Johnny Ringo was born May 3rd of 1850, and he
died in July of 1882 in Arizona. So he died at
32, much like Jesus. Okay. Did he have 12 close
friends? Yeah. Yes, he did. Welcome to Nice Ashes.
Join hosts Mike and Nate for cigars and culture.
Let's go beyond the smoke. What are we smoking
today, Mike? We are smoking a Don Rafael, and
the cap is not tasty at all. Okay. It's not offensive,
but... Yeah, not bad. Not, uh, I don't know,
kind of middle of the road, I guess, I would
say. I don't know, not overly exciting, but not
mouth -puckeringly bad. What are you pairing
your cigar with today? I am pairing my cigar
with... A brew from a local brewery, and it is
from Falling Knife, and it is called Verbal Tip.
Oh, there we are. What about you? I am pairing
mine with ice water and 10 -year Henry McKenna
single barrel. Nice. Special occasion or just
podcast day? It's just podcast day. Hell yeah,
it is. I opened this bottle about three, four
weeks ago. And so it doesn't have very much left
or very much gone. And I was like, well, I'll
try it now and see. No time like the present.
Yeah, first few puffs are fine. Kind of a weird
overtone or undertone or something. I'm still
getting that aspirin flavor off of it, but it's
not. Yeah, maybe it's the cap. It's not terrible.
We're doing our best to just explain as we go
along. It's certainly not as bad as that other
one we had a couple episodes back. Not as bad
as the other one, but this one so far, I'm not
excited. Well, it's long. It's another long one.
It's long, and it's not tasty so far. Not yet.
It's got time. It's got time to grow. What are
we talking about, Mike? Well, we have a theme
here this season with me. And we're going to
talk about something that I did not know was
a conspiracy until recently. I actually read
an article, oh, I would say four months ago,
about a gentleman named Johnny Ringo. And apparently
Johnny Ringo's death is controversial. I did
not know that, as many of these characters are.
I suppose, since I knew you were going to ask.
I will first tell the listeners who Johnny Ringo
is. I obviously know who Johnny Ringo is. You
know who Johnny Ringo is. Actually, I don't know.
I don't know who Johnny Ringo is. You're fucking
lying. You know who he is. Every American. More
or less knows who Johnny Ringo is. Okay. Do you
seriously not know who Johnny Ringo is? Well,
not by name. I don't know. What is he, some famous
porn star or something? I am judging you so,
so hard. So we will start off with this. Johnny
Ringo was born May 3rd of 1850. And here's a
hint. He died in July of 1882 in Arizona. So
he died at 32, much like Jesus. His father died.
This was a pivotal moment. Did he have 12 close
friends? Yeah. Yes, he did. So he was born, I
think, in Indiana. He was born in the eastern
United States somewhere. And moved west, as so
many people did, after the Civil War. And he
saw his father blow his own head off with a shotgun
at 14. Accidentally, he fell off a wagon traveling
west, like Oregon Trail -style accident. That
might be a contributing factor of what happened
for the rest of his life. Notable mentions before
the time period that we're concerned with. He
was involved in the Mason County War, which was
one of the dozens of little skirmishes that went
on in the western United States. This particular
one was cattle rustlers and the Texas Rangers
versus German immigrants who were trying to ranch
in Texas. So Johnny Ringo was buddies with one
of the Rangers. in his 20s, and he was a cattle
wrestler, and he, of course, fought on the side
of the wrestlers. And then what we know is that
in 1877, right before he moved to Arizona, he
was a lawman in Texas, and he was in and out
of jail. So Johnny Ringo was a member of the
Cochise County Cowboys, and the Cochise County
Cowboys were notable because they were one of
the first instances of legit organized crime
in the West. So they would systematically steal
cattle, bring them across the border, steal cattle
in Mexico, bring them across the border into
the United States and sell them illegally. They
also held up stagecoaches and all the traditional
Western fare. And most notably, and I figured
the Cochise County Cowboys would have been the
trigger word for you, he was one of the antagonists
of the Earp Gang in Tombstone, Arizona. Okay.
Yeah. So that is Johnny Ringo's fame. He was
notorious for being a gunfighter and a murderer
and a womanizer. Sure. And a little quick story,
and this is going to be like a setup. Okay. So
in 1879, Ringo... Had been in Tombstone for a
year or two. He shot a man named Lewis Hancock
in the middle of a bar. Okay. Did not go to jail
for some reason. Well, we know why. If you know
anything about the Earp gang and the Sheriff
Behan and all the Tombstone politics of that
era, we know why he didn't go to jail. But he
shot a gentleman named Lewis Hancock in a bar.
Why, Nate, did he shoot this gentleman? Who survived?
Well, it was likely an issue of states' rights.
No. Probably. Johnny Ringo. They were probably
playing cards and he was accused of being a cheat.
Isn't that the most. That's like number one.
Number two is like over a woman. No, that would
be also in his character. And we'll talk about
that later, but no. I don't know. I guess he's
really thinking outside the box of why he needs
to shoot this guy. Johnny Ringo was very drunk
at the bar and he bought a round of shots for
everybody. And Lewis Hancock turned down the
shot saying that he preferred beer. And Ringo
was so insulted that he shot him. I mean, there's
an adage, and I don't think it's even that old
of an adage, but maybe it is, is you go to somebody's
house and they offer you a beer. Don't complain
about the type of beer. Your number one favorite
drink is free, and then your second favorite
can be whatever your actual favorite is, right?
Right. You're saying that Lewis deserved his
fate because he turned down a shot of whiskey.
I think so. I think so. I mean, you know what?
Somebody buys me a Jell -O shot or, you know,
something that I'm not particularly fond of.
Am I going to bitch and moan or am I just going
to drink it? Mama didn't raise no quitter. I'm
just going to drink it. It's the thought that
counts. It is the thought that counts. It is.
So. I mean, being shot might be a stretch, but
it was a different time back then, so. Right,
right, right. I'll allow it. So now do you recall
who Johnny Ringo is? No. He must not be down
with the OK Corral, the OK Corral lore. Yeah,
I'm not hugely down with the OK Corral lore.
I'm not hugely down with actual real cowboys.
I mean, I'm down with them. I love cowboys and
I love westerns and all that, but I haven't done
much reading or history learning of actual cowboys.
You know, I thought for a while you were because
I don't know. Wild Bill. Wild Bill. Because he's
the one that went around to the different fairs
and stuff and put on the cowboy shows, right?
Like the world fairs and stuff. And Annie Oakley.
They're more performers. Yeah, that was... I'm
going to check. I think that was Wild Bill. Because
there's Bill Hickok. Yeah, Bill Hickok. And Bill
Hickok. And then there's like Buffalo Bill Cody
or something, right? Buffalo Bill Cody is the
guy who was the traveling performer. Yes. Wild
Bill Hickok is the guy who got shot playing poker.
Oh, yes. Yes. So I haven't done extensive research
on actual real cowboys, more of the fictional
cowboys. I like cowboys. It was such a short
window of history, but I know some of them had
other names. And so I was waiting for you to
tell me that, you know, Johnny Ringo's more famously
known as. Jesse James or somebody else, right?
No, no, no. He does have ties to the Jesse James
gang because apparently some of his relatives
were robbed by the James gang. Sure. And I know
more about them because by where my grandpa used
to have a cabin, it was, I don't know, like an
hour drive from Little Bohemia where I think
the James gang holed up and got shot up at by
the feds. And so you can go there and have dinner
and it's a restaurant and everything. So I know
a little bit more about that because it's more
regionally appropriate to. northern wisconsin
right and similar to like arizona gang got decimated
by a bunch of farmers in minnesota when they
tried to rob what the hell was it north branch
or something like that yeah something like that
yeah yeah they came up to minnesota and thought
they were going to get away with it and a bunch
of they thought they were hot shit and they found
out they weren't yeah like they found out that
they're very popular where they're from but not
where i'm from yes like they were just Viewed
as criminal scum, which is what they were, but
that is not related to this. They weren't pretty
boy Floyd who would destroy mortgage documents
at the bank so that everybody loved him because
he got a lot of people out of debt just because
he decided to burn mortgage documents at banks
he robbed. Yeah, different era, but yeah. Yeah,
different era for sure. A lot of those guys were
beloved and protected because they weren't robbing
anybody. They weren't robbing normal people.
Yeah. But anyway. Yeah, the carry on the American
outlaw theme, but yes. Keep going, Mike. Back
to the Wild West. Back to the Wild West. But
yeah, Johnny Ringo was a member of the Cowboys
gang who was one of the antagonists of the Earps
during the OK Corral era of the Earp regime.
So it's like the famous Tombstone, Arizona boom
town shit. Yeah. And I've been to Tombstone,
Arizona, but I don't, it's been many years. So
I don't know if they have much about Johnny Ringo.
I'm sure they did. They still have his grave
in that area. But anyway, in 1882, July, they
have an exact date, but it's not known exactly
when he died. They found him next to a large
oak tree on the banks of the Upper Turkey Creek.
and this is an idyllic shaded spot it's right
off a main thoroughfare and it's about a quarter
mile from one of his buddy's ranches so he knew
where he was he was in a well -traveled area
he was within walking distance of a safe haven
so to speak but also off of a highway uh and
he was seen resting let's call it by several
people who were traveling by a uh teamster actually
is the one who found him dead so okay he could
have been there for who knows how long yeah he
was he was resting deeply Yeah, he was resting
deeply. Right. He was Pepsi'd. The general idea
is that he was riding a horse. He was on a drinking
binge. He had been seen the day previous with
two bottles of whiskey, and undoubtedly he was
either still drinking or hungover. He stopped,
watered his horse, took his boots off, walked
and cooled his feet. The horse got spooked and
ran off. And by the time that people found Ringo,
he had taken his under... shirt off, had wrapped
his feet with it, had put his gun belts back
on. upside down one of them so hastily put his
gun belts back on and then he was no longer alive
so interestingly enough he was 700 feet from
a person's house and they did not report anything
going on interestingly these are people he didn't
know oh didn't know okay because you said he
was close ish to he was a quarter mile away from
his house he was 700 feet away from somebody
else's little cat it was well known at the time
that he was often depressed and he had fears
of being gunned down he had talked about being
paranoid and how he kind of understood that he
was going to get shot to death eventually someday
yep And his friend knew that he was there. It
wasn't a secret where he was. Let's put it that
way. Yeah. So we have the official story of Johnny
Ringo's death. And this is what everybody says
happened, minus some characters that we're going
to talk about later. Sure. Not the Earps, I hope.
Not the Earps. We'll get there. Okay. So the
official story is that Johnny Ringo got... either
being hung over or drunk and shot himself, you
know, in despair over his horse running away,
even though he was a quarter mile away from his
friend's house. Yeah. And the horse was later
found with his boots on it and all that shit.
So we know that that kind of happened. So where
was the horse? And I'm going to just assume that
you were there and you were the one that, you
know, investigated the scene. Were the boots
in the horse like stuck in the stirrups or were
the boots on the horse like he took his boots
off to go wade in the water and tucked them in
the saddle? The boots were tied over the horn
of the saddle. Sure. Okay. So, I mean, it was
pretty clear that he walked the horse into the
stream. Okay. And he was in the, he took his
belts off. So he was in the water. Yep. I just
wanted to make sure it wasn't like he got thrown
off the horse for some reason. No, no, no, no.
Maybe he was concussed and drunk and depressed.
He was probably drunk and depressed. Well, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then was cooling off in
the stream, and then the horse ran for some reason,
and he had to put his shit back on. Sure. And
that's why his gun belts were upside down. Or
did the horse run because there was a stranger
in the bush? Well, man, we're going to get to
that. You said conspiracy theories, so, you know,
let the imagination run a little bit. Oh, yeah.
So, anyway, he was found with a revolver. Oh,
go ahead. Well, I was going to say, he was seen
napping by several people. But when you say napping,
it wasn't that he was actually napping, was it?
No, they saw him sitting beneath this tree off
of the highway. Yeah, but was he alive at that
time? When the Teamster found him, was he sitting
the same way? You know what I mean? The Teamster
walked up and found him dead. And I think that
he was probably dead the entire time that people
saw him. Sure. I mean, that was my question is
like, was he already dead? And people were just
like, oh, hey, there's, you know, like Weekend
at Bernie's style, right? Like, oh, there's wild
gunman Johnny Ringo. He's napping, okay. Well
-known cattle rustler outlaw. But anyway, his
revolver was in his right hand. He got shot in
the head. Of course. And he was drinking heavily
and had depression. What we would call depression
now. Yeah. There's some issues with this story.
Some people, the people who found the body made
a coroner's investigation. So they call them
a coroner's jury at the time. And so they got
11 people or 12 people together and they looked
at the body and then they buried it and they
made a report. And in the report, it was noted.
that his body was not in a natural position.
They also noted that he had no black powder marks
on his skin, which, if you've ever shot a black
powder firearm, significant amounts of fire come
out the end. They are an absolute bitch to clean.
Yes. If you were to shoot a black powder pistol
at short range, you would definitely have some
burns, right? Well, and presumably if he were
wet from the stream, that black powder would
accumulate on the water. You know, like if you
have wet hands and you're like sawing wood, right?
The sawdust accumulates and gets kind of sludgy,
whatever. So the black powder would do something
similar because it's very acrid and very intense.
Like there's a lot of powder. You know, you watch
these, you watch these Civil War movies and you're
like, oh yeah, I can totally see across the field.
Well, after like two rifles fire black powder,
you can't see shit. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And he
had a, he had a rifle with him also. He had,
well, he had two cartridge belts. One was for
the rifle, one was for the pistol, but his pistol
belt didn't have a holster. So the holster was
left on the horse. Okay. Somehow. That ran away.
That's why he was upset. That's why he was upset,
according to this theory. Right. Of course. Why
not? Well, I mean, you know, you find somebody
dead, you know that they're. Have what? Bouts
of malady or whatever they called it back then.
And you have to invent a reason why. It could
be any number of reasons. Who knows why? But,
you know, it could be depression for sure. Right.
He could have been upset about the horse. But
anyway, yeah, I don't, you know, I'm not trying
to step on your thing. Well, no. Yeah, these
aren't the only issues. I'll save the juiciest
part for last. So his boots were left on the
horse. Yeah, his boots were left on the horse,
which shows that he was at least trying to take
care of not ruining his footwear, which is strange
if you're going to commit suicide. Also, he wasn't
starving to death. He wasn't going to die of
thirst. And he knew where he was. And he was
only a quarter mile away from his buddy's house.
Well, and he was by a stream. So, yeah, there's
sustenance right there. Yeah, exactly. Like,
if he wanted to find his horse, he could walk
to his friend's place down the road, get a horse,
and go find his fucking horse. And they did find
his horse later. Hey, Jimbo, help me find my
horse. It ran off. Exactly. Exactly. And this
is kind of like the smoking gun. Ha ha ha. Literally.
Ha ha ha. The part of his head that came off
with the blast, part of it had been cut off with
a knife and was missing. So he was partially
scalped before they got there. By someone. So
either somebody found his corpse and scalped
him for some reason, or somebody else did it.
Yeah, as one does. As one does. Well, this is
Wild West days. Like, there's going to be some
antics, these characters. We're going to get
into it. These guys are not normal by modern
standards. Well, though. They could never have
been, Mike. They could never have been. No, no,
no. So. We're going to go to conspiracy theory
number one. This is the one that's very popular.
Okay, this is the most popular one. This is the
most popular one. Okay, my question, before you
start going, Mike, I want you to know at the
very end, I'm going to ask you which one you
think is true, whether it be the official story
or one of the conspiracy stories. There we go.
Okay, theory number one. Theory number one, Wyatt
Earp did it. Wyatt Earp, of course, was on his
vendetta ride during this time period. Very famous.
If people don't know it, look it up. But long
story short, Johnny Ringo was part of the gang
that killed one of his brothers and basically
crippled the other one. And he went on a tirade
and very interesting Wild West stuff. I enjoy
it. Well, and the Earps weren't... Fully acting
in good faith, from what I recall. Were they?
Well, that's why I refer to them as the Earp
gang. Yeah, I call them the Earp gang because
Johnny Ringo was a deputy and was part of the
Rangers. It's not like he wasn't a lawman also
at some points in time. So these guys were in
and out of being law enforcement. Yeah, everything
was fairly fluid. Yeah, Wyatt Earp had four wives,
and they were all prostitutes. He was running
whores and gambling dens and all sorts of shit.
He has been accused reputably of a lot of crimes.
If they're good at what they do, I mean, you
know. Well, Wyatt Earp is the good guy because
he lived long enough to be a Hollywood guy, and
he helped in the early filming of Westerns. So,
of course, you know. And he famously settled
Dodge City and Tombstone. So he was a well -known
lawman. Yeah, he had a good reputation in terms
of, settling things in the same sense, I suppose.
I don't know exactly the same sense, but very
similar to Elon Musk, where if you don't dig
too deeply, Elon Musk seems to be like a billionaire
genius and people like him because he's a little
irreverent. But if you start digging deeper,
you're kind of like, hmm, you know, Wyatt, I
don't know, man. This was a little questionable.
That was a little questionable. But, you know,
you live long enough, you get to write history.
So there you go. That's one of these things where...
He lived long enough to be the victor for sure.
Yep. Do you think Wyatt Earp shot Mussolini?
Possibly. If he wasn't dead, you know, 20 years
earlier. So there's some claims that support
this. First of all, Ringo was a member of the
Cowboys and Wyatt Earp systemically slaughtered
all of the members of the Cowboys. Yep. Not just
the men, but the women and the children too.
But the women and the children too. At multiple
points, claimed that he killed Ringo. Yep. He
also denied it at different points. Sure. White
Earp was pretty fast and loose with what was
true and not true. Let's put it that way. And
he was pretty loose with the truth in a literal
sense. So he is denied and claimed that he did
it at different times. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. Now, there's two problems with this. White
Earp was not in Arizona at the time of Ringo's
death. And that is documented. And yeah, that's
what that is. That's all it is. Like he was elsewhere.
We know he was elsewhere unless he forged those
documents. Okay. Where was he? He just wasn't
there. Either in Colorado or in California, depending
on the source. Either in Colorado or California,
but not in Arizona. Sure. Because his family
lived in California and Doc Holliday was in Colorado
at the time. Okay. So, yeah, yeah. Now, theory
number, you know, two here, conspiracy theory
number two. And this is a variant. Yeah. A variant
of the first one. And that is that Doc Holliday
killed Ringo. And, of course, Doc Holliday was
good bros with White Earp and the Earp gang.
He was a well -known. character of those era.
This story did not originate from the era. It
was originated later in the Hollywood era because
Doc Holliday was a known killer, kind of. His
reputation. There is some supporting evidence
that Johnny Ringo hated Doc Holliday because
Johnny Ringo was sleeping with Big Nose Kate.
who was famously Doc Holliday's spouse. Don't
we all fucking love Big Nose Kate? Yeah, don't
we all? And Doc Holliday threatened to kill Johnny
Ringo multiple times as a result of him banging
his prostitute girlfriend's spouse's wife. This
might go on the Spice Rack, but holy shit. Is
Big Nose Kate Jewish? She is a Hungarian Jewish
woman, yes. Fuck. Lived outside. She also survived.
She actually lived in the Arizona home for settlers.
So she was one of the women that lived on the
public dole in Arizona in her old age. What a
goddamn fucking nickname, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, she left Doc Holliday to go prostituting.
And then, of course, the Earps abandoned her.
So all the money the Earps made, she could have
had part of that being part of their gang. Sure.
And then she left. So, yeah. Fuck. There we go.
Yeah. Let's fucking big nose Kate, Jesus Christ.
Big nose Kate. That's the funniest thing I've
heard in a long time. Yeah, she was a Jewish
woman of Hungarian descent. Okay. And her nose
wasn't that big. Well, I'm sure. It was big,
but it wasn't like. Cyrano de Borgiac. Well,
you know what? In the 1800s, they didn't pull
many punches out there. So a cigar check, Mike.
I'm a little over halfway, I think. Oh, God.
I'm not even a quarter. You're not even a quarter?
We're half an hour into this thing. I know. I
know. I'm being a naughty boy. I'm not. How do
you like it? It's fine. It's not offensive, I
guess. I'll say that. It's not offensive. It's
not to my taste preferences. I'll also add. So
it's fine. It's actually not offensive at all.
It's okay. You know, it's not one that I would
go out and be like, hey, I got to smoke a non
-Raphael. But I'm not necessarily not going to
smoke one if that's what's there. And if, you
know, fucking Johnny Ringo offers me one, goddamn,
I'm going to smoke it, of course. Fucking A.
It does go well with bourbon. Well, anything
does, really. That's also true. You know what
else goes well with bourbon? Big nose cake. Better
cigars. Big nose cake. Yeah, well, whiskey does
for sure. And tuberculosis. Tuberculosis and
whiskey. Yeah, and the syphilis. Anyway. Sorry,
big nose. I carry on. So this is a variant of
the Wyatt Earp claim. Basically, the idea is
that they were riding together and it just happened
to be Doc Holliday that killed him and not Wyatt
Earp. Sure, sure. They could have been riding
with their cabin boy. Tommy, and it could have
been Tommy. Yeah, it could have been Jack Johnson.
It could have been any of these guys who were
part of the Earp crew. But specifically Doc Holliday
because it's romantic because, like I said, he
had personal beef. Now, there is a pretty serious
issue with this, and that is that Doc Holliday
was facing legal charges in Colorado at the time
of Johnny Ringo's death, and we know he was in
Colorado, and we know that Wyatt Earp visited
him there. And we know Wyatt Earp wasn't even
there. So Wyatt Earp wasn't there, Doc Holliday
wasn't there, so it couldn't have been either.
Either of them, really. That is correct. Ooh,
is there one? I hope the juicy one is Big Nose
Kate did it. That would be fucking awesome, but
I think that... Man, these conspiracy theorists
need better imaginations. Yeah, yeah. Big Nose
Kate should have done it to alleviate tensions
with Doc. I don't know. Well, yeah, she got to
get, you know, foresight being what it is. She
needed that ERP money. I'm going to write my
fanfic. I'm shipping hard. There we go. There
we go. So this one has more credence, this next
theory. Okay. I didn't mean to throw you off
your groove, Mike. No, no. No, no. Yeah, my groove.
My groove. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, this next theory,
the next couple ones have more weight. Okay.
There's a theory that Doc Holliday was killed
by a gentleman named Buckskin Frank Leslie. And
Frank Leslie was a notorious gunman. He has a
long checkered history. We'll go into some of
that. But he is a known casual murderer and scumbag
who killed both men and women extremely casually.
Okay. He was also known to be - Kind of like
the United Healthcare CEO? Exactly. Exactly.
Okay. He was also known to be in a beef with
Ringo over a woman, which is a theme. Well, that
was one of my guesses for why the other guy got
shot in the bar. Yep, it is, it is. At least
this time it's not Big Nose Kate, right? Right,
right, right. It's Tight Box Kelly or something,
isn't it? Tight Box Kelly. Oh, my God. Anyway.
I thought we were just making up nicknames now.
I don't know. That's true. He actually did marry
a woman named May, and he was caught sleeping
with her, shot her husband, and then married
her. Then they say romance is dead. Yeah, they
say romance is dead. But yeah, Frank Leslie at
least was in Tombstone at the time. He owned
a ranch and he was involved in the town. He's
one of these scumbags that were floating around
at the time. Doesn't have an alibi. He's there.
Right. Also, he confessed to the murder when
he was in jail for, guess what? Shooting somebody
else? He murdered his stable hand and his wife
and his mistress. Oh. I think that... Clean slate
for that guy, right? Yeah, yeah. I think he killed
the mistress and the stable boy and was caught
after he killed his wife because his wife was
jealous or something like that. She was jealous
everyone else got killed and she didn't? Right,
exactly. Leave that guy alone. He's on a bender.
He's going to get you. Just smile and nod and
go to some other state because he'll never find
you. Yeah, there's some issues with this, of
course. This claim came many years after the
fact, and it came when he was already in jail
and he was being interviewed by a newspaper.
Okay. There's no contemporary evidence that he
was in the area. He was in Tombstone, like he
was in Arizona in that area, but he wasn't spotted
like there, there. And also he was known to be
a liar and kind of these tall tales, Western
fable type characters, similar to wild. Yeah,
I'm sure glad the tall tale telling politicians
and things have kind of died out in our society.
Yeah, yeah. He was similar to a Buffalo Bill
Cody, except Bill Cody didn't murder people often.
He wasn't going around and just killing men and
women constantly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Jeffrey
Dahmer, no, but... You know, other people maybe.
Right. So there's another variant. There's two
of these. These next two are variants of the
same idea. And that was that Ringo was assassinated
by another member of the cowboy gang. And the
idea is that one of his gang members killed him.
There's support to this because Ringo was hated
by every person that knew him, including members
of his own gang. But not Big Nose Kate. But not
Big Nose Kate. I think she hated Doc Holliday
more is probably the reason why. But he was hated
and feared because of his violence, even amongst
other criminals like himself. And he would randomly
kill people for no reason, obviously. And he
was very, very dangerous. Also, the cowboys were
falling apart at that time. They had a lot of
pressure on him by Wyatt Earp. So there was a
lot of infighting. And it's speculated that he
might have been killed for those reasons. I mean,
it's hard to keep a gang together when you're...
The opposing gang has, like, the state and federal
money to pursue you and kill you. That is true.
They also had, that's the thing about the Cowboys,
is they had the sheriff's department and marshals
on their side, too. All these little wars that
happened in the Southwest, both sides had lawmen
on their side. They just happened to have, you
know, the Cochise County Sheriff versus the fucking
whatever county sheriff. And then the, you know,
they had two different factions of law enforcement
fighting each other, basically. But yeah, the
Cowboys had lawmen on their side. Oh, yeah. It
was kind of, you know, we remember the Alamo
for everybody, Manifest Destiny and yada yada
out there at that time. So the problem with this
is that nobody claimed, nobody in the gang claimed
that they killed him, and it probably would have
become, it probably would not have been secret
if it was a member of his own gang. Let's put
it that way. Yeah, I mean, potentially. Potentially,
potentially. I mean, kind of like, you know,
the gang politics, though, right? I mean, if
you kill the big gang boss, are you going to
brag about it? Or are you going to... Take, you
know, like, so who took, who took over the gang
after that? Well, the Clantons were in charge
of the gang. The Clantons were in charge of the
gang. Ringo was kind of like a hitman sort of
thing. Like he was like one of the big wigs,
but he wasn't, he wasn't like, he was like a
capo. He wasn't like a, like a Don. Yep. Right.
But. Well, you know, capos, if capos get out
of the line, you got to clip them, you know?
Well, exactly. Exactly. And then you don't ever
tell. Like, why would you tell? There's no reason
to tell. That is true. Because everyone knows.
Everyone in the gang anyway, right? So this next
theory is possible. I like it. I like it. The
next theory is that he was recognized by a random
passerby and was shot, and then it was set up
as a suicide. Okay. And there's many variants
to that, but it was, like, not somebody that
we know of, just a random passerby who did not
like Ringo for some reason. Sure, maybe he stole
some cattle from him or whatever. absolutely
and this was a popular road and he was in the
middle of cattle country like any of these fucking
guys could have seen him and shot him and nobody
would have said a fucking word washing his fucking
dirty cattle rustling washing exactly so the
details do lead to the idea that he was murdered
for example he didn't have powder burns on his
body he was not in a natural seating position
he was clearly these the people who saw him thought
he was placed there the body could have been
moved after the fact you never know well and
you know it also kind of depends because if you
are standing up and this is not i'm not trying
to be morbid i'm just i'm just trying to say
like i've seen some some tv shows and some films
and shit if you stand up and shoot yourself you're
going to fall in probably a not very natural
way. I mean, it'll be natural because that's
what you do when you die, right? I mean, that's
like a natural thing. Well, he was in a seated
position. Sure. He was found in a seated position.
But in a seated position that would lead people
to believe that he did not sit down, shoot himself,
and then die. He was in a position that did not
appear like he sat there himself. Sure. Yes.
Okay. Okay. So. That's fair. Also, they didn't
have good, they had no ballistics, basically.
So there's no way to tell what size bullet hit
him. We gotta bring this slug down. To the lab.
Yeah, exactly. Sir, the lab will not be invented
for another hundred years. Right. And one of
the things that really stuck out to me was that
his revolver gun belt was upside down. Yeah.
And there was no holster or method to holster
a pistol on his body. And he wasn't holding it
in his pants. So he clearly left his gun belt
on his fucking horse. You know what I mean? Like
he didn't have his, he had a rifle and a pistol,
but no way to hold his pistol. His rifle wasn't
on the horse. And this wouldn't necessarily be
100 % telling, because Lord knows what he might
be shooting at. Did they open up the cylinder
of his revolver to see if one shell was fired?
One shell exactly was fired, and it was the one
that the hammer was resting on. However, at that
time... It was not uncommon for people to purposefully
do that if they were writing actively. Yes. Because
the pistol could go off accidentally while writing.
So... 100%. Inconclusive. Yeah. Inconclusive.
That is... It was on an empty shell, but... Yep.
Yeah. Yeah. Not 100 % inconclusive, but... doesn't
help other than it could potentially have been
his gun that killed him. Exactly, exactly. And,
well, funnily enough, Wyatt Earp famously almost
shot himself to death with his own pistol, writing.
So, like, it was common knowledge that you could
fucking kill yourself, you know. Like, you could.
So, anyways. Well, and if only more people took
the same care they did in the 1800s. The gun
went off, I was cleaning it. Oh, I love that
one. Oh, fuck. That one is the worst excuse I've
ever heard. Like, that's just a cover -up. Yeah.
That's just a cover up. Nobody cleans their gun
with a bullet in the trigger. But that's a conspiracy
theory for another episode. Yes, yes, yes. And
we have one last one. And this one also is possible.
So the last two here are the most likely, right?
Okay. Yep. And this last one makes a lot of sense.
And this is called the Michael O 'Rourke theory.
Okay. Some people think that Michael O 'Rourke,
who was an itinerant gambler, who was in the
area, killed Ringo. And there's two reasons why
he would want to kill Ringo. He was arrested
in January 81 in Tucson for murdering a mining
engineer named Henry Schneider. Ringo attempted
to lead a lynch mob and break him out of jail
and lynch him on the street. And Wyatt Earp broke
up this lynch mob. Sure. It's prevented him from
being. And he went to trial, no evidence was
found, and he was released, okay? Sure. I have
a couple questions. One, is there a reason why
Johnny Ringo wanted to lynch this man? I believe
it was gang politics because Michael O 'Rourke
was tied with the Earp faction in this battle.
So it was just like, we're going to lynch one
of the allies of our rival kind of thing. Sure,
sure. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, there's additional
information for this. Sure. The last known sighting
of O 'Rourke was in Tombstone. earlier it was
in 81 so he he disappeared off the record in
81 and this murder occurred in 82 but he was
known to be in that area a frequenter of those
parts he was a frequenter of those parts he was
also known to be a member of the erp clique And
he owed Wyatt Earp a ton of money. Sure. And
he also had a personal grudge against Ringo.
And we know that Wyatt Earp forgave him his debts.
He never went and looked for him afterwards,
which is out of character for a guy who is a,
you know, Shylock, I believe is what they call
them. Okay. So yeah, there's no reason why Wyatt
Earp would just allow this guy to walk without
paying him back. Right. So he did something for
Wyatt Earp. to make him not hunt him down. But
yeah, somehow this guy paid White Earp back and
then had enough resources left over to disappear.
Like, you know, just disappear off the record
and walk away. And it was no longer Michael O
'Rourke. He was some other person. And that was
also a common theme amongst these guys. You know,
their background stories changed. Yeah, well,
and there was no database back then. It was very
easy to do. You could go to one town and be Michael
O 'Rourke. You could go to another town and be,
you know, Seamus McGarry or whatever the fuck,
right? Right. Well, like buckskin Frank Leslie
claimed to be an army scout and wore buckskins,
but apparently he had no tracking skills. Yeah.
So, you know, he just probably just made it up.
He was just a fucking gambler and a murderer
and a degenerate. Yeah, he killed some dude wearing
buckskins and it was the same size as him and
he put them on. Now he's a tracker guy that can't
track. And like a lot of these guys, like Frank
Leslie specifically, he just like one day said,
I'm going to Mexico and he just disappeared.
So. And Michael O 'Rourke's the same thing. Like,
he was hanging out in Tombstone, owed a shit
ton of money to Wyatt Earp, also wanted to murder
Johnny Ringo. Ringo died and he disappears. You
know what I mean? Yeah. It could be coincidence.
Could be. He could have paid him back some other
way. Because Wyatt Earp was on the run from the
law for a while as well. Sure, yeah. Even though
he was also a marshal. That's why this is so
fucked up. He was a U .S. marshal, but he was
on the run from other U .S. marshals who were
trying to arrest him. But he was also trying
to arrest these other guys. And it's like, it's
very confusing at best. It's like Billy the Kid's
story, right? Oh, sure. They're all deputies.
You have these two gangs of sheriff's deputies
battling each other from different counties.
But yeah, that's the high and the low of it.
I think those are all of the conspiracy theories
that I could dig up. Sure, yeah. So not a terrible
little section. Which one do you most associate?
I think is most true. Well, I think that the
evidence is against Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday
doing it. Yeah. I mean, it's the same thing with
the fucking Mussolini thing where it's like,
yeah, it's a huge feather in your cap if it was
you, dude, but it wasn't you. Right. Yeah. Like
we know Doc Holliday was in fucking in trouble
with the law in Colorado and was showing up to
arraignments and he was in a hospital there too
for a while. Yep. For tuberculosis. And we know
that Wyatt Earp was either California, Colorado,
in between, like, He was not there. Yeah, he
didn't really have the time to go and do this
thing. No, he did not have the time. It just
doesn't work out that way. Yeah, travel time.
Despite the claims, the multiple claims that
Wyatt Earp made that he killed him over the years.
That's kind of like Doc Holliday is this famed
gunman or gunslinger. He never committed a murder.
Every single killing that he did was either a
part of a law enforcement action or was a stabbing
at a poker table and it was considered self -defense.
Sure. So, like he did. kill a lot of people don't
get me wrong but he was also like a sheriff's
deputy and a u .s marshal and he did it by the
book yeah yeah he's like on the right side of
the law he's a dentist like yeah yeah so and
then frank leslie i mean he's just a scumbag
who killed lots of people and surely if he would
have killed ringo he would have bragged about
it immediately like he would have been he would
have went to the newspaper and talked about it
not waited for him Like wait until he was in
jail on murder charges, double murder charges.
Yeah. The same with the outlaw. Like if he was
killed by one of the Clantons, they would have
admitted to it. Probably. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah.
I feel like for me, the random passerby theory
is pretty good. You know, like, uh, cause it's
almost like the Thanos thing in the Marvel universe,
right? Where the person is like, you killed my
whole family. And he's like, I don't even know
who you are. Right. So he pissed off somebody
who had a vendetta and he's like, this guy's
like, holy fuck, there's that guy that I have
this huge vendetta against and I'm going to go
kill him. And, you know, Johnny Ringo's like,
I don't even know who you are. Like, I don't
remember stealing that shit from you, but I guess
I did or whatever. Or maybe, you know, whatever.
Maybe he stole his whole, like, cattle. And the
guy couldn't afford to feed his family that winter.
And they had to, like, I don't know, eat one
of their legs or something. I don't know. Whatever
the fuck, right? Absolutely. And some, like,
atrocity. And then this guy, and he thought nothing
of it. And then this guy is like, holy shit,
there's the guy that, like, upended my whole
world. I'm going to go kill him. And then that
was that. Yep. And then the other one is kind
of like, if it was a gang thing, the gangs don't
necessarily. care about publicity. So they wouldn't
have gone to the newspaper or made a big, bold
claim about it, depending on which gang it was
and how, I don't know, self -grandiosizing, what
is the word, Mike? Self, you know, like they
don't want to like pump themselves up. Grandisement.
Yeah, grandisement. They don't need to do that.
They're a gang. They're like, hey man, this guy
that stepped out of line, we took care of him.
Don't step out of line, the rest of you. And
then that's it. That was the message. It wasn't
for the people. It was for the gang, right? So
they wouldn't necessarily go to the authorities
or newspapers or what have you. Yeah. The Michael
O 'Rourke theory is fine. I think that it's less
likely. Yeah, it's not a bad one. It's not unplausible.
It's very possible. But I do think that the most
likely solution was that a random passerby who
was wronged by Ringo shot him. And then chased
his, either the horse got chased off in the process.
Yeah. Or he chased the horse off after the fact.
Yeah. And then put his gun belts on real quick
and staged it. Sure. And you have to imagine,
and this is further to your point, like this
is a known criminal. Everybody hates his fucking
guts. Nobody's going to question him being dead,
right? Nobody is going to question. Oh, he's
dead. So let's say you are a minor. or a townsperson,
or a rancher, or a ranch hand, or whoever, and
you happen to be, like, bed -crossed by Johnny
Ringo, and you see him, you could fucking shoot
him and get away with it. He was 700 feet from
a house. Like, one of the Smiths could have shot
him. And no, they were right there. You're town
extra number three, and you can shoot him and
get away with it. That is correct. Like in the
Hollywood movie. You're town extra number three.
Yeah. Even if they knew you did it, they would
not say a word. Well, why would they? They saved
all their cattle for the rest of their lifetimes,
basically. Exactly. Exactly. So it's not unlikely.
The lack of powder burns is a real problem for
me. Yeah. Part of his skull being missing or
part of his scalp being missing. That's fucking
weird. It's weird, but that was kind of normal
behavior for the time. So it could have been
one of the coroner guys that cut it off. Yeah.
Was it normal behavior of whites or could it
have actually been like a Native American? almost
undoubtedly a white guy scalping was was started
by white people and so it was like within the
normal range people saved hair and made trinkets
out of it and all kinds of weird shit yeah well
i thought some tribes did some tribes did do
do the scalping, but not all tribes, from what
I understood. Some did do the scalping, largely
in retribution towards scalp hunting. So from
my understanding, Native American scalps were
sold in European markets to rich people. So it
was a trade. Let's put it that way. Yeah. Yeah.
It's a very weird problem, kind of like eating
mummies back in the day. Yeah, I remember that.
Would you like your hat made out of beaver skin?
Or we also have Native American. American hair.
Yeah. You'll be the talk of the town in Paris.
So, real weird, I mean, for a modern audience,
very strange. Well, yeah. We can't even really
relate because we weren't there. No, we're not
there. Weird times. It's a cultural norm. I mean,
like I say. Like, for this class of people, killing
people was like a normal course of life. And
they were in jail multiple times and somehow
got off for murder charges. Because if you didn't
have an eyewitness that would testify, you're
pretty much, you know, free to go. Right? Well,
it's almost like, and I don't know, I mean, I've
been reading a lot about piracy, the golden age
of piracy. And a lot of it was kind of like,
it's a huge problem, yada yada. And certain country
leaders, kings or what have you, would offer
letters of remark basically saying, you can go
and hunt our enemies. We don't give a fuck. And
you'll be protected by us. So, you know, if you
were at war with Spain, you'd offer a letter
of remark to all the pirates. And they were suddenly
not pirates anymore. And they were now your,
I don't know, an extension of your military.
They were privateers. They were called privateers.
And it's almost the same at the Wild West because
all of these people were lawmen at some point.
Not all of them, in a sense, but they were all
kind of like competing factions of law. And the
law wasn't one solid, unified entity. It was
very much the our county is better than your
county or our state is better than your state
or what have you. And we like these people, so
we're going to give them sanction and not you
and blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, some
of these people acted with the authority as if
everybody. Everybody supported their actions
when really only a small faction did. But if
it was the right faction, then it didn't matter.
So it was very much like, I guess the equivalent
would be kind of gangland violence in a sense.
Very much so. And the cowboys, as I say, one
of the very, very early examples of organized
crime in the Western United States. And they
had sheriffs and judges and U .S. marshals all
on their side, let's say. Sure. In this battle.
Yes. And they were involved in killings of lawmen,
both accidental and on purpose. Yeah. And Ringo
was, you know, and like a fucking sheriff's deputy
could have walked by and shot him and just covered
it up. We don't know. Yeah, I mean, almost anybody
could have. And, you know, I mean, it could have
been that he shot himself too. I mean, that could
have been. I mean, there's definitely some weird
shit, right? He could have shot himself. A lot
of powder burns is a problem. Somebody else could
have come by and taken a piece of his hair, skull,
whatever. Easily somebody could have walked by.
and cut a piece of his scalp off and walked away
and not set it away. Yeah, I guess, like, for
me, it's kind of like, at what proximity was
the shot to his head, right? Not close enough
to burn his skin. Well, then that's a huge issue.
Because if... I mean, that's the issue. Not close
enough to burn his skin. From what I've seen
or heard or read, like, if you're going to kill
yourself and you're serious about it, it's either,
you know, you're fucking gagging on the barrel
in your mouth or it's, you know, pressed pretty
hard against your temple. So there is no way
that he shot himself in the forehead with a black
powder pistol without having serious burns. Yeah.
I mean, I've shot like shotguns at night. There's
quite a bit of flame coming out the end of that.
Oh yeah. And a black powder gun is more so. And
that's modern powder. Yeah. That's not black
powder. Yeah. With a modern load and all that,
not a hand -packed black powder cartridge and
a fucking shitty ass pistol. Yeah. Like, yeah,
there's going to be burns everywhere. Like, yeah.
Yes. So. Very interesting. Like I say, I didn't
know that there was controversy about it until
we watched Tombstone, my wife and I did. Oh,
sure. Yeah. Sarah had never seen Tombstone and
she had no idea who any of these characters were.
And I'm like, well, I know who these guys are.
Yeah. I need to rewatch me some Tombstone for
sure. But I have heard that people have misquoted,
I'll be your huckleberry. And what the actual
quote is, is I'll be your hucklebearer. Oh. we
go which means i'll carry your casket more or
less right yeah and well in tombstone it was
insinuated that big nose kate was banging johnny
ringo but it wasn't explicit yeah you know the
good guys were the good guys and the bad guys
are the bad guys well they have that particular
in that particular movie we can't have any ambiguity
right the star trek episode where they're at
the okay corral the erps were the bad guys in
that episode and i really respected that because
that was within spitting distance of Wyatt Earp's
lifetime. And his wife, Josephine Baker, she
lived until the 40s. So she was like recent Hollywood,
you know, like there were people who were working
on that show that probably knew her personally.
Oh, I'm sure. You know what I mean? Because they
were big into Hollywood and that's why we know
who Wyatt Earp and the OK Corral and all that.
That's why it's the stories because he was involved
with the early era of movies. To the victor go
the spoils. Exactly. Exactly. I'm going to say
my favorite conspiracy theory about this, which
apparently isn't even one except I just invented
it now, is that Big Nose Kate fucking killed
this dude. That's my theory. And I'm sticking
to it. I don't even know if Big Nose Kate's ever
been accused of killing anybody. Well, I think
she's got one. I'm going to chalk up one in her
column. There we go. Oh, my God. Yeah, there
we go. Big nose Kate. And she, I mean, there's
pictures of her. And she, I mean, she does have
a moderately large nose, I guess. Yeah. So, interesting.
I mean, it doesn't look that big to me. Her sister's
nose is way bigger. Okay. Yeah, there we go.
Yeah. I still think it was her. I think she was
the culprit, I think, of this whole thing. I'm
not saying she was wrong. I'm just saying I think
she's the guilty party. There we go. I rated
the cigar a 2. It wasn't offensive, but it wasn't
great. It wasn't, I don't know, a 2. 2. It's
a 2. What about you, Mike? I am not going to
be that generous. I am not going to be that generous.
I am going to go 1 .5. It's not offensive. Oh,
I put it on the wrong line. You did put it in
the wrong line. 1 .5. What do you do? Big nose
Kate will get anybody excited. There we go. he
was a lucky man that johnny ringo yeah yeah big
nose well uh you know later in life she married
a blacksmith and quote -unquote worked several
mining camps okay okay it's like jesus christ
right yeah i don't uh don't envy that do not
envy that but always interesting yes indeed Yes.
I will in the future have something sort of similar
to this, but not exactly this. Well, it does
pertain to some conspiracies, but not as fully
as ingrained in these conspiracies as this. I
like this one. This was fun, Mike. This was fun.
Yeah, I thought so too. And plus it's... A well
-known historical figure in the United States.
And it doesn't really matter who killed him because
we know he was, you know, he died at 32. He was
a gunfighter who gives a shit. Like, there's
no political repercussions because some random
scumbag got killed or killed himself or whatever.
Which is the attitude at the time, even. You
know, like, he's a piece of shit. Well, for sure.
Yeah, you get 12 people together and you're like,
yeah, he's dead. Cool. Thanks. He's dead. He
was shot in the head. There we go. Bury him.
Get him out of here. So. Cattle are safe for
a little bit. There we are. There we are. All
right. Well. As always, thanks for listening.
If you follow us on Instagram, give us a like.
If you don't follow us on Instagram, please give
us a follow. Give us a follow on Facebook. You
can like us on Facebook. Give us a like or a
review would be great on any one of the platforms
that podcasts are found. We also have a Patreon
where probably good portions of this episode
will be found under our spice rack. Thanks for
listening. Be safe. Have fun.