WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.200
Yeah, a lot of folks know, it's an interesting,

00:00:03.459 --> 00:00:05.059
I mean, if you look up any, if you look up any

00:00:05.059 --> 00:00:08.320
Google, you know, top 10 mysteries, I mean, Cooper's

00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.919
always on there. He's on there with Jimmy Hoffa

00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:12.880
and Amelia Earhart. I call them the holy trinity

00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:18.800
of missing people. Welcome to Nice Ashes. Join

00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:24.219
hosts Mike and Nate for cigars and culture. Let's

00:00:24.219 --> 00:00:30.660
go beyond the smoke. What are we smoking today,

00:00:30.820 --> 00:00:36.880
Mike? We are smoking the Marco 5 Dici 10. And

00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:40.039
this is the prettiest cigar I think I've ever

00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:41.409
seen. I don't know if you can see that. It is

00:00:41.409 --> 00:00:44.130
very nice looking. This is one of Nate's impulse

00:00:44.130 --> 00:00:46.390
buys because I don't normally supply the cigars

00:00:46.390 --> 00:00:48.789
for our show. And I was getting, I don't remember

00:00:48.789 --> 00:00:51.170
why I was in the, I don't know why I was in a

00:00:51.170 --> 00:00:53.590
cigar shop, Mike. I have no idea. It's almost

00:00:53.590 --> 00:00:56.490
like I'm co -host on a cigar podcast. And this

00:00:56.490 --> 00:00:58.329
one just leapt off the shelf at me because I

00:00:58.329 --> 00:01:00.829
thought, wow, this is really cool. It was $7

00:01:00.829 --> 00:01:03.149
.99. So it's a little bit more expensive than

00:01:03.149 --> 00:01:06.120
the cigars we normally smoke on air. But I'm

00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:08.040
excited to give it a go. It's got a real cool

00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.040
X crisscross pattern. We have a very, very special

00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:13.780
guest on with us today. Ryan Burns, the Cooper

00:01:13.780 --> 00:01:17.140
sleuth. He's the top 1 % contributor to the DB

00:01:17.140 --> 00:01:19.980
Cooper subreddit. He's been on, I don't know

00:01:19.980 --> 00:01:22.859
how many podcasts and stuff. Many. Videos, done

00:01:22.859 --> 00:01:25.680
a lot of videos about DB Cooper. And we're going

00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.780
to talk with him. Say hi, Ryan. Hello. Hi, everybody.

00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:32.480
About DB Cooper and all things DB Cooper related.

00:01:33.069 --> 00:01:35.609
All things Cooper, yes. I'll Cooper all the time

00:01:35.609 --> 00:01:37.849
in my world. That is a beautiful cigar, I'll

00:01:37.849 --> 00:01:39.969
say, for those who can't see it. So first notes

00:01:39.969 --> 00:01:42.189
on the cigar. Oh, before we go on, I'm not sure,

00:01:42.230 --> 00:01:45.409
Ryan, what you're consuming, but I have a little

00:01:45.409 --> 00:01:47.989
bit of honor brand because it's a special day

00:01:47.989 --> 00:01:50.170
today. We're recording on Nathan's birthday.

00:01:50.530 --> 00:01:52.890
Oh. I'm assuming that we're going to have some

00:01:52.890 --> 00:01:56.510
libations. And then once my first glass goes

00:01:56.510 --> 00:01:58.109
down, I'm going to switch over to Crown Royal

00:01:58.109 --> 00:02:02.250
as usual. But there we go. I do have a vodka

00:02:02.250 --> 00:02:04.989
-based drink, so I'll say that. There you go.

00:02:05.230 --> 00:02:09.090
I have the Fulton Hop Kingdom Hazy IPA. I have

00:02:09.090 --> 00:02:11.810
to say, I'm not an IPA fan. You know, some people

00:02:11.810 --> 00:02:13.990
love IPAs and some people hate them. It really

00:02:13.990 --> 00:02:15.710
is like an either -or. I don't think you can

00:02:15.710 --> 00:02:18.349
be halfway on IPAs. Yeah, I tend to like the

00:02:18.349 --> 00:02:21.150
Hazys a little bit better because they're not

00:02:21.150 --> 00:02:24.409
quite as varnish, you know, peel the enamel off

00:02:24.409 --> 00:02:27.150
your teeth. With the hops or the New England

00:02:27.150 --> 00:02:29.789
style. I don't know, the hazy or the cloudy,

00:02:29.969 --> 00:02:32.009
you know, you can't really see through them.

00:02:32.129 --> 00:02:35.050
So a little bit like that. I'm hoping your vodka

00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:37.270
-based drink is kind of like moonshine, but we'll

00:02:37.270 --> 00:02:39.550
leave that to the imagination. Well, it's, yes,

00:02:39.650 --> 00:02:43.729
it's actually, I'm a weird guy. This is actually,

00:02:43.830 --> 00:02:45.810
and this is bizarre. Your audience might think

00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:47.110
this is funny, but like, I don't know if this

00:02:47.110 --> 00:02:49.189
is a Southern thing or just me being a weirdo

00:02:49.189 --> 00:02:51.490
thing. But yeah, I'm drinking a mellow yellow

00:02:51.490 --> 00:02:54.300
and vodka mixed together, so. Oh, sure. Yes.

00:02:54.460 --> 00:02:57.280
I mean, vodka mixes with anything. So why not?

00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:00.219
Yeah. Mellow yellow. So, yeah. Anything mixes

00:03:00.219 --> 00:03:04.539
with anything. I remember when I was in, I spent

00:03:04.539 --> 00:03:07.919
time in London. Nice. Penal time. No, I was there

00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.379
for a film internship and I was sharing a house

00:03:10.379 --> 00:03:12.400
and renting a room. And one of the other rooms

00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:14.819
was being rented by a New Yorker. And we went

00:03:14.819 --> 00:03:17.099
down to one of the pubs and we're like, let's

00:03:17.099 --> 00:03:19.120
just, they didn't have any beer. And they had,

00:03:19.180 --> 00:03:20.800
I think like vodka. And so we're like, let's

00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:22.280
just get Vodka Cokes. And we were just doing

00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.280
Vodka Cokes because we were American and who

00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:27.840
there could stop us. We already beat them once.

00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.199
Yeah, I beat them twice. Vodka Diet Coke is pretty

00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:32.780
good. It's not too bad. Vodka Coke. I've never

00:03:32.780 --> 00:03:35.750
had that. Interesting. Yeah. It's, you know,

00:03:35.789 --> 00:03:37.490
when you're in college, you do what you do. So

00:03:37.490 --> 00:03:40.870
how was y 'all's cigars? So far, what are your

00:03:40.870 --> 00:03:43.229
thoughts, Mike? So far, it's a little light for

00:03:43.229 --> 00:03:45.389
what I was expecting. But overall, the flavor

00:03:45.389 --> 00:03:47.650
profile is good. A little airy, too, for how

00:03:47.650 --> 00:03:50.270
large a diameter it is. It's a big gauge and

00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:53.150
a little longer than we normally smoke. A little

00:03:53.150 --> 00:03:55.930
surprised at that. But that's not a bad thing,

00:03:55.969 --> 00:03:58.229
necessarily. Well, it could get darker as we

00:03:58.229 --> 00:04:00.990
go, Mike. Sometimes they do. The Cooper story

00:04:00.990 --> 00:04:03.949
will get darker as it goes. Trust me. Yes, yes.

00:04:04.210 --> 00:04:08.750
Yeah, so I've been, so my father -in -law was

00:04:08.750 --> 00:04:11.289
the first one, I think, that I heard about the

00:04:11.289 --> 00:04:13.250
Cooper story from. Okay. And I'd never heard

00:04:13.250 --> 00:04:15.129
about it before, and I looked it up, and then

00:04:15.129 --> 00:04:17.490
I like to read a lot of books, so I ended up

00:04:17.490 --> 00:04:19.649
getting a few books. Nice. We can talk about

00:04:19.649 --> 00:04:21.709
books later. I've got more that I'll probably

00:04:21.709 --> 00:04:25.269
order, but we'll get into books later and kind

00:04:25.269 --> 00:04:27.310
of like, I mean, however you want to take it,

00:04:27.350 --> 00:04:30.459
Ryan. Yeah, my book is actually, my book has

00:04:30.459 --> 00:04:34.379
been written. It is, I have several, I have three

00:04:34.379 --> 00:04:37.019
currently literary agents who are looking at

00:04:37.019 --> 00:04:38.980
it, who are interested. So I'm not sure which

00:04:38.980 --> 00:04:40.660
one of those I'm going to go with, but I've got

00:04:40.660 --> 00:04:45.379
offers. And so I have a 140 ,000 word book. that

00:04:45.379 --> 00:04:46.980
I've written on this case. And I think it's like,

00:04:47.060 --> 00:04:49.660
I'll just say, in all humility, I think it is

00:04:49.660 --> 00:04:51.759
the best Cooper book ever written. And there

00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:53.480
are reasons for that, not just because I'm being

00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:56.060
vain, but mainly because we know a lot more about

00:04:56.060 --> 00:04:59.240
the Cooper case now than we did years ago. For

00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:01.939
example, those books you held up, those are outdated

00:05:01.939 --> 00:05:04.600
books. And not through any fault of the, not

00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:06.240
through any fault of the authors. I actually

00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:08.560
know all those people. I mean, I know them, like

00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:10.939
I have their, I text message all those people,

00:05:11.019 --> 00:05:12.180
all those authors. I mean, they're all friends

00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:14.480
of mine, but like the, this case has really,

00:05:15.159 --> 00:05:18.519
The FBI officially closed this case in 2016 because

00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.939
they were tired of, you know, there had been

00:05:21.939 --> 00:05:24.759
really no movement in this case forever. I mean,

00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:26.819
ever. I mean, they've never had a viable real

00:05:26.819 --> 00:05:28.839
suspect or anything like that. You know, nobody

00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.180
was ever charged with this crime. There were

00:05:31.180 --> 00:05:34.500
never any arrests made at all. So they closed

00:05:34.500 --> 00:05:36.319
it in 2016, but they didn't actually close it.

00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:39.420
They had a TV show called DB Cooper Case Closed

00:05:39.420 --> 00:05:40.699
on the History Channel. And they're like, we're

00:05:40.699 --> 00:05:43.000
closing the case. Well, that was a lie. They

00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:45.019
didn't actually close the case. The case is still

00:05:45.019 --> 00:05:48.740
open. I mean, I know the case agent who was on

00:05:48.740 --> 00:05:50.879
it as recently as 2022. He just retired, Larry

00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:54.180
Carr, the FBI agent. Yeah, so it's not closed.

00:05:54.300 --> 00:05:56.779
But what happened was when they at least said

00:05:56.779 --> 00:05:58.759
that they closed it, you see, you know, for your

00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:00.160
listeners, we have a thing called FOIA, right?

00:06:00.259 --> 00:06:02.279
You FOIA documents. That means the Freedom of

00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:04.759
Information Act. So government documents can

00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.160
be requested by anybody. Any citizen can request

00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:09.439
anything. Now, there are exceptions, right? And

00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:11.319
that's the big... That's the big booger bear

00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:13.480
is the exceptions. And one of the exceptions

00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:15.579
has always been active investigation, right?

00:06:15.660 --> 00:06:17.279
So like, if anything is an active investigation,

00:06:17.540 --> 00:06:18.860
we can't give you the files because that's our

00:06:18.860 --> 00:06:21.500
discovery files. Well, when they closed this

00:06:21.500 --> 00:06:23.680
case, quote closed it, or at least they said

00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:25.699
they closed it. Thomas Colbert, who's the brother

00:06:25.699 --> 00:06:27.939
of Stephen Colbert, who actually wrote the book,

00:06:27.939 --> 00:06:30.120
one of those books you've got there is the...

00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:32.430
Robert Rackstraw book, The Last Master Outlaw.

00:06:32.589 --> 00:06:35.730
He and Mark Zaid. Mark Zaid is kind of a famous

00:06:35.730 --> 00:06:38.529
civil rights attorney. Trump actually, I think,

00:06:38.529 --> 00:06:41.709
blackballed him recently, which is funny. But

00:06:41.709 --> 00:06:45.029
on Facebook, Mark is proud of that. But Mark

00:06:45.029 --> 00:06:47.509
is a civil rights attorney. But anyway, Mark

00:06:47.509 --> 00:06:49.329
sued the government for all of the Cooper files.

00:06:49.589 --> 00:06:53.629
Anyway, so he sued them for all the files because

00:06:53.629 --> 00:06:57.769
no longer could they say this is an active investigation

00:06:57.769 --> 00:06:59.529
because they told the whole country that it's

00:06:59.529 --> 00:07:02.860
not. So there's that. So the federal judge agreed

00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:05.600
with them. And a federal judge said, hey, we're

00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:08.339
going to release the federal judge said that

00:07:08.339 --> 00:07:11.079
the FBI has to release all of these files, all

00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:13.860
of them. Now, there's about 85 ,000 documents

00:07:13.860 --> 00:07:15.399
that the government produced on D .B. Cooper,

00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:18.480
85 ,000. OK, and they've released them so far.

00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:21.600
Ever since 2017, they've released about 500 a

00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:25.430
month. On the FBI, it's called the Vault website,

00:07:25.569 --> 00:07:27.430
which is where they have all their files. And

00:07:27.430 --> 00:07:31.290
it's like an Easter egg. At the start of every

00:07:31.290 --> 00:07:34.009
month, the first or the second day, a PDF drops

00:07:34.009 --> 00:07:36.930
of 500 new case documents. So for the first time,

00:07:36.930 --> 00:07:40.830
starting in 2017, we actually got real. data

00:07:40.830 --> 00:07:43.810
on Cooper because it was an active investigation

00:07:43.810 --> 00:07:46.730
and because the witnesses had been told, hey,

00:07:46.829 --> 00:07:49.230
don't talk to the media much because this is

00:07:49.230 --> 00:07:52.269
an active investigation. Basically, we could

00:07:52.269 --> 00:07:54.250
have a trial one day on this, hypothetically.

00:07:54.449 --> 00:07:57.610
So don't go run your mouth to the media too much.

00:07:57.750 --> 00:08:00.250
And so the witnesses weren't talking much. And

00:08:00.250 --> 00:08:01.730
honestly, there weren't many witnesses to begin

00:08:01.730 --> 00:08:03.870
with. And we get into that in a second, in a

00:08:03.870 --> 00:08:06.029
little bit. And because it was an active investigation,

00:08:06.370 --> 00:08:08.730
the only thing that these authors had to go on

00:08:08.730 --> 00:08:12.779
were... media reports from the time of the hijacking,

00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.160
which are, as we know, media reports, especially

00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:16.839
back then, were going to be highly inaccurate.

00:08:17.100 --> 00:08:20.720
In fact, the name D .B. Cooper is an error. D

00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.319
.B. Cooper, when he bought his ticket, his alias

00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:25.839
was Dan Cooper, right? Not D .B. Cooper. What

00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:28.959
happened was during the hijacking, the Portland

00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.600
FBI and the Seattle FBI were communicating with

00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:34.759
each other and somebody, a sheriff's deputy down

00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:37.320
in Portland said, hey, there's a... There's a

00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.399
Dan Cooper. We call him D .B. Cooper. He's a

00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:42.080
Vietnam veteran. And he was a young guy, and

00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:43.399
he had been in trouble with the law a bunch.

00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:45.159
He had come back all kind of messed up from Vietnam.

00:08:45.419 --> 00:08:47.600
His name was Daniel Barry Cooper, and they called

00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:50.419
him D .B. Cooper. So just offhand, the sheriff's

00:08:50.419 --> 00:08:52.679
deputy was like, hey, send somebody over to go

00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:54.659
check on D .B. Cooper, because he was kind of

00:08:54.659 --> 00:08:57.340
known to law enforcement, right? And they went

00:08:57.340 --> 00:08:59.440
there, and he was at his home. But some journalist

00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.700
was overhearing this, had intercepted, was eavesdropping,

00:09:02.700 --> 00:09:04.860
and thought they had a scoop. And so they wrote

00:09:04.860 --> 00:09:08.519
down D .B. Cooper and it went out in the not

00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:12.960
the Associated Press, the UPI, the UPI article,

00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:16.539
I believe, for on the Cooper case on the night

00:09:16.539 --> 00:09:18.759
of the hijacking said D .B. Cooper, not Dan Cooper.

00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:21.840
So and thankfully so, because Dan D .B. Cooper

00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:24.259
is a lot cooler than Dan Cooper. Right. So kind

00:09:24.259 --> 00:09:26.419
of a happy accident there. But yes, the misinformation

00:09:26.419 --> 00:09:28.799
was out there. So early, early authors on the

00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:31.909
Cooper case didn't have. Real evidence. And now

00:09:31.909 --> 00:09:34.409
we do. It's highly redacted. Some, you know.

00:09:34.649 --> 00:09:36.289
Some of the stuff's redacted. But for example,

00:09:36.289 --> 00:09:38.970
we know what kind of parachutes he had now, you

00:09:38.970 --> 00:09:41.009
know, officially. We know, we can see what the

00:09:41.009 --> 00:09:43.190
witnesses were saying, you know, instead of relying

00:09:43.190 --> 00:09:46.029
on, especially the problem is too, some of the

00:09:46.029 --> 00:09:48.330
witnesses have like the pilots and the stewardesses

00:09:48.330 --> 00:09:50.929
who interacted with him. They have come out lately

00:09:50.929 --> 00:09:52.830
now that they're older and done, you know, TV

00:09:52.830 --> 00:09:55.450
show interviews and things. But sadly, a lot

00:09:55.450 --> 00:09:57.450
of the things they say, we can kind of cross

00:09:57.450 --> 00:09:59.289
-check with what they said the night of the hijacking

00:09:59.289 --> 00:10:02.149
to the FBI. And they have misremembered things,

00:10:02.289 --> 00:10:03.889
you know, because again, 50 years is a long time.

00:10:03.950 --> 00:10:06.529
ago. A prime example that I tell people all the

00:10:06.529 --> 00:10:09.549
time is the college kid. So there was a college

00:10:09.549 --> 00:10:11.309
kid who sat across from DB Cooper. His name was

00:10:11.309 --> 00:10:13.370
Bill Mitchell. Real sweet guy. Good friend of

00:10:13.370 --> 00:10:15.549
mine. We text back and forth about football.

00:10:15.690 --> 00:10:17.629
He loves the Seahawks. And he's an older guy

00:10:17.629 --> 00:10:19.509
now. He's retired. But Bill was a college student

00:10:19.509 --> 00:10:23.629
who sat across from Cooper. Bill, I was at CooperCon.

00:10:23.710 --> 00:10:25.090
We have a thing called a CooperCon. It's a Cooper

00:10:25.090 --> 00:10:28.149
convention every year. And Bill comes every year.

00:10:28.250 --> 00:10:30.840
And I was talking about DB Cooper having a mystery

00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.379
bag with him. He had this bag with him. It wasn't

00:10:33.379 --> 00:10:34.840
his bomb. He had a briefcase bomb, and then he

00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.240
had another bag with him. And I said, I was telling

00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:39.240
the audience, I said, you know, Bill saw this

00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:41.639
bag with Cooper. And out in the audience, Bill

00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:43.059
shaved his head going, I didn't say that. Like,

00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:45.559
I didn't see a bag. And so I get off the stage,

00:10:45.580 --> 00:10:48.100
and Bill goes, hey, Ryan, I never saw Cooper

00:10:48.100 --> 00:10:50.980
with a bag. And I said, wow. I hated to be the,

00:10:51.019 --> 00:10:53.500
well, actually guy, but I had to be the, well,

00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:56.159
actually, you told the FBI that night, you know,

00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.639
that Cooper had a mystery bag with him, had a

00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:00.840
bag with him. And the stewardesses saw this bag

00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:02.639
too, so we know it's real. But he had totally

00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.159
forgotten that, you know, about the incident

00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:08.100
because it was 50 years ago. So information is

00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:11.360
really impressive now. So what has it told us?

00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:13.259
For your audience, I will start from the beginning.

00:11:13.659 --> 00:11:15.539
OK, with Cooper, if that's what you want. Yeah,

00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:18.840
sounds good. I think it's a fair bet to say that

00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:21.480
people maybe my age. I don't know how old you

00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:23.399
are. I don't know how old Mike is. I know I'm

00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:25.159
one year older. Can't remember things anymore.

00:11:25.460 --> 00:11:27.559
But yeah, I don't know. I don't know how many

00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:29.860
people I don't know exactly our age demographic

00:11:29.860 --> 00:11:31.700
out there. I don't know how many people are familiar

00:11:31.700 --> 00:11:33.919
with this story. I know quite a few people that

00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:36.179
I've talked to that I know our listeners are

00:11:36.179 --> 00:11:38.039
familiar with the D .B. Cooper story. But I think

00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:40.779
a brief overview. Yeah. Or however in -depth

00:11:40.779 --> 00:11:43.039
you want to go. Yeah, a lot of folks know. It's

00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.200
an interesting, I mean, if you look up any Google,

00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:49.220
you know, top 10 mysteries, I mean, Cooper's

00:11:49.220 --> 00:11:51.820
always on there. He's on there with Jimmy Hoffa

00:11:51.820 --> 00:11:53.779
and Amelia Earhart. I call them the holy trinity

00:11:53.779 --> 00:11:56.259
of missing people, right? Amelia Earhart, Jimmy

00:11:56.259 --> 00:11:59.220
Hoffa, and D .B. Cooper. But what's fascinating

00:11:59.220 --> 00:12:01.120
about Cooper, the reason why it's more fascinating

00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.440
than Amelia Earhart and Jimmy Hoffa is we don't

00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:05.440
even know who the guy was. He's a missing person

00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.370
who's unknown. So that makes it even more dramatic.

00:12:08.590 --> 00:12:11.009
I mean, we know who Amelia Earhart was, and we

00:12:11.009 --> 00:12:13.730
know who Jimmy Hoffa was, but Cooper existed

00:12:13.730 --> 00:12:16.450
for five hours. This is a man who literally came

00:12:16.450 --> 00:12:18.850
into the world and went, went, and that's it.

00:12:18.950 --> 00:12:20.789
There's a famous quote from an FBI agent who

00:12:20.789 --> 00:12:22.850
said, scratching his head, said, we don't know

00:12:22.850 --> 00:12:24.529
who he was, where he came from, or where he went.

00:12:24.649 --> 00:12:28.169
So it's November 24th, 1971. It's the day before

00:12:28.169 --> 00:12:32.039
Thanksgiving, and a... Middle -aged man walks

00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:35.340
into Portland International Airport, and he goes

00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:37.259
up to the Northwest Orient, which is Northwest

00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:39.039
Airlines now. He goes up to Northwest Orient,

00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:41.419
ticket at ticket, and says, hey, I want a flight

00:12:41.419 --> 00:12:43.080
to Seattle. Can I get on your next flight to

00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.480
Seattle? They said, yep. And he dropped down

00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.340
a $20 bill, which is what his flight cost, including

00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:50.740
tax. They were nice enough to make it to where

00:12:50.740 --> 00:12:53.879
with tax, it was $20 on the nose. And he gives

00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:56.039
his name as Dan Cooper. Now, back then, something

00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:57.860
that I think especially younger people would

00:12:57.860 --> 00:13:00.980
be shocked at is that There was no airline security.

00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.159
It did not exist, essentially. I mean, there

00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:06.200
was a little bit, but you did not need to show

00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.840
ID to buy a plane ticket. In fact, some airlines,

00:13:08.940 --> 00:13:11.000
you could buy the plane ticket on the plane.

00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:14.299
Okay, so no ID. There was no metal detectors.

00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:17.299
The only security they had at the time was some

00:13:17.299 --> 00:13:20.299
gate agents had been trained at profiling. So

00:13:20.299 --> 00:13:22.320
it's just like, you know, if somebody looks suspicious,

00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.039
you can pull them out and interrogate them, whatever.

00:13:24.179 --> 00:13:26.600
But Cooper was dressed as a businessman. He was

00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:29.940
wearing a tie, a suit, a trench coat, and carrying

00:13:29.940 --> 00:13:32.139
a briefcase and just looked like everybody else.

00:13:32.299 --> 00:13:35.019
Very bland. Cooper's superpower, really, as I

00:13:35.019 --> 00:13:37.539
say, was his blandness. This guy looked like

00:13:37.539 --> 00:13:40.730
everybody. He was... If a bank robber wears a

00:13:40.730 --> 00:13:43.929
mask as their disguise, Cooper's disguise was

00:13:43.929 --> 00:13:46.970
being able to blend in. He drew no attention.

00:13:47.289 --> 00:13:50.710
So yeah, yeah. So Cooper, that was his disguise.

00:13:50.830 --> 00:13:53.409
So Cooper buys a ticket. He boards the plane.

00:13:53.590 --> 00:13:56.210
Now this is a 727, all right? This is important

00:13:56.210 --> 00:13:58.909
to remember is that 727s was the aircraft he

00:13:58.909 --> 00:14:02.789
chose. They have stairs that lowered, okay? Most

00:14:02.789 --> 00:14:07.000
airplanes, in fact, only... Two aircraft, commercial

00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.639
airliners, had these rear stairs. That would

00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:13.259
be a DC -9 and a Boeing 727. And the utility

00:14:13.259 --> 00:14:15.980
of it was that they could land at smaller airports.

00:14:16.259 --> 00:14:18.200
They could land at airports that didn't have

00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:21.360
a jetway to pull up to. And that was kind of

00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:23.279
their thing. And so these stairs could lower

00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:26.019
from the rear, from inside. In fact, that day,

00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.240
there was construction going on at the airport

00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.809
there in PDX. The plane, they boarded from those

00:14:31.809 --> 00:14:33.590
stairs because there was construction and they

00:14:33.590 --> 00:14:35.370
couldn't use the jetway. So the passengers boarded

00:14:35.370 --> 00:14:37.330
from the rear. So Cooper walked up the same stairs

00:14:37.330 --> 00:14:38.929
that he would eventually jump off of to board

00:14:38.929 --> 00:14:41.029
the plane. But this was only a 30 minute flight.

00:14:41.169 --> 00:14:44.409
And remarkably, the 727 could hold over 100 people.

00:14:44.509 --> 00:14:46.750
But there were only 36 passengers on the plane,

00:14:46.870 --> 00:14:48.429
including Cooper. So you would think there'd

00:14:48.429 --> 00:14:50.429
be more the day before Thanksgiving. I've often

00:14:50.429 --> 00:14:52.370
wondered about that. Like maybe it wasn't as

00:14:52.370 --> 00:14:54.490
busy as it was back then because people were

00:14:54.490 --> 00:14:57.049
more localized in those days. You know, we're

00:14:57.049 --> 00:14:59.679
so spread out. I think people lived closer to

00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:01.440
where they were from back then. So maybe visiting

00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.600
family, you would drive instead of flying. So

00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.480
maybe it wasn't as busy. But there were only

00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:07.700
36 passengers on this plane. But it was a milk

00:15:07.700 --> 00:15:11.440
run, 30 minutes to Seattle. So Cooper, interestingly

00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:13.840
enough, because it was such a short flight, they

00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.539
served them their drinks before they took off.

00:15:16.700 --> 00:15:19.139
So they did drink service before they even left.

00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:22.259
So Cooper, he's the first person served by the

00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:24.820
stewardess, Florence Schaffner. And he orders

00:15:24.820 --> 00:15:27.389
a bourbon and seven up. And he gives her, it

00:15:27.389 --> 00:15:29.049
was only a dollar. The drink costs a dollar.

00:15:29.149 --> 00:15:31.509
And he gives her a $20 bill. So I often joke

00:15:31.509 --> 00:15:33.590
that he's already inconveniencing poor Florence

00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:35.870
Schaffner before he even hijacks her. Because

00:15:35.870 --> 00:15:37.529
she's like, look, I just, she tells him, she

00:15:37.529 --> 00:15:38.750
goes, look, I don't have any change with me right

00:15:38.750 --> 00:15:42.210
now. You know, I mean, basically the calculations,

00:15:42.210 --> 00:15:44.149
if you want to in your head, everything was five

00:15:44.149 --> 00:15:46.919
times. I guess, less expensive than it is now.

00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:49.220
So for example, a $20 bill is the equivalent

00:15:49.220 --> 00:15:51.340
of a $100 bill now. So you're buying a drink

00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:53.259
that costs $5 and you're giving the woman a $100

00:15:53.259 --> 00:15:54.879
bill is what he was doing. It's like, oh, come

00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:58.179
on, really? But that's what he had. So she gives

00:15:58.179 --> 00:16:00.159
him his bourbon and seven up. He spills it, okay?

00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.279
He actually spills his one drink. I don't know

00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:03.659
if he's nervous or whatever, but he spills it.

00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:07.139
It's not replaced. Right before they take off,

00:16:07.259 --> 00:16:10.200
he sits in the very back row on the right side

00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:11.879
of the plane as you're looking forward. So if

00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:14.340
you're into the Navy, that would be the starboard

00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:16.659
side of the plane. On the middle seat on the

00:16:16.659 --> 00:16:19.720
back row. And behind him is the stewardess in

00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:21.240
her jump seat. You know, they get in their jump

00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:23.320
seat to take off. Well, as she's walking to her

00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:25.759
jump seat, he hands her a note. And she, remember,

00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.220
this is the time of the sexy stews, right? This

00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:30.879
is the swinging 60s and 70s, right? The stewardesses

00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:32.759
are wearing go -go boots and everything. And

00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.759
they're used to getting hit on by businessmen.

00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:36.960
So she thinks this is like his phone number or

00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.740
something. And so she puts this note in her bag

00:16:39.740 --> 00:16:43.259
and goes and sits down. And she says that he's

00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:45.679
kind of looking at her and he turns around, you

00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:47.440
know, he turns to look back, you know, where

00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.399
she's sitting and stares at her. And she says

00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.320
she returned his gaze. And they had a brief staring

00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:53.840
contest. And finally, she's like, well, what

00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:55.460
do you want? And he's like, Miss, I think you

00:16:55.460 --> 00:16:58.220
need to read that note. And the note said, Miss,

00:16:58.340 --> 00:17:00.559
I have a bomb in my briefcase and I want you

00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:03.559
to sit by me. So, oh, my God. Now I will take

00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:06.289
a brief. break here to point out that hijackings,

00:17:06.289 --> 00:17:09.089
your audience will be amazed to know this, that

00:17:09.089 --> 00:17:14.289
I believe it's between 1963 and 72, there were

00:17:14.289 --> 00:17:18.490
about 150 hijackings of American airliners, okay,

00:17:18.630 --> 00:17:22.710
in a 10 -year period. 150 hijackings. Now, so

00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:24.849
it was almost like a, it was almost expected

00:17:24.849 --> 00:17:27.549
in a weird way. It became like a fad. And most

00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:30.609
of it, what it was, is it was Cubans who were

00:17:31.069 --> 00:17:33.750
Because if you recall your history, when Castro

00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:37.309
took over from Batista in Cuba, a lot of the

00:17:37.309 --> 00:17:40.069
Cubans fled to America, okay? And a lot of the

00:17:40.069 --> 00:17:42.829
Cubans who were born in Cuba, who were now teenagers

00:17:42.829 --> 00:17:46.670
or in their 20s in 71, they were enamored by

00:17:46.670 --> 00:17:49.690
Castro's socialist paradise, right? So, and remember,

00:17:49.769 --> 00:17:51.650
there's a travel ban. You can't fly to Cuba.

00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:54.269
So, well, one way you can fly to Cuba is to hijack

00:17:54.269 --> 00:17:56.589
a plane and say, fly me to Cuba. So it was a

00:17:56.589 --> 00:17:58.769
real thing. I mean, I would probably say 90 %

00:17:58.769 --> 00:18:00.990
of all the hijackers were Cubans who were going

00:18:00.990 --> 00:18:04.130
home. And it was almost like it was fun. Passengers

00:18:04.130 --> 00:18:06.109
were like, hey, we can go get some rum and cigars.

00:18:06.309 --> 00:18:08.109
Castro was like, hello. You know, he wanted to

00:18:08.109 --> 00:18:09.730
put on a good image. So whenever a hijacked plane

00:18:09.730 --> 00:18:12.230
would land there, and they did negotiate with

00:18:12.230 --> 00:18:13.789
terrorists, I guess, back then. That was their

00:18:13.789 --> 00:18:16.730
thing was, hey, look, if, you know, what is the

00:18:16.730 --> 00:18:20.170
risk assessment here is, okay, we're going to

00:18:20.170 --> 00:18:24.200
fly some. teenage Cuban to Cuba. And instead

00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:26.299
of him killing people, maybe, if he does, or

00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:27.779
blowing a plane up or whatever, they're just

00:18:27.779 --> 00:18:30.140
not going to risk that, right? So you cooperated

00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:32.960
with hijackers back then. So it wasn't a shock

00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:34.859
that they were hijacked, honestly. I mean, they

00:18:34.859 --> 00:18:37.140
were surprised, but what really surprised them

00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:39.700
was that when she sits down next to him and says,

00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:41.569
what do you want? You know, what are your demands,

00:18:41.710 --> 00:18:45.809
sir? He says, I want $200 ,000 and four parachutes

00:18:45.809 --> 00:18:50.450
before we land in Seattle. What? Okay, now extortion

00:18:50.450 --> 00:18:52.950
hijackings. There had been one previously, just

00:18:52.950 --> 00:18:55.440
one. A couple of years earlier, a mailman who

00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.819
had, he went postal apparently, a mailman in

00:18:57.819 --> 00:19:00.900
Arizona was upset that he had been charged about

00:19:00.900 --> 00:19:04.579
$300 extra on his taxes by the IRS. And so he

00:19:04.579 --> 00:19:05.960
hijacked a plane and asked for $100 million.

00:19:06.259 --> 00:19:08.819
Yeah. So the first extortion hijacking was a

00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:12.140
guy asking for $100 million. And back then that's

00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:15.279
a billion dollars or whatever. So they eventually

00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.819
shot off, they shot off the tires of this airliner.

00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:21.660
They captured this guy. But anyway, so Cooper

00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:23.519
says, I want $20 ,000 and $400 ,000. parachutes.

00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:26.779
Well, the pilots go, okay, well, they call their

00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:29.339
bosses at Northwest Airlines in Minneapolis and

00:19:29.339 --> 00:19:31.259
they say, you know, what do you want to do? And

00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:34.380
back then, the FBI actually gave you an option.

00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:36.200
They don't do it anymore, but they gave you the

00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:38.519
option in those days if you were being extorted

00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.950
in a kidnapping situation. or something like

00:19:41.950 --> 00:19:45.210
this, they gave you the option to play ball with

00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:48.109
the bad guys or to let the FBI intervene. You

00:19:48.109 --> 00:19:49.269
know, go ahead and pay the ransom. You know,

00:19:49.289 --> 00:19:50.970
we'll catch the guy later. So if you want to

00:19:50.970 --> 00:19:53.369
pay the ransom, you can. So Northwest Airlines

00:19:53.369 --> 00:19:55.029
didn't want the guy with a bomb to blow their

00:19:55.029 --> 00:19:57.049
plane up, even if it was a fake bomb. You know,

00:19:57.109 --> 00:19:59.250
don't take that risk. So they said, sure, whatever.

00:19:59.450 --> 00:20:01.710
And they told the FBI to stand down. So the FBI

00:20:01.710 --> 00:20:04.109
really... and this surprises people, had nothing

00:20:04.109 --> 00:20:07.109
to do at all with the Cooper hijacking as it's

00:20:07.109 --> 00:20:09.230
going on. Like everything that they did was afterwards.

00:20:09.430 --> 00:20:11.609
So this was essentially a transaction between

00:20:11.609 --> 00:20:13.829
an angry customer and the airliners. That was

00:20:13.829 --> 00:20:16.130
literally how they handled it. The FBI didn't

00:20:16.130 --> 00:20:17.609
get the money. They didn't get the parachutes.

00:20:17.609 --> 00:20:19.670
This was all Northwest Airlines employees running

00:20:19.670 --> 00:20:22.349
these errands. Okay, so it takes a while to get

00:20:22.349 --> 00:20:25.569
$200 ,000 back then and four parachutes. The

00:20:25.569 --> 00:20:27.049
parachutes were the problem, really. It wasn't

00:20:27.049 --> 00:20:29.930
the money because Northwest Airlines used...

00:20:30.349 --> 00:20:33.630
C -First Bank in Seattle. And interestingly enough,

00:20:33.789 --> 00:20:36.230
C -First Bank had a ransom pack ready to go.

00:20:36.369 --> 00:20:40.690
They had $250 ,000 of pre -recorded bills. Okay,

00:20:40.710 --> 00:20:41.890
so the serial numbers were already recorded.

00:20:42.049 --> 00:20:44.609
And what it was is their idea was, hey, if we're

00:20:44.609 --> 00:20:47.589
ever robbed, give them this money as well as

00:20:47.589 --> 00:20:48.950
whatever they asked for, right? Because that

00:20:48.950 --> 00:20:50.190
way we can track them with the serial numbers.

00:20:50.269 --> 00:20:52.430
So they had a pre -recorded ransom pack of $250

00:20:52.430 --> 00:20:56.569
,000. So they gave $200 ,000 in a bag and they

00:20:56.569 --> 00:20:58.329
drove it to the airport and they got the parachutes

00:20:58.329 --> 00:21:00.319
from a couple of different places. It took a

00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:01.619
while. So they had to circle. Remember, this

00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:03.579
is only a 30 -minute flight. So they had to circle

00:21:03.579 --> 00:21:07.400
for about two hours or so over Seattle. Now,

00:21:07.420 --> 00:21:10.059
the brilliant part about Cooper. is that none

00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:11.880
of the passengers were ever aware they were being

00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:14.660
hijacked. Like, this is remarkable. Not a single

00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:16.160
passenger knew they were being hijacked until

00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.859
they landed in Seattle, and they asked some guy,

00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:20.579
like, what the hell's going on? Oh, y 'all were

00:21:20.579 --> 00:21:22.700
hijacked. Oh, we didn't know. Because the pilots

00:21:22.700 --> 00:21:24.539
were like, oh, we have a mechanical difficulty.

00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:26.079
We're going to circle and burn off some fuel,

00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:28.339
you know, whatever. Because Cooper, remember,

00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:30.319
he's in the back row. Very smart on his part.

00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:32.599
You sit in the very back. You're inconspicuous.

00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:35.599
The only thing that drew some attention was that

00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:37.829
the stewardess sat with him the whole time. One

00:21:37.829 --> 00:21:39.789
of the stewardesses sat with this guy. And so

00:21:39.789 --> 00:21:41.710
a couple of passengers after the hijacking was

00:21:41.710 --> 00:21:43.329
over with, they were like, yeah, I thought maybe

00:21:43.329 --> 00:21:46.390
they knew each other. Or maybe another guy thought

00:21:46.390 --> 00:21:48.309
that he was an airline executive who was like

00:21:48.309 --> 00:21:50.049
doing a secret shopper sort of thing, you know,

00:21:50.069 --> 00:21:51.890
just assessing the airline, you know, things

00:21:51.890 --> 00:21:54.289
like this. I mentioned earlier the college kid

00:21:54.289 --> 00:21:56.950
who sat across from Cooper. He's our best passenger

00:21:56.950 --> 00:21:59.809
witness is this college kid. Now, the only reason

00:21:59.809 --> 00:22:01.849
he paid attention to D .B. Cooper at all was

00:22:01.849 --> 00:22:05.279
because. He was a strapping 21 -year -old college

00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.539
student, and this hot babe stewardess was paying

00:22:07.539 --> 00:22:11.099
all of his attention to, quote, this geeky old

00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:13.359
guy. That's what he said. So he was jealous.

00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:16.420
He didn't understand. And so he wanted to pick

00:22:16.420 --> 00:22:19.539
on the guy. He had two hours to do nothing. He

00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:21.319
just looked over at this guy whispering to the

00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:23.380
stewardess and picked on him. Picked on him as

00:22:23.380 --> 00:22:25.279
far as, like, for example, Cooper had a turkey

00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:28.440
neck. Interesting detail that D .B. Cooper had

00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.859
a turkey gobble when he talked. He had a gobble.

00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.140
He had loose skin is what he called it. He told

00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.480
the FBI after the hijacking, he said it looked

00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:38.559
like he had been fat and lost a lot of weight

00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.880
in his face. He had like sagging neck. That,

00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.140
you know, and which is interesting because, but

00:22:43.140 --> 00:22:45.259
that's a detail that a guy who's sitting across

00:22:45.259 --> 00:22:47.039
from you would see. He would see your side profile,

00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:48.920
see your neck, you know. But he was picking on

00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.859
him and he said his socks were oddly colored.

00:22:52.259 --> 00:22:55.440
His socks or something didn't match his shoes.

00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.359
And he was just really like that. So just, he

00:22:58.359 --> 00:22:59.680
was wondering why this girl was talking to this

00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:01.319
guy, but the passengers didn't know. So they

00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:04.880
land and they bring the money on board. And when

00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:06.559
they bring, when the stewardess, he tells the

00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:08.500
girl, go get the money. And she goes and brings

00:23:08.500 --> 00:23:10.559
it on board and he lets the passengers go. Then

00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:12.960
they bring the parachutes on and they refuel.

00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:14.740
And they go, okay, where do you want us to go?

00:23:14.900 --> 00:23:17.319
Because they said, okay, now you have your ransom.

00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:19.480
Where do you want us to fly you to? He goes,

00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:22.339
fly me to Mexico City. And they go, okay. But

00:23:22.339 --> 00:23:24.420
he says, but wait, don't just fly to Mexico City.

00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:26.579
When you fly to Mexico City, I want you to fly

00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:30.059
with the flaps at 15 degrees, with the gear down,

00:23:30.220 --> 00:23:33.539
and with the rear stairs lowered. And they're

00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:35.759
like, what in the hell? And we actually have

00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.220
the audio transcripts of the pilots talking.

00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:40.940
And one of them is like, I don't know where this

00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:43.200
guy is coming up with this stuff, but he seems

00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.599
to know a little bit about an airplane. So he

00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.519
was a, I think Cooper was a pilot of some sort,

00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:52.279
not a commercial airline pilot, but he knew some

00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:55.039
things about airliners or knew some things about

00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:57.940
aviation that made them. Actually, Northwest

00:23:57.940 --> 00:23:59.839
Airlines, after the hijacking was over, contacted

00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:01.819
the FBI saying, hey, look, we've been talking

00:24:01.819 --> 00:24:04.140
to the pilots, and there are some words and phrases

00:24:04.140 --> 00:24:06.779
that are used that only pilots would use. For

00:24:06.779 --> 00:24:10.480
example, before they took off from Seattle, they

00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.900
were talking about having to file a flight plan.

00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:16.460
Now, you can file a flight plan in the air, and

00:24:16.460 --> 00:24:19.759
pilot lingo, they have this terminology called

00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:22.099
pick it up in the air. And when the stewardess,

00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:24.660
he's going, why the hell haven't we left yet?

00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:26.519
Stewardess says, hey, she's on the phone with

00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:28.059
the pilots the whole time. Remember, they're

00:24:28.059 --> 00:24:29.779
in the back of the plane and the stewardess is

00:24:29.779 --> 00:24:31.759
on the phone, on the interphone at the back of

00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:33.380
the plane the whole time with the pilots up front.

00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:35.359
And she's relaying this and she goes, the pilots

00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:36.900
are saying that they have to file a flight plan

00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:39.539
first. He goes, no, no, no. They can do that

00:24:39.539 --> 00:24:43.119
in the air. He says, they can pick it up in the

00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:45.880
air, which is that pilot term. And the pilots.

00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:48.099
That went in their brain like, hey, he sounds

00:24:48.099 --> 00:24:49.839
like one of us, you know? So that's one of those

00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:52.319
weird clues about Cooper. But anyway, so they

00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:54.640
take off. Well, the problem is you can't fly

00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:56.940
to Mexico City on a single tank of gas flying

00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:59.920
in that configuration. The Boeing 727 could fly

00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:02.279
from Seattle to Mexico City on a single tank

00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:06.759
of gas flying without all that drag, right? Flying

00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:08.880
with the gear down, flaps down, that's just going

00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:12.079
to kill your fuel efficiency. So they said, we

00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:14.079
have to stop in Reno to refuel. He goes, that's

00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:16.279
fine. Because again, Cooper didn't care. He was

00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:18.240
never going to be on the plane anyway. So they

00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.980
take off heading south toward Reno for their

00:25:20.980 --> 00:25:24.079
refueling stop. And he still has the girl back.

00:25:24.140 --> 00:25:25.940
He keeps the girl. He lets the stewardesses go

00:25:25.940 --> 00:25:27.539
except for one. He keeps one stewardess back

00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:29.299
there with him. Then there's three crew members

00:25:29.299 --> 00:25:31.400
in the cockpit, okay? So there's four hostages

00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:33.740
at this point. And about five minutes after takeoff,

00:25:33.859 --> 00:25:36.059
he asks the stewardess, he says, look, I need

00:25:36.059 --> 00:25:37.880
you to demonstrate how to... Or he was going

00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:39.440
to have her lower the stairs, but she was freaked

00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:40.640
out. She goes, I'm going to be sucked out of

00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:43.700
the plane. Now, the plane was flying depressurized.

00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:46.579
So you can open a door and you're not going to

00:25:46.579 --> 00:25:48.279
be sucked out. But still, I'd be scared too.

00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:49.900
So she goes, I'm going to be sucked out. And

00:25:49.900 --> 00:25:52.359
she's panicking. He goes, fine, just show me

00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:54.559
how to lower the stairs. And she does. And he

00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:57.059
bids her adieu. He says goodbye. He even waves

00:25:57.059 --> 00:25:59.339
goodbye at her and says, OK, see you. And she

00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:01.940
goes to the front. And about five minutes later,

00:26:02.019 --> 00:26:04.380
the cockpit gets a indicator light that says

00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:07.460
that the aft stairs are open. Okay, so Cooper

00:26:07.460 --> 00:26:10.500
had opened the stairs. And roughly about 8 .13

00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:13.319
p .m., as they're about 10 miles north of Portland,

00:26:13.539 --> 00:26:16.559
the pilots feel what they call a pressure bump.

00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:18.660
And what they mean is that their ears popped.

00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.480
One of the pilots said it was like a cork going

00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:24.099
off out of a bottle. Another said it was like

00:26:24.099 --> 00:26:26.140
lowering or raising the window when you're speeding

00:26:26.140 --> 00:26:28.720
down the interstate. That kind of woof you feel,

00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:32.140
right? They felt that. And what that was is those

00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:36.710
stairs. So if you can imagine the wind. was pushing,

00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:39.309
the wind was keeping, those stairs were lowered

00:26:39.309 --> 00:26:42.309
by gravity only, okay? So the stairs really weren't

00:26:42.309 --> 00:26:44.509
lowering a lot because the wind was pushing up

00:26:44.509 --> 00:26:46.809
against the stairs. But his body weight, as he

00:26:46.809 --> 00:26:49.269
went down the stairs, kind of pushed, made some

00:26:49.269 --> 00:26:51.730
resistance against the wind. So when he leaves,

00:26:51.809 --> 00:26:53.829
when he jumps off, all that wind resistance,

00:26:54.049 --> 00:26:56.789
I liken it to how, the best way to describe it

00:26:56.789 --> 00:26:58.789
to people is, it's kind of like a diving board,

00:26:58.890 --> 00:27:00.970
but think about if you're driving down the road.

00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:02.619
when you're a kid or whatever, and you stick

00:27:02.619 --> 00:27:05.039
your hand out the window and you have to like

00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.559
put some resistance in your arm to keep it from

00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:09.799
flying backwards, right? And just imagine you

00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:12.019
suddenly like, you know, loosen your arm muscles.

00:27:12.220 --> 00:27:14.480
Your arm flies backwards really quickly. That's

00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:16.400
what happened. So whenever Cooper's weight was

00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:19.440
released, the stairs rebounded like a diving

00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:20.859
board and they slammed it and they slammed up

00:27:20.859 --> 00:27:23.160
against the top of the plane and that forced

00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:25.000
all this wind down and it popped their ears.

00:27:25.059 --> 00:27:27.000
So that's how we know where Cooper jumped essentially.

00:27:27.420 --> 00:27:29.839
But the pilots weren't too sure. So they flew

00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.920
all the way to Reno. And they landed and he wasn't

00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:33.319
there. But they looked back and they said, hey,

00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:35.359
we think he jumped out around this point. So

00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:37.200
about 10 miles north of Portland, about 8 .13

00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.819
p .m. And that's it. I mean, literally, when

00:27:40.819 --> 00:27:43.960
he had jumped out with one of the parachutes

00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:45.859
and the money was gone and all he left on the

00:27:45.859 --> 00:27:48.480
plane was eight cigarette butts that he had smoked

00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.829
and his clip -on tie. famously. I think that

00:27:51.829 --> 00:27:54.150
was a brain fart on his part. He was very studious

00:27:54.150 --> 00:27:56.190
about taking things with him. In fact, so Cooper

00:27:56.190 --> 00:27:58.490
kept his right hand at most of the time inside

00:27:58.490 --> 00:28:01.190
this briefcase bomb. And it was a pretty convincing

00:28:01.190 --> 00:28:03.609
looking bomb. I mean, we can say, we're still

00:28:03.609 --> 00:28:06.009
debating it to this day, whether it was real

00:28:06.009 --> 00:28:07.990
or fake. Normally, we would say, of course, it's

00:28:07.990 --> 00:28:10.970
a fake bomb. But basically, the stewardess who

00:28:10.970 --> 00:28:13.009
got the best look at it and saw it several times,

00:28:13.190 --> 00:28:15.849
she was the daughter of an electrician. So her

00:28:15.849 --> 00:28:18.819
mind, she grew up around gadgets. And she was

00:28:18.819 --> 00:28:20.559
able to describe it really well, which wires

00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:24.160
went where, which things went where. And some

00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.039
Marines, I believe, have actually replicated

00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:28.140
that bomb and it would have gone off. If it was

00:28:28.140 --> 00:28:30.660
dynamite bombs with a, I think it was like a

00:28:30.660 --> 00:28:34.059
nine volt or a dry cell battery, kind of a big

00:28:34.059 --> 00:28:36.259
battery, it would have blown up if it had been

00:28:36.259 --> 00:28:37.920
real dynamite. We don't know if it was real dynamite,

00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:42.750
but it seemed overkill because back then... Lots

00:28:42.750 --> 00:28:45.690
of hijackers would say, I have a bomb. And no

00:28:45.690 --> 00:28:47.009
one's going to call their bluff on it and say,

00:28:47.009 --> 00:28:48.710
let me see it. You know, they could just say,

00:28:48.730 --> 00:28:50.349
I have a bomb. And usually it was because these

00:28:50.349 --> 00:28:52.809
guys were all captured. Usually it was like rags

00:28:52.809 --> 00:28:55.349
in a shoebox. It was nothing. But his bomb looked

00:28:55.349 --> 00:28:56.970
convincing. And actually, the way he designed

00:28:56.970 --> 00:28:59.839
it was good enough. to actually explode if it

00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:01.700
was real. So we don't know if it was real or

00:29:01.700 --> 00:29:03.380
not. It would have been a bad day if it had been

00:29:03.380 --> 00:29:06.079
real and he didn't get his way. But Cooper, not

00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.799
a nice guy. I think a lot of people in the, a

00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:11.180
lot of people, your listeners maybe too, we have

00:29:11.180 --> 00:29:14.779
this image of Cooper as like Han Solo in a business

00:29:14.779 --> 00:29:17.299
suit. He's kind of this roguish air pirate, you

00:29:17.299 --> 00:29:19.319
know, but not a good guy, honestly. I mean, he

00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:21.539
was friendly to the crew enough, but he still

00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:23.720
looked at a 21 -year -old girl and said, I will

00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:25.779
kill you if you don't do this. And that's not

00:29:25.779 --> 00:29:29.269
nice. and did lose his temper a few times and

00:29:29.269 --> 00:29:31.589
repeatedly told the stewardess, I'm not going

00:29:31.589 --> 00:29:33.829
to be taken alive. I will die here today. So

00:29:33.829 --> 00:29:35.910
that's kind of scary a little bit. So he scared

00:29:35.910 --> 00:29:38.230
her, you know, and inconvenienced a lot of people,

00:29:38.269 --> 00:29:39.410
too. I mean, there were thousands of people.

00:29:39.490 --> 00:29:41.609
They shut down airspace. This was a plane that

00:29:41.609 --> 00:29:43.750
had a bomb in it. You know, they shut down all

00:29:43.750 --> 00:29:46.589
the airspace around Seattle for hours the day

00:29:46.589 --> 00:29:49.390
before Thanksgiving. Real inconvenient. So, yeah,

00:29:49.509 --> 00:29:52.029
I've been babbling. What about your cigars, guys?

00:29:52.230 --> 00:29:53.690
It's a cigar show. Tell me about the cigars.

00:29:54.959 --> 00:29:57.160
It's funny because I just messaged Mike and was

00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:58.380
like, hey, do you want to do a cigar check soon?

00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:00.920
And that was a great recap of everything. It

00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:02.900
totally matches everything I know from the Wikipedia

00:30:02.900 --> 00:30:05.960
page about D .B. Cooper. Which I wrote. Okay.

00:30:06.059 --> 00:30:09.059
Well, there you go. The current Wikipedia page

00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:11.519
is something that I, yeah, exactly. But yeah,

00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:14.240
it's very fascinating because all of the different

00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:17.119
things, like you were saying with the flaps and

00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:20.539
the different terminology that he used. And I

00:30:20.539 --> 00:30:22.460
think the next bit will be very interesting where

00:30:22.460 --> 00:30:25.079
we maybe talk about. about suspects or favorite

00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:28.960
candidates to be him and stuff. But real quick

00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:31.519
about the cigars, I'm probably over halfway through,

00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:35.039
Mike. Oh, I'm about as far as you are. I took

00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:37.400
my wrappers off. I was babbling, so you guys

00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:39.160
got to smoke a lot faster than you normally do,

00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:41.380
probably. Yeah, usually we were like, oh man,

00:30:41.619 --> 00:30:43.319
you know, if one of us is talking more than the

00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:44.720
other one's way ahead and then we got to try

00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:49.279
and catch up. But it's growing on me really drastically,

00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:52.279
I think. It's a very pleasant medium -bodied

00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:55.519
cigar. Yeah, it's yeah, it's very nice. The fact

00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:58.160
that it looks so cool makes me want to like it.

00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:00.259
So that might be part of it, too. You know, I'm

00:31:00.259 --> 00:31:03.279
getting the response I want because I want to

00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:06.740
like it. And it's not bad at all. Not bad at

00:31:06.740 --> 00:31:09.400
all. I will say, Ryan, that you answered one

00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:11.700
of my questions because in one of the interviews

00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:14.900
I listened to you on, you see, he said he ordered

00:31:14.900 --> 00:31:18.700
a bourbon and soda and soda here in Minnesota.

00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:22.599
can mean pretty much any form of pop, including

00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:25.440
soda water. Like anything that's carbonated can

00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:28.640
be called soda. So 7 -Up is specific. And I was

00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:29.960
like, I wonder if it was like... Well, in down

00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:32.440
south, we call that a Coke. So yeah, like down

00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:34.240
south, if you go into a restaurant, they'll say,

00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:36.140
what kind of Coke do you want? And I want a Sprite.

00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:40.039
So like, it's weird. Soda is Coke in our vernacular.

00:31:40.220 --> 00:31:42.160
So yeah, but soda is definitely, we would call

00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:44.960
that a Yankee thing or pop. Pop's the most Yankee

00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.599
-ish, as we would say. We're Pops. We're Pop

00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:51.019
here. Soda is club soda, specifically here. Okay,

00:31:51.019 --> 00:31:54.160
so Pop is like Coke to you guys. So, okay, gotcha.

00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:56.980
Yes, yeah, Pop is like Coke. It was bourbon and

00:31:56.980 --> 00:31:59.980
7 -Up, which, you know, apparently... I mean,

00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.220
look, we're so we're such nerds that we've tried

00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:04.619
to, like, figure out which bourbon was served

00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:07.180
on the plane on that on that day, trying to figure

00:32:07.180 --> 00:32:09.740
out, you know, and the FBI even like you can

00:32:09.740 --> 00:32:12.420
look in one of the things you find with these

00:32:12.420 --> 00:32:15.740
FBI files I was mentioning is them doing research

00:32:15.740 --> 00:32:18.059
on this. Cooper smoked Raleigh cigarettes, for

00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:20.220
example. OK, so they can look and see what kind

00:32:20.220 --> 00:32:22.559
of person smoked Raleigh cigarettes and say who

00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:25.079
was the. Was this guy a middle class guy or upper

00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:27.500
class guy or lower class? And Raleigh actually

00:32:27.500 --> 00:32:30.019
has a bad reputation. Actually, my own research

00:32:30.019 --> 00:32:33.619
showed that Raleigh cigarettes were for basically,

00:32:33.700 --> 00:32:36.539
of all the main cigarette brands at the time,

00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:38.519
they had the lowest education rate for people.

00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:41.660
So they had like the lowest education rate for

00:32:41.660 --> 00:32:45.700
smokers. The lowest amount of college degrees,

00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:48.299
I think, of like 20 tobacco companies was Raleigh.

00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:50.339
So I don't know what that means for Cooper, but

00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:52.640
the FBI looked into that. The FBI looked into

00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:54.619
like, what kind of person drank a bourbon and

00:32:54.619 --> 00:32:57.019
seven up, right? Who would do that? Trying to

00:32:57.019 --> 00:32:58.880
figure out, narrow it down who this guy might

00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.279
be. But as I said, we don't know a daggum thing

00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:04.259
about this guy because he didn't say much. He

00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:07.700
was seen by, I mean, we've got 10, we have 10

00:33:07.700 --> 00:33:11.619
eyewitnesses, okay? And only, I would say, two

00:33:11.619 --> 00:33:14.220
of them had any sort of real conversation with

00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:16.299
this guy, okay? It was the two stewardesses,

00:33:16.460 --> 00:33:19.339
two of the three stewardesses. But that's it.

00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.849
And then he's gone. left nothing and he looked

00:33:22.849 --> 00:33:25.490
like you know if people people remember that

00:33:25.490 --> 00:33:28.589
skit from mad tv of the asian lady saying uh

00:33:28.589 --> 00:33:31.089
he looked like a man you know there's a skit

00:33:31.089 --> 00:33:32.769
where the he looked like a man everything she

00:33:32.769 --> 00:33:34.809
says you know just describe the guy who robbed

00:33:34.809 --> 00:33:37.069
you he looked like a man well that's like every

00:33:37.069 --> 00:33:38.990
time i read db cooper's physical description

00:33:38.990 --> 00:33:40.849
and i just say he looked like a man because like

00:33:40.849 --> 00:33:43.009
that's all they could say he had a part his his

00:33:43.009 --> 00:33:46.529
hair was black his nose was small but the only

00:33:46.529 --> 00:33:49.009
physical feature that he really had that is notable

00:33:49.009 --> 00:33:52.019
was his lower lip he had a what they called a

00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:54.960
protruding lower lip. And something was unique,

00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:57.220
something was unique enough about his lip to

00:33:57.220 --> 00:34:00.259
where several years later, the FBI were showing

00:34:00.259 --> 00:34:03.180
photos of a suspect to Tina Mucklow, who's the

00:34:03.180 --> 00:34:04.960
main stewardess was named Tina. They were showing

00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.220
photos and she goes, hey, that guy's lip. looks

00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:10.460
very similar to cooper's lip so like years later

00:34:10.460 --> 00:34:12.519
she remembers what this guy's lip looked like

00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:14.900
so clearly it was distinctive but that's really

00:34:14.900 --> 00:34:17.800
the only feature he had his skin was dark too

00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.099
he had olive skin the only stewardess who saw

00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:21.440
him without his sunglasses on if you remember

00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:23.599
earlier i mentioned this first stewardess the

00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:25.500
one he handed the note to is not the one he sat

00:34:25.500 --> 00:34:27.480
with the whole time she freaked out a little

00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:29.340
bit and ran to the cockpit with the note and

00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:31.079
never came back Because she was probably crying

00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:32.519
up there. And they kept her up there the whole

00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:33.500
time. Because they didn't want the passengers

00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:36.039
to see some stewardess crying. So the first stewardess's

00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:38.280
name was Flo. She describes him. Remember, she

00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:40.059
had a staring contest with the guy without his

00:34:40.059 --> 00:34:42.159
sunglasses on. So once he handed her the note,

00:34:42.219 --> 00:34:43.800
he put his sunglasses on. Once he became the

00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.239
hijacker, he put his sunglasses on. But she looked

00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:48.460
in his eyes for a while, and she had many interactions

00:34:48.460 --> 00:34:51.739
with the guy. She mixed in his drink and brought

00:34:51.739 --> 00:34:55.099
his change back. And 15 minutes after getting

00:34:55.099 --> 00:34:57.659
off the plane, she tells the FBI he appeared

00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:00.619
to be of Latin descent. And we have another witness

00:35:00.619 --> 00:35:04.420
who says that Cooper appeared to be Mexican or

00:35:04.420 --> 00:35:07.039
perhaps Native American. And all of our witnesses,

00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:10.840
except for the college kid. Nine of the ten used

00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:13.800
the term dark complexion or olive complexion.

00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:18.119
So his skin tone was dark. So he may have been

00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:22.239
Latin of some sort or Native American. He had

00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:24.679
high cheekbones as well, which is a Native American

00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:27.119
trait and could have been Native American, but

00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:29.420
or some kind of mixture. But he wasn't like your

00:35:29.420 --> 00:35:31.369
standard white guy. It may have been Italian

00:35:31.369 --> 00:35:32.949
or something, but he was, they used the term

00:35:32.949 --> 00:35:34.630
swarthy, which isn't a word we use much anymore,

00:35:34.769 --> 00:35:36.389
but like that was a term they used back then.

00:35:36.469 --> 00:35:39.090
So passengers called him swarthy. He was dark

00:35:39.090 --> 00:35:41.469
skinned. And that wasn't just the low lights

00:35:41.469 --> 00:35:43.730
of the airplane. People say that. Maybe it was

00:35:43.730 --> 00:35:45.150
just the low lighting or bad lighting, but because

00:35:45.150 --> 00:35:47.710
the ticket agent who sold him the ticket. And

00:35:47.710 --> 00:35:50.289
the gate agent who took his ticket said, also

00:35:50.289 --> 00:35:52.369
described him as olive and dark complected. So

00:35:52.369 --> 00:35:54.789
there's that. Sure. And then I wanted to bring

00:35:54.789 --> 00:35:57.090
up, because again, I listened to some of your

00:35:57.090 --> 00:35:59.789
stuff. They threw away the cigarettes, famously.

00:35:59.849 --> 00:36:01.710
They destroyed them, yeah. And they supposedly

00:36:01.710 --> 00:36:04.869
have some hair. Yeah, okay. Have they tested

00:36:04.869 --> 00:36:07.510
this hair against any of the databases? Because

00:36:07.510 --> 00:36:10.550
we've recently had murders solved in Minnesota.

00:36:10.929 --> 00:36:13.190
Don't start with the hair. Don't start with the

00:36:13.190 --> 00:36:16.079
hair. Yeah, the niece. Yeah, the niece. Well,

00:36:16.179 --> 00:36:18.199
my hair is rapidly leaving, as I'm sure everybody

00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:20.280
can see. Not that you two gentlemen have anything

00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:24.500
to brag about. But yeah, you know, like a niece

00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:27.199
or a distant relative of some kind, anything

00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.320
like that. So, OK, so the forensics. OK, so here's

00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.920
what we have. All right. So there are three ways

00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:35.199
that we could could have traced Cooper, three

00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:38.710
ways that we could have. OK. First is the cigarettes.

00:36:38.789 --> 00:36:41.289
He smoked seven cigarettes. There were eight

00:36:41.289 --> 00:36:42.889
cigarettes in the ashtray because he offered

00:36:42.889 --> 00:36:44.889
the stewardess one, and she took it. He actually

00:36:44.889 --> 00:36:47.230
peer pressured her into a cigarette. I think

00:36:47.230 --> 00:36:48.590
I mentioned earlier, I didn't get to finish it,

00:36:48.630 --> 00:36:50.570
but he had his hand in the briefcase bomb the

00:36:50.570 --> 00:36:53.489
whole time, his right hand. So she lit his cigarettes

00:36:53.489 --> 00:36:57.170
for him with matches and stuff. And at one point,

00:36:57.190 --> 00:36:59.909
he was like, are you a smoker? And she goes,

00:37:00.010 --> 00:37:02.550
no, I quit recently. He goes, well, but I bet

00:37:02.550 --> 00:37:04.269
you still want one. And she's like, yeah, sure.

00:37:04.489 --> 00:37:08.130
So one of those cigarettes is hers. But what

00:37:08.130 --> 00:37:10.389
happened was the only, this is before DNA, right?

00:37:10.449 --> 00:37:14.150
This is 1971. So all they had was, the only thing

00:37:14.150 --> 00:37:16.469
you would use cigarettes for is fingerprints,

00:37:16.730 --> 00:37:19.590
okay? Which was the DNA of the time. And they

00:37:19.590 --> 00:37:23.389
sent, so the real villains, as you'll learn in

00:37:23.389 --> 00:37:25.969
this case, are the Las Vegas FBI office, okay?

00:37:26.590 --> 00:37:29.230
So the plane lands in Reno, which means that

00:37:29.230 --> 00:37:32.269
all the things on the plane are under the jurisdiction

00:37:32.269 --> 00:37:34.929
of the Vegas FBI office, because Reno's near

00:37:34.929 --> 00:37:37.929
Vegas, right? So all the physical things taken

00:37:37.929 --> 00:37:39.909
from the plane were in the custody of the FBI's

00:37:39.909 --> 00:37:41.929
Vegas office. Now, the Vegas office sends these

00:37:41.929 --> 00:37:44.289
cigarette butts to the crime lab in Quantico

00:37:44.289 --> 00:37:46.829
and says, hey, do you see any fingerprints on

00:37:46.829 --> 00:37:49.050
this? And if you don't see any fingerprints on

00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:50.909
it, feel free to destroy them. Now, remember...

00:37:51.260 --> 00:37:53.780
We can read all of these files. We have all these

00:37:53.780 --> 00:37:55.380
files now. We have all these internal memos.

00:37:55.380 --> 00:37:56.980
That's the brilliant part about this. It's not

00:37:56.980 --> 00:37:58.559
a mystery what happened to the cigarettes. We

00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:00.099
now know what happened to the cigarettes. They

00:38:00.099 --> 00:38:01.679
say you can destroy them if there was no fingerprints.

00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:03.880
Well, the crime lab is smart enough not to destroy

00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:06.000
evidence. So they send it back to Vegas. And

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.480
Vegas, when Vegas gets it back, they throw them

00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:09.920
in the trash can. They literally throw them in

00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:13.000
the trash can. Because they're just nasty cigarettes

00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:15.219
and there's no fingerprints. Now, so the cigarettes

00:38:15.219 --> 00:38:17.659
are gone forever. Number two, they found a hair,

00:38:17.820 --> 00:38:19.320
well, they found two hairs, but they found a

00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:23.900
arm hair and a head hair on the headrest, on

00:38:23.900 --> 00:38:25.860
the head cloth, okay? Back then, those planes

00:38:25.860 --> 00:38:28.420
had head cloths. And they found those and they

00:38:28.420 --> 00:38:30.699
preserved those and they put them on a microscope

00:38:30.699 --> 00:38:33.280
slide. Now, back then, there was a thing called

00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:36.570
hair microscopy. So before DNA. Hair microscopy

00:38:36.570 --> 00:38:39.030
was like you would look at somebody's hair under

00:38:39.030 --> 00:38:40.909
a microscope and compare it to a hair from a

00:38:40.909 --> 00:38:42.909
crime scene. That's what they did. It's been

00:38:42.909 --> 00:38:45.849
proven to be quack science. And in the late 90s,

00:38:45.849 --> 00:38:47.630
the Supreme Court said you can't use it as evidence.

00:38:47.789 --> 00:38:49.690
And the FBI had to do a whole bunch of new trials

00:38:49.690 --> 00:38:51.030
and things for people who had been convicted

00:38:51.030 --> 00:38:53.489
of this hair microscopy. So anyway, so they had

00:38:53.489 --> 00:38:56.130
this hair slide with the hairs on them. Well,

00:38:56.170 --> 00:38:58.369
that's missing, okay? They have no idea where

00:38:58.369 --> 00:39:02.190
it is. It went missing in 1984. Now, again, another

00:39:02.190 --> 00:39:04.389
source of DNA is the hair slide, is the hair,

00:39:04.469 --> 00:39:06.639
right? I mean... Easily. In fact, at CooperCon,

00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:09.019
you'll like this. So at CooperCon last year,

00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:11.679
one of our key speakers was a woman named Colleen

00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:14.219
Fitzpatrick. She solved the Somerton Man case.

00:39:14.300 --> 00:39:15.739
If you know that case, the Somerton Man, the

00:39:15.739 --> 00:39:18.099
guy who washed up on shore in Australia, you

00:39:18.099 --> 00:39:20.679
know, with no identification. There's a she solved

00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:22.719
the there's a case called the boy in the box

00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:25.739
in like Massachusetts or somewhere. So she's

00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:28.360
a DNA like wizard. And so she came to talk about

00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:30.039
the DNA of the Cooper case. And really, the hair

00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:33.150
is the only. thing we could have now, but the

00:39:33.150 --> 00:39:34.789
hair is missing. So it's like, oh, great. And

00:39:34.789 --> 00:39:38.190
now the third source of DNA possibly would be

00:39:38.190 --> 00:39:41.070
from his tie that he kept. His tie that he wore

00:39:41.070 --> 00:39:44.250
and left on the plane on accident. Okay. Well,

00:39:44.429 --> 00:39:48.010
the FBI, when DNA, it's really fascinating to

00:39:48.010 --> 00:39:50.269
read these FBI files because we can see how frustrated

00:39:50.269 --> 00:39:52.429
these guys are, these FBI agents, because we

00:39:52.429 --> 00:39:53.789
can read their internal memos as they're typing

00:39:53.789 --> 00:39:56.780
away. And in the late 90s, with OJ going on and

00:39:56.780 --> 00:39:58.099
all this other stuff, they're like, DNA, that's

00:39:58.099 --> 00:40:00.000
interesting. So the guy who was assigned to the

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.199
Cooper case, he's like, what DNA do we have?

00:40:03.690 --> 00:40:05.829
There's the hair, the cigarettes. And he sends

00:40:05.829 --> 00:40:07.789
to the Vegas office. Remember, the Vegas office.

00:40:08.010 --> 00:40:10.090
So let me back up a little bit. The Seattle FBI

00:40:10.090 --> 00:40:12.010
office are who controls the Cooper case because

00:40:12.010 --> 00:40:14.329
the crime actually happened in Seattle. So it's

00:40:14.329 --> 00:40:17.170
their case. OK, well, Seattle. But remember,

00:40:17.309 --> 00:40:19.550
Vegas kept the physical evidence. So Seattle

00:40:19.550 --> 00:40:22.030
in the late 90s sends a memo to Vegas saying,

00:40:22.110 --> 00:40:24.789
hey, send us all the Cooper physical stuff so

00:40:24.789 --> 00:40:27.050
we can have it checked for DNA. And Vegas kind

00:40:27.050 --> 00:40:31.380
of sheepishly is like, uh, uh. Well, we lost

00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:34.099
the hair slide and we threw the cigarettes in

00:40:34.099 --> 00:40:38.539
the trash. Oh, my God. So all they have to test

00:40:38.539 --> 00:40:41.639
for DNA is the tie. And when they test the tie,

00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:46.099
it has three partial DNA profiles on it. OK,

00:40:46.179 --> 00:40:48.460
so which one is Cooper's? In my opinion, none.

00:40:48.659 --> 00:40:51.579
And the reason I say that is because this tie,

00:40:51.860 --> 00:40:55.530
they put this tie in the mail. The regular mail

00:40:55.530 --> 00:40:58.190
and send it to different FBI offices. For example,

00:40:58.250 --> 00:41:01.030
if there was a suspect in Minneapolis or somewhere,

00:41:01.289 --> 00:41:04.510
the Vegas office who had the tie, they would

00:41:04.510 --> 00:41:08.269
send it to the office in Minnesota and they would

00:41:08.269 --> 00:41:10.150
go show it to the ex -wife of this guy. Did your

00:41:10.150 --> 00:41:12.369
husband ever have a tie like this? That sort

00:41:12.369 --> 00:41:14.570
of thing. And this happened a bunch. This tie

00:41:14.570 --> 00:41:17.119
was passed around. like a joint at a frat party.

00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:19.179
I mean, it was, and nobody's wearing gloves.

00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:21.119
Nobody's handling it with care. I mean, they're

00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:22.860
probably sitting in the car as they're going

00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:24.599
through Burger King. You know, it's just a tie.

00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:26.980
There's no DNA in their brain thinking like that,

00:41:26.980 --> 00:41:29.440
right? So this tie is highly contaminated. And

00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:32.659
in fact, the three profiles we have, the three

00:41:32.659 --> 00:41:35.500
DNA profiles we have are so partial that the

00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:38.420
crime lab estimated that something like 15 million

00:41:38.420 --> 00:41:42.199
people. could test hot as a match to one of these

00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:44.840
profiles. So really useless because we don't

00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:46.800
know if it's Cooper's anyway. And, you know,

00:41:46.820 --> 00:41:49.219
just because you come up hot, that means you're

00:41:49.219 --> 00:41:52.340
one of 15 million people. who shares DNA with

00:41:52.340 --> 00:41:56.500
probably an FBI agent, not even Cooper. So there's

00:41:56.500 --> 00:41:58.480
no DNA on this case, except for the hair slide,

00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.699
if we ever find it. I mean, I don't think they

00:42:01.699 --> 00:42:03.440
would destroy a hair slide because it does have

00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:05.420
an exhibit sticker on it and everything. It's

00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:06.800
just missing. It's probably in the Vegas office

00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:09.059
somewhere in a file. So yeah. It's probably at

00:42:09.059 --> 00:42:13.969
some FBI's agent's safe at home. I don't know.

00:42:14.010 --> 00:42:16.289
It's interesting. It's funny how a lot of people

00:42:16.289 --> 00:42:18.429
with the Cooper case, because they were so tight

00:42:18.429 --> 00:42:20.150
-lipped, if you remember me saying earlier that

00:42:20.150 --> 00:42:23.690
the witnesses weren't talking much and the FBI

00:42:23.690 --> 00:42:24.949
weren't talking much because it was an active

00:42:24.949 --> 00:42:28.130
case. So you've got 40 -something years of, why

00:42:28.130 --> 00:42:30.030
is no one saying anything? What's this mystery?

00:42:30.230 --> 00:42:33.289
And it just makes people think there's more mystery

00:42:33.289 --> 00:42:35.429
to it than not. Why can't the FBI? Why is this

00:42:35.429 --> 00:42:38.210
the only unsolved hijacking ever? You know, this

00:42:38.210 --> 00:42:40.429
sort of stuff. Why can't they solve this? So

00:42:40.429 --> 00:42:43.590
people either think that... The FBI are incompetent

00:42:43.590 --> 00:42:45.269
or they think they're covering something up.

00:42:45.369 --> 00:42:47.309
What's really funny is when people think they're

00:42:47.309 --> 00:42:48.989
incompetent and they're covering it up successfully.

00:42:49.150 --> 00:42:51.329
It's like, wait, that doesn't work. Either they're

00:42:51.329 --> 00:42:54.429
geniuses or they're not, you know. But it's not

00:42:54.429 --> 00:42:57.590
incompetence. We can read these files. I have

00:42:57.590 --> 00:43:00.369
literally, I have a database. I collect, they're

00:43:00.369 --> 00:43:05.030
all OCR scans. I have about 46 ,000 files now.

00:43:05.190 --> 00:43:07.449
And I mean, I can type in cigarettes and see

00:43:07.449 --> 00:43:09.110
what happened to them, right? That's how. But

00:43:09.110 --> 00:43:11.150
you can read their frustration. I mean, they

00:43:11.150 --> 00:43:13.940
tried. I mean, you make 85 ,000 documents. You're

00:43:13.940 --> 00:43:15.780
trying to solve this case. You know what I'm

00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:17.219
saying? Like it wasn't on the back burner. They

00:43:17.219 --> 00:43:19.619
were trying, but at a certain point, all they

00:43:19.619 --> 00:43:21.619
could do was sit and wait by the phone for somebody

00:43:21.619 --> 00:43:23.980
to call because there's no, there was, I mean,

00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:26.239
he left so little information about himself that

00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:28.480
there's really nothing to go off of because he

00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:30.699
said very little. One of the only things that

00:43:30.699 --> 00:43:33.679
I have come to the conclusion about is I really,

00:43:33.739 --> 00:43:36.039
I don't think Cooper was American. And I've come

00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:38.679
to that conclusion on an opinion, I guess, mainly

00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:41.449
because when Cooper asked for his money, We're

00:43:41.449 --> 00:43:44.070
not exactly sure the terminology he used. He

00:43:44.070 --> 00:43:46.849
either said, I want negotiable American currency,

00:43:46.929 --> 00:43:50.429
or I want circulated U .S. currency. Now, we're

00:43:50.429 --> 00:43:52.590
Americans, all three of us. If we robbed a bank,

00:43:52.710 --> 00:43:55.329
we would never say, I want $200 ,000 in negotiable

00:43:55.329 --> 00:43:57.789
American currency. We'd say, I want $200 ,000.

00:43:57.849 --> 00:44:00.210
I want $200 ,000. There's only one currency to

00:44:00.210 --> 00:44:02.449
us. It's our dollar, right? By God, we're in

00:44:02.449 --> 00:44:05.349
America. Why would we assume you? Yeah, and there's

00:44:05.349 --> 00:44:07.269
only one language, right? And that's English.

00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:13.159
Yeah, right. Exactly. But someone like a Canadian,

00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:15.440
for example, especially a Canadian who perhaps

00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.320
lives in Vancouver area. Vancouver, Canada is

00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:20.460
really close to the border. Big, huge, major

00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:23.099
city. And they do. They have to specify Canadian

00:44:23.099 --> 00:44:25.119
dollars or American dollars all the time because

00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:27.539
they go back and forth. So the fact that he said

00:44:27.539 --> 00:44:30.059
something like that, American or U .S. currency,

00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:31.900
I'm not sure which one. The fact that he put

00:44:31.900 --> 00:44:35.139
a qualifier on it at all might be a clue that

00:44:35.139 --> 00:44:37.309
he's not American because... That's just a weird,

00:44:37.449 --> 00:44:40.429
who would say that? That's true. I say USD, but

00:44:40.429 --> 00:44:42.369
I've lived next to the Canadian border for a

00:44:42.369 --> 00:44:45.730
long time. And where I live and grew up, you

00:44:45.730 --> 00:44:47.369
can put Canadian money in a lot of the vending

00:44:47.369 --> 00:44:50.090
machines and it'll accept it. Okay, that's right.

00:44:50.210 --> 00:44:52.389
Yeah, where you live is close to the border.

00:44:52.429 --> 00:44:53.809
So yeah, that makes sense that you would understand

00:44:53.809 --> 00:44:56.989
that. You understand that. Yeah. But as an American,

00:44:57.110 --> 00:44:58.909
you would never say, I want US currency. No,

00:44:59.030 --> 00:45:02.590
I would say. $200 ,000 for sure. Yeah, just $200

00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:05.170
,000. I mean, $200 bucks, cash, whatever. So

00:45:05.170 --> 00:45:08.050
there's that. But yeah, in the FBI, it's said

00:45:08.050 --> 00:45:09.809
that they have investigated over a thousand suspects.

00:45:10.010 --> 00:45:13.889
Not exactly true, but a lot. I mean, at least

00:45:13.889 --> 00:45:17.110
over 900 names. I have a spreadsheet that has

00:45:17.110 --> 00:45:19.510
about 500 of them now that they investigated.

00:45:19.550 --> 00:45:21.670
Now, most of these suspects were just people

00:45:21.670 --> 00:45:24.230
who were like, hey. My cousin looks like this

00:45:24.230 --> 00:45:26.190
guy or my neighbor looks like this sketch or

00:45:26.190 --> 00:45:28.769
whatever. And the problem is the famous Cooper

00:45:28.769 --> 00:45:31.090
sketch that we all know and love, where he looks

00:45:31.090 --> 00:45:32.690
like a little alien sort of with the sunglasses

00:45:32.690 --> 00:45:35.829
on, right? That sketch was made with the three

00:45:35.829 --> 00:45:37.989
stewardesses there with the sketch artist two

00:45:37.989 --> 00:45:40.070
days after it happened. So that's really our

00:45:40.070 --> 00:45:42.650
best sketch. I mean, and if you look at the one

00:45:42.650 --> 00:45:45.469
thing that's cool about the FBI files is one

00:45:45.469 --> 00:45:47.210
of the things that the FBI did is they would

00:45:47.210 --> 00:45:50.300
take photos of suspects to the witnesses. And

00:45:50.300 --> 00:45:52.760
they would say, hey, is this guy Cooper? Does

00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:54.739
this look familiar to you? And they would do

00:45:54.739 --> 00:45:58.110
them 10 at a time sometimes. And the FBI. If

00:45:58.110 --> 00:46:00.349
people don't know about the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover's

00:46:00.349 --> 00:46:02.769
FBI, they document everything. I mean, they take

00:46:02.769 --> 00:46:04.849
a piss, they documented it. I mean, it is documenting

00:46:04.849 --> 00:46:06.610
everything. So we have exactly what the witnesses

00:46:06.610 --> 00:46:09.070
said when viewing these photographs. So that

00:46:09.070 --> 00:46:10.329
can kind of give us a thing. They'll go, oh,

00:46:10.369 --> 00:46:11.869
that guy looks like, they can say, well, that

00:46:11.869 --> 00:46:14.030
guy doesn't look like Cooper, but his nose looks

00:46:14.030 --> 00:46:16.690
like Cooper's nose. Or they'll say his face shape.

00:46:16.889 --> 00:46:19.110
And so if I have this guy's name, I can go on

00:46:19.110 --> 00:46:21.889
Ancestry .com and go try to find a photo of this

00:46:21.889 --> 00:46:24.679
suspect. And you can kind of look in. They do

00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:27.079
usually look like that first alien looking sketch.

00:46:27.179 --> 00:46:30.420
Very narrow head, small little nose. So that's

00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:31.619
kind of cool where you can read what the witnesses

00:46:31.619 --> 00:46:34.960
say about them. But a thousand suspects, roughly,

00:46:35.300 --> 00:46:37.880
you know, none of them. There are only a few

00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:41.900
who the FBI did not eliminate. And those are

00:46:41.900 --> 00:46:44.239
interesting guys. But in my opinion, we don't

00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:45.980
know who Cooper is. And we may never know because

00:46:45.980 --> 00:46:48.119
he could have been any of millions of people.

00:46:48.739 --> 00:46:51.179
But there are some decent suspects out there.

00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:54.199
I've been reading the, and this is the one you

00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:56.860
were kind of talking about, The Last Master Outlaw.

00:46:56.980 --> 00:47:00.000
Yeah, garbage. By Thomas Colbert. Garbage, yeah.

00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:03.710
And Tom. Zoloski. Zoloski. I was going to say

00:47:03.710 --> 00:47:05.710
that name, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's about Robert

00:47:05.710 --> 00:47:07.250
Rackstraw. You know, I've been working through

00:47:07.250 --> 00:47:09.670
it. And the further I've gotten into it, the

00:47:09.670 --> 00:47:11.590
less convinced I am it's actually Rackstraw.

00:47:11.710 --> 00:47:15.050
Well, good. Because it's not. That's the whole

00:47:15.050 --> 00:47:16.989
fun. Yeah, that's the whole fun of it. And the

00:47:16.989 --> 00:47:19.130
other one was, and, you know, some of the subreddit

00:47:19.130 --> 00:47:21.469
stuff was like, you should read where was Skip.

00:47:21.670 --> 00:47:23.130
Yeah. And so I'm going to read that one too.

00:47:23.869 --> 00:47:27.130
You know, and then I've got Skyjack, which I

00:47:27.130 --> 00:47:31.210
guess is a good introduction to it by Jeffrey

00:47:31.210 --> 00:47:34.289
Gray. Yep. And then I've got this one here, D

00:47:34.289 --> 00:47:36.110
.B. Cooper and the FBI Third Edition by Bruce

00:47:36.110 --> 00:47:37.869
A. Smith. Yes, that's the Bible. Which goes through

00:47:37.869 --> 00:47:41.230
a lot of FBI files and stuff from what I've kind

00:47:41.230 --> 00:47:43.130
of flipped through. Yeah. But the Rackstraw thing

00:47:43.130 --> 00:47:45.769
is interesting because they're seemingly super

00:47:45.769 --> 00:47:47.590
convinced that not only is Rackstraw Cooper,

00:47:47.730 --> 00:47:49.929
but Rackstraw is also this Norman De Winter guy.

00:47:51.050 --> 00:47:53.989
perusing about right in you know whatever whatever

00:47:53.989 --> 00:47:56.730
and um and and i think the biggest thing for

00:47:56.730 --> 00:47:58.869
me is not having the background that you have

00:47:58.869 --> 00:48:02.050
but the the all the stuff that i read that you

00:48:02.050 --> 00:48:04.730
wrote on the wikipedia about the cooper the whole

00:48:04.730 --> 00:48:07.190
the whole like five hour ordeal right was he

00:48:07.190 --> 00:48:09.610
was very calm collected knew exactly what he

00:48:09.610 --> 00:48:11.449
was doing and everything i'm reading about rock

00:48:11.449 --> 00:48:14.170
straws this guy's an asshole yes like he's flying

00:48:14.170 --> 00:48:15.710
by the seat of his pants he has no idea what's

00:48:15.710 --> 00:48:18.619
going on Maybe he's got this little scheme here

00:48:18.619 --> 00:48:20.639
and that little scheme there. He's one of those

00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:23.119
minions in The Sopranos TV show, right? That's

00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:26.360
always fucking things up. And just somehow is

00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:28.780
charming enough to get out of a lot of situations,

00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:32.480
but not to get away with stuff. No, he got caught.

00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:35.179
I mean, he was caught. So that's kind of my thing.

00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:37.159
So it is very interesting because, of course,

00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:39.320
it's fun to read that kind of stuff. Right. Like,

00:48:39.380 --> 00:48:41.099
oh, it could be this guy. But then they're kind

00:48:41.099 --> 00:48:43.719
of like, OK, so he was he was not convicted,

00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:45.280
but he was accused of killing his stepfather.

00:48:45.420 --> 00:48:47.679
But he got off on that. So, of course, he's a

00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:50.639
bad guy. So maybe also. Cooper. Maybe he's not.

00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:52.599
Maybe he's Norman De Winter. Maybe he's not.

00:48:52.739 --> 00:48:54.960
Maybe he's this other guy down here. Maybe he's

00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:56.280
stealing explosives here and stealing explosives

00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:59.800
there. But it's not terribly convincing to me.

00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:04.360
No, Rackstraw... Rackstraw's problem is his age,

00:49:04.420 --> 00:49:07.000
for one thing. Rackstraw was 27. And if you look

00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:09.260
at... For people who are interested in this,

00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:12.320
my website is norjack .org. I mean, I'm D .B.

00:49:12.340 --> 00:49:13.719
Cooper Sleuth on YouTube. I have lots of videos

00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:15.980
on YouTube. So look up D .B. Cooper Sleuth. But

00:49:15.980 --> 00:49:18.840
my website is Norjack. NORJAK is the FBI code

00:49:18.840 --> 00:49:21.500
word for the Cooper hijacking. It means Northwest

00:49:21.500 --> 00:49:25.400
Hijack, NORJAK. So N -O -R -J -A -K dot org.

00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:27.780
And you go to the suspects page and I have a

00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:29.920
photograph on there of Robert Rackstraw in October

00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:32.820
of 71. So a month before the hijacking. He's

00:49:32.820 --> 00:49:36.440
a good looking guy, full head of hair, you know,

00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:41.119
kind of big, big, burly guy. Whereas Cooper was.

00:49:41.759 --> 00:49:43.980
losing his hair, okay? Cooper had a receding

00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:45.980
hairline, may have had a bald spot. One of the

00:49:45.980 --> 00:49:47.280
witnesses, one of the stewardesses said he was

00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:50.159
partially or slightly balding, but he definitely

00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:52.320
had all the drawings. He's got receding hair,

00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:54.940
his temples were receding. He was an older guy

00:49:54.940 --> 00:49:57.559
too. Cooper was, the very first description we

00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:00.079
have of Cooper was the woman who, the girl Flo,

00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:03.179
who we hand, remember, he hands a note to this

00:50:03.179 --> 00:50:05.199
girl. She takes down his ransom demands, goes

00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:06.920
up the cockpit, starts crying. They don't send

00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:08.500
her back, right? This girl. Well, we have her

00:50:08.500 --> 00:50:11.230
handwritten notes. to keep her mind occupied,

00:50:11.429 --> 00:50:13.429
stop crying, they hand her a notepad and say,

00:50:13.469 --> 00:50:16.510
take notes. And as Cooper is sitting 70 feet

00:50:16.510 --> 00:50:19.590
behind her in the plane, she writes down a description.

00:50:19.670 --> 00:50:23.550
She goes, 6 '1", 180 pounds, in his 50s, right?

00:50:23.670 --> 00:50:26.329
So she goes in his 50s. Now, the stewardess has

00:50:26.329 --> 00:50:28.889
eventually lowered that to, they thought, mid

00:50:28.889 --> 00:50:31.409
-40s. But the ticket, the gate agent thought

00:50:31.409 --> 00:50:33.389
he was 50. One of the other passengers thought

00:50:33.389 --> 00:50:37.369
he was 50. So he was older, for sure. And some

00:50:37.369 --> 00:50:39.880
of the descriptions about the turkey neck. Right.

00:50:39.940 --> 00:50:44.420
Or the the one witness said one witness said

00:50:44.420 --> 00:50:46.519
he had a wrinkled, older mouth. So he was an

00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:49.579
older guy. OK. Rackstraw was young. And as you

00:50:49.579 --> 00:50:52.559
said, Rackstraw was an ass. And yeah, he was

00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:55.260
also a womanizer, too. And a good friend of mine

00:50:55.260 --> 00:50:57.300
who is well known in the Cooper community is

00:50:57.300 --> 00:50:59.780
a guy named Nicky Broughton. Nicky actually got

00:50:59.780 --> 00:51:02.760
into the Cooper case because he was Robert Rackstraw's

00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:05.480
weed man. He sold Robert Rackstraw's weed like.

00:51:05.820 --> 00:51:08.099
you know, back 10 years ago and was just watching

00:51:08.099 --> 00:51:11.420
TV one day and was like, oh my God, that's Bob

00:51:11.420 --> 00:51:14.800
from work who I sell weed to. So that's how he

00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:17.019
got into it. But he says, you know, Ragstraw,

00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:19.539
because he knew the guy, he said this guy could

00:51:19.539 --> 00:51:23.179
not flirt with a girl. Like even in his 70s,

00:51:23.179 --> 00:51:26.039
he was a lech essentially. And he's like, there

00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:28.420
is no way that this guy could have like not made

00:51:28.420 --> 00:51:31.880
a move on these hot babes or, you know, and something

00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:33.920
psychologically, something that's kind of, there's

00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:36.059
a real sidebar, but. I've talked to a psychologist

00:51:36.059 --> 00:51:39.019
about this who discussed this, that the girls

00:51:39.019 --> 00:51:41.539
weren't really afraid of Cooper. So they weren't.

00:51:41.579 --> 00:51:44.320
There are times where after the passengers are

00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:47.179
off the plane, the stewardesses are back there.

00:51:47.420 --> 00:51:49.320
They're shooting the shit with him. They're talking

00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:51.880
about, where are you going to take us? And what's

00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:53.199
that parachute there? I mean, they're just talking

00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:55.820
to him. If a guy has a dynamite bomb, I'm not

00:51:55.820 --> 00:51:58.579
anywhere near that guy. But they seem to like

00:51:58.579 --> 00:52:01.400
him, OK? And the psychologist said that he gave

00:52:01.400 --> 00:52:04.570
off dad vibes. Because he was their dad, he was

00:52:04.570 --> 00:52:07.369
in the mid -40s or 50, and they're 21 years old,

00:52:07.429 --> 00:52:08.849
they're girls, right? This is their dad's age.

00:52:08.949 --> 00:52:11.489
Sure, yeah. And if he was a younger guy, there

00:52:11.489 --> 00:52:13.449
would have been more of a threat of a sexual

00:52:13.449 --> 00:52:15.170
assault or something like this that would have

00:52:15.170 --> 00:52:17.050
made them keep their distance a little bit more.

00:52:17.210 --> 00:52:20.809
Yeah, or an overly rash overreaction or something.

00:52:20.989 --> 00:52:24.230
That kind of, I don't know, confidence or slow

00:52:24.230 --> 00:52:27.409
patience a lot of times comes from age. Yes.

00:52:28.219 --> 00:52:31.139
He didn't seem rushed. He didn't seem, at least

00:52:31.139 --> 00:52:32.880
from, you know, from what I've read, you know,

00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:35.280
he seemed to know what was going on. He maybe

00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:37.179
got frustrated, you know, like, why aren't we

00:52:37.179 --> 00:52:39.159
taking off yet? You know, final fight plan, blah,

00:52:39.179 --> 00:52:42.869
blah, blah. But he wasn't overly... rash with

00:52:42.869 --> 00:52:45.250
things and we can look at the copycat so one

00:52:45.250 --> 00:52:47.570
of the things about cooper is he inspired a rash

00:52:47.570 --> 00:52:50.409
of copycat hijackings there were 16 about 16

00:52:50.409 --> 00:52:53.409
guys in the next few months tried the exact same

00:52:53.409 --> 00:52:55.969
thing sure five of them five of them actually

00:52:55.969 --> 00:52:58.510
got out and jumped parachuted out with money

00:52:58.510 --> 00:53:02.190
tied to them they're all captured but those guys

00:53:02.190 --> 00:53:03.989
were all younger a lot well some of them are

00:53:03.989 --> 00:53:06.090
younger and some are older and we can look at

00:53:06.090 --> 00:53:10.250
this and the younger guys were cussing and they

00:53:10.250 --> 00:53:12.019
were upset at times, and they were sweating.

00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:14.920
And the older hijackers were more chilled out

00:53:14.920 --> 00:53:17.360
because as we're all getting older, you know,

00:53:17.380 --> 00:53:20.760
I say that, the way I describe it is, your give

00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:23.699
a damn button, you know, isn't pushed as easily

00:53:23.699 --> 00:53:26.820
anymore, right? And also, Cooper was prepared

00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:29.559
to die very clearly. He told the stewardess,

00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:31.579
he said, I'll die here today, I don't care. He

00:53:31.579 --> 00:53:33.730
was very like... resigned to his fate almost.

00:53:33.949 --> 00:53:36.010
Sure. And Rackstraw, as you said, was a young

00:53:36.010 --> 00:53:38.550
guy. But Rackstraw had the skill set. No doubt

00:53:38.550 --> 00:53:40.570
about it. I mean, Rackstraw could have done this.

00:53:40.710 --> 00:53:43.920
Yes. But there's, I mean... Rackstraw, interestingly

00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:46.179
enough, made himself a suspect. He was not a

00:53:46.179 --> 00:53:48.900
suspect until he was being extradited from Iran

00:53:48.900 --> 00:53:51.760
to go face trial for murdering his stepdad, which

00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:55.039
he probably did. Yeah, everybody seems to agree

00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:57.280
that he probably did. Yeah, he probably did.

00:53:57.460 --> 00:54:00.500
But when he was being extradited, he was on a

00:54:00.500 --> 00:54:02.960
plane with the FBI. He's like, y 'all haven't

00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:04.780
solved that Cooper case. Well, I could have done

00:54:04.780 --> 00:54:06.280
that. And he started talking about the Cooper

00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:09.420
case. And we have this file in the FBI files.

00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:12.059
Remember, you get 500 a month or so, and you're

00:54:12.059 --> 00:54:13.400
scrolling through these every month. I'm just

00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:15.000
scrolling through these. And then you see one

00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:17.460
about Rackstraw, like some FBI agent contacting

00:54:17.460 --> 00:54:19.460
the Seattle office saying, hey, I took a plane

00:54:19.460 --> 00:54:22.000
ride with a guy who knew a lot about the Cooper

00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:23.840
hijacking and was kind of insinuating that he

00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:25.719
was Cooper. Let's start investigating this guy.

00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:28.079
And they eliminated Rackstraw very quickly because

00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:31.659
his eyes are lightly colored. He's not Mexican

00:54:31.659 --> 00:54:34.889
looking at all. He had a full head of hair. OK.

00:54:35.190 --> 00:54:38.190
And again, they showed his pictures to the stewardesses

00:54:38.190 --> 00:54:39.670
and they're like, hell no, it's not him. So,

00:54:39.670 --> 00:54:42.010
yeah. Well, and the crazy thing about this book,

00:54:42.030 --> 00:54:44.110
too, is is everything's in black and white, which,

00:54:44.130 --> 00:54:46.250
you know, is probably publishing whatever. But

00:54:46.250 --> 00:54:49.210
when I saw the colorized versions of these pictures

00:54:49.210 --> 00:54:52.670
of Rackstraw against the sketches, I was like,

00:54:52.690 --> 00:54:55.190
no, there's no way this doesn't even look. But

00:54:55.190 --> 00:54:57.289
the black and white. Could potentially look like

00:54:57.289 --> 00:54:59.530
him, you know. So it's kind of like. Well, if

00:54:59.530 --> 00:55:01.289
you squint, anybody can look at the Cooper sketch.

00:55:01.489 --> 00:55:03.449
And there's multiple Cooper sketches. There's

00:55:03.449 --> 00:55:05.409
multiple sketches. Oh, yeah. And so, like, on

00:55:05.409 --> 00:55:07.389
my website, if you go to norject .org, you can

00:55:07.389 --> 00:55:09.050
see all the sketches. I mean, there's multiple

00:55:09.050 --> 00:55:11.170
sketches that they did. And that was really confusing

00:55:11.170 --> 00:55:13.110
to people. And the sketches look like different

00:55:13.110 --> 00:55:15.429
people. So it's like. Yeah. You know, it's frustrating.

00:55:15.489 --> 00:55:19.170
But Ragstraw, though, is not a serious suspect.

00:55:19.969 --> 00:55:23.210
Mainly because just his age is just like, this

00:55:23.210 --> 00:55:26.639
guy's not balding or receding hairline. And also

00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:28.760
nothing to do, he's handsome. Okay. If you see

00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:31.019
that picture on my website, Ragstraw is a handsome

00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:34.179
guy. Okay. Cooper was ugly. Something that people

00:55:34.179 --> 00:55:35.940
don't realize about Cooper. One thing we've learned

00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:39.219
from the FBI files is that they've rejected a

00:55:39.219 --> 00:55:41.000
lot of suspects. Whenever they're shown, remember

00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:42.739
the witnesses were shown photos of Cooper or

00:55:42.739 --> 00:55:45.960
photos of suspects. They eliminate a lot of suspects

00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:49.059
simply by saying that guy's too good looking

00:55:49.059 --> 00:55:52.760
to be Cooper. Like lots. Okay. And we have the

00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:54.820
stewardesses after the hijacking calling Cooper

00:55:54.820 --> 00:55:57.889
homely. which is a polite way to say ugly, right?

00:55:58.650 --> 00:56:02.250
So he was not attractive at all. In fact, we

00:56:02.250 --> 00:56:04.889
even have male passengers. There's a male passenger

00:56:04.889 --> 00:56:08.510
who says, who eliminated a suspect by saying,

00:56:08.510 --> 00:56:10.309
that guy's too good looking to be Cooper. So

00:56:10.309 --> 00:56:12.489
like, even the men were like, this guy's not

00:56:12.489 --> 00:56:15.769
attractive. He was weird looking. And Rackstraw's

00:56:15.769 --> 00:56:18.820
not ugly. So there's that. But the other book

00:56:18.820 --> 00:56:21.019
you have, though, that's actually a more realistic

00:56:21.019 --> 00:56:24.059
suspect, in my opinion. Okay, the Skip one? Skip

00:56:24.059 --> 00:56:27.380
Hall, yeah. Now, I'll say this. Skip Hall is

00:56:27.380 --> 00:56:29.280
more likely to be the gunman on the grassy knoll

00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:32.860
than to be Cooper. But he's still a better suspect

00:56:32.860 --> 00:56:36.880
than Rackstraw. And I noticed that they try and

00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:39.340
conflate these guys with a lot of other crimes

00:56:39.340 --> 00:56:42.730
of the time period. And it's like... I don't

00:56:42.730 --> 00:56:45.030
know if that's trying to do like the character

00:56:45.030 --> 00:56:46.449
assassination type of thing where it's like,

00:56:46.469 --> 00:56:48.429
this guy's already a bad guy, so he could also

00:56:48.429 --> 00:56:51.449
be Cooper, you know? And let's just like pile

00:56:51.449 --> 00:56:53.469
it on. We get that a lot. They're like, oh, Cooper

00:56:53.469 --> 00:56:55.349
was the Zodiac killer too. It's like, come on,

00:56:55.349 --> 00:56:59.269
no. It's like, that's a common one. Maybe Cooper

00:56:59.269 --> 00:57:02.429
killed Mussolini. He was Jack the Ripper too.

00:57:03.050 --> 00:57:06.150
Yeah, yeah. So I have a couple of questions real

00:57:06.150 --> 00:57:08.690
quick too. And I know we're getting kind of close.

00:57:08.769 --> 00:57:10.849
And I know the big questions, of course, with

00:57:10.849 --> 00:57:14.340
the Cooper case are, outside of who was he is

00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:18.500
uh did did cooper survive the jump because it

00:57:18.500 --> 00:57:20.739
was a nighttime parachute jump yep a lot of people

00:57:20.739 --> 00:57:23.550
i don't know it seems pretty You know, kind of

00:57:23.550 --> 00:57:26.090
a lot of people say anyone could survive a jump

00:57:26.090 --> 00:57:29.070
at night. Not a big deal. Yeah. I was reading

00:57:29.070 --> 00:57:31.750
one today where somebody fired up Microsoft Flight

00:57:31.750 --> 00:57:33.949
Simulator and was flying the path a lot. And

00:57:33.949 --> 00:57:35.489
they're like, it would be easy for them to jump

00:57:35.489 --> 00:57:37.690
here and here and here and here. Yeah. Use these

00:57:37.690 --> 00:57:40.510
lights as that. And especially if they know the

00:57:40.510 --> 00:57:42.550
plane lingo and stuff like that. And if they're

00:57:42.550 --> 00:57:45.690
trained in parachutes. requesting four and only

00:57:45.690 --> 00:57:47.849
needing one because you're one person, but wanting

00:57:47.849 --> 00:57:49.989
to not get other people off the plane because

00:57:49.989 --> 00:57:52.429
you're going to jump with hostages. It's all

00:57:52.429 --> 00:57:55.110
pre -calculated and not something Rockstraw would

00:57:55.110 --> 00:57:58.710
do. Yeah, exactly. Do you think he did survive

00:57:58.710 --> 00:58:04.230
the jump? Yes, absolutely. I would say 99%, and

00:58:04.230 --> 00:58:07.610
that sounds crazy to say that, but again, it's

00:58:07.610 --> 00:58:09.929
not because I'm a Cooper fanboy. I mean, I wish

00:58:09.929 --> 00:58:12.449
the guy, I mean, not to say I wish he died, but

00:58:12.449 --> 00:58:14.340
he was a jerk. And I don't care if he lived or

00:58:14.340 --> 00:58:17.119
died. Sure. But I follow the evidence and the

00:58:17.119 --> 00:58:19.639
evidence suggests he lived. And in fact, we have

00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:22.519
heard for the longest time that the FBI believed

00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:24.539
he dies or whatever. Well, that's just what they

00:58:24.539 --> 00:58:27.039
told the media because we can see their actual

00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:29.719
files now and they all believe he lived. Okay.

00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:32.500
And I'm friends. I mean, I interviewed one of

00:58:32.500 --> 00:58:35.079
the original, it's on my YouTube channel. I interviewed

00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:37.139
one of the original case agents from 71, the

00:58:37.139 --> 00:58:39.010
only one who's still alive. He was like, oh yeah,

00:58:39.070 --> 00:58:41.070
we all thought he lived. Of course. I mean, when,

00:58:41.210 --> 00:58:43.989
because again, parachutes work. Okay. People

00:58:43.989 --> 00:58:45.989
don't realize that. Like they really, really

00:58:45.989 --> 00:58:49.429
do. Okay. You've got, if you look up skydiving

00:58:49.429 --> 00:58:51.929
accidents, it literally is one in a million.

00:58:52.170 --> 00:58:55.039
Okay. Something like there were, I mean. Every

00:58:55.039 --> 00:58:57.380
year, the U .S. Parachute Association has stats

00:58:57.380 --> 00:59:00.940
online. It's one in a million. And the thing

00:59:00.940 --> 00:59:02.880
about Cooper is the parachute that he jumped

00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:05.400
with, which I actually have behind me a replica,

00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:09.280
was a military emergency bailout rig specifically

00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:13.380
designed by the military for air crew who have

00:59:13.380 --> 00:59:15.679
never jumped out of a plane before. Sure. To

00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:17.800
be jumping out on a death -spiraling, flaming

00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:20.179
aircraft and just pull the ripcord and you'll

00:59:20.179 --> 00:59:23.360
live. So they're designed to always open up efficiently.

00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:27.300
And that's what he had. And again, we know from

00:59:27.300 --> 00:59:29.500
the copycats, five of these guys jumped out the

00:59:29.500 --> 00:59:31.860
same plane, same thing, and they all live just

00:59:31.860 --> 00:59:33.960
fine. And some of them had never even put on

00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:36.840
a parachute and they made it down fine. And the

00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:39.199
thing about Cooper, too, is the main thing is

00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:40.820
the money. OK, we haven't talked about that yet.

00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:43.920
You know, in my next question is, is the money

00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:46.340
in the sandbar is kind of the next question.

00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:49.219
Well, in 1980, a boy named Brian Ingram, who's

00:59:49.219 --> 00:59:50.659
going to be our guest this year at CooperCon,

00:59:50.719 --> 00:59:54.380
I think. Brian, another guy I know, he's in Arkansas,

00:59:54.539 --> 00:59:56.300
a very nice guy. But Brian, when he was about

00:59:56.300 --> 00:59:58.699
eight years old, was digging in the sand along

00:59:58.699 --> 01:00:02.420
the Columbia River and unearthed $6 ,000 of Cooper's

01:00:02.420 --> 01:00:05.059
money. And they tore that beach up and found

01:00:05.059 --> 01:00:08.099
nothing. else from cooper but just this random

01:00:08.099 --> 01:00:10.679
six thousand dollars and what's really crazy

01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:13.820
about that is scientific research has been done

01:00:13.820 --> 01:00:16.539
because there was a lawsuit in the 80s and the

01:00:16.539 --> 01:00:19.280
boy the money the money that was recovered was

01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:22.500
split between the insurance company who paid

01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:24.599
out the two hundred thousand dollars And Brian

01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:27.699
and his family. So he kept about 150 of these

01:00:27.699 --> 01:00:29.760
bills. And he sells them off. I mean, these things

01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:32.300
sell for $10 ,000 these days. I mean, it's crazy.

01:00:32.420 --> 01:00:35.119
Oh, I believe it. And he's been selling them

01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:37.860
a little bit. Anyway, he has been gracious enough

01:00:37.860 --> 01:00:41.039
to allow scientists to look at the money. And

01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:44.219
Tom Kay is a scientist. He's analyzed it and

01:00:44.219 --> 01:00:46.719
has written a peer -reviewed paper for Nature

01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:50.579
magazine about it. It turns out that in the Columbia

01:00:50.579 --> 01:00:52.539
River, they have these things called diatoms,

01:00:52.539 --> 01:00:53.960
which are these little microscopic organisms.

01:00:54.280 --> 01:00:58.260
And sometimes they, some species will bloom or

01:00:58.260 --> 01:01:00.739
live in the springtime. And then there's another

01:01:00.739 --> 01:01:02.639
species that lives in the wintertime in the Columbia

01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:05.820
River. Well, the money, when the money was found,

01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:08.079
it was waterlogged. It had been wet at some point.

01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:10.079
Okay. So it was waterlogged and it was buried.

01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:15.159
And all they found, all Tom found was the springtime.

01:01:15.690 --> 01:01:19.289
diatoms no no wintertime diatoms so the money

01:01:19.289 --> 01:01:23.170
did not enter the river in november of 71 okay

01:01:23.170 --> 01:01:24.769
because it would have the wintertime yeah stuff

01:01:24.769 --> 01:01:27.849
on it right so how'd the money get there okay

01:01:27.849 --> 01:01:29.530
if it didn't float there and again we've done

01:01:29.530 --> 01:01:31.530
experiments but you know knuckleheads like myself

01:01:31.530 --> 01:01:35.130
and others have gotten 300 bills 300 dollars

01:01:35.130 --> 01:01:38.610
not 320s but 300 bills and put them in a tub

01:01:38.989 --> 01:01:41.590
and rubber banded them the same way that they

01:01:41.590 --> 01:01:44.610
had them, they sink. So if you threw a bundle

01:01:44.610 --> 01:01:47.829
of $6 ,000 of 20s into a river, it will sink

01:01:47.829 --> 01:01:51.110
within three minutes to the bottom. It won't

01:01:51.110 --> 01:01:52.829
float down the river and end up on a sandbar.

01:01:53.010 --> 01:01:56.309
So it seems like as crazy as it sounds, I mean,

01:01:56.329 --> 01:01:58.789
I hate saying this because it sounds so stupid,

01:01:58.909 --> 01:02:01.530
but it seems like somebody put that there. I

01:02:01.530 --> 01:02:05.230
have no idea why, but it seems like a human put

01:02:05.230 --> 01:02:07.170
that there. And even if a human didn't put it

01:02:07.170 --> 01:02:09.460
there, It's evidence of Cooper's survival because

01:02:09.460 --> 01:02:13.719
Cooper jumps 10 miles west of there or east of

01:02:13.719 --> 01:02:15.559
there. And he jumps 10 miles north of the river.

01:02:15.699 --> 01:02:17.559
OK, so he's 10 miles north of the river, 10 miles

01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:20.039
east of the river. So for the money to get there

01:02:20.039 --> 01:02:23.579
without Cooper living and like leaving the area

01:02:23.579 --> 01:02:26.659
requires some crazy scenario where somebody finds

01:02:26.659 --> 01:02:29.179
his dead body. Right. And disposes of his body

01:02:29.179 --> 01:02:31.460
and keeps the money for themselves or some stupid

01:02:31.460 --> 01:02:33.739
thing like that. I have no idea. Whenever people

01:02:33.739 --> 01:02:37.300
ask me about. Tina Bar is the sandbar. I always

01:02:37.300 --> 01:02:40.280
just joke and say, no habla ingles. Because it's

01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:44.039
really hard to understand how this got there.

01:02:44.260 --> 01:02:48.480
And why is it only $6 ,000? And how did it get

01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:52.059
there? If it wasn't wet by in the wintertime

01:02:52.059 --> 01:02:55.199
and, you know, it's just it's crazy. And but

01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:57.099
it really I avoid it because it doesn't tell

01:02:57.099 --> 01:02:59.059
us anything. All we know is it's Cooper's money.

01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:01.800
But yeah, yeah, it doesn't tell you a whole lot.

01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:04.000
And I saw some interesting things online, like,

01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:05.920
you know, why? Why would it be there? What's

01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:08.699
going on? And people say maybe like, you know,

01:03:08.699 --> 01:03:10.760
he paid somebody to pick him up after his jump.

01:03:10.860 --> 01:03:13.699
Right. And they took it. Yeah. And then they

01:03:13.699 --> 01:03:15.519
bear and then the person buried it because they

01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:17.260
didn't want to get caught with hot cash. Right.

01:03:17.360 --> 01:03:18.519
They're going to go back and collect it later.

01:03:19.529 --> 01:03:21.750
And maybe later never happened. They maybe got

01:03:21.750 --> 01:03:23.630
cancer or got hit by a truck. Who knows? Like,

01:03:23.630 --> 01:03:25.389
whatever. Or were drunk and forgot where they

01:03:25.389 --> 01:03:27.909
placed it. Yeah, lots of different things. I

01:03:27.909 --> 01:03:29.289
mean, lots of different things. And it kind of

01:03:29.289 --> 01:03:31.510
falls into kind of, what is it, Mike? It's like

01:03:31.510 --> 01:03:33.230
Occam's razor, right? Like the simplest solution

01:03:33.230 --> 01:03:36.010
is often most true or something like that. Where,

01:03:36.070 --> 01:03:39.550
you know, how else could it get there? Is it

01:03:39.550 --> 01:03:43.110
an unladen European swallow or an unladen, you

01:03:43.110 --> 01:03:46.849
know, African swallow? Nobody knows. Like, easiest

01:03:46.849 --> 01:03:48.869
explanation is somebody buried it there. Like

01:03:48.869 --> 01:03:51.769
you say. Yeah, it seems that way. Is that data

01:03:51.769 --> 01:03:55.289
important? Does it give us insight? No. Not really,

01:03:55.329 --> 01:03:57.989
unless there were DNA samples on it, right? Yeah,

01:03:58.590 --> 01:04:01.119
it's not going to tell us who he was. But it

01:04:01.119 --> 01:04:03.099
does, though, I do think it indicates that he

01:04:03.099 --> 01:04:05.840
survived. And like I said, this is probably the

01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:08.639
biggest misconception of the Cooper case is that

01:04:08.639 --> 01:04:10.639
he jumps into a wilderness. I mean, that's what

01:04:10.639 --> 01:04:12.519
the media loves to say, two things, that he jumped

01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:15.039
into a wilderness and that he jumped in a freezing

01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:17.940
rainstorm. OK, well, again, we have the files

01:04:17.940 --> 01:04:20.619
now. We can look and see that the FBI contacted

01:04:20.619 --> 01:04:22.579
the National Weather Service and said, hey, tell

01:04:22.579 --> 01:04:25.260
us all that. details of the weather that you

01:04:25.260 --> 01:04:26.619
know at the time of the jump in the location

01:04:26.619 --> 01:04:30.159
well where cooper jumped out it was 44 degrees

01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:34.300
okay and it was quote light rain showers which

01:04:34.300 --> 01:04:36.340
is just the pacific northwest it's always drizzling

01:04:36.340 --> 01:04:38.639
you know yeah so it wasn't it was not a rainstorm

01:04:38.639 --> 01:04:41.159
it wasn't gonna freeze to death okay and where

01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:44.119
he jumps okay he jumped into a count into a county

01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:49.099
with a 1971 population of 130 000 people OK,

01:04:49.159 --> 01:04:51.840
he's jumping 10 miles away from Portland, Oregon,

01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:53.760
which even at the time had 500 ,000 people of

01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:56.119
it. And currently the county where he jumped

01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:58.559
into has half a million people living there.

01:04:58.659 --> 01:05:02.460
OK, so it's totally grown up. If Cooper dies

01:05:02.460 --> 01:05:05.539
or something, you know, for one thing, I mean,

01:05:05.539 --> 01:05:07.119
there's going to be vultures. And we have the

01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:08.920
FBI files. They're looking for buzzards circling.

01:05:08.920 --> 01:05:10.059
I mean, they've done all kinds of stuff, you

01:05:10.059 --> 01:05:12.480
know. Yeah, you're going to find remains if he

01:05:12.480 --> 01:05:15.000
dies. Well, the remains is interesting because

01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:17.809
so. The same month that Cooper went, the same

01:05:17.809 --> 01:05:19.489
month of the hijacking, earlier that month, in

01:05:19.489 --> 01:05:22.190
that same county, a 16 -year -old boy went missing.

01:05:22.269 --> 01:05:25.829
He was hunting. And they didn't find him. Well,

01:05:25.969 --> 01:05:28.269
about a year later, they found, and they thought

01:05:28.269 --> 01:05:30.710
it might have been Cooper. They found a femur.

01:05:30.710 --> 01:05:34.329
They found a femur and his rifle. Never found

01:05:34.329 --> 01:05:36.590
anything else. And that's only one year later.

01:05:36.650 --> 01:05:39.489
So if Cooper dies, his remains are going to be

01:05:39.489 --> 01:05:42.329
gone. I always tell people, like, go walking

01:05:42.329 --> 01:05:44.170
in the woods. How many dead animals do you see?

01:05:44.349 --> 01:05:46.369
None. essentially, right? Because they're all

01:05:46.369 --> 01:05:49.989
eaten. But again, that parachute behind me, I

01:05:49.989 --> 01:05:52.110
mean, that thing's not going anywhere if it's

01:05:52.110 --> 01:05:53.929
on somebody's back, right? And the money bag,

01:05:54.030 --> 01:05:56.829
again, you have money with $200 ,000 in it. Where's

01:05:56.829 --> 01:05:59.050
that? How come no one's ever found that, right?

01:05:59.230 --> 01:06:02.170
And again, we talk about Cooper jumping into

01:06:02.170 --> 01:06:04.829
a wilderness. No, it's not a wilderness. He's

01:06:04.829 --> 01:06:07.349
jumping 10 miles from Portland, Oregon. Cooper

01:06:07.349 --> 01:06:09.969
was literally as likely to land on somebody's

01:06:09.969 --> 01:06:13.090
roof as he was to get stuck on a tree somewhere.

01:06:13.599 --> 01:06:16.179
That's a fact. Yeah. He jumped into somebody's

01:06:16.179 --> 01:06:20.550
like above ground pool. They gave him Mai Tais

01:06:20.550 --> 01:06:22.309
and he never left. He's still there drinking.

01:06:22.469 --> 01:06:24.530
It could have happened. Yeah. I mean, who knows?

01:06:24.650 --> 01:06:26.889
But the point, yeah, that's probably the biggest

01:06:26.889 --> 01:06:29.449
misconception is that he jumps into this unsurvivable.

01:06:29.789 --> 01:06:32.389
Like, you'll still see people. I mean, I released

01:06:32.389 --> 01:06:36.909
a video reaction today where there was a guy

01:06:36.909 --> 01:06:38.869
named Dr. Todd Grande who has like a million

01:06:38.869 --> 01:06:40.969
subs on YouTube. He's a psychologist. He did

01:06:40.969 --> 01:06:43.269
a thing on Cooper. And I did a reaction video,

01:06:43.329 --> 01:06:45.380
you know. Sure. Shameless reaction video to get

01:06:45.380 --> 01:06:47.639
clicks, I guess. But I did a reaction video to

01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:49.980
it. And he was saying how, you know, Cooper,

01:06:50.139 --> 01:06:52.280
you know, if he landed safely, he may have, you

01:06:52.280 --> 01:06:54.199
know, got lost in the woods and died. I'm like,

01:06:54.260 --> 01:06:57.739
come on. Like, no way. I mean, he's not. Again,

01:06:57.860 --> 01:07:00.739
all he had to do is walk west and he's going

01:07:00.739 --> 01:07:03.019
to run into I -5 interstate. I mean, he's not

01:07:03.019 --> 01:07:05.940
within five miles away. I mean, he's not he's

01:07:05.940 --> 01:07:07.960
not jumping into some. He's not jumping into

01:07:07.960 --> 01:07:10.900
the Yukon, okay? Yeah, and he knew from the plane

01:07:10.900 --> 01:07:14.699
that they were coming over like an airbase and

01:07:14.699 --> 01:07:17.059
stuff. So he was familiar enough with the topography

01:07:17.059 --> 01:07:19.840
that— Well, sure. That corridor, Portland to

01:07:19.840 --> 01:07:23.019
Seattle, is a straight shot corridor up I -5,

01:07:23.179 --> 01:07:26.519
okay? Yeah. Tacoma is there. There's the Air

01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:29.900
Force Base, McChord, which he mentioned. To the

01:07:29.900 --> 01:07:31.500
steward. That's kind of one of the things that

01:07:31.500 --> 01:07:33.880
Cooper gives us. The only real clues Cooper gives

01:07:33.880 --> 01:07:37.719
us is he does say he's at one point he's looking

01:07:37.719 --> 01:07:40.000
out the window and he tells the girl that looks

01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:42.639
that looks like Tacoma down there. OK, so he

01:07:42.639 --> 01:07:44.699
knew what Tacoma looked like from the air. OK,

01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:46.860
that's a clue. At a certain point when he thinks

01:07:46.860 --> 01:07:48.539
that the parachutes are coming from McCord Air

01:07:48.539 --> 01:07:50.860
Force Base, he's bitching because the parachutes

01:07:50.860 --> 01:07:52.579
haven't arrived. And he goes, hell, McCord's

01:07:52.579 --> 01:07:55.000
only 20 miles away from here. You know, shouldn't

01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:57.800
take this long. So he knew geography of that

01:07:57.800 --> 01:08:00.360
area. But I don't think he's I don't think he

01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:02.519
was living in the area at the time, because think

01:08:02.519 --> 01:08:04.380
about how many times you go to the airport and

01:08:04.380 --> 01:08:06.460
you see somebody that, you know, maybe not even

01:08:06.460 --> 01:08:07.820
a friend, but just an acquaintance or somebody

01:08:07.820 --> 01:08:10.099
who knows who you are. Yeah, we can look at the

01:08:10.099 --> 01:08:12.760
copycat hijackers and a lot of them hijacked

01:08:12.760 --> 01:08:14.440
500 miles from where. they're from because you

01:08:14.440 --> 01:08:15.559
don't want to run into somebody at the airport

01:08:15.559 --> 01:08:18.500
who saw you that day. Sure, yeah. I don't think

01:08:18.500 --> 01:08:20.659
he was living in the area at the time, but he

01:08:20.659 --> 01:08:23.039
had some familiarity with it. Yeah. But what's

01:08:23.039 --> 01:08:25.319
interesting, one last thing. Oh, not last thing.

01:08:25.340 --> 01:08:28.020
I'll keep talking all night. But one thing that's

01:08:28.020 --> 01:08:30.119
interesting about Cooper is that he was a copycat

01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:33.899
himself, I think, because 11 days earlier, a

01:08:33.899 --> 01:08:36.399
Canadian named Paul Sini, he's the one who came

01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:38.979
up with the idea. Paul Sini hijacked an Air Canada

01:08:38.979 --> 01:08:43.640
flight with a parachute. and requested a million

01:08:43.640 --> 01:08:47.220
dollars. And he ended up getting $50 ,000. And

01:08:47.220 --> 01:08:49.340
before he could jump out, a male flight attendant

01:08:49.340 --> 01:08:52.260
bashed him in the head with an ax and ended it

01:08:52.260 --> 01:08:55.140
very quickly. But Paul Sini, though, was a big

01:08:55.140 --> 01:08:56.920
headline news all over America. This guy tried

01:08:56.920 --> 01:09:00.260
this ransom jump out with the money thing. And

01:09:00.260 --> 01:09:03.460
it's almost like, I think about the, what's the...

01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:07.340
Once upon a time in Hollywood, the DiCaprio gif

01:09:07.340 --> 01:09:08.800
where he's pointing at the TV like, I can do

01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:11.539
that. Me, it's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cooper has

01:09:11.539 --> 01:09:14.760
this like, oh my God, hold my beer moment, right?

01:09:14.899 --> 01:09:17.520
I can do that. Yeah, yeah. So the FBI totally

01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:19.159
believed this. And I believe it too, that Cooper

01:09:19.159 --> 01:09:21.960
was a copycat. Because I mean, what are the odds

01:09:21.960 --> 01:09:24.319
that two guys at the same time are devising the

01:09:24.319 --> 01:09:28.300
exact same neurodivergent scheme? Because I mean,

01:09:28.300 --> 01:09:31.739
this does require some, I mean, doing this is

01:09:31.739 --> 01:09:33.689
like, oh my God, that's brilliant, right? I can

01:09:33.689 --> 01:09:37.489
jump away from my crime scene as my crime scene

01:09:37.489 --> 01:09:39.609
continues flying, you know, 300 miles an hour

01:09:39.609 --> 01:09:42.029
away from me. That's genius, really. Yeah. And

01:09:42.029 --> 01:09:44.789
at the time, you didn't have, you know, a cell

01:09:44.789 --> 01:09:46.890
phone in your pocket necessarily triangulating

01:09:46.890 --> 01:09:48.930
your location. So I know there's been a little

01:09:48.930 --> 01:09:51.810
bit of, you know, the radius of the search radius

01:09:51.810 --> 01:09:56.149
is big because they don't exactly know 100 %

01:09:56.149 --> 01:10:00.489
where. Right. I think like he jumped. There's

01:10:00.489 --> 01:10:02.890
a pretty good idea. But I think at the time,

01:10:02.909 --> 01:10:05.170
you know, in 71 or whatever, it might not have

01:10:05.170 --> 01:10:08.050
been as good idea as perhaps people have had

01:10:08.050 --> 01:10:10.029
time to look at it and analyze it. Seems like

01:10:10.029 --> 01:10:12.250
we've gotten a better idea lately since. Yeah,

01:10:12.310 --> 01:10:15.510
we've got a little better on it. The FBI, I believe,

01:10:15.649 --> 01:10:17.329
were searching a little. They were searching

01:10:17.329 --> 01:10:19.529
a little farther north than they probably should

01:10:19.529 --> 01:10:21.550
have been. You know, who knows? But regardless,

01:10:21.970 --> 01:10:24.390
nothing was found by anybody. It was a big, I

01:10:24.390 --> 01:10:26.229
mean, Clark County, Washington, which is where

01:10:26.229 --> 01:10:28.250
Vancouver, Washington is, which is, you know,

01:10:28.250 --> 01:10:30.489
just north of Portland. That's Cooper country.

01:10:30.630 --> 01:10:33.050
Okay. They grew up, they grow up even today.

01:10:33.109 --> 01:10:34.670
I mean, there's, you know, Cooper restaurants.

01:10:34.789 --> 01:10:36.770
There's a Cooper themed escape room there. You

01:10:36.770 --> 01:10:38.470
know, the Cooper Con is held there. There's,

01:10:38.470 --> 01:10:40.970
I mean, anytime a parachute or anything is found,

01:10:41.069 --> 01:10:42.989
it's in the FBI files. Like somebody's like,

01:10:43.010 --> 01:10:45.930
oh, I found something, you know, and it's a strap

01:10:45.930 --> 01:10:48.310
from a firework parachute or something, you know.

01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:51.680
Things like this. So if something had been found,

01:10:51.920 --> 01:10:54.619
I mean, we would know about it, I think. And

01:10:54.619 --> 01:10:57.920
so my best guess for what Cooper did is I think

01:10:57.920 --> 01:11:00.100
that he landed on the ground. Now, Cooper did

01:11:00.100 --> 01:11:01.600
not know where he was going to be jumping. I

01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:04.260
mean, he didn't know precisely where he he may

01:11:04.260 --> 01:11:06.319
have had a idea. I think the best thing Cooper

01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:08.300
could have known is what county he was in because

01:11:08.300 --> 01:11:10.079
he really didn't know. He didn't specify a speed

01:11:10.079 --> 01:11:12.479
to fly at. He didn't specify a flight path for

01:11:12.479 --> 01:11:14.779
them to follow. But I think he just assumed they

01:11:14.779 --> 01:11:16.800
were going to have to fly. over Portland to get

01:11:16.800 --> 01:11:18.779
to Reno, which kind of you do. And so I think

01:11:18.779 --> 01:11:20.279
he knew they were going to be flying south. Kind

01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:22.079
of jumps blindly. Now, he could have seen some

01:11:22.079 --> 01:11:24.039
light. He certainly saw some lights beneath him

01:11:24.039 --> 01:11:25.600
and could probably see Portland coming up ahead

01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:28.760
of him if he could look around. So he knows roughly

01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:30.720
where he's jumping, but he lands. What you do

01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:33.380
is you stash the parachute somewhere. You stash

01:11:33.380 --> 01:11:35.399
the money. Remember where you are. Remember where

01:11:35.399 --> 01:11:39.430
you are. And you go. And you walk and you get

01:11:39.430 --> 01:11:41.170
back to your transportation somehow. I mean,

01:11:41.210 --> 01:11:44.010
Cooper may have driven a car there that morning

01:11:44.010 --> 01:11:46.010
and parked in Vancouver, Washington and taken

01:11:46.010 --> 01:11:48.189
a cab to the airport, something like that. So

01:11:48.189 --> 01:11:50.649
Cooper gets to his transportation, goes back

01:11:50.649 --> 01:11:53.510
and picks up his stuff. Or if he has an accomplice,

01:11:53.550 --> 01:11:56.130
what you do is you say, you tell your accomplice,

01:11:56.130 --> 01:11:57.689
hey, look, I don't know when or where I'm going

01:11:57.689 --> 01:12:00.170
to land, but sit by the damn phone. And whenever

01:12:00.170 --> 01:12:01.890
I get to a phone, I'll let you know where I am

01:12:01.890 --> 01:12:03.949
and you can get me, you know. So it's not that

01:12:03.949 --> 01:12:05.970
complicated, really, for Cooper to escape. I

01:12:05.970 --> 01:12:07.869
think that people think it's more. Sure. Cooper

01:12:07.869 --> 01:12:10.170
gets bonus points. Remember I told you that the

01:12:10.170 --> 01:12:12.430
pilots felt this pressure bump thing. Well, they

01:12:12.430 --> 01:12:14.949
didn't know that this was Cooper's jump time

01:12:14.949 --> 01:12:18.649
until the FBI and the Air Force did experiments.

01:12:19.210 --> 01:12:21.630
With the same plane where they put a 200 pound

01:12:21.630 --> 01:12:24.149
sled on the back of the stairs and like push

01:12:24.149 --> 01:12:26.470
it off of the pole or whatever to see the reaction.

01:12:26.649 --> 01:12:28.710
And they actually had the flight engineer from

01:12:28.710 --> 01:12:30.930
the Cooper plane on that flight saying, yeah,

01:12:30.949 --> 01:12:32.489
that's the sensation we felt. So that's how they

01:12:32.489 --> 01:12:34.350
could prove it. And so on all these subsequent

01:12:34.350 --> 01:12:37.130
hijackings, all these subsequent copycats, the

01:12:37.130 --> 01:12:40.149
FBI told those pilots, hey, look, when he jumps,

01:12:40.210 --> 01:12:42.170
you're going to feel something. So let us know

01:12:42.170 --> 01:12:43.970
exactly when that happens and we can, you know,

01:12:43.970 --> 01:12:46.050
cordon off the area below him or whatever, you

01:12:46.050 --> 01:12:48.119
know. And so. That's kind of how they caught

01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:51.119
these guys. And so Cooper got a wave with it,

01:12:51.159 --> 01:12:53.079
not because he was some super genius, but because

01:12:53.079 --> 01:12:55.000
he was the first to do it. Sure. He caught them

01:12:55.000 --> 01:12:57.979
by surprise. It's very strange. You talk to the

01:12:57.979 --> 01:12:59.779
FBI guys. I've talked to a couple of them who

01:12:59.779 --> 01:13:01.439
were there back then, and they didn't think he

01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:03.380
was going to jump. And it sounds stupid. Like,

01:13:03.399 --> 01:13:05.020
well, why the hell would he ask for parachutes?

01:13:05.060 --> 01:13:06.220
They're like, well, we just didn't think he was

01:13:06.220 --> 01:13:08.020
going to jump because they didn't know. Part

01:13:08.020 --> 01:13:10.520
of them thought maybe he was going to make the

01:13:10.520 --> 01:13:12.659
crew jump out and fly the plane himself somewhere.

01:13:12.779 --> 01:13:15.680
So who knows? Yeah. But Cooper was smart, though,

01:13:15.699 --> 01:13:18.590
asking for. four parachutes, that made the FBI,

01:13:18.949 --> 01:13:20.949
not the FBI, but it made Northwest Airlines really,

01:13:21.029 --> 01:13:22.409
because remember the FBI wasn't involved at this

01:13:22.409 --> 01:13:24.050
point, but it made Northwest Airlines assume

01:13:24.050 --> 01:13:26.670
that Cooper is going to make a hostage jump with

01:13:26.670 --> 01:13:28.789
him. And why do you want two sets of parachutes?

01:13:28.829 --> 01:13:30.649
So that way they're going to give him functioning

01:13:30.649 --> 01:13:33.289
parachutes, you know, they're not going to sabotage,

01:13:33.390 --> 01:13:35.840
which is smart. For sure. And also having a bomb

01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:39.000
was a very smart way to do it because that really

01:13:39.000 --> 01:13:41.680
thwarts any sort of attempt to rush the aircraft

01:13:41.680 --> 01:13:45.140
and get in a gunfight, which the FBI did do gunfights

01:13:45.140 --> 01:13:46.960
with somebody. I mean, several of these copycats

01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:49.520
were killed during their attempts in gun battles

01:13:49.520 --> 01:13:51.460
with the FBI who stormed the plane. But you don't

01:13:51.460 --> 01:13:52.960
storm a plane when there's a bomb because the

01:13:52.960 --> 01:13:54.260
whole plane will blow up, you know, kill everybody.

01:13:54.439 --> 01:13:56.819
So Cooper was smart, but also stupid sometimes,

01:13:57.199 --> 01:14:01.119
you know. But we like Cooper. And we like the

01:14:01.119 --> 01:14:03.600
story. But sadly, I don't think it's going to

01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:05.760
ever be solved. But you never know. Especially,

01:14:05.859 --> 01:14:07.979
you know, Cooper's long dead by now. This guy

01:14:07.979 --> 01:14:10.220
was middle -aged, heavy smoker. He was certainly

01:14:10.220 --> 01:14:13.199
dead, surely. And the hope was that maybe he

01:14:13.199 --> 01:14:16.500
had a spouse. Or, you know, somebody who... Was

01:14:16.500 --> 01:14:18.880
waiting till they died to say, hey, you know,

01:14:18.880 --> 01:14:21.260
dad was Cooper. And we get that, though. That's

01:14:21.260 --> 01:14:22.859
the thing is we do get that. Yeah. And then we

01:14:22.859 --> 01:14:24.159
investigate him like that guy's full of shit

01:14:24.159 --> 01:14:26.800
or. Yeah. Why would you lie to your family on

01:14:26.800 --> 01:14:29.060
your deathbed? But like people did that. And

01:14:29.060 --> 01:14:32.079
it's a it's very common in conspiracy theories

01:14:32.079 --> 01:14:34.899
for people to have false confessions. That's

01:14:34.899 --> 01:14:37.399
true. Mussolini has 12 people that confess to

01:14:37.399 --> 01:14:39.859
killing him, even though they weren't even there.

01:14:39.899 --> 01:14:41.760
Some of them like you're not even in the area.

01:14:42.460 --> 01:14:44.600
You know, you get to say whatever you want, but

01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:48.800
there's no documentation. Right. Yeah. And also

01:14:48.800 --> 01:14:51.140
another thing, too, is Cooper is a very safe

01:14:51.140 --> 01:14:53.279
thing to confess to because you're not confessing

01:14:53.279 --> 01:14:55.619
to being the Zodiac killer. Right. You're confessing

01:14:55.619 --> 01:14:58.220
to pulling off the coolest crime ever, essentially.

01:14:58.359 --> 01:15:00.399
You know, I mean, what a cool crime. You jump

01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:02.600
out of a plane with $20 ,000 after having a sexy

01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:04.680
stewardess light your cigarettes for you. It's

01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:06.760
very James Bond -ish, you know? Yeah. It's like

01:15:06.760 --> 01:15:08.840
an intro to a James Bond movie. Yeah, it is.

01:15:08.840 --> 01:15:11.500
And then the title credits come up. Yeah, you're

01:15:11.500 --> 01:15:13.340
not confessing to being the Zodiac Killer. You're

01:15:13.340 --> 01:15:15.460
confessing to being this cool Han Solo in a business

01:15:15.460 --> 01:15:18.340
suit guy, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm about

01:15:18.340 --> 01:15:20.840
done with my cigar, but I do have, I've got one

01:15:20.840 --> 01:15:22.960
more question specifically about the Cooper case.

01:15:23.159 --> 01:15:25.699
And that is, and in the Rackstraw book, they

01:15:25.699 --> 01:15:28.699
bring this up quite a bit, is there were, I think,

01:15:28.699 --> 01:15:33.460
four notes to the FBI post hijacking. Yeah, right.

01:15:33.520 --> 01:15:34.899
And there was like, you know, they were like,

01:15:34.979 --> 01:15:37.420
oh, two of these were within where Rackstraw

01:15:37.420 --> 01:15:40.100
lived or postmarked from where within he lived.

01:15:40.430 --> 01:15:42.810
So it has to be Rackstraw and stuff like that.

01:15:42.909 --> 01:15:45.109
I don't know about the validity of some of these

01:15:45.109 --> 01:15:46.930
notes. And if they were, I mean, you've got all

01:15:46.930 --> 01:15:48.869
the files I saw you posted. I don't know if it

01:15:48.869 --> 01:15:51.310
was like this morning that you got a new request

01:15:51.310 --> 01:15:54.210
in from the FBI and a scan of this and that.

01:15:54.390 --> 01:15:56.489
So I don't know if you know more about these

01:15:56.489 --> 01:15:59.390
notes after the fact. Yeah, the letters. The

01:15:59.390 --> 01:16:01.770
letters, yeah. Okay, so lots of letters, actually.

01:16:01.890 --> 01:16:04.609
It's more than four. There's several FBI files.

01:16:04.689 --> 01:16:06.130
So people would write hoax letters. You know,

01:16:06.210 --> 01:16:09.289
I'm Cooper. I'm on a beach somewhere. F you,

01:16:09.390 --> 01:16:11.359
you know. FBI. Yeah, yeah. So we do get a lot

01:16:11.359 --> 01:16:13.239
of these. And there is one, though. The one that

01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:15.680
they hone in on, on the Rackstraw, is the most

01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:17.560
complicated one. It's got all these numbers and

01:16:17.560 --> 01:16:20.779
weird things in it. And look, I don't put it

01:16:20.779 --> 01:16:23.800
past Rackstraw to have done that. It doesn't

01:16:23.800 --> 01:16:25.100
make him Cooper, I guess, is what I'm saying.

01:16:25.500 --> 01:16:27.560
Sure. The problem with these letters, though,

01:16:27.600 --> 01:16:30.140
is that it's almost like a trope, where I think

01:16:30.140 --> 01:16:32.659
that what happened is, because of the Zodiac

01:16:32.659 --> 01:16:35.760
killer taunting the fifth eds, and you have Jack

01:16:35.760 --> 01:16:38.420
the Ripper's from hell letter, right? I mean,

01:16:38.439 --> 01:16:40.880
people... this image that people actually send

01:16:40.880 --> 01:16:42.699
taunting letters to the authorities. But Cooper,

01:16:42.819 --> 01:16:44.640
remember, I didn't mention it earlier, but Cooper

01:16:44.640 --> 01:16:47.100
was so studious about not leaving anything behind

01:16:47.100 --> 01:16:49.979
that one of his matchbooks, he had these matchbooks

01:16:49.979 --> 01:16:51.779
with him. And remember, the stewardess is lighting

01:16:51.779 --> 01:16:54.680
his cigarettes because he's using matches. She

01:16:54.680 --> 01:16:57.819
uses the last match of this matchbook and she

01:16:57.819 --> 01:17:00.159
tosses it in the seat pocket in front of her

01:17:00.159 --> 01:17:02.020
like trash, right? He goes, no, no, no, give

01:17:02.020 --> 01:17:04.420
that back to me. So like he took an empty matchbook

01:17:04.420 --> 01:17:06.600
with him. He was very, and all the notes, all

01:17:06.600 --> 01:17:08.659
the notes that like his notes that he brought

01:17:08.659 --> 01:17:10.539
aboard. Yeah, he kept all of those. Yeah, he

01:17:10.539 --> 01:17:13.699
asked for them back. And the tie really, I think

01:17:13.699 --> 01:17:15.300
people say, well, if he was so studious, why

01:17:15.300 --> 01:17:17.439
would he leave his tie? I really think that that

01:17:17.439 --> 01:17:19.760
was just a brain fart. Because if you think about

01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:21.439
all of us are men, think about when you take

01:17:21.439 --> 01:17:23.579
a tie off, you throw it on the first thing you

01:17:23.579 --> 01:17:27.100
see. Just almost a reflex. And I think that Cooper

01:17:27.100 --> 01:17:29.260
did that. I think that it was dark by that point.

01:17:29.359 --> 01:17:33.500
And the tie is black. When he sent the girl Tina

01:17:33.500 --> 01:17:35.060
to the front, he said, turn all the lights off.

01:17:35.159 --> 01:17:37.560
Okay, so it's dark back there. He's about to,

01:17:37.579 --> 01:17:40.680
yes, yes. $200 ,000 tied to his body with parachute

01:17:40.680 --> 01:17:43.319
cord. He's about to jump out of a jet airliner.

01:17:43.460 --> 01:17:46.260
You know, this is the pivotal moment of his whole

01:17:46.260 --> 01:17:49.399
life, right? And he just brain farted and left

01:17:49.399 --> 01:17:51.800
his tie on accident, I think. I mean, I think

01:17:51.800 --> 01:17:53.939
he wanted to bring it with him. Or if he was,

01:17:54.039 --> 01:17:55.579
you know, I guess I don't remember where they

01:17:55.579 --> 01:17:58.020
found it, but it's also possible he was on the

01:17:58.020 --> 01:18:00.119
steps ready to jump and he took it and threw

01:18:00.119 --> 01:18:01.699
it off and the wind blew it back in the plane

01:18:01.699 --> 01:18:03.460
or something. Like, you know, who knows? Well,

01:18:03.479 --> 01:18:05.539
they found it on his seat. So literally on his

01:18:05.539 --> 01:18:08.140
seat. Okay, sure. Yeah. I mean, there's like

01:18:08.140 --> 01:18:10.140
a thousand reasons why you would just, the tie

01:18:10.140 --> 01:18:11.220
would just, you know. Yeah, just brain fart.

01:18:11.340 --> 01:18:14.180
And what's interesting about the tie is that.

01:18:14.439 --> 01:18:17.720
That was their trump card. So the FBI, they kept

01:18:17.720 --> 01:18:19.699
that a secret. OK, the only thing that they kept

01:18:19.699 --> 01:18:22.199
a secret really was the existence of a tie. And

01:18:22.199 --> 01:18:24.460
they did that because if there were lots of false

01:18:24.460 --> 01:18:26.180
confessors, I have a video on one of my YouTube

01:18:26.180 --> 01:18:27.619
videos. I have a little I have a little like

01:18:27.619 --> 01:18:29.659
10 minute video about the eight questions that

01:18:29.659 --> 01:18:31.819
the FBI. There was a list. It's in the files

01:18:31.819 --> 01:18:34.079
of here are the questions you ask anyone who

01:18:34.079 --> 01:18:36.359
confesses to being Cooper. Any crazy person walks

01:18:36.359 --> 01:18:38.039
in and these are the questions you ask them,

01:18:38.140 --> 01:18:40.720
you know. And but the tie, though, they would

01:18:40.720 --> 01:18:43.140
say, what did you leave on the plane? Because

01:18:43.140 --> 01:18:46.899
they know. The existence of the tie was not known

01:18:46.899 --> 01:18:50.819
until the late 80s. So the FBI kept this on the

01:18:50.819 --> 01:18:53.199
back burner. And in hindsight, that may have

01:18:53.199 --> 01:18:55.319
been a mistake because the tie did have a distinct

01:18:55.319 --> 01:18:58.619
tie clip on it. Now, it wasn't a one in a million

01:18:58.619 --> 01:19:00.979
tie clip. It was sold in department stores. But

01:19:00.979 --> 01:19:03.420
if they had published that and said, look, we

01:19:03.420 --> 01:19:06.310
recovered this tie from the plane. In addition

01:19:06.310 --> 01:19:08.050
to the sketch, do you know somebody who looks

01:19:08.050 --> 01:19:09.890
like the sketch and would own a tie like this?

01:19:10.029 --> 01:19:13.130
And they didn't do that. And this tie, as we

01:19:13.130 --> 01:19:16.149
discuss, kind of the big thing now is they have

01:19:16.149 --> 01:19:19.890
microscopic, they've done very high electron

01:19:19.890 --> 01:19:22.909
microscope scans of this tie. And it is covered

01:19:22.909 --> 01:19:27.279
in... like metallurgical chemicals. And we can

01:19:27.279 --> 01:19:29.539
see, actually, when you look at the... It's amazing.

01:19:29.720 --> 01:19:32.520
When you look at the scans and the UV light,

01:19:32.680 --> 01:19:34.560
you can actually see his fingers. You can see

01:19:34.560 --> 01:19:37.619
Cooper, whoever he was, where he held his tie,

01:19:37.779 --> 01:19:39.699
where he would hold his tie to put it on or take

01:19:39.699 --> 01:19:41.840
it off. And there are more particles of these

01:19:41.840 --> 01:19:45.439
metal fragments and chemicals on the part where

01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:47.479
he touched the most, right? Whatever he was doing,

01:19:47.640 --> 01:19:51.039
his job, most certainly, whoever he was, it's

01:19:51.039 --> 01:19:53.340
probably our biggest lead, really, was handling

01:19:53.340 --> 01:19:56.380
chemicals. Okay, because it's all over. Ty is

01:19:56.380 --> 01:19:58.720
filthy. Like no other Ty is ever this filthy.

01:19:58.859 --> 01:20:01.420
So he was a metallurgist or something of some

01:20:01.420 --> 01:20:03.460
sort, perhaps. Or I mean, again, people say,

01:20:03.520 --> 01:20:05.079
well, the Ty could have been from goodwill or

01:20:05.079 --> 01:20:06.920
it could have been something he stole. It could

01:20:06.920 --> 01:20:09.279
have been his brothers. All fair, all true. But

01:20:09.279 --> 01:20:11.340
we don't have shit to go off of. So we may as

01:20:11.340 --> 01:20:13.960
well. That is a valid piece of evidence to follow.

01:20:14.380 --> 01:20:17.420
Right. Yeah. So as valid as anything else, honestly.

01:20:17.699 --> 01:20:20.479
Yeah. And so the tie can point us in some directions

01:20:20.479 --> 01:20:22.859
to say, hey, let's look at. I know that a buddy

01:20:22.859 --> 01:20:25.279
of mine has done some really he's fed all the

01:20:25.279 --> 01:20:27.399
information into chat GPT or some kind of AI

01:20:27.399 --> 01:20:31.579
service. And they're there. The AI, I think it's

01:20:31.579 --> 01:20:35.479
Gronk or Gronk or whatever the the. Elon's AIS.

01:20:35.640 --> 01:20:38.000
And I think they determined that this guy may

01:20:38.000 --> 01:20:40.840
have been an airline crash investigator because

01:20:40.840 --> 01:20:43.300
of the particular fragments that he would have

01:20:43.300 --> 01:20:44.899
been sorting through. Like if you're an airline

01:20:44.899 --> 01:20:46.699
crash investigator, you're picking up things,

01:20:46.819 --> 01:20:48.880
right? And you're going to wear a tie too because

01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:50.640
you're a professional, right? I mean, men back

01:20:50.640 --> 01:20:53.539
then, that denoted you from being blue collar.

01:20:53.699 --> 01:20:55.739
If you're wearing a tie, you're the manager,

01:20:55.819 --> 01:20:57.060
you're middle management or whatever, you know,

01:20:57.079 --> 01:21:00.100
that sort of thing in that era. And also a clip

01:21:00.100 --> 01:21:02.779
-on tie too means you're going to be around machinery

01:21:02.779 --> 01:21:05.579
and things. you don't want your tie to get snagged

01:21:05.579 --> 01:21:07.640
on something and choke you to death. So that's

01:21:07.640 --> 01:21:09.939
why metallurgists and people who operated machines

01:21:09.939 --> 01:21:12.359
who wore ties would wear clip -on ties, because

01:21:12.359 --> 01:21:13.979
they didn't want to get caught in a machine and

01:21:13.979 --> 01:21:15.840
choke them, you know? So it was a clip -on to

01:21:15.840 --> 01:21:18.359
pop off. So Cooper, probably an engineer of some

01:21:18.359 --> 01:21:20.699
sort, maybe an airline crash investigator, or

01:21:20.699 --> 01:21:22.539
maybe his brother was, and he was just taking

01:21:22.539 --> 01:21:24.460
it, you know? But we'll never know, probably,

01:21:24.579 --> 01:21:27.439
sadly. Well, maybe not. Yeah, I mean, the time

01:21:27.439 --> 01:21:29.460
is running out. But it's the journey, as we say.

01:21:29.539 --> 01:21:31.199
It's the journey and the fringe you make along

01:21:31.199 --> 01:21:34.250
the way. Yes. Yes, the real treasure was the

01:21:34.250 --> 01:21:36.699
friends you made along the way. And the connections

01:21:36.699 --> 01:21:39.340
you made. And it's a fascinating piece of piece

01:21:39.340 --> 01:21:43.000
of history. And I don't know, it kind of, you

01:21:43.000 --> 01:21:45.859
know, it sucked me in a bit. And hence why I

01:21:45.859 --> 01:21:48.000
reach out to you. And I know I'm done with my

01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:50.520
cigar, Mike. Are you done with yours? I am. OK,

01:21:50.619 --> 01:21:53.100
so let's do final cigar thoughts and then we

01:21:53.100 --> 01:21:55.619
will wrap up the episode here with Ryan. What

01:21:55.619 --> 01:21:57.659
did you think, Mike? I thought it was a decent

01:21:57.659 --> 01:22:00.939
medium bodied cigar. I would put it at probably

01:22:00.939 --> 01:22:03.119
probably three and a half, something like that.

01:22:03.159 --> 01:22:06.159
It's not crazy. But it was decent. Yeah, that

01:22:06.159 --> 01:22:08.020
sounds good to me. Three and a half, it was pretty

01:22:08.020 --> 01:22:10.659
good. It's not really our, we rate on a five

01:22:10.659 --> 01:22:13.079
point scale. It's not really our flavor profile

01:22:13.079 --> 01:22:15.720
that we normally go for. But I think this one

01:22:15.720 --> 01:22:17.920
was pretty good. I think the shelf appeal would

01:22:17.920 --> 01:22:22.060
alone make it a, I mean, it's a 3 .5 smoke quality,

01:22:22.199 --> 01:22:23.819
but I think the shelf appeal would make it an

01:22:23.819 --> 01:22:28.079
easy four for sure. How much was it? It was $7

01:22:28.079 --> 01:22:31.199
.99. Okay. And the shelf appeal on this one,

01:22:31.260 --> 01:22:33.859
and I think this one would be a fine. want to

01:22:33.859 --> 01:22:36.739
give somebody that You don't really know what

01:22:36.739 --> 01:22:38.840
their cigar preference is and just hand it to

01:22:38.840 --> 01:22:40.000
them and be like, hey, and they'd be like, wow,

01:22:40.140 --> 01:22:42.380
this looks fantastic. It's great. We've been

01:22:42.380 --> 01:22:45.500
sucked in before on the packaging sometimes of

01:22:45.500 --> 01:22:47.800
cigars and we think it's going to be really good

01:22:47.800 --> 01:22:50.800
and it's not. But we try and do things that are

01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:53.520
affordable for the everyday person to be able

01:22:53.520 --> 01:22:56.119
to go and we can say, hey, is this cigar worth

01:22:56.119 --> 01:22:59.000
your $2 or $3? Is it worth your $8? Generally,

01:22:59.100 --> 01:23:02.020
if you spend more than $10, it should be a decent

01:23:02.020 --> 01:23:05.489
smoke. You shouldn't be complaining. about it.

01:23:05.510 --> 01:23:08.189
Good. I would say that advisory note, probably

01:23:08.189 --> 01:23:10.689
13 now with inflation, cigars have gone up in

01:23:10.689 --> 01:23:13.189
price, unfortunately. Okay. I thought China was

01:23:13.189 --> 01:23:19.520
going to pay for that, but who knows? But anyway,

01:23:19.680 --> 01:23:21.340
yeah, if I could get any other country to pay

01:23:21.340 --> 01:23:23.659
for my cigar habit, I'd be happy. I'm sure. But,

01:23:23.659 --> 01:23:26.079
you know, what do you do? And you say you might

01:23:26.079 --> 01:23:28.319
have or you've got you've got some leads. So

01:23:28.319 --> 01:23:30.039
you're going to have a book out soon, hopefully,

01:23:30.220 --> 01:23:32.680
or I don't know how long the process takes. Yeah,

01:23:32.739 --> 01:23:34.479
it's called I mean, it's called D .B. Cooper,

01:23:34.600 --> 01:23:38.000
the FBI files. And we in the Cooper world, we

01:23:38.000 --> 01:23:40.920
that book you have, the Bruce Smith book is called

01:23:40.920 --> 01:23:42.739
we call that like the Bible of Cooper, because

01:23:42.739 --> 01:23:45.079
it is kind of like a big Bible. But sure, I've

01:23:45.079 --> 01:23:47.020
been talking to Bruce himself, you know, about

01:23:47.020 --> 01:23:49.949
it and my book. It's probably, it's like, if

01:23:49.949 --> 01:23:52.649
it's the Bible, his is BC and mine, I mean, his

01:23:52.649 --> 01:23:54.770
is, you know, the Old Testament and mine's the

01:23:54.770 --> 01:23:57.170
New Testament because he wrote that book before

01:23:57.170 --> 01:23:59.729
a lot of the files came out. Right. And so we're

01:23:59.729 --> 01:24:03.050
kind of like saying the same story, but in a

01:24:03.050 --> 01:24:05.489
different way. And so he's the Old Testament,

01:24:05.510 --> 01:24:07.470
I'm the New Testament. And yeah, I'm excited

01:24:07.470 --> 01:24:09.189
about it. I've never read, I've never written

01:24:09.189 --> 01:24:10.890
a book. I'm a lawyer. I can write decently well.

01:24:10.970 --> 01:24:13.210
And it was really fun to do it. So it'll be.

01:24:13.840 --> 01:24:16.239
Hopefully it'll be and it will be a officially

01:24:16.239 --> 01:24:19.100
published book. You know, I do these agents working

01:24:19.100 --> 01:24:21.279
on it. And so it'll be cool. I have no idea when

01:24:21.279 --> 01:24:22.960
it's gonna come out because it's already written.

01:24:23.060 --> 01:24:24.800
So maybe they can print it quickly. I mean, I

01:24:24.800 --> 01:24:26.520
would like for it to be out by November because

01:24:26.520 --> 01:24:29.220
that's we have Cooper Con every year. And this

01:24:29.220 --> 01:24:31.619
year in Vancouver, Washington, last year was

01:24:31.619 --> 01:24:33.960
in Seattle. But we go back and forth. And I'd

01:24:33.960 --> 01:24:35.720
like for it to be out by the time that Cooper

01:24:35.720 --> 01:24:38.659
Con comes around and the anniversary of it. So

01:24:38.659 --> 01:24:40.739
hopefully it will be. Yeah, that would be awesome.

01:24:40.960 --> 01:24:44.170
And we do occasionally. more than occasionally

01:24:44.170 --> 01:24:46.970
do book reviews on our podcast. So that would

01:24:46.970 --> 01:24:48.770
definitely be one that we would like to do a

01:24:48.770 --> 01:24:50.350
book review on. Maybe we can have you back on

01:24:50.350 --> 01:24:52.710
and talk about that. I would love that. I really

01:24:52.710 --> 01:24:54.250
enjoyed this, guys. And I really appreciate you

01:24:54.250 --> 01:24:57.029
letting me babble on as y 'all smoke cigars because

01:24:57.029 --> 01:24:59.689
I can paddle on for hours on this. This was so

01:24:59.689 --> 01:25:02.430
enjoyable. This was so fun. It's great hearing

01:25:02.430 --> 01:25:04.350
from somebody who has a lot more knowledge in

01:25:04.350 --> 01:25:07.590
something than I do. And being able to learn

01:25:07.590 --> 01:25:10.670
and listen and you very clearly have a passion

01:25:10.670 --> 01:25:13.520
for it and know a lot. about it. So thank you

01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:15.420
very much. All right. Well, thank you guys. And

01:25:15.420 --> 01:25:17.840
y 'all have a good night and hopefully we can

01:25:17.840 --> 01:25:19.800
talk again soon. Okay. Yep. That sounds great

01:25:19.800 --> 01:25:22.619
to all our listeners. Thanks for listening. Bye

01:25:22.619 --> 01:25:23.680
guys. Be safe. Have fun.