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Back when I took architecture and like drafting in like 2006, people had to like pass the

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calipers with two hands to each other because they were so expensive that under no circumstances

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could they be dropped.

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Welcome to Game of Notes, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams.

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And we're here this week with Henry from Penumbra, whose experience probably one of the strangest

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opens to the cold opens to the podcast yet.

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Hey, is dad joining us tonight?

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I just suddenly realized I didn't ask earlier.

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Yes, I think he said he has a conflicting meeting, but we'll be here any minute.

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What is with all these folks with real real business real business activities going on

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at the moment?

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And so we've got Henry from Penumbra.

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We have like, I guess a few other things.

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I missed a good episode from you folks last week.

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There we go.

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Speak of the devil.

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Speak of the devil.

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He will appear, right?

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That's the one.

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Right.

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You said I don't even remember what we talked about last week.

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We talked about what so I would say it was like substantially about regulation because

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the whole SEC thing.

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And then I was disappointed to note that the one thing that was left in the spreadsheet

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by me, which was have you ever seen those Japanese Beatles just fucking each other was

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like 5% at most of the show.

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Well, stuff about the context.

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We're like, I have no idea what it was about.

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I was like, I have no pretty bad statement to leave in the fucking spreadsheet.

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But all I'm saying is what what happens in Amsterdam stays in Amsterdam.

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Anyway, was there a lot of beetle fucking in Amsterdam?

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No, no, there wasn't really.

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I don't know why I sound so disappointed when I said that.

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But so the actual background to this was I can't I can't even remember why it came up.

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But you you have this this beetle with no apex predator or no predator that I think is

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an invasive Japanese beetle on I'm going to say the West Coast.

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And they just they just sit around and they fuck and and they generate and then it kills

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the plants.

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It is I think maybe they sit on crops and they fuck it's something like that.

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And it came up and I was like, that's very bizarre.

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But the quote that is introduced to me with was have you ever seen those Japanese Beatles

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just fucking and I was like, well, no, no, I have not.

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So I thought I passed it on in case you guys could get some mileage out of that for it

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for you know, online content.

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That was my gift to you for last week.

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Wow, you're right.

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It is on the West Coast.

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There's Oregon has a huge thing about it.

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I will I will add that to the spreadsheet for people and look it up.

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Yeah, there you go.

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So the show does everybody if you're kind of curious, Artifact showed me a video on his

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phone and they were indeed really going at it hammer and tongs.

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Why is it a video of fucking Beatles on his phone?

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I think it was immediately before he then conference called you into it.

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To our knees around.

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You said, yeah, it was literally like here's Japanese Beatles.

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So if I look confused, it was because the thing that had immediately preceded you on

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the conference call was Beatles.

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That was that was like a decent conversation.

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So have you seen these people?

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By the way, let me tell you about these Beatles parking, people say that I go off on tangents,

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which I do.

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So you admitted that.

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Yeah.

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I also say that I say, yeah, I thought that I thought the thing last week that the conversation

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was good.

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And there was a particular point as well where it's you were talking about how the regulation

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on exchange is going to change.

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And I thought it was really, really interesting because you basically spontaneously came up

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with a design that's actually the regulatory argument being used by some researchers for

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digital cash at the moment, which is that the if you use blind and sorry in advance,

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Henry, because I'm going to stumble onto territory, which I'm not qualified to talk

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about, which is cryptography.

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We only have Henry for 40 minutes.

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So keep that in mind before you let's move on to let's move on to to Henry in a second.

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But we are so blind proofs not going to go into them because I don't understand them.

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But the argument is your first, as I understand it, the first spend using a blind proof to

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prove that you have the funds can be privacy preserving.

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And then it's only the person who takes the payment that then has to essentially take

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that back through an exchange or a money service business or any kind.

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So they are potentially subject to the regulatory question of where do these funds come from.

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So it's actually part of a design for digital cash is exactly what short C described where

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the money services business bank, whoever that is exchange might have to be regulated

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because they're going to get money from all sorts of places, even if it is a CBC or a

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digital cash solution that uses something like blind proofs.

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So I was like, there you go.

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Well, I think I deserve a point there.

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What's the point worth?

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It's internet points, nothing.

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It's a one of one NFT.

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No cash value.

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But so yeah, we have this week, Henry from Penumbra.

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And it took me, I think we briefly met, I think with with Jake and 2x4 in Lisbon a couple

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of years ago, it took me a while to put two and two together that your GitHub handle was

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the GitHub handle being pulled in when I did Rust projects for certain libraries.

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And I was like, hold on a second, hold on one second.

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This is the same person.

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But obviously in this context, Henry, are you the what's your official job title in

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Penumbra, your official role?

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Is it founder, co-founder?

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Yeah, founder is good.

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So what happened basically is I had previously been doing a lot of just like cryptography

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engineering, building tooling for building crypto projects.

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And the way that that had gone is that I sort of be like, oh, this would be a cool crypto

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thing to build.

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But oops, there aren't any good tools to build it.

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So I'll like go off and build those tools.

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And now those are built, try and build the next thing and build the next thing and so

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on.

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This led me to work on some bigger and bigger projects.

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I ended up working on Zcash for a while in the early days of the project to build Zebra,

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which is like a second Zcash full node.

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And they actually just finished and tagged their 1.0 release.

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That's really exciting to see.

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Hello, I haven't been, that work was carried on by other people, not just me.

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And then about two years ago, I started thinking about Penumbra as kind of an answer to a question

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of like, how do you build privacy preserving cryptography that people are actually going

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to use?

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Like it's one thing to just like build a bunch of tools where, oh, you could build all these

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different things.

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But it's another to have some kind of like theory of change of like, why is this private

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system going to win compared to some transparent alternative that people could use instead?

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And so one way to think about Penumbra is actually that it's a very elaborate answer

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to that question.

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So we'll loop back around in a minute to some of the other stuff you said about your background.

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But why would you describe it as an elaborate solution?

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Well, because it's an entire like blockchain, private decks, like it's a new like privacy

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preserving O1 does cross chain privacy stuff.

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It's elaborate in the sense that trying to come up with an actual answer of like, how

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do you build a privacy preserving system that can outcompete its transparent alternatives

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requires like actually doing that and actually like, yeeting an entire new protocol out into

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the world turns out to be like quite a lot of work.

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Yeah.

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So on that point, I would say that just from dipping into the Discord periodically to see

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how things are going, there's obviously a lot of vaporware in this system, in this ecosystem.

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And I think Penumbra is one of those things that is the absolute like axiomatic opposite

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of vaporware that the amount of work that's gone into it over the last couple of years,

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it literally, I think gives me a bit of a migraine every time I look into your Discord

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at how much seems to be going on as well as the complexity of it, which is very, I think

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I guess cryptography maybe always looks like that if you are just a normal software engineer

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who generally doesn't have to deal with cryptography and the mass behind it.

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But what have been like some of the biggest challenges that you have encountered and like

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were they ones you expected from the outset or?

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Actually no.

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So especially with like ZK stuff, there's a lot of focus on like, oh, here we're doing

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these proofs.

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The proofs are very complicated.

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Here are all these different advances in proving technology.

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Here's like the latest proof system and so on and so on and so on.

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And for us, we actually found that that wasn't sort of the most difficult or interesting

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part.

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And the reason is that like, once you start trying to, once you change your kind of frame

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or mindset from like, what are interesting things that we could build with all of this

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like moon math to what is a useful thing to do, you have to have this kind of like full

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system perspective on what it is that you're building.

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And the way that you achieve privacy in a blockchain context is by taking all of the

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actual execution of everybody's data, taking the user's data itself, moving it all like

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off chain onto the end user device and having them send these proofs that like, oh, I did

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my actions correctly, but I'm not going to have to reveal what that action was.

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And that means that you end up with this totally different state and execution model that is

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like kind of at odds with the way that a lot of existing systems are built.

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So as an example, if you're trying to, you know, let's say you're trying to build some

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app chain, right, and your app chain is like, mostly similar to other chains, except that

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it has like some special thing, that's your application, that's what it does.

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Then there's a really great solution to that, which is you just use the Cosmos SDK.

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And it's like this like rails for blockchains, it gives you your template thing, you know,

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and then you can add your own custom modules to do your custom thing.

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And that works if you're doing something that is mostly similar to other systems.

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But if you want to build something that's like, like a fundamentally different architecture,

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you actually have to go all the way down the stack and rebuild a lot of those pieces.

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And most of the work that we've done has actually been in like building the tools for us to build

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the chain that we're building.

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We're kind of like evolving towards here's kind of a framework for how to do, you know,

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some tenor and chains and rust.

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But that's been been something that's kind of emergent from the work that we've done

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overall.

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And sorry, the cat is yelling, but no worries.

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Cats are also friends of the pod.

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Yeah.

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Well, we there's an automatic door and it's voice activated.

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So the cat yells and then the door opens eventually.

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So I'll get up in a second.

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Yeah, it turns out that it's like 90% of the work is just like sending the data around

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and figuring out how to make that happen.

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It's actually kind of a kind of a rug.

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So obviously, they're obviously big fan of the fact you folks are rust maxis and doing

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it in rust.

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I guess the voice activated door didn't work.

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I think that was a joke.

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That was a great joke.

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That was a sweet joke.

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That was an activation.

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Yeah.

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I think so.

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I've got a very young baby.

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I get it.

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It took me a minute to get that.

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I was like the voice activated door.

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Surely that do have those.

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I was like, it do exist.

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I was like, that would be at odds with somebody who is a well, that would be odds with my

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impression of people who work on cryptography would be that somebody would allow a voice

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activated door in their place as a resident.

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I just slept a raspberry pie and a motor on my door and so I had a spindle that opened.

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It's probably fine.

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I'm sure there's no software on this that has been owned.

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It's like I met some people working on digital cash a little while ago and I was very, very

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pleased that all of them looked to me like I was an absolute, like I was a mass murderer

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when I used a card to pay for a coffee and all of them had like rolls of five pound notes

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that they went around with.

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And I was like, this is good.

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I now feel bad about using the card, which I should feel maybe bad about.

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I don't know, but I've exchanged my privacy for convenience and I deserve to have a boot

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around my neck.

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Anyway, also those sweet crash back credits.

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What else were you going to do?

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You can't do that with cash.

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That's how they get you.

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That's how that's how that's how you're still a penny is a little drop in there.

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Yeah, that's right.

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I mean, yeah, credit card rewards are sort of like the original like M.E.V. economy.

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We had somebody flipping quote from this podcast.

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That would be every episode there's one somebody comes out with one amazing one.

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Thank you, Henry.

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You come out with one more than shorts who send you a gift basket.

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All right.

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We'll see what we can do.

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I just volunteer shorts.

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Anyway, so, um, so yeah, like obviously it pleases my pleas and glads my heart that you

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folks are Russ Maxies, but I guess that also makes sense based on the stuff that you're

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doing that you would want to use Rust for this particular use case.

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But what made you I guess the answer I think is going to be obvious, but there have been

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some other efforts to do changing in tendermen.

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So using tendermen that are using Rust.

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I'm guessing that you folks, well, from what I've seen anyway, you've basically rolled

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it all yourselves.

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So are you are am I right in thinking you're maybe using the IBC stuff formal or not?

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There's some overlap, but we now have our own IBC implementation just because the chain

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side implementation of the IBC state machine is pretty intertwined with how the actual chain

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functions and operates, right?

241
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Like in IBC, you have like, oh, chain is running the light client of chain B and like, you

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know, deciding whether or not it, you know, accepts the messages, whatever, it's doing

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all that and like writing into the state of the chain that it's in.

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Um, and so we're interested in like figuring out some way to like abstract that and kind

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of commonize it, but, uh, I think it's always better to start with one working version and

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like one example and then generalize from that rather than starting with how do we make

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this like very abstract thing that can work with anything because a lot of the problem

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of software development is like going from the, it's like doing the like draw the rest

249
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of the owl on what the requirements are along the way to actually building the system.

250
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You discover all of these like implicit connections between different parts of the thing.

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And I think that if you start with like building one useful thing first, generalizing out of

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that is much easier than trying to be like, oh, we're going to like just have the mind

253
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palace like, and it's going to come out fully formed and be this like perfect artifact.

254
00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:58,520
Right.

255
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,800
Um, that's called the chppt, right?

256
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:01,800
Yeah.

257
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,800
Just rewrite it for penumbra.

258
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:04,800
Yeah.

259
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:05,800
Sorry, go ahead.

260
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:06,800
Yeah.

261
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:11,040
So, but that's, that's also been kind of the story of the stack that we've built, right?

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So we started, um, kind of working on this in earnest, um, about two years ago.

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And at that time, I don't think there were any, uh, tendermen chains in prod that were

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running, uh, rust with the possible exception of, I think secret had some kind of thing

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where parts of it were the SDK and parts of it were rust stuff.

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I don't, I don't know exactly, but nobody was doing like, okay, the entire chain is

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just like the app is in rust and whatever.

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And so we had to basically figure out how to do that along the way.

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And so we built up this kind of like little like salami slice, like layered stack.

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And the lowest levels of the slices have been used like very widely among similar projects.

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Like the library that we wrote to interface with tendermen is also used by, uh, Anoma

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for the MATA.

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And then, you know, we built like a storage system that has like Merkleized data stores.

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And that's, um, getting used by Astrea and so on.

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And so the hope is that eventually, you know, as we finish our chain, um, a bunch of the

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pieces that we built along the way can be reused, uh, by other projects.

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So we're kind of, you know, most of the way through having to have invented our own stack

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kind of out of necessity.

279
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How many are there, uh, working up a number right now?

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And did they all have a cryptography background or how did you all like come to work together?

281
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So at the moment, there are three teams that are working on PNUMRA itself.

282
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There's PNUMRA Labs.

283
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And then we're also, uh, working with Strangelove, um, who are helping with, uh, some of the

284
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IDC work that we've been doing.

285
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Um, and we're also working with, uh, Spokane, who are building a, uh, web extension and,

286
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uh, like web frontend for PNUMRA, which is like a whole other fascinating thing of like,

287
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how do you have like a web frontend for a transparent, or for a shielded chain where

288
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like you can't just go and ask some server like, Hey, what's my account balance?

289
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,240
Um, does that mean PNUMRA won't have like viewing keys then?

290
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,680
So there, there are viewing keys that are part of PNUMRA, but like you don't want to

291
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give out, we're basically, we're not building the system on the assumption that you're going

292
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to hand out your like data to an RPC provider because that sucks.

293
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:56,600
So the challenge then is like, how do you like give every user their own local, like

294
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personal RPC endpoint and how do you design, you know, that thing to do all of the scanning

295
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,280
and synchronization locally?

296
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:05,280
Fascinating.

297
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:06,280
Okay.

298
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:07,280
Yeah.

299
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:08,280
So we can get into that in a bit.

300
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,280
It's, it's pretty neat.

301
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,560
Um, but yeah, so there's about the three teams working currently on it.

302
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,200
Uh, at PNUMRA Labs, we have about nine people.

303
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:26,520
Um, and I would say, I don't know, maybe like one third of the team had like previous cryptography

304
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:27,520
experience.

305
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,320
Um, people have a lot of different paths.

306
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:37,080
Um, I think the difficulty of like, you know, getting into doing cryptography is, is kind

307
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,080
of overstated.

308
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:44,320
Um, like not that it's like nothing, but it's, I, I'm a, I'm a believer in like roll your

309
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,680
own crypto, but like carefully.

310
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,840
But then that is potentially with the luxury of hindsight and expertise.

311
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:52,840
Yeah.

312
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,680
I mean, it's like, you don't, you don't want to sort of like go off and, you know, do stuff

313
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like totally in isolation from, from the world.

314
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:08,000
But I think one of the things that is the, one of the best things about the like cryptos

315
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,200
and cryptocurrency is that there's very, very little gatekeeping.

316
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:19,600
And you see the like ill effects of that too, of like, you know, people doing wildly

317
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,480
responsible things and then like losing a shit ton of money.

318
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,960
Um, but I think like, you know, is that really like on the devs?

319
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,960
Or is that on the people who are like aping into shit coins?

320
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,240
I don't know.

321
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,240
But all of that aside, the thing that is really, really good and special and like we should

322
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:44,680
defend at all costs is that because it is this like growing industry, um, you just can't

323
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,640
survive if you do gatekeeping.

324
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,840
Um, because like, you know, talent is so hard to find.

325
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,160
Like you have to grow it.

326
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:59,400
Um, and the teams that are like, have this kind of like open sort of spirit.

327
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,600
Um, you know, that's, I think a really great and beautiful thing about the ecosystem that

328
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,440
I think sometimes gets overlooked.

329
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,240
So yes, I think that's a really good point.

330
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:14,760
I agree that what you just said actually also in general, I think there's been a lot of

331
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,640
negatives, particularly in the cosmos, there's been a lot of negativity recently.

332
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,800
And I think like it probably would do us well to consider some of those sorts of things,

333
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:26,880
a bit more in future in terms of like, well, this is the, I mean, sorry, no reflection

334
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,880
in you, Henry, but this is to be fair.

335
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:34,120
If I wanted a load of hippie positivity, I could just like text Jake and I'm sure he'd

336
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:38,880
send it to me in spades because that is his, his role in my life is to be the fucking hippie

337
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:39,880
guy from California.

338
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,200
That's like everything's going to be fine, man.

339
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,160
You just need to put it in a dow.

340
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,160
But, um, yeah.

341
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,720
So like I'm also kind of interested like, you know, uh, just maybe for the viewers,

342
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,920
you don't have to read your whole CV as well, Henry, but like, um, like how did you originally

343
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,200
sort of get involved in the space full stop?

344
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,040
You know, was it, was it that you had, uh, an academic interest and an academic background

345
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:07,560
in cryptography first and then you're like, Oh, that's an interesting use case for this,

346
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,360
like for applying this or was it, uh, or am I caught before the horse?

347
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:12,360
And it was, yeah.

348
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:19,360
So, so originally I did, uh, I did math, um, and around the time of the student, I was

349
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:20,360
in revelations.

350
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:23,480
I kind of got into cryptography.

351
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:29,920
Um, and for me personally, the original motivation was this, like, you can have this very, very

352
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:39,600
interesting interplay between super high level, um, abstract mathematics, number theory, you

353
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,640
know, the geometry of elliptic curves, all this, like very abstract stuff.

354
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:50,760
And then when you do implementations of cryptography, you can have very, very low level, like the

355
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:56,280
most low level kind of computer programming of like, you know, what type of hardware does

356
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,800
this machine have?

357
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,360
Like what type of registers am I going to use?

358
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:06,040
Um, how do I, you know, have the like dependency chains among the individual instructions that

359
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,800
the whole thing can go very fast?

360
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,720
And it's like this, like, almost these, like two totally different ways of thinking.

361
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,360
And one of the really, one of the most beautiful and interesting things about doing cryptography

362
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:22,560
engineering is that you get to kind of like play both of these areas against each other.

363
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,080
Um, so that's kind of my origin story into cryptography.

364
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:31,680
Um, before you go, would you describe yourself as a detail person, more of a detail person

365
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,160
or more of a big, right?

366
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,160
Okay.

367
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:39,760
That's the thing that's really interesting about it is that you get to do kind of, you

368
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,400
get to like play, like, like sort of change languages as you go.

369
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:50,600
Um, so, so that was, um, you know, how, how I got into doing cryptography engineering.

370
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:58,560
Um, but also cryptography as a field is a kind of inherently political, uh, thing.

371
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:05,560
Um, cryptography, if you think of it as sort of the engineering of trust, accountability,

372
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,560
uh, information.

373
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:14,440
Um, these are all things that have like very important, um, social implications.

374
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:22,520
And so it's sort of this, this sort of trifecta of mathematics, computer science, politics,

375
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,960
um, that was very appealing to me.

376
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:26,960
Um, yeah.

377
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,040
To that end, where, what, um, I guess, where do you, where do you live?

378
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,040
Are you in the U S?

379
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,040
Yeah.

380
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,040
Okay.

381
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,520
Do you have any sort of fear then of, you know, like being shut down, kind of like tornado

382
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:43,080
cash, given that it's kind of like a, to us, it's not very close.

383
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,840
However, for the general populace, I think it's just kind of like a squint away from

384
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:53,680
being the same thing, developing a private, private blockchain versus developing a mixer.

385
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:59,240
Um, I mean, I think so the United States is an interesting place.

386
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:06,760
Um, and when crypto people talk about the regulatory environment in the United States,

387
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,600
I think they mostly focus on the like financial regulation, right?

388
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:17,920
And I think part of that is because a lot of the activity in the space is in shitcoins,

389
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,600
which like, you know, maybe those could be regulated and that would be fine.

390
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:30,000
Um, but the United States also has very, very strong protections around like freedom of

391
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,520
expression, free speech.

392
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,160
There's legal precedent about, you know, code is speech.

393
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:43,480
People have the right to publish their ideas about, you know, how, um, things could be

394
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,200
organized.

395
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:50,160
And so, and also, you know, with, with tornado cash as an example, right?

396
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,320
Like Alexi who's arrested and just like held in prison without even any fucking charges

397
00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:02,360
that like, you know, that's not really something that I think, uh, like America has problems.

398
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,720
But, but not that specific problem.

399
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:12,120
And so I think that from a perspective of like freedom of expression, the right to like,

400
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:19,200
uh, publish, describe software that expresses some like political idea about, you know,

401
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,920
how people could coordinate with each other.

402
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,120
There's not really a better place in the world, uh, to do that.

403
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:30,360
Um, you know, although, you know, there's, there's other issues.

404
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:34,560
And so, so I don't have a particular concern about, about that.

405
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,760
I think there's pretty strong precedence in the United States about, um, you know, people

406
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,200
have a right to develop encryption software.

407
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:48,200
Um, and that's, that's basically what, uh, we are all doing.

408
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,280
Um, and we'll just see how it goes.

409
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,280
Yeah.

410
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,080
You know, the insane thing about the, the, I'm sorry, I don't know his surname, but

411
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,440
Alexi, the dev that was jailed, it was in Holland, right?

412
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,000
Sorry, not Holland, the Netherlands, isn't the Netherlands.

413
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,320
And the crazy thing about the Netherlands is they are normally a very pragmatic country.

414
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:13,360
I mean, this is a country where Catholicism was outlawed and their reaction to that was

415
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:19,440
to when they were sent a police report by like a neighbor, I think Catholics were gathering

416
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:20,440
on Sunday.

417
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,720
They would send the police around on Monday, so they didn't have to deal with the problem,

418
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,600
you know, and, and thus Catholics secretly met in the country for 300 years until it was

419
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:35,200
outlawed, you know, there's, there's literally, there's a, there's a, there's a square in Amsterdam,

420
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,240
which was owned by all Catholics.

421
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,560
And the Dutch authorities went, well, they're all Catholics, but they are doing on their

422
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,320
own property and property is sacrosanct.

423
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,760
So whatever they do in their own homes, you know, they can do, I haven't seen any Catholic

424
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:54,160
stuff happening outside the home, and either they had knocked two houses together and they

425
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,520
had a Catholic church in there for like 200, I forget, maybe not 200 years, but a long

426
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,400
period of time and it's across the road from a Protestant church.

427
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,720
And how quiet could they have been?

428
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,080
I mean, the Protestant church congregation would have noticed on Sunday that there were

429
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,400
some hymns going on across the road, you know what I mean?

430
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:16,680
Like, so it's surprising to me that the Dutch are pragmatic people, especially when there's

431
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:22,040
money to be made, which, you know, we, to some extent we are, we are talking about the,

432
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,240
well, I guess the Dutch state isn't going to make any money, are they from taxation,

433
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,440
which is, I guess, maybe where we come back into the pragmatism of the Dutch.

434
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,120
I don't know, but it does strike me as a bit strange of all places that in the Netherlands,

435
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,080
the Netherlands were the people that would hold somebody without trial for that period

436
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:42,440
of time over something like this, where they are generally quite like individual rights,

437
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:43,920
you know, maybe, maybe not.

438
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:44,920
Yeah, I don't know.

439
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,880
I think, well, they love illegal fudge anyway.

440
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,600
It's, it's surprising.

441
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:57,080
But I think also, I, you know, this is my like, un-nuanced take is I think that in a

442
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:03,120
lot of ways, like, governments in Western Europe are like mostly pretty functional,

443
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,240
like 80, 90% of the time.

444
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:10,520
And so I think people have a lot more like baseline trust and like, oh yeah, you know,

445
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,480
well, I guess, you know, they probably wouldn't do that for no reason or, you know, whatever.

446
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,920
Whereas in the United States, because the government is less functional, I think that

447
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:27,280
there's a lot more distrust of like the system.

448
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:35,040
And so people are kind of more, more hesitant to kind of like take claims at face value.

449
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,640
But, but I don't, I don't know if I have a really deep sort of take on it.

450
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,000
I appreciate the take regardless.

451
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:48,120
And especially on the, the encryption side of things, I thought that was a nuanced understanding,

452
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,400
which I guess as a founder of an encryption protocol or encrypted protocol, you would

453
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,080
have a nuanced take.

454
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,960
There's also like, I mean, people will sometimes talk about like, oh, like, you know, you can

455
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:02,760
just like hop around the world and pick your jurisdiction or whatever.

456
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,520
But it's like, you know, at some point, like, you have to have a life and like live in place

457
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,960
and have a community and, you know, this is where I am now.

458
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,920
So here we are.

459
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:14,920
Let's go.

460
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,120
But yeah, Henry, interesting.

461
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,600
You're talking before about the, just the amount of changes you've made just on the core stack

462
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,840
and, you know, some of the components within IBC.

463
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,080
It's interesting to hear strange love being involved in that too.

464
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,000
Like we're getting more involved in different chains that are rewriting pretty significant

465
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,760
components of this.

466
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,720
So what does it mean to be a Cosmos chain in your eyes and is the number of Cosmos chain

467
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,200
and how's that definition going to change?

468
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,920
And like, where do you think this is headed like from as a, as a founder of a project like

469
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:48,920
this?

470
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:55,040
I guess my take is like, I would be a kind of like more of a not like a sort of stricter

471
00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,600
interpretation of like Cosmos, like a Cosmos chain is any chain that uses the Cosmos SDK.

472
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,040
And by that definition, the number actually isn't Cosmos chain.

473
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,720
On the other hand, it is in the Cosmos ecosystem.

474
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:16,280
And that was primarily motivated by a like belief in the App Chain thesis and be the

475
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,960
existence of tenement and the existence of IDC.

476
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:26,800
I know there's like a lot of drama discussion, dissension about like, what is the future

477
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:27,800
of Cosmos?

478
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,120
What is the future of the hub, et cetera.

479
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,760
I don't really have like a super strong opinion about it because of just like all of my time

480
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,200
and attention goes into the project that I'm trying to build.

481
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:46,120
But I do think that at the level of like the core technology, like I'm way more of like

482
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,120
an IDC Maxi than I am like a Cosmos SDK Maxi.

483
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,240
Like IDC just definitely will win.

484
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:53,880
I think we've all said that on this.

485
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,800
Like that seems like that is the, that's the intellectual property that survives the matter

486
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:58,800
what, right?

487
00:32:58,800 --> 00:32:59,800
Yeah.

488
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,240
And I think that's a rewriting part of that, but that's not rewriting it, right?

489
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,800
That's not forking it.

490
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,840
It's enhancing it.

491
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:11,600
It's not that we're even like, it's probably useful to distinguish between like the protocol

492
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,080
and implementation.

493
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,080
Yeah.

494
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,080
Right.

495
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,320
So at the protocol level, we're not changing anything, but at the implementation level,

496
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,440
you know, we're going to have our own stack that sort of integrates that with what we're

497
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:25,440
doing.

498
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:32,440
And we want to be able to have a kind of deeper integration with IBC because the eventual

499
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:39,400
sort of longterm vision of Pnebra is being this kind of private cross chain layer.

500
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:45,360
We want to help bring IBC to more places, have like more client types.

501
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:53,360
We have some interesting ideas about how you could enhance the security of IBC.

502
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,880
But all of those things, it's like, you know, I don't want Pnebra to sort of be like building

503
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:58,880
an ecosystem.

504
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,320
Like I want to be building in an ecosystem.

505
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,280
And I want to do that so that we can have our like differentiated thing of like, this

506
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:06,280
is what we do.

507
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,000
And for everything else, there's like, you know, other chains and they can have the

508
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,200
things that they focus on in the Internet.

509
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:21,480
So in the context that Pnebra is sort of well, fire IBC could be a gateway to other places

510
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:22,800
in the cosmos.

511
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:30,360
If you're, I guess if you're bridging in from another privacy preserving ledger, DLT, anything

512
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:39,400
really, in another ecosystem, if you then built the sort of IBC enablers to connect

513
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:45,440
with Pnebra, it would be quite a logical place to sort of enter the cosmos ecosystem

514
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,720
because then it uses privacy guarantees when they land in Pnebra are going to be at least

515
00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:52,400
as good as wherever they came from, right?

516
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:58,720
And then if they want to go and just, you know, then go and just mash those mash onto

517
00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:02,200
the hub and then lose that privacy guarantee that's kind of on them, right?

518
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:07,760
Yeah, I think a really interesting angle here is like privacy and fungibility, right?

519
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:13,920
So fungibility is a pretty important property of digital assets that, you know, my bitcoins

520
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,640
are worth the same as your bitcoins because they're both bitcoins.

521
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,600
Right, we were talking about this the other week in the context of, you know, the Juno

522
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,200
Prop 16 way allows like my Juno is more fungible than his Juno, right?

523
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:27,200
Right.

524
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,880
And as soon as you have, there's this kind of fundamental contradiction where if you

525
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:41,120
have this transparent system where all of the activity is public, then you lose fungibility

526
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:46,600
because someone can say, you know, at some point in the future and you don't know what

527
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,480
that's going to be, like, oh, these tokens are different, they're not worth as much

528
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,760
as these other ones.

529
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:59,680
And so especially in the bridging context, I think it's a pretty interesting use case.

530
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,120
Also for liquid staking, right?

531
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:11,000
If you want to have sort of trades between different liquid staking tokens, you might

532
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:19,240
end up having like many different denominations of similar or essentially similar assets,

533
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:20,240
right?

534
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:24,960
Like here's like atoms that are staked with this liquid staking provider or this one or

535
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,000
that one or whatever.

536
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,600
And one of the really cool things that we built into Penumbra in our DEX is this idea

537
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,440
of on-chain routing.

538
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,560
So when you submit a trade on Penumbra, rather than saying like, oh, I'm just going to trade

539
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:47,280
X to Y and it'll look at that specific X to Y pair, you submit an intent of I'm putting

540
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:53,680
in X and I want to get Y out and the chain will figure out what route of different trading

541
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,400
pairs is the best one for it to take.

542
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,000
And the key thing that that unlocks in this sort of like multi-chain world, in this like

543
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:07,760
liquid staked world, where you potentially have many different distinct assets that are

544
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:13,280
somehow related or have like known relationships or maybe it's just differing over the bridge

545
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:20,600
or the staking provider or whatever, our routing engine can basically route across all of those.

546
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:27,240
So as a user, I don't have to care like exactly which like sub variant of this token has the

547
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:28,800
deepest liquidity.

548
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:35,280
We don't have to have concentration into specific liquid staking providers or specific

549
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:44,360
bridges or whatever because we can just sort of just clarify for listeners what the example

550
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:45,360
there would be.

551
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:50,200
So are you saying in the case that you had like one type of bridge to USDC and another

552
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,720
type of bridge to USDC, you would be looking to route to the most sensible one for the

553
00:37:54,720 --> 00:38:01,520
user to execute without them having to specifically say, oh, I want whatever.

554
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:06,560
Yeah, so like here's an example.

555
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:14,440
Suppose that I have USDC that's bridged from Gravity Bridge and I want to get ETH that's

556
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,160
bridged from Axelar, right?

557
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:22,240
Now I have, you know, really what I want to be doing is this like USDC to ETH trade,

558
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:26,840
but I'm kind of like mixed in this like bridge choice, which I don't really care about that

559
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:27,840
much.

560
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:35,120
And so if I was using another system where there's this kind of fragmented liquidity environment,

561
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,440
all of these tokens are all like their own little universes, right?

562
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:47,320
The pool between, you know, Axelar USDC and Gravity Bridge ETH or vice versa is going to

563
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,920
be tiny because nobody's going to be market making that specific pair.

564
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:58,640
So on Penumbra, I could submit that trade intent of I want to trade my like Axelar USDC for

565
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:05,920
Gravity Bridge ETH and the chain just figures out, should I do, you know, a stable swap

566
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:14,600
between the different USDC representations and then go over, you know, whichever Axelar

567
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,960
or Gravity has like the deepest liquidity on the USDC ETH pair, then, you know, maybe

568
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,160
you have to do another stable swap on the other end.

569
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,000
And you don't have to have, you can sort of let liquidity providers decide where are we

570
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:37,040
going to be providing liquidity, and you can cleanly kind of factor out the volatile pairs

571
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,120
where there's going to be price discovery happening from the stable pairs where like

572
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:51,400
if I'm doing market making on Axelar USDC versus Gravity Bridge USDC, like I should,

573
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:57,560
I'm not really taking on any price risk other than the bridge risk, which like I can just,

574
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,920
you know, unwind, rewind as much as I like so I can manage that.

575
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,920
And so the cost of doing those stable swaps should be very cheap if you can have liquidity

576
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,640
providers compete on price.

577
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:14,120
So how do you like, perhaps I've not fully understood it, but then if I've understood

578
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:22,080
the problem correctly, how are you able to know the denom's that have, let's say a different

579
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:28,120
representation or a bridge in a different way, but are fundamentally equivalent?

580
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:34,200
How are you folks actually working out what those things should be in that graph where

581
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,160
you're going to try to work out, you know, essentially like.

582
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:42,520
So we don't actually have to have the chain figure that out.

583
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:49,640
We just determine that based on some basic heuristics and like the amount of liquidity.

584
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,720
So it's ultimately like a market allocated thing.

585
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:59,520
If people are going to provide liquidity on, you know, different stable swap pairs, you

586
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:07,440
know, they can do so or not, and the chain, like when it's executing a trade is just going

587
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:14,920
to do a graph traversal and figure out, you know, which path is the best.

588
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:19,360
But that path search doesn't have to know anything specific about any of the assets.

589
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,440
It's just like, you know, where is the liquidity?

590
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:22,440
Okay.

591
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,160
So the graph traversal does happen on chain then.

592
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,160
Yeah.

593
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:27,160
When the trade is submitted.

594
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:28,160
Yeah.

595
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:29,160
Okay.

596
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,520
So we spent some time making that fast.

597
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:32,520
Yeah.

598
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,560
I was going to say, I was going to say, whether or not that's on chain or on the user's device

599
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,800
like some of the other things you were describing, that feels like definitely in the category

600
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,680
of hard things.

601
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:43,680
Yeah.

602
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:48,800
So like I mentioned at the beginning, you know, we sort of built up our stack incrementally.

603
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:55,640
One of the things that we actually built along the way is our state and storage system.

604
00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:03,320
And the way that we do it in Penumbra is we model every sort of part of the chain state

605
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,360
as having these sort of independent copy on write forks.

606
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:13,760
So anytime everything is snapshots, everything is like a right to only my local changes on

607
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,720
top of my snapshot.

608
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:19,240
And those may eventually get committed back or not.

609
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:25,280
And what that lets us do is actually have a paradigm where every single execution of

610
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,800
any kind is a simulation.

611
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:34,560
And some of those simulations, we let it or commit to the chain state, but we always have

612
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,440
the choice whether to commit or discard.

613
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:46,360
And so when we're doing this like graph traversal, we can actually just like do this like parallel

614
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:53,160
search of like simulating every possible route that we want to explore in these like different

615
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:59,080
forked universes and then which one we want and say like, okay, that was the best execution.

616
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:00,560
Now let's do it.

617
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:05,880
This reminds me of working with RDF data back in the day where you quite often have like

618
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:10,200
a large, let's say government data set, and you might want to overlay some new data from

619
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,920
let's say a new financial year or whatever.

620
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:19,360
And so you end up having to you can't really add just one node to a massive data set of

621
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:25,520
triples you have to instead add overlay a new subgraph, then examine what the new universe

622
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:31,880
looks like and then say, do I want to combine these two and then commit my new universe?

623
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,520
And it gets quite quickly mind boggling.

624
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:36,680
I remember.

625
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:42,600
So I can't even imagine how it must get for your use case.

626
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,280
But luckily we can kind of encapsulate all of that machinery.

627
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,200
So we just have this sort of, you know, here's a state instance, and you know, you read to

628
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:52,640
it and write to it.

629
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,880
And you know, this is why we use Rust.

630
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,880
It's that we can build all these nice abstractions.

631
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,720
And it has a lot of cool performance benefits too, right?

632
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:08,240
Like because we're always writing into a cache, we're just doing like in memory writes.

633
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:13,880
And as we're, if we're ever like reading data that we've recently written, we don't have

634
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:20,960
to go all the way down into the like underlying disk storage to go get that data.

635
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,160
You sort of have this like built in locality.

636
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:29,600
Oh, so it's like the NOMIC, like the way NOMIC did their Merck, like the tree thing where

637
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,880
it's all basically a memory and then it gets flushed to whatever the online data layer was,

638
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,200
like rocks or whatever it was.

639
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,080
So we only did one commit per block.

640
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,080
It's beautiful.

641
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,160
That is pretty cool, actually.

642
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,400
Yeah, fair enough.

643
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,000
I appreciate you said you had to go.

644
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:54,240
Do you have to talk about the stuff on client devices because that sounds really cool.

645
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:55,240
Yeah, sure.

646
00:44:55,240 --> 00:45:01,160
I do have to run about a point in eight minutes, but I can just use up the time by running

647
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,040
to it.

648
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:09,480
So the cool thing about the client devices, right, is this problem of when you introduce

649
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:18,680
privacy into blockchains, you quickly realize that the sort of existence of this big database

650
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,000
in the sky with everybody's state in it is actually this load.

651
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,720
That's the problem that you're trying to solve, but it's also this load bearing component

652
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:28,840
of pretty much every single workflow.

653
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:34,240
And when you bring in privacy, who gets access to what information that adds this entirely

654
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:37,960
new design access, right?

655
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:44,400
And in terms of the data access, that means that now my wallet has to know about what

656
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:45,400
is my account state.

657
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:52,920
It can't just go and ask some server because the point is that I want to keep my data to

658
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,960
myself and have control over it.

659
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,640
So we actually, that was the first thing that we started with.

660
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,960
It wasn't like, oh, how are we going to implement all of our proofs right from the get go?

661
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,280
It's how do we solve the personal data problem?

662
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:14,840
And what we ended up building is this thing called a view server, personal view server

663
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,280
that is basically like a personal RPC employee.

664
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:24,720
So you can think of this as being kind of like a micro node that synchronizes with the

665
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:29,840
chain state, but instead of synchronizing every single block and every single transaction

666
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:37,600
and doing all of the chain state, it scans and filters for only the parts of the data

667
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:43,240
that are relevant to your specific user and your account.

668
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:46,760
And saves and indexes all of that data locally.

669
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:51,240
It's built to be this lightweight embeddable component.

670
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:56,960
When you run our command line tool, it actually starts this node internally and does in memory

671
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,960
requests to it.

672
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,080
And with the spoken team has built, the people can actually go and try out now, although

673
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:13,560
it's still alpha quality, is an extension for Chrome that runs the Penumbra view server

674
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:18,360
in the extension, does all the scanning and synchronization locally, and then you can

675
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:26,960
have this kind of connect to wallet like flow where you can go to front end, like app.tessnet.penumbra.zone,

676
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:35,760
and that front end can be querying the browser extension as like here's a personal RPC for

677
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,120
something that is going to know about just my account state.

678
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,120
That's pretty cool.

679
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:41,120
That's really cool.

680
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:42,120
That's pretty cool.

681
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:49,560
So yeah, I do got to run, but the kind of interesting takeaway there that I think people

682
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:55,280
should sit with is there's a really interesting interplay between privacy on the one hand

683
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,120
and scalability on the other.

684
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:02,360
A lot of the time people are like, oh, is it DK for privacy or is it DK for scalability?

685
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,240
And although those are sort of two different initial directions, I think that they have

686
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:12,840
a kind of convergent evolution because if you think of sort of this perfectly scalable

687
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,280
system, then it shouldn't be broadcasting information unnecessarily.

688
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:22,600
And if you think of a private system, the fact that you're not disclosing additional

689
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:30,120
information means that other people who aren't you don't have to be, like they can't see

690
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,240
that information anyway, so they don't have to process it.

691
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:38,040
Yeah, I've heard a similar argument about digital cash where if you issue tokens but

692
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,560
then recycle them very frequently, chain state never gets out of control because the ledger

693
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,400
is only ever so big, right?

694
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:50,960
It's only ever as long as the in-flight transactions, which on the Visa networks, what, 1700 a second,

695
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,000
to absolute peak, and then it's only that many things written to desk, which is like

696
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,520
a megabyte, probably or less.

697
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,280
So that's really interesting.

698
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:01,280
Thank you so much for coming.

699
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:02,280
We kind of did try it on.

700
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,280
I know we've been trying to arrange it for years.

701
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:05,280
Yeah.

702
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:06,280
We really appreciate it.

703
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:07,280
Thanks, Henry.

704
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:08,280
Yeah, thank you so much.

705
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:09,280
Thanks, man.

706
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:10,280
Bye.

707
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:15,320
So I did track down that wallet and I have it in the show notes, so people will be able

708
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,920
to try it out if they want to.

709
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,320
Henry is such a positive influence in the ecosystem.

710
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:24,200
Every time I chat with him, he's just, one, he's obviously is like a mega mind.

711
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,200
He's a crazy smart.

712
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:27,200
He is.

713
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,200
So like you just got to sit back and let his flow.

714
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,200
I was just soaking it in.

715
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:34,200
Yeah, exactly.

716
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,200
He's got a great vibe as well.

717
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:37,200
He's just, yeah.

718
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:38,200
Just first listening.

719
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,640
We'll add it to the show notes.

720
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,480
You should follow Henry on Twitter as well.

721
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:52,280
Lots of hot takes, lots of memes, good value for money in terms of being free as well.

722
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:58,320
I think my crypto Twitter, I only follow about five or 10 people and Henry is one of them.

723
00:49:58,320 --> 00:49:59,320
So strong recommend.

724
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:00,320
Yeah.

725
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:01,820
He'll go hot though.

726
00:50:01,820 --> 00:50:06,000
He does, but he also has a really good way of explaining complicated topics on Twitter.

727
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,960
There have been a couple of times where like someone will say something about secret and

728
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,320
Henry will pop in and be like, well, actually hold on and they'll come away and be like,

729
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,200
I feel like I might have learned something, but more importantly, I might have lost all

730
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,200
respect to myself.

731
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:19,200
That's okay.

732
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,200
Which is the more important thing really, isn't it?

733
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:23,200
Yeah, exactly.

734
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,960
Please, please, please self-respect.

735
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,440
I was towards the end of that.

736
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:32,480
I was like, I literally cannot take up any of Henry's time because we've got a limited

737
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,760
slot and we need to get some value for money.

738
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:43,280
But a friend of mine who's very like cryptography and chaos computer clubby and whatnot in Germany

739
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:48,880
back in the day sent me this sticker, which you see it's one of the when there was the

740
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,520
asylum campaign for Snowden in Germany.

741
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,720
That's one of the stickers from that.

742
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:59,320
It's just sat around here on my guitar in the office.

743
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,600
You know, I remember whenever the snow thing happened, I expected, I didn't expect to happen

744
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:04,600
what happened.

745
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:05,840
I didn't expect him to be vilified.

746
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,640
I thought he would be considered, you know, not a hero necessarily.

747
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,080
I think it's a bit strong, but I thought things were going to go differently.

748
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:19,040
The fact that he's still in exile effectively, it's just wild to me.

749
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,040
It is genuinely baffling, isn't it?

750
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,600
I mean, I would say hero.

751
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:25,600
And I'm not even in the States.

752
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:30,720
Like we're just in a five-eyed country that are affected by your domestic anti-terrorism

753
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:31,720
policies.

754
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:40,600
And yeah, I mean, I think that there's like a, I think if you see like any generational

755
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:46,360
shift in like resistance to mass surveillance or greater awareness of mass events or anything

756
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,680
like that, I think it does genuinely start with Snowden.

757
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:56,120
Like it's really hard to overstate just, and yet still, and like it has kind of been

758
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,760
expunged from the historical record a little bit.

759
00:51:58,760 --> 00:51:59,760
Like,

760
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,000
Well, big brother used to be a joke, right?

761
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,800
You'd be like, you'd be talking about something and be like, oh, big brother's probably listening.

762
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,800
And now you can be like, well, big brother is quite literally listening.

763
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,840
We know for a fact that he's listening right now.

764
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:15,760
We are so the government, not just Jeff Bezos fire Alexa, but also the government via emails.

765
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,320
I mean, but that's the flip side, isn't it?

766
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,960
You can't expect Snowden to be a universal hero in a world where people bring Alexa and

767
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:22,960
throw her in.

768
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,320
This podcast is probably the most secure communication channel we can come up with,

769
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:27,320
actually.

770
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,360
I mean, I was fucking listening to this.

771
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:39,360
I mean, well, I think it's, you said, but like the correct size for dissemination of

772
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:44,200
information, but also resistance to infiltration for a terrorist cell is about three.

773
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:50,120
So you know, by having any listeners, we are already exposing ourselves to severe operational

774
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:51,120
risk.

775
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:55,120
I would say as a government would, they would kill themselves not being able to listen in

776
00:52:55,120 --> 00:53:00,760
on our, our private signal chat, but they would never watch this fucking podcast.

777
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,440
That's basically the same thing.

778
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:08,040
This is a hell of a tangent, but please.

779
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:09,600
This is kind of nice.

780
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,880
There's like, well, even this seems a little bit off kilter.

781
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:17,000
So Reddit recently like changed their API policy, right?

782
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,520
Where the charging Apollo, the Apollo blow up.

783
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:20,680
Yeah, exactly.

784
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:25,040
And what I think is really, really interesting about this is so many of these subreddits have

785
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:26,040
gone dark.

786
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:27,040
They've gone private.

787
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:32,040
So now it used to be that you'd Google something and some of the most helpful links would be

788
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:33,040
from, from Reddit.

789
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,040
You're like, Oh, I need to solve this programming problem.

790
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,640
And then inevitably Reddit, like on programmer humor or something, or something will like

791
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,040
have a pithy answer for what it is.

792
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,360
And that answer is actually true.

793
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:46,680
Well, if all these subreddits are now blacked out, you can no longer find the answers on

794
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,840
Google because you can't actually access the subreddits that have the answer.

795
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:56,200
And the problem there, I think is really interesting because so many communities are like going

796
00:53:56,200 --> 00:54:00,960
to discord now, like almost all of the, the networks that we're on, like their primary

797
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,000
means of communication is discord or telegram.

798
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,320
But those you can't index, right?

799
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:07,320
Those are private.

800
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,560
And so all this information that is being shared in discord can't be indexed.

801
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:12,560
You can't Google it.

802
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,160
You can't look up, Oh, what's the answer to this?

803
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:15,160
We never say discord.

804
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:20,640
And I think that's creating such a big hole of knowledge that I don't know.

805
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,960
I don't know what the answer is, but it makes me push back discord.

806
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:28,680
Do you think it's just that we're at a point now where, you know, everything is all, well,

807
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:36,320
I should know, I guess I would say this because my intellectual basis is the European socialist

808
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,440
left, but everything's a dialectic, obviously.

809
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:46,040
So, you know, it swings one way, then it swings the other way, you know, are we just at a

810
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:52,520
point where we had a very open internet in the early days, governments decided that was

811
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:57,960
great for taking all our data, companies decided it was great for taking all our data.

812
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,720
And so people have gone like, you know, whether that's the reason or some other thing, just

813
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:05,240
you know, convenience or just commercial pressure or whatever, people have gone into these more

814
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:10,040
closed communities where to be fair, a company is still taking and selling your data.

815
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:14,240
So if that was the reason, then don't don't even waste your time, folks.

816
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:20,840
But we're now just at the other end of the pendulum swing and like we can expect more

817
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:26,000
open protocols, more open services in the future or I don't know, it's hard to say,

818
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,000
isn't it?

819
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,000
I think there was a Twitter for the block.

820
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:31,000
It's only.

821
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,000
Yeah, it's nice.

822
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,000
Well, I think the, yeah, okay.

823
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,000
Well, I heard some wanker developed that.

824
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:43,000
Yeah, yeah, I think we can take it as red that be a wine.

825
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:48,640
Yeah, I mean, from a business perspective, I think it makes a lot of sense to have the

826
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,000
groups like isolate like Discord and Telegram and WhatsApp do, right?

827
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:53,400
Like these are quite large communities.

828
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:58,280
I think the sweet Discord is the largest one I'm in and it has like 400,000 people in it.

829
00:55:58,280 --> 00:55:59,280
Right.

830
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:00,280
Like that's pretty big.

831
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:01,280
That's pretty big.

832
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,760
And from Discord, that it's becomes a walled garden.

833
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,920
They have complete control and so it makes perfect sense from a business perspective,

834
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,680
but it doesn't make nearly as much sense from like a user perspective.

835
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,640
Yeah, but it's, I mean, it's all information suck, right?

836
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:16,800
Like the search tools are terrible.

837
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:17,800
It's in the app.

838
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,440
Like you're, you can't really do it across channels or you can do it across channels.

839
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:27,400
You can't do it across domains, whatever servers, I guess, whatever you want to call.

840
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,840
Also, do you feel like the noise is like nonlinear?

841
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,440
I feel like that's fucking garbage.

842
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,960
It's like exponential noise, like absolutely getting out of control.

843
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:44,400
I just noticed a friend of the podcast recently elevated to part-time presenter of the podcast,

844
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,280
Ben Davis has missed the guest.

845
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,120
Missed our guest timing.

846
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:50,120
Great timing.

847
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:51,840
Spectacular timing.

848
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,080
But I mean, from the open web perspective, yes, anything like that should be number one,

849
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:59,600
I don't know if Reddit's the right place for that type of structure, but whatever.

850
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:05,200
But I mean, I agree that it's a huge issue when you can't search that or when those results

851
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,840
get pulled out because the pages are down or whatever else.

852
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:08,840
It's a hassle.

853
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:13,840
And I guess, I guess the, that's the whole point of the, of the, of the whole lockout.

854
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,320
Whatever you want to call it.

855
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:17,320
Yeah.

856
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:18,320
Right.

857
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:23,560
Yeah, but I've been following that guy and, and like Reddit did not do a great job in

858
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,600
terms of how to communicate this in the timelines associate.

859
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,880
That guy who runs Apollo also not the best business negotiator in the world.

860
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,400
Like, like that was like, I'm folding my hands and I'm walking away and blah, blah, blah.

861
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,080
I'm going to make a big deal out of it.

862
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:40,200
And, and like, it's like, you got to put 10 years into this stuff.

863
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,800
You got to think a little bit longer term than that.

864
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,560
But, but yeah, it just seemed like that's just a shit show around.

865
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,720
And I don't, I don't believe I don't believe in Reddit for charging for API defeats.

866
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,840
I think totally reasonable, right?

867
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:56,440
Like they should know, no different than Twitter should have, but what 10 years ago, like if

868
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,000
you want to do a third party and you want to be able to do that, then offer something

869
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,200
that has a value and be able to come up with a reasonable price for that.

870
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:03,200
The hell.

871
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:04,200
Yeah.

872
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,920
I mean, I think that, I mean, the correct, the issue isn't that they are charging for

873
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:07,920
API.

874
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:09,240
It's how much they're charging, right?

875
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,240
Like the conservative estimate for how much they are charging is 20 times more than how

876
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,360
much Reddit actually makes per user.

877
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:15,360
Yeah.

878
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:20,280
Like the core issue that came in to kind of wrap up my thoughts on the subject.

879
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:25,760
A lot of people have been talking about federated instances of replacing Reddit, which is Lemmy,

880
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:32,480
I guess I haven't actually used it or not blue sky, mastodon for Twitter.

881
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,440
And I, I don't know, I tend to disagree.

882
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,360
I have always had a lot of difficulties searching those.

883
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:43,240
So I don't think it really solves the issue of searchability and user friendliness.

884
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,360
I think those like while federated is a really cool concept.

885
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:47,840
I appreciate it.

886
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:52,240
Um, it, one, the user experience sucks to can't search as well.

887
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,440
I don't know if they can be index or some issue with it.

888
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,840
It's like that, that actually the message on stuff is pretty cool.

889
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,120
Like it's kind of like the IBC of Twitter, right?

890
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,840
Like the way that you can, you can be able to move your profile across different servers

891
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,560
and like how that search tool works and like, I don't know how well it scales.

892
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,440
I think it's going to, it's going to find out here pretty soon.

893
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,480
Well, it can, it can search, but can Google index or something.

894
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:20,480
Cause I've never been able to actually like find federated mass servers that I can actually

895
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:21,480
like trend information.

896
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:22,480
Yeah.

897
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:23,480
That's a good question.

898
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,320
We do indexing it might be a bug, not a feature.

899
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:27,800
I think you can, well, true.

900
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:28,800
Yeah, exactly.

901
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,000
I mean, I don't know if I found really good, I mean, being able to search for somebody's

902
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,640
Twitter handles one thing, but finding value on Twitter is a little bit difficult, but,

903
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:39,360
but, um, yeah, yeah, but that was good conversation.

904
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:46,240
So I think, I think that's also like a, maybe a function of the, so I spent a bunch of time

905
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:51,280
in my life working on the federated web in the context of RDF and the thing that that

906
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,680
RDF is linked data.

907
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:55,920
So machine readable data.

908
00:59:55,920 --> 01:00:01,680
It's what Tim Berners-Lee did after the worldwide web, basically is, is okay.

909
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:06,280
What if every database exposes an API endpoint that every other database can speak over a

910
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:07,280
protocol?

911
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:15,640
Um, and then you can make federated queries across all graph databases in the meta network

912
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:17,040
of graph databases.

913
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:21,040
Um, it's a grand vision didn't end up happening.

914
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:26,120
Um, and I always tended to think that the reason for that might be because the focus

915
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,960
was on the data store rather than the protocol itself.

916
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:34,040
And, you know, obviously also it was all XML and so that changed and then Jason LD and

917
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,440
then technology moved on.

918
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:37,440
Right.

919
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:41,440
And also the thing is like key bono, man, like academics fucking bono.

920
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:48,040
If you can just query all data everywhere with machines, um, government bono, um, people

921
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:54,560
who want to do helpful public goods, things bono, nobody's making a whole load of cash.

922
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:58,360
Like the people who care about that kind of shit are like NASA for weather data and combining

923
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:00,600
large graph data sets, you know?

924
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,040
Um, so yeah.

925
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:08,080
I kind of think that like maybe some of the federated like social stuff suffers from the

926
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:13,320
same problem where at least from my understanding of a lot of it, it's not maybe thinking about

927
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:17,600
it from protocol up, which is like maybe a little bit of the benefit of if you start

928
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:21,960
working in smart contracts and ledges is that you almost have to start with the protocol

929
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:27,360
sort of and then sort of define up from there because probably your blockchain is a bit

930
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:28,840
of an abstraction to you.

931
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,200
Unless you're the big brains at Penumbra in which case you're re you're building your

932
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,480
blockchain abstraction as well as you go.

933
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:36,200
Um, so I don't know.

934
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,400
It's hard to say because like obviously like, you know, like Henry was saying, you can't

935
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,040
also build a protocol as a put on like ideal either.

936
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:48,720
Um, so maybe it's just one of those hard engineering problems where you can have, you know, like

937
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:53,000
distributed systems, you can have fast, reliable, whatever.

938
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:54,000
You can't have all three.

939
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:58,640
I can't even remember what the, the three are, you know, the ones that it's fast, reliable

940
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:00,640
and cast, right?

941
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,640
Uh, no, the three.

942
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:04,640
No, no.

943
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:08,880
Well, time, time and cost is definitely one quality time quality cost.

944
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:10,520
I guess reliability is quality.

945
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:14,600
No, I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of like with, with specifically with distributed systems,

946
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:20,360
it's like about replicating and stuff, you know, you can have like, you can have like

947
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,080
essentially finality.

948
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:29,360
You can have, um, it's like, was it finality, liveness and integrity of the three?

949
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:30,920
Something like that.

950
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:32,080
Oh, okay.

951
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,360
So we're talking about like database and stuff with like, which I'm a darning and stuff.

952
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:40,360
And yeah, I was, um, uh, sex, drugs and rock and roll.

953
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,360
I'm just podcast by guy.

954
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,760
On this one.

955
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:50,680
No, it's been muted for an hour and six minutes.

956
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:52,960
Rest of the year.

957
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:53,960
Yeah.

958
01:02:53,960 --> 01:03:00,040
I just, uh, like Henry was a bit big brain and kind of fraud my shit a little bit.

959
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:05,240
And I was just, didn't really have much constructive stuff to add to it.

960
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,400
So I thought I would just shut the fuck up and listen.

961
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:13,360
I mean, his dry humor around the automatic door.

962
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,920
Whenever he threw that one down, it took me a second to like process it.

963
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:17,440
And I was like, I do have those doors.

964
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:18,560
Like I know they do exist.

965
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,080
Like you could do it where it like I should respond to something like that.

966
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:22,080
But, but yeah.

967
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:24,200
Not like that one.

968
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:28,680
I got, I got, got, you got to respect the player of the game.

969
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:29,680
Oh man.

970
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:31,680
I would say about that one.

971
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:33,080
Which surprises me.

972
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:38,160
Cause that, that to me seemed like a pretty like British tier joke.

973
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,560
Like if I would have seen that on a money Python, then I would like it wouldn't surprise

974
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:42,560
me at all.

975
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:43,560
Right.

976
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:47,200
But the, but the shibboleth here is that British people know when we, we meet another British

977
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:48,200
person.

978
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,360
We're like, ah, we both hate each other.

979
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,160
And we hate the world.

980
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:56,720
And we're going to just try and outdo each other in verbal shitposting.

981
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:57,720
This is understood.

982
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:58,720
It's understood.

983
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:00,960
You know, there is, there are rules to the game.

984
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,800
You don't expect it from a Canadian.

985
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,360
Canadian question mark.

986
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:08,360
I had a bit of a moment there.

987
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:15,280
I realized I don't know Henry's nationality, but I maybe think Canadian.

988
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,440
Well they said they lived in the US and that's, I don't know, good enough for me, I guess.

989
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:23,360
And Canadian North American, American.

990
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:25,360
Yeah.

991
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:31,960
This is interesting how the quality of the podcast has gotten done for sure.

992
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:32,960
High level.

993
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:33,960
Yes.

994
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,800
High level cryptography concepts to like, what are you?

995
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:38,360
What Canadian or American?

996
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,920
How many guns you own?

997
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:43,520
How do you feel about them guns?

998
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:45,280
Oh, Canadians have guns too.

999
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:46,280
Right.

1000
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:47,280
Well, right.

1001
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:49,280
You are like more than Mary.

1002
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:51,280
So, we have some casual stuff right?

1003
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:52,800
I was saying just notice this week.

1004
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:56,040
I've also just noticed your screen behind you.

1005
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,800
So that's very much the mood.

1006
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:03,640
So I was going to ask, you know, in the context of, you know, I caught up on last week's episode.

1007
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:04,640
It's great.

1008
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:10,080
The SEC stuff has me asking, is this the end for zombie Shakespeare?

1009
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:12,920
Your screen behind me, behind me, behind you.

1010
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:13,920
Yeah.

1011
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,120
Kind of seems to suggest the answer, huh?

1012
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:17,120
Yeah.

1013
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:18,120
I thought I'd mix it up a little bit.

1014
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:21,960
Can you just program anything on that screen?

1015
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:23,760
If I spend the time actually doing it.

1016
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:24,760
Yeah.

1017
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:25,760
I'll just put the title.

1018
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:26,760
I was like, how much calls today?

1019
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:27,760
I was bored.

1020
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:28,760
Yep.

1021
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:29,760
That's exactly what happened.

1022
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,360
So you did, you did a, before we run out of time this week, you did a bit of a, you

1023
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:34,360
did a poll.

1024
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:36,320
You want to go through your poll findings?

1025
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:38,880
Your Twitter, your Twitter poll?

1026
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:40,760
It wasn't so much of a poll, was it?

1027
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,440
As me shitposting and then seeing what came back.

1028
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:45,440
Yeah.

1029
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,680
So there was, so there was a thing here and it got a little bit silly because obviously

1030
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,680
I forgot that people were going to just go, you should know this, you're on core one.

1031
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:58,880
But I asked a question, which we have asked in this podcast a bunch of times, genuine

1032
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:00,200
non-facetious question.

1033
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:05,040
What are the user needs in Cosmos and what common tasks the user is trying to achieve?

1034
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:08,480
And the TLDR of this is a lot of people replied.

1035
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:10,360
Some people were like, you're on core one.

1036
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:13,520
About, hey, valid point.

1037
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:15,000
Fair point.

1038
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:17,400
I wasn't talking about, I wasn't talking about, you know,

1039
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:18,400
Not about me.

1040
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:19,400
It's not about me.

1041
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:20,400
Yeah.

1042
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:21,400
Yeah.

1043
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:22,400
Yeah.

1044
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:26,680
There were, there were quite a few, yeah, that kind of ilk and some of them from other

1045
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:28,840
project people, people from other projects.

1046
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:32,720
And I was like, that's not so, that's not three stones folks in a band.

1047
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:33,720
They don't know either.

1048
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:34,720
Right.

1049
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:35,720
Let's be nice.

1050
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:40,640
Anyway, the conclusion was there are a bunch of replies.

1051
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:42,840
Some of the better ones.

1052
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,520
Jorge from Stargaze said all roads lead to NFTs.

1053
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,120
Wait, what was the question?

1054
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:51,360
So genuine non-facetious question.

1055
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:52,880
What are the user needs in Cosmos?

1056
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,080
What tasks are, what common tasks are people trying to achieve?

1057
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:57,080
Users, users.

1058
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:01,720
Like I don't want to know about fucking stakes and tokens sit on them for five years, just

1059
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:03,880
making money, not a user need to me.

1060
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:05,240
Like it is a user need.

1061
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:06,240
Some people it's not that interesting.

1062
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:07,240
It's a byproduct of user need.

1063
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:08,240
Yeah.

1064
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:09,240
Exactly.

1065
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:11,840
They need to be able to run and track their stats is what they need.

1066
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:12,840
Yes.

1067
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:13,840
He knows it.

1068
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:14,840
He knows it.

1069
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:15,840
Especially to me, like what was it?

1070
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:16,840
$44 a day at peak?

1071
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:17,840
Something like that.

1072
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:18,840
$142 a day.

1073
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:19,840
What is that?

1074
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:20,840
I have no words.

1075
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:21,840
Wait, which one are you talking about?

1076
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:22,840
You talking about the nearest thing?

1077
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:24,840
I think in like the economist, this is how mental it was.

1078
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:28,640
It was like the economist had like an infographic like peak crypto market, what people were

1079
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:33,840
making potentially per day on those step-ups just by sending the data and then getting $45

1080
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:34,840
just walking around.

1081
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:39,480
It was like, you could, you could, if you, if you like, like we all now do, we all obviously

1082
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,400
work at McDonald's again now.

1083
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:46,840
So you know, you can make more than your McDonald's job by just harvesting those shitcoins.

1084
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:52,240
Man, I would have played Pokemon Go and took it steps every day if I had known that.

1085
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:54,600
God, I'm so far behind the frigging.

1086
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:56,280
Anyway, go ahead.

1087
01:07:56,280 --> 01:08:00,280
So yeah, so there's some good, like I said, there was a good response to that.

1088
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:04,000
Obviously, Hawa is one of my favorites all roads, lead to NFTs, which genuinely I think

1089
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:08,520
actually their users are certainly asking to fucking mint NFTs and then do lots of tasks

1090
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:09,520
with NFTs.

1091
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:13,480
And the definition of NFT will change like that's that answer has layers.

1092
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:14,480
Yeah.

1093
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,240
I mean, there's a lot of their, Hawa is pretty smart.

1094
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:19,680
We're big fans of Hawa.

1095
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:27,320
So Simon Water from Confio, Cosmwazem, another one of the show, asked, asked, also Big Brain

1096
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:31,200
asked, do you have users?

1097
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:37,640
You have users, which I think actually also neatly sums up the problem for a lot of the

1098
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:39,920
Cosmos.

1099
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:46,760
Instant Jesus on Twitter said, easy, find out what blockchains are actually for.

1100
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,120
First step one, find out what?

1101
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:51,320
Step one, I don't know what they're for.

1102
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:52,320
Step two, question mark.

1103
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:56,520
Love, love that answer.

1104
01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:06,320
So yeah, Brain Tricks said, we unironically aren't there yet.

1105
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:10,720
So very behind in apps, let alone things to do that aren't financially driven.

1106
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:12,960
I think we would all agree with that.

1107
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:15,080
These are the highlights of the comments.

1108
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:17,160
The other ones just yelling at you basically.

1109
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:18,640
Dragatory comments.

1110
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:19,640
Yeah.

1111
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:20,640
And then a car.

1112
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:28,600
And then Zeke, another friend of the podcast and Dada Superdev basically said, make friends,

1113
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:37,720
ship post by Bad Kids, which I think are actually three completely valid use cases for the Cosmos.

1114
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:43,800
So there was a bunch of also discussion around on chain entities and stuff, which a lot of

1115
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:49,480
it was quite like aspirational for the future would be my way of putting it.

1116
01:09:49,480 --> 01:09:53,720
But I will allow for a start on chain entity because it is a fully novel use case.

1117
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:55,480
And obviously we're big fans of Dada on the show.

1118
01:09:55,480 --> 01:10:03,240
So the conclusion of me posting that question and then harvesting the responses for engagement

1119
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:09,960
for three days and getting 10,000 or so impressions as well in the process was buy and trade Bad

1120
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:16,520
Kids, make money because it is one, even if I don't, I'm not so bothered.

1121
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:19,080
And then number three, start an on chain entity.

1122
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,480
Those were the three actual use cases.

1123
01:10:21,480 --> 01:10:26,800
And maybe the real dows were the friends we made along the way to paraphrase what Zeke

1124
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:28,360
definitely was not saying.

1125
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:29,360
So, yeah.

1126
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,320
So on chain entity, which I, that's a good use case.

1127
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:35,800
That's a real use case, which is going to take some time.

1128
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:36,800
It's real use case.

1129
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:39,000
It's not a 2023 type of thing.

1130
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:40,000
I don't think.

1131
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:41,000
Okay.

1132
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:42,000
For sure.

1133
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:43,000
I'd be surprised if it was.

1134
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:48,680
The rest of these are all a bit either facises or whatever.

1135
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,840
So did you get any real answers?

1136
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:51,840
Anything else?

1137
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:52,840
Well, so, okay.

1138
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:53,840
So, the right.

1139
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:58,880
So I apologize in advance to anybody that's listening right now because I'm going to have

1140
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:00,480
to show something on the stream.

1141
01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:03,440
We'll put it in the show notes.

1142
01:11:03,440 --> 01:11:04,440
What's going on here.

1143
01:11:04,440 --> 01:11:09,520
But what the purpose of this entire thing was at the moment, I'm working with a bunch

1144
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:15,720
of product people in my day job and I'm reminded of product maturity mapping, right?

1145
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:25,000
Where you do something like this, where you have a value chain and you show where, how

1146
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:27,480
mature a product is, right?

1147
01:11:27,480 --> 01:11:31,160
If you can create a product that's over on the left there in the Genesis area where you

1148
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:36,840
have to do actual R&D to work out whether this thing even has a market and then take

1149
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:41,920
it to maturity, like commodity, you make a, that's how you make a billion dollars, right?

1150
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:45,160
This is literally the product development matrix for how you make a billion dollars.

1151
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:51,520
Like it was originally the person who did Wardley mapping, Simon Wardley was, my understanding

1152
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:56,520
is the commercial guy who was tasked with taking Ubuntu from a tiny percentage of the

1153
01:11:56,520 --> 01:12:01,320
server market to being the definition of a commodity where you say, I want web server,

1154
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:05,600
don't care about what web server is, give me server and they give you an Ubuntu server

1155
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:06,600
by default.

1156
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:07,600
Right.

1157
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:08,600
Which is what you want.

1158
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:10,640
When you ask for a server that isn't Ubuntu server or you are basically Ubuntu turns

1159
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:11,640
into that definition.

1160
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:12,640
Yeah.

1161
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:19,680
So he has a little bit, his presentation style is a bit annoying, but I feel like he might

1162
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:23,800
a little bit have credibility within that.

1163
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:28,720
The other definition of utility of course is literally buying your electricity.

1164
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:32,320
If you make a builder buy a decision as a business, you're not going to be like, we're

1165
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:34,680
going to build our own energy grid lads.

1166
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:36,560
You're going to buy energy.

1167
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:41,240
You're going to buy your internet, your natural gas depending on which country you're in.

1168
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:49,600
So, and this then was me throwing two use cases that came out of this actual discussion

1169
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:51,320
on a wardly map, right?

1170
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:55,680
And it's a bit shit map because I did it in about 10 minutes before the show tonight.

1171
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:56,920
And you can't really read it.

1172
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:58,080
So sorry about that.

1173
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:00,200
But the left one is created now.

1174
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:06,280
The right one is send user tokens with some financial value.

1175
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:10,920
And so you can see like the things here that are super mature, right?

1176
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:12,040
RPCs are pretty mature.

1177
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:15,040
They're very fungible validators in theory are quite fungible.

1178
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:18,600
There's a stable coin down there, the Cosmos SDK.

1179
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:21,400
So these are all the things that the further you go down, the more hidden they are from

1180
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:22,960
a user, right?

1181
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:27,280
But what's super interesting is that if you want to send somebody anything with value,

1182
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:31,240
eventually I figure you get to taxes at the bottom there.

1183
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:38,560
But a lot of the stuff around the DAO stuff, it stays over here in this really custom interesting

1184
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:43,960
product area where it's valuable, it's new, its value isn't defined yet, and it's just

1185
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:46,080
waiting to be commoditized.

1186
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:50,360
So it makes me think a lot of that financial type stuff, again, we kind of go on about

1187
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:52,360
users needs about real products.

1188
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:57,360
A lot of the financial stuff is still like, it's very hard to define without it touching

1189
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:00,440
the real world, whereas that DAO stuff is just there.

1190
01:14:00,440 --> 01:14:04,600
It's in a new product area, it's waiting to be commodified.

1191
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:09,960
So anyway, that was me during my conference course today doing work that I shouldn't have

1192
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:14,080
been doing, was doing a wardley map about DAOs.

1193
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:19,440
So I hope people on the stream enjoyed that slightly insane diversion.

1194
01:14:19,440 --> 01:14:23,960
I'm so happy that after 66 episodes we finally got into PowerPoints on stream.

1195
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:27,240
We've got a problem around here.

1196
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:31,600
Here is my business development thesis from Cosmos.

1197
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:32,600
Hold on, kids.

1198
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:33,600
This is the thing, Mike.

1199
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:40,680
I have been accused on many occasions of not having a strategy or a plan in terms of the

1200
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:42,920
projects that I had to face with.

1201
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:47,560
I literally just presented a PowerPoint on the show.

1202
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:53,320
So when I unironically say that, yes, I don't do Twitter spaces, but you can join Game of

1203
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:59,600
NERC 2100 every Wednesday, you could have a PowerPoint about my thesis on GNI.

1204
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:00,600
That's right.

1205
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,120
Thanks for the TED talk.

1206
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:04,680
Thank you, Rama.

1207
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:09,480
You are an inspiration, as always, to my aspirations to become more corporate.

1208
01:15:09,480 --> 01:15:13,480
Not only do taxes get mentioned, taxes got mentioned on a PowerPoint.

1209
01:15:13,480 --> 01:15:14,800
Fucking amazing.

1210
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:15,800
This podcast is awesome.

1211
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:17,680
It's a value that they blow as well.

1212
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:19,960
It's like all the good.

1213
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:22,080
Not only do we piss people off with the PowerPoint, but we...

1214
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:24,240
Taxes was in a box with an arrow going to it.

1215
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:25,240
It's fucking awesome.

1216
01:15:25,240 --> 01:15:28,000
And it was the end of the boxes.

1217
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,120
Like everything leads to taxes.

1218
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:34,640
Eventually, all this shit you do ends up in taxes in a box.

1219
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:35,640
It's amazing.

1220
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:40,640
And in some way, it wouldn't have any value without those taxes because it turns out the

1221
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:44,080
entire thing is a massive circle tax.

1222
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:45,080
Everything is.

1223
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:49,280
No, you said something really perfect there, but I think you're on mute.

1224
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:50,280
It wasn't important.

1225
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:51,280
God damn it.

1226
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:55,400
The one thing, the one time.

1227
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:59,160
One thing I want to throw in there is with the question of what are users trying to achieve,

1228
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:00,920
like what are common tasks and whatever.

1229
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:03,120
I want to talk about the opposite.

1230
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:10,100
I think the go-to conversation piece for what crypto can do is for NFT-ing mortgages or

1231
01:16:10,100 --> 01:16:11,360
house deeds.

1232
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:13,520
And I think that's a horrible use case.

1233
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:16,800
That's a rubbish use case in my opinion.

1234
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:18,080
Everyone brings it up.

1235
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:22,320
But they talk about how much simpler it could be to get a mortgage.

1236
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:23,440
And there's a lot of protections there.

1237
01:16:23,440 --> 01:16:24,800
There needs to be a lot of protections there.

1238
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:29,720
When there isn't, 2008 happens again, right?

1239
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:30,720
And God, I don't know.

1240
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:34,720
So if you have, if you can transfer deeds simply, fine, great, whatever.

1241
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:37,840
But there would need to be better handling of your keys.

1242
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:38,840
You lose your keys.

1243
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:41,520
Therefore, you lose the deed to your house permanently.

1244
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:42,520
Come on now.

1245
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:44,520
That's insanity, isn't it?

1246
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,120
But there's a reason that these things are literally held by the state that you pay taxes

1247
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:53,360
to so they provide public goods for people that live in the country.

1248
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:58,720
And it's so that if you do lose that stuff, you go to whatever the equivalent of, actually,

1249
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:00,800
to be fair, I don't think it is some house anymore.

1250
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:06,480
But whatever the equivalent of that is in both the UK and the US, and you say, hi, my

1251
01:17:06,480 --> 01:17:07,480
name's Frey.

1252
01:17:07,480 --> 01:17:09,320
I have a mortgage.

1253
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:12,280
I need to find out about the property deed.

1254
01:17:12,280 --> 01:17:13,280
It's this address.

1255
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:15,000
Here's my driving license.

1256
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,480
So you know, I'm not some fucking random.

1257
01:17:17,480 --> 01:17:19,360
That does exist though.

1258
01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:21,360
Because I used it last year, actually.

1259
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:26,600
I was actually doing a quick Google on who we used because I was doing something with

1260
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:30,600
a family member's home figure, figures who I use.

1261
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:31,920
So they're not actually...

1262
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:32,920
An NFT.

1263
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:33,920
No, no, no, no, no.

1264
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:34,920
It wasn't that piece.

1265
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:38,160
They were just using the blockchain throughout the REFI process.

1266
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,440
So they were using it to...

1267
01:17:40,440 --> 01:17:41,920
I mean, you can go look and see.

1268
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:44,240
I think it's figure.com if I remember correctly.

1269
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:45,240
REFI?

1270
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:46,240
Is that Regenerative Finance?

1271
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:47,240
No, REFI isn't.

1272
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:48,240
I have a mortgage.

1273
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:50,240
I want to refinance that mortgage.

1274
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:52,320
That's what I mean there.

1275
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:55,520
But also, I think this was...

1276
01:17:55,520 --> 01:18:03,720
I was doing a REFI or a bridge for somebody, or a HELOC as they call it, like a home equity

1277
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:05,640
line of credit.

1278
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:07,800
And I think figure uses it as...

1279
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:08,800
Who knows?

1280
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:09,800
It might be mostly marketing.

1281
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:10,800
Who gives it?

1282
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:11,800
Oh, the fuck.

1283
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:15,040
But they use it, I think, as items come in and as documents get produced, I think they're

1284
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:21,560
using the chain somehow in terms of ensuring that throughout this process that there's

1285
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:23,080
some sort of integrity there.

1286
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:24,080
But you can look and...

1287
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:25,080
I think it's figure.com.

1288
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:26,440
I'll put a link in the show notes as well.

1289
01:18:26,440 --> 01:18:27,680
But we use them...

1290
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:28,680
I think I use them.

1291
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:31,560
It was 2021, actually, a couple of years ago.

1292
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:33,880
So I think that that's a valid use case.

1293
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:37,160
Making sure the validity of each state of the process makes sense.

1294
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:42,600
Similarly, the discussion of supply chain on blockchain makes sense.

1295
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:44,240
I'd actually do that if that makes sense.

1296
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:50,080
If you are making a claim that you are having organic goods or whatever, or that everything

1297
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:51,080
is built...

1298
01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:52,080
No, no.

1299
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:53,080
Okay.

1300
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:54,080
I don't know.

1301
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:55,080
That got killed, right?

1302
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:56,720
Because SAP had that huge thing with MERSC, right?

1303
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:58,080
And that got shit can't do.

1304
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:01,680
Or no, IBM and MERSC had that huge blockchain project that they were doing, trying to do

1305
01:19:01,680 --> 01:19:06,040
global shipping container structures on the chain, and that all fucking died.

1306
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:07,560
But that might have been because it was too large.

1307
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:08,960
They might have been trying to do it globally.

1308
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:11,880
I think it's too slow and too large.

1309
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:12,880
Is it tenorment?

1310
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:14,440
Or is it corporate social responsibility thing?

1311
01:19:14,440 --> 01:19:15,440
Six-second block times the...

1312
01:19:15,440 --> 01:19:16,440
That's an ever what?

1313
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:17,440
It's a container.

1314
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:18,840
How fast does it need to be?

1315
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:22,440
No, it would be in just slightly amount of data, I think, is the problem.

1316
01:19:22,440 --> 01:19:26,840
But when it comes to corporate social responsibility, which is the other thing you hear about,

1317
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:31,680
I think, like, Shorthy was kind of getting at that use case, like, organics, fair trade,

1318
01:19:31,680 --> 01:19:33,600
anti-slavery, that kind of stuff.

1319
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:38,160
The point is that ultimately it has to be certified by somebody on the ground who can

1320
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:39,520
just falsify the record.

1321
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:45,640
And the primary problem you have with certification is the certification itself.

1322
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,760
So the blockchain doesn't solve that.

1323
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:54,400
And there is actually at least one that I know of, but multiple projects that have tried

1324
01:19:54,400 --> 01:20:00,120
to do this with a relatively credible team, a relatively credible set of advisors, and

1325
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:04,360
absolutely smashed into a brick wall because everybody in the industry just went, look,

1326
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:08,680
the certification you're looking for already exists over here, and it's expensive.

1327
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:12,840
There's a reason it's expensive because they have to send people out or they have to have

1328
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:15,280
people in country to do XYZ.

1329
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:16,800
And the technology doesn't matter.

1330
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:20,000
It can be an MS access database.

1331
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:21,160
It can be a spreadsheet.

1332
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:25,800
It can be a big piece of paper because at the end, they can be a folder with all the

1333
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:30,120
certifications sent back from the people who are qualified to make that certification.

1334
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,240
But the database is not the problem.

1335
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:36,960
And if data integrity is a problem, put JSON schema in front of your database and you're

1336
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:39,960
done, you can still have your MS access data.

1337
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:40,960
Hot take.

1338
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:47,080
Hey, I used to work on a lot of data integration stuff and there are a lot of different ways

1339
01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:51,600
of solving the schema registry thing in terms of data integrity.

1340
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:52,880
Blockchain is just one of many.

1341
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:55,760
It's a very slow way of achieving that.

1342
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:58,440
So no new use cases for your Twitter poll then?

1343
01:20:58,440 --> 01:21:00,440
That's what you're saying?

1344
01:21:00,440 --> 01:21:03,440
Is that okay?

1345
01:21:03,440 --> 01:21:07,400
Could Bad Kids get us out of the barrel?

1346
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:09,320
So I voted no on this stride thing.

1347
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:17,440
So somebody want to talk about this governance proposal on stride buying Bad Kids as an asset?

1348
01:21:17,440 --> 01:21:18,440
Go ahead.

1349
01:21:18,440 --> 01:21:22,120
I voted no because I thought it was like Degenerate shit.

1350
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:26,240
But do you guys want to at least talk about what that is?

1351
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:28,320
I mean, what's more to say, I guess.

1352
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:33,440
Bad Kids wants to buy Bad Kids with I think community funds, right?

1353
01:21:33,440 --> 01:21:35,240
But I haven't looked too much into the prop to be honest.

1354
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:38,440
I read it and it was just like, Jesus.

1355
01:21:38,440 --> 01:21:44,800
So ultimately they want to take user dollars that are real dollars flowing in and buy NFTs,

1356
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:45,960
right?

1357
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:52,120
And be able to hold those NFTs as an asset that could grow over a period of time.

1358
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:57,200
Is this a separate pool or this gets folded into an existing pool of some sort?

1359
01:21:57,200 --> 01:21:58,200
I'm not sure.

1360
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:00,000
I think we need to look more into it.

1361
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:05,200
If their goal here is to take stride from the community pool, buy Bad Kids and put Bad

1362
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:09,440
Kids in the community pool so the community can then do something with it if it went up

1363
01:22:09,440 --> 01:22:10,960
in value or whatever, fine.

1364
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:16,120
I don't really care too much about diversification.

1365
01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:17,680
I care deeply about diversification.

1366
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:20,480
I don't want to make a big point out of it.

1367
01:22:20,480 --> 01:22:22,000
You can make an argument in a different way.

1368
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:25,880
And Bad Kids are the de facto blue chip NFT of the cosmos.

1369
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:31,000
And by extension, you would be giving credence to the cosmos.

1370
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:32,000
Which is fine.

1371
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:33,000
Fine.

1372
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:34,000
I'm fine with that.

1373
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:35,000
It is what they're doing, right?

1374
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:38,080
I mean, I'm not talking about Bad and Bad Kids.

1375
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:39,760
We hold a shitload, right?

1376
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:44,360
But you're basically saying that it's an asset that has the ability to grow over time.

1377
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:47,760
And so if that asset's going to grow, I'm treating it as a security.

1378
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:48,760
Hello.

1379
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:52,800
And I'm treating this NFT as something that has value that I'm expecting them to buy.

1380
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:56,120
It's going to increase in value based on the work of others, in essence.

1381
01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:58,320
So I thought it was a bit too, D-Gen.

1382
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:03,600
I thought it was a bit too early in this life cycle to me.

1383
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:04,600
But I don't know.

1384
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:05,600
I voted no.

1385
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:06,600
Everybody's shit on me for it.

1386
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:07,600
They could vote their own shares.

1387
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:08,600
The fucking validator thing.

1388
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:09,600
You shouldn't be voting anyway.

1389
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:11,000
Yeah, I agree.

1390
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:17,000
I still like the idea of Aptos's method of doing it, where a voter and validator are

1391
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:18,000
separate in theory.

1392
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:20,200
They can't have them the same.

1393
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:21,200
Whether they can.

1394
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:22,200
Yeah.

1395
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:23,200
I wish.

1396
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:24,200
Yeah.

1397
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:26,200
I don't feel qualified to vote on all these things.

1398
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:27,200
Seriously.

1399
01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:28,200
Right.

1400
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:32,000
Like this situation, like it's a whole thing is like people look to validators for incredible

1401
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:34,680
guidance around these types of issues.

1402
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:38,560
And I agree that you're more involved, so therefore you have more opinion around it.

1403
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:55,560
But that doesn't make them an authoritative source on what the right thing is to do.