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Hello and welcome to another episode of Is Just Fantasy, where every week two nerds

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get together to rate, read and review a fantasy novel.

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I'm your host, Geordie Bailey.

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And I'm the man who was punished by the gods to do this podcast, at the end of time, Duncan

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Nicoll.

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Duncan, it's good to be back.

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It might not have been so long for our listeners, but it feels like quite a long time for me.

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I know, we've had a real good break.

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We've both been away on holiday.

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Oh, but we're back in the room.

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Geordie, how was your time away?

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You went hiking.

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I did.

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I had a very nice time.

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I went off hiking in Sweden.

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I started off by a visit to Stockholm, where I saw a Bruce Springsteen concert, which was...

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I had fun.

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I always have fun at Bruce Springsteen's concerts.

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I think that was my fourth time going to see him.

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But I will tell you this, Duncan.

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I learned something about Swedes.

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Swedes do not get up and dance at concerts.

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Sorry.

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They don't.

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I was quite flummoxed by this because there were people who all around me who just sat

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down throughout the whole performance.

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They had their arms crossed.

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They stared straight ahead.

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And occasionally, occasionally, someone would stand up and wave their hands in the air and

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other people would sort of do it in a ripple.

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And then they would sit straight back down and cross their arms again.

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It was a bit unnerving.

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Wait, so it's been to concerts.

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At the front, there's normally standing.

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There was still that.

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Oh, yeah.

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They're going crazy.

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The people at the back in the seats are like, no, no, no, no.

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It's a clear divide.

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You make your decision when you buy your ticket.

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That's right.

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I paid for this seat.

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I'm going to sit in it.

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Do you want to?

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I, to this day, can't get over the fact that when you go and see a band, the standing tickets

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are more expensive.

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This makes no sense to me.

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I'm getting less.

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If you go to the Globe, they're the cheapest seats.

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A precedent was set by Shakespeare.

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I was just about to say at the Globe.

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You want to be a groundling.

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No, when I go to the Globe, mate, I always get a seat.

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I've actually never stood.

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I'm like, no, no, no.

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I'm at the top in the shade.

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I don't know, man.

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I've never been a groundling either, but I have had bad experiences of seating in the

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Globe.

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I had to spend all of Richard the First, not Richard the First.

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Is there even a Shakespeare play about him?

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Richard the Third, leaning ever so slightly to the side to look past a wooden column,

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a column which my mum was sat directly behind like she was Jenny Nicholson on the Star Cruiser.

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Trying to wait to see if Duncan gets that joke.

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No.

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Okay, we'll come back to that.

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But yes, I went to Sweden, and after I went to this concert, I went off on my hike.

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I was hiking for a week up the Hyggekusteläden, the high coast way, and it was great.

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It was supposed to be a seven day trek.

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I actually ended up doing it in six.

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It's a very beautiful coastal trek, quite far north in Sweden.

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I never ever saw the sun set.

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I normally went to bed pretty early because I got tired, so I settled down in my tent

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and it would be fully light.

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And then you'd wake up in the morning at five o'clock and it was fully daytime.

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I only saw the sun rise once on my last night where I was just too uncomfortable.

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I kept waking up.

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I said, fine, whatever, I'll get started early.

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So I got up at 3am and I started my hike.

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So I managed to see the cunt.

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So then at 3am I managed to see the sun come up.

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But on that last day, I normally did about 25 kilometres a day.

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But on the last day, I kind of reached my end point where I wanted to be for day six

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by 12 o'clock.

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And a lot of things sort of happened around that time.

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One, I was feeling really good and full of energy and like, yeah, I could keep going.

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The other thing that happened was I was just straight up out of water, like period.

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It was a hot day.

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It was very dry.

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I couldn't just camp there because the only water to drink was the Baltic Sea.

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And I'm told that's a bad idea.

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Good survival instinct, mate.

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Thank you.

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That's me.

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I'm a wilderness man now.

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I know these things.

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So I just said, I'm going to keep walking.

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I'm just going to keep walking, at least until I find a water source.

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It'll just make tomorrow, my last day, way easier.

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It's already going to be a short day.

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And then about like 30 kilometres into my trek, I'm stopping.

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I find a stream to fill up my bottle.

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Oh, I thought that when you said a water source, in my head, like in the English countryside,

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that's like, oh yeah, you found a pub and you go in, you're like, can you fill up my

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bottle for me at the bar?

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No, yeah, you found a little stream up in the mountains.

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And then I called my parents and I told them, yeah, I'm feeling pretty good today.

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I think I might even try and press towards the end.

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My dad said, oh, good idea if you're feeling up to it.

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In fact, we'll look into what hotel rooms might be available for you at the end.

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I thought, that's a great idea.

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Now I have something to look forward to.

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I keep walking.

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15 minutes later, I get a text from my mum and she says, okay, we've booked you a hotel

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room.

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Well, that's not what we agreed.

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You said you'd look into them and see if they're really available.

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And now there is one that's not just available, but it's paid for and it's waiting for me,

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which means I have to make it.

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Oh, the pressure's on.

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Every day I walked between 20 and 25 kilometres, on that last day I walked 47 kilometres and

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had to climb over three burgs to get to the end.

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What time did you get into that hotel room?

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To be honest, not that late, but again, I started at 3am, so I got in at like half past

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5.

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So 3am to 5am, it's like 14 hours of hiking with some breaks.

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That is full on Flesh of the Ring style stuff, mate.

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Jesus.

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I did have so much more sympathy for Sam and his poor little hobbit feet.

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He didn't even have shoes on.

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He was climbing through Mordor, that's not fair.

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But also, I don't feel bad because they stopped at Rivendell for like three months.

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Like come on.

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Wait, no, they, yeah, they do.

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Can you imagine if they had it like all the other events like the Battle of Pelnor Fields?

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Like all those people who die at Minas Tirith could have not.

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They just don't think about it.

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Don't think about it.

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No, they didn't deserve a little break.

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Yes.

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So that's an incredible.

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So if they didn't, they wouldn't have Legolas and Gimli and Boromir.

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I guess.

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Anyway, I had a great time in Sweden.

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The Swedes were very friendly.

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On my second day on the trek, it was raining all day long and it was heavy rain.

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So as I was limping towards my final destination, climbing up a hill looking very miserable,

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a very nice Swedish man called Jervin came out of his house and insisted I stay in his

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guest house.

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Now, you see, what's so lovely about this story, and obviously I know it ends well because

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you're back with us.

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If that happened to me in the UK, one, it wouldn't.

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And two, my instant reaction would be, no, I'm good.

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And then get the hell further up that path.

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What do you mean you'd be nice to me?

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No, you can't show me charity.

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That doesn't add up.

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Much like in ancient Greece, I relied on the hospitality of my host to never betray me

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or turn me into a pig.

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But Duncan, before we get into that, how have your holidays been?

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What have you been up to?

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This and that.

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I'm a man who's seen a lot of DIY, a lot of beautiful gardening.

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I laid turf the first time, Geordie.

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Have you ever laid turf before?

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Very nice.

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Have I laid turf before?

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Yes.

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Only as a euphemism.

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Well, apparently the best way to do it is with a bread knife.

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And then you have to be very unfriendly to the environment and water it twice a day.

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In fact, when I did go away on my holiday, I went to a festival.

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I had to ask my mum, could you come around my house and water my lawn for me?

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It made me feel very weird.

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But it's settled now, is it?

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It's taken root.

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It's definitely done very well.

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A few little dry patches.

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Don't worry, I did leaf notes, have words for my mother.

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She's like, excuse me.

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I have to do all of it.

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Doesn't count otherwise.

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But no, that turned out brilliant.

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Well, I'm actually going to talk to Geordie before we get into this actual book of this

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episode named after.

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Geordie, after our Thrawn trilogy, people who listen to that might be like, guys, get

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off Star Wars, we're done.

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But I fell back into the wormholes.

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I just need to dive on it one more time.

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Geordie, like my favorite YouTuber, Sarcastic Productions, did an episode talking about

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Revenge of the Sith.

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I'm a fan-ish in a weird way.

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We read the novel.

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I never asked you this, Geordie.

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Are you happy that I got you to Revenge of the Sith first, or do you think I should have

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just gone straight in with Air of the Empire as Star Wars is going?

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I think they're both decent choices for starting points.

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But I have no regrets about you picking that one, although I think they're not as good

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as the Thrawn trilogy.

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Question is, I don't know whether, considering it was such early days in the podcast, I probably

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wouldn't have chosen to read the second one.

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I feel like I would have been like, I don't want to get bogged down so early in our podcast

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history.

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We need to do...

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What did you do after that?

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I think it was Good Omens.

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Yeah.

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So I'm glad you didn't introduce me to it back then, because we probably wouldn't have

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given it so much of our airtime.

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Well, not to give it too much more, but Geordie, so I listened to this YouTube video from Sarcastic

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Productions, and they brought up fan edits again.

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I just want to talk about this.

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I found them to the wormhole of Star Wars fan edits, and Geordie, there's one of them

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that I just want to tell you about, because it's so cool.

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It's talked about in that episode by Sarcastic Productions, and what it is, it's a fan edit...

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Just to jump in, it's overly sarcastic productions, just in case people haven't heard of them.

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Much more successful content creators than us, and you want to check them out.

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They do make very good videos on history and media tropes.

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Again, if you're listening to us, you've probably heard of them.

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In this episode, they talk about a Star Wars fan edit called Black Mantle, and it is amazing.

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Geordie, imagine this.

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Revenge of the Sith in black and white.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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A bit basic, but let me add to that.

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Revenge of the Sith in black and white, but edited together with scenes from Phantom Menace

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and Attack of the Clones, put in as flashbacks.

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So it's like the whole prequel trilogy functions as one two and a half hour feature.

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Alright, sure.

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The one Star Wars fan edit I've ever seen was an edit to Attack of the Clones, and literally

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all they did was they took the final scene of Qui-Gon being killed by Darth Maul, and

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Darth Maul being killed by Obi-Wan, and they just stapled it to the front of Attack of

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the Clones.

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Because then the point being, that's literally all you need from the first movie.

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That's all that matters is Obi-Wan, the Sith have returned, and Qui-Gon gives the injunction

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to Obi-Wan, train the boy.

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And while those things are great, if you're watching that fan edit, guess what?

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You've already suffered through the Phantom Menace.

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That's how it happens.

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Unless you have a really good friend who's going to bring you in, but in a really weird

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way.

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But anyway, so back to Black Mantle, so it does that.

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Okay, but here's the real kicker.

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They use the Japanese dub, and then rewrite the subtitles.

245
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,160
So many dialogue fixes.

246
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,800
That's evil genius, oh my god.

247
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,200
So when you watch it, it's actually like watching it new.

248
00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,960
So I've watched other fan edits of the Pequal trilogy, and often they're just cut down versions.

249
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:07,280
They've taken off some of the less, how do I say it, engaging scenes.

250
00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,000
They've redone the music here and there to give it a different vibe.

251
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,560
But they just said, if you're watching the same movie again, you have moments where you

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00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:16,040
go, oh, that's what's different to how I remembered it.

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But ultimately the same thing.

254
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,080
This makes it a completely different viewing experience.

255
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:21,080
They rephrase it.

256
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,320
This legitimately sounds really interesting.

257
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,400
They rephrase it so that Padme and Anakin, that's not a secret.

258
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,220
You know, Obi-Wan's literally like, go and see your wife, have a lovely time.

259
00:12:31,220 --> 00:12:36,860
They do it so that what Anakin's looking for, what gets his attention is that he can see

260
00:12:36,860 --> 00:12:37,860
the future.

261
00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:41,960
It's his premonitions that make the Jedi take an interest in him.

262
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:48,420
And what he's going to Palpatine for is Palpatine's like, have you heard of Plagueis the Wise?

263
00:12:48,420 --> 00:12:52,720
He too could see the future, but he learned how to change his visions.

264
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,120
They're not set in stone.

265
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,540
Lots of changes like that and more.

266
00:12:58,540 --> 00:13:02,920
And what made it so great is I actually felt like I was watching something new.

267
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,920
Also, obviously if you do speak Japanese, it's going to completely throw you off because

268
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,120
they've just used the normal dub and then re-written the sub.

269
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,120
So you'll be there like, that's not what they said.

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00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,480
They just said the normal line.

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00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:23,440
But other than that, really great way of reworking and feeling new, genuinely feeling fresh again.

272
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,000
So highly recommend it.

273
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,100
It was great.

274
00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:37,040
Also, because Japan has such a robust animation industry that requires a lot of voice acting,

275
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,960
they have a huge suite of incredibly talented voice actors.

276
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:48,400
So even if you've occasionally seen stuff like the Japanese dub of Thor Ragnarok or

277
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:54,280
The Boys, you know, oh my god, these guys do incredible dub work.

278
00:13:54,280 --> 00:14:04,600
It sounds so vivid and dramatic and you know, like it's an anime.

279
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:09,440
The dude who does Hayden Christensen, I don't know his name, but he does amazing.

280
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,440
The intensity.

281
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:11,440
He is not phoning it in.

282
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,440
He is giving it 110%.

283
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,560
Fantastic.

284
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:18,120
But enough of that sly waltz.

285
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:19,920
I had to just do it one more time.

286
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,600
Geordie, we're here to talk about a really amazing book.

287
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,720
I want you to use the word prestigious, not only because it's won so many awards, actual

288
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:36,120
like literature awards, but it's the sequel to the book that in many ways won our award

289
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:42,160
for the like the best, most highest ranked book on this podcast in a bit of a complex

290
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:43,160
fashion.

291
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,520
Go listen to our top 50 to hear about it.

292
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,120
But the sequel to Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller.

293
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,120
We're talking today about Circe.

294
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:55,480
Sequel, prequel, midquel, around about all.

295
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,720
More like the continuing saga, isn't it?

296
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:00,720
Chronicles.

297
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,520
Now, this book is very strange.

298
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:08,320
I guess we're just starting our review now because I do.

299
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,000
Is there something else you want to say Duncan?

300
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,040
Or can I start?

301
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,560
Geordie, are you about to give your thoughts on it?

302
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,920
I think I should just add a little a little forewarning.

303
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,320
I have actually read this book before.

304
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,120
I did mention that previously.

305
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,800
So I actually read this book before Song of Achilles.

306
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,040
This is my reread for me.

307
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,080
But it's the first time rereading it since reading Song of Achilles.

308
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,920
So I'll hand it over to you, Geordie, give your first thoughts and then I'll fill people in

309
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,920
on what this book is about.

310
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:33,920
Yes.

311
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:41,000
So this book is the as I said, like it's it surrounds Song of Achilles.

312
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,320
Song of Achilles is a very minute, narrow story, even though it takes place over the

313
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:52,720
span of 10 years, which is a long time, even in the canon of of all of all of literature.

314
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:57,720
Like 10 years is like pretty standard for like some of the Dickens novels.

315
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,400
But also some of his novels take place over, you know, an afternoon.

316
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,680
This one takes place over a substantially longer period of time, potentially all of

317
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:15,000
human history, pretty much like from Mycenaean Greece to like the end, the entire heroic

318
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,440
age of Greece.

319
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:23,520
I really not what I expected, not what I expected at all, because I knew that it was about Circe

320
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,000
and I knew it was going to be about her relationship with Odysseus.

321
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,480
And that is an important part of this book, which is why I picked it for our Troy Book

322
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,600
of the Year, because apparently we do one every year.

323
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,040
We're going to do David Gemmell's one at some point.

324
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:47,080
But that is turns out quite a small part of a great story of Circe, because really, this

325
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,200
book is not strictly about Circe.

326
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:55,840
It is the orbital platform which Madeline Miller flies around so she can do all of the

327
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,880
greatest hits of Greek mythology and its canon.

328
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,800
Yes, that is one way to put it.

329
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,760
I do feel like it is still quite a narrative.

330
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,840
This is Circe's story, but Circe's story, and I'm going to be clear, Geordie, I'm not

331
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:13,280
super familiar with the closest thing to the Greek canon, Homer's works.

332
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:23,360
I don't really know where a lot of this stacks up compared to that sort of established lore.

333
00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:27,400
It's a mix and match.

334
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,520
Even though I'm a huge fan of Greek mythology and it's been an obsession of mine since I

335
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,120
was a boy, I really didn't know much about Circe.

336
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:40,880
I knew that she lived beyond just the Odyssey.

337
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:47,400
I knew she was related to Medea somehow, but that's all I knew.

338
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:55,080
To be honest, I'm not sure how much of this book is sort of made up.

339
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,560
I believe I read in the start of this book, it comes with a...

340
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,000
I listened to the audiobook of Kirke.

341
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,280
Sorry, stop.

342
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,720
What's that pronunciation?

343
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,320
And Kirke.

344
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:07,320
Circe.

345
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:08,320
Kirke.

346
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:09,320
It's pronounced Kirke.

347
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,640
It's an ancient Greek name.

348
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,560
They didn't have a s sound, or C is pronounced with a k.

349
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:21,520
The audiobook narrator didn't agree with me, but audiobook narrators are wrong about pronunciation

350
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,680
all the time.

351
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,840
If you've ever listened to the audiobook for The Crystal Shard, and indeed the first three

352
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:35,400
books in the trilogy of Drizzt or whatever it's called, that dude couldn't pronounce

353
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,040
the word lived.

354
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,880
He couldn't pronounce the word lived.

355
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:42,880
Lie-ved.

356
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,800
No! Lie-ved.

357
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,600
Like, he lived.

358
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:47,600
He pronounced it lie-ved.

359
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:48,600
I know!

360
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,600
That's not an obscure word!

361
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:57,120
I was making it so Geordie that if you were to do it wrong you would say livid, because

362
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:59,120
at least that's another word.

363
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:01,360
I know!

364
00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:07,400
He was always pronouncing it like it was the word live, like it's live on television.

365
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:08,400
And he lie-ved.

366
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,400
Wow.

367
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:10,400
Yes.

368
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:19,800
And once the good people of Brynshander lie-ved within Icewind Dale.

369
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:20,800
God almighty.

370
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,840
Anyway, um, anyway, I'm right, she's wrong, it's Kirke.

371
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,200
I will be pronouncing it Kirke for the rest of this episode, just to show solidarity with

372
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:34,720
everyone else who's wrong out there apparently.

373
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,120
But yes, I didn't know much about Circe or her connection to other parts of the great

374
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:41,120
mythos.

375
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:42,840
I'm sure most of it is made up.

376
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:50,200
I know from the appendix at the start that it says the story of Glaucus is taken from

377
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:58,200
Ovid's Metamorphosis, and I somewhat doubt that Circe is actually a part of that story.

378
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:04,860
I think she's sort of just stapled, I said Circe, dammit.

379
00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:08,680
I somehow doubt that Circe was actually a part of that story.

380
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:15,120
I feel like she was, she was made into an important witness.

381
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:16,120
And I think that's very fair.

382
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:20,040
I obviously, I think the majority of people who read this bit were coming from my standpoint

383
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,480
of knowing nothing.

384
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:27,840
So I do think it's perfectly fair to twist this and write on it and expand on it, give

385
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:28,840
it your own take.

386
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,960
This is someone's own take.

387
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:37,000
So I don't, like, if it does divulge, that means nothing to me.

388
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,320
Like it's not a knock.

389
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,640
And in the same way that Song of Achilles and Signs of the Girls, very stray from the

390
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:48,400
canon, you know, she sticks to it in ways where you can tell she's making a point to

391
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:54,880
say I am paying attention to canon, I am referencing it here and being very deliberate about this.

392
00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,160
Like a dude falls off the roof in this book and it feels a bit out there.

393
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,040
But I checked the front of the book and it says this dude fell off the roof in the Odyssey.

394
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,640
And I'm like, okay, I forgot about that bit.

395
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,480
So I think that's going to give us the explanation.

396
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,400
Allow me just to that kind of open summary.

397
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,000
Circe is the witch from the Odyssey.

398
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,040
She lives on an island that Odysseus lands upon.

399
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,240
There is magic, there are people being turned into pigs, and ultimately Odysseus is his

400
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,560
normal charming, smart self.

401
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,120
And he resolves the issue.

402
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:27,720
No spoilers just yet.

403
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,840
But this book, you're right, it focuses purely on Circe and it goes right back to her beginnings

404
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,440
as a child of the Titan Helios and Perses.

405
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,440
Perseus?

406
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:38,440
Perses.

407
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:45,520
Duncan, for this book, I'm never, ever going to make fun of you for struggling to pronounce

408
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:51,240
these, because these are, it is full of characters who are from Greek mythology, but are not

409
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,960
main players whatsoever.

410
00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:01,880
And I'm looking at the pronunciation guide and it is doing me no help.

411
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:08,600
The number of names which are extremely similar to each other, we've got Protens and Perseus

412
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:13,040
and Perse and Pasiphaë.

413
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,720
They're all members of the same family, by the way.

414
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,600
Perse, Perseus and Pasiphaë.

415
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,560
Oh, this is going to hurt.

416
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,080
Geordie, I had this on very recently.

417
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,520
I was listening to the You’re Dead to Me podcast by the BBC, it's a great history podcast.

418
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,600
I learnt something, I learnt a pronunciation thing and it actually blew my mind, because

419
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:36,520
not only was I wrong, but all of my teachers at schools apparently were wrong.

420
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:42,680
So can I just ask you, what's the name of the theorem about the length of the hypotenuse

421
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,200
of a right angular triangle?

422
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:46,200
Pythagoras Theorem.

423
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:47,200
Pith-a-gore-us.

424
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,200
Blew my mind.

425
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:51,200
Very good.

426
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,760
I told this to my Greek colleague, he went, obviously, you stupid Englishman.

427
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:56,760
Right.

428
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,760
Yeah, just like Van-Koch or Chinggis Khan, we forget all about the actual pronunciation

429
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,320
of these historical names.

430
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,640
But she is the daughter of these two beings, she is not the most loved daughter and she

431
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,880
has a very hard childhood in this time.

432
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:17,120
Aside from the start, we get our most coherent theme throughout the book, which is everyone

433
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:20,640
is mean to Circe all the time.

434
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,360
It's actually difficult for me a little bit, at points, to read through this.

435
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:32,360
I found this very challenging because I felt the meanness in this, I don't know if it's

436
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:36,440
unlike, I'm trying to get a song on Kili, that's probably unfair, but so much of it

437
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,720
seems completely out of almost nowhere.

438
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,640
It's like, why are you being horrible to her?

439
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:48,720
She's done nothing extra, she is no extra, she is just as she is.

440
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,600
And everyone, even if it's not like, out of the horrific, it's almost like the thing that

441
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,920
being most mean to this person about is that she's not as mean as they are.

442
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,680
Yeah, it's a book full of Regina Georges.

443
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,520
I'm going to actually say Duncan that this theme throughout the book of everyone is just

444
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,320
mean to Circe all the time, and they all suck.

445
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,240
It just really didn't actually resonate with me as much as I thought it was supposed to.

446
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:22,200
So this is obviously a deeply sad book, like down to its very bones, there's very little

447
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,640
joy to be had.

448
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,640
And that sort of overbearing, continuous sense of misery, it sort of just like rolled over

449
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,280
me like pebbles.

450
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,960
I described this to my girlfriend the other day when I was leading up to recording this

451
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:42,840
episode, I said, the thing about Song of Achilles is that sad, bad stuff happens throughout

452
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:49,240
the book, but what it's really about is a big wind up punch.

453
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,360
The book tells you from the start, it's going to go wrong.

454
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:57,400
It shows you a clenched fist and says, you're going to be sad.

455
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,960
And then it spends the whole book being like, whoa, oh, it's coming.

456
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,880
Why would I attack Hector?

457
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,680
He's done nothing to me.

458
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:06,680
You ready for it?

459
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:07,680
It's coming.

460
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,400
And you spend 400 pages wincing, feeling like, oh, I'm going to get punched.

461
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,480
I'm going to get punched.

462
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,600
And then you do get punched and there's nothing you can do about it.

463
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,240
And it's horrible.

464
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,000
This book is like constantly being jabbed or poked the whole time.

465
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,160
And it's not as effective as the wind up punch.

466
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:27,760
I absolutely love that metaphor.

467
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,600
Completely do rarely do the explanations, but you're right.

468
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,000
You said doing total jab.

469
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,000
If you want to use that metaphor, this is like the character Circe is on the street

470
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,760
and every random person that walks past just gives you a quick slap in the face.

471
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,240
And as soon as you're going, ow, before you even finish, what was that for?

472
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,640
The next person comes along and just slaps you again.

473
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:48,640
And then again.

474
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:49,640
And that's right.

475
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,640
Until eventually you're just in the- Exactly.

476
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,000
You'll get into a feet of work position eventually.

477
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,320
And that's what happens here.

478
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,560
Circe is a god, but she gets involved with magic she shouldn't have.

479
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,360
And she is banished for eternity to a island to live in isolation.

480
00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:09,000
And people rock up, people from the Odyssey and other greatness and they show up.

481
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,080
And most of the time she tries to be nice and they're mean to her and it goes a bit

482
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,720
wrong and then they leave.

483
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,920
And this format goes on a bit until we get to the end and things are mildly happier-ish.

484
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,160
Okay, that's a good summary.

485
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,160
That's good.

486
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,160
That's a pretty good summary, Duncan.

487
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,600
Geordie, can I tell you my thoughts on this?

488
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,880
I know you kind of just said yours.

489
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,240
Circe, everyone, I have such high thoughts.

490
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,720
I've read this before, Song of Achilles.

491
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,200
And when I read Song of Achilles, my main thought was, damn, that blew Circe out of

492
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,200
the water for me.

493
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,200
Circe is a well-written book.

494
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,200
It's a well-researched book.

495
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,480
It sure is, no doubt.

496
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,800
With really actually well-developed characters.

497
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:53,720
But as I think Geordie alluded to for himself, same for me, just the emotional connection

498
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,200
was just not as strong as I had in Song of Achilles.

499
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,640
And I'm not quite sure, I think we just explained it a little bit, why that might have been

500
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:03,640
the point.

501
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:04,640
But it just didn't click.

502
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:10,400
I didn't feel, I didn't empathise or sympathise to the same level as Song of Achilles.

503
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,200
That said, I do want to make this very clear.

504
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,160
Song of Achilles, we put on one of the highest totems that we have on this podcast.

505
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:17,160
This is one of the absolute finest.

506
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:23,400
Yes, it's tied for the best book that we've read on the entire podcast so far.

507
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,200
So that's pretty, you know, if I'm saying it wasn't as good as that, there's still

508
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,100
a long way between there and that.

509
00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:31,680
This is definitely not bad.

510
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,960
In fact, I don't know about you Geordie, but the other Troy book we've read, Seeker of

511
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,640
the Gales, I would still put this slightly ahead of that book.

512
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,720
Maybe not by an awful lot, but I still would.

513
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,120
Yeah, probably.

514
00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:45,120
I think I would.

515
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:49,680
The thing about this book, Duncan, is that what it shares in common with Song of Achilles

516
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,280
is that Madeleine Miller is a beautiful writer.

517
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,240
It's so poetic.

518
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,600
There's just some description, particularly on the island, where things are being nice

519
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,520
and it's about the flowers and the blue sea and the sun above.

520
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:06,520
It's gorgeous.

521
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,520
The painting of these scenes is absolutely lovely.

522
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,040
It makes you kind of, despite how horrible the world is, want to step onto that beautiful,

523
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:18,760
idyllic Greek island, often done in contrast to the wicked events that are occurring.

524
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:19,760
Absolutely.

525
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,160
There's something really interesting about the theme of that book, which is that this

526
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,240
is a book about isolation.

527
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,240
First and foremost, that's what it's about.

528
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:33,080
It's about isolation, but it's not really about loneliness.

529
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,800
That plays into it at certain points.

530
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:43,200
But really, it's a story about the pleasures that come with being alone.

531
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,000
That's something which I can definitely connect with.

532
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:52,040
I'm someone who... I need space away from people sometimes.

533
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,640
I just came back from a solo hiking trip.

534
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:01,760
I don't have anyone else in my life who's interested in going with me on a 150 kilometer

535
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,640
trek across Sweden.

536
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,520
That time to myself, even though there were many, many times when I was out, I was like,

537
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:11,520
I miss people.

538
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:12,880
I wish they were here.

539
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:20,400
The time spent by myself acting under my own power, relying only upon myself, is extremely

540
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,840
rewarding and peaceful.

541
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,120
And I was just going to find out, obviously, I'm a very different human being.

542
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,120
I went to a festival.

543
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,880
I was surrounded by human beings.

544
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,440
But I also... What I really like about this book is that you talk about isolation.

545
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,880
Yes, it's the physical isolation of the island, but there's the isolation early on in the

546
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,800
book where she's at her father's court.

547
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,040
So how I'm going to describe it, he lives in this court.

548
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,320
And she's still isolated, but isolated, surrounded by people.

549
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,160
And what I think is so beautiful is like...

550
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,240
She's ostracized in that group.

551
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,040
She's othered while surrounded by people.

552
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,320
So when she's separated from them, there's actual tangible distance.

553
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,880
That isolation, it becomes real.

554
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:11,160
And instead of being clamoring isolation, where you are shut up by the silence of noise,

555
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,920
where your voice has no impact and no one will hear you, when you are literally alone

556
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:22,860
and no one can hear you, except for yourself, what can Circe do?

557
00:30:22,860 --> 00:30:25,120
But she can sing to herself.

558
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,760
And I love the fact that she comes into her own power then.

559
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,960
This is story, and I would say that's the running out of... This book is quite episodic.

560
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,400
And I do want to explore each of the episodes individually as we go, because some of them

561
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,920
I absolutely love.

562
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,800
But as a sort of overall, this book is her character development.

563
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:51,680
From wanting to be included in the crowd, to being physically ostracized from it, to

564
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:57,160
being physically isolated from it, but then coming into her own power and going, actually,

565
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,600
I'm happy where I stand.

566
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,320
I do miss people and a level of interaction, and she just enjoy when she does interact,

567
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,200
but she knows that she can survive and manage on her own, and she does.

568
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:14,120
Yeah, there's something about this book, which I, at a certain point, I almost wanted to

569
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,160
call it cottagecore power fantasy.

570
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,860
And it's about, she becomes a witch.

571
00:31:21,860 --> 00:31:28,520
She starts learning how to use herbs and doing magic through classic witchcraft stuff.

572
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,000
Like brewing and mixing up different plants and that.

573
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,200
And what I found really interesting about it is that there's a very deliberate emphasis

574
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,020
on the fact that her power comes from traditionally feminine arts.

575
00:31:42,020 --> 00:31:48,080
This is very deliberately saying stuff which men are not interested in, and they don't

576
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,920
find value in, is the thing that makes her stronger than various gods.

577
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,720
And there's something about that, particularly in the way we talk about she's a witch.

578
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,720
I referenced earlier the court.

579
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:04,800
This story, although it is so deeply rooted in obviously the Greek mythos, is a story

580
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:11,400
that I feel like could be very easily retold in a medieval setting, with a more classic

581
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,120
medieval witch, ostracized and people come to the cottage.

582
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:21,960
But that story of self-empowerment and working outside of society can be taken again and

583
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:22,960
again and again.

584
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,560
Obviously, I think the whole of Greek myths can be praised for that, that you can retell

585
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,280
these stories in different settings than they still fundamentally work.

586
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:36,200
Yeah, Daedalus and Icarus, who are important characters in this book, are so monumentally

587
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:41,480
iconic that people who have absolutely no interest in Greek mythology not only know

588
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:48,080
the story like the back of their hands, but they also incorporate it into all sorts of

589
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,080
other stories.

590
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:54,720
Like the theme of the word Icarus, it has a meaning onto itself now.

591
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,040
It barely even attached itself to a story.

592
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:03,200
Yeah, and I think the phrase, flying too close to the sun, is almost just part of normal

593
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,200
lingo.

594
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:09,120
We all know what you're messing up there.

595
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,760
Let's break down the different episodes.

596
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:18,200
I think they really come down to, aside from the very beginning of a story where it's a

597
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,980
childhood, that is a part of a story, but it's not really worth focusing on too much

598
00:33:22,980 --> 00:33:27,880
because we've already covered the main theme, which is that people are jerks.

599
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,120
I think that you have to focus on the, I've already forgotten his name, Glaucus, the Glaucus

600
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,100
story and the Scylla story, which is connected to that, that leads to her isolation.

601
00:33:38,100 --> 00:33:44,200
You have her being by herself and the introduction of Hermes, so I guess that's another section.

602
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:52,400
There's the Minotaur, there's Medea, there's the sailors, there's Odysseus, and then that's

603
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,400
basically part three is just post-Odysseus part of the story.

604
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,360
Quite right, and kind of moving towards the conclusion.

605
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:06,920
The Glaucus and Scylla, I think this is a real kickoff event.

606
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,760
This is what gets Circe out into the world.

607
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,220
As you said, Geordie, it wasn't apparently part of her original myth.

608
00:34:14,220 --> 00:34:21,040
This is pulling another story, another source, and incorporating Circe into it, but fundamentally

609
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:27,880
this story of a human fisherman who meets Circe, doesn't know she's a god, loves her,

610
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,320
but Circe's sad, she can't be with him forever.

611
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,320
What can she do?

612
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,200
She'll use the deep magics and she'll make him a god.

613
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,280
Well, she doesn't know she has these powers, this is sort of how she discovers that she

614
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,440
has them.

615
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:45,440
She makes a wish come true and she turns him into a god, a god of the sea, an Ariad.

616
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,460
And what does the arsehole do?

617
00:34:47,460 --> 00:34:49,280
He leaves her for someone else.

618
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,840
Yes, he does the classic second act of a rock and roll movie.

619
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,520
He's made it big, he's forgotten where he comes from.

620
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:03,800
Now I suppose what's quite interesting here, just want to pick on the theme here, Circe

621
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,120
gets really angry at this and she takes out, I don't think she takes out Freddie on him,

622
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,960
she takes out the person that he leaves her for, Scylla.

623
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,840
He's interested in Scylla, a nymph from Helios' court.

624
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:21,800
And she takes her friends on Scylla by transforming her into an iconic monster from the Greek

625
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:22,800
myth.

626
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,520
I believe this is part of Jason's story from like the Clashing Rocks.

627
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:29,520
What's it called again?

628
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:30,520
It's The Odyssey.

629
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:31,520
Is it from The Odyssey?

630
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:32,960
It is from The Odyssey.

631
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,240
I've watched too much of Jason and the Argonauts.

632
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:37,400
I don't think it's from there.

633
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,880
I don't think they feature in Jason and the Argonauts, that might be just in the movie

634
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:41,880
version.

635
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:42,880
What is actually, is it called?

636
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:43,880
Is it called Scylla?

637
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:44,880
Scylla and Charybdis?

638
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:51,800
Yes, Scylla is the dog-headed serpent monster in the high cliff and Charybdis is like this

639
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:58,320
evil, evil whirlpool that sucks in ships, which isn't actually named in this book.

640
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,560
She's not called Charybdis, it's just a regular whirlpool.

641
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:09,160
So what Duncan is referring to is the Simpligates, I think it's pronounced from Jason and the

642
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:10,160
Argonauts.

643
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,160
I hadn't realised that he was asking me what it was called.

644
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:19,680
So yeah, Simpligates, the clashing rocks, which are these two cliffs that just smash

645
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,760
into each other and squish any ships that happen to come through.

646
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,840
Interesting but, sorry, I've just remembered, I'm thinking of Percy Jackson and the Sea

647
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:30,840
of Monsters.

648
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:36,080
Okay, well now we're getting somewhere.

649
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,600
That's my education in Greek myths.

650
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:44,160
Yes, and what I really like about this is that Circe is, obviously this is an event

651
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,240
that gets her banished from the court for doing this horrific thing and talking about

652
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:53,720
it because she touched the deep magic, but she's shown us to be wrong about this.

653
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:59,600
She should have taken it out on Scylla and also Gloucose, despite the fact that obviously

654
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,600
he's a bit of an arse.

655
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,160
Gloucose, yep, good old looking after the diabetics there.

656
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,800
Despite the fact that we as a reader, Simpligates and Circe, and you're like, you arse.

657
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,880
There's also this, there is a bit of a layer here, where you're like, well he didn't ask

658
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,880
her to make him immortal, and also just because someone makes you immortal doesn't mean you

659
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,840
owe them eternity.

660
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,520
He also doesn't know.

661
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:24,620
Yes.

662
00:37:24,620 --> 00:37:27,500
He doesn't know that she made him immortal.

663
00:37:27,500 --> 00:37:29,360
She hides that from him.

664
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,800
They believe she tells him that it was just his fate, that he was destined to become a

665
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,160
god, and everyone else agrees, yes it was destiny, it must be it, because there's no

666
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,360
way for a mortal to become a god, except for all the times that it happens.

667
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,840
I swear Zeus just has like a magic pot of nectar.

668
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,120
He's just like, here have a jug of that.

669
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,720
The classic thing is that they're like, yeah well turn him into a god, we will, we will.

670
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:56,240
Turn him into stars, turn him into a constellation, we don't want to add any more gods.

671
00:37:56,240 --> 00:38:00,640
So you know, he's like, well you haven't actually done something wrong, and also the

672
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,160
fact that she doesn't express her emotions at all and she just takes him out violently

673
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:10,960
on, again, a bit of an arse, but ultimately a sort of an innocent party, it's clearly

674
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,240
displayed as wrong and I think it really gets you on this interesting footwear where you're

675
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:19,240
like, Circe has done something wrong, Circe is not necessarily a good person, she's not

676
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:20,640
as bad as a lot of the other people.

677
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:28,780
Yes, she's lashed out in anger and transformed someone into what she thinks they are.

678
00:38:28,780 --> 00:38:34,440
So she believes at first that her powers of transformation, again at the beginning she

679
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,720
doesn't think that they are her powers, she thinks they're the powers of some magical

680
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:40,840
plants.

681
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,240
She thinks what they do is they reveal the true form of something.

682
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:50,040
So she believes that Glaucus, you know, deep down he is noble enough to be a god, so when

683
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:57,320
he lays down in these flowers, he becomes a god, and that proves her theory correct.

684
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,160
And so she believes that when she scatters these same flowers upon Scylla's river or

685
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,720
stream or what have you, it turns her into this hideous monster, well that just reveals

686
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:10,080
that deep down she was a monster.

687
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:15,400
But no, that's not what it does, it reveals only her perception of what they are, she

688
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:22,920
transforms people into what she believes they are deep down, which is of course going to

689
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,160
be very relevant when it comes to sailors later in the story.

690
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:32,720
It is indeed, and I think it's nice not to have Circe as just a pure good side.

691
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:36,600
Obviously that one in jail with her most famous studding in the Odyssey, and I also think

692
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:42,200
it's quite nice where I don't, or at least I think at this point in the novel, I don't

693
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,800
look at this as, oh, this is just the horrible world getting to her.

694
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,160
Like there's a bit in her which still has a bit of a mean streak that still lashes out,

695
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,000
and that's something that she has to overcome.

696
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:58,400
She's transformed someone against her will just like all the other Greek gods, you know,

697
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,800
deep down she's done the exact same thing that she condemns a lot of them for.

698
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,600
And that's really good, that gives her a place to work from and not be 100% misunderstood

699
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,880
or 100% this is a good person, it's the world that's corrupting them, because I think I

700
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,920
wouldn't have found that nearly as engaging.

701
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,040
So I'm very happy that this sort of decision was made, and I know if this wasn't part of

702
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:22,160
her story, I think it's really great to attach it to her in this book, because it kind of

703
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,720
sets us up on this arc for her to have while she's on the island.

704
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:30,120
Yes, exactly, and once she is on the island, as we've said, you know, there's this really

705
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:36,080
beautiful part where she is basically completely by herself, and it becomes about this character,

706
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:41,120
you know, learning to live by herself, and she comes to her own power through explorations

707
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:46,600
in witchcraft, and then a very interesting change is made to the story, which is that

708
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:52,800
Hermes is introduced as her main confidant.

709
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,000
Yes he is, and Hermes is an interesting character, obviously I'm most familiar with him in this

710
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,200
characterisation in the Percy Jackson books.

711
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,160
Yes, of course.

712
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,080
So it's really nice to see him here, he's introduced as her confidant, I basically felt

713
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:11,200
this in my book, like, and possibly quite rightfully, never really trusted Hermes, it

714
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:12,920
just felt like...

715
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,320
That's prudent and wise Duncan.

716
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:21,880
So she's just like, you are just like all the others, I'm confident you are, you might

717
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,720
not be showing it, but I am very confident you are not a nice guy deep deep deep deep

718
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:29,840
deep down, or maybe you are, but it is very deep.

719
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:35,400
Hermes is such a classic character because he's an archetypical trickster character,

720
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:40,760
and if you've read your, oh god I wish I could remember his name, it's my first year of study

721
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,560
at university, but there was this fella, I might look him up whilst I'm editing this.

722
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:52,560
I was referring to Lewis Hyde's work, Trickster Makes This World, Myth, Mischief and Art.

723
00:41:52,560 --> 00:42:02,400
But he said of characters like Hermes and Mercury and Loki and the hare in certain Indian

724
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:08,680
American mythologies, that they are the characters who make the world more interesting, they

725
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:15,320
break the rules, and in doing so they invent the world anew.

726
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:23,360
So Hermes has always been this really iconic and persevering character, he shows up so

727
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:32,280
often in modern iconography, far more than even Zeus.

728
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,720
He sticks with people because he's interesting and he's fascinating and he's adaptable as

729
00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:43,200
a character, someone we want to see explored because he is puckish and roguish, and he

730
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,480
has maybe a dark edge to him.

731
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:50,600
He's the god who protects travellers and doctors, but he's also the god of thieves.

732
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,720
And I think those kind of characteristics then lead into his often being characterised

733
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:56,400
with a lot of charisma.

734
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,120
Which is appropriate for the story.

735
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,960
Exactly, and also I feel like because he's not the guy on top, you feel like he doesn't

736
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,600
have this much of a daily function, it's fun to see, he can move into different modes and

737
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,720
he clearly has more different personalities that come forth.

738
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:16,240
But obviously back to where he is in Circe, you say a confidant, a little bit more than

739
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:17,760
just a confidant, Geordie?

740
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,400
Yes, so he's also her lover.

741
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:26,680
Their relationship is really interesting and strange because like you Duncan, she enjoys

742
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,760
Hermes' company.

743
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:34,440
For one thing, he's the only person visiting her, period, because he's the messenger.

744
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,800
But also, you can't trust him at all.

745
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:43,440
She knows that, I said, I used the word confidant because I was leading into this, but actually

746
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,000
he's not a confidant at all.

747
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:50,560
Because everything he tells her, he spreads around, he's a total gossip.

748
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:58,680
She knows that he leaves him and he spins the worst possible image of her across Mount

749
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,520
Olympus and the realms of the Titans.

750
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:02,640
She just doesn't care.

751
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:03,880
She puts it behind her.

752
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,160
She needs his company.

753
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:06,600
She enjoys his company.

754
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,360
She enjoys having sex with him.

755
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:09,360
So she puts up with it.

756
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,000
I mean, to be fair, this isn't actually one of the low points in the story.

757
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,200
We're talking about consistent slaps in the face.

758
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,160
This is probably one of the milder hits that she has.

759
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:19,160
Yeah, for sure.

760
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,760
I barely even registered this one.

761
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,240
But Geordie, this is a very short-lived.

762
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,400
This is, like I said, this is one of the more of the episodes.

763
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:32,280
Yes, but I will say that what it did set up for me, and I like this, this is the first

764
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,480
proper, this is a wind-up punch.

765
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:43,080
I wouldn't say it lands that hard, but when Hermes is introduced as her one person she

766
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:51,640
can reliably talk to and that she can not trust, but she can have nearby, that's someone

767
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:58,320
she can rely upon to talk to and to hear her, knowing that it's Hermes who's going

768
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,720
to betray her to Odysseus, that's the first wind-up punch in this book.

769
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:04,400
I'm like, okay, right.

770
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,040
Way ahead of time, you've set up for a disaster to happen.

771
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,120
She is going to be betrayed.

772
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:18,480
Ultimately, that punch just doesn't land because at that point in the story she's been

773
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,760
betrayed so many times, but I guess she just doesn't care anymore.

774
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,360
She's just like, oh, I was betrayed.

775
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,160
Well, so it goes.

776
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:28,160
So you don't get the full impact.

777
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:29,160
Very much how I felt.

778
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,600
It's one of those things, talking about wind-up, you're like, okay, we're going to hit you

779
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:39,420
with this later, and then you proceed to get such a battering, you're already on the ground,

780
00:45:39,420 --> 00:45:41,400
and then they just come up and give you a little kick.

781
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:42,840
Doesn't have the oomph.

782
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:43,840
I really did like that.

783
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,960
One of my bits where I really think I stepped up into, not that I wasn't liking the book,

784
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,680
but my liking of this book went up a notch at this next stage, and that's when Daedalus

785
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:53,680
steps in.

786
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,520
Yes, I definitely enjoyed Daedalus as a presence.

787
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,240
Again, there's a reason why people are so hooked on the story of Icarus.

788
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:06,800
People are fascinated by this character, and Daedalus stands out a lot in the canon of

789
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:12,000
the Greek myths, just like Odysseus, because he's a hero who's clever.

790
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,560
He's not strong and brave.

791
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:18,760
He's not exactly a hero either, but he stands out very significantly.

792
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:24,200
Exactly, and for those who don't know a little bit about Daedalus, I love how this

793
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,480
book puts across one of the things that he does, and we all know he does this.

794
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:33,480
It's in the myths, it's in the stories, but when you have actual characters speaking out,

795
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:38,800
this section, oh, Geordie, stomach-turning, because Daedalus has been sent by Circe's

796
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:46,760
sister, the Queen of Crete, wife to King Minos, or Minos, and I will try and pronounce her

797
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:47,760
name.

798
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,600
Circe's sister, Queen of Crete, is Pasiphaë.

799
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,840
I've got it here in front of me as a Pasiphaë.

800
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,840
Pasiphaë, lovely.

801
00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:02,720
Pasiphaë, the one who birthed the Minotaur, and Geordie, when they describe the fact that

802
00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:07,280
Daedalus, the great inventor, made her a cow costume.

803
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:08,280
Yep.

804
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:09,280
Oh, this was stomach-turning.

805
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:10,280
Bestiality, no.

806
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:18,800
Listen, man, Greek myths are just not for you, because that is like, I don't know, the fourth

807
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:20,800
biggest instance of it.

808
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:29,480
In the myth, I think it was Ovid's version of the myth of Arachne, Arachne paints a bunch

809
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,880
of different times where Zeus has raped women in the forms of animals, and one of them is

810
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,000
in the form of a grape.

811
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,000
Sorry?

812
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:39,000
Yeah.

813
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:45,560
Listen, my year 11 ancient history class really tried to puzzle that one out.

814
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,120
We never got an answer.

815
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,480
Just hands in the air, sir, sir, how?

816
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,360
Yes, we were all doing that.

817
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,840
Also, definitely the earliest pickle-rig joke.

818
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:55,880
I'm sorry, that's terrible.

819
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:56,880
Disgusting.

820
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:57,880
Right.

821
00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:59,760
Yeah, this is a really stomach-turning scene.

822
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:05,640
I love the birthing of the Minotaur that Pacifica gives birth to Circe's daughter as a midwife.

823
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:06,640
Yeah, that was fucked up.

824
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:12,560
Holy Prometheus by Ridley Scott, not Prometheus who's also in this book, Batman.

825
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,740
That was so gross.

826
00:48:14,740 --> 00:48:18,600
I think this is a really great scene, though, because you're talking about fulfilling sort

827
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,760
of traditional women's roles in society.

828
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,480
Circe's the midwife.

829
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,160
Yeah, yeah.

830
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:27,320
Hardcore midwifery.

831
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:28,320
Very hardcore.

832
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,600
No, this is berserk level midwifery.

833
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,960
But despite the fact that she bears a flesh-eating monster that kills people right off the bat

834
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:36,960
and takes several fingers.

835
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:37,960
The Minotaur.

836
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:38,960
The Minotaur.

837
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,500
I really like the fact that she does do the midwifery job.

838
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:44,920
She hates her sister.

839
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:50,040
She's birthing a demon, but she's like, okay, I'm going to get this baby out of you.

840
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:51,040
I'm going to make sure you don't die.

841
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,720
I'm going to make sure it doesn't die.

842
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:54,720
This will not be easy.

843
00:48:54,720 --> 00:48:59,680
I think it's sad that they think the baby Minotaur is ugly, because I've seen some drawings

844
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,920
of baby Minotaurs and they look pretty adorable.

845
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:03,920
Think about it.

846
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,480
Think about a little calf on a toddler's body.

847
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:07,480
Isn't that adorable?

848
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,480
Yeah, I think it kind of is, too.

849
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,000
I'm like, yeah, calves are cute.

850
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:12,000
Babies are cute.

851
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,000
Yeah.

852
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,080
Bingo bango.

853
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:19,760
I think that baby should be loved and cherished and not immediately put into a sack.

854
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:20,760
I agree with you, Geordie.

855
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:26,040
Also, though, I've never understood, like, the Minotaur is like this flesh eating monster.

856
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,520
And I'm like, but aren't bulls herbivores?

857
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,880
Not all of them are herbivores in Greek mythology.

858
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,600
Remind me to tell you about Diomedes' horses.

859
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:37,600
Okay.

860
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:38,600
Another day.

861
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:39,760
I'm scared.

862
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,320
So we have this really strong scene for her and I love it.

863
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,960
I also really like the fact that Daedalus in this scene...

864
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,840
Geordie, when I first read this book, I'll be honest with you.

865
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,640
I'd half forgotten who Daedalus was.

866
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,360
I was like, yeah, chill, chill, chill, chill, chill.

867
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,640
And then there's a scene later where little kid Icarus comes running in and I go, oh,

868
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,240
I remember now who you are.

869
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:04,480
Oh, you got wind up punched.

870
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,080
I guess that one's more of a rabbit punch.

871
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:07,320
You got sneak attacked.

872
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:08,320
Really effective.

873
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,560
And I'll say, like, you take these mythological characters, but once you connect them, I'm

874
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:16,720
thinking I think connecting with Daedalus over Icarus, you're like, oh, no, I know the

875
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:18,800
pain you're going to go through.

876
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,080
And what I also thought was really interesting in this story is actually that, you know,

877
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,600
the story of Daedalus and Icarus, we kind of jump over.

878
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,200
It's a bit of a time skip for Circe.

879
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,560
She goes back to our island after burying the Minotaur.

880
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:29,560
Yes.

881
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:30,960
And she saw just his about it later.

882
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:31,960
And I thought...

883
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:36,960
Yes, I wanted to bring it up, but you had just brought up Daedalus and I didn't want

884
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:37,960
to interrupt.

885
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:44,000
But actually, Hermes' role in the story is really specific, which is that he's the exposition

886
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:45,000
guy.

887
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:51,160
So this story covers centuries past, well, millennia passing, but the part of her being

888
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:52,920
on the island covers centuries.

889
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:57,080
And they go through a bunch of different ancient Greek heroes.

890
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,000
And Hermes is the guy who's going to fill in the gaps after those characters are dead

891
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,920
and gone and they've left the island and Circe can't possibly learn about them.

892
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:11,960
And her, like, going to visit the Minotaur on Crete is like a very special exception

893
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,560
where she's led off her island.

894
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:18,640
For the rest of the story, for the most part, until the very end, she never leaves.

895
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:23,000
But what I love about this is that I think it helps keep the story really laser focused

896
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:24,000
on Circe.

897
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:29,200
Like, we're not going to go off and have any interactions or see things from Daedalus'

898
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:30,200
perspective.

899
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,200
Although I would love to read it in Madame Minot's voice.

900
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,200
Like, she's an excellent author.

901
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:36,880
Yes, exactly.

902
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,800
That's exactly what I thought when we got to the Medea section of the book.

903
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,600
I was worried to begin with that when Circe...

904
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:49,200
Unfortunately, Duncan, I've been hoodwinked because I've been saying Circe for weeks

905
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:50,800
and weeks and weeks and leading up to this.

906
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,000
But now I'm talking about you and I'm going on autopilot.

907
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,680
I have, I have succumbed to peer pressure.

908
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:03,520
When Circe is talking to Medea about the horrible adventures she's been on, slicing

909
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,740
up her little brother, I was really thinking like, oh man, does this mean we're not going

910
00:52:07,740 --> 00:52:12,840
to get Madeline Miller's version of Medea because I legitimately think it would be perfect

911
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:13,840
for her.

912
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:22,320
It's a dark, sad story where it really changes depending on whose character you see it from.

913
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:30,080
The story of Jason and Medea told from Jason's perspective and Medea is pure evil and a psycho.

914
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,800
But if you do it from Medea's perspective and from an ancient Greek perspective, she's

915
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,000
actually kind of the only one who's following the rules.

916
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,680
Again, not overly familiar with what you're referring to.

917
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:46,560
I think I know someone definitely murders someone else's kids and they do end up divorced.

918
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,760
Jason and Medea have two daughters together?

919
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:49,760
Uh, this is incorrect.

920
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:56,760
I was thinking of how Medea has two daughters kill their father in order to better Jason's

921
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:57,760
chances of winning a throw.

922
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:58,760
Because she's great.

923
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:03,760
They actually have like a bunch of children depending on the story between two and fourteen.

924
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,760
Oh, but Medea also kills two of them.

925
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:08,800
Which might be what I was thinking of.

926
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:14,680
And they are neglected when Jason marries a more proper bride.

927
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:21,120
Like even though he's married still to Medea, they have not gotten divorced and Hera is

928
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,840
furious about this and Hera is Jason's patron god.

929
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:35,240
So Medea has his children murdered and like destroys his entire life and she leaves and

930
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:39,160
she escapes and she like is never actually harmed.

931
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:43,040
Like she doesn't get punished by the gods because she's been the one who's been following

932
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,560
the rules even though she like murders her own brother.

933
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:47,560
It's all okay.

934
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:48,560
It's all kosher.

935
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:54,400
And then Jason has like the most depressing end for all Greek heroes, which is saying

936
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:59,280
something which is that he returns to the Argonaut.

937
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:00,280
You know, his boat.

938
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:01,280
No, sorry, the Argonaut.

939
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,480
He turns to the Argo.

940
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:08,560
He is an Argonaut and he says, “everyone has deserted me.

941
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,320
All of my sailing friends have gone home.

942
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,600
I've lost all the treasures that I sought.

943
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,200
It was all for nothing.

944
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,360
I lost both my wives.

945
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,240
You're my only friend.”

946
00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:24,120
And then the mast head of the Argo breaks off, falls down, cracks him on the head and

947
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:25,120
he dies.

948
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:26,120
Oh, that's sad.

949
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:27,120
That's not heroic.

950
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,120
That is not noble.

951
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:29,120
Oh, yeah, that dude's sad.

952
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:36,360
And he's just straight up not a good hero.

953
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:37,360
I'm sorry.

954
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,560
I know you love Jason and the Argonauts, the movie.

955
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:45,240
And I don't think I don't know how your version of that story ends by very much doubt.

956
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:49,520
It's like, no, quite famously, I say quite famous, probably not actually, probably quite

957
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,400
obscure by all accounts.

958
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,200
That film ends on a, or there be a sequel.

959
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:59,080
It literally ends on the happiest point of the story where they set sail with the fleece

960
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:05,160
in one hand, Medea on his arm, and it's like, let's go home and then just roll credits.

961
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:09,080
So literally the exact second before everything goes wrong.

962
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:10,080
Completely.

963
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,320
It's just the heroic bits.

964
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,160
And they even cut out the murder of Medea's brother.

965
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,480
Just like, it's just like the Northern Lights movie, The Golden Compass.

966
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,400
Yes, yes, exactly like that.

967
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,480
Jason and the Argonauts is a fantastic movie, effects by Ray Harryhausen.

968
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,640
I was obsessed as a nerdy teenager with stop motion animation.

969
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,520
It didn't go anywhere, but it was a weird obsession.

970
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:32,520
I had a few.

971
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:33,520
Right.

972
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,920
So yeah, I would love to see a story from Medea's side, but this isn't it.

973
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:41,440
I like the fact that we see laser focus on Circe because one, I think it super reflects

974
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,240
her immortality.

975
00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:47,280
The fact that these other stories, as you've accounted, sometimes centuries later, and

976
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,320
she's just got to go, oh, humans.

977
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:51,320
Am I right?

978
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,480
Yeah, she predicts that she's born before human beings exist.

979
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,320
So I think that's really well done.

980
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:58,560
You mentioned Medea.

981
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,600
That does bring us to the next sort of episode.

982
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:02,600
They kind of have interaction.

983
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:03,600
They stop off.

984
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,120
She has a really nice chat with Medea.

985
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:09,720
I think Circe recognized Medea as a, I don't know, a witch.

986
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:10,720
Yeah.

987
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:11,720
I was about to say like a sister.

988
00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:12,720
A human witch.

989
00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:13,720
Yeah.

990
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:15,280
Someone that I think they have a connection.

991
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,520
They're like, okay, we're both witches.

992
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,840
We're both trying to get what we want.

993
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,680
And I really like the fact that at this stage, now you've told me that information, Circe

994
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,720
kind of has this conversation with Medea, which is like, you can't trust him.

995
00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:27,720
You can't trust anyone.

996
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:29,280
They're all going to betray you in the end.

997
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,680
And Medea's like, no, Jason loves me.

998
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:35,120
Thank you for telling me where that goes.

999
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:36,640
Yeah.

1000
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,840
I think Hermes does give you a Cliff Notes version where he says, “and she went back to

1001
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,320
her dad and I guess she wasn't in trouble or whatever.”

1002
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,200
But yeah.

1003
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:55,880
So that story, it serves as this moment of Circe trying to act.

1004
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:01,880
She's a sort of Cassandra figure in a lot of this book because no one will ever listen

1005
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:03,440
to her.

1006
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:08,640
Not even Odysseus will really listen to her when she comes to give him advice.

1007
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,160
And they will all end up paying for it.

1008
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,440
And that's again, part of the dramatic irony.

1009
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,920
Even when she's in her own power.

1010
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:22,080
Even when she's by herself, she can't be disrespected by everyone all over again.

1011
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,160
She's still neglected.

1012
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:30,960
She's still forgotten because she has wisdom to give hard earned knowledge and no one wants

1013
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:31,960
it.

1014
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:32,960
No one wants to listen to her.

1015
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:34,720
They're the hard truth, Geordie.

1016
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,960
Come on, let's listen to some nice easy lies.

1017
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:41,120
You don't want to know that people are going to stop loving us and leave us.

1018
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:42,120
You're right.

1019
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:43,480
We don't want to hear that.

1020
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:44,480
Nope.

1021
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:45,480
But it doesn't mean it's not true.

1022
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:46,480
I think.

1023
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,160
And you know what?

1024
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,040
I think this sounds really awful.

1025
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:51,400
I don't want to say this.

1026
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:56,040
I think there are going to be different readers who may empathise with that in particular

1027
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:57,040
a lot more.

1028
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:58,040
Sure.

1029
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,000
I think it's definitely something where I was reading this and maybe this comparing

1030
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,560
it off as someone with Achilles was like, oh, this is really interesting.

1031
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:09,640
This isn't something that I personally can fully step into, but I think this has been

1032
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:10,640
portrayed really well.

1033
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,280
And I think as someone who maybe has felt this more in their life or feels that way

1034
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:20,880
at the moment, like this book could be a cathartic read to kind of see those emotions play out

1035
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,520
in a character and experience their whole story.

1036
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:30,440
I think it's now worth getting into what I feel is now I couldn't I wasn't tracking this

1037
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,440
properly, but I reckon it's basically the second half of the book.

1038
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:39,360
And that is like the period of the book that leads directly up to the Odyssey.

1039
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:45,320
It covers her relationship with Odysseus and then the aftermath of the Odyssey.

1040
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,360
Do you think there's about 50%?

1041
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:48,360
I think so.

1042
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,400
It's only 50% maybe page count.

1043
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,280
I don't know if it was 50% in like happening.

1044
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,600
I think things do slow down a lot because we're really playing out over much.

1045
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:57,600
Yes, they do.

1046
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:05,440
Literally they slow down because millennia happened in the first half and then 20 years

1047
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:06,440
in the second.

1048
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:07,440
Yeah, about that.

1049
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:08,440
Kids got to get older.

1050
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:10,000
They got to meet.

1051
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:14,680
It does perturb me that we've spoken for an hour about the half of the book, which is not

1052
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,840
about what we want to talk about.

1053
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,200
And we normally do 80 minute episodes.

1054
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:26,600
So maybe maybe I got to cut out some of our talk about the Minotaur.

1055
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:30,560
But I guess it depends how much you want to talk about the stuff with Odysseus.

1056
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:36,000
I get before we do that, though, we have to talk about content warnings.

1057
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:37,480
Hooray.

1058
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,080
Yes.

1059
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:44,400
And it's really interesting to say that I want to talk about this is a very challenging

1060
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:46,000
bit of the book.

1061
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:52,320
Before Odysseus formally steps in, we have the sexual assault of Circe by a group of

1062
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:53,320
male sailors.

1063
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:55,520
In particular, I think it's their captain.

1064
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,440
I say sexual assault rape.

1065
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:04,120
And it is a very hard thing to read.

1066
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:05,120
I think it was done very well.

1067
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:06,120
Yeah, it was it was awful.

1068
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,080
It was a horrible, horrible scene.

1069
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,400
I think Bannon Miller does a very good job.

1070
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:19,080
And I think compared to other fiction that we've ever read in terms of keeping this both

1071
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:20,080
focused on the victim.

1072
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:22,280
Yes, focused on the victim.

1073
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:28,080
Things are have a visceral feeling, but I don't think they're too explicitly graphic.

1074
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:34,080
And yeah, I focus heavily on not only obviously the emotional trauma of the event, but very

1075
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:39,800
much the latter half of this book is then, you know, exploring the character and from

1076
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:43,000
the fallout of it and how this impacts her.

1077
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:48,840
So yes, because what you need to get from you need to get from sympathetic Circe never

1078
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:49,840
did anything wrong.

1079
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:54,680
Not really, except for that one time she made a monster out of out of Scylla.

1080
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:59,880
And now you need to turn her into why is she turning everyone who visits her islands into

1081
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:01,880
pigs in the Odyssey?

1082
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:08,440
Because in the Odyssey, Circe is one of the many villains that Odysseus face on her journey.

1083
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:15,400
You have cyclopses, you have other giants that eat people, you have lotus eaters.

1084
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:16,680
And now you've got a new one.

1085
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,280
You've got an evil witch who he has to outfox.

1086
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:24,480
And in a feminist retelling of that story, how do you reframe it?

1087
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,840
And the answer, it almost just rolls off the tongue.

1088
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:39,880
Like the fact that Circe turns men into pigs is so directly in line with like standard

1089
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:44,360
like blasé feminist language from the mid 20th century saying men are pigs as a sort

1090
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:52,360
of, you know, a blasé throwaway way to express frustrations at the cruelty and and and the

1091
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,480
crassness of men.

1092
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,460
It just it the stars align.

1093
01:01:56,460 --> 01:01:58,160
It's so obvious.

1094
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,640
And links right back to the start of the novel.

1095
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:05,640
Circe's magic, she can transform people into what she thinks of their true selves.

1096
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,880
But it's really how she views them.

1097
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:09,880
She thinks they're pigs.

1098
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:11,780
She turns them into pigs.

1099
01:02:11,780 --> 01:02:12,780
And she kills them.

1100
01:02:12,780 --> 01:02:17,560
She doesn't just she doesn't just, you know, turn them into pigs.

1101
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:23,460
She's explicitly now I don't think she's literally eating them, but I do think she's

1102
01:02:23,460 --> 01:02:26,160
feeding them to her cats.

1103
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:28,760
Then I wouldn't even call it cannibalism at this point.

1104
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:29,760
She's technically a god.

1105
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,120
They're technically a pig.

1106
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,920
You know, it's not really even a crossover at any point.

1107
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:36,920
But yes.

1108
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:37,920
OK, Hannibal Lecter.

1109
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,760
It's in the fine print, mate.

1110
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:41,760
What counts?

1111
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,960
Now, how do I kind of talk about this?

1112
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:46,920
I think this does a really good job.

1113
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,480
I think the yes, I think it's well done.

1114
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,480
Yes, it's and it's really hard because it was still hard to read.

1115
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:58,640
It was still challenging, but it was tasteful and I think I don't know how many times she

1116
01:02:58,640 --> 01:02:59,640
rewrote this.

1117
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:01,240
Maybe it was all in one, but she fine tuned.

1118
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:02,480
So I think she gets a good balance.

1119
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,240
I think what's really nicely done is that we see what this does to Circe.

1120
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,240
We see how she responds.

1121
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:14,640
But also going back to that mirroring that early incident with Galkos and Scylla, we

1122
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:19,880
see how in many of it at some points it drives her too far or how exactly like there are

1123
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:25,400
parts where Hermes asks her or maybe it's Odysseus who asks her, how do you determine

1124
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,160
the good men from the bad?

1125
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:28,800
How do you know they deserve it?

1126
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:37,720
And she says, oh no, OK, to be more specific, she makes a parachute for Circe and saying

1127
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,120
sometimes you can just tell they're not bad guys and she doesn't turn them into pigs.

1128
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:42,840
She's saying, well, it's not all of them.

1129
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,080
It's just one she's suspicious of.

1130
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:50,000
But then there's parts where Odysseus says, within a crew, how do you know they're all

1131
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:51,000
bad guys?

1132
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,320
And she says, I don't know and I don't care.

1133
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:54,800
I just do it.

1134
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,400
I mean, our protagonist.

1135
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:03,200
And I think it's really interesting how, for me at least, this is how it made me feel.

1136
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:11,640
I can simultaneously be so much so empathetic to Circe and be like, I'm 100% there with

1137
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:15,960
you why you have gotten to this point on your path.

1138
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:21,280
And at the same time be like, and that is a little bit too much.

1139
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:22,280
I love you.

1140
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:23,280
I want to help you.

1141
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:24,280
Isn't it?

1142
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:25,280
But we've got to step back.

1143
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:30,600
Doesn't it go to show how connected you can be to a character when they're extremely well

1144
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:31,600
written?

1145
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:36,800
That you can watch them do these deeply morally compromised things and still not be on their

1146
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:37,800
side.

1147
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:43,840
And I can empirically say that you have probably done a great deal of evil in this act because

1148
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:49,880
you fed people to pigs without technically knowing that they were going to harm you.

1149
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,520
And you had to be like lions, excuse me.

1150
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:54,080
They were pigs.

1151
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:57,920
And then you think of characters like Rin from the Poppy War.

1152
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:01,400
And something very similar is attempted to be done there.

1153
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:05,560
You're trying to show characters doing morally compromised acts and you have to show them

1154
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:11,160
how they get to that point and it purely comes down to did you do a good job of writing this

1155
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:12,600
character and this story?

1156
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:14,040
Because the answer is yes.

1157
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,400
You can basically have them get away with anything.

1158
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:22,520
Well, I don't know about anything, but your your right is about taking on that journey.

1159
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:25,360
And I think the thing that we're assertive is that we do take the whole of the first

1160
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:26,360
half.

1161
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:29,200
Duncan, do you remember the Wyrmendys Kings?

1162
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:30,200
Yes.

1163
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:34,600
The most destructive act we've seen in any story ever.

1164
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:35,600
Right?

1165
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:36,600
OK, fair enough.

1166
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:37,600
All right.

1167
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:38,600
Yes, you can get away with anything.

1168
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:42,120
Go listen to Wyrmendys Kings.

1169
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:47,960
Someone literally and generally in that novel by the time we get to that short story.

1170
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:48,960
Sorry.

1171
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:49,960
I was like, Fair play.

1172
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:50,960
I'm with you.

1173
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:55,840
Do you want me to keep that or do you want me to censor that and say that was a huge

1174
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:56,840
spoiler?

1175
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,760
Go listen to our episode on the Wyrmendys Kings.

1176
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,360
Definitely the second one.

1177
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:09,680
I'll just do a full 35 second beep to cover all that up.

1178
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:11,560
So anyway, we have this scene.

1179
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:12,560
Odysseus arrives.

1180
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:13,560
And Odysseus arrives.

1181
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:15,160
We're here, Geordie.

1182
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:16,160
It's Troy-ish.

1183
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:19,640
Hooray, it counts.

1184
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:23,000
So Troy has happened by the time Odysseus rocks up.

1185
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:24,000
That's how it works.

1186
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:28,040
It goes to Troy and this is his journey home and he shows up.

1187
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:33,520
And Circe, she's on the pig turning path.

1188
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:34,520
That's her plan.

1189
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:35,520
Odysseus walks in through.

1190
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,280
Now in the classic story, I'm not quite sure how this plays down.

1191
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,480
You know, does he just get away?

1192
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:42,480
Does he outwitter?

1193
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:46,680
Like, how does he deal with her in that story?

1194
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:51,360
So I will lay out the exact differences between this story, okay?

1195
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:52,360
Go for it.

1196
01:06:52,360 --> 01:07:01,000
So in the Odyssey, he and his crew arrive on the island and he says, you guys fan out

1197
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,560
and you go look for food and shelter.

1198
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:07,080
I'm gonna stay with the ship for some reason.

1199
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:11,480
I don't remember if he sends out all his guys or if he goes to nap, which he often does,

1200
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:13,240
or if he sends out some of his guys.

1201
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:17,100
But the point is that a bunch of his guys go out and they don't come back.

1202
01:07:17,100 --> 01:07:22,200
And we know from the narrative of the story that they have been turned into pigs.

1203
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:27,080
A long time passes, Odysseus gets worried, he sets off to try and track down his men.

1204
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:30,960
And then in the forest, he's met by Hermes.

1205
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:34,560
He shows up and says, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, listen up, okay?

1206
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:36,680
There's a witch in this wood called Circe.

1207
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:38,560
She's turned your men into pigs.

1208
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:45,160
Find this magical flower, eat it, and then her spell will not work on you.

1209
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,480
She won't be able to turn you into a pig.

1210
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,560
However, now she gives him really precise instructions.

1211
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:56,720
Take this herb, go to her house, and then let her cast a spell on you, and then produce

1212
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:58,960
your spear and threaten her.

1213
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:05,080
And then she will be powerless and you must take her to your bed, because then you'll

1214
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:10,440
have power over her and she won't be able to harm you and she'll turn your men back.

1215
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,960
And this is like explicit instructions given to him by a god, and he does all of this,

1216
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:19,240
and then he stays on the island for a year, and basically the rest of the stuff that happens

1217
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:20,240
in the book happens.

1218
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:28,480
Whereas, in this book, Odysseus shows up and he doesn't eat the flower.

1219
01:08:28,480 --> 01:08:33,800
In the book, he doesn't trust Hermes enough, but it's also supposed to show that he isn't

1220
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:38,640
planning on conquering Circe through brute force.

1221
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:47,280
It shows that he's this gentler, softer soul, and he's not come to outwit her.

1222
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:57,160
He's come to just be nice, to just ask in a cool, calm way, that she will let, that

1223
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:00,360
she will turn his men back into human beings.

1224
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:04,600
Odysseus, cool guy when he wants to be.

1225
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:06,200
When he wants to be.

1226
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:11,040
So now, there's a very interesting thing that happens.

1227
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:18,760
We get Odysseus, who was an important character within Song of Achilles, and he's depicted

1228
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:20,840
quite differently.

1229
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:27,160
He's clever in both books, but it suddenly became very obvious the ways in which the

1230
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:33,080
perspective character of Circe, who's the one telling this story, and Patroclus in Song

1231
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:37,120
of Achilles really had different relationships with Odysseus.

1232
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:42,200
I remember thinking, while reading Song of Achilles, I can't believe that Madeline Miller

1233
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:49,080
would ever write a story about Odysseus and Circe if this is how she depicts Odysseus,

1234
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:52,200
because he's a jerk, and he's pretty awful.

1235
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:55,680
He's violent, and he's cruel, and he's kind of heartless.

1236
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:59,720
I don't like him at all in this, and that's sad, because Odysseus is one of my favorite

1237
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,760
characters in all of fiction.

1238
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:08,360
But in this, he's suave, and he's devin-air, and he's sensitive, and he's sad, he's deeply,

1239
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:09,360
deeply sad.

1240
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:10,360
It's very interesting.

1241
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:18,040
Something that I really noticed when we went to read Song of Achilles is a different character.

1242
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:25,840
Or the way Madeline Miller's using her perspective license, saying that we're seeing him through

1243
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:30,480
Circe's eyes, as opposed to the eyes of the characters in Song of Achilles, to make him

1244
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:31,480
a very different character.

1245
01:10:31,480 --> 01:10:35,280
I don't know if you've heard it out explicitly, there's a bit where Odysseus says,

1246
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,880
Achilles went a bit crazy after he lost his lover, Patroclus.

1247
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:39,880
He didn't like me much.

1248
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:44,760
And that's nice, because I like the idea that this is still a shared Madeline Miller universe

1249
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:48,120
for Greek mythology.

1250
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:53,800
I think if we didn't have anything, I'd just be like, is this just another one, or are

1251
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:54,800
these linked?

1252
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:55,800
Come on, this is the same universe.

1253
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:56,800
Keep it together.

1254
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:57,800
It is.

1255
01:10:57,800 --> 01:10:58,800
It absolutely is.

1256
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:02,760
I'm very happy about that, and yeah, he is nice.

1257
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:06,000
He is the first genuinely nice guy.

1258
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:07,000
Ish.

1259
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:11,320
I really want to keep saying Ish, and maybe, and kinda.

1260
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:14,480
Yeah, okay, we'll get to that later.

1261
01:11:14,480 --> 01:11:19,400
But so there's this really interesting change that happens here, which is it dramatically

1262
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:26,240
changes Odysseus's one year stay on her island.

1263
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:33,680
Now if you have ever read the Odyssey, and you've talked about it like in a classroom

1264
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:43,720
setting, there is a very understandable modern impulse to go, okay, so Odysseus is our hero,

1265
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:49,360
and his whole mission is he wants to get home, and he loves his wife, and he wants to give

1266
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:52,000
back to his wife.

1267
01:11:52,000 --> 01:12:00,760
But he stays on Circes island for a year, and he sleeps with her all the time, and he's

1268
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:05,880
being unfaithful, and he's not trying to get home.

1269
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:07,640
What's up with that?

1270
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:11,120
And the actual answer is, yeah, this is a Greek myth.

1271
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:13,140
They thought that was fine.

1272
01:12:13,140 --> 01:12:20,640
Him staying for a year is weird, but him sleeping with a woman is justified in the text, and

1273
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:23,400
it was just fine.

1274
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:25,720
She's basically his property after he's won.

1275
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:30,080
Yep, a little uncomfortable version of the Greek myth, but that's why I'm very happy

1276
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:31,880
we get the reimagining.

1277
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:37,160
Exactly, and it is reimagined, because a clear thing that she's trying to do here is that

1278
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,800
she is fighting with the source material, just like in the section where she says he

1279
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:50,400
doesn't eat the herb, he just talks to her, and he's nice to her, and he's kind, and importantly,

1280
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:54,940
she invites him to her bed, like it's in her power.

1281
01:12:54,940 --> 01:13:01,120
This is an act of reclamation of herself and her sexuality.

1282
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:09,040
Odysseus' decision to stay and his relationship to Circes is really fascinating, and it's

1283
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:14,920
probably the most interesting part of the book, because you see ways in which he's doing

1284
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:16,880
this just because he's afraid.

1285
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:24,440
He's afraid to go back to Ithaca, and he's using the domicility of living on her island

1286
01:13:24,440 --> 01:13:31,880
to be as practiced, to say, yes, I remember what it's like to be at home and not at war,

1287
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:38,560
or in an absolutely insane ship, journey by ship.

1288
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:43,480
Very much so, and I think there's also the relationship with him and Circe.

1289
01:13:43,480 --> 01:13:46,520
Again, it develops it more.

1290
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:52,400
He clearly is shown to having far more genuine feelings towards her, and I like that.

1291
01:13:52,400 --> 01:14:00,680
I like the fact that we finally get this moment of no slap in the face for a second.

1292
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:05,000
One person passes you on the street and doesn't hit you.

1293
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:09,200
Not ominous at all for what comes up next.

1294
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:16,400
In this time frame, we also get the fact that Circe becomes pregnant with Odysseus' one

1295
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:22,800
of Odysseus' sons, Telegonus.

1296
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:29,880
This dude is so minor in the mythos that I genuinely do forget that, yeah, I'm pretty

1297
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:38,200
sure this guy does exist, but he's so minor and so small in the canon that I'm like,

1298
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:40,560
does he exist?

1299
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:42,160
Did she make him up?

1300
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:47,960
I can tell you now, he has a Wikipedia page, so he must exist.

1301
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:48,960
Yeah.

1302
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:49,960
That's genuinely-

1303
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:57,640
And the reason why I feel like he doesn't get brought up a lot is that he's a bummer.

1304
01:14:57,640 --> 01:14:58,920
As in, he is very sad.

1305
01:14:58,920 --> 01:14:59,920
To go over this-

1306
01:14:59,920 --> 01:15:00,920
Story.

1307
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:07,720
Yes, to go over this ever so briefly, because I'm just gonna say this, he's not an interesting

1308
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:10,480
character.

1309
01:15:10,480 --> 01:15:13,280
In fact, he's genuinely a bit annoying.

1310
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:20,760
He just represents so many of what all the other heroes have been.

1311
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:21,760
As in-

1312
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:24,280
But just a dumb fuck.

1313
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:30,120
I know this book is sort of about, it's a book about being a woman, and therefore there

1314
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:33,720
are parts that I'm just not gonna grok.

1315
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:41,960
Because one, I'm not a parent, and two, I'm especially not a mother, and three, I'm not

1316
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:45,660
a single mother, which is essentially what this section of the book is about.

1317
01:15:45,660 --> 01:15:50,480
It's about what a nightmare it is to be a single mother, especially when you're alone

1318
01:15:50,480 --> 01:15:55,900
on an island and for some reason you send all the nymphs away.

1319
01:15:55,900 --> 01:15:59,200
And also, the goddess Athena wants to kill your baby.

1320
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:01,640
That sounds really rough.

1321
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:06,960
And yeah, it's about how hard it is to be a mum, to be terrified that you're fucking

1322
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:09,120
up your kid.

1323
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:13,920
It's so much like the previous section of this bit where I explained it as, I love how

1324
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:19,560
this is written, I'm sure this is doing an excellent job, I have so little personal life

1325
01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:27,360
experience, just like the not being listened to elements, I'm sure you're capturing this

1326
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:29,480
really well.

1327
01:16:29,480 --> 01:16:31,000
I just gotta have faith you're doing it.

1328
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:34,560
I'm still empathising with the character, I still have sympathy for the character, so

1329
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:39,440
you're still doing a good job for your story, with just not having that final click.

1330
01:16:39,440 --> 01:16:46,160
And it's not like I can't relate to stories of mothers, I love the fifth season and all

1331
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:52,040
of that trilogy, which is about the fraught relationship between mothers and daughters,

1332
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:56,880
I love the Pixar short bow, I'm the only person I know who does.

1333
01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:01,800
No, it's amazing, and when I first watched that before Incredibles 2, I was like, we

1334
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:03,520
ain't topping this.

1335
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:05,680
It's so good, it's beautiful.

1336
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:07,040
She eats the bow bun.

1337
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:09,360
Oh, I was shocked.

1338
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:11,880
I know, there were gasps in the cinema.

1339
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:14,280
What was I saying before we talked about bow?

1340
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:22,040
So this section, it goes on for a bit, Teleganus is a bit annoying because he's a brat and

1341
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:28,720
he doesn't understand what danger is in, he's a dumb fuck, but also he's a bummer because

1342
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:35,240
he leads into a part of a book, which I just forget about when I think about the myth of,

1343
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:43,520
well not the myth, the poem of Odysseus, which is that he dies.

1344
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:51,240
And Odysseus was such an important, ever present character when I was a boy, and long before

1345
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:56,480
I'd read The Odyssey, which is a challenge, long before I'd read it, I'd listen to a bunch

1346
01:17:56,480 --> 01:18:03,880
of different shorter abridged audio versions of it, which were beautiful and full of great

1347
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:10,400
music and it made it more appropriate for listening to as a kid.

1348
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:16,880
And they do not go to the bit where he dies tragically and pathetically.

1349
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:24,160
Pointlessly, I remember so clearly when we did Song of Achilles and you said these words,

1350
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:28,840
and I'm sure they're recorded, obviously, so you can go back and check, you said, and

1351
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:36,640
so the age of heroes ends when Odysseus gets home and hangs up his cap, that is it, that's

1352
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:37,640
the end.

1353
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:38,640
And I've never just been like-

1354
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:40,120
Shit, I did say that, you're right.

1355
01:18:40,120 --> 01:18:45,120
Oh, no, I've read Circe, definitely goes on a bit longer, definitely not good.

1356
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:48,720
Well, good for you for keeping that to yourself for a year.

1357
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:54,480
And to be honest, this whole section alone kind of makes me wish I didn't read Circe,

1358
01:18:54,480 --> 01:18:57,520
because I hate it, it's so sad.

1359
01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:03,600
It's the ending of so many of the great myths, like even you talked about, Jason has an unfortunate

1360
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:07,720
end, Odysseus, what I really love is leading up to the fact that obviously he dies, I like

1361
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:13,080
the fact that in this, in Circe, we hear about the fact that he struggled, despite

1362
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:17,080
practicing on the island, he struggled to hang up his adventurous cap.

1363
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:24,080
Yeah, that was awful, like him as Vietnam vet Odysseus, like in a constant state of

1364
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:31,640
paranoia and violence, it felt like such a betrayal of the image of Odysseus's return

1365
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:33,320
home that I built up.

1366
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:39,320
To me, Odysseus has always represented the ultimate struggle, as much as the character

1367
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:44,760
like say guts, like someone who has to keep fighting and fighting and fighting and suffering

1368
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:51,960
to just try and get one thing which is to go home and see his wife and his son and his

1369
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:58,360
dog, only to suffer again and again and again and be denied.

1370
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:02,400
The fact that he does get to go home, and he does get to rule over his kingdom and he

1371
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:10,400
does get his wife back was so beautiful and profound to me that any other ending feels

1372
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:14,560
like a genuine portrayal of such an important story in my life.

1373
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:20,120
It would be like if I found out that Willy Wonka just threw Charlie Bucket out of that

1374
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:23,120
elevator.

1375
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:28,240
Oh, I mean.

1376
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:32,800
I guess if I just read the next book that came after, because apparently it's bad.

1377
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:35,840
Oh, Willy Wonka and the Great Glass Elevator.

1378
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:36,840
Yes.

1379
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:37,840
Mate, it's weird.

1380
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:43,520
They go to outer space, they talk to the President of America, they fight aliens.

1381
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:44,520
It's insane.

1382
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:46,240
I have no time for that.

1383
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:47,240
Right, yes.

1384
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:54,600
It's really sad and it definitely puts a melancholy end on another Greek hero, which obviously

1385
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:59,600
so many of them had, I'm sorry it did so much to destroy your image of him, like the only

1386
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:05,760
heroic one who doesn't end up, you know, he gets his normal life.

1387
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:11,800
But it does transition us into the next path of this plot, moving towards the end of Circe.

1388
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:14,840
Circe has to do with the fact that Odysseus is dead, he's killed, sorry, I don't think

1389
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:21,680
we made it clear, he's killed by his son, Telangos, I'm going to go with, because she

1390
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:29,920
sends Telangos off to meet his father, complications ensues, and he stabs Odysseus with a magic

1391
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:30,920
spear.

1392
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:36,360
Yeah, the super duper poisonous spear, which is the way all good heroes should die.

1393
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:43,040
And then Penelope, Odysseus' wife, and Telemachus flee to her island for reasons.

1394
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:48,840
I think Telemachus is afraid that he'll be blamed for his father's death for some reason.

1395
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:56,600
But the real reason is Penelope is like, Athena, the patron of Odysseus, will want Telemachus

1396
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:01,960
to take his father's place as the great hero, the great strategist.

1397
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:07,000
And so she flees to this island because Circe has made it so that Athena cannot enter this

1398
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:12,440
island, so that she cannot kill her child because he was destined to kill Odysseus.

1399
01:22:12,440 --> 01:22:17,680
I'll be honest, at this particular point, I do feel like the emotional resonance gets

1400
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:22,160
a little lost with a little bit of too much maneuvering of characters.

1401
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:25,600
Yeah, it slows down a bit here.

1402
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:28,280
Particularly compared to the rest of the book, or yeah, the entire rest of the book, where

1403
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:35,140
we keep it so laser focused on Circe and her emotional story and her character growth,

1404
01:22:35,140 --> 01:22:36,840
this gets a little wibbly wobbly.

1405
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:44,880
But to vaguely sum up, Circe's son by Odysseus, it takes Athena's offer and goes off to do

1406
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:50,800
a lot of the work, and Circe gets a liking to Odysseus's other son by Penelope, and Circe

1407
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:54,840
goes off to her banishment ends.

1408
01:22:54,840 --> 01:22:58,480
Honestly, I'm saying it so blasé because for me, it was really blasé.

1409
01:22:58,480 --> 01:22:59,480
I had very little emotions.

1410
01:22:59,480 --> 01:23:00,960
Yeah, it's like the end of Red Dead Redemption.

1411
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:02,840
Sorry, not Red Dead Redemption.

1412
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:06,000
It's like the end of, what the fuck's that book called?

1413
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:12,360
Stephen King, it's about a prison, Shawshank Redemption, where he's like, I would like

1414
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:17,360
to leave prison now, and they say, yeah, all right, and he does.

1415
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:19,240
Great moments.

1416
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:22,880
And it's just good fact, she blackmails her dad, he speaks to Zeus, there's this whole

1417
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:27,280
bit where it's just like Helio, she was always looking down on me, even when I think it was

1418
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:28,280
going awful.

1419
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:32,160
Anyway, she goes off and we have what I actually think is the emotional strong point of the

1420
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:33,160
story.

1421
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:37,240
She goes still with Scylla, and this is the bit where she realises her mistakes.

1422
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:41,760
We've said it before, she goes too far, she lashes out at the wrong people, she's not

1423
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:45,400
really turning them into what they are, what she thinks they are, and she finally recognises

1424
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:46,400
it.

1425
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:47,400
And...

1426
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:51,720
She doesn't turn Scylla back, turns her to stone, but that's Greek myths for you.

1427
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:55,320
If there's ever an insurmountable problem in Greek mythology, you should just turn someone

1428
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:56,320
into stone.

1429
01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:57,920
It worked for Perseus.

1430
01:23:57,920 --> 01:23:59,280
Just do it all the time.

1431
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:02,240
I don't know what happened to Medusa's head, it's got to be kicking around somewhere.

1432
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:08,960
I would love to know what your canon is, where Medusa's head went after that.

1433
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:13,680
Medusa, she turns Scylla to stone and she puts her great sin to rest.

1434
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:16,360
Now she's free, she can do as she pleases.

1435
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,640
And she and Telemachus are free together.

1436
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:25,120
He's freed of her destiny, she's free of her imprisonment, and then for some reason, they

1437
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:28,240
become a couple.

1438
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:30,480
This feels very out of place.

1439
01:24:30,480 --> 01:24:31,480
I will say...

1440
01:24:31,480 --> 01:24:33,720
This feels really fetishy.

1441
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:36,240
So this is in the myth.

1442
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:39,160
So Circe gets with...

1443
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:40,160
Is it now?

1444
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:41,160
Yes.

1445
01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:42,160
Really?

1446
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:45,800
This is part of the original story and you never guess what else.

1447
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:51,680
Who do you think Odysseus' son by Circe ends up with?

1448
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:56,000
God, I really couldn't... not Penelope?

1449
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:57,000
Yes, Penelope.

1450
01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:58,000
What?

1451
01:24:58,000 --> 01:24:59,000
No!

1452
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:00,000
That's gross.

1453
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:05,840
In some accounts, in some accounts, Telegonus took to wife Odysseus' widow Penelope.

1454
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:08,480
That's disgusting.

1455
01:25:08,480 --> 01:25:10,020
That's Pornhub shit.

1456
01:25:10,020 --> 01:25:11,400
What the hell?

1457
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:14,320
That's Greek mythology, people.

1458
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:15,320
That's worse than...

1459
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:16,320
What, Vicality?

1460
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:18,720
No, you're right, it's not.

1461
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:19,720
But anyway...

1462
01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:24,000
How do you move on from that, Geordie?

1463
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:26,000
So then that's the end of Circe.

1464
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:27,000
No, there's one other...

1465
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:32,860
No, it's not the end of Circe, it's Circe, because the last scene that happens is a really

1466
01:25:32,860 --> 01:25:35,400
beautiful part.

1467
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:41,240
Circe and Telemachus agree they're going to travel the world forward slash the Mediterranean

1468
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:42,240
together.

1469
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:44,520
They're going to go to Egypt.

1470
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:46,440
They're going to go to...

1471
01:25:46,440 --> 01:25:47,440
They call it...

1472
01:25:47,440 --> 01:25:51,840
It's not Arabia, they call it like an antiquated name.

1473
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:52,840
Arabian or something.

1474
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:55,640
And they're going to go see the world.

1475
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:59,640
And Circe performs one last rite.

1476
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:01,540
She concocts this potion.

1477
01:26:01,540 --> 01:26:07,940
And then the narrative changes, this whole time it's been first person, past tense, from

1478
01:26:07,940 --> 01:26:10,760
her own perspective, looking back at her life.

1479
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:13,800
For her in the first opening words, all about her recollection.

1480
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:18,480
And now we go back to the moment of that recollection.

1481
01:26:18,480 --> 01:26:20,920
And it becomes future tense.

1482
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:23,240
It becomes her vision of the future.

1483
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:26,500
Perhaps a literal, prophetic vision.

1484
01:26:26,500 --> 01:26:28,880
She does have prophetic visions, we know that.

1485
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:30,100
That's canon.

1486
01:26:30,100 --> 01:26:35,920
So maybe this is what shall happen, or maybe this is her wish for what will happen.

1487
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:42,600
And maybe, as she casts her final spell, to turn herself mortal, we see a glimpse of what

1488
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:45,280
her life will be as a mortal woman.

1489
01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:50,960
As a mother, she and Telemachus, raising their children together and going on their journeys

1490
01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:55,360
in a hard, difficult life that will end someday.

1491
01:26:55,360 --> 01:27:02,520
And her old friend and lover Hermes will at last deliver her as the psychopomp down into

1492
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:08,360
the underworld, to meet again with all those who have gone before.

1493
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:11,320
It's a really good kicker of an ending.

1494
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:17,760
It's a great mirror to the Galakos near the beginning, where she was in love with a mortal

1495
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:19,800
and wanted to turn him into a god.

1496
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:26,040
So accepting that her son to become a mortal, a self-empowerment.

1497
01:27:26,040 --> 01:27:27,040
She didn't fit in.

1498
01:27:27,040 --> 01:27:32,560
She just hadn't enjoyed the role she was put in, in taking this massive on-surface sacrifice,

1499
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:34,200
but to live as a mortal woman.

1500
01:27:34,200 --> 01:27:41,260
And how that is what she wants, that is great for her, is amazing.

1501
01:27:41,260 --> 01:27:44,400
And the fact that we talked about in the story, the fact that so many characters, because

1502
01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:50,960
Bansminalia die over the course of the story, Daedalus, Medea, the fact that it's like,

1503
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:54,200
well, how do you be with these mortals again?

1504
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:57,240
You become mortal and you go and join them in the afterlife.

1505
01:27:57,240 --> 01:28:00,320
And it is really beautiful.

1506
01:28:00,320 --> 01:28:03,520
Just like, I've forgotten her name.

1507
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:05,760
Arwen, Arwen!

1508
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:06,760
It's a beautiful end.

1509
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:07,760
I love it.

1510
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:09,880
I'll tell you how I thought the book was going to end.

1511
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:10,880
You want to hear?

1512
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:11,880
Go for it.

1513
01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:14,600
I'm going to tell you about the book, Kersin Modern Day.

1514
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:17,560
Like, literally, interview of vampire style.

1515
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:19,600
She has, she's a mortal being.

1516
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:25,400
She has lived to see all of Ancient Greece fall away and be replaced by Rome and then

1517
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:29,480
the fall of Rome and then the rise of like, various powers.

1518
01:28:29,480 --> 01:28:34,020
And yeah, she's like, looking back on it from the current day.

1519
01:28:34,020 --> 01:28:37,840
And she's like, still here and she's still a strange witch wandering the world.

1520
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:39,840
But no, or still on her island maybe.

1521
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:42,520
But no, that's not how it shook up in the end.

1522
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:44,640
I think I would love that as an ongoing series.

1523
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:45,640
What am I saying?

1524
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:49,880
Obviously, I would love Greek myth characters in the modern world.

1525
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:52,680
Yeah, I figured you would though, couldn't I?

1526
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:56,560
In fact, maybe it could focus on like, plucky teenagers.

1527
01:28:56,560 --> 01:28:57,560
The final quote.

1528
01:28:57,560 --> 01:29:00,360
All my life I have been moving forward and now I am here.

1529
01:29:00,360 --> 01:29:02,240
I have a mortal voice.

1530
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:03,880
Let me have the rest.

1531
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:09,800
I lift the brimming bowl to my lips and drink.

1532
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:17,160
It's beautiful and it's poetic and it didn't resonate with me quite as much as Song of

1533
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:18,160
the Achilles.

1534
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:19,160
No.

1535
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:20,160
And you can say the whole thing for the whole book.

1536
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:26,200
You know, I said before, Song of Achilles is beautiful because it's that wind up punch.

1537
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:27,640
You know how it's going to end.

1538
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:28,640
It's just like Hadestown.

1539
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:30,960
You say, no, it's a tragedy.

1540
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:32,440
We know it's a tragedy.

1541
01:29:32,440 --> 01:29:34,080
We know how it's going to end.

1542
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:37,120
We're going to sing it anyway.

1543
01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:43,080
And that book made me cry and I never came close to crying in this book.

1544
01:29:43,080 --> 01:29:52,520
I felt deep sadness at the sections that relate to post Vietnam vet Odysseus, but it was also

1545
01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:59,240
mingled with a frustration which diluted that potent sadness.

1546
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:04,600
I wasn't able to actually like connect to the experiences of the characters, to Odysseus

1547
01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:09,440
and to Circe and to Telemachus because I was distracted by the fact that I really didn't

1548
01:30:09,440 --> 01:30:12,600
want to engage with this new idea of Odysseus.

1549
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:17,560
It made me unhappy, but more so it made me kind of reject the story because I wanted

1550
01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:19,640
to put my fingers in my ears.

1551
01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:24,440
In some respects, that's something that I also felt maybe not around Odysseus, but around

1552
01:30:24,440 --> 01:30:25,440
Circe's experience.

1553
01:30:25,440 --> 01:30:31,320
You know, there are so many points where I get so kind of upset for this character that

1554
01:30:31,320 --> 01:30:37,280
I almost wanted to disengage because there was maybe not the balance for me of sort of,

1555
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:40,560
I don't know, niceness and unpleasantness.

1556
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:44,760
It got a little bit too, and again, never stopped being beautiful and never stopped

1557
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:45,760
being poetic.

1558
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:49,520
I ran away as doing an excellent job, but for me it just swung a little bit the other

1559
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:50,640
way.

1560
01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:53,560
I will say I spoke to my sister, my little sister.

1561
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:55,680
She's also read both books.

1562
01:30:55,680 --> 01:30:58,320
She is like Circe's bear all the way.

1563
01:30:58,320 --> 01:30:59,920
Oh Duncan, how could you?

1564
01:30:59,920 --> 01:31:06,640
I completely see that, and I think it might just be a matter of which enemas you personally

1565
01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:08,920
kind of gel with or you hit notes with.

1566
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:13,160
Maybe this one's for the girlies and Song of Achilles resonates more with men because

1567
01:31:13,160 --> 01:31:16,000
it's a book about men.

1568
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:19,000
I kind of don't want to say it's that gender specific, but I'm not going to lie, it is

1569
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:23,320
my experience as a bloke, so maybe.

1570
01:31:23,320 --> 01:31:27,480
Still well worth it, and I'm still very happy I've read Circe.

1571
01:31:27,480 --> 01:31:31,080
Well, and you know what, I definitely recommend it as well, I want to make that totally clear.

1572
01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:34,680
We 110% recommend Song of Achilles to everyone.

1573
01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:41,160
I recommend this book as well, and I recommend it for everyone who is not sensitive about

1574
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:44,840
sexual violence in books, because it kind of hinges on that a lot, so you should go

1575
01:31:44,840 --> 01:31:49,360
into it with some caution if you're worried about that.

1576
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:54,920
Duncan, there is no need for you to tell me what book we're doing next time because we

1577
01:31:54,920 --> 01:31:57,400
both have already read it.

1578
01:31:57,400 --> 01:32:02,040
That we have everyone, due to the nature of us having our holidays, I did tell Geordie

1579
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:06,600
ahead of time so that we could get ahead of schedule, we could be prepared.

1580
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:07,960
And so the book that we have-

1581
01:32:07,960 --> 01:32:12,840
I read both of the books before Duncan had finished his reread of Circe.

1582
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:17,680
That is quite true, and this one's quite a big one, people, so do buckle down if you

1583
01:32:17,680 --> 01:32:22,600
want to read this in time for our next episode because we are reading Brian McAllan's Promise

1584
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:24,680
of Blood.

1585
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:27,200
First book in the Powder Maids trilogy.

1586
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:31,440
Geordie, this has sat on my shelf for quite some time.

1587
01:32:31,440 --> 01:32:35,920
I am so excited to hear your thoughts on it.

1588
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:38,520
Mine is still very much in the forming stages.

1589
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:44,800
This is a cut into, I'm going to say more maybe, epic fantasy.

1590
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:52,880
This is a story of magic, of kingships, and of muskets, and revolution, and republics.

1591
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:58,520
But it's also kind of like, I don't know, a Tom Clancy novel?

1592
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:00,760
Maybe a bit of an expanse novel?

1593
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:07,000
Like it really hits a different tenor from a lot of the other fantasy out there.

1594
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:13,800
Like it does have a lot of really standard fantasy stuff, wizards and gods, but it also

1595
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:20,760
has like a completely different air to it because of the inclusion of the novel part,

1596
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:27,200
gunpowder and gunpowder magic, which I am very eager to share my various thoughts on.

1597
01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:28,520
Well hold off for now Geordie.

1598
01:33:28,520 --> 01:33:32,040
We'll talk about that next time on the It's Just Fantasy podcast.

1599
01:33:32,040 --> 01:33:38,760
If you have read Circe, Circe, Song of Achilles, Gosh, Promise of Blood, any of the other books

1600
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:41,840
we have discussed or yet to discuss on this podcast, the best place.

1601
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:46,280
Or Galatea, her other much shorter book of Greek mythology.

1602
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:51,480
Yes, and very excited for her up and coming Persephone, it was announced in 2021 that

1603
01:33:51,480 --> 01:33:56,280
that will be the next book she's working on as someone who has read the entirety of

1604
01:33:56,280 --> 01:33:57,840
Lore Olympus.

1605
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:00,160
I am so excited.

1606
01:34:00,160 --> 01:34:01,320
Now that is interesting.

1607
01:34:01,320 --> 01:34:02,320
I'm looking forward to that.

1608
01:34:02,320 --> 01:34:04,480
I did not know that it existed.

1609
01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:06,760
I guess we might not be getting Medea at all.

1610
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:08,680
She might stop at three, but I hope not.

1611
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:10,000
I hope she does everyone.

1612
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:14,000
I can't wait for Belophanus or whatever his name is.

1613
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:17,320
In a minute it's definitely the person to do it.

1614
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:20,960
Can't wait to read another one of her works.

1615
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:23,920
Until then, I've been your host, Duncan Nicoll.

1616
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:25,600
And I've been your host, Geordie Bailey.

1617
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:26,600
Bye.

1618
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:44,200
So long.