WEBVTT

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This

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Just Fantasy, the podcast where every other week,

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two nerds get together to rate, read and review

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a fantasy novel. I’m your host, Geordie Bailey.

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And I’m a terrified rabbit in a dark and horrific

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world, Duncan Nicoll. That's because this week

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we are reading... Watership Down by Richard Adams.

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The film scarred my childhood, and now the book's

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come back for round two. Because Duncan, I never

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actually watched a film when I was growing up.

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I actually caught exactly like two seconds of

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it on TV as a kid. And nothing especially bad

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happened. But I think someone in the room knew

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not to keep it on. So he went, nope, and changed

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it away. That's because someone clearly cared

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for your emotional well -being at a young age.

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Which is funny because the book... Obviously,

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there is violence in it. And I was like, oh,

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this isn't really as dark as I was expecting.

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I was thinking that I was going to make... The

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joke I was planning to make was, we start off

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this year with a lot of dark fantasy. You know,

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we read The Witcher and Straight Razor's Cure.

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We read The Black Company. And the last novel

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we read was still pretty goth. But at least this

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one's just about nice fluffy bunnies. The descriptions

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aren't as graphic as perhaps someone coming off

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the film would... expect but the subject matter

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is often still quite heavy for i don't know someone

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going in for the peter rabbit vibe you know when

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when it's described in a book like uh you know

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wound watch scratched him and blood trickled

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down the back of his neck I’m like okay that's

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not really as violent as i was expecting by reputation

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But then I looked up Woundwart because I was

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trying to figure out if that was the name of

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a plant before the episode. And I just caught

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a gif of a rabbit literally ripping another one

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to shreds. And I went, oh, my God, this is horrific.

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What the hell? It is absolutely fantastic. The

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original Watership Down animated film. Just a

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classic of messed up. Was it 80s? Kids television?

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Oh my goodness. But you're right. I’m not sure

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when it came out, but it is genuinely bizarre.

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The book has a reputation of appearing to appeal

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to children, but actually being written more

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for adults. I don't know how it really translated

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to that film being made. Well, I think the first

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thing I’ll say of why the film probably got made,

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though, is the fact that this is a pretty darn

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good book, Geordie. Let's lay that one down.

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It's true. That's right. No, there's no discussion

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to be had there. There's one discussion that

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shall happen later. But I think the book really

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speaks for itself. It really just drew me in

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and it was a magical experience. This is one

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of the few times in this podcast where I’ve genuinely

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said, I don't really want this book to end. I

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just want it to keep going forever. That's such

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a lovely sentiment. Right, before we get into

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our appreciation of Watership Down, Geordie,

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have you been reading, experiencing, listening

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to anything else you want to share with us? Well,

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yes, actually. I was planning on reading this

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book at some point, but it was definitely hastened

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by the strong feeling I had about how Watership

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Down was influenced by the Second World War.

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So I’ve been reading Anthony Beaver's Stalingrad.

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Okay, Stalingrad. Enemy at the Gates. That's

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the extent of my knowledge. Is the book Enemy

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at the Gates the extent of your knowledge, or

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the film the extent of your knowledge? Oh, the

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film. Okay, so you don't know shit about Stalingrad.

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I have heard it's got a reputation for being

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horrifically historically inaccurate. Not maybe

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quite on Braveheart levels, but not far behind.

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I can't speak to that because I haven't seen

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the movie. It's a very interesting book. He has

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a lot of skill as a writer. Because this is,

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to be clarified, this is non -fiction. This is

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historical work. This is based on declassified

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Russian intelligence from the time period. And

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a very unique. So it's written in 1994. Which

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means it was written in this sweet spot of East

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and West friendliness. You know, they mention

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in the preface to the book that just a couple

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of years later, you know, this book literally

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could not have been written because those sources

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are either being hidden or being destroyed by

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Russian intelligence services. So, yeah, it's

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fascinating and it really is an artifact of a

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different time. Oh, gosh. And how was it? Well,

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I’m still reading it. I think it's very interesting.

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And it's the sort of thing that's like, if it

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was fictional, you'd be like, this is a bit repetitive.

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Because it's like, do you enjoy scenes of Russian

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and German suffering? Well, let's just repeat

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on that theme for 400 pages. I can't say it's

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right at the top of the list of some of my interests,

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but... I mean, to get kind of that historical

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insight from a very different perspective, I

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think anything World War II related that doesn't

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focus on the Western Front is kind of fascinating

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because it's not that part of the story that

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is told that often. I saw a fascinating fact

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the other day, which I was not really aware of.

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I’m sure plenty of people do know this. But in

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terms of just fatalities, the Eastern Front...

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grossly outstrips what was occurring on the western

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one and you're like let's not talk about Nili

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as much no it's um it's incredible there's this

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um it's a very it's a weird it's a very weird

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thing to call back to because it seems like a

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joke but it's not Duncan you know um you know

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Yakko's world um yeah the Warner Warner Brothers

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the and the Warner sister dot yeah yeah and the

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maniacs that's what they're called At Vienna

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Maniacs, there's a song in which one of the characters

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sings a song which includes all of the countries

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of the world, or close to all the countries of

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the world. Okay. Like kids' entertainment? Someone

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did a... There are a lot of meme edits of that

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song to be like, oh, countries... Only including

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countries that will previously belong to Britain.

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Stuff like that. Almost equally as long. One

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version of that... One version of that does that,

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but for every 100 ,000 people killed, Yakov repeats

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that country. And he says the word Russia for

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two minutes straight. Geordie, this is quite a

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sovery heavy beginning of this episode. I fear

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that when I go into what I’ve been reading and

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experiencing, I’m going to come off almost childlike

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in comparison. But wow. Go ahead, Duncan. Well,

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to contrast with what was already reading Stalingrad,

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off the back of all shit, I actually finished

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over the last two weeks a book that I’ve been

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reading for a while now and very much enjoying,

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and that is a sci -fi comedy story called We'll

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Save the Galaxy for Food by Yarksey Croshaw.

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For those that don't know, the author is a YouTuber

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game critic, and I’ve experienced him through...

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oh yeah his work in game critique does these

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sort of short punch review videos and i saw he

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had a book on audible and i had a credit and

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i thought yeah why not i actually quite like

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the sound of his voice and he does the audio

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uh recording for it and yeah i thought it was

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actually a really decent funny time does he like

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in his youtube videos speak extremely fast and

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obnoxiously he does tone that down it is a similar

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kind of style of comedy It's a lot of sarcastic

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comments, a lot of characters thinking one thing,

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saying another. And then in certain moments,

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it's a lot of very over -verbose descriptions

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of, like, slightly gross -out descriptions of

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things. So that does definitely play into it.

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But I think the fundamental premise, we've got

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this guy who's his down -and -luck. He's a ship

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captain, a pilot in the age of space travel.

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a few years earlier they finally cracked that

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old wormhole dimensional door technology and

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now all the old pilots that used to like lug

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along whole equipment and go exploring into the

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great black are now out of the job just kind

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of like taxi drivers busying themselves around

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the airport or people being like hey do you want

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to come in like I’ll do you a little tour of

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some of the highlights of the of the you know

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the galaxy And one thing leads to another, and

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he ends up getting a job to basically look after

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a mob boss's son. And he's out of his depth.

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I think he basically ends up pretending that

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he's a much more famous guy than he is. And kind

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of the plot rolls from there. It's one kind of

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observed situation. It's a lot of out of the

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frying pan, into the fryer, out of that again,

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into a volcano kind of escalation. It was a nice,

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light, fun time. so yeah that's a sort of it's

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a story i um i get i get i hear brought up occasionally

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when people want light irreverent comedies um

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i don't know anything about it or the stories

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it gets compared to like uh dungeon crawler something

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carl carl i think what i would say for anyone

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who's Firstly, if you saw what I’ve described

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and you kind of like the sound of it, go and

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listen to the artist he calls any YouTube work.

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He's on a channel called Second Wind. And if

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you just like the tempo of his voice and sort

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of the humour that comes forth there, this is

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a much more structured example of that comedy

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in a very light and breezy sort of book. What

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I also experienced this week, and Geordie, this

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is actually a little bit deeper. Oh. And I kind

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of forgot about it. I was like almost not going

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to mention. Geordie, I saw a Shakespeare play

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this week. Oh, wonderful. I saw The Merchant

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of Venice. Hmm. What did you think of it? Reset

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into 1936 Britain. Ah. Wow, that's a bit grim.

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Oh, yes. See, I can compare to your stuff. Do

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you know, actually, I’m not following comparison,

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but another grim story. The Merchant of Venice,

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for those that don't know, deals highly with

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anti -Semitism in the sense that it's an anti

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-Semitic story. Yeah, it's one of Shakespeare's

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problem plays. So there's a lot of plays which,

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you know, obviously Shakespeare, the greatest

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writer to ever live. It's not really that debatable.

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But he still is a product of his time, and he

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wrote a number of problem plays, like The Merchant

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of Venice, like The Taming of a Shrew. And the

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great challenge which a lot of people have is

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how to confront stories like this, which we want

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to retell because they're extremely well written,

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against the absolute abhorrence of the content.

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And the character of Shylock, who is a... which

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is almost a second -hand word for an anti -Semitic

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depiction of a moneylender. He's one of these

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famous but very difficult to adapt characters.

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Duncan, how do you think they did? Oh, I think

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they did extraordinarily well. The thing they

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do in this adaptation, so the character of Shylock

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is this moneylender who gets drawn into a bond

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with this socialite Antonio. And Shylock says

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to underwrite the bond, I want a pound of flesh.

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This is the origin of where that phrase comes

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from. Also apparently in this place where green

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eyes with envy or something like that comes from

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this one as well. Anyway, but what they do in

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this play. Firstly, they set in 1956 Britain.

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So this is where the fascist movement was getting

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big in the UK. And the protests around that.

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And all of our characters who aren't Shylock

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and their daughter, they're all part of this

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movement. They're all fascists. And they're meant

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to be the heroes in this story. But they do a

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brilliant decision where not only do we... I

00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:54.299
don't know if I can get this right. They basically

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cast Shylock. Firstly, there's a gender swap.

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Shylock is played by a woman in this piece. whose

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name I will say now, Chetianne Oberman. And by

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kind of doing this gender swap, we get a much

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more, her performance, and it might not be necessarily

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down to the gender swap, but her performance,

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you get a much more sort of nuanced kind of like,

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this Shylock is being backed into a corner. So

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a lot of the actions that are attributed to Shylock,

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like this whole, I just want a pound of flesh.

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I’m not going to restate on this deal. You see

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it from the perspective of a character that has

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been kind of spat at and derived and bullied

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by these sort of powerful men. And she's just

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trying to stand her ground in a society that's

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getting increasingly, increasingly hostile to

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her. Yeah. Another factor that the play does

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really well, obviously, without acting any lines,

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that actually opens up a scene of Shylock at

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dinner. you know, with the family, sort of soften

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the character. And at the end of the play, the

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original ending is that, well, same in this one,

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that Shylock's forced to convert to Christianity.

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And obviously in Shakespeare time, that was the

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happy ending. Yeah. We're all Christians together.

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You know, I mean, it's become Christian or we

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will execute you, but you know, how delightful.

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Whereas, and in the original play, the line is

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from Shylock, I am content. And the way it's

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played in this one is the I am content. You see

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the kind of a heartbreak and Shylock doesn't

00:14:24.940 --> 00:14:26.940
actually leave the stage at this point. They

00:14:26.940 --> 00:14:28.919
stay on stage and you just see them sort of sitting

00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:30.220
in the back while the rest of the characters

00:14:30.220 --> 00:14:32.940
play out. Just having this complete kind of breakdown

00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:37.279
and upset of losing everything at the end and

00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:41.460
turns into a much more tragic character. So yeah,

00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:44.519
brilliantly done. On tour in the UK, highly recommend.

00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:47.820
It's called Merchant Events 1936. Well, Duncan,

00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:49.559
that's fantastic. I’m pleased that you did that.

00:14:49.620 --> 00:14:51.259
I’d love to see The Merchant of Venice. That's

00:14:51.259 --> 00:14:54.220
not one of the plays I’ve ticked off my list,

00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:57.620
but I definitely hope to in the future. So, well,

00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:03.100
that's good. You had a nice cultured week running

00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:06.820
the gamut from irreverent comedies to Shakespearean

00:15:06.820 --> 00:15:12.200
tragedies. But on with the show. Watership down.

00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:15.100
Now, Geordie, there's a question to be asked

00:15:15.100 --> 00:15:18.419
at the very beginning of this. Is this fantasy?

00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:23.860
There was a question about this. I felt confident

00:15:23.860 --> 00:15:26.860
going into this episode that this was correct.

00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:29.960
You had your own doubts. A lot of people had

00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:32.600
their doubts, actually. I’m surrounded by haters

00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:36.440
on all sides. But I feel confident saying that

00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:39.139
pretty shortly into this book, I was vindicated.

00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:41.850
What do you think, Duncan? So the premise alone,

00:15:42.149 --> 00:15:44.309
whenever you're dealing with these anthropomorphised

00:15:44.309 --> 00:15:46.309
animals, there's a little bit of me that's like,

00:15:46.389 --> 00:15:48.909
well, I mean, that's not real, so it has to be

00:15:48.909 --> 00:15:51.710
fantastical. But that's certainly not the argument

00:15:51.710 --> 00:15:53.870
I’m making. I think what we're getting Watership

00:15:53.870 --> 00:15:58.190
down is a very deeply entrenched... One, we've

00:15:58.190 --> 00:16:00.610
got a lot of this culture and their lore and

00:16:00.610 --> 00:16:02.250
the rabbits are telling about their gods and

00:16:02.250 --> 00:16:04.370
their beings, and that does inform the plot.

00:16:04.929 --> 00:16:06.669
But also, just straight up, there's a rabbit

00:16:06.669 --> 00:16:09.830
called Fiverr who has fully prophetic visions.

00:16:10.509 --> 00:16:14.870
Yeah. Like, bang on the money. He gets it right.

00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:18.029
Like, that's not real. That's sufficient. Yeah.

00:16:18.110 --> 00:16:21.470
And a lot of that stuff at first is like, well,

00:16:21.629 --> 00:16:24.710
this could be him, like, making, like, leaps

00:16:24.710 --> 00:16:27.529
of logic. Like, he's intuiting with his great

00:16:27.529 --> 00:16:31.809
insight. Stuff which feels like a prediction,

00:16:31.990 --> 00:16:34.029
but it's actually just like him putting the pieces

00:16:34.029 --> 00:16:37.789
together. But then later we meet another character

00:16:37.789 --> 00:16:41.929
who's also a wizard. and who makes this like

00:16:41.929 --> 00:16:46.470
prophecy for which there is absolutely there's

00:16:46.470 --> 00:16:48.730
no information that would allow her to make that

00:16:48.730 --> 00:16:51.009
prophecy ahead of time it's just it's just magic

00:16:51.009 --> 00:16:54.289
well I’m glad that's sorted on with the show

00:16:54.289 --> 00:16:56.950
watershed down people it's about rabbits that

00:16:56.950 --> 00:17:03.330
get killed oh it's the story of a group of rabbits

00:17:03.330 --> 00:17:07.029
that exists in a happy little warren and we mostly

00:17:07.029 --> 00:17:10.599
follow the character of Hazel who's out and about,

00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:15.079
but when their dear friend, Fiverr, has this

00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.519
vision that their warren is going to get brutally

00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:19.839
destroyed and everyone who stays there is going

00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:23.720
to end up dead, Hazel is like, yeah, I hear you.

00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:25.839
Let's go tell the big honcho. Let's tell people

00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:28.700
to get out. Obviously, not everyone listens.

00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:32.019
Only a small group leaves. Classic disaster film

00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:34.500
sort of premise, by the way. That's what happens.

00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:35.640
Someone's like, we've got to move. Someone's

00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:39.019
like, no, the masses die. and they set out to

00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:42.400
find a new home um the title of the water ship

00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.700
down they have a journey to get there and once

00:17:45.700 --> 00:17:49.099
they get there well geordie they have some issues

00:17:49.099 --> 00:17:54.119
i was really surprised reading this book that

00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:58.140
the story reminded me the most of by far was

00:17:58.140 --> 00:18:00.799
the walking dead i didn't make that connection

00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:04.660
but now you say it oh that just that does just

00:18:04.660 --> 00:18:08.400
click that sort of When they're on the road and

00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.859
then they get to a place of safety, very much

00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:13.059
that first arc with the governor in the prison.

00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:15.599
They're like, we found a good home, but then

00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.880
there's just this other gang of arseholes over

00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:23.700
the hill. And also be like, we come to a safe

00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:26.519
place and it feels like the right place to settle

00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:30.940
down, but all is not as it seems. That too. Yes,

00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.180
that played out several times. I remember...

00:18:33.660 --> 00:18:36.319
are terminus that's the one in walking dead where

00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.059
they're like this seems nice and then they're

00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:41.220
cannibals not quite that case here it watered

00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:45.019
it down no yeah no no actually well no there

00:18:45.019 --> 00:18:47.299
is mentions of cannibalism in this book but only

00:18:47.299 --> 00:18:51.079
off page um yeah and also the thing the great

00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:52.960
thing about it is that much like the walking

00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.660
dead the main sort of drama behind this book

00:18:55.660 --> 00:18:59.380
is not merely the survival of the troop that

00:18:59.380 --> 00:19:03.029
sets out on their um on the journey in the first

00:19:03.029 --> 00:19:06.910
place. It also comes down to a theme about leadership.

00:19:08.170 --> 00:19:12.109
Hazel is set up from the start to almost be the

00:19:12.109 --> 00:19:14.410
follower of Fiverr. You know, Fiverr's the one

00:19:14.410 --> 00:19:16.529
who has the vision that says they have to go.

00:19:16.869 --> 00:19:20.009
The only role that Hazel initially plays is that

00:19:20.009 --> 00:19:23.049
they're the first person to listen to Fiverr.

00:19:23.049 --> 00:19:25.250
In some ways, they could almost be like an apostle

00:19:25.250 --> 00:19:28.589
figure. He talks for Fiverr because Fiverr's

00:19:28.589 --> 00:19:31.970
very shy, but it's still Fiverr's idea. It's

00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:36.190
only later on, as the story goes on, that Hazel

00:19:36.190 --> 00:19:39.150
sort of slowly ends up in the role of leader,

00:19:39.329 --> 00:19:42.390
which you could sort of say he's like fighting

00:19:42.390 --> 00:19:45.349
for against the character of Big Wig. Yes, and

00:19:45.349 --> 00:19:48.869
I really have to stress that these kind of character

00:19:48.869 --> 00:19:51.609
interactions, it's very much what kind of just

00:19:51.609 --> 00:19:53.950
pulls this book to another level. Like, they're

00:19:53.950 --> 00:19:55.930
on a quest, they're looking for a thing, they

00:19:55.930 --> 00:19:57.829
get a thing, they need to find another thing.

00:19:58.210 --> 00:20:00.329
There's some bad people that don't want to have

00:20:00.329 --> 00:20:03.700
the thing. But it's the kind of personal growth

00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:06.559
of these rabbits as they strike out on their

00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:10.119
owner. And often it's how I find I thought the

00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.160
troop interacted and they leaned on each other

00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:15.799
for strength when they pulled apart at certain

00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:19.660
points. That's where I felt, wow, this is Watership

00:20:19.660 --> 00:20:23.099
Down elevating itself. It's in this kind of inter

00:20:23.099 --> 00:20:26.759
-character work. I agree. You really get surprised

00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.380
by... You really get surprised by how much you

00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:34.539
connect to the bond between the rabbits. It's

00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:36.440
not like in a lot of books, it's like, it's not

00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:38.700
like in a lot of books we read in terms of how

00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:41.519
these relationships develop. It's not like, say,

00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:47.000
anything in The Straight Razor Cure or Bonesmith.

00:20:47.180 --> 00:20:50.940
It's more like, surprise, surprise, the relationships

00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:56.309
that exist in The Black Company. It's a camaraderie.

00:20:56.390 --> 00:21:00.349
It's a sense of community that develops. But

00:21:00.349 --> 00:21:02.650
also, it's like, what if we're reading the Black

00:21:02.650 --> 00:21:04.529
Company's first adventure? You know, where they're

00:21:04.529 --> 00:21:06.569
developing the trust they have in each other.

00:21:06.789 --> 00:21:09.509
Even sort of the, I mean, the main characters,

00:21:09.529 --> 00:21:11.269
if I had to point to them, you know, you say

00:21:11.269 --> 00:21:15.349
Big Wig, Hazel, Fiverr. But even sort of the lesser

00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:18.970
ranking ones, Silver, is it Blackberry or Blackcurrant?

00:21:19.690 --> 00:21:23.990
Blackberry. Blackberry. Yes. it's obviously not

00:21:23.990 --> 00:21:26.109
black car and duncan you know that blackberry

00:21:26.109 --> 00:21:30.569
they still got their moments to contribute to

00:21:30.569 --> 00:21:33.869
respond to what's happening you know no one i

00:21:33.869 --> 00:21:35.509
mean eventually i think there are more characters

00:21:35.509 --> 00:21:37.849
than maybe i was like aware of but there's still

00:21:37.849 --> 00:21:39.589
like a solid group of upwards I’ll say like seven

00:21:39.589 --> 00:21:42.170
rabbits I’m like oh they're here they're in the

00:21:42.170 --> 00:21:45.750
fights they're going on the missions Dandelion

00:21:45.750 --> 00:21:48.859
especially as a character who initially just

00:21:48.859 --> 00:21:51.180
sort of as a background figure. But eventually,

00:21:51.339 --> 00:21:54.279
I actually drew a lot of comfort when Dandelion

00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:56.960
would come into a scene. I’d be like, okay, things

00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.079
are going to get settled down now. Blackcurrant's

00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.200
going to... Sorry, not Blackcurrant. Dandelion's

00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:04.160
going to tell us a nice story. And later, when

00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:08.140
Dandelion is imperiled, there's this moment where

00:22:08.140 --> 00:22:11.059
Hazel says, we have to leave him behind. I went,

00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:15.420
Hazel, no! It's so well done, those sort of moments.

00:22:15.500 --> 00:22:17.599
It's... you know talking about you're afraid

00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:19.140
of world war ii if it's like that the band of

00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:22.200
brothers just yeah you really have this connection

00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:24.420
and i think to be honest that's what drives a

00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:26.880
lot of the sense of peril in this book it's less

00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:28.660
so what's happening but the fact that i care

00:22:28.660 --> 00:22:32.640
about so much of the cast that I’m like yeah

00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.539
from a plot when you're reading a story I’m trying

00:22:35.539 --> 00:22:38.140
to think of a good example top of my head i don't

00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:39.539
know if lord of the rings isn't the best example

00:22:39.539 --> 00:22:42.980
but Say you've got your main character and you

00:22:42.980 --> 00:22:44.700
kind of know by the tropes of the way of the

00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:46.640
world that they're not going to get touched.

00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:49.799
So they're protected by the plot. And then you've

00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:51.559
got the other characters and they could die and

00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:54.839
the plot could keep working. What I think what

00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:56.880
it does so well is it makes you really kind of

00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.039
like all these other characters who are maybe

00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:02.460
slightly estraneous to the brunt of the narrative.

00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.619
Which makes them expendable by the laws of written

00:23:06.619 --> 00:23:09.160
stories but you like them so much you're now

00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:11.849
really upset. So then when these actions happen

00:23:11.849 --> 00:23:14.829
you feel that sense of peril and the fact that

00:23:14.829 --> 00:23:18.329
the author clearly is happy to slaughter bunnies

00:23:18.329 --> 00:23:22.130
throughout that sense of peril really hung over

00:23:22.130 --> 00:23:27.009
most scenes uh there's a bit later on with Big Wig

00:23:27.009 --> 00:23:29.349
where he goes he goes undercover and i was terrified

00:23:29.349 --> 00:23:33.359
for him exactly It's so thrilling. It really

00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:38.079
did feel like a proper spy narrative. The sense

00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.099
of paranoia and danger in that section where

00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:45.099
he's legitimately playing a double agent. That

00:23:45.099 --> 00:23:48.160
was really well written and I never in a million

00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.140
years thought that was going to develop out of

00:23:51.140 --> 00:23:54.599
the initial premise. But let's zero in on specific

00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:58.019
characters then. What do you think of Hazel or

00:23:58.019 --> 00:24:02.170
Hazelrah? As they come to be known later, love

00:24:02.170 --> 00:24:05.990
their little, like, epitaph. I love Hazel. Hazel

00:24:05.990 --> 00:24:11.190
is fantastic. I think that there's a really delicate

00:24:11.190 --> 00:24:13.950
art that came into the creation of a character

00:24:13.950 --> 00:24:22.150
like Hazel. Hazel represents a sort of... The

00:24:22.150 --> 00:24:24.289
word that comes to mind with Hazel is jack -of

00:24:24.289 --> 00:24:27.750
-all -trades. Hazel is not even a fully grown

00:24:27.750 --> 00:24:31.859
rabbit. He's far from physically the strongest.

00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:35.680
And this book, considering that it's about fluffy

00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:39.119
little bunny rabbits, puts a huge emphasis on

00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:43.019
rabbit size and strength. It depicts them as

00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:47.440
feisty and territorial and aggressive creatures.

00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:51.720
I had bunnies growing up, Duncan. Did you have

00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.819
bunnies? I did indeed. I did not think they were

00:24:55.819 --> 00:24:58.329
going to be... They were as... territorial and

00:24:58.329 --> 00:25:01.009
mean as this. A lot was happening in the hutch

00:25:01.009 --> 00:25:03.710
when I wasn't looking, apparently. I have a good

00:25:03.710 --> 00:25:05.509
rabbit story, though. I’ll save it for the end

00:25:05.509 --> 00:25:08.130
of the podcast, but folks should listen for it

00:25:08.130 --> 00:25:11.829
because I think it's a very good story. But,

00:25:12.009 --> 00:25:15.369
so, Hazel, not physically the strongest, not

00:25:15.369 --> 00:25:18.609
even, despite being quite tricky, not even the

00:25:18.609 --> 00:25:22.309
smartest. He leaves the thinking to Fiverr and

00:25:22.309 --> 00:25:26.650
BlackBerry. But Hazel... is an exceptionally

00:25:26.650 --> 00:25:29.930
good leader. And the way in which this is actually

00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:32.470
written and depicted and the internal struggle

00:25:32.470 --> 00:25:35.730
he has to come up with the right ideas, I thought

00:25:35.730 --> 00:25:38.390
was fantastically done. Some of the strengths

00:25:38.390 --> 00:25:42.029
here, which I think kind of set above other depictions

00:25:42.029 --> 00:25:46.309
of leadership, is firstly the lack of infallibility.

00:25:46.890 --> 00:25:49.269
Hazel does make the wrong decisions. In fact,

00:25:49.269 --> 00:25:52.569
early on, there's a section where on our journey,

00:25:52.589 --> 00:25:55.440
as we set out, where they kind of get to their

00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:59.339
first false haven. Cowslitz Warren, I think is

00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:01.180
what it's referred to. And they're like, oh,

00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:04.220
we could be safe here. And in this moment, Fiverr

00:26:04.220 --> 00:26:06.500
gets another like, Hazel, Hazel, we've got to

00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:08.400
go. We've got to go. We can't be here. Hazel's

00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:12.440
like, nah, it's fine. I mean, I only left everyone

00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:15.000
behind last time you had a bad vision, but I’m

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:17.059
sure this time it's okay because he's tired and

00:26:17.059 --> 00:26:18.819
he doesn't want to go out on the run again. And,

00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:21.059
you know, it seems comfy and there's good food.

00:26:21.660 --> 00:26:23.480
And this proves to be the wrong decision, but

00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:26.460
it's a decision that seemed very real for why

00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:28.359
Hazel is making it. You know, he's exhausted

00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:30.420
at this point. He's finally gotten somewhere

00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:32.839
safe. He feels like, oh, can't I just achieve

00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:37.640
this? Yeah. But Hazel then makes the mistake,

00:26:37.779 --> 00:26:40.119
but then learns from it. Like, you can clearly

00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:43.519
see he's developing in his leadership role. to

00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:46.119
listen to those around him and i like the fact

00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:49.980
that even after like Hazel has learned a lot

00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:52.660
of lessons and has improved as a leader and is

00:26:52.660 --> 00:26:55.759
more than that firmly established and respected

00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.299
by the other rabbits he's still making little

00:26:59.299 --> 00:27:01.539
mistakes like i mentioned before a bit where

00:27:02.349 --> 00:27:05.630
he's ready to make the tough decision to leave

00:27:05.630 --> 00:27:09.210
Dandelion behind to like be killed by other rabbits

00:27:09.210 --> 00:27:12.150
to protect everyone else and he makes this really

00:27:12.150 --> 00:27:16.710
hard decision in this in a split second and big

00:27:16.710 --> 00:27:19.190
wig like disagrees with him says like hold on

00:27:19.190 --> 00:27:22.069
for just a little longer and then Dandelion does

00:27:22.069 --> 00:27:25.130
show up and does rescue himself and then managed

00:27:25.130 --> 00:27:29.450
to get away with everyone so this is definitively

00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:31.430
you know from a utilitarian point of view the

00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:35.430
wrong call if like a sacrifice didn't need to

00:27:35.430 --> 00:27:39.230
be make made but what i find interesting about

00:27:39.230 --> 00:27:41.630
this story is that none of the characters get

00:27:41.630 --> 00:27:44.509
bogged down about this they're all practical

00:27:44.509 --> 00:27:48.369
enough and sensitive enough to sort of like roll

00:27:48.369 --> 00:27:50.650
with the punches there and i think there's even

00:27:50.650 --> 00:27:53.730
a moment right after this where where he where

00:27:53.730 --> 00:27:56.529
Hazel feels bad for a moment and it reflects

00:27:57.389 --> 00:28:00.029
No, Dandelion trusts me enough to make these

00:28:00.029 --> 00:28:03.170
decisions, and they just sort of press on on

00:28:03.170 --> 00:28:05.150
their adventure. I mean, talking about great

00:28:05.150 --> 00:28:07.230
leadership, I know it's a very easy comparison

00:28:07.230 --> 00:28:10.690
to make, but I read about Hazel, this little

00:28:10.690 --> 00:28:12.869
bunny rabbit, and I’m just like, ah, Jean -Luc

00:28:12.869 --> 00:28:17.339
Picard. The spirit lives on. I mean, because

00:28:17.339 --> 00:28:19.980
I was in that World War II frame of mind, I was

00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:23.900
going back to Band of Brothers in major winters.

00:28:23.980 --> 00:28:27.039
But yes, absolutely. And the thing that works

00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:30.720
about this is he's able to recognize the strengths

00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:32.660
of the other rabbits. One of the best things

00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:36.099
that happens in this story is in a moment of

00:28:36.099 --> 00:28:40.460
overconfidence, Hazel goes out on a... silly

00:28:40.460 --> 00:28:42.740
mission you know he does he does something very

00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:45.940
reckless for very little reward and he gets shot

00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:49.400
he gets shot by a farmer's shotgun has pellets

00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:52.420
in his leg and not only for the rest of the story

00:28:52.420 --> 00:28:55.819
but the rest of his life he can never run as

00:28:55.819 --> 00:29:00.119
far or as fast again and not only does he pay

00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:04.420
for this mistake now he can just he just can't

00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:07.380
do as much he's now disabled into in rabbit terms

00:29:08.250 --> 00:29:10.890
So when he goes on future missions, he wants

00:29:10.890 --> 00:29:13.869
to put himself forward, but he literally can't.

00:29:13.869 --> 00:29:17.589
He has to start putting other people in harm's

00:29:17.589 --> 00:29:20.910
way to do the things that have to be done. So,

00:29:21.029 --> 00:29:25.549
looking at the rest of this band, I guess Fiverr's

00:29:25.549 --> 00:29:28.130
the next one you've got to chat about. Fiverr's

00:29:28.130 --> 00:29:31.509
great as well. I love Fiverr. I know, he's so

00:29:31.509 --> 00:29:34.730
kind of cute in the sense that... I was worried

00:29:34.730 --> 00:29:36.789
he might get annoyed, to be honest. To be honest,

00:29:36.829 --> 00:29:38.690
when he's doing this sort of doom and gloom and

00:29:38.690 --> 00:29:41.289
he's kind of telling people, like, is this...

00:29:41.289 --> 00:29:43.809
Where's your personality beyond the visions?

00:29:45.349 --> 00:29:48.490
But he has one. You know, he's sort of... He's

00:29:48.490 --> 00:29:50.289
reserved. He's a little bit more skipperish.

00:29:51.250 --> 00:29:53.170
Is that the right term? Yeah, I’d say so. He's

00:29:53.170 --> 00:29:56.430
very cute. Like, he's literally... He's the smallest

00:29:56.430 --> 00:29:59.230
rabbit. He's very intelligent, but he can't accomplish

00:29:59.230 --> 00:30:02.250
much for himself. He relies on the others. And...

00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:04.819
and there's a sense that he could easily get

00:30:04.819 --> 00:30:07.119
like pushed around and bullied into doing what

00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:09.920
um when anyone else wants but people you know

00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:12.099
people love fiverr too much and they recognize

00:30:12.099 --> 00:30:14.779
his value eventually the value of his insights

00:30:14.779 --> 00:30:20.279
and um what i also like about him is like you

00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:22.519
said there's a moment where he could get annoying

00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:27.220
like that sort of i told you so moment in um

00:30:27.220 --> 00:30:31.539
with the cowslip farm uh cowshit warren where

00:30:31.539 --> 00:30:34.319
he's like you know this is bad we need to leave

00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:38.180
but the actual way he sort of has his i told

00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:41.880
you moment is delivered in such a beautiful and

00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:45.940
dramatic and powerful way that it really just

00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:49.019
it doesn't make you go oh come on it makes you

00:30:49.019 --> 00:30:52.559
go wow listen to this fucking rabbit he knows

00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:54.720
what he's talking about okay and i do want to

00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:56.299
expand on actually on the cowshit farm because

00:30:56.299 --> 00:30:59.289
he's brought up you know twice now this is This

00:30:59.289 --> 00:31:02.349
is the first stop off. They stop off at this

00:31:02.349 --> 00:31:04.650
warren. Cowslip is the name of the rabbit. I

00:31:04.650 --> 00:31:05.789
don't even think it's the head rabbit. It's just

00:31:05.789 --> 00:31:07.789
one of the other rabbits they meet there. And

00:31:07.789 --> 00:31:10.069
they're like, come, live with us. It's all nice

00:31:10.069 --> 00:31:12.289
and roomy. The local farmer, he gives us food.

00:31:12.430 --> 00:31:17.609
It's lovely. And what we get is rabbits just

00:31:17.609 --> 00:31:21.849
go missing here and no one talks about it. And

00:31:21.849 --> 00:31:25.069
this is so brilliantly eerie because I believe

00:31:25.069 --> 00:31:27.329
at the very start, when it first gets very first

00:31:27.329 --> 00:31:30.930
gets mentioned, it's almost offhand. And then

00:31:30.930 --> 00:31:33.930
it's only when someone starts to push on it and

00:31:33.930 --> 00:31:36.789
they get that kind of strong slap back, like

00:31:36.789 --> 00:31:39.150
just quiet. Don't talk about it. You're like,

00:31:39.250 --> 00:31:42.869
OK, I’ve sat up now. What's happening? What's

00:31:42.869 --> 00:31:45.890
going on? And it builds and I’m thinking about

00:31:45.890 --> 00:31:47.950
what's going on, like what the rabbit's doing.

00:31:48.029 --> 00:31:51.019
Do they have a. deal is this some weird cult

00:31:51.019 --> 00:31:52.579
thing i don't know that's just where my brain

00:31:52.579 --> 00:31:55.599
was going no it but it does have a cultish feel

00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:59.279
to it um because when you arrive at this warren

00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:02.660
you know something's wrong just from the point

00:32:02.660 --> 00:32:04.940
of view of the reader you know it's too early

00:32:04.940 --> 00:32:07.339
in the book for them to have found their safe

00:32:07.339 --> 00:32:11.720
place but actually i couldn't really figure out

00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:15.920
like exactly what the issue was That's what made

00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:18.500
it so blooming good. We eventually get this reveal

00:32:18.500 --> 00:32:23.339
where Big Wig gets caught in a snare. And firstly,

00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.700
this is a great scene because we've got the big,

00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:27.720
powerful rabbit brought low by this rabbit snare.

00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:30.779
And we also see who are the clever rabbits who

00:32:30.779 --> 00:32:32.900
work out how to free him. It was a good scene.

00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:34.960
Really early moment, I think, with Blackberry

00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:39.319
being like clawing at the little peg in the ground.

00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:42.930
You're like, you're the smart guy. I’ve got it.

00:32:43.009 --> 00:32:45.390
Other people start panicking. And then there's

00:32:45.390 --> 00:32:48.640
the... There's the teamwork, because they all

00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:51.160
burrow in to try and gnaw through the peg that's

00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:53.359
holding it in place, and once they get down low

00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:55.880
enough, it's too small, and Hazel immediately

00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:58.400
says, Fiverr, get Fiverr, he's the smallest,

00:32:58.660 --> 00:33:01.400
and Fiverr leaps in at once, despite being the

00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:03.740
weakest and most scared of them all, and he's

00:33:03.740 --> 00:33:06.279
the one who manages to free Big Wig, and even

00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:08.759
gets injured in the process, but obviously these

00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:11.000
rabbits are so good and supportive, and they

00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:12.539
care about each other so much that he doesn't

00:33:12.539 --> 00:33:15.740
care. And... you have this dramatic moment where

00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:19.160
he unveils the history of this Warren, which

00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:23.339
is not called Cow Slip. I looked it up. I found

00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:26.000
the Wikipedia in which it lists the name in the

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.480
movie, which is Warren of Snares, which is a

00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.039
bit of a giveaway. So it's definitely not called

00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:32.480
that in the book because otherwise I would have

00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:36.819
figured it out pretty fast. But as Duncan has

00:33:36.819 --> 00:33:42.920
alluded to, they are on a farm. This whole area

00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:48.200
is set up. with uh it's set up with snares to

00:33:48.200 --> 00:33:51.259
catch rabbits they're being kept big and fat

00:33:51.259 --> 00:33:54.759
on purpose but all of these weird eccentricities

00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:58.079
they have the way in which they put like stones

00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:02.000
into the wall of their their um the walls of

00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.119
their uh warren no i was gonna say warren i was

00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:07.880
gonna say this specific word it's this warren

00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:09.980
is the whole thing but they're actual like tunnels

00:34:09.980 --> 00:34:13.030
i have a different word for it burrow They've

00:34:13.030 --> 00:34:15.889
put stones in the wall of their burrows. And

00:34:15.889 --> 00:34:18.929
the idea is they're getting more human -like.

00:34:19.090 --> 00:34:22.150
They're not acting like normal rabbits. They're

00:34:22.150 --> 00:34:25.090
doing things quite strangely. They don't tell

00:34:25.090 --> 00:34:28.449
stories about El-ahrairah, the great cultural

00:34:28.449 --> 00:34:33.849
hero of the rabbits. Because being reminded of

00:34:33.849 --> 00:34:37.409
freedom and trickery is too painful to them.

00:34:37.530 --> 00:34:40.849
And their strangest... eccentricity of all is

00:34:40.849 --> 00:34:43.949
they would never answer any question that begins

00:34:43.949 --> 00:34:47.150
with where and and like so did you write firstly

00:34:47.150 --> 00:34:49.710
i forgive myself now for making it kind of cult

00:34:49.710 --> 00:34:52.090
-like so where does this where come from why

00:34:52.090 --> 00:34:54.110
where because this is brought up multiple times

00:34:54.110 --> 00:34:56.010
where they ask them where where's this place

00:34:56.010 --> 00:34:57.909
where did they go where does the food come from

00:34:57.909 --> 00:35:03.829
and the reason why is because it's taboo in this

00:35:03.829 --> 00:35:08.269
warren to ask where anyone or anything is because

00:35:08.269 --> 00:35:12.769
they because when rabbits are caught in the silver

00:35:12.769 --> 00:35:16.110
wire and they're trapped no one wants to acknowledge

00:35:16.110 --> 00:35:18.710
that anyone has gone missing that anyone has

00:35:18.710 --> 00:35:22.170
been sacrificed and they hold on to this delusion

00:35:22.170 --> 00:35:25.710
so firmly that when other rabbits come looking

00:35:25.710 --> 00:35:29.469
for Big Wig and Hazel and they identify them as

00:35:29.469 --> 00:35:32.130
belonging to the same group of rabbits, they

00:35:32.130 --> 00:35:35.190
attack and kill some of them because they have

00:35:35.190 --> 00:35:38.849
to defend, to such an extent, the sanctity of

00:35:38.849 --> 00:35:41.349
their delusion. Okay, I’m massively forgiving

00:35:41.349 --> 00:35:44.849
myself for describing it as cult -like. What

00:35:44.849 --> 00:35:47.989
I really enjoy about this, firstly, from the

00:35:47.989 --> 00:35:50.130
rabbit's perspective... You know, this cult of

00:35:50.130 --> 00:35:52.510
delusion. We can't accept the horrors that go

00:35:52.510 --> 00:35:54.769
on. We've got to just close our eyes to the horrors

00:35:54.769 --> 00:35:57.170
that are going on around us. Incredibly powerful

00:35:57.170 --> 00:35:59.590
stuff. Really good to be read on to obviously

00:35:59.590 --> 00:36:02.489
huge parts of human history. Now, Duncan, before

00:36:02.489 --> 00:36:04.329
you go any further. But I also really kind of

00:36:04.329 --> 00:36:06.750
enjoy this. We should of course bear in mind

00:36:06.750 --> 00:36:08.610
that according to the author, this book is not

00:36:08.610 --> 00:36:10.750
an allegory. And you shouldn't read it as an

00:36:10.750 --> 00:36:13.329
allegory for anything. He said so in the author's

00:36:13.329 --> 00:36:15.630
notes. So please, don't try and relate this to

00:36:15.630 --> 00:36:18.460
anything that's happened in human history. But

00:36:18.460 --> 00:36:21.619
please go ahead. Do what you like, people. I’m

00:36:21.619 --> 00:36:24.019
sure you'll find the bits that are obvious, obvious,

00:36:24.139 --> 00:36:27.420
regardless of authorial intent. Back to what

00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:30.159
I was saying. What I really enjoy is the fact

00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:32.260
that this is this main cross -section between

00:36:32.260 --> 00:36:34.360
the rabbits and the human world we get early

00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:37.280
on, and that this big mystery from the rabbits

00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:41.780
is almost so mundane from the human perspective.

00:36:42.099 --> 00:36:44.019
What is this? It's a free -range rabbit farm.

00:36:44.179 --> 00:36:47.699
Yeah. Okay. those are them yeah exactly we know

00:36:47.699 --> 00:36:50.159
what those are but it's so alien and strange

00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:52.760
to rabbits that you only see the very edges of

00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:54.820
it such that it actually becomes a bit weird

00:36:54.820 --> 00:36:58.199
and mysterious i kept changing my mind when i

00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:00.139
was reading this section it was like what is

00:37:00.139 --> 00:37:03.159
wrong with these rabbits at one point they mentioned

00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:06.239
like the idea of a poison tree and I’m like are

00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:08.840
they being like poisoned by pollution or something

00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:12.199
is that why you're acting strange and then later

00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:14.579
they mention that farmers come along no sorry

00:37:14.579 --> 00:37:16.780
they mention that humans come along and drop

00:37:16.780 --> 00:37:21.420
little white strange smelling sticks which is

00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:24.360
how cigarettes are constantly referred to throughout

00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:27.619
the book and amusingly every single human being

00:37:27.619 --> 00:37:31.840
smokes in every single scene they appear um i

00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:33.880
think it goes to show the time period this was

00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:37.280
written in the 1970s but and then i thought oh

00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:40.179
my god these rabbits are eating nicotine and

00:37:40.179 --> 00:37:42.900
they're going insane i might have thought that

00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:46.099
because last week my girlfriend was going to

00:37:46.099 --> 00:37:50.340
work and she saw a rap sorry a squirrel holding

00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:53.539
a vape pen notice her and then run away with

00:37:53.539 --> 00:37:58.340
the vape oh no poor squirrel it's not good for

00:37:58.340 --> 00:38:01.320
them no it's fine duncan you know he'll just

00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:04.179
let out some of that squirrel anxiety That's

00:38:04.179 --> 00:38:06.920
the chillest squirrel you'll ever meet. Don't

00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:09.679
litter, folks. Don't litter. That's the message

00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:13.179
to have taken away from here. But it's not rabbits

00:38:13.179 --> 00:38:16.519
getting poisoned by cigarettes. It's this much

00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:20.840
more normal and yet stranger story. I think my

00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:23.280
kind of point here is I do enjoy anything where

00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:26.480
you kind of recast sort of the mundanity of the

00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.980
human world and sort of show it from the animal's

00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:31.559
perspective being quite horrific. Yeah, of course.

00:38:32.090 --> 00:38:33.409
And I think they could say for a lot of this

00:38:33.409 --> 00:38:35.909
book, it's sort of these great battles are taking

00:38:35.909 --> 00:38:39.010
place. But if you were just a human standing

00:38:39.010 --> 00:38:42.449
around, you just go, oh, look at the bunnies

00:38:42.449 --> 00:38:45.630
running back and forth, drawing your cigarette,

00:38:45.869 --> 00:38:51.389
walk away. Your little white stick. Something

00:38:51.389 --> 00:38:53.369
about, the great thing to bring about rabbit

00:38:53.369 --> 00:38:57.090
perspective is not only do these rabbits have

00:38:57.090 --> 00:39:00.420
like a culture and a history. They have a language.

00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:04.900
They speak Lapine. And this book, it's sprinkled

00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:08.219
throughout with rabbit words. These are words

00:39:08.219 --> 00:39:11.639
which the author has decided are important enough

00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:16.280
to rabbits, which, in fact, they need their own

00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:20.440
word for it. But it's untranslatable to humans

00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:25.500
because it doesn't mean anything to us. And that's

00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:27.440
a really nice kind of cultural building technique.

00:39:28.269 --> 00:39:30.650
I love the use of language, obviously Tolkien

00:39:30.650 --> 00:39:33.289
being a bit of a king of it. And to kind of bring

00:39:33.289 --> 00:39:36.230
this forth to the rabbit culture, I do quite

00:39:36.230 --> 00:39:38.650
like the idea that they are speaking rabbit,

00:39:38.750 --> 00:39:43.889
and the author is translating it for us. Exactly.

00:39:44.409 --> 00:39:48.070
Yeah, there's a bit where... So some of my favourite

00:39:48.070 --> 00:39:51.650
ones are... There's a word we use, sylphlae.

00:39:52.369 --> 00:39:56.019
Sylphlae is the process of going up. above ground

00:39:56.019 --> 00:39:59.659
in order to feed and the fact that it's given

00:39:59.659 --> 00:40:04.699
this special word beyond the word graze which

00:40:04.699 --> 00:40:07.679
seems like the obvious translation it sort of

00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:09.219
goes to show that this is actually something

00:40:09.219 --> 00:40:11.500
that has like its culturally significance to

00:40:11.500 --> 00:40:14.460
the rabbits going up in order to do this is an

00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:17.880
important cultural process as well as just a

00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:21.079
sort of natural and biologically important one

00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.800
I’d imagine just this is me kind of going off

00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:27.139
book here a bit but like that would be massive

00:40:27.139 --> 00:40:28.940
because that's ultimately when a rabbit's most

00:40:28.940 --> 00:40:31.699
exposed and most at risk it's like this natural

00:40:31.699 --> 00:40:34.059
thing you have to do but you're inherently taking

00:40:34.059 --> 00:40:38.119
a massive risk to do it watering hole if this

00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:41.280
was a book you know set in the african savannah

00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:44.739
whatever animal they choose to um choose to write

00:40:44.739 --> 00:40:47.059
about sylph lay would be going to the watering

00:40:47.059 --> 00:40:50.719
hole and braving the the lions and the hyenas

00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:53.670
and the crocodiles Oh, yes, that reads across

00:40:53.670 --> 00:40:56.369
nicely. Oh, there's another good one, which is,

00:40:56.449 --> 00:40:59.329
I’ve forgotten the word. Maybe you can remember

00:40:59.329 --> 00:41:02.269
it, Duncan, but all predators are referred to

00:41:02.269 --> 00:41:05.530
as allele. That's it, it's Elil. And Elil

00:41:05.530 --> 00:41:08.710
means all predators. So all birds of prey, all

00:41:08.710 --> 00:41:11.670
foxes, all that, they're all Elil. That's why

00:41:11.670 --> 00:41:14.929
you need to differentiate. They are a fact. It

00:41:14.929 --> 00:41:18.369
reminds me, this is really interesting, Duncan,

00:41:18.530 --> 00:41:22.599
that... Do you know what the word wolf means?

00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:25.559
Like, when you go back to its origin? Oh, God.

00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:28.300
No, I do not know the etymology of... Or can

00:41:28.300 --> 00:41:32.139
I guess? Is it kind of like Nordic in origin?

00:41:33.380 --> 00:41:37.340
Well, it's... The direct way in which we get

00:41:37.340 --> 00:41:41.960
the word wolf is Germanic, yes. But it does go

00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:44.300
back, I think, to a Proto-Indoeuropean root.

00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:50.159
Oh, okay. Does it just mean... Oh, what would

00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.199
be a good guess here? All the signs are

00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:57.000
just being threat or scary? Not far off, Duncan.

00:41:57.460 --> 00:42:04.039
Not far off. It means “horrid thing.” So the word

00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:07.599
wolf kind of just means monster. It doesn't mean

00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:11.679
dog-like creature. It means “watch out. There's

00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:15.920
bad animals around.” And the interesting thing

00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:18.500
is that if you go to, if you go, like you just

00:42:18.500 --> 00:42:20.880
said, to Nordic languages, they have two words

00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:24.000
for wolf. One of them is the one I just mentioned.

00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:29.079
It's Ulfr, which became wolf. And that's, you

00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:31.699
know, it's a bad connotation, but it can be good.

00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:35.280
Like you can have, your name could be Ulfr something,

00:42:35.500 --> 00:42:38.260
like wolf spear. And that's cool because that

00:42:38.260 --> 00:42:41.510
means like I’m a wolf. defending my pack you

00:42:41.510 --> 00:42:45.070
know like I’m a wolf to uh to to other people

00:42:45.070 --> 00:42:48.610
i I’m very fierce but i have a second word which

00:42:48.610 --> 00:42:51.309
is I’m gonna struggle to pronounce this with

00:42:51.309 --> 00:42:55.250
the right the right rolling of the r vargr and

00:42:55.250 --> 00:42:59.369
where Duncan do we see the word Vargr which

00:42:59.369 --> 00:43:04.010
is the more dark foreboding which comes basically

00:43:04.010 --> 00:43:07.329
from the word for outcast like the wolves that

00:43:07.329 --> 00:43:11.469
don't become dogs basically It shows up in the

00:43:11.469 --> 00:43:15.570
word warg. That's why Tolkien chose to call the

00:43:15.570 --> 00:43:18.949
evil wolves in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit

00:43:18.949 --> 00:43:22.690
wargs, not wolves, because he's saying they're

00:43:22.690 --> 00:43:27.670
bad wolves. I’ve just got such a jigsaw pieces

00:43:27.670 --> 00:43:31.110
clicking together kind of moment there. I love

00:43:31.110 --> 00:43:33.090
the origin of the words. And it's fascinating.

00:43:33.329 --> 00:43:37.289
One more thing I’ll say. On that same line, you

00:43:37.289 --> 00:43:39.780
can be called... Something that relates to Ulf.

00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:43.260
But there are no names that come from Vargr.

00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:47.239
They just don't exist. And one more thing. Sorry,

00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:50.239
one more thing. You can see more evidence of...

00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:54.920
You can see more evidence of wolf not meaning

00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:58.639
dog -like creature. Because in one of the stories

00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:02.780
of Ragnarök, the great Midgard serpent Jörmungandr

00:44:02.780 --> 00:44:06.039
is referred to as a wolf. Okay, just to refer

00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:09.739
to it as a bad creature. Yeah. Well, everyone,

00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:11.420
I hope you enjoyed Geordie's special subject

00:44:11.420 --> 00:44:15.780
on Mastermind. Join us next week where I’ll be

00:44:15.780 --> 00:44:18.300
doing my subject one day. No, that's really cool

00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:21.139
to hear. Duncan, we both know your special subject

00:44:21.139 --> 00:44:24.840
on Mastermind would be Conan the Barbarian. You're

00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:27.380
absolutely right. Can I just take this moment

00:44:27.380 --> 00:44:28.480
actually while talking about the pronunciation

00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:31.480
of words? Mate, did you listen to the audiobook

00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:35.480
this time? I did. I listened to the audiobook

00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:38.800
as well. Who'd voice your one? Peter Capaldi?

00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:44.000
Peter Capaldi. Absolutely amazing. He did a great

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.219
job. Shit audiobook, though, but he did a great

00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:53.179
job. His natural, I don't know, Scottish kind

00:44:53.179 --> 00:44:55.960
of tones throughout just rang true. He really

00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:59.960
gives it his all. The tick that I felt when he

00:44:59.960 --> 00:45:03.940
was talking about the... You know, the rabbit's

00:45:03.940 --> 00:45:06.840
culture or the stories of... I don't know if

00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:11.820
I can get this one right. Also, if we pronounce

00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:13.860
aim for this wrong, you can just lay the blame

00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:16.500
at Peter CapaldI’s feet because we're just copying

00:45:16.500 --> 00:45:19.880
him. The guy went so hard on this. I actually

00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:22.079
told my partner multiple points. I’m like, this

00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:25.559
is... This actually is maybe my third favourite

00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:29.300
thing he's ever done. In terms of his works.

00:45:29.420 --> 00:45:31.360
He did the thick of it, he's done Doctor Who,

00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:33.960
and now I will always remember him as the guy

00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:36.840
who did Watership Down. Duncan, did you ever

00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:40.980
watch that one season of Torchwood that was actually

00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:44.239
good? I mean, the short answer is no. I watched

00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:46.260
the very first season of Torchwood when it first

00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:48.340
aired, and I remember just sitting there thinking,

00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:53.150
what is this? This isn't Doctor Who. Mum, should

00:45:53.150 --> 00:45:55.750
I be watching this? It's very strange. There's

00:45:55.750 --> 00:45:59.369
one season, which is like one extended mini -arc.

00:45:59.989 --> 00:46:03.809
It's called Children of Earth. Peter Capaldi

00:46:03.809 --> 00:46:07.889
plays this minor British diplomat in it, which

00:46:07.889 --> 00:46:09.730
is very funny when he's going to go on to become

00:46:09.730 --> 00:46:12.829
the Doctor, and it's set in the same universe.

00:46:13.190 --> 00:46:15.650
But that's fantastic, and he does a very good

00:46:15.650 --> 00:46:19.250
job in that. Dark as hell, though. It's a very

00:46:19.250 --> 00:46:24.260
grim series. We're distracted. Peter Pahody did

00:46:24.260 --> 00:46:26.199
a great job in his audiobook, but the audiobook

00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:28.599
itself is actually really poorly put together.

00:46:28.780 --> 00:46:32.400
There are numerous places where audio just vanishes.

00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:37.840
Like, um, this is like, this is like the first

00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.500
couple of episodes of this podcast where I was

00:46:40.500 --> 00:46:44.599
just like accidentally snipping into like previous

00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:46.780
sentences and I had to go back and change it,

00:46:46.860 --> 00:46:50.199
but no one has gone back to fix this. Uh, pretty,

00:46:50.300 --> 00:46:53.139
pretty inexcusable. Oh, definitely, in a professional

00:46:53.139 --> 00:46:55.699
production. But not a takeaway from his performance.

00:46:56.079 --> 00:46:58.679
He's an underrated Doctor Who. Love me Peter

00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:02.820
McCordy. So, Geordie, I feel like there's two

00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:04.699
directions I want to take things now. There's

00:47:04.699 --> 00:47:07.079
the next step in the rabbit's journey, and I

00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:08.539
really want to talk about actually getting to

00:47:08.539 --> 00:47:10.739
Watership Down. And I think what most people

00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:13.019
coming to this would argue is sort of the main

00:47:13.019 --> 00:47:16.519
plot of the book. But I also want to talk about

00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:20.619
Big Wig. And I feel like... What's the best approach?

00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:23.639
Do we go through the narrative and talk about

00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:25.659
him when we get to his special double agent moment?

00:47:25.900 --> 00:47:29.159
Or do we just get Big Wig out there? Because Big Wig

00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:33.400
is the man. I think we've got to talk about Big Wig

00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:38.519
because I was really surprised by the character

00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:41.800
of Big Wig when he first shows up. He doesn't

00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:43.579
even seem like he's going to be a main character.

00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:46.679
He seems like he's just going to be a problem.

00:47:47.369 --> 00:47:50.250
He seems like a middle management guy that you

00:47:50.250 --> 00:47:52.550
have to sort of get past. Like the story equivalent

00:47:52.550 --> 00:47:57.409
to a mini -boss. But weirdly enough, Big Wig joins

00:47:57.409 --> 00:47:59.929
the crew right from the start. He's like the

00:47:59.929 --> 00:48:03.369
third member. And he stays the third member throughout.

00:48:03.750 --> 00:48:07.530
And he only gets more concrete in that role.

00:48:08.030 --> 00:48:11.570
So the character Big Wig, he is an original home

00:48:11.570 --> 00:48:13.610
warren. Which 5 has the whole vision about them

00:48:13.610 --> 00:48:16.130
having to leave. He's kind of the... door guard

00:48:16.130 --> 00:48:20.110
for the robin's leader who does have a name i

00:48:20.110 --> 00:48:25.929
have gotten it the rare thura three error yeah

00:48:25.929 --> 00:48:29.090
it's right it's three a rah because just like

00:48:29.090 --> 00:48:32.650
Hazel becomes Hazelrah he's three a rah makes

00:48:32.650 --> 00:48:35.750
perfect sense Big Wig is a member of the upper

00:48:35.750 --> 00:48:38.980
echelon We're introduced to this idea right from

00:48:38.980 --> 00:48:42.219
the start. Fiverr and Hazel are young, small

00:48:42.219 --> 00:48:45.300
rabbits, and they don't belong to the upper sect

00:48:45.300 --> 00:48:49.219
of rabbit kind, which is based on age and physical

00:48:49.219 --> 00:48:54.219
strength. So, Big Wig is important and has authority

00:48:54.219 --> 00:48:58.219
because he's a very big and tough rabbit. And

00:48:58.219 --> 00:48:59.900
I think he's often portrayed at the very start,

00:48:59.940 --> 00:49:03.199
at least. Maybe not the brightest? Like, he's

00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:06.820
the big muscular bodyguard. But he's not a decision

00:49:06.820 --> 00:49:10.280
maker. Yeah, he's bullheaded. Keeley, he's...

00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:16.340
Keeley? Yeah, Kee... Most importantly, he's not

00:49:16.340 --> 00:49:19.920
a decision maker. He's not a leader. He's upper

00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.460
echelons, but he still ultimately follows orders.

00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:26.280
So when he actually breaks out from this and

00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.440
follows Hazel, that's like his first real, like,

00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:32.360
I’m going my own way moment. But he still represents

00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:36.340
a threat because, and Hazel's anxious about this

00:49:36.340 --> 00:49:40.780
as well, because he has like the presumed authority

00:49:40.780 --> 00:49:43.719
of previously belonging to like this upper class

00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:46.820
of rabbits. He's physically bigger and stronger.

00:49:47.019 --> 00:49:50.519
He's very bullheaded. Like he could very easily

00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:55.000
take control. of rabbit kind, and we see Hazel

00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:58.099
is shrewd enough to realise that this could happen,

00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:00.900
and therefore has to be very delicate around

00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:05.079
the way he does things. He can't just say, I’m

00:50:05.079 --> 00:50:07.539
in charge, I’ve got an idea, we're going to do

00:50:07.539 --> 00:50:10.480
it this way, because he is rightfully concerned

00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:14.519
that Big Wig would disagree with him, and that

00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:17.940
would cause a splinter within the group. Now

00:50:17.940 --> 00:50:20.360
I feel like we're right back in Walking Dead

00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:25.239
territory. and although Hazel has this fear and

00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:28.679
i think from my perspective rightly at the start

00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:32.039
i actually think very quickly once you get to

00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:36.639
like know where Big Wig is at he's pretty happy

00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:41.400
to like he looks up to Hazel in a begrudging

00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:45.000
way maybe to a point but i think he knows that

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:48.619
Hazel's got the right ideas well at first there's

00:50:48.619 --> 00:50:53.159
a lot of knocking heads because Big Wig is this

00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:56.360
um you know he's this bullheaded character think

00:50:56.360 --> 00:51:00.400
straight ahead he's very dismissive of um other

00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:02.460
rabbits you know trying to come up with their

00:51:02.460 --> 00:51:05.659
own ideas like he doesn't like when blackberry

00:51:05.659 --> 00:51:08.849
is like um has this idea And this is the thing

00:51:08.849 --> 00:51:11.409
that actually really projected this into a fantasy

00:51:11.409 --> 00:51:14.250
novel for me, where a rabbit figures out how

00:51:14.250 --> 00:51:17.449
to make a raft out of wood, and like, okay, yeah,

00:51:17.570 --> 00:51:20.250
we're not, this is not about rabbits, this is

00:51:20.250 --> 00:51:23.110
about something else. He's very dismissive of

00:51:23.110 --> 00:51:25.389
this idea to try and be clever, but there's this

00:51:25.389 --> 00:51:27.469
very pivotal moment that happens right after

00:51:27.469 --> 00:51:30.389
that, where Big Wig is opposed to this idea, he

00:51:30.389 --> 00:51:33.989
just wants him to just muscle on and do it. But

00:51:33.989 --> 00:51:36.789
once they do start to cross the river, Big Wig

00:51:36.789 --> 00:51:40.599
jumps in, at the last, and he uses his strength

00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:44.500
to push the raft across. And it's complete, it

00:51:44.500 --> 00:51:48.019
comes out of nowhere. There's no point up to

00:51:48.019 --> 00:51:51.420
now that you get the idea that he would in any

00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:54.820
way be, you know, altruistic, that he would be

00:51:54.820 --> 00:51:58.699
selfless. But actually, Big Wig's first instinct

00:51:58.699 --> 00:52:02.559
is do the right thing. He's a simple, slightly

00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:06.349
thuggish character. But he actually is, you know,

00:52:06.349 --> 00:52:08.650
he's pointed exactly in the right direction.

00:52:08.690 --> 00:52:11.550
He cares. That's why I just love him so. So I

00:52:11.550 --> 00:52:14.130
have this moment, like, after we kind of talk

00:52:14.130 --> 00:52:16.150
about each one in turn, I’m just once again like,

00:52:16.289 --> 00:52:19.670
oh, I really like this character. I enjoyed hanging

00:52:19.670 --> 00:52:22.969
out with these characters. That cannot be reiterated

00:52:22.969 --> 00:52:24.690
enough. And I think that's a good example of

00:52:24.690 --> 00:52:27.630
his kind of progression. Yeah. All right. So

00:52:27.630 --> 00:52:31.550
let's not get too stuck on Big Wig now. because

00:52:31.550 --> 00:52:34.550
I feel like if we want to properly discuss his

00:52:34.550 --> 00:52:37.289
growth and the way in which he serves the story,

00:52:37.449 --> 00:52:39.670
we'll need to talk about the end of the book

00:52:39.670 --> 00:52:42.909
first. So let's try and catch up to that point

00:52:42.909 --> 00:52:47.590
before we do that. So, Watership Down. Right.

00:52:47.610 --> 00:52:51.070
They go out looking for a new home, and they

00:52:51.070 --> 00:52:55.769
find one in a place called Watership Down. They

00:52:55.769 --> 00:52:58.909
find, like, this safe place at the top of a hill,

00:52:59.050 --> 00:53:01.730
and... because we've become familiar with rabbit

00:53:01.730 --> 00:53:05.510
culture and the characters, we understand why

00:53:05.510 --> 00:53:09.030
this place works, why it's impactful, why it's

00:53:09.030 --> 00:53:12.550
exciting for them to have found this spot. More

00:53:12.550 --> 00:53:17.849
than that, it represents this revolution for

00:53:17.849 --> 00:53:20.630
the characters because they've escaped an old

00:53:20.630 --> 00:53:24.090
society which had a set way of doing things and

00:53:24.090 --> 00:53:26.460
they've learnt things along their journey. about

00:53:26.460 --> 00:53:29.780
each other. Hazel's now very much in charge and

00:53:29.780 --> 00:53:32.800
is, like, respected a lot by the other rabbits

00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:37.360
for his, um, for his guidance. And they also

00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:40.360
start to do things weirdly. You know, like, they

00:53:40.360 --> 00:53:44.300
copy the design of the weird rabbits and make

00:53:44.300 --> 00:53:46.380
something they call the honeycomb, where they

00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:49.800
make a big interior space near Warren where they

00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:52.460
can have, like, community meetings, which they

00:53:52.460 --> 00:53:54.989
never would have done before. But then disaster

00:53:54.989 --> 00:53:59.349
strikes Dordy for you see they realise something.

00:53:59.449 --> 00:54:01.809
Something horrific. Something that will throw

00:54:01.809 --> 00:54:04.889
the future of their warren and watershed down

00:54:04.889 --> 00:54:08.829
into absolute doubt. They ain't got no does.

00:54:09.409 --> 00:54:12.269
No does! I think this is a fantastically rapid

00:54:12.269 --> 00:54:17.230
issue. I don't know how to describe it. It's...

00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:19.659
It's their favourite thing to do is hang out

00:54:19.659 --> 00:54:22.440
with their does. I mean, I guess when they left

00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:24.519
the war and it was very much a bros before does

00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:26.420
situation, but now they have to think about the

00:54:26.420 --> 00:54:28.059
future. I will just say this now and I don't

00:54:28.059 --> 00:54:31.400
want to dwell on it. I think there's kind of

00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:33.940
a sexist issue of this on the book. Like the

00:54:33.940 --> 00:54:37.340
female characters are definitely treated as secondary

00:54:37.340 --> 00:54:40.780
throughout in terms of the agency they have,

00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:44.630
which is next to none. Oh yeah. And the way even

00:54:44.630 --> 00:54:47.909
our main characters treat them, they really don't

00:54:47.909 --> 00:54:50.510
treat them a lot as characters in the same way.

00:54:50.829 --> 00:54:52.730
There's many times where they refer to them just

00:54:52.730 --> 00:54:56.030
as collectively as their does or, oh, it was

00:54:56.030 --> 00:54:59.989
a doe. Don't worry. That's true. I think on one

00:54:59.989 --> 00:55:02.309
hand, a book is reckoning of us in a way where

00:55:02.309 --> 00:55:04.309
it's like there's bits in the book is like almost

00:55:04.309 --> 00:55:06.610
apologetics being like, now you must forgive

00:55:06.610 --> 00:55:08.230
them talking like this. But this is just how

00:55:08.230 --> 00:55:10.849
rabbits talk. And on one hand, you're like, I

00:55:10.849 --> 00:55:13.340
guess this. Almost makes sense in that you're

00:55:13.340 --> 00:55:18.079
creating a dynamic rabbit society. And maybe

00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:23.139
rabbits are patriarchal. I don't know. But yes,

00:55:23.500 --> 00:55:25.360
it's still a book about intelligent rabbits.

00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:29.039
There are no female rabbits on the initial expedition.

00:55:29.860 --> 00:55:32.460
They're all boys. I actually was really surprised

00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:36.260
by this. I just got the impression maybe it's

00:55:36.260 --> 00:55:40.519
because I had seen little snippets. of the Watership

00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:42.920
Down movie, and I think some of them are girls

00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:48.300
in that. But yes, they set out on this expedition,

00:55:48.539 --> 00:55:52.179
they have to collect does, and you're right,

00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:55.679
the does are very much treated kind of like chattel

00:55:55.679 --> 00:55:59.460
in this. They're something to be exchanged. It's

00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:04.070
like an extension of... you know the knight rescuing

00:56:04.070 --> 00:56:06.090
a princess from the tower and then receiving

00:56:06.090 --> 00:56:09.309
marriage in return it's like that on like a much

00:56:09.309 --> 00:56:12.670
larger scale and as we said like you can play

00:56:12.670 --> 00:56:16.210
this off oh it's it's rabbit culture at the same

00:56:16.210 --> 00:56:18.989
time you just could go yeah you've given rabbits

00:56:18.989 --> 00:56:21.809
an entire folklore and history you could have

00:56:21.809 --> 00:56:24.329
written it elsewhere you know you didn't have

00:56:24.329 --> 00:56:28.119
to do it this way i think it's would have been

00:56:28.119 --> 00:56:30.619
nicer you know the same fundamentals could have

00:56:30.619 --> 00:56:34.480
driven this story of them you know needing more

00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:36.780
people to be with and still giving a little bit

00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:39.219
more agency even if in the original group there

00:56:39.219 --> 00:56:42.780
was just one doe and they're like well we can't

00:56:42.780 --> 00:56:46.199
do it with one yeah it would have functioned

00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:50.599
and yeah or even it's a mixed gender group and

00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:53.280
it says well we need more people we need more

00:56:53.280 --> 00:56:56.980
rabbits and like most of them might be doe But

00:56:56.980 --> 00:56:59.119
you could be like, we just need more people in

00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:03.199
general. And then, like, then carry on. Now,

00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:06.320
I will say that they are at least saying, like,

00:57:06.380 --> 00:57:09.159
it's not like they're going out and kidnapping

00:57:09.159 --> 00:57:12.860
does for their own gain. It's very much, and

00:57:12.860 --> 00:57:16.239
a priority is placed on establishing this, that

00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:19.079
this is good for the does, that they are being

00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:22.699
rescued, that they want to be saved. Because

00:57:22.699 --> 00:57:25.280
there are times the way it's written that it

00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:27.880
feels almost like a Viking raid, the way they're

00:57:27.880 --> 00:57:29.579
talking about this. It sounds like, you know,

00:57:29.619 --> 00:57:34.119
like the rape of the Sabine women. But that's

00:57:34.119 --> 00:57:37.239
not the case in the... That's not the case in

00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:40.000
which it's written. This is a daring rescue for

00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:43.019
a bunch of damsels in distress. That being said,

00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:46.559
he really ups the kill count once the does are

00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:50.159
in hand. You know, like... Once he gets more

00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:52.300
rabbits to play with, Richard Adams is like,

00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:54.360
I haven't killed any rabbits in a while. And

00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:56.860
then he starts popping them off one by one. Oh

00:57:56.860 --> 00:57:59.800
yeah, it is a bit of a bloodbath near the end.

00:58:00.219 --> 00:58:02.219
And totally, we keep talking about needing to

00:58:02.219 --> 00:58:04.860
rescue these doves. Who do we need to rescue

00:58:04.860 --> 00:58:09.420
them from, though? Who's our villain? Yes. So,

00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:14.710
again, quite, um, quite... walking dead -ish

00:58:14.710 --> 00:58:18.090
you know the main threat to the rabbits is not

00:58:18.090 --> 00:58:23.369
uh the allele and it's not humanity it's um it's

00:58:23.369 --> 00:58:25.690
their own kind which is always where the greatest

00:58:25.690 --> 00:58:28.849
horror comes from the great struggle in this

00:58:28.849 --> 00:58:31.750
book is the establishment of a new society that's

00:58:31.750 --> 00:58:34.269
the other thing that makes this feel quite post

00:58:34.269 --> 00:58:38.050
-apocalyptic Not just because their original

00:58:38.050 --> 00:58:42.210
home is destroyed, but a lot of the fun in this

00:58:42.210 --> 00:58:45.670
book is that it's about a journey from danger

00:58:45.670 --> 00:58:48.769
to a safe haven, and then the defense of that

00:58:48.769 --> 00:58:51.610
safe haven, and the construction of a new and

00:58:51.610 --> 00:58:55.329
hopefully better society. That's very familiar

00:58:55.329 --> 00:58:59.969
in post -apocalyptic stuff. And likewise, the

00:58:59.969 --> 00:59:04.309
warlord character is very familiar. Woundwart.

00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:10.679
This guy, he is everything. He's big, he is scary.

00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:13.460
The animated movie, by the way, makes this rabbit

00:59:13.460 --> 00:59:17.239
terrifying. Not that he isn't in the book, but

00:59:17.239 --> 00:59:20.420
gosh, when someone sets an artist like, draw

00:59:20.420 --> 00:59:24.760
me a scary rabbit, that man nailed, that person

00:59:24.760 --> 00:59:29.559
nailed the job. But yes, he's the warlord, he's

00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:32.420
the governor. And he is fucking scary. Even in

00:59:32.420 --> 00:59:38.420
the book. Woundwart is... When the book was first

00:59:38.420 --> 00:59:40.280
described to me, someone once described him as

00:59:40.280 --> 00:59:43.699
a Napoleonic figure. That's not quite right.

00:59:43.960 --> 00:59:46.559
But he is... It is a weird thing to say, but

00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:50.199
he is a terrifying fascist rabbit. You know,

00:59:50.219 --> 00:59:53.340
he believes in might makes right. He's an authoritarian.

00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:59.699
You know, he rules over his warren with an iron

00:59:59.699 --> 01:00:04.230
fist. And he imposes, like, these hard rules

01:00:04.230 --> 01:00:06.630
on the way in which characters can live their

01:00:06.630 --> 01:00:09.250
lives. And this is the bit where it's like, Richard

01:00:09.250 --> 01:00:11.269
Adams, why do you keep telling me this is not

01:00:11.269 --> 01:00:15.380
an allegory? Like, like... You just have some

01:00:15.380 --> 01:00:20.079
confidence, man. You've got to stand up. It's

01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:23.699
okay to be anti -fascist. It's all right. You've

01:00:23.699 --> 01:00:26.519
got a little rabbit Mussolini. It's okay. I think

01:00:26.519 --> 01:00:30.079
it's okay to say that this book isn't a one -to

01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:34.079
-one to be mapped over one specific event of

01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:36.820
the rise of fascism, but more of a breakdown.

01:00:38.380 --> 01:00:41.820
of the ideology in a more general sense, but

01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:45.780
even that I’m not 100 % on. Yes, yeah, but when

01:00:45.780 --> 01:00:49.320
you say that, there's a bit in one of the stories,

01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:52.099
so there's many times throughout the text that

01:00:52.099 --> 01:00:54.659
it takes a diversion from the story to tell us

01:00:54.659 --> 01:00:56.940
a bit of rabbit folklore. Dandelion will tell

01:00:56.940 --> 01:01:00.659
a story of the great El-ahrairah, who is the great...

01:01:00.829 --> 01:01:04.289
rabbit hero of folklore. Like, he's like, um,

01:01:04.289 --> 01:01:06.769
the Br 'er Rabbit. He's like a trickster. He

01:01:06.769 --> 01:01:11.909
uses his cunning to outthink many, um, many adversaries

01:01:11.909 --> 01:01:14.769
and, um, wins, wins the day for rabbit kind,

01:01:15.070 --> 01:01:17.809
which normally involves stealing lettuce. In

01:01:17.809 --> 01:01:20.409
one of these stories, at the end, El-ahrairah,

01:01:20.510 --> 01:01:23.570
after going through a great ordeal after a rabbit

01:01:23.570 --> 01:01:28.880
war, He returns to rabbit civilization many years

01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:31.239
after this has taken place, and he meets a bunch

01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:34.619
of young rabbits who are like, oh, well, my,

01:01:34.739 --> 01:01:37.800
like, grandfather was fought in the rabbit war,

01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:40.119
but I don't think it was actually a big deal.

01:01:40.340 --> 01:01:43.539
And, you know, I think they basically make all

01:01:43.539 --> 01:01:45.320
of that stuff up anyway. I don't think anything

01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:49.420
especially important happened. And Richard Adams,

01:01:49.579 --> 01:01:53.199
a World War II veteran, writing... many years

01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:55.699
after the second world war in the 70s do you

01:01:55.699 --> 01:01:57.380
feel like you might have something to get off

01:01:57.380 --> 01:01:59.599
your chest that you're trying to express in this

01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:02.360
moment but this book is not an allegory right

01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:04.300
you don't have anything you want to say right

01:02:04.300 --> 01:02:07.280
now i i just don't understand he's not the only

01:02:07.280 --> 01:02:09.699
author that shies away from having their work

01:02:09.699 --> 01:02:12.840
called allegory and I’m like it's not a problem

01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:17.369
mate don't worry it's okay It can be very effective.

01:02:17.829 --> 01:02:20.969
Aliquot is a great tool to introduce these ideas

01:02:20.969 --> 01:02:25.090
and concepts to people while still shielding

01:02:25.090 --> 01:02:29.489
them from the truly incomprehensible awfulness

01:02:29.489 --> 01:02:35.010
that reality was. We'll get on that later. So

01:02:35.010 --> 01:02:36.929
back to one more. You're right. It is worth.

01:02:37.150 --> 01:02:42.909
He is the worst. And I do love him for it. This

01:02:42.909 --> 01:02:46.769
is a fantastic villain. It's great. Because he

01:02:46.769 --> 01:02:50.130
is so scary and he is so physically imposing.

01:02:50.570 --> 01:02:53.469
We said before that in rabbit society, might

01:02:53.469 --> 01:02:56.769
makes right. He is the biggest, strongest, most

01:02:56.769 --> 01:03:01.409
aggressive rabbit. And as such, he rules over.

01:03:01.570 --> 01:03:06.050
But more than that, his ideology stems from this

01:03:06.050 --> 01:03:11.389
fusion between natural rabbit instinct and a

01:03:11.389 --> 01:03:14.989
dark... backstory where like he's like the last

01:03:14.989 --> 01:03:19.849
survivor of a group of wild rabbits killed i

01:03:19.849 --> 01:03:21.869
think it was by a weasel or a stoat i forget

01:03:21.869 --> 01:03:26.769
which and then he's raised from um he's picked

01:03:26.769 --> 01:03:29.309
back up after his injuries by a like a human

01:03:29.309 --> 01:03:34.150
vet and the surviving this like tragedy turns

01:03:34.150 --> 01:03:36.230
him into this aggressive character. And at one

01:03:36.230 --> 01:03:38.690
point, someone reflects later that the thing

01:03:38.690 --> 01:03:41.449
that makes him so fierce and so dangerous is

01:03:41.449 --> 01:03:44.190
that he's more afraid of running away than fighting.

01:03:44.369 --> 01:03:47.570
So he will always fight. I also just adore the

01:03:47.570 --> 01:03:51.429
idea that at one point, this horrific villain

01:03:51.429 --> 01:03:54.309
was just a cute little bunny in a vet's hands.

01:03:55.070 --> 01:03:58.329
He was like, go on, be free, little one. Go off

01:03:58.329 --> 01:03:59.809
back into the wilderness. And at no point did

01:03:59.809 --> 01:04:03.929
that vet thinking, ah. my little fascist dictator

01:04:03.929 --> 01:04:10.630
off he goes i um i do what i do like in this

01:04:10.630 --> 01:04:15.050
book is that is how up for a fight most of rabbits

01:04:15.050 --> 01:04:17.929
are or at least how up for a fight Woundwart

01:04:17.929 --> 01:04:22.030
and Big Wig are there's a bit where um Big Wig

01:04:22.030 --> 01:04:26.340
says after he like chases off a cat like When

01:04:26.340 --> 01:04:29.500
we have rabbit kittens, I’m going to train them

01:04:29.500 --> 01:04:33.139
to fight using that cat. And it has such a hilarious

01:04:33.139 --> 01:04:36.800
notion of a gang of violent rabbits showing up

01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:42.219
to beat the snot out of farm cats. And I like

01:04:42.219 --> 01:04:45.420
that attitude. I also really like about Woundwart.

01:04:46.099 --> 01:04:49.820
It's a nice little word. It's that he has this

01:04:49.820 --> 01:04:53.880
sort of warped worldview. But he also is still

01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:56.920
a character of principles. In his own twisted

01:04:56.920 --> 01:05:00.059
way, he does think he's doing things the right

01:05:00.059 --> 01:05:03.639
way. Oh, yeah. Everything he does is for self

01:05:03.639 --> 01:05:06.500
-preservation. Not just self -preservation, though,

01:05:06.519 --> 01:05:09.119
but the preservation of his society. Right, yes.

01:05:09.320 --> 01:05:12.579
Like, he believes in survival above all else.

01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:15.780
And he believes that, you know, what's it called?

01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:19.550
This is a very common phrase. It's an existential

01:05:19.550 --> 01:05:25.190
question and a question of existence. If we don't

01:05:25.190 --> 01:05:28.570
follow my rules, we'll all be wiped out. So everything

01:05:28.570 --> 01:05:32.030
I do is justified. It all says to the greater

01:05:32.030 --> 01:05:36.090
good. Exactly. So he can do these appalling things

01:05:36.090 --> 01:05:39.369
because it's all for the right reason. And his

01:05:39.369 --> 01:05:43.329
ideology can get folded into whatever shape he

01:05:43.329 --> 01:05:46.710
needs it to be. He wants vengeance. against people

01:05:46.710 --> 01:05:49.650
who stole his does, well, they represent a threat

01:05:49.650 --> 01:05:53.130
to me, so they must be wiped out. And the funny

01:05:53.130 --> 01:05:57.090
thing about it is that, like, his rabbits are

01:05:57.090 --> 01:06:00.969
set up as a, like, prominent physical threat

01:06:00.969 --> 01:06:05.170
to Hazel's rabbits. Hazel's rabbits have a couple

01:06:05.170 --> 01:06:08.969
of heavy hitters, like Silver and Big Wig, but

01:06:08.969 --> 01:06:13.619
pretty much every rabbit is, like, a step above

01:06:13.619 --> 01:06:17.840
the average in Hazel's group. And they're really

01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:20.659
good at tracking them down. So there is this

01:06:20.659 --> 01:06:24.960
actual ever -present sense of danger. After they

01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:29.039
escape, they're immediately on... After Big Wig's

01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:32.460
big escape from the enemy Warren, they're immediately

01:06:32.460 --> 01:06:37.519
on the run and losing rabbits because the fight

01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:40.699
and the chase is so intense. So let's just kind

01:06:40.699 --> 01:06:42.780
of run through the events when Hazel's group

01:06:42.780 --> 01:06:47.000
comes up against Woundwart. We have this initial

01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:48.840
interaction and Hazel's group initially go as

01:06:48.840 --> 01:06:51.280
sort of, you know, they go with peace. They're

01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:53.539
like, yo, can we trade? We just want a few does.

01:06:55.500 --> 01:06:58.320
How can we make this work? And Woundwart immediately

01:06:58.320 --> 01:07:02.619
pushes back on that quite violently. And so we

01:07:02.619 --> 01:07:05.139
get to the second plan. Yeah, he press gangs

01:07:05.139 --> 01:07:08.139
them into his own warren. He says, if you come

01:07:08.139 --> 01:07:10.960
into my territory, you belong to me. So we have

01:07:10.960 --> 01:07:13.000
this initial escape, and then they're all thinking,

01:07:13.099 --> 01:07:14.639
what do we do? And I quite like the fact that

01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:17.360
we get, once again, the clever ones, Blackberry.

01:07:18.519 --> 01:07:20.659
I think Fiverr has an input, comes up with this

01:07:20.659 --> 01:07:25.980
plan to send Big Wig in to pretend to be a lone

01:07:25.980 --> 01:07:31.469
wolf, a lone rabbit. who wants to sign up, who's

01:07:31.469 --> 01:07:34.190
big and strong, and is like, yeah, come on. You

01:07:34.190 --> 01:07:35.829
want me to join your group? I’m down with what

01:07:35.829 --> 01:07:38.650
you're selling. And then he's going to work from

01:07:38.650 --> 01:07:42.610
within to spring a mass escape. A great escape.

01:07:45.099 --> 01:07:47.500
and it's as we said before this bit is really

01:07:47.500 --> 01:07:49.920
exciting it's really daring it really feels like

01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:53.519
a spy narrative building trust from the inside

01:07:53.519 --> 01:07:56.840
not knowing who you can talk to there's a bit

01:07:56.840 --> 01:07:59.539
where like one of the rabbits who's being told

01:07:59.539 --> 01:08:02.539
about the escape plan is being interrogated so

01:08:02.539 --> 01:08:05.159
you have a moment of like one of our inner circles

01:08:05.159 --> 01:08:08.320
got busted by vickistapo and we need to launch

01:08:08.320 --> 01:08:12.199
our plans early Dramatic stuff. Really well written.

01:08:12.300 --> 01:08:14.500
Good stuff. Also, really just kind of brave,

01:08:14.579 --> 01:08:16.960
I think, from an authorship kind of standpoint.

01:08:17.220 --> 01:08:19.659
Because this is a fairly decent bit of the plot

01:08:19.659 --> 01:08:21.699
that we're not following who I would identify

01:08:21.699 --> 01:08:24.100
as our main character. Hazel is not in this bit.

01:08:24.300 --> 01:08:27.159
Yeah. He's not part of this adventure. We only

01:08:27.159 --> 01:08:30.479
get to see Hazel in a couple of little cutaways

01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:34.800
and always to hype up the drama and the excitement

01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:37.079
to be like, we haven't heard from Big Wig. He

01:08:37.079 --> 01:08:40.300
didn't report in. What's going on in there? And

01:08:40.300 --> 01:08:45.060
so it's used advantageously. We don't get to

01:08:45.060 --> 01:08:49.899
see Hazel and her crew nearly enough to ensure

01:08:49.899 --> 01:08:52.779
our confidence in the plan. It's like not seeing

01:08:52.779 --> 01:08:56.539
the shark in jaws, not knowing whether Big Wig's

01:08:56.539 --> 01:09:01.680
friends are going to be able to help. So we have

01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:05.039
finally the big escape scene. This might actually

01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:10.300
be my favourite action scene in the book. I love

01:09:10.300 --> 01:09:12.340
how they... It's very good. I agree. I wouldn't

01:09:12.340 --> 01:09:15.020
say it's my favourite, but yeah. Well, I like

01:09:15.020 --> 01:09:16.199
it how certain things come back because don't

01:09:16.199 --> 01:09:19.119
they, they escape down a river again. So it's

01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:20.979
that kind of call back to the earlier scene.

01:09:21.260 --> 01:09:26.539
You know, Big Wig has seen what works. It's something

01:09:26.539 --> 01:09:29.159
that kind of slightly confuses the local rabbits

01:09:29.159 --> 01:09:34.199
for at least a short while when they kind of

01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:36.930
make off down the river. And like I said, you

01:09:36.930 --> 01:09:38.829
don't know where they are. Exactly. There's this

01:09:38.829 --> 01:09:41.189
really great bit where they come up with this

01:09:41.189 --> 01:09:43.569
clever escape plan. And then there's this moment

01:09:43.569 --> 01:09:46.750
of, well, now what? Because, you know, it's out

01:09:46.750 --> 01:09:49.510
of the frying pan into the fire. They go down

01:09:49.510 --> 01:09:52.369
river and then their boat gets stuck. And then

01:09:52.369 --> 01:09:56.050
rabbits do not like to swim. It's very disadvantageous.

01:09:56.210 --> 01:09:58.229
And then there's this moment of having to solve

01:09:58.229 --> 01:10:02.829
this new problem. And I really like the way this

01:10:02.829 --> 01:10:05.800
tension is ramped up in this scene. But you're

01:10:05.800 --> 01:10:09.359
right, eventually they do get back and things

01:10:09.359 --> 01:10:11.800
get to develop further. Now, Geordi, this is

01:10:11.800 --> 01:10:15.180
what I really want to talk about. The enemy rabbits

01:10:15.180 --> 01:10:17.520
are then like, right, they've gone back, we've

01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:19.619
tracked them, they're at Watership Down, we're

01:10:19.619 --> 01:10:22.319
going to go and take them. And they send in,

01:10:22.340 --> 01:10:25.260
not Woundwart, but one of his captains, I think.

01:10:25.300 --> 01:10:29.729
Is it Capion? Campion. Campion. It's like I didn't

01:10:29.729 --> 01:10:32.489
actually hear someone say it this time, but then

01:10:32.489 --> 01:10:35.029
I wrote it down, and obviously then it has to

01:10:35.029 --> 01:10:38.909
go through my appalling dyslexic phonetic spelling,

01:10:39.050 --> 01:10:43.130
and I’m having to read it back to myself. Captain

01:10:43.130 --> 01:10:46.310
Campion. They discover that I watered it down,

01:10:46.470 --> 01:10:50.270
and we get this really cool mole dilemma. Such

01:10:50.270 --> 01:10:52.810
actually walking... Do you know what? This was

01:10:52.810 --> 01:10:54.390
clearly such a big inspiration on The Walking

01:10:54.390 --> 01:10:56.729
Dead than anyone's ever called it out for before.

01:10:56.930 --> 01:11:00.439
This is such a scene. where this patrol group,

01:11:00.619 --> 01:11:05.039
getting their water shit down, Hazel and F1 identifies

01:11:05.039 --> 01:11:08.159
them, and then they're like, we've got to kill

01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:11.039
them all, so they don't find out where we are.

01:11:11.939 --> 01:11:13.319
I can't understand the character that says this.

01:11:13.359 --> 01:11:18.159
It's not Black Bray. Who is it who's like, we

01:11:18.159 --> 01:11:21.020
need to kill them all? Maybe Silver? Silver's

01:11:21.020 --> 01:11:24.079
cool? I’ll go with Silver. Silver makes this

01:11:24.079 --> 01:11:27.439
cool. But Hazel, being our morally righteous

01:11:27.439 --> 01:11:33.199
person, Doesn't. And they eventually do... Woundwart

01:11:33.199 --> 01:11:36.279
and his men come back to Watership Down to take

01:11:36.279 --> 01:11:38.979
it. Actually, you know who it was? It was, um...

01:11:38.979 --> 01:11:41.600
It was, like, what is it called? Like, Blaggard.

01:11:41.680 --> 01:11:44.539
Like, the captive rabbit they rescued from, um...

01:11:44.539 --> 01:11:49.439
From the other Warren. Oh! Oh, from Woundwart's

01:11:49.439 --> 01:11:56.079
Warren. Yeah, it's, um... Blackavar. yeah he's

01:11:56.079 --> 01:11:57.939
the one who says that but yes you're right uh

01:11:57.939 --> 01:12:00.960
Woundwarts and his crew eventually like catch

01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:04.180
up to them they find warship down which they

01:12:04.180 --> 01:12:07.460
hoped they never would and um prepare for an

01:12:07.460 --> 01:12:12.159
a war like a proper rabbit war and there are

01:12:12.159 --> 01:12:15.159
lots of little moments in this climax which i

01:12:15.159 --> 01:12:18.539
think are just the most beautiful crescendos

01:12:18.539 --> 01:12:22.000
to these characters that we've seen develop over

01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:25.680
the course of the novel I think we get this,

01:12:25.779 --> 01:12:29.260
this climax. It's, it's, it's legitimately amazing.

01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:33.880
I once, I had high expectations of this scene

01:12:33.880 --> 01:12:38.159
because Duncan, once upon a time, I was on, uh,

01:12:38.380 --> 01:12:41.359
I was on Reddit. I was on the fantasy subreddit

01:12:41.359 --> 01:12:45.300
and someone said, what is the best battle in

01:12:45.300 --> 01:12:49.659
fantasy? And the top comment was, um, what was

01:12:49.659 --> 01:12:52.680
it? It would be, uh, Helm's Deep. And then someone

01:12:52.680 --> 01:12:55.210
brought up, The next one was the battle from

01:12:55.210 --> 01:12:58.109
the heroes. And the third one was like some big

01:12:58.109 --> 01:13:00.270
battle in the wheel of time, whatever that is.

01:13:00.670 --> 01:13:04.130
And then the fourth from the top was the battle

01:13:04.130 --> 01:13:07.250
for Watership Down. I’m tempted to put this above

01:13:07.250 --> 01:13:13.170
Helm's Deep. Maybe I need to reread it. It's

01:13:13.170 --> 01:13:17.409
definitely clearer. Yeah, it's so exciting. It's

01:13:17.409 --> 01:13:20.960
so dramatic. It really, it's so full of dread.

01:13:21.079 --> 01:13:24.819
It really does feel like, my God, how are they

01:13:24.819 --> 01:13:27.920
going to get out of this? You really feel like

01:13:27.920 --> 01:13:32.079
everything is on the line. And it's all of these,

01:13:32.100 --> 01:13:34.640
we have three main characters, basically, and

01:13:34.640 --> 01:13:37.319
all of them get to contribute in a way that feels

01:13:37.319 --> 01:13:41.939
unique to them and feels perilous. Fiverr has

01:13:41.939 --> 01:13:46.600
this really strange contribution, which is...

01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:51.579
It really highlights and taps into this ephemeral

01:13:51.579 --> 01:13:54.779
magic. You know, we know that Fiverr has these

01:13:54.779 --> 01:13:58.640
strange instincts. And the way he contributes

01:13:58.640 --> 01:14:00.720
to the final battle, despite being the smallest

01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:04.760
rabbit, is he, like, freaks out. And he makes

01:14:04.760 --> 01:14:07.699
this, like, I was supposed to say inhuman, un

01:14:07.699 --> 01:14:11.100
-rabbit -like noise. He makes this strange bellow

01:14:11.100 --> 01:14:14.909
where he says, Get out! Get out! and then like

01:14:14.909 --> 01:14:17.789
he gets into such a fit because of this this

01:14:17.789 --> 01:14:21.210
this this great effort but he like collapses

01:14:21.210 --> 01:14:25.649
and he like almost dies from stress but the sound

01:14:25.649 --> 01:14:28.649
that this makes we've glossed over the fact that

01:14:28.649 --> 01:14:31.930
like the thing that makes Hazel's crew unique

01:14:31.930 --> 01:14:35.149
is that they collaborate with non -rabbits They

01:14:35.149 --> 01:14:38.430
have a seagull friend called Kaha, and the enemy

01:14:38.430 --> 01:14:41.590
rabbits know this, so when they hear this noise

01:14:41.590 --> 01:14:44.210
from down below, they go, oh my god, they've

01:14:44.210 --> 01:14:47.869
got another, like, alien on their side. What

01:14:47.869 --> 01:14:50.069
the hell's going on? And it freaks out the enemy,

01:14:50.170 --> 01:14:52.729
and it slows them down. A really nice kind of

01:14:52.729 --> 01:14:54.609
development, by the way, which we have Saisha

01:14:54.609 --> 01:14:56.869
kind of glossed over, is the fact that, you know,

01:14:56.890 --> 01:14:59.170
Hazel's group is doing things differently, and

01:14:59.170 --> 01:15:02.470
that's why they're so effective. Yes, Fiverr

01:15:02.470 --> 01:15:03.989
gets this great moment where he kind of digs

01:15:03.989 --> 01:15:08.380
deep. Big week's moment. Oh, my God. Going for

01:15:08.380 --> 01:15:11.420
the fight. Standing his ground. This is last

01:15:11.420 --> 01:15:15.300
stand territory. JT now might be one of my favourite

01:15:15.300 --> 01:15:18.640
moments of a warrior going, right, there's the

01:15:18.640 --> 01:15:21.720
line in the sand. No one's going to cross it

01:15:21.720 --> 01:15:25.220
while I’m still alive. Absolutely. It's totally

01:15:25.220 --> 01:15:30.989
classic stuff in its own way. And yet. Something

01:15:30.989 --> 01:15:34.529
about this scene just makes it stand out above

01:15:34.529 --> 01:15:39.109
all the other hold the line scenes to me. Because

01:15:39.109 --> 01:15:41.989
the way in which this works, the invasion happens,

01:15:42.090 --> 01:15:44.270
they're outnumbered, they're outgunned because

01:15:44.270 --> 01:15:47.810
all these rabbits are really big and mean. Hazel

01:15:47.810 --> 01:15:53.130
comes up with one last plan and he tells Big Wig,

01:15:53.289 --> 01:15:56.770
Big Wig, stay here and don't let them pass until

01:15:56.770 --> 01:16:00.840
the plan comes through. Big Wig does not know

01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:02.739
what the plan is. There's no time to explain.

01:16:03.180 --> 01:16:05.460
Hazel and some other rabbits go tearing off.

01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:07.659
And we don't even get to know what the plan is.

01:16:07.779 --> 01:16:12.180
All we know is Big Wig has to stand here. And

01:16:12.180 --> 01:16:14.619
the first person to come in after him is Woundwart,

01:16:14.680 --> 01:16:17.920
the biggest, meanest, most vicious rabbit. It's

01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:20.479
waiting for the cavalry to come. It's my favourite

01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:24.750
fantasy trope. It's true. So... When Big Wig

01:16:24.750 --> 01:16:27.590
comes to the stand, there's a great deal of characterisation

01:16:27.590 --> 01:16:29.130
which really shows the different worldview here.

01:16:29.329 --> 01:16:31.710
And I want to really hype this up because I think

01:16:31.710 --> 01:16:35.529
it's so important to World of Warcraft's characterisation

01:16:35.529 --> 01:16:39.850
and Big Wig's character development. Big Wig

01:16:39.850 --> 01:16:43.670
puts up a really good fight. He stands his ground,

01:16:43.850 --> 01:16:46.689
he gives his all, and he almost, he's like torn

01:16:46.689 --> 01:16:49.189
to shreds in this fight. But he still forces.

01:16:49.889 --> 01:16:52.029
Woundwart back. Woundwart, for the first time

01:16:52.029 --> 01:16:57.310
ever, retreats from a fight. And Woundwart challenges

01:16:57.310 --> 01:17:01.010
him, wanting to understand, why don't you move?

01:17:01.109 --> 01:17:04.510
Why don't you get out of the way? And Big Wig

01:17:04.510 --> 01:17:07.430
says, simply, as though it's the most obvious

01:17:07.430 --> 01:17:10.609
thing in the world to him, my chief rabbit told

01:17:10.609 --> 01:17:14.369
me to stand my ground here, and I’m not going

01:17:14.369 --> 01:17:19.380
until he tells me otherwise. And how does Woundwart

01:17:19.380 --> 01:17:23.260
respond to this, Duncan? Woundwart, in his limited

01:17:23.260 --> 01:17:28.119
worldview, is just like, wait, Big Wig isn't the

01:17:28.119 --> 01:17:33.899
chief. If this is, like, how bad is this? How

01:17:33.899 --> 01:17:37.899
big and fierce must the boss be if Big Wig is

01:17:37.899 --> 01:17:42.039
taking orders? And that's the thing that really

01:17:42.039 --> 01:17:45.470
works about this scene. If... You know, he had

01:17:45.470 --> 01:17:49.069
a better philosophy. If Woundwart wasn't convinced

01:17:49.069 --> 01:17:53.510
in the power of right makes might, he would win.

01:17:53.689 --> 01:17:56.850
You know, his ideas are what failed him. It's

01:17:56.850 --> 01:17:58.750
a wonderful moment, but then we actually then

01:17:58.750 --> 01:18:03.229
do get Hazel's moment. Hazel's, remember he tears

01:18:03.229 --> 01:18:06.470
off with Blackberry, my man. I don't know, all

01:18:06.470 --> 01:18:08.869
of them are great. If anything, I think Silver,

01:18:09.069 --> 01:18:13.409
I think I maybe underappreciate. I agree. I think

01:18:13.409 --> 01:18:15.670
Silver really needed a moment. Yes, he's like

01:18:15.670 --> 01:18:19.770
one of the younger ones, isn't he? They go screaming

01:18:19.770 --> 01:18:23.050
off because, hey, there's a clever idea. And

01:18:23.050 --> 01:18:24.890
they go back to a farm they visited earlier.

01:18:25.310 --> 01:18:28.489
And they're going to... Basically, they're going

01:18:28.489 --> 01:18:33.569
to go and lure the dog to the battlefield. Somewhat,

01:18:33.569 --> 01:18:35.270
you could describe maybe as the nuclear option.

01:18:35.670 --> 01:18:38.409
Just as likely to harm everyone involved. Anyway.

01:18:40.250 --> 01:18:44.579
And... This is our climax. This is the cavalry

01:18:44.579 --> 01:18:48.420
arriving in this terrifying form. This great

01:18:48.420 --> 01:18:52.239
Labrador comes boarding onto the scene. And I

01:18:52.239 --> 01:18:56.020
really do think it's, I mean, it's tragic, sad,

01:18:56.340 --> 01:18:59.239
slightly, slightly humorous. Because we've been

01:18:59.239 --> 01:19:01.859
dealing with these big, burly, scary bunny rabbits.

01:19:02.500 --> 01:19:04.220
And there is a little bit when the dog shows

01:19:04.220 --> 01:19:05.880
up and you go, oh yeah, they're still just rabbits.

01:19:07.140 --> 01:19:08.760
Oh, I don't know, they're just getting slaughtered.

01:19:09.319 --> 01:19:11.399
I know. It's so great that, like, this great

01:19:11.399 --> 01:19:15.140
battle, you know, like a medieval stand, just

01:19:15.140 --> 01:19:17.720
suddenly a bigger, more fearsome animal shows

01:19:17.720 --> 01:19:21.000
up. And that animal, like, it's only described

01:19:21.000 --> 01:19:23.500
as a dog up to this point. It's only later when

01:19:23.500 --> 01:19:25.100
the humans get a perspective on it that, like,

01:19:25.140 --> 01:19:30.859
oh, it's a Labrador called Bob. I know. So he,

01:19:31.159 --> 01:19:35.500
Bob, Bob tears through the battlefield. Now,

01:19:35.539 --> 01:19:37.890
there's some... Key bits here, but I think just

01:19:37.890 --> 01:19:39.970
to kind of hit on, I think one of the most important,

01:19:40.090 --> 01:19:44.789
is Woundwart's fate. Because Woundwart, he doesn't

01:19:44.789 --> 01:19:47.729
back down from a fight, even when it's very clear

01:19:47.729 --> 01:19:52.810
he should. And Woundwart stands his ground against

01:19:52.810 --> 01:19:57.510
this lumbering animal coming towards him. And

01:19:57.510 --> 01:19:59.409
we don't get to really see what happens to him.

01:20:00.670 --> 01:20:03.789
No, that's the great thing. You know, like...

01:20:04.330 --> 01:20:07.329
All the other rabbits bolt as he's like, cowards,

01:20:07.409 --> 01:20:11.590
stand your ground. That's my Peter Bacaldi wound

01:20:11.590 --> 01:20:15.909
wart impression. And we never find his remains.

01:20:16.130 --> 01:20:17.829
You know, they come out after the battle is done

01:20:17.829 --> 01:20:20.710
and they're like, there's no sign of Woundwart.

01:20:20.829 --> 01:20:23.250
What could have happened to him? To me, I’m like,

01:20:23.350 --> 01:20:25.909
well, there's no trace of him because he got

01:20:25.909 --> 01:20:28.670
eaten. There is nothing left because he is in

01:20:28.670 --> 01:20:33.069
Bob the Labrador's tummy. But this actually becomes

01:20:33.069 --> 01:20:36.390
really interesting, the way in which the vanishing

01:20:36.390 --> 01:20:41.270
of Woundwart is used. Because after the story's

01:20:41.270 --> 01:20:43.850
done, and we move forward into the future, and

01:20:43.850 --> 01:20:47.630
they've made this new society in which Hazel

01:20:47.630 --> 01:20:51.090
has managed to create, there's this fantastic

01:20:51.090 --> 01:20:54.970
moment. I really like this, Duncan. I hope you

01:20:54.970 --> 01:20:57.649
did as well. We've heard all these amazing stories

01:20:57.649 --> 01:21:01.380
of El-ahrairah throughout their adventures. where

01:21:01.380 --> 01:21:04.439
they've taken inspiration from him and he's acted

01:21:04.439 --> 01:21:07.140
as this the source of of courage for them because

01:21:07.140 --> 01:21:09.319
like oh if if the great Ella Rayra could get

01:21:09.319 --> 01:21:12.880
through worse stuff we can get through this one

01:21:12.880 --> 01:21:16.380
of the does one of the mothers is telling a story

01:21:16.380 --> 01:21:21.520
to Fiverr's children and she recounts the story

01:21:21.520 --> 01:21:27.560
of the farm of silver wires but with Ella Rayra

01:21:27.560 --> 01:21:31.609
as the hero And the wonderful thing is, the rabbits

01:21:31.609 --> 01:21:34.270
who were there don't even realise that this is

01:21:34.270 --> 01:21:38.310
what's happening. I know. It's such a nice moment

01:21:38.310 --> 01:21:41.229
to see how their folklore continues to be adding

01:21:41.229 --> 01:21:44.649
to it. For a second there, and it gets corrected

01:21:44.649 --> 01:21:46.770
almost immediately, I was like, is this sort

01:21:46.770 --> 01:21:50.189
of the story of how Ero Ero never existed? Is

01:21:50.189 --> 01:21:54.250
he just this combination of all of rabbits, heroism

01:21:54.250 --> 01:21:58.560
and feats? Oh, I think... I think that's exactly

01:21:58.560 --> 01:22:01.800
the implication. And because I think that's,

01:22:01.800 --> 01:22:04.680
this is how they tell an, they keep an oral history.

01:22:04.899 --> 01:22:08.399
They keep a history of great events and they

01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:11.319
attribute them to one rabbit so that it can be

01:22:11.319 --> 01:22:14.420
passed down. And they use the wisdom of the ages

01:22:14.420 --> 01:22:19.020
from rabbits like Fiverr, like Big Wig, like Hazel,

01:22:19.020 --> 01:22:22.460
who survived to tell their stories and add them

01:22:22.460 --> 01:22:26.270
to the canon of El-ahrairah. But we also get this

01:22:26.270 --> 01:22:30.829
lovely addition because there's another legend

01:22:30.829 --> 01:22:33.850
now among rabbits. Not just the glorious adventures

01:22:33.850 --> 01:22:37.890
of El-ahrairah, but also of the boogeyman of rabbits.

01:22:39.050 --> 01:22:45.130
The terrifying figure of Woundwart who haunts

01:22:45.130 --> 01:22:49.789
the grounds. General Woundwart. Exactly. He's

01:22:49.789 --> 01:22:51.689
the new boogeyman. He's the one who says, like,

01:22:51.729 --> 01:22:53.590
oh, you better behave, little rabbit kitten.

01:22:53.930 --> 01:22:58.750
Otherwise, Woundwart will get you. I think it's

01:22:58.750 --> 01:23:01.670
such a nice idea of, like, he was larger than

01:23:01.670 --> 01:23:03.409
life as a character to a lot of people as well.

01:23:03.430 --> 01:23:05.670
So the fact that he kind of goes into their oral

01:23:05.670 --> 01:23:11.210
history. In a weird way, it's almost a bit upsetting

01:23:11.210 --> 01:23:14.180
that, like... Our villain becomes like this named

01:23:14.180 --> 01:23:17.000
part of oral history and our heroes just blend

01:23:17.000 --> 01:23:23.520
into the legacies that already exist. Now, I’m

01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:26.239
glad you brought that up, Duncan, because I need

01:23:26.239 --> 01:23:29.199
to correct myself. Because I noted this whilst

01:23:29.199 --> 01:23:30.779
I was reading it because I had the exact same

01:23:30.779 --> 01:23:34.880
thought as you. But actually, when they say...

01:23:35.430 --> 01:23:39.289
oh oh be be a good rabbit and behave or the general

01:23:39.289 --> 01:23:41.289
will get you they don't actually say Woundwart

01:23:41.289 --> 01:23:45.250
he becomes a stock character like someone out

01:23:45.250 --> 01:23:49.569
of commedia dell 'arte you know he's now depersonalized

01:23:49.569 --> 01:23:53.649
unlike the others who are at least personalized

01:23:53.649 --> 01:23:56.609
in the character of elorera and whatever his

01:23:56.609 --> 01:24:00.970
his buddy you know his moon glum is called you

01:24:00.970 --> 01:24:02.789
know i suppose you're yeah no you're right and

01:24:02.789 --> 01:24:05.789
in many respects it's sort of just goes to the

01:24:05.789 --> 01:24:09.930
fact that Hazel embodies Eleira at this point.

01:24:10.590 --> 01:24:12.930
If Eleira never exists, then Hazel is as much

01:24:12.930 --> 01:24:16.310
Eleira as any other rabbit has ever been. Exactly.

01:24:17.329 --> 01:24:20.289
And that's what I liked about this revelation.

01:24:20.649 --> 01:24:24.229
It's the fact that not only are the feats that

01:24:24.229 --> 01:24:26.729
our characters that they've done are elevated

01:24:26.729 --> 01:24:29.430
to that of legend, they've now become part of

01:24:29.430 --> 01:24:32.789
this canon. It also, it made me feel this warm

01:24:32.789 --> 01:24:36.010
and fuzzy feeling inside to know that generations

01:24:36.010 --> 01:24:39.710
and generations of rabbits, and considering how

01:24:39.710 --> 01:24:42.210
short their lives are, probably thousands of

01:24:42.210 --> 01:24:44.909
generations of rabbits have succeeded. They've

01:24:44.909 --> 01:24:48.250
gone through these same trials and they've come

01:24:48.250 --> 01:24:51.449
out the other side, able to tell their kittens

01:24:51.449 --> 01:24:55.670
about their own stories to pass them down. All

01:24:55.670 --> 01:24:59.470
these different legendary ideas that we've seen

01:24:59.470 --> 01:25:02.810
attributed to Elorira were once upon a time,

01:25:02.909 --> 01:25:06.729
they were just ordinary rabbit adventures. Stealing

01:25:06.729 --> 01:25:11.350
rabbit from human farmers. Tussling with Elio.

01:25:11.810 --> 01:25:14.649
And I just really liked that. I just really liked

01:25:14.649 --> 01:25:17.789
this idea that all of these little adventures

01:25:17.789 --> 01:25:20.930
hold this great significance in their society.

01:25:21.470 --> 01:25:23.770
So, Eddie, I believe we are moving to a close

01:25:23.770 --> 01:25:28.060
now. So would you like to just give your kind

01:25:28.060 --> 01:25:31.159
of final thoughts and recommendations? Watership

01:25:31.159 --> 01:25:33.979
down. If you haven't been paying attention, we

01:25:33.979 --> 01:25:36.880
very much liked it. But I think there is maybe

01:25:36.880 --> 01:25:38.979
a slightly more complex question of who we recommend

01:25:38.979 --> 01:25:41.539
it to. Now, that is a good question, Duncan.

01:25:43.060 --> 01:25:46.720
Myself, I think this is a pretty universal recommendation.

01:25:48.380 --> 01:25:51.000
I don't know. So the great challenge of this

01:25:51.000 --> 01:25:54.340
is that. Your first instinct is to say, it's

01:25:54.340 --> 01:25:58.119
about rabbits, so it's for kids. And that's obviously

01:25:58.119 --> 01:26:01.239
not true because of all the violence. But Richard

01:26:01.239 --> 01:26:04.520
Adams did tell this story. It began as a story

01:26:04.520 --> 01:26:07.119
to his two daughters. We learned that in the

01:26:07.119 --> 01:26:11.100
preface to the book. I don't know when I would

01:26:11.100 --> 01:26:15.500
start recommending this to kids. I think 12 or

01:26:15.500 --> 01:26:19.199
13 might be the right point. That's when I read

01:26:19.199 --> 01:26:21.819
The Knife of Never Letting Go, and this book

01:26:21.819 --> 01:26:25.520
is about the same in terms of violence. I’m inclined

01:26:25.520 --> 01:26:27.699
to very much agree with you. This book is a very

01:26:27.699 --> 01:26:29.420
universal recommendation for me. I think it's

01:26:29.420 --> 01:26:31.460
beautifully done. It achieves everything it sets

01:26:31.460 --> 01:26:34.880
out to do, and it has a general poignancy which

01:26:34.880 --> 01:26:37.060
puts it on the upper echelons of all books that

01:26:37.060 --> 01:26:40.500
we have covered on this podcast. That recommendation

01:26:40.500 --> 01:26:43.159
is hard. Yeah, I definitely agree. That misconstruing

01:26:43.159 --> 01:26:44.659
around the rabbits is something that I’m like,

01:26:44.699 --> 01:26:49.510
oh... But I think you're right. Maybe I would

01:26:49.510 --> 01:26:51.810
just have to maybe just call this PG. Is that

01:26:51.810 --> 01:26:56.029
cheating? Parental guidance. You're an adult.

01:26:56.149 --> 01:27:00.550
You know your kid. Make a call. Yes, that's true.

01:27:00.710 --> 01:27:06.569
Probably not below 10. But I probably saw the

01:27:06.569 --> 01:27:09.170
movie when I was eight. I’d say so. And that

01:27:09.170 --> 01:27:14.670
was probably worse than the book. My dad read

01:27:14.670 --> 01:27:16.630
to me, like, The Suttle Knife and the Amber Spyglass

01:27:16.630 --> 01:27:20.850
when I was 10, and I think I was just about the

01:27:20.850 --> 01:27:23.590
right age for that, because there is some violence

01:27:23.590 --> 01:27:26.850
in those books as well. But not the ideas in

01:27:26.850 --> 01:27:29.710
this are not as hefty. So yeah, I’m 11, 12 years

01:27:29.710 --> 01:27:33.329
old, enough to know what sex is, basically. And

01:27:33.329 --> 01:27:36.710
more than that, yeah, not just for kids, this

01:27:36.710 --> 01:27:38.670
is a universal recommendation for me. If you

01:27:38.670 --> 01:27:40.939
like fantasy... You should read this book because

01:27:40.939 --> 01:27:44.699
it's an amazing adventure story. And this is

01:27:44.699 --> 01:27:46.920
a weird thing to say on this podcast because

01:27:46.920 --> 01:27:50.119
I am literally speaking to the air. If you're

01:27:50.119 --> 01:27:53.079
not a fan of fantasy, this is a great book anyway.

01:27:53.479 --> 01:27:58.079
Like, it doesn't feel like a fantasy novel. Fiverr

01:27:58.079 --> 01:28:01.479
may be a wizard, but he's not like a Gandalf

01:28:01.479 --> 01:28:03.779
wizard, you know? No, it foregoes a lot of the

01:28:03.779 --> 01:28:06.510
traditional trappings. Like I said, even at the

01:28:06.510 --> 01:28:08.750
start, I originally thought I was getting into

01:28:08.750 --> 01:28:10.970
a bit of a traditional quest format. I was like,

01:28:11.050 --> 01:28:14.989
here's our fellowship. Off we go. But GeordI’s

01:28:14.989 --> 01:28:17.430
right. It does have a little bit more of that

01:28:17.430 --> 01:28:20.689
post -apocalyptic, journeying across the harsh

01:28:20.689 --> 01:28:24.649
land kind of vibe, rather than your Lord of the

01:28:24.649 --> 01:28:27.550
Rings. Or even like a Saving Private Ryan. Yes.

01:28:27.710 --> 01:28:31.529
Yes, another great one. It genuinely has more

01:28:31.529 --> 01:28:35.470
of a vibe in tune with... world war ii stories

01:28:35.470 --> 01:28:38.949
of bands of brothers or saving private ryan than

01:28:38.949 --> 01:28:41.250
it does with some of your more classical fantasy

01:28:41.250 --> 01:28:44.069
not that they don't probably have a joint inspiration

01:28:44.069 --> 01:28:47.729
again tolkien world war one you know it's it's

01:28:47.729 --> 01:28:50.729
all feeding in there but that's generally where

01:28:50.729 --> 01:28:53.569
i you can more directly see those influences

01:28:53.569 --> 01:28:58.770
or draw parallels no way to put it all right

01:28:58.770 --> 01:29:02.109
mate great book I reckon to pretty much anyone,

01:29:02.210 --> 01:29:04.149
if you like this podcast, you'll like this book.

01:29:04.390 --> 01:29:07.489
I full -heartedly agree. It's a shame about some

01:29:07.489 --> 01:29:09.750
of the production values on the audiobook. And

01:29:09.750 --> 01:29:11.989
if you do like this podcast, please rate it five

01:29:11.989 --> 01:29:15.229
stars on your podcast service of choice. Absolutely.

01:29:15.850 --> 01:29:18.069
If you have read Watership Down and want to share

01:29:18.069 --> 01:29:19.890
your thoughts with us, if you've seen one of

01:29:19.890 --> 01:29:22.829
the many different adaptations, tell us what

01:29:22.829 --> 01:29:24.329
they're like. I’ve only seen the classic animated

01:29:24.329 --> 01:29:26.829
one. I know there was one on Netflix a few years

01:29:26.829 --> 01:29:29.359
back. Let us know. The best place, as always,

01:29:29.420 --> 01:29:32.520
is our Instagram, instafantasypodcast on Instagram.

01:29:33.039 --> 01:29:35.619
You can also email us directly at instafantasypodcast

01:29:35.619 --> 01:29:38.020
.gmail .com. We have a Blue Sky account now,

01:29:38.060 --> 01:29:41.659
so go and check us out over there. Oh, we do?

01:29:41.960 --> 01:29:45.020
We do. I didn't even know that. Very little gets

01:29:45.020 --> 01:29:46.699
posted there, but I am picking up the slack.

01:29:48.300 --> 01:29:50.079
It's always great to hear from you. It makes

01:29:50.079 --> 01:29:51.840
our weeks every time. And if you're listening

01:29:51.840 --> 01:29:54.420
on a podcasting app, please do and just drop

01:29:54.420 --> 01:29:58.880
us. uh review hit for five stars or how many

01:29:58.880 --> 01:30:01.420
stars you think we deserve it goes an awful long

01:30:01.420 --> 01:30:04.479
way if anything just makes our day duncan what

01:30:04.479 --> 01:30:08.539
is the blue sky it's what's outside oh right

01:30:08.539 --> 01:30:11.260
sorry seriously it is a social media platform

01:30:11.260 --> 01:30:16.100
similar to um duncan what is our blue sky account

01:30:16.100 --> 01:30:20.060
oh good question georgie We are Just Fantasy

01:30:20.060 --> 01:30:23.199
Podcast on Blue Sky. We weren't allowed enough

01:30:23.199 --> 01:30:26.500
letters for the full name. It was an agony to

01:30:26.500 --> 01:30:29.500
write. Okay, cool. We're Just Fantasy Podcast

01:30:29.500 --> 01:30:33.380
at Blue Sky. Thank you, Duncan. Well, I will

01:30:33.380 --> 01:30:35.699
definitely be checking that out since I just

01:30:35.699 --> 01:30:41.579
found out it exists. And, Duncan, I bet people

01:30:41.579 --> 01:30:43.619
can find out a little bit more about what we're

01:30:43.619 --> 01:30:46.100
reading next time if they head to our Blue Sky.

01:30:46.260 --> 01:30:49.800
But, Duncan... What is that going to be? What

01:30:49.800 --> 01:30:53.079
book are you going to choose for us? Geordie,

01:30:53.119 --> 01:30:55.460
we've had an amazing start to the year. We've

01:30:55.460 --> 01:30:58.319
hit some big names, and somewhat I want to continue

01:30:58.319 --> 01:31:01.739
that tradition. But we've also gone quite off

01:31:01.739 --> 01:31:04.300
-piste. We've done different things that have

01:31:04.300 --> 01:31:07.439
got a different spin on the fantasy genre. And,

01:31:07.539 --> 01:31:10.199
Geordie, I want to go and eat some comfort food

01:31:10.199 --> 01:31:12.539
again. I’m sorry, after the Bonesmith, that might

01:31:12.539 --> 01:31:16.680
appall you, the idea. That's just what I’m feeling

01:31:16.680 --> 01:31:20.119
in the mood for. So I’m going to do a book that

01:31:20.119 --> 01:31:21.760
I’ve been meaning to do since our very first

01:31:21.760 --> 01:31:23.899
year of doing this podcast. It's by an author

01:31:23.899 --> 01:31:26.840
that I can say that I’ve enjoyed everything of

01:31:26.840 --> 01:31:29.060
theirs that I’ve read, but I certainly haven't

01:31:29.060 --> 01:31:31.899
read nearly even half of all their works because

01:31:31.899 --> 01:31:35.319
they are one hell of a prolific author. We're

01:31:35.319 --> 01:31:39.199
going to be reading Magician by Raymond E. Feist,

01:31:39.260 --> 01:31:41.859
the first in the Rift War saga. And to be more

01:31:41.859 --> 01:31:44.720
precise, Geordie... Because I’m nice, and we've

01:31:44.720 --> 01:31:46.819
only got two weeks between episodes, we're going

01:31:46.819 --> 01:31:49.859
to be covering Magician's Apprentice, also Magician

01:31:49.859 --> 01:31:53.539
Part 1, depending on your region. All right.

01:31:54.039 --> 01:31:58.359
Okay. So this is the Rift War saga. It's pretty

01:31:58.359 --> 01:32:02.300
famous in fantasy circles. I really don't know

01:32:02.300 --> 01:32:04.500
anything about it whatsoever. I know it's about

01:32:04.500 --> 01:32:07.140
wizards. Lots of wizards. And that's it. I don't

01:32:07.140 --> 01:32:09.960
know when it was published. I don't know. how

01:32:09.960 --> 01:32:12.260
many books there are in a series. I get the feeling

01:32:12.260 --> 01:32:14.500
that this, we are going back to quite traditional

01:32:14.500 --> 01:32:18.380
fantasy, however. Oh, Geordi, I’ll tell you now.

01:32:18.579 --> 01:32:21.640
There are wizards, there are knights, there are

01:32:21.640 --> 01:32:24.699
dwarves, there are elves. This has got all the

01:32:24.699 --> 01:32:28.699
classic Tolkien -esque trappings in it. I don't

01:32:28.699 --> 01:32:31.140
think we've actually had a book on the podcast

01:32:31.140 --> 01:32:35.300
so far. In the, like, coming on to three years

01:32:35.300 --> 01:32:37.819
that we've been doing this podcast. Not coming

01:32:37.819 --> 01:32:40.210
on, over three years. that we've actually had

01:32:40.210 --> 01:32:43.090
dwarves and elves in the story. Dickodge, you

01:32:43.090 --> 01:32:48.350
may be right. Well, it's about time. So, I hope

01:32:48.350 --> 01:32:50.930
you enjoy it. I hope you appreciate it for what

01:32:50.930 --> 01:32:54.630
it is. If you've experienced Rift War, let us

01:32:54.630 --> 01:32:56.829
know your thoughts on it. I can tell you now,

01:32:56.909 --> 01:33:01.729
I’ve only read the original trilogy or saga of

01:33:01.729 --> 01:33:03.170
Rift War. I think it's called the Rift War Saga

01:33:03.170 --> 01:33:05.069
and the greatest is called the Rift War Cycle.

01:33:05.529 --> 01:33:08.840
I may have got those the other way around. There's

01:33:08.840 --> 01:33:12.180
so much content here, and I have to say, it's

01:33:12.180 --> 01:33:14.140
something that I’ve read before and I’m a real

01:33:14.140 --> 01:33:16.899
fan of, so I hope you like it too. Well, I’m

01:33:16.899 --> 01:33:18.880
very interested, and I’m looking forward to it.

01:33:19.880 --> 01:33:22.140
And I will be looking forward to it next time.

01:33:22.739 --> 01:33:25.159
I’ve been your host, Geordie Bailey. And I’ve

01:33:25.159 --> 01:33:27.539
been your other host, Duncan Nicol. Till next

01:33:27.539 --> 01:33:28.399
time. Bye!