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Hello and welcome to Is This Just Fantasy? The podcast where every week two nerds get

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together and discuss a fantasy novel. I'm your host, Geordie Bailey.

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And I read this book in the dark room scrutinizing the art to exploit the weaknesses of the species

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that created it, Duncan Nicoll.

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That might be Duncan's strangest introduction yet but I promise it does make sense because

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this week we read Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn. The second, well, kind of the third,

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but follow up to our Dark Empire episode from last year. Duncan has once again made me read

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a Star Wars novel and he will never be forgiven.

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Happy May the 4th!

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In June!

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In June!

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Yes, Geordie, I got you to read this. I'm a massive Star Wars fan. I have been my entire

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life. I love both old canon legends, I love the new stuff coming out and this May I just

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got the bug again. I just really want to dive back into the Star Wars universe and share

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it with my friend. And what better way to do that than with this book, Heir to the Empire

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by Timothy Zahn, the book that relaunched the Star Wars expanded universe way, way back

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in 93, I think it was.

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Yes.

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A real seminal piece.

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Duncan and I both listen to a podcast every so often called the Old Canon Star Wars Book

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Club. I believe that's true that you also listen to that, Duncan.

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I am a huge fan of it.

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I am an okay fan of it. Much like the previous book club which Jesse Cox ran, I like Jesse

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Cox, he's a funny YouTuber. Much like the previous one, I was about to say the old podcast

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it is, but this is the old one. I think their discussions, it's really hard to understand

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what's going on unless you've seen the thing they have because they don't go into a lot

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of detail. I don't mean to slag off another book podcast, they're much more successful

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than we are.

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Yeah, way more successful than us. But I know how you feel and it's something that I'm always

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very conscious of, but for someone who when they're doing the first 20 issues of the original

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Marvel Star Wars comic book run and they're like, yes, I've read these. I know exactly

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what you're on about. Yes, yes, yes. Darth Vader did have a chat with Princess Leia at

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a banking planet to discuss the deposit of the Alderaanian crown jewels. Of course he

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did.

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And I brought it up because I wanted to point out a distinction you made, which is that

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you said this sort of reignited Star Wars because there was additional what we now call

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legends material already being made before this. You had comic books set out by Marvel,

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you had tie-in novels like Galaxy's Edge. Is it called Galaxy's Edge or is that the

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theme park?

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Well, that's yeah, well, that's a modern example. Galaxy's Edge theme park. There was a tie-in

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novel called Dark Spark. I think what you're thinking of though is Minters of the Mind's

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Eye.

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That is not what I'm referring to.

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And the Han Solo novels. No?

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I'm talking about the Han Solo one, like Galaxy's End or something. Is that what it's called?

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Han Solo at... Oh, was it called? Something's End.

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Star's End, right?

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Star's End.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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I'm talking about it. But yes, this is sort of supposed to be the new kick-off. A lot of

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a time when big Star Wars nerds, and they were talking about this a lot, especially

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when The Force Awakens was due to come out or had just come out, were saying, man, now

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we're never going to get adaptations of these works. This is my favourite part of Star Wars,

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the stuff that wasn't made by George Lucas.

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Not an uncommon stance to take, surprisingly. But you're absolutely right. This was very

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popular and what it did and why it kicked off is mainly for one fact, that this was

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the first bit of Star Wars media after the original trilogy that was really allowed to

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push the characters and the universe forward. Everything else was kind of a prequel, midquel,

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bit of a wheel spinner. No one was really allowed to do the next step, even the Marvel

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comics. After the end of Return of the Jedi, they all sit on Endor. The comic artist was

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just not allowed to relocate the characters because you didn't know if George was going

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to come in and pick up exactly where he left off. This is the first time where George kind

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of went, I don't care, go for it.

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The thing is, that's personal because that's exactly what you were talking about last time

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we recorded when we were talking about the gunslinger. You were talking about how right

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now all the stuff that Disney makes is in this same interwar period. The Mandalorian

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stuff is in the space between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens. The comic books

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are set in between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. The novels are in the

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same similar period and now the newest novels are all pre-Republic. They are in these isolated

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zones of safety where there's room to flex but nothing is going forward. Nothing is taking

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place after the rise of Skywalker.

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To be honest, I think that is as much a problem now as it probably felt back then. You sit

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around going, well, why should I invest in this media if it's, I'm going to say matter,

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in terms of the quality of the stories. That's not a knock against the quality of any of

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these works. But I think if you enjoy a fantasy multiverse, yes, it's really fun to read those

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tiny little niche stories and some authors craft beautiful tales. There's a story, Geordi,

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which is basically MASH drawing the Clone Wars. It follows Jedi medics and their experience

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fighting the Clone Wars. That's a really cool little slice of what Star Wars can be.

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But people like to see Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, Chewbacca, Lando Calrissian

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actually taking the next steps in developing his characters. And that's what this book,

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I think, kind of starts to give us.

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Yeah, uh, the Star Wars pre-Disney purchase new canon stuff, it had a reputation and this

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was what I gathered when The Force Awakens was coming out. So this was many years ago

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now. When it was coming out, the impression I had was that it was extremely bloated and

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it was very, um, it was full of minutia. It was full of these like weird events which

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you sort of just had to roll with. It's sort of like my impression of like what it's like

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to read a lot of Marvel, where other writers come in, they make changes to the world, and

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then you just have to put up with it. There's no rolling back the clock. I mean, they do

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in Marvel constantly, but those events still happened.

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That's definitely so. And what we're talking about today, Heir to the Empire kicked off

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in the Star Wars sort of canon, this era known as the New Republic. And in terms of literary

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works, it wasn't like a one consistent narrative. This was the era where they would, um, Lucas

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Arts, sorry, Lucas, Lucasfilm, they were just sort of bringing in, um, established science

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fiction authors or fantasy authors in a few cases and sort of just saying, here, give

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us a trilogy, give us a one off, and we'll just keep kind of building it forward. Without

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like a real plan in mind, I suppose you could consider this whole era as the story of fighting

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the Imperial remnant. You know, Palpatine's down, but there are still pockets of resistance,

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Imperial resistance out there in the galaxy.

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In my copy of the book, Duncan, at the back, they have a whole chronology of all of the

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like legends material that takes place, you know, pre original trilogy in between the

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original trilogy and after. And the after period has like distinct eras where it's like,

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this is five years after the destruction of the second Death Star. This is 20 years after.

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This is 40 years after.

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Yes, you're right. And so what they did, so this era of the New Republic, that was that

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bitty bit, then around the time the prequels were coming out, they decided, right, we're

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actually going to tell one big story now. And that was called the New Jedi Order series.

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And so it's still lots of different authors, but then they started doing it where it's

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like, no, no, no, we have a plan. There's going to be an overarching plot. And we're

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going to really try to actually push new characters, original characters that came out of the books

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and not related to the films, bring them all to the forefront. You know, this isn't just

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a Luke, Han and Leia show anymore. But that's all to come. And I love it. And I've read

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a lot of it. I've nowhere near read all of it. It's huge. We're talking over 100 books.

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It's one of those things, Jordi, where if I said only one in 20 Star Wars books was

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worth your time, you're still reading like 15 novels. It's crazy.

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And so this one has the reputation or this trilogy has the reputation of being the very

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best. Am I wrong about that? Is there better stuff to come after this?

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No, there is. There is some really good stuff to come. That's not what I asked.

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Damn you. It certainly is a contender for the best. Like this trilogy is up there. It's

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either the best Jordi or it's the top three or the top five. Like it's three books. How

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could it be? Oh, that's because Darth Bane only has one

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decent book in that trilogy. Okay.

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But you're right. This is the best. I would actually say if you read this book, if you're

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thinking about getting to expanded Star Wars, read this book. If you don't like it, maybe

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this isn't for you. Well, we've got to find out if it is for me, Duncan, because you have

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said this is the best and therefore that implies that you like it. I have not yet given an

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opinion on what I thought of this book. Then let's start reviewing it Jordi. Everyone

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knows I love it. What do you think? Come on, summarize it.

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I think Duncan, that this wasn't very good book.

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I'm so happy. Yeah. You had to win it out of me. I had to

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read this in front of my colleagues, Duncan. In the staff room where I work, people saw

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me reading a Star Wars novel. There was no hiding it. But yes, I did enjoy it. I really

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did. It's um, it feels like a forward faithful adaptation. It's enjoyable and it feels nice

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to immerse yourself in Star Wars in a format you're not really used to. The fact that it

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makes this translation from screen to book means that the actions people undertake in

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it, like when they're piloting a star, you know, a starship, you can't just see them

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pressing buttons. It has to use actual tech jargon and it's enjoyable. It feels like a

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super deep dive into a Star Wars space. It makes me want to play like a Star Wars role

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playing game and inhabit the space again. I'm so happy you liked it. Coming back and

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revisiting this book for quite possibly the third time, I was once really impressed by

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not only how loyal it was in recreating the feel of the original film, but also how I

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actually think Timothy Zahn has been quite brave in the new elements and new characters. He

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was prepared to give a substantial amount of page time to show was he sure was and it's

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not really at least yet. I think again, this is just from my from inhabiting nerd spaces.

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My understanding is that Timothy Zahn becomes very precious about the character of Thrawn

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and he really falls in love with writing the character so much so that he's basically a

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hero in a number of the books that he writes about him and including Outbound Flight, the

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other third book I've read in the Star Wars universe where Thrawn is basically the hero

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of the story. That is quite possibly the case. I think Zahn got a little burnt. Another character

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that appears in this book and we'll discuss later, Mara Jade, one of his creations. Another

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author takes that character later on and does things I believe Zahn was very vocally against

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and I think ever since then he's like, okay, I'm keeping this one. This one's my baby.

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You won't touch him.

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Until Star Wars Rebels comes out.

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Oh, exactly. Until he gets brought over into the new canon. That was the level of his popularity.

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So Geordi, you like the book. I love the book. Let's start out. This book opens and we get

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introduced immediately to the character of Thrawn.

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Yes, very surprising.

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What did you think of him?

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So I've already met Thrawn of course because I've read Outbound Flight. This is his first

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proper introduction and he's much... Outbound Flight I enjoyed well enough. It's a book

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that overstayed its welcome but it was very obvious why people enjoy the character of

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Thrawn. In this book it's so much more. He's so much more appropriate and so much more

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interesting and enjoyable to read about. It's a lot like reading a Sherlock Holmes novel.

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You inhabit the character of Dr. Watson or in this case Captain... Was it Pellaeon?

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I pronounce it Palaeon but that does not mean it's right.

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Yeah, Palaeon seems about right. So Captain Palaeon is a witness to Thrawn's genius and

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he gets to sort of marvel at what he's doing. And what's really great about it is that Captain

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Palaeon is always like a little bit in the dark and is always a little bit frustrated

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and confused and it strikes a very good tenor because you have this captain who appears

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to be completely... A completely decent captain in terms of like his ability to run a ship.

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And so when Thrawn is making these high level chess plays and he's a little bit baffled

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by it, that's a good lens for us as readers to be held at a distance from Thrawn's genius

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and to know intellectually that he has a plan. And Zahn also plays with things like dramatic

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irony where Thrawn is able to almost see through the plot in order to ascertain what other

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people are doing but also crucially get things wrong and make wrong assumptions which makes

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our heroes look yet more heroic. Basically he acts as this great antagonist because you

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enjoy the chapters where he's present, you enjoy trying to keep up with him and see what

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his plans are and figure out what's going on at Sluice's Vane, what does he need at

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this secret mountain, what's his overall plan. But you also like seeing the points where

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he's being decisive and he's getting in the way of the heroes and you see where they are

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falling into his traps and it raises the tension.

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I'm so glad you brought that Sherlock Holmes element up so quickly, Geordie. I've always

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said that what really makes this character work is that you come off the Star Wars trilogy

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and you have the Dark Knight Vader and you have the maniacal cackling evil emperor. So

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to get this Moriarty figure, this genius, this chess player, he's very different. He's

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not physically intimidating. He doesn't have superpowers like the previous villains.

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Something which repeatedly happened in both Outbound Flight and the Revenge of the Sith

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book we read was that Palpatine is obviously the master manipulator, but he also has magical

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powers helping him. The whole point of him is that he has the entire universe in the

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palm of his hand and everything goes according to his plan and it's so much more enjoyable

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and so much more impressive to read about Thrawn doing similar levels of manipulation

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purely by intellect. He doesn't have any magic on his side. He's making literal actual mistakes

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and then he corrects for those mistakes. That's so much more interesting and engaging and

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intimidating than any of the stuff Palpatine was doing.

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We have said previously how a villain can be so much more engaging or intelligent is

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so much better written when the characters make mistakes and then you see them have to

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come up with other plans. They're not omnipotent and I do think, particularly in this first

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book, Thrawn, maybe because we're a little bit further back, just sits on the right side

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of that. He doesn't seem too clever, too omnipotent at the moment.

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At the moment, maybe. I think there are times where it pushes credulity a little bit, but

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that's part of what you enjoy about stories about Sherlock Holmes-like figures. They are

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so intelligent. You watch Sherlock or House and they make these huge leaps of logic to

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get to the right location and that's part of the genius. That's part of the appeal.

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I was just going to say I don't want to hone in on this one character too much because

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then we would be making the same mistake as Thrawn.

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I just want to say one last thing.

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Good well, keep going.

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I just want to say one last thing that I really like about this character. I think it's set

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up in this book and we may be over the course of, not to get spoilers for the whole trilogy,

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you see this sort of progress. At the beginning, it's really like he tries to be like, oh,

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I'm not a slave to my ego. I'm not Darth Vader. I'm not going to throw a hissy-pia. I'm not

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going to start killing, well, he does actually.

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He does. He does do exactly that.

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That's not the best example, but I like the fact that he's like, oh, we've lost today.

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I'm just going to hands up guys. Let's retreat.

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Yeah, I like that too. Absolutely.

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Yeah, because the only other figure that fills in that role and I've seen this in Star Wars

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comic books is other righteous have tried to turn Grand Morph Tarkin into that figure.

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He's the big strategist and manipulator and intimidating threat and he's not even remotely.

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He's an idiot. He's completely overconfident. He puts all his eggs in one basket and then

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gets exploded for it.

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Which is his entire character. Something that they do in the expanded universe on Tarkin,

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which is so baffling. Have you ever heard of the thing called like the Tarkin Doctrine

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in Star Wars?

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No, I haven't.

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You sure do. So the thing called the Tarkin Doctrine, which is meant to be how Tarkin

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came up with this idea to help have power in the Empire. And it's all about having a

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vast mobile fleet. And to be fair, there's an element of like fear is what keeps people

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in control. And that's why he thought, oh, yes, the Death Star, it will, the fear of

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it, the threat of using this weapon will help us rule the galaxy. But that completely goes

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against the idea that he thought, no, I want to have a vast mobile fleet of like very uniform

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ships. It's like that's it doesn't work. That's not his character. He has a folly. And that's

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why everyone who goes for super weapons, which Thrawn does not use, a fail. I also love the

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fact that he doesn't go. There's not a second Death Star in this. But you're right. Let's

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stop focusing on Thrawn. Let's go back to the rest of the plot. How about our heroes,

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Geordi?

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Yes.

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You've met them before?

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We've met them before. So this book primarily follows Luke, Han and Leia, each of them taking

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on different roles within confronting the threat of Thrawn. Interestingly, they don't

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know there is a threat from Thrawn, that he's lurking the shadows so much that they are

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circling the drain of the rising evil.

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I mean, what a beautiful way to put it. And you're right. And what I really like about

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in the opening of this story, we see a little bit of the Republic that they're trying to

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do. And I love this element of how they're actually having just very mundane problems

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of running a democracy.

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I absolutely really like that. It's always been this sort of blasé, thrown away thing

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in Star Wars, where there are just two things you need to know about non-imperial power.

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They say, oh, the Republic was a mess. And that's that. They say the Republic is a mess.

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And then they say the new Republic is picking up the pieces of the Empire. And you see that

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in Mandalorian, that's a throwaway thing, but we can't help out these outer rim planets

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because there's too much chaos going on. But you don't get a lens in on that actual politicking.

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And I don't like anything about the way people talk about politics in the old Republic because

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of a whole bunch of reasons. And I don't want to get into it, but it's all to do with how

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people talk about a prequel and I can't bloody stand talking about a prequel anymore.

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So let's talk about how the Republic, the new Republic is portrayed in this book, Geordi.

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We get an insight, we get a very high level insight, to be fair, where Leia is right up

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there alongside Mon Mothma, sort of the heroes of the rebellion. But there's also these other

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people that have come in.

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Yep.

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Now I'm going to butcher this name, but there is a character here, a Bothan, called Fey’lyn?

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I assume it's pronounced Fey’lyn, yeah.

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Fey'lya, who sort of represents this simultaneously probably very reasonable voice and at the

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same time just so frustrating to our heroes. Because we know our heroes are right.

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Of course.

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They're the heroes.

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Yeah.

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But, but, and he's being antagonistic towards them and you're just like, well, it's annoying,

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but no, it's not annoying, it's great. He's perfectly pitched as annoying or irritating

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because you're just looking at, he's just not being unfair enough. You can't quite call

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him out. You can't quite go, damn, this man, he's working against the democracy. He's just

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the opposing voice.

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He's sort of the Thomas Jefferson of the new Republic. Like you weren't here for the revolutionary

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war man. You were off in the background somewhere and now that we're in power, you want to take

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the reins?

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But is that not part of a democracy? Why do you let the leaders of the paramilitary group

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that took power continue to have power?

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I totally agree. I mean, Fey'lya doesn't say that explicitly, but if he did, I would agree

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with him. Maybe General Ackbar shouldn't be the supreme ruler of the army.

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Now I wouldn't say this, like this is some really interesting ideas. I would say it is

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given a fair bit of background, particularly in terms of page count. Like I don't think

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Zahn, he's like, shows you it and then goes, okay, now let's get our characters out in

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the world.

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Exactly. It reflects on all the decisions our characters make. They're doing things

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to support the Republic or they're doing things because they're impinged by the new Republic

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and its rules or its security. There's a big part of this book, like Lando is brought in

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because they need to start going behind their own Republic's back. The thing they are creating,

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they're like, we can't do the things we need to do in normal politics. We need to go back

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to doing our rebel shit. So we need to start talking to criminals again.

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It's something that's been kind of brought up a bit. Think of the most recent Ahsoka series

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on Disney Plus. This idea of if you have a group of people who were so steadfast in their

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beliefs they rebelled against the last government, surely they'll just do it again. Like when

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did, how do you transition? How do you go, no, I disagree. But not like last time when

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I disagreed. This time I'll disagree and just sit back.

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Yeah. Revolution sent end up being pretty messy when they tried to make a new government

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and you tend to get people like, actually, the more I think about this, it's amazing

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that Admiral Ackbar isn't like an actual like fascist dictator because he's, he's set up

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perfectly to fit into that role if he just went a little further. Speaking of people

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giving up power though, I'm going to hone in on Han Solo. I'm going to say something

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first and foremost. Timothy Zahn made a very good choice when he made Han Solo immediately

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resign his commission as general. Han Solo should never have been a general.

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Are you saying George Lucas got it wrong? Yes, he got it wrong. Why the hell was, why

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was Han Solo a general? I genuinely have forgotten that they ever made him, gave him that role.

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That's ridiculous. Did they? I'm thinking like, when did they even

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do that? Like Hoth, is he a general on Hoth? No, he's like, he doesn't even work for the

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rebellion on Hoth. It's like, it's Endor. Like after he gets unfrozen, he gets made

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a general. That's insane. Is he not a general? I'm

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going to have to rewatch the movies. If you'd asked me, I would have said they just called

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him commander because he puts together a strike force. Like he does nothing general like,

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but you're right. I'm glad he resigns. If anything, Lando has more of the character

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to actually like organize and run things. That's definitely true. Like he's like an

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administrator. Han Solo should always be a captain. I mean, maybe he's going to progress

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in actually. Well, so Han Solo as depicted by Timothy Zahn, in some ways you're like,

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yes, you have captured the voice of this character and you're inhabiting the inside of his head

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quite well. I really like wife guy Han Solo. I really like the, I am super in love with

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Leia. I'm extremely anxious about losing her and her unborn children. And that's going

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to, it's going to change all of my actions throughout this book. I like that. I do think

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that Han Solo is fitting in a little bit too well to politicking. It feels more like he's

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been written as like a spy van, like a smuggler. And I think there is an important distinction

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in between those two sort of tropey characters. So he has a little bit more of an S bit, well,

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just too much insight. Actually, he just has too much like, ah, I'll do this because this

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will inform Phalanx actions or what's going on. I think he just needs to have one or two

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moments I think in this story where he does something that just maybe it's the right thing

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to do. And you can see it from Han Solo's approach, say it was, I dunno, involved protecting

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Leia, but then afterwards Leia just turned around and be like, you know, the political

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disaster you've just created for me. Well, that kind of does happen, but Han Solo was

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shown to be in the right and that's after, what's it called? This is literally impossible

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to turn it, like Beshpin, when they're attacked. And then afterwards they get back on the Millennium

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Falcon and Han just leaves. He just flies away. He doesn't wait for him to go back and

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Leia wants to go back and do diplomacy and he just goes back to Coruscant and he doesn't

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tell anyone he's doing this until they've already on their way.

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True, but I think that's the point because he's shown to be in the right, then it almost

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makes him look like, no, no, no, he's just really good at this. He knew that was the

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right decision to just get out of Dodge. Yes, you're right. And I'm sorry for no, no,

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but in you and contradicting you there. Well, I think the thing I'm asking for there is

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that Leia says, yeah, because Leia says this will cause me trouble, but we actually never

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see that problem. Exactly. Like, that's not in the book. Exactly. Like, it doesn't lead

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to a problem. It probably should, but anyway, the point is that characters in this book

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are like really smart. All of them are really smart. It's not just Thrawn. Everyone has

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had like two points put into their IQ stat. That just appears to be how Timothy Zahn likes

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to create conflict in these stories. I, and I think it works for one thing. I like the

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fact that we have these competent characters. It's enjoyable to see characters be competent,

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you know, especially like the naval battle at the end. They come up with these tactics

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to confront Thrawn's strategies. And I think that there is a coherent theme throughout

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the book of the plucky rebels being good at tactics, but losing out in terms of strategy.

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And there is a difference between those things, but they are just like, just smarter than

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I remembered them being in the movies. And I think that might be one of the few things

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that someone could get turned off on. I think someone could pick up on this point. Well,

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this doesn't feel quite like Han Solo, but then I do then think that's why Zahn did

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a very clever decision of setting this five years later. Cause I think that then gives

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you that kind of in universe flex just to let you kind of go, Oh, it's a stretch, but

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it's a little stretch. And it could have happened in that time gap. Yeah. They all just got

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a bit wiser. They fought with the war for an extra five years, especially say Luke,

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for example, Luke in return of a Jedi is a tricky character because a lot of the stuff

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he does, um, it's kind of set up as a twist. When he shows up at the beginning, you're

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not supposed to know whether or not he's fallen to the dark side or not. The way in which

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he's dressed, he's all in black. He's quite spooky. He's force choking people. That's

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all stuff which is to lead you to believe that, Oh, something's different about Luke.

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He's not behaving the way he was last time. And he's also a much wiser character. He's,

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he is a true Jedi Knight at that point. And what a Jedi Knight is in this point in the

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history of star Wars, it's kind of nebulous. Like in this book, they never used the word

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Sith. Like that's not a part of common star Wars parlance. Even though if you go back,

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that was supposed to be in the original star Wars title crawl, the word Sith. They're referred

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to as dark Jedi in this book. That's absolutely right. In fact, I can throw in a little trivia

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in here. Who are what species is Thrawn's elite death squad soldiers made up of? Oh,

367
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fuck. I don't remember if it's on my head. I'm sorry. They're Nugoshi. Now you're messing

368
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with my pronunciation. Noghri? I'm sure you're right Duncan. I'm sure you're right. Noghri,

369
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that sounds fine by me. Well, when Zahn came to write this, he actually originally wanted

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to call that species the Sith. He thought Darth Vader was the Lord of the Sith. So the

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Sith had to be a people somewhere. I see. And that was his original. That's how we genuinely

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interpreted it. And George Lucas had to step in and be like, no, that's, that's not what

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I meant. And Zahn was like, well, you did not make that clear at any point. There's

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something similar actually in regards to the Clone Wars, but we'll get back to that later.

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Sure. You can see it's not fully formed. I think at this point, the Jedi are left. Well,

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I think there's two ways you can read it. One is the idea of the Jedi, you know, the

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very concept of Jedi is nebulous. But also it's the idea that Luke is trying to kind

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of rediscover, you know, the Empire wiped out what they are. He is trying to learn for

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himself and rediscover what the Jedi were and what he should be. I wish Rey had been

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permitted to do this if I would have been so much more interesting. But yes, absolutely

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there are these points in the story where he has to go, Ooh, should a Jedi do this?

382
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I'm going to do it anyway, but I feel like I'm kind of pushing a line here, but like

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whatever I got to do it. Really nicely done. And I think Luke maybe doesn't get the most

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in this first book in the trilogy, in my opinion. I think he's definitely, he's just kind of

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building up to his more defining moral, ethical judgments later on. But he swings his lightsaber

386
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around as he has a chat with Ben and he goes off on his own little adventure. Yeah, he

387
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does an adventure which keeps loop de looping in with Han and Leia because the galaxy is

388
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four meters wide in this book. Oh, it's when they both simultaneously show up to Lando's.

389
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They both show up by coincidence to different locations like three times. Well, I don't

390
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,120
know why I want to take this. On the one hand, I want to jump on a meant talk about Lando

391
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in this book. This is the start of a great thing that Lando does throughout the whole

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of the New Republic era Star Wars novels. And that in every, well, I'm saying it again,

393
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go and listen to our lore dump episode on Dark Empire. Lando has a new business in like

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every CA. It's like Brad Pitt in Ocean's Eleven. It's like everything you cut back

395
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to him, he's just doing something different. And this game, it's an extremely confusing

396
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mining operation. As I understand it, it's a mining operation that can only operate on

397
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like the dark side of a planet. So it's a mobile mining platform that has to like keep

398
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moving to stay in the shade because it's too close to the sun. And I like that. That's

399
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a cool idea. But it's Imperial Walkers. Like it's a mining facility sat on the back of

400
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like numerous Imperial Walkers, which is cool. I love walking cities. How slowly is this

401
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planet rotating? Those things are like four miles per hour. I mean, I thought that. I

402
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can only imagine that he's, you know, his engineers have got in there. They're speeding

403
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:50,040
up like a boom, boom, boom, boom. They're at a pleasant jog. Are they all in step? Does

404
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:55,840
it up rise and fall? These are the major questions. It's one of the things where like I love some

405
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,520
of the Star Wars aesthetic in this book. Or most of the books of Star Wars aesthetic.

406
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,960
This is the one moment that I just went, it could have just been on tracks or like it

407
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,480
didn't need to be the Walkers. Yeah, the last place we saw him was in Cloud City, a flying

408
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:15,240
city. Why didn't he make it get another flying city? I'm sure there's some deep lore science

409
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:20,920
mumbo jumbo out there that could answer that question. But the character of Lando, Lando

410
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,240
is off kind of an odd place in the society. Because he's not a member of the original

411
00:34:26,240 --> 00:34:31,520
team. No, he comes in late. He starts. He's a bit of a villain. Then he's on their side.

412
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,560
Yeah, exactly. He gets his big hurrah because he gets to destroy the second Death Star.

413
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:43,600
And that's great. But you're right. He's only a hero in the final movie. Up till then, he's

414
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:49,920
an antagonist or at least until like the last 10 minutes of the second one. And as a result,

415
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:55,000
I think he's a character that I think you could serve well as a Star Wars writer.

416
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:01,120
He must be someone it's a treat to use because he has a lot of the same roguish charisma

417
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:06,560
as Han and he Han's obviously like one of the most popular characters. But you also

418
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:13,360
you don't have to tie him down to having a concrete arc. Lando's arc is he joins the

419
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:20,800
good guys. But Han Solo did that in episode in the first movie. So from there, he gets

420
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:27,280
to have other arcs like forwarding and love and becoming a general. And well, that's

421
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:33,320
it. Those are the two things. But that means that Lando is still out there learning, changing,

422
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:38,760
growing. So you can have your fun at having him be a playboy who's started to get involved

423
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:44,520
in being a part of the New Republic. And to have that sort of seat there where you know,

424
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:51,240
his story arc like with Han. Han and Leia together. That's good. Luke, he's a Jedi.

425
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:54,960
I'm sure he won't have a romance anytime. That makes sense. Everyone knows that Jedi

426
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,880
are all celibate. That was definitely a rule that had been established right from the get

427
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:05,000
go and was invented during episode two in order to create a forbidden romance between

428
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:13,560
Anakin Skywalker and his old babysitter. I've never had Padme described that way before.

429
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:21,160
Yes, that is her role in episode one. When you watch episode one, what? Very strange.

430
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:27,960
Very strange, George. George. Anakin didn't have to be that young, but the actor did a

431
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:34,720
decent job anyway. Can you imagine Luke like finding that that line in the ancient text

432
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:41,600
years later and just going oops, oops, Ben, you didn't tell me. Actually, I'm going to

433
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,240
then just like I'm going to leap in on one thing before we go. I actually I have seen

434
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:51,600
the behind the scenes footage from The Empire Strikes Back. Not The Empire Strikes Back,

435
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,480
The Phantom Menace. And I'm going to say this. I saw the auditions for numerous child actors

436
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:02,400
and Jake Lloyd was definitely the best actor out of all those kids. Good. Yes. I liked

437
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,880
him in that film. I just disagree with the creative decision to have Anakin appear so

438
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:11,240
young. I don't like the fact that I also don't like the fact that he's in that room and I'm

439
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:15,560
not going to revise history by saying that I like him in the role because I don't, but

440
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,440
it's not his fault. He was a child and everything that happened afterwards is very sad. But

441
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,160
you're right. Anakin should have been like 15 years old, not 10 years old. That's a much

442
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,560
better age to do it because then you can have him be plucky, make him be younger than Luke,

443
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:34,160
make him be angsty, make him be rebellious so that he can butt heads with Obi-Wan in

444
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:41,000
a much more interesting way. Like when he's brashest in Attack of the Clones, it's frustrating

445
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,440
because you want him to be a Jedi Knight and you don't understand why he would be trusted

446
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,960
with any mission at all because he should have grown out of it. So if you establish

447
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,360
him as plucky and rebellious and angsty in the first one, and then you can have him grow

448
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:59,440
up a little bit in the next one so that there are still the seeds of the prior angstiness

449
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:06,160
that can emerge later in moments of like high stress, for example. Anyway, it's too late

450
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,320
to fix the Star Wars prequels and we should all stop trying to think about it.

451
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,360
Oh, but that just worked so well and they would have filled into what Uncle Owen says,

452
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:19,080
you know, because it could then actually have him be like, I'm going, I have wanderlust.

453
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,240
And everyone else be like, no, say, you know, actually what they set up in the original

454
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:28,320
show. Anyway, you're right. So that is the Empire. So that's our old characters, the

455
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:29,320
established cast.

456
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,520
No, hang on, hang on. We can't just ignore Leia, even though the book does for the most

457
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:34,520
part.

458
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:40,320
Okay, I don't want to be mean. So Leia gets a fair share of the... So Leia is meant to

459
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:46,320
be the ambassador. She is the political mind of the team and of the New Republic. She's

460
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:55,280
meant to show a level of levelheadedness and just general political suave to help get factions

461
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,400
onside. That is what she does best.

462
00:38:58,400 --> 00:38:59,400
She's not...

463
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:00,400
Is that portrayed in this book?

464
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,440
She's not really given a chance to do that in this book. Part of what's complicated about

465
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,520
it is that sort of the whole point is that her progress as a character is being forestalled

466
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:15,200
by a bunch of stuff. So she's not allowed to train as a Jedi because she needs to do

467
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,440
politics. And to be honest, that makes sense from Timothy Zahn's perspective. You don't

468
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,400
want to reinvent Leia completely and have her, now she's a Jedi, now she's behaving

469
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,520
like Luke. You want her to keep the traits that people liked in her from the previous

470
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:36,480
things. So you want to have her be a gunslinger. You want to have her be the politically minded

471
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,120
one because she is a princess and an ambassador. So you want to keep that stuff. But you've

472
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:47,320
also decided that of course the Empire wants those Jedi twins that she's going to have.

473
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,840
So now she's a bit of a...

474
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,900
I'm not going to call her complete damsel. She is being escorted around and she's being

475
00:39:53,900 --> 00:39:59,040
kept safe by all the other male characters. She is still independent and feisty and she

476
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:04,400
does a judo throw at one point. But yes, she doesn't really get to strut her stuff. She's

477
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:10,000
put off to the side and that's disappointing because I would like more Leia in this book.

478
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,640
I am going to say obviously I have the benefit of having the benefit. Maybe not. Having read

479
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:21,440
the whole trilogy, these are complaints that do get well and truly addressed I feel later

480
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,240
on. It's just in this first novel with so much going on and new characters being brought

481
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:28,920
in, Leia is just left to be in the background.

482
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:34,400
I'm going to say something really surprising I noticed and I kept waiting for this to be

483
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:41,120
brought up. So for one thing, Luke makes Leia a lightsaber in this. This is done without

484
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:47,960
any ceremony. So I guess at this point they hadn't decided that lightsabers were sort

485
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,940
of spiritually important thing for a Jedi to make. It's just like, yeah, I can knock

486
00:40:52,940 --> 00:40:57,980
one of those out. It genuinely is said so casually. But I don't believe we're ever

487
00:40:57,980 --> 00:41:04,280
told what colour it is. And I was really surprised by that. Like you'd think that would be your

488
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:11,640
kid reading this book in 1993. You love to play Star Wars with your friends and one of

489
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,480
you wants to play the role of Princess Leia. Of course you want to know what colour the

490
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,400
lightsaber is so you can have your little bamboo stick sword fights.

491
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:26,680
I'll be honest, actually I think so I've read the convict adaptation of this and I know

492
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,280
what colour they pick there. You've actually taken me back by now thinking through this

493
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:37,000
book and going, do they not say? No, they don't say. They genuinely don't. To be fair,

494
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:43,280
they also don't say what Luke's lightsaber is. They only say it once right towards the

495
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,640
end. So maybe that's just something he was not interested in writing or maybe he found

496
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:53,280
it like almost embarrassing to like mention what colour it is, like as though that's important

497
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,240
and maybe he didn't think it is, but it absolutely is. Because the reader of this book wants

498
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,400
to know because they want to imagine it and they want to paint a picture in their head

499
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,760
and the colour of lightsabers is something that people fixate on.

500
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:10,880
I can definitely see both sides of this. I can see where Zahn as a writer would think,

501
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,280
does it matter? Does it affect my plot? It's just a lightsaber, they are swinging it. And

502
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:20,720
I completely agree with you. A young kid reading this wants to know because that's what we

503
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:26,520
were excited about. Did you have a blue one or a green one? Or a grown man? Do you know

504
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,280
what they don't have? Enough just, I think there should be more white lightsabers.

505
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:35,520
I agree. I think, I mean, I'm not totally, I'm not one of those guys like we should have

506
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:40,240
1800 different colours and they should all be assigned to someone based on their role.

507
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:45,080
You have a yellow one if you do this role because you're a Jedi guardian. No, they should

508
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:50,640
pick the colours they like. But yes, a white lightsaber would look cool. Duncan, what colour

509
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:55,480
is it? I need to know what colour is a lightsaber. I think they make it blue. I figured that

510
00:42:55,480 --> 00:43:00,360
was the case. That's what I was imagining. I think there was definitely an element of,

511
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:06,200
I think it's like the master has the green. She had a blue. They only really came in two

512
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:12,200
colours. They had two different colours. At this point. I mean, there were supposed to

513
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,760
only be two colours. There was supposed to be blue and they were supposed to be red.

514
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,760
But during Return of the Jedi, they're like, oh shit, this just does not work for this

515
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:26,480
scene. We can't see his lightsaber against the blue sky. We have to make it green. Well,

516
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,640
that's how these decisions get made to hell with all the law. If you want to know, by

517
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,400
the way, you talk about like mysticism and creating a lightsaber, if I'm not mistaken,

518
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,680
in shadows of the empire, Lucas literally sat in like Ben's hut over like a small oven

519
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:47,680
trying to cook up his new lightsaber crystal. It's, it's weird stuff. I wonder if the kyber

520
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,920
crystal had been made into the source of a lightsaber's power yet, or if it was still

521
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:57,040
this nebulous thing, which George Lucas hadn't decided what it did yet. I mean, other than

522
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,900
the kyber crystal is business of the mind's eye. I don't think they've been referenced

523
00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:08,520
unless they're in the novelizations of the movies. I'll leave that on the table, but

524
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,380
I don't know. It's certainly not explicit in this book, Duncan. I feel like the direction

525
00:44:12,380 --> 00:44:16,640
you've been pushing in for a little while, though I keep distracting you is you want

526
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:23,480
to talk about the new characters and aside from Thrawn. Yes, I do. Because as I said,

527
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:31,560
we get so many of them. And I think it's what made this book such a good launching point.

528
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,840
So many of these characters come back throughout so many other content. If anything, this is

529
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:42,200
almost the cast. Very few new characters get added and stick around after these books.

530
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:48,520
And for Timothy Zahn, as a writer to be picking up Star Wars, I think his decision to create

531
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:55,160
so many new characters and give them so much focus and development is what made this work

532
00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:03,800
and this great. Yes, that's and it's interesting to me. So I write fan fiction in my spare

533
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,840
time. I'm not going to give any more details. I'm pretty sure I did say what it is on a

534
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,480
previous podcast, but you're going to have to find that if you want to find out what

535
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:18,560
fan fix I write. But I noticed something surprising, which is that when I was reading fanfics as

536
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:24,720
a kid, I was like 13 years old and I was reading Naruto fan fiction. I remember not liking

537
00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:31,880
when authors create their OCs because it's embarrassing to read someone's deviant art

538
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:38,040
addition to the Naruto universe. And I feel like that is a serious thing which Star Wars

539
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:44,440
writers must be wary about. You're creating these new characters who are just as cool

540
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:50,120
as the original trilogy characters, right guys? I've got my totally badass space assassin

541
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:55,840
character I want to fit in. And something I noticed recently, I wrote, I was writing

542
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:02,940
chapters and I got a comment from one of my readers and he was saying, I wish you did

543
00:46:02,940 --> 00:46:09,160
more with the new characters you've invented for this story. I have to write in new characters

544
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,640
who weren't part of the original canon to make certain scenes work. And I was extremely

545
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:19,080
surprised that readers wanted more of these characters and not just ones that existed

546
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,880
in the original canon. They were actually connecting with them and they wanted them

547
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:30,240
to be more part of the story. And that is what is happening with Mara Jade in particular.

548
00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:35,320
That must be the most, the greatest compliment you could possibly get out of your fanfic.

549
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,480
Like someone just going, do you know what, the bits that aren't from the original work,

550
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:46,040
mate, that's the hot stuff. I basically have like two long projects I've written. One of

551
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:51,040
them is published at the time of recording this episode. I'm writing the final chapter

552
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:56,320
for the second one currently, so it's about to be over. And the first time I wrote it,

553
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,600
I wrote a bunch of side characters because basically the characters went to a different

554
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,200
location. Their friends are not around. I need to write new people. And I was so conscious

555
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,960
of the fact that I didn't want people to get annoyed by these characters that I put so

556
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:15,280
much emphasis into saying, I want these to be characters. People can be like, okay, they're

557
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,440
there. They're unobtrusive. They are frustrating at times because they get in the way. They

558
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:25,640
are not his cool OCs he actually wants to write this story about. Moving on. I know

559
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:31,000
why people liked those characters. I'm really surprised by the fact that people want more

560
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:36,000
from these side characters who I introduced to fill out scenes. That's baffling, but I'm

561
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,320
glad they like them.

562
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,440
So let's talk about these new characters. I'm not going to jump straight to Mara Jade.

563
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,920
I'm going to leave her to the back.

564
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:44,920
Fair enough.

565
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,680
I want to talk about some that maybe don't do a lot in this story, but gets potentially

566
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:54,360
some quite expansive roles further down the line. Captain Pellaeon.

567
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,800
I'm surprised to hear that he's going to be expanded further on. My assumption is that

568
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,880
he is exploded in the third book and then he's gone.

569
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:08,840
Geordi, spoilers for all of the new Republic. I apologize. She can not listen for 20 seconds.

570
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:17,640
You're talking about Grand Commander General Pellaeon, ruler of the remaining empire.

571
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:24,340
That's genuinely quite baffling. When we were talking about new characters, I was not expecting

572
00:48:24,340 --> 00:48:25,680
you to mention him.

573
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:31,360
I love him. He's amazing. He's just this guy who's always second in command and then

574
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:36,280
just doesn't die and then just naturally rises to the highest ranks of power by just

575
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,600
being alive.

576
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:43,800
That's funny. Okay. I can see why you want to bring him up now. That is amusing because

577
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:50,520
yeah, his job is to be a perspective character. He gives us insight into Thrawn. He doesn't

578
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:56,320
give that many commands himself. He provides commentary and he provides perspective on

579
00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:01,280
the character I assumed you were going to talk about, Joruus C’baoth.

580
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:08,320
Yes. Let's talk about Joruus C’baoth. Joruus C’baoth is a Jedi Knight, or is he, that Thrawn

581
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,440
finds at the start of this novel.

582
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,580
A dark Jedi because we're not allowed to use the word Sith because we don't know what

583
00:49:15,580 --> 00:49:16,580
it means.

584
00:49:16,580 --> 00:49:20,480
Also note, Jedi apprentice. There is no padawan.

585
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,520
That's fair. The word padawan is a little silly.

586
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:30,080
My, my young padawan. Right. Yes. He is introduced. Thrawn goes to get him because one, he's

587
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:35,440
protecting some equipment Thrawn wants and two, Thrawn thinks he can use a bit of Jedi

588
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,640
power in the back.

589
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:45,560
Yes. Very surprised to see him show up. I should have known better and when he did show

590
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:53,040
up, I was like, Oh, okay. Because the thing that they will not stop talking about whenever

591
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:58,720
Joruus C’baoth is around is outbound flight.

592
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:03,600
I did not know that this was something that had to be set up earlier. I assumed that he

593
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:09,720
had a novel new idea, but it made all of that book I read in my own time make so much more

594
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:14,600
sense when I was like, I need to fill in the gaps. And clearly Timothy Zahn wrote that

595
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,400
book purely because he was like, the prequels are happening. New content is being added.

596
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:25,960
I need to jump in as fast as I can to make sure that Thrawn is not decanonized. I need

597
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:32,040
to make sure that he fits into the world perfectly. So I'm going to write his origin and Joram

598
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,480
C'baoth is going to be there. And all of the details I mentioned about it are going to

599
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,040
be in the book and Obi-Wan Kenobi is going to be there for some reason, even though it

600
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:44,240
makes even less sense why he's there for a bit when you read this book.

601
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:50,520
So I've actually not read outbound flight. So I know even less about this than Geordi

602
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:57,680
does. Very rare reversal for Star Wars. In this book, he definitely is there to explore

603
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:03,200
the dark side and dark powers. We get a look at what someone who wants to use the force

604
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:10,320
for control looks like. We also get a site into a dark Jedi who is not trying to rule

605
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:16,200
the Empire. And something that Thrawn really observes is that when he rocks up, he's the

606
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:24,880
king. Dark Jedi, they want personal power, but not all of them are as optimistic as galactic

607
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:30,360
conquest. He's very happy just ruling his little bit of turf.

608
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,600
That's right. Joram doesn't have a lot to do in this book, so I don't think we end up

609
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:41,360
talking about him for too long. It's merely quite amusing that this bizarre character

610
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:46,080
who I was constantly like, why the fuck is this guy here in outbound flight? He doesn't

611
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:51,160
feel like a Jedi at all. That's why, because you need to set up this villain for a book

612
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:55,360
that came out like 15 years beforehand. What I would-

613
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,480
However- Geordi, go for it.

614
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,360
I assume you're about to talk about the same thing, which is that what he is there to do,

615
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:10,040
which is interesting, is that this is Timothy Zahn's assumption about what a clone war is.

616
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:16,400
Yes it is. This is my favourite bit of retconning that goes on within the old Star Wars universe,

617
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:21,560
the clone wars. There was an assumption about the clone wars, which George Lucas, in many

618
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:27,640
respects, intentionally subverted. He let these writers go on under this assumption

619
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:32,160
so that he could have some form of pull the rug out moment, I think, later on. Or he just

620
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,320
changed his mind on the spur of the moment and went fuck it.

621
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:40,880
I think, somewhere between the two, I think the truth lies. So the clone war, according

622
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:47,760
to Timothy Zahn, and I guess other writers of the era, the clones that were mentioned

623
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,760
were cloned Jedi. Am I wrong?

624
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:59,500
They included cloned Jedi. It was a collective of just clone masters and a clone army fighting

625
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:03,800
the Republic. They were the enemies, they were the aggressors in the past.

626
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,920
Which makes so much sense. And people talk about this all the time, back when talking

627
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:14,360
about fixing the prequels was a hot topic. The clones should be the bad guys, because

628
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:20,920
you want the losses on the side of the good guys to matter. You want that to be volunteers,

629
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:25,200
people who enlist to fight for the good. You want it to be heroic, fighting against the

630
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:30,680
evil faceless armies. Except the evil faceless army is fighting for the good guys in the

631
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:32,280
prequels.

632
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:37,720
Against an evil, more faceless army. Now, the clone wars, as they got developed, particularly

633
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:43,360
in the Clone Wars animated TV show, just about swing back around to working. But it certainly

634
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:49,100
makes a lot more sense to me where these initial assumptions laid. And I'm not going to lie,

635
00:53:49,100 --> 00:53:53,700
the amount of work that Timothy Zahn did down the line to make his clone wars and the actual

636
00:53:53,700 --> 00:53:59,480
clone wars match up. God that man. He had his work cut out.

637
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:04,040
He must have been so delighted when the forced unleashed video games came out and was like,

638
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,080
thank God, someone agrees with me, clone the Jedi, yes!

639
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:12,920
Exactly, but it's an interesting look at cloning. The idea is that there are these Spartae cloning

640
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:20,800
tanks in this book. And this is meant to be Thrawn's Trump- are they not? Or, Sodator?

641
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:26,000
Maybe a very- maybe in the next one. Maybe that was in Dark Empire.

642
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,960
No, that might be in Dark Forces, the next one. I do struggle- I'm going to say this

643
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:37,920
now, Geordie. I've read this trilogy and I've actually started reading a bit of Dark Forces

644
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:43,080
since finishing this book. Because I always read this as a set. So I do actually struggle

645
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:48,760
to differentiate- it's like Lord of the Rings. Okay, no, not like Lord of the Rings. Take

646
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:54,080
my back. In the sense that it's very much one story that is in three volumes.

647
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:59,280
Right, like say, Lord of the Rings movies where they're all filmed together, or the

648
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,960
second and third Matrix movies. Yes, that's right.

649
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:08,640
He completely has no idea what I'm talking about. He's never seen the third Matrix movie,

650
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:12,320
has he? It's also The Dark Force Rising, Before People

651
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,680
Jump on Me, is the second book. Okay.

652
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,840
Yes, and I have seen the third one, I haven't seen the fourth one.

653
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:24,800
Oh, never have I. I keep forgetting it exists. Okay, so, Joram Taken Care of. Actually, nope,

654
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,280
I'm going to jump on this because this was quite funny.

655
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:33,800
So whilst I was reading my physical book, and a book which I lost, I cannot find it

656
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:38,360
anywhere and I had to buy this book a second time on Kindle. So not only did I have to

657
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:45,680
read a Star Wars book, I had to read it, I had to buy it twice. My first copy was full

658
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:54,360
of syntax errors. Really bizarre stuff. This book came out over 30 years ago and I am finding

659
00:55:54,360 --> 00:56:00,200
syntax errors. There are missing punctuation marks, there are missing commas, there are

660
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,440
questions which are written as a question and don't have a question mark at the end.

661
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:09,480
There at one point was a bit where there was no paragraph breaks in between places where

662
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:16,080
perspective changed, whole scenes changed. I had Duncan go look at his own book and there

663
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:24,800
is a paragraph break in his book. So, this latest printing by Disney is full of obvious

664
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:30,760
mistakes and frankly, it's kind of bizarre that this would even be in such shoddy condition

665
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:35,320
considering that it is a 30 year old book with numerous editions.

666
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:42,320
I'm actually shocked to hear about this. So my edition is the 97 edition. So this came

667
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,760
out just before the prequels would have hit cinemas. So a little bit of the way through

668
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,960
most of New Republic's been written. And you're right, I don't understand how errors that

669
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:55,400
didn't exist in a prior publication, because I've actually checked errors that Geordie

670
00:56:55,400 --> 00:57:01,760
found against my copy and they're not in my copy. It's almost as if someone, they lost

671
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:06,840
like the original type and someone had to simply sit down on a laptop, read the book

672
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:13,400
and retype it and then just got careless. That's the only way I can get how this happened.

673
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:19,440
It's possible that they had a PDF version and the scan didn't go through properly and

674
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:25,920
they had to like make manual adjustments but or maybe it was made by AI. Maybe they plugged

675
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:32,840
in the text of a book into an AI and said, all right, reformat it to a new edition and

676
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:38,240
it made mistakes. I don't know. But it's a higher proofreader. You're Disney. Yeah, it

677
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:45,440
will tell them like two days. If that's also I want to say one more thing. The front

678
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:50,120
cover of my book, I really like. I think it's a great front cover. It has made us some cheap

679
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:55,320
material. It was sitting in my bag for like a week going when I was going to work and

680
00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:00,600
it was extremely damaged at the end of a week. Just for the record, my 97 edition still looking

681
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:08,320
good. So there we go. Those are my complaints. I brought it up because amusingly, I was so

682
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,840
used to catching these mistakes that I sent a text to Duncan at one point being like, I

683
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,040
don't believe how many mistakes there are in this. They even misspelt one of the characters

684
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,280
names and then I immediately sent back saying like, oh wait, no, that was on purpose. My

685
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:30,440
bad. Oh, you just you wait until we get to Luke or should I say Luke? Okay, now I'm very

686
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,320
confused but moving on. Are there any other special characters you want to talk about

687
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:41,800
before Mara Jade? Yes, there is. And that is our new criminal. I don't know what you call

688
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:50,240
it. Not mastermind, just gangster leader. Yeah, mob boss, gangster leader, smuggler.

689
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:55,320
Kaarde and he has a ship called the wild card, which is great. Good theming. I like

690
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,640
it. I mean, it's very much set up in this story that this is one the guys that kind

691
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:03,760
of sprung up and came in after the death of the hut. A little bit wobbly, maybe in the

692
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:08,120
full expanded universe. There are a lot of other huts out there, but yeah, he comes into

693
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,560
it and I really like this character because at the start of the story, he is trying to

694
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:17,440
be Mr. Neutral. He is in many ways almost a little bit early Han Solo again. You're

695
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:22,920
getting a guy he doesn't get fully involved, but you know, for a paycheque. He's willing

696
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:28,680
to do business. Absolutely. Yeah, this is a sort of character where if Han had never

697
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:34,280
met Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker in a couple of years time, like how much time has passed

698
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:40,240
since the battle of Yavin, like eight years. So maybe in a little over eight years, this

699
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:45,120
is someone who Han could have turned into. He levelled up from being a smuggler himself.

700
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:50,320
He got like a circle of cronies. He became a crime boss. This is sort of a little glance

701
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:57,400
of what he could have been, but also he's a really interesting character to follow for

702
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:04,240
a couple of reasons. For one thing, he represents this figure of power. He's a dangerous man

703
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:10,800
but he's engaging and even kind of nice. Like he's kind of gentle. You can tell that like

704
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:19,240
he treats his employees well and he's forgiving and seems very reasonable. Like he tases Luke

705
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:23,680
and locks him up, but then he's very nice to him. He's like, listen, I'm sorry that

706
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:28,440
we had to do all this. It's just business. So it was nice to see. It's nice to see like

707
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:32,840
why people follow these leaders. If one guy is too much of an arse or you do just think,

708
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:37,800
why doesn't just one of his cronies just put one blaster bolt in the back? Yeah. This guy

709
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:42,280
feels like a character who could come straight out of the expanse. He really feels lived

710
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:49,000
in. He represents this like underbelly of space society, but it's convincing. You know,

711
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:55,000
he's not just a caricature. It feels like he is the focal point for a crew. Like this

712
01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:02,640
is someone you believe people would follow. It's someone who you believe isn't just

713
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:09,880
sadistic. He's not being evil for kicks. He's a good person, but he's also willing to walk

714
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:17,160
whatever side of the law he has to, to keep his people safe. Yeah, exactly. And that's

715
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:22,040
and the conflict is that he almost has more agency than anyone else in the entire story

716
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:28,760
because he's the guy who has to decide between Republic and Empire. And he was walking so

717
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:34,160
steadily down this middle line where he's thinking really clearly about things like

718
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:39,400
long term impact or like short term gain by going to the Empire, but the Republic's going

719
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,080
to win and I'm going to keep walking down the central path and I'm not going to choose

720
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:48,680
sides until I see which way the wind's turning. And at a certain point you watch those principles

721
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:52,960
like break out from under him because he's going to lose and he's forced to choose a

722
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:59,400
side and that's a really engaging moment of indecision. Again, it's just that fleshing

723
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:04,840
out the world. Like I do really feel this character, this original character, I'm so

724
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:11,760
happy he was never made like a background character from Return of the Jedi. You know,

725
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,440
this is something you see quite a lot later on where they just pick random individuals

726
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:21,200
from the background and go up. That was a Bobi Fento. He was secretly doing all of this

727
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:29,240
and you're like, huh, it wasn't Boba Fett. Yeah, like the droid who explodes when it

728
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:34,080
goes in front of R2-D2. There's a whole comic book where he's actually a force sensitive

729
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:39,240
droid and he learned to be force sensitive so he didn't spill drinks in Jabba's palace

730
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:45,080
and he deliberately exploded himself in order for R2-D2 to be picked up by Luke instead

731
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:50,880
of him because that was the will of the force. Yeah, like that. Like that. I do think that

732
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:55,620
may have not been canon to start with, but yes, that story was written. There's another

733
01:02:55,620 --> 01:03:00,920
one where you know the droid that's torturing other droids in Jabba's palace like dungeons?

734
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:06,720
Oh yeah. That droid is one that apparently is just a sadistic droid that likes hurting

735
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:13,680
other droids and Lando nearly arrested him on Cloud City but he got away and between

736
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:18,640
scenes in Jabba's palace just before the sail barge leaves, Lando goes back and they have

737
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:28,120
like a standoff. Of course. That's so stupid. Oh fucking Star Wars. This is why sometimes

738
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:33,080
it's like yeah it was a good thing that Disney hit a race on a lot of that bullshit but also

739
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,720
we miss out on stuff like this. Let's keep talking. I think it's time we talked about

740
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:41,240
Mara Jade. Mara Jade. Interesting enough, I've just said that it's so good they don't

741
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:45,600
pick random background and announce that they were a complex character the whole time. Mara

742
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:50,040
Jade's a bit interesting because we get told in this book that she was one of the dancing

743
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:57,660
girls in Jabba's palace. Very strange. She's not. There's no person of her description

744
01:03:57,660 --> 01:04:04,780
in the scene at all. There are no hot redheads. Just sounds almost just like I can say this,

745
01:04:04,780 --> 01:04:12,640
the film's not been in cinemas for 10 years. VHS is only just coming out. No one knows.

746
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,920
And they're pretty low res. You can squint at the smudges in the background all you like.

747
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:25,120
They aren't yet being hidden behind a horrifying CGI alien singer yet. So we get that background

748
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:29,720
to Mara Jade but yes we're introduced to her. Now this character, one of my favourites of

749
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:35,040
the expanded universe and I think that's true for a lot of people. Mara Jade is introduced

750
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:42,320
as one of the cronies in Card's crew and she has so much kind of extra depth that we get

751
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:47,760
sort of lightly inferred to and then we slowly get revealed as the story progresses. One

752
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:54,480
thing we know very early on is that she hates Luke Skywalker. She wants to. What? Not our

753
01:04:54,480 --> 01:05:00,520
Luke. Who could hate him? He saved the galaxy. He destroyed the Death Star, killed the Emperor

754
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:03,840
and it's really nice because you get this moment throughout the early bit of the book

755
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:11,920
going why? Han Solo? You'd get. You come up with a hundred reasons. Yeah a lot of enemies.

756
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:16,920
He's burned leather. Went south on a deal. Whatever. You're like what did Luke do to

757
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:23,720
you? How could he have done something to you? He went from innocent farm boy to hero. Could

758
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:29,200
she be one of the two hundred thousand families who lost someone on the Death Star? Never

759
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:36,720
addressed. Thank you very much. Mara Jade is a standout for a lot of reasons and it's

760
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:42,960
really surprising that the character works because I was really prepared to be like okay

761
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:49,080
I know this is a like famous character. Can she live up to the reputation she's garnered?

762
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:56,180
Like people were very specifically annoyed that this character was erased by Disney wiping

763
01:05:56,180 --> 01:06:01,960
out legends. People specifically said no no no no no. Now we're losing this character.

764
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:09,880
So why is she so significant? Now one of those reasons is that she's a hot redhead. Good

765
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:19,240
reason. And as a man who likes hot redheads, that is a good reason. We need them. I would

766
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:23,440
surely miss a hot redhead that I was invested in if they suddenly vanished off the face

767
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:31,200
of the earth. However, surely there has to be more to it than that. And I was really

768
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:38,880
surprised in this first book how restrained it is because I knew what her backstory was

769
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:45,640
more or less from like I don't know a YouTube video I saw ten years ago explaining who Mara

770
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:54,680
Jade is in five minutes or less. And it wasn't like as typically DeviantArt OC edgy background

771
01:06:54,680 --> 01:07:03,440
as I expected. It wasn't like say the post or the mid prequel comic books about Darth

772
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:10,680
Maul's origin way so gnarly and dark and edgy and cool man. That's what I was expecting

773
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:17,360
and that's not what I got. Now I think the character is I don't say lacks at least what

774
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:23,600
we see here. So Mara Jade's backstory is that she was one of the Emperor's hand. This

775
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:29,240
she was the spy, the assassin. There's in a bit where Luke's like you worked for Vader

776
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:33,840
and she's like excuse me I worked for the Emperor. Do not insult me. And I think what's

777
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:38,880
nice is that there's something a little bit like when she talks about time in the Empire

778
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:43,800
she's really kind of I get a very kind of clinical vibe. She wasn't Darth Vader. She

779
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:49,080
wasn't oozing evil. She was just like they've given me a job. I'm appreciative that I have

780
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:56,800
a place in society and I do my job well. You know I don't think about the wider evil context

781
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:01,800
of my organisation and that's why she's angry at Luke because he got rid of that. That structure

782
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:06,200
and that world and I think that's a really nice insight when we do talk about you know

783
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:12,920
the fall of the Empire is the fact that well it had structure and sometimes lawful evil

784
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:17,560
over chaotic good. Some people like to know what's happening tomorrow.

785
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:23,720
Yeah the appeal of fascism in and of itself is that it's a strong arm. That's what people

786
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:28,240
like about it. That's why people fall for it. They're seduced by it because it provides

787
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:34,240
simple answers to complex questions. What I like about Mara Jade's character and I love

788
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:42,380
the fact that this is completely unstated. You just read into it through the way in which

789
01:08:42,380 --> 01:08:48,640
characters behave which is the fact that Mara Jade was extremely loyal to the Emperor so

790
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:55,120
much so that she wants to get revenge against Luke for destroying him. It doesn't matter

791
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:59,240
if it was actually Vader who did it. He's the one who brought him down so he needs to

792
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:05,920
pay but she doesn't pull the trigger when she has him because what matters is not actually

793
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:10,640
the connection between her and the Emperor. It's not like they had like a close relationship

794
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:16,840
is to be understood. It's the fact that he disrupted her life. Mara Jade has a new life.

795
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:25,440
Mara Jade is part of the wild card crew. She works for card and she is so obviously unswervingly

796
01:09:25,440 --> 01:09:32,480
loyal and it's really interesting that the primary attribute of your one of your principal

797
01:09:32,480 --> 01:09:37,820
antagonists in this story and make no mistake she's absolutely the one of the antagonists.

798
01:09:37,820 --> 01:09:45,880
She is of immense personal threat to Luke is the trait of loyalty. Loyalty is one of

799
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:50,160
the most commendable traits we recognize in heroes. It's one of the things we like most

800
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:58,160
about Luke. The fact that Luke is loyal to his friends and so the reflection of that

801
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:04,720
in this antagonist means that we have this thing to latch on to. It's never stated like

802
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:11,520
Mara Jade needs a leader to follow and without that she would fall apart. We just see the

803
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:16,840
way in which she's given orders. She grinds her teeth. She complains and then she does

804
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:22,500
it and it just has to be shown. It doesn't have to be told to us and that's impressive.

805
01:10:22,500 --> 01:10:30,000
So that's very good writing then from this Star Wars tie in novel. That's good writing.

806
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:34,040
Yes stop pointing out the fact that I'm enjoying a Star Wars book Duncan. It's not going to

807
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:38,760
happen again. Oh it's going to happen so many more times over and you're right and I really

808
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:43,200
enjoy that too. I think we see and I said you talk about her loyalty you also see the

809
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:48,440
fact that she doesn't pull the trigger and that although she kind of screams and shouts

810
01:10:48,440 --> 01:10:55,000
at Luke you also see at least this is how I read into it. She kind of knows that her

811
01:10:55,000 --> 01:11:00,560
anger really isn't for this just this one man. I often get the impression that it was

812
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:05,880
easy to hate Luke when Luke was just this idea of someone like she wasn't hunting Luke.

813
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,680
She's just like I just need to hate a face. I can't just hate the rebellion or the new

814
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:16,160
republic. I just need to pick a face to hate and when she finally gets it she's like oh

815
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:22,720
you're just why aren't you everything I've hated you to be. This is a tricky thing. This

816
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:28,880
is really tricky to talk about because now we are arriving at the reason why I don't

817
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:33,600
like talking about Star Wars which is that I have to acknowledge the fact that Star Wars

818
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:41,000
fans exists and I fucking hate fans of Star Wars. But we do a podcast anyway. We do a

819
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:44,720
podcast anyway. The reason why I don't like fans of Star Wars is they are the whiniest

820
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:50,120
motherfuckers on the planet. They constantly go on and on in their little subreddits and

821
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:58,280
harass actors and creative roles and go on these fucking disgusting tirades and I

822
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:04,600
know it's not all of them but it's so obviously this collective of place where people cannot

823
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:11,520
just enjoy children's content. They need to turn it into this prolonged campaign of

824
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:17,240
their own personal frustrations against the way in which society works and that has to

825
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:22,120
be channelled through the medium of Star Wars of all things. You can't just accept that

826
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:27,720
a bad movie happened. You can't just move on from that. And here's the problem I have.

827
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:34,760
The fact is I much prefer the depiction of Luke Skywalker in this to his depiction in

828
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:40,680
the modern movies and unfortunately in saying that I now sound like a fucking fascist.

829
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:47,480
Right. Okay. Stepping back into the room people. As George has expressed you're right there

830
01:12:47,480 --> 01:12:52,560
is some incredibly naughty I want I don't really want to use the word subset because

831
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:58,520
they are very vocal group of Star Wars fans that push a lot of weird external politics

832
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:03,600
onto this franchise which is just not there and they use it as a tool to talk about real

833
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:08,520
world stuff in a bizarre way. But one of the core complaints and one of the reasons to

834
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:14,840
be honest I got into the expanded legends EU long time ago is because I heard a lot

835
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:19,360
of complaints about the new Star Wars movies. I think if I'm not mistaken it was after the

836
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:25,280
last Jedi that I first went out and read. I believe it was an edge to the Empire about

837
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:30,200
edge to the Empire at the same time I also bought the Han Solo prequel book Paradise

838
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:35,160
Snare and one just so happened to arrive before the others I read that first but I wanted

839
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:42,440
to understand what did they do so different and reading this I was very much on their

840
01:13:42,440 --> 01:13:46,580
side I was like yeah I can see why this is more appealing because you're getting to see

841
01:13:46,580 --> 01:13:54,880
your hero be heroic. Yeah obviously that's nice but also seems to go through challenge

842
01:13:54,880 --> 01:14:00,720
it's still his story and his story of growth and development but he is still embodies all

843
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:07,520
of the same elements that we see him achieve he's still on his high from the last movie

844
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:14,280
we saw him this is a continuation and expansion on the character whereas on the projectory

845
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:18,960
we last saw him take off on whereas I do feel with the sequel stuff it is definitely an

846
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:25,400
expansion and a development of the character it's just not the projectory we left him on

847
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:32,840
and it does leave you going yeah what why? Yeah so and the answer to that for why is

848
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:39,820
is that by having Luke step away and deny the call of heroism by confronting our expectation

849
01:14:39,820 --> 01:14:46,960
that he was going to step in he was going to help Rey learn how to be a Jedi by taking

850
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:52,080
away from that role we sent to the story instead on Rey who is our main character obviously

851
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:57,520
we wanted to be focused on our main character it did not escape my notice but a huge subset

852
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:03,080
of those same fans they want Luke to step back in you know however many years later

853
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:09,360
it is like 30 something years and just become the hero again just take over and just push

854
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:12,760
all these other characters to the side it's about Luke now and that shouldn't be the

855
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:17,200
case if you're writing a story about Finn you're writing a story about Rey and you're

856
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:22,240
writing about Poe it should be about them so obviously you need to sideline those characters

857
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:26,600
and the way you're doing that is you're killing them off or you're having Leia be the one

858
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:31,920
who sends them on missions or she's asleep throughout the movie you set them to the side

859
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:38,480
and what that means is you have a bunch of fans who want this to be the movie they liked

860
01:15:38,480 --> 01:15:44,720
this book and they want this to be the principal story that gets told and the great thing is

861
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:49,760
this book still exists we're doing a podcast episode about it I had never read any Star

862
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:54,880
Wars book I had read I've read a grand total of three Star Wars books this is the third

863
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:59,320
one and I'm enjoying this one it still exists you can just read it.

864
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:06,120
It's this weird dichotomy where I deal with some people talking about oh they decanonised

865
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:11,520
it or the legends so it like never happened I'm like mate Star Wars never happened it

866
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:18,360
doesn't matter it's still there it is just as real as it ever is.

867
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:23,560
Don't sweat it enjoy it we still have it and also this is the positive of the medium this

868
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:30,400
is why books are so great because they don't have budgets you know you can have thousands

869
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:35,120
of starships on screen just as cheaply as you can have none and your characters can

870
01:16:35,120 --> 01:16:41,680
be any age you don't have to worry and the actors can always be in their peak moments

871
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:44,520
and Luke gets to be the hero because why wouldn't he be.

872
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:48,480
Anyway I'm sorry that we weren't in that extended round but this is why I don't like

873
01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:50,480
talking about Star Wars books.

874
01:16:50,480 --> 01:16:55,260
But then let's just remember why we are talking about it because I think this is just a good

875
01:16:55,260 --> 01:16:57,000
book in and of itself.

876
01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:02,160
Geordie here's a question for you hypothetical you got imagine a world and this is actually

877
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,720
going to be incredibly challenging can you imagine a world where this was book was just

878
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:09,880
handed to you and you hadn't seen the films.

879
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:13,720
That's a good question this book would make no sense.

880
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:19,120
I personally think you're absolutely right they give that and it's a safe assumption

881
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:23,080
but you're right this isn't quite stand alone.

882
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:28,640
No not at all I mean it's not supposed to be standalone it was never written to be and

883
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:34,920
a book standing by itself is not necessarily the highest mark of quality it's totally fine

884
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:37,840
to be connected to a wider work.

885
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:43,240
I do think that that's going to be an issue in the future of Star Wars knowing how confusing

886
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:45,040
and bloated it gets.

887
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:50,960
Just last year you took us on an exploration of Dark Empire and that's like the follow

888
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:56,240
up to this that was came out like what a couple of years later or even like a year later at

889
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:57,240
the same time.

890
01:17:57,240 --> 01:17:59,720
No I think we're talking a matter of months.

891
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:06,680
And you talk about how in that Leia is pregnant again and there's like a Sith prophecy focused

892
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:12,880
on that child and you're being like because he didn't know that Leia was pregnant in another

893
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:17,320
book series that was coming out and he should have just focused on those kids that already

894
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:18,320
existed.

895
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:22,960
Go back and listen to the Dark Empire there is so much to unpack there but you're right

896
01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:27,520
it is confused confusing and it's because of the interlinked nature I think what's really

897
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:29,960
good to say there about Heir to the Empire.

898
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:33,080
So yeah that question was actually to lead me into this point.

899
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:38,280
You're right you do need to watch the original trilogy obviously to read this book but you

900
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:41,640
only need to watch the original trilogy in order to read this book.

901
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:43,640
That's right exactly.

902
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:49,120
And it does and I don't think even though I have read so many more expanding universe

903
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:54,280
books you've read outbound flights and maybe you might slightly change your mind on this

904
01:18:54,280 --> 01:19:02,360
but this book was written intended and still stands as just the next step.

905
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:07,160
You have finished Return of the Jedi you need nothing else and this is the next powerful

906
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:08,160
step.

907
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:13,720
Chronologically it's not there's like 10 books between Return of the Jedi and this.

908
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:15,480
The X-Wing books right.

909
01:19:15,480 --> 01:19:22,080
Yes X-Wing they're to be honest great series Michael Sackville great author love the guy.

910
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:24,280
Are they all just about Wedge Antilles?

911
01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:28,840
So there's an original character called Corrin Horn who appears in those books and he actually

912
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:34,520
appears in later Simpsons own books but you're right Wedge Antilles is the wing commander

913
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:40,040
and Corrin Horn is the is the maverick of the group.

914
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:46,520
Now I was going to say that something I've never understood about the wider Star Wars

915
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:50,520
universe is how obsessed people are with the character of Wedge Antilles because when I

916
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:54,560
was watching the Star Wars movies as a kid I had no idea that he existed.

917
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:59,520
I had no idea that this guy was at multiple destructions of various death stars.

918
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:05,480
I didn't care I didn't pay attention but people love this guy for some reason.

919
01:20:05,480 --> 01:20:09,560
Wedge Antilles and he appears in this book is just the go to.

920
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:10,840
He's quite good in this book.

921
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:15,840
He's just the he's the other rebel if there needs to be a rebel soldier that isn't the

922
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:21,000
main heroes it's always Wedge that's who he is but you're right he has his own books

923
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:25,720
using the X-Wing which actually are really good books showing you characters that don't

924
01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:33,960
have that sort of plot shield of like the big four big five no big four and so that

925
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:37,840
is really thrilling and but there's also books like Trisha Baccarat where you see what did

926
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:43,960
Luke do literally the day after he woke up from his Ewok hangover.

927
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:46,080
Don't you want to know?

928
01:20:46,080 --> 01:20:50,240
Geordie, Han and Leah, they're married in this book.

929
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:57,680
We don't get to see the wedding, don't you want a book to show you that?

930
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:01,680
No. No I don't. What are you talking about? That's insane.

931
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:05,440
Another good thing that Timmy Zahn does in this book, and I really can't keep praising

932
01:21:05,440 --> 01:21:10,400
I think going through the characters is the best way to show what Zahn does so well but

933
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:14,360
he does just make loads of other creative decisions which I think are really healthy

934
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:19,680
for doing this very challenging thing expanding and established work he does that time gap

935
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:25,040
I said before it's good because it like elasticates where the characters can be but also just

936
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:31,320
gives him just breathing room in general we're back we're on Coruscant by the way Geordi

937
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:34,800
first time Coruscant ever named or referenced.

938
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:35,800
That's fascinating.

939
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:38,320
Zahn created it.

940
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:40,440
In fact there's quite a few things.

941
01:21:40,440 --> 01:21:47,600
And it's not described as a city sized city that covers a planet it's just a planet.

942
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:53,780
Yeah it is I believe it has Imperial City on it potentially at this point.

943
01:21:53,780 --> 01:21:59,560
It does become I think a city wide planet in the books before the prequels but not here.

944
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:01,940
There's the other bits of technology as well.

945
01:22:01,940 --> 01:22:04,600
There's the vibro-blades.

946
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:06,600
Yep it's a surprise to see that invented here.

947
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:09,960
No it was this is it this is where they were invented.

948
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:11,200
Wow there we go.

949
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:15,800
This is the little not lightsaber knives that you see I think in the Mandalorian we see

950
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:16,800
them.

951
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:20,160
Yep you see them in the prison break episode in season one.

952
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:21,280
Lots of additions.

953
01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:23,800
I hate being a fan of Star Wars and I know this shit.

954
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:25,000
So embarrassing.

955
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:27,480
Why can't we talk about Star Trek books?

956
01:22:27,480 --> 01:22:29,440
At least I'm a proud Trekkie.

957
01:22:29,440 --> 01:22:32,240
I know so little about those books.

958
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:38,120
I could do the next gen one actually but on this podcast we're fantasy only.

959
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:45,460
When one day when we have like tons of fans and we have a Patreon we'll do a Star Trek

960
01:22:45,460 --> 01:22:48,600
themed episode occasional episode there.

961
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:50,560
That sounds amazing.

962
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:52,360
That's a promise I will live to regret.

963
01:22:52,360 --> 01:23:00,040
One day we're podcasting superstars parking our limos outside Hudson's Chinese in the

964
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:05,240
future our podcasts will all be screened at movie theatres after the great revolution.

965
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:09,120
So Geordi we've basically thrown nothing but praise at this book.

966
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:14,280
Is there anything you want to like gun for some a niggle you said some bad things about

967
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:20,000
the character of Joruus C'baoth the dark Jedi and the syntax but is there anything

968
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:26,200
fundamental to how this is put together you're like nah it's good tie-in but it's not good

969
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:27,560
literature.

970
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:34,040
I have quibbles regarding how small the galaxy is like they just run into stuff by coincidence

971
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:35,640
a bunch.

972
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:41,800
I think that I don't like the fact that Luke is a little bit too gung-ho with his lightsaber

973
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:46,000
at times like there's a bit where he just like charges for room and kills 10 people

974
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:51,720
with his lightsaber and obviously Luke kills people like that's just a thing he does he's

975
01:23:51,720 --> 01:24:00,040
a rebel fighter but it is a bit too Conan-y for my taste for Luke Skywalker just be like

976
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:01,400
cutting people down.

977
01:24:01,400 --> 01:24:05,400
I much prefer the bit at the end where he like chops down pillars and he does like a

978
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:08,400
clever trick with his lightsaber that feels more appropriate.

979
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:14,640
It sort of makes you feel like this Luke wouldn't have done his whole ploy in Jabba's palace

980
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:18,960
he would have just walked in with his lightsaber and gone okay Jabba.

981
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:22,840
Wrapped off the head job done.

982
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:29,000
Exactly so I don't really like that too much because I don't want Jedi to just be murder

983
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:32,040
hobos I want them to be something more.

984
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:38,160
Other than that do I have any other problems?

985
01:24:38,160 --> 01:24:43,400
I don't like the fact that you made me read a book which has a cliffhanger because you

986
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:47,440
wanted me to pick the next pick it as the next book.

987
01:24:47,440 --> 01:24:52,160
Actually I would never be so manipulative and I know you have internal fortitude look

988
01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:58,000
at me I've been resisting the next Scholomance books for months.

989
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:01,000
It's over a year actually.

990
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:03,040
And I really like them.

991
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:04,040
But who's counting?

992
01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:06,920
Yeah yeah great you motherfucker.

993
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:12,680
Alright um Duncan I think I've accidentally done a perfect segue to the end of the episode

994
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:15,840
who do you recommend this book for?

995
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:17,320
Star Wars fans?

996
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:21,240
I don't recommend it for not Star Wars fans that's for sure.

997
01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:22,720
Yeah if you...

998
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:28,480
No wait wait wait I have a complaint I have a complaint what the fuck Timothy Zahn?

999
01:25:28,480 --> 01:25:29,920
What did he do?

1000
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:30,920
Hot chocolate?

1001
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:31,920
Yeah hahaha.

1002
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:41,120
I showed that to my girlfriend and she went hmm that's not right.

1003
01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:46,480
So much to infer like is there a planet that just so happens to also have the identical

1004
01:25:46,480 --> 01:25:52,360
like cocoa bean or did Lando find Earth?

1005
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:58,960
That's just hot chocolate Lando introduced Luke Skywalker to hot chocolate.

1006
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:02,840
Is there more chocolate does that get brought up in future books or is that one mistake

1007
01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:03,840
that could never be...

1008
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:09,000
Oh no no no they lean into it like Lando Calrissian is hot chocolate and ice cream it's just one

1009
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,040
of his things it's his schemes mate.

1010
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:17,120
Hahaha that's funny good good good I'm very pleased to hear that.

1011
01:26:17,120 --> 01:26:23,320
Alright let's move towards the end I also recommend this book to fans of Star Wars.

1012
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:27,800
Yep it's the best Star Wars book that I have read.

1013
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:29,960
It makes me like outbound flight less though.

1014
01:26:29,960 --> 01:26:37,360
I already was souring on it but now it feels so cynical and I cannot recommend a book in

1015
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:42,120
the slightest anymore but definitely I do recommend this book.

1016
01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:46,640
It's sad that we now have to move on to other pastures.

1017
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:48,440
Regrettable but very much needed.

1018
01:26:48,440 --> 01:26:54,720
Can I just ask you Geordie quickly if we are not continuing how do you feel about Air to

1019
01:26:54,720 --> 01:27:02,800
the Empire as a you know incomplete narrative does it still give you enough?

1020
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:09,280
I think that it is a pretty extreme cut off you know a lot of threads are still dangling

1021
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:17,880
you've got the Noghri with Leia that's not resolved you've got the Mara Jade and Luke

1022
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:25,160
Skywalker you've got Thrawn's future plans yeah it's not a complete narrative in the

1023
01:27:25,160 --> 01:27:26,520
slightest.

1024
01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:31,340
And that's what I alluded to earlier I feel very similar that I often have read this as

1025
01:27:31,340 --> 01:27:37,640
a trilogy again and again because do read this first book and I think you will enjoy

1026
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:42,920
it but you're right it even looking back now it all blends into one because it really does

1027
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:47,520
feel like one one narrative over three volumes.

1028
01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:53,440
I mentioned a couple of episodes ago in our top 50 episode about how strange the dreamer

1029
01:27:53,440 --> 01:27:58,640
is the only book in the entire podcast where one of us has gone well I have to read the

1030
01:27:58,640 --> 01:27:59,760
next one.

1031
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:04,800
We've read sequels on the podcast but normally just because we're like yeah we want to follow

1032
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:09,480
this thread through to the end but we absolutely could go elsewhere we didn't have to read

1033
01:28:09,480 --> 01:28:13,040
the subtle knife after the Northern Lights but we chose to.

1034
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:17,380
The end of strange the dreamer was so intense and so cliffhanger that you had no choice

1035
01:28:17,380 --> 01:28:24,200
but to read the next book and we're kind of at a similar point here which is why the next

1036
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:27,160
book we're gonna be reading is Dark Force Rising.

1037
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:34,440
Okay I thought you made me enjoy Star Wars so much I wanted to read the next one

1038
01:28:34,440 --> 01:28:37,320
and I have been reading it I've already started reading it.

1039
01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:40,040
I mean I have too.

1040
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:42,440
Duncan I bought the next two books.

1041
01:28:42,440 --> 01:28:47,840
Oh Geordie can you imagine if I don't pick the third if I leave you dangling there.

1042
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:53,920
I will skin you if you don't do it but in a nice family friendly way.

1043
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:57,160
I am delighted I am actually I'm overjoyed.

1044
01:28:57,160 --> 01:29:03,480
Geordie you're about to go on I think the most satisfying Star Wars journey you probably

1045
01:29:03,480 --> 01:29:06,440
have ever had since watching the original trilogy for the first time.

1046
01:29:06,440 --> 01:29:11,360
It is a delight and I'm very smug for introducing it to you.

1047
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:14,960
Do you think the next book is better than the first one?

1048
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:22,920
It has some very strong plot some of the characters or I don't know I don't know I can't tell

1049
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:24,880
you yeah I've got to reread it Geordie.

1050
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:30,280
It certainly has some character plots are better than their part in the first book.

1051
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:35,680
Leia definitely comes to the forefront in the next book however other characters maybe

1052
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:39,440
they drop back a bit and I think that's an ebb and flow we'll see over all three books

1053
01:29:39,440 --> 01:29:45,560
in this series because I can't see myself not picking the final book after this Geordie.

1054
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:48,840
Alrighty then alrighty.

1055
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:53,400
If you have read Heir to the Empire, seen Star Wars or just have an opinion on what we've

1056
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:58,560
just said please do reach out and let us know at if it's just fantasy podcast on Instagram.

1057
01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:02,400
You can also reach out to us at our Gmail is this fantasy podcast at gmail.com love

1058
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:08,000
to hear your thoughts if you think we've completely done Star Wars dirty feel free to send a shouty-

1059
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:11,240
ranty message I'm sure I will also read it.

1060
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:15,040
I want to interrupt here and say that there's a possibility I don't know how the time

1061
01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:18,760
rooms are going to line up here there's a possibility that the next episode you're going

1062
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:24,400
to hear will not be Dark Forces Rising it may be Children of Anguish and Anarchy or

1063
01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:25,400
whatever it's called.

1064
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:30,800
Anarchy and Anguish the last book in the Children of Blood and Bone series because that book

1065
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:36,200
is coming out quite soon relative to where we are recording this and we are definitely

1066
01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:42,560
going to jump in read that as quick as we can and then get a review out and I don't

1067
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:47,680
know whose pick that will be I literally have no idea because I picked the last one but

1068
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:51,840
it was by spending a destiny point to make you read it I have no idea if that even counts

1069
01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:55,600
I think we'll do it as a mutual agreement for the good of the podcast we both want to

1070
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:59,560
see that series finished and it's always fun to do it in a timely manner and be part

1071
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:04,560
of the zeitgeist of a new book released just like we were with Empire of the Damned it's

1072
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:09,200
a lot of fun so yes while we are doing the Thrawn trilogy as it has been called in the

1073
01:31:09,200 --> 01:31:15,000
past or not really called now as the Empire trilogy we may get punk that one in just so

1074
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:20,760
we can be with you all it is called the it is called a Thrawn trilogy on my cover of

1075
01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:25,920
my book interesting in the back of my book it's actually just called the Empire trilogy

1076
01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:32,040
they have renamed it over the years that's interesting I guess because Thrawn became

1077
01:31:32,040 --> 01:31:35,520
such an influential character but then they brought out another Thrawn trilogy later down

1078
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:42,960
the line so it gets very confusing yes that's true that is true hmm I've been your host

1079
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:47,720
Geordie Bailey and I've been your host Duncan Nicoll till next time may the force be with

1080
01:31:47,720 --> 01:32:06,120
you, always.