1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,280
Hello and welcome to another episode of Is This Just Fantasy? The podcast where every other

2
00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:09,720
week two nerds get together to rate, read and review a fantasy novel. I'm your host,

3
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:10,720
Geordie Bailey.

4
00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,280
And I'm the last podcaster, Duncan Nicoll.

5
00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,440
And this week, Duncan, we are reading something which I believe both of us have wanted to

6
00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:22,480
sink our teeth into for a long time. I know for a fact that in the very first list of

7
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:29,400
books we put together for this podcast, two and a half or so years ago now, I think.

8
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:30,400
Oh, getting onto that.

9
00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,000
You put on that list The Last Unicorn.

10
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,560
Yes, that's right, Geordie, by Peter S. Beagle, one of the seminal works of American fantasy

11
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:41,080
literature and one that we couldn't have actually done for a few years. There was a point that

12
00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,000
was off the market. There were some rights issues. It was all off, you know, taking down

13
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,280
from Kindle. You could not buy a new copy. Thankfully that got resolved, like, probably

14
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,680
a year and a half to two years ago now. So you can all rush out and get this book.

15
00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:54,960
It's as recent as that?

16
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:55,960
Yes.

17
00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:56,960
I thought it was more like 2015.

18
00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,320
No, I'm pretty confident this was going on until like at least 2020, which I realise

19
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,120
isn't two years ago, but please don't remind me of that fact.

20
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:11,720
The reason why I think it was 2015 is that I discovered The Last Unicorn in like matters

21
00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:17,140
that related to the rights issues because I'm a big fan, Duncan, of a band called Ninja

22
00:01:17,140 --> 00:01:19,640
Sex Party. Are you familiar with them?

23
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,320
No. What a name though.

24
00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:30,880
Well, they make great, quite silly songs like No Reason Boner, Dinosaur Laser Fight, Attitude

25
00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,360
City, but they also occasionally do covers and one of the covers they did was The Last

26
00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:41,480
Unicorn because they did it in honour of Peter S. Beagle around the time that he was finally

27
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:42,880
getting the rights back.

28
00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,480
Oh, well, then fantastic. I hope it was that long ago and he's had the rights for much

29
00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,660
longer. But Geordie, more than the question whether or not you can buy this book, should

30
00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:53,400
you buy this book?

31
00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,880
Oh, very good. Nice framing, Duncan. But before we get stuck in, I have a lot I'd like to

32
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,960
say about The Last Unicorn. Spoiler alert. Yes, yes, you should buy this book. It's beautiful.

33
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,520
Have you been reading anything else in the meantime?

34
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:13,020
No, I'm just an illiterate savage. I've recently started a new job, Geordie, and I've had no

35
00:02:13,020 --> 00:02:17,760
spare time. I have read lots of books. There's just been textbooks and not worth talking

36
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:18,760
about.

37
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,200
Are they interesting textbooks?

38
00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:27,000
Not if you think Six Sigma Processes and the basics of C coding is interesting, which it

39
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:33,280
actually is. But no. So other than playing a little bit of Legend of Zelda, which I have

40
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,280
actually gotten quite into at the moment, I finally picked up Tears of the Kingdom.

41
00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,240
Oh, great, because you were thinking about buying Breath of the Wild last time I spoke

42
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,440
to you. This was a couple of months ago after Tears of the Kingdom had come out.

43
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:49,820
Yes, I know. I had this moment. I'll tell you the full anecdote. So and it can get cut

44
00:02:49,820 --> 00:02:54,280
out in the edit when it's dull. I was leaving my old job and my manager, my last one to

45
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,680
one was just sat there and just went and looked at me and went, Sir Duncan, I've always had

46
00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,760
you down as the Legend of Zelda man. Like out of nowhere, this question comes and I'm

47
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:08,480
like, OK, I see where this is going. Sit back. Yes, you'll be right. I love the Zelda. I

48
00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,080
haven't played any of the new ones on the Switch. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Hope you

49
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,680
understand. And yeah, for my leaving present, I got Tears of the Kingdom.

50
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:23,480
Oh, awesome. That's so great. I know. And I had to like went to lunch afterwards and

51
00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,800
had to go. I'd be like, didn't you want Breath of the Wild? I'm like, I'm not complaining.

52
00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,360
Like just fine. For my money, you got the better game.

53
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,600
Well, exactly. Apparently I had the reason why I got Tears of the Kingdom is that like

54
00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:39,120
it was the new one. And my manager just went into shop and went, what is the best Zelda

55
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:44,520
you sell? And they were like, this one. That will be it. They were right. So I'm really

56
00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:49,000
enjoying it. I don't know if this will impact my enjoyment of Breath of the Wild, but it's

57
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:55,960
I've not experienced this sort of open kind of fantasy game. Like I played Skyrim. I played

58
00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,340
half an hour of The Witcher 3. It didn't grab me. It was too complex. Like Zelda to me has

59
00:04:00,340 --> 00:04:07,640
just this right balance of like there's enough depth and things to do that I'm it's you know,

60
00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,200
I get kind of throw myself into it. But at the same time, all the mechanics are very

61
00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,920
intuitive and very in the world. I don't know if you explained it. It's like I felt like

62
00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,440
when I was playing games sometimes like Skyrim or The Witcher 3, like I spent a lot of time

63
00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:23,280
in menus. Yes, especially the way I need to do that. Making potions and like sorting out

64
00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:28,880
your powers. Very dull, not interested. I also have failed several times to play The

65
00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,960
Witcher 3. The Legend of Zelda. I'm sure it's a great game. Only menu. Yeah, but you actually

66
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,560
have to navigate is what weapon that's going to break soon. Am I going to navigate to and

67
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,000
which of these like six powers can I use in a situation? And normally only a couple of

68
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,160
them are actually relevant and you can use them cool, interesting ways. That's the thing.

69
00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:52,040
It's like simple toolkit, but really complex ways. And just touching on the potion making.

70
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,400
I love the fact and love it is like a little bit time consuming. I love the very in the

71
00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,480
world since the potion making. It's not like in Skyrim or The Witcher, we go into a menu

72
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,200
just go up to a thing. I feel like a nagging menu. I like the fact you have to like hold

73
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,480
the items in your character's hands and then press a button to drop them in a pot. I know.

74
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:15,760
And then they bubble away and you get the item. Oh, it's great design. Anyway, so that's

75
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,360
not literature, but it is good fantasy. Geordie, what have you been reading? All right. The

76
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,960
question of whether or not it's literature is almost more of a philosophical one, but

77
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:30,560
I have actually been reading a lot. So prior to the Orange Sugar Duncan, that's the episode

78
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,040
we're supposed to be doing. We really probably should have flagged that up earlier. That

79
00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:39,920
was the plan for what we're supposed to read. We are not doing that episode today. Why is

80
00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:47,400
that? Because neither of us have finished it. Yeah. How far into it are you? If I said

81
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:55,680
a third, I would be grandizing slightly. Okay. I think I'm about 60% of the way through.

82
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,440
It's been about a month that I've been reading it. And I've been reading other stuff in the

83
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,960
meantime, most because I really cannot bring myself to read prior to the Orange Tree for

84
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:13,880
any extended period of time. So in the meantime, I have read Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy.

85
00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,480
This is my first ever- There is a name that I have heard? Yeah. This is my first Tom Clancy

86
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:23,520
novel. I've never read any of his before. I've only seen The Hunt for Red October, the

87
00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:29,720
movie. This is a very different book from anything I've read before because I don't

88
00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:37,000
read military fiction and I don't read extremely nerdy information about submarines. I now

89
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:43,720
think I might know more about submarines than you, Duncan. I doubt that. But go on. A really

90
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:51,880
cracking book. It's so in-depth on a bunch of extremely niche, nerdy information about

91
00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,920
different planes and boats and missiles. I had to keep going to Google Image to be like,

92
00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:02,200
what does this plane look like? What is this Russian fighter jet that was made in the 80s

93
00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:08,200
that's very important to the logistics of this war that I need to understand? The characters

94
00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:13,320
are extremely like, I just need someone in this place and time. I don't care about giving

95
00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:19,640
them character depth. They have simple wants and needs, like being a good ship captain.

96
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,320
And the end of the book is really abrupt. It's like, we are- That's it. The war's over.

97
00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,480
That's it. Stop. And everyone gets like all the characters and there are a lot of perspective

98
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:34,760
characters. They get like a paragraph each to wrap up their story and none of them get

99
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:42,480
to like see their family again or like talk to their friends or anything. So it's fascinating.

100
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:47,600
Very much enjoyed reading it, but not like anything I've read before.

101
00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,960
I'm always fascinated by Tom Clancy. I would love to give some of his work a go because

102
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,040
to be honest with you, Geordie, I only know Tom Clancy's name. I think it's stuck on so many

103
00:07:55,040 --> 00:08:01,720
video games that I genuinely at one point didn't know if he was actually a real person.

104
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,160
Well, to be fair, a lot of the stuff that is written by Tom Clancy is not read written

105
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:13,920
by stockcom Tom Clancy. One fact, one of the people who actually wrote some of Tom Clancy's

106
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:20,920
books is Steve Pieczenik, a lunatic who often goes on Alex Jones's info wars and is actually

107
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,080
responsible for the murder of an Italian prime minister.

108
00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,440
I wasn't expecting to go down that type of rabbit hole.

109
00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,200
No, wait. Yeah.

110
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:36,560
No. First things first, Tom Clancy is an author or is it a brand?

111
00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:42,280
He was an author until the time of his death, but I think he basically got divorced and

112
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:49,420
part of the settlement of the divorce is you have to keep writing novels because your income

113
00:08:49,420 --> 00:08:56,760
is based on your ability to write novels. And so your wife needs to have a share in

114
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,960
like, one, the money that comes from novels because that's part of the equity of the divorce

115
00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:08,640
and two, she needs to have like a hand in making these novels because she gets control.

116
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:13,800
She has like ownership of like the company essentially that makes them now. So at a certain

117
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,680
point, Tom Clancy might've been writing these novels, but actually he was handing it over

118
00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:25,360
to like other people who were knowledgeable about spy craft and military technology and

119
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:31,680
logistics information. Because Tom Clancy, a big guy who's very interested in military

120
00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:36,760
law and technical jargon, but not a soldier. Wanted to be, couldn't do it because of like

121
00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,720
glasses or something. And like, by the way, one of the main characters in this book is

122
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:47,920
like a five foot six Air Force guy who couldn't be a pilot because he has glasses, but he

123
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,880
proves himself and becomes an honorary member of the Marines by the end of the story and

124
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,160
gets the girl and kills three Russians with a knife.

125
00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,800
Oh, I love a good self-insert.

126
00:09:58,800 --> 00:09:59,800
Adorable.

127
00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:05,960
Well, that is a story more, even more complex than Peter S. Beagle’s one. So, okay, maybe

128
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:10,440
that needs, did he ever write fantasy? Can we ever justify him on this podcast?

129
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,920
Certainly not. I mean, well, this book is basically fantasy because occasionally you

130
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:22,080
just get hit by a laser beam of conservative politics. So in that way, it's even more fantastical

131
00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,960
than Peter S. Beagle. However, I don't think you should get into everything else I've read.

132
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,280
That's the one I have a lot to say about. I also started rereading the Count of Monte

133
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:38,840
Cristo. I've almost finished that book on like the Fall of the Nazi party by William

134
00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,800
Shirer, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. That's it. Almost finished. Things are not looking

135
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,920
good for Mussolini, Duncan.

136
00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,040
Anyway, Peter S. Beagle.

137
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:55,560
So The Last Unicorn. Very simple premise. It is about The Last Unicorn. Or so she is

138
00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:59,280
led to believe, although I don't think she actually ever believes it. It will begin in

139
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:05,400
a magical forest. The unicorn overhears these people chatting about how there are no more

140
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:10,720
unicorns. She's like, that can't be true. I do not believe it. That's impossible. And

141
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,720
so he goes off on a venture to find the other unicorns. Q fantasy.

142
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:21,700
This is like the questiest book we've ever read. It's about a magical creature who goes

143
00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:27,000
out to accomplish a goal. She reads a series of trials. She meets a series of friends to

144
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:35,720
help on those trials. And ultimately she gets what she wants. But it's actually a far more

145
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:44,160
complex. It's not complex. It's emotionally complex story. Much more so than you'd expect.

146
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:50,160
It's nuanced. Yes. It's much more nuanced story than it would appear on the surface.

147
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:55,640
So I think we've both made it clear. We like this book. You should give it a go. I think

148
00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:00,840
I particularly like it, I said, because it has this very simplistic questing outline,

149
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:06,080
but there's so much sort of, it takes all emotional turns, particularly in terms of

150
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,280
what you'd expect. Cause when you start reading it, I'm like, oh yeah, this is, you know,

151
00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:14,800
this is a kid's story. I've got it. But then it sort of gets a little bit self-referential.

152
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:20,560
It's like, we know what the fairy tale is and it plays with sort of the happy ending

153
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:26,840
in ways that I was like, Oh, I haven't actually read something like that in a book that felt

154
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:32,120
like this before. It definitely put me in mind of some of my favourite of sort of young

155
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:37,960
adult literature. Obviously I'm reading, I'm thinking, yeah, the Hobbit, like the Hobbit,

156
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:43,800
not Lord of the Rings. And a little bit maybe of House Moving Castle was coming through

157
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:49,560
from the world. Yeah, for sure. It has that breezy, magical, whimsical air to it. I definitely

158
00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:54,600
see what you see, what you mean with that. It feels like a, sometimes it feels a bit

159
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,880
like a Terry Pratchett novel without quite as much snark. It has moments when it comes

160
00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:04,440
to, I think you're talking about like the kind of comedy, cause it kind of plays, you

161
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,160
know, a bit of parody on some of the fantasy tropes, very Terry Pratchett. Absolutely.

162
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,880
Yeah. There was never a biting edge that I think was like, Oh, you're really trying to

163
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,600
make me laugh. It's more like we're going to play and recognise these tropes, but we're

164
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:23,080
not, we're not, I'm not actually here to get you laughing out loud. At least that definitely

165
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,720
didn't come across. Yeah. It's not satire. It's not like it's actually pointing its finger

166
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,600
and laughing at it. It's more like it's elbowing you in the cinema. You know, it's like saying,

167
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,200
Hey, how about this? You know? But most of all, Geordie, before we kind of go through

168
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,640
the characters and the plot events and the little mini episodes and quests that happen,

169
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:47,240
I think this book is just really beautifully written. That's so true. There was paragraphs

170
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:54,400
in this, which I had to stop and reread. Not so because I was my office and, Oh, my eyes

171
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:59,400
wondering, I got bored. What's happening? I just needed to kind of re go over from like

172
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:05,640
appreciate this visual metaphor that was being painted. There is almost a poetry to some

173
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:12,000
of the descriptions in this book where we really do take small moments where the characters

174
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:17,920
are in effect, they're just walking down a corridor. But the author expands this scene

175
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:23,120
out to a page and a half of just beautiful writing. And I don't think it ever gets because

176
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,360
I think there would be a risk you could hear that thing. Oh, God, is that can get tedious?

177
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,700
No, I think it always lands on the right side of it because what we're doing, it's not just

178
00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:37,400
describing the physical event in a very poetic way, but it's giving the moment to tell you

179
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:43,720
what the characters are feeling as this mundane thing or, you know, small moments is happening

180
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:50,760
in a very poetic way. Absolutely. I especially think of this one moment in the story where

181
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,680
it's the series of events about Prince Lír is visiting Molly in the kitchen to read the

182
00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:03,380
poetry that he's written. And then he then just setting the scene there and talking about

183
00:15:03,380 --> 00:15:10,320
time passing. It's done in such a beautifully soft, gentle way. And then it follows up with

184
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:18,480
this, this like brief confrontation on a stairway, which is so full of unstated emotion. And

185
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:24,820
it's just done in a way in which Beagle describes these two characters standing there facing

186
00:15:24,820 --> 00:15:29,880
each other. It's it's it's gorgeously done. I don't know this is an apt metaphor, but

187
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:35,840
I feel like if we've done, you know, Kings of the Wyld and it's rock guitar, I don't

188
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,200
know, you could see there's a bit of a minstrel on their lute when you're reading something

189
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,400
like maybe more like House of Moonshuttle. I would say it's a gentle oboe solo if I can

190
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:50,200
take if I can look to the famous song, The Last Unicorn, which was made a part of the

191
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,160
movie. Well, not actually being familiar with that. I was going to throw in a heart at this

192
00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:02,120
point. But yes, it has a famous adaptation. Geordie, I've not seen it. I haven't either

193
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:08,040
actually. I wanted to in advance of this episode. I've been a bit busy. I didn't get around

194
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:15,540
to it. Maybe we'll do the bonus episode at some point. I know it's… is it Rankin Bass animation?

195
00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:21,640
Is it? I actually I think you're right because I think basically I think it might be Rankin Bass

196
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,200
because I've heard that like a bunch of the people who made The Last Unicorn went on to

197
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:32,520
found Studio Ghibli. And I'm pretty sure that's true for Studio Ghibli. Like it came from

198
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:38,800
like people who used to work for Rankin Bass. It's, I'm sure a much more complicated wibbly

199
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:44,400
wobbly timeline. But I know the animation style that I've seen clips from puts me in

200
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:51,800
the same mind of the old, animated Hobbit, which I have seen. And there was a film. Oh

201
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:59,040
god, what was it called? I think it was called Dragon's Flight. You're right. It was, yes,

202
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:05,840
directed by Arthur Rankin and Julian Jules Bass. So definitely a Rankin Bass production

203
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:14,920
then. Yes, it's a Rankin Bass production. Speaking of the Hobbit movie, slightly parallel to

204
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:19,920
that. Did you know that Peter S. Beagle was the guy who wrote the screen one of the two

205
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:26,560
guys who wrote the screenplay that was used for the Bakshi version of Lord of the Rings?

206
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:35,360
Oh, what the, the animated one? Yes, the what's his name? Baskin? The chap who did it. I have

207
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:40,800
also seen that. Ralph Bakshi. I did not, I did, I had no idea Peter S. Beagle was involved.

208
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,800
Yeah, hopefully he wasn't the guy who didn't know how to write Aruman. Oh god, yeah. No,

209
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,720
it's a really weird, it's an adaptation which I don't think the scripts are what they try

210
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:59,200
and do. They try and get to get Two Towers and Fellowship into a single two-hour experience. And for me to

211
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,880
be honest, it's not the script that I think actually completely botches it. I think it's

212
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:09,160
actually quite good. The animation in that film does not sit well with me. I don't know

213
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:14,960
quite what it is. Yeah. I think I heard that they filmed live actors and traced over them,

214
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,840
but there are definitely scenes where there are just live actors and it's, I don't know,

215
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:25,800
feels a bit icky. Yes, it's famously weird and sometimes unsettling, but it has it has

216
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:31,720
a strong suit. And I think part of that is some actors performances and, and the script

217
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,960
itself, like there's a line and I hope Peter S. Beagle wrote this, there's a line in the

218
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,840
Ralph Bakshi version, which doesn't exist, I believe in any other version of the Lord

219
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:49,580
of the Rings, which is after Gandalf falls to the Balrog and they're on the steps of

220
00:18:49,580 --> 00:18:55,640
Moria on the other side, someone says, but there is no hope. And Aragorn says, then we

221
00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:03,640
must do without hope. There is always vengeance. Oh gosh. I love that. Do you know what, I

222
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,600
was actually going to cast in and be like, my favourite bit about that version is how

223
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:17,080
they do Aragorn. Like that version of the character has just such an edge. Okay. What

224
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,120
was I saying? Well, I'll say one more thing before we get to the book, which is that in

225
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:27,080
addition to writing the screenplay for the screenplay for Lord of the Rings, the animated

226
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,880
version, he also wrote the teleplay for one of my favourite episodes of Star Trek, the

227
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:38,040
next generation, Sarek, a great episode. So I can't speak to that one. That's not triple.

228
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:46,320
So haven't seen it. That's the one where Spock's dad gets dementia. Oh, well that's sad. Yeah, it's

229
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,080
sad. It is a sad episode, but it's also extremely touching. Did he only write that one? Or was

230
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:57,280
he? Sorry. Right. Yeah. Back to the last year. I believe he only wrote that one. Yes. So,

231
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,320
okay. Let's go. We said it's beautiful. It's wonderfully written, but it's also got filled

232
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:06,880
with some really lovely characters. And I think these characters do well, Beagle does

233
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,720
a main job of these characters by having them both being quite surface level and then hinting

234
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:16,560
at an incredible level of depth. And I think the first one is obviously is the unicorn

235
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:23,920
herself. Yeah, just called the unicorn. Well, until a certain point, I guess. I think this

236
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,280
is an excellent portrayal. Firstly, I love the physical description of the unicorn, not

237
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:32,760
just being a horse with a horn. It's going to having sort of like deer legs, a more elongated

238
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:38,120
neck, the eyes of apparently a slightly more long alliance tail as mentioned. Yeah. So

239
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:45,760
you're like, Oh, this is a mythological animal. It's not as of earthly, but also I do. So

240
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,560
I come back to poetic language, love the description that like the beauty that people see when

241
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:55,760
they look upon it is more so than what it just looks like. This is the embodiment of

242
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,520
like goodness and hope, hopes and this I don't actually maybe maybe it's not actually that

243
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:09,560
it's at least beauty. And I think a purity. Yeah, it definitely goes to a very like talking

244
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:16,160
old fashioned idea that like that which is good is beautiful. She is so beautiful because

245
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:23,680
she is so good. She represents like a better world. The world is worse and darker and crueller

246
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,800
because there's only one unicorn left. Which to be fair is is interesting enough on its

247
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:34,120
own. You know, I'm not necessarily obviously from a wider philosophical view. I'm like,

248
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:40,200
that doesn't quite right. Not necessarily happy with that. I would agree with you there.

249
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:45,100
But for the fantasy setup, and for the delivery of a story, I don't mind having very strong

250
00:21:45,100 --> 00:21:50,320
lines of this is good, because that's what I'm telling you as the author. You know, they're

251
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,960
good. This is pure for wiping is really interesting in that sort of goodness and purity is that

252
00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:02,280
the unicorn actually at quite a few points acts a bit aloof. Tad arrogance because she's

253
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:09,320
so good. Yeah, she always can't quite relate to the humans around her. Which is a key point

254
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:17,440
that I think is like one of the best motifs and themes throughout the book is the unicorn's

255
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:24,680
highness and and pureness is so great that as you say, she can't really connect to the

256
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,680
characters. She doesn't know what it's like to be human. She doesn't value humans properly.

257
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,920
She's, she's looking for the other unicorns, not because it's going to make the world a

258
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,920
better place. She's looking for them because you know, it's bad for the unicorns to be

259
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:44,280
gone her people are species. And that's kind of interesting because it's not this or puberty

260
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,240
this. I don't want to say self-centred. She's not being self-centred. She's trying to save

261
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:55,760
her entire species. That's a very noble act. But it's not for this. She's convinced of

262
00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,400
her own beauty and importance. She's like, I'm the most beautiful being in the world.

263
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,400
Quite matter of factly, and she might well be stating a fact.

264
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,120
Which then kind of makes it quite fun. But I also feel then that plays off against to

265
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:12,560
give us a character Molly, who we'll discuss a bit more later. The idea that she's so beautiful

266
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:18,400
and she's like, yeah, but you don't have to struggle like you. She's immortal as well.

267
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:24,720
So and this major factor later, you know, so she doesn't see how like, well, you know,

268
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,680
when she looks down at people, I often get like, yeah, well, they've got a lot going

269
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:38,520
on appreciate their meagre mortality, and that they can't naturally just be good. So

270
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,960
I like that having that kind of feel arrogant tone.

271
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:48,440
I think we should circle back to like the unicorns arc in this story, because while

272
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,620
she is like the central character, and at times she is like the main character, there

273
00:23:53,620 --> 00:24:00,040
are two characters I think really fulfil the role of protagonist. So let's start with

274
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:05,560
even though Schmendrick appears first, I think we should start with Molly, because I feel

275
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:12,920
like we can talk about her without going too much into like the actual plot things that

276
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,520
happen. But also because she's my favorite character in the book.

277
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:22,720
Oh, she's absolutely wonderful. Molly is as far as I'm concerned, the every person.

278
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:30,720
She's the most I personally feel open to be self insert. If you feel that that's the unicorn,

279
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:36,240
good for you. But Molly's different. She's had the hardest life. She's has no magical

280
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,960
destinies around her. She's not a wizard, magician of any type. She's just sort of,

281
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,960
I don't know, appreciative.

282
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,080
A nondescriptly older woman.

283
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:52,220
Which is a really important detail. In fairness, actually, for my most, I think one of early

284
00:24:52,220 --> 00:24:58,360
on the big first big emotional gut punch is when Molly first sees the unicorn, and she

285
00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:03,000
lets out this amazing lament. I was like, did you have that to hand?

286
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:08,160
I do indeed. It's a lengthy section. So I'll cut it down some more. But it begins with

287
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:14,480
Where have you been? She cried, damn you. Where have you been? Two steps foot to one

288
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:20,360
of the blah, blah, blah. I'm here now. She said at last she being the unicorn. And what

289
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:26,080
good is it to me that you're here now? Where were you 20 years ago? 10 years ago? How dare

290
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,560
you? How dare you come to me now when I am this?

291
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,600
With a flap of her hand, she summed herself up. Baron face, desert eyes, and yellowing

292
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,880
heart. I wish you had never come. Why did you come now? The tears began to slide down

293
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,280
the sides of her nose.

294
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:49,040
The unicorn made no reply and Schmendrick said she is the last. She is The Last Unicorn in

295
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:54,400
the world. She would be, Molly sniffed. It would be The Last Unicorn in the world that

296
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,680
would come to Molly Gru.

297
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,800
Okay, can you start to start just saying that? So well-

298
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:05,720
It's beautiful. It's so beautiful. Unicorns are supposed to come to maidens and princesses.

299
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:12,680
And when she shows up to Molly, she's like, why now? Why when I can't be anything special?

300
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,040
When I'm all done and withered up?

301
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:22,600
I love the power in this, Men. I do think it's really great to see the stories, firstly,

302
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,800
older characters being given a bit more of the spotlight.

303
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:27,800
And it's-

304
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:28,800
Sure, yeah, absolutely.

305
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,240
And this is what we're talking about when it flies in the face of fairytale tropes,

306
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,120
but not in that kind of snarky way. This is hugely emotional and impactful. Why aren't

307
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:41,640
you following the fairytale? Why didn't you come to me when I was a young girl, whatever

308
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,520
her old role was? And you were meant to lift me up at a young age and set me upon my magical

309
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,600
adventure.

310
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:54,640
As dark and sorrowful as that opening passage was, it does end with her saying, I forgive

311
00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:02,560
you. And actually, Molly's role throughout the story is the person who cares for the

312
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:09,520
unicorn the most. She's her ardent defender, and she's always working for the unicorn's

313
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:10,520
benefit.

314
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:16,400
Well, she's the heart of the team. She's the one that pretty much everyone goes to

315
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:22,960
to talk to, to confide in, because it's actually incredibly hard to talk to the unicorn.

316
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:29,720
Yup. Unicorn's a bit above it all. Molly's got a good head on her shoulders. She's sensible.

317
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:37,040
She's capable. When she takes over as a servant at King Haggard's castle, there's a humorous

318
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,840
bit where they describe that, and these are all the jobs she had to do. I mean, it lists

319
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:47,720
every possible job that could be done in the castle. And the funny thing about it is just

320
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:53,660
that, yeah, well, Molly can do all those things. She's not superhuman. She's not a wizard.

321
00:27:53,660 --> 00:27:57,480
But she can get on and she can take care of stuff that needs to be taken care of. And

322
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:03,600
her being there and her being inquisitive and kind and dependable is what helps her

323
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,820
save the day in the end.

324
00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:10,840
I think I really also enjoy, and this is jumping quite a bit ahead, there's a bit with Molly

325
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:16,960
near the end where, and I mean, the very, we're talking the last three pages, where

326
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:22,360
Molly and Schmendrick are going to ride off into the sunset. And there is a description

327
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:26,920
of Molly where, you know, it says, you know, she lets her hair down and in that moment,

328
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:34,680
you know, she was more beautiful than, I wouldn't want to say the unicorn. It's like, hmm, whatever

329
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,280
was and you're like, you know, she's more beautiful than she'd ever appeared before.

330
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,960
I think that's a really nice statement, not the fence that it's because Molly has physically

331
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,400
kind of changed, but it's the fact that she's gone to the point where she is, I interpret

332
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,400
at least, seeing her let her down and she's finally had this release. He's, you know,

333
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,640
she can freely embrace life and adventure. And that's what's given her this look. It

334
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,600
wasn't about the age. It was the, the, the rot of life that she found herself in. And

335
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,920
because we find her hanging out, you know, with brigands in the woods, is that where

336
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,540
you want it to be, Molly? Very much not.

337
00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:13,120
The other main character to talk about is the character of Schmendrick. And Schmendrick

338
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:21,320
is, is a very strange character because it's so easy, I think, to get it wrong in describing

339
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:28,200
him. So first things first, Schmendrick is a wizard, but he's not a very good wizard.

340
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:35,360
Schmendrick is simultaneously the young, not very good journeyman's wizard. And at the

341
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:41,320
same time, the ancient wise, all powerful, all knowledgeable, I know what needs to be

342
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:48,840
done man. And that's, that's, yes. But I think what this does really well for Schmendrick,

343
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:54,440
at least from, you know, going through it is that it's never quite clear to me as a

344
00:29:54,440 --> 00:30:00,440
reader what there is when he's playing the part and when we're seeing a little bit of

345
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:07,000
the true Schmendrick. I think exactly because he speaks confidently about matters of magic

346
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:13,560
and he seems to know a lot of things, but he also sometimes is just kind of an idiot.

347
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:20,040
Yeah. He messes up in this. He, there's lovely descriptions where they, he's the gleamant,

348
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:26,040
he's a bit of a time term, the travelman in towns and he performs magic tricks and he

349
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,080
says how he drops his juggling balls and it was sort of good enough to get them the meal

350
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,040
or what have you. But then they don't, he talks about the deep magic and he's that,

351
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,160
has that insight about what the unicorn and what the story has to be and where they're

352
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,880
going. And it's really hard to get a pin on his character because I genuinely don't know,

353
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:49,220
even having finished the book, other than the fact that Schmendrick is genuinely nice

354
00:30:49,220 --> 00:30:59,160
and good hearted. I would say so. What his actual motivations and like wants are. He

355
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:05,240
sort of falls into the quest and you're like, okay, you're here. How much do you care? Cause

356
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,200
it's not like Molly. Molly loves the unicorn. We know that. But with Schmendrick it's a little

357
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,280
bit like just coming along. Is it for you? Is it for her?

358
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,880
Yeah. That's the interesting thing about it, which is that he falls in with the unicorn

359
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,840
because they just happen to be in the same bad situation. And I think that it's just

360
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,480
the sort of programming of it being a fairy tale. But I kind of assume that Schmendrick

361
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,480
was a good guy. I mean, he did try and free the unicorn after all. Like he recognized

362
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:38,720
that it was wrong to keep her in captivity and he was brave in trying to do so. But ultimately

363
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:44,440
at a certain point, Molly says like, you don't care if I had anything except magic. I kind

364
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:50,360
of realized that that's, that's true. Like he freed the unicorn because she's magical

365
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,880
and he was interested in her and he wanted to protect her for that reason. He didn't

366
00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:00,920
want to do it because she was a person who needs to be helped.

367
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:07,400
Yes. But then also no, because in that same statement, I read that when Schmendrick replies,

368
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:13,520
yes, I am only interested in that, you know, it's almost sardonic. I think he's and later

369
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,680
on when he says, you know, I never really, you know, I didn't love you as much as then.

370
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,200
I personally think you could read that as him being a little bit disingenuous and he

371
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,880
sort of hiding how soft he is.

372
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,520
Yes, I agree that it's, I definitely don't think it's sardonic, but I agree that it's

373
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:35,280
like he's saying, yes, I don't care about anything magic. And he's being dishonest.

374
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,680
Like he wants that to be the case. He wants to be this powerful, wise magician. And he

375
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:48,440
feels like if he is only focused on magic, that's how he could accomplish it. You're

376
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:54,000
right that he is still true. I think that he doesn't love the unicorn to the same extent

377
00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:03,520
as Molly and Lír. Lír definitely loves the unicorn more than him, but nonetheless, Schmendrick

378
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:10,200
himself, like the story that he follows is that he wants to become a better wizard and

379
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:15,720
he has the power to become a better wizard, but he only manages to accomplish that by,

380
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:22,080
you know, not trying to be a better wizard. He does it by trying to do the right thing.

381
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,800
And that's, it's not really a lesson he has to learn. Like, of course I should have known

382
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:31,400
all along. It's just that it's like, it's the classic, the magic comes to him when he

383
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:38,680
needs it and he needs it not to save himself, but to save the unicorn, to save the unicorns.

384
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,320
Right, right. And one other kind of point on Schmendrick is because it obviously links

385
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:51,280
deeply into the unicorn, which we haven't mentioned, he's immortal. Small point. I keep

386
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:56,280
forgetting that. I genuinely do. It's never brought up in a physical sense. It's not like

387
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:02,000
he ever gets stabbed and doesn't kill over. It's just that he, or at least I don't actually

388
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,240
know if that was how it would work. Again, not presented, but he does an age. He was

389
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:13,240
cursed by his wizarding teacher that he will never age until he's bloody decent at what

390
00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:17,440
he's up to, which I'm not going to lie. It's the face of the curse. It is the greatest

391
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:23,240
blessing you could ever have. You've got eternity to become good at this. Go along.

392
00:34:23,240 --> 00:34:26,840
Once you're good at it, you'll fucking die. Oh, actually, no, that's pretty good. There's

393
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,760
something poetic about that being like telling an artist, like you will only die once you

394
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,920
complete your greatest work. And at a certain point, the artist who lives for their work

395
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,760
keeps creating like beautiful works of art and they don't die, which means there must

396
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:48,120
be something even better for them, which they haven't created yet. That's a good story.

397
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,280
I'm going to edit that out. I don't want other people getting my ideas.

398
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,160
And it's a great contrast to the unicorn. The unicorn, which we'll go on to in a minute,

399
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:02,040
has their own brush up against mortality. So it's really fun to have a character who's

400
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,280
chasing mortality. You know, they want to progress. They don't want their life to be

401
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,920
stuck in this point. They can't move forward with their life and their career until they

402
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,400
achieve this thing. And the fact that that means they're going to die, I don't think

403
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:21,680
it really bothers Schmendrick at all because death will come to all. What it actually means

404
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:27,040
is he can finally become the old wise wizard, which you can't do when you perpetually look

405
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:36,120
22. Peter Beagle was 22 when he wrote this novel. Oh God. Isn't that crazy? 22 years

406
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:44,440
old. That's really good. I'm sorry. I've just gone more perspective now. 22. Was this

407
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,080
even his first work? No, this was his like second work. I think he wrote something else

408
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:57,000
before this. That he pulled his heart into this. And I think what's really important,

409
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,400
like looking at this book compared to a lot of maybe more modern literature that we've

410
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:08,480
been reading, is that the focus is purely, not purely, that's a lie. What makes this

411
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:14,600
really stand out is the fact that it's kept the fundamentals as simple. The story is simple.

412
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:21,800
It's not complicated. It's not politics. It's not morally gray. It's not an epic of 600

413
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:32,520
pages. It's just really well written. I tell a lie. I think he started writing at 22. He

414
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:41,200
wrote this when he was 29. So I still have time. I have like four whole months. Come

415
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,560
on. We've talked about the three most important characters. There are a couple more we can

416
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,400
cover, but we can't talk about them without talking about the plot circumstances under

417
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:59,160
which they appear. So the unicorn is searching for her people, the other unicorns. And at

418
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:04,640
a certain point on their journey, they learn that the unicorns were chased away by the

419
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:13,560
red bull. And the red bull is under control of King Haggard. So they take their quest

420
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:22,160
to Haggard's kingdom. They visit the town of Haggate. And we discover some key details

421
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:29,160
in this section. We learn that firstly, there's a couple of curses going about that a son

422
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:37,440
of Haggate will ultimately destroy them all, the castle, the king, and their town's prospects.

423
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:43,840
And that the people of Haggate and all their loveliness decided no more babies to prevent

424
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,440
this curse coming true. Just the people, by the way, this wasn't Haggard's idea. This

425
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,800
is the people when we don't want our prospects going down, no babies, to the point of which

426
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,920
when a baby rocks up, they're like, let's just leave it in the freezing snow and that

427
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:05,080
will take care of that. But this baby is rescued by the noble King Haggard. And he takes the

428
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:15,960
baby and raises it as his son and prince and heir, Prince Lír. Lír. L-I-R. I pronounced

429
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:25,960
it Lír the whole time. Yeah, it wasn't Ler from the planet Omicron 8. Yes, so the curse,

430
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,320
as I remember it being, maybe you can correct me if I'm slightly wrong here, there's a

431
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:37,000
couple of curses at play. The first one is that King Haggard is cursed to never be happy.

432
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:43,560
Is that right? I'm not sure if that actually is specifically a curse on him. I think he

433
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,800
is never happy, but I don't know if that was the curse. Just his attitude. King Haggard

434
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,960
himself is the main villain of the story, unless I guess you count the red ball, but

435
00:38:53,960 --> 00:39:01,720
it's not really a character. King Haggard is the king of all unhappiness. He cannot be happy.

436
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:07,520
Anything he does to try and make himself happy, he eventually gets bored of. He's incapable

437
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:16,080
of actually being content or finding the value in anything. Yes, he's a really interesting

438
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:22,520
character because this story, going into actually what I said earlier about it not being complicated

439
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:27,920
and not having any politics and all that, it doesn't actually go deep into lore. This

440
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:33,840
is very much the fairy tale kingdom. We're not diving on its history and there's certainly

441
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:40,400
no maps abound. All we get is that this king, King Haggard, came across the sea, got a witch

442
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,480
to build his castle and sort of just set up camp. We don't get his background. All we

443
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:51,440
learn about him is that the red ball, the magical creature that serves him, serves him

444
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:58,400
because he has no fear. I think that's the line he gives. And that's it. And that it

445
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,720
will do whatever he wants it to do to make him happy, wherever his desire is.

446
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:08,160
Oh, I finally understand something about the ending. Yeah. Yes, right. And-

447
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:09,600
What do you do with that?

448
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,480
Yeah, I got a little click there because something in it was like-

449
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:13,480
I'm glad that little click-

450
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,520
Yes, I'm glad it happens, but I'm not really sure. But now I know for certain. Okay, so

451
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:25,240
King Haggard is the villain because he has gotten Red Bull to get rid of all the unicorns.

452
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:30,960
We don't know why. It takes a long time for this to be unpacked and made clear. And the

453
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:37,280
reason why it happens is that he wanted the unicorns, he wanted to collect them because

454
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:43,820
he thought it might make him happy. And it did for a little while. And the Red Bull herded

455
00:40:43,820 --> 00:40:50,240
all the unicorns into the sea. And they're still there, invisible to everyone except

456
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:56,080
him, thrashing around, trying to get back to shore, but too afraid of the Red Bull to

457
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:03,080
actually approach. So they're stuck there, immortal, forever.

458
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:11,240
What a fate. The magic around the Red Bull is very loose, it's very soft. And I'll be

459
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:13,720
honest with you, Geordie, I was wrapping my head-

460
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:15,960
It's not clear what the Bull is itself?

461
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:21,360
No, I was going left and right on this, trying to work out what the larger metaphor was meant

462
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,800
to be. I'm like, okay, there's clearly- there must be something here, but I can't quite-

463
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:32,200
I'm like, the Red Bull is described as, well, it's terrifying and it's all powerful and

464
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:38,680
everyone across the land talks about it. But it doesn't have its own wants. Its wants are

465
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:43,440
only what Haggard wants. It serves the person with no fear, but also really interesting

466
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:50,600
if you get near the climax, the Red Bull doesn't really fight either. It's all about fear and

467
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:51,600
bluster.

468
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:52,600
No.

469
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:53,880
It conquers, it does not fight.

470
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:59,640
It's like a sheepdog, it herds. Yes, conquer is a word that it uses, that's right.

471
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,600
And I was literally saying then, like, what does it mean? And I'm really sorry, because

472
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,160
obviously if you're listening to this podcast, you might be hoping that I'm going to give

473
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,000
you some depth into the text and you'll be like, oh, thank you Duncan for expanding on

474
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,480
it. And I'll literally sit here like, I don't know what it means. I can't quite- I don't

475
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,280
quite sure. Scheming conditions?

476
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:21,840
Yeah, I had to assume that it was sort of like a desire to control, a desire to take

477
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:29,020
things selfishly. Like, it's a sort of manifestation of King Haggard's greed, but he wants to keep

478
00:42:29,020 --> 00:42:35,400
these unicorns and it's uncompromising. So yeah, in my view, in the same way that like

479
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,800
the unicorns represent all that is good, this red bull is their opposite. It represents

480
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,880
all that is wicked and evil.

481
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:50,600
When I was watching a music video for The Last Unicorn song, my partner walked up behind

482
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:55,400
me, looked over my shoulder, pointed the red bull and said, what is that thing? And me,

483
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:01,440
having not finished a book yet, shrugged and said, I don't know, Satan maybe?

484
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:07,200
I mean, fair. I think there's definitely an element there that links the red bull back

485
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:14,200
to the fact that it says Haggard because Haggard has no fear. So it's only control is fear.

486
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,440
It's not an actual threat. I couldn't quite pin that into the real world, but I think

487
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,560
it's a nice motif for a villain anyway. That, you know, the only thing to fear is fear itself.

488
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:29,280
Oh, it's very Dune actually. I see, I see where we're going now.

489
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:34,720
And overcoming a bit, I'm jumping way too near the end. So we've got to roll back because

490
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:39,160
there are other points I want to hit on before I get to this next bit.

491
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,480
Exactly. So, and I think to do that, we need to talk about Prince Lír. So King Haggard

492
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:53,320
is his father. Prince Lír is this boy who is raised by Haggard in his castle and who

493
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:59,200
is extremely important in the latter part of the book in terms of getting the unicorn

494
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:05,480
to complete her arc. I guess really what we need to say is right before they get to Haggate

495
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:11,120
is they are confronted by the red bull. It shows up and it chases down the unicorn in

496
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:19,400
a very beautiful scene. It's incredibly well written and Molly begs Schmendrick to save

497
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,120
the unicorn somehow, to use his magic. And for the first time, he actually manages to

498
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:31,600
come into his own and he casts a spell to change the unicorn. And there's this great

499
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:37,200
thing in this book, this great theme, which says like how like crazy it is to actually

500
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:43,720
change something, to change something's nature and how one thing after it's been changed

501
00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:51,520
can't possess the same attributes that it used to. He changes the unicorn from being

502
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:59,400
a unicorn into being a woman, a mouthier, lady a mouthier. And the unicorn is gutted

503
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,440
by this, even though it saves her from the red bull. It can't chase her anymore because

504
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:09,960
it's looking for a unicorn, not a woman. And she's outraged by this because previously

505
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:15,920
she was perfect. She was the best thing in the world. And now she's some lady. Yes, very

506
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,880
beautiful, but not as beautiful as a unicorn.

507
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:25,040
Yes, and the kind of implication here, there is actually a backstory. This is foreshadowing

508
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:31,760
the book. Schmendrick tells the unicorn a story of his master, Nikos, doing a similar thing

509
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:38,360
and the talks of, you know, you can't go back once you have no life, not as a unicorn.

510
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:43,760
So we get a set of how devastating this is going to be, but it's also the part where

511
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:49,480
the unicorn really starts their arc. She now has this moment to like, okay, I've almost

512
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:55,080
looked down on humans for not being as perfect as me. Now I am one. Now I've got to slowly

513
00:45:55,080 --> 00:46:04,360
learn to relate and appreciate humanity a tad more, bit by bit.

514
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:10,920
Well, not quite, because what it kind of sounds like you're saying is a much less nuanced

515
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:17,200
story. That would be something like, there are plenty of movies made about like angels

516
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:22,960
who turn into human beings and learn to appreciate life as a lesser being. This isn't about-

517
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,920
Actually, Geordie, can I just stop you there and say what this actually is?

518
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:30,520
That would be, you said movies about angels. No, this is any film where some like rich

519
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:35,320
person ends up slumming it a bit and then discovers, oh, it's actually quite nice down

520
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:42,720
on the working classes, like Titanic style. That would be what that would be. Can't stand

521
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:45,960
it, don't like it. Anyway, but it's not that. It is better.

522
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:55,760
I hear what you're saying. Yes. But the more significant thing is that once you're a human,

523
00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:00,520
you aren't a unicorn anymore and you start to lose the things about you that make you

524
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:06,200
a unicorn. So she had, when she first transformed, she still has like some of her magical powers,

525
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:13,280
but not all of them. And she loses the one she does have, but she also loses her memories

526
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:19,080
of being a unicorn. She slowly forgets. And once you've forgotten something, well, you

527
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:26,000
aren't that thing anymore. So at a certain point, she is just a human and a quite confused

528
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,000
one at that.

529
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:32,520
I think there's a small section where she even talks about, you know, better to have

530
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:39,760
died as a perfect unicorn. And then at least I would have existed, you know, forever as

531
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:46,680
that untainted. God, how dare she be tainted. The gold star unicorn. Now she's tainted by

532
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:52,840
humanity. But this then leads us on to the last third of the book. I love that some of

533
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,080
the, we've really jumped over the literal questing episodes. They're all quite good.

534
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,520
There's a harpy, a tree that falls off of the man and some Robin Hood bits, but this

535
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,000
is where the real heart is.

536
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,720
Yeah. I liked the zoo at the beginning. That was interesting. But yes, I have deliberately

537
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:13,200
stepped over those because they're not going to actually enrich our discussion of what

538
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:19,040
the book is like, like or about their fun adventures and they're likable enough, but

539
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,080
it's not what the book's about.

540
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,880
No. And you, they were, they're only really, as we talk about the literal episodes, they're

541
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,600
only actually there to introduce the relevant characters fundamentally to the story.

542
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:35,120
Yeah. It's like journey to the West. They introduce the different members of the gang.

543
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:42,400
So we get to Haggard's castle and we meet Prince Leia and Haggard. And I really like

544
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:48,520
these, this first initial interaction because talking about the comedy side of things, this

545
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:54,480
is actually the only bit that maybe kind of did get chuckle out of me is that we meet

546
00:48:54,480 --> 00:49:01,440
the two guards out front doing a little, little routine. Who's that? What are you doing here?

547
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,600
Gosh, isn't she beautiful? We want to meet the king. Fine. I'll take you to the king.

548
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,560
And these two guys march off. There's an older one and a younger one. And then they throw

549
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:16,800
the doors open to the disheveled throne room in Schmendrick’s like the king wouldn't possibly

550
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:22,840
be here. And then the old guard just turns around and goes, I am King Haggard. I'm too

551
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,440
cheap to pay for another guard.

552
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:31,520
It is a good bit actually. I like that. But yeah. Um, and Prince Leia, his introduction

553
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:38,920
to the unicorn is not as the unicorn. It says Lady Amalthea, her human alter ego, and he

554
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:45,640
falls in love with her at first sight because again, this is a fairy tale and very explicitly,

555
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,720
this is what she should brought up later, which is that the reason why he's fallen in

556
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:55,960
love with her so hard, so fast is that he's lived his whole life in King Haggard's castle,

557
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:02,640
which sucks. Like there's nothing nice there. He doesn't have anything to make him happy.

558
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,600
There's nothing there for him to enjoy or people for him to meet. So when he sees this

559
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:14,120
incredibly beautiful woman, he says, it's like I was brought to life for the first time.

560
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,280
Now this is a bit of an interesting moment though, Geordie, because the character of

561
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:22,360
Prince Leia is actually introduced earlier on to have already been engaged.

562
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:26,000
That was so, yeah, that bit.

563
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,880
It's a little detail. It's like you're not meant to think about it, but it is one of

564
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,560
those ones where you went, that was a curious bit to be slotted in there because that does

565
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:38,000
fly slightly in the face of what we're chatting about. But, and then my brain-

566
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:43,800
It does feel a teeny bit first drafty that, you know, like Prince Leia did show up earlier

567
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:49,000
and then like kind of teleports into a different part of the book.

568
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:53,360
I just like that connection. So we meet Prince Leia, not knowing it's him, with another woman

569
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,760
earlier on in the book in one of his little episodes, but it's just the prince in that

570
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,760
scene. And then later he's like, I was the prince from that scene and I've broken my

571
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,240
engagement off with that woman you saw me with. I'm like, you didn't have to be related.

572
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:08,060
I don't think it adds to the point and brings up way too many questions about Haggard's

573
00:51:08,060 --> 00:51:13,200
attempts at geopolitics in this kingdom. And I don't need, we don't need, but anyway.

574
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,720
So you were reading a magazine. What the fuck?

575
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:20,400
Oh my gosh, yeah. Oh, too many questions.

576
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,120
What year is it?

577
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:24,120
Prince Leia has a magazine.

578
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:29,480
No, it's the classic like once and future king shit where it's like, that's a version

579
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,360
of King Arthur where like people go to Eton. It's like, don't think about it. Don't think

580
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,920
about it. Does this exist in a time and place? No, shut up.

581
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,360
But we get this lovely scene and along the lines of it, I actually thought just going

582
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:45,680
back to that little comedy bit at the start, I know it's meant to be how awful Haggard

583
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:51,320
is and like, you know, how down-trodden they all are in his castle. I did, a bit of me

584
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:56,040
think it almost came across as kind of sweet that he literally spent his day standing guard

585
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,080
with his son. For the little cute.

586
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:05,640
Yeah, but it wasn't horse and father-son bonding activity. He's just too cheap.

587
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:10,760
Quite right, quite right. As we learn later, there are but four men at arms in this castle.

588
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,680
And until Molly came, no other servants.

589
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,800
Just enough to think, maybe you'll think there's actually an army there.

590
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:21,840
Again, lovely tie-in. It's not about actually having any power. It's the fear of it. Good

591
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,800
little linking with the red ball there.

592
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:26,480
But yes, they come here.

593
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:27,960
Oh, Duncan, you're on fire today.

594
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:33,120
I know, I know, my very best. So they come to the castle and Schmendrick spins his tail.

595
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,440
Again, actually, I think one of the more funny scenes where Schmendrick convinces Haggard to

596
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:43,200
take him on as his court magician and fire the other bloke who has a proper tantrum about

597
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:44,200
it.

598
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:49,800
Yeah, he shows him and says, listen, I'm not a very good wizard. And you have a much better

599
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:55,400
one on staff now. But you should fire him and hire me because you have a really competent

600
00:52:55,400 --> 00:53:00,560
magician and he hasn't made you happy. So maybe I will.

601
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:05,600
Just incredible logic. Just like that bit, we're talking about like Terry Pratchettisms.

602
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,680
That was a little bit of Terry Pratchettisms of like fluctuating logic.

603
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:11,720
Oh yeah, that's something that, no, I was Douglas Adams. That's something that Ford

604
00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:13,040
Prefect would say.

605
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,720
Yes, you're right. Right in with hitchhikers.

606
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:21,240
I should try that in a job interview. So why should we hire you? You know nothing. And

607
00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:26,040
previously you've hired people who knew something. Did they get the job done?

608
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:32,600
Right. So that's the guy and he accepts and they come into the castle. And what plays

609
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,120
out next is actually meant to be over quite a time span. I think there's a number of months

610
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,040
there in sort of wintering in this castle.

611
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:44,880
Oh yeah, it's a long period of time. There's like two, three separate time skips, because

612
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:51,280
there's a period of time where Prince Lír is trying to like woo the Lady Amalthea. And

613
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,120
he does this by doing all the stuff you'd expect from a prince in fairy tales. He's

614
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:59,080
like saying, I brought her three separate dragon heads and she still doesn't return

615
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,080
my affections.

616
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:06,400
Prince Lír, I think this character could so very easily come across as arrogant and

617
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,960
unlikable and too presumptuous.

618
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:13,720
Exactly. It started off from like, I'm so wary of this guy because I think he's going

619
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:19,280
to be a total tool. I'm so surprised they come round on him really fast. And I think

620
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,640
it's just because he's kind of awkward himbo.

621
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:28,560
I think what they do really well is that they establish that, I say it's not his fault,

622
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:33,280
he has been effectively indoctrinated into the one way of doing things. He's sat there

623
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:38,040
and he's like, this is the only, he like laments to Molly. He's like, I don't, I know no other

624
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:43,880
ways. This is the only way people have ever told me I can woo a woman. I'm a hero. This

625
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:48,440
is what I do. And so that's, that kind of-

626
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:53,080
When Molly says, maybe you should try writing some poetry. He's like, yeah, I'll do that

627
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:58,080
right now. And then he immediately starts writing extremely bad poetry.

628
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:01,560
And then that makes him more endearing. The fact that he's open to new ideas. I think

629
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,560
that's the crux, I think, which keeps him on the right side. That since he like has a

630
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:10,080
bit, someone goes with a different idea, he's like, sure, I'll give that a go.

631
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:15,880
And it's not like I'm ever like, hell yeah, Prince Lír and the unicorn should get together.

632
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,800
But I do think it's sweet in the end how it goes, you know?

633
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,920
I do too. And finally, we've caught up to that moment when we were chatting about the

634
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:28,120
Red Bull earlier and I was like, okay, we've got to back up. We've got to back up. Yeah.

635
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:34,400
It gets really sweet because I think what we see here is the almost what could have

636
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:42,840
been as the unicorn becomes more human. And I like the fact that they never really, they

637
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:47,760
talk about them like falling in love and Lír is very much in love with the unicorn or Lady

638
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:52,600
and Amalthea. And I thought that, I don't think it's made clear that they like don't even

639
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,280
ever really touch, like hold hands.

640
00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:03,280
No, no, they, they explicitly don't, I think. Like, even at the very end, like as they're

641
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:09,760
facing the Red Bull, Schmendrick like looks to them to hold hands and they don't. And

642
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,720
I think that's partly because like, it's like the unicorn's magic, she's holding back even

643
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:18,800
though she doesn't know why, because she expects her powers to have great consequence and she's

644
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,920
sort of afraid of the fact she doesn't have that power anymore.

645
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:28,080
See, no, I interpreted it as it's the human, it's a human response. Like, if you're two

646
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:32,560
people and you know, you're scared, you reach out to each other. So it's the fact that it's

647
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,960
that little bit of her true nature of being a unicorn that means she doesn't reach out

648
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:43,080
to another unicorns of established as being solitary creatures in this world. It's not

649
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:44,720
in her nature to reach out to someone.

650
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:48,680
We should make clear that it's like, it's instinctive this point, because at this point

651
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:54,640
Amalthea has no memory of being a human. She's been a human for pretty much many months,

652
00:56:54,640 --> 00:57:00,640
like seasons change in the meantime. She has no actual memory. She dreams of being a unicorn

653
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:04,960
and she doesn't know what she's dreaming about and these dreams frighten her. And that's

654
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:11,480
actually part of what like draws her to Lír is like some sense of safety with him that

655
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,440
would protect her from her own dreams.

656
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:21,760
Eventually, though, King Haggard figures out or has always known that she was a unicorn

657
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:31,360
and they managed to crack the riddle of how to how to get to his secret underground lair

658
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:39,120
where he keeps the red bull which which which keeps the unicorns captive. And I do like

659
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:44,960
the scene where they like managed to crack the riddle by like, sort of like bending the

660
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:49,760
rules a little bit of the way things like Do you remember what the riddle is itself?

661
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:55,480
What I remember is that I love a talking cat. And I love the fact when he goes, Can you

662
00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:01,280
all talk and they're just like, when we feel like it. Again, very difficult. Honestly,

663
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:08,440
I think actually the comedy actually really ticks up in like Haggard's castle.

664
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,520
I think you're right. I think it's because there isn't a lot of like adventure going

665
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:16,700
on if they get to just sort of sit around and chat. And it also just gets to be like

666
00:58:16,700 --> 00:58:21,120
Schmendrick just gets a lot sadder as a character now that he doesn't have to like do anything.

667
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:25,560
He was important before. And now he can't like progress or get better at magic. So he's

668
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:30,060
just sort of bumming around feeling sorry for himself. There's a good bit where they

669
00:58:30,060 --> 00:58:35,600
ask him how to spell miracle “how many Rs are there?” and he says “two, it’s from the same

670
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:37,600
root as mirror.”

671
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:45,160
Oh, it's really interesting. This book really has some very, that feel very distinct sections.

672
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:50,280
Like I do actually have to say that the way the book is written and pace just feels very

673
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:56,280
different at the point. I do feel like this book was written on a sort of a Tolkien style

674
00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:01,120
that grew in the telling. This might even predate Lord of the Rings. Definitely doesn't

675
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,240
predate the Hobbit. It was in the 50s.

676
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:04,240
It's from the 60s.

677
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:10,560
Okay, fair enough. So it doesn't predate any of that. But that the writing style was still

678
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:14,960
kind of like changing and chopping as we move through. So you put back to the riddle. Yes,

679
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:19,760
the cat and the skull. Let it upon me, Geordie.

680
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:26,800
Yes. So so I like this section because and I thought Fred, I don't remember the exact

681
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:33,800
wording of the riddle, but it's essentially three impossible things need to happen. Was

682
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:42,440
it the wine needs to drink itself? A skull needs to talk and clock needs to strike the

683
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:49,520
hour. And these things are impossible because one heads don't talk to wine can't drink

684
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:56,220
itself. And three, the clock in question is broken and like, can't be relied upon at all.

685
00:59:56,220 --> 00:59:59,580
It sometimes strikes like 17 o'clock.

686
00:59:59,580 --> 01:00:05,600
So how do they get around this Geordie? And the talking skull is quite straightforward.

687
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,880
They magic a skull to talk.

688
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:12,080
I think it always could talk. They just have to persuade it to, right?

689
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:16,440
You're quite right. It's actually been set there to guard the entrance to the Red Balls

690
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:17,440
cave.

691
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:23,200
Yeah, they just sort of need to convince it to talk by like, flashering it or like, or

692
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:31,480
persuading it or blackmailing it. And then the wine I didn't get, I just didn't understand

693
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:36,240
how Schmendrick like qualified that part of the riddle.

694
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:44,240
It was an empty wine bottle that he talks to the skull to drink to the memory of what

695
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:55,000
the skull remembered wine used to taste like. And that qualified as drinking itself. I think.

696
01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:01,920
I think that might be right. But I don't understand why that fulfils the qualification. And then

697
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,160
they just walked through the clock. The clock just was like,

698
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:10,920
No, that was another major factor. The fact that the wine seemed unrelated to opening

699
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:15,680
the passageway, you just had to sort of know you could walk through the clock and walk

700
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,040
through it. And you'd be magically teleported somewhere.

701
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:23,800
I guess it was just like a series of quite bad instructions, really, as opposed to like,

702
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:28,240
a series of things you had to accomplish. But yes, they walk through the clock and that

703
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:33,720
leads them to the final confrontation. They have to get past the Red Ball. King Haggard

704
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:40,880
is after them. He's been alerted by the skull that they're intruding. And this leads

705
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:48,080
to a really beautiful end to the story. There's a lot of the beautifulness this book is, the

706
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:54,440
climax and the ending are some of the strongest of any book we've read so far.

707
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:58,800
I'm very inclined to agree. One thing I did notice is that these last couple of chapters

708
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:03,560
did get significantly longer as the book went on. That's true.

709
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:09,560
And not that it's like a bad thing in any way. But I do think this book benefits from

710
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:15,600
such a strong ending. Like, it finishes on such a powerful note, like full on 10 out

711
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:22,480
of 10, that maybe some of the earlier sections, if I'd ranked like seven or eight out of 10,

712
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,600
don't matter at this point. This is a 10 out of 10 experience.

713
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:31,360
Totally, yeah. Yeah, the full experience of reading a book is so strong that the whole

714
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:36,040
part of it feels elevated. I'm just saying that in comparison quickly,

715
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:39,720
this is the same way though, that I might say like, I love The Hobbit. The Hobbit's

716
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:43,360
one of my favourite books of all time. But with The Hobbit, I wouldn't say that the ending

717
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:47,720
is the clincher that brings it all together. I actually often think it's a little bit of

718
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:51,360
a dull letdown. Once the dragon's dealt with, I find the books, you know, you've got to

719
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:56,480
get to the end. It's the little episodes that just make it. The trolls, riddles in the dark,

720
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:01,160
those are the high points. Whereas this is very much not that case.

721
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:06,000
They really ended The Hobbit where he goes back home with Gandalf and Bjorn for a certain

722
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:12,200
part of the way. And they say, his journey home was not without event. The wild was still

723
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:17,240
the wild. But obviously it was so unimportant and uninteresting to Tolkien himself that

724
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:20,520
he's just like, ah, da da da da da da da da, move over that.

725
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:24,240
Great ending in its own way, but not the same as this one. So we finally caught back up

726
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:28,400
to what I was talking about earlier. Want something I really like? So we're descending

727
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:34,960
just to set the scene, people. The castle is on the bluffs above the sea. So high up

728
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:39,320
in the battlements, King Haggard looks on, watching the waves and the unicorns trapped

729
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:44,720
there. We're going down a cave system inside the cliff to presumably the Red Bull's lair

730
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:49,600
that will then lead out of a big cave onto the beach and then to the sea itself.

731
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:56,840
Okay, so that's the setup. And if we go down the cave, we get so much of the thought process.

732
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:08,440
We get that Lady Amalia, Amalthea, is leading the way. Amalthea, Amalgamthea. Amalgamthea.

733
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:14,960
Excellent. That's a planet in the Hitchhikers. So leading the way, everyone's following her.

734
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:19,600
Just put the glow of her. And I really enjoy the fact that there's a bit where Schmendrick

735
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:24,320
is surprised because he thought at this point they're debating, they're like, what are we

736
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:30,320
going to do? Because we could be facing the Red Bull and Schmendrick's like, and I'll turn

737
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:34,960
her back into a unicorn and she'll kill the bull and free the unicorns and that will be

738
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:41,480
the end of our story. But then there's a bit of him as he looks at Lír and talks to Amalthea

739
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:48,320
as well. It's all going on. That Lír's in love with her and she is possibly taking a

740
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:56,000
fancy to him, not maybe in a direct way, growing fondness. No, she's very much in love with

741
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:01,080
him at this point, but she doesn't realize that she shouldn't be. She doesn't remember

742
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:08,440
that she's not a human. So she has all of the humans feelings. She has love and a fear

743
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:13,520
of death and stuff like that. And in this moment, I love the fact that Schmendrick's almost

744
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:18,400
arguing with himself. He's like, I know how fairy tales have to go. I know that the first

745
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:23,080
like these two can't be together because we have to save the unicorns. And this is a really

746
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:27,120
cool bit where he goes, well, I don't know, actually, maybe if they sneak off and live

747
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:32,800
happily ever after together, just the two of them, and we forget about the unicorns,

748
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:36,920
maybe that'll be happy. Maybe that's an ending in itself. It's not a bad ending. People will

749
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:41,960
go for that ending. At no point do I think this is actually like a meta commentary. I

750
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:46,080
don't think Peter B ever thought that that would be his ending. He knows where he's going,

751
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:50,960
but I love that he really plays with the audience because I'm there like, yeah, I actually don't

752
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:55,120
know how I would feel about that. What ending do I want? Do I get to pick? Is this an ice

753
01:05:55,120 --> 01:06:00,760
cream counter? Exactly. Yeah. There's something great about the fact that it's that it's acknowledging

754
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:05,760
right from the start, like there isn't really a happy way to end this. You can't get everything

755
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:12,280
you want. No one is going to be totally happy at the end of this story, even after the villain

756
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:21,240
is defeated. And the sad part begins when the unexpectedly run into the Red Bull too

757
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:27,800
early. Yes, the Red Bull, and this is where we really hand over to the more poetic descriptions

758
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:32,360
because the Red Bull has snuck up the passageway towards them, but I love how it's described

759
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:37,880
that it's almost become one with the rock. Like it both fills the whole space yet isn't

760
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:42,960
physically filling the whole space. There is something kind of ethereal about the description

761
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:47,560
of the Red Bull, similar to how the unicorns describe. Absolutely. The Red Bull is like

762
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:55,080
fire. It fills the space it's in and it becomes as immense as it needs to be. Like at a certain

763
01:06:55,080 --> 01:07:01,400
point it's described as being like so large that you couldn't possibly miss it and yet

764
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:08,640
it's gone. It very much then leads into that metaphor of the Red Bull is fear. It is whatever

765
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:14,600
it needs to be for you to be scared of it. Because even though it's like so large that

766
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:19,560
like it fills the entire passageway, like when people throw themselves aside to get

767
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:26,080
away from it, they don't get hit by it. Like if they're trying to avoid it and hide from

768
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:31,680
it, it can't really like touch them. This goes on to several points. I love the fact that

769
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:34,560
I think it's Schmendrick who's almost wondering, he's like, it should have just killed us all

770
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:39,680
there but it didn't, you know, but it scattered them. They're alone, they're isolated, they've

771
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:45,680
all jumped in different directions and it sort of then feeds into that element. You

772
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:51,800
know, it, I'm not, well we learn, it definitely can hurt you physically, but it's almost,

773
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:57,520
it's not in its nature to. Its nature is to scare you. That's right, it says, it's to

774
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:05,160
scare you to conquer, not to kill. And so catch me, I think I, because I listened to

775
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:10,200
this in an audiobook, I think I literally missed the exact second this happens Duncan,

776
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:16,120
but Schmendrick works one more great feat of magic and he turns the Lady Amalthea back into

777
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:19,120
the unicorn, right? There was a moment before that that is really

778
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:27,320
important where Lady Amalthea, as she gets thrown to the side, she's injured. Lír's

779
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:32,800
weapons, as he takes them out to face down the Red Bull, they turn scorching hot in his

780
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:38,560
hands and he drops them and they shatter like ice. Yet in that moment Lír still takes his

781
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:43,520
stand, holding his hands up as if he still was holding his sword and shield and faces

782
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:49,640
down the bull. There's a funny bit where he sticks his tongue in the side of his mouth

783
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:58,640
and always looks like a small child, but Schmendrick sees him conquering his fear and that's the

784
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:03,640
important point that Schmendrick realises about his magic. There's a lovely description where

785
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:07,760
we get told about the future, Schmendrick would go on and his name would be greater than all

786
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:14,040
of his masters before him and every time he would cast great magic he would picture Lír

787
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:20,040
standing there looking a bit foolish conquering his fear and that's what unlocks the power

788
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:25,800
within him. And that starts off the great end theme of

789
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:32,360
the story which is that the bull represents fear so it has to be conquered by courage

790
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:39,720
and Lír has the courage to face it even though he has no power to stop it and what has to

791
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:45,440
happen is the unicorn needs to find that same courage. She and every other unicorn up to

792
01:09:45,440 --> 01:09:51,840
that point has run away when confronted by the bull so somehow she needs to find the

793
01:09:51,840 --> 01:10:00,720
courage to face it. So Schmendrick casts one more great feat of magic, he transforms the

794
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:06,840
lady Amalthea back into the unicorn. The red bull starts to chase the unicorn again because

795
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:15,400
that's what he's programmed to do and because she keeps running from it the bull has power

796
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:23,320
over her and Lír, this is such a beautiful moment, Lír demands, he's finally found out

797
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:27,760
that his girlfriend is a unicorn, he doesn't seem too put out by this, he wants the unicorn

798
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:34,960
to be saved and he demands that Schmendrick save her, Schmendrick says he can't and then

799
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:41,680
Lír says then what is magic for? Lír demanded wildly, what use is wizardry if it cannot

800
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:47,640
save a unicorn? He gripped the magician's shoulder hard to keep from falling. Schmendrick

801
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:53,700
did not turn his head, with a touch of sad mockery in his voice he said that's what

802
01:10:53,700 --> 01:11:05,660
heroes are for. Go on, go on Peter, solid line there, just hits you right in the chest.

803
01:11:05,660 --> 01:11:13,080
So what happens is guided by these words, Lír throws himself before the bull in between

804
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:21,800
it and the unicorn and is trampled to death. Every time they try to avoid the bull it doesn't

805
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:27,760
touch them because it wants them to be afraid, trying to meet it one on one, like to actually

806
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:36,280
touch it, it is tangible and it crushes Lír and the unicorn who previously ran in fear

807
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:43,480
because she can die from violence but now who has been a human and has memories of being

808
01:11:43,480 --> 01:11:51,760
a human and has memories of human love and an understanding of human loss, she's heartbroken

809
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:59,880
by Lír's death and she is guided to confront the red bull, to square down against it and

810
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:08,000
to stand her ground. And what we get here is a really interesting decision that I absolutely

811
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:14,540
adore because we don't get the unicorn lowering her head and charging the red bull and smiting

812
01:12:14,540 --> 01:12:24,240
it down. What we get is the red bull turning and running. Exactly. This is again, goes

813
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:30,440
back, she has conquered her fear through her love, through her, I'm not going, almost rage

814
01:12:30,440 --> 01:12:36,760
at this point, seeing his death and appreciating to what death is and I love the fact that

815
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:41,720
the red bull turns, it runs, it is no longer a threat and eventually she drives the red

816
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:48,760
bull itself into the sea. And it's, god it's such a beautiful ending and that frees the

817
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:54,320
other unicorns who come rushing onto the land and it's this triumphant moment but she doesn't

818
01:12:54,320 --> 01:13:00,160
immediately join them. No, we get this lovely almost quiet moment, so first we get this

819
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:05,440
big torrent, the unicorns are rushing out of the ocean to those that can't truly perceive

820
01:13:05,440 --> 01:13:11,200
them there, it's like the waves are coming over the land, Smentric and Molly huddle down

821
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:15,520
by Lír's body, Smentric I think works a little bit of magic to stop them being physically

822
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:20,080
trampled to death. They overflow the castle, they wash it away like the tide washes away

823
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:25,040
the sand castle. There's a lovely paragraph earlier on by the way where Molly observes

824
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:31,780
the whole event as if it is just like kids playing on the beach with two dolls, an ivory

825
01:13:31,780 --> 01:13:37,200
unicorn toy and a little sand castle with a little king on top, which I thought was

826
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:41,920
very cute and wonderful paragraphs that didn't need to be there but did so much. But after

827
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:47,280
the tide has washed over we're sitting there next to Lír's trampled body, which by the

828
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:51,120
way I'm not gonna lie it's actually quite brutally trampled. I think we get quite a

829
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:54,840
good description of this, his head is like half bashed into the sand castle. Do we? I

830
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:59,680
don't remember that. Yeah well it's not gory by any extent, again there's definitely a

831
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:05,800
bit about her leg twitching which I thought was like, oh extra step. Okay, fair enough.

832
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:11,320
And the unicorn comes forward and the unicorn's magic is to power over things and in this

833
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:16,400
moment she has power even over death. That's actually not the lines, it's actually much

834
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:22,720
better than that. Not even power over things, power to deny things, power to... anyway,

835
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:30,440
brings Lír back to life and they look at each other and she touches him again and then

836
01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:37,120
she goes. Unicorn can speak but she doesn't speak to them at this point. And they're all

837
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:39,840
just kind of left standing there, there's this really nice bit where they kind of look

838
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:45,360
out to the sea expecting to see the bull and they're like, he's disappeared, he shouldn't

839
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:50,680
have, he's too big to have disappeared this quickly. Did he sink to the depths or what

840
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:55,560
has happened? And it almost does go a little bit back to Haggar's intro, like Haggar came

841
01:14:55,560 --> 01:15:00,880
from over the sea, is there something beyond the horizon that, again, not gone into, not

842
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:07,600
got into this story. No it's not. And what happens now is that they're left to sort of

843
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:13,920
pick up the pieces of their story, like Lír is king now, he's king Lír. The people of

844
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:21,440
Haggate are like, hey can you fix things and not end a curse? And Lír says, no, you profited

845
01:15:21,440 --> 01:15:28,960
from my father and the curse that was put upon him, put upon you to be fortunate whilst

846
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:33,960
he was thing, I suggest now you have children, you know, you get on with life, you accept

847
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:39,240
that life is hard and it's going to be hard for you, deal with it. And so what's happened

848
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:43,800
here is that the characters are reckoning with the end of their story, they're asking

849
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:49,840
themselves what comes next and Lír is the great question because Lír has loved a unicorn

850
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:56,080
and he wants to find the unicorn and he says like to Schmendrick, if I could just chase her

851
01:15:56,080 --> 01:16:02,400
to know that I was following after her, I would be happy just to know that. And Schmendrick

852
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:06,840
has to sort of take him back to reality and say, no, you must follow your duty, that's

853
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:12,200
not the end of your fairy tale. You're the hero, the prince has become king, that's the

854
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:18,320
end of the story. And Lír has to sort of, has to accept that which cannot be, much like

855
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:27,760
the unicorn, he deals with human feelings of regret and loss. But as they're going through

856
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:35,560
the kingdom, the three of them, they have one last meeting with the unicorn and Duncan,

857
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:38,200
you can feel this bit because it's so beautiful.

858
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:44,040
Yeah, it's so the unicorn comes to all three of them, but comes to them separately, almost

859
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:49,320
all in their dreams and they each get their own individual sort of interaction. But what's

860
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:55,440
really lovely, so beautiful about the writing is that we actually only see through Schmendrick

861
01:16:55,440 --> 01:17:00,400
as a POV. So we get his talk with the unicorn, what we discussed earlier about his thoughts

862
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:07,520
on magic and what's important. And in some respects, I think there's an element, you

863
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:12,240
show that Schmendrick has come to a greater understanding about the unicorn and about

864
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:16,960
himself. He's also no longer immortal at this point, that happened earlier when he turned

865
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:22,480
the unicorn back. Great scene about the immortality falling from him. I don't know, it's something

866
01:17:22,480 --> 01:17:27,320
you'll notice of either as a weight or as armour, as in that's the line, it's like fell

867
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:33,040
from him like armour or was it or as a weight or something to that effect or veil, something

868
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:38,400
to that tune. Anyway, he has this great scene with this nice interaction. And what I really

869
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:42,040
enjoy, isn't actually Schmendrick's one, that's not the one that I think is the most beautiful,

870
01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:46,960
is that when they wake, he wakes, he realizes everyone else has had these dreams. And Lír

871
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:52,320
has this just heartfelt, did you see her? Did you see her? And they're like, yeah, yeah,

872
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:57,840
yeah, no, we had a chat. And he's like, she didn't say anything to me. She just looked

873
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:03,920
at me. And I don't know, it's something I find really powerful about that. I also love

874
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:07,880
that Schmendrick lies. He's like, what did you chat about? And Schmendrick's just like, oh,

875
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:13,720
you know, the little things, this and that, the weather. I know, it's so sweet. And but

876
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:18,840
the best part, the best part is that they say to Molly, what did she say to you? And

877
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:26,320
she says, no, I will keep that conversation, that secret close to my heart. It is mine

878
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:33,560
alone to treasure. And as a reader, we'd never know. We don't. Schmendrick asks her about

879
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:38,360
it later and says, like, you told me, right? And she says, nope.

880
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:43,360
But Lír actually just get one kind of bit of consolation in all of this, in that, you

881
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:48,240
know, he's heartbroken. He doesn't want to go back and just be a good king. And I really

882
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:52,480
like this two kind of elements here that are really nicely done. The first one I like that

883
01:18:52,480 --> 01:18:56,080
there's a talk about, you know, the land will be as good as the people that inhabit it.

884
01:18:56,080 --> 01:19:01,280
This goes back to Hagsgate, you know, is they can find happiness and joy and you know, the

885
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:05,000
orchard that they enjoy just for the growing of it is the one that they'll will grow the

886
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:09,080
most beautiful and they'll appreciate the most. Again, going back to the inner beauty,

887
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:15,720
inner beauty, outer beauty, tell the story, you know, Haggard was evil through and through.

888
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:19,260
Also I love the fact that Schmendrick goes, the unicorn touched you twice when he brought

889
01:19:19,260 --> 01:19:22,840
you back to life. And he's like, yes, he's like, she only had to do that once to bring

890
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:28,640
you back to life. The second touch was only for you. Heart melt again.

891
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:35,160
That's beautiful. So beautiful. Oh my God. Beautiful scene. And then Leo gets on this

892
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:40,680
horse rise away. And I actually really enjoyed that Schmendrick and Molly, who have had a very

893
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:44,720
interesting relationship throughout most of the book, because it's all pivoting off the

894
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:49,520
unicorn by and large. She's the focal point of their connection.

895
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:53,480
Yeah, there's, you know, there's not actually anything that ties them. But I love that it's

896
01:19:53,480 --> 01:20:00,160
basically unspoken that they're like, we're going to head off together. Like, yeah. Heading

897
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:10,960
the same way. Yeah. And then we get the last little beautiful moment, which again, I suppose

898
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:16,280
leans I'm going to call it telepractitism. I know this predates him like, like 20 years.

899
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:21,440
But it's what it feels like. It's what it feels like because that's where my origins

900
01:20:21,440 --> 01:20:29,200
lie. A princess runs up to them and is like, oh, bequeath thee. My good Lord King has been

901
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:34,760
betrayed by his villainous uncle, the Van Wolfblood, and goes on about my good brothers

902
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:39,760
entrap to I need help. And Smidra is just like, yeah, the guy you need is that way.

903
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:43,400
Take my horse. You'll catch up with him soon. Go and enjoy your story.

904
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:48,000
It's great. It's great because and this is the difference, and this is not a dig at Pratchett

905
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:53,280
because we both love Terry Pratchett and his books are very heartwarming. But I don't,

906
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:58,280
what I don't think would happen in a Terry Pratchett book is that the character, like

907
01:20:58,280 --> 01:21:03,280
you can imagine Rincewind or Sam Vimes, Sam Vimes doing the exact same thing. She say,

908
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:08,160
you're talking to the wrong guy. The guy you're looking for, the hero is that way.

909
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:13,040
But I don't think what happened next is the Schmendrick getting off his horse, giving it

910
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:18,440
to her and having to walk the rest of the way by himself. But then just like tipping

911
01:21:18,440 --> 01:21:26,160
back his head and laughing at it and laughing for a long time, laughing about the fact that

912
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:31,520
about about the twist of fate and about the completion of the story, but also about the

913
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:37,880
place he's in in his life and how he's been changed and the hope he has for the future.

914
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:43,480
You know, it's it's this beautiful, sweet moment to end the story with. And it is a

915
01:21:43,480 --> 01:21:51,800
beautiful and sweet story through and through. Geordie, I really like this book. I like it

916
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:57,880
too, man. I really like this book. It's definitely holds a place. It holds a very interesting

917
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:03,200
place Geordie, where I throughout the start, I was saying, you know, we've mentioned Terry

918
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:07,160
Pratchett quite a lot throughout this and I've mentioned The Hobbit and I mentioned

919
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:12,440
Howl's Moving Castle and there's an element of The Wizards of Earthsea. It's closest

920
01:22:12,440 --> 01:22:19,640
to Howl's Moving Castle of all the ones you've mentioned. I think you're probably right.

921
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:23,600
I think you're probably right. Not that we've done that one yet. We have a plan for that

922
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:29,760
episode. So if you like any of the above, which is an awful lot, I would recommend The

923
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:36,680
Last Unicorn to you. Full heartedly. I would strongly recommend it too. Maybe the movie.

924
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:41,840
I can't say we haven't seen it. I like the song. Yeah, the animation looks, you know,

925
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:48,680
it's not or is it Ghibli? It's almost Ghibli. It doesn't look like it, but you know. We

926
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:52,080
haven't talked about that much about the Robin Hoods in this and that would imply this is

927
01:22:52,080 --> 01:23:00,040
set some point post Robin Hood era England. It's ten, it's eleven hundred. Yes. Time

928
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:05,680
of the first crusade. No, it's not. Third crusade. I don't know the number of crusades.

929
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:10,840
I think John. I feel like I've said all I mean to of this book. I really hope that people

930
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:16,920
do read this. I know it's commonly read. Like I've read an article this morning about the

931
01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:24,680
rights issues with Peter S. Beagle who managed to get them back from his like agent or whatever.

932
01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:34,360
It's a sad story really. But anyway, and like people it sells like twenty thousand copies

933
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:41,480
a year, which is a lot. It has never been out of print. A book written in 1968. That's

934
01:23:41,480 --> 01:23:46,320
pretty impressive. Weirdly though, it has been quite elusive in my life. Books that have

935
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:51,760
been out of print since the 1960s. The Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings has been

936
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:57,000
out of date in that same span of time. Not out of date, out of print. Wow. I did not

937
01:23:57,000 --> 01:24:02,640
know that fact. That's kind of that's kind of cheeky on my part because it had a really

938
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:09,320
shaky launch in America. So there was a period of time where this got brought up on our Conan

939
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:13,800
episode, which people should listen to because Duncan did a really good job on it. And I

940
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:20,640
did an OK job bringing it down from like probably close to two straight hours of talking about

941
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:26,720
Conan history. But we mentioned in it that like the Lord of the Rings launch in America

942
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:34,040
was super shaky. They only sold just over 3000 copies because that's how many they printed.

943
01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:38,840
And then they just didn't print more, which led to a period of time where people were

944
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:44,440
selling basically bootlegs of the Lord of the Rings in America and none of that money

945
01:24:44,440 --> 01:24:53,040
went to the Tolkien estate. Well, that's awful. It's sure in it. But I went to a museum once

946
01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:58,520
that was displaying the original American release covers and you're like, did this artist

947
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:04,320
even get a plot synopsis? So that's not the focus. But I do think maybe that does highlight

948
01:25:04,320 --> 01:25:07,760
something, Geordie. Maybe this is something that on the other side of the pond and our

949
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:12,080
American listeners, probably maybe this is just a little bit more widely read because

950
01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:17,640
I feel like I had to dig for this. So maybe the recommendation goes out to more. I think

951
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:24,840
it is well read, but it's not exactly commonplace. Like people don't talk about this on our slash

952
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:29,680
fantasy, you know? Well, let's try and turn that trend around because this is a fantastic

953
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:36,040
book and if you like any of those other fantasies mentioned, you owe it to yourself to read

954
01:25:36,040 --> 01:25:44,040
this. This will bring a level of both maturity and emotional nuance to what seems on the

955
01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:48,720
surface such a fairy tale story. But what you'll probably enjoy the absolute most is

956
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:55,400
the fact that it is written in such a beautiful way and will give time to moments. And the

957
01:25:55,400 --> 01:26:00,200
only person I can think who might not enjoy this, if you're someone who and it is a very

958
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:06,320
much a taste thing, if you enjoy more direct, simple prose, get to the action, let's get

959
01:26:06,320 --> 01:26:10,960
moving. This is not for people who like, that's not this. Whose favourite novel is Red Storm

960
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:17,000
writing? You know, if you're a Tom Clancy fan and you want to get in to reading fantasy,

961
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:22,040
this is not the one to go for. Read Promise of Blood, that's more your speed. But no,

962
01:26:22,040 --> 01:26:25,040
if you like fantasy, for the love of God, read this book.

963
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:29,960
And as someone who loves fantasy, Geordie, what are we going to be reading next time?

964
01:26:29,960 --> 01:26:36,960
Uh, whose choice was this? I'm going to hand it over to you to pick the next book.

965
01:26:36,960 --> 01:26:43,520
Yeah, I picked Priory. So technically, we never did. Yes, this was your choice. We just

966
01:26:43,520 --> 01:26:49,920
had to do it like in a Facebook messenger chat instead of doing it. Duncan, I haven't

967
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:56,000
I haven't picked the next book. I forgot I had to. You know what? Fuck it. Let's do

968
01:26:56,000 --> 01:27:01,680
the heroes. Beautiful. I've been meaning to read it. I don't have anything else planned

969
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:07,240
for us to do at this point. I thought we were going to enjoy Priory and I was wrong. So

970
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:12,440
I really am a bit lost. I'm pretty confident we'll enjoy the heroes. I mean, I know you

971
01:27:12,440 --> 01:27:20,640
will. I have already. This is the heroes by Jay Abercrombie. Wait, wait, that right? What

972
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:25,080
did I just say? Yeah, Joe Abercrombie. Yeah, Jay Abercrombie. It's not it's not incorrect.

973
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:28,760
I said it a bit wrong and I got so confused. That's right. The heroes by Jay Abercrombie

974
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:36,640
to follow up to best served cold loosely. I'm really interested in reading this. I got

975
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:42,440
it at Christmas. It's been sat on my shelf this whole time. I think it's going to slap.

976
01:27:42,440 --> 01:27:48,800
I will not give you any spoilers on how much this will slap. Oh, it will slap though. It's

977
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:55,200
just how hard will it slap. It's an excellent book. It is the fifth in the first all series

978
01:27:55,200 --> 01:28:00,440
by Joe Abercrombie is technically a standalone to do feel free to just jump in with it. Probably

979
01:28:00,440 --> 01:28:04,080
less of a standalone than the last one best served cold. But that is something to experience

980
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:09,800
along with us next time. If you enjoyed listening to this episode and have read The Last Unicorn,

981
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:13,400
please tell us your thoughts. Tell us how you read it, when you read it, what influence

982
01:28:13,400 --> 01:28:19,880
it had, what books you recommend that are like it. Let us know. I would love to read

983
01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:24,920
more like this. Best places. Is this just fancy podcasts on Instagram or you can email

984
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:33,040
us at it's just fancy podcasts at gmail.com love to hear with you. Please rate review

985
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:37,880
thumbs up whatever it is this episode on whatever platform you are leave us a review even if

986
01:28:37,880 --> 01:28:44,920
your view is just two words. Always appreciated. Yeah, good pod. Till next time, Geordie. Till

987
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:49,920
next time. I've been your host Geordie Bailey. I've been your host Duncan Nicholl. So long.

988
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:57,840
Geordie. Oh, and one more thing before we go. I promised Duncan I would try to learn the

989
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:06,960
theme to The Last Unicorn on guitar for this episode. So I did my best. I'm a pretty novice

990
01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:20,480
guitarist but hey, this is what I got. Thanks for listening. Solo for real this time.

991
01:29:20,480 --> 01:29:31,640
When the last eagle flies over the last crumbling mountain. When the last lion roars at the

992
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:43,600
last dusty fountain and shadow of the forest. Though she may be old and warm. They will

993
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:58,880
stare unbelieving at The Last Unicorn. When the first breath of winter through the flowers

994
01:29:58,880 --> 01:30:10,360
is icing and you look to the north. And the pale moon is rising and it seems the call

995
01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:21,480
is dying. And would leave the world to mourn in the distance in the laughter of the last

996
01:30:21,480 --> 01:30:34,240
unicorn. I'm alive. I'm alive.

997
01:30:51,480 --> 01:31:03,320
When the last moon is cast over the last starry morning. And the future has passed without

998
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:13,240
even a last desperate warning. Then look into the sky where through the clouds the path

999
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:31,960
is told. I can see how she sparkles. It's The Last Unicorn. I'm alive. I'm alive.