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Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This Just Fantasy, the podcast where every other week two nerds get together to rate read and review

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A fantasy novel. I’m your host, Black Tooth Geordie. And I’m your other host

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Merciless Duncan. Oh

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Those are our northern names

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Yes, if and Geordie's already a pretty northern name. Duncan's a Scottish name, mate. It's

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Not necessary, but here we are

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rent embrace the spirit so

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If you hadn't picked up so far we are reading we're jumping back into the oh

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What do you even call it The Blade Itself?

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The First Law series. What is it called? It's the First Law of course universe

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It's very confusing. We've got the First Law trilogy and then they sort of just call the rest of the series

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The First Law universe series doesn't have a cool name

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Mmm, because this is the second this is the second book in the second series within the First Law

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Chronicles, that's right by Joe Abercrombie

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We started by reading the first book in the second series Best Served Cold earlier this year. It was a great time

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now I

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Have already read the original trilogy and I intentionally got Geordie not to read that first

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Partly because I don't think The Blade Itself is that amazing or at least as amazing as the books that come afterwards and also

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The marketing has always pushed that you can read the second series without reading the first one and I want to test it out on Geordie

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And I think we definitely found that was pretty true in the first one

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Like it was amusing in some ways because it took me a pretty good portion of a book

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To realize that the Bloody Nine was Logen Nine Fingers. They were the same person

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I didn't realize that at first and a character called the cripple who I thought was like just like a

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Background character that people sometimes talked about. Oh, no, that's a main character. So that was funny

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But I think it pretty much I did just like get to enjoy the book and I didn't need to do any homework beforehand

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However Duncan, I really don't think that you could read this second book without having read

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The one before it and also haven't said yet. We're reading for heroes the one that comes after Best Served Cold

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But I have no idea how you were able to read this book before you read Best Served Cold Duncan

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Yes, that's the point

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I read The Heroes before I read Best Served Cold mostly because I knew that The Heroes were set in the bit of this universe

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You know

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It's called the north where the barbarians are fighting the colonialist powers of The Union who have continued trying to expand into their territory

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And that was my favourite bit of the setting from the original trilogy. So I went right

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I’m going straight in for The Heroes and I'll tell you now Geordie. I

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Read it. Absolutely fine. Genuinely the bits that reference Best Served Cold meant nothing to me because I thought well

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Yeah

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This book would be harder to read if you hadn't read the original trilogy because so many of the characters in this book like Black

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Dow. Bethod, the Dog Man, they're all heavily featured in that original trilogy

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So how did you get on and I didn't have I didn't have any problem following the story

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I wasn't sure to what extent certain characters were important like

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Because they'd read Best Served Cold. I knew the Bloody Nine is a big deal

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I’m like, okay

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The fact these people are talking about having like killed for Bloody Nine or we've been on the same side as him

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I guess here's the thing I said that and I’m like, oh is that a spoiler?

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But the funny thing is that like I have no idea if it is because I think Black Down might just be lying about that

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like I

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That's the great thing about this book is people say so much bullshit

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But it isn't true and I’m like, are you just making that up? Did that actually happen in the books or not?

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I have no idea

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I’m gonna tell you now for this point reading the universe. You're not meant to know that is actually very intentional on behalf of the author

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So that's interesting. I’m glad I’m having the right experience the bits which I think that's like

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Like cuz you read this book. Did you know who Caul Shivers was when you first read this book?

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the character of course Shivers is a side character in the original trilogy and one the main characters in Best Served Cold and

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reading this book before Best Served Cold I had no idea what had happened to this poor guy because when you leave this

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What happened to you in the end of the original trilogy?

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He kind of goes off with a bit of a hopeful smile and I’m gonna have a better life and then reading The Heroes

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It's like he's missing an eye. He's heavily scars and he's like I’m having the worst time ever and I’m like, oh dear god

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Things were bad

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But I also didn't know that that happened on page because I didn't know the plot of Best Served Cold

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I was like, maybe it was meant to happen off page and I'll also tell you this for nothing. I

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Forgot between reading The Heroes and reading Best Served Cold

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That Caul Shivers is in The Heroes like I genuinely read Best Served Cold completely

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Later horribly scars and diminished

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Well, that's good. It didn't ruin your experience of Best Served Cold then because you forgot the bit

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I think is would be let down and this is just because I’ve read Best Served Cold and I can't imagine someone

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Not having read Best Served Cold before this but the stuff with Gorst and his humiliation

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Which happens is a really minor event in Best Served Cold

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It becomes one of the main plot points of this book that one of our big

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Our big heroes like has to redeem himself because of shit that happened in the previous book

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and

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You're supposed to be like, oh my god him and Caul Shivers the guy who just so happened to cause that downfall spoilers, Geordie

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You're right, okay no spoilers yet

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But they're on the same battlefield and you're waiting for them

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to run into each other and for is he gonna realize that it's him and

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It's really interesting how that plays out but

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To begin with no spoilers and to begin with more

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Duncan

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Because we ask each other this every time

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Have you been reading anything else?

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No, this has been enough for me reading The Heroes has been an absolute experience

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And it's literally all my time is dedicated to it. Yeah, and the same goes for me

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I actually thought it wasn't going to be able to make it through because it is a chunky book

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but I managed to buy a combination of reading both the physical book and the audiobook on Spotify and

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It really was perfect because the book itself is way too long for the 15 hour long

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15 hour limit

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Spotify gives you to read a book for free

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But because I also own the physical book I sort of just jumped back and forth between them based on where I was

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So if I was in bed, I would read the book and if I was going to work

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I would listen to the audiobook and I was like, okay, great

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I’ve got the best of both worlds and you need to have the physical book

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This is the first time I think in a whole podcast. I’m like you literally

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Cannot get by without having a physical book because this one has something pretty unique to it

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A lot of fantasy novels have maps at the front most of the time. They're pointless

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This is the least pointless a map has ever been in a fantasy novel

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That's right, Jordi. I even remember having to tell you about this. You were like, oh, what's the importance?

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I was like no, it's so critical because this map it doesn't even show like a massive area. It's not a continent

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It's the map of the very close-knit battlefield that this book

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Almost entirely focuses on but what's really important is that throughout the book this map gets updated

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For the reader as troops move about the battlefield and this is so important for the plot like Joe Abercrombie as

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Well, literally you can see it

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He is mapping it out for you and the whole focus of this fight is that he is mapping it out every step

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If a guy's over there, he is never gonna have a conversation with the bloke standing over there

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You know is beat by beat step by step hour by hour

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mapped out yes and

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More so like there's a really strong emphasis in this book on literally the strategies which characters are employing

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It's a book about war

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But it's not like a Saving Private Ryan book

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It doesn't try and say war is bad by showing how gruesome it can be it shows that war is bad because it's tedious

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and it's stupid and

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so you get down to the minutia of

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troops moving around on this little board and

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Then sitting there and waiting for days on end

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one of the characters in this book and now I guess we're going to get into characters is

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Corporal Tunny and the great thing about Corporal Tunny is that he's the most experienced soldier in the entire book

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He's only a corporal. He's not a general and he's not like a warchief like on the northern side

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but what he is is

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That he's just a guy who's been in the army for a really long time and will do whatever it takes to not have to fight

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I

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Love this character. I love the fact that we're going straight into like the structure of a light we pregnant

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But like yeah, this we're gonna hit all the main POV characters and

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We haven't even said if we really endorse the book do you endorse the book? Do you like this book? Oh, yeah

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This is a great book. I don't know if it's as good as Best Served Cold

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I think they're pretty I think the heights of this book are better than the heights of Best Served Cold

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But it has a slightly slow ending and Best Served Cold had a great ending. So I think it's just edging it out

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Absolutely fair enough. I feel agree with your assessment. I love this book. I

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Really enjoy the individual characters that we see. I think it's message on war is beautifully delivered

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But I think you're also right. It wasn't as consistently rip-roaring

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Best Served Cold is excellent, it’s quite episodic. We go and have the always like mini adventures harkening back to those sort of short story

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action sword and sorcery that I adore

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this one

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It plays out a little slower

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It really gives you those laws and combat in a weird way. It kind of reminds me of like reading like Master and Commander

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we have long stretches of book where it's kind of like a bit more chill and

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then though that just makes the moments of

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Actual heightened action just all the more intense

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This is a book where for the most part aside from some really major characters

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There is a strong feeling of fatality, you know, you really believe it when a fight starts

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Okay people important characters are going to die

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I’m gonna see it happen and it's not going to be retconned out of the way

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Really actually what you can count on most of all is not that characters will die. It's just that characters will be miserable. I

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Think that's a really solid outtake live or die. They're having a bad day

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And I think that being just right anytime. I wanted to predict what would happen next in the story

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I was just like what would make Gorst unhappy and I just decided that would happen and I was always correct

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And what we see of this battle is as mentioned for those six key POV's throughout the book that we keep jumping between on

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both sides of the conflict and

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Then bringing that back to Tunny one of the minor POV's I’d actually say in terms of impacting events

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But very good at giving you that probably the low

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Lowliest soldiers outlook

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Probably I think aside from random POVs we occupy. Yes

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He's basically the lowest ranking dude like even a guy who starts off the story uh call no, no, no, sorry not Calder

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Craw. Craw starts off and he seems like a pretty unimportant guy, but he ends up being super important by the end

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so very true

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Geordie actually before we jump back to Tunny, I know we're darting about like madman

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I think I do need to just lay down this conflict a little bit more clearly and then we can jump between sides

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fair enough

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So The Heroes named after a sort of stone hinge kind structure on top of a hill on the north side

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Of a river and approaching upon it. We have two parties the Northmen led by Black Dow the most recent king of the north

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Not a very nice man. Not very well liked

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And from the south we have union which is the traditional

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Roman British colonial power

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That's pushing up into these rights. You've got barbarity versus civilization

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That's definitely one way to put it and this real conflict

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I mean

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I’m not even 100 sure why they're fighting each other

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I think The Union have taken some land and the Northmen want it back. Some people just want to fight. It's just what you do

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It's revealed later on. Yeah, absolutely

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It's um, it's all about like The Union trying to seize like some important power

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And and and ultimately but the absolute point is that it's basically pointless like the characters are doing this because

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Just because of like almost

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bureaucratic

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Stagnation like they could achieve a lot if they were able to talk but

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Black Dow can't just like acquiesce to any demand from union because it would make him look weak

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So he has to fight even though he's not a great man

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No one's actually fighting over the territory where they're meeting. It's not like they're fighting in order to have

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The Heroes. The Heroes are pointless. It's just a well

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Defendable location. So the northerners are like, okay, let's stand here and let them come to us

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And throughout the book you've got these intelligent political characters who are saying, you know, warfare is the least

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It's the least profitable is the least effective form of getting things done

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But we're doing it anyway

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Well, that's nicely summed up

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back to Tunny. Tunny's great because Tunny realizes this

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And Tunny wants to stay alive

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He's long. He has no time for heroics

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Exactly. He's left that that was for that's for the young

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and the dead heroics

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Tunny's here to technically fulfil his orders

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and not die doing it

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And what I like about this is that like recently I’ve started listening to a couple of like podcasts that aren't really about war

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But just so happen to be run by guys that used to be in the U.S. Amy

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And so occasionally they'll sprinkle in an anecdote about like being in Afghanistan or Iraq

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And the overwhelming impression you get is that it's so much of the time spent there is just sitting in your hands

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waiting not doing anything

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Certainly not doing anything of real importance

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And this book really captures especially in Tunny's sections that

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It's very tedious stuff like

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We won't get into proper spoilers on Tunny's section

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But Tunny spends about four days standing in the same spot

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Not doing anything

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And that's not like a critique of the book and saying oh this book's boring because Tunny doesn't do anything

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No, that's the point and it's interesting and it's funny

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And it's observant. It's weirdly the closest thing to almost like a Terry Pratchett character

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Maybe that's quite an out there thing to say about Joe Abercrombie writing

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But this is no but you're right. The tone is somewhat different, of course, but like this is just like an

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Sam Vimes with like a couple more

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Scales on the jaded, you know the jaded radar and it's really enjoyable to read

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But as you kind of said him kind of why we're addressing him first

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That's because he stands a lot of time just sitting there making his observations and being amusing

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I think he's very much good at reading

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Making his observations and being amusing. I think he's very much good for the pacing of the book

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It sort of brings levity from when you're reading maybe another section with some pretty intense emotional gut punches throughout

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It's like oh, thank goodness. We're back with Tunny not to say though Georgia

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I don't know if you felt this um on your first read

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I remember feeling this quite a lot on my first read is I actually got quite a lot of anxiety

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In the later parts of the book with Tunny plus like oh no, is he going to go really wrong for him at the last minute?

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No, I completely predicted what was going to happen with Tunny like basically from like the third time he showed up

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I can't explain that without getting into spoilers

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So shall we hold off and get back to that later?

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Absolutely. Let's move on to another

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Really enjoyable character

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Let's hop the fence and let's talk about the other side

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so on the Northmen side we have

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Some really interesting characters here there. So I said there's six overall kind of main POV characters

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They're

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Not quite evenly split

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Are they? Oh, no, actually they are sorry being an idiot. Yes, they are evenly split

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So on the Northmen side we have the young boy Beck who's just left home for the first time

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Taking his father's sword of course

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And he's off. He's

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Off. He's just drunk on the stories that the old men tell around the fire of his father's heroics

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And the honour and glory to be won on the battlefield

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Yeah, and his father's great story of heroics is much like a lot of people getting killed by the Bloody Nine

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Completely Geordie. I just want to like what is your impression of the Bloody Nine at this point? Like

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How does he stand in your mind?

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My impression is that and listen

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I am you know, I love being in a position of only having heard about this character by reputation

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Never having seen his own perspective never actually seeing anyone up close in first person say

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I’m looking him dead in the face and this is what I think

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And what I love about this is that I get the impression that he has this

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extremely dark reputation which stands on top of probably a much more

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Intricate and maybe a bit more soulful character the thing which we will keep

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Mentioned he says a lot is you have to be realistic

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And what I get the feeling of is that he's someone who does extremely dark

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Of violent things because he feels like he has to like he's driven to do it

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And he probably spends a lot of his time kind of feeling bad about that

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He has to do it, but he can't break the pattern of behaviour which leads him to keep repeating these violent actions again and again and again

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Honestly Geordie

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That's a pretty fantastic summation of the character

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Hooray

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I understand fantasy novels. He's not Caul Shivers in this book where he's just I don't care

250
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I enjoy being violent because I need some sense of power and control in my life

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No, that's not the impression. I get of him at all. Although it's what other people might say about him

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Oh

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definitely

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nonetheless

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So nonetheless with Beck. Beck is a character who looks up to guys like the Bloody Nine who killed his dad

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And he's like hell. Yeah, I’d like to be like that

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He's drunk off the ideas of what it means to be a man

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What it means to be a hero what it means to be a soldier and he's eager to sign up

259
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When like the people come around to like draft him into the army

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and his

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story is

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the least funny

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it's

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Probably the darkest and it's definitely the most on the nose in terms of being an anti-war book

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This is the Saving Private Ryan bit. I’m inclined to agree. This is where it really rolls out to one character how

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traumatizing

267
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Combat can be there's quite a few characters in this book who are completely desensitized to violence

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And if all your characters are like that

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Then the book becomes desensitized to violence and you as the reader then become desensitized

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To what the book's describing so I think it's great to have Beck there as a very to be honest

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Relatable and probably my own perspective character on what's going on sure exactly

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Beck should be the insight. He should be the person who you're you read this book and you're like

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I kind of want to be you know, like one of the cool calm collective badass characters

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Is most of whom we don't actually get like an internal monologue on with the exception being

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Gorst who's the opposite of Beck in every way pretty much

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But you're supposed to think damn. I probably would end up being Beck wouldn't I?

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Beck's experiences of battle are harrowing and more than that. It's not even that it's like oh, it's dark

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It's the fact that he's completely inert and powerless. He's incapable of taking any action once the sword starts swinging

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He's so

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paralyzed by fear

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Again something the characters keep saying in this book is that war is either boring and tedious or

282
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I can't know what exactly say like it's like arse-openingly scary

283
00:22:00,580 --> 00:22:02,420
sounds about right

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So yeah, he's paralyzed by fear like it's a physical reaction. He doesn't get you know fight he gets freeze

285
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I mean, I think he's lucky. He doesn't get flight or his own side would probably have cut him down

286
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If he had chosen flight, he probably would have ended up in a much better state by the end of the novel

287
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I love what he happens in his later scenes after

288
00:22:26,180 --> 00:22:29,860
You know what Duncan actually I think we kind of have to drop the spoiler thing because if we need to discuss

289
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Like characters and why they work. I think we are going to have to um get past the

290
00:22:35,380 --> 00:22:41,460
We can't just circle back and do everyone again after we cross over like the arbitrary spoiler barrier

291
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I think that's very fair

292
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So before we go any further

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Duncan do you recommend this book?

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Yes, obviously I recommend this book anyone who listened to our Best Served Cold episode probably would have been able to guess

295
00:22:55,300 --> 00:23:01,140
I was going to have to recommend this book as well because it's fantastically written if you like Best Served Cold

296
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:06,020
You'll like The Heroes if you haven't read anything. I actually think you could read The Heroes

297
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But you should at least read Best Served Cold. You don't need to read the first trilogy

298
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It is not necessary

299
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:15,560
But The Heroes and with this one in particular

300
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uh, it's

301
00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:22,580
It works so well as a standalone and Duncan you can attest to that because you hadn't read

302
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Best Served Cold before this and I haven't read any of uh

303
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The Blade Itself not The Blade Itself, but

304
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First Law trilogy

305
00:23:32,180 --> 00:23:34,900
The First Law trilogy. I keep wanting to say Sword of Truth

306
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very different vibes

307
00:23:40,740 --> 00:23:48,180
So yes, it works as a standalone and so much so that if you don't even read fantasy novels and for some reason

308
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You're listening to this podcast

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If you don't really agree with you like sci-fi novels that have like action elements

310
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You should read this if you like Tom Clancy novels or Bernard Cornwell novels or Patrick O’Brien novels

311
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You should read this because it's the lowest fantasy we've ever read

312
00:24:07,860 --> 00:24:09,860
period full stop

313
00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:15,620
We don't even get any of those vampire super soldiers in this one. The nail you hit there with Bernard Cornwell

314
00:24:15,620 --> 00:24:23,860
Like if you read Bernard Cornwell and you read his sacks and stories this may just be the best step from historical

315
00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:26,020
Fiction into low fantasy you could ever take

316
00:24:26,740 --> 00:24:32,820
No doubt in some ways it's more Bernard Cornwell than Bernard Cornwell stories like Bernard Cornwell loves talking about you know

317
00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:40,260
A flanking manoeuvre and a shield wall, but like you can actually see the lines on the battlefield in this one

318
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Anyway

319
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We recommend, so back to Beck

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00:24:48,180 --> 00:24:53,940
Beck later to be known as red Beck. Hell. Yeah, I talked about emotional gut punch. So gut

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I talked about emotional gut punches earlier Geordie. I think this is one of the first

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Really good ones in the book

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The first absolute moments of oh my god. I can't believe she went there joe

324
00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:09,140
Yeah, how could you I when this when this moment happened in the book?

325
00:25:09,140 --> 00:25:15,220
I was so shocked, but I immediately texted Duncan and I genuinely think

326
00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:20,260
Of all the books we've done so far. Nothing has actually made me go

327
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like this

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00:25:23,380 --> 00:25:30,820
That is high praise indeed Geordie. Tell our readers… readers? Listeners! This is some podcast audio thing

329
00:25:31,860 --> 00:25:33,300
What happened?

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00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:36,020
So Beck is in his first battle

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And all of the his comrades downstairs who are like teenagers and children by the way

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Of being held up in a house then held up in a house. They're being murdered by union soldiers Beck

333
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Cannot bring himself to intervene

334
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He can't bring himself to go down and join the fight even though he's the biggest even though he's the strongest

335
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He just stays upstairs

336
00:25:59,940 --> 00:26:06,180
And then as he hears the fight come to an end he gets up and he hides in a closet

337
00:26:07,540 --> 00:26:14,180
And then whilst he's hiding in this closet he hears the patting of feet as a soldier comes up from downstairs

338
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And he sees through the crack a union sword and finally as he's mustering the you know

339
00:26:20,820 --> 00:26:27,220
The fear that he needs to live so he can finally do the first action of the war he bursts

340
00:26:27,220 --> 00:26:32,580
Action of the war he bursts out of the closet and he runs the guy through with his sword

341
00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:36,020
And it's not a union soldier

342
00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:44,660
It's one of his comrades the only one who was able to actually like stand his ground and win and kill four union soldiers

343
00:26:45,060 --> 00:26:47,060
like an actual

344
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Bonafide hero gets run through by his own side

345
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And that character is the only person that Beck ever kills

346
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This is heart-wrenching on so many levels

347
00:27:02,980 --> 00:27:10,500
Like you've got Beck's own sense of guilt. You've got the sort of injustice of the character. He kills. I believe his name is wreck

348
00:27:11,060 --> 00:27:12,820
refed

349
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refed

350
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The fact that this guy

351
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Should be the hero. He just made himself a legend

352
00:27:19,780 --> 00:27:24,260
He was the young kid who took on you know outnumbered four to one

353
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And then what I love about going after this scene is then Beck can't bring himself to tell people what happened

354
00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:38,980
And just ends up he doesn't like take the glory. He just lets them pile it on him

355
00:27:39,860 --> 00:27:46,180
And he's so ashamed like they give him a cool name red like red Beck, which is a sick name

356
00:27:46,180 --> 00:27:53,380
Um because of all the blood he was covered in when they found him, which is his you know his pals blood and

357
00:27:54,660 --> 00:28:01,140
He never uses the name Red Beck, like he can't bring himself to people ask his name and he says it's Beck

358
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I’m Beck

359
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and

360
00:28:03,780 --> 00:28:06,420
For the rest of the story. He stays in a like

361
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Numb state where he just lets people do whatever they want. He's piled into a fight at the end

362
00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:15,780
But there are like a couple of things that

363
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:22,420
Really set him apart from the rest of the bit because what you're waiting for after this is you're going to see okay?

364
00:28:23,540 --> 00:28:25,060
How does

365
00:28:25,060 --> 00:28:30,100
Joe Abercrombie handle this character? He's been traumatized by war

366
00:28:30,660 --> 00:28:34,660
At the moment where you expect he's finally gonna come into his own

367
00:28:35,460 --> 00:28:38,820
You know I talked to you a couple of weeks back that I was reading

368
00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:43,300
Red storm rising by Tom Clancy and there's this bit where this like

369
00:28:43,860 --> 00:28:49,540
Dweeby weather guy for the air force like gets a knife and kills

370
00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:52,100
four Russian soldiers

371
00:28:52,580 --> 00:28:59,060
Um like in front of the marines and impresses them and that doesn't happen in this book. It's not that kind of book

372
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Beck is forced back into future battles

373
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But the only person he ever kills is

374
00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:10,180
Uh the only person he ever kills is his friend

375
00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:14,740
Even though he actually plays like a really pivotal moment

376
00:29:15,380 --> 00:29:20,260
In what is probably like world history by his actions in a fight

377
00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:22,820
He can never say

378
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,900
Yeah, I was a real hero. I was like a true warrior

379
00:29:28,340 --> 00:29:32,340
Completely and I think it's really nice how his arc gets finished

380
00:29:32,340 --> 00:29:37,620
In that he basically learns his lesson and he goes home at the end

381
00:29:38,340 --> 00:29:40,340
Yeah, and he's the only person he does

382
00:29:42,820 --> 00:29:48,100
I also think this is a really nice cruel irony because he went like he left home because he wanted to prove himself a man

383
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:49,860
He wanted to like grow up

384
00:29:49,860 --> 00:29:55,620
And when he comes back, you're just like yeah, you did grow up. You lost all that childhood innocence

385
00:29:55,620 --> 00:30:02,180
More than bad I’d say the reason why he's like grown up is that you're right

386
00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:05,860
He's learned his lesson and it's not that war has made him into a man

387
00:30:06,100 --> 00:30:09,860
Which is a disgusting idea that persists even into the modern day

388
00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:12,980
It's the fact that he sees things however, you know

389
00:30:12,980 --> 00:30:19,540
He realizes that like living on the farm with his mom and his little brothers like it's a good way to live

390
00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:21,700
You know, it's like that's like

391
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:25,940
You know, that's just as much a man's role and it's a sane man's role

392
00:30:26,820 --> 00:30:33,620
It's the opposite of like what you learn at the start of Best Served Cold when Monza her father's farm has burnt down

393
00:30:33,620 --> 00:30:37,380
She says it's so much easier just to steal from other people

394
00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:40,820
And for Beck it's not easier

395
00:30:41,380 --> 00:30:47,220
He's given his reward money at the end and it's a lot of money and he says I can't take that

396
00:30:47,220 --> 00:30:51,220
And he refuses it and no one else can understand why

397
00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:55,780
I think that's also really nice just to shine a light back on that previous character of Monza

398
00:30:56,340 --> 00:31:00,740
Because that was a character who killed so easily and made a point of oh, it's so easy just to

399
00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:03,380
Physically to slit this man's throat

400
00:31:04,020 --> 00:31:07,540
Very dark. I know and so it's nice to have a character that has

401
00:31:08,660 --> 00:31:10,180
humanity

402
00:31:10,180 --> 00:31:12,180
It wouldn't be defined as a

403
00:31:12,180 --> 00:31:16,740
sociopath by modern definition

404
00:31:18,420 --> 00:31:23,380
So, yeah, that's nice to see it is nice and rare and a Joe Abercrombie story

405
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:27,460
however, we have spent a lot of time talking about Beck the

406
00:31:28,180 --> 00:31:33,780
Person who has like the second least amount of like page count in terms of you know

407
00:31:34,420 --> 00:31:37,140
uh taking up the thing in a book, so I think let's speak about

408
00:31:37,140 --> 00:31:44,740
The next one a little bit faster very well. Let's jump back over to The Union side and talk quickly about Finree

409
00:31:45,940 --> 00:31:50,420
Yeah, so Finree is the sole female perspective in the story

410
00:31:51,380 --> 00:31:55,060
Everyone else is either a man or a little boy

411
00:31:55,780 --> 00:32:01,620
And so but Finree actually provides a really great different view of the battle because she's the one person

412
00:32:01,620 --> 00:32:07,780
Who never gets involved in a battle of any kind or even like a marching manoeuvre of any kind?

413
00:32:06,020 --> 00:32:11,780
Because she's the one person who never gets involved in a battle of any kind or even like a

414
00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:12,580
She's supposed to have the political lens from The Union side

415
00:32:12,660 --> 00:32:14,660
marching manoeuvre of any kind

416
00:32:13,220 --> 00:32:18,980
She's the one who can see a larger picture. She understands why characters doing what they're doing

417
00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:19,220
She's supposed to have the political lens from The Union side

418
00:32:19,220 --> 00:32:21,620
She's the daughter of the lord marshal

419
00:32:19,780 --> 00:32:25,300
She's the one who can see a larger picture. She understands why characters doing what they're doing

420
00:32:25,620 --> 00:32:28,180
She's the daughter of the Lord Marshal

421
00:32:29,220 --> 00:32:34,420
So she's out of battlefield because her father's there and he's overseeing the whole campaign

422
00:32:34,420 --> 00:32:39,140
And because her husband is an officer. I can't remember what his exact rank is

423
00:32:39,140 --> 00:32:43,620
It'll be at the front of the book. There's a huge glossary of characters at the front of the book

424
00:32:44,580 --> 00:32:47,620
And I haven't needed a glossary this bad since I read the Silmarillion.

425
00:32:47,780 --> 00:32:50,740
It's safe to say whatever his rank is, it's not high enough

426
00:32:51,540 --> 00:32:56,020
Right, Finree is extreme. She's described as being venomously ambitious

427
00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:59,300
The whole reason she's come here is not to win the battle

428
00:32:59,620 --> 00:33:03,540
It's to make sure that her husband does all the right things to get himself promoted

429
00:33:03,540 --> 00:33:06,900
I think this is a really fun character. It's a really fun

430
00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:09,700
and other element to

431
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:11,220
war and conflict

432
00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:18,100
The fact that you're looking at these organizations and they are organizations and there are ranks and there are promotions and there are pay rises

433
00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:20,820
There's a sense of almost corporateness

434
00:33:21,940 --> 00:33:23,940
to the other side so

435
00:33:24,340 --> 00:33:28,020
That's kind of really fun to see the fact that she kind of I don't say disdain but

436
00:33:28,660 --> 00:33:31,780
Almost like disinterest on what's going on over there

437
00:33:31,780 --> 00:33:33,780
Over on the other side of that field

438
00:33:34,580 --> 00:33:41,700
Is really cool. That's right. Just like Beck her arc is to change her perspective on war

439
00:33:42,260 --> 00:33:46,020
She's using it as a tool for political gain and personal ambition

440
00:33:46,660 --> 00:33:53,860
By the end of the book she comes to learn the cost of war and it's not by like killing a friend actually no

441
00:33:53,860 --> 00:34:01,300
It's about vicariously feeling the suffering of others her husband is wounded

442
00:34:01,860 --> 00:34:03,540
um her

443
00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:10,500
Not exactly a friend but like the only companion she has is taken as captive by the enemy

444
00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:17,320
And we never find out what happens to her. It's left to both ours and Finree's like dread imagination

445
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:25,560
And then at the end she like starts caring for the wounded and it's full of these vicious hideous wounds

446
00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:30,840
And she has a great confrontation with Gorst at the end, but I’d like to hit that quite a bit later actually

447
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,200
So let's now jump once again to the other side. Do you know how we're going back and forth?

448
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,960
Uh to each side of the battlefield not only is that a great thing with the POV's in the book as we kind of rotate around

449
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,920
There is actually and now we've got to the midpoint the POV characters. I’m going to talk about this chapter

450
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:52,360
It's not quite the midpoint the book made the first third but gosh Geordie. This is the best written chapter

451
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,160
I loved it. I thought the idea was great

452
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,040
So much fun to first read it

453
00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:59,540
chapter's called

454
00:34:59,540 --> 00:35:00,840
casualty

455
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,840
Go ahead Duncan

456
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:09,400
This is chapter and this chapter marks like I said about a third away from the novel the actual start of like the main conflict

457
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:12,680
This is when the armies are finally going to clash

458
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,560
And it takes a while to have happen. It does take a while the build-up is really important

459
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,200
But here it is. It kicks off and we follow a new POV and I’m like, oh

460
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,280
Oh, hello

461
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:30,520
Who are you? That's nice. Oh, you've got your ideas of war you oh you got a ring with your um

462
00:35:31,060 --> 00:35:37,080
Betrothed’s picture on it. How lovely oh how things doing I love that because it's like an

463
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:44,600
An old-fashioned version of like the locket a world war two soldier has his round his neck 10 minutes before he dies

464
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:51,080
And five minutes later in this book this character dies and I was like, oh my god

465
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,840
Wasn't expecting that what cool way to kind of kick this off

466
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,440
I love the fact that we get so much of this character by when just a few paragraphs

467
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:04,360
He's like, oh, I wish I spent more on my sword and not my foppish hat. Oh, no, we've been flanked

468
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,680
And what do I do? You know you get all of his thoughts and experiences what he thought

469
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,080
It's going to be like war or how it's the reality of it. His troops are abandoning him

470
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:18,200
It's actually paying he gets cut down and then there's a little break in the page

471
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,720
And we jump to a northerner who goes and then I hit that foppish idiot again on the head

472
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,760
and we get his perspective and we

473
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,840
Do the same again. We get a little bit of his life and they're about to storm and so it goes

474
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:38,600
And it throughout this chapter swapping back and forth as characters kill each other

475
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,040
Their murderer becomes the new perspective character

476
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,240
Loved it. I loved it because you what I wasn't expecting this

477
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,640
And each time I think they even get shorter the sections yet

478
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,880
And you obviously realize what the pattern is

479
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:59,480
But he still Joe, I can't be crammed so much into who this person is and you're like, oh you're gonna die

480
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:05,240
Yeah, and a great part of this is that you start to recognize characters like

481
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,560
You're in the

482
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:13,480
Clamour of battle and like you meet someone called rose and that person dies and they're killed by someone you don't know

483
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,480
But then you're like, oh shit. I do know this guy

484
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:24,280
This is like this is Craw's friend and now Craw's pal is hacking people down and charging through the battlefield

485
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,480
And like wait a second, but I know how this chapter's going

486
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,480
Oh, no

487
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:37,080
Craw's friend's gonna die and he does and the great thing about this is that this keeps going until you get

488
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:38,760
like and

489
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,440
What's really great about this section is that not only do you jump between characters?

490
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:48,920
It actually carries over multiple battlefields as people are routed and as they run away

491
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:56,760
It moves from like the top of The Heroes to like the river and a whole new battlefield starts

492
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:04,360
And that means that Gorst, one of the main characters like he's in the inner blurb. That's how main of a character he is

493
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,240
He becomes the perspective character and you're like, oh my god, is he going to die?

494
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,760
like he hasn't been properly tested in battle yet and

495
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:20,840
And then that makes it a really tense scene because normally I wouldn't believe that a main character in this particular battle is in danger

496
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:24,600
But the whole gimmick of this scene is about the fragility of life

497
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:32,600
So even though he's fighting real hard and he's killing a lot of people when like Golden Glama or whatever he's called shows up

498
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,720
You're like, oh shit. That's a named man. He might really be in trouble now

499
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:39,480
now

500
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:40,440
spoilers

501
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,440
Gorst doesn't die in this scene

502
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,720
He is the final one when finally the two sides decide to separate for the day's fighting

503
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,840
And what I love the way this chapter ends. I think it's so fantastic

504
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:58,600
Because I think it could so end with like, you know a real focus on the fragility or the horror

505
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:05,080
I just love that it ends on Gorst as like the two sides pull apart basically going. Oh god. Damn it

506
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:07,720
Oh, I was just getting into that

507
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,900
I was getting a proper kill streak. I was about to get an attack helicopter

508
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:17,720
And I think that's just a wonderful bit of kind of dark humour. Joe Abercrombie would just kind of send slinging in there

509
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,440
That just makes the whole chapter

510
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:26,440
It is like intense and there's a lot of motion, but he does just keep it. It sounds weird to say entertaining

511
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:29,800
Reading a book about war. I am still looking to be entertained

512
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,320
I think he just lightens it slightly at the end to go. Okay

513
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,920
I can still have a little bit more fun with more of the actiony bits of this

514
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,280
and I thought let's I want to

515
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,640
I’m gonna hone in one what you said about the book being entertaining right at the end

516
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:48,040
I think that should be the last thing we talk about

517
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:49,960
in this book

518
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,960
um before we go to

519
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,640
You know what we're reading next time or whatever. So

520
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,280
because

521
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,280
This is an

522
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,680
This is an anti-war book

523
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:08,840
Like it's about the fragility and the horror of war and I think one thing we should talk about at the end is that even possible?

524
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,400
But before we get long before we get there and before we move on to another character

525
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,720
We keep talking about Gorst or whatever. I want to raise a criticism of this chapter

526
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:22,700
Criticism I thought this is pretty top tier. What what's your issue mate?

527
00:40:23,660 --> 00:40:30,460
Well, my issue was only like 40 with this chapter and 60 with you Duncan Nicoll. Oh, no, what did I do?

528
00:40:31,180 --> 00:40:35,100
When you were reading this book last year or whatever

529
00:40:35,580 --> 00:40:39,340
You told me that the entire book was like this

530
00:40:39,820 --> 00:40:43,900
You said that the book was every time a character died

531
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:49,900
It swapped to their killer and my impression was it was about this whole chapter

532
00:40:50,220 --> 00:40:54,620
Like as an entire book like the entire battle was about swapping sides

533
00:40:55,020 --> 00:41:00,060
Not because you had perspective characters and different sides of battle because people kept dying and being replaced

534
00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:03,260
And I was really interested to see how someone would write that book

535
00:41:06,860 --> 00:41:12,140
Well, maybe I’m prone slightly to a grand eyes ideas

536
00:41:12,140 --> 00:41:16,140
Wouldn't that be a cool book though? Geordi you can go and write that it would

537
00:41:17,420 --> 00:41:19,420
Maybe it sounds hard

538
00:41:20,220 --> 00:41:24,940
That's why I was really intrigued. I’m like Joe Abercrombie is a great writer from what I’ve seen

539
00:41:25,660 --> 00:41:30,540
That sounds really difficult though. You need to get invested in these characters pretty fast

540
00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:36,300
Oh gosh what I don't even remember this conversation Geordi, but clearly

541
00:41:36,780 --> 00:41:39,900
If that was your expectation for the whole book that must have been shattering

542
00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:46,140
I was really confused at the start. I’m like man, it's swapping characters a lot. Maybe it won't kick in until later

543
00:41:46,140 --> 00:41:51,260
But it never did. I mean it did but it did it for two chapters

544
00:41:51,260 --> 00:41:54,700
It went for this chapter and for one other chapter

545
00:41:55,180 --> 00:41:59,180
Where it wasn't like people killing each other over and over and over again. It just so happened that like

546
00:41:59,820 --> 00:42:05,820
A new character is introduced as a perspective character and then they're killed and their killer became the perspective character

547
00:42:05,980 --> 00:42:08,380
But that character then wasn't immediately killed

548
00:42:08,380 --> 00:42:12,140
It's a cool idea. I never when I was actually having this conversation with someone

549
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,260
Apparently like they're like, oh, yeah, they did that in Call of Duty and I’m like, please let's not let's not debate

550
00:42:17,260 --> 00:42:19,260
They did yes the world war one game

551
00:42:19,260 --> 00:42:27,180
You were playing the British versus the Germans and whenever you were killed as a brit you swapped over and you joined the German side

552
00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:29,420
but it's like

553
00:42:29,420 --> 00:42:34,460
Literally one mission in like an otherwise completely normal Call of Duty game where it's like, okay

554
00:42:34,460 --> 00:42:38,220
Now just get back to killing the bad guys. So talking about killing the bad guys

555
00:42:38,940 --> 00:42:40,220
Gorst

556
00:42:40,220 --> 00:42:42,220
We've mentioned him several times

557
00:42:43,100 --> 00:42:44,700
He likes killing people

558
00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:45,180
Yeah

559
00:42:45,180 --> 00:42:52,300
This dude is a pretty big departure from every other character in the book because he has pretty much no redeeming qualities

560
00:42:53,260 --> 00:42:58,300
And yet he's sort of the most traditionally heroic character in this entire book

561
00:42:58,860 --> 00:43:03,660
He's the strong fighter, you know, he's the guy he only

562
00:43:03,660 --> 00:43:09,500
There's a bit in his introduction where he's like, I don't wear all that hefty armour. I just take the bare minimum I need

563
00:43:10,140 --> 00:43:12,140
One glove tanned one sword

564
00:43:12,540 --> 00:43:17,420
I’m looking after my parents dachshund and she's just woken up so she may start barking

565
00:43:18,060 --> 00:43:21,260
Tilly has a little ramp to get on the sofa. It's adorable, right?

566
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:27,260
Actually the ramp broke because my dad steps in it. So um now she has to be picked up all the time

567
00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:30,940
So yeah, this is very this is much more traditional in fact

568
00:43:30,940 --> 00:43:36,940
I think it's good that all the characters are there though because then we can actually really see Gorst in his true light

569
00:43:37,580 --> 00:43:39,580
Which is particularly coming off Beck

570
00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:42,140
absolute sociopath

571
00:43:42,140 --> 00:43:44,140
No problem with killing people

572
00:43:44,380 --> 00:43:49,920
In fact, he's more comfortable murdering people than he is like speaking up in a conversation

573
00:43:50,700 --> 00:43:57,020
Yes, it's like if john wick had social anxiety not gonna lie. I actually really liked how these bits were written as

574
00:43:57,020 --> 00:44:02,780
As someone with like with autism the level of social anxiety he has when he's like trying to talk up in like a planning meeting

575
00:44:03,100 --> 00:44:06,220
I’m like, ah, I feel you Gorst. I’m there with you buddy

576
00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:12,220
I love the fact what's interesting about Gorst is that so much of what he does

577
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,940
Physically is supposed to be impressive and cool and it is you know

578
00:44:16,940 --> 00:44:22,860
He's fighting at like a horde of barbarians and he gets you know, like says like I killed 15 men today

579
00:44:23,180 --> 00:44:25,580
And I could have done more but everyone else gave up

580
00:44:25,580 --> 00:44:31,020
But in every other way he's not physically appealing. He's ugly

581
00:44:31,580 --> 00:44:35,980
you know, he's described in such a way that like he's clearly like physically repellent and

582
00:44:36,700 --> 00:44:42,540
Most interesting of all he has like a very high pitched voice. It's described as a falsetto and he's embarrassed about this

583
00:44:43,260 --> 00:44:46,300
it's such a mix of feeling bad for him and

584
00:44:47,180 --> 00:44:49,980
Also sometimes sort of joining in the disdain

585
00:44:50,860 --> 00:44:52,860
Gorst has a lot of self-pity

586
00:44:52,860 --> 00:45:00,780
You know, he's sort of very much aware. He self describes himself a lot as not being very attractive having an embarrassing high-pitched voice

587
00:45:01,260 --> 00:45:09,020
He a lot of his sections are focused on the fact that he's been put here at this part of the war as effectively punishment

588
00:45:09,340 --> 00:45:11,660
He used to be the king's bodyguard

589
00:45:12,220 --> 00:45:13,660
But he fucked up

590
00:45:13,660 --> 00:45:19,660
Not for the his fault and now he's sent here to basically write letters home to his majesty

591
00:45:19,660 --> 00:45:25,260
About how great the war's going on. Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that but you're right

592
00:45:25,260 --> 00:45:30,620
He's there as the king's observer. He's not even supposed to fight which is interesting because you know

593
00:45:30,620 --> 00:45:35,580
He's the person who kills the most in the whole book, but he's not even ordered to do it

594
00:45:35,580 --> 00:45:41,580
He's just doing it because he wants to and there's a great amount of humour in the extremely eloquent and

595
00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:46,940
Positive way in which he writes the letters to the king and then a absolutely hideous

596
00:45:46,940 --> 00:45:53,740
Absolutely hideous slap of reality as it cuts to his narration and it's like the rain was dismal

597
00:45:53,740 --> 00:45:55,900
It turned all of the roads to slime

598
00:45:56,540 --> 00:45:58,700
Things Crawl along at a pitiful pace

599
00:45:59,420 --> 00:46:03,900
we spoke in Best Served Cold that a great thing that joe apricot me does is

600
00:46:04,620 --> 00:46:06,380
Have the characters

601
00:46:06,380 --> 00:46:12,300
Think something and then immediately say something in complete contradiction and Gorst exemplifies this

602
00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:16,860
His internal monologue and what he has says to the other characters never matches up

603
00:46:17,420 --> 00:46:23,980
Particularly talking to like the superior generals. He'll always be respectful and then his brain would just be like you absolute foppish twit

604
00:46:24,380 --> 00:46:26,620
Yeah, it's venomous and it's hateful

605
00:46:27,020 --> 00:46:32,300
And when it comes to Finree in particular the one like woman perspective in the book

606
00:46:32,620 --> 00:46:35,660
Before we even figure out she's going to be like a perspective character

607
00:46:35,660 --> 00:46:43,260
And the inside he's full of like loathsome attraction to her like he's he's he's he's deeply infatuated with her

608
00:46:43,580 --> 00:46:46,860
in like a really ugly hideous way and

609
00:46:47,340 --> 00:46:50,780
You know you're often um, and the great thing about this is that you know

610
00:46:50,780 --> 00:46:56,060
It's you can be like, oh this is horrible, but you never have the impression that like he's gonna do anything bad

611
00:46:56,540 --> 00:47:01,120
But mostly because he's just like a pitiful coward and he can't say anything

612
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:06,340
And one time he like does at the end of the book. It's just embarrassing

613
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,120
And it just takes away everything about him that you could ever possibly respect

614
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,360
I think this is great talking on the tropes of sort of the warrior hero

615
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:22,960
Because it's like saying what happens when you take this sort of I I’m just thinking comparing to like Druss the Legend

616
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:29,360
And what makes a character like Druss truly in, uh, David Gemmel's legend

617
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,400
And related stress Drunai book series

618
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,400
Why since I’ve read like we don't love him because he's a great fighter

619
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:43,200
Like that's often quite I think confused. It's similar. I would say a bit with uh, like a Conan character. I’ve always got to reference Conan

620
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:49,200
You don't have to read and really enjoy them because they're this incredible fighter

621
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,760
You might just enjoy the descriptions of the fight scenes

622
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:56,880
But it's not that they're a great fight that makes them enjoyable. It's that quite often they're quite charismatic

623
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,260
Yeah, it's the confidence and it's the bravura

624
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,400
And the fact that they carry that then into lots of aspects of their life

625
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,360
It's the fact that when Druss is like

626
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,480
He's not that Druss is confident. He's going to be able to kill a lot of people

627
00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:14,480
It's the fact that he stands on the battlements and says don't worry lads

628
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,400
We'll take this fight because it's the good fight that needs fighting

629
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,440
You're like, yeah, mate. I'll follow you

630
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:28,800
The Gorst lacks so much confidence that he believes that other characters are contemptuous of him

631
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,280
They dislike him. They find him ugly

632
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:33,920
None of these characters ever say this

633
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:40,560
No one ever makes fun of him for having a high-pitched voice even his enemies like who are the most

634
00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:48,640
macho man group ever who are like oozing testosterone every time they like every time they draw breath

635
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,800
None of them make fun of him for having a high-pitched voice or being ugly

636
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:58,560
And Black Dow says hey, you're such a good fighter and killer. You should join our side

637
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,400
And it's like yeah, he would fit in so well over there

638
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,960
But he just gets in his own way all the time because he's so

639
00:49:07,740 --> 00:49:13,200
Simpering and pathetic and I know that one sounds like now we're being mean to the character

640
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,360
Which he deserves

641
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:20,000
Yes, I think that's a very good lie to mark. He is not nice to people. There's a bit at the end

642
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,640
He goes looking for Finree's husband

643
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,680
And because he's hoping that he turns up dead and when he's the one to find him

644
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:35,360
He like is immediately start strangling him to death until he's caught in which he just checks to pretend. He's checking his pulse

645
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:42,320
Yeah, he's loathsome and pathetic, but there's also this really interesting part of that very scene, which is after he walks away

646
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:47,900
Dejected like he hears someone calling for help and he picks up like the log

647
00:49:48,780 --> 00:49:56,020
That's crushing this guy with his prodigious strength and he rescues this guy. The guy's like, oh bless you. You good man

648
00:49:57,060 --> 00:50:02,660
And he feels nothing because he doesn't care and he's being heroic in so many ways

649
00:50:03,140 --> 00:50:07,380
But he's so despicable on the inside, but it just doesn't matter

650
00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:12,420
He's incapable of actually being like good or true

651
00:50:13,220 --> 00:50:17,380
Another fun thing just while we're still on Gorst is that Gorst has a great relationship

652
00:50:17,940 --> 00:50:20,020
with the character of Caul Shivers

653
00:50:20,660 --> 00:50:25,460
Because Gorst is one of those a great example. She's talked in Best Served Cold the character of the cripple

654
00:50:25,780 --> 00:50:30,580
Who's a very it's a completely minor background character in that book, but he's one of the main POVs

655
00:50:31,140 --> 00:50:33,940
in the original trilogy and Gorst is

656
00:50:33,940 --> 00:50:37,940
Is one of the minor background characters in Best Served Cold?

657
00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:42,420
And you're waiting for the moment where he and Caul Shivers are going to run into each other because

658
00:50:42,900 --> 00:50:46,180
If you read Best Served Cold, you're like, oh, oh, this is that guy

659
00:50:46,260 --> 00:50:54,100
He's going to knock down the stairs and like got like humiliated and he's the fall guy for call and Monza's plan

660
00:50:54,660 --> 00:50:57,140
And you're like are they going to run into each other?

661
00:50:57,220 --> 00:51:01,220
And if he does is he going to recognize him and they do run into each other?

662
00:51:01,220 --> 00:51:08,020
And he does start to recognize him and he specifically starts to recognize him at a point where they're at like a peace treaty

663
00:51:08,740 --> 00:51:11,620
So it's like this could literally reignite the war

664
00:51:12,180 --> 00:51:17,860
If he can't keep it together and when he like goes up and he grabs him and he shoves over and outside the way

665
00:51:17,940 --> 00:51:20,340
He's like have you ever been to stereo?

666
00:51:20,660 --> 00:51:27,860
There's this great moment because call is a guy who could absolutely knowing that peace is on the line could say

667
00:51:27,860 --> 00:51:30,260
Oh, yeah, it was you

668
00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:38,260
Fuck you and then completely start the war. So there's a serious move to tension before call goes

669
00:51:39,060 --> 00:51:41,940
Nah, never been there and that's the end of it

670
00:51:42,260 --> 00:51:48,500
And Gorst just gets shrugged off and shoved to the side and people even forget that he said a word

671
00:51:49,220 --> 00:51:54,580
It is a great anticlimactic ending for this character. I think it suits that kind of

672
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,200
pathetic undertone

673
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,200
just perfectly but

674
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:06,240
Let's leave Gorst. Let's leave The Union for a bit and let's spend some more time on the other side with the Northmen

675
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:12,640
Because there are two other key northern POV's that we have let's touch on the maybe lesser one first

676
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,000
And then we'll go for the guy who really brings us to the end game

677
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,560
So the lesser one is the actual first character we ever kind of talk to in this book

678
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:26,400
Now I’m a little bit off on pronunciations. This Curnden Crow… Crow… Craw…

679
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:28,720
Craw

680
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:30,800
Because you've got something in your Craw

681
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:33,040
as I do

682
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,320
Very regularly. Yes, whenever you try to say a difficult fancy name

683
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,440
Craw is in many respects the exact opposite end of the spectrum to Beck

684
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:49,120
He is the very old soldier. He's one of those heroes that people tell stories about he's a named man

685
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,120
Which basically means you have a cool nickname

686
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:57,920
Which you've earned I would disagree wholeheartedly. Uh, he's not like the opposite of Beck

687
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,360
He's like the path the path more chosen

688
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:06,160
He's what Beck could end up being because the important thing to know about Craw

689
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:11,360
Even though he is like a great fighter and he's a good leader and he's seen it all and he's like

690
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,120
He knows he has the good connections to other war chiefs

691
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,680
Uh, he's terrified of fighting

692
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:23,280
Like he's completely terrified of it and he's never gotten over his fear of being in battle

693
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:28,880
And he's in the first battle of the book even before the armies arrive. He's in the first skirmish

694
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:36,960
So is it more the same? So it's not the opposite end as in a different character. He's just Beck at the opposite end of life

695
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:42,160
Is exactly like it could get back comes to a point where he could choose

696
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:49,200
What sort of man am I gonna be and he could choose to try and be like his father and therefore end up being Craw

697
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:56,080
Someone who's been in a ton of battles and has a lot of experience but is still terrified of fighting because he'll never get over it

698
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:04,080
Or he could take the path that he ends up choosing and being you know, a good man because Craw is always saying

699
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,160
We have to do the right thing. You have to do the right thing. That's his big belief

700
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:15,520
He's basically saying, you know, like he's lawful neutral. He's like we have to follow the code. We have to follow the rules

701
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,320
Even when it's not the good thing to do

702
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:20,480
It's the right thing

703
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:27,840
Beck chooses to do the good thing. He breaks like the code the rules. This very much plays into the fact that Craw is

704
00:54:28,380 --> 00:54:35,920
Fundamentally, I think a bit of a coward because the reason why it's like we should follow the code is because he doesn't ever want to take a step

705
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:39,600
For what he believes in really against anyone else

706
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,720
Now that's yeah, I think there's definitely some truth about Duncan

707
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:48,880
I like the way you phrased that to tie in his cowardice to his like willingness to follow the rules

708
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:53,840
It's not the what I took away from the book, but I do like that approach

709
00:54:54,400 --> 00:55:00,880
Well, I just I say that because I also think it ties into his ending and I know we're jumping head over heels to get there

710
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:07,840
But Craw's ending is that he keeps saying throughout this book I’m old and I feel it in my bones and my knees aren't what they used to be

711
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:14,400
But at the end of the book he has a similar situation with to Beck with the fact that he could retire

712
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:23,040
He could take his pot of gold and maybe he could go farming or whatever, but he doesn't he stays in the life exactly and specifically for

713
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:28,160
Yeah throughout this book he's like the tropey character of the book

714
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:33,200
He's like the tropey character of oh I’m just one day away from retirement

715
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,760
He's sending out these huge death flags being like I could just get out of the game

716
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,320
And so you're expecting him to be the guy who dies in the climax

717
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:47,040
And there's a really pivotal moment where it looks like yeah, he's dead

718
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:48,960
when like

719
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:54,080
Basically, the best fighter the northerners have is killed in a fight with Gorst

720
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:58,640
Not by Gorst because that would be too satisfying but just by a random

721
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:04,720
Happenstance where a spear just so happened to stick him because the idiot didn't wear any armour because he thought he was going to be

722
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,800
He was destined to live forever

723
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,680
Gorst turns his attention to Craw because he's defending Iron Dow

724
00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:14,720
sorry Black Dow

725
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,400
and

726
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:17,680
Who

727
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:24,800
Interfere? Who saves the day right before he's cut down one day away from retirement? It's Beck

728
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:27,680
Good old Beck

729
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,880
I was genuinely thinking if Beck dies for this man

730
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:33,520
I will not be happy

731
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,120
but but but just to think like I I really like the fact he didn't because

732
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:45,360
in addition to the uh, the fantasy people have of like, you know being made whole of growing up of maturing through battle

733
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:52,080
There's also an obsession with dying. Well, it's all tied up in the fantasy of warfare

734
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:58,640
I’m using fantasy with a lowercase f there, but it is still important to this book with the capital f

735
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:07,360
If Beck died to redeem himself that would be just as toxic as if he became like a good person

736
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,560
And a better man by learning how to kill people and Beck doesn't do either

737
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,080
He doesn't die for Craw and isn't even kill for him

738
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:22,320
He gets one lucky hit where he flaps Gorst with the with the flash of his blade

739
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:26,240
He knocks him stone cold and he gets blood on the sword

740
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,840
But that's it. He doesn't draw blood. It's the only

741
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:36,800
Swing he makes that entire fight that entire climactic battle which decides the end of the war

742
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:42,080
So he going back to Craw like I’m really glad he's there. He gives a great perspective

743
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:47,280
He ties into a lot of other characters, but he still he's not the main guy

744
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,720
There's just one more bloke. Is he in the First Law books?

745
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:52,480
cool

746
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,320
Yeah

747
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,320
I yes he is in the original

748
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,440
Uh trilogy and I’ll be honest. I think he's very much the same kind of bloke there

749
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,840
I'll retire soon. Just you I’m nearly out guys

750
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:12,160
But yes Duncan before I like dragged you back to the battle you talked about the end of his story

751
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:16,320
Um and about how fact he does retire it defies our expectations

752
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,840
More than once because he does give up the game

753
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:22,960
Yes, he does give it up

754
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,360
kinder not quite

755
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,560
I really enjoy the fact that how likely he seems to fall back into it. Do you

756
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,760
Remember the exact scene where he's just like

757
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,480
Oh, okay

758
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,480
Oh, yeah for sure

759
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:43,440
Uh, so this is a scene again another scene I saw coming from a mile away, but it's brilliant. I loved it so much

760
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,240
He's retired to do as he's always said he's gonna do he's become a carpenter

761
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:53,040
He's moved to a little village where they've taken him in because it's good to have a named man around

762
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:55,280
and

763
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:57,280
He sucks at being a carpenter

764
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:02,240
Like and of course he has he was like he was a carpenter for like two minutes when he was a boy

765
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,600
And now it's I don't 50 years later

766
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:11,840
And he wants to try and take it up again, and he thinks he's gonna be just as good at it as he is at fighting

767
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,800
And he answers no he sucks at it

768
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,120
and then

769
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,920
Who should show up at his door but a character called Hard Bread and Hard Bread?

770
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:25,920
Is the character who he first runs into right at the start

771
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:33,280
One of the few northmen who works for The Union and he's the first person who has a who has any kind of fight

772
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,160
in the book it's between

773
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:38,800
craw's dozen and

774
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:47,200
And Hard Bread's dozen, but he shows up at his door his former enemy who's always been very friendly with and he says so um

775
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,080
The war's over

776
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,680
Uh, but another one's starting and would you like to come with us and join it?

777
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:55,680
And he says no no no no no

778
00:59:55,760 --> 01:00:00,640
I’ve retired. This is what I’ve always wanted and heartbreak goes. Okay, but

779
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:07,040
We kind of really want you to be there, but okay, if not, that's fine and he walks away

780
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:12,000
And it's not even a full page later of him looking around

781
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:16,800
His own little hut which he's built himself and a promise of the future that he's always wanted

782
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:21,600
When he grabs his cloak and his sword and he runs out the door saying Hard Bread

783
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:26,000
Wait for me. I always want I love to know because I haven't seen this character

784
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:31,760
I haven't read more books kind of going forward. What does Craw get like, it's like he's chasing that heroic death

785
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:34,800
Or he's just terrified to

786
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,360
Be normal and have

787
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,160
To put up with like the actual basic things

788
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:46,160
I mean, that's close to it, but I really think the fact of the matter is that he just doesn't know how to change

789
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,520
He spent his whole life doing one thing

790
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,560
And now he wants to try and be something else and it's impossible

791
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:57,760
He's caught in a pattern of behaviour that he doesn't know how to break just like that character

792
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,240
I’ve never read anything about the Bloody Nine

793
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:07,040
He's stuck. He only knows how to be one thing and like it or not scared as he is

794
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:09,360
He's hooked on it

795
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:15,280
I think the only thing that upsets me is the idea that if Craw ends up just ruining other people's lives

796
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:19,520
At least he doesn't seem to be pulling other

797
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:23,600
Like young men like if Beck died, I’ll be like, I hate you Craw

798
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:28,800
I know you you didn't necessarily do that or be responsible, but I will hate you for it

799
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,040
so if he just goes

800
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:33,600
I mean, he's gonna kill people that's kind of the job, but

801
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,040
Just doesn't hurt too many nice characters in the way

802
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:38,880
fine

803
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:40,880
Have your soldier's life

804
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,520
I

805
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,520
I

806
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:49,200
Don't know enough about these books in general to make any kind of prediction

807
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,080
I guess I’d be surprised if I saw Craw in a future book

808
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:56,320
You know

809
01:01:56,320 --> 01:02:01,200
I don't know anything about Red Country. Really? I don't know how much it crosses over with the rest

810
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:06,480
I know that I want to read it and I want to read a bad because apparently it has like the best

811
01:02:06,860 --> 01:02:09,200
duel ever and like

812
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:13,200
The Best Served Cold has the best duel ever in it. So

813
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:20,080
That's really hard to imagine a better one than the ones we saw in that but hey ho, I guess it's in there

814
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:26,080
So yeah, I can't imagine he could show up again. Right? I think he has to just vanish

815
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:32,080
He went back to war and eventually it will kill him. I genuinely can't imagine

816
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,000
That's the end of his story. I can't see him having a Caul Shivers style

817
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:42,420
He'll turn around later because he had the arc. He had the arc and then we've got a lovely twist on it

818
01:02:43,060 --> 01:02:45,940
And his arc is that he can't change so he can't

819
01:02:46,580 --> 01:02:49,460
Change subsequently. That's the whole point of his character

820
01:02:49,940 --> 01:02:53,700
Talking about characters that can't change though. Geordie the final POV

821
01:02:54,980 --> 01:03:00,100
And the one that I think is really is one the best to sort of mark the actual

822
01:03:00,900 --> 01:03:04,340
I don't know world movements the progression of

823
01:03:04,340 --> 01:03:09,380
The overall story of First Law and that is the story of Prince Calder

824
01:03:10,420 --> 01:03:12,980
Now… Long live Black Calder!

825
01:03:14,180 --> 01:03:18,660
A little background Prince Calder. He is in the first trilogy. He is the

826
01:03:19,380 --> 01:03:23,700
younger son of the old king of the north a guy called Bethod

827
01:03:24,500 --> 01:03:25,700
who

828
01:03:25,700 --> 01:03:34,680
Sadly tragically passed away in a terrible accident involving a circle the Bloody Nine and some axes

829
01:03:37,460 --> 01:03:41,700
Following that Black Dow became king because Black Dow

830
01:03:42,740 --> 01:03:46,180
Also had a sword and an axe to hand at the time

831
01:03:47,460 --> 01:03:50,100
And Prince Calder and his older brother scale

832
01:03:50,740 --> 01:03:52,740
Just to drop his he exists as well

833
01:03:52,740 --> 01:03:58,900
I’ve been kept alive and around mostly because there's enough people who like him

834
01:03:59,460 --> 01:04:01,460
For him not to be dead yet

835
01:04:01,460 --> 01:04:04,100
Just about just about just about

836
01:04:05,300 --> 01:04:13,060
called as an interesting character and his parts of the story are probably the most intricate and precise and

837
01:04:13,060 --> 01:04:15,300
Probably the closest a book has to a main character

838
01:04:16,180 --> 01:04:17,380
I'd agree

839
01:04:17,380 --> 01:04:20,660
I agree. I think that's why him and Craw I'd say are the main guys

840
01:04:20,660 --> 01:04:23,700
I don't think it's an unfair amount of page time for being that

841
01:04:24,340 --> 01:04:28,500
But his narrative I'd say is certainly I’m going to say the most complex

842
01:04:28,980 --> 01:04:33,940
And the most driven not by his own personal character arc, but by the events

843
01:04:34,660 --> 01:04:41,300
Yes, he's got his fingers in so many pies and he cares a lot about like and he's smart enough to know

844
01:04:41,860 --> 01:04:47,380
What's going on in different camps and what different people want what they're trying to achieve

845
01:04:47,380 --> 01:04:51,780
That he gets to have a lot of time spent thinking much like tunny

846
01:04:51,780 --> 01:04:56,740
Oh, you know what? We never actually said in the spoiler freeze the spoilerish section

847
01:04:57,460 --> 01:05:05,300
What happened with tunny and what my great prediction was and my great prediction was that tunny would never see battle and he doesn't

848
01:05:06,020 --> 01:05:08,020
He spent four days

849
01:05:08,020 --> 01:05:10,020
standing in the edge of a swamp

850
01:05:10,020 --> 01:05:12,020
watching cold aside

851
01:05:12,020 --> 01:05:13,620
And doesn't do anything

852
01:05:13,620 --> 01:05:19,380
But I love about that is the fact that he stands there watching not doing anything is actually super important

853
01:05:19,380 --> 01:05:26,100
It's like a world changing event them standing there because sometimes that's literally all you need in warfare

854
01:05:26,100 --> 01:05:28,580
It's just to put soldiers in the right place

855
01:05:29,540 --> 01:05:32,260
Obviously betrayed beautifully for the maps of the book

856
01:05:32,740 --> 01:05:36,980
But what you're alluding to is they're in this sort of position where the other side know

857
01:05:37,460 --> 01:05:40,660
That if they kind of charge or make a certain push

858
01:05:40,660 --> 01:05:44,980
They'll expose their flank so they can't so they're stuck

859
01:05:45,940 --> 01:05:48,660
And they're so stuck that that um

860
01:05:49,700 --> 01:05:57,060
Calder has to just sit there and wait as his brother's side is massacred like completely overwhelmed

861
01:05:57,060 --> 01:06:03,380
And his brother is cut down and he can't do anything. He has to call for help from an ally an ally

862
01:06:04,500 --> 01:06:07,220
Read a man who hates him and wants him dead

863
01:06:07,220 --> 01:06:10,260
Most of the characters in Calder's story

864
01:06:10,260 --> 01:06:14,580
So just to give a little bit more effect of where his because I actually feel like I need to explain this one more

865
01:06:14,980 --> 01:06:21,460
Calder starts this story in bed with a beautiful wife who I believe he married before his dad died

866
01:06:21,460 --> 01:06:24,980
So he did very well in this marriage because he got married to make some airs

867
01:06:24,980 --> 01:06:30,660
He was a promising match and then he fell from grace, but he already had the beautiful and powerful wife

868
01:06:32,020 --> 01:06:34,260
And Calder just wants to sit here drinking water

869
01:06:34,260 --> 01:06:38,820
And Calder just wants to sit here drink wine and have sex with his beautiful wife

870
01:06:38,820 --> 01:06:41,060
But he is summoned to the battlefield by Black Dow

871
01:06:41,060 --> 01:06:48,420
The strangest thing about this the truly strangest thing about this is that this appears to be the first happily married couple

872
01:06:48,740 --> 01:06:51,700
In in either of the Joe Abercrombie books I’ve read so far

873
01:06:52,660 --> 01:06:55,620
I think you're probably I’m just I’m just looking for my mind

874
01:06:57,220 --> 01:06:58,820
Yes

875
01:06:58,820 --> 01:07:03,140
Maybe one other but you wouldn't have met them. They're in the First Law trilogy

876
01:07:03,140 --> 01:07:10,180
But yeah, like Calder has something to lose and much like a lot of the other people in this book. He's not a fighter

877
01:07:11,060 --> 01:07:16,180
But people want him to be one there's a lot of expectations on his shoulder to be like his father

878
01:07:16,180 --> 01:07:21,780
To be like his brother to be like all the other men in the north and be like a true warrior

879
01:07:21,780 --> 01:07:25,300
People keep saying sometimes you have to fight

880
01:07:26,180 --> 01:07:29,540
And it's so nice to see a character who just really wants to prove them all wrong

881
01:07:29,540 --> 01:07:35,860
And has unlike a character like Beck he has a level of agency

882
01:07:36,340 --> 01:07:40,820
He's high enough up that pecking order to try and bring that about yeah

883
01:07:41,140 --> 01:07:46,500
And what Calder really wants besides to stay alive and go back to his beautiful wife is um

884
01:07:47,220 --> 01:07:49,220
For Black Dow not to kill him

885
01:07:49,620 --> 01:07:52,420
And for Black Dow to be dead so he can be king

886
01:07:53,540 --> 01:07:56,500
Simple, easy, easy peasy. He has the right

887
01:07:56,500 --> 01:08:02,580
But not the power not enough people like him. Well people like him, but they don't respect him

888
01:08:02,580 --> 01:08:04,580
You know, he doesn't have

889
01:08:04,820 --> 01:08:06,820
the bones as they say in the north

890
01:08:07,860 --> 01:08:11,220
And what we kind of get is a lot of this kind of

891
01:08:11,860 --> 01:08:14,820
Slight political movements around the battlefield

892
01:08:15,700 --> 01:08:17,700
He's trying to look for opportunities

893
01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:20,500
To obviously advance himself

894
01:08:20,500 --> 01:08:24,660
And to hopefully see Black Dow day and I love that. I think there's a little bit where he's kind of just hoping

895
01:08:24,660 --> 01:08:28,020
He's like maybe someone else is just gonna kill him

896
01:08:29,140 --> 01:08:30,980
There's a battle going on

897
01:08:30,980 --> 01:08:32,980
fingers crossed guys

898
01:08:33,380 --> 01:08:35,460
What I like, but what kind of drive his spot?

899
01:08:35,940 --> 01:08:43,060
What I like about Calder's story is that much like with someone like Beck you're feeling the push and pull of traditional narrative

900
01:08:43,620 --> 01:08:45,620
And you're waiting for him in

901
01:08:46,020 --> 01:08:48,420
Slightly crass terms to nut up

902
01:08:49,060 --> 01:08:51,060
You know, he's saying I don't want to fight

903
01:08:51,060 --> 01:08:56,020
I want to do anything I can to avoid fighting and you're waiting to you're being like yeah

904
01:08:56,020 --> 01:08:59,940
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah grow up get out your sword and start killing people

905
01:09:00,740 --> 01:09:07,540
Because that's what you expect from a traditional fantasy story. You expect the wimp to draw his sword, you know the this

906
01:09:08,660 --> 01:09:10,260
Freudian

907
01:09:10,260 --> 01:09:14,740
penis symbol like get your manhood out and start swinging it around and

908
01:09:16,180 --> 01:09:19,860
displays of your expectations a lot because at a certain point

909
01:09:19,860 --> 01:09:21,860
He does fight

910
01:09:21,860 --> 01:09:26,500
But he doesn't draw his own sword himself. He just comes up with a good plan

911
01:09:27,060 --> 01:09:34,100
And that feels great because you finally get into a position where people can start to respect him and like follow his leadership

912
01:09:34,100 --> 01:09:38,900
He like yes, he's stepping forward now. Just start killing people. Come on and then he doesn't

913
01:09:39,540 --> 01:09:46,100
Even when he's like being attacked head-on by the enemy after his great like military victory

914
01:09:46,100 --> 01:09:50,820
He has to rely on like his adversaries to help him out. He's calling out for help! Help! Help!

915
01:09:52,260 --> 01:09:56,500
But I think that's so kind of great about him is he kind of represents

916
01:09:57,380 --> 01:09:59,380
I’m probably like the good king

917
01:09:59,700 --> 01:10:01,140
That's not the case

918
01:10:01,140 --> 01:10:04,740
But the sort of bit of the military side of things they're like, well, yeah

919
01:10:04,740 --> 01:10:08,500
Actually, the leader should be good at the strategy and the tactics element

920
01:10:09,060 --> 01:10:13,300
He's sort of why was it matter if he's actually good at drawing his sword and getting in the fray?

921
01:10:13,300 --> 01:10:16,740
Yeah, this is a weird thing. I forget which one it is. It's like maybe the second

922
01:10:17,380 --> 01:10:21,700
Song of Ice and Fire books where Tyrion is obviously really smart

923
01:10:22,260 --> 01:10:26,100
And he's a good leader and he can't the only reason he can't be king is that one

924
01:10:26,100 --> 01:10:32,500
Yeah, he doesn't have the birthright but two like people won't accept him because he's a dwarf and they won't

925
01:10:32,980 --> 01:10:34,980
Listen to him as a proper authority

926
01:10:35,700 --> 01:10:41,460
But when the battle comes to king's landing, he still gets an axe and he like fights and kills people

927
01:10:41,460 --> 01:10:48,260
And that feels weird because one it doesn't feel like something he'd actually be able to do and two

928
01:10:49,380 --> 01:10:55,460
It doesn't really suit his character. Like that's not what he's about. He's not a fighter. He's a thinker

929
01:10:56,660 --> 01:10:59,460
Having main characters show a lot of cowardice

930
01:11:00,100 --> 01:11:05,860
Cowardice is actually really quite unique and I found it very refreshing in both Calder and Beck

931
01:11:06,740 --> 01:11:09,380
The other time so props there, Joe

932
01:11:09,380 --> 01:11:14,100
Yes, absolutely love Calder's character again long live Black Calder

933
01:11:15,060 --> 01:11:18,180
And the reason why I’m calling him Black Calder is

934
01:11:19,140 --> 01:11:22,980
He gets in the fighting circle with Black Dow

935
01:11:24,020 --> 01:11:30,500
Through a few shenanigans. He's basically accused of attempting to portray Black Dow. She did. He's like

936
01:11:30,500 --> 01:11:33,300
I’m not actually as guilty as you think but I am a little

937
01:11:34,020 --> 01:11:35,220
Here I am

938
01:11:35,220 --> 01:11:41,220
And let's have a moment to talk about Black Dow because he is an important character

939
01:11:42,260 --> 01:11:45,940
Okay, he's not a POV, but you're right. He is a huge influence on the story

940
01:11:45,940 --> 01:11:53,540
In fact, he's sort of reason this narrative is happening the fact that I say he is that's actually very apologetic to colonial powers

941
01:11:54,020 --> 01:11:57,380
Sorry, the local kings didn't just roll over

942
01:11:58,740 --> 01:12:02,180
How bad of them, but he won't sit down at the table

943
01:12:03,060 --> 01:12:04,980
So he's gonna fight

944
01:12:04,980 --> 01:12:06,980
Black Dow

945
01:12:07,220 --> 01:12:11,700
It's a bit hard. I’m quite coloured because I read First Law so I saw him in the book

946
01:12:11,940 --> 01:12:15,940
So I actually think Geordie if you tell me your impression and then maybe I’ll give you a little bit of background

947
01:12:16,180 --> 01:12:19,940
And we'll see how that kind of marries up. Sure Black Dow is a character who's outwardly

948
01:12:20,500 --> 01:12:23,220
Literally sort of hyping up everything about himself to be like the

949
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:25,380
uber masculine

950
01:12:25,380 --> 01:12:31,540
Northern warrior king so like he swears and he swaggers and like he's good at fighting

951
01:12:31,540 --> 01:12:34,580
And like he commands respect through fear

952
01:12:35,060 --> 01:12:42,820
But actually deep down like you can tell this guy's crafty. He's smart. He's savvy and he's actually merciful like really merciful

953
01:12:43,300 --> 01:12:49,700
Like he doesn't kill Calder even though he is a political threat because basically he likes him and he doesn't see him as

954
01:12:49,860 --> 01:12:54,500
Like he doesn't want to kill him and he releases hostages who he doesn't have to release

955
01:12:54,900 --> 01:12:56,900
And like he wants to sue for peace

956
01:12:56,900 --> 01:13:04,260
But he can't do it without seeming weak to the other northern lords and so he has to be really careful about how he explores that

957
01:13:05,060 --> 01:13:09,300
So yeah, that's my impression. He's basically brutal and scary

958
01:13:09,860 --> 01:13:12,100
But a good serviceable king for the north

959
01:13:12,980 --> 01:13:16,340
And the only way he's a weak king is where he feels restrained

960
01:13:16,900 --> 01:13:17,780
by

961
01:13:17,780 --> 01:13:19,780
the population's expectations

962
01:13:20,020 --> 01:13:22,020
So how is he in the first trilogy?

963
01:13:22,900 --> 01:13:25,540
first trilogy Black Down is essentially

964
01:13:25,540 --> 01:13:27,540
just kind of one of the side characters

965
01:13:28,100 --> 01:13:30,100
to

966
01:13:30,100 --> 01:13:36,500
I’m going to say Logen Nine Fingers gang which includes another character you meet in this book the dogman. Yeah, I figured

967
01:13:36,980 --> 01:13:38,980
because he talks about being like

968
01:13:39,140 --> 01:13:42,580
Like the friend of Logen of the black the blade nine

969
01:13:42,580 --> 01:13:46,980
He says like hey, did you get know that the dogman's coming and he's bringing a Bloody Nine

970
01:13:47,700 --> 01:13:49,700
Exactly. They're all kind of part of a gang

971
01:13:50,340 --> 01:13:52,820
And but the thing is but I thought it's such like

972
01:13:52,820 --> 01:13:58,580
One of the more side characters he's slightly I would describe as the strategist

973
01:13:59,460 --> 01:14:01,860
just barely and his

974
01:14:02,500 --> 01:14:07,220
Honestly, the only real impact he has is that in the last trilogy

975
01:14:07,860 --> 01:14:10,100
the Bloody Nine does kill Bethod

976
01:14:11,140 --> 01:14:13,460
And it's like I’m going to be king of the north

977
01:14:13,700 --> 01:14:18,580
But first I’m going to do the right thing and go to the south union lands

978
01:14:18,580 --> 01:14:25,540
To deal with the actual big bad guy of this book trilogy. Um Black Dow do you mind just like you know being the steward while I’m away

979
01:14:26,420 --> 01:14:27,940
Cheers, mate

980
01:14:27,940 --> 01:14:32,100
And so there's a scene near the very end of the book where the Bloody Nine comes back

981
01:14:32,820 --> 01:14:36,260
And it's one the clothes. It's the final scene. We see the Bloody Nine in the trilogy

982
01:14:37,060 --> 01:14:39,060
And he comes back thinking

983
01:14:39,620 --> 01:14:41,620
Oh, I’m coming back to my kingdom

984
01:14:41,860 --> 01:14:46,900
And he walks in and Black Dow is effectively on the throne and it's like actually

985
01:14:46,900 --> 01:14:49,700
Mate, um, I had some chats with people while you were away

986
01:14:50,180 --> 01:14:53,780
And we actually don't want you to be the king

987
01:14:54,580 --> 01:14:59,540
I know you killed the last one. That's how it tends to work. But this narrative works better for everyone

988
01:15:01,140 --> 01:15:03,540
And that's like literally and then that scene closes

989
01:15:04,260 --> 01:15:08,180
Really? So you don't see for sure whether he kills the Bloody Nine?

990
01:15:09,460 --> 01:15:11,860
You do not know for sure if the Bloody Nine dies

991
01:15:13,300 --> 01:15:15,300
Your phrasing is very interesting

992
01:15:15,300 --> 01:15:20,340
I’m I’m disappointed by the fact that you told me The Blade Itself is um, not as good as the rest

993
01:15:20,340 --> 01:15:24,820
Uh, you have told me before that the opinion is basically that every book gets a little bit better

994
01:15:25,380 --> 01:15:28,420
So I sort of feel a little bit spoiled by the fact that I’ve like

995
01:15:28,900 --> 01:15:30,260
you know

996
01:15:30,260 --> 01:15:36,100
I’ve watched I’ve read like the best parts of the series so far

997
01:15:36,420 --> 01:15:42,100
And now I’m gonna have to go back to square one to sort of get to figure out who the fuck Logen Nine Fingers actually is

998
01:15:42,100 --> 01:15:44,420
The thing is I said that mostly because

999
01:15:45,380 --> 01:15:47,540
And I would say this to all listeners

1000
01:15:48,900 --> 01:15:52,020
If you're the type of person who's in for a penny in for a pound

1001
01:15:52,180 --> 01:15:58,100
And you know that if you read the first book in the trilogy like you know, you'll read the whole trilogy you'll do it

1002
01:15:58,580 --> 01:16:00,740
Then I think there's no problem tying The Blade Itself

1003
01:16:01,220 --> 01:16:05,460
Due to the nature I’m not gonna like with the format of this uh lovely show we do

1004
01:16:05,940 --> 01:16:07,940
Where a book's got to be pretty bayan

1005
01:16:07,940 --> 01:16:12,980
To make sure that we keep reading in a series I wanted to hit off with a bit more of a home run

1006
01:16:13,620 --> 01:16:17,460
And I also wanted to test whether or not the Best Served Cold was a good standalone

1007
01:16:18,020 --> 01:16:23,220
So if you're a listener and you don't know if you're going to you know commit to a trilogy kind of regardless

1008
01:16:23,540 --> 01:16:27,460
I still recommend Best Served Cold as a perfect starting point

1009
01:16:28,260 --> 01:16:29,780
but

1010
01:16:29,780 --> 01:16:31,780
The First Law trilogy

1011
01:16:32,420 --> 01:16:34,420
I would probably rank above

1012
01:16:34,420 --> 01:16:37,940
The standalone experiences but just that very first book

1013
01:16:38,740 --> 01:16:41,460
I personally feel although it has amazing character work

1014
01:16:42,020 --> 01:16:44,020
Is a bit slow

1015
01:16:45,140 --> 01:16:48,180
Interesting there's a lot of time setting up the board

1016
01:16:49,060 --> 01:16:53,860
Subsequent books are amazing. I in fact before they are hanged maybe

1017
01:16:55,540 --> 01:17:00,660
No, I prefer Best Served Cold and The Heroes actually but a good book

1018
01:17:00,660 --> 01:17:07,060
It's the best of the trilogy. They're all good. Come on. The bar's high, but they are not as good as these two standalone. I'll admit

1019
01:17:08,020 --> 01:17:09,380
Okay

1020
01:17:09,380 --> 01:17:11,380
We had a bit of a digression there

1021
01:17:11,700 --> 01:17:14,900
Calder gets into the circle with Black Dow. He's

1022
01:17:16,340 --> 01:17:22,100
He can't win like it's just it's ridiculous you as a reader like well

1023
01:17:22,100 --> 01:17:26,900
you know anything could happen like he could slip in the mud and fall on his sword and

1024
01:17:26,900 --> 01:17:31,940
That doesn't happen like Calder does live but it's not as like

1025
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:34,260
fairy tale

1026
01:17:34,260 --> 01:17:39,700
Or ironic enough to be like oh and by some mere happenstance of fate he wins

1027
01:17:41,460 --> 01:17:44,900
Black Dow just so happens to insult Caul Shivers

1028
01:17:45,540 --> 01:17:48,040
So that's actually wouldn't actually be out of the way for Joe Abercrombie

1029
01:17:48,740 --> 01:17:53,300
Because in Best Served Cold there is actually a scene where a statue just falls

1030
01:17:53,300 --> 01:17:58,180
Over and it's like got a sword on it and impales one the villains. Yeah, but they were gonna win that fight

1031
01:17:58,180 --> 01:18:00,820
We can have a little bit of hilarious irony in here

1032
01:18:01,620 --> 01:18:03,620
He just so happens

1033
01:18:03,940 --> 01:18:08,740
To insult Caul Shivers a little too much and call just steps up behind him

1034
01:18:09,300 --> 01:18:11,300
Cracks him in the head and kills him

1035
01:18:12,100 --> 01:18:16,180
I think it's fantastic that Caul Shivers isn't a POV in this book

1036
01:18:16,740 --> 01:18:19,540
Yeah, he kind of has the most pivotal moment

1037
01:18:19,540 --> 01:18:24,900
Yeah, and when you think about like the string of events that leads up to this which is essentially like a

1038
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:27,940
Groundbreaking historical moment

1039
01:18:28,660 --> 01:18:34,820
The end of like a dynasty basically probably a pretty short-lived one, but nonetheless an important political faction

1040
01:18:35,460 --> 01:18:37,460
and how this all ties back to like

1041
01:18:38,180 --> 01:18:40,180
To all those back to what?

1042
01:18:40,260 --> 01:18:44,900
Monza is up to in the previous book and just so happen to fuck up

1043
01:18:44,900 --> 01:18:52,260
One guy in particular and letting him live at the end so he can go out and just wreak havoc wherever he goes

1044
01:18:53,220 --> 01:18:54,420
man

1045
01:18:54,420 --> 01:19:00,180
And yeah from this point on Caul Shivers is like the third man in charge

1046
01:19:00,500 --> 01:19:03,380
You know, he has cemented himself. He makes

1047
01:19:03,940 --> 01:19:10,260
Calder king. It's a little more complicated now, but we're not going to get into what Stranger Come Knocking because we haven't even introduced

1048
01:19:10,260 --> 01:19:18,500
But there's some interesting politics happening behind the scene which ties this whole book together in like a really fascinating and depressing way

1049
01:19:19,220 --> 01:19:24,820
We don't have time to get into it. It's good read the book. Come on, but yeah, Caul Shivers is the kingmaker

1050
01:19:25,940 --> 01:19:30,580
That just what dole is alluding to that interesting kind of political movement. That is the point

1051
01:19:31,140 --> 01:19:34,820
And it's great, but it's almost not what makes it enjoyable

1052
01:19:34,820 --> 01:19:39,380
So that's why I’m happy to leave that to the background. Yeah, we get this lovely moment

1053
01:19:39,380 --> 01:19:44,420
And I kind of really enjoy this scene because there's kind of this moment where all the northmen are standing there

1054
01:19:44,900 --> 01:19:49,860
And it's like they all just kind of well at least one guy definitely set for us is like, okay

1055
01:19:50,820 --> 01:19:58,100
It's Black Calder now because let's face it. That's the clearing this way forward where we don't start killing each other

1056
01:19:58,100 --> 01:20:04,660
And everyone's like, yeah, let's just not have a it's the path of least resistance and it completely goes against all their principles and all the rules

1057
01:20:05,060 --> 01:20:08,020
Because by all rights, this means Shivers should be in charge

1058
01:20:08,260 --> 01:20:11,620
But Stranger Come Knocking has said Calder, and he does have a good claim

1059
01:20:12,020 --> 01:20:20,260
And yeah, it's this path of least resistance. It's the power doesn't flow from the crown or in this case like the shiny necklace

1060
01:20:20,740 --> 01:20:22,740
It flows from the crown

1061
01:20:22,740 --> 01:20:29,140
Like the people's willingness to be governed the powerful people who are underneath the king say

1062
01:20:29,540 --> 01:20:36,580
Yeah, let's just pick this guy and immediately after this like the epilogue of the book is about a secession crisis where like

1063
01:20:36,980 --> 01:20:43,540
Gold or an iron head or immediately butting heads again and that's led to another war which Calder needs to put down

1064
01:20:43,860 --> 01:20:46,180
And like they're referring to coldest king

1065
01:20:46,180 --> 01:20:52,820
Even though something really interesting happens right after this which is like probably one of my favourite parts of the whole book

1066
01:20:53,860 --> 01:20:55,860
I want to dive into that moment

1067
01:20:56,100 --> 01:21:01,540
So something that you haven't talked about is Calder's brother Calder has an older brother called scale

1068
01:21:02,180 --> 01:21:06,020
Who is everything that Calder isn't he's the traditional

1069
01:21:06,820 --> 01:21:09,620
Sword wielding hero relatively speaking

1070
01:21:09,620 --> 01:21:17,300
Um for the man, I love the fact that scale loves his brother and it's actually I think one of the main things that keeps Calder quite likeable in this book

1071
01:21:17,540 --> 01:21:19,860
Is that he clearly has quite a bit of brotherly love

1072
01:21:20,500 --> 01:21:22,500
disagree he has someone he

1073
01:21:23,540 --> 01:21:26,740
I think there's an extent of brotherly love between them

1074
01:21:27,380 --> 01:21:28,420
but

1075
01:21:28,420 --> 01:21:33,540
In his like, you know how we keep saying characters in these books say we're brothers

1076
01:21:33,540 --> 01:21:39,460
In his in a monologue. He keeps saying if only I could get rid of him, you know, he's standing in my way

1077
01:21:39,780 --> 01:21:43,060
Once I’m rid of him, then I’ll be you know, then I’ll be able to do what I want

1078
01:21:43,860 --> 01:21:50,340
Well, yes, but he changes his mind sort of in the last moments. Well, I think you're getting

1079
01:21:50,820 --> 01:21:54,900
Yes, I am getting to that but I want to really hone in the fact that I don't think he does change his mind

1080
01:21:55,140 --> 01:21:57,940
And I think he does change his mind in the last moments

1081
01:21:57,940 --> 01:22:03,060
I think you're getting yes, I am getting to that but I want to really hone in the fact that I don't think he does change his mind

1082
01:22:03,380 --> 01:22:07,940
No, I and I felt the need I had to say bring up like his inner monologue about how

1083
01:22:08,420 --> 01:22:12,980
There's this element of friction where there isn't brotherly love because that's what Caul Shivers

1084
01:22:13,300 --> 01:22:19,380
The agent of chaos hones in on saying, you know your brother we thought he was dead. He's actually alive

1085
01:22:19,860 --> 01:22:22,260
No one except you knows he's still alive

1086
01:22:23,300 --> 01:22:25,300
I could kill him for you

1087
01:22:25,540 --> 01:22:27,540
Then you became

1088
01:22:27,540 --> 01:22:29,540
And no one will be able to argue otherwise

1089
01:22:31,700 --> 01:22:34,500
And what happens next is that there's this huge

1090
01:22:35,700 --> 01:22:36,900
period

1091
01:22:36,900 --> 01:22:39,540
In his head where he's greeting his brother and he's

1092
01:22:40,260 --> 01:22:46,980
Looking after him and he's in a state, you know, his brother is damaged and broken and he looks terrible

1093
01:22:47,060 --> 01:22:49,300
He's missing a hand was chopped off by Gorst

1094
01:22:50,340 --> 01:22:52,340
And as he's walking him back

1095
01:22:52,340 --> 01:23:00,100
You as a reader going don't do it. Don't kill your brother be a good person for once just for once change

1096
01:23:02,580 --> 01:23:07,700
And then the most shocking thing happens not the most shocking thing that's still back

1097
01:23:08,420 --> 01:23:13,300
But the second most shocking thing is that not only does he not tell?

1098
01:23:14,180 --> 01:23:16,180
Shivers to kill his brother

1099
01:23:16,180 --> 01:23:21,620
He gives him the chain he makes his brother king instead of him

1100
01:23:22,740 --> 01:23:26,260
All of this book is characters making not all the characters

1101
01:23:26,820 --> 01:23:30,500
About half the characters making the wrong decisions or not changing

1102
01:23:31,220 --> 01:23:36,580
And it's so nice for one of them. This is I think almost the moment which makes you think oh you're like the main character

1103
01:23:37,060 --> 01:23:39,220
Because he does the one good deed

1104
01:23:39,220 --> 01:23:47,140
And then the second one is the one who's saying I have to do the right thing and then chooses to go back to war

1105
01:23:47,620 --> 01:23:54,420
Calder does the right thing who's always done the wrong thing up to this point. It's always been craven and sneaky and treacherous

1106
01:23:54,820 --> 01:23:56,820
He's the one who does the right thing

1107
01:23:58,100 --> 01:23:59,540
now

1108
01:23:59,540 --> 01:24:02,420
It's not 100 the right thing. I like said I said

1109
01:24:02,420 --> 01:24:10,180
A little caveat there is definitely an element where Calder is going better. He be on the throne and me the power behind because

1110
01:24:11,140 --> 01:24:13,380
He who wears the metaphorical crown?

1111
01:24:14,020 --> 01:24:16,020
More likely to get his head taken off

1112
01:24:16,340 --> 01:24:19,860
That's definitely an element of it. Yes, it's true

1113
01:24:20,740 --> 01:24:22,740
but nonetheless

1114
01:24:22,740 --> 01:24:26,660
It's also brotherly love like after this he helped like he helps him into a saddle

1115
01:24:26,660 --> 01:24:33,540
he starts to look after him the way that scale used to look after Calder when they were boys and

1116
01:24:33,940 --> 01:24:38,660
This is just such a nice sweet ending for such a dark book

1117
01:24:39,380 --> 01:24:41,380
Oh the warm and fuzzies

1118
01:24:41,620 --> 01:24:42,580
and

1119
01:24:42,580 --> 01:24:44,580
Everyone else who's alive

1120
01:24:44,660 --> 01:24:46,660
Just gets to go home

1121
01:24:47,300 --> 01:24:50,980
Gorst gets like returned to his previous position this whole time

1122
01:24:50,980 --> 01:24:54,180
He's been fighting and killing a bunch of people to like earn enough renown

1123
01:24:54,180 --> 01:24:58,820
And then when the letter arrives that like says I want you back in your previous position

1124
01:24:58,820 --> 01:25:03,700
I forgive you for your trespasses. He realizes that it was sent before the battle had even begun

1125
01:25:04,420 --> 01:25:05,780
which is

1126
01:25:05,780 --> 01:25:12,820
Hysterical and he goes to Finree and he says like I’ve been returned to my position and she's like wow, that's great

1127
01:25:13,220 --> 01:25:15,220
we've been promoted to be like

1128
01:25:15,220 --> 01:25:17,220
lords and ladies like we've

1129
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:20,580
stratospherically risen above our previous station and

1130
01:25:20,580 --> 01:25:24,260
And so he has to sort of he's grinning at me like oh great

1131
01:25:24,660 --> 01:25:28,740
Everything that I was made me special is way less special than you

1132
01:25:29,380 --> 01:25:33,700
And this whole time he's like he says he's been in love with Finree

1133
01:25:33,780 --> 01:25:36,900
He hasn't he's been like infatuated and obsessed with her but whatever

1134
01:25:37,620 --> 01:25:41,860
And he finally reaches his breaking point where he expresses that he loves war

1135
01:25:41,940 --> 01:25:45,620
He goes on this big rant about how great it is and about it

1136
01:25:45,620 --> 01:25:48,660
it's the only place where people can respect him where he has power

1137
01:25:48,660 --> 01:25:49,700
and

1138
01:25:49,700 --> 01:25:57,220
She's sickened by him and she takes him to task and she points out all of the horrible suffering all around him

1139
01:25:57,220 --> 01:26:04,100
which she's born witness to and what she's finally come to understand how dreadful it is and it's so

1140
01:26:04,500 --> 01:26:09,940
Satisfying to be like wow the one time you opened your mouth and you said what was really in your head

1141
01:26:09,940 --> 01:26:14,500
And people can see what you really are. It's so satisfying

1142
01:26:14,500 --> 01:26:21,700
It's the great bit of justice and in a story where like the overarching theme is a complete lack of

1143
01:26:22,340 --> 01:26:27,300
Universal comic justice. It's nice to see it play out on at least character levels

1144
01:26:28,180 --> 01:26:32,420
Yeah, this isn't a book where the good get what they deserve and the bad

1145
01:26:33,060 --> 01:26:35,060
Also get what they deserve

1146
01:26:35,780 --> 01:26:38,340
That never happens period full stop

1147
01:26:38,340 --> 01:26:45,860
No one leaves this book better than where they started it except I guess Calder, but he's also worse off in some ways

1148
01:26:46,900 --> 01:26:54,980
There was a strong sense of dark chaotic fatalism to Best Served Cold where no matter what characters tried to do

1149
01:26:54,980 --> 01:26:56,980
Nothing they ever tried to accomplish

1150
01:26:57,540 --> 01:27:02,900
Really came it really came to pass and there was an almost air of delightful fatalism

1151
01:27:02,900 --> 01:27:11,460
Where you could throw up your hands and say what are you gonna do? This time? I had such higher expectations for the characters in this book

1152
01:27:11,460 --> 01:27:19,060
I really felt like they were gonna change and gonna accomplish something and so that sense of dim dissatisfaction

1153
01:27:19,620 --> 01:27:21,620
with the exception of like Craw's

1154
01:27:22,580 --> 01:27:27,700
Decision at the end to go running off. That's the same dark fatalism as Best Served Cold. That was familiar

1155
01:27:28,340 --> 01:27:30,340
for the most part though

1156
01:27:30,340 --> 01:27:33,380
You know like you're left feeling like man

1157
01:27:34,020 --> 01:27:41,540
These characters have just been hurt and made worse in every way and nothing of any true consequence was accomplished in this story

1158
01:27:42,580 --> 01:27:49,140
And that has to lead us on to our final topic of is this a good story about war?

1159
01:27:49,140 --> 01:27:51,140
You know, is it a good?

1160
01:27:51,620 --> 01:27:55,620
Anti-war story and is such a thing even possible?

1161
01:27:56,740 --> 01:27:57,940
Oh god, okay

1162
01:27:57,940 --> 01:28:02,900
Going to the big guns. So is this a good story about war?

1163
01:28:03,940 --> 01:28:09,380
See, I really don't know how to answer that. I can tell you this was a good story and I was entertained

1164
01:28:09,860 --> 01:28:11,860
But was it a good anti-war story?

1165
01:28:12,580 --> 01:28:14,180
I personally

1166
01:28:14,180 --> 01:28:16,180
I felt reading and you know

1167
01:28:16,180 --> 01:28:20,340
Context of the fantasy genre and there's a natural disconnect there

1168
01:28:21,220 --> 01:28:25,860
I think it certainly did a good job of giving me almost another lens

1169
01:28:25,860 --> 01:28:27,860
to look at

1170
01:28:27,940 --> 01:28:30,420
other more traditional heroic fantasy tales

1171
01:28:31,220 --> 01:28:34,820
I think it generally did I think now when I read other books

1172
01:28:35,460 --> 01:28:41,380
Particularly a good example is when we read legend. Maybe this did give me a little bit of a lens into those moments where

1173
01:28:42,340 --> 01:28:44,340
You know, what was the conflict for?

1174
01:28:44,900 --> 01:28:46,900
The other characters that were dying

1175
01:28:47,380 --> 01:28:53,060
But to be honest, I’ve never wanted to go to war but I do enjoy reading a lot of literature which features it heavily so

1176
01:28:53,060 --> 01:28:55,060
So what does that make me?

1177
01:28:55,700 --> 01:29:01,220
Yeah, and it makes sense so much of our language around what makes an adventure

1178
01:29:01,380 --> 01:29:04,260
hinges around the idea of conflict and war

1179
01:29:05,220 --> 01:29:07,220
You know, that's why

1180
01:29:07,220 --> 01:29:13,060
Battles and guns are a feature of so many video games because it's a really direct form of conflict

1181
01:29:13,380 --> 01:29:15,540
It's a space which people want to explore

1182
01:29:16,340 --> 01:29:21,540
Call of Duty is a first-person shooter because people want to think what if I were a first-person shooter?

1183
01:29:21,540 --> 01:29:23,860
People want to think what if I was under fire?

1184
01:29:24,660 --> 01:29:26,660
Would I be able to handle myself?

1185
01:29:26,820 --> 01:29:29,780
And the answer we expect to get out of those stories is yes

1186
01:29:30,340 --> 01:29:34,580
I would be able to handle myself and I would change and I'd become a better man

1187
01:29:34,900 --> 01:29:38,020
And that would allow me to live out my power fantasy

1188
01:29:38,900 --> 01:29:40,900
and the same exists for

1189
01:29:41,540 --> 01:29:44,180
First for stories where the characters die at the end

1190
01:29:44,180 --> 01:29:52,660
So in something like Legend where so many of the characters die in the name of what might be a hopeless cause that's heroic too

1191
01:29:53,460 --> 01:29:56,740
That's a power fantasy too. It's a fantasy. That's also about

1192
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:05,000
A grievance, you know, I I’m suffering so much my personal life and I can represent that in a way in which these characters are suffering

1193
01:30:05,300 --> 01:30:07,300
for a righteous cause

1194
01:30:07,700 --> 01:30:12,020
All of those books all of those stories those games as well. They're all

1195
01:30:12,020 --> 01:30:14,520
all pro-war stories because

1196
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:18,680
Any story which can make you think yeah

1197
01:30:19,480 --> 01:30:21,880
Being a soldier would be great

1198
01:30:22,440 --> 01:30:24,440
Even if it would suck

1199
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:32,600
Stories where people come home in coffins covered in American flags or union jacks

1200
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:35,560
Despite all evidence

1201
01:30:36,360 --> 01:30:38,360
Those are pro-war stories, too

1202
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:46,120
There's a reason why when Saving Private Ryan came out a story which a lot of people consider to be anti-war

1203
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:50,040
like the actual department of defence was like

1204
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:57,400
Commemorated it, you know, they gave it like honours. They said yes. This is a good movie about war

1205
01:30:58,040 --> 01:31:01,000
Because it shows this enormous reverence

1206
01:31:01,560 --> 01:31:02,520
to

1207
01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:05,560
The people who went off to fight in a particular war

1208
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:09,080
arguably the only good war world war two

1209
01:31:10,280 --> 01:31:12,280
And even though it's full of

1210
01:31:12,760 --> 01:31:17,320
Like soldiers being cowards and dying pointlessly and suddenly

1211
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:20,280
Yeah, that's a pro-war movie, too

1212
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:26,840
People go to war because they see you Saving Private Ryan and they think yeah

1213
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:34,200
That works for me people go to war because they see full metal jacket and for some reason they just don't get what they're doing

1214
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,200
They just don't get what it's about

1215
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:39,560
one of the things that I feel is really strong in

1216
01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:42,280
those bits of media and something which

1217
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:49,100
I don't think you could do in a book format because ultimately it would be very unsatisfying as a piece of entertainment

1218
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:52,540
Which you know this literature is entertainment

1219
01:31:53,400 --> 01:31:57,400
It's the idea the fact that when a character dies heroically in battle

1220
01:31:58,200 --> 01:32:01,720
We always see beyond it. We see the characters showing them reverence

1221
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:08,040
We see the fact that the victory was ultimately attained. We see that it was all for a good cause in the end imagine

1222
01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:12,440
Watching that and then when a character saying private Ryan

1223
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:19,560
When that one guy gets shot because he's trying to deliver a message. It just cut to black, but that's it he said

1224
01:32:20,440 --> 01:32:22,440
That's who we were following

1225
01:32:22,760 --> 01:32:30,600
Yeah, or whatever story where like nothing was gained like you die and you fight heroically for a cause and then you lose

1226
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:32,600
Like we don't see that often

1227
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:34,760
like

1228
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:38,360
Where not even like oh it was all a hopeless cause

1229
01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:44,120
Where it's like well what really mattered was what the politicians were talking about behind the scene

1230
01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:49,560
Which is kind of what happens in this book like the land gets divvied up union gains more ground

1231
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:51,640
Anyway, even though they lost the war

1232
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:55,880
The question is this a good anti-war story?

1233
01:32:55,880 --> 01:33:02,520
And I think the answer is still no for all the reasons I’ve listed like even though it says war is terrifying

1234
01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:05,240
It won't make you more of a man

1235
01:33:05,240 --> 01:33:08,760
If you can draw any kind of excitement from that if it makes you want to

1236
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:12,120
swish us an imaginary sword in the air

1237
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:17,000
No, I don't think it succeeds as an anti-war story

1238
01:33:17,240 --> 01:33:24,520
I really don't think you can make an anti-war story unless you genuinely ridicule the idea of war in of itself

1239
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:26,520
like a

1240
01:33:26,520 --> 01:33:29,560
Dr. Strangelove or a JoJo Rabbit

1241
01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:35,160
That's the sort of thing. I think actually has to you have to make to make a properly anti-war story

1242
01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:37,720
I think one thing that some of these

1243
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:42,760
What really could come home anti-war story is probably if you went hard on the angle that

1244
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:45,400
Killing isn't

1245
01:33:45,480 --> 01:33:47,240
good

1246
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:50,360
I think that's really no I think

1247
01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:56,600
I think it's not enough. I mean, it's not enough to say like oh those are real people with genuine lies

1248
01:33:56,680 --> 01:34:00,440
Like that's what the section where they people swap back and forth between

1249
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:03,320
You know between all that it doesn't matter

1250
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:09,960
Like it doesn't that doesn't matter people know that like oh those are real people on the other side

1251
01:34:10,840 --> 01:34:16,120
It what matters is that people still respect the institution of war people still like

1252
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:19,820
uniforms and guns and swords

1253
01:34:20,380 --> 01:34:25,020
It's only when you have a story and I think you come close to with Beck where it's like

1254
01:34:26,380 --> 01:34:28,140
choosing peace

1255
01:34:28,140 --> 01:34:34,620
Choosing to like live a good life is actually more admirable than the weakness of choosing war

1256
01:34:35,500 --> 01:34:39,020
But you could come close to telling like an actually anti-war story

1257
01:34:39,740 --> 01:34:44,060
Well, I hope one day Geordie we might actually read a book that fully nails that

1258
01:34:44,060 --> 01:34:46,060
as for The Heroes

1259
01:34:46,060 --> 01:34:48,060
I would say

1260
01:34:48,700 --> 01:34:50,700
I’m not gonna say I disagree with you

1261
01:34:50,700 --> 01:34:55,900
Because there is definitely a bit of this book that is exciting particularly in

1262
01:34:57,180 --> 01:34:58,380
the

1263
01:34:58,380 --> 01:34:59,900
the circle, you know when

1264
01:34:59,900 --> 01:35:05,820
Cold is having his duel in the scenes when they're charging up the hill that I am just like oh isn't that thrilling?

1265
01:35:06,140 --> 01:35:09,820
Yes, of course and Duncan I want to make something clear just because this

1266
01:35:09,820 --> 01:35:14,220
Book doesn't succeed in its goal of being an anti-war book in my opinion

1267
01:35:14,540 --> 01:35:20,060
Doesn't mean it's a bad book or even that there's anything wrong with reading books that are pro-war

1268
01:35:20,860 --> 01:35:26,300
Like I enjoyed reading red storm rising and I described that to my girlfriend as NATO poor

1269
01:35:28,460 --> 01:35:32,700
Yeah, they're fun there's a reason people read these books they play these video games

1270
01:35:32,700 --> 01:35:35,820
I play violent video games as well because they're sick

1271
01:35:35,820 --> 01:35:41,840
It's fine. Just don't be susceptible to propaganda like me who it's impossible to propagandize

1272
01:35:43,660 --> 01:35:48,940
I on the other hand are very easy to propagandize and have fallen for all of it in my country

1273
01:35:49,900 --> 01:35:56,460
I like to play the war games where you the strategy was the RTS. I love directing my soldiers just

1274
01:35:57,100 --> 01:35:58,780
such fun

1275
01:35:58,780 --> 01:36:00,780
Get those carefully charges, right?

1276
01:36:00,940 --> 01:36:02,940
Duncan, that's all I’ve got to say

1277
01:36:02,940 --> 01:36:05,340
I love the love this book. It was great

1278
01:36:05,980 --> 01:36:11,900
People should read it even if you typically don't like fantasy. It is dark and it is gritty and it is gory

1279
01:36:12,540 --> 01:36:17,980
But not as gory as the previous book probably more accessible to be honest safe from all the

1280
01:36:18,780 --> 01:36:23,900
Historical politics read Best Served Cold because it slaps, read this one next because it also slaps

1281
01:36:24,380 --> 01:36:26,380
And once you've read both those books

1282
01:36:26,700 --> 01:36:29,660
Why don't you read Red Country? 

1283
01:36:29,660 --> 01:36:35,260
Next book in this sort of standalone midquel trilogy thing people say it's really good

1284
01:36:36,460 --> 01:36:39,180
But it's not up to me when we read that one

1285
01:36:40,140 --> 01:36:44,460
No, it's not it feels really good to not have

1286
01:36:44,940 --> 01:36:50,620
The Heroes lurking behind me anymore because I wanted to read it as soon as you finish Best Served Cold

1287
01:36:50,940 --> 01:36:56,620
And I didn't want to jump in and do an entire series again to only then do another entire series

1288
01:36:56,620 --> 01:37:01,740
And then although I didn't know it was going to happen do an entire series of Star Wars books

1289
01:37:01,740 --> 01:37:07,180
That would have been like nine of the how many books do we do a year 24?

1290
01:37:08,060 --> 01:37:10,060
21

1291
01:37:10,540 --> 01:37:13,020
That doesn't make sense. How do we only do 21 books a year?

1292
01:37:13,580 --> 01:37:18,780
There's 52 books a year and we do a podcast episode every two weeks. We do that's 12 months

1293
01:37:19,980 --> 01:37:21,980
That's 24 books

1294
01:37:22,860 --> 01:37:24,860
No, but there's 52 books a year

1295
01:37:24,860 --> 01:37:31,980
No, but there's 52 weeks. Okay. I’m scared don't get what are we reading next time? There's 26 books. I can't do maths

1296
01:37:32,140 --> 01:37:35,580
I’m an engineer don't get… You're an engineer! What do you mean you can't do maths?!

1297
01:37:36,780 --> 01:37:39,900
I thought there was for 42 weeks a year

1298
01:37:42,940 --> 01:37:49,760
Anyway next month we are entering fully into the spooky month of October

1299
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:53,680
And we will be chopping and changing things a little bit

1300
01:37:54,560 --> 01:38:01,120
Obviously we will maintain our long-standing tradition of doing berserk. Don't you worry. It's not even a pick

1301
01:38:01,120 --> 01:38:02,720
We're just doing it

1302
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:04,720
but I feel like

1303
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:10,240
We also need to do a scary book. We need to get into the horror fields. Yes

1304
01:38:11,200 --> 01:38:16,720
And Geordie when I was thinking about what scary book I would want to read I cast my mind back

1305
01:38:16,720 --> 01:38:21,920
and I thought about a promise that we made long ago

1306
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:26,880
Uh, do we say we were going to read like a particular scary book?

1307
01:38:27,680 --> 01:38:32,720
We did Geordie and we didn't just say it to each other. We said it to the author themselves

1308
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:35,520
Hailey Piper

1309
01:38:36,080 --> 01:38:39,840
When we interviewed them on this podcast

1310
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:44,640
We had just finished reading The Worm and His Kings and we loved it

1311
01:38:44,640 --> 01:38:49,760
We said it was amazing. We did we said it to their face. It's incredible. Absolutely loved it

1312
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:53,760
And it has a sequel in fact has two sequels now

1313
01:38:54,480 --> 01:38:58,400
It does we were a little behind the time. We said we would read that one before

1314
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:02,800
The previous one came out. It was a couple of months ago. I think it wasn't the next one is

1315
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:11,440
Even the Worm Will Turn, is that what it's called? That is correct. Release in 2023, Even the Worm Will Turn the sequel to

1316
01:39:11,440 --> 01:39:16,400
The Worm and His Kings and I believe the most recent book in the series is the Song of the Tyrant Worm

1317
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:19,680
This is cosmic horror

1318
01:39:20,320 --> 01:39:23,920
This is a powerful trans main character

1319
01:39:24,960 --> 01:39:32,080
And hopefully this will be just as brilliant as the first book in the series fingers crossed. That was a real unexpected one

1320
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:37,200
Just picked a book at random, which I heard one person talk about online

1321
01:39:37,200 --> 01:39:40,880
Turned out to be one of the best surprises that we'd had in the podcast so far

1322
01:39:41,200 --> 01:39:45,520
So whilst this one is not going to be a surprise. I’m really excited to see what it's like

1323
01:39:46,640 --> 01:39:50,960
Well, I suppose that's it then and then we'll just have to wait Geordie. We'll have to wait

1324
01:39:51,520 --> 01:39:55,280
For me to pick Red Country until then

1325
01:39:55,840 --> 01:40:03,040
I’ve been your host Geordie Bailey and I’ve been your other host Duncan Nicoll till next time I’ve already forgotten our fancy northern names

1326
01:40:03,040 --> 01:40:06,560
Uh, you are Black Tooth Geordie and this has been Merciless Duncan

1327
01:40:06,560 --> 01:40:32,560
Bye bye!