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Welcome to Nice Ashes, I'm Nate. And I'm Mike. What are we smoking today, Nate? We are smoking

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a Cohiba Macassar. It's the Cohiba with the silver label. Yes, Mike told me, hey, we're

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smoking the Cohiba Silver. And I was frantically rummaging through my show humidor, well, both

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of my show humidor's now because I think Mike has a cigar problem. And I didn't see when

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that was the silver, but I did see this one that was silver. So here we are. I bought

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more cigars today too. So there we go. Not a sweet cap. So a nice change from the backers.

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I would call this a Toro size. Yeah, this one's a good size. Sometimes it says on the

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outer wrapper. And we have Google the show going on. I decided I don't care. All right,

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here we are. We're going to light this bad boy up. We are again, both in the same recording

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space in Nate's studio, AKA his garage. We are, we are. So for the first time listeners,

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this is a second time experience. Yes. The draw is significantly harder. Yeah. It's a

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bigger and girthier though as well. Significantly bigger and significantly girthier. Also, I

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can already tell this is going to be a better cigar from the light. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't

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taste anything like a backer. So it's got to be good. Right. This is pleasant. Front

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of the cigar. Very nice. I'm looking forward to it. It's the first good cigar we've had

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on this show for at least a month. So, all right. So just when you thought, Hey, they

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put out dune part two, these two fuckers can't be talking about any more dune. Can they?

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Well guess again, we can and we will, and we shall. And we are, we're going to talk

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about the dune prequel trilogy. Well, one of many prequel stories, let's say, oh, that

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was referenced directly in the last two, maybe three dune books of the eight in the main

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storyline, which is the Butlerian Jihad trilogy, the machine crusade and battle of Koran. We

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are doing one episode per book. So we are just doing the Butlerian Jihad book. Yes.

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And this is written by Brian Herbert and Kevin Spacey, I think. Oh geez. No, it is writing

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partner. Okay. Kevin J. Anderson. Brian's writing partner. Brian is the son of Frank

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and Brian and Kevin wrote the last two dune books in the eight book main dune storyline.

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And I liked the last two books in the main dune storyline. Big spoiler alert. I did not

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like this book. It took me a long time to read because in the middle of it, I got so

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bored. I decided to read two or three other books and then come back to it. That's not

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necessarily surprising. It is their first foray into writing a book that was not expressly

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storylined by Frank Herbert, which both of these authors did have authored books outside

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of the dune universe and they've even worked together on other collaborations. But this

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was their first dune collaboration that they were writing alone and it shows. It's almost

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700 pages long. Yes. I think my print edition capped out around 640 and then it had a little

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bit of a preview of the next book, right? You know, it's the older print books. I don't

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know if the new print books still do that where they give you the first chapter of the

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following book or not. I haven't bought a new book in a long time. Who knows? I took

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notes though. I took notes though. I actually took now, you know, in the dune books, they

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before each chapter, they've got a little, little quote on the top of the chapter page

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from someone in the dune universe. And so in the first dune book, they're all not all

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of them, but a lot of them are from princess Irlen who you don't even meet till the very

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end of the first dune book. Some are from people I don't know that even meet in the

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first dune book. You know, people that are just kind of figures throughout the dune lore

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and history. But this one towards the end of the butlerian jihad struck me as an succinct

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way to describe this actual first book, the book that this thing is in. The butlerian

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jihad arose from such from just such stupidity. An infant was killed. The bereaved mother

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struck out at the non-human machinery that had caused the sentence of death. Soon the

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violence was in the hands of the extended mob and became known as a jihad. Primero,

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a faken butler, memoirs of the jihad. And this basically sums up my feelings of this

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whole book that it was pretty much stupid. There's a lot of things that just fit together

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a little too well. It reads like a fan fiction, not like a novel.

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It reads like they're trying to rewrite the first dune, but make it a machine thing. So

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I guess let's kind of sum up the plot line of this. And then we can, we'll go through

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some of my notes and you can offer points and counterpoints and we can talk about other

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things in the book. But this follows, I don't know, four or five different people. Serena

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is one. Xavier Harkonnen is one. Vorian Atreides is one. There's Salim Fremen. Salim Wormwriter.

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Soon to be a Fremen. And then there's the slave boss. I can't remember his name though.

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Iblis? Yeah, Iblis Ginjo. Okay. And then also of course Erasmus, the counterpart to Omnius.

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Yes. And then it follows some Titans, which are human brains in jars in mech suits. Yes.

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And it has the sorceress of Rassac. Yep. And Tio Holtzman, Norman Senva, and Aurelius Venport.

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Yes. And all of these people, spoiler. I got 12 people. This is a spoiler. Basically all

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these people stirred all the things that are known in the, like somehow magically all these

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people are alive at exactly the same time interacting with each other. Yeah, like a

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thousand years before the events of dune. Like 10,000 years before. Is it 10,000? Yeah,

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it's supposed to be 10,000 years before the events of dune. And they are all alive at

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the same time interacting with each other. That doesn't even seem right. I mean, 10,000

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years is a long time, even though I know that the main dune storyline jumped that far, but

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things were quite drastically different. And the stuff in this one aren't that different

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other than they don't have the Holtzman engines yet, which I'm sure they'll get to because

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at the end of this book, they had just started to install the Holtzman shields and the personal

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portable shields, which we know from dune that the slow knife can penetrate, but the

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quick blade can't. Yes. But so anyway, I mean, that's about it, right? So Serena Butler ends

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up getting herself captured by the machines and Erasmus for some reason, no reason other

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really than the story needed to do something for plot purposes decides that he likes Serena

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and wants to keep her as his special little house slave and likes her sass and feels like

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she has vim and vinegar in her or something. And then you have Xavier, her lover, and you

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have Voryna Trades, who is a trustee of the robots. And so he's actually working for the

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robots. And you've got Salim, who's not connected to anybody. And he's on Arrakis, but because

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it's a dune book, so you have to have somebody on Arrakis. Right. And you have Ishmael who's

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again not related to any of them. No, and he's there, but he was like stolen from a

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different planet. And yeah, Ishmael. And then there's one other one. And those two boys

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were briefly working for Tier Holtzman, but then they got relegated to doing a giant mosaic

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in a canyon for reasons. And then Iblis is a crew captain, slave captain, something or

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other building these giant monuments and shit. Yeah, he's like a foreman. To the Titans.

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Yeah, he's a foreman or a superintendent. Like why the fuck? Slave boss. Why does God

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need a starship? Why do Titans need? It doesn't. Why does a thousand year old Titan need a

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statue of himself on a planet that only has robots and slaves? No one knows. These things

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will likely never be answered. Is that enough of a kind of a summation? I mean, there's

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like more specifics about we'll get into later. I just by and large, the main thing is the

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machines, the thinking machines have kind of routed the humans. They've taken control

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of Earth. They've taken control of a lot of other planets in the synchronized worlds.

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There's an update ship that travels around duplicating Omnius on all the different places

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so that they're kind of more or less in sync. The humans are trying to strike back and not

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be overrun by the machines because they know the machines are coming. Something to make

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note of is that when the machines invade Gidi Prime, I don't know, it was Seleucus Secundus

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when they hit it. The first time in 100 years that the machines had made an attack. There

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was kind of a detente. There was a detente and the machines decided to, well, the exact

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reason was that Omnius lost a bet against one of the Titans, which was great. I don't

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know if it was a bet. They did those battles. They did those arena battles. It was an arena

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battle. It was a prize for the Titan to be able to go and attack a planet or some shit.

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Okay. So here are my notes. I don't know. In one of the first few chapters, Xavier Harkonnen

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and Serena Butler go out on a pig hunt and they kill a pig who I dubbed Pumba and then

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they make love because why wouldn't you? Like the corpse of the pig is still there.

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And they're in a swamp.

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And they're in a swamp. Maybe mosquitoes don't exist. I don't know. And then Serena's revealed

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that you're pregnant when machines take her to earth. And I feel the only reason she was

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pregnant is because Jessica was pregnant in the first Dune book and it's basically a longer

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and more boring version of the first Dune book.

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Yes. Well.

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And of course I know now, because I wrote these notes as I was reading these chapters,

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I know now that the inciting incident was throwing a baby off a roof, although Michael

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Jackson or whatever, not that he threw it, but dangled it for sure. But it just seemed

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very bizarre. Like, okay, I've gone hunting after I kill something. I don't really feel

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like banging because there's just so much work to do after you kill it. You have to

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like gut it and drag it and whatever.

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I'm certainly not banging in the swamp next to the dead animal.

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No, not even in the future when this is supposedly taking place.

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Right. Swamps are still swamps. The animals are still dead animals.

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Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. So that was kind of bizarre to me. And then so Serena

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basically goes outside. She's, what's her father's name? Mannion. Mannion Butler is

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like the big chief diplomat on whatever the fuck planet.

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Solusus Secundus.

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Is it Solusus Secundus? And she's his daughter, obviously. And she is, I don't know, fancying

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herself a student Senate candidate or something. And so she has made addresses to the governing

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body and she decides that because she banged Xavier Harkonnen, who is like the leader of

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the fleet, now who he went and defended some other planet against the thinking machines

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and they use this gas and so he can't smell or taste things, which he only bitches about

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for the first third of the book. And then later on they're like, oh, and he smelled

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that or whatever the fuck. Like they don't, I don't know that that's even an important

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thing. So why include it other than you need to have a 600 page book for fuck's sake. You

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can't have a nice brisk 200, 300 page book. You have to have three 600 page books or whatever

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they all end up being because I'm Frank's son, God damn it. I got something to live

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up to even though Frank wrote some really short books. Oh yes. Which were great. Fantastic.

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So she decides to not go through the official process and bring a band of rebels, all of

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Rogue One into steal the planets or the Death Star. Now set up some shields or something

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on this other planet. I can't remember now. Gidey Prime. Gidey Prime. All right. So it

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doesn't fucking matter. All these planets that have names, they're all the same planets

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that are in the original Dune and all the names are all the people that you have in

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the same Dune. So they're. Which is weird because after 10,000 years. After 10,000 years.

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It's not going to be the same thing. You would think that they wouldn't be the same people

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on the exact same planets doing exactly the same things to an extent. Yeah. But anyways,

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she goes there and she ends up getting herself captured. The rest of the crew on her ship,

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surprise surprise, is killed. She's the only survivor on the little ship trying to get

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out, but she bled a little bit on the ship, which is very important. Uh, cause we're going

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to do some CSI bullshit. Actually, just kidding. Xavier doesn't give a fuck. He found blood

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that matches her. So then seven months after Serena dies, he's married to her little sister

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Okta. As you do. Which is fucking. Okay. As you do. I guess as you do. So, uh, but so she

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is captured, but why take her to earth anyway? Because the capturing machines didn't know

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who she was. They had no idea who she was. They could have just shot her and been like

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done. She was conveniently the last rebel left and Omnius wanted one of the rebels.

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I think the true reason is, uh, the plot has to advance and you can't kill Serena then

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because the other stuff has happened later. That might be true. Okay. And then, so the

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next thing is why, why even keep humans as slave labor? They have watch eyes just floating

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around and you can't tell me that all the watch eyes are sentient thinking machines.

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So this is the wild part. They tried to address that right away in the book. Okay. And they

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just let it go. Yeah. Just gone. Yeah. It like came in and why do you have slaves that

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are humans when machines can do everything and they let it go. Yep. And then, uh, well

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I've read that I've read the future. So I can't say too much. We're trying just to talk

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about this one. So yeah. So like why keep them as slavery as labor? Like the machines

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can do all that stuff. Erasmus wants to experiment on the humans to understand the humans, you

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know, and his big thing is he wants to do it in order to understand the humans so that

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they can more thoroughly defeat them in the future, I guess. But Erasmus is also cartoon

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villain, like tearing people apart and using their blood to make paintings. Yes. But then

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also he's like the nice one. Yes. He's also the nice one. So it's kind of, you know, if

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they would have just picked, and I think in the main storyline Erasmus is very much different

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than he is here. Yes. And I'm sure there's things that lead to that, but you know, it's

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not like it's like either make him the moody teenager or moody, like early twenties, something

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person who's experimenting, trying to find their way and then don't make him patient

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with Serena's backtalk and shit and giving in to her demands. Like you should throw a

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big banquet for all the slaves and they will totally love you for that. And then he's like,

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that sounds like a good idea. Let me just not invite the ones I'm tearing limb from

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limb in my lab and we'll do these other ones and we'll feed them real good. And then I'm

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going to go watch them fucking the mudpens and separate twins and do experiments on them.

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You know, I don't know. I just didn't seem consistent. But anyway, but so the other thing

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I wrote is like, there's no reason to keep such a large number alive on other planets.

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Like you don't need to have large like slave populations to run experiments. You simply

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don't need that number. No. And this was good. They mentioned the Omnius that took over Gidea

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prime died before it could be updated. So the other Omnius machine didn't know what

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the Gidea prime Omnius did, but that Omnius is the one that sent out 5,000 ships into

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deep space to seed Omnius on planets explicitly that cannot inhabit human life. Yeah. And

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that is how Omnius shows back up in the regular Dune universe. Yeah. The regular Dune timeline.

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The problem is, is that if it's true, there's no reason for, well, I know there's 27 Dune

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books. So it, yeah, I understand that. I'm just, I haven't read all the other ones. Yeah.

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I'm just trying to talk about this one, but yeah, you know, there's reasons.

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And the thing is, is that, so if the machines don't need worlds that have humans,

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then why wouldn't they just hang out on planets that don't have humans? Or, you know, kill all

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the humans and go on or not even worry about what the humans are doing. Like who gives a fuck?

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Why would they give a fuck? That's what I mean. There's no reason for them to care.

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Yeah. Okay. And then the next one was, you know, seven months after Serena dies,

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Xavier Mary's Octa, who he was never even attracted to to begin with, according to the book. And she

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was like the awkward like 10 year old or, I don't know, I'm sure she's older than that.

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17. I think she was 17. Okay. I am 16 going on 17.

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She was psychologically damaged. Let's put it that way.

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Yeah. So was their mom. Anyway, and then this other one, I don't even remember who was playing

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this fucking thing. I put our ballast. That's the only instrument in the Dune universe. Cause

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somebody else is playing a ballast. Yes. Yes. Like you don't have a piano. You don't have a harp.

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You don't have like a trumpet. I thought the same thing. You're in future space. You have a new

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instrument, but it's 10,000 years old by the time that we, it's a ballast. That's a ballast.

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Like surprise. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not even, it's not even in the way like in the Star Trek

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movies, like the original ones with the Chantner where, you know, uh, McCoy is like, Oh yeah,

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I know you like antiques. Like here's an antique from 200 years ago or something. It's a pair of

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reading glasses. Cause I know you won't get the surgery, you know, like that's explainable. That's

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200 years. This is like 10,000 years. It's a ballast set. I mean, I guess we're still playing

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violins and stuff, but that's not 10,000 years in the past. They had like, I don't even know what

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they had 10,000 years ago for instruments, rocks and sticks, cave drums. The hurdy-gurdy is a great

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example because there's a handful of people that play the hurdy-gurdy on the earth. And that used

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to be the most popular instrument around and, uh, everybody's heard hurdy-gurdy music. Yeah. That

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wasn't 10,000 years ago though. No, that was like 500 years ago or whatever the heck. So

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another brief thing. Uh, okay. So then it, then the other thing was, now we're going to talk about

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Tio Holtzman a little bit. Had a lot of issues with Tio and I just want to get through my notes and

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then we'll get into some of the other, other bigger issues or these are just kind of the things I was

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reading. I'm like, what the actual fuck? He's supposed to be Thomas Edison. Like what the fuck?

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Like I get that. I mean, you know, but, but some of the stuff I was just kind of reading, I'm like,

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what? Okay. So if Tio Holtzman can quickly double check the work of the slaves, cause he won't use

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thinking machines, but he'll use slaves to do all of his mathematics for him, like run all of his

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formulas, like just use a, just use a calculator man, but he won't do it. But if he can easily

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go back and check the work, cause he actually brought the in a Ishmael and the other, the other

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boy and was like, are you trying to purposely like sabotage? Like you put this comma here? Well,

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if you can easily pick out one misplaced comma in stacks of paperwork of. Mathematic equations.

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Why don't you just, why have the slaves even do the labor? Just do it yourself. Like, and I understand

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why, cause he's like a playboy, flamboyant, like Elon Musk kind of person. Like he likes to make

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disparaging remarks on Twitter and the internet and then take the credit for all the good things.

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But like, why even do that? Why even have them? Like he's, he's, he's seen to be so egotistical.

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He wants to have the next big thing, the next big invention, because he had one invention and

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everybody was like, oh, he's the hero of the savior of humanity. And then he wants another one. He

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wants the next one, but he won't do any of the work, you know? And it's like, why, why even have

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the slaves then if they're going to sabotage things and make you look like a dummy? Yeah.

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For the same reason that he has Norma there, he wants his harem of workers to create things

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so he can take the credit. Yeah. But Norma actually knows what she's doing. So why not just find more

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Norma's and not have slaves? Cause you have the reputation. So you could get any math whiz anywhere

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and you wouldn't have to have slaves at all. Slaves who can't read maybe. I mean, the one guy was

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at Ishmael, the one that was like floating around the swamp, trying to catch fish and his grand

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pappy was telling stories or something. Like why even bring that person, somebody like that? Like

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what you have to teach them to read and you have to teach them how to do math. And then you have to

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just trust that they like you enough because they're not working in the rice fields or wherever the

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they were working before the oyster flats or whatever they were planting clams or something.

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They were like oyster rice field, rice paddy things. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, why even, why even have

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that? You know, there was so much like the first dune book, there's so much not said, but it didn't

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detract from the story at all. You know what I mean? Like he didn't, he didn't bother to explain.

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Oh, okay. So you know what, uh, Paul and Chani, they were fighting for 10 years. Uh, and then this

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happened and let's keep going. He didn't write out the full 10 years that happened. I don't need to

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know that Ishmael was planting clams in a mud flat or something. Right. It doesn't really matter.

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It was next scene. Now this child who was one year old is now. Yeah. I can make that leap with

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you, Frank. Let's do this. Our leap is, oh yeah. Now this character is older. Wait people age.

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What the fuck? Uh, okay. And then the, and that's, uh, this was after this is after Xavier

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is fucking married to Octa. There's chapter upon chapter of Xavier pining for Serena. It's just,

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it's just terrible, terrible writing and boring. It's terrible. It's like high school. Like she was

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the one. I know they're trying to make it more drastic when they reunite them later, but we know

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that they're not fucking dead. We know she's not dead. This was written in 2002 and it was a trope

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of that era that you had to have some love story involvement. All the media, including movies,

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everything had to have love story involvement for the ladies. Oh yeah. Like there's lots of ladies

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reading. So speaking about ladies, it leads right into my next point. My next note here from the

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book, the Serena birth stuff, especially sounds exactly like two men writing about what they think

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the female perspective on birth is. Like it sounded exactly like two dudes sitting there like, bro,

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bro, I'm Brian, you know, I'm Frank's son, Kevin. We wrote a lot of books together.

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What do you think women think about birth? Should we ask one? No, Brian. No, come on.

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We gotta give another writing credit out. No, no, we can figure this stuff out. Let's just pretend

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we're trying to take a big old poop. So I I'm looking it up right now. Both of these guys are,

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were married at the time of writing this one for 13 years and the other one for, I'm gonna have to

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do some math here. He was, he was married in 1967. So a long time and he had multiple children.

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Why do math when you can get a bunch of slaves to do the math for you? That's right. That's right.

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So 35 years, they could have asked, they could have had the ladies to get involved and give

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them a writing credit. Yeah. Well, if they did, they ignored all of that and just wrote what they

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felt because it was, it was cringe worthy. Straight from the heart, Nate. Okay. Maybe.

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It was terrible. I will say it again. It does read a lot like a fan fiction. A lot like a fan

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fiction. It does. It does. When I was reading that chat about her giving birth, I was like,

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are these two incels that have decided they want to have a woman character give birth

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and they're trying to describe it now and they're like, well, let me go ask my waifu pillow or my

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my little pony fuck doll. Like if I impregnated you pony, a pony princess, what would that be like?

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Listen, Nate, secretly in the background, Snape and Hermione were banging. Hell yeah. Hermione,

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what's that feel like? Oh, it's, uh, there's some pressured stuff, but then like, I don't like

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Erasmus has all of his watch eyes here and oh, I don't know. Okay. So this is a big, a big criticism

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for me that, I don't know if that chapter is even worse than like the Xavier, like I'm married to

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like the hot younger sister who's younger and I can like, she'll be younger longer than Serena would

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be. And I only gave Serena seven months because that's plenty of time. Like even if she was

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captured by machines and transported who knows where in the fucking galaxy and it takes months

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and months to get from one place to another place. Cause we don't have Tio Holtzman's fold space

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engines yet, but, uh, seven months should be good. Should be good. That should be plenty of time.

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There was some blood from Serena. There's totally blood from Serena on the ship. So she's got to be

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dead. Uh, blood always equals death. Uh, you know, um, uh, but fuck, I love Serena, but I don't know.

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I guess like here's her younger sister and you know what I mean? It is kind of like that. I hate

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to say it. I know it's like dumb and I'm the dummy that's read all 27 dune books. Well, and you know,

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you telling me that this is the first one they did like not on autopilot, you know, like that storyboard

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and storyline, whatever that makes sense. Hopefully this next one's better. I'm still going to read

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the next two, at least the next one. If the next one is the same level as this one, I'm probably

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not going to read the third one, but I have both the next two. So we'll come back to it. But yeah,

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this one was not impressive. Uh, okay. So the next one here is basically of the 640 page book,

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even if you call it, let's be generous and call it a 700 page book, nothing fucking happens with

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the first 500 pages. Like there's, you know, I mean, there's some backstory stuff, but nothing

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that's 500 pages worthy. I could have one chapter on each of the main characters and then make the

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stuff happen. And then stuff happens. It starts to get exciting after 500 pages. And then they're

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like, Hey, instead of building on this excitement we've just created, let's have them all go back to

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Segunda, Solosis or wherever the fuck salsa is made in New York city. And let's have them go debate

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things in front of fucking Congress. And it's like, just, just sign the, I don't do the Frank Herbert.

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They signed the war declaration and now they're flying through space. I don't need to have them

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questioning for tradies and the slave leader guy. And like, we don't need the whole backstory. We

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just read 500 pages of that shit. Like, I don't need them winning over other people. Like it should

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be enough. Hey, we're here. We got a story to tell you next chapter. The fleet leaves and is going

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to go obliterate the machines. Yeah. The pacing, the pacing was like a Disney, a modern Disney.

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Yeah. Yeah. Like, well, we have to keep them in their seats for a little bit longer to sell two

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more Coca-Cola's at the movie theater. Yeah. Except it's a book. You want to get your,

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except it's a book. Okay. So the, they come back and they do their, Mr. Smith goes to Washington

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and they get everybody to sign off on using these atomics that are ancient. Now, I guess they have

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these ancient atomics, half-lives, am I right? And they're going to go and just nuke the shit out of

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earth. And they're like, well, we shouldn't really do that. Cause that's where we're all came from.

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And blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, Serena's like, well, there's nobody there. Like the machines

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wiped out everything because Erasmus threw an 11 month old baby manion from Serena off of a roof

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because he let it live 11 months, even though he was insanely jealous of it. First day it was born,

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basically. Like there was a chapter where he's like, well, I can't believe I've let Serena keep

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this baby for two months. Now this thing is taking, taking, you know, her attention off of me and what

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I want to accomplish with my stuff. And then he's like, nine months later, I'm just going to,

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you know what? I'm just going to grab it right now. 11 months later or nine months later,

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it's 11, it's 11 months old and I'm just going to go. Now I'm just going to fling it off their

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fucking roof because I also have this crazy bet. And I've been trying to get the slaves to revolt

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against Omnius because I told him I need to keep the humans, but cause Omnius wants to kill the

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humans. But if I prove to him that the humans can't be trusted, then he's going to want to kill all

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the humans. And it's like, dude, I don't care about your catch 22. Like it's fabricated. Like

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it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. And then like, why just, oh, oh, she went

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into the forbidden thing and saw the humans being torn apart that she had to have known. She's been

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there for at least a year, you know, because she's been pregnant. The, let's say eight, nine month

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gestation 11 months after that. So she's been there, I don't know, let's just say two years,

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year and a half, year and a half, year and a half, whatever, you know, you can't tell me you're a

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house slave. You don't know there's a secret wing of the, of the house where he's tearing people

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asunder. Yeah. Nobody, nobody, uh, nobody told her. You would just know eventually you'd have to,

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you would find enough things like you like as smart as they make Serena out to be in the beginning,

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400 pages of the book, right? She's going to find out or going to assume that it's some pretty

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gnarly shit going on. You would think so. He's not just keeping them in their slave pens to watch

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them frolic around the maypole. Right. Like Jesus. So then that happens. And then she physically

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overpowers a thinking machine and pushes it off the roof and beats her fists against Erasmus.

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And that causes him great fear and he flees. And the Iblis slave leader guy sees that.

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We haven't even talked about cognit or alco or whatever the fuck the bubbling brain in the jar.

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Yeah. The God, there's like brain jar people. Yeah. Uh, they injected Voryan Atreides with some kind

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of, uh, Borg synthetic nanobots or something to extend his life and make him healthy. Yes.

333
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Right. And that was like, that was like the next step. And then he was going to

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eventually become a Titan, I guess, like his father age, man, a gun, a man who, who,

335
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nahana. Yes. I read it. You listened. Similar to the Agamemnon in the Iliad.

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I know him well. Yes. Even if I read the Iliad, which I haven't, I would still pronounce it the

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same way because I'm reading and not listening to somebody else pronounce it for me. If I would have

338
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read it, I would have known only because I've read the Iliad. So all of the, all of these names are

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throwbacks to like mythology too. So Ajax and, uh, Juno, Juco, Barbarossa, Zertzis. Yeah. Jack Sparrow

340
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was there too. And, uh, so there, I mean, there's a lot of things and there's so many characters.

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And I think that's maybe the biggest failing point is there's so many characters that it took

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me at least half of the book to, there was a, there was a chapter where I don't know if it was

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Ajax or Agamemnon, my egg on your face or whatever was like tearing apart one of the other like slave

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bosses. And it, I had to flip back in the book to be like, wait, is this the same one that we've

345
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been following? And it was a completely different one, but it had a similar ish name, the similar

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like length name and stuff. And I was like, I can't fucking remember. Like we're following

347
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these little boys that were stolen from their planets and this worm rider guy. And we're

348
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following, you know, five or six different like nobles. And then we've got Tio and Norma and

349
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we've got the Rosac witches and, and, uh, what's his name? Who gets the drugs from the jungle?

350
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This is why it is a fan fiction because unlike in Dune, there's a lot of people and a lot of

351
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characters is very complex, but it's a slow build. You don't start getting this massive complexity

352
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until 2000, 3000 pages in you're on the third or fourth book. And now it's, now it's making sense.

353
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Makes sense. The first book is standalone fine as it is, you know, you don't need to know really

354
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princess Irlyn. No, you don't need to know her whole backstory. You don't need to know,

355
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you kind of know the houses and there's more great houses than the Harkonnens and the Atreides,

356
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but you know, those are the two that are feuding and fighting. And you know, there's also the

357
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emperor, right. And that, and then his faction, and those are kind of really the factions you're

358
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concerned about. And you've got the, the spacing guild and you've got some of these other players

359
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where they're not as prevalent as these three main factions. So it's a lot easier to keep track of

360
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because you can say, Hey, we've got Lado Atreides, the Duke, we've got Paul Atreides, and we've got

361
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Jessica and those are the Atreides. And then you've got, you know, Baron, the Baron Harkonnen,

362
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and you've got, you know, so it's very easy to keep track of because they only give you three,

363
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you know, two or three names from each of these houses, even though there's more people and they

364
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kind of come in and out. But then as soon as they say, Hey, we've got, you know, Fade Harkonnens

365
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coming in, like, Oh shit, a Harkonnen. Like you don't need to know exactly Fade's backstory. You

366
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don't need to know all of that stuff. You can keep it in your mind. And in this one, there's 27

367
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different characters you're kind of following and the chapters are very short. So you're not even

368
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:34,000
with them in a big stretch long enough for their names to even endear themselves on your memory.

369
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,640
Like reading this book. So in the original Dune, you're aware that there's the great and minor

370
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,200
houses that tells you there's a lot. That's all you really need to know. That's all you need to know

371
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:49,440
at that time. You don't learn about these individual characters until they're necessary to be focused

372
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,640
on. Yes. And then the last thing I wrote down was because they decided to grab all these

373
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,680
atomics and they didn't even make, they're just from the past. So they have, they stockpile all

374
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,320
these atomics and it said in there that they had threatened the machines that they were going to

375
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,720
use atomics and the machines somehow knew that they would never use atomics. So they were kind

376
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,760
of like, uh, let's just use the atomics then they'll never see that coming. And sure as shit,

377
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,160
they fucking didn't. But here's my question. The thinking machines were made by humans.

378
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,480
Humans know how to make atomics. Would the robots just not make a bunch of atomics themselves?

379
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,800
And they could launch them from even further away and fucking just blurt it all humans. Like it

380
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,920
doesn't even make any sense. That's the problem. That's the real problem is that we all know that

381
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,560
the machines can live on planets that humans cannot. So why wouldn't they just make every human

382
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,600
inhabited planet uninhabitable or better yet, just stop interacting with the humans and go about

383
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,000
their business and inhabit planets that humans can't go on. Yeah. Cause they fucking will live

384
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:51,200
forever provided they go in for their tuneups and regular software updates and stuff. So they could

385
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,720
travel to some part of space that humans would never even get to. And if they're not in the

386
00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:00,800
picture, the humans have no reason to invent a Holtzman fold space engine. Basically, you know,

387
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,240
and so they would never, the humans would never get there unless they wanted to say,

388
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,240
okay, we're into the math. And so that we don't have any inbreeding. We're going to put X number

389
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,000
of people on here that are not related. They can have kids and those kids can marry those kids and

390
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,240
it can marry those kids. So we can have a 10,000 year space voyage and still have, you know,

391
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,640
functioning humans on the, on the other end of it. And that would be the only way for that to happen.

392
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,720
But then those humans would be so far removed from the machine stuff, thinking machine revolt

393
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,600
or whatever it was that it wouldn't even matter. You know, they would land there and they go,

394
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,440
oh my goodness, look, these machines are sentient and they must be their own thing. And that's so

395
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,880
cool. And the machines wouldn't even have to fill them in on the history. They could just say, hey,

396
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,200
cool. Uh, this is our place. Uh, why don't you go over there? We're just going to pump up the

397
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,800
carbon dioxide in this atmosphere here. So go fuck off. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't even

398
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:50,560
have to come down to a fight. No, it's completely unnecessary. Yeah. And as a machine, I'm thinking

399
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:58,000
machine programmed by a human, you know, even the desire for conquest. Okay. Yeah. Didn't they,

400
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,960
didn't they read any Isaac Asimov, like the three laws of robotics? I mean, put, build those into

401
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,960
your programming. You don't have a thinking machine revolt, even though Isaac Asimov wrote

402
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,440
plenty of thinking machine revolt books. Right. And then the other thing, and I didn't write this

403
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:18,800
down, but I'm just thinking of it now is Iblis fondled, uh, Cognitor Alco's brain folds. Let's

404
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,920
suck his hand right in the jar there so that the brain could like communicate with him.

405
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:27,280
Cause that's totally how brain communication works, I guess. And the brain thing told him that he

406
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,120
needed to make this into some kind of religious thing. So he was the first one to bandy about the

407
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:39,120
term jihad. Like, Oh my goodness. Uh, Serena pushed a robot off the roof after her baby was

408
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:44,800
dropped off the roof and, uh, it's a jihad. And he was like, Oh yeah, great. I was able to work in

409
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,920
that religious bit. You know, it was almost like a, like a snarky aside to the reader. Like I was

410
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:55,280
able to work in that religious bit. Why not have the fucking sorceress of Rosach put that spin on

411
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,920
it since she's obviously the start of the Benedicess. Yes and no. Yes. Well, I mean,

412
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:04,240
you know, just the way this book is written, it might be different, but she's doing the weird

413
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:09,920
shit and the truth sayer stuff, right? She's doing truth. They have magic powers and nowhere,

414
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,880
maybe this trilogy is different, but nowhere else in the new universe as a man outside of Paul have

415
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:21,840
like Benedicess or powers. You know what I mean? Yes. So why would Iblis the slave leader guy want

416
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,480
to put a spin on it other than he just wants to overthrow the machines because he's been a slave

417
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:32,320
of theirs for a long time. Like thematically would make more sense to me if the Rosach sorceress

418
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:40,880
that was married to the jungle juice guy. And I kind of wish that there was more Aurelius,

419
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:46,720
Venport and Norma stuff because that I actually enjoyed that stuff because the mom hated Norma

420
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:52,240
because she's diminutive in stature, not like a Greek goddess, I guess. So she's like, Oh,

421
00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:56,640
all your math stuff is dumb because I got the mind powers, you know, like I've got the mind powers

422
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:02,000
and you look terrible. And then, you know, Aurelius, Venport was very intelligent. Yeah.

423
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:07,040
And Aurelius, Venport was very sweet with her and nice. And I wish there was more of that in the

424
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:12,080
five, in the 600, 700 pages or whatever. There is, there is, okay. Yeah, there isn't a future. So,

425
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,880
you know, I just, I feel like, and then to call this one the Butlerian Jihad, I shit you not.

426
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:22,400
I thought there was going to be more than like 20 pages of Jihading in, in this book. Right. You

427
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:28,080
know, I don't know what to tell you. It's the origin story to the Jihad, man. I know, but the next one's not even called,

428
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:35,440
you know, Jihad part two, Jihad harder. Jiharder? Yeah. I don't know. The next one's called the

429
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:42,640
Machine Crusade. So it is related to the theme. Well, understandable. Understandable. Yeah. Yeah.

430
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,280
Yeah. It is a trilogy. So I would hope. I would hope so. Okay. Say the first one is kind of like

431
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:53,120
a fan fiction. Now I'm going through it again. It is, it is, it's a bad fan fiction. It's, you know,

432
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:59,920
secretly Snape and Hermione. I know. It's, you know what? There were certainly a few books in the,

433
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:05,600
in the main eight that I liked less than the other ones. I wouldn't say that any of the other ones

434
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,800
provoked the same like irritation in me as this one has. This is my least favorite Dune book I've

435
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,480
ever read. Number seven, best seller. Yeah. It's, I mean, you know, the pacing, I think there's way too

436
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,240
many characters. Way too many characters. They did not need to have the Salim Worm Rider story could

437
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:27,840
have been brought in never. Yeah. Or much shorter. Like they're just trying to tie it back in because

438
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:34,560
he's the one that's discovering now worm riding. And then what? 10,000 years later, it's like,

439
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:41,760
it's still secret somehow 10,000 years later and Spice and where Spice comes from, which is fine,

440
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:47,040
I guess. But then he's like, oh, oh, oh, oh. And then there's that fucking bounty hunter guy who

441
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,440
takes all the slaves and he gets like high off of Spice. And then he goes and finds Aurelius

442
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,640
Venport for some reason, because of course they know each other and they have to because the

443
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,600
book's got a plot, move the storyline along. And so he brings a bunch of Spice to Aurelius Venport.

444
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,000
Who's like, this shit's tasty as fuck. And it does really good things. I don't have to go

445
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,240
into the jungle for it. I can go get like the local population to give me a bunch of this stuff.

446
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:13,920
And so he's going to start like the big Malay production stuff so that, because you need that,

447
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,320
you have to, you have to do that plot reasons, right? Because Tio Holtzman is going to

448
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,880
invent, well Tio's not, but he's going to take care of it for inventing the Foldspace engines.

449
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,440
But you can't navigate Foldspace unless you're high off your ass on Spice. So you also have to

450
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,240
have the Spice people figure out the Spice stuff. And that's the only reason that you have these

451
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:36,960
other things going on in this book. It's almost like every major institution of the Dune world

452
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:43,120
somehow magically was all involved in this war. In these like two years of this, like what's going

453
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:49,120
on. Yeah. Every major faction all knew each other 10,000 years before they knew each other.

454
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:55,120
Yep. And the only reason Sorino was taken back to earth is so that she could meet Vorian Atreides,

455
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,760
because there's no other way for an Atreides to meet a Harkonnen, I guess, in those times.

456
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:06,480
And have her baby thrown off a roof so that she can wail upon a robot and have some other dude

457
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:12,320
that's not an Atreides or a Harkonnen see that and put the label Jihad on it to get the Atreides and

458
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:18,400
Harkonnens to work together so that they can later become sworn mortal enemies. Yes. For reasons.

459
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:23,360
Yes. For reasons. And the Korinos are in there too. We just don't know yet. So the emperor's

460
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,160
family, like you say, every major player. Well, the last book is called The Battle for Korin,

461
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,480
and I have to imagine that's where the Korinos are from. I'm no linguist,

462
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,280
but I know what Korino is. It's quite a coincidence.

463
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:45,280
It is. And an even bigger coincidence than the whole of this book, the Korinos live on Korin.

464
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:53,520
Something like that. Yeah, it's weird that, you know, the machines attacked Gidi Prime,

465
00:38:53,520 --> 00:39:01,520
the homeland of the Harkonnens. Yeah. Weird. They throw out planet names like Kaladan and all these

466
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:08,400
Arrakis. Yeah. They got to throw it in. They got to throw a lot of techno, techno babble. Yeah.

467
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:13,440
Well, it wasn't. So remind me, and I can't remember now because it's been a while since I've

468
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:21,600
read the first original Dune book and the last, you know, Dune movies aren't book accurate,

469
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:28,160
let's say. So was Dune used to be called Dune and is now called Arrakis or was then,

470
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:33,120
was used to be called Arrakis and now called Dune in the Dune, in like the main, like Paul Dune.

471
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,960
In the main books, it was called Arrakis by the Empire, but it was called Dune by the Fremen.

472
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:44,880
Okay. And then later on in the main Dune timeline, it's just called Arrakis and they drop the A.

473
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,520
So it's just Arrakis. Right. Well, unlike in the Balerian Jihad.

474
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,600
Where everything maintains the same name for 10,000 years in the main Dune timeline,

475
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:59,120
they actually show the verbal shift. Yeah. Everything is shifted over time. It changes

476
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:04,400
over time. And they even forget about the characters by the end of the original Dune timeline.

477
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,120
They have largely forgotten about the characters in the original storyline.

478
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,720
Yes. Until like the last two books where they bring a lot of those people back through Tlaxu

479
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:21,520
tanks. Yes. Yeah. There's an excuse for the OGs to come back. Yeah. To whoop some ass.

480
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:28,320
Yep. To rehash their differences. Yes. And to close out, close the loop on some of those family

481
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:35,360
feuds, let's say. Kind of. I mean, a lot of it's, I liked that in the original Dune timeline.

482
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,280
It made sense. They brought them back. It kind of made sense. They're like, one of them has to have

483
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:47,200
information or if we can restore their Golan memories, one of them has to know how we can

484
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:54,560
defeat Omnius basically. And it made sense. And it was kind of rewarding for the reader who's

485
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,840
read through all eight books. Because you're like, oh, I wonder if this character and that

486
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:06,480
character would have lived, how would they have reconciled, like the Jessica and the Sukh doctor.

487
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:12,640
How would they have reconciled the events of what happened and this and that? So. Yes. And Yui. Yui.

488
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:18,080
Yep. Yeah. Yui repeats himself. Yes. Some things are nature, not nurture, I guess. Whoa.

489
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:27,200
Whoa. Mind blown like I'm on space, bro. We have a lot of cigar left and it is, we're about half

490
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,800
through, halfway through, and it is significantly better. I am so happy, I have no idea how this has

491
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:39,840
been a long time coming. Yes. Quite tasty, quite tasty so far. We're going to keep going. I know

492
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:46,160
we have to talk about Tio and Norma. Who's that fucker? Blood? Blewd? Bard? Blood. Yeah. Okay.

493
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:52,320
It's Count Blood. Captain Blood. Yeah. Again, it's almost fan fictiony, right? It's like

494
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:58,160
Count Blood or Duke Blood is Duke Blood. Yep. Who happens to be having slaves make a gigantic

495
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:02,800
mosaic of himself on the side of a moat. Yeah, just like the fucking machine titans making giant

496
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,680
statues on earth where they only have human slaves. There's not like free humans wandering around like,

497
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,480
I wonder who Titan Ajax. Oh, there's a giant statue. Must be somebody of importance.

498
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,880
No, they all know those titans because they're all getting fucking killed by them. Yes. You don't

499
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:21,440
need a statue. He's right there behind you. Pretty heavy-handed with the, oh, humans are just as bad

500
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:27,040
as the machines. They're kind of exactly the same because they are. But thank goodness, only the

501
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,920
humans on make atomics and machines who can perform mathematical calculations without slave labor.

502
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:37,120
I have no idea how to do it. Wizard magic. Man, I tell you what. They don't have any wizards

503
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:44,080
where they do have sorceresses. Yep. Yep. Poor Norma when she put the sorting head on,

504
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:51,520
didn't get to go to Hufflepuff. Yep. I'm going to guess that Norma is going to take some spice.

505
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:59,920
I fucking would if I had to put up with Tio all day long. I'd take anything I could. Yeah,

506
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:07,040
so Tio and Norma. A gallon of engine coolant. It is the classic tale of a guy invented something

507
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:12,320
good, couldn't follow it up. Got into a slump. Got into a slump. And then found a writing partner

508
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:20,960
named Kevin and put out this book. Oh, sorry. Yes. Sorry, Brian, if you're listening, but also not

509
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,920
sorry. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully you've grown from here. I'm sure Brian Herbert is going to be listening.

510
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:33,040
Multi-time bestselling author, Brian Herbert. I'm sure he doesn't care. Yeah, he's not going to care

511
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:38,160
that we criticize him. I am certain he's going to cry all the way to the bank. Yeah. Wiping his

512
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:47,200
tears with Benny's. Yeah, a hundred dollar bills. So yeah, it's. Yeah, so Tio finds, I don't even

513
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:54,400
remember how he fucking found Norma, but like a letter shows up and then evil mom sorceress tries

514
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,840
to hide the letter. Classic tale, classic tale. And then he Disney Hallmark movie, you know, like,

515
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:06,480
oh yeah, your letter to Hogwarts. No, that never showed up. Oh, I will stew tonight, by the way.

516
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,720
Here's the here's something that I don't appreciate. So Van Port's the one that sent the

517
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:16,480
letter because he runs a big industrial corporation and Tio Holtzman's like, oh, this is some pretty

518
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:22,560
fancy math. So he sends a letter back and then the evil mother hides it. And then Van Port finds the

519
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:28,160
letter and then lets Norma know. And then she leaves. Thing is that this mother who's a magic

520
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:34,400
user of some variety. Yeah, she just shits on her daughter because she's also not magical. However,

521
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,480
it's obvious to everyone and it should be pretty obvious to her because she's not stupid.

522
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,760
She's magical in her own way. Yeah, no, she's like clearly very intelligent and maybe should be

523
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:50,320
doing that and not what she's doing and not doing like naked jungle seances with magical women.

524
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:55,040
Yeah, not not not not creating kamikaze pilots. Yeah, I mean, I'm down for whatever if it's like

525
00:44:55,040 --> 00:45:00,240
naked jungle women, but yeah, the long story short on the sorceress is that they are kamikaze pilots.

526
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:05,280
Yeah, they they they had and I kind of criticized Mlink 182 and they came out with a song called

527
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,240
edging and they're all, you know, 40, 50 years old. I'm like, I don't really need to hear

528
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:16,400
songs by people of that age talking about edging or, you know, teenage sexual things. But basically

529
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:23,920
this jungle sorceress woman is teaching her jungle sorceress followers to edge their pent up mental

530
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:31,200
energy so they don't obliterate themselves every night, but they can do a big one when it counts.

531
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:37,280
Yes, they set up psychic energy and kill the cymax, which are brain canister, gel circuitry

532
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:42,480
things. Yeah. Yes. Because there's certain things in this book that will fry the gel circuitry,

533
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,640
which works against the thinking machines. And then there's other things that will kill

534
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:52,560
the brain canisters, which also have gel circuitry, which is why I guess in that first one,

535
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:57,360
uh, they had shields that would kill gel circuitry, but they dropped the brain canisters in with the

536
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,280
gel circuitry powered off or something. And then they could, once they were through the shield,

537
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,560
they could reactivate or boot up. I don't know. Something like that. Um, run the command prompt.

538
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:13,040
I don't know. And then destroy or they send in something that wasn't gel circuitry to disable

539
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,320
the shields and then they could drop in the rest of it. Like it's all so confusing. Like

540
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,400
there's a lot of techno babble. I mean, there's a lot of stuff and there's a lot of characters

541
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:26,000
and it just makes for a not very concise story. And you're out. I mean, I didn't spend too much

542
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:31,520
time worrying about this technology can stop this part of the thinking machines, but it won't stop

543
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,600
that other part. And then this one can or can't because that's really kind of supliferous. It

544
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:41,520
doesn't matter, you know, right. And I don't need to know, but the original dune story, the whole of

545
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:47,280
Paul's jihad is summed up in a couple of words. It's not, it's not super detailed. There's detailed

546
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:53,200
elements of it, but it's not. Yeah. No babble. And there's, and there's, it's more detail when

547
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:59,520
the Furman come back and they're kind of have their wartime PTSD. And they're talking about,

548
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:05,440
I saw planets entirely covered in water and it was magical. And I wept and you know, and we're

549
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,200
obliterating, obliterating these people and this and that and the other thing, but it wasn't so much

550
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,960
like, okay, well we got to this planet and this planet had these kinds of shields and we had to

551
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,480
figure out how to get these kinds of shields. And so we just decided to do this with their shields.

552
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,160
And then we got there and then we tried to launch all this gas within this gas causes person to lose

553
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,760
their sense of sight or smell and taste, but he could still breathe. Okay. And they did some kind

554
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:28,480
of like lung transplant with the Tlaxu because the Tlaxu are also there in this book for some

555
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:33,440
reason, because why wouldn't they be, why wouldn't you have the Tlaxu, the starting of the, uh,

556
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:39,760
men of Jesuit, you have the Furman worm rider guy who is kind of fucking around on his own. And

557
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:45,360
you've got Norma and Teo and the Harkonnens and the Atreides and none of these names have changed.

558
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,480
And you go back 200 years, 300 years, and, uh, my family's last name was not what it is now,

559
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:55,040
because we changed it when we came over to America. And, but by God, 10,000 years in the

560
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,280
Dune universe and nobody changed anything. Right. But it's somehow magically in the future,

561
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,120
shit changes. Well, yeah. And the main Dune storyline. So it would have been better to be

562
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:09,200
like, oh yeah, we've got the, um, the Atreides and the Harks or something. And then whatever,

563
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,200
you know, I don't know where you could make up any name, the Johnsons and the Johnsons later

564
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:18,960
became the Harkonnens. I, whatever. Who cares? It could be anything. Atreus and, uh, yeah. If

565
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:24,240
you're going to, if you're going to be goofy about things, why not make it make sense? I guess.

566
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:29,120
Right. You would think so. I was a little surprised that the one, um, what's the one, uh,

567
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:35,600
the female Titan Jade? Juno. Juno. She was the one played by Elliot Page, right? Yes. Yeah. When

568
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:41,840
the Cog, is it Cognitor? Cognitor? Elko? Cogitor. The Elko guy? I think it was Cogitor. The Elko

569
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:47,200
brain in a jar, the canned brain in a jar, but the good one, the Elko one. Yeah. The good ones.

570
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,920
But then also he had his like monk guy who was supposed to take over the slave rebellion and

571
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:57,840
then just fucking died because they invited Juno to come and fondle Elko's brain. And instead of

572
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:04,480
doing that, she just squished him. So I don't like it. Like you can be so brief about that kind of

573
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:10,480
stuff, but then you can write 400 pages about how Xavier is really butthurt that he had to marry a

574
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:15,520
16 year old instead of a 20 year old. Right. And he's a 20 year old who's in charge of an entire

575
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:21,280
battle fleet, which. Yeah. Why wouldn't he marry the 16 year old? That happens in anime. That's not.

576
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,440
Yeah. Like I said, this is like two incels sat down and then like, okay, I guess we have to do

577
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,840
this chapter on Serena giving birth. What's that going to be like? And it's terrible. Yeah. Yeah.

578
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,520
And why are the, why are family politics that far in the future still the way they were in like

579
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,240
medieval Europe? That's the, that's the real question because the whole Dune premise, these

580
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:45,520
families and it's kind of a medieval or feudal society was that they had degenerated in many

581
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:51,920
ways. That was dangerous to their survival. Yeah. But so these people should be probably more

582
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:57,440
advanced than the original Dune storyline, not less advanced or the same. That's the kind of the

583
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:02,720
concept was that that people had stagnated and had degenerated through their stagnation. And that

584
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:09,280
was the golden path was to get them out of this degenerative negative cycle. Yeah. Warring with

585
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:15,520
each other and the petty little things. And now you're presenting like a unified human front. And

586
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,640
I thought for sure, I thought for sure, and I was, I was a little glad that this didn't happen,

587
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,720
but I thought for sure that when Serena was brought to earth and then Erasus was like,

588
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:31,040
I should introduce Serena Butler to Voryan Atreides for literally no reason other than the plot of the

589
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:37,920
book needs to do this for reasons. Of course, I thought for sure the start of the Harkonnen Atreides

590
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:44,800
feud was going to be that Voryan like did something terrible to Serena and Xavier got mad. And then

591
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,640
that was like the start of their beef. Of course, there's still two books where that could happen.

592
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:54,240
So I don't know. I'm not going to ruin it for you. But Xavier's married to the teenager now. Oh,

593
00:50:54,240 --> 00:51:01,680
and also, also seven months after Serena disappears, he marries Octa. Serena has Xavier's

594
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,640
baby, whom she names Mannion after her father, who's then thrown off the roof. She goes back to

595
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:13,200
Segunda Seleucis Salsatown and Mike's just glaring at me like this fucking guy. I am not glaring.

596
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:20,480
This fucking guy. I think it's fucking great. It goes back and Octa brings out their new daughter,

597
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:25,520
who's itty bitty. So it's like not only and then but then it's like, so okay, so you've got all

598
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:31,200
these chapters of Xavier like, oh, Serena, my Serena. He goes back to the fucking swamp where

599
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:37,440
they killed Pumba. And he's like, oh, the best night of my life. She's gone, but I have to go

600
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:43,600
home and bang Octa. I can't believe my luck. Fuck. And he makes a baby with her. Right.

601
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:49,040
And then he's like, oh, Serena's back. And how am I going to tell her? And oh, here's my little

602
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:54,080
Mannion who I didn't even bother to wait for Serena to show me. Her fucking dad took me out

603
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:58,320
here and here's my little baby boy dad. And then I'm not even going to fucking warn Serena at all.

604
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,680
And Octa's just going to come down with my offspring. Not even going to warn her. Who gives a

605
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:06,240
fuck? Like what? You've been pining for her for 500 pages. You're not even going to give her the

606
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:11,680
common decency of like, okay, now look. And he was there and he got back to the same town she was in

607
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,440
and he waited like a whole day. And then it's like, ah, I'm going to bother. I'll just bother her

608
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,600
tomorrow, Mannion. Like I don't need to go bother her now. She's been through enough. You don't

609
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,240
think she needs a heads up? Like, Hey, I'm married to your sister and I have a baby with her. You

610
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:29,040
don't think she deserves like a heads up? One of the major themes, and they did this fairly well,

611
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:35,280
was that the machines are not that much different than the people ruling that society. They're

612
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:40,000
pretty much the same exact group. Just one's machine and one's not. They're, there's neither

613
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:45,360
one are better than the other. Yeah, I guess. There's more than two bad people in the world.

614
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,800
I understand that. I understand. There's more than one bad person in the world.

615
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,680
Whoever you may think that is. I want some taco chip ice cream. Yeah. If you want to hear about

616
00:52:53,680 --> 00:53:04,080
two bad people, check out this year's election for president. Anyway, I don't know. I feel though that

617
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:09,280
even if you can have everybody being bad, you have to have somebody being kind of good. And I know

618
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:13,840
they want that to be Serena, but then she kind of went all introspective in the city of introspection

619
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:19,760
where they have, I don't know, Starbucks on every corner and they've got a boots and they've got a

620
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:24,320
Coles right there. A city introspection. It's not a bad place to be, you know, at least not in the

621
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:29,840
doing universe. Yeah. Yeah. It's very bizarre. I, yeah, I, I don't know. And they didn't, I wanted

622
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:34,720
them to explain more and maybe they will because there's some kind of weird story with Mannion and

623
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:40,240
Serena's mom. Serena's mom is just like, I just live at the city of introspection. The brother,

624
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:49,280
the brother died or the son died of a disease. And then, you know, his sister became

625
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:57,120
psychologically deranged and the other one was, yes, Okta. And then Serena was somehow not affected.

626
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:02,320
Yeah, but Okta's got that mad psych ward pussy grip, you know. I know, right? That's why Xavier's all like,

627
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:08,160
hell yeah. It's intense. Yeah. He cries all day long about how much he loves Serena and then bangs Okta

628
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:13,920
all night long. Yeah. Yeah. Busy man. Busy, busy man. Also, well leading the entirety of humanity's

629
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:18,320
resistance to the thinking machines. At 24 or whatever it is. But he's got time for that,

630
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:22,800
all this stuff. Right. Well, they promoted him straight up from Lieutenant to General. So. Yeah.

631
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,120
But they don't use Lieutenant in general. It's like DeSero and Segundo. It's, it's full of

632
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:32,880
techno babble. It's, it's the worst kind of, gosh, I can't believe I'm saying this about Dune. It's

633
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:38,640
the worst kind of sci-fi and I've read a lot of sci-fi folks. Man, I read, I read a heavy sci-fi

634
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:45,680
and it was very complex with the sciency stuff. There was some kind of like, I don't know,

635
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:53,920
hive mind or some kind of like thing. And it was very complex and confusing to read about. But the

636
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:58,960
underlying story of the actors and the characters and things within this story, it all made sense.

637
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:04,960
And it was very good. A Fire Upon the Deep by Victor Verne. Verne. It's a trilogy. I've got the

638
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:09,760
other two books. I haven't, I have to read them all again, but I really enjoyed it. It was very,

639
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:14,240
a lot of the stuff was like over my head and I'd have to read it again and probably again to kind

640
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:20,080
of get a grasp on what it means by some of these concepts that it put forth. So I'm not opposed to

641
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:25,840
heavy sci-fi, but like you said, the techno babble and it's almost for the sake of techno babble.

642
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:26,800
It reminds me of-

643
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,200
You know, just call it general then.

644
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,560
A slow episode of Star Trek, next gen.

645
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:32,880
Yeah.

646
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:37,200
Where they'll, somebody will come in, Jordy will come in and he'll say a sentence and it'll all be

647
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,680
all techno babble. And everybody will be like, oh yes.

648
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,160
Yeah. Make it, shoot the protons faster.

649
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:42,640
Yep.

650
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:43,840
Makes sense. Let's do it.

651
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:48,240
Yeah. It'll be like that, but it'll, that's only a sentence and then they move on.

652
00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:48,480
Yeah.

653
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,360
And then they'll talk about some drama with the teenagers.

654
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:58,720
Yeah. And this is, and this one is probably, I feel, and did they do the wrap up to the main

655
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:02,720
Dune storyline and then immediately do this one or did they do some of the house books?

656
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:04,160
They went immediately to this one.

657
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:08,560
Okay. So I feel like this one was, hey, we successfully wrapped up that big thing

658
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,880
that Frank started. I really liked it. And now we've got a fucking blank check

659
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:17,200
and we're just going to do techno babble for 500 pages. And then the main like stuff that

660
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:22,640
actually happens is going to take up 200 pages of our book. It could just be a 200 page book

661
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:27,520
or we could just do the entirety and just call the book, but later in Jihad, but put the other

662
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:32,480
next two all in one book and not have three books. I know three books makes you more money in the

663
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:38,560
long run than one book, but the Dune Messiah was like 50 pages long or something. And it

664
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:40,640
made Frank plenty of money. You know, so.

665
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:42,560
It was very short. It was very short.

666
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:47,760
It was like, I call that one the prologue to Dune or the, not the prologue, but the.

667
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:48,320
Epilogue.

668
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,920
The epilogue to Dune. Like it could have just been in Dune, in the Dune book.

669
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:53,600
Like there wouldn't have been a problem.

670
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:54,560
It easily could have been in Children of Dune.

671
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,840
Well, yeah, or that, or it could have been the first bit of Children of Dune. Like there

672
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:03,200
doesn't have to be that book. Like it's short enough. It could easily go on either way. It

673
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:08,480
could either go in Dune or Children of Dune. And that's what they did with the mini series anyway

674
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,480
on, was it Sci-Fi Channel?

675
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,080
I have yet to watch it. I have it in my possession, but I've yet to watch it.

676
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,400
I've seen the Dune mini series, which is fantastic, I think. I have to watch it again now that I've

677
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:22,160
seen all this other Dune stuff and read all the Dune, but you know, that's what they did.

678
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,160
They, they bumped in Dune Messiah into Children of Dune and did it all in one.

679
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:32,640
So there's, I mean, there's a precedent within the Dune book verse where they could have not

680
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,680
made a 700 page book with 500 pages of fluff.

681
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:40,480
Right. And I've read other, I've read Frank Herbert books that are not in the Dune universe.

682
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:47,520
And a lot of them are kind of almost alternative stories that could have happened earlier than

683
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:54,000
this, like early exploration of space type books. They'll have some of the same terminology and

684
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,640
they'll do kind of the similar things. So.

685
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:02,160
I feel like he was very well informed on the things he's interested in. You know what I mean?

686
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,720
Well, he's a reporter by trade. He was a reporter.

687
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,160
Yeah. That's how he fed his family until Dune came on.

688
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,560
Yeah. And the automotive book company published it.

689
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,040
And an automotive book company published it. Yeah.

690
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:14,800
One of the greatest publishing stories ever.

691
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:19,120
J.K. Rowling had a similar story. She got denied by a bunch of book companies.

692
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:26,000
I think a lot of big authors got denied. I think that's the thing. And maybe that's societal now

693
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,360
because we've got all the social media and everybody's famous all the time or, you know,

694
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:33,200
the people that have a lot of followers, but nobody ever goes back to be like, what were they

695
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:36,320
like when they were, didn't have followers struggling and what were they thinking? And

696
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:37,840
you only see the good stuff. Right.

697
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,200
You only see the successes. You don't see the struggles.

698
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:46,160
Yeah. The never ending failure, which if you're, let's say Harry Potter or Dune,

699
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:51,440
it was radically different enough to where a publisher that was going to be conservative

700
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,400
about their money was not going to make the investment.

701
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:55,600
Yeah. Not going to take a chance.

702
00:58:55,600 --> 00:59:00,800
So it took a certain amount of vision and risk taking to put it out there and it succeeded.

703
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:05,280
It succeeded. So you want to fix your Ford F-150, we got you covered. You want to read

704
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:10,960
this crazy thing about this dude taking copious amounts of drugs in space. Guess what? We got you

705
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:17,360
covered. It was literally, it's like a hillbilly. Well, it was like Chilton, Chilton, the Chilton

706
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:22,560
manuals. It's one of the big, the big publishers of automotive repair. Like if you want to know

707
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:27,440
how to fix your car, you buy a Chilton manual. They happened to get to the head of this company

708
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:32,480
who's like a manual producer, very nuts and bolts. He read, he's like, this is a good story.

709
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:36,000
I don't care if it makes money or not. We're going to make tons of money on the Ford manual

710
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,000
next year. It's fine. Yeah. Ford's coming out with a new car next year. Surprise, surprise.

711
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,880
The 83. They're coming out with the 83. I'll publish Dune too. Why not? Let's do it.

712
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:50,240
Yep. No matter. I like it. We already got the print, the printing thing. It makes the pages

713
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:53,760
in the book. It makes it right back there. You want to come take a look at it? Worst case

714
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:57,520
scenario, we'll give it free to the Dodge owners because you know they're going to buy it. Yeah.

715
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:03,200
They got to have something to read while they're waiting for the tow truck. It's kind of like that.

716
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:10,800
Yeah. We'll just put it in the, uh, the farm and fleet store right next to the truck manuals.

717
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:13,360
That way they have something to read. Yeah.

718
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,640
It basically was that. And it worked. Take drags and fix your car. We don't care what you do.

719
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:26,560
It's free country. Oh, I love that argument too. I've had that argument so many times with,

720
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:31,840
especially the rah rah America people like if anybody doesn't stand up and hold their hand to

721
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,440
their heart and say the pledge of allegiance or blah blah blah, I'm going to kick their ass. It's

722
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:39,680
like America's free country. Suck my dick. You can't tell me what to do. Yes. Like I don't know.

723
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:45,200
And my favorite thing is those people that tell you, you need to stand up, hold your hand on

724
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:49,360
your heart when they're singing the national anthem are generally wearing an American flag

725
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:54,880
t-shirt. Now kneeling or sitting during the national anthem is not against the United States

726
01:00:54,880 --> 01:01:00,320
flag code. Wearing the United States flag is an article of clothing or on a sticker looking at

727
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,560
you. United States postal service with your American flag stamps is explicitly against the

728
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:10,240
United States flag code. So you've got flag code violators getting upset that non-flag code violators

729
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:14,480
are violating what they think is the United States flag code when they themselves are the

730
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:20,320
violators. That's what gets you off and what sets me off. They're wearing some American flag shirt

731
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:25,920
with made in China. My son's a soldier. And they're wearing a t-shirt made in communist China by a

732
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:31,600
fucking slave. You know what I mean? It's like, come on now. It's an eight year old child. If it

733
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:36,160
wasn't for that corporation, that eight year old child would not have a job and they'd be hungry

734
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:40,880
on the streets. They would not be forced into labor. They could be playing in the street and

735
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:49,680
get in the way of your escalade. I saw driving down the road the other day. Somebody had a Trump

736
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:56,080
sticker and then the fascist flag and some other conservative talking point type things. And it was

737
01:01:56,080 --> 01:02:01,760
on a communist made Buick. One of the imports. Nice. All right. So you love America so much.

738
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:08,240
You imported a Buick from communist China. Have you seen the new, I just saw one the other day

739
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:12,640
and I thought, man, if I wasn't driving, I would take a picture of this for Mike. This is the,

740
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:21,600
how to announce that you can taste the actual nutsack of the authoritarian regime in America.

741
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:26,400
It was the black and white American flag. You know, some of you might be thinking, oh yeah,

742
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:31,840
the thin blue line one, the one with the blue line. This one twice ups that it has a thin blue line,

743
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:38,080
a red line and a green line. Well, it didn't have the army green line. Didn't have the yellow.

744
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:43,360
No. So they have the conservative pride. I call it the conservative pride. And instead of the white,

745
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:49,840
it'll have red, green, blue, yellow, and some other. I remember all the colors, but it's

746
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:56,080
certainly not pink. Yeah. I think it's, yeah, it's not pink. It's a first responders, firemen, police

747
01:02:56,080 --> 01:03:01,680
and military, whatever, you know, all this other stuff, which in and of itself I'm okay with.

748
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:05,680
Totally against the flag code though. Totally against the flag code though. And I think a lot

749
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:12,560
of times it's a dog whistle for other political movements. Well, it's all virtue signaling is

750
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:17,360
what it is. It is virtue signaling. And it's the same with the Black Lives Matter yard signs.

751
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:22,880
And the, I don't know, even the George Orwell was right yard signs, you know, like any of those

752
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:27,760
kinds of political yard signs. I mean, there's a reason I don't have yard signs. I don't want

753
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,600
to be associated with anything. I don't want people, especially where I live, you know,

754
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:36,720
in one of the suburbs, I don't want people to be like, Oh, that house is a Trump supporter or a

755
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:42,240
Biden supporter or a Black Lives Matter supporter or a, you know, free Israel supporter or any,

756
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:47,040
you know, like I don't need people to know what my thing is. Right? Like if people want to know

757
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:51,120
what my beliefs are, I want them to come and just talk to me. Like I'll tell you, I don't have a

758
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:56,000
problem telling you, I don't need to advertise it for the sake of sticking in people's gah or

759
01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:01,520
whatever, whatever. Oh, sure. I mean, like it's signaling. I, the other day being yesterday, I

760
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:07,520
believe I drove through the old neighborhood where the rioters destroyed all the buildings.

761
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:13,600
Man, I was going to talk to you about that. So I drove through, it is so roped off. I may have a massive,

762
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:20,880
massive, like, used Carlott sale size Black Lives Matter flag flying directly next to the

763
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:27,680
rubble pile of all the buildings that were burned. I drove, I drove right by Cup Foods. Oh sure.

764
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:35,840
So I was doing this thing. It was independent bookstore day, a couple weeks ago, and there was

765
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:40,560
a book passport. And if you visited, there's 28 bookstores, if you visited all 28, you would

766
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:44,720
be entered into a grand prize drawing. If you visited 15 of them, you'd be entered into a minor

767
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:51,280
prize. I managed to hit all 28, didn't win, but I have 28, 20% off coupons at 28 different bookstores

768
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:55,360
now until the end of August, which is great. And some of these bookstores are great. And some of

769
01:04:55,360 --> 01:05:01,680
them are, you know, your standard bookstore where it's like, you're marginally better, the same as

770
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:06,240
the Barnes and Noble. Sure. You know, some, some, some specialize in different things. So it was

771
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:10,720
really cool. I went to one that was really awesome, the Birchwood, and it's a Native American

772
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:15,680
bookstore. It's owned by Native Americans and they have a huge Native American author section,

773
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:19,760
which is great because I was looking for one called Never Whistle at Night, which is a compendium or

774
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:26,080
they're not called compendiums, a collection of short, dark fiction stories written by Native

775
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:31,280
American authors. And so I'm very excited to read that one. I bought that one. I didn't buy too many

776
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:37,360
books because at 28 bookstores, if you buy a book at each one, that's, I don't know, $280. Right.

777
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:42,160
You know, if you're just averaging $10 a book, which you wouldn't necessarily be. Anyway,

778
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:50,400
on my expedition, I drove right by Cup Foods where George Floyd was unalived by members of the police

779
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:54,720
force or whatever story you choose to believe about that. There were two big like iron,

780
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:59,680
sheet metal thing, sculptures of the fist, like the Black Lives Matter fist in the middle of the

781
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:04,480
fucking street. And they had like plywood signs with arrows, like go around these. And I'm like,

782
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:10,000
I don't, I don't know how these are here. Like I understand that people are upset. I understand

783
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:15,600
whatever this is a fucking road though. And you're making kind of like quasi roundabouts

784
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:21,360
with these big giant sculptures and the actual area of the road where the thing happened,

785
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:27,120
regardless of what side it's on. It was all like, there's a huge shrine, like a huge shrine,

786
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:32,960
like the entire block. And it was like relegated to almost like one lane traffic to go that way.

787
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:36,480
I didn't go that way because I was just driving through, but I was like, I haven't been down here

788
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:41,520
since before it happened, you know, before that stuff happened. And I, I don't want to say it was

789
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:47,680
like shocking that everything was still there, you know, three, four years later now, but it was kind

790
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:53,920
of shocking that everything was kind of still there. And it was, I have been past there twice.

791
01:06:53,920 --> 01:07:00,160
Okay. Since the incident, both times in winter. And one of those two times there was a significant

792
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:07,040
amount of snow. Yes. And that little shrine basically made a barrier of, you would have to

793
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:11,040
do the Austin powers turn and turn around. There's no way to go through. Like there's just too much

794
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:18,560
snow with all this stuff. It's a public nuisance. If you are a delivery truck driver or a tradesman

795
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:23,120
or somebody trying to just go from A to B, it's impossible. You might as well not have a fucking

796
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:27,360
road. You might as well just cord off the whole road and not have a road there anymore. Yeah.

797
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:32,000
Well, that's the day with Nicolette, right? They made that into a walking path and bus route. And

798
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:37,760
so you can't drive on Nicolette in certain sections of downtown Minneapolis now. So I guess, you know,

799
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:42,560
I understand people are still upset about it, potentially rightfully so. I don't know why

800
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:49,840
they're allowed to drastically alter the roadway that we all pay taxes for, but that's not my place.

801
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:56,320
That's neither here nor there. What I want to know is in the original eight dune books,

802
01:07:56,320 --> 01:08:05,280
Theo Holtzman is seen as almost a Messiah, like a savior of humankind. Yes. And in this book,

803
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:11,040
they seem to be going to great lengths to undermine that. Now this kind of comes back to

804
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:15,200
the whole 10,000 years thing. And we're sure it's 10,000 years between but Larry and Jehan.

805
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:21,200
10,000 years. Nice round number, isn't it? Winky dink, I'm sure. Yes. Oh, hey, I remember there's

806
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:26,880
a 10,000 year jump in the original dune series. Hey, Kevin, write this down 10,000 years before.

807
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:31,680
Why would anyone even remember Theo's name? Because the name of the engines, the Holtzman engine.

808
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:36,080
Yeah. But do you think in 10,000 years, everybody's gonna be like, oh yeah, I remember when Henry Ford

809
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:41,920
like pioneered the assembly line. Wow. 10,000 years Ford Motor Corporation. So we're making the F-150

810
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:49,040
going thunder. Thunder. Yeah. It runs on Brando. Why? Why? It's got electrolytes. It's got

811
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:53,920
electrolytes. It runs on gasoline. It's what Ford's craves. Yeah. Gasoline. Electrolytes.

812
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:59,600
We're gonna be burning gasoline in 10,000 years, boys. Woo. You know, and I get it. They said that

813
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:04,640
part of the golden path is humans have kind of stagnated. They haven't innovated. They haven't

814
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:10,640
done anything of note really. And maybe that's partly because of the spice and they could just

815
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:14,320
do the spice and see things and they wouldn't have to invent things because they could just

816
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:20,560
see all the possibilities and then just pick which one they wanted. But it's curious to me,

817
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:26,000
Tio Holtzman seemed to be fairly revered. And that's not to say that's not true because there

818
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:30,640
are definitely Elon Musk fan people out there that think he's the greatest thing to ever happen. And

819
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:36,080
oh, he's so cheeky for a multi-billionaire and whatever, whatever. And yeah, maybe he's a little

820
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:42,080
more outspoken than Jeff Bezos, but I don't know that you'd say either one of them are a good human

821
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:48,720
being, you know? And so, but maybe that's the point. I don't know. The book is not written well

822
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:53,680
enough for me to think that they're actually trying to make a critique on that. I want to make it

823
01:09:53,680 --> 01:10:01,200
clear. Lord's Bezos and Musk. I personally do not think that you are, I think that you are the best

824
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:08,000
ever. Lord's Musk and Bezos. Please give me money, Lord. Not a sponsor. You contact me about

825
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:14,160
sponsoring our podcast and I will tell you some choice words that are probably not allowed on X

826
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:24,000
because of hate speech. Please. But I can tell you is that if my dad owned a thousand slaves and

827
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:28,560
diamond mines of South Africa during apartheid, pretty sure I'd have a good shot at not being

828
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:36,560
poor. Yeah. Would you buy some founder titles from people? Exactly. Hey Norma, I love those engines

829
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:42,240
you designed. Here's five bucks. You tell everyone I invented that. Yeah, kind of.

830
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:48,880
I mean, like I understand it, but I don't know that I want to give, and not necessarily a slight

831
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:53,520
on Brian and Kevin, because I did enjoy the two they finished of the main Dune timeline. And I

832
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:59,200
know they've written other stuff, but this book is not written that well for me to really get behind

833
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:04,240
the thing of they're trying to make some kind of societal critique with all of the other stuff that

834
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:09,440
they put into that book. Right. You know, like what they did enough cocaine to do like an accurate

835
01:11:09,440 --> 01:11:13,840
critique on wealthy people, but then everything else, they kind of flubbed. They ran out of coke

836
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:20,320
that day or I don't know. It's not quite. I don't know. I'm not, it's not, you know what I mean?

837
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:25,840
It's not the part. It should have been edited heavily. Yes. There's a good book in that. Yeah.

838
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:30,240
There's a good book in there. I mean, it's fine if you can get through it and then you're kind of

839
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:34,560
like my brain can kind of condense it down to the important bits. This is a book that could be turned

840
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:40,880
into a movie and have the movie be better than the book for sure. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, the, the one,

841
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:47,920
the one book movie combo that I know for sure the movie is better is the prestige. The prestige movie

842
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:54,400
is fantastic and phenomenal. And I read the book it was based off of, and the book is told through

843
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:59,680
a series of journal entries. So it's all past tense stuff. So there's nothing exciting that happens

844
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:05,280
because it's all written in past tense. You know what I mean? Like it just, right. It, it, it's

845
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:09,280
after the fact. So you're just kind of like, then this happened, then that happened, and then this

846
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:13,680
happened. And I felt this way and then that happened, but nothing's happening as you're reading it. So

847
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:19,120
it's not really an exciting book. It still has the same stuff. It's just told from a different

848
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:23,360
perspective of a look back instead of it's happening right now in front of us. Was that book written?

849
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:29,440
I know there was a phrase of novels that were written specifically to be adapted to film.

850
01:12:29,440 --> 01:12:35,280
I'm not sure about that. Yeah. There was quite a few novels that were written with films in mind.

851
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:40,800
So they could have based on the book that was big for a while. Yeah. I'm not sure because I feel like

852
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:45,840
the book came out well before the movie. Oh, maybe not then. Because I didn't the prestige come out

853
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:51,360
like 2006 or something around then. Yeah. Maybe somewhere in there somewhere in the, I don't

854
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:55,120
remember when the book came out. Never read it. Never had the desire to read it. Don't worry about it.

855
01:12:55,120 --> 01:13:00,160
No, I'm telling you it's boring. Boring. You lose something when you're not active. You know what I

856
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:07,920
mean? Oh yes. Like reading, I think reading true journals are interesting, right? You mean like the

857
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:13,120
Lewis and Clark Expedition? Uncensored version of Anne Frank. I have not read that. I haven't either,

858
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:18,160
but I've heard what's in the uncensored version that was censored out. Okay. Pretty spicy. Okay.

859
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:25,200
They could make a movie about it in not Hollywood, wink wink. Yeah. And not 2024, double wink, double

860
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:32,400
wink. Yeah. Yeah. In 1974, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. At the same time, I spit on your grave came out,

861
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:36,640
the original one. If you haven't seen that one, it's very uncomfortable, but very good. Yes. Could

862
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:42,240
have Pam Greer in it. Let's put it that way. Could have Pam Greer. So, you know, I mean, I understand

863
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:49,440
that you want to, I don't know, and maybe, and maybe, and maybe, maybe the whole Norma Teo thing

864
01:13:49,440 --> 01:13:54,640
is bothering me. And I like Norma. I like Norma's character. I don't like Teo's character. And maybe

865
01:13:55,440 --> 01:14:02,880
it has a little bit different vibe to it now that we've had the Star Wars sequel trilogy. We've had

866
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:09,280
Indiana Jones four and five. We've had the Terminator 16 and 17. We've had these things where

867
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:15,520
they're kind of going back and tearing down the heroes of the 80s and 90s to supplant it with

868
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:22,320
something new and fresh and more acceptable to modern audiences, heavy quotes. So maybe that's

869
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:29,120
why I'm just not digging it as much because in the original Dune storyline, Teo Holtzman is held up.

870
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:36,000
And I get the whole Edison thing and how he fucked over Tesla and everybody else and was more a

871
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:42,880
business person, let's say, than an actual inventor or great mind. And I get that. But part of me,

872
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:48,640
I guess, is also a little wary about tearing down heroes and things. And I don't know if Teo was

873
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:52,800
really a hero. He was just briefly mentioned, you know, like the Holtzman engines. I don't know if

874
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:57,280
anyone ever mentioned his first name, probably once or twice throughout the eight main books,

875
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:01,040
you know what I mean? But it's not like he was a character. He was dead for 10,000 years or something.

876
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:04,640
Right. You've met Norma in the original Dune timeline.

877
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:05,200
Yeah.

878
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:05,440
Yeah.

879
01:15:05,440 --> 01:15:07,040
Yeah. Which was awesome.

880
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:10,880
Yeah. Yeah. She was in the original Dune timeline for the listener.

881
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:11,520
For reasons.

882
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,960
For reasons. Yeah. We're not going to get into it. I'm sure you picked that up right away.

883
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:15,840
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

884
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:16,480
She's in there.

885
01:15:16,480 --> 01:15:17,280
Yeah. Yeah.

886
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:20,480
So we all, like you say, all the factions are in there.

887
01:15:20,480 --> 01:15:22,240
I'm with you. I'm with you.

888
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:26,400
But that goes back to your point where it's like they just all happened to be here in the two years.

889
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:26,960
Yeah, magically.

890
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:27,920
Time span of this book.

891
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:31,040
Yeah. Oh, they all know each other and work together, magically.

892
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:34,800
Yeah. They were all there at the beginning, which really was the beginning because they

893
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:41,040
like, so what? They, I don't know. I guess I kind of thought that it was going to include

894
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:45,920
the actual thinking machines overthrowing humanity.

895
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:52,960
But that happened hundreds of years ago in this book or a thousand years ago, whatever it was.

896
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:58,640
So it's weird. I don't know. As somebody just kind of reading it now for the first time

897
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:03,040
and not having read the rest of the stuff and then coming back and talking about it on a podcast,

898
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:08,720
just reading this first one, like if you're going to spend 500 pages of setup with 16 different main

899
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:15,760
characters and 37 different factions and techno babble and killing the pig thing and banging in

900
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:22,240
the swamp, which Shrek loves, like that's how he do. But you could, I mean, why not? Why not

901
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:27,280
start with the actual, hey, we invented the first thinking machine and it's fucking AI and it's

902
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:31,120
great and it's awesome. And what, what do you mean? Where are you putting that probe? Stop it.

903
01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:36,640
No, no, now I'm dead. Blah. Hey, thinking machine revolt. And then Frank Herbert covered some of

904
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:43,120
that in his other novels, but they were, they were not due novels. So, you know, I, I guess I feel

905
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:49,120
like there was kind of a big missed opportunity and calling it the Butlerian jihad. There wasn't

906
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:54,080
a whole lot of jihadi going on. I thought it was going to be, I thought it was going to be a lot

907
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:59,040
more, I don't know, when I got about halfway through the book, I was like, we're not even close to

908
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:02,640
having any kind of jihad thing happening or any kind of battles happening or any kind of anything

909
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:07,520
happening. There was a lot of politics, but it wasn't the good dune kind, the wheels within

910
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:13,520
wheels politics. And there wasn't a lot of action. There was a lot of techno babble and, uh, oh,

911
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:19,760
imagine this, that all the, oh, you know, all the people that are starting all these organizations

912
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:24,080
that become important later are all alive together right now. They all know each other.

913
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:30,640
Yeah. Crazy. Which does happen from time to time. Like American Bloomsbury, where you've got,

914
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:36,480
you know, and all the other people and Hawthorne and, but that would happen for a reason, but it

915
01:17:36,480 --> 01:17:41,120
happened in real life. Like it was happening for real life, but it also had a catalyst. Yeah. And

916
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:47,840
it spawned all the stuff that is like American authors. Yeah. Like the height of American

917
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:54,320
literature, the quintessential like bam, here's all the shit. Yep. Melville, everybody. Yes. Yeah.

918
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:58,160
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not saying it won't happen or it doesn't happen,

919
01:17:58,160 --> 01:18:01,840
but in a fictional universe with fictional people and fictional things, it seems a little

920
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:06,560
too convenient to be true. Right. At least at least in the, at least how they wrote it,

921
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:11,840
at least in the American Bloomsbury situation and Concord, the reason why those hippies were there

922
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:16,400
was because there was one rich guy, Emerson paying for everybody. Yeah. Because he married a rich

923
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:22,640
woman and she died. And so he had money. A bully for him. Yep. And he had to go marry the 16 year old.

924
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:31,760
Curse my luck. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. It is like, it's a high end fan fiction. Yeah.

925
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:37,200
I understand. It's an American going to Hogwarts is what it is. Yeah. They want to tie everything in,

926
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:42,960
which is fine. Not super satisfied with how they chose to go about doing it because as far as I

927
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:47,920
know, I feel like Norma is younger than Teo, but they don't really talk about ages too much other

928
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:54,960
than Okta is younger than Serena and Mannion is older than Xavier. You know, they don't talk a

929
01:18:54,960 --> 01:19:01,600
whole lot about the ages. So if it was like Teo Holtzman is 97 years old and suffering from

930
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:07,760
dementia and Norma is there pumping out sweet, sweet ideas and he's trying to play things off

931
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:13,200
and everybody's like, okay, he did the one thing right. And he's a great guy. He found air quotes,

932
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:18,240
found Norma and he's still pumping out sweet stuff, which we know kind of is Norma,

933
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:23,920
but he's got the dementia, you know, and he tried to eat some toilet paper the other day, but we,

934
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:29,440
we sorted him out and he's fine now again. Like that'd be understandable, but it seems like Teo

935
01:19:29,440 --> 01:19:35,280
is kind of in the prime of his life and, and, and trying to follow up his one good thing and, and.

936
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:40,560
Not really working on it. Not working on it, you know, and, and if, if he were older and it was like,

937
01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:46,000
yeah, he had his breakthrough when he was 70 and now he's 90 and, and he's struggling and he wants

938
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:50,080
to still be relevant, but you know, he's not willing to let go of the reins and maybe we could

939
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:54,560
sympathize with him a little bit. Right. Yeah. You know, it could be, oh yeah, this big breakthrough

940
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:59,520
50, you know, he's 70, he's still with it, but he's losing energy. But things are slipping. Yeah,

941
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:04,400
things are slipping. You can't do all the math anymore. You know what I mean? Like I get it. And,

942
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:08,800
and then it would make it make a little more sense. Like we've, wait, we've got all these people,

943
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:14,720
the 27 main characters of Butler and Jihad are all of the same age within 10 years of each other.

944
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:19,040
And they're out there kicking ass and taking names. Don't worry about the coincidence. It's just

945
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:23,440
happening. Just go with it. You know, but if, but you know, like if some of them were like on the

946
01:20:23,440 --> 01:20:29,440
decline, like yeah, okay. You know, Hey, I'm, uh, I'm Ridley Scott and I'm going to make a four hour

947
01:20:29,440 --> 01:20:32,960
long movie. That's terrible, but you're going to like it because I'm Ridley Scott. It's terrible

948
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:37,440
movie. We don't like it. Get it out of here. Stop it. Knock it off. You know, but if Ridley Scott

949
01:20:37,440 --> 01:20:41,200
was like, you know what, I'm just going to produce the movie and then we'll just produce by Ridley

950
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:45,920
Scott directed by somebody you've never heard of. Yeah. I mean, that happens all the time in

951
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:50,960
Hollywood. Like that's more believable. Like, Hey, we've got some people on the way out and we've got

952
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:55,280
some people that are up and coming. Then they can all still be there. You know what I mean? Right.

953
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:59,440
And it makes more sense, uh, to the reader. It makes it, it makes it seem a little more real

954
01:20:59,440 --> 01:21:03,200
because there's an actual motivation. Like what? Tio just wants to go to the next party and get

955
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:08,080
drunk again. I mean, I guess, but he's supposedly in the prime of his life. Yeah. He's not even a sex

956
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:12,240
maniac. That's the weird part. He doesn't, he's like, wants to go to parties and have a good time,

957
01:21:12,240 --> 01:21:16,960
but he's not, he goes back to his lab. Yeah. He's not like a junkie or, you know, he doesn't have

958
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:23,840
like some sort of defining negative trait that would explain his borderline bizarre behavior.

959
01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:29,600
Yeah. Whereas if you were old and, uh, you know, slipping in certain aspects, like he showed up to

960
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:34,640
the lab without pants again. Oh, let's get him, let's get him back to bed. Here's your tapioca

961
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:38,320
pudding. You know, like that would make sense. Like, okay, we can kind of relate to that because

962
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:44,000
we all have that older family member or friend's family member or something. You know, I don't know.

963
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:47,680
I just, that would make it a little bit better and a little bit more like, Oh, all these people

964
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:53,840
happen to be here, you know, and Xavier and Vore are the same age and vying after the same woman kind

965
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:59,680
of thing. Like, right. And fine. That's fine. That's fine. But I don't understand why Xavier

966
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:04,400
is the head of the army. I get an MBA and a poster boy. I understand them getting a promotion,

967
01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:09,200
but you don't jump the whole hierarchy. There has to be other military leaders who have more

968
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:13,520
experience. You would think. You would think. You would think. But that's what I mean. If they, if

969
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:17,840
they would have spent a little bit more time on that kind of thing, which would be, I guess,

970
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:22,800
Frank's attention to detail. And maybe, I don't know, maybe it's because Frank had that kind of

971
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:29,520
attention to detail. He took a long time to write. And he could skip things that he knew weren't

972
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:33,760
important. Maybe not necessarily important, but that you could fill in the gap. Right. You know,

973
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:39,600
I don't need, I don't need a thousand pages on the 10 years they were fighting on, on Arrakis,

974
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:44,720
you know, Paul and Chani. I don't need the full 10 years. Give me a couple of highlights or give me

975
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:50,640
a summation or what have you. Right. And the way, well, and he did it really well, which was, now

976
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:55,040
it's five years away. Five years in the future, they don't talk about the battles. They talk about

977
01:22:55,040 --> 01:23:00,400
the reaction to what's going on from his enemies. Yeah. And then we're jumping more time, more time

978
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:05,680
jumping. Now we're on his side and there's like some craziness going on and we jump again. And

979
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:10,080
now there's, you know, and it all works and it all worked out just fine. Yep. Cause you don't need

980
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:16,880
to get bogged down in the details. And I know that the way that George R.R. Martin writes is that he

981
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:22,800
can't reconcile time jumps, which is why there was one book that was supposed to be set five years

982
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:26,160
after one of the other books in the game of Thrones. And I quit reading game of Thrones

983
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:30,240
because he killed everybody. And then he was introducing completely new people. And it was

984
01:23:30,240 --> 01:23:34,880
like, I'm not going to learn new people. I'm like, we're, you know, three, four books in all the

985
01:23:34,880 --> 01:23:40,400
people that I cared about are all now dead finally. And the story is still going and I don't want to

986
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:45,760
learn new people. Like I don't, I don't have the time. I don't care. I don't, you know, and he

987
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:51,440
doesn't look like he really takes care of himself health-wise and it's still unfinished. And I'm not

988
01:23:51,440 --> 01:23:55,520
going to get sucked into that where it's like an unfinished work now and blah, blah, blah. Have you

989
01:23:55,520 --> 01:24:01,520
ever seen the George R.R. Martin camp? No. He like jumps on his trampoline and like parties and has

990
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:06,240
a good time and he's doing everything other than writing. Yeah. Literally anything, anything other

991
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:09,680
than writing, which is fine. Like that's what you want to do with your life. And you get success.

992
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:13,120
That's good for you. Yeah. Good for you. I'm not going to get sucked into it though. That's a goal.

993
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:16,800
I'm not going to get sucked into it. No, you know, and so, but it was supposed to be a five year

994
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:20,640
jump in between two books, but he couldn't reconcile what the characters did during that time. So he

995
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:25,280
figured he had to write what they did during that time. And then that was the next book. And then

996
01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:28,960
he had to start after that book. And so he has to write everything, like everything that happens to

997
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:33,360
these characters, he has to write out or else you can't reconcile his brain, like how it happens.

998
01:24:33,360 --> 01:24:36,960
Because he like, there's a style of writing where you create the characters and then you put the

999
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:41,040
characters in situations and then you have to write how they respond to those situations.

1000
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:44,240
So you can't really take a five year jump because they have to respond to every little thing

1001
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:47,280
because that's what builds the character. And then you've got people that can

1002
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:53,280
have the main gist of the story down and then write the things to make the gist. Maybe make

1003
01:24:53,280 --> 01:24:57,120
a couple background notes. You know what I mean? Yeah. Make a sketch. Yeah. So it's just,

1004
01:24:57,120 --> 01:25:01,360
it's a writing style thing and I'm not really faulting him for that, but sometimes we don't

1005
01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:05,280
need the full five years. We don't need the full 10 years, which Frank understood. Yeah. I don't

1006
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:12,880
need the, I don't need 200 pages about the back and forth of shield technology to understand

1007
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:17,360
what's going on. Yeah. I mean, we're familiar with the shield technology. Nobody's starting

1008
01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:22,800
the Dune universe with the Butler energy. No, no. Starting with Dune. Yes. If you start with Dune,

1009
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:28,080
you understand the shields. Yeah. The shields are a thing. You know, like Norma telling Tio,

1010
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:33,840
Hey man, maybe don't shoot a last gun at the fucking shields because my math says so. And then

1011
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:38,960
you've got three or four more chapters of her going around him to Lord blood or count blood or

1012
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:43,200
whatever. And then him saying like, no, no, it's fine. Just like put me in the thing and let's do

1013
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:46,560
it or put a slave in that thing. I don't give a shit, whatever. Let's just do it. And they

1014
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:51,600
obliterate a moon or something. You don't, you can go from one. Yeah. You don't have to tell me that

1015
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:56,320
two sentences and then the explosion. You can jump. Yeah, you can jump that. I don't need to know.

1016
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:58,720
We all know what's going to happen. We all know. We don't need the,

1017
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:03,040
and they made a huge point too of, uh, and this is really weird because they were like,

1018
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:08,000
they kind of like broke character and they were like, what Norma didn't realize was that she just

1019
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:13,680
went around the back of Tio Holtzman and went to Lord blood directly. And that was a huge thing

1020
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:18,240
in like political science and she just didn't understand that stuff and, and blah, blah, blah.

1021
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:21,680
And then they kind of abandoned that. It's not, I don't know if it's coming back in the next two books,

1022
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:25,920
but they made like a huge thing of her, like breaking like protocol so much that they kind

1023
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:32,400
of broke character of being authors of the book to like blatantly point out that Norma went around

1024
01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:38,000
the general like hierarchy of how you do this kind of thing and went to, you know, Tio Holtzman's

1025
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:42,720
benefactor and said, I don't think Tio knows what the fuck he's doing. But they made a whole chapter

1026
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:48,880
on that of like how, like several pages worth of how Norma did a bad thing by going around Tio.

1027
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:53,040
And then they kind of didn't worry about it the rest of the book and explained in detail why it

1028
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:59,440
was going to fail. Well, yeah, but, but they focused more so on like her, what is it? Fapa

1029
01:26:59,440 --> 01:27:06,800
or something like her misstep in dealing with people of this stature level. And it was almost

1030
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:10,160
the whole chapter on that. And they were just like, Norma just didn't understand this and blah,

1031
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:14,800
blah, blah. And they, they kind of like took themselves out of the book to drive home that

1032
01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:21,120
point that she went outside of what was socially acceptable. It was not breaking the fourth wall

1033
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:25,600
good. It was like a half ass attempt at it though. Yeah. They were just like, we just want you,

1034
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:31,840
the reader to understand that there's a bad thing she did. I did not know until this episode that

1035
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:38,080
Brian Herbert invented Disney Star Wars. The what now? Brian Herbert invented Disney Star Wars. Why?

1036
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:41,280
He must be writing all of it because it's exactly the same shit we could write.

1037
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:47,600
They must have read this book and been like, yes, this is what people want. This is my jammy jam.

1038
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:52,480
This is what people want. Yeah. They need this. We need it. We need it so bad right now. Gotta

1039
01:27:52,480 --> 01:27:58,000
have it. This cigar is so good and so long. It is so good, but we're close. It is getting ashy. I

1040
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:02,480
have about an inch left, maybe an inch and a quarter left. It's starting to taste a little ashy. Not

1041
01:28:02,480 --> 01:28:07,200
sure if it's my mouth or if it's the cigar. Yeah. Hard to say. Hard to say. I'm not in your mouth.

1042
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:11,200
Could be, but- It's also getting hot. That's the OnlyFans, nice ashes.

1043
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:19,040
Soon to be on our Patreon. Maybe. Maybe. If we get enough backers, likes, shares, comments,

1044
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:22,000
the whole nine, we can do some saucy stuff.

1045
01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:29,680
I would need to be able to retire to do some saucy stuff. I'm moderately sure.

1046
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:33,360
Well, we could do one naked episode a year or something. I don't know.

1047
01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:37,840
As long as we're each at home and there's no cameras on, I'll go naked every time.

1048
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:41,360
Who says we're not? We could be naked right now. Yeah, it's also a possibility.

1049
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:45,280
You and I are the only two that know the truth. That is true. That is true.

1050
01:28:45,280 --> 01:28:49,520
Brian, write this down. The nice ashes fan fiction.

1051
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:52,480
Yes. Oh my God. Nate and Mike were high on spice.

1052
01:28:52,480 --> 01:28:55,200
High on spice. That's going to be the fireball episode.

1053
01:28:55,200 --> 01:29:01,040
Yes. Yes. What Mike didn't know was that the reach around was common courtesy. It's not gay,

1054
01:29:01,040 --> 01:29:04,400
just common courtesy. It ain't gay if it's a three-way.

1055
01:29:04,400 --> 01:29:08,320
There's more than three of us here. If it's three dudes, I'm pretty sure it's Greek

1056
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:12,480
or is it Roman? I don't know which one. Which one invited the women to the orgies again?

1057
01:29:12,480 --> 01:29:14,080
I don't remember. It doesn't matter.

1058
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:20,800
So Tio was there. Next time everybody listening,

1059
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:25,120
you know, when some weird shit goes on at work and it's appropriate to say, not in, you know,

1060
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:28,560
the company that would not appreciate it, just say, hey, it ain't gay if it's a three-way.

1061
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:31,600
It's three of us here. There you go.

1062
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:34,880
I think we tapped out the butlerian jihad. Yeah.

1063
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:36,720
Is there anything else you wanted to mention about that?

1064
01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:39,360
No. I feel like

1065
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:44,560
Vor saving Serat twice is going to come back to bite him in the butt.

1066
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:46,560
There might've been some foreshadowing there. Yes.

1067
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:51,040
Yeah. Yeah. He couldn't bring himself to kill old metal mind.

1068
01:29:51,040 --> 01:29:52,400
No, he could not. Twice now.

1069
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:57,440
Again, there's so many characters in this book. We mentioned Serat for the first time now.

1070
01:29:57,440 --> 01:30:01,520
Yeah. An hour and 45 minutes in. This far in. And it's like, it's because there's

1071
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:03,680
too many people. There's too many people. Way too many.

1072
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:05,760
Way too many. There doesn't need to be that many in one book.

1073
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:07,280
No. You got a trilogy.

1074
01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:12,560
In the trilogy, you could have, again, why do they have the Wyrm Writer stuff? That's not necessary.

1075
01:30:12,560 --> 01:30:16,640
You could bring that in two books from now. And it's so short in the chapters.

1076
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:19,040
It's irrelevant. It's nonsense. Just cut it out.

1077
01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:20,720
Yeah. Write it and cut it out.

1078
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:23,440
Yeah. Cause you don't even need it because speaking about Disney Star Wars,

1079
01:30:23,440 --> 01:30:28,240
it's the same complaint I have against Solo, a Star Wars story. Never watched it.

1080
01:30:28,240 --> 01:30:33,920
I don't need to know if Han Solo did the Kessel Run in what he said he did. It doesn't matter.

1081
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:37,280
Han Solo is a rogue character. In the original.

1082
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:40,720
He doesn't need to be telling the truth or lying. We don't, we're not supposed to know.

1083
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:44,240
In the original version, he was a scoundrel. He wasn't a rogue.

1084
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:46,880
Well, scoundrel, yes. He was a scoundrel. He shot first.

1085
01:30:46,880 --> 01:30:48,000
Yes, he did. He shot first.

1086
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:52,000
Yes, he did. But that's what I mean. Like he's one of those kind of people that you don't know

1087
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:56,320
if he's telling the truth or not. And more importantly, it doesn't matter if you know

1088
01:30:56,320 --> 01:31:00,000
if he's telling the truth or not, because of course he's going to exaggerate some things

1089
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:03,040
and be true on other things. You know what I mean? Like you've seen what he,

1090
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:06,400
if you just watch the original trilogy, the theatrical versions, not the stuff,

1091
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:09,520
the special editions, blah, blah, blah, what he says he can do, he can do.

1092
01:31:10,160 --> 01:31:15,120
But he also says things that maybe nobody could do, but it doesn't matter because that's his charm

1093
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:19,840
and sort of make us make a movie showing that he does everything that he ever says he does,

1094
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:24,960
makes him not a scoundrel, not a rogue, but just some truth telling guy, you know,

1095
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:27,680
and it takes away the charm and the mystique of the character.

1096
01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:31,040
Yeah, like Lando Calrissian is supposed to be a scoundrel.

1097
01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:34,080
Yes. He's buddies with the other scoundrel.

1098
01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:35,280
Yes. Of course, they're scoundrel buddies.

1099
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:38,640
And you don't need to know if they're acting honorably or dishonorably.

1100
01:31:38,640 --> 01:31:42,800
No. That's no matter. All he wanted was his money so he could go home. Han Solo did.

1101
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:45,280
Yeah, that's the point. He gave me my credits and I can leave.

1102
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:47,520
That's what he wants to do. That's all he wanted.

1103
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:51,360
And then he came back at the very end for whatever reason. You don't need to know what the reason is.

1104
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:53,520
It doesn't matter. He came back and saved the day.

1105
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:56,960
Really not important. Almost more important to be not known.

1106
01:31:56,960 --> 01:32:00,640
Yeah. More important to be in the dark about it. I don't need to know that. I don't need to know how

1107
01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:03,120
the Fremen discovered how to ride worms. No.

1108
01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:08,160
It's not important to the whole thing. The whole thing of doing is the Fremen are a lot

1109
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:10,720
more complex than anybody ever gave them credit for.

1110
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:13,840
And there's more of them than they knew. Yes. And you don't need to know how or why.

1111
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:15,840
On purpose. It was on purpose.

1112
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:18,720
Oh, it's all on purpose. But you don't need to know more than that. You don't need to know

1113
01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:24,800
that there's some Salim guy that got cast out and discovered how to ride a worm through happenstance

1114
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:29,600
who he thought was Budala or whatever the fuck. And you don't need to know all that stuff.

1115
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:35,920
And then what the fuck is all this? There's been abandoned environmental stations all across Dune

1116
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:39,760
that you can just go and get water and everything and candy bars from. And the vending machines

1117
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:44,160
still work after hundreds of years. The same ones that are in Dune 10,000 years later and

1118
01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:47,600
they were already 1,000 years old. Yeah. Or 10,000 years old or whatever the fuck they were.

1119
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:51,440
Yeah. Like who knows? I mean, but it's not important. I don't need to know how they

1120
01:32:51,440 --> 01:32:56,400
discovered that. I don't need to know how they discovered how to slip shod through the fucking

1121
01:32:56,400 --> 01:33:01,920
desert and not be detected by worms. Like I can fill in the gaps myself. I don't need a history of

1122
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:06,080
here's how the Fremen learned to ride worms. Right. It's a fake universe. You don't need

1123
01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:10,160
the real detail. You know what? You can put out an encyclopedia. The Dune encyclopedia. I remember

1124
01:33:10,160 --> 01:33:13,920
I had the Star Trek encyclopedia and you could go and look up anything, any starship, any captain,

1125
01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:18,080
any character in any of the movies and TV shows. And it would tell you everything all the way up

1126
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:23,200
to Voyager. And, uh, and that's cool, but it's not like a novel. You just go and look up the stuff

1127
01:33:23,200 --> 01:33:28,000
you want to know about. I don't care how the Fremen learned to ride worms. No, it's not important.

1128
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:36,960
Not important at all. So I put mine out finally. Final thoughts on the Cohiba Macassar. M-A-C-A-S-S-A-R.

1129
01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:43,040
I quite liked it. I thought it was lovely. I am not typically a Cohiba fan. I think the Cohiba

1130
01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:48,240
Blues are good. I'm not sure if we've had those on the show yet. We are. I don't know that I

1131
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:53,680
dislike Cohibas. I don't know that I seek them out. They're a famous brand for a reason. I guess in

1132
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:59,520
my mind, I just have kind of a generally favorable opinion of them. It was good. I would recommend it.

1133
01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:06,480
I would recommend it. Yes, indeed. Anyway, thanks for listening and check out, I don't know, maybe

1134
01:34:06,480 --> 01:34:12,560
this season, maybe next season, the remaining two books in this trilogy of Dune books to see if you

1135
01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:18,080
want to read them or not. This first one is, I would say, Labor of Love for the Original Dune

1136
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:22,720
series, if you want to get through it. I would agree with that assessment and be safe. Have fun.

1137
01:34:22,720 --> 01:34:42,800
Thanks for listening.