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What's up everybody? Welcome back to the All Things Croatia podcast. I'm your host,
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Stanko Zovak, and I'm bringing you the best of Croatia from around the globe.
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information, go to www.adriatictours.com or click the link in the description. Now,
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eat a modalia and let's get started. Alright, welcome back to the podcast everyone. In this
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episode we have special guest, Dusty Dragicovic. Dusty is an Australian Croatian who recently
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published a book called Croatian Bank Notes, a standard reference. And in the book, Dusty
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shows and explains the many symbols and figures printed on Croatian currency over the years,
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and gives historical context explaining their significance. In this episode, we're going
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to learn about the history of the Kuna and earlier Croatian currencies through a historical lens.
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Dusty, thanks for coming on the podcast. Thanks very much for having me. Appreciate it.
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Puno pozravi svij, susatelje. I want to thank you right off the bat for sending the PDF over
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for me to take a glance at and read here before coming on. It was a very interesting book and it
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gives a lot of good historical context that I didn't know about, some that I did, some that I
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didn't. And before we go any further into the book and talking about Croatian bank notes and
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the currency, I just want to ask a little bit about yourself. If you could give us a summary
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of your Croatian heritage and talk a little bit about that, your ties to Croatia.
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Yes, absolutely. Well, I was born in Croatia, if you will. My dad is from a village called
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Dornijumats on the island of Brac and my mum is a native from Split. And yeah, so they met,
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my dad came to Australia first in the 60s and then he went back and met my mum and then brought
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her back to Australia and I was born in the north of Western Australia in the Kimberley region.
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And I grew up there for the first 16 years of my life and growing up there, there weren't many
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Croatians, my cousin and his family and their kuma and her family were there but there weren't
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many of us but my mum stayed at home so she taught me how to read and write Croatian.
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So it was instilled at me at a young age, you know. And so I always knew my heritage as Croatian
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and it's always been important to me since then. Well, I could tell right away you had
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Croatian roots because your email has torcida in it. Yes, yes, I'm a high-dook GV
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virtual and yeah, so that's definitely a salute to the high-dooks and their supporters who I'm a
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card-carrying member of. Oh, awesome, yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, I'm a big high-dook fan, especially when I'm down
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in Dalmatia for the summer, you have to be a high-dook fan down there. Yes, you have to be,
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the other football-traveling fans is I'm sure it's where angels fear to tread when high-dooks plan.
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That's it, I want to get into how you started getting into the Croatian banknotes, as you say,
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which is the bills. So you've got the five, the ten, sort of everything that's printed on the bills,
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what we have now, the Kuna. When did you start getting into that? Well, first I started getting
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into it, like, I was always interested in at first, like, Croatian, a military, and like,
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that was before I got to visit Croatia, like, the first time I went, I took my wife in the year 2000,
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so didn't get to travel before, but in the meantime, I was reading a lot about Croatia, my cousin sent me
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his war medals and his beret and his uniform and all that, which I really appreciated. So I was
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getting into that, but when I visited Croatia in 2000, I looked at all the Kuna, this new money,
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Croatia's got its own money, and I'm looking at the people on there, like, on the five and the ten,
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and, you know, see, Barjelačić and going, who are these people, you know, if anyone to be on a
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banknote, they must have been great people, you know, and, you know, where are all these places
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that are depicted on there, you know, I never knew there was a, like, the arena in Pula, and,
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you know, the Vucadol dove, and I'm going, you know, thinking, well, where are these things from,
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and who were these people, what did they contribute to Croatia's society, so it really, that was when
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the spark started, if you will, because, you know, does everyone know who these people are? I think
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we should know who they are, you know, and so, but then, like, I wasn't really aware, like, apart
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from the Kuna of present-day Croatia, didn't know that there was, you know, currency issued, you know,
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during World War II, and in between years, like, fantasy issues and all that, and that came later,
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so it sparked my interest then, and then, you know, I was collecting, and then, you know,
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researching the more, and, you know, meeting banknote dealers, and they said, you know,
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about this, and it just went from there, so, kind of like, it developed into an OCD obsession,
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you know, I couldn't have any gaps in my album, you know, so it all started from then.
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So I read, and tell me if this is true, but now you hold every single banknote in Croatian-printed history,
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is that true?
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Yes, that's right, but I say that from, like, there are some people who read my book and said,
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oh, I know you've missed this, you've missed that, but every banknote printed by a, like, a solely Croatian institution,
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I have, I don't have any of the, like, the, the Krona, like, the local issues around the Istria area,
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and I think there's some Filiro issues, like, from Kálovač, but they were like,
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they weren't, like, distinctly Croatian, that was like, when it was under Habsburg rule,
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you know what I mean, but, like, from Second World War to present day, I have every single issue,
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including the runner-up concept, competition entrance to, you know, when I'll compete,
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which design will become the new money, and that was a really nice buy, it was really handy to have,
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because I didn't know they existed, and, yeah, there was a real prize as well.
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How long did it take you to collect all of these?
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It took, I'd say about, you know, 15 years, and, yeah, and, because I really, I wanted them in, like, good condition,
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each banknote, and I had some good connections in Osjak and in Zagreb, and, yeah, it was,
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it was a determined effort, and especially the banknote that features on the cover,
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and that's a really, really rare one, and, yeah, that was, that was quite pretty penny, but well worth it.
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And you have to buy all these from collectors, or, I mean, do you find some in, like, circulation,
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you know, when, I don't know, do people, like, have them in their wallets on accident?
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Are there still some circulating, or, I mean, it's all owned by collectors, and you can't really find them anywhere else?
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Well, the old school ones, like the World War II ones from collectors and dealers, and, I like the,
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I wanted them, if they're like in someone's wallet, they're not going to be in, like, the best condition,
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you know, any banknote collector would say that, you know, if it's in un-circulated condition,
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it's, it's best, it's worth more, and, you know, it looks nicer, but there were certain rare ones that,
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you know, I wouldn't, wasn't really particularly fussy about the condition as long as I had it to complete the collection.
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Yeah, and now are some of those still valid? Can you still use those, like, in stores, or cash them in at a bank, or no?
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No, no, no. Only only the present day Kuna, and that's only for the next couple years, I think,
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now that Croatia's gone to the euro.
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Well, yeah, we'll talk about the euro a little bit towards the end, but I want to sort of get into, you know, your book,
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and, you know, sort of where do you start in your book with the first so-called Croatian currency?
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Yeah, the book cuts the independent state of Croatia, that's where a distinctly Croatian Institute issued,
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distinctly Croatian banknotes, and not like Kingdom of Yugoslavia or anything like that, it was strictly Croatian issued,
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and the designs displayed, you know, a determination for Croatian heritage and history to be showcased on them,
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and they're quite beautifully designed banknotes, and, yeah, we started there in 1941 on the establishment of the independent state of Croatia,
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and the first issues there, and then in 1943 they redesigned the Kuna, and they were also,
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but they were done by different artists, and then also in 1944 there were a couple of issues,
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but given that they're low denomination and their country was in a state of hyperinflation, they didn't issue them,
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but they're all beautifully designed, and like, I learnt like with the origin of the Croatian pletter and other symbols that you see around Croatia today,
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and like, and also I learnt a lot about the artists who designed the banknotes, what are the contributions that they did to art in Croatia,
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and I wondered if everyone knew who they were, and if they knew of their achievements, and if not, I think that they,
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I thought that people probably should know, given that, you know, they were famous artists at the time,
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and yeah, so it starts there, and it's quite a big chapter given that there were a lot of symbols and designs
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that needed to be explained, and also the people behind the banknotes, like the signatures on them,
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like also like, well for instance like the artist who designed the 1943, 1944 series Vladimir Kirin,
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like I did not know that he helped get Ivan Mestrovic out of the country, and yeah, I thought, you know,
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how many people knew that, and I thought that was quite interesting and something that, you know,
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people should know, you know what I mean, so that was where it began, you know, a two-gallant period for Croatia,
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but yeah, like in the numismatic sense of things, it was definitely an interesting, interesting topic.
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Well, you mentioned, let's talk about the symbols a little bit, you mentioned the pletar, can you explain that a little bit,
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you know, what exactly is that, and what is the origin of that symbol?
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Yeah, the pletar is, yeah, like the interwoven or, how do I, you put me on the spot, I should know this,
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kind of like the golden wavy weave that you see on like, you see on like the police badges,
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even in the military symbols, it's like an interwoven wicker, I think is the English term for it,
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like Croatia's called the pletar, I think it's in the English word for it is wicker,
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it's kind of like an interwoven, like rope type symbol, and it's the various designs of it,
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and you see it's showcased through like all, through many like stone carvings or lapidari
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from the Middle Ages, like the pre-romantic era, there's various forms of this pletar, and it's
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distinctly like from like Croatia and like and Dalmatia and that, but you see some
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symbols like that in like Roman ruins in Italy as well, but there seems to be a prevalence of it in
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the Croatian region. Yeah, that's definitely, I mean, nowadays it's very prevalent as well in
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Croatia, you know, you see that symbol, yeah, sort of a wicker or I'm trying to think how even I
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usually refer to it when I'm trying to describe it, maybe like a braided rope. Braided rope, yeah,
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I didn't think of that at the time, kind of like a braided rope, and it's yeah, very unique to
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Croatian as a Croatian symbol, like if a Croatian sees it anywhere, they'll recognize it.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly. And as far as, you know, pictures of people on that first edition of the
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currency, you mentioned Ante Starchevich earlier, was he on that first edition or did he come later?
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No, he came later, so he's on the 1000 Kuna today, which you don't see too much of in Croatia,
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they only designed that, they released it in 1993, and they haven't like all the other denominations
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from 200 down, they made an updated one with Ante Starchevich, because it's not many people would
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see that kind of money, I think it's what translated to or converted rather to Australian dollars,
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I think 200 dollars or something, so it's a lot of money, but Starchevich didn't feature in like the
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independent state of Croatia banknotes, but actually in the whole series, no one famous was depicted,
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rather like in the 1943 series, they used folklore costumes from various regions around Croatia,
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and Bosnia, Herzegovina. You know, you mentioned not many people have seen the 1000 Kuna, I would
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be surprised if you're even able to use that over here, even if you haven't, you know, I've got
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trouble breaking a 200 even a 100 Kuna bill sometimes, so I imagine it's pretty difficult to
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try and spend 1000 Kuna bill. Yeah, you get a lot of change. Well, now in terms of currency,
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after the independent state of Croatia, what happened? Well, as we all know, Croatia was
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incorporated into the new Yugoslav state under a communist rule, and so Croatia was forced to
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take the Dina, Yugoslav Dina, and so they were all printed out of Belgrade under the Yugoslav
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Central Bank structures over there, but then there was nothing distinctly like Croatian official
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that came out of Croatia. There was like there was like exiled stamps, like for Philitalia,
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there were definitely exiled stamps like from the diaspora, except stamps with Croatian themes, but
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in the 70s during the Croatian spring or mass pock, like what they called a propaganda note
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was released, and there was like 100 dinars, and that was kind of like in the first
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kind of Croatian theme, banknotes, since the independent state of Croatia to come out,
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and given that was a time of Croatian awakening in the 70s, and a lot of the
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politicians that went to Croatia for independence in the 1990s, early 1990s, they were present at
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this Croatian spring, or the Croatian movement, and that was to I think,
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issued to kind of, I'm not sure to commemorate the event or anything, but it was interesting that
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they had a painting of, or the head of Tomislav, which was from a painting that was painted during
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World War II, and on the other side there was a picture of the Fahadija Mosque from Banyu Luká,
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and it was an interesting choice to put a mosque on the back for like a Croatian themed banknote,
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but yeah that was probably the first one that came out, and since then there wasn't anything until
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like fantasy issues until 1990. And yeah I remember in the book you were talking about the
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fantasy variations, so what exactly is that? That's something that never made it into official
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circulation, but it was still printed? Yeah it was kind of like, you know, towards the end of the 80s,
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and there was talk of multi-party elections within Yugoslavia, and people thinking there
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will be a time when Croatia will be independent, what kind of money are we going to have, what are
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we going to call it? And so there was like one magazine called Rubicon, and they had kind of
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like, with their magazine they had a couple of issues where some private issues were created,
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and they printed a fair few of them, they called it the Barnica, and it was kind of like, you know,
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this is what Croatia money might look like, and they had well-known figures on the banknotes, so
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they had Croatian themes, like Svetogá Markova, a church from Zagreb on there,
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Steppen Rydich of course, and you know, even a person called Matej Gubets, and you know,
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he only featured on the fantasy issues, and also on the fantasy issues where Croatia only had its
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only female representation on it, and if you saw that there, because you know, today's money
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doesn't have any female representation on it, and the only one was a lady called Maria Yuric
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Zagorka, and she featured on the one Barnica that first came out, you know, in around 1990, so
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like, with these like fantasy issues, it also has like, you know, well-known symbols and even
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like a carving by Ivomestri, so I thought it was interesting to learn about these things, because
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you know, I never heard of these people before, you know. You know exactly how, or not exactly,
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but around how many copies of that, I mean how rare is that now to have as a collector
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those fantasy variations? I think they printed a fair few, because they were serialized, they have
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like a serial number, they start with a HR for you know, for Hervatska, and there was like,
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there was a number there, so they, there's a fair few, and I've seen them on like auction websites,
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you know, be it eBay or Oxia.her, and they do ask a, yeah, a reasonable amount, probably about,
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you know, 10 euros a bank note, you know, so kind of rare, but yeah, I'm not sure, but
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yeah, like because of these bank notes, I've heard of, I learned about the guy who invented the
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Pankala, you know, Slava Pankala, because he was on one of the fan, on the number five, the five
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barnets, a denomination, so it was, yeah, I think, you know, quite interesting, and I thought an
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essential addition to this book. Yeah, that is interesting, I'm glad you put that in there,
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and fast forward to today, you are some of the, you know, important people that we have today on
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the Kuna up until, it went six, five more months, you know, until we switched to the Euro. Yeah,
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well, prior to that, we had the, you know, I don't know if you remember the Hervatski dinar,
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and that was the, the story behind that was quite interesting, how, you know, Croatia still was,
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you know, the war had started, and they had to truck the money in from Sweden, the artist who
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did it, it was a famous stamp designer from Sweden, Croatian origins, Latvijakus,
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the notes all looked the same, and they had, you know, the famous scientist,
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Rudje Boskevic, and, you know, I thought he was, he was definitely an important person,
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and he's made a great contribution to science and that, and then, yes, you know, to the Kuna today,
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you know, many famous Croatians, I mean, everyone's familiar with Barnjelačić,
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they see his statue every time they visit Zagreb, you know, he's the pride, the pride of the city,
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you know, in the middle of the Turk, and, yeah, Petr Zrenski and Krstofrankelpan,
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these are all, you know, like these people who, those two especially fought for, you know, Croatian,
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Croatian people and rights up against the, you know, the Austrians, and of course,
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Arte Stasovic on the Thousand Kuna, you know, he fought for Croatian language, and he's quite,
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he was quite a prominent Croatian, like, you know, a prominent writer, and, yeah, like, you know,
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his, his grave is like a shrine to many Croatians, and I don't know if you've ever seen it in
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Sestina, it's quite, quite a nice tomb. No, actually, I haven't been there, I haven't seen it.
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Does he have the statue that's a little bit, which direction is that, east of the Turk,
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across the street from Barnjelačić, and just a little bit further down,
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I forget the name of that street. Yeah, I'm not sure, I don't know the streets of Zagreb too well,
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I've only visited twice, but for about a week each time, and all we knew was the main drag, where
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it took you to Barnjelačić, and beautiful city, I do like Zagreb a lot, and even, you know,
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it's quite, yeah, quite a charming city, always nice, very clean, and yeah, charming, but yeah,
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unfortunately I don't know the streets too well there, and I don't know the monuments there.
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Well, I'm sure you're going to the, you're spending most of the time at the coast,
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you know, when you're there for the summer too, huh? Yeah, I'm definitely visiting family,
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and yeah, definitely soak up the sunshine, and the local cuisine, and... Oh yeah, you have to.
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Yeah, Dacie, I want to ask real quick, before we go into sort of the, you know, last couple
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questions I have prepared, and sort of the end of the podcast, but because this is important,
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and we haven't brought it up yet, but what is the significance of the name Kuna?
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All right, yeah, like Kuna is like the Croatian word for the martin, which is a, you know,
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a animal, which is not just native to Croatia, it's like throughout Central Europe and Eastern
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Europe as well, and like in the medieval times, the martin skins were used as, like the pelts,
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were used as currency, so like it's like the name Kuna, using the name Kuna for Croatia's money,
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is deeply rooted in history, and you know, the only country in the world that called their money
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Kuna, but you know, historically throughout Central or Eastern Europe, they all used
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Kuna or martin pelts as money, so yeah, definitely I think an excellent choice to
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to give Croatia's money that name, because they were going to call it the Kruna crown, but that's
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that was something that, you know, it's not really, it doesn't have any historic tradition
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in Croatia. Yeah, I saw that that was in the book, that that was a selling point of the name Kuna,
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is that they wouldn't have to classify it as Croatian Kuna, because you know, there was no
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other countries, I forget about which currency, was that about the Kruna or the Kuna? Yeah,
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they're going to call it the Hervatski Kruna, and it's kind of, kind of like very cumbersome, and
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you know, I think, you know, I honestly don't know why they, they had their reasons to
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go down that path, but I mean like even the name Kuna, it was met with a bit of controversy,
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because it was the name of the currency during the independent state of Croatia, but it's like
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the history of the Kuna goes way back further than that, so it's like an author said about the
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arguments, it's a great herring to say that it's, has anything to do with the World War II period.
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Now, Dusty, as someone who you know, has studied this for a long time, and tell me again, what is
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the word for that? Numus? I forgot to write it down. Numus Mattis. Yeah, so the hobby is
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numismatics, and I'm the person who studies as a numismatist. That, for you, what is the
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importance of having a national currency? The importance of it is like, it's a national identity.
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You're showcasing your historically brightest people, your proudest monuments on money,
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they're not just the local people, like when you got tourists come over, they're holding, you know,
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a piece of paper that shows, you know, this is Croatia, these people, you know, this is,
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this is our history, you're holding it in your hands. So to me, like every banknote is art, and
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you know, you, you're showcasing your best on that money, and that's why, to me,
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I feel it's very important for a country to have its own national currency.
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Hmm, yeah, it's definitely a big sense of pride, and a sense of, sense of identity,
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yeah, as you said, exactly. And I mean, I can already then assume your thoughts on
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this upcoming switch to the Euro. Yeah, I was quite surprised. Yeah, I mean, like,
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I hope, I hope that the government has thought long and hard about this, and
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and think that it's the right path. But yeah, you know, is it a kind of like a loss of a bit of
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national identity? You know, I don't want to be so doom and gloom and say that, you know,
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I'm sure they had good reasons to do it. There must be some distinct, some, or plenty of advantages
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in going down this path. But yeah, like, it's end of an era, you know, that's the Kuna is
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consigned to history. And it's sad. But, you know, it's there, like, I'm glad I published this book.
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So it's, it's something's written about it. And, you know, it always be, you know, it was always,
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it was saying, you know, it was part of Croatia's history. Yeah, that's true. Have you looked at
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all at the new designs for the Croatian Euro? I guess that's what it's called. Yeah, the year
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I see what the coins, I think for the two, like, every country makes their own design on the
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two Euro coin, I think they've got Nikola Tesla on it. And yeah, there's, you know,
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I don't think on the bank notes, there'll be any, like, I don't think there are any plans or if they're
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allowed to have, you know, like the euro tries to not have, you know, strictly nationalist,
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or, you know, national identity symbols on bank notes, which makes it boring. Yeah, so it's just
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the coins. I think I've seen them. Yeah, they've even actually, I think they've, they had a design
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for a Kuna, but I think they scrapped it and they redid it because of, I think it was because of
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plagiarism issues or something. But yeah, there was like, kind of like a salute to the Kuna with
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the Martin on one of the coins. Yeah, so yeah, like, you know, I'd rather that Croatia keep the Kuna,
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but you know, I'm not powerful enough to stop what they're doing with the Euro.
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Yeah, well, I mean, only time will tell, you know, what will happen and hopefully the switch to the
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Euro will, you know, bring, I don't know, economic success, you know, whatever it's supposed to do.
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Yeah, hopefully that works. But, you know, Dusty, I wanted to thank you for coming on the podcast
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and, you know, talking a little about your book and about, you know, the historical
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context surrounding Croatian currency up until, you know, the modern day. Do you have a, you know,
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I'll let you shout out some of your, I don't know, if you have a website for the book or
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where can people, you know, find it or find you? Yeah, no, thank you very much for having me on.
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I appreciate it. Talking about Croatia is just my favorite topic at all times. And it's great
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that you got this podcast for all things Croatian. That's fantastic. You do a great job. Yeah, if
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people are interested in this book, I sell hard copies and also PDF versions. If they have got
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a website as such, don't have a domain name yet. But if people either put in Google Vela Red
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Publishing or put in Google Croatian banknotes, a standard reference, you will see a website come up
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and yeah, and my contact details are on there. And yeah, I'll have you send me some of those
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links as well. So people who are listening, you can go into the episode description and see those
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links that I'll post. But Dusty, you know, thank you again for taking the time to do this. I know I
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didn't give you quite a long bit of notice, but I appreciate you being patient with me and for
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coming on here. Thanks again for having me. I enjoyed it and I hope I put on a good show.
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That's it for today's episode of the All Things Croatian podcast. Thanks for tuning in and I hope
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you all enjoyed it. You can subscribe to the Patreon and check out the All Things Croatian
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Instagram page to stay updated. Feel free to reach out to me with any questions, tips or ideas,
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and make sure to tune back in to the next episode. Thanks again and vidimos!