Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This Just Fantasy, the podcast where every other week two nerds get together to rate read and review
A fantasy novel. I’m your host, Black Tooth Geordie. And I’m your other host
Merciless Duncan. Oh
Those are our northern names
Yes, if and Geordie's already a pretty northern name. Duncan's a Scottish name, mate. It's
Not necessary, but here we are
rent embrace the spirit so
If you hadn't picked up so far we are reading we're jumping back into the oh
What do you even call it The Blade Itself?
The First Law series. What is it called? It's the First Law of course universe
It's very confusing. We've got the First Law trilogy and then they sort of just call the rest of the series
The First Law universe series doesn't have a cool name
Mmm, because this is the second this is the second book in the second series within the First Law
Chronicles, that's right by Joe Abercrombie
We started by reading the first book in the second series Best Served Cold earlier this year. It was a great time
now I
Have already read the original trilogy and I intentionally got Geordie not to read that first
Partly because I don't think The Blade Itself is that amazing or at least as amazing as the books that come afterwards and also
The marketing has always pushed that you can read the second series without reading the first one and I want to test it out on Geordie
And I think we definitely found that was pretty true in the first one
Like it was amusing in some ways because it took me a pretty good portion of a book
To realize that the Bloody Nine was Logen Nine Fingers. They were the same person
I didn't realize that at first and a character called the cripple who I thought was like just like a
Background character that people sometimes talked about. Oh, no, that's a main character. So that was funny
But I think it pretty much I did just like get to enjoy the book and I didn't need to do any homework beforehand
However Duncan, I really don't think that you could read this second book without having read
The one before it and also haven't said yet. We're reading for heroes the one that comes after Best Served Cold
But I have no idea how you were able to read this book before you read Best Served Cold Duncan
Yes, that's the point
I read The Heroes before I read Best Served Cold mostly because I knew that The Heroes were set in the bit of this universe
You know
It's called the north where the barbarians are fighting the colonialist powers of The Union who have continued trying to expand into their territory
And that was my favourite bit of the setting from the original trilogy. So I went right
I’m going straight in for The Heroes and I'll tell you now Geordie. I
Read it. Absolutely fine. Genuinely the bits that reference Best Served Cold meant nothing to me because I thought well
Yeah
This book would be harder to read if you hadn't read the original trilogy because so many of the characters in this book like Black
Dow. Bethod, the Dog Man, they're all heavily featured in that original trilogy
So how did you get on and I didn't have I didn't have any problem following the story
I wasn't sure to what extent certain characters were important like
Because they'd read Best Served Cold. I knew the Bloody Nine is a big deal
I’m like, okay
The fact these people are talking about having like killed for Bloody Nine or we've been on the same side as him
I guess here's the thing I said that and I’m like, oh is that a spoiler?
But the funny thing is that like I have no idea if it is because I think Black Down might just be lying about that
like I
That's the great thing about this book is people say so much bullshit
But it isn't true and I’m like, are you just making that up? Did that actually happen in the books or not?
I have no idea
I’m gonna tell you now for this point reading the universe. You're not meant to know that is actually very intentional on behalf of the author
So that's interesting. I’m glad I’m having the right experience the bits which I think that's like
Like cuz you read this book. Did you know who Caul Shivers was when you first read this book?
the character of course Shivers is a side character in the original trilogy and one the main characters in Best Served Cold and
reading this book before Best Served Cold I had no idea what had happened to this poor guy because when you leave this
What happened to you in the end of the original trilogy?
He kind of goes off with a bit of a hopeful smile and I’m gonna have a better life and then reading The Heroes
It's like he's missing an eye. He's heavily scars and he's like I’m having the worst time ever and I’m like, oh dear god
Things were bad
But I also didn't know that that happened on page because I didn't know the plot of Best Served Cold
I was like, maybe it was meant to happen off page and I'll also tell you this for nothing. I
Forgot between reading The Heroes and reading Best Served Cold
That Caul Shivers is in The Heroes like I genuinely read Best Served Cold completely
Later horribly scars and diminished
Well, that's good. It didn't ruin your experience of Best Served Cold then because you forgot the bit
I think is would be let down and this is just because I’ve read Best Served Cold and I can't imagine someone
Not having read Best Served Cold before this but the stuff with Gorst and his humiliation
Which happens is a really minor event in Best Served Cold
It becomes one of the main plot points of this book that one of our big
Our big heroes like has to redeem himself because of shit that happened in the previous book
and
You're supposed to be like, oh my god him and Caul Shivers the guy who just so happened to cause that downfall spoilers, Geordie
You're right, okay no spoilers yet
But they're on the same battlefield and you're waiting for them
to run into each other and for is he gonna realize that it's him and
It's really interesting how that plays out but
To begin with no spoilers and to begin with more
Duncan
Because we ask each other this every time
Have you been reading anything else?
No, this has been enough for me reading The Heroes has been an absolute experience
And it's literally all my time is dedicated to it. Yeah, and the same goes for me
I actually thought it wasn't going to be able to make it through because it is a chunky book
but I managed to buy a combination of reading both the physical book and the audiobook on Spotify and
It really was perfect because the book itself is way too long for the 15 hour long
15 hour limit
Spotify gives you to read a book for free
But because I also own the physical book I sort of just jumped back and forth between them based on where I was
So if I was in bed, I would read the book and if I was going to work
I would listen to the audiobook and I was like, okay, great
I’ve got the best of both worlds and you need to have the physical book
This is the first time I think in a whole podcast. I’m like you literally
Cannot get by without having a physical book because this one has something pretty unique to it
A lot of fantasy novels have maps at the front most of the time. They're pointless
This is the least pointless a map has ever been in a fantasy novel
That's right, Jordi. I even remember having to tell you about this. You were like, oh, what's the importance?
I was like no, it's so critical because this map it doesn't even show like a massive area. It's not a continent
It's the map of the very close-knit battlefield that this book
Almost entirely focuses on but what's really important is that throughout the book this map gets updated
For the reader as troops move about the battlefield and this is so important for the plot like Joe Abercrombie as
Well, literally you can see it
He is mapping it out for you and the whole focus of this fight is that he is mapping it out every step
If a guy's over there, he is never gonna have a conversation with the bloke standing over there
You know is beat by beat step by step hour by hour
mapped out yes and
More so like there's a really strong emphasis in this book on literally the strategies which characters are employing
It's a book about war
But it's not like a Saving Private Ryan book
It doesn't try and say war is bad by showing how gruesome it can be it shows that war is bad because it's tedious
and it's stupid and
so you get down to the minutia of
troops moving around on this little board and
Then sitting there and waiting for days on end
one of the characters in this book and now I guess we're going to get into characters is
Corporal Tunny and the great thing about Corporal Tunny is that he's the most experienced soldier in the entire book
He's only a corporal. He's not a general and he's not like a warchief like on the northern side
but what he is is
That he's just a guy who's been in the army for a really long time and will do whatever it takes to not have to fight
I
Love this character. I love the fact that we're going straight into like the structure of a light we pregnant
But like yeah, this we're gonna hit all the main POV characters and
We haven't even said if we really endorse the book do you endorse the book? Do you like this book? Oh, yeah
This is a great book. I don't know if it's as good as Best Served Cold
I think they're pretty I think the heights of this book are better than the heights of Best Served Cold
But it has a slightly slow ending and Best Served Cold had a great ending. So I think it's just edging it out
Absolutely fair enough. I feel agree with your assessment. I love this book. I
Really enjoy the individual characters that we see. I think it's message on war is beautifully delivered
But I think you're also right. It wasn't as consistently rip-roaring
Best Served Cold is excellent, it’s quite episodic. We go and have the always like mini adventures harkening back to those sort of short story
action sword and sorcery that I adore
this one
It plays out a little slower
It really gives you those laws and combat in a weird way. It kind of reminds me of like reading like Master and Commander
we have long stretches of book where it's kind of like a bit more chill and
then though that just makes the moments of
Actual heightened action just all the more intense
This is a book where for the most part aside from some really major characters
There is a strong feeling of fatality, you know, you really believe it when a fight starts
Okay people important characters are going to die
I’m gonna see it happen and it's not going to be retconned out of the way
Really actually what you can count on most of all is not that characters will die. It's just that characters will be miserable. I
Think that's a really solid outtake live or die. They're having a bad day
And I think that being just right anytime. I wanted to predict what would happen next in the story
I was just like what would make Gorst unhappy and I just decided that would happen and I was always correct
And what we see of this battle is as mentioned for those six key POV's throughout the book that we keep jumping between on
both sides of the conflict and
Then bringing that back to Tunny one of the minor POV's I’d actually say in terms of impacting events
But very good at giving you that probably the low
Lowliest soldiers outlook
Probably I think aside from random POVs we occupy. Yes
He's basically the lowest ranking dude like even a guy who starts off the story uh call no, no, no, sorry not Calder
Craw. Craw starts off and he seems like a pretty unimportant guy, but he ends up being super important by the end
so very true
Geordie actually before we jump back to Tunny, I know we're darting about like madman
I think I do need to just lay down this conflict a little bit more clearly and then we can jump between sides
fair enough
So The Heroes named after a sort of stone hinge kind structure on top of a hill on the north side
Of a river and approaching upon it. We have two parties the Northmen led by Black Dow the most recent king of the north
Not a very nice man. Not very well liked
And from the south we have union which is the traditional
Roman British colonial power
That's pushing up into these rights. You've got barbarity versus civilization
That's definitely one way to put it and this real conflict
I mean
I’m not even 100 sure why they're fighting each other
I think The Union have taken some land and the Northmen want it back. Some people just want to fight. It's just what you do
It's revealed later on. Yeah, absolutely
It's um, it's all about like The Union trying to seize like some important power
And and and ultimately but the absolute point is that it's basically pointless like the characters are doing this because
Just because of like almost
bureaucratic
Stagnation like they could achieve a lot if they were able to talk but
Black Dow can't just like acquiesce to any demand from union because it would make him look weak
So he has to fight even though he's not a great man
No one's actually fighting over the territory where they're meeting. It's not like they're fighting in order to have
The Heroes. The Heroes are pointless. It's just a well
Defendable location. So the northerners are like, okay, let's stand here and let them come to us
And throughout the book you've got these intelligent political characters who are saying, you know, warfare is the least
It's the least profitable is the least effective form of getting things done
But we're doing it anyway
Well, that's nicely summed up
back to Tunny. Tunny's great because Tunny realizes this
And Tunny wants to stay alive
He's long. He has no time for heroics
Exactly. He's left that that was for that's for the young
and the dead heroics
Tunny's here to technically fulfil his orders
and not die doing it
And what I like about this is that like recently I’ve started listening to a couple of like podcasts that aren't really about war
But just so happen to be run by guys that used to be in the U.S. Amy
And so occasionally they'll sprinkle in an anecdote about like being in Afghanistan or Iraq
And the overwhelming impression you get is that it's so much of the time spent there is just sitting in your hands
waiting not doing anything
Certainly not doing anything of real importance
And this book really captures especially in Tunny's sections that
It's very tedious stuff like
We won't get into proper spoilers on Tunny's section
But Tunny spends about four days standing in the same spot
Not doing anything
And that's not like a critique of the book and saying oh this book's boring because Tunny doesn't do anything
No, that's the point and it's interesting and it's funny
And it's observant. It's weirdly the closest thing to almost like a Terry Pratchett character
Maybe that's quite an out there thing to say about Joe Abercrombie writing
But this is no but you're right. The tone is somewhat different, of course, but like this is just like an
Sam Vimes with like a couple more
Scales on the jaded, you know the jaded radar and it's really enjoyable to read
But as you kind of said him kind of why we're addressing him first
That's because he stands a lot of time just sitting there making his observations and being amusing
I think he's very much good at reading
Making his observations and being amusing. I think he's very much good for the pacing of the book
It sort of brings levity from when you're reading maybe another section with some pretty intense emotional gut punches throughout
It's like oh, thank goodness. We're back with Tunny not to say though Georgia
I don't know if you felt this um on your first read
I remember feeling this quite a lot on my first read is I actually got quite a lot of anxiety
In the later parts of the book with Tunny plus like oh no, is he going to go really wrong for him at the last minute?
No, I completely predicted what was going to happen with Tunny like basically from like the third time he showed up
I can't explain that without getting into spoilers
So shall we hold off and get back to that later?
Absolutely. Let's move on to another
Really enjoyable character
Let's hop the fence and let's talk about the other side
so on the Northmen side we have
Some really interesting characters here there. So I said there's six overall kind of main POV characters
They're
Not quite evenly split
Are they? Oh, no, actually they are sorry being an idiot. Yes, they are evenly split
So on the Northmen side we have the young boy Beck who's just left home for the first time
Taking his father's sword of course
And he's off. He's
Off. He's just drunk on the stories that the old men tell around the fire of his father's heroics
And the honour and glory to be won on the battlefield
Yeah, and his father's great story of heroics is much like a lot of people getting killed by the Bloody Nine
Completely Geordie. I just want to like what is your impression of the Bloody Nine at this point? Like
How does he stand in your mind?
My impression is that and listen
I am you know, I love being in a position of only having heard about this character by reputation
Never having seen his own perspective never actually seeing anyone up close in first person say
I’m looking him dead in the face and this is what I think
And what I love about this is that I get the impression that he has this
extremely dark reputation which stands on top of probably a much more
Intricate and maybe a bit more soulful character the thing which we will keep
Mentioned he says a lot is you have to be realistic
And what I get the feeling of is that he's someone who does extremely dark
Of violent things because he feels like he has to like he's driven to do it
And he probably spends a lot of his time kind of feeling bad about that
He has to do it, but he can't break the pattern of behaviour which leads him to keep repeating these violent actions again and again and again
Honestly Geordie
That's a pretty fantastic summation of the character
Hooray
I understand fantasy novels. He's not Caul Shivers in this book where he's just I don't care
I enjoy being violent because I need some sense of power and control in my life
No, that's not the impression. I get of him at all. Although it's what other people might say about him
Oh
definitely
nonetheless
So nonetheless with Beck. Beck is a character who looks up to guys like the Bloody Nine who killed his dad
And he's like hell. Yeah, I’d like to be like that
He's drunk off the ideas of what it means to be a man
What it means to be a hero what it means to be a soldier and he's eager to sign up
When like the people come around to like draft him into the army
and his
story is
the least funny
it's
Probably the darkest and it's definitely the most on the nose in terms of being an anti-war book
This is the Saving Private Ryan bit. I’m inclined to agree. This is where it really rolls out to one character how
traumatizing
Combat can be there's quite a few characters in this book who are completely desensitized to violence
And if all your characters are like that
Then the book becomes desensitized to violence and you as the reader then become desensitized
To what the book's describing so I think it's great to have Beck there as a very to be honest
Relatable and probably my own perspective character on what's going on sure exactly
Beck should be the insight. He should be the person who you're you read this book and you're like
I kind of want to be you know, like one of the cool calm collective badass characters
Is most of whom we don't actually get like an internal monologue on with the exception being
Gorst who's the opposite of Beck in every way pretty much
But you're supposed to think damn. I probably would end up being Beck wouldn't I?
Beck's experiences of battle are harrowing and more than that. It's not even that it's like oh, it's dark
It's the fact that he's completely inert and powerless. He's incapable of taking any action once the sword starts swinging
He's so
paralyzed by fear
Again something the characters keep saying in this book is that war is either boring and tedious or
I can't know what exactly say like it's like arse-openingly scary
sounds about right
So yeah, he's paralyzed by fear like it's a physical reaction. He doesn't get you know fight he gets freeze
I mean, I think he's lucky. He doesn't get flight or his own side would probably have cut him down
If he had chosen flight, he probably would have ended up in a much better state by the end of the novel
I love what he happens in his later scenes after
You know what Duncan actually I think we kind of have to drop the spoiler thing because if we need to discuss
Like characters and why they work. I think we are going to have to um get past the
We can't just circle back and do everyone again after we cross over like the arbitrary spoiler barrier
I think that's very fair
So before we go any further
Duncan do you recommend this book?
Yes, obviously I recommend this book anyone who listened to our Best Served Cold episode probably would have been able to guess
I was going to have to recommend this book as well because it's fantastically written if you like Best Served Cold
You'll like The Heroes if you haven't read anything. I actually think you could read The Heroes
But you should at least read Best Served Cold. You don't need to read the first trilogy
It is not necessary
But The Heroes and with this one in particular
uh, it's
It works so well as a standalone and Duncan you can attest to that because you hadn't read
Best Served Cold before this and I haven't read any of uh
The Blade Itself not The Blade Itself, but
First Law trilogy
The First Law trilogy. I keep wanting to say Sword of Truth
very different vibes
So yes, it works as a standalone and so much so that if you don't even read fantasy novels and for some reason
You're listening to this podcast
If you don't really agree with you like sci-fi novels that have like action elements
You should read this if you like Tom Clancy novels or Bernard Cornwell novels or Patrick O’Brien novels
You should read this because it's the lowest fantasy we've ever read
period full stop
We don't even get any of those vampire super soldiers in this one. The nail you hit there with Bernard Cornwell
Like if you read Bernard Cornwell and you read his sacks and stories this may just be the best step from historical
Fiction into low fantasy you could ever take
No doubt in some ways it's more Bernard Cornwell than Bernard Cornwell stories like Bernard Cornwell loves talking about you know
A flanking manoeuvre and a shield wall, but like you can actually see the lines on the battlefield in this one
Anyway
We recommend, so back to Beck
Beck later to be known as red Beck. Hell. Yeah, I talked about emotional gut punch. So gut
I talked about emotional gut punches earlier Geordie. I think this is one of the first
Really good ones in the book
The first absolute moments of oh my god. I can't believe she went there joe
Yeah, how could you I when this when this moment happened in the book?
I was so shocked, but I immediately texted Duncan and I genuinely think
Of all the books we've done so far. Nothing has actually made me go
like this
That is high praise indeed Geordie. Tell our readers… readers? Listeners! This is some podcast audio thing
What happened?
So Beck is in his first battle
And all of the his comrades downstairs who are like teenagers and children by the way
Of being held up in a house then held up in a house. They're being murdered by union soldiers Beck
Cannot bring himself to intervene
He can't bring himself to go down and join the fight even though he's the biggest even though he's the strongest
He just stays upstairs
And then as he hears the fight come to an end he gets up and he hides in a closet
And then whilst he's hiding in this closet he hears the patting of feet as a soldier comes up from downstairs
And he sees through the crack a union sword and finally as he's mustering the you know
The fear that he needs to live so he can finally do the first action of the war he bursts
Action of the war he bursts out of the closet and he runs the guy through with his sword
And it's not a union soldier
It's one of his comrades the only one who was able to actually like stand his ground and win and kill four union soldiers
like an actual
Bonafide hero gets run through by his own side
And that character is the only person that Beck ever kills
This is heart-wrenching on so many levels
Like you've got Beck's own sense of guilt. You've got the sort of injustice of the character. He kills. I believe his name is wreck
refed
The fact that this guy
Should be the hero. He just made himself a legend
He was the young kid who took on you know outnumbered four to one
And then what I love about going after this scene is then Beck can't bring himself to tell people what happened
And just ends up he doesn't like take the glory. He just lets them pile it on him
And he's so ashamed like they give him a cool name red like red Beck, which is a sick name
Um because of all the blood he was covered in when they found him, which is his you know his pals blood and
He never uses the name Red Beck, like he can't bring himself to people ask his name and he says it's Beck
I’m Beck
and
For the rest of the story. He stays in a like
Numb state where he just lets people do whatever they want. He's piled into a fight at the end
But there are like a couple of things that
Really set him apart from the rest of the bit because what you're waiting for after this is you're going to see okay?
How does
Joe Abercrombie handle this character? He's been traumatized by war
At the moment where you expect he's finally gonna come into his own
You know I talked to you a couple of weeks back that I was reading
Red storm rising by Tom Clancy and there's this bit where this like
Dweeby weather guy for the air force like gets a knife and kills
four Russian soldiers
Um like in front of the marines and impresses them and that doesn't happen in this book. It's not that kind of book
Beck is forced back into future battles
But the only person he ever kills is
Uh the only person he ever kills is his friend
Even though he actually plays like a really pivotal moment
In what is probably like world history by his actions in a fight
He can never say
Yeah, I was a real hero. I was like a true warrior
Completely and I think it's really nice how his arc gets finished
In that he basically learns his lesson and he goes home at the end
Yeah, and he's the only person he does
I also think this is a really nice cruel irony because he went like he left home because he wanted to prove himself a man
He wanted to like grow up
And when he comes back, you're just like yeah, you did grow up. You lost all that childhood innocence
More than bad I’d say the reason why he's like grown up is that you're right
He's learned his lesson and it's not that war has made him into a man
Which is a disgusting idea that persists even into the modern day
It's the fact that he sees things however, you know
He realizes that like living on the farm with his mom and his little brothers like it's a good way to live
You know, it's like that's like
You know, that's just as much a man's role and it's a sane man's role
It's the opposite of like what you learn at the start of Best Served Cold when Monza her father's farm has burnt down
She says it's so much easier just to steal from other people
And for Beck it's not easier
He's given his reward money at the end and it's a lot of money and he says I can't take that
And he refuses it and no one else can understand why
I think that's also really nice just to shine a light back on that previous character of Monza
Because that was a character who killed so easily and made a point of oh, it's so easy just to
Physically to slit this man's throat
Very dark. I know and so it's nice to have a character that has
humanity
It wouldn't be defined as a
sociopath by modern definition
So, yeah, that's nice to see it is nice and rare and a Joe Abercrombie story
however, we have spent a lot of time talking about Beck the
Person who has like the second least amount of like page count in terms of you know
uh taking up the thing in a book, so I think let's speak about
The next one a little bit faster very well. Let's jump back over to The Union side and talk quickly about Finree
Yeah, so Finree is the sole female perspective in the story
Everyone else is either a man or a little boy
And so but Finree actually provides a really great different view of the battle because she's the one person
Who never gets involved in a battle of any kind or even like a marching manoeuvre of any kind?
Because she's the one person who never gets involved in a battle of any kind or even like a
She's supposed to have the political lens from The Union side
marching manoeuvre of any kind
She's the one who can see a larger picture. She understands why characters doing what they're doing
She's supposed to have the political lens from The Union side
She's the daughter of the lord marshal
She's the one who can see a larger picture. She understands why characters doing what they're doing
She's the daughter of the Lord Marshal
So she's out of battlefield because her father's there and he's overseeing the whole campaign
And because her husband is an officer. I can't remember what his exact rank is
It'll be at the front of the book. There's a huge glossary of characters at the front of the book
And I haven't needed a glossary this bad since I read the Silmarillion.
It's safe to say whatever his rank is, it's not high enough
Right, Finree is extreme. She's described as being venomously ambitious
The whole reason she's come here is not to win the battle
It's to make sure that her husband does all the right things to get himself promoted
I think this is a really fun character. It's a really fun
and other element to
war and conflict
The fact that you're looking at these organizations and they are organizations and there are ranks and there are promotions and there are pay rises
There's a sense of almost corporateness
to the other side so
That's kind of really fun to see the fact that she kind of I don't say disdain but
Almost like disinterest on what's going on over there
Over on the other side of that field
Is really cool. That's right. Just like Beck her arc is to change her perspective on war
She's using it as a tool for political gain and personal ambition
By the end of the book she comes to learn the cost of war and it's not by like killing a friend actually no
It's about vicariously feeling the suffering of others her husband is wounded
um her
Not exactly a friend but like the only companion she has is taken as captive by the enemy
And we never find out what happens to her. It's left to both ours and Finree's like dread imagination
And then at the end she like starts caring for the wounded and it's full of these vicious hideous wounds
And she has a great confrontation with Gorst at the end, but I’d like to hit that quite a bit later actually
So let's now jump once again to the other side. Do you know how we're going back and forth?
Uh to each side of the battlefield not only is that a great thing with the POV's in the book as we kind of rotate around
There is actually and now we've got to the midpoint the POV characters. I’m going to talk about this chapter
It's not quite the midpoint the book made the first third but gosh Geordie. This is the best written chapter
I loved it. I thought the idea was great
So much fun to first read it
chapter's called
casualty
Go ahead Duncan
This is chapter and this chapter marks like I said about a third away from the novel the actual start of like the main conflict
This is when the armies are finally going to clash
And it takes a while to have happen. It does take a while the build-up is really important
But here it is. It kicks off and we follow a new POV and I’m like, oh
Oh, hello
Who are you? That's nice. Oh, you've got your ideas of war you oh you got a ring with your um
Betrothed’s picture on it. How lovely oh how things doing I love that because it's like an
An old-fashioned version of like the locket a world war two soldier has his round his neck 10 minutes before he dies
And five minutes later in this book this character dies and I was like, oh my god
Wasn't expecting that what cool way to kind of kick this off
I love the fact that we get so much of this character by when just a few paragraphs
He's like, oh, I wish I spent more on my sword and not my foppish hat. Oh, no, we've been flanked
And what do I do? You know you get all of his thoughts and experiences what he thought
It's going to be like war or how it's the reality of it. His troops are abandoning him
It's actually paying he gets cut down and then there's a little break in the page
And we jump to a northerner who goes and then I hit that foppish idiot again on the head
and we get his perspective and we
Do the same again. We get a little bit of his life and they're about to storm and so it goes
And it throughout this chapter swapping back and forth as characters kill each other
Their murderer becomes the new perspective character
Loved it. I loved it because you what I wasn't expecting this
And each time I think they even get shorter the sections yet
And you obviously realize what the pattern is
But he still Joe, I can't be crammed so much into who this person is and you're like, oh you're gonna die
Yeah, and a great part of this is that you start to recognize characters like
You're in the
Clamour of battle and like you meet someone called rose and that person dies and they're killed by someone you don't know
But then you're like, oh shit. I do know this guy
This is like this is Craw's friend and now Craw's pal is hacking people down and charging through the battlefield
And like wait a second, but I know how this chapter's going
Oh, no
Craw's friend's gonna die and he does and the great thing about this is that this keeps going until you get
like and
What's really great about this section is that not only do you jump between characters?
It actually carries over multiple battlefields as people are routed and as they run away
It moves from like the top of The Heroes to like the river and a whole new battlefield starts
And that means that Gorst, one of the main characters like he's in the inner blurb. That's how main of a character he is
He becomes the perspective character and you're like, oh my god, is he going to die?
like he hasn't been properly tested in battle yet and
And then that makes it a really tense scene because normally I wouldn't believe that a main character in this particular battle is in danger
But the whole gimmick of this scene is about the fragility of life
So even though he's fighting real hard and he's killing a lot of people when like Golden Glama or whatever he's called shows up
You're like, oh shit. That's a named man. He might really be in trouble now
now
spoilers
Gorst doesn't die in this scene
He is the final one when finally the two sides decide to separate for the day's fighting
And what I love the way this chapter ends. I think it's so fantastic
Because I think it could so end with like, you know a real focus on the fragility or the horror
I just love that it ends on Gorst as like the two sides pull apart basically going. Oh god. Damn it
Oh, I was just getting into that
I was getting a proper kill streak. I was about to get an attack helicopter
And I think that's just a wonderful bit of kind of dark humour. Joe Abercrombie would just kind of send slinging in there
That just makes the whole chapter
It is like intense and there's a lot of motion, but he does just keep it. It sounds weird to say entertaining
Reading a book about war. I am still looking to be entertained
I think he just lightens it slightly at the end to go. Okay
I can still have a little bit more fun with more of the actiony bits of this
and I thought let's I want to
I’m gonna hone in one what you said about the book being entertaining right at the end
I think that should be the last thing we talk about
in this book
um before we go to
You know what we're reading next time or whatever. So
because
This is an
This is an anti-war book
Like it's about the fragility and the horror of war and I think one thing we should talk about at the end is that even possible?
But before we get long before we get there and before we move on to another character
We keep talking about Gorst or whatever. I want to raise a criticism of this chapter
Criticism I thought this is pretty top tier. What what's your issue mate?
Well, my issue was only like 40 with this chapter and 60 with you Duncan Nicoll. Oh, no, what did I do?
When you were reading this book last year or whatever
You told me that the entire book was like this
You said that the book was every time a character died
It swapped to their killer and my impression was it was about this whole chapter
Like as an entire book like the entire battle was about swapping sides
Not because you had perspective characters and different sides of battle because people kept dying and being replaced
And I was really interested to see how someone would write that book
Well, maybe I’m prone slightly to a grand eyes ideas
Wouldn't that be a cool book though? Geordi you can go and write that it would
Maybe it sounds hard
That's why I was really intrigued. I’m like Joe Abercrombie is a great writer from what I’ve seen
That sounds really difficult though. You need to get invested in these characters pretty fast
Oh gosh what I don't even remember this conversation Geordi, but clearly
If that was your expectation for the whole book that must have been shattering
I was really confused at the start. I’m like man, it's swapping characters a lot. Maybe it won't kick in until later
But it never did. I mean it did but it did it for two chapters
It went for this chapter and for one other chapter
Where it wasn't like people killing each other over and over and over again. It just so happened that like
A new character is introduced as a perspective character and then they're killed and their killer became the perspective character
But that character then wasn't immediately killed
It's a cool idea. I never when I was actually having this conversation with someone
Apparently like they're like, oh, yeah, they did that in Call of Duty and I’m like, please let's not let's not debate
They did yes the world war one game
You were playing the British versus the Germans and whenever you were killed as a brit you swapped over and you joined the German side
but it's like
Literally one mission in like an otherwise completely normal Call of Duty game where it's like, okay
Now just get back to killing the bad guys. So talking about killing the bad guys
Gorst
We've mentioned him several times
He likes killing people
Yeah
This dude is a pretty big departure from every other character in the book because he has pretty much no redeeming qualities
And yet he's sort of the most traditionally heroic character in this entire book
He's the strong fighter, you know, he's the guy he only
There's a bit in his introduction where he's like, I don't wear all that hefty armour. I just take the bare minimum I need
One glove tanned one sword
I’m looking after my parents dachshund and she's just woken up so she may start barking
Tilly has a little ramp to get on the sofa. It's adorable, right?
Actually the ramp broke because my dad steps in it. So um now she has to be picked up all the time
So yeah, this is very this is much more traditional in fact
I think it's good that all the characters are there though because then we can actually really see Gorst in his true light
Which is particularly coming off Beck
absolute sociopath
No problem with killing people
In fact, he's more comfortable murdering people than he is like speaking up in a conversation
Yes, it's like if john wick had social anxiety not gonna lie. I actually really liked how these bits were written as
As someone with like with autism the level of social anxiety he has when he's like trying to talk up in like a planning meeting
I’m like, ah, I feel you Gorst. I’m there with you buddy
I love the fact what's interesting about Gorst is that so much of what he does
Physically is supposed to be impressive and cool and it is you know
He's fighting at like a horde of barbarians and he gets you know, like says like I killed 15 men today
And I could have done more but everyone else gave up
But in every other way he's not physically appealing. He's ugly
you know, he's described in such a way that like he's clearly like physically repellent and
Most interesting of all he has like a very high pitched voice. It's described as a falsetto and he's embarrassed about this
it's such a mix of feeling bad for him and
Also sometimes sort of joining in the disdain
Gorst has a lot of self-pity
You know, he's sort of very much aware. He self describes himself a lot as not being very attractive having an embarrassing high-pitched voice
He a lot of his sections are focused on the fact that he's been put here at this part of the war as effectively punishment
He used to be the king's bodyguard
But he fucked up
Not for the his fault and now he's sent here to basically write letters home to his majesty
About how great the war's going on. Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that but you're right
He's there as the king's observer. He's not even supposed to fight which is interesting because you know
He's the person who kills the most in the whole book, but he's not even ordered to do it
He's just doing it because he wants to and there's a great amount of humour in the extremely eloquent and
Positive way in which he writes the letters to the king and then a absolutely hideous
Absolutely hideous slap of reality as it cuts to his narration and it's like the rain was dismal
It turned all of the roads to slime
Things Crawl along at a pitiful pace
we spoke in Best Served Cold that a great thing that joe apricot me does is
Have the characters
Think something and then immediately say something in complete contradiction and Gorst exemplifies this
His internal monologue and what he has says to the other characters never matches up
Particularly talking to like the superior generals. He'll always be respectful and then his brain would just be like you absolute foppish twit
Yeah, it's venomous and it's hateful
And when it comes to Finree in particular the one like woman perspective in the book
Before we even figure out she's going to be like a perspective character
And the inside he's full of like loathsome attraction to her like he's he's he's he's deeply infatuated with her
in like a really ugly hideous way and
You know you're often um, and the great thing about this is that you know
It's you can be like, oh this is horrible, but you never have the impression that like he's gonna do anything bad
But mostly because he's just like a pitiful coward and he can't say anything
And one time he like does at the end of the book. It's just embarrassing
And it just takes away everything about him that you could ever possibly respect
I think this is great talking on the tropes of sort of the warrior hero
Because it's like saying what happens when you take this sort of I I’m just thinking comparing to like Druss the Legend
And what makes a character like Druss truly in, uh, David Gemmel's legend
And related stress Drunai book series
Why since I’ve read like we don't love him because he's a great fighter
Like that's often quite I think confused. It's similar. I would say a bit with uh, like a Conan character. I’ve always got to reference Conan
You don't have to read and really enjoy them because they're this incredible fighter
You might just enjoy the descriptions of the fight scenes
But it's not that they're a great fight that makes them enjoyable. It's that quite often they're quite charismatic
Yeah, it's the confidence and it's the bravura
And the fact that they carry that then into lots of aspects of their life
It's the fact that when Druss is like
He's not that Druss is confident. He's going to be able to kill a lot of people
It's the fact that he stands on the battlements and says don't worry lads
We'll take this fight because it's the good fight that needs fighting
You're like, yeah, mate. I'll follow you
The Gorst lacks so much confidence that he believes that other characters are contemptuous of him
They dislike him. They find him ugly
None of these characters ever say this
No one ever makes fun of him for having a high-pitched voice even his enemies like who are the most
macho man group ever who are like oozing testosterone every time they like every time they draw breath
None of them make fun of him for having a high-pitched voice or being ugly
And Black Dow says hey, you're such a good fighter and killer. You should join our side
And it's like yeah, he would fit in so well over there
But he just gets in his own way all the time because he's so
Simpering and pathetic and I know that one sounds like now we're being mean to the character
Which he deserves
Yes, I think that's a very good lie to mark. He is not nice to people. There's a bit at the end
He goes looking for Finree's husband
And because he's hoping that he turns up dead and when he's the one to find him
He like is immediately start strangling him to death until he's caught in which he just checks to pretend. He's checking his pulse
Yeah, he's loathsome and pathetic, but there's also this really interesting part of that very scene, which is after he walks away
Dejected like he hears someone calling for help and he picks up like the log
That's crushing this guy with his prodigious strength and he rescues this guy. The guy's like, oh bless you. You good man
And he feels nothing because he doesn't care and he's being heroic in so many ways
But he's so despicable on the inside, but it just doesn't matter
He's incapable of actually being like good or true
Another fun thing just while we're still on Gorst is that Gorst has a great relationship
with the character of Caul Shivers
Because Gorst is one of those a great example. She's talked in Best Served Cold the character of the cripple
Who's a very it's a completely minor background character in that book, but he's one of the main POVs
in the original trilogy and Gorst is
Is one of the minor background characters in Best Served Cold?
And you're waiting for the moment where he and Caul Shivers are going to run into each other because
If you read Best Served Cold, you're like, oh, oh, this is that guy
He's going to knock down the stairs and like got like humiliated and he's the fall guy for call and Monza's plan
And you're like are they going to run into each other?
And if he does is he going to recognize him and they do run into each other?
And he does start to recognize him and he specifically starts to recognize him at a point where they're at like a peace treaty
So it's like this could literally reignite the war
If he can't keep it together and when he like goes up and he grabs him and he shoves over and outside the way
He's like have you ever been to stereo?
There's this great moment because call is a guy who could absolutely knowing that peace is on the line could say
Oh, yeah, it was you
Fuck you and then completely start the war. So there's a serious move to tension before call goes
Nah, never been there and that's the end of it
And Gorst just gets shrugged off and shoved to the side and people even forget that he said a word
It is a great anticlimactic ending for this character. I think it suits that kind of
pathetic undertone
just perfectly but
Let's leave Gorst. Let's leave The Union for a bit and let's spend some more time on the other side with the Northmen
Because there are two other key northern POV's that we have let's touch on the maybe lesser one first
And then we'll go for the guy who really brings us to the end game
So the lesser one is the actual first character we ever kind of talk to in this book
Now I’m a little bit off on pronunciations. This Curnden Crow… Crow… Craw…
Craw
Because you've got something in your Craw
as I do
Very regularly. Yes, whenever you try to say a difficult fancy name
Craw is in many respects the exact opposite end of the spectrum to Beck
He is the very old soldier. He's one of those heroes that people tell stories about he's a named man
Which basically means you have a cool nickname
Which you've earned I would disagree wholeheartedly. Uh, he's not like the opposite of Beck
He's like the path the path more chosen
He's what Beck could end up being because the important thing to know about Craw
Even though he is like a great fighter and he's a good leader and he's seen it all and he's like
He knows he has the good connections to other war chiefs
Uh, he's terrified of fighting
Like he's completely terrified of it and he's never gotten over his fear of being in battle
And he's in the first battle of the book even before the armies arrive. He's in the first skirmish
So is it more the same? So it's not the opposite end as in a different character. He's just Beck at the opposite end of life
Is exactly like it could get back comes to a point where he could choose
What sort of man am I gonna be and he could choose to try and be like his father and therefore end up being Craw
Someone who's been in a ton of battles and has a lot of experience but is still terrified of fighting because he'll never get over it
Or he could take the path that he ends up choosing and being you know, a good man because Craw is always saying
We have to do the right thing. You have to do the right thing. That's his big belief
He's basically saying, you know, like he's lawful neutral. He's like we have to follow the code. We have to follow the rules
Even when it's not the good thing to do
It's the right thing
Beck chooses to do the good thing. He breaks like the code the rules. This very much plays into the fact that Craw is
Fundamentally, I think a bit of a coward because the reason why it's like we should follow the code is because he doesn't ever want to take a step
For what he believes in really against anyone else
Now that's yeah, I think there's definitely some truth about Duncan
I like the way you phrased that to tie in his cowardice to his like willingness to follow the rules
It's not the what I took away from the book, but I do like that approach
Well, I just I say that because I also think it ties into his ending and I know we're jumping head over heels to get there
But Craw's ending is that he keeps saying throughout this book I’m old and I feel it in my bones and my knees aren't what they used to be
But at the end of the book he has a similar situation with to Beck with the fact that he could retire
He could take his pot of gold and maybe he could go farming or whatever, but he doesn't he stays in the life exactly and specifically for
Yeah throughout this book he's like the tropey character of the book
He's like the tropey character of oh I’m just one day away from retirement
He's sending out these huge death flags being like I could just get out of the game
And so you're expecting him to be the guy who dies in the climax
And there's a really pivotal moment where it looks like yeah, he's dead
when like
Basically, the best fighter the northerners have is killed in a fight with Gorst
Not by Gorst because that would be too satisfying but just by a random
Happenstance where a spear just so happened to stick him because the idiot didn't wear any armour because he thought he was going to be
He was destined to live forever
Gorst turns his attention to Craw because he's defending Iron Dow
sorry Black Dow
and
Who
Interfere? Who saves the day right before he's cut down one day away from retirement? It's Beck
Good old Beck
I was genuinely thinking if Beck dies for this man
I will not be happy
but but but just to think like I I really like the fact he didn't because
in addition to the uh, the fantasy people have of like, you know being made whole of growing up of maturing through battle
There's also an obsession with dying. Well, it's all tied up in the fantasy of warfare
I’m using fantasy with a lowercase f there, but it is still important to this book with the capital f
If Beck died to redeem himself that would be just as toxic as if he became like a good person
And a better man by learning how to kill people and Beck doesn't do either
He doesn't die for Craw and isn't even kill for him
He gets one lucky hit where he flaps Gorst with the with the flash of his blade
He knocks him stone cold and he gets blood on the sword
But that's it. He doesn't draw blood. It's the only
Swing he makes that entire fight that entire climactic battle which decides the end of the war
So he going back to Craw like I’m really glad he's there. He gives a great perspective
He ties into a lot of other characters, but he still he's not the main guy
There's just one more bloke. Is he in the First Law books?
cool
Yeah
I yes he is in the original
Uh trilogy and I’ll be honest. I think he's very much the same kind of bloke there
I'll retire soon. Just you I’m nearly out guys
But yes Duncan before I like dragged you back to the battle you talked about the end of his story
Um and about how fact he does retire it defies our expectations
More than once because he does give up the game
Yes, he does give it up
kinder not quite
I really enjoy the fact that how likely he seems to fall back into it. Do you
Remember the exact scene where he's just like
Oh, okay
Oh, yeah for sure
Uh, so this is a scene again another scene I saw coming from a mile away, but it's brilliant. I loved it so much
He's retired to do as he's always said he's gonna do he's become a carpenter
He's moved to a little village where they've taken him in because it's good to have a named man around
and
He sucks at being a carpenter
Like and of course he has he was like he was a carpenter for like two minutes when he was a boy
And now it's I don't 50 years later
And he wants to try and take it up again, and he thinks he's gonna be just as good at it as he is at fighting
And he answers no he sucks at it
and then
Who should show up at his door but a character called Hard Bread and Hard Bread?
Is the character who he first runs into right at the start
One of the few northmen who works for The Union and he's the first person who has a who has any kind of fight
in the book it's between
craw's dozen and
And Hard Bread's dozen, but he shows up at his door his former enemy who's always been very friendly with and he says so um
The war's over
Uh, but another one's starting and would you like to come with us and join it?
And he says no no no no no
I’ve retired. This is what I’ve always wanted and heartbreak goes. Okay, but
We kind of really want you to be there, but okay, if not, that's fine and he walks away
And it's not even a full page later of him looking around
His own little hut which he's built himself and a promise of the future that he's always wanted
When he grabs his cloak and his sword and he runs out the door saying Hard Bread
Wait for me. I always want I love to know because I haven't seen this character
I haven't read more books kind of going forward. What does Craw get like, it's like he's chasing that heroic death
Or he's just terrified to
Be normal and have
To put up with like the actual basic things
I mean, that's close to it, but I really think the fact of the matter is that he just doesn't know how to change
He spent his whole life doing one thing
And now he wants to try and be something else and it's impossible
He's caught in a pattern of behaviour that he doesn't know how to break just like that character
I’ve never read anything about the Bloody Nine
He's stuck. He only knows how to be one thing and like it or not scared as he is
He's hooked on it
I think the only thing that upsets me is the idea that if Craw ends up just ruining other people's lives
At least he doesn't seem to be pulling other
Like young men like if Beck died, I’ll be like, I hate you Craw
I know you you didn't necessarily do that or be responsible, but I will hate you for it
so if he just goes
I mean, he's gonna kill people that's kind of the job, but
Just doesn't hurt too many nice characters in the way
fine
Have your soldier's life
I
Don't know enough about these books in general to make any kind of prediction
I guess I’d be surprised if I saw Craw in a future book
You know
I don't know anything about Red Country. Really? I don't know how much it crosses over with the rest
I know that I want to read it and I want to read a bad because apparently it has like the best
duel ever and like
The Best Served Cold has the best duel ever in it. So
That's really hard to imagine a better one than the ones we saw in that but hey ho, I guess it's in there
So yeah, I can't imagine he could show up again. Right? I think he has to just vanish
He went back to war and eventually it will kill him. I genuinely can't imagine
That's the end of his story. I can't see him having a Caul Shivers style
He'll turn around later because he had the arc. He had the arc and then we've got a lovely twist on it
And his arc is that he can't change so he can't
Change subsequently. That's the whole point of his character
Talking about characters that can't change though. Geordie the final POV
And the one that I think is really is one the best to sort of mark the actual
I don't know world movements the progression of
The overall story of First Law and that is the story of Prince Calder
Now… Long live Black Calder!
A little background Prince Calder. He is in the first trilogy. He is the
younger son of the old king of the north a guy called Bethod
who
Sadly tragically passed away in a terrible accident involving a circle the Bloody Nine and some axes
Following that Black Dow became king because Black Dow
Also had a sword and an axe to hand at the time
And Prince Calder and his older brother scale
Just to drop his he exists as well
I’ve been kept alive and around mostly because there's enough people who like him
For him not to be dead yet
Just about just about just about
called as an interesting character and his parts of the story are probably the most intricate and precise and
Probably the closest a book has to a main character
I'd agree
I agree. I think that's why him and Craw I'd say are the main guys
I don't think it's an unfair amount of page time for being that
But his narrative I'd say is certainly I’m going to say the most complex
And the most driven not by his own personal character arc, but by the events
Yes, he's got his fingers in so many pies and he cares a lot about like and he's smart enough to know
What's going on in different camps and what different people want what they're trying to achieve
That he gets to have a lot of time spent thinking much like tunny
Oh, you know what? We never actually said in the spoiler freeze the spoilerish section
What happened with tunny and what my great prediction was and my great prediction was that tunny would never see battle and he doesn't
He spent four days
standing in the edge of a swamp
watching cold aside
And doesn't do anything
But I love about that is the fact that he stands there watching not doing anything is actually super important
It's like a world changing event them standing there because sometimes that's literally all you need in warfare
It's just to put soldiers in the right place
Obviously betrayed beautifully for the maps of the book
But what you're alluding to is they're in this sort of position where the other side know
That if they kind of charge or make a certain push
They'll expose their flank so they can't so they're stuck
And they're so stuck that that um
Calder has to just sit there and wait as his brother's side is massacred like completely overwhelmed
And his brother is cut down and he can't do anything. He has to call for help from an ally an ally
Read a man who hates him and wants him dead
Most of the characters in Calder's story
So just to give a little bit more effect of where his because I actually feel like I need to explain this one more
Calder starts this story in bed with a beautiful wife who I believe he married before his dad died
So he did very well in this marriage because he got married to make some airs
He was a promising match and then he fell from grace, but he already had the beautiful and powerful wife
And Calder just wants to sit here drinking water
And Calder just wants to sit here drink wine and have sex with his beautiful wife
But he is summoned to the battlefield by Black Dow
The strangest thing about this the truly strangest thing about this is that this appears to be the first happily married couple
In in either of the Joe Abercrombie books I’ve read so far
I think you're probably I’m just I’m just looking for my mind
Yes
Maybe one other but you wouldn't have met them. They're in the First Law trilogy
But yeah, like Calder has something to lose and much like a lot of the other people in this book. He's not a fighter
But people want him to be one there's a lot of expectations on his shoulder to be like his father
To be like his brother to be like all the other men in the north and be like a true warrior
People keep saying sometimes you have to fight
And it's so nice to see a character who just really wants to prove them all wrong
And has unlike a character like Beck he has a level of agency
He's high enough up that pecking order to try and bring that about yeah
And what Calder really wants besides to stay alive and go back to his beautiful wife is um
For Black Dow not to kill him
And for Black Dow to be dead so he can be king
Simple, easy, easy peasy. He has the right
But not the power not enough people like him. Well people like him, but they don't respect him
You know, he doesn't have
the bones as they say in the north
And what we kind of get is a lot of this kind of
Slight political movements around the battlefield
He's trying to look for opportunities
To obviously advance himself
And to hopefully see Black Dow day and I love that. I think there's a little bit where he's kind of just hoping
He's like maybe someone else is just gonna kill him
There's a battle going on
fingers crossed guys
What I like, but what kind of drive his spot?
What I like about Calder's story is that much like with someone like Beck you're feeling the push and pull of traditional narrative
And you're waiting for him in
Slightly crass terms to nut up
You know, he's saying I don't want to fight
I want to do anything I can to avoid fighting and you're waiting to you're being like yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah grow up get out your sword and start killing people
Because that's what you expect from a traditional fantasy story. You expect the wimp to draw his sword, you know the this
Freudian
penis symbol like get your manhood out and start swinging it around and
displays of your expectations a lot because at a certain point
He does fight
But he doesn't draw his own sword himself. He just comes up with a good plan
And that feels great because you finally get into a position where people can start to respect him and like follow his leadership
He like yes, he's stepping forward now. Just start killing people. Come on and then he doesn't
Even when he's like being attacked head-on by the enemy after his great like military victory
He has to rely on like his adversaries to help him out. He's calling out for help! Help! Help!
But I think that's so kind of great about him is he kind of represents
I’m probably like the good king
That's not the case
But the sort of bit of the military side of things they're like, well, yeah
Actually, the leader should be good at the strategy and the tactics element
He's sort of why was it matter if he's actually good at drawing his sword and getting in the fray?
Yeah, this is a weird thing. I forget which one it is. It's like maybe the second
Song of Ice and Fire books where Tyrion is obviously really smart
And he's a good leader and he can't the only reason he can't be king is that one
Yeah, he doesn't have the birthright but two like people won't accept him because he's a dwarf and they won't
Listen to him as a proper authority
But when the battle comes to king's landing, he still gets an axe and he like fights and kills people
And that feels weird because one it doesn't feel like something he'd actually be able to do and two
It doesn't really suit his character. Like that's not what he's about. He's not a fighter. He's a thinker
Having main characters show a lot of cowardice
Cowardice is actually really quite unique and I found it very refreshing in both Calder and Beck
The other time so props there, Joe
Yes, absolutely love Calder's character again long live Black Calder
And the reason why I’m calling him Black Calder is
He gets in the fighting circle with Black Dow
Through a few shenanigans. He's basically accused of attempting to portray Black Dow. She did. He's like
I’m not actually as guilty as you think but I am a little
Here I am
And let's have a moment to talk about Black Dow because he is an important character
Okay, he's not a POV, but you're right. He is a huge influence on the story
In fact, he's sort of reason this narrative is happening the fact that I say he is that's actually very apologetic to colonial powers
Sorry, the local kings didn't just roll over
How bad of them, but he won't sit down at the table
So he's gonna fight
Black Dow
It's a bit hard. I’m quite coloured because I read First Law so I saw him in the book
So I actually think Geordie if you tell me your impression and then maybe I’ll give you a little bit of background
And we'll see how that kind of marries up. Sure Black Dow is a character who's outwardly
Literally sort of hyping up everything about himself to be like the
uber masculine
Northern warrior king so like he swears and he swaggers and like he's good at fighting
And like he commands respect through fear
But actually deep down like you can tell this guy's crafty. He's smart. He's savvy and he's actually merciful like really merciful
Like he doesn't kill Calder even though he is a political threat because basically he likes him and he doesn't see him as
Like he doesn't want to kill him and he releases hostages who he doesn't have to release
And like he wants to sue for peace
But he can't do it without seeming weak to the other northern lords and so he has to be really careful about how he explores that
So yeah, that's my impression. He's basically brutal and scary
But a good serviceable king for the north
And the only way he's a weak king is where he feels restrained
by
the population's expectations
So how is he in the first trilogy?
first trilogy Black Down is essentially
just kind of one of the side characters
to
I’m going to say Logen Nine Fingers gang which includes another character you meet in this book the dogman. Yeah, I figured
because he talks about being like
Like the friend of Logen of the black the blade nine
He says like hey, did you get know that the dogman's coming and he's bringing a Bloody Nine
Exactly. They're all kind of part of a gang
And but the thing is but I thought it's such like
One of the more side characters he's slightly I would describe as the strategist
just barely and his
Honestly, the only real impact he has is that in the last trilogy
the Bloody Nine does kill Bethod
And it's like I’m going to be king of the north
But first I’m going to do the right thing and go to the south union lands
To deal with the actual big bad guy of this book trilogy. Um Black Dow do you mind just like you know being the steward while I’m away
Cheers, mate
And so there's a scene near the very end of the book where the Bloody Nine comes back
And it's one the clothes. It's the final scene. We see the Bloody Nine in the trilogy
And he comes back thinking
Oh, I’m coming back to my kingdom
And he walks in and Black Dow is effectively on the throne and it's like actually
Mate, um, I had some chats with people while you were away
And we actually don't want you to be the king
I know you killed the last one. That's how it tends to work. But this narrative works better for everyone
And that's like literally and then that scene closes
Really? So you don't see for sure whether he kills the Bloody Nine?
You do not know for sure if the Bloody Nine dies
Your phrasing is very interesting
I’m I’m disappointed by the fact that you told me The Blade Itself is um, not as good as the rest
Uh, you have told me before that the opinion is basically that every book gets a little bit better
So I sort of feel a little bit spoiled by the fact that I’ve like
you know
I’ve watched I’ve read like the best parts of the series so far
And now I’m gonna have to go back to square one to sort of get to figure out who the fuck Logen Nine Fingers actually is
The thing is I said that mostly because
And I would say this to all listeners
If you're the type of person who's in for a penny in for a pound
And you know that if you read the first book in the trilogy like you know, you'll read the whole trilogy you'll do it
Then I think there's no problem tying The Blade Itself
Due to the nature I’m not gonna like with the format of this uh lovely show we do
Where a book's got to be pretty bayan
To make sure that we keep reading in a series I wanted to hit off with a bit more of a home run
And I also wanted to test whether or not the Best Served Cold was a good standalone
So if you're a listener and you don't know if you're going to you know commit to a trilogy kind of regardless
I still recommend Best Served Cold as a perfect starting point
but
The First Law trilogy
I would probably rank above
The standalone experiences but just that very first book
I personally feel although it has amazing character work
Is a bit slow
Interesting there's a lot of time setting up the board
Subsequent books are amazing. I in fact before they are hanged maybe
No, I prefer Best Served Cold and The Heroes actually but a good book
It's the best of the trilogy. They're all good. Come on. The bar's high, but they are not as good as these two standalone. I'll admit
Okay
We had a bit of a digression there
Calder gets into the circle with Black Dow. He's
He can't win like it's just it's ridiculous you as a reader like well
you know anything could happen like he could slip in the mud and fall on his sword and
That doesn't happen like Calder does live but it's not as like
fairy tale
Or ironic enough to be like oh and by some mere happenstance of fate he wins
Black Dow just so happens to insult Caul Shivers
So that's actually wouldn't actually be out of the way for Joe Abercrombie
Because in Best Served Cold there is actually a scene where a statue just falls
Over and it's like got a sword on it and impales one the villains. Yeah, but they were gonna win that fight
We can have a little bit of hilarious irony in here
He just so happens
To insult Caul Shivers a little too much and call just steps up behind him
Cracks him in the head and kills him
I think it's fantastic that Caul Shivers isn't a POV in this book
Yeah, he kind of has the most pivotal moment
Yeah, and when you think about like the string of events that leads up to this which is essentially like a
Groundbreaking historical moment
The end of like a dynasty basically probably a pretty short-lived one, but nonetheless an important political faction
and how this all ties back to like
To all those back to what?
Monza is up to in the previous book and just so happen to fuck up
One guy in particular and letting him live at the end so he can go out and just wreak havoc wherever he goes
man
And yeah from this point on Caul Shivers is like the third man in charge
You know, he has cemented himself. He makes
Calder king. It's a little more complicated now, but we're not going to get into what Stranger Come Knocking because we haven't even introduced
But there's some interesting politics happening behind the scene which ties this whole book together in like a really fascinating and depressing way
We don't have time to get into it. It's good read the book. Come on, but yeah, Caul Shivers is the kingmaker
That just what dole is alluding to that interesting kind of political movement. That is the point
And it's great, but it's almost not what makes it enjoyable
So that's why I’m happy to leave that to the background. Yeah, we get this lovely moment
And I kind of really enjoy this scene because there's kind of this moment where all the northmen are standing there
And it's like they all just kind of well at least one guy definitely set for us is like, okay
It's Black Calder now because let's face it. That's the clearing this way forward where we don't start killing each other
And everyone's like, yeah, let's just not have a it's the path of least resistance and it completely goes against all their principles and all the rules
Because by all rights, this means Shivers should be in charge
But Stranger Come Knocking has said Calder, and he does have a good claim
And yeah, it's this path of least resistance. It's the power doesn't flow from the crown or in this case like the shiny necklace
It flows from the crown
Like the people's willingness to be governed the powerful people who are underneath the king say
Yeah, let's just pick this guy and immediately after this like the epilogue of the book is about a secession crisis where like
Gold or an iron head or immediately butting heads again and that's led to another war which Calder needs to put down
And like they're referring to coldest king
Even though something really interesting happens right after this which is like probably one of my favourite parts of the whole book
I want to dive into that moment
So something that you haven't talked about is Calder's brother Calder has an older brother called scale
Who is everything that Calder isn't he's the traditional
Sword wielding hero relatively speaking
Um for the man, I love the fact that scale loves his brother and it's actually I think one of the main things that keeps Calder quite likeable in this book
Is that he clearly has quite a bit of brotherly love
disagree he has someone he
I think there's an extent of brotherly love between them
but
In his like, you know how we keep saying characters in these books say we're brothers
In his in a monologue. He keeps saying if only I could get rid of him, you know, he's standing in my way
Once I’m rid of him, then I’ll be you know, then I’ll be able to do what I want
Well, yes, but he changes his mind sort of in the last moments. Well, I think you're getting
Yes, I am getting to that but I want to really hone in the fact that I don't think he does change his mind
And I think he does change his mind in the last moments
I think you're getting yes, I am getting to that but I want to really hone in the fact that I don't think he does change his mind
No, I and I felt the need I had to say bring up like his inner monologue about how
There's this element of friction where there isn't brotherly love because that's what Caul Shivers
The agent of chaos hones in on saying, you know your brother we thought he was dead. He's actually alive
No one except you knows he's still alive
I could kill him for you
Then you became
And no one will be able to argue otherwise
And what happens next is that there's this huge
period
In his head where he's greeting his brother and he's
Looking after him and he's in a state, you know, his brother is damaged and broken and he looks terrible
He's missing a hand was chopped off by Gorst
And as he's walking him back
You as a reader going don't do it. Don't kill your brother be a good person for once just for once change
And then the most shocking thing happens not the most shocking thing that's still back
But the second most shocking thing is that not only does he not tell?
Shivers to kill his brother
He gives him the chain he makes his brother king instead of him
All of this book is characters making not all the characters
About half the characters making the wrong decisions or not changing
And it's so nice for one of them. This is I think almost the moment which makes you think oh you're like the main character
Because he does the one good deed
And then the second one is the one who's saying I have to do the right thing and then chooses to go back to war
Calder does the right thing who's always done the wrong thing up to this point. It's always been craven and sneaky and treacherous
He's the one who does the right thing
now
It's not 100 the right thing. I like said I said
A little caveat there is definitely an element where Calder is going better. He be on the throne and me the power behind because
He who wears the metaphorical crown?
More likely to get his head taken off
That's definitely an element of it. Yes, it's true
but nonetheless
It's also brotherly love like after this he helped like he helps him into a saddle
he starts to look after him the way that scale used to look after Calder when they were boys and
This is just such a nice sweet ending for such a dark book
Oh the warm and fuzzies
and
Everyone else who's alive
Just gets to go home
Gorst gets like returned to his previous position this whole time
He's been fighting and killing a bunch of people to like earn enough renown
And then when the letter arrives that like says I want you back in your previous position
I forgive you for your trespasses. He realizes that it was sent before the battle had even begun
which is
Hysterical and he goes to Finree and he says like I’ve been returned to my position and she's like wow, that's great
we've been promoted to be like
lords and ladies like we've
stratospherically risen above our previous station and
And so he has to sort of he's grinning at me like oh great
Everything that I was made me special is way less special than you
And this whole time he's like he says he's been in love with Finree
He hasn't he's been like infatuated and obsessed with her but whatever
And he finally reaches his breaking point where he expresses that he loves war
He goes on this big rant about how great it is and about it
it's the only place where people can respect him where he has power
and
She's sickened by him and she takes him to task and she points out all of the horrible suffering all around him
which she's born witness to and what she's finally come to understand how dreadful it is and it's so
Satisfying to be like wow the one time you opened your mouth and you said what was really in your head
And people can see what you really are. It's so satisfying
It's the great bit of justice and in a story where like the overarching theme is a complete lack of
Universal comic justice. It's nice to see it play out on at least character levels
Yeah, this isn't a book where the good get what they deserve and the bad
Also get what they deserve
That never happens period full stop
No one leaves this book better than where they started it except I guess Calder, but he's also worse off in some ways
There was a strong sense of dark chaotic fatalism to Best Served Cold where no matter what characters tried to do
Nothing they ever tried to accomplish
Really came it really came to pass and there was an almost air of delightful fatalism
Where you could throw up your hands and say what are you gonna do? This time? I had such higher expectations for the characters in this book
I really felt like they were gonna change and gonna accomplish something and so that sense of dim dissatisfaction
with the exception of like Craw's
Decision at the end to go running off. That's the same dark fatalism as Best Served Cold. That was familiar
for the most part though
You know like you're left feeling like man
These characters have just been hurt and made worse in every way and nothing of any true consequence was accomplished in this story
And that has to lead us on to our final topic of is this a good story about war?
You know, is it a good?
Anti-war story and is such a thing even possible?
Oh god, okay
Going to the big guns. So is this a good story about war?
See, I really don't know how to answer that. I can tell you this was a good story and I was entertained
But was it a good anti-war story?
I personally
I felt reading and you know
Context of the fantasy genre and there's a natural disconnect there
I think it certainly did a good job of giving me almost another lens
to look at
other more traditional heroic fantasy tales
I think it generally did I think now when I read other books
Particularly a good example is when we read legend. Maybe this did give me a little bit of a lens into those moments where
You know, what was the conflict for?
The other characters that were dying
But to be honest, I’ve never wanted to go to war but I do enjoy reading a lot of literature which features it heavily so
So what does that make me?
Yeah, and it makes sense so much of our language around what makes an adventure
hinges around the idea of conflict and war
You know, that's why
Battles and guns are a feature of so many video games because it's a really direct form of conflict
It's a space which people want to explore
Call of Duty is a first-person shooter because people want to think what if I were a first-person shooter?
People want to think what if I was under fire?
Would I be able to handle myself?
And the answer we expect to get out of those stories is yes
I would be able to handle myself and I would change and I'd become a better man
And that would allow me to live out my power fantasy
and the same exists for
First for stories where the characters die at the end
So in something like Legend where so many of the characters die in the name of what might be a hopeless cause that's heroic too
That's a power fantasy too. It's a fantasy. That's also about
A grievance, you know, I I’m suffering so much my personal life and I can represent that in a way in which these characters are suffering
for a righteous cause
All of those books all of those stories those games as well. They're all
all pro-war stories because
Any story which can make you think yeah
Being a soldier would be great
Even if it would suck
Stories where people come home in coffins covered in American flags or union jacks
Despite all evidence
Those are pro-war stories, too
There's a reason why when Saving Private Ryan came out a story which a lot of people consider to be anti-war
like the actual department of defence was like
Commemorated it, you know, they gave it like honours. They said yes. This is a good movie about war
Because it shows this enormous reverence
to
The people who went off to fight in a particular war
arguably the only good war world war two
And even though it's full of
Like soldiers being cowards and dying pointlessly and suddenly
Yeah, that's a pro-war movie, too
People go to war because they see you Saving Private Ryan and they think yeah
That works for me people go to war because they see full metal jacket and for some reason they just don't get what they're doing
They just don't get what it's about
one of the things that I feel is really strong in
those bits of media and something which
I don't think you could do in a book format because ultimately it would be very unsatisfying as a piece of entertainment
Which you know this literature is entertainment
It's the idea the fact that when a character dies heroically in battle
We always see beyond it. We see the characters showing them reverence
We see the fact that the victory was ultimately attained. We see that it was all for a good cause in the end imagine
Watching that and then when a character saying private Ryan
When that one guy gets shot because he's trying to deliver a message. It just cut to black, but that's it he said
That's who we were following
Yeah, or whatever story where like nothing was gained like you die and you fight heroically for a cause and then you lose
Like we don't see that often
like
Where not even like oh it was all a hopeless cause
Where it's like well what really mattered was what the politicians were talking about behind the scene
Which is kind of what happens in this book like the land gets divvied up union gains more ground
Anyway, even though they lost the war
The question is this a good anti-war story?
And I think the answer is still no for all the reasons I’ve listed like even though it says war is terrifying
It won't make you more of a man
If you can draw any kind of excitement from that if it makes you want to
swish us an imaginary sword in the air
No, I don't think it succeeds as an anti-war story
I really don't think you can make an anti-war story unless you genuinely ridicule the idea of war in of itself
like a
Dr. Strangelove or a JoJo Rabbit
That's the sort of thing. I think actually has to you have to make to make a properly anti-war story
I think one thing that some of these
What really could come home anti-war story is probably if you went hard on the angle that
Killing isn't
good
I think that's really no I think
I think it's not enough. I mean, it's not enough to say like oh those are real people with genuine lies
Like that's what the section where they people swap back and forth between
You know between all that it doesn't matter
Like it doesn't that doesn't matter people know that like oh those are real people on the other side
It what matters is that people still respect the institution of war people still like
uniforms and guns and swords
It's only when you have a story and I think you come close to with Beck where it's like
choosing peace
Choosing to like live a good life is actually more admirable than the weakness of choosing war
But you could come close to telling like an actually anti-war story
Well, I hope one day Geordie we might actually read a book that fully nails that
as for The Heroes
I would say
I’m not gonna say I disagree with you
Because there is definitely a bit of this book that is exciting particularly in
the
the circle, you know when
Cold is having his duel in the scenes when they're charging up the hill that I am just like oh isn't that thrilling?
Yes, of course and Duncan I want to make something clear just because this
Book doesn't succeed in its goal of being an anti-war book in my opinion
Doesn't mean it's a bad book or even that there's anything wrong with reading books that are pro-war
Like I enjoyed reading red storm rising and I described that to my girlfriend as NATO poor
Yeah, they're fun there's a reason people read these books they play these video games
I play violent video games as well because they're sick
It's fine. Just don't be susceptible to propaganda like me who it's impossible to propagandize
I on the other hand are very easy to propagandize and have fallen for all of it in my country
I like to play the war games where you the strategy was the RTS. I love directing my soldiers just
such fun
Get those carefully charges, right?
Duncan, that's all I’ve got to say
I love the love this book. It was great
People should read it even if you typically don't like fantasy. It is dark and it is gritty and it is gory
But not as gory as the previous book probably more accessible to be honest safe from all the
Historical politics read Best Served Cold because it slaps, read this one next because it also slaps
And once you've read both those books
Why don't you read Red Country?
Next book in this sort of standalone midquel trilogy thing people say it's really good
But it's not up to me when we read that one
No, it's not it feels really good to not have
The Heroes lurking behind me anymore because I wanted to read it as soon as you finish Best Served Cold
And I didn't want to jump in and do an entire series again to only then do another entire series
And then although I didn't know it was going to happen do an entire series of Star Wars books
That would have been like nine of the how many books do we do a year 24?
21
That doesn't make sense. How do we only do 21 books a year?
There's 52 books a year and we do a podcast episode every two weeks. We do that's 12 months
That's 24 books
No, but there's 52 books a year
No, but there's 52 weeks. Okay. I’m scared don't get what are we reading next time? There's 26 books. I can't do maths
I’m an engineer don't get… You're an engineer! What do you mean you can't do maths?!
I thought there was for 42 weeks a year
Anyway next month we are entering fully into the spooky month of October
And we will be chopping and changing things a little bit
Obviously we will maintain our long-standing tradition of doing berserk. Don't you worry. It's not even a pick
We're just doing it
but I feel like
We also need to do a scary book. We need to get into the horror fields. Yes
And Geordie when I was thinking about what scary book I would want to read I cast my mind back
and I thought about a promise that we made long ago
Uh, do we say we were going to read like a particular scary book?
We did Geordie and we didn't just say it to each other. We said it to the author themselves
Hailey Piper
When we interviewed them on this podcast
We had just finished reading The Worm and His Kings and we loved it
We said it was amazing. We did we said it to their face. It's incredible. Absolutely loved it
And it has a sequel in fact has two sequels now
It does we were a little behind the time. We said we would read that one before
The previous one came out. It was a couple of months ago. I think it wasn't the next one is
Even the Worm Will Turn, is that what it's called? That is correct. Release in 2023, Even the Worm Will Turn the sequel to
The Worm and His Kings and I believe the most recent book in the series is the Song of the Tyrant Worm
This is cosmic horror
This is a powerful trans main character
And hopefully this will be just as brilliant as the first book in the series fingers crossed. That was a real unexpected one
Just picked a book at random, which I heard one person talk about online
Turned out to be one of the best surprises that we'd had in the podcast so far
So whilst this one is not going to be a surprise. I’m really excited to see what it's like
Well, I suppose that's it then and then we'll just have to wait Geordie. We'll have to wait
For me to pick Red Country until then
I’ve been your host Geordie Bailey and I’ve been your other host Duncan Nicoll till next time I’ve already forgotten our fancy northern names
Uh, you are Black Tooth Geordie and this has been Merciless Duncan
Bye bye!