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Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This Just Fantasy?

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The podcast where every other week two nerds get together to rate, read and review a fantasy

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novel.

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I'm your host, Geordie Bailey.

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And I'm the man recording everything we do for the sake of the annuals, Duncan Nicoll.

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I love that.

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That's a really good intro, Duncan, but I did notice that you pronounced it as an annual,

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like a collection of Beano magazines.

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It's the annals.

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Oh, that's embarrassing.

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I'll have you know that I've read this entire series through and I have been pronouncing

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it the annuals the entire time.

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And even more embarrassing, Geordie, you're spot on.

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That's because I had the Beano as a kid.

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I knew it.

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I absolutely knew it.

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Duncan, I don't know how it's going to come across, but you do have Beano energy.

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Thank you.

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That's the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me.

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You lived by the seaside growing up.

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You probably ate fish and chips like for morning, noon and night.

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I mean, weekly.

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Did your school not have a fish and chip day?

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No, but the college I work for now does.

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So every Friday, if I want, I can get fish and chips.

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It was decreed at some point, I think.

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It was a lizard beefen.

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There was some sort of when they said everyone had to practice archery after church, there

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was also a we want to increase the amount of people eating fish.

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So the fishermen make more money.

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Do we do like a, you know, do we just do like a campaign?

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Do we just try to tell people how healthy it is?

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No, let's just say God decreed it.

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Yeah, Walter Raleigh came back from the Americas with the potato and Queen Elizabeth I said,

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this is great.

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We're going to celebrate this every Friday.

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Best decision she ever made.

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Right, Geordie.

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Let's get into no, before we get into things, let's ask the age old question.

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Geordie, have you been reading, watching, experiencing any other fancy related stuff or stuff you

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just want to join with us?

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Join with us, share with us.

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The last fortnight.

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I have not.

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I've had a very hectic time with work and I'm moving house.

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This is the last time I'll be recording in this room and heaven knows what the acoustics

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in the next one are going to sound like.

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So this might make or break the podcast, but no, I've not been reading anything.

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I do have something I'm looking forward to, but actually Duncan, I would like to bring

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that up last of all, because I think it would pivot quite well into the episode.

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So Duncan, have you been reading anything in the meantime?

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Yes, I have.

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I've actually finished two fantasy books in addition to the book of the day.

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I know I'm actually really pushed about out.

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I caught a real reading kick, which is funny.

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Well done, Duncan.

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I finished this book an hour ago.

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Well, I have read two other books.

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I read another Star Wars book, as we all know.

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I'm a big old fan and I just finished reading the Legends series book X-Wing Book 3, the

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Kratos Trap.

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I see.

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That's right.

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So this will be one of the books that is one of the very earliest books then, like after

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Return of the Jedi, but before the Thrawn trilogy.

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That is absolutely right.

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So this book series is really fun.

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It focuses on the fighter pilots in Rogue Squadron during the time where the rebellion

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is kind of retaking Coruscant, which is the imperial capital planet.

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And I think what's really nice about this series is that we don't follow a Jedi.

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You know, we're not following like the immortal crew and it just gives the whole thing a little

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bit more, dare I say, boots on the ground.

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This is the war from the perspective of a bit more of an average person.

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The third book in the series I really enjoyed.

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I didn't maybe enjoy it as much of the previous books.

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It kind of pivoted where the previous books in the series are very much more about starfighter

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action and daring battles above cityscapes.

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This book goes in a different direction, which I think it kind of needed to do to for the

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series not to kind of get repetitive.

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This focus around two main plots.

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You've got a military trial where one of the teammates has been framed for the murder of

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another teammate and you've got the trial itself and we've got the crew trying to prove

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his innocence and the whole sort of jag.

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I don't get that reference, but sure.

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That's amazing.

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Duncan, you know how the show NCIS is a detective show, but exclusively based around naval crimes?

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Yep.

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There was a TV show called Jags, which was a law show exclusively about Air Force crimes.

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Okay.

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Was it good?

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I don't fucking know.

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Why would I watch that?

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Well the other part of the book, which was really enjoyable as well, is that we then follow

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the character who he's been framed for murdering who turns out the whole time is actually in

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a top secret prison facility run by the Empire and his whole plot is this prison escape plot

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from the insane great escape.

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He starts out, he sort of notices a guard, he hatches a plan.

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The first one doesn't work out.

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It's a fun book.

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I highly recommend X-Wing for getting to the more expanded Star Wars universe.

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The other thing I finished reading though, Geordie, and you might be surprised about this.

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I finally finished Conan and the City of the Dead.

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I had been wondering about that Duncan.

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I was looking at it today being like, I wonder if he's done this yet?

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I wonder.

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Oh, I finally finished it off a mere five months after I recommended it on the podcast.

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I've actually finished the book.

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It's actually two stories.

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I read the first story in the collection before I did the recommendation.

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I've now finished the second story.

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It's really fun.

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If you're a fan of the character of Conan the Barbarian, obviously we did a whole episode

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talking about expanded works of the character.

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This is the book that I recommended above all else and I stand by that recommendation,

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especially now that I finished it.

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I think John C. Hocking, the author of the book, gets the voice of the character as well

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as anyone else ever has.

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When Conan speaks in this book, it sounds like Robert E. Howard's Conan is speaking.

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The other thing he does that's really well is the fact that obviously in these books,

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we know Conan's fine.

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He's the main character.

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He's in lots of stories after this, lots of stories before.

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It's like James Bond.

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He can't die, but John C. Hocking does a really nice time of bringing in an extended cast.

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In this book, it's like a group of mercenaries that have some really nice banter with Conan

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and he does a really good and really short time frame making you like these characters

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so you can feel that tension when they're in jeopardy.

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Sure, like Beyond Thunder River.

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Beyond the Black River, yes.

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It's Beyond Thunder River.

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No, I think of Drums Beyond Thunder River.

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That's what I'm thinking of.

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What is Drums Beyond Thunder River?

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Well Duncan, you should know because that's the first adventure that you ever ran from

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us in the Conan RPG system.

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You're absolutely right.

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I've completely forgotten about that.

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Yes, the Conan A-Dreams and Land, no.

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Adventures and Land, no.

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Adventures in the Age I Dreamed Of.

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That's it.

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2D20.

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They're bringing out another Conan RPG, which I do have an eye on.

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They've gone very much the opposite direction.

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So the previous Conan RPG was, let's make this more complex than anything else.

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Let's mechanize everything.

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That's not true, but yeah.

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There were a lot of rules.

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That's true.

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There were rules, but no rules for gaining experience points.

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It was just, ah, make it up.

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The game developers decided how many XP you get.

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Each player can get a different amount.

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You're like, what the fuck?

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Did you just stop trying?

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Why didn't you write rules for experience points?

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It blew my mind.

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At that point, just say this whole game is based on a milestone system.

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Do an adventure, like a classic Robbie, Howard, Conan adventure, and then let them level up.

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Right, but it's not a leveling system.

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It's a talent based game, like Lancer or something.

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Which means that you need to run it from experience points because the amount you're spending

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on your different abilities can vary a lot.

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Ugh, God.

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I can't believe we're still having this same conversation.

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Wouldn't that have been like, that would have been like 2016.

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So this is nine years later.

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Duncan, you and I are still talking about this.

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Wow, we've been friends a long time.

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That's cool.

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I know.

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That's lovely.

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With the 2016, was that actually?

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Gosh.

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Well, that's when I went to university and I'm pretty sure it was in my first year.

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Yeah, it was first year.

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I played in your room.

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That's how we met.

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We met over D&D.

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Ah, the good old days.

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Right.

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Talking about reminiscing about the good old days in books with mercenary companies.

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No, Duncan, I said I had something I was looking forward to, remember?

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Sorry, Shorty, go ahead.

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So next week, guys, in fact, the day, maybe the day this episode releases.

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Nope.

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Everyone, happy Valentine's Day.

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Aw, that's really sweet.

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Are you saying you are also excited for the new Bridget Jones movie coming out on Valentine's

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Day?

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Duncan, I am not.

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That's not what I have in mind.

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Um, what, obviously the most, there's one thing which Valentine's Day is really all

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about and it's not the release of the new Bridget Jones movie and it's not the release

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of the new Captain America movie and it's not the release of, uh, The Chasm, a straight

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to Apple TV movie that actually looks pretty good.

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Of course, Valentine's Day is all about the latest chapter of Berserk.

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Wow.

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I cannot believe it.

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There's no story more romantic than Berserk.

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And after a full month, we're getting the next chapter.

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The love story of Guts and Griffiths needs to be told.

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Exactly.

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And it's only, I'm not going to lie, Shorty, it's only just clicked in my head that when

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you say chapter, you're not saying volume and chapters are like 12 pages long.

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No, no, no, no, no.

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We're getting 40 pages of content at most.

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Is this a return to a regular schedule?

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Er, this is pretty regular actually.

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I mean, yeah, regular just means consistent.

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It doesn't actually mean frequent.

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Yeah, yeah.

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This is pretty, this is kind of ahead of schedule.

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Actually, it's like a four month break instead of a six month break.

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That's, that's pretty, that's pretty abrupt.

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Nonetheless, I'm looking forward to that.

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And as you said, and as I've sort of said, mercenary companies, Guts was in a mercenary

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company.

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He was, and today we are talking about quite possibly the granddaddy of Dark Fantasy Mercenary

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Company Fiction, The Black Company by author Glenn Cook.

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Indeed.

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And much like in our discussion of Berserk, we're going to have to start this off with

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a pretty heavy trigger warning.

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Oh, most certainly.

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This book has some incredibly dark themes.

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It depicts sexual violence.

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It depicts paedophilia.

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It has a consistent level of homophobia throughout.

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Yikes.

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Yeah, it is grim.

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And as you said, it's sort of the granddaddy of the grim dark genre.

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So as you might expect, proceed with caution if this really isn't your thing, because we

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are going to have to discuss it in some level of detail, as well as how it handles the topic.

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I guess then, for the benefit of those who might be dipping out right now, Duncan, should

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we start off by giving our opinions on how we found it?

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Now I know this is not your first time doing this.

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In fact, I believe you just said you've read the whole series.

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I have.

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So I'm a fan of Glenn Cook.

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I'm a fan of Glenn Cook's The Black Company.

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I have read over 10 books in this universe, all the way through the series, and I enjoy

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it.

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I like it.

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I have enjoyed where it goes, the ideas it brings up.

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I like Glenn Cook's writing.

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But it's worth noting that I'm also the type of person who read Prince of Thorns and The

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Broken Empire.

248
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,040
Like that's the content that I can put myself through.

249
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:44,880
There are moments that it made me feel a bit uncomfortable, and I generally think my bar

250
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,240
is quite high for this.

251
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So that's the big warning.

252
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:57,560
But I do enjoy this because I feel like what it does really well is it portrays this sort

253
00:12:57,560 --> 00:13:06,720
of dark and brutal and bleak world, while still populating it with, not likeable, compelling

254
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,400
characters.

255
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,160
Compelling's a good word.

256
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,960
And that's what really kind of drives the series is the character work, I think, more

257
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:14,960
than anything else.

258
00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,320
But yeah, Geordie, what are your thoughts?

259
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:24,520
Now Duncan, I got the sense from the text you sent me prior to the start of this episode,

260
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:29,120
I got the feeling that you might be a little bit nervous about how I would find this one,

261
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,560
especially given my negative reception to the previous book we did, The Straight Razor's

262
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:35,760
Cure.

263
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:41,080
This is certainly a series that I was nervous because I do enjoy it, but it's also one of

264
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,320
those things where if you really came out swinging at it, I feel like I would struggle

265
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:51,560
in places to explain my enjoyment, mostly because it comes from the same place I kind

266
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:52,560
of mentioned.

267
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:57,600
I find something very compelling and very gripping in this sort of dark world, less

268
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:04,720
so than I find it necessary a rip-roaring ride and a fun time throughout.

269
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,840
So yeah, I am very nervous that you found it.

270
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,960
What do you think, Geordie?

271
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:17,640
Considering how much I griped on the previous episode for being dark and broody, you might

272
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,800
be surprised that I really, really liked this book.

273
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,520
I am a little bit.

274
00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:23,520
Wow.

275
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,300
Go on.

276
00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:28,240
And here's what it comes down to.

277
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,320
Here's what it comes down to.

278
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,500
No ifs, no buts.

279
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:38,560
It works here because Glenn Cook is a much better writer than Daniel Polanski.

280
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,040
I'm not going to argue that.

281
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,520
Yeah, it really is a skill issue.

282
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:50,240
You know, the striking way this story is written, which is frankly kind of daring, not even

283
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,800
in terms of the topics it's willing to discuss.

284
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:59,040
And I'm going to be quite frank, as much as we have issued a very appropriate trigger

285
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,440
warning about sexual violence.

286
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:08,200
This is the grand daddy for a reason, because it is nowhere near as out there and excessive

287
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,160
as what I kind of expected from it, considering its reputation.

288
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,520
It certainly plays sometimes emotionally impassive.

289
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:21,440
It's all about this is happening, I'm going to tell you, but I'm not going to give you

290
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,560
the grisly details.

291
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,200
I'm not going to give you the ins and outs and the intimate moments of these horrific

292
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,200
events.

293
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,480
It's more like they're happening over there.

294
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,280
Yeah, and it's not overwrought.

295
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,760
And it also works very well in the way the story is packaged, because this, possibly

296
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:46,520
more than any other book we've read so far, has the strongest authorial voice.

297
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:51,000
It probably comes up short compared to something like The Black Tongue Thief, which is like

298
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,400
a masterclass in writing a story with a very strong voice.

299
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,580
But this is coming quite close.

300
00:15:58,580 --> 00:16:00,400
I'm so glad you brought that up.

301
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,600
So Geordie, let's just lay a bit of groundwork.

302
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:07,760
And then I do just want to maybe give out some information about the wider series and

303
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,360
see how you kind of respond to that and my experience on this reread.

304
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:13,760
Sure, go ahead.

305
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:18,520
So for those approaching Black Company, it is about the Black Company, this mercenary

306
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:19,780
band.

307
00:16:19,780 --> 00:16:25,880
We follow, well, the stories we tell to us by a character called Croker, who is not only

308
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,520
the company's physician, he is also their analyst.

309
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,800
Have I said that right?

310
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:33,800
Analyst.

311
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:34,800
Analyst.

312
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,160
Excellent, thank you.

313
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:42,960
His job is to recount the stories of the company, write them down for preservation's sake,

314
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,360
and very much so to keep a sense of community of the company.

315
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,040
There's a really nice scene later on where he actually does readings, like it's part

316
00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,840
of like a church service where he gets the company together, he's made of different creeds,

317
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,320
and tells them a story of what the company has done in the past.

318
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,680
You know, you think it's bad now, guys, let me tell you a tale of the siege of Torn, where

319
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,440
we stood our ground.

320
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,520
And it's any kind of nice how it kind of creates that sense.

321
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,120
And this first book of the Black Company.

322
00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:16,840
Tradition and continuity, like they are a culture that they belong to onto themselves.

323
00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,360
And we pick up with the company just about when they begin their campaigns on the northern

324
00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:28,880
continent, where the rule of the empire that spans the northern continent, a great sorceress

325
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:35,200
known simply as the Lady, is having lots of pesky revolts and rebellions launched against

326
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,200
her.

327
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:42,120
So she's got in one of her chief wizards, an order known as the Taken, the ten who were

328
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:47,840
taken, to go and get a mercenary company from across the sea to come along and help her

329
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,840
crush these pesky revolts.

330
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,960
And when you're reading the Black Company, the first trilogy of books, known as the Books

331
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,520
of the North, follow that conflict in its entirety.

332
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,840
Then the series does go on after that.

333
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,200
After that, we get a three book series known as the Books of the South.

334
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:05,960
Guess where they take place.

335
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:11,440
And then there's a texturology called the Books of Glittering Stone.

336
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:17,120
And that takes us up from when the first book was released in the mid 80s to the year 2000.

337
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:24,320
There was then a big long gap, but in 2018 we got a mid-cool book called Port of Shadows,

338
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,240
which was set between the first and second books in the Books of the North trilogy.

339
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:36,280
And already very exciting news, Glenn Cook at the right old age of 80, he's at it again.

340
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:44,160
Later this year, we're getting the first book in the Pityless Rain texturology, called trilogy,

341
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:51,120
not quite sure, four books in another arc that will continue the series.

342
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:54,520
So I'm very excited for that.

343
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,920
What I will just say about the Black Company as someone who's read the whole series, if

344
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,640
you come into this and you're like, oh, that's a lot of books, I'm intimidated by the sheer

345
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,920
scale, the first trilogy is completely self-contained.

346
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:08,920
It's done.

347
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,040
You can finish on The White Rose, which is the last book in the Books of the North trilogy

348
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,760
and be completely satisfied.

349
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,120
And I do believe Glenn Cook wrote it as such, but he didn't know if he was going to be writing

350
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:20,120
more at that point.

351
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:21,120
Sure.

352
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:25,040
So that is very much put to the side.

353
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,320
Something else I would also say, Geordie, I'm really glad that you liked The Black Company,

354
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:34,760
because when I reread this book, I liked it a lot more than I did on the first time through.

355
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,120
Maybe because I knew the world a bit better, I'm familiar with some of these characters,

356
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:39,120
I knew where they were going.

357
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:44,280
I had a much nicer time of the first book, because as a series as a whole, while I think

358
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:50,000
that Black Company, the book, is really, really, it's a great book with great ideas, it's also

359
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,920
the first ever novel that Glenn Cook wrote and published.

360
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,600
And I would actually say he hasn't hit his stride yet.

361
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:02,240
I do think it takes to the least the sequel to him as an author to really get going and

362
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,320
become the masterclass that he is later on.

363
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,320
Wow.

364
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:11,480
Now that is the idea that this is one, his first book, which I didn't know, and that's

365
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,440
extremely impressive.

366
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,240
And two, that he gets better from here.

367
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,760
That is striking stuff.

368
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:24,000
I was already very interested in reading ahead and following and seeing where the story goes

369
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,000
from here.

370
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:32,640
And I wasn't sure, Duncan, that if I read the next book, that I would even know what

371
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:33,640
was happening.

372
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:41,280
And the reason for that is in the great meta-narrative around the Black Company and the Annals.

373
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,080
Now this is something which I know because I'm a fan of Matt Colville, and he's spoken

374
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,520
about the Black Company a lot as an influence.

375
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:55,480
He even based his live D&D show, The Chain of Acheron, on it heavily.

376
00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:02,720
I also own an RPG which I've never played before called Band of Blades, which is extraordinarily

377
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:03,720
inspired by the Black Company.

378
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:09,240
Do you want to lead the Black Company on a doomed quest to outrun an army of undead?

379
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:10,240
Yes.

380
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,880
You can do that in the Band of Blades.

381
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,840
Maybe we'll play that another time.

382
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,720
But the reason why I wasn't sure what was going to come next is that I knew that the

383
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,920
Black Company takes place over a long period of time.

384
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:31,260
I'm not quite sure what this is, Duncan, but am I right in saying it's centuries of history?

385
00:21:31,260 --> 00:21:32,480
Not quite, no.

386
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:40,320
So the Black Company, we only follow about 40 to 60 years of the Black Company's history.

387
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,400
The Black Company itself has existed for about 400 years.

388
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,080
We kind of only really follow one generation of Torch, so the characters that you see in

389
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,160
this series sort of exit as the...

390
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:56,800
By the time of Book 10, it's this generation of characters, I won't give specific names,

391
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:04,440
who makes it that far, pass the torch to the next generation of analysts, captains, and

392
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:05,720
all of that.

393
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:06,960
Okay, interesting.

394
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:12,080
The point is though is that what you get a sense of in this book is the long, profound

395
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:19,000
history of the Black Company and the idea that what you're following more than just

396
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:26,400
the Croker as your main perspective character, it's not about any individual character, for

397
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,400
the most part.

398
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,360
It definitely feels like it towards the end.

399
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:31,240
It's about this larger conflict.

400
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:38,480
It's about this body, this group, this unit, and its identity more than it is about anything

401
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:39,760
else.

402
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:45,600
And that's really compellingly told to us by the way in which Croker isn't that interested

403
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,000
in the battles.

404
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,840
This is a war story.

405
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,440
It's about an actual mercenary company that goes to numerous locations.

406
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:55,800
It's on the march for months.

407
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:02,200
It's involved in many battles, but only two of them are written about in any kind of remote

408
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,640
detail.

409
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:09,600
There is an amazing moment early on which encapsulates this so beautifully.

410
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,880
And actually, Geordie, I'm just going to go and read you the quote.

411
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,920
So give me one second.

412
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,440
Sure, sure.

413
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:18,680
Okay.

414
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:25,360
To demonstrate Geordie's point so incredibly strongly.

415
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:31,480
We've just received orders that they need to take the fortress at Deal.

416
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:32,480
They get the orders.

417
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,200
The captain says, is that it?

418
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:35,200
The captain grumbled.

419
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,000
That's it, the messenger says.

420
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,240
We'll keep in touch.

421
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:41,240
So we went and did it.

422
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:46,240
We captured the fortress at Deal in the dead of night within howling distance of awe.

423
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,040
There you go.

424
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,040
That's the entire siege battle.

425
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,320
And then we literally jumped to, one eye flipped a card over into a discard pile.

426
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,480
He muttered, somebody's sandbagging.

427
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,920
We just go straight into the bits that Croaker cares about, which are them all playing cards

428
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:03,920
afterwards.

429
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:04,920
Yes.

430
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:12,680
Exactly, because I have a much more profound memory of that line about the sandbagging

431
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,560
and going straight into the card game, because the personal relationships which he has are

432
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:18,760
the things he's focusing on.

433
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,960
He doesn't actually care that much about these pretty inconsequential battles.

434
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:23,960
And that's fantastic.

435
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:34,160
It reminds me of, so in the Anglo-Saxon chronicle, Duncan, there are two years which we know nothing

436
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,160
about.

437
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:40,280
We know nothing about what happens in these years in the last days of Edward the Confessor's

438
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:45,120
reigns because the monks who were writing this thing down only cared about the fact

439
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:47,520
that their roof was being fixed.

440
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,800
Oh, that's amazing.

441
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,920
And it's brilliant.

442
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:02,400
And I really want to hone in on, we can talk specifically about the different characters

443
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:09,640
because you're right to say that they are compelling, but they are not detailed characters.

444
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:15,840
We get an overall impression of characters based on Croaker's perception of them, but

445
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:22,480
almost everyone is surrounded by a great shroud of mystery.

446
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:28,160
Sometimes that's on purpose, there's a dualist explanation for that.

447
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:34,000
Glenn Cook is being deliberately vague about people's history and backstory to keep us

448
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,680
intrigued as readers, but also the fact is that everyone in the Black Company has a shady

449
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:45,160
past and no one's really that interested in finding out what each other's deal is, so

450
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:51,160
Croaker doesn't interrogate the personalities or histories of the people around them.

451
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:56,320
He has to just sort of take them as they are and then moan about them a little bit.

452
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,560
And Croaker draws attention to this.

453
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:06,520
He makes it very clear, a big factor is that no one's using anyone's real name.

454
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:07,520
Everyone has a bit of a nickname.

455
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,440
No one in this book, I'm pretty sure, has an actual name.

456
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:21,200
Maybe Darling's Grandpa has a name, but everyone else is known by a moniker or a super-k.

457
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,120
And obviously for some of the wizards in the party, that's like a very intentional factor.

458
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:32,600
There's a very element of the true name having power in this book.

459
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,400
Which I love as like a feature of a magic system.

460
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,280
And so it does, it plays double roles.

461
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:43,520
It both is part of the lore, why they're like this, and like you said, there's the meta-narrative

462
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,280
for just it builds intrigue.

463
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,080
What do we know about One Eye's Pass?

464
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:54,080
Why is Raven, yeah, why is Raven really good at killing people and why is he an asshole?

465
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:55,080
We will never know.

466
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,120
Can I just actually drop in a little point about the future of the series as well?

467
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:03,000
This is something that Glinko very much maintains.

468
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,840
You don't need to fear that we're going to pry into the background.

469
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:14,000
Jim Croker, who's our primary POV throughout the majority of the entire series, we know

470
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,560
so little about his backstory and where he came from.

471
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,040
I think we've learned the majority of it in this book.

472
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,600
And at one point in the books of the South, they're literally at a crossroad and he goes,

473
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,880
yeah, I don't think my home is that far away from here.

474
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:29,880
And that's the only line.

475
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,280
And then they move on.

476
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:39,400
You can tell by the way we talk about this how striking and off-kilter this book is sometimes.

477
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:45,400
There are so many periods of time where you genuinely have no idea what's happening.

478
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,520
And that's very much on purpose.

479
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:53,760
You have this real sense that you've picked up a document that exists in this world.

480
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,080
And he's not going to bother explaining shit that you should already know.

481
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,680
He doesn't say who the lady is.

482
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,400
You just have to pay attention.

483
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,840
You just have to figure that out.

484
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,920
Not to keep talking.

485
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,520
It wasn't even clear to me when the Legate was telling them, like, you have to go do

486
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:12,520
this.

487
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:13,520
Don't worry about the syndic.

488
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:14,520
I'll take care of that.

489
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,640
I'm like, literally what the fuck is happening right now?

490
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,040
I just have to pay attention and write it out.

491
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,640
That was such my experience when I first picked up this book.

492
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,840
I think a lot of people will have that.

493
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,200
And I think it's really important to highlight not to be concerned about that.

494
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,160
That is on purpose.

495
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,200
It's not you the reader.

496
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,840
And I have to admit, Dodie, there was quite a lot of stretch in this book, even on a reread,

497
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:46,240
that I had to stop, go back to the top of the page and be like, wait, what's happening

498
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,240
here?

499
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,240
Yeah.

500
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,320
I did that all the time.

501
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:56,680
Now that's partly that's this deliberate vagueness that surrounds everything.

502
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,200
Now I might have missed this Duncan because of this very abrupt style.

503
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:07,720
But to my understanding, when Raven's introduced, there's a scene where like he kills some people,

504
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,220
including a woman, but it's not explained why he's done this.

505
00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:13,860
It's just like, say like, this is something that he had to do.

506
00:29:13,860 --> 00:29:20,520
And then way later down the line, like several chapters later, Croker casually drops the

507
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,800
information that the woman in question was his wife.

508
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,800
And it's only at this point that we've learned this.

509
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,280
Am I right in saying so?

510
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:29,440
Yes and no.

511
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,160
If you read that first scene again, you know, it's drawn your Croker draws attention to

512
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:39,760
that, that the only thing Raven takes, despite everyone having a lot of jewelry, is a ring

513
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,120
from the woman.

514
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:43,760
And that's the only hint you get.

515
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:44,760
Yeah.

516
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,760
Early on in the text.

517
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:51,120
To be fair, if I was in like a movie and I couldn't like get confused, that would have

518
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,880
been blindingly obvious.

519
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,240
But again, it's literally one line.

520
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,660
Like nothing is spelled out.

521
00:29:56,660 --> 00:29:58,600
So it's easy to miss shit like that.

522
00:29:58,600 --> 00:29:59,600
Definitely.

523
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:05,000
And I will say actually, as a critique of this first book, I think the moments in the

524
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:11,200
original black company where what Glen Cook is intentionally obscuring and what is just

525
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,760
a bit jumbled in delivery, there is a little bit of both going on.

526
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:23,320
There's a scene later on that I want to draw attention to after the main characters, Croker

527
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,280
and Raven, they kill one of the enemy rebels, a guy called Hardin.

528
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:36,120
Now after he goes down, I believe a wizard called the Hanged Man takes a lethal wound.

529
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,320
And there's a bit of a standoff about if anyone's going to try and help save him.

530
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:41,960
I got a bit confused about this scene.

531
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,280
I was like, wait, who's on whose side?

532
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,040
Who's staring down who?

533
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,160
And I had that same experience.

534
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:55,520
And I think Duncan, what we're both identifying there is the doubt wasn't is what's happening

535
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:56,520
here.

536
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:57,520
Not really.

537
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,400
It was am I supposed to know what's happening here or is this deliberately opaque?

538
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:02,400
Yes.

539
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,080
And I still don't know.

540
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,880
I think it is deliberately opaque.

541
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:13,840
I think the whole point of that whole conspiracy is it creates this sense of mystery.

542
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,280
In the previous episode, I made a deliberate distinction when talking about the straight

543
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:24,200
razor's cure to say I called it a mystery and I stopped myself and I said it's a detective

544
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:30,720
story because there is a distinction because this book is definitely not a detective story,

545
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,680
but it is absolutely a mystery.

546
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,360
Mystery is all over the place.

547
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,000
The world is mysterious.

548
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,640
The lady and magic is mysterious.

549
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,400
The lives of the people surrounding Croker are mysterious.

550
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:50,060
There are only a couple of things and I think this is also very deliberate are laid out

551
00:31:50,060 --> 00:31:55,100
extremely obviously to sort of give us something to anchor onto.

552
00:31:55,100 --> 00:32:02,160
So Croker's actual dialogue is sardonic, but very easy to understand.

553
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,440
The language itself is incredibly simplistic for the most part and that allows us to stay

554
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:08,440
anchored.

555
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,680
It's not confusing us by being lofty and hard to reach.

556
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,760
It's grounded, it's gritty and that means we can hold onto it.

557
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:24,960
And there's other stuff which is just signposted like the identity of Darling for example.

558
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,280
Technically speaking, that's a mystery.

559
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,940
It's so obvious though that it's dramatic and it's dramatic irony.

560
00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:36,000
We know, the characters don't know, we're waiting for them to catch up.

561
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,080
Like a Columbo mystery.

562
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,520
So let's talk a bit more about some of these characters.

563
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,520
Croker, you said he had a very distinctive voice.

564
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,080
The character himself is sardonic when he's engaging with other characters, but also the

565
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,000
entire book is presented as his writings.

566
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,000
That's right.

567
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,240
So this is literally a document that he's written down.

568
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,680
Something I do just want to throw out there because it is and I think it's really a testament

569
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,560
to Glen Cook and I want people to, I just want to praise it while I have the platform.

570
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,600
Beyond the series, we do swap to other characters and-

571
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:10,600
Makes sense.

572
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,600
Oh my god, Geordie.

573
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:20,460
The way Glen Cook changes his entire writing style so that you know that a descriptive

574
00:33:20,460 --> 00:33:28,480
paragraph whether or not it was Croker or one of the other future analysts is incredible.

575
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:29,480
I had heard this.

576
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:34,420
I didn't want to speak to it with authority because I haven't read that, but I have heard

577
00:33:34,420 --> 00:33:37,800
about this reputation of the change in narration.

578
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:44,360
I can't remember whether it's they say it gets more clear or it's saying like the language

579
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:49,680
and choice gets even more opaque and strange when other characters take over.

580
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,400
There is a later book which I would genuinely want to say.

581
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,720
It's book- oh I can't remember the name of it now.

582
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,200
Is it Bleak Seasons?

583
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:06,400
I'm going to say it's Bleak Seasons which is so convoluted, so unclear.

584
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,600
The main character in that book essentially is- the main plot of that book is the character

585
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,200
retelling his experience within a siege city.

586
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:21,120
However, at the start of the book he goes through a particular traumatic event and the

587
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:27,920
book's written as he's trying to piece together what happened and his own confused, conflicting,

588
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:33,760
unreliable memories and the fact that the character slips from recounting something

589
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:40,720
he thinks he's remembering to thinking he's re-experiencing it through a traumatic flashback

590
00:34:40,720 --> 00:34:49,920
and it gets- it's one of the things I'd have to say was brave of Glen Cook and interesting,

591
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,720
but I would ultimately come away and go yeah mate you're a bit off to more than two.

592
00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:58,200
You're good, but what you just tried to pull off there was absolutely insane.

593
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,200
So compelling.

594
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:02,200
That's interesting.

595
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:09,840
That sort of reminds me a bit of the culture books because the first book is quite challenging

596
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,320
just in its pure writing style, similar to The Black Company.

597
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,160
Throws you into the sci-fi world.

598
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,760
Probably explains a lot more than this but the actual where the story is going is way

599
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,040
more like what the fuck is happening.

600
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,760
Then you read The Player of Games, it's a much more straightforward, traditional narrative

601
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,360
and you're like okay I finally get what's going on and then you get to the next book

602
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,360
and I'm start listening to the audiobook and it's like okay every even-numbered chapter

603
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:44,480
is going to be in chronological order but every odd-numbered chapter is going to be

604
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,520
told backwards in time from the end of the story and I went you know what I don't have

605
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:54,080
time for this I can't give you enough focus and I have not gotten past chapter two of

606
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,080
that book.

607
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,000
I don't even know if it's good, I don't know if it's bad, I'm just like I'm not ready for

608
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,320
this right now and maybe I never will be.

609
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,680
I think that's very fair enough but like I said that's quite a way, the issue of that

610
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,160
particular book for like Lane Cook is quite a way into the series.

611
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,240
Something else that also comes up later which I will just throw out now as well because

612
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,720
it might impact slightly your experience with The Black Company, it's certainly impacted

613
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:16,720
mine.

614
00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:21,080
When I was first reading Black Company I very much took Croker as his word.

615
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:27,040
What's very interesting is that later on some of the future analysts make comments about

616
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,240
I've gotten back through Croker's account.

617
00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:33,960
He was very kind to himself wasn't he?

618
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,480
Well I'll, well let's get into that in a moment.

619
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:44,000
I will say one thing first which is that in the, yeah the final chapter of the book, there

620
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,040
are not that many chapters in this book, there are like ten chapters.

621
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,440
It almost feels like short stories doesn't it?

622
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:52,440
Yes exactly.

623
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,600
Do you want to know why Geordie?

624
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,760
Oh were they published sequentially?

625
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:03,800
No not quite, one of the chapters, so the actual first ever Black Company story was

626
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:10,360
published two years before the novel and I believe it was chapter three, Raker, was the

627
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:16,280
first one with an amended beginning and end to make it slightly more standalone.

628
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,000
But yeah.

629
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,720
And that's the one where they kill the Leper?

630
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:22,720
Or?

631
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:23,720
Limper.

632
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:25,080
Sorry the Limper.

633
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:31,160
No he gets killed in Whisper, Raker is the one where they're holding out in the city

634
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:36,080
and they set up like a trap for him and we get the first moments of the character Soulcatcher

635
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,920
telling Croker about the ladies past.

636
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,080
Okay.

637
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,960
That's a weird place to do as a short story.

638
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:44,960
But okay, fair enough.

639
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,840
Sorry I got distracted, what was I saying?

640
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:53,240
I was going to say, yeah so the last part of the book was the first time I went, are

641
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:55,240
you making this up?

642
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:58,240
Are you lying?

643
00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:05,000
Because that's the bit where there's a friction between the fact that this is an in-world

644
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:11,400
document and the fact that he wants to be secretive, you know he's a historian writing

645
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,840
about things he doesn't want people to know.

646
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,760
And I'm like, what the fuck is happening?

647
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:22,320
You're really bad at keeping secrets Croker, you're literally writing this into a historical

648
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:23,320
document.

649
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:24,840
Don't tell people!

650
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:30,600
Ultimately though, it makes sense because the very clever part behind that story is

651
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:35,080
he interrupts this person as they're running away and says, you're running away right now,

652
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,160
I don't want people to catch you, so don't go to the place I know you're going to go

653
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,920
to, go somewhere else.

654
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,440
And the dude goes, okay great I'll go to you and he says, yeah, don't tell me!

655
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,580
I don't want to know.

656
00:38:46,580 --> 00:38:51,480
People can read my mind, don't tell me where you're going, just run.

657
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,120
And it's clever, it's good.

658
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,320
And just also to add on to that particular point as a potential plot hole, there is a

659
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:03,720
moment I believe in book three where we actually do get a bit of context of when in time Croker

660
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:06,480
is writing what you're currently reading.

661
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,560
Interesting, yeah, I had questions about that.

662
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,200
Yeah, because he's not doing it as he goes along.

663
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,040
There is a moment in the series where Glencut does put a little pin in and go, at this point

664
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,840
Croker wrote this section.

665
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:21,840
Interesting.

666
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:28,480
Okay, well, maybe he might be still writing a diary because there's a lot of very specific

667
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,800
dialogue and like who won what hand the game?

668
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,680
At this point he edits things.

669
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,640
Sure, that makes sense.

670
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:43,240
I will say something like, this is just something you have to sort of forgive, like how good

671
00:39:43,240 --> 00:39:45,000
characters' memories are.

672
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:50,080
You know, if you're reading like a Saxon story and the meta-narrative behind that is that

673
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:57,600
Uhtred is telling the exploit of his life to like a bard or historian or another Bernard

674
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:04,320
Cornwall character like Dervil Cadarn is writing an actual history again and he's giving exact

675
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,200
lines of dialogue and what was the look on Arthur's face when he had to consider this

676
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,920
before the great battle?

677
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:11,960
And you're like, we just have to accept that.

678
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:17,160
You have to either accept it or accept the fact that the characters are as much authors

679
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,600
as the actual authors are.

680
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,880
But that's no fun to think about that.

681
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,920
Geordie, you touched upon the structure of the book and the fact that we have some very large

682
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:28,920
chapters.

683
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,720
In fact, I believe there are only seven in the whole book.

684
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:34,720
That makes sense.

685
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:37,560
So the book, again, I listened to this in audiobook.

686
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,320
It was a pretty good audiobook.

687
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:45,800
It's about 10 hours long and one quarter of the entire book is just the penultimate chapter.

688
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,080
Now when I actually first read this, I wasn't a fan of this.

689
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,520
And I'll tell you now, this is actually the only Black Company book where this is done.

690
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,040
So if we get into the into the sequels, we go to a bit more of a traditional chapter

691
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:04,600
format being only about 15 to 30 pages instead of these 60 plus page long chapters.

692
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:05,720
I'm agnostic towards that.

693
00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:10,640
I don't really have an opinion one way or another about whether that's good.

694
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,400
Actually no, that probably is good because I will say, you know, I said before I finished

695
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:21,560
this an hour before doing the episode and even though this is not a very long book,

696
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:26,040
something about the writing style, maybe it's the long chapters, maybe it's the fact that

697
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,160
it's all quite opaque and mysterious.

698
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,260
It's quite an exhausting book to get through.

699
00:41:31,260 --> 00:41:35,800
You know, when I finished chapter two, I was like, whoa, we got to be at a halfway point,

700
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:36,800
right?

701
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,840
Oh my God, we are like 20% of the way there.

702
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,760
I definitely felt something very similar, particularly I think it was the I'm going to say it was

703
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,480
chapter five or six.

704
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:47,480
Yeah.

705
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,280
Each chapter is by and large named after a character and most of them are named after

706
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:53,280
rebel leaders.

707
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,240
So it's in this chapter, we're going after this guy or girl in some cases.

708
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:05,040
I believe it's the hardened one that I did remember reading and thinking, oh my goodness,

709
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,920
are we still on this guy?

710
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,040
He's not a character.

711
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,240
A lot happens in that chapter though.

712
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,080
Oh, not certainly does.

713
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,040
So Doddy, let's get into some more of the specifics because we tiptoed around a few

714
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:19,040
points.

715
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:20,680
You know, we talked about Croker.

716
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,480
Let's talk about some of the actual members of this company.

717
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,640
What do you think about our wizards?

718
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:32,640
Are lesser wizards compared to the big, the big old powerful sorcerers, the Taken?

719
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,840
We've got Goblin, we've got One Eye, we've got Silent.

720
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,960
At the very beginning of all we have Tom Tom.

721
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:39,960
Compa not forgotten.

722
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:40,960
Poor Tom Tom.

723
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:47,360
Yeah, this is a, I was really surprised by how many fucking wizards are in this company.

724
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,920
Granted, we're talking about five guys out of a company of a thousand people.

725
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,800
So maybe it's just that, hey, these guys can do magic.

726
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,160
Okay, promote them.

727
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,320
They're the brass now.

728
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,480
I guess that does make sense.

729
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:08,240
But I'm really surprised by how frequently magic appears in this story.

730
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:14,040
And something that we have discussed in previous episodes is that this is very much high fantasy.

731
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,080
Like way higher fantasy than something like The Lord of the Rings.

732
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,520
This is like, what was it called?

733
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,080
Mysteries of Druun stories.

734
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,500
There are flying carpets.

735
00:43:24,500 --> 00:43:31,080
People are turning into birds and sending out magical snakes with their faces on them.

736
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:36,580
There's a tower that's like, that's a perfect cube and then later becomes a pyramid.

737
00:43:36,580 --> 00:43:37,580
That was weird.

738
00:43:37,580 --> 00:43:40,600
It's quite shocking how, you know, it's high fantasy.

739
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,120
It's also very soft fantasy.

740
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,000
The magic system is not rigidly defined.

741
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,600
I think what this series does quite well.

742
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,000
Firstly, talking about the number of wizards in the Black Company, I do get the impression

743
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,180
this is meant to imply why the Black Company is almost so prestigious.

744
00:43:54,180 --> 00:43:56,440
It's like Croker is sort of a point of pride.

745
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,440
You know, we have our wizards.

746
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:01,440
But you're also very right.

747
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,280
I think what's really kind of frightening in this particular world is that magic is

748
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,980
both horrifically powerful and just not quite uncommon enough.

749
00:44:09,980 --> 00:44:13,360
And those who can use it, none of them are recluse.

750
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:18,240
None of them are, I'm going to be the wise wizard studying my books in my distant tower.

751
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:22,640
They're all like, okay, I'm taking over the kingdom.

752
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:23,640
That's my day.

753
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:24,640
Yeah.

754
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:31,040
A bunch of the rebel leaders, it sort of like dropped ever so slightly like, yeah, these

755
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:32,160
guys are wizards.

756
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,480
That's why they're important rebel leaders.

757
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,120
And there's a bit later, there's like a whole flock of them surrounding this woman protecting

758
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:41,120
her.

759
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:46,080
And the way in which this is sort of casually thrown out, it sort of goes to show that this

760
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,080
is par for the course.

761
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:55,040
And he doesn't, Croker doesn't see anything especially special or noteworthy about this,

762
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,640
such that he needs to single these characters out.

763
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,160
What I find really interesting about this wizard though is that there does seem to be

764
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,520
quite a power scale going on.

765
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,840
And I was, I never quite got the impression of where people sat.

766
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,520
Like how common is magic?

767
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,120
Like, and do you have to be special to use it?

768
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:15,120
What was your impression?

769
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:20,600
Well, Duncan, that's the tricky part is that you've repeatedly referred to the Taken as

770
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:21,600
sorcerers.

771
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,400
And I think that is true.

772
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:30,760
I think they are, they're all magical people who can cast spells.

773
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,560
But I don't think they really classify as the same thing as everyone else because they're

774
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:40,760
a lot more like ringwraiths, you know, they have been twisted and corrupted and warped

775
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,040
by the ladies evil magics.

776
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,840
I think there's two things I just want to bring up there.

777
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:51,720
They do kind of make it clear that all of these people did start out as just powerful

778
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:54,660
independent sorcerers.

779
00:45:54,660 --> 00:45:55,660
But you're right.

780
00:45:55,660 --> 00:46:02,120
They're now being warped, corrupted, easistically turned into semi immortal beings.

781
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,640
And you mentioned the ladies magic.

782
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,160
It's not actually the lady who did it.

783
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:10,040
It was her evil husband, the Dominator, whose name I think is slightly hilarious.

784
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:11,280
Yes, you're right.

785
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,360
Well, but she can.

786
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,080
It is very hilarious.

787
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,400
That's the most 80s thing about this story is how on the nose it can be about about that.

788
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,640
Like there's no period in time where you could be like, yeah, the main bad guy, the entire

789
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,840
series, the Dominator and the lady.

790
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,840
But she can make Taken.

791
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,760
Yes, she can.

792
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,160
She has unlocked the dark arts of it.

793
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,960
Because see, now I feel like there's so many branching pathways.

794
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,880
I need to like grab hold and ask you about now we're talking about all the Taken.

795
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:48,280
So Geordie, what did you think about the Taken as an order of evil wizards?

796
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:49,280
They're quite unique in a way.

797
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:50,600
Obviously, they all got their nicknames.

798
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,520
They're all somewhat twisted.

799
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,480
What I really enjoyed about them, though, is that although they are like you said, like

800
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:03,240
the ringwraiths, what's really I think enjoyable is that they're all given at least a hint

801
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:08,640
of their own personality, even if it's just in the magic they do, their cool sounding

802
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:09,640
designs.

803
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,080
But also it's shown very clearly that they all kind of have their own agendas as well.

804
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,640
This is they're not all just automatons.

805
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,920
Like they might have been taken, but they're still absolutely they're rebellious.

806
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:19,920
They could.

807
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:25,000
Yeah, I think they've had the Taken of kind of what makes this story work.

808
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,640
I think that if you didn't have the Taken and they were just working for the lady and

809
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:33,440
fighting against the rebels, I think this would genuinely just not work as a story.

810
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:41,440
The fact that you do have these twisted, almost human characters with petty conflicts like

811
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,880
the limper and soulcatcher don't like each other.

812
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,520
And that's all it really has to come to at first, that they fact they they hate each

813
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,200
other and they want to get in each other's way.

814
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:59,920
And then this develops into this behind the scenes conspiracy, which you are denied knowledge

815
00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:04,040
of because Croker knows what's going on.

816
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,020
And he's deliberately saying, but I can't write it down.

817
00:48:08,020 --> 00:48:09,400
And that freaks me out.

818
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,480
I can't tell anyone, not even you, dear reader.

819
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:21,320
And so that really amps up the peril and the idea of how dangerous this knowledge is.

820
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,840
And the question of why they don't just fucking kill this guy.

821
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,240
Why they're taking don't kill Croker.

822
00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:30,120
That is an amazing question.

823
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:31,680
I don't really have an answer.

824
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,720
Currently from where I'm standing, it's just very convenient for the pot.

825
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:37,540
They're like, this guy, he's cool.

826
00:48:37,540 --> 00:48:38,540
Let's not do it.

827
00:48:38,540 --> 00:48:40,920
We're super evil and we don't care.

828
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:45,800
I literally eat the souls of everyone I kill and I make them a part of my personality.

829
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,480
But I don't want to kill Croker.

830
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,200
He's a cool dude.

831
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,400
Again, very light on spoilers.

832
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:58,920
There is a similar incident in a later book where Croker is effectively taken captured

833
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:03,120
by an evil sorcerer or some description.

834
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,240
And he, Croker at a later point, literally asked, why didn't you kill me?

835
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:11,040
And they literally just said, I, they basically were like, well, I just kind of took a shine

836
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:12,040
to you.

837
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,560
I enjoyed your company.

838
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:17,560
Croker's just very charming apparently.

839
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,560
I had a very similar experience.

840
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:21,560
There we go.

841
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:22,680
I had a very similar experience recently.

842
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,640
I finished Grim Lagann for the first time, which is a great anime.

843
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:28,600
I enjoyed it a lot.

844
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:33,840
And it's a bit of the end where they have, they've been facing this overwhelmingly powerful

845
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:41,880
foe, and they asked a question of, why didn't you just use this overwhelming power to stop

846
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:42,880
us?

847
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:51,240
Why did you just like slowly confront us bit by bit with more and more, like more and more

848
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:53,200
minor threats until we were overwhelmed?

849
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,000
Why can you just like stop us right at once?

850
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:02,680
And the explanation given is really bad because it's like, oh, we sensed there was like something

851
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,840
weird about you guys.

852
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:06,560
And we only just figured out what it is.

853
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:12,120
So now we are, now we can be like confidently say we have nothing left to learn and we will

854
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:16,640
destroy you now, but we just didn't want to at this point, but now you're about to die.

855
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:17,640
Goodbye.

856
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:22,240
And it's like, that feels very artificial, especially when there is like an actual thematic

857
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:24,440
reason that is why they do this.

858
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:25,440
Yeah.

859
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,640
It's one of the things that's just like, don't worry about it.

860
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:28,640
Don't think about it.

861
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:29,640
Don't think about it.

862
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:30,640
Stop thinking about it.

863
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,640
Don't think about it.

864
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:43,120
I mean, he spent a lot of money making that laser to scare people.

865
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:44,480
Like he's got to use it.

866
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,880
You know, all those henchmen were there and they're like, boss, are you going to use the

867
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:48,880
big laser?

868
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:54,560
And he's like, oh God, it really makes up the electricity bill, but I have to justify

869
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,320
it to the finance department.

870
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:57,480
I expensed it.

871
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:58,480
Okay, fine.

872
00:50:58,480 --> 00:50:59,880
We'll do the laser.

873
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:04,960
I want there to be more bureaucracy behind villains.

874
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,720
Talking about Croker being charming.

875
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:11,720
Can we please talk about Croker and the lady?

876
00:51:11,720 --> 00:51:15,800
What I quite like about the lady, by the way, that she's referred to as the lady, even though

877
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,440
she's head of an empire, I would always imagine you call her like the empress, but it's just

878
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:20,440
the lady.

879
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:21,440
Geordie.

880
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:22,440
Yeah.

881
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,640
I mean, it could be a sort of deliberate linguistic choice to be like, we're going to use the

882
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:31,320
word lady to imply like it's, you know, like if we said she was an empress, perhaps that

883
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:35,400
would paint us too many images of something like Rome, for example.

884
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:36,400
I'm not sure.

885
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,920
I mean, we have, it's all very vague.

886
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,920
It's not like we know like what system of government she runs.

887
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:48,560
It's not like we have like scenes being like, oh, the rebellion has started because this,

888
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:49,720
this and this.

889
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:53,440
It's very vague to be like, Hey, these guys are the circle of the Rose.

890
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,520
They believe a messianic figure is coming and they are rising up against her.

891
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,880
And that's all we need to know.

892
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:03,840
But what do you consider Croker and the ladies relationship?

893
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,840
Cause it's very interesting.

894
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:06,840
It starts out.

895
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,600
Obviously there's no relationship.

896
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:09,600
It is.

897
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:15,600
But with Croker effectively writing fan fiction about his distant employer.

898
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,320
It's really, that is really interesting part.

899
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:24,280
So the lady is understandably this enigmatic and extremely powerful figure.

900
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:31,840
So Croker is fascinated by her and, and he sort of paints this picture of the fact that

901
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:38,440
Croker is this sort of almost a hopeless romantic in ways which we have to unpack in a, in a

902
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:42,720
different section because of his opinions about the black company and the way he frames

903
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:49,840
them and the way in which he is like aware, but unable to control his biases.

904
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,600
His opinion of the lady shifts through the story where he is infatuated by her.

905
00:52:54,600 --> 00:53:00,040
He writes these stories about an imagined past where he's like, you know, he says like,

906
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:05,360
Oh, she was once as good and pure young soul who has been corrupted by the evil magics

907
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:10,920
of the dominator only for soul catcher to say, say actually she murdered her twin sister

908
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:15,680
and stay with teenagers and you go, Oh shit, don't ruin it, please.

909
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,640
I love that interaction.

910
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:22,480
I love that interaction all the more when you find out soul catchers true identity as

911
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,820
well.

912
00:53:24,820 --> 00:53:28,960
I know God, that was a, that was a humdinger of a twist.

913
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:34,420
I accidentally had part of the identity of soul catcher spoiled for me when I was doing

914
00:53:34,420 --> 00:53:36,520
a cursory Google search.

915
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:41,200
Um, but that twist at the very end is like, Whoa, really?

916
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:42,200
What the, what?

917
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:43,800
Oh my God.

918
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,680
I mean, when the spoiler territory, I think we can just discuss it.

919
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:52,880
Geordie, I mean, to be fair, Duncan, the book is so mysterious and strange that I kind of

920
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,880
feel like we could have a very thorough and clear discussion about the book.

921
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,360
We're not really getting into spoilers.

922
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,400
I think we can kind of do that case.

923
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,720
I just want to throw one thing out that I really like about soul catchers identity is

924
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:09,920
that one, I mean, reread it, knowing it, everything makes perfect sense and it's in there the

925
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:16,040
whole time, particularly when Koko talks about what he believes to be so cacti's true voice.

926
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:21,520
So cacti uses different voices, um, believes to be channeling the souls of those they have

927
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:22,520
catched.

928
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:32,960
But also I really enjoy this a bit where let's just say, um, cook uses pronouns to play with

929
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:38,240
the identity and what's fun is that Kroka at points has to stop and go, wait, sorry,

930
00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:39,480
I've used the wrong one.

931
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,520
I've corrected myself.

932
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:44,920
That's very 2020 Kroka.

933
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:45,920
Good job.

934
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:46,920
Sorry.

935
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:47,920
Back to where we were.

936
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:49,120
Yes.

937
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,480
And he, when that scene happens, Kroka gets a little bit, you know, he's a little bit

938
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:58,560
knocked off, but I think, you know, he still has this bit of a, yeah, but she might be

939
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,400
nice.

940
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,000
And then he finally gets to see the lady and meet her.

941
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:05,000
Yeah.

942
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:11,520
The, the lady sort of enters into this story like a, like a tornado, not sudden you see

943
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:19,280
her coming, but the closer she comes to more looming and dark and, and mysterious she becomes

944
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:24,100
at a very distance, you paint a picture of her yourself, much like Kroka, you have this

945
00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:31,400
idea of who she is, but her approach is so lofty and strange.

946
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:36,360
Like when she first appears, the first time she like properly appears in the story is

947
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:42,720
because Goblin is whisked away by this vision, which almost drives him insane.

948
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:48,080
And when Kroka is desperate to ask about it, because he's fascinated by the lady, Goblin

949
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,980
has to say, my memories have been taken away.

950
00:55:50,980 --> 00:55:53,360
You know, she has defenses against that.

951
00:55:53,360 --> 00:56:01,320
And indeed when Kroka finally does meet her, the first time he cannot see her, he cannot

952
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:02,800
hear her voice.

953
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:09,400
He's just aware of her presence and how much of the encounter is stripped away from his

954
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:13,520
memory, perhaps to sort of shield his psyche.

955
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:19,840
Now, Geordie, can I ask you a question about, you know, the lady is mysterious and enigmatic

956
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,560
and ethereal and distant.

957
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,520
Geordie, what color is her hair?

958
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:32,120
Because it turns out I read 10 blooming books and had this wrong the entire time.

959
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:38,800
Well she has black hair, but on the Collectors Edition, there's a woman with very beautiful

960
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,040
woman with blonde hair on the cover.

961
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,880
So when I started this book, I was pretty convinced that was going to be her and she

962
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:44,880
was going to have blonde hair.

963
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:45,880
Yeah, absolutely.

964
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:51,920
The problem with that artist is you didn't do a terrible job, but oh my gosh, I read

965
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:56,040
the entire series thinking she was blonde and then went, oh, that is meant to be the

966
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:57,960
lady and the hair color is wrong.

967
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,280
She is like that.

968
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:06,040
Yeah, I mean, I had that experience of reading the Aragon books, because of course the like

969
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:11,320
shitty movie came out, they hired a blonde actor who looks a lot like Alex Petitre but

970
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:12,480
isn't.

971
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:17,080
And then for the books, you're constantly reminded or occasionally reminded that Aragon

972
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,280
is a brunette and you're like, oh yeah, right.

973
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:24,560
I have to reaffirm, I have to completely change my image and like, that's right, Christopher

974
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,440
Polini, self-insert, remember that Geordie.

975
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:32,440
My classic one is reading Bernard Cornwell's Sharps and not just picturing Sean Bean.

976
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:33,440
Sure.

977
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,400
I'm sorry, he's just, it's just too much.

978
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,120
He's just that boy he looks like.

979
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:40,120
But yes, so.

980
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,720
I remember, yeah, go ahead.

981
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:46,360
No, no, I was going to get back on track if you want to go off on a tangent.

982
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,960
No, no, please do get back on track because we have a lot to say yet.

983
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:55,880
The lady, the lady and Croker first gets introduced to the lady when they're hunting down the

984
00:57:55,880 --> 00:58:01,200
rebel the Whisperer and taking revenge on the taker known as the Limper.

985
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:07,160
And in this scene, Croker sees the true horror of some of the dark magic that the lady does

986
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,560
and he is disgusted by it and revolted by it and he's like, oh my gosh, how could I

987
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,200
ever think of her in any other way again?

988
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,360
But his mind is still fuddled by it.

989
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:21,320
She stares into his mind using the magic called the eye and sees every facet of his being

990
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:26,040
and it's a horrific event and Croker is very much like, nope, never again, I'm so sorry,

991
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,800
I can't believe I had all those fantasies.

992
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:35,800
And then the lady proceeds to take a bit of a shine to Croker and start inviting him round.

993
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:41,800
Yeah, he spends a lot more time than I expected, like just in her presence, like when they

994
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:50,400
finally arrive at the tower, which is this whole book has been about, in a way, he just

995
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:56,240
gets invited in and like they go off on like missions together and it's like, why are you

996
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,360
even bringing Croker along?

997
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:03,600
Like you can probably handle this by yourself, lady, you're a demigod.

998
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,760
And I'm a little bit conflicted on this.

999
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:13,360
On the one hand, I think the in-text reason is that the lady is like, I think she says

1000
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:18,920
at some point, oh, my own history keepers would just want to flatter me, I want someone

1001
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:24,480
to keep the true spirit of what happened alive or something to that effect or if the rebels

1002
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:25,480
win.

1003
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,000
She picked the wrong bloke then, didn't she?

1004
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:28,880
His cat is a terrible historian.

1005
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:30,760
Oh, completely true.

1006
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:34,600
And then at later parts, she talks about, you know, she'll always keep the loyal ones

1007
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:35,600
safe.

1008
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:40,040
So is the idea meant to be when she stared into like Croker's soul, she went, oh, he

1009
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:44,080
actually he's infatuated, he'll actually just do what I say.

1010
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,720
I'm not sure.

1011
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,000
I'm very confused.

1012
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,100
In terms of you mentioned, what's her hair colour?

1013
00:59:52,100 --> 00:59:59,640
And there is something quite interesting about the way this book talks about her beauty.

1014
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:05,160
And it's interesting in how it contrasts, say, with the descriptions of Yenetha in the

1015
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:16,920
Witcher books, because Sapkowski is sort of famous for being one of those fantasy writers

1016
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:22,680
who talks about women boobily boobily their way down the stairs, a lot of emphasis on

1017
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:26,200
the physical traits that he finds alluring.

1018
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:30,320
It's been described as male gaze, even though that's not what the word male gaze means.

1019
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,400
That's a, anyway, whatever.

1020
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:39,900
Nonetheless, despite the fact that he keeps talking about her attractive features, there's

1021
01:00:39,900 --> 01:00:48,080
this current of the idea that this being not genuine beauty means that it doesn't count.

1022
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:54,720
And that contrasts quite strikingly with the way Glenn Cook writes about beauty, because

1023
01:00:54,720 --> 01:01:00,000
it's also framed through this magical haze.

1024
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:07,680
That the idea that Croker is seduced long before he meets her by the potency of her

1025
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:14,040
magic, the ability to seduce by this magical charisma.

1026
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:23,560
There's a bit later where they say that the ladies lose control of the female taken, presumably

1027
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:31,680
because the male taken are under the same semi-erotic charms as Croker.

1028
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,000
But there's no...

1029
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:42,360
The way in which it talks about physical attraction is so different from leering at different

1030
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:43,920
body parts.

1031
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:51,200
It's so much more delicate and powerfully, helplessly romantic.

1032
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:54,000
It contrasts in a really striking way.

1033
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,760
And I really like this, and I think it actually doesn't just apply to the lady.

1034
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:59,720
I think it's generally in Cook's writing.

1035
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,520
He doesn't spend too much time...

1036
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:05,880
I don't know what the word is.

1037
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:07,320
Oogling?

1038
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:08,880
Ogling?

1039
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:13,720
The female form.

1040
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:19,920
He describes people that some people are beautiful, but it never seems to be overly descriptive.

1041
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,520
It's more of a...

1042
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:25,000
A little bit, in some respect, going to more Robbie Hale way, it is a fact.

1043
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:26,600
And we talk about the magic as well.

1044
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,440
You're right, in The Witcher, it's all this...

1045
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:30,440
Oh, it's just...

1046
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:34,680
It's all emphasis upon the fact that it's like a mask that they're wearing.

1047
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,240
In a weird way, I think this is written more about...

1048
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:42,240
At least it put me in the same mind of just writing about how someone is...

1049
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:47,880
Someone's maybe someone's fame or reputation factors into their beauty or their desirability

1050
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:54,080
in another way, just by being famous or being powerful, they're more desirable.

1051
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,000
Yeah, absolutely.

1052
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:03,120
In the same way that true love makes you see someone being as more perfect than they are.

1053
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:10,400
There was a fantastic short story I read very recently, actually.

1054
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,080
It was beautiful.

1055
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:13,520
It was someone...

1056
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:15,440
And this person just wrote it on Tumblr.

1057
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:22,120
So this person wrote this story about how in this world, before you get married, you

1058
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:32,560
can go into like a room where you meet your partner's vision of you, and the woman who's

1059
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:38,880
just come out of this room tells her partner, we can't be together because I can't measure

1060
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,600
up to the woman I met in that room.

1061
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:43,040
That's father.

1062
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:46,120
And that story is called this.

1063
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,720
I mean, it doesn't have an actual title.

1064
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:49,800
It's a Tumblr post.

1065
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:53,160
You just sort of scroll across it on your feed and that's it.

1066
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:55,840
So yeah, it doesn't have a name.

1067
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:56,840
Bye!

1068
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,280
Okay, so I can at least give you a name.

1069
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:05,120
It was written by Alexander Wales, and if you search for the names Cordelia and Aldwyn,

1070
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:06,640
you should be able to find it.

1071
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:09,860
Well good for you, and I cannot wait to give that a read.

1072
01:04:09,860 --> 01:04:10,860
You definitely should.

1073
01:04:10,860 --> 01:04:12,360
It's like a page log.

1074
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:13,360
Anyway, um.

1075
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:17,760
Actually, Geordie, can I ask you another question about the Croc and the Lady?

1076
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,600
Just for someone who's read the whole series, where do you think this relationship goes?

1077
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:27,360
God, I mean, Duncan, the fact of the matter is that I'm realizing that my impression of

1078
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:32,680
the story is extremely different to what it is, because in this book, the very end is

1079
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:39,280
like, I'm thinking like, okay, the next book is going to jump forward 37 years, they're

1080
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:43,440
going to be completely different characters, and it's just about what happens next, and

1081
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:47,920
then the next book after that is going to be like 50 years after that.

1082
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:49,460
But apparently that's not it.

1083
01:04:49,460 --> 01:04:51,520
So I have no idea.

1084
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:56,880
I mean, I guess this is about, alright, actually I said we're going to keep our sort of spoiler

1085
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:57,880
policy on.

1086
01:04:57,880 --> 01:04:59,880
I think I know what next story is about.

1087
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:05,320
I have no idea how Croker and the Lady's relationship would change, because at this point in the

1088
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:12,880
story, he truly, I think, does understand, like, how awful and like, purely evil she

1089
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:18,360
is and is in his way terrified and disgusted by her.

1090
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,320
Not that I think some of that attraction is just going to go away.

1091
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,040
That is very interesting to hear.

1092
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:28,480
And you know what, Geordie, despite how much I really want to take this moment to spoil

1093
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:34,240
things for you and hear your reaction, unlike something like The Straight Way is This Cure,

1094
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:38,160
where I know you're just not going to read it anyway, so why not?

1095
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:42,400
I won't take this away from you, because I think you may end up reading more about company.

1096
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:43,400
I probably will, Doug.

1097
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:47,200
So I'm going to leave this to you.

1098
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:48,200
Now.

1099
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:49,980
It's well worth it.

1100
01:05:49,980 --> 01:05:55,800
Something that we brought up before, we talked about the way he writes about the Lady, we

1101
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,920
talked about the way he talks about himself.

1102
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:06,200
I think we need to talk now about the way Croker and Glenn Cook, to an extent, writes

1103
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:16,800
about the Black Company and the evil things they do and how this book is remotely palatable.

1104
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:24,400
So before we get into this, Geordie, how familiar are you with the life story of Glenn Cook?

1105
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:29,840
Literally nothing, all I knew is that he is now an old man, but still writing books.

1106
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:35,040
OK, so just before we get into this, I'm just going to drop a detail on you about his

1107
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:38,680
life and maybe some inspiration that came into this.

1108
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:42,120
Glenn Cook was a Navy SEAL.

1109
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:47,000
And he, I believe he didn't fight through the entirety of, but he was there during the

1110
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:49,880
opening months of Vietnam.

1111
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,440
OK, that makes sense.

1112
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:59,760
OK, so for absolute clarity, we should say that looking into it, Glenn Cook did serve

1113
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:05,600
in the US Navy during the very early stages of the Vietnam War, and he was attached to

1114
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:09,040
a Marine Force Recon Division.

1115
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,160
However, he never actually saw active duty.

1116
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:16,960
So he has a lot of experience of being in a conradily situation, but he only ever did

1117
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,360
practice combat with Marines.

1118
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:23,400
Just to give you maybe a bit of a worldly context where he was coming from when he chose

1119
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:29,400
to write a story about how you can have soldiers on the front line that don't fully sum up

1120
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:33,280
the ideals of the nation they represent.

1121
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:42,320
And the way in which he writes about his own relationship to the soldiers who do bad things.

1122
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:45,960
There's this really fascinating part of, oh fuck, what's it called?

1123
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:48,120
It's a very famous Vietnam movie.

1124
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:49,520
Platoon?

1125
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:51,080
Platoon, of course, yes.

1126
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:59,920
There's a very interesting part of Platoon where these soldiers attack a village, they

1127
01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:07,120
brutalize its occupants, they either attempt to or successfully rape someone, and then

1128
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:11,880
afterwards, there's all these scenes about the soldiers feeling sad about it.

1129
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:16,120
And there's this famous line where he goes like, I don't know, brothers, but I'm real

1130
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:21,680
hurting inside, and I sat there watching this in part of my American Saves Me movie, and

1131
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,720
I'm like, well fuck you, I don't give a shit that you feel bad about it, you shouldn't

1132
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:29,280
have done that, you want me to feel bad for you?

1133
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:30,280
Fuck off!

1134
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:34,120
I think that's an appropriate reaction.

1135
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:41,440
So the way in which, because Croker is carrying the same water as whoever was who made Platoon,

1136
01:08:41,440 --> 01:08:48,440
I forget, but he's carrying the same water, he's seeing his colleagues, well, I don't

1137
01:08:48,440 --> 01:08:54,600
know what Glenn Cook did in Vietnam, but he's writing about seeing his colleagues do evil

1138
01:08:54,600 --> 01:09:01,560
deeds, knowing that they're evil, but he's completely unable to hate them.

1139
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:07,640
Because at the end of the day, they are your squad mates, these are the people that you

1140
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:12,160
depend on to stay alive and you serve side by side.

1141
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:14,920
You know them intimately well.

1142
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:20,720
And it's sort of a, if you turn against them, you might as well just walk away.

1143
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:28,040
Yeah, and this is really striking and deliberate in the way it talks about rape and sexual

1144
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:35,000
violence, because the first time that this happens in the book, okay, we've already made

1145
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,740
a trigger warning, but we're reiterating it now.

1146
01:09:37,740 --> 01:09:44,760
So the character of Darling is introduced to the story, gang raped by enemy soldiers.

1147
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,440
She is nine years old.

1148
01:09:47,440 --> 01:09:51,600
Yes, that is the opening.

1149
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:58,160
We see her being assaulted, her grandfather is basically being made to watch, and into

1150
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:04,000
this scene, if I'm not mistaken, our main character are almost hesitant, oh, by the

1151
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,200
way, we say enemy soldiers.

1152
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:09,800
These aren't actually enemy soldiers, if I'm not mistaken, these are simply soldiers from

1153
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,600
another unit of the ladies empire.

1154
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:13,600
These are limpa soldiers.

1155
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:15,600
Okay, there we go.

1156
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:22,800
And which makes Raven because so the enemy soldiers are the good guys.

1157
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:27,700
Yeah, to a greater letter extent.

1158
01:10:27,700 --> 01:10:33,600
So in this scene, you know, Croker comes onto this and it's just like, yeah, it's disgusting,

1159
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:35,720
it's bad, but I'm not picking a fight with them now.

1160
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:38,080
You know, we're all part of the same army.

1161
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:43,160
And it's actually the new recruit Raven, who just walked in and casually murders them all.

1162
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:44,160
Yeah.

1163
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:50,000
And so like you what you have here is Croker is weary of this and therefore like doesn't

1164
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,560
want to get involved.

1165
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:55,000
But he but important thing is that he criticized them for this.

1166
01:10:55,000 --> 01:11:00,280
He says like, it's disgusting things that war makes these these awful men do, you know,

1167
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:06,260
like, and he shows no regret for like killing them and like, and doing this, even though

1168
01:11:06,260 --> 01:11:09,520
he like doesn't want to intervene himself.

1169
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:15,840
And then later, almost casually, the black company wins this battle.

1170
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:20,840
And then it briefly mentions like, and there was an astounding amount of rape going on

1171
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:24,640
outside.

1172
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:29,440
I'm really sorry, I don't actually know quite how to follow that up on a point about the

1173
01:11:29,440 --> 01:11:38,880
it's it's really shows Croker not being able to not mention this, but at the same time,

1174
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:46,600
I think in terms of like in universe, he doesn't condemn his own company in the same way.

1175
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:47,600
It's interesting.

1176
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:50,600
Yes, because he you're right, he doesn't leverage for saying criticism against his

1177
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:52,360
brothers.

1178
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:56,200
But he writes explicitly, I know this is bad.

1179
01:11:56,200 --> 01:12:00,840
And reader, I think he literally speaks as directly says, you might have guessed that

1180
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:04,840
I am not mentioning all the awful stuff they're doing.

1181
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:06,280
But what can I do?

1182
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:08,480
They are my brothers.

1183
01:12:08,480 --> 01:12:15,760
And it's this, it's this poignant moment in the story, because it makes everything around

1184
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:22,680
the story darker, like for all the like, jeering camaraderie that surrounds these characters.

1185
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:29,080
And like, all of them don't on the character of darling, she stay all take care of her.

1186
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:33,040
They all care about her and want to keep her safe.

1187
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:37,480
But none of them would have lifted a finger to save her except for Raven.

1188
01:12:37,480 --> 01:12:40,640
It's this sort of this heartache kind of pinpoint.

1189
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:44,960
But it's like, you know, once you're in, you're in.

1190
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:50,240
But if you're out, you just aren't a person in the same way.

1191
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:55,440
Yeah, and almost completely arbitrarily, you know, like the members of the black company,

1192
01:12:55,440 --> 01:12:59,000
it's striking and important to me that they're not in their homelands.

1193
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,120
They're not in the south, they're in a completely new place.

1194
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:05,480
They don't have anyone to relate to accept each other.

1195
01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:09,760
Now part of what I think is the strength of the story is the idea that the black company

1196
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:12,960
is this singular unit.

1197
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:19,320
Like it doesn't compare to like an army, because an army can look back and say like, oh, we

1198
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:21,160
have we serve.

1199
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:25,920
We serve the Queen, we serve the sitting government.

1200
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:31,000
You have your previous generals and commanders, and that's it.

1201
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:37,560
You know, but to go to real history, when you read a band of brothers, the majority

1202
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:41,620
of the characters you knew from the start of the story are gone.

1203
01:13:41,620 --> 01:13:48,360
And you they've been replaced by these new fresh green characters at the end of the narrative

1204
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:50,840
where who have barely seen any action.

1205
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:54,520
The black company is exclusively made up of those characters.

1206
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:58,280
They are 400 years late to the party.

1207
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:03,000
The only thing that connects them and which makes Raven actually feel like a member of

1208
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:08,320
the company is the reading of the annals is the idea that they belong to something.

1209
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:12,680
I mean, and this is made very explicit later on.

1210
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:18,840
There's an amazing moment at the end of the books of the north where two characters are

1211
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:19,840
basically having this conversation.

1212
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:22,000
One basic just turns a ghost.

1213
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:27,400
So we're the last of the three companies of cuttive or cuttive are.

1214
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:28,400
Yeah.

1215
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:29,400
What's that?

1216
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:30,400
Where's that?

1217
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:31,920
And basically everyone turns around.

1218
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:33,920
It's like no idea.

1219
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:35,880
I don't know this.

1220
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:39,680
I remember learning of us from a Matt Colville video.

1221
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:46,280
He mentioned once that the black company annals go back so far that no one can read the first

1222
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:49,120
annals because they're in a dead language.

1223
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:50,680
Yes.

1224
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,280
This is something that's established and something that actually gets picked up in the books

1225
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:54,280
of the north.

1226
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:59,440
Croakers kind of hit upon because he's very good at picking up new languages.

1227
01:14:59,440 --> 01:15:03,080
So the problem is though, you're right.

1228
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:07,720
There's some of the old annuals are just written in dialect that everyone who knew how to read

1229
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:09,880
them has died.

1230
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:13,800
So they have no idea what they say.

1231
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:14,800
That's legitimately so cool.

1232
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:20,200
Like there's a lot of stuff in this story which just works because it's cool.

1233
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:24,520
For some reason them riding on magic carpets, it's not dumb.

1234
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:26,400
It's awesome actually.

1235
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:30,800
Like soulcatcher, cool.

1236
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:33,120
Even the thing that sets off the story, what's it called?

1237
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:38,680
The Kovalaka is like a version of a werewolf except it's a panther man and it's almost

1238
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:39,680
indestructible.

1239
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:44,920
I love in that scene that they start when they come across that panther creature is

1240
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:49,720
that I believe Croaker is like, well I've heard of werewolves but this seems a bit ridiculous

1241
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:52,840
and one of the other guys in the company I think it's Goblin is just like, what are you

1242
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:53,840
on about?

1243
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:54,840
These are so common where I'm from.

1244
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,160
I think there would probably be one eye who said that.

1245
01:15:57,160 --> 01:15:59,120
Yep, you're probably bang on right there.

1246
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:02,560
But I love the fact that they're all from these kind of different cultures and this

1247
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:04,920
isn't a very well connected world.

1248
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:07,320
It's what's very much established.

1249
01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:08,840
People do not travel far.

1250
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:11,600
It's very dangerous.

1251
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:16,880
So the Black Company seems to be one of the only actual organisations that seems to actually

1252
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:18,780
cross it.

1253
01:16:18,780 --> 01:16:22,920
Even in the Lady's Empire, something that we kind of get established later on, once

1254
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,240
you go south, so you've got the Sea of Torment I think it's called.

1255
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:27,240
Lovely name.

1256
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:28,240
Well done Glint.

1257
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:34,920
You've got the Southern Coast of it with the dual cities but what's really south of them?

1258
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:36,840
I don't even think the Lady knows.

1259
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:39,120
Yeah, there's a bit at the end here today.

1260
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:44,120
He says, I'll go to the dual city and he says, don't go there.

1261
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:48,960
The Lady may not have, they may not officially work for the Lady but she controls them, have

1262
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:50,000
no doubt.

1263
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:53,320
You need to go somewhere where they have never heard her name before.

1264
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:58,060
And there's this great sense of, yeah, this is pre-mass communication.

1265
01:16:58,060 --> 01:17:02,560
If you just go in that direction and you keep walking you will go to places where there

1266
01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:04,760
is no connection.

1267
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:10,040
It's established, big point in the, I'm going to go minus one for future books, there's

1268
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:19,800
a point made in a future book where they destroy, one of the Taken's carpets gets destroyed

1269
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:25,880
and they're literally like, well guess what, there's no teleportation spell.

1270
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:30,120
Without a flying carpet it's horseback and walking, no matter how powerful a sorcerer

1271
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:31,120
you are.

1272
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:33,800
What else do I have to say Duncan?

1273
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:34,800
What else do I have to say?

1274
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:37,280
Ah, I'll say one more thing.

1275
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:39,200
This is minor.

1276
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:41,200
Perhaps I've gotten this wrong.

1277
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:45,440
I believe there is a line at a certain point and if I'm correct about this then it's one

1278
01:17:45,440 --> 01:17:50,280
of the most interesting lines in the book because we've mentioned some of the characters

1279
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:56,560
so far, they are compelling, they're not necessarily nice but you have characters like Goblin and

1280
01:17:56,560 --> 01:18:05,200
One Eye and briefly TomTom, the Captain, a guy who comes out of nowhere, Elmo, and I

1281
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:10,000
don't know what his deal is and that's a bad name for a mercenary leader.

1282
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:15,760
I have to say, can I just say I confused, reading this book I completely forgot that

1283
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:19,560
Elmo and the Lieutenant are two different characters.

1284
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:25,880
That's right, that's right, I didn't realise that at first too, but the character that

1285
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:30,560
really interests me is Silent and I think there's something fascinating about the fact

1286
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:35,400
that this was written in 1984, a surprisingly good disability representation.

1287
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:39,200
Again, maybe it might have to do with the fact that Glenn Cook's a Marine, he probably

1288
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:43,880
knows a lot of guys who've been fucked up by war.

1289
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:48,320
Silent is a character when he's introduced but at a certain point I'm pretty sure Crocus

1290
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:53,640
says Silent is the only one in our company who I might actually describe or the only

1291
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:58,160
wizard in our company who I might actually describe as evil.

1292
01:18:58,160 --> 01:19:01,440
Now am I right in applying that to Silent or is that someone else?

1293
01:19:01,440 --> 01:19:08,240
I think I'm not sure is the answer to that question.

1294
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:12,640
Okay if I am right that's compelling because Silent is the only nice guy in the entire

1295
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:13,640
book.

1296
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:21,120
It's certainly not the character that I understand him to be and I wouldn't say it's something

1297
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:28,200
that's pulled up later but if it is the case you're absolutely right, that's amazing.

1298
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:30,600
I don't think so, I like Silent.

1299
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:35,200
I like the fact that when Crocus just talked to the fact that he wasn't always Silent but

1300
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:40,480
direct to the time he met him he'd taken his vow or gone meet like he no one actually knows

1301
01:19:40,480 --> 01:19:42,600
if it's a choice or not.

1302
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:48,440
Yeah he's so mysterious but what happens is that as the book goes on like Darling who

1303
01:19:48,440 --> 01:19:56,120
is Death she communicates via sign language and she's able to communicate with Silent

1304
01:19:56,120 --> 01:20:02,200
and up until this point all communication with Silent is done by you tell him what to

1305
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:08,440
do and he does it or you communicate via a series of hand gestures and facial expressions

1306
01:20:08,440 --> 01:20:13,840
which takes a while and what I like about this book is that the presence of Darling

1307
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:18,880
where they actually take an interest like Crocus takes an interest in communicating

1308
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:23,640
with Darling and learning her sign language to be able to talk to her but it actually

1309
01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:26,200
enhances the relationship with Silent as well.

1310
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:35,080
He becomes better at communicating with Silent and that kind of brings us to again we've

1311
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:40,480
avoided spoilers up to now so let's not do it now but the end of the book there's a surprising

1312
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:44,760
amount of heart considering how grim this book is.

1313
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:48,240
The point of the whole point of the story is that it's all for nothing.

1314
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:55,040
All of this the classic quality of grimdark stories all of this is for nothing.

1315
01:20:55,040 --> 01:21:00,400
All these lives lost it's all a waste of time it doesn't mean anything.

1316
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:11,840
And so to end with this really sincere emotional and like clean and pure emotion of trust and

1317
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:17,000
love and devotion it really knocked me for six.

1318
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:21,600
I think it's a testament to the themes of the book and people describe the Black Company

1319
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:27,200
as being a very bleak story and I actually struggle to see it that way.

1320
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:31,120
Yes the narrative of what they're doing the war they're fighting is always hopeless but

1321
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:36,240
the internal mechanism of the Black Company and how it operates as a family is actually

1322
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,360
I think very uplifting.

1323
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:45,280
You know the banter between Goblin and One Eye the fact that Darling is brought in and

1324
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:49,040
they learn the sign language and I love the fact that you know they embrace her sign language

1325
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:54,040
and they use it to communicate with Silent but the Captain even amuses on using it as

1326
01:21:54,040 --> 01:22:00,480
like a way to communicate non-verbally during like missions.

1327
01:22:00,480 --> 01:22:06,320
It shows that they are a community and despite what the horrible things they may be contractively

1328
01:22:06,320 --> 01:22:14,640
obligated to do when they sign up as a mercenary band they do look after each other.

1329
01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:17,080
And that's nice.

1330
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:18,080
It is.

1331
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:19,080
It is.

1332
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:24,920
And it goes to show like that the book it makes so much sense that this book is about

1333
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:31,360
camaraderie when you can what you've told me you know about this dude being like a Marine

1334
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:36,280
in the early days of the Vietnam War that it makes a lot of sense that he'd be writing

1335
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:37,280
that experience.

1336
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:44,000
It reminds me of something that was once said on the Overly Sarcastic Production YouTube

1337
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:50,960
channel which is that they were comparing the works of JRR Tolkien and George R. R.

1338
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:56,160
Martin because Tolkien was born in the 1800s.

1339
01:22:56,160 --> 01:23:01,880
He lived through World War I, he paused writing The Lord of the Rings, what World War II was

1340
01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:08,760
going on and all of his books are coloured by this immense darkness and this immense

1341
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:13,400
sense that the world is getting worse and it will never get better again.

1342
01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:18,680
And the only hope you have is to be a good Catholic and you'll go to heaven.

1343
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:21,000
Yes.

1344
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:27,720
And you know that all makes sense like the fall of Gondolin I would argue is based on

1345
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:33,520
the song where Tolkien lost all but one of his best friends he'd known growing up.

1346
01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:39,480
He had a very dark sad life and that hopelessness is very reflected in the stories.

1347
01:23:39,480 --> 01:23:46,480
And then you have George R. R. Martin who's a baby boomer and he's writing about a darkness

1348
01:23:46,480 --> 01:23:50,360
which is inspired by Glenn Cook.

1349
01:23:50,360 --> 01:23:53,200
He's writing based on what he thinks is cool.

1350
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:58,760
He's writing about, he's writing Elric of Mell Nibene fanfictions.

1351
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:03,320
We know what a Targaryen is, it's a Mell Nibenean.

1352
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:05,320
Completely.

1353
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:07,520
There's a sense of taking from inspiration.

1354
01:24:07,520 --> 01:24:13,720
And I think all that goes into why Glenn Cook's writing, just comparing it back to something

1355
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:18,280
like the Shred Rays of Cure, it doesn't come off as cringy in the same way because when

1356
01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:24,280
he is being dark or edgy it very often feels like it's coming from a very, how do I say

1357
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:28,240
it, genuine place in a non-horrible way.

1358
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:29,560
Yes, it's sincere.

1359
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:36,060
This book is very sincere even as there's a lot of sarcastic, sardonic elements.

1360
01:24:36,060 --> 01:24:37,640
This book has heart.

1361
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:42,320
It's a grim, slightly rotted heart but it's there.

1362
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:45,680
I think that's honestly, I think we've kind of hit all the many beautiful points of this

1363
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:50,360
book and I'm so glad you joined in the enjoyment.

1364
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:53,640
There's actually one little detail which you would have picked up on which I think I'll

1365
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:58,440
just throw out while we're talking about George R. R. Martin and Tolkien comparisons.

1366
01:24:58,440 --> 01:25:00,320
It's a very common conversation point with The Black Company.

1367
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:04,520
Obviously you were on audiobooks so you would have known this but The Black Company and

1368
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:08,920
Glencoke as I was quite fair, is not including maps.

1369
01:25:08,920 --> 01:25:12,280
Glencoke thinks they are unnecessary if you write your book well enough.

1370
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:14,280
The readers shouldn't need one.

1371
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:15,280
Thoughts?

1372
01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:20,760
Yeah, and I think that makes sense because the names he gives to locations are very descriptive

1373
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:22,160
and they stand out.

1374
01:25:22,160 --> 01:25:24,360
He doesn't give them proper names.

1375
01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:30,680
He names them like the Cloudy Woods, the Jewel Cities, the something steps, I forget what

1376
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:33,240
he said there, the Black Tower.

1377
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:36,920
They have these striking, obvious stand out names.

1378
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:39,480
Yeah, I'm in the same boat really, I had nothing more to add.

1379
01:25:39,480 --> 01:25:42,680
Only the fact that there's many fan made maps online.

1380
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:47,600
But I really kind of appreciate it because you don't need it, you can follow what's

1381
01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:52,160
going on and also because like I said earlier, the company is always marching between places,

1382
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:57,600
you still get a nice sense of distance and scale when it's needed and when it's relevant

1383
01:25:57,600 --> 01:25:58,600
to the plot.

1384
01:25:58,600 --> 01:26:01,800
At one point he says, we've been marching for months.

1385
01:26:01,800 --> 01:26:05,320
I know, I feel the pain.

1386
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:09,560
Well, I think that kind of brings to the end our thoughts on The Black Company.

1387
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:12,680
Obviously Glen Cook has written many other series.

1388
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:16,080
If you do end up reading The Black Company, enjoy it.

1389
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:18,040
Push forward with The Black Company.

1390
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:21,840
He's also read a great dark fantasy series called The Dread Empire, which I read the

1391
01:26:21,840 --> 01:26:23,200
first trilogy of.

1392
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:30,000
It's similar-esque to The Black Company as anything could be, except maybe it's a little

1393
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:33,440
bit more focusing on those higher power users in the world.

1394
01:26:33,440 --> 01:26:36,680
Also I haven't read, but Geordie, this is so up my alley.

1395
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:40,800
Do you know what Glen Cook's second longest series is after The Black Company?

1396
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:42,800
No idea.

1397
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:47,440
Garrett P.I., our hard-boiled detective on the streets.

1398
01:26:47,440 --> 01:26:53,060
I'm just like, oh Glen, yes, this is what I need.

1399
01:26:53,060 --> 01:26:58,560
Is that real life noir or is that like fantasy P.I. noir?

1400
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,640
I believe it's real life.

1401
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:01,640
Okay.

1402
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:05,600
Hello Geordie, I think we've come to the closing moments.

1403
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:12,160
So if it's not been painfully obvious so far, do you recommend this book and if so, who

1404
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:13,160
to?

1405
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:16,360
Well, do I recommend the book?

1406
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:19,600
That's a very different question to did I like it?

1407
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:25,960
Because there's only a small fraction of people I can say yes, I feel confident about telling

1408
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:28,340
you to read this book.

1409
01:27:28,340 --> 01:27:33,560
You need to really line up with a lot of my personal takes to like this.

1410
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:39,120
You got to have a high tolerance for like darkness, but not necessarily edginess.

1411
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:45,360
You've got to be okay with reading a very opaque, mysterious story that's not interested

1412
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:51,880
in actually giving you answers and be an appreciator of just good books.

1413
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:57,680
You have to, if you feel like you have a high tolerance for that stuff, yes, this is a great

1414
01:27:57,680 --> 01:27:58,680
book.

1415
01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:01,440
I'm so pleased to hear that it might even get better.

1416
01:28:01,440 --> 01:28:03,960
I would recommend it to those people.

1417
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:09,520
To put it more abruptly, if you like Berserk, read this book.

1418
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:10,980
I like Berserk.

1419
01:28:10,980 --> 01:28:12,520
This is really good.

1420
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:15,200
I am absolutely thrilled.

1421
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:20,400
And yes, I fully recommend The Black Company and the continuing series.

1422
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:24,540
Do read it in publication order, please.

1423
01:28:24,540 --> 01:28:28,480
The idea that you go from The Black Company to Port of Shadows is heinous.

1424
01:28:28,480 --> 01:28:31,000
Do not do that to yourself.

1425
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:34,800
And to kind of build off the audience point, you're right, there are some definite requirements

1426
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:35,800
here.

1427
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:39,920
Even if you're a fan of maybe some more modern books that characterize this Grimdark, I'm

1428
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:42,100
thinking like First Law.

1429
01:28:42,100 --> 01:28:44,760
I don't think it's quite a one-to-one.

1430
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:48,800
You would, you know, if you enjoy that, you enjoy this in any way.

1431
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:50,640
But not the same.

1432
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:56,160
Whereas there's similar elements of what I talked about in Best Serve Cold, we talked

1433
01:28:56,160 --> 01:29:00,640
about in Best Serve Cold, I'm not going to take all the credit, about just being content

1434
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:04,880
to ride the wave of chaos.

1435
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:12,400
That's close to being here in this book, but it's less joyous in its darkness.

1436
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:17,360
There's a very different, not very, there's a somewhat different but distinct tone.

1437
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:20,780
And so I do actually then have to follow, I was going to be like, well, maybe like Prince

1438
01:29:20,780 --> 01:29:27,400
of Thorns, but I don't think that is as mature as this book by any stretch of the imagination.

1439
01:29:27,400 --> 01:29:31,800
No, no, not like Prince of Thorns.

1440
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:35,360
Thank you for bringing it up, Duncan, because I was going to say, I was going to leverage

1441
01:29:35,360 --> 01:29:38,920
into this when we talked about George R. R. Martin, there is a generation of writers out

1442
01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:43,520
there who have read The Black Company, they've taken a wrong idea, they've gone, this is

1443
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:45,760
dark and edgy and cool.

1444
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:51,880
I'm going to do that too, without having the emotional courage or strength to really pay

1445
01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:53,600
respect to it.

1446
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:57,760
I don't have the same filter that Croker has.

1447
01:29:57,760 --> 01:30:01,840
And in many respects, I hope this doesn't go the wrong way, I think The Black Company

1448
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:07,080
probably does some of these, treats a lot of these matters with greater respect and

1449
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:11,800
sincerity than Berserk even does by a good margin.

1450
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:17,400
Well that's not a high bar, the only real bar of comparison would be the way Berserk

1451
01:30:17,400 --> 01:30:23,840
talks about sexual assault and rape of men, obviously it's shit in talking about that

1452
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:29,800
for female characters, but it's quite good at talking about it for male characters.

1453
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:32,760
I'm not going to make the comparison, I just thought I had to bring that up.

1454
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:40,400
It is not quite maybe what its reputation has led it to be, it is the grandaddy of the

1455
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:50,800
darker fantasy genre and in being the grandaddy, it is I think mature in what it's approaching.

1456
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:58,200
So good on The Black Company, but please you know, take the trigger warnings very seriously.

1457
01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:01,720
And don't be misled by the way by thinking this is necessarily an overly bleak or depressing

1458
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:07,640
book, it is a bleak world, but ultimately those spirits of camaraderie I think do make

1459
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:10,320
it uplifting by the end.

1460
01:31:10,320 --> 01:31:17,080
Yeah the last chapter is, I actually Duncan I have to say, right as I was going into the

1461
01:31:17,080 --> 01:31:22,760
dark chapter I was captured enough by the grim mood of it, there's this one moment where

1462
01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:31,720
they say this character died, and the moment I heard that I went oh shit this book sucks,

1463
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:38,120
because I was so upset by this, I was so ready to be distraught and like just sort of kick

1464
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:45,200
a can or something, that if they didn't pull up at that last second and leave us with this

1465
01:31:45,200 --> 01:31:51,400
tender soft sweet chapter, I probably wouldn't be really mad about this book.

1466
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:57,280
So take away there, if this book was missing its last chapter it wouldn't be as good.

1467
01:31:57,280 --> 01:32:00,320
You can't, Duncan you can't say that for all seasons.

1468
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:02,680
No that is very true.

1469
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:04,880
So I recommend The Black Company.

1470
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:06,340
Warbreaker.

1471
01:32:06,340 --> 01:32:10,120
So we recommend The Black Company, if you have read it and would love to share your

1472
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:15,560
thoughts with us on it, then the best place is always on our Instagram, it is just Fantasy

1473
01:32:15,560 --> 01:32:16,560
Podcasts.

1474
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:21,480
Follow us there for updates when the newest episode drops and see additional write ups

1475
01:32:21,480 --> 01:32:22,480
and reviews.

1476
01:32:22,480 --> 01:32:26,440
I'm working on one for Conan the City of the Dead as we speak and should go up even before

1477
01:32:26,440 --> 01:32:30,040
this episode, so look out for that.

1478
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:35,240
As always there's our Gmail as well as FantasyPodcasts.gmail.com, we always love to hear from you, it makes

1479
01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:38,960
our day so much, it means a smile to both our faces.

1480
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:43,960
So please do get in touch, even if just to say like that episode.

1481
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:46,760
Guys message that our podcast was lit the other day and honestly I've been riding that

1482
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:51,840
high for the entire week, so thank you mate, you're awesome.

1483
01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:55,880
Alright Duncan, there's only one last thing left to be done.

1484
01:32:55,880 --> 01:32:58,560
Oh yes, the next book.

1485
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:05,880
Well Geordie, I have been thinking and I've been thinking and thinking and to be quite

1486
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:11,240
honest I was actually like, do I hit another big one off the list?

1487
01:33:11,240 --> 01:33:16,480
Something that I've been meaning to do for ages but I was swerved at the last minute

1488
01:33:16,480 --> 01:33:22,280
and actually I want to hit a book that I was gifted for Christmas and I have started reading

1489
01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:25,880
it and I've been very much enjoying it and I want to see if it continues to be good and

1490
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:33,680
I want to share it with you and that is the story of The Bonesmith by Nicky Paul Pretto.

1491
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:39,160
Right okay, now for the first time in a little while I have no idea what this book is.

1492
01:33:39,160 --> 01:33:43,680
I've never heard of this, is this new, did this come out a while ago, what's up?

1493
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:45,280
That is an excellent question.

1494
01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:51,840
It is relatively new, this book came out in 2023, it's been described as Gideon the Ninth

1495
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:57,480
meets Game of Thrones, so it's been said, to be honest Gideon the Ninth is something

1496
01:33:57,480 --> 01:33:59,160
I want to read.

1497
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:04,360
Yeah, I mean people talk about that all the time and the more they talk about it I'm like

1498
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:06,520
what the hell is this book about?

1499
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:08,080
Is this book about Homestuck?

1500
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:10,120
What's going on?

1501
01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:13,920
Let's start here, let's see if it's a good one, maybe we've discovered something new

1502
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:18,280
and fantastic or maybe we'll get online and realise everyone else has been talking about

1503
01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:24,080
this and we're well behind on the world of fantasy books culture.

1504
01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:31,200
Who knows, let's see, but that will be next time, I've been your host Duncan Nicholl

1505
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:33,360
and I've been your host Geordie Bailey.

1506
01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:35,360
Till next time.

1507
01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:48,880
Peace out, bye!