Hello and welcome to Is This Just Fantasy? The podcast where every week two nerds get
together and discuss a fantasy novel. I'm your host, Geordie Bailey.
And I read this book in the dark room scrutinizing the art to exploit the weaknesses of the species
that created it, Duncan Nicoll.
That might be Duncan's strangest introduction yet but I promise it does make sense because
this week we read Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn. The second, well, kind of the third,
but follow up to our Dark Empire episode from last year. Duncan has once again made me read
a Star Wars novel and he will never be forgiven.
Happy May the 4th!
In June!
Yes, Geordie, I got you to read this. I'm a massive Star Wars fan. I have been my entire
life. I love both old canon legends, I love the new stuff coming out and this May I just
got the bug again. I just really want to dive back into the Star Wars universe and share
it with my friend. And what better way to do that than with this book, Heir to the Empire
by Timothy Zahn, the book that relaunched the Star Wars expanded universe way, way back
in 93, I think it was.
Yes.
A real seminal piece.
Duncan and I both listen to a podcast every so often called the Old Canon Star Wars Book
Club. I believe that's true that you also listen to that, Duncan.
I am a huge fan of it.
I am an okay fan of it. Much like the previous book club which Jesse Cox ran, I like Jesse
Cox, he's a funny YouTuber. Much like the previous one, I was about to say the old podcast
it is, but this is the old one. I think their discussions, it's really hard to understand
what's going on unless you've seen the thing they have because they don't go into a lot
of detail. I don't mean to slag off another book podcast, they're much more successful
than we are.
Yeah, way more successful than us. But I know how you feel and it's something that I'm always
very conscious of, but for someone who when they're doing the first 20 issues of the original
Marvel Star Wars comic book run and they're like, yes, I've read these. I know exactly
what you're on about. Yes, yes, yes. Darth Vader did have a chat with Princess Leia at
a banking planet to discuss the deposit of the Alderaanian crown jewels. Of course he
did.
And I brought it up because I wanted to point out a distinction you made, which is that
you said this sort of reignited Star Wars because there was additional what we now call
legends material already being made before this. You had comic books set out by Marvel,
you had tie-in novels like Galaxy's Edge. Is it called Galaxy's Edge or is that the
theme park?
Well, that's yeah, well, that's a modern example. Galaxy's Edge theme park. There was a tie-in
novel called Dark Spark. I think what you're thinking of though is Minters of the Mind's
Eye.
That is not what I'm referring to.
And the Han Solo novels. No?
I'm talking about the Han Solo one, like Galaxy's End or something. Is that what it's called?
Han Solo at... Oh, was it called? Something's End.
Star's End, right?
Star's End.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I'm talking about it. But yes, this is sort of supposed to be the new kick-off. A lot of
a time when big Star Wars nerds, and they were talking about this a lot, especially
when The Force Awakens was due to come out or had just come out, were saying, man, now
we're never going to get adaptations of these works. This is my favourite part of Star Wars,
the stuff that wasn't made by George Lucas.
Not an uncommon stance to take, surprisingly. But you're absolutely right. This was very
popular and what it did and why it kicked off is mainly for one fact, that this was
the first bit of Star Wars media after the original trilogy that was really allowed to
push the characters and the universe forward. Everything else was kind of a prequel, midquel,
bit of a wheel spinner. No one was really allowed to do the next step, even the Marvel
comics. After the end of Return of the Jedi, they all sit on Endor. The comic artist was
just not allowed to relocate the characters because you didn't know if George was going
to come in and pick up exactly where he left off. This is the first time where George kind
of went, I don't care, go for it.
The thing is, that's personal because that's exactly what you were talking about last time
we recorded when we were talking about the gunslinger. You were talking about how right
now all the stuff that Disney makes is in this same interwar period. The Mandalorian
stuff is in the space between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens. The comic books
are set in between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. The novels are in the
same similar period and now the newest novels are all pre-Republic. They are in these isolated
zones of safety where there's room to flex but nothing is going forward. Nothing is taking
place after the rise of Skywalker.
To be honest, I think that is as much a problem now as it probably felt back then. You sit
around going, well, why should I invest in this media if it's, I'm going to say matter,
in terms of the quality of the stories. That's not a knock against the quality of any of
these works. But I think if you enjoy a fantasy multiverse, yes, it's really fun to read those
tiny little niche stories and some authors craft beautiful tales. There's a story, Geordi,
which is basically MASH drawing the Clone Wars. It follows Jedi medics and their experience
fighting the Clone Wars. That's a really cool little slice of what Star Wars can be.
But people like to see Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, Chewbacca, Lando Calrissian
actually taking the next steps in developing his characters. And that's what this book,
I think, kind of starts to give us.
Yeah, uh, the Star Wars pre-Disney purchase new canon stuff, it had a reputation and this
was what I gathered when The Force Awakens was coming out. So this was many years ago
now. When it was coming out, the impression I had was that it was extremely bloated and
it was very, um, it was full of minutia. It was full of these like weird events which
you sort of just had to roll with. It's sort of like my impression of like what it's like
to read a lot of Marvel, where other writers come in, they make changes to the world, and
then you just have to put up with it. There's no rolling back the clock. I mean, they do
in Marvel constantly, but those events still happened.
That's definitely so. And what we're talking about today, Heir to the Empire kicked off
in the Star Wars sort of canon, this era known as the New Republic. And in terms of literary
works, it wasn't like a one consistent narrative. This was the era where they would, um, Lucas
Arts, sorry, Lucas, Lucasfilm, they were just sort of bringing in, um, established science
fiction authors or fantasy authors in a few cases and sort of just saying, here, give
us a trilogy, give us a one off, and we'll just keep kind of building it forward. Without
like a real plan in mind, I suppose you could consider this whole era as the story of fighting
the Imperial remnant. You know, Palpatine's down, but there are still pockets of resistance,
Imperial resistance out there in the galaxy.
In my copy of the book, Duncan, at the back, they have a whole chronology of all of the
like legends material that takes place, you know, pre original trilogy in between the
original trilogy and after. And the after period has like distinct eras where it's like,
this is five years after the destruction of the second Death Star. This is 20 years after.
This is 40 years after.
Yes, you're right. And so what they did, so this era of the New Republic, that was that
bitty bit, then around the time the prequels were coming out, they decided, right, we're
actually going to tell one big story now. And that was called the New Jedi Order series.
And so it's still lots of different authors, but then they started doing it where it's
like, no, no, no, we have a plan. There's going to be an overarching plot. And we're
going to really try to actually push new characters, original characters that came out of the books
and not related to the films, bring them all to the forefront. You know, this isn't just
a Luke, Han and Leia show anymore. But that's all to come. And I love it. And I've read
a lot of it. I've nowhere near read all of it. It's huge. We're talking over 100 books.
It's one of those things, Jordi, where if I said only one in 20 Star Wars books was
worth your time, you're still reading like 15 novels. It's crazy.
And so this one has the reputation or this trilogy has the reputation of being the very
best. Am I wrong about that? Is there better stuff to come after this?
No, there is. There is some really good stuff to come. That's not what I asked.
Damn you. It certainly is a contender for the best. Like this trilogy is up there. It's
either the best Jordi or it's the top three or the top five. Like it's three books. How
could it be? Oh, that's because Darth Bane only has one
decent book in that trilogy. Okay.
But you're right. This is the best. I would actually say if you read this book, if you're
thinking about getting to expanded Star Wars, read this book. If you don't like it, maybe
this isn't for you. Well, we've got to find out if it is for me, Duncan, because you have
said this is the best and therefore that implies that you like it. I have not yet given an
opinion on what I thought of this book. Then let's start reviewing it Jordi. Everyone
knows I love it. What do you think? Come on, summarize it.
I think Duncan, that this wasn't very good book.
I'm so happy. Yeah. You had to win it out of me. I had to
read this in front of my colleagues, Duncan. In the staff room where I work, people saw
me reading a Star Wars novel. There was no hiding it. But yes, I did enjoy it. I really
did. It's um, it feels like a forward faithful adaptation. It's enjoyable and it feels nice
to immerse yourself in Star Wars in a format you're not really used to. The fact that it
makes this translation from screen to book means that the actions people undertake in
it, like when they're piloting a star, you know, a starship, you can't just see them
pressing buttons. It has to use actual tech jargon and it's enjoyable. It feels like a
super deep dive into a Star Wars space. It makes me want to play like a Star Wars role
playing game and inhabit the space again. I'm so happy you liked it. Coming back and
revisiting this book for quite possibly the third time, I was once really impressed by
not only how loyal it was in recreating the feel of the original film, but also how I
actually think Timothy Zahn has been quite brave in the new elements and new characters. He
was prepared to give a substantial amount of page time to show was he sure was and it's
not really at least yet. I think again, this is just from my from inhabiting nerd spaces.
My understanding is that Timothy Zahn becomes very precious about the character of Thrawn
and he really falls in love with writing the character so much so that he's basically a
hero in a number of the books that he writes about him and including Outbound Flight, the
other third book I've read in the Star Wars universe where Thrawn is basically the hero
of the story. That is quite possibly the case. I think Zahn got a little burnt. Another character
that appears in this book and we'll discuss later, Mara Jade, one of his creations. Another
author takes that character later on and does things I believe Zahn was very vocally against
and I think ever since then he's like, okay, I'm keeping this one. This one's my baby.
You won't touch him.
Until Star Wars Rebels comes out.
Oh, exactly. Until he gets brought over into the new canon. That was the level of his popularity.
So Geordi, you like the book. I love the book. Let's start out. This book opens and we get
introduced immediately to the character of Thrawn.
Yes, very surprising.
What did you think of him?
So I've already met Thrawn of course because I've read Outbound Flight. This is his first
proper introduction and he's much... Outbound Flight I enjoyed well enough. It's a book
that overstayed its welcome but it was very obvious why people enjoy the character of
Thrawn. In this book it's so much more. He's so much more appropriate and so much more
interesting and enjoyable to read about. It's a lot like reading a Sherlock Holmes novel.
You inhabit the character of Dr. Watson or in this case Captain... Was it Pellaeon?
I pronounce it Palaeon but that does not mean it's right.
Yeah, Palaeon seems about right. So Captain Palaeon is a witness to Thrawn's genius and
he gets to sort of marvel at what he's doing. And what's really great about it is that Captain
Palaeon is always like a little bit in the dark and is always a little bit frustrated
and confused and it strikes a very good tenor because you have this captain who appears
to be completely... A completely decent captain in terms of like his ability to run a ship.
And so when Thrawn is making these high level chess plays and he's a little bit baffled
by it, that's a good lens for us as readers to be held at a distance from Thrawn's genius
and to know intellectually that he has a plan. And Zahn also plays with things like dramatic
irony where Thrawn is able to almost see through the plot in order to ascertain what other
people are doing but also crucially get things wrong and make wrong assumptions which makes
our heroes look yet more heroic. Basically he acts as this great antagonist because you
enjoy the chapters where he's present, you enjoy trying to keep up with him and see what
his plans are and figure out what's going on at Sluice's Vane, what does he need at
this secret mountain, what's his overall plan. But you also like seeing the points where
he's being decisive and he's getting in the way of the heroes and you see where they are
falling into his traps and it raises the tension.
I'm so glad you brought that Sherlock Holmes element up so quickly, Geordie. I've always
said that what really makes this character work is that you come off the Star Wars trilogy
and you have the Dark Knight Vader and you have the maniacal cackling evil emperor. So
to get this Moriarty figure, this genius, this chess player, he's very different. He's
not physically intimidating. He doesn't have superpowers like the previous villains.
Something which repeatedly happened in both Outbound Flight and the Revenge of the Sith
book we read was that Palpatine is obviously the master manipulator, but he also has magical
powers helping him. The whole point of him is that he has the entire universe in the
palm of his hand and everything goes according to his plan and it's so much more enjoyable
and so much more impressive to read about Thrawn doing similar levels of manipulation
purely by intellect. He doesn't have any magic on his side. He's making literal actual mistakes
and then he corrects for those mistakes. That's so much more interesting and engaging and
intimidating than any of the stuff Palpatine was doing.
We have said previously how a villain can be so much more engaging or intelligent is
so much better written when the characters make mistakes and then you see them have to
come up with other plans. They're not omnipotent and I do think, particularly in this first
book, Thrawn, maybe because we're a little bit further back, just sits on the right side
of that. He doesn't seem too clever, too omnipotent at the moment.
At the moment, maybe. I think there are times where it pushes credulity a little bit, but
that's part of what you enjoy about stories about Sherlock Holmes-like figures. They are
so intelligent. You watch Sherlock or House and they make these huge leaps of logic to
get to the right location and that's part of the genius. That's part of the appeal.
I was just going to say I don't want to hone in on this one character too much because
then we would be making the same mistake as Thrawn.
I just want to say one last thing.
Good well, keep going.
I just want to say one last thing that I really like about this character. I think it's set
up in this book and we may be over the course of, not to get spoilers for the whole trilogy,
you see this sort of progress. At the beginning, it's really like he tries to be like, oh,
I'm not a slave to my ego. I'm not Darth Vader. I'm not going to throw a hissy-pia. I'm not
going to start killing, well, he does actually.
He does. He does do exactly that.
That's not the best example, but I like the fact that he's like, oh, we've lost today.
I'm just going to hands up guys. Let's retreat.
Yeah, I like that too. Absolutely.
Yeah, because the only other figure that fills in that role and I've seen this in Star Wars
comic books is other righteous have tried to turn Grand Morph Tarkin into that figure.
He's the big strategist and manipulator and intimidating threat and he's not even remotely.
He's an idiot. He's completely overconfident. He puts all his eggs in one basket and then
gets exploded for it.
Which is his entire character. Something that they do in the expanded universe on Tarkin,
which is so baffling. Have you ever heard of the thing called like the Tarkin Doctrine
in Star Wars?
No, I haven't.
You sure do. So the thing called the Tarkin Doctrine, which is meant to be how Tarkin
came up with this idea to help have power in the Empire. And it's all about having a
vast mobile fleet. And to be fair, there's an element of like fear is what keeps people
in control. And that's why he thought, oh, yes, the Death Star, it will, the fear of
it, the threat of using this weapon will help us rule the galaxy. But that completely goes
against the idea that he thought, no, I want to have a vast mobile fleet of like very uniform
ships. It's like that's it doesn't work. That's not his character. He has a folly. And that's
why everyone who goes for super weapons, which Thrawn does not use, a fail. I also love the
fact that he doesn't go. There's not a second Death Star in this. But you're right. Let's
stop focusing on Thrawn. Let's go back to the rest of the plot. How about our heroes,
Geordi?
Yes.
You've met them before?
We've met them before. So this book primarily follows Luke, Han and Leia, each of them taking
on different roles within confronting the threat of Thrawn. Interestingly, they don't
know there is a threat from Thrawn, that he's lurking the shadows so much that they are
circling the drain of the rising evil.
I mean, what a beautiful way to put it. And you're right. And what I really like about
in the opening of this story, we see a little bit of the Republic that they're trying to
do. And I love this element of how they're actually having just very mundane problems
of running a democracy.
I absolutely really like that. It's always been this sort of blasé, thrown away thing
in Star Wars, where there are just two things you need to know about non-imperial power.
They say, oh, the Republic was a mess. And that's that. They say the Republic is a mess.
And then they say the new Republic is picking up the pieces of the Empire. And you see that
in Mandalorian, that's a throwaway thing, but we can't help out these outer rim planets
because there's too much chaos going on. But you don't get a lens in on that actual politicking.
And I don't like anything about the way people talk about politics in the old Republic because
of a whole bunch of reasons. And I don't want to get into it, but it's all to do with how
people talk about a prequel and I can't bloody stand talking about a prequel anymore.
So let's talk about how the Republic, the new Republic is portrayed in this book, Geordi.
We get an insight, we get a very high level insight, to be fair, where Leia is right up
there alongside Mon Mothma, sort of the heroes of the rebellion. But there's also these other
people that have come in.
Yep.
Now I'm going to butcher this name, but there is a character here, a Bothan, called Fey’lyn?
I assume it's pronounced Fey’lyn, yeah.
Fey'lya, who sort of represents this simultaneously probably very reasonable voice and at the
same time just so frustrating to our heroes. Because we know our heroes are right.
Of course.
They're the heroes.
Yeah.
But, but, and he's being antagonistic towards them and you're just like, well, it's annoying,
but no, it's not annoying, it's great. He's perfectly pitched as annoying or irritating
because you're just looking at, he's just not being unfair enough. You can't quite call
him out. You can't quite go, damn, this man, he's working against the democracy. He's just
the opposing voice.
He's sort of the Thomas Jefferson of the new Republic. Like you weren't here for the revolutionary
war man. You were off in the background somewhere and now that we're in power, you want to take
the reins?
But is that not part of a democracy? Why do you let the leaders of the paramilitary group
that took power continue to have power?
I totally agree. I mean, Fey'lya doesn't say that explicitly, but if he did, I would agree
with him. Maybe General Ackbar shouldn't be the supreme ruler of the army.
Now I wouldn't say this, like this is some really interesting ideas. I would say it is
given a fair bit of background, particularly in terms of page count. Like I don't think
Zahn, he's like, shows you it and then goes, okay, now let's get our characters out in
the world.
Exactly. It reflects on all the decisions our characters make. They're doing things
to support the Republic or they're doing things because they're impinged by the new Republic
and its rules or its security. There's a big part of this book, like Lando is brought in
because they need to start going behind their own Republic's back. The thing they are creating,
they're like, we can't do the things we need to do in normal politics. We need to go back
to doing our rebel shit. So we need to start talking to criminals again.
It's something that's been kind of brought up a bit. Think of the most recent Ahsoka series
on Disney Plus. This idea of if you have a group of people who were so steadfast in their
beliefs they rebelled against the last government, surely they'll just do it again. Like when
did, how do you transition? How do you go, no, I disagree. But not like last time when
I disagreed. This time I'll disagree and just sit back.
Yeah. Revolution sent end up being pretty messy when they tried to make a new government
and you tend to get people like, actually, the more I think about this, it's amazing
that Admiral Ackbar isn't like an actual like fascist dictator because he's, he's set up
perfectly to fit into that role if he just went a little further. Speaking of people
giving up power though, I'm going to hone in on Han Solo. I'm going to say something
first and foremost. Timothy Zahn made a very good choice when he made Han Solo immediately
resign his commission as general. Han Solo should never have been a general.
Are you saying George Lucas got it wrong? Yes, he got it wrong. Why the hell was, why
was Han Solo a general? I genuinely have forgotten that they ever made him, gave him that role.
That's ridiculous. Did they? I'm thinking like, when did they even
do that? Like Hoth, is he a general on Hoth? No, he's like, he doesn't even work for the
rebellion on Hoth. It's like, it's Endor. Like after he gets unfrozen, he gets made
a general. That's insane. Is he not a general? I'm
going to have to rewatch the movies. If you'd asked me, I would have said they just called
him commander because he puts together a strike force. Like he does nothing general like,
but you're right. I'm glad he resigns. If anything, Lando has more of the character
to actually like organize and run things. That's definitely true. Like he's like an
administrator. Han Solo should always be a captain. I mean, maybe he's going to progress
in actually. Well, so Han Solo as depicted by Timothy Zahn, in some ways you're like,
yes, you have captured the voice of this character and you're inhabiting the inside of his head
quite well. I really like wife guy Han Solo. I really like the, I am super in love with
Leia. I'm extremely anxious about losing her and her unborn children. And that's going
to, it's going to change all of my actions throughout this book. I like that. I do think
that Han Solo is fitting in a little bit too well to politicking. It feels more like he's
been written as like a spy van, like a smuggler. And I think there is an important distinction
in between those two sort of tropey characters. So he has a little bit more of an S bit, well,
just too much insight. Actually, he just has too much like, ah, I'll do this because this
will inform Phalanx actions or what's going on. I think he just needs to have one or two
moments I think in this story where he does something that just maybe it's the right thing
to do. And you can see it from Han Solo's approach, say it was, I dunno, involved protecting
Leia, but then afterwards Leia just turned around and be like, you know, the political
disaster you've just created for me. Well, that kind of does happen, but Han Solo was
shown to be in the right and that's after, what's it called? This is literally impossible
to turn it, like Beshpin, when they're attacked. And then afterwards they get back on the Millennium
Falcon and Han just leaves. He just flies away. He doesn't wait for him to go back and
Leia wants to go back and do diplomacy and he just goes back to Coruscant and he doesn't
tell anyone he's doing this until they've already on their way.
True, but I think that's the point because he's shown to be in the right, then it almost
makes him look like, no, no, no, he's just really good at this. He knew that was the
right decision to just get out of Dodge. Yes, you're right. And I'm sorry for no, no,
but in you and contradicting you there. Well, I think the thing I'm asking for there is
that Leia says, yeah, because Leia says this will cause me trouble, but we actually never
see that problem. Exactly. Like, that's not in the book. Exactly. Like, it doesn't lead
to a problem. It probably should, but anyway, the point is that characters in this book
are like really smart. All of them are really smart. It's not just Thrawn. Everyone has
had like two points put into their IQ stat. That just appears to be how Timothy Zahn likes
to create conflict in these stories. I, and I think it works for one thing. I like the
fact that we have these competent characters. It's enjoyable to see characters be competent,
you know, especially like the naval battle at the end. They come up with these tactics
to confront Thrawn's strategies. And I think that there is a coherent theme throughout
the book of the plucky rebels being good at tactics, but losing out in terms of strategy.
And there is a difference between those things, but they are just like, just smarter than
I remembered them being in the movies. And I think that might be one of the few things
that someone could get turned off on. I think someone could pick up on this point. Well,
this doesn't feel quite like Han Solo, but then I do then think that's why Zahn did
a very clever decision of setting this five years later. Cause I think that then gives
you that kind of in universe flex just to let you kind of go, Oh, it's a stretch, but
it's a little stretch. And it could have happened in that time gap. Yeah. They all just got
a bit wiser. They fought with the war for an extra five years, especially say Luke,
for example, Luke in return of a Jedi is a tricky character because a lot of the stuff
he does, um, it's kind of set up as a twist. When he shows up at the beginning, you're
not supposed to know whether or not he's fallen to the dark side or not. The way in which
he's dressed, he's all in black. He's quite spooky. He's force choking people. That's
all stuff which is to lead you to believe that, Oh, something's different about Luke.
He's not behaving the way he was last time. And he's also a much wiser character. He's,
he is a true Jedi Knight at that point. And what a Jedi Knight is in this point in the
history of star Wars, it's kind of nebulous. Like in this book, they never used the word
Sith. Like that's not a part of common star Wars parlance. Even though if you go back,
that was supposed to be in the original star Wars title crawl, the word Sith. They're referred
to as dark Jedi in this book. That's absolutely right. In fact, I can throw in a little trivia
in here. Who are what species is Thrawn's elite death squad soldiers made up of? Oh,
fuck. I don't remember if it's on my head. I'm sorry. They're Nugoshi. Now you're messing
with my pronunciation. Noghri? I'm sure you're right Duncan. I'm sure you're right. Noghri,
that sounds fine by me. Well, when Zahn came to write this, he actually originally wanted
to call that species the Sith. He thought Darth Vader was the Lord of the Sith. So the
Sith had to be a people somewhere. I see. And that was his original. That's how we genuinely
interpreted it. And George Lucas had to step in and be like, no, that's, that's not what
I meant. And Zahn was like, well, you did not make that clear at any point. There's
something similar actually in regards to the Clone Wars, but we'll get back to that later.
Sure. You can see it's not fully formed. I think at this point, the Jedi are left. Well,
I think there's two ways you can read it. One is the idea of the Jedi, you know, the
very concept of Jedi is nebulous. But also it's the idea that Luke is trying to kind
of rediscover, you know, the Empire wiped out what they are. He is trying to learn for
himself and rediscover what the Jedi were and what he should be. I wish Rey had been
permitted to do this if I would have been so much more interesting. But yes, absolutely
there are these points in the story where he has to go, Ooh, should a Jedi do this?
I'm going to do it anyway, but I feel like I'm kind of pushing a line here, but like
whatever I got to do it. Really nicely done. And I think Luke maybe doesn't get the most
in this first book in the trilogy, in my opinion. I think he's definitely, he's just kind of
building up to his more defining moral, ethical judgments later on. But he swings his lightsaber
around as he has a chat with Ben and he goes off on his own little adventure. Yeah, he
does an adventure which keeps loop de looping in with Han and Leia because the galaxy is
four meters wide in this book. Oh, it's when they both simultaneously show up to Lando's.
They both show up by coincidence to different locations like three times. Well, I don't
know why I want to take this. On the one hand, I want to jump on a meant talk about Lando
in this book. This is the start of a great thing that Lando does throughout the whole
of the New Republic era Star Wars novels. And that in every, well, I'm saying it again,
go and listen to our lore dump episode on Dark Empire. Lando has a new business in like
every CA. It's like Brad Pitt in Ocean's Eleven. It's like everything you cut back
to him, he's just doing something different. And this game, it's an extremely confusing
mining operation. As I understand it, it's a mining operation that can only operate on
like the dark side of a planet. So it's a mobile mining platform that has to like keep
moving to stay in the shade because it's too close to the sun. And I like that. That's
a cool idea. But it's Imperial Walkers. Like it's a mining facility sat on the back of
like numerous Imperial Walkers, which is cool. I love walking cities. How slowly is this
planet rotating? Those things are like four miles per hour. I mean, I thought that. I
can only imagine that he's, you know, his engineers have got in there. They're speeding
up like a boom, boom, boom, boom. They're at a pleasant jog. Are they all in step? Does
it up rise and fall? These are the major questions. It's one of the things where like I love some
of the Star Wars aesthetic in this book. Or most of the books of Star Wars aesthetic.
This is the one moment that I just went, it could have just been on tracks or like it
didn't need to be the Walkers. Yeah, the last place we saw him was in Cloud City, a flying
city. Why didn't he make it get another flying city? I'm sure there's some deep lore science
mumbo jumbo out there that could answer that question. But the character of Lando, Lando
is off kind of an odd place in the society. Because he's not a member of the original
team. No, he comes in late. He starts. He's a bit of a villain. Then he's on their side.
Yeah, exactly. He gets his big hurrah because he gets to destroy the second Death Star.
And that's great. But you're right. He's only a hero in the final movie. Up till then, he's
an antagonist or at least until like the last 10 minutes of the second one. And as a result,
I think he's a character that I think you could serve well as a Star Wars writer.
He must be someone it's a treat to use because he has a lot of the same roguish charisma
as Han and he Han's obviously like one of the most popular characters. But you also
you don't have to tie him down to having a concrete arc. Lando's arc is he joins the
good guys. But Han Solo did that in episode in the first movie. So from there, he gets
to have other arcs like forwarding and love and becoming a general. And well, that's
it. Those are the two things. But that means that Lando is still out there learning, changing,
growing. So you can have your fun at having him be a playboy who's started to get involved
in being a part of the New Republic. And to have that sort of seat there where you know,
his story arc like with Han. Han and Leia together. That's good. Luke, he's a Jedi.
I'm sure he won't have a romance anytime. That makes sense. Everyone knows that Jedi
are all celibate. That was definitely a rule that had been established right from the get
go and was invented during episode two in order to create a forbidden romance between
Anakin Skywalker and his old babysitter. I've never had Padme described that way before.
Yes, that is her role in episode one. When you watch episode one, what? Very strange.
Very strange, George. George. Anakin didn't have to be that young, but the actor did a
decent job anyway. Can you imagine Luke like finding that that line in the ancient text
years later and just going oops, oops, Ben, you didn't tell me. Actually, I'm going to
then just like I'm going to leap in on one thing before we go. I actually I have seen
the behind the scenes footage from The Empire Strikes Back. Not The Empire Strikes Back,
The Phantom Menace. And I'm going to say this. I saw the auditions for numerous child actors
and Jake Lloyd was definitely the best actor out of all those kids. Good. Yes. I liked
him in that film. I just disagree with the creative decision to have Anakin appear so
young. I don't like the fact that I also don't like the fact that he's in that room and I'm
not going to revise history by saying that I like him in the role because I don't, but
it's not his fault. He was a child and everything that happened afterwards is very sad. But
you're right. Anakin should have been like 15 years old, not 10 years old. That's a much
better age to do it because then you can have him be plucky, make him be younger than Luke,
make him be angsty, make him be rebellious so that he can butt heads with Obi-Wan in
a much more interesting way. Like when he's brashest in Attack of the Clones, it's frustrating
because you want him to be a Jedi Knight and you don't understand why he would be trusted
with any mission at all because he should have grown out of it. So if you establish
him as plucky and rebellious and angsty in the first one, and then you can have him grow
up a little bit in the next one so that there are still the seeds of the prior angstiness
that can emerge later in moments of like high stress, for example. Anyway, it's too late
to fix the Star Wars prequels and we should all stop trying to think about it.
Oh, but that just worked so well and they would have filled into what Uncle Owen says,
you know, because it could then actually have him be like, I'm going, I have wanderlust.
And everyone else be like, no, say, you know, actually what they set up in the original
show. Anyway, you're right. So that is the Empire. So that's our old characters, the
established cast.
No, hang on, hang on. We can't just ignore Leia, even though the book does for the most
part.
Okay, I don't want to be mean. So Leia gets a fair share of the... So Leia is meant to
be the ambassador. She is the political mind of the team and of the New Republic. She's
meant to show a level of levelheadedness and just general political suave to help get factions
onside. That is what she does best.
She's not...
Is that portrayed in this book?
She's not really given a chance to do that in this book. Part of what's complicated about
it is that sort of the whole point is that her progress as a character is being forestalled
by a bunch of stuff. So she's not allowed to train as a Jedi because she needs to do
politics. And to be honest, that makes sense from Timothy Zahn's perspective. You don't
want to reinvent Leia completely and have her, now she's a Jedi, now she's behaving
like Luke. You want her to keep the traits that people liked in her from the previous
things. So you want to have her be a gunslinger. You want to have her be the politically minded
one because she is a princess and an ambassador. So you want to keep that stuff. But you've
also decided that of course the Empire wants those Jedi twins that she's going to have.
So now she's a bit of a...
I'm not going to call her complete damsel. She is being escorted around and she's being
kept safe by all the other male characters. She is still independent and feisty and she
does a judo throw at one point. But yes, she doesn't really get to strut her stuff. She's
put off to the side and that's disappointing because I would like more Leia in this book.
I am going to say obviously I have the benefit of having the benefit. Maybe not. Having read
the whole trilogy, these are complaints that do get well and truly addressed I feel later
on. It's just in this first novel with so much going on and new characters being brought
in, Leia is just left to be in the background.
I'm going to say something really surprising I noticed and I kept waiting for this to be
brought up. So for one thing, Luke makes Leia a lightsaber in this. This is done without
any ceremony. So I guess at this point they hadn't decided that lightsabers were sort
of spiritually important thing for a Jedi to make. It's just like, yeah, I can knock
one of those out. It genuinely is said so casually. But I don't believe we're ever
told what colour it is. And I was really surprised by that. Like you'd think that would be your
kid reading this book in 1993. You love to play Star Wars with your friends and one of
you wants to play the role of Princess Leia. Of course you want to know what colour the
lightsaber is so you can have your little bamboo stick sword fights.
I'll be honest, actually I think so I've read the convict adaptation of this and I know
what colour they pick there. You've actually taken me back by now thinking through this
book and going, do they not say? No, they don't say. They genuinely don't. To be fair,
they also don't say what Luke's lightsaber is. They only say it once right towards the
end. So maybe that's just something he was not interested in writing or maybe he found
it like almost embarrassing to like mention what colour it is, like as though that's important
and maybe he didn't think it is, but it absolutely is. Because the reader of this book wants
to know because they want to imagine it and they want to paint a picture in their head
and the colour of lightsabers is something that people fixate on.
I can definitely see both sides of this. I can see where Zahn as a writer would think,
does it matter? Does it affect my plot? It's just a lightsaber, they are swinging it. And
I completely agree with you. A young kid reading this wants to know because that's what we
were excited about. Did you have a blue one or a green one? Or a grown man? Do you know
what they don't have? Enough just, I think there should be more white lightsabers.
I agree. I think, I mean, I'm not totally, I'm not one of those guys like we should have
1800 different colours and they should all be assigned to someone based on their role.
You have a yellow one if you do this role because you're a Jedi guardian. No, they should
pick the colours they like. But yes, a white lightsaber would look cool. Duncan, what colour
is it? I need to know what colour is a lightsaber. I think they make it blue. I figured that
was the case. That's what I was imagining. I think there was definitely an element of,
I think it's like the master has the green. She had a blue. They only really came in two
colours. They had two different colours. At this point. I mean, there were supposed to
only be two colours. There was supposed to be blue and they were supposed to be red.
But during Return of the Jedi, they're like, oh shit, this just does not work for this
scene. We can't see his lightsaber against the blue sky. We have to make it green. Well,
that's how these decisions get made to hell with all the law. If you want to know, by
the way, you talk about like mysticism and creating a lightsaber, if I'm not mistaken,
in shadows of the empire, Lucas literally sat in like Ben's hut over like a small oven
trying to cook up his new lightsaber crystal. It's, it's weird stuff. I wonder if the kyber
crystal had been made into the source of a lightsaber's power yet, or if it was still
this nebulous thing, which George Lucas hadn't decided what it did yet. I mean, other than
the kyber crystal is business of the mind's eye. I don't think they've been referenced
unless they're in the novelizations of the movies. I'll leave that on the table, but
I don't know. It's certainly not explicit in this book, Duncan. I feel like the direction
you've been pushing in for a little while, though I keep distracting you is you want
to talk about the new characters and aside from Thrawn. Yes, I do. Because as I said,
we get so many of them. And I think it's what made this book such a good launching point.
So many of these characters come back throughout so many other content. If anything, this is
almost the cast. Very few new characters get added and stick around after these books.
And for Timothy Zahn, as a writer to be picking up Star Wars, I think his decision to create
so many new characters and give them so much focus and development is what made this work
and this great. Yes, that's and it's interesting to me. So I write fan fiction in my spare
time. I'm not going to give any more details. I'm pretty sure I did say what it is on a
previous podcast, but you're going to have to find that if you want to find out what
fan fix I write. But I noticed something surprising, which is that when I was reading fanfics as
a kid, I was like 13 years old and I was reading Naruto fan fiction. I remember not liking
when authors create their OCs because it's embarrassing to read someone's deviant art
addition to the Naruto universe. And I feel like that is a serious thing which Star Wars
writers must be wary about. You're creating these new characters who are just as cool
as the original trilogy characters, right guys? I've got my totally badass space assassin
character I want to fit in. And something I noticed recently, I wrote, I was writing
chapters and I got a comment from one of my readers and he was saying, I wish you did
more with the new characters you've invented for this story. I have to write in new characters
who weren't part of the original canon to make certain scenes work. And I was extremely
surprised that readers wanted more of these characters and not just ones that existed
in the original canon. They were actually connecting with them and they wanted them
to be more part of the story. And that is what is happening with Mara Jade in particular.
That must be the most, the greatest compliment you could possibly get out of your fanfic.
Like someone just going, do you know what, the bits that aren't from the original work,
mate, that's the hot stuff. I basically have like two long projects I've written. One of
them is published at the time of recording this episode. I'm writing the final chapter
for the second one currently, so it's about to be over. And the first time I wrote it,
I wrote a bunch of side characters because basically the characters went to a different
location. Their friends are not around. I need to write new people. And I was so conscious
of the fact that I didn't want people to get annoyed by these characters that I put so
much emphasis into saying, I want these to be characters. People can be like, okay, they're
there. They're unobtrusive. They are frustrating at times because they get in the way. They
are not his cool OCs he actually wants to write this story about. Moving on. I know
why people liked those characters. I'm really surprised by the fact that people want more
from these side characters who I introduced to fill out scenes. That's baffling, but I'm
glad they like them.
So let's talk about these new characters. I'm not going to jump straight to Mara Jade.
I'm going to leave her to the back.
Fair enough.
I want to talk about some that maybe don't do a lot in this story, but gets potentially
some quite expansive roles further down the line. Captain Pellaeon.
I'm surprised to hear that he's going to be expanded further on. My assumption is that
he is exploded in the third book and then he's gone.
Geordi, spoilers for all of the new Republic. I apologize. She can not listen for 20 seconds.
You're talking about Grand Commander General Pellaeon, ruler of the remaining empire.
That's genuinely quite baffling. When we were talking about new characters, I was not expecting
you to mention him.
I love him. He's amazing. He's just this guy who's always second in command and then
just doesn't die and then just naturally rises to the highest ranks of power by just
being alive.
That's funny. Okay. I can see why you want to bring him up now. That is amusing because
yeah, his job is to be a perspective character. He gives us insight into Thrawn. He doesn't
give that many commands himself. He provides commentary and he provides perspective on
the character I assumed you were going to talk about, Joruus C’baoth.
Yes. Let's talk about Joruus C’baoth. Joruus C’baoth is a Jedi Knight, or is he, that Thrawn
finds at the start of this novel.
A dark Jedi because we're not allowed to use the word Sith because we don't know what
it means.
Also note, Jedi apprentice. There is no padawan.
That's fair. The word padawan is a little silly.
My, my young padawan. Right. Yes. He is introduced. Thrawn goes to get him because one, he's
protecting some equipment Thrawn wants and two, Thrawn thinks he can use a bit of Jedi
power in the back.
Yes. Very surprised to see him show up. I should have known better and when he did show
up, I was like, Oh, okay. Because the thing that they will not stop talking about whenever
Joruus C’baoth is around is outbound flight.
I did not know that this was something that had to be set up earlier. I assumed that he
had a novel new idea, but it made all of that book I read in my own time make so much more
sense when I was like, I need to fill in the gaps. And clearly Timothy Zahn wrote that
book purely because he was like, the prequels are happening. New content is being added.
I need to jump in as fast as I can to make sure that Thrawn is not decanonized. I need
to make sure that he fits into the world perfectly. So I'm going to write his origin and Joram
C'baoth is going to be there. And all of the details I mentioned about it are going to
be in the book and Obi-Wan Kenobi is going to be there for some reason, even though it
makes even less sense why he's there for a bit when you read this book.
So I've actually not read outbound flight. So I know even less about this than Geordi
does. Very rare reversal for Star Wars. In this book, he definitely is there to explore
the dark side and dark powers. We get a look at what someone who wants to use the force
for control looks like. We also get a site into a dark Jedi who is not trying to rule
the Empire. And something that Thrawn really observes is that when he rocks up, he's the
king. Dark Jedi, they want personal power, but not all of them are as optimistic as galactic
conquest. He's very happy just ruling his little bit of turf.
That's right. Joram doesn't have a lot to do in this book, so I don't think we end up
talking about him for too long. It's merely quite amusing that this bizarre character
who I was constantly like, why the fuck is this guy here in outbound flight? He doesn't
feel like a Jedi at all. That's why, because you need to set up this villain for a book
that came out like 15 years beforehand. What I would-
However- Geordi, go for it.
I assume you're about to talk about the same thing, which is that what he is there to do,
which is interesting, is that this is Timothy Zahn's assumption about what a clone war is.
Yes it is. This is my favourite bit of retconning that goes on within the old Star Wars universe,
the clone wars. There was an assumption about the clone wars, which George Lucas, in many
respects, intentionally subverted. He let these writers go on under this assumption
so that he could have some form of pull the rug out moment, I think, later on. Or he just
changed his mind on the spur of the moment and went fuck it.
I think, somewhere between the two, I think the truth lies. So the clone war, according
to Timothy Zahn, and I guess other writers of the era, the clones that were mentioned
were cloned Jedi. Am I wrong?
They included cloned Jedi. It was a collective of just clone masters and a clone army fighting
the Republic. They were the enemies, they were the aggressors in the past.
Which makes so much sense. And people talk about this all the time, back when talking
about fixing the prequels was a hot topic. The clones should be the bad guys, because
you want the losses on the side of the good guys to matter. You want that to be volunteers,
people who enlist to fight for the good. You want it to be heroic, fighting against the
evil faceless armies. Except the evil faceless army is fighting for the good guys in the
prequels.
Against an evil, more faceless army. Now, the clone wars, as they got developed, particularly
in the Clone Wars animated TV show, just about swing back around to working. But it certainly
makes a lot more sense to me where these initial assumptions laid. And I'm not going to lie,
the amount of work that Timothy Zahn did down the line to make his clone wars and the actual
clone wars match up. God that man. He had his work cut out.
He must have been so delighted when the forced unleashed video games came out and was like,
thank God, someone agrees with me, clone the Jedi, yes!
Exactly, but it's an interesting look at cloning. The idea is that there are these Spartae cloning
tanks in this book. And this is meant to be Thrawn's Trump- are they not? Or, Sodator?
Maybe a very- maybe in the next one. Maybe that was in Dark Empire.
No, that might be in Dark Forces, the next one. I do struggle- I'm going to say this
now, Geordie. I've read this trilogy and I've actually started reading a bit of Dark Forces
since finishing this book. Because I always read this as a set. So I do actually struggle
to differentiate- it's like Lord of the Rings. Okay, no, not like Lord of the Rings. Take
my back. In the sense that it's very much one story that is in three volumes.
Right, like say, Lord of the Rings movies where they're all filmed together, or the
second and third Matrix movies. Yes, that's right.
He completely has no idea what I'm talking about. He's never seen the third Matrix movie,
has he? It's also The Dark Force Rising, Before People
Jump on Me, is the second book. Okay.
Yes, and I have seen the third one, I haven't seen the fourth one.
Oh, never have I. I keep forgetting it exists. Okay, so, Joram Taken Care of. Actually, nope,
I'm going to jump on this because this was quite funny.
So whilst I was reading my physical book, and a book which I lost, I cannot find it
anywhere and I had to buy this book a second time on Kindle. So not only did I have to
read a Star Wars book, I had to read it, I had to buy it twice. My first copy was full
of syntax errors. Really bizarre stuff. This book came out over 30 years ago and I am finding
syntax errors. There are missing punctuation marks, there are missing commas, there are
questions which are written as a question and don't have a question mark at the end.
There at one point was a bit where there was no paragraph breaks in between places where
perspective changed, whole scenes changed. I had Duncan go look at his own book and there
is a paragraph break in his book. So, this latest printing by Disney is full of obvious
mistakes and frankly, it's kind of bizarre that this would even be in such shoddy condition
considering that it is a 30 year old book with numerous editions.
I'm actually shocked to hear about this. So my edition is the 97 edition. So this came
out just before the prequels would have hit cinemas. So a little bit of the way through
most of New Republic's been written. And you're right, I don't understand how errors that
didn't exist in a prior publication, because I've actually checked errors that Geordie
found against my copy and they're not in my copy. It's almost as if someone, they lost
like the original type and someone had to simply sit down on a laptop, read the book
and retype it and then just got careless. That's the only way I can get how this happened.
It's possible that they had a PDF version and the scan didn't go through properly and
they had to like make manual adjustments but or maybe it was made by AI. Maybe they plugged
in the text of a book into an AI and said, all right, reformat it to a new edition and
it made mistakes. I don't know. But it's a higher proofreader. You're Disney. Yeah, it
will tell them like two days. If that's also I want to say one more thing. The front
cover of my book, I really like. I think it's a great front cover. It has made us some cheap
material. It was sitting in my bag for like a week going when I was going to work and
it was extremely damaged at the end of a week. Just for the record, my 97 edition still looking
good. So there we go. Those are my complaints. I brought it up because amusingly, I was so
used to catching these mistakes that I sent a text to Duncan at one point being like, I
don't believe how many mistakes there are in this. They even misspelt one of the characters
names and then I immediately sent back saying like, oh wait, no, that was on purpose. My
bad. Oh, you just you wait until we get to Luke or should I say Luke? Okay, now I'm very
confused but moving on. Are there any other special characters you want to talk about
before Mara Jade? Yes, there is. And that is our new criminal. I don't know what you call
it. Not mastermind, just gangster leader. Yeah, mob boss, gangster leader, smuggler.
Kaarde and he has a ship called the wild card, which is great. Good theming. I like
it. I mean, it's very much set up in this story that this is one the guys that kind
of sprung up and came in after the death of the hut. A little bit wobbly, maybe in the
full expanded universe. There are a lot of other huts out there, but yeah, he comes into
it and I really like this character because at the start of the story, he is trying to
be Mr. Neutral. He is in many ways almost a little bit early Han Solo again. You're
getting a guy he doesn't get fully involved, but you know, for a paycheque. He's willing
to do business. Absolutely. Yeah, this is a sort of character where if Han had never
met Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker in a couple of years time, like how much time has passed
since the battle of Yavin, like eight years. So maybe in a little over eight years, this
is someone who Han could have turned into. He levelled up from being a smuggler himself.
He got like a circle of cronies. He became a crime boss. This is sort of a little glance
of what he could have been, but also he's a really interesting character to follow for
a couple of reasons. For one thing, he represents this figure of power. He's a dangerous man
but he's engaging and even kind of nice. Like he's kind of gentle. You can tell that like
he treats his employees well and he's forgiving and seems very reasonable. Like he tases Luke
and locks him up, but then he's very nice to him. He's like, listen, I'm sorry that
we had to do all this. It's just business. So it was nice to see. It's nice to see like
why people follow these leaders. If one guy is too much of an arse or you do just think,
why doesn't just one of his cronies just put one blaster bolt in the back? Yeah. This guy
feels like a character who could come straight out of the expanse. He really feels lived
in. He represents this like underbelly of space society, but it's convincing. You know,
he's not just a caricature. It feels like he is the focal point for a crew. Like this
is someone you believe people would follow. It's someone who you believe isn't just
sadistic. He's not being evil for kicks. He's a good person, but he's also willing to walk
whatever side of the law he has to, to keep his people safe. Yeah, exactly. And that's
and the conflict is that he almost has more agency than anyone else in the entire story
because he's the guy who has to decide between Republic and Empire. And he was walking so
steadily down this middle line where he's thinking really clearly about things like
long term impact or like short term gain by going to the Empire, but the Republic's going
to win and I'm going to keep walking down the central path and I'm not going to choose
sides until I see which way the wind's turning. And at a certain point you watch those principles
like break out from under him because he's going to lose and he's forced to choose a
side and that's a really engaging moment of indecision. Again, it's just that fleshing
out the world. Like I do really feel this character, this original character, I'm so
happy he was never made like a background character from Return of the Jedi. You know,
this is something you see quite a lot later on where they just pick random individuals
from the background and go up. That was a Bobi Fento. He was secretly doing all of this
and you're like, huh, it wasn't Boba Fett. Yeah, like the droid who explodes when it
goes in front of R2-D2. There's a whole comic book where he's actually a force sensitive
droid and he learned to be force sensitive so he didn't spill drinks in Jabba's palace
and he deliberately exploded himself in order for R2-D2 to be picked up by Luke instead
of him because that was the will of the force. Yeah, like that. Like that. I do think that
may have not been canon to start with, but yes, that story was written. There's another
one where you know the droid that's torturing other droids in Jabba's palace like dungeons?
Oh yeah. That droid is one that apparently is just a sadistic droid that likes hurting
other droids and Lando nearly arrested him on Cloud City but he got away and between
scenes in Jabba's palace just before the sail barge leaves, Lando goes back and they have
like a standoff. Of course. That's so stupid. Oh fucking Star Wars. This is why sometimes
it's like yeah it was a good thing that Disney hit a race on a lot of that bullshit but also
we miss out on stuff like this. Let's keep talking. I think it's time we talked about
Mara Jade. Mara Jade. Interesting enough, I've just said that it's so good they don't
pick random background and announce that they were a complex character the whole time. Mara
Jade's a bit interesting because we get told in this book that she was one of the dancing
girls in Jabba's palace. Very strange. She's not. There's no person of her description
in the scene at all. There are no hot redheads. Just sounds almost just like I can say this,
the film's not been in cinemas for 10 years. VHS is only just coming out. No one knows.
And they're pretty low res. You can squint at the smudges in the background all you like.
They aren't yet being hidden behind a horrifying CGI alien singer yet. So we get that background
to Mara Jade but yes we're introduced to her. Now this character, one of my favourites of
the expanded universe and I think that's true for a lot of people. Mara Jade is introduced
as one of the cronies in Card's crew and she has so much kind of extra depth that we get
sort of lightly inferred to and then we slowly get revealed as the story progresses. One
thing we know very early on is that she hates Luke Skywalker. She wants to. What? Not our
Luke. Who could hate him? He saved the galaxy. He destroyed the Death Star, killed the Emperor
and it's really nice because you get this moment throughout the early bit of the book
going why? Han Solo? You'd get. You come up with a hundred reasons. Yeah a lot of enemies.
He's burned leather. Went south on a deal. Whatever. You're like what did Luke do to
you? How could he have done something to you? He went from innocent farm boy to hero. Could
she be one of the two hundred thousand families who lost someone on the Death Star? Never
addressed. Thank you very much. Mara Jade is a standout for a lot of reasons and it's
really surprising that the character works because I was really prepared to be like okay
I know this is a like famous character. Can she live up to the reputation she's garnered?
Like people were very specifically annoyed that this character was erased by Disney wiping
out legends. People specifically said no no no no no. Now we're losing this character.
So why is she so significant? Now one of those reasons is that she's a hot redhead. Good
reason. And as a man who likes hot redheads, that is a good reason. We need them. I would
surely miss a hot redhead that I was invested in if they suddenly vanished off the face
of the earth. However, surely there has to be more to it than that. And I was really
surprised in this first book how restrained it is because I knew what her backstory was
more or less from like I don't know a YouTube video I saw ten years ago explaining who Mara
Jade is in five minutes or less. And it wasn't like as typically DeviantArt OC edgy background
as I expected. It wasn't like say the post or the mid prequel comic books about Darth
Maul's origin way so gnarly and dark and edgy and cool man. That's what I was expecting
and that's not what I got. Now I think the character is I don't say lacks at least what
we see here. So Mara Jade's backstory is that she was one of the Emperor's hand. This
she was the spy, the assassin. There's in a bit where Luke's like you worked for Vader
and she's like excuse me I worked for the Emperor. Do not insult me. And I think what's
nice is that there's something a little bit like when she talks about time in the Empire
she's really kind of I get a very kind of clinical vibe. She wasn't Darth Vader. She
wasn't oozing evil. She was just like they've given me a job. I'm appreciative that I have
a place in society and I do my job well. You know I don't think about the wider evil context
of my organisation and that's why she's angry at Luke because he got rid of that. That structure
and that world and I think that's a really nice insight when we do talk about you know
the fall of the Empire is the fact that well it had structure and sometimes lawful evil
over chaotic good. Some people like to know what's happening tomorrow.
Yeah the appeal of fascism in and of itself is that it's a strong arm. That's what people
like about it. That's why people fall for it. They're seduced by it because it provides
simple answers to complex questions. What I like about Mara Jade's character and I love
the fact that this is completely unstated. You just read into it through the way in which
characters behave which is the fact that Mara Jade was extremely loyal to the Emperor so
much so that she wants to get revenge against Luke for destroying him. It doesn't matter
if it was actually Vader who did it. He's the one who brought him down so he needs to
pay but she doesn't pull the trigger when she has him because what matters is not actually
the connection between her and the Emperor. It's not like they had like a close relationship
is to be understood. It's the fact that he disrupted her life. Mara Jade has a new life.
Mara Jade is part of the wild card crew. She works for card and she is so obviously unswervingly
loyal and it's really interesting that the primary attribute of your one of your principal
antagonists in this story and make no mistake she's absolutely the one of the antagonists.
She is of immense personal threat to Luke is the trait of loyalty. Loyalty is one of
the most commendable traits we recognize in heroes. It's one of the things we like most
about Luke. The fact that Luke is loyal to his friends and so the reflection of that
in this antagonist means that we have this thing to latch on to. It's never stated like
Mara Jade needs a leader to follow and without that she would fall apart. We just see the
way in which she's given orders. She grinds her teeth. She complains and then she does
it and it just has to be shown. It doesn't have to be told to us and that's impressive.
So that's very good writing then from this Star Wars tie in novel. That's good writing.
Yes stop pointing out the fact that I'm enjoying a Star Wars book Duncan. It's not going to
happen again. Oh it's going to happen so many more times over and you're right and I really
enjoy that too. I think we see and I said you talk about her loyalty you also see the
fact that she doesn't pull the trigger and that although she kind of screams and shouts
at Luke you also see at least this is how I read into it. She kind of knows that her
anger really isn't for this just this one man. I often get the impression that it was
easy to hate Luke when Luke was just this idea of someone like she wasn't hunting Luke.
She's just like I just need to hate a face. I can't just hate the rebellion or the new
republic. I just need to pick a face to hate and when she finally gets it she's like oh
you're just why aren't you everything I've hated you to be. This is a tricky thing. This
is really tricky to talk about because now we are arriving at the reason why I don't
like talking about Star Wars which is that I have to acknowledge the fact that Star Wars
fans exists and I fucking hate fans of Star Wars. But we do a podcast anyway. We do a
podcast anyway. The reason why I don't like fans of Star Wars is they are the whiniest
motherfuckers on the planet. They constantly go on and on in their little subreddits and
harass actors and creative roles and go on these fucking disgusting tirades and I
know it's not all of them but it's so obviously this collective of place where people cannot
just enjoy children's content. They need to turn it into this prolonged campaign of
their own personal frustrations against the way in which society works and that has to
be channelled through the medium of Star Wars of all things. You can't just accept that
a bad movie happened. You can't just move on from that. And here's the problem I have.
The fact is I much prefer the depiction of Luke Skywalker in this to his depiction in
the modern movies and unfortunately in saying that I now sound like a fucking fascist.
Right. Okay. Stepping back into the room people. As George has expressed you're right there
is some incredibly naughty I want I don't really want to use the word subset because
they are very vocal group of Star Wars fans that push a lot of weird external politics
onto this franchise which is just not there and they use it as a tool to talk about real
world stuff in a bizarre way. But one of the core complaints and one of the reasons to
be honest I got into the expanded legends EU long time ago is because I heard a lot
of complaints about the new Star Wars movies. I think if I'm not mistaken it was after the
last Jedi that I first went out and read. I believe it was an edge to the Empire about
edge to the Empire at the same time I also bought the Han Solo prequel book Paradise
Snare and one just so happened to arrive before the others I read that first but I wanted
to understand what did they do so different and reading this I was very much on their
side I was like yeah I can see why this is more appealing because you're getting to see
your hero be heroic. Yeah obviously that's nice but also seems to go through challenge
it's still his story and his story of growth and development but he is still embodies all
of the same elements that we see him achieve he's still on his high from the last movie
we saw him this is a continuation and expansion on the character whereas on the projectory
we last saw him take off on whereas I do feel with the sequel stuff it is definitely an
expansion and a development of the character it's just not the projectory we left him on
and it does leave you going yeah what why? Yeah so and the answer to that for why is
is that by having Luke step away and deny the call of heroism by confronting our expectation
that he was going to step in he was going to help Rey learn how to be a Jedi by taking
away from that role we sent to the story instead on Rey who is our main character obviously
we wanted to be focused on our main character it did not escape my notice but a huge subset
of those same fans they want Luke to step back in you know however many years later
it is like 30 something years and just become the hero again just take over and just push
all these other characters to the side it's about Luke now and that shouldn't be the
case if you're writing a story about Finn you're writing a story about Rey and you're
writing about Poe it should be about them so obviously you need to sideline those characters
and the way you're doing that is you're killing them off or you're having Leia be the one
who sends them on missions or she's asleep throughout the movie you set them to the side
and what that means is you have a bunch of fans who want this to be the movie they liked
this book and they want this to be the principal story that gets told and the great thing is
this book still exists we're doing a podcast episode about it I had never read any Star
Wars book I had read I've read a grand total of three Star Wars books this is the third
one and I'm enjoying this one it still exists you can just read it.
It's this weird dichotomy where I deal with some people talking about oh they decanonised
it or the legends so it like never happened I'm like mate Star Wars never happened it
doesn't matter it's still there it is just as real as it ever is.
Don't sweat it enjoy it we still have it and also this is the positive of the medium this
is why books are so great because they don't have budgets you know you can have thousands
of starships on screen just as cheaply as you can have none and your characters can
be any age you don't have to worry and the actors can always be in their peak moments
and Luke gets to be the hero because why wouldn't he be.
Anyway I'm sorry that we weren't in that extended round but this is why I don't like
talking about Star Wars books.
But then let's just remember why we are talking about it because I think this is just a good
book in and of itself.
Geordie here's a question for you hypothetical you got imagine a world and this is actually
going to be incredibly challenging can you imagine a world where this was book was just
handed to you and you hadn't seen the films.
That's a good question this book would make no sense.
I personally think you're absolutely right they give that and it's a safe assumption
but you're right this isn't quite stand alone.
No not at all I mean it's not supposed to be standalone it was never written to be and
a book standing by itself is not necessarily the highest mark of quality it's totally fine
to be connected to a wider work.
I do think that that's going to be an issue in the future of Star Wars knowing how confusing
and bloated it gets.
Just last year you took us on an exploration of Dark Empire and that's like the follow
up to this that was came out like what a couple of years later or even like a year later at
the same time.
No I think we're talking a matter of months.
And you talk about how in that Leia is pregnant again and there's like a Sith prophecy focused
on that child and you're being like because he didn't know that Leia was pregnant in another
book series that was coming out and he should have just focused on those kids that already
existed.
Go back and listen to the Dark Empire there is so much to unpack there but you're right
it is confused confusing and it's because of the interlinked nature I think what's really
good to say there about Heir to the Empire.
So yeah that question was actually to lead me into this point.
You're right you do need to watch the original trilogy obviously to read this book but you
only need to watch the original trilogy in order to read this book.
That's right exactly.
And it does and I don't think even though I have read so many more expanding universe
books you've read outbound flights and maybe you might slightly change your mind on this
but this book was written intended and still stands as just the next step.
You have finished Return of the Jedi you need nothing else and this is the next powerful
step.
Chronologically it's not there's like 10 books between Return of the Jedi and this.
The X-Wing books right.
Yes X-Wing they're to be honest great series Michael Sackville great author love the guy.
Are they all just about Wedge Antilles?
So there's an original character called Corrin Horn who appears in those books and he actually
appears in later Simpsons own books but you're right Wedge Antilles is the wing commander
and Corrin Horn is the is the maverick of the group.
Now I was going to say that something I've never understood about the wider Star Wars
universe is how obsessed people are with the character of Wedge Antilles because when I
was watching the Star Wars movies as a kid I had no idea that he existed.
I had no idea that this guy was at multiple destructions of various death stars.
I didn't care I didn't pay attention but people love this guy for some reason.
Wedge Antilles and he appears in this book is just the go to.
He's quite good in this book.
He's just the he's the other rebel if there needs to be a rebel soldier that isn't the
main heroes it's always Wedge that's who he is but you're right he has his own books
using the X-Wing which actually are really good books showing you characters that don't
have that sort of plot shield of like the big four big five no big four and so that
is really thrilling and but there's also books like Trisha Baccarat where you see what did
Luke do literally the day after he woke up from his Ewok hangover.
Don't you want to know?
Geordie, Han and Leah, they're married in this book.
We don't get to see the wedding, don't you want a book to show you that?
No. No I don't. What are you talking about? That's insane.
Another good thing that Timmy Zahn does in this book, and I really can't keep praising
I think going through the characters is the best way to show what Zahn does so well but
he does just make loads of other creative decisions which I think are really healthy
for doing this very challenging thing expanding and established work he does that time gap
I said before it's good because it like elasticates where the characters can be but also just
gives him just breathing room in general we're back we're on Coruscant by the way Geordi
first time Coruscant ever named or referenced.
That's fascinating.
Zahn created it.
In fact there's quite a few things.
And it's not described as a city sized city that covers a planet it's just a planet.
Yeah it is I believe it has Imperial City on it potentially at this point.
It does become I think a city wide planet in the books before the prequels but not here.
There's the other bits of technology as well.
There's the vibro-blades.
Yep it's a surprise to see that invented here.
No it was this is it this is where they were invented.
Wow there we go.
This is the little not lightsaber knives that you see I think in the Mandalorian we see
them.
Yep you see them in the prison break episode in season one.
Lots of additions.
I hate being a fan of Star Wars and I know this shit.
So embarrassing.
Why can't we talk about Star Trek books?
At least I'm a proud Trekkie.
I know so little about those books.
I could do the next gen one actually but on this podcast we're fantasy only.
When one day when we have like tons of fans and we have a Patreon we'll do a Star Trek
themed episode occasional episode there.
That sounds amazing.
That's a promise I will live to regret.
One day we're podcasting superstars parking our limos outside Hudson's Chinese in the
future our podcasts will all be screened at movie theatres after the great revolution.
So Geordi we've basically thrown nothing but praise at this book.
Is there anything you want to like gun for some a niggle you said some bad things about
the character of Joruus C'baoth the dark Jedi and the syntax but is there anything
fundamental to how this is put together you're like nah it's good tie-in but it's not good
literature.
I have quibbles regarding how small the galaxy is like they just run into stuff by coincidence
a bunch.
I think that I don't like the fact that Luke is a little bit too gung-ho with his lightsaber
at times like there's a bit where he just like charges for room and kills 10 people
with his lightsaber and obviously Luke kills people like that's just a thing he does he's
a rebel fighter but it is a bit too Conan-y for my taste for Luke Skywalker just be like
cutting people down.
I much prefer the bit at the end where he like chops down pillars and he does like a
clever trick with his lightsaber that feels more appropriate.
It sort of makes you feel like this Luke wouldn't have done his whole ploy in Jabba's palace
he would have just walked in with his lightsaber and gone okay Jabba.
Wrapped off the head job done.
Exactly so I don't really like that too much because I don't want Jedi to just be murder
hobos I want them to be something more.
Other than that do I have any other problems?
I don't like the fact that you made me read a book which has a cliffhanger because you
wanted me to pick the next pick it as the next book.
Actually I would never be so manipulative and I know you have internal fortitude look
at me I've been resisting the next Scholomance books for months.
It's over a year actually.
And I really like them.
But who's counting?
Yeah yeah great you motherfucker.
Alright um Duncan I think I've accidentally done a perfect segue to the end of the episode
who do you recommend this book for?
Star Wars fans?
I don't recommend it for not Star Wars fans that's for sure.
Yeah if you...
No wait wait wait I have a complaint I have a complaint what the fuck Timothy Zahn?
What did he do?
Hot chocolate?
Yeah hahaha.
I showed that to my girlfriend and she went hmm that's not right.
So much to infer like is there a planet that just so happens to also have the identical
like cocoa bean or did Lando find Earth?
That's just hot chocolate Lando introduced Luke Skywalker to hot chocolate.
Is there more chocolate does that get brought up in future books or is that one mistake
that could never be...
Oh no no no they lean into it like Lando Calrissian is hot chocolate and ice cream it's just one
of his things it's his schemes mate.
Hahaha that's funny good good good I'm very pleased to hear that.
Alright let's move towards the end I also recommend this book to fans of Star Wars.
Yep it's the best Star Wars book that I have read.
It makes me like outbound flight less though.
I already was souring on it but now it feels so cynical and I cannot recommend a book in
the slightest anymore but definitely I do recommend this book.
It's sad that we now have to move on to other pastures.
Regrettable but very much needed.
Can I just ask you Geordie quickly if we are not continuing how do you feel about Air to
the Empire as a you know incomplete narrative does it still give you enough?
I think that it is a pretty extreme cut off you know a lot of threads are still dangling
you've got the Noghri with Leia that's not resolved you've got the Mara Jade and Luke
Skywalker you've got Thrawn's future plans yeah it's not a complete narrative in the
slightest.
And that's what I alluded to earlier I feel very similar that I often have read this as
a trilogy again and again because do read this first book and I think you will enjoy
it but you're right it even looking back now it all blends into one because it really does
feel like one one narrative over three volumes.
I mentioned a couple of episodes ago in our top 50 episode about how strange the dreamer
is the only book in the entire podcast where one of us has gone well I have to read the
next one.
We've read sequels on the podcast but normally just because we're like yeah we want to follow
this thread through to the end but we absolutely could go elsewhere we didn't have to read
the subtle knife after the Northern Lights but we chose to.
The end of strange the dreamer was so intense and so cliffhanger that you had no choice
but to read the next book and we're kind of at a similar point here which is why the next
book we're gonna be reading is Dark Force Rising.
Okay I thought you made me enjoy Star Wars so much I wanted to read the next one
and I have been reading it I've already started reading it.
I mean I have too.
Duncan I bought the next two books.
Oh Geordie can you imagine if I don't pick the third if I leave you dangling there.
I will skin you if you don't do it but in a nice family friendly way.
I am delighted I am actually I'm overjoyed.
Geordie you're about to go on I think the most satisfying Star Wars journey you probably
have ever had since watching the original trilogy for the first time.
It is a delight and I'm very smug for introducing it to you.
Do you think the next book is better than the first one?
It has some very strong plot some of the characters or I don't know I don't know I can't tell
you yeah I've got to reread it Geordie.
It certainly has some character plots are better than their part in the first book.
Leia definitely comes to the forefront in the next book however other characters maybe
they drop back a bit and I think that's an ebb and flow we'll see over all three books
in this series because I can't see myself not picking the final book after this Geordie.
Alrighty then alrighty.
If you have read Heir to the Empire, seen Star Wars or just have an opinion on what we've
just said please do reach out and let us know at if it's just fantasy podcast on Instagram.
You can also reach out to us at our Gmail is this fantasy podcast at gmail.com love
to hear your thoughts if you think we've completely done Star Wars dirty feel free to send a shouty-
ranty message I'm sure I will also read it.
I want to interrupt here and say that there's a possibility I don't know how the time
rooms are going to line up here there's a possibility that the next episode you're going
to hear will not be Dark Forces Rising it may be Children of Anguish and Anarchy or
whatever it's called.
Anarchy and Anguish the last book in the Children of Blood and Bone series because that book
is coming out quite soon relative to where we are recording this and we are definitely
going to jump in read that as quick as we can and then get a review out and I don't
know whose pick that will be I literally have no idea because I picked the last one but
it was by spending a destiny point to make you read it I have no idea if that even counts
I think we'll do it as a mutual agreement for the good of the podcast we both want to
see that series finished and it's always fun to do it in a timely manner and be part
of the zeitgeist of a new book released just like we were with Empire of the Damned it's
a lot of fun so yes while we are doing the Thrawn trilogy as it has been called in the
past or not really called now as the Empire trilogy we may get punk that one in just so
we can be with you all it is called the it is called a Thrawn trilogy on my cover of
my book interesting in the back of my book it's actually just called the Empire trilogy
they have renamed it over the years that's interesting I guess because Thrawn became
such an influential character but then they brought out another Thrawn trilogy later down
the line so it gets very confusing yes that's true that is true hmm I've been your host
Geordie Bailey and I've been your host Duncan Nicoll till next time may the force be with
you, always.