazy. The closest

01:03:23.900 --> 01:03:25.760
we come to that, there is a scene where he fights

01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:29.719
a big Martian ape. And that's good fun. That

01:03:29.719 --> 01:03:31.659
feels like something out of Tarzan. That feels

01:03:31.659 --> 01:03:35.239
like something out of Conan. There is a gladiatorial

01:03:35.239 --> 01:03:38.920
fight in this book. And it's really foreshadowed.

01:03:39.639 --> 01:03:43.480
And it's astoundingly boring. There's always

01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:46.719
a question I wonder. is this like a hangover

01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:48.699
the fact that it was turned into a novel later

01:03:48.699 --> 01:03:53.059
but you know without the exposition and i was

01:03:53.059 --> 01:03:54.300
thinking this through as i was reading it and

01:03:54.300 --> 01:03:57.619
i go no these fight scenes don't work in any

01:03:57.619 --> 01:04:00.179
context i mentioned my favorite was the one the

01:04:00.179 --> 01:04:02.119
one at the end which is more of like a big battle

01:04:02.119 --> 01:04:05.320
i think that got it up but individual one -on

01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:08.619
-one fights they're just not the most fun the

01:04:08.619 --> 01:04:10.219
way they're described i think part of it is the

01:04:10.219 --> 01:04:13.340
fact that because john carter gets so op compared

01:04:13.340 --> 01:04:16.599
to anything in mars you just he never has like

01:04:16.599 --> 01:04:19.139
a struggle you know he's never gripping about

01:04:19.139 --> 01:04:22.420
he's never using his full weight to barely bring

01:04:22.420 --> 01:04:25.699
this beast to bay the one time he just kind of

01:04:25.699 --> 01:04:28.480
flies through the only time he the only way edgar

01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:32.360
burris edgar is burris seems to be able to show

01:04:32.360 --> 01:04:35.579
that a fight is hard is to say and we fought

01:04:35.579 --> 01:04:41.920
for an hour an hour how you didn't get tired

01:04:42.750 --> 01:04:44.449
What do you mean you fought for an hour? Were

01:04:44.449 --> 01:04:47.769
you taking breaks? It's like a boxing match.

01:04:47.889 --> 01:04:49.630
You went for three minutes and you had a minute

01:04:49.630 --> 01:04:53.110
out. What happened? What were you doing for that

01:04:53.110 --> 01:04:57.230
hour? Are you just exchanging, like, blows? Or

01:04:57.230 --> 01:05:00.869
are you running about in circles? The scene in

01:05:00.869 --> 01:05:03.070
question where I talk about the Coliseum, it's

01:05:03.070 --> 01:05:06.039
like that. He says, like... And they sent many

01:05:06.039 --> 01:05:08.820
men against me. And all of them fell. And then

01:05:08.820 --> 01:05:11.380
they told me I had to fight my new best friend.

01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:15.639
And we pretended to fight for an hour. And then

01:05:15.639 --> 01:05:17.260
when I sensed the crowd was getting restless,

01:05:17.460 --> 01:05:22.039
I let them stab me between my belly and my arm.

01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:24.219
And I trapped the blade there. And then they

01:05:24.219 --> 01:05:26.519
fell down and pretended to be dead. And they

01:05:26.519 --> 01:05:30.980
didn't check. And then I walked out. I just left

01:05:30.980 --> 01:05:34.360
the Coliseum. Spartacus really should have thought

01:05:34.360 --> 01:05:36.219
of that one. I love that no one was on clean

01:05:36.219 --> 01:05:39.800
-up duty. What do we do with the bodies? Leave

01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:46.340
them there. Come on. Ah, Geordi, I mean, do you

01:05:46.340 --> 01:05:48.340
have anything else you'd like to add on Princess

01:05:48.340 --> 01:05:54.239
of Mars? I have a question. Go ahead. How's the

01:05:54.239 --> 01:05:59.179
movie? That's a good question. Thank you. Thank

01:05:59.179 --> 01:06:02.159
you for asking. So Jean -Claude's with a... That's

01:06:02.159 --> 01:06:04.840
the entire title. It was a bit of a flop. In

01:06:04.840 --> 01:06:07.539
fact, it was one of the biggest flops in cinematic

01:06:07.539 --> 01:06:12.260
history when it first came out. Watching it now,

01:06:12.460 --> 01:06:15.780
I don't think it's all about the movie. I don't

01:06:15.780 --> 01:06:17.059
think it's necessarily... It's not a terribly

01:06:17.059 --> 01:06:19.179
bad movie. In fact, I think it does a decent

01:06:19.179 --> 01:06:22.820
job, particularly in visuals, of capturing the

01:06:22.820 --> 01:06:29.579
world and adventure. What it is... Sorry, one

01:06:29.579 --> 01:06:32.320
sec. Duncan's dying. The atmosphere is running

01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:34.380
out in his house. He needs to find the special

01:06:34.380 --> 01:06:37.179
lever to pull so he doesn't die and get sent

01:06:37.179 --> 01:06:39.760
back to his home planet. Right, where was I?

01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:43.599
The thing about the film is, it is like 30 minutes,

01:06:43.800 --> 01:06:48.440
45, too long. The framing narrative in the novel,

01:06:48.619 --> 01:06:51.039
that probably could have been just wholesale

01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:56.719
cut, goes on and on and on. There is so much

01:06:56.719 --> 01:06:59.579
John Carter on Earth, but not like... character

01:06:59.579 --> 01:07:05.860
building just sort of not burrows interacting

01:07:05.860 --> 01:07:09.699
with his uncle and people are after him and there's

01:07:09.699 --> 01:07:11.619
this conspiracy and more people on earth might

01:07:11.619 --> 01:07:14.780
know about mars and it just could have all been

01:07:14.780 --> 01:07:18.820
cut we just literally went like the book cave

01:07:18.820 --> 01:07:24.079
mars adventure well would have been much better

01:07:24.079 --> 01:07:26.960
but overall i think it's an okay film like you

01:07:26.960 --> 01:07:29.250
know you got disney plus They're a worse place

01:07:29.250 --> 01:07:31.250
to kill an evening. I think it adapts the first

01:07:31.250 --> 01:07:34.650
book pretty darn well in terms of overall story.

01:07:35.190 --> 01:07:38.690
If you're a fan of the book, you'll like the

01:07:38.690 --> 01:07:42.150
film. What if I'm not a fan of the book, Duncan?

01:07:43.969 --> 01:07:47.429
Well, you might like the film a bit more. I still

01:07:47.429 --> 01:07:50.090
can't bring myself to say that I deeply dislike

01:07:50.090 --> 01:07:55.110
Princess of Mars. But I am standing here now,

01:07:55.170 --> 01:07:57.429
Geordie, having recommended it to you and tried

01:07:57.429 --> 01:08:00.130
it on you, I'm like, oh. Maybe I shouldn't go

01:08:00.130 --> 01:08:02.989
around recommending this to people. What's your

01:08:02.989 --> 01:08:06.449
take, by the way? Princess of Mars. Did you like

01:08:06.449 --> 01:08:08.090
it? Do you recommend it? We know the answer to

01:08:08.090 --> 01:08:14.449
one. I didn't like it and I don't recommend it.

01:08:14.530 --> 01:08:16.510
I don't think there's a lot to actually gain

01:08:16.510 --> 01:08:21.149
out of reading this one. Because, you know, this

01:08:21.149 --> 01:08:24.460
should be... more serialized, more pulpy. I know

01:08:24.460 --> 01:08:27.640
it was originally serialized. This is the wrong

01:08:27.640 --> 01:08:31.140
format to read this in. I mentioned earlier this

01:08:31.140 --> 01:08:35.819
year, Duncan, that I had read a short story called

01:08:35.819 --> 01:08:39.140
The Son of the White Wolf. I was looking for

01:08:39.140 --> 01:08:43.199
Michael Moorcock's Son of the White Wolf, not

01:08:43.199 --> 01:08:47.359
The Son of the White Wolf. No, sorry. White Wolf's

01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:50.699
Son by Michael Moorcock. And he discovered, hey,

01:08:51.180 --> 01:08:53.460
A Robert E. Howard story I'd never heard of before.

01:08:53.920 --> 01:08:57.159
It introduced me to new characters in a new setting

01:08:57.159 --> 01:09:01.880
I'd never seen before. It was very racist. Much

01:09:01.880 --> 01:09:05.600
more so even than this book. But I still had

01:09:05.600 --> 01:09:08.380
a much better time. Because guess what? It was

01:09:08.380 --> 01:09:11.619
a little package deal. I read through it in 45

01:09:11.619 --> 01:09:14.319
minutes. I got the full experience and was like,

01:09:14.420 --> 01:09:18.550
okay, I feel like... I learned something new

01:09:18.550 --> 01:09:22.109
about an author I like. I feel like I learned

01:09:22.109 --> 01:09:25.510
something new and interesting about this stage

01:09:25.510 --> 01:09:29.710
of literary history. I feel like that was worth

01:09:29.710 --> 01:09:33.529
experiencing. I would recommend that to fans

01:09:33.529 --> 01:09:37.779
of pulp fiction. I can't say the same for this,

01:09:37.920 --> 01:09:39.680
because there's no point in this story where

01:09:39.680 --> 01:09:43.359
I would say, read this bit, read this collection

01:09:43.359 --> 01:09:46.100
of chapters, and you will learn something about

01:09:46.100 --> 01:09:49.340
the place that fantasy has come from. It will

01:09:49.340 --> 01:09:52.819
be worth your time. I just don't think that exists

01:09:52.819 --> 01:10:00.500
here. Curious. I think I disagree. I do like

01:10:00.500 --> 01:10:02.159
it a bit more from you, but I still wouldn't

01:10:02.159 --> 01:10:04.560
recommend Princes of Mars purely on an enjoyment

01:10:04.560 --> 01:10:08.079
factor. I would recommend it on a historical

01:10:08.079 --> 01:10:12.100
context factor I think it is really nice to see

01:10:12.100 --> 01:10:16.460
an early example of science fantasy I think when

01:10:16.460 --> 01:10:19.060
you can read it and see where things go connections

01:10:19.060 --> 01:10:25.539
to Star Trek connections to superheroes and just

01:10:25.539 --> 01:10:29.850
a general characterization of alien worlds There

01:10:29.850 --> 01:10:32.029
is something there, but you're right, it is quite

01:10:32.029 --> 01:10:36.630
a slog for what you're getting out of it. I certainly

01:10:36.630 --> 01:10:40.210
wouldn't recommend it on a pulpy, fun front.

01:10:40.609 --> 01:10:42.189
Certainly, if you're interested in getting into

01:10:42.189 --> 01:10:47.210
boroughs, definitely start with Tarzan. I would

01:10:47.210 --> 01:10:49.270
also want to add, actually, two really other

01:10:49.270 --> 01:10:51.829
key things. I know we spoke a lot this episode

01:10:51.829 --> 01:10:55.489
about the sensitivities and the politics and

01:10:55.489 --> 01:10:59.520
the racism around, you know, everything in this

01:10:59.520 --> 01:11:02.359
book I don't think it's the most heavy -handed

01:11:02.359 --> 01:11:05.000
thing and also it certainly comes across for

01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:09.180
me as a oh particularly in this first book I'm

01:11:09.180 --> 01:11:12.579
going to make that very clear it doesn't read

01:11:12.579 --> 01:11:16.140
like Lovecraft at his most racist and it's like

01:11:16.140 --> 01:11:19.520
egregious and against the story and horribly

01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:25.420
unpleasant it does read more as insensitive for

01:11:25.420 --> 01:11:30.260
the time though I don't think he's actively going

01:11:30.260 --> 01:11:34.640
out with a negative message. True. I just think

01:11:34.640 --> 01:11:39.199
it's a product of his times. And he certainly

01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:41.279
does a lot better than Lovecraft, and probably

01:11:41.279 --> 01:11:43.500
even Robert E. Howard, as you alluded to in the

01:11:43.500 --> 01:11:46.500
story that you had. So in that way, I think,

01:11:46.579 --> 01:11:49.680
you know, don't let that put you off. Let it

01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:53.239
being a bit boring put you off. Go and read Tarzan.

01:11:53.479 --> 01:11:56.840
That still has problematic issues. But at least

01:11:56.840 --> 01:12:00.300
it's fun and exciting. And my final point. I

01:12:00.300 --> 01:12:02.520
really want to hammer home Princess Mars. Because

01:12:02.520 --> 01:12:03.939
I keep saying this. I've said this again and

01:12:03.939 --> 01:12:06.300
again throughout the episode. I really like the

01:12:06.300 --> 01:12:09.420
comic book. Warlords of Mars by Dynamite Comics.

01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:13.960
Is a really fun read. Because it takes Princess

01:12:13.960 --> 01:12:16.939
of Mars. And it slaps it into about four comic

01:12:16.939 --> 01:12:22.159
issues. It's faster. It's colourful. It smooths

01:12:22.159 --> 01:12:25.659
off some of the rougher edges a little bit. highly

01:12:25.659 --> 01:12:28.779
highly highly recommend duncan are you aware

01:12:28.779 --> 01:12:32.579
that there's an rpg system based off of john

01:12:32.579 --> 01:12:35.319
carter of mars i was not aware but i'm not surprised

01:12:35.319 --> 01:12:39.220
do you think that's something that you'd be interested

01:12:39.220 --> 01:12:41.479
in thinking about like you think it'd be something

01:12:41.479 --> 01:12:45.340
that you think would be fun to explore as a setting

01:12:45.340 --> 01:12:48.779
for people to have their own adventures in that's

01:12:48.779 --> 01:12:51.920
a very good question i think based on what i

01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:54.079
know of the setting I think it would be quite

01:12:54.079 --> 01:12:56.779
a hard one to do because the setting of John

01:12:56.779 --> 01:12:59.260
Carter is very much tailored to some of John

01:12:59.260 --> 01:13:02.100
Carter's adventures. John Carter, basically,

01:13:02.100 --> 01:13:04.960
from the arcs I've read forward in the comics,

01:13:05.199 --> 01:13:08.420
he finds a new civilization or a new Martian

01:13:08.420 --> 01:13:11.399
type and has an adventure in their city. And

01:13:11.399 --> 01:13:13.439
then the next one, he finds the next lost secret

01:13:13.439 --> 01:13:16.579
civilization. Like I said, we basically go, ah!

01:13:17.199 --> 01:13:19.640
there's this lost civilization of yellow martians

01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:21.699
oh no there's a lost civilization of white martians

01:13:21.699 --> 01:13:24.500
oh no there is a lost lost civilization of black

01:13:24.500 --> 01:13:28.579
martians and it kind of falls through i don't

01:13:28.579 --> 01:13:31.560
know how i would really do trying to build a

01:13:31.560 --> 01:13:36.439
complete world like a sandbox for a barsoom campaign

01:13:36.439 --> 01:13:39.699
probably a one -off six sessions you could do

01:13:39.699 --> 01:13:42.699
it but i think i would struggle to really get

01:13:42.699 --> 01:13:45.739
to the depth of this universe Would it interest

01:13:45.739 --> 01:13:47.479
you to know that it's made by modifiers to people

01:13:47.479 --> 01:13:49.699
who made Conan Adventures in an Age Undreamed

01:13:49.699 --> 01:13:53.659
Of? Oh, hello. I like that. Okay, you sold it

01:13:53.659 --> 01:13:57.939
to me. 2D20? Can we have at least four different

01:13:57.939 --> 01:14:01.020
currencies for game mechanics? And everyone needs

01:14:01.020 --> 01:14:03.399
to have both a physical and mental health bar.

01:14:04.010 --> 01:14:06.050
There is a third one, actually. There's a physical

01:14:06.050 --> 01:14:08.710
and a mental health bar. And there's also objects

01:14:08.710 --> 01:14:12.029
health bars. And they all have a unique system

01:14:12.029 --> 01:14:15.689
of healing where medicine heals physical wounds,

01:14:15.989 --> 01:14:19.909
counselling heals mental wounds, and smithing

01:14:19.909 --> 01:14:24.829
heals breakage in objects. Okay, at no point

01:14:24.829 --> 01:14:26.750
while reading Princess and Master did I go, yes,

01:14:26.909 --> 01:14:29.649
this is a scene where John Carter gets counselling.

01:14:34.840 --> 01:14:37.500
Duncan, I've come to my conclusion. It sounds

01:14:37.500 --> 01:14:40.439
like you've come to yours as well. I think I

01:14:40.439 --> 01:14:42.539
have, and I think it's certainly come off more

01:14:42.539 --> 01:14:45.279
negatively than I anticipated when I picked this

01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:48.239
book. But then, as I kind of self -reflected,

01:14:48.239 --> 01:14:51.079
I did realise I read this book for the first

01:14:51.079 --> 01:14:55.680
time, Geordie, six years ago, and I never wanted

01:14:55.680 --> 01:14:58.439
to read. It's not even occurred to me to read

01:14:58.439 --> 01:15:02.220
any of the follow -ups. Whereas... I read a load

01:15:02.220 --> 01:15:04.239
of Tarzans, and do you know what? I still think,

01:15:04.319 --> 01:15:06.640
oh gosh, if I had the time, I would definitely

01:15:06.640 --> 01:15:09.619
read another one. Never had this with Princess

01:15:09.619 --> 01:15:14.279
of Mars. So, I think I knew, but I knew deep

01:15:14.279 --> 01:15:16.880
down it was hidden behind lots of other emotions.

01:15:18.260 --> 01:15:20.119
I'm sure that must have been troubling to come

01:15:20.119 --> 01:15:24.000
to terms with, Duncan. A moment of silence. We're

01:15:24.000 --> 01:15:25.260
not allowed to actually do moments of silence.

01:15:25.319 --> 01:15:27.239
That's bad podcasting. It is, it's terrible.

01:15:27.380 --> 01:15:31.359
Duncan! Geordie! I think we said all we can about.

01:15:31.819 --> 01:15:35.239
A Princess of Mars and John Carter. We probably

01:15:35.239 --> 01:15:37.939
aren't going to play that RPG. I probably will

01:15:37.939 --> 01:15:39.920
watch the movie. Maybe I'll give a little mini

01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:42.840
review. At the start of a future episode. We

01:15:42.840 --> 01:15:46.859
shall see. Weirdly enough Duncan. When I saw

01:15:46.859 --> 01:15:49.720
Thunderbolts. I never saw the Black Widow movie.

01:15:50.060 --> 01:15:52.680
And I never saw. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

01:15:52.979 --> 01:15:55.140
And I didn't see Captain America Brave New World.

01:15:55.399 --> 01:15:58.020
So when I went into it. I was really going in

01:15:58.020 --> 01:16:01.069
blind. And I'm like. I might need to go back

01:16:01.069 --> 01:16:04.609
and watch those to understand exactly what I

01:16:04.609 --> 01:16:06.850
just saw. Because whilst I did have a good time,

01:16:07.050 --> 01:16:09.109
I did often feel like I was playing catch -up.

01:16:10.210 --> 01:16:12.369
So somewhere along the way, I've got to fit in

01:16:12.369 --> 01:16:14.890
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and squeeze

01:16:14.890 --> 01:16:17.810
John Carter in there somewhere. All on Disney

01:16:17.810 --> 01:16:21.069
+, mate. Well worth the subscription. When you

01:16:21.069 --> 01:16:23.630
say that, you actually mean well worth persuading

01:16:23.630 --> 01:16:25.750
your girlfriend to log in on your laptop so that

01:16:25.750 --> 01:16:29.340
you can watch while she's doing yoga. Oh. Absolutely.

01:16:29.359 --> 01:16:31.779
Do you think I went through university and ever

01:16:31.779 --> 01:16:35.159
paid for my own Netflix? Not in the good old

01:16:35.159 --> 01:16:37.159
days. It's a very complicated arrangement in

01:16:37.159 --> 01:16:40.920
my household because I use my housemate's Netflix.

01:16:41.720 --> 01:16:45.600
Everyone's using my Amazon Prime and then I'm

01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:49.699
using my girlfriend's Disney Plus. Really, ****

01:16:49.699 --> 01:16:51.899
is letting the team down. Actually, I don't know

01:16:51.899 --> 01:16:54.260
if I should say her name because I haven't asked

01:16:54.260 --> 01:16:55.439
her if I could talk about her on the podcast.

01:16:56.380 --> 01:16:59.380
Really, I think, redacted. is letting the team

01:16:59.380 --> 01:17:01.680
down by not contributing enough streaming services.

01:17:01.840 --> 01:17:06.560
She could at least give us Paramount Plus. Oh,

01:17:06.739 --> 01:17:09.460
Apple TV, mate. You've got to get on the Foundation

01:17:09.460 --> 01:17:17.140
TV show. I will not do that. It looks shit. Moving

01:17:17.140 --> 01:17:21.199
on. Moving on. If I want to watch Apple TV and

01:17:21.199 --> 01:17:23.859
forget, hey, forget Foundation. Duncan, have

01:17:23.859 --> 01:17:25.859
you seen For All Mankind? No. Do you know what?

01:17:25.859 --> 01:17:27.420
I've been trying to get my girlfriend to watch

01:17:27.420 --> 01:17:30.680
with me. The Expanse TV show. Now that I've read

01:17:30.680 --> 01:17:32.640
all the books that cover the TV show, I'm like,

01:17:32.680 --> 01:17:36.619
right, I want to jump into this. I don't know

01:17:36.619 --> 01:17:40.479
about that, but Duncan, you as an engineer, you

01:17:40.479 --> 01:17:42.779
as a fan of science fiction, for the love of

01:17:42.779 --> 01:17:45.960
God, you have to watch Forumankind. It's amazing.

01:17:46.640 --> 01:17:49.020
It's not even remotely within the bandwidth of

01:17:49.020 --> 01:17:51.199
this TV show. You can't persuade me that it's

01:17:51.199 --> 01:17:53.579
fantasy. So let's move on to something that is

01:17:53.579 --> 01:17:55.859
more relevant, but we are not going to drop Forumankind.

01:17:56.000 --> 01:18:00.460
You should watch it. Duncan. Geordi. You chose

01:18:00.460 --> 01:18:06.300
John Carter of Mars, a princess of Mars, warlords

01:18:06.300 --> 01:18:10.680
of Mars, under the moons of Mars. It's in there

01:18:10.680 --> 01:18:15.819
somewhere. But now it's my turn to pick the book

01:18:15.819 --> 01:18:18.439
we're reading for next time. What are you going

01:18:18.439 --> 01:18:21.180
to do, Geordi? I've gone back. This is like,

01:18:21.279 --> 01:18:23.439
I think, other than our Bram Stoker, our most

01:18:23.439 --> 01:18:26.520
historic book we've ever touched. Are we going

01:18:26.520 --> 01:18:28.460
contemporary? Are we going somewhere in the middle?

01:18:29.600 --> 01:18:32.220
What's it going to be? We are going somewhere

01:18:32.220 --> 01:18:35.060
in the middle. And actually, we're going to a

01:18:35.060 --> 01:18:38.060
place that I haven't often strayed. I don't know

01:18:38.060 --> 01:18:41.960
if I've ever brought us a book from this era.

01:18:42.159 --> 01:18:45.239
I feel like this has been more your wheelhouse

01:18:45.239 --> 01:18:49.800
up to now. And to be quite frank, I don't really

01:18:49.800 --> 01:18:52.020
know what I'm bringing to the table here. This

01:18:52.020 --> 01:18:54.479
was something that I saw mentioned online. I

01:18:54.479 --> 01:18:56.500
looked into it. It sounded a little interesting,

01:18:56.560 --> 01:18:59.380
but I really have no idea what it's about. But

01:18:59.380 --> 01:19:01.359
it just was like, hey, we haven't really done

01:19:01.359 --> 01:19:07.039
something like this from this era before. Interesting.

01:19:07.460 --> 01:19:11.640
I'm curiously optimistic. By the way, I think

01:19:11.640 --> 01:19:13.800
Midway is actually something ridiculous like

01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:18.359
1968 at this point. Time is weird. Yeah, yeah,

01:19:18.399 --> 01:19:21.600
we really have stretched ourselves out. Actually,

01:19:21.800 --> 01:19:23.779
you know what? It would be really interesting

01:19:23.779 --> 01:19:28.760
to know what the mean, median, and mode average

01:19:28.760 --> 01:19:32.899
is for when we choose to read books. I could

01:19:32.899 --> 01:19:36.760
find that out. I have a spreadsheet full of all

01:19:36.760 --> 01:19:38.920
the books we've done. I could pretty quickly

01:19:38.920 --> 01:19:42.800
find that out. I'm going to do that. You should

01:19:42.800 --> 01:19:44.279
do that. And if you want to see those results,

01:19:44.399 --> 01:19:46.630
the best place will be our Instagram. Is this

01:19:46.630 --> 01:19:48.689
fantasy podcast? Is this just fantasy podcast?

01:19:49.470 --> 01:19:51.810
On Instagram. Best place to contact us to find

01:19:51.810 --> 01:19:53.670
out when new episodes are released and little

01:19:53.670 --> 01:19:56.050
extra reviews and tidbits as we go along. Also,

01:19:56.109 --> 01:19:58.630
catch us on Blue Sky at justfantasy on Blue Sky.

01:19:59.029 --> 01:20:01.989
And as always, our Gmail. Best place to ask us

01:20:01.989 --> 01:20:04.590
a long, big old question that might just turn

01:20:04.590 --> 01:20:07.569
into a bonus episode at isthisjustfantasy at

01:20:07.569 --> 01:20:11.470
gmail .com. Isthisjustfantasypodcast at gmail

01:20:11.470 --> 01:20:14.899
.com. Yes, you'll write that inside. It's just

01:20:14.899 --> 01:20:18.199
a fancy podcast at gmail .com. Thank you, Geordie.

01:20:18.819 --> 01:20:21.600
Duncan, I don't know if you've even heard of

01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:28.079
this. Next time, we are going to be reading Sheep

01:20:28.079 --> 01:20:31.760
Farmer's Daughter, the first part of The Deed

01:20:31.760 --> 01:20:38.020
of Paxenarion by Elizabeth Moon. Well, the answer's

01:20:38.020 --> 01:20:43.779
no. Okay. Secondly, 1988. 1988. Wow, you googled

01:20:43.779 --> 01:20:46.579
that really fast. I didn't edit out a big pause

01:20:46.579 --> 01:20:50.140
there. Yes, so we've done a couple of books from

01:20:50.140 --> 01:20:52.520
the 1980s. I don't think I've ever introduced

01:20:52.520 --> 01:20:54.840
a book from the 1980s. But we definitely have

01:20:54.840 --> 01:20:58.819
not introduced a book by a female author of,

01:20:58.840 --> 01:21:02.979
like, fantasy adventure from the 1980s. That's

01:21:02.979 --> 01:21:05.260
a combination of sentences that I don't think

01:21:05.260 --> 01:21:08.279
we've done so far. No, I don't think we have

01:21:08.279 --> 01:21:11.119
even... nearly approached it. I think the only

01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:13.600
rule in the 1980s that we properly hit, we did,

01:21:13.600 --> 01:21:15.819
what was it, we did Dark, we did Gunslinger,

01:21:15.819 --> 01:21:18.060
and we've done Magician. Magician, exactly. Which

01:21:18.060 --> 01:21:21.060
are the only two that jump out to me. That's

01:21:21.060 --> 01:21:23.539
why I feel like I want to hone in on this spot.

01:21:23.659 --> 01:21:25.359
I think this is going to be interesting. You've

01:21:25.359 --> 01:21:28.579
got a female sword and sorcery hero in the main

01:21:28.579 --> 01:21:30.399
position here. She's right there on the cover.

01:21:30.479 --> 01:21:33.840
She's like a knight fighting some weird wolves

01:21:33.840 --> 01:21:35.880
in a river. I don't know how that happened. Let's

01:21:35.880 --> 01:21:39.489
find out. Okay, well, I... Deeply look forward

01:21:39.489 --> 01:21:41.550
to exploring that book with you too, Geordie.

01:21:41.810 --> 01:21:45.789
Please, everyone, join us next time for The Sheep's

01:21:45.789 --> 01:21:48.890
Farmer's Daughter. I'm looking forward to it.

01:21:49.369 --> 01:21:52.630
I've been your host, Geordie Bailey. And I've

01:21:52.630 --> 01:21:55.649
been your other host, Duncan Nicol. So long.

01:21:56.189 --> 01:21:56.630
Bye.