the code hands. I'm like, yeah, fuck that guy.
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the Cosmos from independent
validated teams.
Hello, welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the Cosmos from
independent validated teams. And we got rugged again. We actually, so
short C arranged a guest, got it squared away, and we got rugged. So is
that now happening next week?
I got fucking rugged.
You're aware of how this podcast works, right?
Yeah, it was pretty rude, though. And this fucking, that was a bait.
That was a bait. We never baited before. That was a total bait.
All I can say is,
good to be a good judge. You die by this. Wait, hang on a minute.
They had that has other implications, but
all I could hear was, what was that?
What was that movie with the when the guy goes ahead in time and everybody's
stupid, you baiting? Idiocracy. Idiocracy.
That was a bait. You baiting.
So I had last debating.
Yeah, there you go.
Mastery.
Everybody's caught up. Yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about.
OK, we're all caught up. So, hey, so I had a go to conference in Amsterdam
next week, so I may or may not be on the poddo,
but I had a message from a friend, a friend of all of us, a valerator team,
the artifact guys are literally getting a fucking houseboat in Amsterdam.
Yeah, I was like, John is the craziest shit.
He's bored. That's so fucking cool.
And I don't know, maybe they maybe they found like the the sickest deal on a houseboat.
But I was like, that's really bored.
I'd air have like a two second look and was just like,
shit, so I'm not with these Cosmos prices like a houseboat,
more like a fucking before like a rowboat, maybe just like a sleeping bag.
It's an aptos fucking houseboat.
But John knows how to reward himself. He does.
Yeah.
That's the outlet.
Well, it works hard and then balls hard at fucking conferences.
Well, I guess you guys you guys know, because you've you've done the you've done
the artifact Cosmos, the artifact conference experience,
where I'm yet to ride that roller coaster.
So you're not staying at the houseboat, is that what you're saying?
I'm not staying at the houseboat.
No, not with the party boat is probably incompatible
with the very small human that needs shepherds.
Oh, you're breaking the whole family.
Oh, are you taking the bean?
Yeah, it's like the logistical.
It's just like the fact that it's a long like the with the the thing that I need to go for
plus the actual conference itself, it's being away for five days.
There's a train strike at this end.
So once you add on the Euro star each end, I'm way for seven days.
And it seems super unfair to be away for seven days and do absolutely no anything.
Like not even be around in the morning or anything like, I don't know,
it just seemed really lame.
So just like, look, I will.
Yeah, I'm going to carry carry the wee one across on the train system and take a
take a take a travel cop, make a make a bit of an adventure of it.
We all good.
That's is it your first trip as a three-some?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, no, it's a second.
We obviously did some charity bike ride up in the late district
beginning of May.
So we had to go up there.
Yeah. You know, no.
It's very funny.
The bike ride.
What's that?
The full crew came for the bike ride.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's a it's a big, big charity events called the Fred Whitton
and says like, it's 2,500 people ride it every year, something like that.
And then there's obviously a lot of people who come to the finish.
And like, like it's a really big deal in the lakes, like, because it's basically
in memory of this guy who died, who was one of the organizers of the Lakes Road
Road Club cycling racing calendar.
Sorry.
He died very young of cancer.
So they arranged a very, very hard course in his memory.
But like, literally, you will cycle through some tiny little town
six a.m. in the morning and they'll be like, you know, an old lady outside
her house with a cowbell being like, like, yeah, as like, as like a thousand
cyclists cycle past like they're like, good effort, good effort.
And you're like, it's six a.m.
Why are you up?
It's like a Sunday morning.
Like go back to bed.
Enjoy your life.
I don't know why we're up.
They probably have no alerts.
Fucking page duty going off.
Yeah, they're all casals validators up there.
Yeah, maybe maybe that's who like no drill or somebody really is.
It was that.
That old lady at that little cottage.
She's got the data center in her shed.
That's how it works out here.
Yeah.
So, so, I guess it's like a big event.
There's loads of people there and have that have the little mini ear defenders
because there's like a like some there's like a cover band.
Like I think last year was like an Elvis impersonator this year.
It's kind of like, I think it's like a Strokes cover band or something like that.
And it was like, it's so like, it's so like rural, like it's like a salt of the stroke.
You go to a rural place.
There's like a dire straight cover band or something.
You're like, yeah, we're in the countryside now.
When you say ear defender, are you talking about like some weird little earmuffs?
Yeah, yeah.
Because there is a sense to like that, that age apparently.
I say, I would have not even, I had no idea there's a thing, but apparently
if you like, you take a wee one to like a concert or like something like that,
or like a super big event with like thousands of people making loads of noise.
You have to put little defenders on them and then you get this comedy,
tiny little ones that have to kind of.
Yeah, it's like too much.
It's very funny.
It looks very funny.
I'll say that.
But then because they're also so small, but they've got that age where they recognize you
and they're excited to see you.
So you just see this tiny human with this big headband, these massive things inside
this head just go like, like that startled look when they're like, I recognize you
and you're like, I'm back.
Been suffering for nine hours, but I'm back.
So anyway, what's been happening this week?
That'd be cool.
We can Amsterdam.
Yeah.
It'd be fun.
Yeah, it'll be.
I mean, I kind of just want to see, like I feel like there are people who are much better
at networking and business.
Yes, there are.
There are.
All right.
Yeah.
Okay.
Ha ha.
No, no, I mean, from you, like all of us, but yes, I agree.
We'll show.
But I feel like art is particularly good.
Yeah.
And I want to kind of like.
And the phrase, what is the conference that you're going to?
It's like a big FinTech conference.
It's called Money 2020.
Money 2020.
Money.
Yeah.
I've heard of that stuff.
Would you believe it?
Because it has like, I think an open visitor book or something for other attendees, the
number of fucking server type companies that have since got in touch, since I got a pass,
they were just like, hey, what do you mean server type companies?
Like, like, you know, like, you know, like hosting.
Hosters?
Data center.
Oh, really?
You know, being at the end of the day, you know, you can go to custom racks for you,
that kind of stuff.
And like all of the various tiers of I want to build a data center from like, you know,
the actual, you know, we'll manage it for you to, we'll actually assemble blades for
you.
Quite a lot of people were like, which is weird because we didn't really describe what
we do as a company in the most honest terms.
It doesn't matter.
Hetzner awkwardly absent from the conference.
We don't want Mr. Hetzner finding out.
Big H.
Big H, yeah.
It's like walking around the conference making notes, needle cast.
100% getting busted.
You can't everywhere here.
Fucking they go to their client list.
And it's motherfucker.
Yes, this goes on.
Yeah, I do.
2020.
Yeah.
It's like, it's a very weird looking conference.
Let me be honest.
So there's a couple, basically there's a couple of side events.
Plus obviously seeing the, the OGs, the legends that are the artifact folks.
But it's, I just have the feeling it's going to be a very weird conference compared to
like, I think the last one I went to was, was gateway last year, which couldn't really
be more different.
It's like a small niche cosmos conference.
I'm, I'm sorry, Frey.
Did you purchase a standard pass for this money?
2020?
No, no.
That's what you said earlier.
Heat.
3,695 euros.
I know, right?
It's outrageous.
Fucking.
But like conferences are expensive, dude.
But you know, like even I could come up with this one, but it was another one where I,
again, I was like talking about like, holy shit, this year is expensive.
Like, obviously it was one last year.
It was like a, maybe it was token 2049 or something like that where I was just like,
man, who's going to pay like whatever the number was, $3,000 to go to a conference.
And an artifact was like, if you can't, if you can't make back $3,000 in new business
from a conference, what are you doing?
And I was like, artifacts, I cannot make back $3,000 in new business.
I was like, hold my beer.
Yeah.
The other John Travolta beam of the light.
That was kind of his reaction.
He was like, there's all these rooms full of people that you could make money off.
What is it?
John's fun to watch because he'll just go through and just chronologically go to every
single person in a room and then go to the next room and hit every single person in the
room and then go to the next room and hit every single person in the room.
It takes a special type of somebody to go kiss 1000 frogs.
It really does.
Like, and like that's a compliment because that's what it is.
Like you just have conversations about anybody with anything just to see.
And every 1000 you meet somebody's like, Oh yeah, by the way, I'm the CEO of giant big
balls capital and I'm looking for a validator to run my $200 million thing and nobody's talking
to me.
And then you're like, Oh yeah, 999 frogs later, you get to another one of those.
And like, you're more of a Johnny Small balls.
But that's like, but that's how it happens.
I mean, that literally you have to kiss 1000 frogs to find it.
Right.
And well, it takes a lot of energy to do that.
Yeah.
I was kind of being like, what is it?
And yeah, you're saying that, yeah, you just need to talk to a lot of people.
You do.
Yeah.
And a lot of those pass go nowhere.
You might spend money with them.
You might, right?
You might provide them with something X, Y or Z or project, turn to nothing.
Like it's kind of, but you really have to, it's, and it's really, it's mentally exhausting.
Yeah.
Really mentally exhausting.
So you all think, I think it's the fray.
How, how did you get in here?
You are sneaking in the back door or did you get like some sort of free pass action?
Let's, let's just say that the vetting process that you have to go through to get any kind
of a fucking discount under any of the discount categories is ridiculously, ridiculously thorough
to a point that I, if I had known, I probably wouldn't have bothered, but I was downed if
I wasn't going to get the super cheap pass.
Once, once, once I actually had to start providing evidence, I was like, right, this is now a
game.
The great thing about us as a company is like, we are
Diversified.
We are a consultancy to do a number of things and we work in and out of web three and we
have like other projects that they're just not relevant to this podcast at all.
And so like, essentially there's, we do just enough random crap that if you really big up
any one of these tiny little things we've done over the last two years, you can kind of make
up anything if you just really commit to it.
And it's like that kind of thing where you can't go like, well, this project is really
like, you know, it was a great project for us and it's now our focus going forward or
something like that.
And people are like, that was a four week project one and a half years ago.
And you're like, yeah, but we feel like as a business that is the area we want to develop.
Really, really leaning on that.
And you need to show us some evidence you are actually developing this area of your business.
How many people even work for you?
You're like, right, okay, it's time to really lose count.
I lose count.
In the UK or global?
Yeah, exactly.
I'm just like, look, you're asking a big dog to count how many of the Jimmy Smallbore's
are in the building.
And I couldn't tell you, I couldn't tell you.
Maybe go look at our Wikipedia page.
And we have like some indicative numbers of our head office capacity or something like
because there is no building.
Maybe there is no building.
That actually was the thing that recently happened on a contract was I asked how many
people, sorry, I was like, sorry, don't question how many people actually work for the company
as a total because I'm really struggling to get a handle on the context.
And literally I asked that like three or four senior people, they had no idea.
The fourth person was like, I don't know, it's somewhere between 500 and 5000.
Hey, you know what?
Wikipedia might know and they were right.
It had like a rough head count of Wikipedia.
And then later on I did actually find somebody who knew and they gave me the exact number.
And Wikipedia was in like 45 people out or something.
It was like uncannily close.
I should have asked chat.
You would have got the correct answer straight away.
That's right.
Correct answer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or it would have gas lit you and been like, there's only two people that work there.
Here's my sources.
Yeah, of course, I'm telling the truth.
Yeah, at this point it's like you're right against mine, right?
Yeah, it's done that to me a couple of times where I ask a question.
It's like verifiably wrong and it's like, nah, I'm right.
Here are my sources and the source doesn't exist.
What are you talking about?
I've asked some code and it's like gives me wrong shit and I'm like, that's not right.
Can you try again?
They're like, yeah, no worries.
Use this.
You would just ask it to do rust, right?
Because if you ask it to do rust, it will get it close but wrong.
And then the rust compiler has the auto complete stuff where it tells you why you're wrong.
So the code's wrong.
And then the rust compiler is like, yo, that code is really wack.
But hey, I can't even remember this.
I mean, just do it for you.
You can take back 2.8b to fix it.
Yeah, and your text editor usually will have like, oh, accept suggestion from the rust compiler.
And so you can literally just black at this point.
You don't have to do any work ever again.
You can just be like, hey, this is wrong.
And then a compiler is like, these types of wack.
Would you like me to fix them?
Clippy style.
And you're like, damn right, rust me.
Rust me timbers.
Clippy style.
Clippy me.
I'm sure we tout, ah, yeah, anyway, whatever.
Hey, have you seen that thing where this is a bit off topic?
Everything's a bit off topic, really, isn't it?
We haven't talked about Cosmos once in 16 minutes.
But except for mentioning that we did have a Cosmos guest and we got rugged.
I don't think we talked about 3 fucking episodes.
What's that?
I don't think we've talked about Cosmos in three episodes.
Has anything happened to the Cosmos for three episodes?
Have you seen that?
Have you seen that React library where it's just Windows 95?
No.
It's super awesome.
It's called React 95, I think.
And it basically is a React website that is the desktop from Windows 95.
And it even works.
You can open up some of the things.
And then it's really cool.
But you can obviously then use it to make your own React Windows 95-type website if you were so inclined.
I almost did it when rebuilding the Envoys website.
And I was just like, this is not going to go down well with a corporate client on the consulting side of the business.
So I reluctantly, with a heavy heart, decided not to do it.
But I just think, yeah, I think React 95 is so, so cool.
Because I'm a complete loser.
So, yeah.
No exactly plot twist.
I can see the faces of everybody looking up React 95 and being pleasantly surprised by what they've found.
It's amazing.
It's pretty awesome.
I was a bit like recommending it, but now I'm happy.
Speaking of amazing things.
Steve, I miss you.
Steve, where have you been?
Where is he?
Steve was in charge of the Cosmos. The price wouldn't be tanking, would they?
It'd be up only.
Would it?
Still be running Windows 95.
Well, now I've said it.
Oh, hey.
I promise tanking.
I didn't notice.
No, not really.
It's been up.
Hey, I've just found this meme, which is really related to what Shorsi was said about chat GPT.
We've put quite a lot of good little memes in the show thing over the years.
I think this is maybe my favorite, though.
Also factually correct for this week.
It was a national holiday here, so I had the weekend off and came back to like 500, 600 notifications.
I was like, ah, Jacob is my guest.
I wasn't wrong.
Wait, what are you talking about?
Oh, the whatever drama happened over the weekend, lots of drama.
The fucking explosion with wind and who was the other one?
I didn't see any of this.
Oh, shit.
You've lived.
Just delete fucking everything and don't look at it.
Wait, what happened?
Oh, we can talk cosmos.
All right, we can talk cosmos.
Let's talk cosmos.
How is this not in the spreadsheet?
This is a giant thing you guys are ignoring.
Just say it.
Fuck it.
Give me a massive drama.
Like, this is just more of the same shit.
I literally deleted Twitter.
I know this weekend, this last weekend.
Yeah, I don't see anything like this before.
So no, I'll let you talk through the situation.
But the best thing about it, I want to say this upfront because the most important thing
about the drama is that we were all right, right?
Because the who's we like this?
The show that remember when there was that open source, that open source debate way back
when and we were like, you need the flexibility to decide what parts of your stack and your
value add are closed source other than the contracts contracts group should be open source
for the rest of it.
The business decision, right?
And somebody else would just agree code.
Yeah, was basically what we came down on.
Well, that was because that was on the basis of Don did a thing to say like, nothing should
be fine unless it's open source.
And we said that's bullshit.
Or I said that was bullshit because you're buying you're buying results.
You're not buying code, right?
You're buying input.
Imagine my surprise that the chickens have come home to roof.
Why would happen?
I don't know.
So I mean, I sum it up.
Come on.
Yeah, I just thought it was too dark for me for this play.
Yeah, it was like, it was a couple of different things.
Wasn't it?
Frey and but I think one of them was the wind contracts.
So wind.
What didn't we like do some funding for them or something in a invested way?
And then now that they've been funded, Jacob pointed back to that prop 64.
I'm going to say, I think it was the open sourcing prop and he's like, the contracts
should be open sourced, but they are open sourced.
And then there was like some talk about whether or not they were copied from another project,
which is clearly stated in the fucking GitHub repo that they are and always have been based
on like the Astro port contracts, etc, etc.
And then it was just fucking on and on and on with bullshit.
Like two days.
So what's the issue so far?
So what's the issue?
And then again, then it was built over to Dowdow as well.
Oh yeah.
Is it, is it that they weren't open sourced or they were open sourced?
No, no, they were saying that they should be open sourced when they are.
But then it was like down to the front end, I think they were talking about for a little while.
Oh, so everything should be open sourced.
Like no matter what, anything that touches blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
And then there's just fucking drivel for like two days.
Fuck man, you should have just go back like I don't know.
I don't want to.
That's the reason I'm on this show.
The public Juno chat, the fucking bile that was being spilled into that for fucking two days.
It was on discord.
Yeah, on on on on telegram, the telegram.
Oh, I ignore the shit of that thing.
Jesus Christ.
I actually sat there and read it for three hours to just like I read 700 messages.
Just how many arguments did you pick?
None.
I didn't type a thing.
I was just like the fly on the wall, rating the shit.
I was like, this is hilarious.
But the the Twitter pod, I just couldn't handle that shit anymore.
So did Jacob start all this?
Like was it was that where it started?
Or why did it even come up?
Like why did the eye of sorrow and focus on this?
Like what changed where it became a issue?
Look, I have a theory as to why it'll begin.
But you know, sometimes Jacob just picks the things and starts whacking on it.
Yeah, but usually something has to.
You can't say that.
Something never.
Something has to something has to tip, right?
There has to be an event.
Well, I do believe there was a catalyst, but that's pure speculation on my part.
Is it spicy?
Your theory?
I mean, it's publicly verifiable.
If you do, I mean, it was mentioned on the podcast a few weeks ago.
Oh, what?
One hour 25.
Wow.
All right.
We're not going to say.
Well, so the there's the whole thing of like way back when Cor 1 had those two big spend
props for.
Oh, they paid the first three months.
The denial.
They halted them.
Right.
Yes.
They were unilaterally halted and there wasn't actually a prop on Cor 1.
They just stopped paying.
And then so.
That actually wasn't communicated essentially until after me and Max joined Cor 1 and we're
like, this still hasn't actually like this is everybody knows this has stopped, right?
Because it stopped.
Nobody's getting paid.
Like and at that point, I think no contributor is not even the doubt our guys were getting
paid.
Like literally nobody was getting paid.
Everything was halted.
And so it's like, well, everybody knows it's halted.
Everybody knows you're not going to pay another $900,000 to these two companies.
So yeah.
So why has this not been addressed essentially?
So they took the they took the Bob's approach from office space.
They treat like Milton.
They fixed they fixed the glitch.
It worked itself out.
We fixed the glitch.
Maybe it would have done.
So you told no should only you're going to pay it.
We fixed the glitch.
Yeah.
I mean, for sure that that's subject to come up quite a few times in the 4,000 messages.
I mean, and the thing is, I'm sure you're dead on the money because as as, okay, this
might be a spoiler, but okay, I won't say what happened.
But you know, at the end of office space, Milton does find out and there are consequences
for the there are.
That's right.
This is this is a little bit.
There are consequences for that.
It's great.
So we're going to I think we're going to burn Jino down.
Is that what's going to happen here?
That's what happened this weekend.
I had a jelly good crack at it anyway.
Yeah.
There was a lot of time.
So there's a lot of tagging.
I know I had been tagged in a lot of stuff to burn out.
It's tough to burn down a building that's already on fire.
I mean, I mean, yeah, I think this points this morning.
That was too close.
Yeah.
I don't know.
It's one of those where I just didn't engage with it, but there is a whole.
Too funny.
Yeah.
I didn't engage with it, but I certainly fucking read all of it.
I didn't even realize I was tagged and the couple of things I was tagged in.
I can't remember what it was, but I feel like the answer was just like, yes.
Because it was like something like it's something like a Utah, you know, something, something,
something.
The fray thinks this work is basically worthless.
And that's what he said privately.
And it was just like, well, yeah, basically.
I can say that publicly, but I just don't really feel like arguing with a bad faith
arguer in a public forum.
It's not going to be a.
Well, there's no basis of fact, right?
It's all just.
Yeah, it's not going to spark joy.
It's not going to increase my store of happiness.
If there was an immutable blockchain that this could all be on so we could see exactly what
happened.
Yeah, I was just like, you know what?
What I could do.
I could go to the garden and I can crack open the deck chair and get a beer and I can just
ignore this shit.
So that's what I did.
And it was fantastic.
Let me tell you about my son sat on the porch looking at houseboats for money.
2020.
I got to say that you're on the houseboat.
That's all I'm saying.
I want, I want to go on the houseboat.
If the houseboat isn't like super fucking gangster, though, then I will.
How about it?
Oh, you mean like, like a P Diddy houseboat?
Just telling that you, you couldn't find anything and he'll be like, okay, well, we got, we
got a couch for you and he'll be great.
After three people there.
Yeah, we'll make it work.
The master.
Exactly.
Just on that other thing we were talking about briefly for a second there.
So the.
Yeah.
So Max.
Dougie's heels in man and he fucking staunchly defended his position.
It was actually quite like nice to read.
It was like the oldest shit was getting said and Max just sat there and fucking fended
off argument after argument elegantly for like how was it was good.
I saw that when I scrolled and I was like fucking hell.
Max's once again, like the hardest working most reasonable person in the cosmos and what
the fuck.
Do you know what amazed me is just like his ability to just pull references from fucking
all over the place and be right every time and like not just say shit, but actually like
have.
Oh, like this thing happened at this date at this time and this is what you said or that
type of thing.
Yeah, be like, you know, someone would say something and then Max would go, well, no,
that's not true or accurate at all.
And here's a link to, you know, the actual facts.
Nice.
Where other people just sit there and go, because the whole thing started off like a fucking
someone else made a tweet that made an allegation that seemingly no one checked and then went
on a fucking rampage about.
Oh, yeah.
The most cause was stick.
The tweet that made an allegation that nobody checked.
Yeah, like, like I'm not an expert on the thing and I don't really want to bash any of the
participants in it, but that is seemingly what happened is that someone made a tweet about
something about wind and then someone else picked it up and read it and then maybe or
may or may not have done any research on the on the subject.
You know, I remember learning about this, the telephone game back in like second grade
in preschool.
Am I the only person that took anything away from this?
Like what happened here?
Telephone game.
What's this?
Sorry, Chinese whispers.
You know her to the telephone game?
Okay.
So it's like, we're like, we're the Australian races version of this.
We call it the bad thing here as well.
Oh, I guess the enlightened children now don't, but that's what it's called.
The bad thing.
What the bad Chinese was the bad was called in Australia and UK.
It's got something to do with gold rushes or some shit.
I don't know.
It's probably are we talking about the same thing?
I think so.
Yeah.
Telephone is Chinese whispers here.
You know, I had, I had a fucking Mexican stuff pepper for dinner last night and I was
going to talk about it today.
And I was like, can I say Mexican stuffed pepper is that racist?
It's not.
That's the national stuff like stuffed with Mexicans.
What do you mean?
No, it's just like a hot fucking mince in pepper is like, is this?
Oh, okay.
Like a, okay.
Like a Mexican style preparation of a dish.
Is that what you're saying?
Yeah.
Okay.
It's not like weird.
That's just, I felt like it might have been stereotyping.
Like, I wasn't sure if I was going to get into trouble.
I mean, if you Google for whether that is a real thing, then, you know,
I mean, you can Google Chinese whispers.
It doesn't make it sound any less racist.
It's very racist.
Everything is racist from our childhood.
I mean, seriously, I mean, I'm actually going to go Google it now.
There's a time.
I no doubt it has some horrible connotation.
Let me just mute while I go and we have a ton of shit.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So the funky one says, who was the guest?
Do we want to divulge who this potential guest is?
Well, maybe next week, right?
Until we get ranked again.
Yeah.
The phrase says no.
And then he talks to the guy.
I come for this because I really was excited for this guest.
And because I probably can't make next week, there is, I would say a 99%
certainty that it will happen next week.
And then I'll listen back to the podcast and it will be really interesting.
I wish I could have disrupted the flow of that conversation.
Well, if you can't be here next week, we should definitely delay it then
because he can only be here for 45 minutes.
So it'd be better if we could figure out a time for all of us to be there for it.
Two weeks time.
Okay.
I'll message him and see if we can reschedule.
I'll do it right now.
45 minutes.
There may or may not be a silent letter in the name.
45 minutes.
We ignore them for 45 minutes.
How is that going to work?
I had the same concern, but then I was like, you know what, we'll make it work.
It's a classic.
I'm phrasing it wrong.
What the fuck and what?
Oh, man.
No.
We've talked about that one before.
The fun thing is that J has repeatedly asked to be on the show.
I think he's the only proactive person that has wanted to be on the podcast for some reason.
Apparently, Chinese whispers is technically also called a transmission chain experiment.
Yeah.
Telephone game.
Yeah.
It sounds an awful lot like a circle steak though.
Players form a line or a circle and, you know, that was the beginning.
The funny thing is that everyone purposely fucked it up.
Right.
You add a little bit in there.
Which is pretty much like Twitter, right?
Yeah.
And then it instantly becomes like Terry fucked Barry behind the fucking, you know, Mitre 10.
Terry and Barry can't leave him alone.
Yeah.
Does anyone watch that fucking Barry show?
I love that show.
I love where it is, man.
It's getting dark too.
Actually, I haven't started watching this last season just because I usually wait until
the end because I like to binge that show.
So I've been waiting until a couple of apps, but then decided to wait as well because it
is best binged, I feel.
It is.
It is like, it's one of my favorites too.
Which shows that?
Barry.
And the hubbo.
I don't know it.
But so on the, is Chinese whispers racist or not?
The answer is unclear.
So apparently the reason it's called Chinese whispers is in relation to a potentially
apocryphal story about how messages were carried from one observation tower to the
next along the Great Wall of China.
And supposedly the message was distorted as it was carried along the wall.
That was obviously, well, I don't know.
Actually, I'm not expert in the defensive strategy of the Great Wall of China, although
I have been there.
It's very cool.
You should go.
Read a book.
Well, it was never used wasn't it?
That's the famous thing about the Great Wall of China.
It was built, but it was never actually functionally used because they just went around it.
Yeah.
It's like walls.
Like you can, they have like weak spots somewhere, you know, like crypto.
I think it's on the side because there's on the, on the side that's closest to the coast,
it obviously has to end somewhere.
And I think there's a couple of spots, which are just essentially, if there's no standing
army there, you can just walk through and there you go.
It was something like that.
But not, not the point.
The point is that I don't think it quite function that way.
However, people have also said that the, the it's racist because at the time it came out,
we are talking just before the opium, you know, the, the poisoning China with lots of
opium from the British Empire kind of period.
And so there's a kind of potentially like, it's kind of like, oh, speaking to the Chinese
is incomprehensible.
And therefore, you know, it's like a racist thing.
But, but nobody's really clear.
It's not really documented anywhere.
It just kind of cropped up in usage.
Can you just like add some more info about that poisoning with opium business?
Wait, what?
You don't know about like the opium wars and stuff?
Yeah, even about the opium wars, man.
I know.
It's, I used to have this game on my fucking like Nintendo or my, my, my, my Windows 95
PC called fucking drug wars.
Opium wars related to Nintendo 64.
You didn't play that?
Frey, I think you need to get this since it's kind of up your alley.
Well, I mean, I'm, I guess I'm kind of, I'm kind of, so well, yeah.
So like the, the opium wars made a lot of opium in, in, you know, in India, Afghanistan,
Afghanistan, the four fathers, the British, who were obviously also, you know, pillaging
that country.
Getting a whole lot of opium.
Happy days.
I'm oversimplifying, but it's okay because, you know, they occupied a country for 200
years.
So fuck it.
Anyway, yeah, lots of opium.
Happy days need a big market to sell this to.
Hey, China's big market.
Lots of people live there.
Take it there.
The, let me get this right.
It would be the tail end of the Qing dynasty.
Qing dynasty?
I think that's correct.
Yeah.
We're not super jazzed about the introduction of shit loads of opium.
Not a fan.
Not, not a fan.
Not a big fan.
We're sort of like, hey, we're going to have to strongly object to your massive importation
of highly addictive opiates.
So the British, again, with TRDR, they sort of, they had a little disagreement whereby
they sailed a ironclad warship into the middle of the Chinese blue water navy and the sun
kit.
So amongst other atrocities.
So you know, there was a little bit of that.
So this is what's called gumboat diplomacy was where somebody disagrees with you and
you say, well, I'm massively militarily superior to you.
So I'm going to ignore all of your internal policy problems that are caused by my selfishness
and I'm going to instead shoot all of your people and continue selling them opium until
I get more rich.
In fact, there is no end state because I actually just want to keep getting richer.
So I'm just going to keep doing that until I no longer can.
So that's my potter summary of that period of history.
And at the end, of course, the British go, let's have Hong Kong as well.
Why not 100 year lease for a quid?
Though they didn't think that they typically didn't think that through either because eventually
when they had to give it back, they were giving it back to a newly resurgent nationalist,
well, communist, but communist nationalist in the sense of they have a strong national
identity and a nationalist fervour, although being a communist state, China.
But obviously by that point, Hong Kong culturally had diverged very, very heavily from mainland
China in addition to the fact that it's largely Cantonese speaking as opposed to Mandarin
speaking.
And so basically the British just left Hong Kong in a situation where a lot of people
from Hong Kong want to be independent.
And I feel like if I don't put a pin in it, this is going to continue indefinitely.
It's just like a list of your fucker.
It's actually a pretty good explanation, though.
And there's a lot of really cool side effects of it.
Like because Hong Kong.
Running onto other subjects now.
Well, it's interesting history.
It's really interesting history.
Yeah.
I mean, I've got a question about these 100 year leases.
Like that's not a lot of forethought.
Why not a thousand years or 10,000 years?
Well, so part of it was like, Hong Kong at the time was something like 70% of China's
entire GDP.
And so there was a little bit of negotiation there of like, well, 100 years is like reasonable,
but like further than that, then there's more pushback.
So yeah.
Why would you sell something that was 70% of your GDP for like a handbag of fucking,
you know, I think that was one of the like one of the things end of the war, right?
Like it was part of the like,
I think it was, it wasn't, it wasn't at the point where the, because there's the whole
thing.
It's like an end to see.
It's like an end to a spoil of war type thing.
Yeah.
And then there's like this whole sport of war thing.
And then that undermines the final authority of the end of that dynasty.
And then because then that's shortly after, so this is bear in mind.
I studied this over 14 years ago.
So it's a bit rusty.
But then I think that's the point at which it's the succession of sorry, the loss of
Hong Kong that I think leads in the first instance, the beginning of the awakening of
actual Chinese nationalism outside of the framework of a imperial dynasty.
Because I think that's like, I think Sun Yat-sen is literally like a handful of years, like
maybe less than 10 years after the taking of the lease of Hong Kong or whatever.
I think it's like 1905 when Sun Yat-sen published his first stuff, right?
Something, it's something like that from my memory.
I think 1905 is too early.
I think he's going to chat, he's read more recently or more thoroughly on this and can
correct the numbers, you know, whatever.
So apologies to any scholars of Chinese history or Chinese people listening to the podcast
if I've got some of those facts wrong.
It's been a little while.
They stopped listening after Chinese whispers.
Yeah, that was.
They're not here anymore.
Yeah.
Sorry about that as well.
Sorry about that.
Oh, here we go.
The opium wars.
Yeah, I mean, there's.
I'm going to go read the abstract of this paper on the opium wars and talk to us if
I'm in authority on it now.
I'll be back in 20 minutes.
Yeah, I mean, like the abstract is pretty short.
It's like three lines and it ends in British forces shut down Chinese ports in Hong Kong
and was handed over to them.
Yeah, the Japanese saw then we're like, yeah, we don't want any of that.
And so then they had basically shut off policies for a long time, except I think to the Dutch.
They think it was the Dutch.
They were like, yeah, the Dutch can come in, but everyone else now you can shut off.
Yeah.
So that was that was another example of gunboat diplomacy because the Dutch were the only
ones who are allowed to trade with mainland Japan and they did it from this tiny little
island like a little concession.
Incidentally, there's a really good, so I did also did this in history because I'm a
massive nerd, but there's also a really good book by David Mitchell who wrote Cloud Atlas,
Number Nine Dream and Black Swan Green, a bunch of really good books.
He wrote a novel about a Dutch trader in this period called The Thousand Automs of Jacob
DeZoet.
And it's really, really good.
It doesn't sound like it should be good.
It is good.
I would that book is like a nine, nine and a half out of 10 as a novel that's very good.
Okay.
What's it called?
Now, nine and a half out of 10 is a pretty strong review.
I mean, maybe nine, maybe nine because there are better David Mitchell books, but it is
very little.
Yeah.
Backpedal.
I'll backpedal it to it to a strong eight to light nine.
What's the name of the?
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
He's backpedaled again.
Shoot me.
It's a little light.
I mean, Thousand Automs of Jacob DeZoet.
Absolutely.
I think in the show notes, Schultz's book.
So what happened was then the Americans wanted access to trade.
And so that happened in the mid, I think it was the mid, mid 19th century with the black
ships, right?
Which was when Commodore Perry sailed a small flotilla of American gunboats to open up Japanese
trade.
And so then America got access to Japanese trade.
And then this was the period of time where then the Iwakara mission went to Europe.
And I think 1871.
So the end of the Tokugawa shogunate, I think which was partly, so that's the reaccession
of the emperor and the ending of the period of shogunate war.
And I think from memory, what happened there was essentially the, I think that the gunboats
might have also been a factor in the end of that period.
Although I think that's the one which ends with the battle of Sekigahara.
But that is way too much detail, that's far too long in the past, I can't fully remember.
But the main detail to take away is that the Iwakara mission goes to Europe about 1871
from memory and goes to industrializing Germany, which obviously we're talking about the period
here where German unification and that kind of thing is starting to happen.
Wars of France is starting to become the industrial center of Europe.
They go to Britain, like industrial Manchester, industrial Glasgow.
There's actually a sign somewhere in town in Greater Manchester.
So not a huge fuck, the nearest city to where I live and obviously where we have offices.
There's a sign saying, this is where Japanese trade delegates were welcomed.
And they basically went around Europe looking at industrialized manufacturing to try and
work out how Japan could industrialize so that it wouldn't be humiliated again.
And then that then culminated in a rapid period of industrialization and planning that ultimately
resulted in when the Russo-Japanese war happened, which I'm going to say 1905 could be wrong,
something like 1903, 1905, the Russians were beaten by the Japanese.
And it was a huge, huge shock for the Western powers because they just hadn't had this,
the idea that all of the racism, all of the kind of chauvinism, all that sort of stuff,
they just hadn't seen that one coming.
And that's really like the kind of, it's the beginning of the shift to power in the Pacific
towards an industrial Japan.
And obviously in that whole period, Japan is taking Taiwan career.
All this was places like it, increasingly expansionist kind of foreign policy as well.
So I mean, there's just, there is so much interesting about that period of history.
From the point of view of Japanese and Chinese history and the nationalist movement in China,
obviously is super interesting.
And all of the crazy shit that happened around the Boxer Rebellion and everything, just, man,
the Western powers were fucking arseholes, really.
That's the conclusion of that one.
That's why I also know those weird facts about like the Gungho and the First Marine Corps
and stuff, because they were obviously just casually intervening in China in the interwar
period and stuff.
So that's like the, that's why all modern, most Western militaries are organized around
the Chinese guerrilla, as in the Chinese Communist guerrillas, the Maoist guerrillas, three,
three person units.
Sorry.
I'm just going to chuff off and make a coffee, but call out if we get back into like any cosmos
shit.
This is the cosmos.
This is like setting the stage for when computers could be made.
That's right.
Fast forward this whole storyline.
You get the Jacob shitting on Wendau.
So it's like a butterfly and, you know, that whole thing.
You fast forward a hundred years and in Hong Kong, Don Kryptonium has sat in his laptop
and he is typing a tweet.
All these things are all, that's right.
It's all converging.
It says all software on Juno must be open source to get funded, send tweet.
And then he posted on chain and that's prop whatever it was, 59.
Was it 59?
If it's prop 59, then my memory is fucking ace because better than I can remember.
That's sad if it is.
That will be, I will verify.
That would be very deeply sad.
Would that if I could, you want it to be 59?
I'll tell you if it is or not.
I don't know if you really want it to be 59.
Right now.
A good idea.
Not sure.
Holy shit.
It's 59.
Yeah.
Find the open source number 59.
You called it.
Fucking live.
Don't know.
Those brain cells should be re diverted to something more valuable than that piece of
information that you're holding on to.
But the main thing to take away from this is that indirectly the opium wars created a
discourse of strife, of hostility, of negativity and of course imperialist overarching violence
that ultimately would result in prop 59.
I'm going to make that a sound clip.
The ebb and flow of history, baby.
That's how it works.
It's cause and effect.
That's all we did.
It's cause and effect.
We just flappered the breeze to the tune of these great forces beyond our understanding,
you see.
But that's how it works.
All butterfly wings, man.
It's just a butterfly.
It is.
I do think about the butterfly flapping its wings for the last two years and going.
Uh-huh.
That's exactly what it is.
Next thing you know, prop 59 and here we are.
Yeah.
I was reading some stuff about systemic stability the other day and I was like, no such thing,
baby.
So, incidentally, that was the abstract to the paper as well.
I said, no such thing, baby.
And then it had, you know, 65 pages justifying that with maths, which I didn't understand
because I don't understand maths.
What we should do is we should cover all the Cosmos stuff all knows me in a coffee, then
come back and talk about something else.
What other Cosmos stuff was that?
I think local berry.
Yeah.
We can talk about that now, right?
Or Huckleberry.
Yeah.
We accidentally disclosed that the other week on the podcast.
I don't know what the hell it was, so it turned out to be, is it more of an art piece?
It was a more of a real-ear thing or maybe you can break it down?
Uh, Shulsi, do you want to?
No, you go ahead.
I know the basics of it, but I'm sure you are in deeper conversations about what it
actually pertains to and what it affects.
I know of it change intentionally.
Yeah.
It's about figure on the account, isn't it?
So the reason that nobody was freaking out is because it doesn't really affect many accounts
because almost nobody's using figure on to the moment.
For people who don't know, can you explain what a figure on it is?
Shulsi.
Yeah.
So a figure on it is like, so for relaying, I relay, oh, you know, I'll look that up right
now.
I think we just requested for relays.
Very relevant for relays.
So I think like lavender.
So we are decisively number one in terms of relay count.
We have relayed 350,000 transactions this month and the next is 270,000 transactions.
So almost 100,000 more transactions per month than average person.
Imagine funding that every single transaction manually for those wallets.
We're burning through probably more than a thousand Osmo month.
If with a fee grant, you can just say, Hey, I've got this one core wallet, feed everything
and it'll just pay it all for you.
That way you don't need to feed individual wallets to actually feed things.
It pays transactions for you.
So it's basically allowing you to associate fees to a transaction to like maybe a community
fund or something else that's coming out of a central pool.
So you're not doing transactions and dealing with delegations and all that shit.
Yeah, exactly.
So are you back?
Oh, welcome.
Exactly right.
So like if you have off Z, if you have relaying, if you have like you want to claim your delegations,
you can have all these different wallets that do different things, but you can have
them all.
All those fees can come from one central wallets so that only it has to be worried about for
whether you actually to fill anything up or not.
So yeah, the only person that I'm are the only validator team that I'm aware of that
actually uses it like wildly extensively is Crow's Nest.
They use it for everything and it's really impressive to see what they do.
But yeah, that's a fee grant.
Does that mean they set up their own central wallet and then everything fee grants off
that wallet or is it still back to the individual teams?
They have their own singular wallet that feeds everything.
So they have a fee wallet and then they just fund that basically.
Correct.
Which the implication there is that they have all sorts of like built in scripts and stuff
to do things for them.
Really cool stuff.
Yeah.
Okay.
So this and this happened with the secret hole.
Why was secret involved?
It just happened to be found during secret.
Yeah.
So the shade protocol, they were building a fee grant because I talked with the team quite
a bit about like relaying it with the difficulties of it, like doing costs.
And so they started doing a fee grant module like middleware, I believe.
I'm not quite sure the exact story.
But they are they're an entrance relaying because secret succeeds through relaying or
well, the cosmos does really.
And they found a bug and they fixed the bug and then a soft submitted a PR to the cosmos
hub with with the fix, the security fix.
But it's like it's considered a fairly major for fee grant.
I think that something like $50,000 or $100,000 USD was siphoned from a team through the bug
once it was found and the PR submitted for it.
But the interesting thing is like, are you saying that the siphoning was resultant from
the submission of the PR, like before they could patch it?
Because yeah.
So the problem was there was no.
It's disclosed in private.
Yes, it should have been disclosed in private.
Another win for open source.
Yeah.
So it should have been in private.
It's actually more secure.
So.
Thank you.
Shout out to the shade team though.
I look at their product the other day.
It's pretty polished.
I like it.
Yeah.
The shade team absolutely kills it.
They do really good stuff and they really care about their product and their users and
they're one of the stronger teams in the cosmos.
I'm willing to go on, I don't know, contracts saying that, whatever.
You are.
That's an official YOP.
That's what that is.
That's an official statement.
It's a fucking YOP right there.
You're going to get a $20 contract?
Sorry.
I couldn't think of the word.
On record?
Thank you.
Record.
That's the one.
I'm spacing.
Listen.
On YOP.
Yeah.
I think they put that in or a soft credit that, and somebody actually siphoned some funds
while they were watching those types of disclosures.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
So somebody had a $100,000 and a fee contract?
Is that what it was?
Or maybe it was pointed towards a community fund or something?
How would that happen?
Yeah.
I don't know how it happened.
I don't know who to pretend to.
It also could just be hearsay.
I heard that that's true from someone, but I don't actually know.
Now, the interesting thing about it is that it was very specific.
Community validators could execute it or could actually take advantage of it.
And they had to be a relayer.
And there was something specific.
You had to have failed a transaction acknowledgement and then sent a type of return acknowledgement
that was custom modified.
So you had to say you still want to actually pay it with the fee grant, even though it
didn't come through.
It was very specific to actually achieve it.
That's why a lot of chains were like, do I need to fix that instead of them?
Right.
So, but all the chains did push updates, but that was really, but you said it was really,
was that a chain chain?
It was obviously for the chain, but it was, I assume like the relay and the relay software
was also modified as well.
Correct.
Yeah.
Hermes and relay were both also fixed for it.
So in theory, with those two being fixed, it shouldn't really be an issue anymore,
but it's better to just fix it.
But I guess you could run old versions of those software, but you would have to be a
relayer to do that, right?
So that seems like it's kind of kind of intuitive to that.
Right.
That's why it's such a specific thing.
And not all chains have updated.
We have quite a few in our list that just didn't because they don't use fee grant.
So why be concerned about it for right now until, and if you have an upgrade scheduled
anyway, just roll it in with that.
So Ben asked, could a fee grant be implemented for normal users, and let me know if they
need for native tokens on every chain?
Yes, absolutely.
In fact, I have implemented that on secret.
When I, one of the first things I did in the cosmos was implement a fee grant bot, so to
speak for whenever people needed to do a swap on like secret swap, secret swap, they
need a little bit of dust, right?
To do that.
Fucking hassle.
It was.
Yeah.
And then you could just use that and it would do it for you.
But that no longer exists.
I mean, another way of using, you've not owned your different token, every chain would be
to just use USDC.
That's what Ellis is doing.
They are a swap that's going to be completely paired with USDC and everything's going to
USDC.
I feel like that would 100% though kill the tokenomics of every chain.
Well, because they might have a natural token that actually has value.
They can't manipulate like, you know, not that it's a security or anything, not that
something's open for manipulation.
So in other cosmos news, so Injective is doing a upgrade tonight, I think, or like in about
12 hours.
I don't know that for me, eight o'clock, but I've noticed that there are quite a few validators
with like the low, low commission on there, like 0%, etc.
2%.
And I think that this upgrade might be like forcing everyone up to 5%, which might be interesting.
Well, so here's the funny thing about that.
The reason why they're having to do that is because Injective has a like a custom module
where you can only increase your commission by increments of 2%, I want to say.
And most people will say 1%.
So if you can't upgrade by more than 1%, then you're just not gonna.
So like, Block you.
Yeah, so you're like literally can't get there because it's like, you can't go like the end
block or we'll say, fuck you, it's not 5%, you can't change it.
Exactly right.
So Block, Block, Block, engine or stakes, auto-stake, they're at 0% at the top and they can't get
any commission because they only have 1% increments.
They're just like, well, I guess I'm fine.
I thought that happened a different chain too.
It wasn't Juno, but I thought somebody else where they made that change, they ended up
writing a conversion that automatically moved those validators to five or something like
that.
Do you guys remember that?
Yeah, it's an extra wallet.
You can do it in an upgrade handler.
They move everyone up.
So why wouldn't Injective do that where they forced everybody up and like just bypass that?
That's what they're doing this time.
I guess it was just an oversight previously.
Oh, okay.
All right.
So basically, so right now they're stuck.
They're at 0% and they can't change it.
Yeah.
So to clarify, it wasn't a minimum 2%.
It was that the move max was 2%.
And they can, yeah, okay.
But the move was still under the minimum, so therefore they couldn't move, right?
I think that was the same thing.
Yeah, I think that was true.
I think that's right.
I remember that that was like early on that they made that change and they had to write
an upgrade handler to force everybody to five basically is what happened.
Yeah, like stuck on zero.
But I mean, it's kind of comeuppance in it's like, well, you're like, you're, you're
you're getting all these extra delegations, but you can't monetize it.
So fuck you.
Yeah.
Well, I think we just had another, another thing came up this week with, with the 0%.
There was another chain that's getting ready to launch here with the say that sort of sort
of involved in that also out of nowhere had a proposal to be able to be able to allow
0% or to change the minimum from 5% to 0%.
And that was, they heard a kind of an earful from a bunch of validators on that.
I definitely threw down for that.
I'll throw it down for that.
That's the topic.
I'll throw it down for any day of the week.
Yeah.
I think some teams just don't understand that.
Like, it was a community pro.
What was it like a prop from Validate?
It's been like, why can't we go zero and ride that rocket all the way?
Well, I think like, who proposed it?
Was it was that someone might have like suggested it from the, from one of the teams?
Yeah.
So I think it's a validator suggested to the say team and the say team put it forward.
Right.
I don't think so.
I think it was the community that put it forward and then the say team actually put
it forward.
Yeah.
So, so I think it was during a community call, someone in the community was like, Hey,
what can't we have zero?
Why aren't there any zero percent validators?
Like for testnet, they should be different from mainnet.
Right.
And so the say team was like, okay, well, yeah, that makes sense.
And then, and then a couple of us got angry.
Let's table that.
Let's put that on the side there.
I mean, yeah, testnet they say.
No, no, no, no, no, no, this is four.
But it doesn't make sense to have like zero percent validators.
It's just like, just to fuck it.
Why make people work for free?
Like, it's just, it's a circle in the drain to zero.
Well, especially for say, say it is a really expensive change of road.
To run more so than.
Yeah, probably the most expensive change to run that I'm making about it.
In the cosmos.
I would think so.
I think maybe aside from a Solana, I think other than Solana, it's the most expensive
nonproof of work chain to run that I've seen.
So like if people are running zero percent, then it's just like they're cutting corners.
They're not, they're not.
No.
Yeah.
I mean, really.
It's interesting though that for the foundation, they, they moved the benchmark for signing
down to 65.
Was it 60 or 65 percent?
66, I think.
66 percent.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
Anything below that, then it's like it's the box not getting assigned.
Yeah.
So they're not pushing like a hundred, you know, like 90, not a percent though.
Like they're saying, yeah, we know that it's like difficult on hardware to, to validate
and.
But that just means there are going to be a bunch of validates.
Is it never signed, right?
No, I think there's no, there's a sign.
Just the miss is pretty high just because especially it moves so quick.
And I think tendermint really even that team has done a pretty amazing job with just the
core underlying protocol here because this protocol is never built for 300 millisecond,
400 millisecond block times.
And there's a shitload that they've done to be able to engineer through this problem.
But even with that, my fucking iterations like trying to, trying to get it right.
Yeah.
And like, and they've solved problem after problem, right?
And I think they've done a pretty excellent job of, of kind of approaching problem after
problem.
And anyway, but even with that, even there's, there's also just kind of the, the size of
the earth issue and the size of the earth issue is that in this protocol, at least when
you don't have overlapping blocks or something like you have with, with Aptos and other types
of things where you have some sort of sharding of signatures and those types of things.
But when you don't have that, I think it's really difficult to be able to have a very
distributed set of validators in the structure.
And you really couldn't have, I don't think you could have 100 validators on sale.
Like I think, I think you're launching with 35 or something and that might be it.
That might be it for, for good because, and even they're trying to just kind of do some
global distribution because right now everything's pretty much in Western Europe.
And if you're in Asia or in your, or in the US or something, I think you're kind of screwed.
Like you just can't sign for that stuff.
That was because of the way, because of the way tendermint works versus the way that
hot stuff.
Yeah.
Hot stuff works.
Like my, because, because you have the leader election, like I said, my naive understanding
is because you have the leader elections, you always have the possibility that you're
a jet, essentially like the leader will be adjacent to you geographically.
Yes.
And I think this is why the Aptos team was so keen to have at least a reasonable spread
of geographical nodes because you want, if you have any of them distributed, you need
to have a significant enough percentage of them so that if the leader lands in an area
where, where it's, you know, way out of say Western Europe or US East One, like which
are the two hotspots for nodes, that there will be peers nearby geographically because
of the, you know, the ping rates and timeouts and all that stuff.
And it's like even more important for tendermint where the, the P2P, like the polka and everything
has to happen in a really specific way.
But like it sounds like they've got around that by just reducing threshold way down.
Yeah.
Like I agree.
Like it.
But I guess the, we'll kind of see how that, but to the point is like, like it's incredibly
expensive to run that because even though in there, they're pushing a decent amount of
transactions per block, I think, I think they've been averaging 20 or 30 or 50 or something
like that, right?
Like transactions a block, like during testnet, we've been kind of pushing that or more like
consistently and wherever that's coming from.
And then just the hardware to require to do that is pretty significant.
Like like Schultz said, like out of a salata like, but there's a lot of waste, I think
that's going along with that, even as much of the work as a team is done within that.
So how, how many validators is say launching with?
35, I think.
I think that's right.
Yeah.
35.
And there are, I mean, that, that would be an unpopular position to put yourself in if
there's any 35 validators.
You're the 80 zero commission and you got like up the chart.
Yeah.
But I think if I remember, it's not a, I don't even know if how inflation works within
say, or if it's going to be more of more fee based type structures, right?
I think kind of following along with the Kajira type of idea where since it, since it's, there's
a significant amount of transactions expected, it might be more from a transaction perspective.
So from a, I do believe that the inflation is going to be quite low.
That's not a pump and a McChain by any means.
Yeah.
But they did like a, and I think it is going to be like pretty fee based because they were
doing throughput tests like in the early days of the Atlantic to the Atlantic to test
net, which resulted in a lot of fee commission.
I'm going to say.
So I'm pretty sure then that that is like part of the model to, to have rewards through
fees and throughput.
And I think today they just, they just up the gas by like 350 times, right?
Something like that.
It's way higher.
Yeah.
It was like 400x on the gas.
So I appreciate that they're, sorry, go ahead.
No, I think, I think we're going to say the same thing.
It was like a 400x jump in the gas.
So I think I heard there was a comment like expectations that it should cost a few cents
to run a transaction.
Like it should not be free.
Like it should be some portion of a dollar that actually comes into a transaction.
So as transactions build, there's actually a repeating type of structure here.
And I think I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of benefits around this idea of like
a zero cost gas structure within the cosmos.
There's also, there's a big, there's a gradient between it being nothing and also $7 per transaction
like in, you know, in Ethereum.
And zero is not great.
Like there's some benefit of having 10 cents towards a transaction.
Well, the core belief for all these chains is that you bootstrap them with inflation
and then fucking graduate to like feed.
Sure.
But like at the same time, a lot of them are like, well, let's fucking have no fees.
Well, they're making sense.
You want to get people used to fees.
But you know, like, I totally agree.
Like a few cents, a transaction is perfectly fucking reasonable.
There's no reason, no reason it has to be zero.
And if we're not like making money from the fees, then why the fuck are we all here?
Like, you know, you have to pay for the pay for service.
Like it's not, it's not much.
Yeah, inflation is not the way to do it.
It just fucking robs people.
I really appreciate that they're willing to do it chain-wide.
That's not really adopted too much right now.
I think it's only Osmosis, maybe Evmos, Juno, and I think SAE is doing it now.
I think that's it for a minimum commission or mission and gas across chain.
And that's a really, that's a really cool thing.
So an Osmosis early on, there was like a handshake minimum for validators, but a lot didn't.
And what that led to was there was a lot of MEV being done where because there was zero
fees for everyone, they would just absolutely hammer all of the nodes with transactions
to try to like be the person that was there first.
And so that led to a lot of like blocks filling up and state expansion.
And it just from a validator and like a node maintainer perspective, it sucked.
That's why epochs took so long because there is, you know, let's say five people spanning
a thousand transactions for a single block because they wanted to get the arbitrage
back from a chain.
If they had to pay a little bit of fees for that, then they wouldn't have just spammed
a chain and made it difficult for everyone else to use.
It's really cool to say is doing that and I applaud them for it.
So what you're saying there, just so some clarity, you're saying that there is a chain
minimum gas, not a validator agreement of minimum gas.
So regardless, even if a validator sets it at zero percent or at zero, whatever token
that the chain that it still is a rejected transaction because it didn't meet the minimum.
Correct.
Yeah.
So like the process is like, it'll look at the node that you're actually seeing a transaction
to if the node transaction says zero, then the transaction will go like one step further.
And then the chain will look at it and be like, okay, well, it's enough fees sent back
and the chain will be like, well, there's not.
And so then it'll kind of like roll back an error out.
So right.
Yeah.
So I would say it's probably important to have that given that the DEX module to stop
like DEX modules spam, which like given that in the test that it's free to run because
it's not your own money and there is just tons of fucking spam.
So yeah, when it's real money in the mainnet, I guess a lot of that will get alleviated.
And yeah, I mean, it's been like, I'm looking to say it's like being ultra detrimental to
the testnet, but it's added a lot of challenges along the way to the testnet in like state
bloat and you know, just like hammering it for PCs and stuff like that.
Yeah.
Wow.
Fuck was that?
There was a meme shoved in there somewhere.
Frey just unmute shoving memes in this conversation.
Well, I'm dealing with us right now.
I've been completely spammed right now and it's so much so that you can't state sync
on ethmos anymore.
Stay sync for listeners is like, if you want to start up a new node, you need some way
to get to the current block without sinking from the beginning.
State sync will say, okay, well, I'm going to look at all the other nodes and see what
they say for block one and just verify that it's correct and then move on from there.
Ethmos has such a diluted and messed up state.
You can't do that anymore.
So the only way to do it is to download like a 200 gigabyte snapshot and start from there.
Whereas other chains like secret, I think is that like 1.7 gigabytes after you state
sync.
It's just an astronomical difference and it's taxing.
It's brutal.
And that 200 gig I think is after Cozum pruning, right?
That's after pruning.
Yeah.
And that's transaction index is turned off.
That's the absolute minimum you can pull off right now.
So if you look for snapshots, you're going to find some terabyte large snapshots and
those aren't even archives.
Those are just someone has indexing and hasn't like didn't prune it before saving it.
It's absurd.
So I haven't even bothered to try and like state sync a Ethmos node in ages.
So I guess the result of that is over time, like, you know, our sign rate is just decaying
over there.
Yeah.
And that's what the rewards going down like the values are going to lose interest.
Like it has to be an operational component of this as well, which means that I can't
have a two terabyte Ethmos node that's missing 25% of blocks because I can't prune it or
I can't do something to make it more performant.
And if it's, if I'm sitting there just getting beat up on performance, I'm just going to
lose interest, right?
And you're going to end up kind of leaving.
And we're proud about that too.
Because the team, they just made a change.
I think there was a memory issue with state sync, but, but they were really looking at
this before that and somebody brought it up and then they were like, just created a new
version here where I wanted Huckleberry, Huckleberry came out with that supposedly fixed the memory
issue, but I still can't get a snapshot.
I mean, I still can't get a state sync snapshot on that chain.
I just tried a couple of days ago, try to bring it back forward and I tried for 12 hours.
I could knock it.
I couldn't even get a single snapshot to even start, start pulling in components in there.
So it was just, it's just, it's frustrating.
Do you know what's really strange on EvMOS is I have a node that is like super old that
I haven't done anything with.
And the drive thrash is like really significantly less on that node than what it is in newer
nodes that I've brought up.
Yeah.
I don't know why that is.
It's, it's still like at the head.
It's still the performance of that node is actually pretty good too.
And but like the other node in the swarm is like just thrashing the shit out of my drives
and the, like my EvMOS RPC as well is just, I've got it on its, it's like out there on
its own and it is just beating up the driver.
I don't know why it's the newer nodes which are doing it and the older one, I had two
older ones, not, but I deleted one not, not like a week ago, but the two older nodes were
fine on the drive thrashing, but the two newer ones are just fucking it up.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I couldn't even, I couldn't even tell you, maybe it's something with ruining or something
else like that, but I don't know, kind of losing interest in, in like they are exactly
the same settings.
Are they?
Yeah.
But I mean, there's like no, there's no money in, in EvMOS for the validators.
Like it's you validating for free over there.
Like, I don't want to talk on a turn.
I don't know if that team has given up or like just the, like usually have a little bit
more forward communication about problems and solving problems and like upgrades.
And there really hasn't been much, I don't think coming out of the EvMOS team recently.
And I'm not sure if that is just like, would you agree with that?
Like, I don't know if that's, is that pressure or what that is, but like, like, I just don't
see that.
I don't see the hustle, at least on the operation side.
I would push back really hard on that.
Yeah.
I'm still pretty bullish on EvMOS.
I think that they're still a strong team.
It's still, they're doing cool things.
I think that for a very long time, they were over communicative, like to the point where
I had muted the discord for a while and like, I check back every once in a while to see
if things were happening.
And that's it because they just did too much.
And I think that this is an example of them, just the pendulum swinging a bit and then
figuring out where they're at.
They also lost their, their main communication person.
Evmai Chan, Evmos Chan.
Yeah.
So I think that honestly, even with where it's currently at the current, I think Tricky
is the main communication person.
And I think he's doing a great job.
I think that he's communicating a, like they're not being over.
Tricky stepped back.
Yeah.
Who's doing it?
Really?
Who's doing it now?
Don't I?
I was just talking to the community, I was just talking to node ops specifically.
That's all.
Yeah.
I think that, I think that this is just an example of the pendulum swinging the opposite
direction.
And I don't know, I appreciate it.
I appreciate that they're still building.
Like I can check the GitHub and still see that they're doing stuff.
It's just not spamming everything.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I think recently they're like, they've had, you know, a lot of backlash about the founder
that left and is like selling tokens as well.
Yeah.
That doesn't help.
The token price is in the dirt.
So yeah.
I wonder if they're very resolutely in eat each other season at the moment.
So yeah, it's kind of what happens at these points.
And until everybody's finished chowing down.
Yeah.
It's kind of hard to judge sentiment, isn't it?
Except on the hub where the price means everybody is living in a sunlit.
Upland.
Yep.
So Juno had about a 50 million market cap, which is probably where it should have been
in the first place.
Hey, I mean, in hindsight, the blowout, all of your Juno to get into the hub valve set
when the two prices were disjointed in the favor of Juno was the 40 chest move after
all.
So who did that?
Who did that?
None of us.
I could tell you who did not do that.
I could tell you.
Yeah.
As you said, I could tell you which smooth brained business genius did not do that.
It's quite identifying it as a possibility and considering it and then go.
No.
I never really considered joining the hub just because of the whole fucking floors lava
thing.
Yeah, me either.
I didn't want too much.
Who's got two thumbs and bags full of worthless Juno?
This guy.
This guy too.
I hope you've also paid tax on it because that's the other kick in the balls.
I love it.
Yeah.
We as a business have a strong enjoyment of paying tax on now worthless tokens at their
peak value.
That is.
I think you, sir, as a business has not paid tax on it.
Almost guarantee.
Who me as a business?
No.
Yeah.
Cash basis.
Cash basis, baby.
Fuck the government.
If that was an option for us, we would be a lot more chilled out.
That is an option for you, the phrase.
Just you listen to those fucking boffins too much.
You just pull the trigger.
There's alternate option and then you fucking fight them when they come up to you.
There's good.
Again, accounting methods are accounting methods and this this kind of method works.
Okay.
Now you can't switch back and forth and in a in a in a bull market is not good.
Like you want some losses in there.
So it's it's just we picked an option where you pay a fair amount of tax.
It's more we pay more upfront than what you would in like a capital gains type basis of
asset and we just pay on everything that we hold at the current value at the end of
the FY.
But it's just I feel like we're probably paying more more tax than we need to.
But it's like less administration and let like, you know, you save yourself 20 grand
and fucking administration straight away.
I've just looked on gov.uk.
I typed in in the search box cash basis plus company and no results.
The HMRC section has this to say about it.
You can start.
Well, okay.
I'm actually not going to repeat the entire of the cash base.
That would be boring by my standards.
The TLDR is that your revenue has to be below one hundred and fifty thousand pounds in the
year.
If you'd viably say you should be able to use cash basis.
And in this case, in this case, cash basis is probably not really what you said is referring
to because that's cash and accruals.
It kind of is but it kind of like is a little bit different.
It's cash based accounting or cash based accounting and we can in the US you can do cash based
or accrual based taxes as an organization as a business, not as an individual.
Yeah, exactly.
But I feel like in the UK and Australia, like the handling of assets might be different
when you have a cash based accounting is probably not the way that you handle them and would
take some sort of argumenting.
Yeah.
Oh, actually, it's even more specific.
I was looking at the wrong page.
Limited companies and limited liability partnerships cannot use cash basis at any value.
There you go.
You're out.
That's interesting because we certainly can't hear and for a public or a small business
where it's just you as a sole trader, but that's like a different set of accounting
rules here is my understanding.
I'm so happy we got to the tax section of the show.
I'm finally fucking picked up.
It's what's going to happen.
We're dragging along for 80 minutes.
People just wait.
What the fuck is it?
Yeah, holding their shots for fucking like, come on.
I need to get drunk already.
What the fuck, man?
Going back to Edmonds, Ben Davis says, Bear chain going to eat their honey.
Yeah, Bear chain is like the new hot shit in the block, right?
Nobody knows what the fuck it is and bear chain.
Yeah.
Or how to get in there as a validator.
We're just about everybody's working on it.
I'm sure I'm sure Schultz is any is not talking about it, but but yeah, it's not.
It's all hot shit over there.
You can bet your ass.
Perk is there in Perida and fucking Cosmo station.
Yeah, exactly.
I'm sure Sticks eaters in there.
It's all, you know, oh, who's the guru?
He'll be there for sure.
Yeah.
Oh, no, it's guru.
No, it's guru is everywhere.
100% in friends.
Maybe I don't know how but friends.
I think I think they're kind of phone.
I think they've lost interest maybe a little bit, right?
I haven't really seen them in a lot of new chains anymore.
No, it's guru.
It's guru to their point.
I mean, that's a good bet.
They're a good validator.
Like they have their shit together.
They are strong team.
I would definitely stand out.
I mean, what anytime we get involved in other L ones or this and that, like they're in there
and they're not like the last, you know, they're not the last animal at the trough type of
thing, but they they're on top of it, which is really that's refreshing.
Unlike figment.
I wasn't going to say it, but I, you know, I thought it.
There are so many times where like they'll throw in there like, wait, how do you do this
upgrade?
Yeah.
At the main that launch.
Hey, I know we're only six hours away from launch, but yeah.
Where are the docs?
How do I get in Genesis?
Where are the docs?
How do I get in here?
You know, Dora, Dora factories doing that now too.
Just dropping in the last minute.
How I get in this door.
I tried that.
What would you talk about that they showed up and asked about how to be a main net?
Was that I think it was no less.
It was no less.
So they put so no less in the discord.
I guess you said that they asked to be a main net and then they suddenly showed up in the
no less main net channel, right?
Yeah.
And they liked the number two validator.
So I went to the no less discord and I just copied exactly what they wrote and I put it
in myself.
I just said, Hey, I literally, I just copied exactly what their thing was and I put it
in there, but I didn't get invited.
I still, I noticed you got brutally.
Somebody's like, read the docs.
Why weren't you in test that?
I was like, you fuckers.
You know, test us a garbage.
Test us a garbage.
You serve as Billy Big Bulls.
You need to just let him in.
Let me in.
Let him in.
That was like a magic way that you ask.
I thought so.
I thought that that's, that's the move.
That's it.
You showed last minute.
Yeah.
This is the move.
Just say how, how I do this.
And then my balls and I have arrived.
How do I do this?
Exactly.
Where is the GitHub?
Test Nats for the Little Dogs.
Donday Esther, the Entrance.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
It's like, it's like Goodfellas.
Like I come in through the kitchen and shit, right?
Like you got to walk in through.
Oh, fucking.
I know.
I have a, I have a table for you right up in front.
Except if it would be more like the, the kitchen scene in Tenet where he goes into
the kitchen and he realizes they're about to all try and kill him with the knives.
And he goes like, I was just coming back here because I asked for my hot sauce 30
minutes and then they all come at him and he's just like, oh fuck.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's like me trying to get a valse as I somehow end up getting knifed in the
back of a shitty diner.
Oh, uh, min scan 2.0.
Yeah.
What is that in the beta?
No.
What is it?
Two point.
Oh, is it just a newer Explorer?
Yeah.
It's doing a lot.
The next iteration of mint scan.
They're also going to do two point.
Oh, crowd.
They're going to once again get something onto the hub by the longest possible route.
It's just a Trojan horse for some 2.0.
I feel like I can disclose some details.
Are they going after Kepler shit?
Kepler.
No scroll.
It's flashing off of his face as such a funny vibe to it.
There's Kepler 2.0, right?
Well, I mean, like they have the validator Kepler pages.
Obviously, the wallet Kepler pages are getting much more.
Which reminds me in terms of like portfolio and this and that.
And I want to see percentages.
And all of these are as use of drill tweets in the in the validator reasoning.
Okay.
Hang on.
I'm going to strong nine to light 10 out of 10.
Hold on.
Hang on.
I'm going to go to the wilds.
It's 2008.
You know the one.
I would run the shit out of this if we're just a couple of minutes early.
We're in the section deep state.
Not many good wiki leaks lately was hoping Julian would find out which individual or
agency keeps ripping the gutters off my house.
Am I keeping track of this time?
Didn't we delay this section?
I thought we got rid of this section.
I had a moment with that tweet.
It's the section.
A moment.
Accommon scan.
You can't.
So there is a accounts tab where you can get an overview of all of your accounts and
tokens.
Okay.
That's like the wallet or the Kepler wallet page, right?
Yeah.
There's a updated validated tab where it appears that it just gives stats for validators.
There's a proposals tab in depth information about what's going on.
Is that across all chains?
I believe so.
So that's like the validator.
It's like say validate.
My long term opinion was that Kepler was going to build and explore and just integrate all
that stuff because they own the wallet side and they have the wallet page.
I would assume why would you go to Minskamp for anything?
So I think they must be feeling that heat.
If you got pubs new, explore, I think it's really good too.
They did and I see you.
I change it and pick that pub.
Although the wallet integration is really janky.
You got some clunky shit in it.
Yeah.
I don't like that wallet integration.
It's always been clunky to me though.
Yeah.
Oh man, it is better than what it used to be ping.pub.
Like that old way they were doing wallets was a fucking pain in the ass.