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Welcome to Nice Ashes, I'm Mike.

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And I'm Nate.

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What are we smoking, Mike?

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We are going to smoke one of my favorites, the CAO MX2.

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Which you've never smoked before, if I'm not mistaken.

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I've had these cigars many times.

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I like it.

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Yes, I know.

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All right, let's light them up.

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I will tell you, now that we're in season two, I've been a lot more diligent on making

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sure that my initial light is very even and fully burning.

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And it's made for a lot nicer smoke throughout and a lot less relights on my part.

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Of course, being indoors helps now, but I think getting that initial light is super

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important.

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It is.

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And my lighting technique has changed over the years to where I take a couple puffs and

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then I take the lighter and I kind of circle it and get it nice and hot.

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Yep, I light it, take some puffs, make sure everything's lit, take some puffs and then

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look again at the end to make sure that there's no dark spots that haven't stayed lit and

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then just re-kind of torch those.

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So this one is nice, the first couple puffs.

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It seems, I don't know if smoother is the right term, because our last stick was very,

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very smooth.

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Maybe a little, and buttery isn't really like not in the sense of flavor, but it just, it's

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smooth.

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It's smooth.

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It's got a dark note, but not overpowering.

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Very nice cigar.

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Like I say, I don't know.

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I think these are out of a box I bought a couple years ago, because I bought a box at

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a cigar shop.

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So I have the physical MX2 box because I really like them.

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I wanted to have a good base of cigars.

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So in terms of topic today, what are we doing?

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We're going to talk about Dune, the books.

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But the books, yes.

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Yep.

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Okay.

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And so we both recently finished reading all eight books in the main timeline.

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You did it for the third time, right?

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This is my second time through.

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Okay.

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This is only my second.

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And this is my first time through all of them.

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And I have all my ratings up because I use Goodreads every time I read something so I

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can keep track of like what I read and if I liked it or not.

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And Goodreads does a five-star rating system.

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You know, sometimes sites do 10 stars or five stars or whatever.

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So I'm going to say this upfront, and then I'm sure you're going to kind of lead the

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conversation for most of it because you've read it before.

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And we've kind of talked off the podcast about some of the Dune stuff, but never in-depth

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about the books per se.

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So I rated every single Dune book, all eight of them, either a four out of five or a five

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out of five.

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And the ones that I liked least, meaning the four out of fives, which are still great books.

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So the first Dune was a five out of five for me.

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Dune Messiah, which is the second one, was a four out of five for me.

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That one's quite a bit shorter, if I remember correctly.

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Garden of Dune was a five out of five.

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God Emperor of Dune was a five out of five.

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And I feel like God Emperor of Dune was my favorite book of the entire series.

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And Heretics of Dune was a four out of five.

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Chapter House was a four out of five.

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Hunters of Dune was a four out of five.

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And the last one I gave a five out of five, Sandworms of Dune.

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And just for full disclosure, Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune were written by Brian

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Herbert, Frank's son, and Kevin J. Anderson.

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So they co-wrote both of those based on outlines and things they found in a, I think a safety

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deposit box after their father had died or his father had died.

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Yes.

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Yes, that is the case.

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And I have read most of the extended Dune universe as well.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Did you have somewhere you wanted to start or?

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Yeah, I was going to start because we just read the main timeline and there are a bunch

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of Dune novels outside of the main timeline.

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All by Brian and Kevin, I think.

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Yeah, all by Brian and Kevin.

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And I like them all.

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I think they're good.

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Not that everybody else is going to think the same thing, obviously.

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Yeah.

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And I remember when I bought the first one at the bookstore, they were like, oh, this

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one's great, but ignore all the rest.

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And I'm so glad that I didn't listen to that.

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Right.

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I was going to say that the first Dune is a classic.

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And if you read the first one, you're going to want to read the second.

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The first three, which is Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, that really could be

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a trilogy in and of itself.

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Yeah.

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And there's no real reason to go past that unless you want to read a lot of Dune.

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I think the divisive book in the series is God Emperor of Dune because my brother got

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to that book and then he gave up the entire series because he thought it was stupid.

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And it turns out that God Emperor was my favorite one of the series, I think.

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So really, I think that one's divisive.

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I don't know that it has to be your favorite, but I think if you enjoy that one, then you

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might as well read the rest of them, at least in the main timeline.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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If you can make it through quote unquote, if you can make it through God Emperor of

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Dune, you might as well read the rest.

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So it sounds like you're pretty amazed that God Emperor of Dune was my favorite.

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So why don't we, should we start there?

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We can start there.

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So God Emperor of Dune is a transition book between the original storyline and then the

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beginning of the extended Dune universe.

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Everything else.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And it's weird for sure.

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Oh man, it's so weird.

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And it spans like 1500 years.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Well, it's 5000 years ahead or 3000 years ahead of Children of Dune.

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So all the people that you are invested in for the first three are all dead, including

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Not all of them.

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Yeah.

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The original Leto was pretty much no longer there.

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Right.

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Like so.

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He was there.

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Sure.

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Totally different character and all of the other, you know, I don't know how many names

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we should drop just in case people want to read Dune.

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Because it's a spoiler to say the one guy's name for sure.

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Oh, but these books have been out for a long time.

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So I think let's give our listeners our last chance right now.

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And let's just say that we can't properly talk about the eight Dune books in the main

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Dune timeline without spoilers.

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So if you haven't read them and you want to read them and be surprised, then just stop

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listening right now and come back and listen after you've read the eight or listen to them

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on an audio book or whatever you want to do.

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Because I don't think we can, it'd be a 10 minute episode if we can't talk about what

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happens in the Dune books.

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Right.

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And that revolves around certain characters for sure.

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And the most important character in the Dune universe is not Paul Atreides.

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Or even Leto too.

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Or even Leto.

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No.

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So all right.

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Last chance.

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Last chance.

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All right.

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So here we go.

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One of the most interesting parts about God Emperor is that the only character you really

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know is Duncan Idaho because it's the original Duncan Idaho just moved in time.

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Well, Gola.

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And Leto is totally as a Gola and he's totally different.

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Leto is totally different and the whole universe is totally different.

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And it's kind of, the first time I read it, I didn't quite understand why people were

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so angry at Leto from the description of what was going on.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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It didn't seem like that bad of a place really.

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Well, basically he made them not fight.

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I mean, you know, it's like a gross over summation, but that was his whole plan was to give them

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so many thousands years of peace as contrast to everything else.

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Because think of the upheaval in the first three Dune books with, you know, Paul overthrowing

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the Emperor Shaddam and instilling his own jihad in emperorship.

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And you know, him going off to be the prophet and then his kids and Aliyah or Leah.

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I don't know how you pronounce it.

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Aliyah.

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The only reason why I know is because I listened to the audio books.

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Oh yeah.

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I really enjoyed.

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It was hot rock.

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Yep.

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Which is not how I pronounce it.

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I pronounce it with a lot harder H sound much like I did with our guest last episode.

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Yes.

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And I'm bad at pronouncing things.

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Here I go again with my incredible mastery of the English language.

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I pronounced it wrong.

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I think Lito Lito too is my favorite character in the entire series.

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He is.

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I wouldn't say he's mine.

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I think and this comes in later.

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I think Miles tag is probably.

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Oh, he's great.

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He is great.

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Yeah.

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Because he's kind of like the culmination of the breeding program without being a quiz

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us hot rock, you know?

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Yep.

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I hinted in the last book that he may well have been after the T probe, after the T probe.

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But at first, so I want to get this out of the way.

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At first I was very annoyed about Duncan, Idaho being everywhere all the time and they

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kept bringing him back through the Gola program.

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And I was like, okay, we're thousands of years beyond.

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Like, let's just, let's please just move on.

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But as a literary device, I came to enjoy him because he was kind of me, the reader,

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right?

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Because he had been there in the original book and he had been there through the Gola

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program and everything else.

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So he was kind of like the anchor point for the reader.

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And of course there's huge plot points later on involving Duncan, but for the reader, he

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was kind of an anchor point and they kept bringing him back and bringing him back.

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And at first it was annoying, but once I kind of understood that he was kind of a guide

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for me, the reader, to wrap my head around the stuff that was happening because everything

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was moving so fast because the leaps in time were massive for a while there.

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But I think Leto too was one of my favorite characters because of the things that he did.

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And they really, in the last book, Sandworms of Dune, I really wanted them to hearken back

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to this, but he basically, Leto too basically invented or bred or made, because he had his

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own breeding program running counter to the Benedicessor breeding program.

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And he basically made Duncan to be unseeable by the prescient visions, which led to the

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no ships and led to all of that stuff, the things that couldn't be seen.

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Right.

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It wasn't just Duncan.

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It was the Atreides line as well.

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Oh yeah.

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And that was the most fascinating thing is not only did Leto too take the huge sacrifice

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that Paul wouldn't or couldn't, but he took it.

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And the merging with the sand trout and becoming a giant.

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And the book cover is one of my favorites because it's like a giant penis worm with

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a little face sticking out the top.

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And Sarah's like, what in the fuck are you reading right now?

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And I'm like, oh man, it's great.

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And she's like, okay, whatever.

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But I mean, it's a huge leap, right?

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He's merging with a different species and becoming something completely different.

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But he laid the groundwork for all of this no ship stuff and all of these things.

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And that never would have happened had he not done what he did.

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And some of the scenes between him and I can't remember now who he wanted his wife to be

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and who ultimately his wife was, but only in like namesake.

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But she, I think her and one of the Duncan golas like got it on.

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Do you remember?

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I can't remember what her name was.

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But it doesn't really matter.

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Yeah.

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I mean, she was only pertinent for that one book, The God Emperor of Dune, but she was

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only pertinent for a small portion of that book.

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She's kind of like a trigger device.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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And I feel like, and she was kind of designed to be a trigger device and he knew that and

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he still wanted her, you know?

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So I feel like it was kind of, it was one of those tales.

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I mean, almost, I mean, almost like Romeo and Juliet or something where you've got the

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love but you can't be with them for some reason.

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And I don't know, I feel like his character was far more complex or far more complexly

245
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,560
written than Paul Atreides.

246
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:38,200
Like in the first Dune book, you don't really get to know Paul a whole lot because he's

247
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:44,440
almost kind of like bustled along for most of it and just reacting to things as things

248
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:45,720
happen, you know?

249
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:46,720
Right.

250
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:47,720
He's a tool.

251
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:55,120
He was a tool that was created and he was created for the purpose that he, he was created

252
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,680
as a tool for that situation by the breeding program.

253
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:00,680
Yeah.

254
00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:05,480
And you didn't really get to know him as a person as far as like, you know, a book goes.

255
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:11,240
So I guess I felt a lot more connection with Leto too because, you know, you get him growing

256
00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,200
up with his sister and trying to, you know, with the whole wolf thing or I don't know

257
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,840
what, I don't know if they were really wolves, but they bred these like tigers or wolves.

258
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:21,840
Oh, tigers.

259
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:22,840
Yeah.

260
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:29,520
And they were kind of, they were kind of sort of abominations from the get-go, right?

261
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,440
Like they kind of had full prescience at the beginning.

262
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:38,240
And we kind of get to know that and the trade-offs that he had to take and the choices that he

263
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,000
made or chose to make for the betterment of everything.

264
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,960
And you know, everybody called him a tyrant, you know, the tyrant Leto too.

265
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,400
And I don't know that that was truly accurate.

266
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,000
I can see how people would think that, but I don't know.

267
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:57,360
I feel like the character is really well written and the circumstances around him were really

268
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:58,760
well written.

269
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:04,320
And maybe it was more because it was closer, the closest thing to a character study, you

270
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:05,680
know, kind of.

271
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:10,720
Well, he was even more fleshed out in some ways than Duncan Idaho, who was pretty much

272
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,720
the main character of Dune.

273
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,600
By accident, just so you know, Duncan Idaho was not supposed to be the main character

274
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,280
of the Dune universe, but he was very popular.

275
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:25,600
And Frank Herbert got a lot of fan mail saying that they wanted him to bring him back to

276
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:26,600
the second book.

277
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:27,600
Okay.

278
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:28,600
Yeah.

279
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,040
And that's how it happened.

280
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:32,440
So very interesting.

281
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,400
I asked what we should we lay down a groundwork for the Dune universe or?

282
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,240
I mean, let's let's do it.

283
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:39,240
Let's do it.

284
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,880
I mean, so if you've read the Dune books or if you haven't and you're not planning to,

285
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,760
but you want to follow along with our podcast today, let's lay down the groundwork and then

286
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,360
we can kind of build off of there.

287
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,240
I didn't really want to jump the gun by saying like Leto II was my favorite and God Emperor

288
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,400
of Dune was probably my favorite book of the whole series.

289
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,440
And I know that's kind of a very divisive statement to make because a lot of people

290
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,880
get turned off by God Emperor of Dune and they don't want anything else to do with the

291
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:06,880
universe.

292
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,600
So let's lay down the groundwork, Mike.

293
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:09,600
Right.

294
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,840
A lot of people are going to be watching the movies.

295
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,160
I have never seen the television show or the old movie.

296
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,080
I only watched the new movie.

297
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:22,440
Yep, I will tell you the television series is great.

298
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,200
I'd have to watch it again.

299
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,720
But that was my first exposure to Dune was that that mini series.

300
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,640
And I really enjoyed it.

301
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,680
The one the one with Sting, I tried to watch it three or four times because I tried to

302
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,960
watch the theatrical one and I turned it off after 15 minutes because it was it was like

303
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,720
the worst stuff I've ever seen.

304
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,040
And I've seen and you know, Mike, I've seen some stuff.

305
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,160
Then I tried to watch the director's cut and that was just as bad.

306
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,920
And then I tried to watch like a fan edit where they tried to like make it match the

307
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:54,920
book more.

308
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:55,920
And it was still terrible.

309
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,800
And I didn't know what the hell was going on.

310
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,080
So I just can't watch that movie, I guess.

311
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,080
Interesting.

312
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,440
I want to watch it, but I haven't yet.

313
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:05,940
Maybe we should watch it together.

314
00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:06,940
We should.

315
00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:12,160
We can watch it and do maybe we could do a live critical review.

316
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:13,160
I'm down.

317
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,880
Oh, I totally be down.

318
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,120
So something that we can do in the future.

319
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:25,160
So Dune universe, it's ten thousand years ahead of present time.

320
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,760
Earth is not even remembered by the majority of the population.

321
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:35,760
It's an intergalactic society that has reverted to a feudal system.

322
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,840
And there's various factions.

323
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:43,420
The most important faction that we're concerned about are the Bene Gesserit, which are women

324
00:16:43,420 --> 00:16:46,800
that run a long term breeding program.

325
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:53,800
And they have used their knowledge to basically make themselves superior fighting machines

326
00:16:53,800 --> 00:17:01,720
with semi prescient powers who can use drugs to look into, quote unquote, other memory

327
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,760
and recall information from past lives.

328
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:05,760
Yes.

329
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:12,760
And more so than that, and more so than that, they also have kind of complete control over

330
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,680
their molecular biology.

331
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,800
So part of becoming a Bene Gesserit is you take it's called the water of life, but what

332
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:28,480
it basically is a lethal dosage of Malange or the spice from Dune or Arrakis or later

333
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:35,320
Arrakis and it will kill you if your training has not been done to the level where you can

334
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:42,800
go into yourself and molecularly change the lethal substance to a non lethal substance,

335
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,720
which may sound like a chemistry bullshit, but hey, it's a science fiction fictional

336
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:48,720
book.

337
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,200
So we're not going to get hung up on that.

338
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:51,200
Right.

339
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,240
And one of the hooks is that there are no computers because they had a massive war against

340
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,120
artificial intelligence.

341
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:03,640
So there are people that they have trained to have computer like memories and computer

342
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:11,600
like capabilities, the Mentats and all of their ships are driven by navigators, which

343
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,880
are people that float about in tanks of spice gas.

344
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:16,880
Yes.

345
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,800
And that gives them semi-percheance to go through fold space.

346
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:27,200
Yes, which is more or less hyperspace or light speed and they don't run into planets or

347
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:28,200
asteroids.

348
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,240
I think the other important thing we need to mention right now, right off the bat is

349
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:37,560
this is a sci-fi series that includes zero aliens.

350
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:42,400
There is zero aliens and nearly no people who are not white.

351
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,360
Yeah, I guess.

352
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:49,720
But yeah, and more importantly is there's no aliens.

353
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:55,440
And so, but because of the 10,000 years in the future and everything and going out into

354
00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:01,480
space, definitely there are different factions that may appear less human than others.

355
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:07,560
Like the navigators are thin bodies floating in things with huge heads that don't necessarily

356
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,760
look human, but they started out as human.

357
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,680
Like every person in this story started out as human.

358
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:22,660
Yes, and the Tlaksu are elven looking gray skinned people and the Benedjessert are largely

359
00:19:22,660 --> 00:19:25,840
extremely attractive super women.

360
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,760
That want to breed you, but only for the program.

361
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:29,760
Right.

362
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:30,840
I wouldn't say there are no white people.

363
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:36,760
It's just it's so far in the future that society is now homogenous racially largely.

364
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:42,760
It's not mentioned a whole lot, you know, the Fremen are brown skinned because they

365
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:48,360
live in a desert, but they also have red hair, which historically is accurate because there

366
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,320
were red haired Mongolians back in the day.

367
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,040
And I'm pretty sure there's still are.

368
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:54,720
So it's not unheard of.

369
00:19:54,720 --> 00:20:01,840
And you know, it's largely homogenous, but in any case, the ruling factions are all men.

370
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:07,920
All the rulers are men, but they're also men who are usually married to Benedjesserts and

371
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,160
who are products of the Benedjessert breeding program.

372
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,680
So the Benedjesserts are like the under power group running everything.

373
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:16,680
Yeah.

374
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,400
I mean, more so like the shadow, the shadow power group, because I think even in the first

375
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,600
student book, Emperor Shaddam was a Benedjessert.

376
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,160
Like all the great houses were part of the Benedjessert breeding program, whether they

377
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,160
knew it or not.

378
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:36,100
Shaddam's wife was a Benedjessert and his mother, I think, was a Benedjessert.

379
00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:41,320
So these women are there all the time.

380
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:46,320
And this might be a spoiler, but I already did the spoiler alert up top, but Lady Jessica

381
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,040
is the daughter of the Baron Harkonnen.

382
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:56,280
So the Benedjessert breeding program doesn't really care about your last name, but they

383
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:02,980
care about your lineage and they want to take the best genetic material from each house

384
00:21:02,980 --> 00:21:07,960
or each line because their ultimate goal was to create the, and you can say it because

385
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,240
you listened to it, the Kwiswetch Hattarach.

386
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,520
Kwiswetch Hattarach.

387
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:14,520
Yes.

388
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:15,520
Yes.

389
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:20,480
Their ultimate goal is to create a man that can survive the spice agony, essentially.

390
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,400
Sometimes they say, you know, the shortening of the way, the man who can look into the

391
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,080
darkness that no Benedjessert can go, all this nonsense.

392
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:35,380
All it is is a man who can survive the spice agony and control his molecular processes.

393
00:21:35,380 --> 00:21:40,600
But also can have the other memory of both male and female lineages.

394
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:41,600
Absolutely.

395
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:49,560
Because the Benedjessert can only tap into the female other memory of their lineage.

396
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,080
And the Benedjessert also do something called sharing.

397
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:57,600
So you can, one Benedjessert might be of one lineage and has all those other memory, but

398
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,040
if they share with somebody of another lineage, they have all their other memory too.

399
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:08,720
So it's almost like downloading other data files, which is very interesting with the

400
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:14,040
way the last two books turned out or the last three even kind of, you know, like the last

401
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,100
one Frank wrote was leaning in this direction and stuff.

402
00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:23,160
So it's kind of interesting that the Benedjessert would download or, you know, share.

403
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:24,160
Yes.

404
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:31,760
So I would say that the first three books are basically a feudal war in space type story.

405
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,460
Yeah, very much so.

406
00:22:33,460 --> 00:22:34,920
And it's very entertaining.

407
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,360
It's very entertaining and it's very political.

408
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:42,100
There's a lot of fucked up stuff that goes on.

409
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:47,020
And one of the things, even in the first book was plans within plans within plans.

410
00:22:47,020 --> 00:22:52,160
So and that's an excellent summation for the whole series, the whole series, because just

411
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,000
because it looks this way on the surface doesn't mean that's how it's going to turn out.

412
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,000
Yeah.

413
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,240
The whole idea is that everybody is a superhuman because of this breeding program.

414
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,680
Everybody who is a ruling person who's making decisions is a superhuman.

415
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:07,680
Yeah.

416
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:08,680
On purpose.

417
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,360
And their machinations are extremely complex.

418
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:15,680
Because they think in eons.

419
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:22,760
So the Benedjessert think in eons and a lot of these male head of houses, even Duke Leto

420
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:29,960
Atreides and Baron Harkonnen and Emperor Shaddam were only thinking kind of in the present

421
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,040
day.

422
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:36,400
They weren't necessarily thinking 100, 200, 10,000 years in the future, right?

423
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:37,400
Right.

424
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,000
The men are very short sighted usually.

425
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,120
But the Benedjessert were and they have been and they always have been and they knew it

426
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:49,600
was going to be a long thing and they get called witches in every single book.

427
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,640
Everybody kind of hates them or despises them.

428
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,480
Not everybody, but a lot of the ruling men do.

429
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,600
Which is weird because they're all products of the Benedjessert.

430
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:01,600
Married to them.

431
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:02,600
Yeah.

432
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:03,600
And mostly married to them.

433
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,960
And have, yeah, they're all tied in with the Benedjessert, all of them.

434
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,440
Even the homosexual men.

435
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,880
Man, I want to, let's talk about that real quick.

436
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:18,640
So I had never read the books and I watched the newest Dune movie, which was, I thought,

437
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:19,640
phenomenal.

438
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:26,760
And they made the Baron, you know, like, but they didn't make the Baron as fucking perverted

439
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,560
and disgusting as he is in the books.

440
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:29,560
I mean, that guy is-

441
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,520
No, he was menacing but he wasn't a child molester, murderer, benedict, torturer, obscenist.

442
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:34,520
Oh my God.

443
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,720
And he had all these young men and he was trying to bang all these young men that looked

444
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,760
exactly like Paul Atreides in the first book.

445
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,840
And he's like, Oh, I'm going to have him back to my chambers because he looks just like

446
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:45,840
Paul.

447
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,720
And it's like, Oh my God.

448
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,160
Also I want to mention, and I don't know if you know this Mike, but the first Dune book,

449
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,280
Frank shopped it around and nobody wanted to publish it.

450
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,440
And it got published by an automotive manual manufacturer or publisher.

451
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,400
I knew that he had issues.

452
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,760
I didn't know that it was an automotive manufacturer though.

453
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:13,480
Yeah, if any of you are car people or gear heads or whatever they call them, if you look,

454
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:19,100
if you pick up a copy of the first Dune book and go to the inner flap, it says, it'll tell

455
00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:20,680
you the first published, right?

456
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:21,960
Cause all books do.

457
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,560
And it's the, it's one of the big automotive manual publishers.

458
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,560
Oh, now I can't remember it.

459
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,540
Yeah, I can't remember it either.

460
00:25:29,540 --> 00:25:30,720
I have a couple of them.

461
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:31,720
I know that.

462
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:32,720
Yeah.

463
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:33,720
Yeah.

464
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:34,720
My four wheeler, my S10.

465
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:35,720
Yeah.

466
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,640
And it's funny because it was like, I saw a meme or something and it was like, Frank's

467
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:40,640
like, Hey, I got this great book.

468
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,640
And all the publishers like, nah, nah.

469
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,000
And then he goes to this automotive handbook publisher and they're like, this is kind of

470
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,000
neat.

471
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,000
Why not?

472
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,640
And they publish it and it becomes like a number one hit.

473
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,960
So JK Rowling had issues too.

474
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:52,960
Yeah.

475
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:53,960
And still does from what I've heard.

476
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,720
But you know, except we're not talking about that.

477
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,080
We're talking about Dune.

478
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,520
But yeah, it sucks you in.

479
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,840
It's kind of like trying to talk about Lord of the Rings.

480
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,840
It's so complex, but the overarching idea is that there's these factions.

481
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,480
So the Tlaksu don't have, well, they don't ultimately have women.

482
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:20,720
They breed through taking women and turning them into machines and having them be baby

483
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,400
factories more or less.

484
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,360
And they don't have women as a factor in their society.

485
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:30,460
Let's talk about that for just a quick second, because that didn't, that revelation didn't

486
00:26:30,460 --> 00:26:34,440
happen until post God Emperor of Dune.

487
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:35,440
Yeah, really.

488
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:43,920
I mean, he just mentioned the Tlaksu had axolotl tanks, axolotl tanks, axolotl tanks.

489
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,440
And the way that it was written, even the Bennett Jesuit, like nobody knew what these

490
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,080
tanks were.

491
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:54,440
And they just kind of like, I don't know, I guess me as a modern day person just assumed

492
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,020
they were, you know, like a cylindrical glass tank full of water, because most tanks in

493
00:26:59,020 --> 00:27:02,160
sci fi movies are cylindrical tanks of water, right?

494
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,160
Or some kind of fluid.

495
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:12,560
And it wasn't until the honored matries that the kind of you finally learned that the Tlaksu

496
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:19,620
thought that women were absolutely zero value, and they would kind of chemically lobotomize

497
00:27:19,620 --> 00:27:28,720
them and turn them into a living, but heavily reliant on, you know, medical applications.

498
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,360
I don't know, oxygenators and things and whatnot, they'd have hooked up to all these medical

499
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:37,280
contraptions, and turn them into basically just living wombs.

500
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:38,280
Yes.

501
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:39,280
And that was it.

502
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,080
Like the brain function would cease, and they would just keep them alive enough to

503
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,720
be a womb.

504
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,800
And that was a huge revelation within the series.

505
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,100
And you don't get there until later.

506
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:54,760
So you have to read several, several books before you even get to that point where like

507
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,080
this is fucked up.

508
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:02,200
Well, it falls within the part of the doing universe is the juxtaposition of opposing

509
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,160
viewpoints that are both wrong.

510
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,540
So you have the Harkonnens and the Atreides.

511
00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:13,920
You have environmentalism versus industrialization.

512
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:19,340
You have the Bene Gesserits that don't believe in love, and men are only sperm donors.

513
00:28:19,340 --> 00:28:25,800
And women rule society versus, you know, the Tlaksu who are the exact opposite.

514
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:34,440
And these that's where Leto, the second, tries to tie it all in and tamper all of these factions

515
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:35,440
down.

516
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,400
Well, that's why Lady Jessica was outcast from the Bene Gesserit in the first few books,

517
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,720
because she chose love over the Bene Gesserit way.

518
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:44,720
Yes.

519
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:50,440
And she chose to have Paul instead of terminating that pregnancy to have a female, because the

520
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,920
Bene Gesserits were supposed to only have females.

521
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:53,920
Yes.

522
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,320
Well, they could have males, but only if they knew.

523
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:58,320
Yeah.

524
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:04,400
And if they knew it was to be if it was going to be a potential that word, the K.H.

525
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:05,400
Quizzact Haderach.

526
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:06,400
Yes.

527
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,720
And Mike's listened to the audiobook and I only read it.

528
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,000
So I don't want to keep butchering butchering the term.

529
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,200
But it does it does come up in most every book.

530
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,600
So you know, but I'm sure you had a pigeon in your head of what it was.

531
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:20,680
Yeah.

532
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,880
And she she chose to have Paul, much to the dismay of the Bene Gesserit.

533
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:30,760
And he chose ultimately love over the Bene Gesserit way, even though he survived the

534
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,760
spice agony and was quote unquote a full Reverend Mother, I guess.

535
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:35,760
Right.

536
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:36,960
For lack of a better term.

537
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,320
And he chose Chani over Princess Erulin.

538
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:42,320
Erulan.

539
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,320
Okay.

540
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,640
This will be a common theme in this episode.

541
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,520
Mike will correct my pronunciations of all of the names.

542
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:50,520
It's not correcting.

543
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:56,800
So that people know Princess Erulin who was physically perfect because she was a product

544
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,160
of the Bene Gesserit breeding program.

545
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:00,240
Yes.

546
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:06,360
And I thought the interesting thing was that Paul was kind of a massive, massive dick to

547
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:07,640
her.

548
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,600
And in the end, she chose Paul's side.

549
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:11,600
Yes.

550
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:17,400
Well, in the extended Dune universe, there's a lot of more information that gets out there.

551
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,400
Of course.

552
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:19,400
Okay.

553
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,400
Yeah, for sure.

554
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,360
And they wasn't that much of a dick to her, but she was also a dick to him because she

555
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,840
put Chani on birth control.

556
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:25,840
Well, yeah.

557
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:26,840
I mean, I'm not saying.

558
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,520
Which you wouldn't think would be possible in that universe.

559
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,040
You wouldn't think that would be possible.

560
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,040
But yeah.

561
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,200
Well, and that's the whole thing is there's a lot of things that are possible in this

562
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:43,160
universe that kind of defy logic or even the universe itself that he set up.

563
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,320
So but it's all plans within plans within plans.

564
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:52,400
And even in the last couple of books, they have so we can talk about face dancers real

565
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:58,560
quick is that Tilexu developed face dancers and they can mimic other people just by just

566
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,160
by a touch, like you shake their hands and then they can mimic you, your look, the appearance

567
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,200
and voice and in some cases, memories, I guess.

568
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:13,320
And the kind of the culmination is there's these new breed of face dancers that are almost

569
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,840
undetectable even by truth sayers and the Bennett Jesuit have truth sayers who dope

570
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:23,160
up on the spice and can basically tell if you're lying or not.

571
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:31,080
And these new face dancers could even fool the truth sayers, which it wasn't hammered

572
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,840
home, which I really enjoyed about the whole series is nothing was really hammered home

573
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:41,080
as a modern modern movie or book or something would be today where you have to like lay

574
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,160
it out and lay it out again and remind the reader again that this is why.

575
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:52,520
But there was something in the last book that Eramis correct me Mike on the pronunciation.

576
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,240
You're so far off that I don't who's who's Eramis?

577
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,120
Omnius is counterpart.

578
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,120
Oh Erasmus.

579
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,480
Oh my god.

580
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:00,480
Okay.

581
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:01,480
Erasmus.

582
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:02,480
Erasmus right?

583
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,480
I know.

584
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,080
So Erasmus said something just fleetingly.

585
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:19,440
It was one sentence and he said that the new face dancers were so much sleeper cell agents

586
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,160
that a lot of them believed that they were human.

587
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,400
They didn't even know they were face dancers.

588
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,840
So that's how they could beat the truth sayers.

589
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,720
But it was like one sentence, one bit of dialogue in the last book.

590
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:37,600
And it explained how the rabbi could have gone so long and detected as a face dancer

591
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,880
because on the no ship that Duncan was on after they fled chapter house, they had a

592
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:50,520
saboteur saboteur and saboteurs had saboteurs because how it was also a face dancer who

593
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:51,520
that is correct.

594
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,680
He was few for how it.

595
00:32:53,680 --> 00:33:01,080
Yes, and but they had their they used the last bit of their melange melange melange.

596
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,120
Oh, yeah.

597
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,120
I like when my wife wears melange melange array.

598
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:14,920
And anyway, but the only way to defeat a truth sayer would be to fully believe right your

599
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:15,920
story.

600
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:16,920
And that's kind of what they relied on.

601
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:22,160
But the Bennett Jesuit on the no ship consumed the last bit of their ultra potent spice to

602
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,400
do the big truth trials with the entire population of the ship, which had been out in the universe

603
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,720
for what, 25 years, something like that.

604
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,880
And I remember they landed on a planet and they were like, this is the first time some

605
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,440
of the population has ever been on a planet because, you know, they're on a no ship for

606
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,680
25 years, they're going to bang and the Bennett Jesuit are going to keep their breeding program

607
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:42,680
going.

608
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:47,620
So they're going to keep creating their breeding program and keep creating kids and things

609
00:33:47,620 --> 00:33:54,880
because they were hoping to be the new seed of the Bennett Jesuit chapter house somewhere.

610
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,120
But it's things like that where it's like this the one sentence and they don't hammer

611
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,120
at home.

612
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,680
It's just like if you're paying attention, you're like, oh, okay.

613
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:08,040
So they designed these new face dancers to actually believe they were who they were pretending

614
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,040
to be.

615
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,440
And they didn't even know they were a face dancer necessarily.

616
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:17,580
Yeah, that's one of the things I really appreciated about doing as a adult reader was the so

617
00:34:17,580 --> 00:34:20,520
little T and the lack of hand holding.

618
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:26,120
So I didn't notice this the first time I went through the series, but I did the second Norma

619
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,400
Senva was mentioned in God, Emperor of Dune.

620
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,100
And then she was like in one line and then she was mentioned again in chapter house or

621
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:39,660
heretics and then she shows up again in Sandworms of Dune.

622
00:34:39,660 --> 00:34:42,120
And she's a super important character in the last book.

623
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,400
Yeah, the Oracle of Time.

624
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,640
You know, the person who invented space travel as we know it and Spice Priscence as we know

625
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,200
it and all this important stuff.

626
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,360
But there was no hand holding to show you how important this person was.

627
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,240
No, absolutely not.

628
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:06,560
And I'll tell you that we heard about the Butlerian Jihad and it didn't really go into

629
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:13,200
depth about what was all going on until I got to Hunters of Dune, which is the first

630
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,240
book that Brian and Kevin wrote.

631
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:21,880
But they had also previously written the kind of the Butlerian Jihad trilogy with Serena

632
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,040
Butler and everything like that.

633
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,940
And that's the big war against the thinking machines.

634
00:35:26,940 --> 00:35:31,240
And I remember texting you, Mike, and saying, man, I wish I would have read that trilogy

635
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:34,440
before finishing up the series here.

636
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:40,120
But and I'll go back and I'll read these things because, you know, I did enjoy this whole

637
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:45,640
series, but that's kind of outside the main scope of the main timeline.

638
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,520
So you don't necessarily have to.

639
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,840
But I feel like the last two books would have been a little bit more impactful had I read

640
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:52,840
that that trilogy.

641
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:53,840
Right.

642
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,320
And I have read the trilogy and it is good.

643
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,840
So as an aside, I'm definitely halfway through.

644
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:00,840
Oh, me too.

645
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:01,840
Definitely halfway through my cigar.

646
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:02,840
And I like it.

647
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:03,840
It's fantastic.

648
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:09,800
I don't think there's been a flavor change, but it's been consistent.

649
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,920
Mine's getting darker.

650
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:13,480
It's getting stronger and darker.

651
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:14,480
And I like it.

652
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:15,920
You know what I just said?

653
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,840
I just said I don't think there's been a flavor change.

654
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,640
And I took a big puff and I'm like, this is darker now.

655
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,320
So I think I just hit that flavor change.

656
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,680
So anyway, yeah, they don't handhold you.

657
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:33,400
And we all know about the Butlerian Jihad because the strictures of not creating a machine

658
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,760
that thinks like a man is ever present.

659
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,520
But we don't really know anything about the characters who are involved with the Jihad.

660
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:42,920
Yes.

661
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,560
Which makes a big comeback.

662
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,320
It does a huge comeback in the last two books or last three really, because Frank was setting

663
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:56,400
it up in the last one that he wrote with the Tachyonnet and fleeing Chapter House and being

664
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,400
searched for.

665
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,280
But I was going to say that this was it?

666
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:01,760
Is it Norma?

667
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,120
Yes.

668
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,560
Because she invented the, I don't know, the Holtzman engines.

669
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,480
But they're named after Holtzman.

670
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,880
So I kind of want to read that story about how she invented it.

671
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,200
But this guy Holtzman, like, took credit.

672
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,080
That is the Butlerian Jihad trilogy.

673
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,080
Okay.

674
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,480
So that's definitely one that I need to read.

675
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,840
But that was very, very interesting.

676
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,240
And yeah, I think everything's super interesting.

677
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:37,600
You know, they kind of bring you in with Dune and Spice is really interesting and the things

678
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,640
that it can do.

679
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:45,120
Spice is gasoline or petroleum, petroleum, because everything is made from Spice, just

680
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,960
like everything is made from petroleum in our modern society.

681
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,240
Like I say, there's messages in there about society.

682
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:54,800
It's just not, you have to analyze it.

683
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:56,720
Well, it's not heavy handed.

684
00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:57,720
No, no.

685
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:04,080
Dune had to be rewritten because the first version was a little heavy handed with the

686
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,720
Spice is petroleum concept.

687
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:08,120
Okay.

688
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,960
And the planetologist was the main character, not Paul.

689
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:12,960
Okay.

690
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:18,080
So I wanted to talk about Liet Kienz briefly.

691
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:23,840
And you and I had a little bit of a disagreement on the new Dune movie.

692
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,520
And you were upset that they made Liet Kienz a female.

693
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,240
And I said, well, that doesn't bother me.

694
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:34,320
And you said, oh, but it will.

695
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,400
And I've read all eight books and it still doesn't bother me that Liet Kienz was a female

696
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,400
in the movie.

697
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:47,760
It bothers me because in the Dune universe, all powerful women are Ben-Jezerit and Liet

698
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,760
Kienz isn't a Ben-Jezer woman.

699
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,040
You know what I mean?

700
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,720
Like that's part of the universe.

701
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:54,720
But she's Fremen.

702
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:55,720
That's true.

703
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:56,720
Or he's Fremen.

704
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:58,960
Well, he's Fremen, she's Fremen.

705
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,440
I will make an exception for that.

706
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,720
I've watched the Dune movie now again, twice, I think.

707
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:09,320
And I'm a lot more, I'm a bigger fan of it now than I was the first time I watched it.

708
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,560
And the first time I watched it, I really liked it.

709
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:12,560
So yeah.

710
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,680
And I really liked the Dune, the new Dune movie.

711
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,540
And I'm excited for the second part.

712
00:39:19,540 --> 00:39:23,160
I know they're not going to, if they're taking two movies to do the first book, there's no

713
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,120
way they're going to do all eight of the books.

714
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:31,200
No, I think that our best case scenario is they'll go through Children of Dune and then

715
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:32,200
be done with it.

716
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:38,380
And they might do a little preview of God Emperor, you know, just like a flash of Leto

717
00:39:38,380 --> 00:39:40,120
is full sandworm.

718
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:41,120
Yeah.

719
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,120
But, and that's fine.

720
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:43,120
I mean, and who knows?

721
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:48,080
They might do a Netflix mini-series or something that kind of like rounds out the rest of it,

722
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,360
but it won't be the original actors from the movie.

723
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,520
HBO might do a series.

724
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:53,520
Yeah.

725
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:54,760
Somebody, somebody might do one.

726
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,400
Well, HBO owns the rights.

727
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:57,400
Oh, okay.

728
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:58,400
I didn't know that.

729
00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,400
Yeah.

730
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:00,400
There's good odds that it'll be good.

731
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:01,400
Yeah.

732
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,640
I was just saying like, you know, in today's society, if you've got a good, good story

733
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,600
and a good IP, there's a good chance somebody's going to pick it up and do a mini-series.

734
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,280
So, but I didn't know HBO owned the rights.

735
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:18,160
I would, if HBO came up with a Dune mini-series, I would pay for HBO.

736
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,160
So but I'm a Dune fan.

737
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:26,800
So, but going back to Liet Keynes, Liet Keynes comes back in the last two books because the

738
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:33,160
Benedicessarate fully embraced the Gola program and they get volunteers from amongst their

739
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,080
ranks to be converted to these tanks.

740
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:42,400
And it's a kind of a major plot point because they pick up this group of Jews led by the

741
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,080
rabbi who is a face dancer.

742
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:47,080
Becomes a face dancer.

743
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:52,480
Yes, that we find out later and becomes one of the new face dancers as almost undetectable.

744
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,520
And his chosen woman became a Benedicessarate and then volunteered to be a tank.

745
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:05,200
And so he felt this huge amount of grief and whatever remorse and refused to leave her

746
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,240
side even when she was a tank and basically brain dead.

747
00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:13,840
But they embrace their own program and they bring back all of these people from history

748
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:20,280
because lo and behold the Tlaxu have been gathering samples shortly after the deaths

749
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,080
of all of these people.

750
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:27,080
And you have to gather the cells right after the death to get all of their life memories

751
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:32,720
back because that's a huge part of the Gola program is you have to reinstate their memories

752
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:36,580
so they can fully become who they were to begin with.

753
00:41:36,580 --> 00:41:42,520
And so they bring back Stilgar and Liet Keynes and even in their Gola lives, there's no reason

754
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,120
Liet Keynes couldn't have been a woman.

755
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:50,440
So I think I think that switch was perfectly fine with me.

756
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:51,880
It's not that it's not fine.

757
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:57,040
I just I think it hurts the gender politics between the Benedicessarate and the Tlaxu

758
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,840
because there's that juxtaposition and it will never be explored in the movies.

759
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,160
So for the movie context, it's fine.

760
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,640
Yeah, I guess.

761
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,200
Well, but they had cells of Lady Jessica.

762
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:11,560
So I don't know why they wouldn't.

763
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,680
Yeah, and I don't know why they wouldn't have taken cells from Liet Keynes regardless of

764
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:15,680
gender.

765
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:16,960
It's not regardless of gender.

766
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:22,080
It's just it takes away from the internal politics of the universe.

767
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,080
You know what I mean?

768
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,560
It's not like I die hard against it.

769
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,280
I just I mean, I guess I don't really see when it comes to that.

770
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,840
I don't really see how it takes away from the gender politics of the universe because

771
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,280
you have a Serena Butler and you have Lady Jessica.

772
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,540
And I mean, I guess I don't know Serena Butler's background if she was Benedicessarate or not,

773
00:42:42,540 --> 00:42:44,700
because that was so far in the past.

774
00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:46,920
She was pre-Benedicessarate order.

775
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,400
Pre-Benedicessarate.

776
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:53,840
But a big name and Lady Jessica was only a big name because she kind of stood against

777
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:59,680
the Benedicessarate and she was the mother of Paul.

778
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,320
And they had Chinese DNA.

779
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,640
So yeah, and she was a Fremen woman, but she was linked to Paul.

780
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,240
And Liet Keynes was father of Cheney.

781
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:14,440
And if Liet Keynes was mother of Cheney, I don't see why that would be a big issue.

782
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:15,840
Oh, it's not.

783
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:16,840
It's not.

784
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,800
It's not a issue of damaging the story.

785
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:25,240
It's more of I like the paradigm of the Tlaksu versus the Benedicessarate a lot.

786
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:26,240
I think it's hilarious.

787
00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:27,240
Oh, I like it too.

788
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:29,240
They're both evil in their own way.

789
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,000
You know what I mean?

790
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,840
Even in the books, it's well, even the books when you're reading, it's very clear that

791
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,480
they're both not good.

792
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,560
There are no good guys, quote unquote, in the doing universe.

793
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,880
Everybody is a bad guy, including the Atreides, who are supposed to be the good guys.

794
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:52,120
Well, even people that are trying to be good are still villain vilified or villainified

795
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,360
or whatever the word is.

796
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,240
Yes, they have villainous behavior.

797
00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:57,680
Nobody is a pure actor.

798
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,840
Paul Atreides is not a perfect person.

799
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:00,840
No.

800
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,800
And I think part of it is because they set up or he sets up this very, like you said,

801
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:12,880
very faction based, almost feudal landscape where, you know, the Atreides value honor

802
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,200
and loyalty to a fault in a lot of cases.

803
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:24,760
I mean, that's how you get a million Golas of Duncan, Idaho and Lado too, just unceremoniously

804
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,440
murders them and orders another one cooking, you know?

805
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:33,600
So he had like a standing order of he always had Duncan Golas ready to go whenever he felt

806
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:40,120
like killing the one because the one got too knowledgeable or, you know, had issue, moral

807
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,320
issue with the path Lado too was taking.

808
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:50,000
They mentioned one time later that Duncan, Idaho only lived a handful of full lives where

809
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,720
he died peacefully in bed out of the 10,000 lives of Duncan, Idaho.

810
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:56,720
Yes.

811
00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:02,640
Well, that was super interesting because later on they say that they managed to the Tlaxu

812
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:09,960
managed to culminate all of Duncan's other lives into their current Gola, whatever current

813
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:11,280
Gola they were growing.

814
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:17,440
So it was, it was their own Tlaxu kind of breeding program almost in a sense where they

815
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:22,080
kept tweaking him and the Tlaxu would keep building in different things to their Golas

816
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,000
to fit their own designs.

817
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,240
And it also needs to be said that the Tlaxu were Golas themselves.

818
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:30,240
Yes.

819
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:31,240
Yes, of course.

820
00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:38,280
And that was interesting because like Skytail and Waif have very short lifespans because

821
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:43,600
of the accelerated stuff, but that, but on Tlaxu, they always had all of the tanks ready

822
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,640
and they had other Golas growing.

823
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:52,960
So it didn't necessarily matter if their lifespan was 20 years versus 80 years or with the spice

824
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:59,160
life enhancing, you know, capabilities, a hundred years or 200 years or whatever it

825
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:00,160
was.

826
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,160
They were always ready to go.

827
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,880
Tag lived 300 years and he did not use spice.

828
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:09,840
Through the breeding program, they led naturally longer and longer and longer lives.

829
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:15,720
I think it was mentioned that the Fremen routinely lived to be 180 and they didn't have a breeding

830
00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:16,720
program.

831
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:19,960
Well, and that I think, well, but they use spice.

832
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,440
That they use, they use spice.

833
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:22,440
Yeah.

834
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:23,800
So a double the natural lifespan.

835
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:24,800
Yes.

836
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:29,800
Spice gives you an extra 90 years or a hundred years or so depending, you know, lifespans

837
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:35,960
are interesting because even today, the lifespan is largely dependent on country that you live

838
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,920
in and, and your own genealogy, of course, but

839
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,680
And your lifestyle and your lifestyle, obviously.

840
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:43,680
Yes.

841
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:44,680
Yes.

842
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:45,680
Yeah.

843
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:47,440
I, uh, I'm glad that you really enjoyed Dune.

844
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:48,440
I did.

845
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,360
I'm excited to read at least the Butlerian Jihad.

846
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,080
I know they did a whole bunch of house books.

847
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:58,320
They did House Harkonnen and House of Trades and they've done what?

848
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:03,280
Ben and Jezret, Ben and Jezret book and some other, some other books.

849
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:04,280
So

850
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:05,280
Yeah.

851
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:12,440
So the house books, uh, Atreides, Harkonnen and Carino take place before Dune, the original

852
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,440
book.

853
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:18,600
And then there's the, uh, Butlerian Jihad trilogy that takes place like thousands of

854
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,680
years beforehand.

855
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:25,760
And then they have the Caladan series, uh, which is just coming out now.

856
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,120
And I'm just starting that one.

857
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,120
I haven't read it.

858
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,280
And then they have Mentats, Navigators and Sisterhood.

859
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:36,120
And that takes place after the Jihad, almost immediately after the Jihad.

860
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,120
Okay.

861
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,520
The Butlerian Jihad or Paul's Jihad?

862
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:40,520
Butlerian Jihad.

863
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:41,520
Okay.

864
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:46,800
It's the Sisterhood, the Mentats and the Navigators is kind of like the creation of the society

865
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,600
post Butlerian Jihad.

866
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:49,600
Okay.

867
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,200
So the creation of the factions.

868
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:52,240
Yep.

869
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:53,240
The creation of the factions.

870
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:56,720
How it kind of, how the lands rod got created.

871
00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:58,960
The lands rod for, we haven't mentioned it.

872
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:06,040
The lands rod is this, uh, house or it's like a Senate with all the major houses.

873
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:07,040
It's like a parliament.

874
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,040
Yeah.

875
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:13,960
And, uh, the idea is that the lands rod and the Imperial court have equal levels of military

876
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:18,200
power as a, they're like equals quote unquote.

877
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:19,200
Yeah.

878
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,200
And then you have CHOM.

879
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,200
Yep.

880
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,520
You have CHOM, which is the banking guild.

881
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,080
And they're the ones that control all the spice.

882
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,040
And you have the spacing guild.

883
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,040
Yep.

884
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,600
The navigators guild who are the only ones who can do interstellar travel.

885
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:35,940
For a time.

886
00:48:35,940 --> 00:48:36,940
For a time.

887
00:48:36,940 --> 00:48:37,940
The Ixians.

888
00:48:37,940 --> 00:48:38,940
Not even initially.

889
00:48:38,940 --> 00:48:39,940
Yeah.

890
00:48:39,940 --> 00:48:40,940
Yes.

891
00:48:40,940 --> 00:48:41,940
Yeah.

892
00:48:41,940 --> 00:48:43,200
And we didn't talk about the Ixians yet, but they do technology.

893
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,920
So they do everything short of creating a thinking machine.

894
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:52,440
And in God Emperor of Dune, Leto II is relying on them to basically build thinking machines

895
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:57,440
for him going against the convention against thinking machines.

896
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:58,440
Yes.

897
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:03,560
Ix and the Richazis both build technology, but there are also houses in the lands rod

898
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,760
that just happens to be their specialty.

899
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,520
Each of the houses owns a certain number of planets and they specialize in whatever they're

900
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,920
selling to all the other groups.

901
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:13,920
Yes.

902
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:20,400
And after, so after the God Emperor of Dune, he kind of set off what they call the scattering.

903
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:26,720
And so you have the old empire, which is kind of all the planets in the first three Dune

904
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:27,720
books.

905
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:32,320
And then after that, people scatter and go everywhere.

906
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:39,960
So the face dancers go out and they kind of create this group of handlers and I'm trying

907
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:41,960
to remember the name of those things, the futars.

908
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,080
Futars, yep.

909
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:45,080
But they're all human.

910
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,320
Like they all started as human, but it's been thousands of years, like, you know, tens of

911
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,600
thousands of years or whatever it's been.

912
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,680
And so these humans have developed to be more animalistic.

913
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,440
And it's the same with the, can't remember what they're, what they're called, but the

914
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,440
divers, the diving population on the planet that gets the sooth stones.

915
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,840
Yeah, I can't remember.

916
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:11,000
They're almost like, yes, they're almost like the futars because they're more animalistic,

917
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:17,760
but they still started as human at one point in time because there's no aliens in the whole

918
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:18,900
series.

919
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:23,680
It's all kind of evolution or breeding that has driven these big crevices.

920
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:24,680
More machines.

921
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:25,680
More machines.

922
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,400
The machines come in and we haven't talked about the machines yet and we should because

923
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:34,480
that's kind of the culmination of the thing because it's almost the second machine, but

924
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,880
Larry and Jihad type of thing.

925
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:37,880
Yes.

926
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:44,360
So the scattering sent all these beings out and they came into contact with Omnius's empire.

927
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:51,120
And that's how the face dancers, the super duper face dancers were created by Omnius,

928
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:52,720
well, by Erasmus.

929
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:53,720
Yes.

930
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:58,000
And Omnius was the, what, the OG thinking machine.

931
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:02,800
And he created like different nodes of himself and survived the Belarion Jihad.

932
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:09,800
And Erasmus was more, I don't know, I would almost, I would almost, if we're doing like

933
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:17,200
modern day comparisons, Omnius is maybe more of a Trump and Erasmus is more of like a shadow

934
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,820
player kind of like pulling the puppet strings.

935
00:51:19,820 --> 00:51:26,480
So he knows Omnius's weaknesses and strengths and fed him data to let him quote unquote

936
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:33,200
jump to his own conclusions to do things that would only better Erasmus's ultimate goals.

937
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:34,200
Yes.

938
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,600
Erasmus was an independent robot.

939
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:37,600
Yes.

940
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:43,800
He was more interested in, so all the new face dancers would come back and basically

941
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:49,440
download all of the data of all of the humans that they had interacted with, all of their

942
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,080
other memory quote unquote, right?

943
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:57,960
And Erasmus would download that because he was trying to figure out the core of humanity,

944
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,780
basically, like what, like humans were fascinating to him and he wanted to understand everything

945
00:52:02,780 --> 00:52:04,480
there was to know.

946
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:11,200
And I really liked the last interactions between Duncan and Erasmus in the last book.

947
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,840
Yes, I like them too.

948
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,760
It makes a lot more sense after you read the Belairean Jihad.

949
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:18,760
I'm not going to lie.

950
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,200
But yeah, I felt very interesting.

951
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:22,200
Yes.

952
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:27,040
And if you look at when they were published, I think, yeah, the Belairean Jihad was published

953
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,240
before Sandworms and Hunters of Doom.

954
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:34,240
Yeah, because I think they didn't find those outlines until after they'd started publishing

955
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:35,240
other things.

956
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:39,520
Yeah, the outlines were found in a safety deposit box or something like that.

957
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,040
Yeah, it was wild.

958
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:42,040
Yeah.

959
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,880
But they had started publishing like these side things based on other note scraps that

960
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:47,200
Frank had made.

961
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,240
And so they took those and kind of ran with them.

962
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:53,280
And then they found the outline for like the conclusion of the main timeline.

963
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:54,520
So I kind of wove it all together.

964
00:52:54,520 --> 00:53:01,560
And I never really felt like I had to read other stuff in Dune until I read Hunters of

965
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:06,640
Doom in the first two chapters, I'm like, fuck, I should have read the Belairean Jihad

966
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:12,280
books before starting this, because that's when they started leaning heavily into that.

967
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,160
And you know, it makes sense because they wrote those and they want to like get you

968
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:17,720
to read them on one hand.

969
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:23,240
But maybe that was truly Frank's vision was to tie the Belairean Jihad back into the conclusion

970
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:24,720
of the Dune main timeline.

971
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:28,680
So oh, there's no doubt there's enough droppings.

972
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:34,960
Oh, that's not a very nice way to put it, but droppings in the Frank Herbert written

973
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:40,440
series to where it all ties in with the wheels within wheels that is Dune.

974
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:41,440
Yeah.

975
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:46,120
And it's so I'm not saying it's super complex, but it is wheels within wheels.

976
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:47,800
That's how everything operates.

977
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:48,800
Yes.

978
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:55,720
There's a lot of I don't know, I would almost say this is sci fi second and kind of like

979
00:53:55,720 --> 00:54:02,600
political thriller first in some sense of the thing, because it depends on how you want

980
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:03,600
to read it.

981
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,920
But if you're going to read the whole full on thing, it's almost more political than

982
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:07,920
it is sci fi.

983
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,520
I mean, it's definitely sci fi setting.

984
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:16,440
It's a sci fi setting for a political intrigue type story.

985
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,160
The sci fi is almost secondary.

986
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,720
And I mean, it kind of punches all the buttons and things I like, like I like sci fi and

987
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:28,640
I really enjoy the political intrigue where, you know, people's motives and goals aren't

988
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,480
clear upfront.

989
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:35,760
And it takes you some time to understand the complexities of everything, because even though

990
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:40,880
there's only there's a limited like a finite number of factions, they all have kind of

991
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,400
long term goals.

992
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:48,720
Outside of some of the male leaders, you know, like Duke Leto Atreides, what did he want?

993
00:54:48,720 --> 00:54:55,240
He wanted to use desert power and keep banging his hot wife, Lady Jessica, you know, Baron

994
00:54:55,240 --> 00:55:00,440
Harkonnen wanted to keep banging underage dudes that look like Paul and rape and torture

995
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:06,920
and murder and be all that stuff, you know, and it was interesting because like they brought

996
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:14,600
back not they but like the face dancers brought back Baron Harkonnen and he got to start turning

997
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:22,440
Caledon into an industrial wasteland so he was kind of how maybe the America, the United

998
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:27,480
States of the universe where he wanted to turn everything into like an industrial hellscape

999
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,000
and then rape and torture people.

1000
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:30,000
Oh, yes.

1001
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:37,240
Dune, just like Lord of the Rings definitely has an anti, not anti capitalistic, but anti

1002
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:40,720
all out rape and pillage attitude, you know,

1003
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:47,600
Yeah, so the destruction of the natural environment, so yeah, it was very pro ecology.

1004
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:52,440
And I read somewhere that Frank was very interested in, I don't know if terraforming is the right

1005
00:55:52,440 --> 00:56:00,560
word but kind of like the ecological cycles and that's why Dune was, you know, so pivotal.

1006
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:05,040
Frank Herbert was a Republican too, interestingly enough, he was like a campaign manager for

1007
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,360
several Republicans before he was.

1008
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:08,360
Oh, okay.

1009
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,800
He was always a writer, but yeah, he was a Republican and he was a speechwriter.

1010
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:18,080
So he was like old school Republican though before it was all about like the modern Republican

1011
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:19,080
Party, you know what I mean?

1012
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:23,520
He was like the hangover from the FDR years style Republican.

1013
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:24,520
Yeah, yeah.

1014
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:30,520
Yeah, where it was a little bit more, in my opinion, reasonable, but very interesting.

1015
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:35,000
I read the Frank Herbert biography by Brian Herbert as well.

1016
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,000
Okay.

1017
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,080
So, and that's a good read too.

1018
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,200
Okay, yeah.

1019
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:41,600
Off to delve more into it.

1020
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:47,240
I know the eight books for me, they weren't really a struggle because I thoroughly enjoyed

1021
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:51,240
all of them, even the ones that I rated a four out of five instead of a five out of

1022
00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:59,680
five, but I mean, so it is eight books and outside of the follow up to Dune, which is

1023
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:04,520
very, very short, Dune Messiah, I think, was the shortest of the whole bunch.

1024
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:05,520
Yes.

1025
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,320
So it's a lot of time spent in that universe.

1026
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:15,920
And so there is some kind of, you know, universe or IP fatigue kind of going through all eight

1027
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:16,920
of them.

1028
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:21,800
Well, yeah, the first six books took 20 years.

1029
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:26,680
And then the last two you read were 20 years after that.

1030
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:31,960
So, yeah, there's definitely when you read them all as a group, it's kind of like reading

1031
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:33,180
Harry Potter.

1032
00:57:33,180 --> 00:57:38,540
Even one book a year was the thing, it was a lot easier to read all the Harry Potters.

1033
00:57:38,540 --> 00:57:43,320
Now if we were to sit down, granted they're young adult novels, I could probably read

1034
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,640
them in a month, but I'm sure I'd get tired of reading Harry Potter.

1035
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:53,480
Yeah, and I only read Harry Potter after they're all done and after the movies were mostly

1036
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:59,680
done and I didn't really get the fatigue with them because they're written for the age group

1037
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,120
that the main characters were.

1038
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:07,640
So the first one is kind of very much like, you know, I don't know, middle school-ish

1039
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:13,240
level and then it kind of ramps up, but you're only ever getting to like high school level.

1040
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:19,360
Whereas Dune, there's so much going on and so many different factions and so much political

1041
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:23,720
things going on in the background that aren't and they're not handed to you.

1042
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:28,080
So it is a little bit of work to try and like keep all this stuff in your mind as you're

1043
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:29,080
reading through them.

1044
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:33,880
So when you get four books in, you're like, I've been spending an awful lot of time in

1045
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:34,880
this universe.

1046
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,440
I kind of need to read something else before I get to the next book.

1047
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,320
So it took me a while.

1048
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:42,320
Let me pull it up.

1049
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:43,320
I will tell you.

1050
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:47,920
Dune actually changed the way that I interact with people at work.

1051
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:48,920
Isn't that interesting?

1052
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,440
I tried to do more wheels and plans within plans.

1053
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:53,440
Oh yes.

1054
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:59,720
Yeah, I definitely did change the way that I do things with like my long-term planning.

1055
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:01,160
So here's what it says.

1056
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:07,540
I read Dune between March of 2022 and April of 2022.

1057
00:59:07,540 --> 00:59:12,020
So it's taken me a full year to read all eight Dune books.

1058
00:59:12,020 --> 00:59:16,760
Not necessarily because of the length, but you know, we read Animal Farm, Slaughterhouse

1059
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:21,240
Five, Lord of the Flies for the podcast in between those.

1060
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,480
And I read a couple other books in between those.

1061
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:31,480
Mostly just as kind of like a break, you know, like I felt almost too involved in Dune and

1062
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,680
I needed kind of like a palate cleanser before I went to the next book.

1063
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:40,120
Not because they're overly laborious, but I mean, it's a lot of stuff to take in.

1064
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,120
Right.

1065
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:45,480
And Dune, they're written for college level readers.

1066
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:46,480
They're not simple.

1067
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:47,480
Yeah, for sure.

1068
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:52,320
I've listened to a lot of audiobooks between, I can tell you that.

1069
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,440
And I've read several books as well.

1070
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,400
I've been on a Chomsky kick lately and it's really depressing.

1071
00:59:58,400 --> 00:59:59,400
Okay.

1072
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,320
I don't think I've read any Gnome Chomsky.

1073
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:06,320
And I know we briefly mentioned that last episode.

1074
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,760
It's fairly predictable, but it's depressing.

1075
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:09,760
Yeah.

1076
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:15,020
I mean, most things are if you think about them.

1077
01:00:15,020 --> 01:00:18,960
Alas, this is a Dune episode and not a depressing episode.

1078
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:22,640
I mean, there's a lot of depressing things in Dune to be fair.

1079
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:23,640
Yeah.

1080
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,560
It's not always, mostly it's not very happy.

1081
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,360
I'm not going to lie.

1082
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:28,360
Yeah.

1083
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:35,560
I was very happy that Leto II was one of the Golas in the last two books.

1084
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:39,840
And like I said, I think he's my favorite character, even though he didn't really play

1085
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:41,880
a huge part.

1086
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:48,200
I guess he did play a huge part in the last two books, in the last book being specific,

1087
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:56,440
because he basically told the sand worms to fuck some shit up on Synacrity, or Synacrity?

1088
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:57,640
The Thinking Machine planet?

1089
01:00:57,640 --> 01:00:58,640
Synchrony.

1090
01:00:58,640 --> 01:00:59,640
I think it's supposed to be Synchrony.

1091
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:00,640
Okay.

1092
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:01,640
Synchrony.

1093
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:02,640
Yeah.

1094
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:03,640
And that was cool.

1095
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:09,580
And then he got to rejoin with his Pearl of Wisdom that in God Emperor of Dune, he sent

1096
01:01:09,580 --> 01:01:14,440
out his consciousness into each then new sand worm.

1097
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,120
So they were all kind of him.

1098
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,720
So he kind of did his own mini Gola project.

1099
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:20,720
But going back...

1100
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:26,120
Yeah, Leto, he was interesting because he was kind of a one man band that had his own

1101
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:27,880
breeding program.

1102
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:33,080
And he had these massive plans that nobody else was aware of that came to fruition in

1103
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:34,080
the end.

1104
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:35,080
So it was really satisfying.

1105
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:36,080
Yeah.

1106
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:39,320
And a lot of the stuff that he, like you said, a lot of stuff that he did came back in the

1107
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:45,280
end and made everything possible and made the conclusion of the entire series possible

1108
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,160
because of what he did.

1109
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:52,720
And it bought Duncan all the time he needed at the end to finally realize, but it took

1110
01:01:52,720 --> 01:02:00,080
Paul to tell Duncan that Duncan was the one to kind of kick Duncan off into his full on

1111
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:04,320
role, which is interesting because that's the whole point of Gola's is you need kind

1112
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:10,720
of like an inciting incident, whether it's like crazy sex with a benedicite or they fucking

1113
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:17,600
drown Stilgar to get his memories back, you know, and a firm and who's who held all water

1114
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,320
sacred and they put him in an excess of water, right?

1115
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,440
To trigger his memories.

1116
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:27,400
And Duncan had all this latent stuff that needed an additional kick.

1117
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,880
Like he already had his Gola memories back, but he needed that additional kick to get

1118
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:36,480
to his full potential.

1119
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:42,320
Which you wouldn't have had if if Lado II hadn't bred the Atreides to be invisible from

1120
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:43,320
prescience.

1121
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:44,320
Yes.

1122
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,500
And like I say, it's well, I think you mentioned it first.

1123
01:02:48,500 --> 01:02:51,760
It's more of a political intrigue story than it is sci-fi.

1124
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:53,440
But it is sci-fi too.

1125
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:54,440
Don't get me wrong.

1126
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:55,440
Oh, for sure.

1127
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:56,440
Yeah.

1128
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,120
But that's a super cool about it.

1129
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,480
I think it's not just sci-fi for sci-fi.

1130
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:06,560
And I would say the original most of the Star Trek's, right?

1131
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:10,680
Like the original Star Trek and Next Generation and stuff like that.

1132
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:16,080
They're all kind of the Star Trek's are kind of like morality plays set in a sci-fi universe

1133
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,040
to make them palatable.

1134
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:24,000
And I don't know that Dune's any different, you know, but they tackle really heavy things

1135
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:25,540
set in a sci-fi thing.

1136
01:03:25,540 --> 01:03:29,600
So it's not like, hey, this is here now, even though it is kind of here now.

1137
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:30,600
Yeah.

1138
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,920
That's what good sci-fi is, though, right?

1139
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:38,680
It's not a story about magic things or technology.

1140
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:42,960
It's a story about important things set in a sci-fi setting to make it palatable.

1141
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:48,280
So it's kind of like Deep Space Nine, which is my favorite Star Trek.

1142
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:53,800
That's a political intrigue story and a war story set in a sci-fi universe.

1143
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,160
Oh, yeah, for sure.

1144
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,440
So I know that I listen to the audio controls the wormhole.

1145
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:04,120
Yeah, he who controls the wormhole controls it all.

1146
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,840
He who controls the spice controls it all.

1147
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:07,840
Right.

1148
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:08,840
Yep.

1149
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,040
Like I say, spices petroleum people.

1150
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:17,600
Well, let's talk about the honored maters for a second, because I thought their origin

1151
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:19,800
story was very fascinating.

1152
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,080
And you don't get that in the first.

1153
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:26,480
And I think that's the great thing about Dune is Dune introduces all these people.

1154
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:30,920
And it's not till a couple of books later that you find out their origin story and who

1155
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:33,160
they are and what they kind of stand for.

1156
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:38,540
And so the honored matries were just kind of these like war hungry women that were crazy.

1157
01:04:38,540 --> 01:04:43,820
And they had and they had their own version of spice, which was adrenaline from their

1158
01:04:43,820 --> 01:04:45,140
dying victims.

1159
01:04:45,140 --> 01:04:49,380
And they would somehow harvest that and ingest that.

1160
01:04:49,380 --> 01:04:55,920
And they had orange flecked eyes instead of the blue and blue of the spice addicts, as

1161
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:56,920
it were.

1162
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:57,920
Yes.

1163
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:01,840
And they started out as a political weapon to control all the men that they interacted

1164
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:02,840
with.

1165
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:03,840
Yes.

1166
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:04,840
And that's disgusting.

1167
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:05,840
And where can I find one?

1168
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:07,840
No, I'm sorry.

1169
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:09,200
Anyway.

1170
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:14,040
And it was interesting because the one of the Duncan golas was trained as an anti honored

1171
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:20,040
matri sex thing so he could break honored matries and things.

1172
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,720
So that was an interesting play as well in there.

1173
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:27,240
But the honored matries started as exodal tanks.

1174
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:28,240
Yep.

1175
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:32,680
They were Tlaatuksu women who were saved.

1176
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,480
And they hated the Tlaatuksu.

1177
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:41,440
And so they got out of their tank status and waged an unholy war on all Tlaatuksu, which

1178
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:46,120
kind of then expanded and spilled out to anybody who stood in their way.

1179
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:53,720
But it's a very sympathetic mission statement, I guess, not that that was their mission statement,

1180
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:58,520
but hearing their origin story, it's hard not to feel empathy for them.

1181
01:05:58,520 --> 01:05:59,520
Yes.

1182
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:00,520
Yeah.

1183
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,400
Which is interesting because it's the same as the Bene Gesserit because in the first

1184
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:08,200
few books, the Bene Gesserit are these evil witches who have these evil plans and do these

1185
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:09,320
evil things.

1186
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:14,400
And then later on, you're rooting for the Bene Gesserit against the honored matries,

1187
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:18,760
against the Tlaatuksu, against the Thinking Machine Army.

1188
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:23,720
And the first few books of honored matries are like, these women are crazy and psychotic

1189
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,280
and evil and evil and evil.

1190
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:30,000
And then you're like, oh, but that's their origin story.

1191
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,240
So maybe they're not as evil as we thought.

1192
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:35,920
And maybe that's the greatest part about Dune is you can get these people that you think

1193
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:38,360
are evil because of what they're doing.

1194
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:44,780
But he's asking you to sit there and think about what led to their decisions.

1195
01:06:44,780 --> 01:06:46,680
And that's the ultimate point of the ultimate book.

1196
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:56,120
The last book is the Duncan is the ultimate Kiswetch Hatterach, right?

1197
01:06:56,120 --> 01:07:00,040
And he's the Sasquatch.

1198
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:01,400
He's the SamSquatch.

1199
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:07,680
And he needs to bridge the gap between the Thinking Machines and the humans, just like

1200
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,280
they had to bridge the gap between the honored matries or Mirbella had to bridge the gap

1201
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,960
between the honored matries and the Bene Gesserit to create the new order.

1202
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:18,720
And just like Paul had to bridge the gap between this and Leto had to bridge the gap between

1203
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:19,720
that.

1204
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:22,080
And it's all about finding that common ground.

1205
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:23,080
Yes.

1206
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:29,160
Well, that's, I think one of the overarching messages is like the middle way.

1207
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:33,680
It's one of those, the middle way is usually the correct way, not the extreme.

1208
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:34,680
Yes.

1209
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:35,680
Find what you can.

1210
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:36,680
By the way.

1211
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:37,680
Oh, go ahead.

1212
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:38,680
Yes.

1213
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:43,320
I was going to say find what you can agree on and then figure out everything else.

1214
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:50,600
And that was kind of the coolest thing about Erasmus was he wasn't bloodthirsty like Omnius

1215
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:59,520
was because he was actually seeking understanding, maybe not in the in the in the correct way.

1216
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:07,320
But I did enjoy Krone when he came all in, he was all like puffed up and like, oh yeah,

1217
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:08,760
well Erasmus, guess what?

1218
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,680
Like we've had our own plans and Erasmus is like laughing at him.

1219
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:17,520
And like there's a whole like couple pages on Erasmus picking the right laughter samples

1220
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:21,000
from his databanks to like laugh in Krone's face.

1221
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,920
And Krone's just getting like saltier and saltier.

1222
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:29,200
And and then Erasmus is like, come on, like you're fucking stupid.

1223
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:30,200
Of course I knew.

1224
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:31,640
Also, I built in a kill switch.

1225
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,520
So you're all fucking dead now.

1226
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:35,840
You know, like it's hilarious.

1227
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,360
Oh, it's fucking funny.

1228
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:41,200
It was a like I say, it had a very satisfying end.

1229
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,040
It was not a Stephen King novel.

1230
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:45,400
Not at all.

1231
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:46,400
Not at all.

1232
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:48,720
Stephen King is good for three quarters of the book.

1233
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:49,720
Mostly.

1234
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:53,480
There's some books that are outside of that outside of that rule.

1235
01:08:53,480 --> 01:08:54,480
But

1236
01:08:54,480 --> 01:08:59,360
The book tower was good all the way up until the last like twenty five pages.

1237
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:04,480
OK, my favorite my favorite Stephen King book is Pet Sematary.

1238
01:09:04,480 --> 01:09:08,880
I think that's that's literary gold.

1239
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:11,720
The other ones, I think the stand is good.

1240
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:17,400
I haven't read some of the other ones, but a lot of the other books are so good.

1241
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:21,440
And then at the very end, he wants to toss in like 13 other things.

1242
01:09:21,440 --> 01:09:26,120
And I always think to myself, man, Stephen, you had me freaked out about this killer clown.

1243
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:30,040
Why are you bringing in a giant spider at the end?

1244
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:31,520
Like I'm all freaked out about the clown.

1245
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,080
I don't need the giant spider.

1246
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:34,080
Just give me the clown thing.

1247
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:35,320
Let's just stick with that.

1248
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:36,320
I like the shining.

1249
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:37,320
The shining was good.

1250
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:39,640
But I think that's the movie, too.

1251
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:43,720
You know, oh, the yeah, the movie, the Stanley Kubrick movie is great.

1252
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:48,040
He hated that one, though, and he made a made for TV one that I've seen that one a lot more

1253
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:49,040
closely.

1254
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:50,040
Yeah.

1255
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:52,720
Anyway, go on with the we're doing Dune.

1256
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:56,720
We're not trying to do Stephen King, but yes, satisfying endings.

1257
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:01,840
I'm in my last half of an inch and I need a roach clip because it's definitely getting

1258
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,280
hot, but it still tastes wonderful in my opinion.

1259
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:05,280
Yeah, this one's great.

1260
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:07,480
And I really enjoy this.

1261
01:10:07,480 --> 01:10:08,480
Phenomenal.

1262
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:12,360
If you see one and you haven't had one, try it.

1263
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:13,360
They're good.

1264
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:14,560
Yes, indeed.

1265
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,080
So anything else you want to talk about doing?

1266
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:21,200
No, just wheels within wheels.

1267
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:25,480
And if you read it, it will change the way you interact with the world, especially when

1268
01:10:25,480 --> 01:10:32,400
you're trying to do long term planning with people that you perceive as nefarious actors.

1269
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:34,480
Or even people you perceive as friends.

1270
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:35,480
Possibly.

1271
01:10:35,480 --> 01:10:36,480
Yeah, possibly.

1272
01:10:36,480 --> 01:10:38,480
If you want to be a real prick.

1273
01:10:38,480 --> 01:10:39,480
Possibly.

1274
01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:41,640
You don't have to be a prick about it, but you have to understand.

1275
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:47,040
I mean, the whole point about Dune is everybody has their own agenda and you never know.

1276
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:52,320
You never know the timeline of somebody else's agenda.

1277
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:58,200
Because Krone, he was one of the new face dancers, had an agenda and he was so smug

1278
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:01,680
throughout the last three books or whatever, right?

1279
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:03,520
Or the two books or whatever it was.

1280
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:11,200
And he was so smug and he was always thinking to himself like, well, the Omnius has no idea

1281
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:15,700
and so-and-so has no idea because they would go and infiltrate all these other things and

1282
01:11:15,700 --> 01:11:21,820
replace Bene Gesserits and Ixians and Tlaxu with face dancers.

1283
01:11:21,820 --> 01:11:28,760
And so he really felt, and even like the Spacing Guild people with face dancers.

1284
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:33,840
And so they kind of brought about a big loss in the Navigators and a big loss in the Bene

1285
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,280
Gesserit and a big loss in all these other factions.

1286
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:43,900
But in the end, it didn't matter because Erasmus's agenda was a lot more long term than Krone's

1287
01:11:43,900 --> 01:11:46,160
was and Krone thought his was long term.

1288
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:48,400
Yeah, he was running for a couple hundred years.

1289
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:49,400
Yeah.

1290
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:52,520
Which is nothing in the time span of 15,000 years.

1291
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:54,520
Oh no, for sure.

1292
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:56,120
But that's what I mean.

1293
01:11:56,120 --> 01:12:00,600
Even if you have a friend or somebody that you think is a friend at work or wherever

1294
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,560
and they're doing some weird things and you're like, well, that's kind of weird, but you

1295
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:04,560
know what?

1296
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:05,560
They're my friends, no big deal.

1297
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:06,880
But you never know what their timeline is.

1298
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:10,560
Their timeline could be a week or two weeks or a couple months or it could be a couple

1299
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:11,800
years or it could be...

1300
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:16,400
I mean, like in modern society, it's not going to be a hundred years because that'd be some

1301
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:18,280
weird level of bullshit.

1302
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:25,640
Yeah, it's all about your timeframe and what your goals are and spreading out your wheels,

1303
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:29,400
you know, multiple planes of action, different avenues.

1304
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:32,600
And that was kind of the thing was in the last couple of books, right?

1305
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:37,200
Like Omnius, they thought they had the one Quizrach Haderach.

1306
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:40,200
I'm still not saying that right, I don't think.

1307
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:43,400
It was Zac Tadarach and he was only one of many, one of many.

1308
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:44,400
Well, yeah.

1309
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:45,400
And Apollo, right?

1310
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:49,880
They had Paul Atreides, but they named him Apollo and gave him to Baron Harkonnen, Zgola

1311
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:51,560
to subvert.

1312
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,160
And they thought they had the one and then they wanted the other one, which they thought

1313
01:12:55,160 --> 01:13:01,000
was Paul Atreides from the No-ship, which turned out to be Duncan, not even Leto or

1314
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,960
any of the other people that they had grown as Zgolas.

1315
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:08,320
But they were so sure it was Paul, the Paul Gola, whether it was Apollo or Paul, and they

1316
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:09,320
knew it was one of the two.

1317
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:11,600
Or they thought they knew it was one of the two.

1318
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:12,920
Yeah, that was...

1319
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:14,960
And Omnius even said, like, I don't even...

1320
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:19,600
Omnius was like, well, even if the one is dead, we sell the other one, it doesn't matter.

1321
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:27,120
But ultimately it did, because the plans within plans or the timeline of the agenda.

1322
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:32,200
And it ended up being Erasmus, who kind of fucked Omnius over, which is probably a good

1323
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:36,600
thing because Omnius' goals were completely different than Erasmus' goals.

1324
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:37,600
Right.

1325
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:38,840
Very interesting.

1326
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:41,080
People who haven't read it should go out there and do it.

1327
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:43,920
Even though we did throw some spoilers in, it's still worth a read.

1328
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:45,320
Well, there's spoilers in.

1329
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:50,560
I think there's so much, though, that even if you listen to this and you haven't read

1330
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:56,480
them, if anything we've said has seemed interesting, I don't think that by the time you get to

1331
01:13:56,480 --> 01:13:57,480
the eighth book...

1332
01:13:57,480 --> 01:14:02,440
I don't know how much of what we talked about on this episode you'll remember, and there's

1333
01:14:02,440 --> 01:14:07,440
so much more complexity to it than we could ever possibly talk about in an hour and a

1334
01:14:07,440 --> 01:14:09,680
half on an episode.

1335
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:12,280
So it's still definitely worth it.

1336
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:13,280
And I guess I'll ask...

1337
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,960
I have a question for you, Mike.

1338
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:15,960
What's that?

1339
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:19,760
That is, after having read the main eight book trilogy...

1340
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:20,760
Yeah, trilogy.

1341
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:23,440
I'm going all Douglas Adams.

1342
01:14:23,440 --> 01:14:30,600
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy in five parts is how he builds his series.

1343
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:39,120
So having read the full eight book main timeline series, is my next stop the Balharian Jihad,

1344
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,920
or what would you say my next reading from the Dune University?

1345
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:44,960
I would say Balharian Jihad.

1346
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:52,280
Like I say, the house series takes place pre-Dune, but with all the main Dune characters.

1347
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:53,280
And then you have...

1348
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:54,280
Okay.

1349
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:55,360
Let's see here.

1350
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:57,560
I'm looking at the list right here.

1351
01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:59,680
Oh, come on now.

1352
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:07,640
The fall of Dune, the winds of Dune, that takes place between Dune and Dune Messiah,

1353
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:08,640
basically.

1354
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:09,640
Okay.

1355
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:13,600
So that takes place with like during Paul's Jihad.

1356
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:19,200
But I would say that the Balharian Jihad books are gold.

1357
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:20,200
They're winners.

1358
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:21,200
You'll like them.

1359
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:22,200
Okay.

1360
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:23,200
Yeah.

1361
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:25,440
That was kind of like my inkling after reading the full eight books.

1362
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:30,200
And even before I finished, well, when I started to book seven, and I remember, and I said

1363
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:35,000
this earlier in the episode, that I texted you and I said, man, I wish before book seven

1364
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,040
I would have read the Balharian Jihad stuff.

1365
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:39,040
Yeah.

1366
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:43,920
The Balharian Jihad is, you have to read that before you can read like the schools of Dune

1367
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:45,920
series for sure.

1368
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:47,200
Okay.

1369
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:50,360
And then if you're still interested, you know, you could read the other ones too.

1370
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:55,560
Yeah, I feel like essential reading though is probably the eight main series books and

1371
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:59,960
then the Balharian Jihad trilogy and everything else is kind of like icing on the cake probably.

1372
01:15:59,960 --> 01:16:00,960
Yeah.

1373
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:01,960
Yeah.

1374
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:04,560
I mean, I'm not obsessed with the Dune universe, but I really enjoy it.

1375
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:06,760
So I'm just kind of going through as they come out.

1376
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:09,720
Like the Heir of Kaladan came out last year.

1377
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:13,160
So I haven't read that yet, but it's on the list.

1378
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:14,160
So yes.

1379
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:20,920
But I guess the good news is like it's his son and going largely based off of a lot of

1380
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:24,800
notes and things that they found or that he found.

1381
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:31,020
And you know, it's at least within the spirit of Frank and what Frank might have wanted.

1382
01:16:31,020 --> 01:16:37,500
So it's not a complete and you know what I didn't, there wasn't a huge tonal shift.

1383
01:16:37,500 --> 01:16:42,160
It was a little bit of a shift in writing style between the last book Frank wrote and

1384
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:45,640
the first book Brian and Kevin wrote, but it wasn't drastically.

1385
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:50,520
So it's still very much felt like Dune and like Frank was writing.

1386
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:52,960
Yeah, they do a good job.

1387
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:57,800
So I think that's one where, you know, it's, I mean, I know that they're doing it because

1388
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:02,000
they make money off of it, but I feel like they're also doing it because they really

1389
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:07,240
love the series that Frank started and they found a lot of notes and things that he left

1390
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:13,840
behind kind of like Christopher Tolkien did with Lord of the Rings and everything.

1391
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:18,320
So I don't feel like it's a complete money grab, although that is certainly part of it,

1392
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:19,320
I'm sure.

1393
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:24,720
But I think they're trying to do it as close to what Frank would have wanted as possible,

1394
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:28,560
which is great because it seems like they're good stewards of the franchise.

1395
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:30,480
Yeah, I agree.

1396
01:17:30,480 --> 01:17:32,680
And Brian Herbert, he's getting old too.

1397
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:37,080
So yeah, soon Dune will be done entirely.

1398
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:41,840
And it's not like reading Star Trek or Star Wars books, which I've read a few, which they're

1399
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:42,840
different.

1400
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:43,840
They have totally different authors.

1401
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:45,560
So of course they're going to be totally different.

1402
01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:46,560
For sure.

1403
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:47,560
Yeah.

1404
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:54,120
So it's nice to have good stewards of the franchise that are continuing to put out stuff.

1405
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:55,120
Yes.

1406
01:17:55,120 --> 01:18:01,120
I mean, I think that whatever Dune properties come out 20 years from now on the screen,

1407
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:05,220
it's probably not going to be as good as what's going to happen now because Brian will certainly

1408
01:18:05,220 --> 01:18:06,220
be dead by then.

1409
01:18:06,220 --> 01:18:07,220
Yeah, he's 75 now.

1410
01:18:07,220 --> 01:18:08,220
Yeah.

1411
01:18:08,220 --> 01:18:09,220
So.

1412
01:18:09,220 --> 01:18:16,000
And it kind of depends on what they do with the rights and everything after Brian passes

1413
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:18,640
on and Kevin and whatnot.

1414
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:24,200
But I think that there's eight books in the main timeline and there's at least as many,

1415
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:30,040
if not more, books in the, I don't know what we call it, the other supplemental materials

1416
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:31,040
or supplemental stories.

1417
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:32,940
Yeah, the Dune Extended Universe.

1418
01:18:32,940 --> 01:18:35,280
So there's plenty of material there.

1419
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:41,320
So as long as if you're making movies or stuff from it, you've got plenty, like plenty.

1420
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:47,720
I don't think there's anyone, any filmmaker alive that could do all eight Dune books in

1421
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:48,720
their lifetime.

1422
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:49,720
Right.

1423
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:54,080
You know, because I know it was Dene Villeneuve who did the first one.

1424
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:57,160
He's going to do part two of Dune and he's got to be old.

1425
01:18:57,160 --> 01:19:02,400
And even if he's not, if you take two movies to do one book, you're not going to do all

1426
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:04,160
eight because you could do the second one.

1427
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:09,320
You can do Children of Dune, but that's probably about it for a lifetime just with production

1428
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:10,560
times and everything.

1429
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:14,800
So I mean, there's going to be plenty of Dune stuff out there that people can do and we

1430
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:20,200
wouldn't necessarily have to worry about the subversion of the, like the Star Wars franchise,

1431
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:21,200
right?

1432
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:25,600
Because George Lucas opened it up to everybody and let everybody write Star Wars books.

1433
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:29,280
And so there's so many Star Wars books out there, some of which are great and some of

1434
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:31,080
which are not great.

1435
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:35,520
But I think with the Dune stuff, it kind of depends on what they do after Brian passes

1436
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:39,560
on and what the family chooses to do with the franchise and the rights and everything.

1437
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:46,720
But I don't foresee somebody else coming in and making like Dune fan fiction kind of stuff

1438
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:48,960
that actually gets sold and published.

1439
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:51,160
No, I don't think so.

1440
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:58,600
And Kevin Anderson is 61 now, so he could do more, but he's written a lot of books outside

1441
01:19:58,600 --> 01:19:59,600
of Dune.

1442
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,800
I don't know if he'd be interested in continuing that on or not.

1443
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:03,800
Yeah.

1444
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:11,120
And I feel like kind of anything post Sandworms of Dune wouldn't be hugely interesting because

1445
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:15,360
that's kind of the whole point is the universe finds balance in Sandworms of Dune.

1446
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:18,880
Yeah, none of the books take place after Sandworms.

1447
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:24,520
So all of this stuff happens in that window, you know, but Larian Jihad to Sandworms of

1448
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:27,840
Dune and there's not much outside of that window.

1449
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:32,760
You could supposedly write other stories about minor characters, but I don't know.

1450
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:36,200
I don't think the interest is there in the public eye, honestly.

1451
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:38,000
No, not really.

1452
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:42,560
We have the the miniseries, the Dune miniseries, and then we have the Children of Dune miniseries,

1453
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:44,840
which I haven't watched yet.

1454
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:50,200
But that takes Dune Messiah and Children of Dune and combines it into one miniseries because

1455
01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:52,720
you know, Dune Messiah is a very short book.

1456
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:54,440
And so you already have that.

1457
01:20:54,440 --> 01:20:58,280
And those are two miniseries and then you have the Sting movie.

1458
01:20:58,280 --> 01:21:02,800
And then now we have the Dune Vien View part one and part two.

1459
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:04,840
Part two is coming out soon.

1460
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:12,400
But I don't see the average movie goer necessarily wanting to see the full eight books in the

1461
01:21:12,400 --> 01:21:14,480
main timeline committed to film.

1462
01:21:14,480 --> 01:21:19,560
I don't think the interest is there because like we said, Marvel, where, you know, the

1463
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:21,480
first, yeah.

1464
01:21:21,480 --> 01:21:24,560
The first three books are all kind of like you have Paul.

1465
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:27,400
Paul is kind of there and you can tie everything together.

1466
01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:30,000
But after that, it gets weird.

1467
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:32,200
And you either like that weird or you don't.

1468
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:36,080
And that God Emperor of Dune book is is kind of like if you like that one, you're going

1469
01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:37,600
to like all of them.

1470
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:41,320
And if you don't like that one at all, you're not going to like the rest of them because

1471
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:44,200
they only kind of get weirder from there in a sense.

1472
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:46,240
Yeah, you'd be totally lost.

1473
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:48,400
You have to read them in order.

1474
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:52,440
You can't just jump in and know hunters of Dune.

1475
01:21:52,440 --> 01:21:56,360
No, not at all.

1476
01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:57,360
So you could jump in.

1477
01:21:57,360 --> 01:21:59,640
I don't think that God Emperor of Dune, I guess.

1478
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:03,680
Yeah, but you'd be in for like one fucked up ride.

1479
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:04,680
Right.

1480
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:09,080
But so like I don't I'm not overly worried about that.

1481
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:13,960
You know, like a lot of times when people adapt things to the film from a book, it's

1482
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:17,480
kind of like, well, OK, let's see how they do.

1483
01:22:17,480 --> 01:22:18,480
Yeah.

1484
01:22:18,480 --> 01:22:19,480
Oh, yeah.

1485
01:22:19,480 --> 01:22:22,760
Well, I am officially done with my cigar, by the way.

1486
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:23,760
Me as well.

1487
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:24,760
Where we go.

1488
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:27,760
What were your thoughts about the MX2?

1489
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:28,760
This one's really good.

1490
01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:29,760
I like it.

1491
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:30,760
Yeah.

1492
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:31,760
I don't know.

1493
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:35,040
I don't know what the price point is, but it's a great stick.

1494
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:37,140
It's on the higher end of our normal range.

1495
01:22:37,140 --> 01:22:40,440
You can get a stick for nine bucks at a cigar shop.

1496
01:22:40,440 --> 01:22:41,440
OK, typically.

1497
01:22:41,440 --> 01:22:46,200
Well, the last one we smoked, I think, was about there's almost 20 bucks a stick, I think.

1498
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:47,800
Yeah, for the the LFD.

1499
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:49,920
And that was a phenomenal stick.

1500
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:51,240
But this one's really good.

1501
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:52,240
Oh, yeah.

1502
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:55,720
I would still like to in place of the LFD any day.

1503
01:22:55,720 --> 01:23:02,680
Yeah, I liked that this one got kind of darker and more pungent or more strong as we went

1504
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:04,240
along.

1505
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:05,240
Very good.

1506
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:07,520
I also highly recommend the Dune series.

1507
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:12,720
I'm glad there were a couple of books and I gave them a four out of five, but I still

1508
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:16,840
really enjoyed them, but there are a few books where I was kind of like, what in the fuck

1509
01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:18,240
is going on?

1510
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:24,320
But if you if you power through those brief moments, I think it's well worth it.

1511
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:27,000
Yes, it's a very interesting read.

1512
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:31,560
Because a lot of these a lot of these plans within plans, wheels within wheels, take multiple

1513
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:39,080
generations in the characters lives or in the characters time frame to come to fruition.

1514
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:43,160
And the things that happened in God Emperor of Dune didn't fully come to fruition until

1515
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:45,480
the very last book.

1516
01:23:45,480 --> 01:23:46,480
Absolutely.

1517
01:23:46,480 --> 01:23:47,480
Yeah.

1518
01:23:47,480 --> 01:23:52,040
So, you know, if you want to know the full thing, you just got to do the full thing.

1519
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:56,680
Yeah, yeah, it's almost well, God Emperor, you're like lost in a lot of the reasoning

1520
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:59,880
behind things and like, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

1521
01:23:59,880 --> 01:24:00,880
But it does.

1522
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:03,080
In the end, it does come around.

1523
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:04,080
Yes.

1524
01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:06,320
So and that's and that's the great thing.

1525
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:11,760
And I think the thing that will hinder Dune from ever being a full on eight movie series

1526
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:16,440
thing because there's it's so complex throughout it.

1527
01:24:16,440 --> 01:24:18,280
That's not a superhero smash.

1528
01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:19,280
No.

1529
01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:25,120
And even in the even in this podcast episode is very difficult to summarize every every

1530
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:27,280
little nuance in there.

1531
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:28,880
Oh, it's impossible.

1532
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:30,840
You have to read it for yourself twice.

1533
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:34,040
Yeah, times probably four times.

1534
01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:35,040
Probably.

1535
01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:39,520
It would be interesting for me to go and reread it again now that I know how it all ends.

1536
01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:40,520
But right.

1537
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:44,960
Well, the first time I had noticed the name drops of like Norma Simva, I did.

1538
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:45,960
Oh, yeah.

1539
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:46,960
That at all.

1540
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:51,320
The first read through and the second time I was like, oh, that's interesting.

1541
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:52,840
Yeah.

1542
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:56,280
There's definitely some very interesting things that only come into play in the last couple

1543
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:57,280
books.

1544
01:24:57,280 --> 01:24:58,280
So.

1545
01:24:58,280 --> 01:24:59,280
Yeah.

1546
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:05,000
So we recommend Dune and we also recommend the MX to highly recommend the MX to.

1547
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:06,000
Indeed, indeed.

1548
01:25:06,000 --> 01:25:07,000
Thanks for listening.

1549
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:36,000
Be safe, have fun.