Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This
Just Fantasy, the podcast where every other week
two nerds get together to rate, read and review
a fantasy novel. I'm your host, Geordie Bailey.
And I'm his surprisingly cute alien dog, Duncan
Nichol. Duncan, there were so many things you
could have gone for there. Why did you do that
one? Because I love the character of Woola. And
if you ever see the Disney film, it's just ace.
I gotta say, Duncan, I did mean to watch the
Disney version of John Carter in advance of this
episode, but I did not manage to find the time,
so I apologise for that. You are most certainly
forgiven. But yes, that's what we're talking
about today. Princess of Mars is the first John
Carter book by famed author Edgar Rice Burroughs,
written in, well, I'm not quite sure when written,
but first published as a novel in February 1912?
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, actually, you make a
good point there, because I was having a quick
scan of a Wikipedia article, and unsurprisingly,
this was an originally serialized series. Yes,
it was. I believe it's called Under the Moons
of Mars was like the original title. And then
when it got compiled together, it got renamed.
Well, I think I actually went through a couple
of names. From what I can see, Edgar Burroughs
was like just throwing different versions at
his publisher and just been like, come on, which
one? I don't care. Just pick one. Yeah, that's
like me when I'm trying to do SEO for this podcast.
Oh, thanks for that. But yes, this is actually
a really interesting one. Obviously, Edgar Burroughs.
for people not aware, most famous character is
Tarzan. Tarzan of the Apes. He wrote that after
John Carter. Same year, 1912. I believe it's
around October time. He kicked out the first
Tarzan novel. I don't need to explain Tarzan.
But yeah, he's a famed writer of very pulpy...
fantasy, science fiction, you know, good for
doing like swashbuckling adventurers. And as
fans of swashbuckling pulpy adventures, especially
Robert E. Howard, and then later, of course,
we have Michael Moorcock and Elric of Menibone,
this really seems to be up our alley. it certainly
does and what's often talked about when people
talk about John carter particularly the dialogue
around the disney movie that came out is a lot
of people kind of go this is the story that originated
so many ideas that looking at it now it almost
seems derivative it's sort of that same i think
dragon ball z is probably something that's suffered
all dragon ball it's something that suffered
the same kind of fate it like pioneered so much
that so many people copied It almost seems, I
don't know, a bit more mundane or by the numbers
by modern standards. Yeah, totally. That's a
good comparison, I feel. So before we jump into
Princess of Mars, though, Geordie, has there
been anything else fantasy or not fantasy related
that you have been reading, watching, experiencing
that you just want to share with us? I don't
think I've been reading anything else. It's been
a pretty busy period of time for me. I have been
to see a fair few movies. I really, really like
seeing Sinners. Duncan, have you seen that? No,
I have not. I highly recommend it. I really,
highly recommend it. It's best... The best experience
you can have is to go into it with absolutely
no idea what it's about. So, Duncan, dear listeners,
trust me, it's really good. The acting is stellar.
The sound design is great. A lot of amazing performances.
The singing is surprisingly amazing. You really
don't see that coming. Fantastic. Is it a musical?
I highly recommend. It's not a musical. It's
about musicians. Okay. Oh, that sounds interesting.
Yeah, I will definitely. I don't know why. I
think when I heard the title, when you just said
the title, I just assumed, is it some sort of
like B -list horror? But no, you don't want to
tell me. Except that it's great. Contractually
abound to not tell you shit about it. The only
other thing I really experienced in that time
was after I saw that. Actually, I guess I have
another thing. My girlfriend and I went to see
Thunderbolts, the newest Marvel movie. I haven't
seen a Marvel movie in years at this point. Saw
it. I'm surprised by how much I liked it. I was
like, hey, this is actually pretty fun. But whilst
I was in the cinema, I was like, what the hell
is that? And I saw a poster. to demonstrate that
they were putting on the filmed version of Bonnie
and Clyde the Musical, with Jeremy Jordan and,
oh, I forget her name, something, I'll enter
her name here, Frances Maylee McCann. uh who
is a lady who i keep seeing in stuff by accident
and i think is really good i first saw her as
misa misa in the one like two night production
of death note the musical so weirdly niche stuff
but i was like oh my god i have to go see this
i've wanted to see this for years i i it's really
outside my wheelhouse musicals based on real
life criminals but if that's your thing i hope
you enjoy it i don't know why i have that's even
worth mentioning after that i finished babylon's
ashes last time i spoke about it i was partly
through the book so concluding thoughts i think
it may be my least favorite expanse novel yet
so nine out of ten would recommend did you not
like the ending i felt that the ending It was
a very interesting lean -in. So the ending of
Babylon on Ashes, it ties up a plot point that
was in the previous book. And it definitely gave
me this sensation. Geordi, tell me if you had
this when you read it. So sixth book in the Expanse
series, very closely linked to the preceding
book, Nemesis Games. It felt like the authors,
when they sat down, the dual authors that do
Expanse, they had an idea that was actually meant
to be like one book. And then they realised,
oh, this is actually like a book and a half worth
of narrative. And then they went, well, we might
as well make it two books. Yeah, yeah, that's
fair enough. I probably might be close to what
happened there. I liked Babylon's Ashes, but
certainly compared to all the other Expanse books,
and not to say this book is slow or sluggish,
but it has the most content in there that doesn't
directly drive the core plot. There are bits
in here which are world -building, which are
great character scenes, but I certainly felt
it had the most strenuous parts, but nicely spaced.
It wasn't like one character, well, maybe one
character. There's a character called Prax, who
comes back from a previous book, who, again,
I loved his chapters. Didn't need to be there.
Oh, yeah. Oh, but I like those chapters. I remembered
them now. Same. I like them. This is the thing.
I liked... everything i like the slower moments
when they're all sat in a bar or getting a bowl
of coffee but i certainly felt like this book
had more of those scenes than any of the preceding
books and and that's where i'm like if i had
to rank it it's my least favorite expanse book
so far still an amazing book there you go now
duncan it's good that you've been on a sci -fi
kick and i've been on a nebulous gap between
fantasy and science fiction, because we're back
in a familiar wheelhouse. We've picked something,
well, you picked something, that could arguably
be called science fiction. Duncan, would you
like to explain to me why is John Carter, and
more specifically, A Princess of Mars, why is
this not a sci -fi book? Why is this science
fantasy? That is a good question. Now, if you
go back to our previous episodes on like Dune
or something like Star Wars, I always sort of
argue that if you can take your sci -fi world
and roll back the clock and you arrive at something
fundamentally our reality, then I give that the
sci -fi. And if you roll it back and it's still
not, then I say fantasy. Now, this one's a bit
more interesting because the only real out there
bits are the fact there are aliens on Mars, which
is a perfectly reasonable sci -fi thing to throw
out there. Yeah. Why do I say fantasy? I say
fantasy because Princess of Mars takes such a
loose handle on every sci -fi concept and refuses
or just has this complete disinterest in explaining
any of it. Every bit of alien technology might
as well be magic. Just completely. Yeah, I mean,
it's hard to say because at a certain point,
where do you draw the line of, I understand that,
like, They have flying machines in this, and
it's explained that there's an eighth color,
basically, in the spectrum of light, and they
use that. It comes from the sun, it bounces off
the surface of the planet, and then their planes,
like, ride on the reflected rays of this eighth
light. And on one hand, you're like, is this
just... It is... The idea that there are more
spectrums of light than the eye can see, so revolutionary
and new that this feels like it's just one additional
step? Or is this, like, really just going way
beyond into the realm of magic? Because, Duncan,
and I have to be frank, I'm not completely convinced
this is fantasy. Okay, there are some major points
we could look at. Look, how does John Carter
get to Mars? He does turn into a ghost. That's
true. And that's the main one. That's the main
one. It's the sticker. It's a big sticker. It
is a big sticker. The reason why when I'm going
through this is that because it's talking so
much about canals on Mars and cities on Mars
and pyramids on Mars, this reminds me so much
of, Middle of the 20th century, pretty standard
sci -fi adventures like Journey Into Space, a
BBC radio show I listened to pretty religiously
when I was a teenager. It's so familiar to me
where they have the emphasis on telepathy and
the difference in gravity on the different planets
and how that would affect people. This obsession
with canals on Mars. It all felt very familiar
to ideas I'd seen explored in later, definitively,
sci -fi properties. Does the main character pick
up a sword and rescue a princess? I don't think
that's exclusively not a thing that can happen
in a sci -fi, but I understand. Yes, that's a
very fantastic thing. I appreciate this is probably
more tenuous. than some of my other claims, but
certainly the trappings and the pacing and the
themes of this novel would fit so neatly into
a fantasy setting. It's just the vibe, and I'm
prepared to take people's arguments on this,
but I'm almost going to be a bit blasé and like,
yeah, but guys, come on. Telepathy is magic.
Telepathy is pretty standard sci -fi. But Duncan,
here's the thing. I don't even disagree with
you. It's definitely, in my opinion, the most
tenuous. And that's including Dune, which became
fantasy because of a loophole. I think this is
the most tenuous, but you're right. I would still
call it fantasy. Science fantasy feels like the
appropriate place to give it this. Because it's
about a princess, and he does turn into a ghost.
That's absolutely awesome. I'm glad we're on
the same page. But yes, Princess of Mars. You
talked about the colour, by the way. A lot of
people, I think, hear that, and often you might
be thinking, oh, yeah, well, that's like Colour
Our Space. That's all H .P. Lovecraft. Yeah.
Bear in mind, 1912, we predate that. This is
pre -Lovecraft. This is pre -Robert E. Howard.
Like, Pulps are still a big thing, but this is
very much the early days before the big hitters
that come in just at the end of the era. Not
that they hadn't been around for ages. In fact,
we're not doing some research for this. I found
an amazing quote. from Burroughs so apparently
he said this in 1929 so quite a while later he's
been smashing out these novels for nearly two
decades so get a load of this it is amazing this
is Burroughs talking about why he started becoming
a pulp fiction writer if people were paid for
writing rot such as i read in some of these magazines
that i could write stories just as rotten As
a matter of fact, although I had never written
a story, I knew absolutely that I could write
stories just as entertaining and probably a whole
lot more so than any I chance to read in those
magazines. That's amazing. It's like a dark version
of Watership Down where he was like, I could
write a book better than this. And his daughter
was like, well, I wish you'd go on and just do
it then instead of just talking about it. There's
something just inspirational being like, these
books are awful. And people are paying for them.
I could do this. Duncan, I genuinely think that
all the time. It's in the back of my head at
least like a quarter of the books we do on this
podcast. Then again, another quarter on the books
in this podcast make me go, I will never be a
success. Oh my God, I can't write this well.
What the fuck? But always remember, quality in
writing and financial success are, as far as
I can tell, tenuously related at best. They just
occasionally accidentally walk in the same direction
as one another. Speaking of writing quality,
I'm someone who's enjoyed Edgar Rice Burroughs
stuff before. Duncan, I told you that I started
reading Tarzan. And I really liked it. I didn't
even get up to like the adventure bits. I was
still with his parents on a boat dealing with
mutineers getting abandoned in Africa. I didn't
even meet Tarzan yet. I was having a great time.
Same, Geordie. I have read the first five Tarzan
novels, I think. Yeah, up to... Oh, I can't remember.
I've got to call it Jewels of Galore then. No,
that's a coner, sorry. So like the Opal City
of Opar. Jewels of Opar. Is that the one where
he journeys into the hollow Earth in order to
rescue the Kaiser? No, that's Tarzan at the centre
of the Earth or something ridiculous. Oh, silly
me. To go alongside Tarzan and the Foreign Legion
and Tarzan and something like Tarzan and the
Ant -Men at one point. Hell yes. It goes cray
-cray. But you're right, I love Tarzan too. Have
you any read the first one then? I haven't even
finished the first one. I've read like the first
third of the first one. Finish it. The first
Tarzan, again, there is some common issues in
Tarzan which come over to Princess of Mars, namely
sensibilities. Racism. But they are such well
-written adventure stories. And I highly recommend
them, particularly those sort of first five or
six I hear very good things about. There's a
common complaint that as it goes on, it's very
clear that Burroughs is just writing because
he... makes money that way no no how could he
do this but starting out gorgeous wow i feel
like we've got to talk about princess of mars
now yeah i really am excited to do this but i'm
also a little nervous i should say that i have
read this book previously and overall i enjoyed
it But unlike Tarzan, I didn't feel compelled
to go on and read the series more extensively.
That said, I am a big fan of the comic book adaptations.
There's been an ongoing comic book since like
2010. And I really like that. One, because I
think this story has great visual flair that
lends itself well to comics. And also, it's nice
because then once the stories are being tweaked
for, say, 2010 sensibilities, I found I could
enjoy them a lot more. Geordi, am I beating about
the bush enough? I understand what you're putting
down, Dunk. I gotta say, I did not like this
book. Yeah. And I feel like... I understand you
were saying you were feeling nervous. And I feel
like I almost have to apologize because everything
really is set up for me to like it. I like Conan.
I like silly, pulpy adventures. I mentioned Journey
Into Space, which is another pulpy radio show
all about heading to Mars and having adventures
there. The Pyramids of Mars is a classic Doctor
Who adventure, which I like the radio version
of. I haven't seen it, the TV version. And yet,
I really didn't like this at all. I liked fractions
of it. There were little glimmers sometimes.
But we had to delay this episode. And that's
good, because I finished this, like, half an
hour ago. And I was really gritting my teeth
to get through the end. Oh. Oh, that is some
harsh words. But something I think, you know,
is great when we differ somewhat. And to be honest
with you... i get the sense i get the bubbling
feeling that a lot of the complaints i think
you might throw up i'm not going to stand here
and try and defend i'm going to go yeah it's
going to be a bit like one of those um a bit
like straight raises cure again you're going
to throw complaints at me i'm going to go yeah
but i just kind of like this bit i just kind
of like it anyway i get that and i definitely
understand why someone would like this book why
someone would be taken away by the adventure
because at the end of the day the thing that
put me off this book didn't have anything to
do with it offending my sensibilities i'm actually
surprised by how considering everything i know
about the author and about the main character's
previous occupation i was kind of expecting to
be more racist and i was like huh this is just
like you know it's so casual this you'd think
this was written in the 1930s instead of the
tens what what a compliment And you're quite
right. Okay, so let's dive into this. Because
I think I want to talk about these sorts of issues
regarding racism, like, up front, and then kind
of talk more about the story and the adventure
elements kind of afterwards. So, big thing that
hangs over this novel, and adaptations and modern
sensibilities, our main character, he is an American
Civil War veteran. A veteran, you say? What side
do you reckon he represents? Uh, well, he's a
good guy, so presumably he fought on the side
of the good guys, right? Well, I wanted to make
a comment or a joke then, but that depends how
you look at it. It does not. There's a pretty
definitive answer. I know who the bad guys in
the Civil War were, and I hope there's not too
much confusion in the listeners of our podcast.
If there are... And I have met real life people
who said to me in person that the Civil War had
nothing to do with slavery. You're a fucking
idiot. And don't listen to my podcast, but also
give us five stars before you don't let the door
hit you on the way out. Yes. So John Carter is
a former Confederate soldier. Now, I can only
speak for how this subject matter is broached
in Britain. In Britain's education system, it's
very clearly taught. And also anyone who kind
of thinks things like slavery are wrong, which
I do. I do think it's wrong. Thank you, Duncan.
These are the bad guys. These are definitely
the bad guys in the conflict. And it's very confusing
why you would set him up as your hero. What really
confused me is I did a bit of background. So
Burr's father was a Civil War veteran. Sure.
What side do you reckon he fought on? From the
way you're framing this, I'm assuming that he
fought for the Union, the North. Yes, he did.
Yeah. So confusing. Well, it goes to show, I
mean, for one thing, we should bear in mind is
that obviously Burroughs is writing for the sake
of telling an exciting and compelling story.
So it makes some sense that he would lean into
this. a historical nostalgia for the American
South because it appeals to people. There's a
very, very deliberate, a deliberate propaganda
attempt after the war to re -contextualize the
Southern War as a, we know it's to be anything
except about the right of slaveholders to keep
slaves, even though that was, I can't, it has
to come to this enough. It's just a historical
to say otherwise. That's why the war happened.
to make it into a heroic struggle. You get Gone
with the Wind, you get plenty of these stories
where former Confederates get to be these plucky
renegade heroes. This happens a lot in Westerns.
But over time, what you notice is the former
soldiers of the Confederate states, they keep
showing up. There's a YouTube video out there
about the weirdly large number of former Confederate
soldier vampires there are in fiction. What you
notice is that these are decidedly anti -heroes.
These are people who have done things wrong in
the past and maybe want to do better. The main
character in The Searchers, for example. is a
former confederate soldier and that's a bad thing
like the movie is aware that this is a dark mark
against his soul the rest of the movie is about
just how bad is this guy ethan that's his name
i've got it and it's something that kind of adaptations
have often tried to kind of wrestle with or smooth
off talking about the comic book version i reread
the opening of that comic and geordie it is really
painful how they try and like I don't know, make
this more palatable. And they genuinely write
in a scene at the start of the story where John
Carter gets into a bar fight with ex -Union soldiers.
And they point to him and call him out for basically
fighting for slavery. And John Carter genuinely
has a line where he's like, well, I don't know
nothing about that. But when Virginia calls me
to fight, I answer the call. And I'm like, oh,
wow. That's disgusting. And what? What is relevant
there is the valorization of his Southern identity.
Now, I'm not going to go out and say that, you
know, taking pride in being from the American
South is automatically like a racist dog whistle.
There are some people who would use it that way.
But I lived in North Carolina for a time. I met
a lot of really good North Carolinians who had
pride in being from North Carolina. I'm not going
to be someone who paints with a brush to say
that that's wrong to have pride in being a Southerner.
However, the way in which this is framed in the
story is as though being from Virginia is like
being an Arthurian knight. I think that's one
comparison to make. I hadn't thought about it
that way myself, but you're right. It's sort
of given this sense of, like, lost glory. Exactly.
There's an important word. in American culture,
which is Antebellum. I'm explaining this because
Americans don't need this explained, but we are
a mostly British podcast, so I will say so. Antebellum
means before the war period, and it is a great
deal of nostalgia in American literature and
American culture for this period as a halcyon
days. Essentially, before things got complicated.
Because guess what? Things are a lot simpler
when you get to have an underclass of people
from a different race who just have to do as
you're told. I mean, yikes. I mean, obviously,
it's not like I'm trying to, I'm going to shy
away from my own national history. Britain, lots
of bad things there. But I think it's important
that you don't have to be actively proud of those
dark bits. I think what comes across more confusing.
Yeah. And obviously there's loads of comparisons
to that. I work in a school, and today I was
doing exam supervision. That's when you have
students who have two clashing exams, and in
between those exams they need to be sequestered
so they don't interact with other students who've
already completed the exam. And whilst this was
happening, I was listening to a couple of students
in the room. have a fiery but completely anemic
debate about whether England has culture. One
person was fierily arguing that England has no
culture, and one person was fierily but very
incompetently arguing that yes, it does. And
the struggle they were coming up with was the
one person who was defending the idea that England
has culture, which obviously it does, they felt
too uncomfortable to actually stand behind the
idea that england has positive traits that you
can be culturally proud of because for some reason
that would be like that would be offensive that
would be wrong that would be jingoistic okay
um firstly i do have deep nostalgia for being
able to debate when i was younger and i used
to think i used to be fiery in debates what happened
and i was like you got smart enough not to open
your mouth until you knew what you were saying
i was like oh yeah that's what helps me back
these days but i think it's important to recognize
that every culture is a bit complicated and everyone
has mixes of good and bad And it's just OK to
exemplify these are the traits that I think are
positive. And because of that, I'm going to leave
my life in a way to aspire to the positive traits
and go, yeah, historically, people from the same
geographical area as me did some bad things.
They were bad for that. All that is to say. Sorry,
don't go ahead. And I think what's really kind
of interesting, as I said, we're getting to the
30 minute mark in this episode. It's so weird
because there's so much connotation and so much
loading that I feel like I need to unpick with
this. Despite the fact that as soon as John goes
off to Mars... Not really relevant. Or really
touched on. Yes, exactly. He's removed from the
complicatedness of living in a world where he
has to pick between... you know, sides that the
reader actually has to relate to. It's significant
to me that when we introduced to him in the story,
he's not in the East. He's not in the areas that
people were fighting over. He's gone out West.
That's a classic thing you see Confederate veterans
doing in fiction about the post -Civil War period.
And what's his first interactions with? It's...
But it's interactions with one of a white guy
and then being attacked by Apaches. He's chased
off. They are shown in the exact way you would
expect Native Americans to be depicted in this
time period. It's extremely dehumanized. He is
sort of killed, but he's not really. He turns
into a ghost. He's teleported to Mars. And now
he gets to be in a new Civil War. which he gets
to hash out in the fantasy of what if civil war
could have been could have been ended by one
guy being really really good at jumping I was
wondering when you were building to that. I was
like, being really, really good at fighting,
being really, really strong. Yeah, no, you're
right. Being really, really good at jumping.
He is at it like Frogger, like the early Superman
that he is. And I can see why this appealed,
why this solved. Let's take something really
complicated. And now let's just have a heroic
fantasy where we do Civil War Part 2, except
everyone's completely alien colours. Oh yeah,
the reds and the greens. So it's less complicated.
Let's give a brief overview. Let's give a brief
overview of what is the rest of the story about.
We've introduced John Carter. We've introduced
his entire personality, which is that he's from
Virginia and he's really happy about that. And
let's actually say, what is it actually about?
Because... I really can't believe how much is
crammed into this book. In one way, you could
say, well, this is great. Classic pulpy stuff.
It goes from adventure to adventure to adventure.
That's good, right? To me, it's more like when
you're not used to a new car and it's kind of
herky -jerky. It's like, adventure and stop.
Adventure and stop. Adventure and stop. Well,
there's some intense noises there. I hope you're
all right. I'm okay. Yes, it is. A log is crammed
in. So, to give a very quick overview, when John
Carter first arrives on Mars, the first interaction
he has is with the Thark tribe of Green Martians.
These guys are big. Thark. Oh, Duncan, what's
your language? One of many tribes on the planet
of the Green Martian type. These guys are big.
They are multi -armed. They've got tusks. They
are the orcs from Warcraft, except with some
extra limbs. Just through and through. Orcs from
Warcraft are tharks with limbs removed. You get
the influence there. They're all about war. They're
all about fighting. So John Carter fits right
in because he's super strong. And they're like,
come. He meets his local friend, a guy called
Tars Tarkas, who he sort of has this... I'm starting
to do a comparison. It's like the Eternal Champion
from Moorcock. He's his companion. Like, he's
the buddy. He's going to explain things a bit.
They're both warriors. They see eye to eye. Yeah,
this character serves to give us a very roguish
compatriot. So this is someone who, by like human
metrics and morality, would be completely abominable.
But in a fantastical fun space, someone who's
basically like addicted to war or an honorable
contract or combat, is someone who's kind of
fun to have as a sidekick or potential evil villain
who can be redeemed. And I actually think Tars...
I've got this right. I've literally just said
it. Tars Tarkas is fun if he's not particularly
deep. Like, he's fine for what he does. I wasn't
aware that he really had a personality. He is
used, in a way, in the novel. He's a good chess
piece, right? To keep going the flyover, then
we basically get all these sort of... mini kind
of adventures. There's a Colosseum -esque scene.
So boring. There's a bit of cultural integration.
And there's basically a bit of like he kills
a guy and then he takes on everything he had.
Element Dune -esque. A little inspiration there.
Did you, Frank Herbert? Did you like this? That's
true, yeah. This goes on until he bumps into
Dejah Thoris. Who has been captured by the greens.
And she is the princess of Mars. And she is beautiful.
And. I'm not sure what other traits. Boris gave
her other than being beautiful. Probably did.
She's in a lot of comic books. She's been characterised.
After the fact as like. A very feisty warrior
swordswoman. In the first book. Not so much.
That does not come across. When you described
her in a previous episode, when you were reading
the comic book, to say she's like a sword and
sorcery kind of character, I really expected
her to be more than just this incredibly meek
little kitten, which is what she is in this book.
Dejah Forrest, again, Sans personality. She is
the princess in the tower. She is... I don't
need to explain a single thing about her character.
She's... duty bound and she's like oh no i must
do this for my people uh i cannot be with you
john carter despite how handsome and lovely you
are because my people need me to blah blah blah
blah blah writing female characters is not this
dude's strong point writing male characters isn't
really a strong point actually either but going
on from this point we essentially get a rescue
attempt to free deja thoris and return her to
her people and then some weird politicking comes
up there's this other city state of like red
martians called zodanga who are enemies of yeah
of the princess of mars city state which is helium
they fight back and forth a bit John Carter wins.
He beats Onganga. Then, literally, we speed through.
I'm sorry, it might sound like I'm going fast.
This is the novel. I feel like I've just got
to get it all out. Then he beats those people.
And the Judge of Thought is just like, I can
be with you here. Let us be together as sexy
friends. Then she lays an egg for him. And then...
Yeah. There's a... And then... Disaster. So Mars
is a dying world and they have these like...
Duncan? Yes? You missed out on a very important
detail. You talked about how it really whizzes
by fast because ten years pass. Honestly... In
a chapter. Yep. He has ten years of fun times
together. I assumed, Duncan, when I read this
bit, I was like, okay, okay, I get it. This is
supposed to be like an open and shut story. It
begins, it ends, that's it. Then the character
is very popular, and then he would use this 10
-year period to have more adventures on Mars.
Okay, so we know that John Carter arrives, he
has adventures, he marries DJ Forrest, and then
they have 10 years of adventures together, and
then the planet dies, and he goes home. Weirdly
not the case. Because what I assume is those
10 years would be used to be like, ah, the further
adventures of John Carter. What was he up to
in the meantime? No, not the thing. Some comic
books do do that. There's quite a few that are
set in that mid -call era. But most of the stories
push forward because John Carter's son isn't
a character in this first book, but he is in
later stories. So... Oh, yeah, there are a few
comics that also fill in the gap for, again,
100 years later. Do you know what? I've only
just said that for the first time. The comic
book series that I love so much was written 100
years after the novel. That's crazy time. Which
makes sense because that's when it's entered
the public domain, right? That does, mate. I
think we'd have done it a little bit earlier,
but not by much, maybe 15 years earlier. I think
there was 85 years on these. It's a bit weird.
Fingers crossed, guys, by the way. Tracking what
goes into the public domain is so much fun. We're
nearly there with Conan. We're nearly there.
Well, it's already public domain in Europe. Oh,
yeah. Because we have sensible laws. I was meant
to mention this at the very beginning of the
episode, by the way. I did read something else
which wasn't mentioned. Do you know what? I'm
just going to drop it in here. Oh? I read a European...
out of copyright comic book starring the characters
bailet and valeria from the conan universe as
like a um a dual team whatever you call that
okay duo dynamic duo and it was amazingly overwritten
and underwritten and appallingly bad and fabulously
stupid just incredible only ran for like five
issues It is not getting a follow -up despite
ending on a cliffhanger. It has Baylet getting
resurrected from when she dies at the end of
the Conan stories. Oh, no. Then, instead of,
like, any thoughts about Conan, she basically
is angry that she's been brought back from the
dead and is trying to find the sorcerer or whatever
that did it. And in the first story, she literally
just walks into a tavern and is like, right,
I want to have sex with the most vigorous man
here. who's up for it it is atrocious followed
by just it is so over sexualized at the same
time not sexy at all and it's like the plot has
no thought into it yet every page is crammed
full of speech bubbles i'm like how have you
got so much dialogue into this sword and sorcery
tale that achieves next to nothing duncan can
i make a humble request of you Go ahead. Please
do not pick this comic book series for a future
episode, no matter how much I annoy you at any
point. Don't worry, Geordie. I've got way more
painful stuff stored in the backlog for that.
But yes, back to Princess of Mars. And yes, and
then the book ends. The atmospheric factories
that produce air for Mars. Mars is a dying planet,
remember. The oceans have dried up. The canals
are starting to go dry. Air is running out. They
start to malfunction and John Carter, just about,
everyone's getting dizzy, he's running to the
factory, he uses his weird psychic ability he
got taught earlier, he opens the doors, he's
just got to get inside and like pull the lever
to save the planet. But then he falls unconscious
in the doorway. He never makes it. And then he
opens his eyes, back in a cave on Earth, staring
up at a red planet. The end? It would be so emotionally
moving if I cared about any of these characters.
I say the end. There is actually a framing narrative
in this book of, I think it's meant to be Burroughs
talking about his fictional Uncle Jack, who's
meant to be John Carter. Yes! I really like that.
Yes, it is like he is telling us the story from
the diary, like the personal autobiography that
his uncle left behind. It's very, it's very,
it's bold. I like that move. I think it's really
interesting. I think he does something kind of
similar in Tarzan, doesn't he? The diary entries.
That's definitely something that comes up in
Tarzan a lot. is we're hearing about what happened
in the past to a character i don't think he placed
himself as right yes i remember i remember because
tarzan has a famous opening line that's like
uh i couldn't believe how incredible this story
is if i had not heard it from like a less i wouldn't
have believed how crazy the story is if i heard
it from like a less reliable source something
like that it's like the author the writer of
Tarzan is interviewing someone who met Tarzan
at a certain point and is relaying his adventures
through like a series of like you know like a
game of telephone yes and just like telephone
they just get exaggerated every single time they
get retold what I will say is I do like this
in this framing device and I particularly feel
like if you read this in the context of like
a pulp magazine this would have worked this yummed
this up really fun and we basically find out
from this narrative that john carter has built
himself like a custom tomb that he's going to
go and lie in and like this is how he hopes to
ghost himself back to mars again not explain
the details in fact if you watch the disney movie
they basically give him like a magical amulet
that he finds in the cave and that's just how
it happened this is just out of nowhere so that's
the plot might as well just rub a genie's lamp
you know Might as well. Or just a literal portal.
Or anything, actually. Other than just falling
unconscious and having an out -of -body experience.
It almost makes you think, was this all just
a hallucination of John's? Did he just hit his
head on a rock and go, I imagined it was the
Civil War, but I was a hero and this really hot
woman just wanted to be with me. It's like, sure
thing, John. Calm down. Duncan. Can I ask you,
what about this story do you find compelling
and exciting, such that you like it? Because
we've ragged on it a lot, but I really want to
hear what you like. Okay, I like the man that
can jump a tall building in a single bound, that
has super strength, that has laser pistols and
a sword. And it's hard to pin down individual
scenes. I do think the final fighter, like Zongdanga,
is really fun. I like just on the weird and wonderful
elements of the world. Like, I know I harped
on sort of negatively about the flying machines,
but, you know, they're still cool. I like this
idea of these things with, like, these great
sails that, like, spread out, but, like, facing
the ground to catch the rays as uplift. I like
hearing about some of these Martian cultures.
I enjoy the fact that the greens, like, lay all
their eggs in, like, a hatchery, like, bury them
in the ground, and then they come and, like,
dig them up later. I enjoyed that there were
a few scenes that I enjoyed that actually I thought
did have a little bit more, I don't know what
to put the phrase, tender loving care. I enjoyed
the scenes with the character of Sola, who's
the daughter of Tars Tarkas. She teaches him
the language of Barsoom. Oh, Mars is called Barsoom
on their planet. Isn't it called Barsoom? Yes,
you're right, it is Barsoom. It's Barsoomium
is the language. um there was some cool you know
i liked a little bit of intrigue about her history
of her parents i that was okay that felt like
a sort of right out of like a dramatic victorian
story where like it's just like and now time
for a little a little mini story within a story
i always felt that have you ever read uh northanger
abbey by jane austen i have not there's just
a mini bit in that where someone's like And they're
in a carriage and someone's like, I'm now going
to tell you a ghost story. And then you literally
get a chapter that's basically just a mini ghost
story. Like, she wrote a short story. Just because
Jane Austen had an idea. Yeah, I know. It's like,
I need to just cram this in somewhere. Best chapter
in the book. But anyway. We can do that for Halloween.
Oh, I love that. Jane Austen for Halloween. What
an off -focus thing to be. So I enjoy... Sorry,
so I enjoy that and I generally like a bit of
the world and culture building. We get reference
to Issus and the river Iss in this world. Very
light, but I like seeing how this fits together
and I do genuinely like the general atmosphere
of Mars as this dying planet that all these great
civilizations are coming to an end and there's
nothing they can really do to stop it. And even
in its kind of death throes, they're all still
just fighting each other. So I like the vibe.
But I will be honest with you, Geordi, I think
I wouldn't have liked this as much if I wasn't
already a fan through comic books. So I didn't
have as clear visuals. And maybe because I know
a little bit more about the world building outside
this first novel, then I could kind of like fill
in the gaps slightly. But those are the things
I like. I do think this is an interesting world
to explore. And I like a Superman. Talking of
Superman, John Carter's Superman before Superman.
Sure, yeah, that's true. You know, he is this
larger -than -life, honourable, impossibly strong
character with a very rigid moral code. He rescues
damsels and distresses. That's true. That's a
lot of Superman energy all in one place. He literally
goes to a planet that has weaker gravity than
the one he's meant for, so gets super jump and
super strength. Like, that is Superman. That's
true. That's true. That's the exact concept.
And this was written... What do you think? What's
that? Superman was 1930? 1935? Ish? Early 1930s,
I think. So, we're literally... This is 18 years
before Superman. So, the types of people who
wrote Superman would have grown up on John Carter.
That's true. Yeah, that's worth considering.
Duncan, what I feel like I need to say now is
you mentioned world building and stuff. And I
think that's probably the thing I dislike the
most about this story. Because I really didn't
like the way information was relayed to us. I
found this book extremely tiresome because it
felt like... Anytime there was going to be an
adventure, it was interrupted by a prelude of
an extremely vivid and lengthy description of
how do the planes fly? How do the guns work?
How does their language work? How do the telepathy
interact with their spoken language? How are
babies made? Stuff like that. And what I think
really separates this, because we're talking,
we're not even talking, pre -Tolkien, where it
completely reinvents the idea of having extremely
vivid and deep world histories. We're talking
pre -Howard. And the best thing, the best thing
about world building in something like Robert
E. Howard is he will say anything. He'll just
say he was a Bosonian archer. He'll just say
he was a giant from Hyperborea. And then he shuts
up. He doesn't say a single damn thing. And he
lets you decide how legitimately is this guy
a giant from Hybora? Is he like six foot two
and he's a giant? Is he six foot eleven and a
giant? Is he 13 feet tall? You get to make that
decision. You get to make it as exciting as you
want to. It sort of gets across the point of
how much of a giant is he? Enough of a giant
that our main character looks at him and goes,
wow, he's a giant. That's all that matters. Exactly.
That's what matters. We get to have a sense that
there's this big, wide, magical world and we
decide how magical is it. Even something like
the Tower of the Elephant, which the big culmination
of the story is a lecture on personal history
by an alien. Even that is full of great mysteries
because it's delivered to us in a monologue.
It's not delivered to us by narration where it's
simply someone like taking almost research notes
on the natural history of a planet. It's someone
saying, I'm going to tell you all about my personal
suffering. And allow you to make conjecture about
how strange a being I am. Where am I from? What
are my people like? Am I magic or simply a being
of high technology? And I feel quite legitimately
a bit of a missed opportunity there. Particularly
when Jon is a fish out of water. And we have
characters like Dejah Thoris, Tars Harkus and
Sola. Who are all in positions to sort of give...
this information to John I wish that had been
used more because then you can just throw in
little bits of characterization like if Tars
Tarkas is going to sit down and talk to John
about the guns then he can just throw in like
you know this it's like this and I when I first
went out hunting with my father you can kind
of weave it in a way that feels less dumpy Yeah,
or have John be given a gun in a firefight, and
then he has to figure out how to use the gun
in the middle of the firefight. Like, maybe he
fires one shot, goes to reload, and then, like,
accidentally almost blows his head off because
he didn't realise that it had not merely, like,
a second round in the chamber, but another 199
rounds in the chamber. I can see how that would
add a lot of fun. Do you know, Geordi, can I
also just say, you mentioned... Tower of the
Elephant. Have I told you that I've read the
newest Conan comic? Not the newest, newest. From
Titan. The Conan and Age Unconquered. I... Duncan,
to be quite honest, I struggle to keep up sometimes.
Fair enough. Don't worry about it. Moving back.
No, no, no. Tell me. Tell me. Well, it's a story.
It's a Conan story. As they all are that I read.
Where Conan goes back in time to visit King Cole.
When we do this time jump, this is like the third
time it's ever happened in comics. Cole, Shadow
Kingdom, listen to the episode, it's great. He
runs into the elephant guy, but like 100 ,000
years earlier? In the Therian age. And the elephant
guy's just like, what happened to you? I remember
you from when we first met. And Conan's like,
but that shouldn't work because you were previously
living life. And he's like, ah. Timey -wimey,
doesn't matter to me. Yes, that sounds good.
Okay, I was against this at first, but that sounds
pretty good. I hope you enjoy the comic. Okay,
so I've explained why I found a lot of aspects
of this book quite dry. At the end of the day,
you made a very good point at the start. This
book is so influential and so early in the world
of fantasy that a lot of the stuff in it feels
quite rote. I'm not compelled by the relationship
between... John Carter and J .J. Thoris because
I've seen much better versions of much more interesting,
much feistier princesses meet up with much more
interesting, less one -note rogue anti -heroes.
I'm not as impressed by the... The idea is being
put forward by the sci -fi aspects of the world
because I've seen those ideas explored and extrapolated
upon later. I'm not convinced or persuaded by
the racial politics of the book because it exists
in a extremely alien world to me of being from
the early 20th century where it's just fine to
have a race of red people and a race of... green
people, and oh, why can't they get along if only
there was a man who jumps good to unite them?
Just want to throw out there. You know, I said
all that, but actually I just realised that the
racial politics of that are at least as up -to
-date and, you know, cogent as children of Anakin
anguish. Wow. I mean, quite possibly. At least
I do actually have a bit of respect for Burroughs.
If nothing does this well, But to approach the
matter of race and go, right, I'm not going to
write full on about this matter, but let's just
recast it. Let's take a real world issue, put
it in a sci -fi setting so you can explore it
with a bit more of a blunted edge. Conceptually...
Sure, you're talking about Star Trek. Yeah, exactly.
It's the same ideas of transposing our current
or social issues to a sci -fi setting. to help
with the exploration and often ease the exploration.
Not that Brothers does it amazingly, but it's
the same seed. You're like, yes, there's something
here that will one day blossom. Yes, exactly.
So you're talking about the same ideas that are
going to be explored in Star Trek in the 1960s
of doing, oh, this is the planet of the black
and white people as opposed to the white and
black people. and to lampoon the idea of racism.
But in this book, the problem is that it's nowhere
near as socially competent as that, because the
big thing that happens is that the Green Martians
have no ideas of love, trust, and friendship.
They exist only to fight and kill. Whereas the
Red Martians are more enlightened. And they do
believe in love and friendship. And what would
you guess? Even though they're both Martians.
Only the Red Martians. Which includes Dejah Thoris
by the way. I don't think we made that clear
earlier. They're referred to as humans. So we
have humans and we have non -humans. And the
non -humans act as savage. If somewhat noble.
With a sense of primeval honour. And what would
you guess? They start to see things the same
way as John Carter, who has more in common with
the Red Martians, because what this is actually
about is not about a divided people who need
to come to peace. It's about a savage race of
people who need to be tamed with the ideas of
the other sect. This is about taming the West.
This is about Native Americans. This is about...
This is about indoctrinating Indian children
into being good, moral, white -adjacent Americans.
Now, Geordie, I'm not going to stand and disagree
with you, but I hadn't picked up on any of that
because I'm not as well -educated, and now I'm
sitting here going, oh dear God, Duncan, what
have you enjoyed? Why didn't you see this? Now,
here's the thing, Duncan. Here's another way
I could put this. I mentioned Star Trek. What
if the Green Martians aren't Indian Americans?
What if they aren't Native Americans? What if
they aren't the Apache who are trying to kill
John Connor at the start of a story? What if
instead they're Klingon? Because Klingon are
a warrior country who have a long sense of honour.
And Klingon aren't really supposed to stand in
for a particular race, at least not by the 80s
and 90s. They're supposed to be a distinct people
with their own culture. And the interesting thing
about that is that when you get to something
like Deep Space Nine, you just like seeing the
Klingons doing their own cultural stuff. It respects
the fact that they're different. And it doesn't
judge them for their backwards ideas where violence
rules. It says this is a different way of doing
things. They have their own sense of right and
wrong. They aren't necessarily evil because of
it. Who are we to judge them? Perhaps in the
future books of John Carter of Mars, it takes
a more tolerant, enlightened and accepting look
at the green Martians. I think that would be
a book I would enjoy more because it is fun to
follow characters like honourable warriors. There's
a reason why The Noble Savage keeps showing up
in fiction because there's a strong appeal to
it. It speaks to something inside us. If only
it wasn't so racist, it would be good, wholesome
fun. Um, yes. that is that is a really good kind
of point for and i'm really glad that you did
do that second comparison because one it allows
me to keep enjoying what i enjoy without feeling
too bad and i really did like how you talk about
you know this could be something to explore later
now just so you're aware um that that doesn't
happen balls instead what burrows does is um
he uh he i'm gonna call i'm gonna say jump the
shark although it's about 50 years too early
for that comparison when he brings in yellow
martians oh come on who live at the north pole
oh but don't worry though it then turns out there's
a secret race of um of white martians who have
been pulling the strings oh no with a vast ancient
empire of more sophisticated cities and advanced
technology and they're all white skinned with
blonde hair oh no oh no but then then it's revealed
that these aren't the original but actually the
first born martians were actually the black martians
who inhabited the moon of mars and were then
the first to come to the planet And things get
really weird later on. Duncan, I wish you had
not told me any of that. I feel like you have
knocked a significant amount of quality out of
my life. The overall goodness of my life has
definitely dropped like 2 % after learning that.
And I hope it gets better, but there's a possibility
it never will. I'm sorry. And I do want to say,
I think there is... some pulpy fun to be mined
out of John Carter. It is sort of an origin point
for so much. I don't want to feel like I'm bashing
people who have read the whole series and enjoy
it. I want you to know, everything I've just
spoken about, I haven't actually read the original
series. Again, I've read the whole comic book,
which adapts a lot of these stories. So... I
can't speak to the quality there. And I've read
more Burroughs. I've read Tarzan. I enjoy his
writing. And this was his first novel. And if
they get better in the more pulpy adventure way,
I can still see why someone could definitely
get enjoyment out of that. Oh my goodness. There
is a lot that if you keep it at the most surface
level, I see how you could slide by and enjoy
and just go, they're just Martians. They're just
different. He's just picked random colours. I'm
sure they don't mean anything. Look, there are
blue ones over there. The fact that some are
yellow, some are black and some are white means
nothing. Maybe. Who knows? Duncan. I think some
people do though. Duncan, there was a period
of time. In the 1990s, where one of the main
antagonists that the Justice League was fighting
in DC Comics were the White Martians, who were
the oppressed underclass on Mars, discriminated
against by the Green Martians who stood atop.
And the White Martians were savage and evil and
had to be confronted by the heroes like Wonder
Woman and Superman. And that has always bemused
me. that we got to a point in the 1990s where
we were like, all right, yes, the oppressed underclass
are evil and they must be stopped by the forces
of law. Get them, Superman. Kill those white
Martians. It can't be racist because the white
ones are the underclass. Again, what am I trying
to say? The concept of taking... contemporary
race issues and exploring them in an alien setting
is a good idea. It has worked many times. What's
done here is... It has failed many times as well.
Yes. And this is a bit of a failure. I think
we've struck several things on the head here.
I think we've talked about the point that maybe
this... Well, Princess of Mars, and I don't know
where the series goes... This first book isn't
the most rip -roaring piece of pulp you probably
will have ever read. And in fact, Bower's next
novel, Tarzan of the Apes, is miles better in
terms of just how it is written. I think we've
also hit something in terms of the fact that,
Geordi, one of your biggest complaints was about
world building. And there's something we've learnt
time and time again whenever we seem to really
hard conflict on a novel. It's because I just
have a much bigger tolerance for exposition dumps.
and like, heeds our law. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's
true. And I think that's just who we are as people.
It's true. I almost don't notice that. I think
this book just could have been more exciting.
You know, like, I remember when I was a kid,
I think I was in the cinema to see How to Train
Your Dragon 1. I think this might line up with
the timeline. And I saw the trailer for John
Carter of Mars. And the big centerpiece of this
trailer was him in a gladiatorial arena. And
a gigantic beast was charging him. And he had
a big rock and a chain. He was swinging around
and yelling to fight this monster. So when I'm
reading this book, I'm like, okay, let's see
that. Let's see him fight a big monster in a
big gladiatorial arena. Let's go crazy. The closest
we come to that, there is a scene where he fights
a big Martian ape. And that's good fun. That
feels like something out of Tarzan. That feels
like something out of Conan. There is a gladiatorial
fight in this book. And it's really foreshadowed.
And it's astoundingly boring. There's always
a question I wonder. is this like a hangover
the fact that it was turned into a novel later
but you know without the exposition and i was
thinking this through as i was reading it and
i go no these fight scenes don't work in any
context i mentioned my favorite was the one the
one at the end which is more of like a big battle
i think that got it up but individual one -on
-one fights they're just not the most fun the
way they're described i think part of it is the
fact that because john carter gets so op compared
to anything in mars you just he never has like
a struggle you know he's never gripping about
he's never using his full weight to barely bring
this beast to bay the one time he just kind of
flies through the only time he the only way edgar
burris edgar is burris seems to be able to show
that a fight is hard is to say and we fought
for an hour an hour how you didn't get tired
What do you mean you fought for an hour? Were
you taking breaks? It's like a boxing match.
You went for three minutes and you had a minute
out. What happened? What were you doing for that
hour? Are you just exchanging, like, blows? Or
are you running about in circles? The scene in
question where I talk about the Coliseum, it's
like that. He says, like... And they sent many
men against me. And all of them fell. And then
they told me I had to fight my new best friend.
And we pretended to fight for an hour. And then
when I sensed the crowd was getting restless,
I let them stab me between my belly and my arm.
And I trapped the blade there. And then they
fell down and pretended to be dead. And they
didn't check. And then I walked out. I just left
the Coliseum. Spartacus really should have thought
of that one. I love that no one was on clean
-up duty. What do we do with the bodies? Leave
them there. Come on. Ah, Geordi, I mean, do you
have anything else you'd like to add on Princess
of Mars? I have a question. Go ahead. How's the
movie? That's a good question. Thank you. Thank
you for asking. So Jean -Claude's with a... That's
the entire title. It was a bit of a flop. In
fact, it was one of the biggest flops in cinematic
history when it first came out. Watching it now,
I don't think it's all about the movie. I don't
think it's necessarily... It's not a terribly
bad movie. In fact, I think it does a decent
job, particularly in visuals, of capturing the
world and adventure. What it is... Sorry, one
sec. Duncan's dying. The atmosphere is running
out in his house. He needs to find the special
lever to pull so he doesn't die and get sent
back to his home planet. Right, where was I?
The thing about the film is, it is like 30 minutes,
45, too long. The framing narrative in the novel,
that probably could have been just wholesale
cut, goes on and on and on. There is so much
John Carter on Earth, but not like... character
building just sort of not burrows interacting
with his uncle and people are after him and there's
this conspiracy and more people on earth might
know about mars and it just could have all been
cut we just literally went like the book cave
mars adventure well would have been much better
but overall i think it's an okay film like you
know you got disney plus They're a worse place
to kill an evening. I think it adapts the first
book pretty darn well in terms of overall story.
If you're a fan of the book, you'll like the
film. What if I'm not a fan of the book, Duncan?
Well, you might like the film a bit more. I still
can't bring myself to say that I deeply dislike
Princess of Mars. But I am standing here now,
Geordie, having recommended it to you and tried
it on you, I'm like, oh. Maybe I shouldn't go
around recommending this to people. What's your
take, by the way? Princess of Mars. Did you like
it? Do you recommend it? We know the answer to
one. I didn't like it and I don't recommend it.
I don't think there's a lot to actually gain
out of reading this one. Because, you know, this
should be... more serialized, more pulpy. I know
it was originally serialized. This is the wrong
format to read this in. I mentioned earlier this
year, Duncan, that I had read a short story called
The Son of the White Wolf. I was looking for
Michael Moorcock's Son of the White Wolf, not
The Son of the White Wolf. No, sorry. White Wolf's
Son by Michael Moorcock. And he discovered, hey,
A Robert E. Howard story I'd never heard of before.
It introduced me to new characters in a new setting
I'd never seen before. It was very racist. Much
more so even than this book. But I still had
a much better time. Because guess what? It was
a little package deal. I read through it in 45
minutes. I got the full experience and was like,
okay, I feel like... I learned something new
about an author I like. I feel like I learned
something new and interesting about this stage
of literary history. I feel like that was worth
experiencing. I would recommend that to fans
of pulp fiction. I can't say the same for this,
because there's no point in this story where
I would say, read this bit, read this collection
of chapters, and you will learn something about
the place that fantasy has come from. It will
be worth your time. I just don't think that exists
here. Curious. I think I disagree. I do like
it a bit more from you, but I still wouldn't
recommend Princes of Mars purely on an enjoyment
factor. I would recommend it on a historical
context factor I think it is really nice to see
an early example of science fantasy I think when
you can read it and see where things go connections
to Star Trek connections to superheroes and just
a general characterization of alien worlds There
is something there, but you're right, it is quite
a slog for what you're getting out of it. I certainly
wouldn't recommend it on a pulpy, fun front.
Certainly, if you're interested in getting into
boroughs, definitely start with Tarzan. I would
also want to add, actually, two really other
key things. I know we spoke a lot this episode
about the sensitivities and the politics and
the racism around, you know, everything in this
book I don't think it's the most heavy -handed
thing and also it certainly comes across for
me as a oh particularly in this first book I'm
going to make that very clear it doesn't read
like Lovecraft at his most racist and it's like
egregious and against the story and horribly
unpleasant it does read more as insensitive for
the time though I don't think he's actively going
out with a negative message. True. I just think
it's a product of his times. And he certainly
does a lot better than Lovecraft, and probably
even Robert E. Howard, as you alluded to in the
story that you had. So in that way, I think,
you know, don't let that put you off. Let it
being a bit boring put you off. Go and read Tarzan.
That still has problematic issues. But at least
it's fun and exciting. And my final point. I
really want to hammer home Princess Mars. Because
I keep saying this. I've said this again and
again throughout the episode. I really like the
comic book. Warlords of Mars by Dynamite Comics.
Is a really fun read. Because it takes Princess
of Mars. And it slaps it into about four comic
issues. It's faster. It's colourful. It smooths
off some of the rougher edges a little bit. highly
highly highly recommend duncan are you aware
that there's an rpg system based off of john
carter of mars i was not aware but i'm not surprised
do you think that's something that you'd be interested
in thinking about like you think it'd be something
that you think would be fun to explore as a setting
for people to have their own adventures in that's
a very good question i think based on what i
know of the setting I think it would be quite
a hard one to do because the setting of John
Carter is very much tailored to some of John
Carter's adventures. John Carter, basically,
from the arcs I've read forward in the comics,
he finds a new civilization or a new Martian
type and has an adventure in their city. And
then the next one, he finds the next lost secret
civilization. Like I said, we basically go, ah!
there's this lost civilization of yellow martians
oh no there's a lost civilization of white martians
oh no there is a lost lost civilization of black
martians and it kind of falls through i don't
know how i would really do trying to build a
complete world like a sandbox for a barsoom campaign
probably a one -off six sessions you could do
it but i think i would struggle to really get
to the depth of this universe Would it interest
you to know that it's made by modifiers to people
who made Conan Adventures in an Age Undreamed
Of? Oh, hello. I like that. Okay, you sold it
to me. 2D20? Can we have at least four different
currencies for game mechanics? And everyone needs
to have both a physical and mental health bar.
There is a third one, actually. There's a physical
and a mental health bar. And there's also objects
health bars. And they all have a unique system
of healing where medicine heals physical wounds,
counselling heals mental wounds, and smithing
heals breakage in objects. Okay, at no point
while reading Princess and Master did I go, yes,
this is a scene where John Carter gets counselling.
Duncan, I've come to my conclusion. It sounds
like you've come to yours as well. I think I
have, and I think it's certainly come off more
negatively than I anticipated when I picked this
book. But then, as I kind of self -reflected,
I did realise I read this book for the first
time, Geordie, six years ago, and I never wanted
to read. It's not even occurred to me to read
any of the follow -ups. Whereas... I read a load
of Tarzans, and do you know what? I still think,
oh gosh, if I had the time, I would definitely
read another one. Never had this with Princess
of Mars. So, I think I knew, but I knew deep
down it was hidden behind lots of other emotions.
I'm sure that must have been troubling to come
to terms with, Duncan. A moment of silence. We're
not allowed to actually do moments of silence.
That's bad podcasting. It is, it's terrible.
Duncan! Geordie! I think we said all we can about.
A Princess of Mars and John Carter. We probably
aren't going to play that RPG. I probably will
watch the movie. Maybe I'll give a little mini
review. At the start of a future episode. We
shall see. Weirdly enough Duncan. When I saw
Thunderbolts. I never saw the Black Widow movie.
And I never saw. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
And I didn't see Captain America Brave New World.
So when I went into it. I was really going in
blind. And I'm like. I might need to go back
and watch those to understand exactly what I
just saw. Because whilst I did have a good time,
I did often feel like I was playing catch -up.
So somewhere along the way, I've got to fit in
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and squeeze
John Carter in there somewhere. All on Disney
+, mate. Well worth the subscription. When you
say that, you actually mean well worth persuading
your girlfriend to log in on your laptop so that
you can watch while she's doing yoga. Oh. Absolutely.
Do you think I went through university and ever
paid for my own Netflix? Not in the good old
days. It's a very complicated arrangement in
my household because I use my housemate's Netflix.
Everyone's using my Amazon Prime and then I'm
using my girlfriend's Disney Plus. Really, ****
is letting the team down. Actually, I don't know
if I should say her name because I haven't asked
her if I could talk about her on the podcast.
Really, I think, redacted. is letting the team
down by not contributing enough streaming services.
She could at least give us Paramount Plus. Oh,
Apple TV, mate. You've got to get on the Foundation
TV show. I will not do that. It looks shit. Moving
on. Moving on. If I want to watch Apple TV and
forget, hey, forget Foundation. Duncan, have
you seen For All Mankind? No. Do you know what?
I've been trying to get my girlfriend to watch
with me. The Expanse TV show. Now that I've read
all the books that cover the TV show, I'm like,
right, I want to jump into this. I don't know
about that, but Duncan, you as an engineer, you
as a fan of science fiction, for the love of
God, you have to watch Forumankind. It's amazing.
It's not even remotely within the bandwidth of
this TV show. You can't persuade me that it's
fantasy. So let's move on to something that is
more relevant, but we are not going to drop Forumankind.
You should watch it. Duncan. Geordi. You chose
John Carter of Mars, a princess of Mars, warlords
of Mars, under the moons of Mars. It's in there
somewhere. But now it's my turn to pick the book
we're reading for next time. What are you going
to do, Geordi? I've gone back. This is like,
I think, other than our Bram Stoker, our most
historic book we've ever touched. Are we going
contemporary? Are we going somewhere in the middle?
What's it going to be? We are going somewhere
in the middle. And actually, we're going to a
place that I haven't often strayed. I don't know
if I've ever brought us a book from this era.
I feel like this has been more your wheelhouse
up to now. And to be quite frank, I don't really
know what I'm bringing to the table here. This
was something that I saw mentioned online. I
looked into it. It sounded a little interesting,
but I really have no idea what it's about. But
it just was like, hey, we haven't really done
something like this from this era before. Interesting.
I'm curiously optimistic. By the way, I think
Midway is actually something ridiculous like
1968 at this point. Time is weird. Yeah, yeah,
we really have stretched ourselves out. Actually,
you know what? It would be really interesting
to know what the mean, median, and mode average
is for when we choose to read books. I could
find that out. I have a spreadsheet full of all
the books we've done. I could pretty quickly
find that out. I'm going to do that. You should
do that. And if you want to see those results,
the best place will be our Instagram. Is this
fantasy podcast? Is this just fantasy podcast?
On Instagram. Best place to contact us to find
out when new episodes are released and little
extra reviews and tidbits as we go along. Also,
catch us on Blue Sky at justfantasy on Blue Sky.
And as always, our Gmail. Best place to ask us
a long, big old question that might just turn
into a bonus episode at isthisjustfantasy at
gmail .com. Isthisjustfantasypodcast at gmail
.com. Yes, you'll write that inside. It's just
a fancy podcast at gmail .com. Thank you, Geordie.
Duncan, I don't know if you've even heard of
this. Next time, we are going to be reading Sheep
Farmer's Daughter, the first part of The Deed
of Paxenarion by Elizabeth Moon. Well, the answer's
no. Okay. Secondly, 1988. 1988. Wow, you googled
that really fast. I didn't edit out a big pause
there. Yes, so we've done a couple of books from
the 1980s. I don't think I've ever introduced
a book from the 1980s. But we definitely have
not introduced a book by a female author of,
like, fantasy adventure from the 1980s. That's
a combination of sentences that I don't think
we've done so far. No, I don't think we have
even... nearly approached it. I think the only
rule in the 1980s that we properly hit, we did,
what was it, we did Dark, we did Gunslinger,
and we've done Magician. Magician, exactly. Which
are the only two that jump out to me. That's
why I feel like I want to hone in on this spot.
I think this is going to be interesting. You've
got a female sword and sorcery hero in the main
position here. She's right there on the cover.
She's like a knight fighting some weird wolves
in a river. I don't know how that happened. Let's
find out. Okay, well, I... Deeply look forward
to exploring that book with you too, Geordie.
Please, everyone, join us next time for The Sheep's
Farmer's Daughter. I'm looking forward to it.
I've been your host, Geordie Bailey. And I've
been your other host, Duncan Nicol. So long.
Bye.