Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This
Just Fantasy, the podcast where every other week,
two nerds get together to rate, read and review
a fantasy novel. I’m your host, Geordie Bailey.
And I’m a terrified rabbit in a dark and horrific
world, Duncan Nicoll. That's because this week
we are reading... Watership Down by Richard Adams.
The film scarred my childhood, and now the book's
come back for round two. Because Duncan, I never
actually watched a film when I was growing up.
I actually caught exactly like two seconds of
it on TV as a kid. And nothing especially bad
happened. But I think someone in the room knew
not to keep it on. So he went, nope, and changed
it away. That's because someone clearly cared
for your emotional well -being at a young age.
Which is funny because the book... Obviously,
there is violence in it. And I was like, oh,
this isn't really as dark as I was expecting.
I was thinking that I was going to make... The
joke I was planning to make was, we start off
this year with a lot of dark fantasy. You know,
we read The Witcher and Straight Razor's Cure.
We read The Black Company. And the last novel
we read was still pretty goth. But at least this
one's just about nice fluffy bunnies. The descriptions
aren't as graphic as perhaps someone coming off
the film would... expect but the subject matter
is often still quite heavy for i don't know someone
going in for the peter rabbit vibe you know when
when it's described in a book like uh you know
wound watch scratched him and blood trickled
down the back of his neck I’m like okay that's
not really as violent as i was expecting by reputation
But then I looked up Woundwart because I was
trying to figure out if that was the name of
a plant before the episode. And I just caught
a gif of a rabbit literally ripping another one
to shreds. And I went, oh, my God, this is horrific.
What the hell? It is absolutely fantastic. The
original Watership Down animated film. Just a
classic of messed up. Was it 80s? Kids television?
Oh my goodness. But you're right. I’m not sure
when it came out, but it is genuinely bizarre.
The book has a reputation of appearing to appeal
to children, but actually being written more
for adults. I don't know how it really translated
to that film being made. Well, I think the first
thing I’ll say of why the film probably got made,
though, is the fact that this is a pretty darn
good book, Geordie. Let's lay that one down.
It's true. That's right. No, there's no discussion
to be had there. There's one discussion that
shall happen later. But I think the book really
speaks for itself. It really just drew me in
and it was a magical experience. This is one
of the few times in this podcast where I’ve genuinely
said, I don't really want this book to end. I
just want it to keep going forever. That's such
a lovely sentiment. Right, before we get into
our appreciation of Watership Down, Geordie,
have you been reading, experiencing, listening
to anything else you want to share with us? Well,
yes, actually. I was planning on reading this
book at some point, but it was definitely hastened
by the strong feeling I had about how Watership
Down was influenced by the Second World War.
So I’ve been reading Anthony Beaver's Stalingrad.
Okay, Stalingrad. Enemy at the Gates. That's
the extent of my knowledge. Is the book Enemy
at the Gates the extent of your knowledge, or
the film the extent of your knowledge? Oh, the
film. Okay, so you don't know shit about Stalingrad.
I have heard it's got a reputation for being
horrifically historically inaccurate. Not maybe
quite on Braveheart levels, but not far behind.
I can't speak to that because I haven't seen
the movie. It's a very interesting book. He has
a lot of skill as a writer. Because this is,
to be clarified, this is non -fiction. This is
historical work. This is based on declassified
Russian intelligence from the time period. And
a very unique. So it's written in 1994. Which
means it was written in this sweet spot of East
and West friendliness. You know, they mention
in the preface to the book that just a couple
of years later, you know, this book literally
could not have been written because those sources
are either being hidden or being destroyed by
Russian intelligence services. So, yeah, it's
fascinating and it really is an artifact of a
different time. Oh, gosh. And how was it? Well,
I’m still reading it. I think it's very interesting.
And it's the sort of thing that's like, if it
was fictional, you'd be like, this is a bit repetitive.
Because it's like, do you enjoy scenes of Russian
and German suffering? Well, let's just repeat
on that theme for 400 pages. I can't say it's
right at the top of the list of some of my interests,
but... I mean, to get kind of that historical
insight from a very different perspective, I
think anything World War II related that doesn't
focus on the Western Front is kind of fascinating
because it's not that part of the story that
is told that often. I saw a fascinating fact
the other day, which I was not really aware of.
I’m sure plenty of people do know this. But in
terms of just fatalities, the Eastern Front...
grossly outstrips what was occurring on the western
one and you're like let's not talk about Nili
as much no it's um it's incredible there's this
um it's a very it's a weird it's a very weird
thing to call back to because it seems like a
joke but it's not Duncan you know um you know
Yakko's world um yeah the Warner Warner Brothers
the and the Warner sister dot yeah yeah and the
maniacs that's what they're called At Vienna
Maniacs, there's a song in which one of the characters
sings a song which includes all of the countries
of the world, or close to all the countries of
the world. Okay. Like kids' entertainment? Someone
did a... There are a lot of meme edits of that
song to be like, oh, countries... Only including
countries that will previously belong to Britain.
Stuff like that. Almost equally as long. One
version of that... One version of that does that,
but for every 100 ,000 people killed, Yakov repeats
that country. And he says the word Russia for
two minutes straight. Geordie, this is quite a
sovery heavy beginning of this episode. I fear
that when I go into what I’ve been reading and
experiencing, I’m going to come off almost childlike
in comparison. But wow. Go ahead, Duncan. Well,
to contrast with what was already reading Stalingrad,
off the back of all shit, I actually finished
over the last two weeks a book that I’ve been
reading for a while now and very much enjoying,
and that is a sci -fi comedy story called We'll
Save the Galaxy for Food by Yarksey Croshaw.
For those that don't know, the author is a YouTuber
game critic, and I’ve experienced him through...
oh yeah his work in game critique does these
sort of short punch review videos and i saw he
had a book on audible and i had a credit and
i thought yeah why not i actually quite like
the sound of his voice and he does the audio
uh recording for it and yeah i thought it was
actually a really decent funny time does he like
in his youtube videos speak extremely fast and
obnoxiously he does tone that down it is a similar
kind of style of comedy It's a lot of sarcastic
comments, a lot of characters thinking one thing,
saying another. And then in certain moments,
it's a lot of very over -verbose descriptions
of, like, slightly gross -out descriptions of
things. So that does definitely play into it.
But I think the fundamental premise, we've got
this guy who's his down -and -luck. He's a ship
captain, a pilot in the age of space travel.
a few years earlier they finally cracked that
old wormhole dimensional door technology and
now all the old pilots that used to like lug
along whole equipment and go exploring into the
great black are now out of the job just kind
of like taxi drivers busying themselves around
the airport or people being like hey do you want
to come in like I’ll do you a little tour of
some of the highlights of the of the you know
the galaxy And one thing leads to another, and
he ends up getting a job to basically look after
a mob boss's son. And he's out of his depth.
I think he basically ends up pretending that
he's a much more famous guy than he is. And kind
of the plot rolls from there. It's one kind of
observed situation. It's a lot of out of the
frying pan, into the fryer, out of that again,
into a volcano kind of escalation. It was a nice,
light, fun time. so yeah that's a sort of it's
a story i um i get i get i hear brought up occasionally
when people want light irreverent comedies um
i don't know anything about it or the stories
it gets compared to like uh dungeon crawler something
carl carl i think what i would say for anyone
who's Firstly, if you saw what I’ve described
and you kind of like the sound of it, go and
listen to the artist he calls any YouTube work.
He's on a channel called Second Wind. And if
you just like the tempo of his voice and sort
of the humour that comes forth there, this is
a much more structured example of that comedy
in a very light and breezy sort of book. What
I also experienced this week, and Geordie, this
is actually a little bit deeper. Oh. And I kind
of forgot about it. I was like almost not going
to mention. Geordie, I saw a Shakespeare play
this week. Oh, wonderful. I saw The Merchant
of Venice. Hmm. What did you think of it? Reset
into 1936 Britain. Ah. Wow, that's a bit grim.
Oh, yes. See, I can compare to your stuff. Do
you know, actually, I’m not following comparison,
but another grim story. The Merchant of Venice,
for those that don't know, deals highly with
anti -Semitism in the sense that it's an anti
-Semitic story. Yeah, it's one of Shakespeare's
problem plays. So there's a lot of plays which,
you know, obviously Shakespeare, the greatest
writer to ever live. It's not really that debatable.
But he still is a product of his time, and he
wrote a number of problem plays, like The Merchant
of Venice, like The Taming of a Shrew. And the
great challenge which a lot of people have is
how to confront stories like this, which we want
to retell because they're extremely well written,
against the absolute abhorrence of the content.
And the character of Shylock, who is a... which
is almost a second -hand word for an anti -Semitic
depiction of a moneylender. He's one of these
famous but very difficult to adapt characters.
Duncan, how do you think they did? Oh, I think
they did extraordinarily well. The thing they
do in this adaptation, so the character of Shylock
is this moneylender who gets drawn into a bond
with this socialite Antonio. And Shylock says
to underwrite the bond, I want a pound of flesh.
This is the origin of where that phrase comes
from. Also apparently in this place where green
eyes with envy or something like that comes from
this one as well. Anyway, but what they do in
this play. Firstly, they set in 1956 Britain.
So this is where the fascist movement was getting
big in the UK. And the protests around that.
And all of our characters who aren't Shylock
and their daughter, they're all part of this
movement. They're all fascists. And they're meant
to be the heroes in this story. But they do a
brilliant decision where not only do we... I
don't know if I can get this right. They basically
cast Shylock. Firstly, there's a gender swap.
Shylock is played by a woman in this piece. whose
name I will say now, Chetianne Oberman. And by
kind of doing this gender swap, we get a much
more, her performance, and it might not be necessarily
down to the gender swap, but her performance,
you get a much more sort of nuanced kind of like,
this Shylock is being backed into a corner. So
a lot of the actions that are attributed to Shylock,
like this whole, I just want a pound of flesh.
I’m not going to restate on this deal. You see
it from the perspective of a character that has
been kind of spat at and derived and bullied
by these sort of powerful men. And she's just
trying to stand her ground in a society that's
getting increasingly, increasingly hostile to
her. Yeah. Another factor that the play does
really well, obviously, without acting any lines,
that actually opens up a scene of Shylock at
dinner. you know, with the family, sort of soften
the character. And at the end of the play, the
original ending is that, well, same in this one,
that Shylock's forced to convert to Christianity.
And obviously in Shakespeare time, that was the
happy ending. Yeah. We're all Christians together.
You know, I mean, it's become Christian or we
will execute you, but you know, how delightful.
Whereas, and in the original play, the line is
from Shylock, I am content. And the way it's
played in this one is the I am content. You see
the kind of a heartbreak and Shylock doesn't
actually leave the stage at this point. They
stay on stage and you just see them sort of sitting
in the back while the rest of the characters
play out. Just having this complete kind of breakdown
and upset of losing everything at the end and
turns into a much more tragic character. So yeah,
brilliantly done. On tour in the UK, highly recommend.
It's called Merchant Events 1936. Well, Duncan,
that's fantastic. I’m pleased that you did that.
I’d love to see The Merchant of Venice. That's
not one of the plays I’ve ticked off my list,
but I definitely hope to in the future. So, well,
that's good. You had a nice cultured week running
the gamut from irreverent comedies to Shakespearean
tragedies. But on with the show. Watership down.
Now, Geordie, there's a question to be asked
at the very beginning of this. Is this fantasy?
There was a question about this. I felt confident
going into this episode that this was correct.
You had your own doubts. A lot of people had
their doubts, actually. I’m surrounded by haters
on all sides. But I feel confident saying that
pretty shortly into this book, I was vindicated.
What do you think, Duncan? So the premise alone,
whenever you're dealing with these anthropomorphised
animals, there's a little bit of me that's like,
well, I mean, that's not real, so it has to be
fantastical. But that's certainly not the argument
I’m making. I think what we're getting Watership
down is a very deeply entrenched... One, we've
got a lot of this culture and their lore and
the rabbits are telling about their gods and
their beings, and that does inform the plot.
But also, just straight up, there's a rabbit
called Fiverr who has fully prophetic visions.
Yeah. Like, bang on the money. He gets it right.
Like, that's not real. That's sufficient. Yeah.
And a lot of that stuff at first is like, well,
this could be him, like, making, like, leaps
of logic. Like, he's intuiting with his great
insight. Stuff which feels like a prediction,
but it's actually just like him putting the pieces
together. But then later we meet another character
who's also a wizard. and who makes this like
prophecy for which there is absolutely there's
no information that would allow her to make that
prophecy ahead of time it's just it's just magic
well I’m glad that's sorted on with the show
watershed down people it's about rabbits that
get killed oh it's the story of a group of rabbits
that exists in a happy little warren and we mostly
follow the character of Hazel who's out and about,
but when their dear friend, Fiverr, has this
vision that their warren is going to get brutally
destroyed and everyone who stays there is going
to end up dead, Hazel is like, yeah, I hear you.
Let's go tell the big honcho. Let's tell people
to get out. Obviously, not everyone listens.
Only a small group leaves. Classic disaster film
sort of premise, by the way. That's what happens.
Someone's like, we've got to move. Someone's
like, no, the masses die. and they set out to
find a new home um the title of the water ship
down they have a journey to get there and once
they get there well geordie they have some issues
i was really surprised reading this book that
the story reminded me the most of by far was
the walking dead i didn't make that connection
but now you say it oh that just that does just
click that sort of When they're on the road and
then they get to a place of safety, very much
that first arc with the governor in the prison.
They're like, we found a good home, but then
there's just this other gang of arseholes over
the hill. And also be like, we come to a safe
place and it feels like the right place to settle
down, but all is not as it seems. That too. Yes,
that played out several times. I remember...
are terminus that's the one in walking dead where
they're like this seems nice and then they're
cannibals not quite that case here it watered
it down no yeah no no actually well no there
is mentions of cannibalism in this book but only
off page um yeah and also the thing the great
thing about it is that much like the walking
dead the main sort of drama behind this book
is not merely the survival of the troop that
sets out on their um on the journey in the first
place. It also comes down to a theme about leadership.
Hazel is set up from the start to almost be the
follower of Fiverr. You know, Fiverr's the one
who has the vision that says they have to go.
The only role that Hazel initially plays is that
they're the first person to listen to Fiverr.
In some ways, they could almost be like an apostle
figure. He talks for Fiverr because Fiverr's
very shy, but it's still Fiverr's idea. It's
only later on, as the story goes on, that Hazel
sort of slowly ends up in the role of leader,
which you could sort of say he's like fighting
for against the character of Big Wig. Yes, and
I really have to stress that these kind of character
interactions, it's very much what kind of just
pulls this book to another level. Like, they're
on a quest, they're looking for a thing, they
get a thing, they need to find another thing.
There's some bad people that don't want to have
the thing. But it's the kind of personal growth
of these rabbits as they strike out on their
owner. And often it's how I find I thought the
troop interacted and they leaned on each other
for strength when they pulled apart at certain
points. That's where I felt, wow, this is Watership
Down elevating itself. It's in this kind of inter
-character work. I agree. You really get surprised
by... You really get surprised by how much you
connect to the bond between the rabbits. It's
not like in a lot of books, it's like, it's not
like in a lot of books we read in terms of how
these relationships develop. It's not like, say,
anything in The Straight Razor Cure or Bonesmith.
It's more like, surprise, surprise, the relationships
that exist in The Black Company. It's a camaraderie.
It's a sense of community that develops. But
also, it's like, what if we're reading the Black
Company's first adventure? You know, where they're
developing the trust they have in each other.
Even sort of the, I mean, the main characters,
if I had to point to them, you know, you say
Big Wig, Hazel, Fiverr. But even sort of the lesser
ranking ones, Silver, is it Blackberry or Blackcurrant?
Blackberry. Blackberry. Yes. it's obviously not
black car and duncan you know that blackberry
they still got their moments to contribute to
respond to what's happening you know no one i
mean eventually i think there are more characters
than maybe i was like aware of but there's still
like a solid group of upwards I’ll say like seven
rabbits I’m like oh they're here they're in the
fights they're going on the missions Dandelion
especially as a character who initially just
sort of as a background figure. But eventually,
I actually drew a lot of comfort when Dandelion
would come into a scene. I’d be like, okay, things
are going to get settled down now. Blackcurrant's
going to... Sorry, not Blackcurrant. Dandelion's
going to tell us a nice story. And later, when
Dandelion is imperiled, there's this moment where
Hazel says, we have to leave him behind. I went,
Hazel, no! It's so well done, those sort of moments.
It's... you know talking about you're afraid
of world war ii if it's like that the band of
brothers just yeah you really have this connection
and i think to be honest that's what drives a
lot of the sense of peril in this book it's less
so what's happening but the fact that i care
about so much of the cast that I’m like yeah
from a plot when you're reading a story I’m trying
to think of a good example top of my head i don't
know if lord of the rings isn't the best example
but Say you've got your main character and you
kind of know by the tropes of the way of the
world that they're not going to get touched.
So they're protected by the plot. And then you've
got the other characters and they could die and
the plot could keep working. What I think what
it does so well is it makes you really kind of
like all these other characters who are maybe
slightly estraneous to the brunt of the narrative.
Which makes them expendable by the laws of written
stories but you like them so much you're now
really upset. So then when these actions happen
you feel that sense of peril and the fact that
the author clearly is happy to slaughter bunnies
throughout that sense of peril really hung over
most scenes uh there's a bit later on with Big Wig
where he goes he goes undercover and i was terrified
for him exactly It's so thrilling. It really
did feel like a proper spy narrative. The sense
of paranoia and danger in that section where
he's legitimately playing a double agent. That
was really well written and I never in a million
years thought that was going to develop out of
the initial premise. But let's zero in on specific
characters then. What do you think of Hazel or
Hazelrah? As they come to be known later, love
their little, like, epitaph. I love Hazel. Hazel
is fantastic. I think that there's a really delicate
art that came into the creation of a character
like Hazel. Hazel represents a sort of... The
word that comes to mind with Hazel is jack -of
-all -trades. Hazel is not even a fully grown
rabbit. He's far from physically the strongest.
And this book, considering that it's about fluffy
little bunny rabbits, puts a huge emphasis on
rabbit size and strength. It depicts them as
feisty and territorial and aggressive creatures.
I had bunnies growing up, Duncan. Did you have
bunnies? I did indeed. I did not think they were
going to be... They were as... territorial and
mean as this. A lot was happening in the hutch
when I wasn't looking, apparently. I have a good
rabbit story, though. I’ll save it for the end
of the podcast, but folks should listen for it
because I think it's a very good story. But,
so, Hazel, not physically the strongest, not
even, despite being quite tricky, not even the
smartest. He leaves the thinking to Fiverr and
BlackBerry. But Hazel... is an exceptionally
good leader. And the way in which this is actually
written and depicted and the internal struggle
he has to come up with the right ideas, I thought
was fantastically done. Some of the strengths
here, which I think kind of set above other depictions
of leadership, is firstly the lack of infallibility.
Hazel does make the wrong decisions. In fact,
early on, there's a section where on our journey,
as we set out, where they kind of get to their
first false haven. Cowslitz Warren, I think is
what it's referred to. And they're like, oh,
we could be safe here. And in this moment, Fiverr
gets another like, Hazel, Hazel, we've got to
go. We've got to go. We can't be here. Hazel's
like, nah, it's fine. I mean, I only left everyone
behind last time you had a bad vision, but I’m
sure this time it's okay because he's tired and
he doesn't want to go out on the run again. And,
you know, it seems comfy and there's good food.
And this proves to be the wrong decision, but
it's a decision that seemed very real for why
Hazel is making it. You know, he's exhausted
at this point. He's finally gotten somewhere
safe. He feels like, oh, can't I just achieve
this? Yeah. But Hazel then makes the mistake,
but then learns from it. Like, you can clearly
see he's developing in his leadership role. to
listen to those around him and i like the fact
that even after like Hazel has learned a lot
of lessons and has improved as a leader and is
more than that firmly established and respected
by the other rabbits he's still making little
mistakes like i mentioned before a bit where
he's ready to make the tough decision to leave
Dandelion behind to like be killed by other rabbits
to protect everyone else and he makes this really
hard decision in this in a split second and big
wig like disagrees with him says like hold on
for just a little longer and then Dandelion does
show up and does rescue himself and then managed
to get away with everyone so this is definitively
you know from a utilitarian point of view the
wrong call if like a sacrifice didn't need to
be make made but what i find interesting about
this story is that none of the characters get
bogged down about this they're all practical
enough and sensitive enough to sort of like roll
with the punches there and i think there's even
a moment right after this where where he where
Hazel feels bad for a moment and it reflects
No, Dandelion trusts me enough to make these
decisions, and they just sort of press on on
their adventure. I mean, talking about great
leadership, I know it's a very easy comparison
to make, but I read about Hazel, this little
bunny rabbit, and I’m just like, ah, Jean -Luc
Picard. The spirit lives on. I mean, because
I was in that World War II frame of mind, I was
going back to Band of Brothers in major winters.
But yes, absolutely. And the thing that works
about this is he's able to recognize the strengths
of the other rabbits. One of the best things
that happens in this story is in a moment of
overconfidence, Hazel goes out on a... silly
mission you know he does he does something very
reckless for very little reward and he gets shot
he gets shot by a farmer's shotgun has pellets
in his leg and not only for the rest of the story
but the rest of his life he can never run as
far or as fast again and not only does he pay
for this mistake now he can just he just can't
do as much he's now disabled into in rabbit terms
So when he goes on future missions, he wants
to put himself forward, but he literally can't.
He has to start putting other people in harm's
way to do the things that have to be done. So,
looking at the rest of this band, I guess Fiverr's
the next one you've got to chat about. Fiverr's
great as well. I love Fiverr. I know, he's so
kind of cute in the sense that... I was worried
he might get annoyed, to be honest. To be honest,
when he's doing this sort of doom and gloom and
he's kind of telling people, like, is this...
Where's your personality beyond the visions?
But he has one. You know, he's sort of... He's
reserved. He's a little bit more skipperish.
Is that the right term? Yeah, I’d say so. He's
very cute. Like, he's literally... He's the smallest
rabbit. He's very intelligent, but he can't accomplish
much for himself. He relies on the others. And...
and there's a sense that he could easily get
like pushed around and bullied into doing what
um when anyone else wants but people you know
people love fiverr too much and they recognize
his value eventually the value of his insights
and um what i also like about him is like you
said there's a moment where he could get annoying
like that sort of i told you so moment in um
with the cowslip farm uh cowshit warren where
he's like you know this is bad we need to leave
but the actual way he sort of has his i told
you moment is delivered in such a beautiful and
dramatic and powerful way that it really just
it doesn't make you go oh come on it makes you
go wow listen to this fucking rabbit he knows
what he's talking about okay and i do want to
expand on actually on the cowshit farm because
he's brought up you know twice now this is This
is the first stop off. They stop off at this
warren. Cowslip is the name of the rabbit. I
don't even think it's the head rabbit. It's just
one of the other rabbits they meet there. And
they're like, come, live with us. It's all nice
and roomy. The local farmer, he gives us food.
It's lovely. And what we get is rabbits just
go missing here and no one talks about it. And
this is so brilliantly eerie because I believe
at the very start, when it first gets very first
gets mentioned, it's almost offhand. And then
it's only when someone starts to push on it and
they get that kind of strong slap back, like
just quiet. Don't talk about it. You're like,
OK, I’ve sat up now. What's happening? What's
going on? And it builds and I’m thinking about
what's going on, like what the rabbit's doing.
Do they have a. deal is this some weird cult
thing i don't know that's just where my brain
was going no it but it does have a cultish feel
to it um because when you arrive at this warren
you know something's wrong just from the point
of view of the reader you know it's too early
in the book for them to have found their safe
place but actually i couldn't really figure out
like exactly what the issue was That's what made
it so blooming good. We eventually get this reveal
where Big Wig gets caught in a snare. And firstly,
this is a great scene because we've got the big,
powerful rabbit brought low by this rabbit snare.
And we also see who are the clever rabbits who
work out how to free him. It was a good scene.
Really early moment, I think, with Blackberry
being like clawing at the little peg in the ground.
You're like, you're the smart guy. I’ve got it.
Other people start panicking. And then there's
the... There's the teamwork, because they all
burrow in to try and gnaw through the peg that's
holding it in place, and once they get down low
enough, it's too small, and Hazel immediately
says, Fiverr, get Fiverr, he's the smallest,
and Fiverr leaps in at once, despite being the
weakest and most scared of them all, and he's
the one who manages to free Big Wig, and even
gets injured in the process, but obviously these
rabbits are so good and supportive, and they
care about each other so much that he doesn't
care. And... you have this dramatic moment where
he unveils the history of this Warren, which
is not called Cow Slip. I looked it up. I found
the Wikipedia in which it lists the name in the
movie, which is Warren of Snares, which is a
bit of a giveaway. So it's definitely not called
that in the book because otherwise I would have
figured it out pretty fast. But as Duncan has
alluded to, they are on a farm. This whole area
is set up. with uh it's set up with snares to
catch rabbits they're being kept big and fat
on purpose but all of these weird eccentricities
they have the way in which they put like stones
into the wall of their their um the walls of
their uh warren no i was gonna say warren i was
gonna say this specific word it's this warren
is the whole thing but they're actual like tunnels
i have a different word for it burrow They've
put stones in the wall of their burrows. And
the idea is they're getting more human -like.
They're not acting like normal rabbits. They're
doing things quite strangely. They don't tell
stories about El-ahrairah, the great cultural
hero of the rabbits. Because being reminded of
freedom and trickery is too painful to them.
And their strangest... eccentricity of all is
they would never answer any question that begins
with where and and like so did you write firstly
i forgive myself now for making it kind of cult
-like so where does this where come from why
where because this is brought up multiple times
where they ask them where where's this place
where did they go where does the food come from
and the reason why is because it's taboo in this
warren to ask where anyone or anything is because
they because when rabbits are caught in the silver
wire and they're trapped no one wants to acknowledge
that anyone has gone missing that anyone has
been sacrificed and they hold on to this delusion
so firmly that when other rabbits come looking
for Big Wig and Hazel and they identify them as
belonging to the same group of rabbits, they
attack and kill some of them because they have
to defend, to such an extent, the sanctity of
their delusion. Okay, I’m massively forgiving
myself for describing it as cult -like. What
I really enjoy about this, firstly, from the
rabbit's perspective... You know, this cult of
delusion. We can't accept the horrors that go
on. We've got to just close our eyes to the horrors
that are going on around us. Incredibly powerful
stuff. Really good to be read on to obviously
huge parts of human history. Now, Duncan, before
you go any further. But I also really kind of
enjoy this. We should of course bear in mind
that according to the author, this book is not
an allegory. And you shouldn't read it as an
allegory for anything. He said so in the author's
notes. So please, don't try and relate this to
anything that's happened in human history. But
please go ahead. Do what you like, people. I’m
sure you'll find the bits that are obvious, obvious,
regardless of authorial intent. Back to what
I was saying. What I really enjoy is the fact
that this is this main cross -section between
the rabbits and the human world we get early
on, and that this big mystery from the rabbits
is almost so mundane from the human perspective.
What is this? It's a free -range rabbit farm.
Yeah. Okay. those are them yeah exactly we know
what those are but it's so alien and strange
to rabbits that you only see the very edges of
it such that it actually becomes a bit weird
and mysterious i kept changing my mind when i
was reading this section it was like what is
wrong with these rabbits at one point they mentioned
like the idea of a poison tree and I’m like are
they being like poisoned by pollution or something
is that why you're acting strange and then later
they mention that farmers come along no sorry
they mention that humans come along and drop
little white strange smelling sticks which is
how cigarettes are constantly referred to throughout
the book and amusingly every single human being
smokes in every single scene they appear um i
think it goes to show the time period this was
written in the 1970s but and then i thought oh
my god these rabbits are eating nicotine and
they're going insane i might have thought that
because last week my girlfriend was going to
work and she saw a rap sorry a squirrel holding
a vape pen notice her and then run away with
the vape oh no poor squirrel it's not good for
them no it's fine duncan you know he'll just
let out some of that squirrel anxiety That's
the chillest squirrel you'll ever meet. Don't
litter, folks. Don't litter. That's the message
to have taken away from here. But it's not rabbits
getting poisoned by cigarettes. It's this much
more normal and yet stranger story. I think my
kind of point here is I do enjoy anything where
you kind of recast sort of the mundanity of the
human world and sort of show it from the animal's
perspective being quite horrific. Yeah, of course.
And I think they could say for a lot of this
book, it's sort of these great battles are taking
place. But if you were just a human standing
around, you just go, oh, look at the bunnies
running back and forth, drawing your cigarette,
walk away. Your little white stick. Something
about, the great thing to bring about rabbit
perspective is not only do these rabbits have
like a culture and a history. They have a language.
They speak Lapine. And this book, it's sprinkled
throughout with rabbit words. These are words
which the author has decided are important enough
to rabbits, which, in fact, they need their own
word for it. But it's untranslatable to humans
because it doesn't mean anything to us. And that's
a really nice kind of cultural building technique.
I love the use of language, obviously Tolkien
being a bit of a king of it. And to kind of bring
this forth to the rabbit culture, I do quite
like the idea that they are speaking rabbit,
and the author is translating it for us. Exactly.
Yeah, there's a bit where... So some of my favourite
ones are... There's a word we use, sylphlae.
Sylphlae is the process of going up. above ground
in order to feed and the fact that it's given
this special word beyond the word graze which
seems like the obvious translation it sort of
goes to show that this is actually something
that has like its culturally significance to
the rabbits going up in order to do this is an
important cultural process as well as just a
sort of natural and biologically important one
I’d imagine just this is me kind of going off
book here a bit but like that would be massive
because that's ultimately when a rabbit's most
exposed and most at risk it's like this natural
thing you have to do but you're inherently taking
a massive risk to do it watering hole if this
was a book you know set in the african savannah
whatever animal they choose to um choose to write
about sylph lay would be going to the watering
hole and braving the the lions and the hyenas
and the crocodiles Oh, yes, that reads across
nicely. Oh, there's another good one, which is,
I’ve forgotten the word. Maybe you can remember
it, Duncan, but all predators are referred to
as allele. That's it, it's Elil. And Elil
means all predators. So all birds of prey, all
foxes, all that, they're all Elil. That's why
you need to differentiate. They are a fact. It
reminds me, this is really interesting, Duncan,
that... Do you know what the word wolf means?
Like, when you go back to its origin? Oh, God.
No, I do not know the etymology of... Or can
I guess? Is it kind of like Nordic in origin?
Well, it's... The direct way in which we get
the word wolf is Germanic, yes. But it does go
back, I think, to a Proto-Indoeuropean root.
Oh, okay. Does it just mean... Oh, what would
be a good guess here? All the signs are
just being threat or scary? Not far off, Duncan.
Not far off. It means “horrid thing.” So the word
wolf kind of just means monster. It doesn't mean
dog-like creature. It means “watch out. There's
bad animals around.” And the interesting thing
is that if you go to, if you go, like you just
said, to Nordic languages, they have two words
for wolf. One of them is the one I just mentioned.
It's Ulfr, which became wolf. And that's, you
know, it's a bad connotation, but it can be good.
Like you can have, your name could be Ulfr something,
like wolf spear. And that's cool because that
means like I’m a wolf. defending my pack you
know like I’m a wolf to uh to to other people
i I’m very fierce but i have a second word which
is I’m gonna struggle to pronounce this with
the right the right rolling of the r vargr and
where Duncan do we see the word Vargr which
is the more dark foreboding which comes basically
from the word for outcast like the wolves that
don't become dogs basically It shows up in the
word warg. That's why Tolkien chose to call the
evil wolves in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit
wargs, not wolves, because he's saying they're
bad wolves. I’ve just got such a jigsaw pieces
clicking together kind of moment there. I love
the origin of the words. And it's fascinating.
One more thing I’ll say. On that same line, you
can be called... Something that relates to Ulf.
But there are no names that come from Vargr.
They just don't exist. And one more thing. Sorry,
one more thing. You can see more evidence of...
You can see more evidence of wolf not meaning
dog -like creature. Because in one of the stories
of Ragnarök, the great Midgard serpent Jörmungandr
is referred to as a wolf. Okay, just to refer
to it as a bad creature. Yeah. Well, everyone,
I hope you enjoyed Geordie's special subject
on Mastermind. Join us next week where I’ll be
doing my subject one day. No, that's really cool
to hear. Duncan, we both know your special subject
on Mastermind would be Conan the Barbarian. You're
absolutely right. Can I just take this moment
actually while talking about the pronunciation
of words? Mate, did you listen to the audiobook
this time? I did. I listened to the audiobook
as well. Who'd voice your one? Peter Capaldi?
Peter Capaldi. Absolutely amazing. He did a great
job. Shit audiobook, though, but he did a great
job. His natural, I don't know, Scottish kind
of tones throughout just rang true. He really
gives it his all. The tick that I felt when he
was talking about the... You know, the rabbit's
culture or the stories of... I don't know if
I can get this one right. Also, if we pronounce
aim for this wrong, you can just lay the blame
at Peter CapaldI’s feet because we're just copying
him. The guy went so hard on this. I actually
told my partner multiple points. I’m like, this
is... This actually is maybe my third favourite
thing he's ever done. In terms of his works.
He did the thick of it, he's done Doctor Who,
and now I will always remember him as the guy
who did Watership Down. Duncan, did you ever
watch that one season of Torchwood that was actually
good? I mean, the short answer is no. I watched
the very first season of Torchwood when it first
aired, and I remember just sitting there thinking,
what is this? This isn't Doctor Who. Mum, should
I be watching this? It's very strange. There's
one season, which is like one extended mini -arc.
It's called Children of Earth. Peter Capaldi
plays this minor British diplomat in it, which
is very funny when he's going to go on to become
the Doctor, and it's set in the same universe.
But that's fantastic, and he does a very good
job in that. Dark as hell, though. It's a very
grim series. We're distracted. Peter Pahody did
a great job in his audiobook, but the audiobook
itself is actually really poorly put together.
There are numerous places where audio just vanishes.
Like, um, this is like, this is like the first
couple of episodes of this podcast where I was
just like accidentally snipping into like previous
sentences and I had to go back and change it,
but no one has gone back to fix this. Uh, pretty,
pretty inexcusable. Oh, definitely, in a professional
production. But not a takeaway from his performance.
He's an underrated Doctor Who. Love me Peter
McCordy. So, Geordie, I feel like there's two
directions I want to take things now. There's
the next step in the rabbit's journey, and I
really want to talk about actually getting to
Watership Down. And I think what most people
coming to this would argue is sort of the main
plot of the book. But I also want to talk about
Big Wig. And I feel like... What's the best approach?
Do we go through the narrative and talk about
him when we get to his special double agent moment?
Or do we just get Big Wig out there? Because Big Wig
is the man. I think we've got to talk about Big Wig
because I was really surprised by the character
of Big Wig when he first shows up. He doesn't
even seem like he's going to be a main character.
He seems like he's just going to be a problem.
He seems like a middle management guy that you
have to sort of get past. Like the story equivalent
to a mini -boss. But weirdly enough, Big Wig joins
the crew right from the start. He's like the
third member. And he stays the third member throughout.
And he only gets more concrete in that role.
So the character Big Wig, he is an original home
warren. Which 5 has the whole vision about them
having to leave. He's kind of the... door guard
for the robin's leader who does have a name i
have gotten it the rare thura three error yeah
it's right it's three a rah because just like
Hazel becomes Hazelrah he's three a rah makes
perfect sense Big Wig is a member of the upper
echelon We're introduced to this idea right from
the start. Fiverr and Hazel are young, small
rabbits, and they don't belong to the upper sect
of rabbit kind, which is based on age and physical
strength. So, Big Wig is important and has authority
because he's a very big and tough rabbit. And
I think he's often portrayed at the very start,
at least. Maybe not the brightest? Like, he's
the big muscular bodyguard. But he's not a decision
maker. Yeah, he's bullheaded. Keeley, he's...
Keeley? Yeah, Kee... Most importantly, he's not
a decision maker. He's not a leader. He's upper
echelons, but he still ultimately follows orders.
So when he actually breaks out from this and
follows Hazel, that's like his first real, like,
I’m going my own way moment. But he still represents
a threat because, and Hazel's anxious about this
as well, because he has like the presumed authority
of previously belonging to like this upper class
of rabbits. He's physically bigger and stronger.
He's very bullheaded. Like he could very easily
take control. of rabbit kind, and we see Hazel
is shrewd enough to realise that this could happen,
and therefore has to be very delicate around
the way he does things. He can't just say, I’m
in charge, I’ve got an idea, we're going to do
it this way, because he is rightfully concerned
that Big Wig would disagree with him, and that
would cause a splinter within the group. Now
I feel like we're right back in Walking Dead
territory. and although Hazel has this fear and
i think from my perspective rightly at the start
i actually think very quickly once you get to
like know where Big Wig is at he's pretty happy
to like he looks up to Hazel in a begrudging
way maybe to a point but i think he knows that
Hazel's got the right ideas well at first there's
a lot of knocking heads because Big Wig is this
um you know he's this bullheaded character think
straight ahead he's very dismissive of um other
rabbits you know trying to come up with their
own ideas like he doesn't like when blackberry
is like um has this idea And this is the thing
that actually really projected this into a fantasy
novel for me, where a rabbit figures out how
to make a raft out of wood, and like, okay, yeah,
we're not, this is not about rabbits, this is
about something else. He's very dismissive of
this idea to try and be clever, but there's this
very pivotal moment that happens right after
that, where Big Wig is opposed to this idea, he
just wants him to just muscle on and do it. But
once they do start to cross the river, Big Wig
jumps in, at the last, and he uses his strength
to push the raft across. And it's complete, it
comes out of nowhere. There's no point up to
now that you get the idea that he would in any
way be, you know, altruistic, that he would be
selfless. But actually, Big Wig's first instinct
is do the right thing. He's a simple, slightly
thuggish character. But he actually is, you know,
he's pointed exactly in the right direction.
He cares. That's why I just love him so. So I
have this moment, like, after we kind of talk
about each one in turn, I’m just once again like,
oh, I really like this character. I enjoyed hanging
out with these characters. That cannot be reiterated
enough. And I think that's a good example of
his kind of progression. Yeah. All right. So
let's not get too stuck on Big Wig now. because
I feel like if we want to properly discuss his
growth and the way in which he serves the story,
we'll need to talk about the end of the book
first. So let's try and catch up to that point
before we do that. So, Watership Down. Right.
They go out looking for a new home, and they
find one in a place called Watership Down. They
find, like, this safe place at the top of a hill,
and... because we've become familiar with rabbit
culture and the characters, we understand why
this place works, why it's impactful, why it's
exciting for them to have found this spot. More
than that, it represents this revolution for
the characters because they've escaped an old
society which had a set way of doing things and
they've learnt things along their journey. about
each other. Hazel's now very much in charge and
is, like, respected a lot by the other rabbits
for his, um, for his guidance. And they also
start to do things weirdly. You know, like, they
copy the design of the weird rabbits and make
something they call the honeycomb, where they
make a big interior space near Warren where they
can have, like, community meetings, which they
never would have done before. But then disaster
strikes Dordy for you see they realise something.
Something horrific. Something that will throw
the future of their warren and watershed down
into absolute doubt. They ain't got no does.
No does! I think this is a fantastically rapid
issue. I don't know how to describe it. It's...
It's their favourite thing to do is hang out
with their does. I mean, I guess when they left
the war and it was very much a bros before does
situation, but now they have to think about the
future. I will just say this now and I don't
want to dwell on it. I think there's kind of
a sexist issue of this on the book. Like the
female characters are definitely treated as secondary
throughout in terms of the agency they have,
which is next to none. Oh yeah. And the way even
our main characters treat them, they really don't
treat them a lot as characters in the same way.
There's many times where they refer to them just
as collectively as their does or, oh, it was
a doe. Don't worry. That's true. I think on one
hand, a book is reckoning of us in a way where
it's like there's bits in the book is like almost
apologetics being like, now you must forgive
them talking like this. But this is just how
rabbits talk. And on one hand, you're like, I
guess this. Almost makes sense in that you're
creating a dynamic rabbit society. And maybe
rabbits are patriarchal. I don't know. But yes,
it's still a book about intelligent rabbits.
There are no female rabbits on the initial expedition.
They're all boys. I actually was really surprised
by this. I just got the impression maybe it's
because I had seen little snippets. of the Watership
Down movie, and I think some of them are girls
in that. But yes, they set out on this expedition,
they have to collect does, and you're right,
the does are very much treated kind of like chattel
in this. They're something to be exchanged. It's
like an extension of... you know the knight rescuing
a princess from the tower and then receiving
marriage in return it's like that on like a much
larger scale and as we said like you can play
this off oh it's it's rabbit culture at the same
time you just could go yeah you've given rabbits
an entire folklore and history you could have
written it elsewhere you know you didn't have
to do it this way i think it's would have been
nicer you know the same fundamentals could have
driven this story of them you know needing more
people to be with and still giving a little bit
more agency even if in the original group there
was just one doe and they're like well we can't
do it with one yeah it would have functioned
and yeah or even it's a mixed gender group and
it says well we need more people we need more
rabbits and like most of them might be doe But
you could be like, we just need more people in
general. And then, like, then carry on. Now,
I will say that they are at least saying, like,
it's not like they're going out and kidnapping
does for their own gain. It's very much, and
a priority is placed on establishing this, that
this is good for the does, that they are being
rescued, that they want to be saved. Because
there are times the way it's written that it
feels almost like a Viking raid, the way they're
talking about this. It sounds like, you know,
like the rape of the Sabine women. But that's
not the case in the... That's not the case in
which it's written. This is a daring rescue for
a bunch of damsels in distress. That being said,
he really ups the kill count once the does are
in hand. You know, like... Once he gets more
rabbits to play with, Richard Adams is like,
I haven't killed any rabbits in a while. And
then he starts popping them off one by one. Oh
yeah, it is a bit of a bloodbath near the end.
And totally, we keep talking about needing to
rescue these doves. Who do we need to rescue
them from, though? Who's our villain? Yes. So,
again, quite, um, quite... walking dead -ish
you know the main threat to the rabbits is not
uh the allele and it's not humanity it's um it's
their own kind which is always where the greatest
horror comes from the great struggle in this
book is the establishment of a new society that's
the other thing that makes this feel quite post
-apocalyptic Not just because their original
home is destroyed, but a lot of the fun in this
book is that it's about a journey from danger
to a safe haven, and then the defense of that
safe haven, and the construction of a new and
hopefully better society. That's very familiar
in post -apocalyptic stuff. And likewise, the
warlord character is very familiar. Woundwart.
This guy, he is everything. He's big, he is scary.
The animated movie, by the way, makes this rabbit
terrifying. Not that he isn't in the book, but
gosh, when someone sets an artist like, draw
me a scary rabbit, that man nailed, that person
nailed the job. But yes, he's the warlord, he's
the governor. And he is fucking scary. Even in
the book. Woundwart is... When the book was first
described to me, someone once described him as
a Napoleonic figure. That's not quite right.
But he is... It is a weird thing to say, but
he is a terrifying fascist rabbit. You know,
he believes in might makes right. He's an authoritarian.
You know, he rules over his warren with an iron
fist. And he imposes, like, these hard rules
on the way in which characters can live their
lives. And this is the bit where it's like, Richard
Adams, why do you keep telling me this is not
an allegory? Like, like... You just have some
confidence, man. You've got to stand up. It's
okay to be anti -fascist. It's all right. You've
got a little rabbit Mussolini. It's okay. I think
it's okay to say that this book isn't a one -to
-one to be mapped over one specific event of
the rise of fascism, but more of a breakdown.
of the ideology in a more general sense, but
even that I’m not 100 % on. Yes, yeah, but when
you say that, there's a bit in one of the stories,
so there's many times throughout the text that
it takes a diversion from the story to tell us
a bit of rabbit folklore. Dandelion will tell
a story of the great El-ahrairah, who is the great...
rabbit hero of folklore. Like, he's like, um,
the Br 'er Rabbit. He's like a trickster. He
uses his cunning to outthink many, um, many adversaries
and, um, wins, wins the day for rabbit kind,
which normally involves stealing lettuce. In
one of these stories, at the end, El-ahrairah,
after going through a great ordeal after a rabbit
war, He returns to rabbit civilization many years
after this has taken place, and he meets a bunch
of young rabbits who are like, oh, well, my,
like, grandfather was fought in the rabbit war,
but I don't think it was actually a big deal.
And, you know, I think they basically make all
of that stuff up anyway. I don't think anything
especially important happened. And Richard Adams,
a World War II veteran, writing... many years
after the second world war in the 70s do you
feel like you might have something to get off
your chest that you're trying to express in this
moment but this book is not an allegory right
you don't have anything you want to say right
now i i just don't understand he's not the only
author that shies away from having their work
called allegory and I’m like it's not a problem
mate don't worry it's okay It can be very effective.
Aliquot is a great tool to introduce these ideas
and concepts to people while still shielding
them from the truly incomprehensible awfulness
that reality was. We'll get on that later. So
back to one more. You're right. It is worth.
He is the worst. And I do love him for it. This
is a fantastic villain. It's great. Because he
is so scary and he is so physically imposing.
We said before that in rabbit society, might
makes right. He is the biggest, strongest, most
aggressive rabbit. And as such, he rules over.
But more than that, his ideology stems from this
fusion between natural rabbit instinct and a
dark... backstory where like he's like the last
survivor of a group of wild rabbits killed i
think it was by a weasel or a stoat i forget
which and then he's raised from um he's picked
back up after his injuries by a like a human
vet and the surviving this like tragedy turns
him into this aggressive character. And at one
point, someone reflects later that the thing
that makes him so fierce and so dangerous is
that he's more afraid of running away than fighting.
So he will always fight. I also just adore the
idea that at one point, this horrific villain
was just a cute little bunny in a vet's hands.
He was like, go on, be free, little one. Go off
back into the wilderness. And at no point did
that vet thinking, ah. my little fascist dictator
off he goes i um i do what i do like in this
book is that is how up for a fight most of rabbits
are or at least how up for a fight Woundwart
and Big Wig are there's a bit where um Big Wig
says after he like chases off a cat like When
we have rabbit kittens, I’m going to train them
to fight using that cat. And it has such a hilarious
notion of a gang of violent rabbits showing up
to beat the snot out of farm cats. And I like
that attitude. I also really like about Woundwart.
It's a nice little word. It's that he has this
sort of warped worldview. But he also is still
a character of principles. In his own twisted
way, he does think he's doing things the right
way. Oh, yeah. Everything he does is for self
-preservation. Not just self -preservation, though,
but the preservation of his society. Right, yes.
Like, he believes in survival above all else.
And he believes that, you know, what's it called?
This is a very common phrase. It's an existential
question and a question of existence. If we don't
follow my rules, we'll all be wiped out. So everything
I do is justified. It all says to the greater
good. Exactly. So he can do these appalling things
because it's all for the right reason. And his
ideology can get folded into whatever shape he
needs it to be. He wants vengeance. against people
who stole his does, well, they represent a threat
to me, so they must be wiped out. And the funny
thing about it is that, like, his rabbits are
set up as a, like, prominent physical threat
to Hazel's rabbits. Hazel's rabbits have a couple
of heavy hitters, like Silver and Big Wig, but
pretty much every rabbit is, like, a step above
the average in Hazel's group. And they're really
good at tracking them down. So there is this
actual ever -present sense of danger. After they
escape, they're immediately on... After Big Wig's
big escape from the enemy Warren, they're immediately
on the run and losing rabbits because the fight
and the chase is so intense. So let's just kind
of run through the events when Hazel's group
comes up against Woundwart. We have this initial
interaction and Hazel's group initially go as
sort of, you know, they go with peace. They're
like, yo, can we trade? We just want a few does.
How can we make this work? And Woundwart immediately
pushes back on that quite violently. And so we
get to the second plan. Yeah, he press gangs
them into his own warren. He says, if you come
into my territory, you belong to me. So we have
this initial escape, and then they're all thinking,
what do we do? And I quite like the fact that
we get, once again, the clever ones, Blackberry.
I think Fiverr has an input, comes up with this
plan to send Big Wig in to pretend to be a lone
wolf, a lone rabbit. who wants to sign up, who's
big and strong, and is like, yeah, come on. You
want me to join your group? I’m down with what
you're selling. And then he's going to work from
within to spring a mass escape. A great escape.
and it's as we said before this bit is really
exciting it's really daring it really feels like
a spy narrative building trust from the inside
not knowing who you can talk to there's a bit
where like one of the rabbits who's being told
about the escape plan is being interrogated so
you have a moment of like one of our inner circles
got busted by vickistapo and we need to launch
our plans early Dramatic stuff. Really well written.
Good stuff. Also, really just kind of brave,
I think, from an authorship kind of standpoint.
Because this is a fairly decent bit of the plot
that we're not following who I would identify
as our main character. Hazel is not in this bit.
Yeah. He's not part of this adventure. We only
get to see Hazel in a couple of little cutaways
and always to hype up the drama and the excitement
to be like, we haven't heard from Big Wig. He
didn't report in. What's going on in there? And
so it's used advantageously. We don't get to
see Hazel and her crew nearly enough to ensure
our confidence in the plan. It's like not seeing
the shark in jaws, not knowing whether Big Wig's
friends are going to be able to help. So we have
finally the big escape scene. This might actually
be my favourite action scene in the book. I love
how they... It's very good. I agree. I wouldn't
say it's my favourite, but yeah. Well, I like
it how certain things come back because don't
they, they escape down a river again. So it's
that kind of call back to the earlier scene.
You know, Big Wig has seen what works. It's something
that kind of slightly confuses the local rabbits
for at least a short while when they kind of
make off down the river. And like I said, you
don't know where they are. Exactly. There's this
really great bit where they come up with this
clever escape plan. And then there's this moment
of, well, now what? Because, you know, it's out
of the frying pan into the fire. They go down
river and then their boat gets stuck. And then
rabbits do not like to swim. It's very disadvantageous.
And then there's this moment of having to solve
this new problem. And I really like the way this
tension is ramped up in this scene. But you're
right, eventually they do get back and things
get to develop further. Now, Geordi, this is
what I really want to talk about. The enemy rabbits
are then like, right, they've gone back, we've
tracked them, they're at Watership Down, we're
going to go and take them. And they send in,
not Woundwart, but one of his captains, I think.
Is it Capion? Campion. Campion. It's like I didn't
actually hear someone say it this time, but then
I wrote it down, and obviously then it has to
go through my appalling dyslexic phonetic spelling,
and I’m having to read it back to myself. Captain
Campion. They discover that I watered it down,
and we get this really cool mole dilemma. Such
actually walking... Do you know what? This was
clearly such a big inspiration on The Walking
Dead than anyone's ever called it out for before.
This is such a scene. where this patrol group,
getting their water shit down, Hazel and F1 identifies
them, and then they're like, we've got to kill
them all, so they don't find out where we are.
I can't understand the character that says this.
It's not Black Bray. Who is it who's like, we
need to kill them all? Maybe Silver? Silver's
cool? I’ll go with Silver. Silver makes this
cool. But Hazel, being our morally righteous
person, Doesn't. And they eventually do... Woundwart
and his men come back to Watership Down to take
it. Actually, you know who it was? It was, um...
It was, like, what is it called? Like, Blaggard.
Like, the captive rabbit they rescued from, um...
From the other Warren. Oh! Oh, from Woundwart's
Warren. Yeah, it's, um... Blackavar. yeah he's
the one who says that but yes you're right uh
Woundwarts and his crew eventually like catch
up to them they find warship down which they
hoped they never would and um prepare for an
a war like a proper rabbit war and there are
lots of little moments in this climax which i
think are just the most beautiful crescendos
to these characters that we've seen develop over
the course of the novel I think we get this,
this climax. It's, it's, it's legitimately amazing.
I once, I had high expectations of this scene
because Duncan, once upon a time, I was on, uh,
I was on Reddit. I was on the fantasy subreddit
and someone said, what is the best battle in
fantasy? And the top comment was, um, what was
it? It would be, uh, Helm's Deep. And then someone
brought up, The next one was the battle from
the heroes. And the third one was like some big
battle in the wheel of time, whatever that is.
And then the fourth from the top was the battle
for Watership Down. I’m tempted to put this above
Helm's Deep. Maybe I need to reread it. It's
definitely clearer. Yeah, it's so exciting. It's
so dramatic. It really, it's so full of dread.
It really does feel like, my God, how are they
going to get out of this? You really feel like
everything is on the line. And it's all of these,
we have three main characters, basically, and
all of them get to contribute in a way that feels
unique to them and feels perilous. Fiverr has
this really strange contribution, which is...
It really highlights and taps into this ephemeral
magic. You know, we know that Fiverr has these
strange instincts. And the way he contributes
to the final battle, despite being the smallest
rabbit, is he, like, freaks out. And he makes
this, like, I was supposed to say inhuman, un
-rabbit -like noise. He makes this strange bellow
where he says, Get out! Get out! and then like
he gets into such a fit because of this this
this this great effort but he like collapses
and he like almost dies from stress but the sound
that this makes we've glossed over the fact that
like the thing that makes Hazel's crew unique
is that they collaborate with non -rabbits They
have a seagull friend called Kaha, and the enemy
rabbits know this, so when they hear this noise
from down below, they go, oh my god, they've
got another, like, alien on their side. What
the hell's going on? And it freaks out the enemy,
and it slows them down. A really nice kind of
development, by the way, which we have Saisha
kind of glossed over, is the fact that, you know,
Hazel's group is doing things differently, and
that's why they're so effective. Yes, Fiverr
gets this great moment where he kind of digs
deep. Big week's moment. Oh, my God. Going for
the fight. Standing his ground. This is last
stand territory. JT now might be one of my favourite
moments of a warrior going, right, there's the
line in the sand. No one's going to cross it
while I’m still alive. Absolutely. It's totally
classic stuff in its own way. And yet. Something
about this scene just makes it stand out above
all the other hold the line scenes to me. Because
the way in which this works, the invasion happens,
they're outnumbered, they're outgunned because
all these rabbits are really big and mean. Hazel
comes up with one last plan and he tells Big Wig,
Big Wig, stay here and don't let them pass until
the plan comes through. Big Wig does not know
what the plan is. There's no time to explain.
Hazel and some other rabbits go tearing off.
And we don't even get to know what the plan is.
All we know is Big Wig has to stand here. And
the first person to come in after him is Woundwart,
the biggest, meanest, most vicious rabbit. It's
waiting for the cavalry to come. It's my favourite
fantasy trope. It's true. So... When Big Wig
comes to the stand, there's a great deal of characterisation
which really shows the different worldview here.
And I want to really hype this up because I think
it's so important to World of Warcraft's characterisation
and Big Wig's character development. Big Wig
puts up a really good fight. He stands his ground,
he gives his all, and he almost, he's like torn
to shreds in this fight. But he still forces.
Woundwart back. Woundwart, for the first time
ever, retreats from a fight. And Woundwart challenges
him, wanting to understand, why don't you move?
Why don't you get out of the way? And Big Wig
says, simply, as though it's the most obvious
thing in the world to him, my chief rabbit told
me to stand my ground here, and I’m not going
until he tells me otherwise. And how does Woundwart
respond to this, Duncan? Woundwart, in his limited
worldview, is just like, wait, Big Wig isn't the
chief. If this is, like, how bad is this? How
big and fierce must the boss be if Big Wig is
taking orders? And that's the thing that really
works about this scene. If... You know, he had
a better philosophy. If Woundwart wasn't convinced
in the power of right makes might, he would win.
You know, his ideas are what failed him. It's
a wonderful moment, but then we actually then
do get Hazel's moment. Hazel's, remember he tears
off with Blackberry, my man. I don't know, all
of them are great. If anything, I think Silver,
I think I maybe underappreciate. I agree. I think
Silver really needed a moment. Yes, he's like
one of the younger ones, isn't he? They go screaming
off because, hey, there's a clever idea. And
they go back to a farm they visited earlier.
And they're going to... Basically, they're going
to go and lure the dog to the battlefield. Somewhat,
you could describe maybe as the nuclear option.
Just as likely to harm everyone involved. Anyway.
And... This is our climax. This is the cavalry
arriving in this terrifying form. This great
Labrador comes boarding onto the scene. And I
really do think it's, I mean, it's tragic, sad,
slightly, slightly humorous. Because we've been
dealing with these big, burly, scary bunny rabbits.
And there is a little bit when the dog shows
up and you go, oh yeah, they're still just rabbits.
Oh, I don't know, they're just getting slaughtered.
I know. It's so great that, like, this great
battle, you know, like a medieval stand, just
suddenly a bigger, more fearsome animal shows
up. And that animal, like, it's only described
as a dog up to this point. It's only later when
the humans get a perspective on it that, like,
oh, it's a Labrador called Bob. I know. So he,
Bob, Bob tears through the battlefield. Now,
there's some... Key bits here, but I think just
to kind of hit on, I think one of the most important,
is Woundwart's fate. Because Woundwart, he doesn't
back down from a fight, even when it's very clear
he should. And Woundwart stands his ground against
this lumbering animal coming towards him. And
we don't get to really see what happens to him.
No, that's the great thing. You know, like...
All the other rabbits bolt as he's like, cowards,
stand your ground. That's my Peter Bacaldi wound
wart impression. And we never find his remains.
You know, they come out after the battle is done
and they're like, there's no sign of Woundwart.
What could have happened to him? To me, I’m like,
well, there's no trace of him because he got
eaten. There is nothing left because he is in
Bob the Labrador's tummy. But this actually becomes
really interesting, the way in which the vanishing
of Woundwart is used. Because after the story's
done, and we move forward into the future, and
they've made this new society in which Hazel
has managed to create, there's this fantastic
moment. I really like this, Duncan. I hope you
did as well. We've heard all these amazing stories
of El-ahrairah throughout their adventures. where
they've taken inspiration from him and he's acted
as this the source of of courage for them because
like oh if if the great Ella Rayra could get
through worse stuff we can get through this one
of the does one of the mothers is telling a story
to Fiverr's children and she recounts the story
of the farm of silver wires but with Ella Rayra
as the hero And the wonderful thing is, the rabbits
who were there don't even realise that this is
what's happening. I know. It's such a nice moment
to see how their folklore continues to be adding
to it. For a second there, and it gets corrected
almost immediately, I was like, is this sort
of the story of how Ero Ero never existed? Is
he just this combination of all of rabbits, heroism
and feats? Oh, I think... I think that's exactly
the implication. And because I think that's,
this is how they tell an, they keep an oral history.
They keep a history of great events and they
attribute them to one rabbit so that it can be
passed down. And they use the wisdom of the ages
from rabbits like Fiverr, like Big Wig, like Hazel,
who survived to tell their stories and add them
to the canon of El-ahrairah. But we also get this
lovely addition because there's another legend
now among rabbits. Not just the glorious adventures
of El-ahrairah, but also of the boogeyman of rabbits.
The terrifying figure of Woundwart who haunts
the grounds. General Woundwart. Exactly. He's
the new boogeyman. He's the one who says, like,
oh, you better behave, little rabbit kitten.
Otherwise, Woundwart will get you. I think it's
such a nice idea of, like, he was larger than
life as a character to a lot of people as well.
So the fact that he kind of goes into their oral
history. In a weird way, it's almost a bit upsetting
that, like... Our villain becomes like this named
part of oral history and our heroes just blend
into the legacies that already exist. Now, I’m
glad you brought that up, Duncan, because I need
to correct myself. Because I noted this whilst
I was reading it because I had the exact same
thought as you. But actually, when they say...
oh oh be be a good rabbit and behave or the general
will get you they don't actually say Woundwart
he becomes a stock character like someone out
of commedia dell 'arte you know he's now depersonalized
unlike the others who are at least personalized
in the character of elorera and whatever his
his buddy you know his moon glum is called you
know i suppose you're yeah no you're right and
in many respects it's sort of just goes to the
fact that Hazel embodies Eleira at this point.
If Eleira never exists, then Hazel is as much
Eleira as any other rabbit has ever been. Exactly.
And that's what I liked about this revelation.
It's the fact that not only are the feats that
our characters that they've done are elevated
to that of legend, they've now become part of
this canon. It also, it made me feel this warm
and fuzzy feeling inside to know that generations
and generations of rabbits, and considering how
short their lives are, probably thousands of
generations of rabbits have succeeded. They've
gone through these same trials and they've come
out the other side, able to tell their kittens
about their own stories to pass them down. All
these different legendary ideas that we've seen
attributed to Elorira were once upon a time,
they were just ordinary rabbit adventures. Stealing
rabbit from human farmers. Tussling with Elio.
And I just really liked that. I just really liked
this idea that all of these little adventures
hold this great significance in their society.
So, Eddie, I believe we are moving to a close
now. So would you like to just give your kind
of final thoughts and recommendations? Watership
down. If you haven't been paying attention, we
very much liked it. But I think there is maybe
a slightly more complex question of who we recommend
it to. Now, that is a good question, Duncan.
Myself, I think this is a pretty universal recommendation.
I don't know. So the great challenge of this
is that. Your first instinct is to say, it's
about rabbits, so it's for kids. And that's obviously
not true because of all the violence. But Richard
Adams did tell this story. It began as a story
to his two daughters. We learned that in the
preface to the book. I don't know when I would
start recommending this to kids. I think 12 or
13 might be the right point. That's when I read
The Knife of Never Letting Go, and this book
is about the same in terms of violence. I’m inclined
to very much agree with you. This book is a very
universal recommendation for me. I think it's
beautifully done. It achieves everything it sets
out to do, and it has a general poignancy which
puts it on the upper echelons of all books that
we have covered on this podcast. That recommendation
is hard. Yeah, I definitely agree. That misconstruing
around the rabbits is something that I’m like,
oh... But I think you're right. Maybe I would
just have to maybe just call this PG. Is that
cheating? Parental guidance. You're an adult.
You know your kid. Make a call. Yes, that's true.
Probably not below 10. But I probably saw the
movie when I was eight. I’d say so. And that
was probably worse than the book. My dad read
to me, like, The Suttle Knife and the Amber Spyglass
when I was 10, and I think I was just about the
right age for that, because there is some violence
in those books as well. But not the ideas in
this are not as hefty. So yeah, I’m 11, 12 years
old, enough to know what sex is, basically. And
more than that, yeah, not just for kids, this
is a universal recommendation for me. If you
like fantasy... You should read this book because
it's an amazing adventure story. And this is
a weird thing to say on this podcast because
I am literally speaking to the air. If you're
not a fan of fantasy, this is a great book anyway.
Like, it doesn't feel like a fantasy novel. Fiverr
may be a wizard, but he's not like a Gandalf
wizard, you know? No, it foregoes a lot of the
traditional trappings. Like I said, even at the
start, I originally thought I was getting into
a bit of a traditional quest format. I was like,
here's our fellowship. Off we go. But GeordI’s
right. It does have a little bit more of that
post -apocalyptic, journeying across the harsh
land kind of vibe, rather than your Lord of the
Rings. Or even like a Saving Private Ryan. Yes.
Yes, another great one. It genuinely has more
of a vibe in tune with... world war ii stories
of bands of brothers or saving private ryan than
it does with some of your more classical fantasy
not that they don't probably have a joint inspiration
again tolkien world war one you know it's it's
all feeding in there but that's generally where
i you can more directly see those influences
or draw parallels no way to put it all right
mate great book I reckon to pretty much anyone,
if you like this podcast, you'll like this book.
I full -heartedly agree. It's a shame about some
of the production values on the audiobook. And
if you do like this podcast, please rate it five
stars on your podcast service of choice. Absolutely.
If you have read Watership Down and want to share
your thoughts with us, if you've seen one of
the many different adaptations, tell us what
they're like. I’ve only seen the classic animated
one. I know there was one on Netflix a few years
back. Let us know. The best place, as always,
is our Instagram, instafantasypodcast on Instagram.
You can also email us directly at instafantasypodcast
.gmail .com. We have a Blue Sky account now,
so go and check us out over there. Oh, we do?
We do. I didn't even know that. Very little gets
posted there, but I am picking up the slack.
It's always great to hear from you. It makes
our weeks every time. And if you're listening
on a podcasting app, please do and just drop
us. uh review hit for five stars or how many
stars you think we deserve it goes an awful long
way if anything just makes our day duncan what
is the blue sky it's what's outside oh right
sorry seriously it is a social media platform
similar to um duncan what is our blue sky account
oh good question georgie We are Just Fantasy
Podcast on Blue Sky. We weren't allowed enough
letters for the full name. It was an agony to
write. Okay, cool. We're Just Fantasy Podcast
at Blue Sky. Thank you, Duncan. Well, I will
definitely be checking that out since I just
found out it exists. And, Duncan, I bet people
can find out a little bit more about what we're
reading next time if they head to our Blue Sky.
But, Duncan... What is that going to be? What
book are you going to choose for us? Geordie,
we've had an amazing start to the year. We've
hit some big names, and somewhat I want to continue
that tradition. But we've also gone quite off
-piste. We've done different things that have
got a different spin on the fantasy genre. And,
Geordie, I want to go and eat some comfort food
again. I’m sorry, after the Bonesmith, that might
appall you, the idea. That's just what I’m feeling
in the mood for. So I’m going to do a book that
I’ve been meaning to do since our very first
year of doing this podcast. It's by an author
that I can say that I’ve enjoyed everything of
theirs that I’ve read, but I certainly haven't
read nearly even half of all their works because
they are one hell of a prolific author. We're
going to be reading Magician by Raymond E. Feist,
the first in the Rift War saga. And to be more
precise, Geordie... Because I’m nice, and we've
only got two weeks between episodes, we're going
to be covering Magician's Apprentice, also Magician
Part 1, depending on your region. All right.
Okay. So this is the Rift War saga. It's pretty
famous in fantasy circles. I really don't know
anything about it whatsoever. I know it's about
wizards. Lots of wizards. And that's it. I don't
know when it was published. I don't know. how
many books there are in a series. I get the feeling
that this, we are going back to quite traditional
fantasy, however. Oh, Geordi, I’ll tell you now.
There are wizards, there are knights, there are
dwarves, there are elves. This has got all the
classic Tolkien -esque trappings in it. I don't
think we've actually had a book on the podcast
so far. In the, like, coming on to three years
that we've been doing this podcast. Not coming
on, over three years. that we've actually had
dwarves and elves in the story. Dickodge, you
may be right. Well, it's about time. So, I hope
you enjoy it. I hope you appreciate it for what
it is. If you've experienced Rift War, let us
know your thoughts on it. I can tell you now,
I’ve only read the original trilogy or saga of
Rift War. I think it's called the Rift War Saga
and the greatest is called the Rift War Cycle.
I may have got those the other way around. There's
so much content here, and I have to say, it's
something that I’ve read before and I’m a real
fan of, so I hope you like it too. Well, I’m
very interested, and I’m looking forward to it.
And I will be looking forward to it next time.
I’ve been your host, Geordie Bailey. And I’ve
been your other host, Duncan Nicol. Till next
time. Bye!