You are angry today you know you really are i think we need to send us some kind of anger management on the fucking brand but from you know fucking australian.
Welcome to game of notes weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams.
Welcome to game of notes weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams guaranteed to be the angriest podcast you hit this week or your shit coins back.
So now why are you so angry this week is it because we dragged you out of bed to come back on the podcast.
We want to be a guest this week it looks like you're broadcasting from Noah's closet where are you exactly.
I mean melvin i don't have an office in melbourne some like in the fucking spare room oh my god i think i'm angry because like i'm sitting in a fucking terrible chair for a week.
And you know for the for the foreseeable future i'm gonna be in this shit full fucking chair and you know i'm angry about that as well as like i just woke up to about.
400,000 fucking page of duty notifications that wouldn't shut up all night so.
Could i suggest you just buy a new chair.
That's really those bars are pretty low for you to get angry.
I mean is your old page of duty notifications onto better levels.
Why do i feel very close to putting machines in maintenance mode so i didn't have to listen to the fucking complaining yeah that's eight hour maintenance that's it boom.
It's like a shortcut over here what changes it oh passage eight hour maintenance.
It's out time right just.
Just let it die anyways fucking turn off notifications let it die tender duty i just merged a PR that makes it so severity levels work so you can set all those things that are knowing you to severity low.
And it won't even tell you it'll be like me what did you change so it didn't work before if you set severity levels and tender do you before while they're in the config.
They weren't actually tied to anything it would read it and be like that's nice and dump it out the side i've actually gone through and implemented it in tender duty.
Okay i don't think i was even i was just assigning different and page duty endpoints like you have a default and then i would use like a my default was like hi and then my media ones i would just add to shit you know.
You mean or is there an actual there's actual severity now you can actually say for different types of notifications you can actually set all this is high priority low priority this you can basically completely ignore.
Can you backport the one point oh that i won't do i probably could but i won't.
That i had a similar cell to the two point since i upgraded to v2 i haven't had a single fucking notification from page duty perfect because of performance.
Don't work i don't know why i think we had a problem where i think i did like a temporary pause or something for the day that i was in the hospital where i was just like.
What the like i'm not in a position where i can do anything about this anyway so i got i got some there were people covering anyway so for almost everything i didn't need to be there and so i did what i thought was a temporary pause.
And then i got a week later or something there was something that actually was a lock up on like a test now something where we have notifications and i got a text with.
Which is like i get to we have a dead man switch type thing on some things where after a period of time it just sends me a text and goes hey something looks fucked.
And you might not have had a notification and i got one of those like a few days later and i was like yeah this stuff has just been for the let not the notes but the page duty set up was just.
So fucked and have been done happen like i basically just completely broken it like disabled the whole lot which was dumb but so i'm gonna try to sleep.
Don't do maintenance on your page duty set up while exhausted is the moral of that story have you just moved to a standing desk yeah.
Yeah and like torson fucking cables out of the wall in the process just getting a rough morning just.
The mirror behind you is very exciting for sure i can't stop looking at you behind you because it's just captivating.
It's a good thing is that you got to get back on otherwise it would just be completely disorientating.
Yeah it's you know it's not ideal i was thinking about actually putting like you know some green film on all of the mirrors and then putting in a nice background.
Okay yeah i'm a king or what i call i used to do green screen yeah yeah i used to do when i was on one particular contract where.
The other people had recently good sense of humor i got a a photo where it's a photo from the front of a jet fighter like canopy going backward and then.
Yeah did a similar thing and then always just took my calls dead center so just look like i was in the car like like a very very childish joke but just always dead and just joining every cool from the cockpit of a jet fighter.
What my car so what my car did that previously but with the stars star trek captain seat so he was always in the captain seat can see behind him i was like man that's brilliant i love it.
She even better and now i'm annoyed i didn't think about.
Okay there's a there's a thing on tiktok where oh my god is he dying.
The camera i love it when someone's dying in the camera stops he's like fuck.
What happened to explode fix it.
On the tiktok is that guy that fucking rides around on his on his push black with green screen behind him saying that yes big big tiktok fans.
Huge you should really so i always stay as a website it's.
I'm not leaving out sorry i got distracted i got distracted by jakes doing a twitter space but it's at twenty two hundred utc which is like totally unacceptable i was like.
I was tweeting drama no job you can't do this during g on time fucking bullshit what's going on i think about other.
Come on here exactly i'll be a count up.
This is not cool man i mean i'm not respectable.
You're by far the spiciest and angry as guests we were trash like this like i'm pretty respectable.
I'm sorry.
Yep.
All right this is a i like this no guy we should get more more often so i mean we actually have we actually have some topics for this week but it kind of looks like we've landed on the stargaze spice is number one.
So we what would life be with that little bit of spice hey so spicy though it's pretty good like quality like he's the drama it's not like this role well i guess to me who you are jake probably is not a great time right now i think jake is probably fighting to be this role drama.
I mean but apparently he gets to think it's visual drama all the way to the bank and that's a good place to be i mean i mean six millies fucking not bad i like the way you put it was you fray you know.
Take six million out give thirty six k back that's i think you said that if it was me.
I would probably respond to the twitter hey i would go to a cash point i can do this in america i would take about five thousand dollars in ones i see me still do that maybe cash points to give you ones anymore.
I would go home and speak we're talking about evening showers versus evening bath before the show because we're of course very clean people.
I would put all of those one dollars into my bath i would get into the bath i would then take a picture and i'll post on twitter saying here is what i did with your foundation money and then i would delete twitter.
So how would it be though would like would it be like your legs are up and then you have like some cash right on your junk to protect yourself for safety reasons or like how tasteful would this be.
I don't feel like.
I mean you know exactly swimming in that shit if it's only five k you need like ones of ones now have that's five thousand minutes like a steak like that big right.
What that's like that's like several pounds worth of dollar bills it's gonna be like bath on that big i mean they look bad but it's not that much water in them.
Like is there any any you know is there water in the house to you also there will be how many how many ones you need to fill a bathtub i'll be bright back.
Well but your body volume will also be in it though right so like you guys attract that bit out of it.
Paper's flat like you could stack them and it'd be like you know this big Jesus where we come from i'm skeptical i don't know how any other way to put it i'm just skeptical.
I just say as well as soon as i started typing out how many one dollar bills first hit to fill a bathtub fucking google it's completely like when i know what you fucking want me like we have the same thing everybody's asking which is how many bath how many bath tub.
How much how much dollars dollar.
God i'm tired sorry so what's the fucking answer yeah.
Jesus okay okay there's a range of range of dollars like maybe people don't even know what we're talking about right like i had no idea until i clicked all the links that were posted and went back and did some research so.
Maybe people in the shade on this and i don't even know what's okay so we have a range we've arranged numbers.
Is the range based on how big you as a person hundred gallon is a hundred gallons like that sounds like a fucking huge that's.
American size.
Fucking crazy like no offense but i'm pretty sure the standard bath tub is actually more like it's probably a hundred liars that's.
No twenty five gallons no it's way bigger than that yeah but never think about it like it nearly rocks like is like that big which is about size of the whole my back and most my body and i can't lie flat in a bathtub i have to.
Put my knees up a little bit in a standard you know compact bath tub well what's going to bath we talking about we don't have all those big old warden motherfuckers with like the deep.
Let me know okay maybe one of those might sixty later i'm probably going to bath.
Where you know if you like you're tall like me you know really needs is sticking up is not enough space to lie down that's fucking no way that's more than a hundred liars i thought.
Alright so i'm here and like three hundred liters bath tub three hundred liters okay well this thing in the u.s. is yeah three hundred gallons this three hundred fifty five thousand is the number okay it's just being confirmed three hundred.
Three hundred wait three hundred thirty five thousand usd in dollars fills a hundred gallon bathtub is that what you're saying.
That's that's what the that's what the that's what the consents seems to be somewhere between three hundred and thirty five and five hundred and fifty thousand dollars depending on how big you are.
To displace water and or whether you even get in the bath full stop so the general assumption here seems to be that it's the lower end if you get in the higher end if you're not in the bath.
I don't say that means five thousand one even cover your gentleman's region yes they kind of assuming that you take up about two hundred thousand dollars worth of space in your bath.
Not even your frankenbein's good five hundred five thousand to do.
I'm good thing i'm good thing we're solving these problems you know this could really be one of the questions that i was just talking about.
Like you enter the interview and they're like alright you're in a bathroom how many dollar bills that need to a fill up the bathtub or be filled up while you're in it and please be as accurate as possible.
I've had a very similar interview question before but it was like golf balls filling up a limousine.
Questions like that you're like this is academically interesting like maybe for those of the pub with my friends and your couple of them are better at math it would be quite fun to like figure this out.
This doesn't change whether or not i know how to do a right fold.
What the fuck we don't hear that so how many so the question of regretting waking up this morning.
So the interview question is how many how many stars foundation shares do you need to liquidate to be able to cover your frankenbein's in a bathtub.
And then you need to liquidate entire supply liquid ice.
And the mighty python answer is like well in american or your your your European.
So if all the top ten validators liquidate their stars could they cover the junk of one validator.
That's the question because what's the biggest about ten ten million stars something like that.
That's what is it what's the biggest validated like isn't what is what it's got down.
Oh deliated to it.
I don't even know sixty million fifty nine million.
Some of that money is that enough to cover your junk.
Yeah it might be actually hang on.
What in power.
Yeah sixty million figment there.
I mean there's a good validator.
I'm glad they have sixty million fucking stars.
Yeah.
I'm glad they're number one.
That's probably running on like that's probably running on some some three eighty six sitting
at a data center that nobody's looked at in 20 years.
The big guys do not unplug on it.
Four dollars.
The person who's assigned to look after it has long left the company.
Black car.
Didn't leave their SSH keys when they wiped their laptop.
They're the only keys on that box.
They're just really hoping there's not a stargaze update upgrade anytime soon.
Yeah so that'll that'll do it.
So figment figment can can hide their modesty if they liquidated if they liquidated somehow
all of their delegates tokens.
So yeah there we go.
Wait so what is the drama do we actually come back to the question.
You heard it here first.
Six hundred sixty million stars will cover your junk sold at the right time sold at the
right time.
Well sold now.
That's today's prices you need 60 million stars to make five hundred thousand dollars
well six hundred thousand dollars to definitively American or European bathtub hide your modesty.
Either way welcome to Game of Nodes.
We're ignoring our guest.
Sorry Noel.
So we understand that you're very big in the sledging game.
How did you get into that and what made you kind of interested in going on on Twitter
and sledging other people involved in the ecosystem.
I haven't said a fucking goddamn thing on Twitter in like two months.
I learned it its best that way.
I mean it's actually correct.
Yeah but well the joke doesn't work that way.
So anyway to be fair actually you are right you haven't actually been a spy you haven't
been spying you know actually it's not that you haven't been spying so you haven't been
here you haven't even been off to walk about.
Fuck I've just been busy man.
It's like so much shit going on and yeah man I just got sick of Twitter.
It's like so much bullshit on there.
I've blocked people which I don't normally do.
I just whenever I opened up that feed I just got sick of seeing shit.
So I started blocking people.
Fuck all this noise that I need this.
And so yeah I've just been generally pretty fucking spiced up for the last couple of weeks.
Missed the group chats, the live group chats for a couple of weeks now for various reasons.
For some reason it's always been falling when I'm traveling.
Traveling doesn't make me happy either.
So yeah man I need a fucking holiday.
When you say spiced up do you mean like Dune perhaps?
Dune's spiced up.
Hey has everybody seen the trailer for part two?
When is Dune two?
Like October right?
Yeah.
You know what this is probably a hot take but I'm not super stoked for it.
The first one oh my god it was so dramatic.
Like Dune is a derma and it's a space opera so obviously it's dramatic.
But like oh my god like you're waiting like you're looking across sand and the music's
like blah.
It doesn't need to be this intense.
Yeah exactly.
There's like I didn't think the first one was that great.
Can I just say that I think that's actually a really good impression of the Sadaqara at
the beginning of the film.
To the point that I did that one morning where my wife wasn't expecting it.
She fucking freaked out.
She wasn't really disturbing.
But yeah I don't know I'm obviously a massive stan of the new film and I'm a massive stan
of Denis Villeneuve the director.
But if there's one guy who could split into two parts and maybe not fuck it up it's probably
Denis Villeneuve.
But I am worried.
I'm concerned.
I'm concerned like all people who get a good thing and fear it's going to end because
nothing's forever dude.
That's how I feel about part two.
I mean I thought that it was well I thought the first one was well done.
It was just I don't know it was a lot like not only was the three and a half hours but
it was also three and a half hours of like a buildup of suspense and then they had basically
no what's it catharsis at the end.
So the movie ends and you're like do I need to go smoke or something because I feel like
I didn't get that release of tension.
I have a hard to say with yet because it man so I didn't realize this is part two when
I went to see it.
I went with a friend and it was like Dune and then it has the subtype of part one.
I was like what the fuck in the cinema.
And then the end I was still kind of like not really I didn't really believe it until
the credits at the end of like oh my god I can't literally when they you know the bit
where it's going to be the end you're like oh no this is going to be the end.
This is literally going to be the end.
I can't believe I can't believe they do this.
This is literally the end.
It turns to my friend like I think this is the end this is the end of the film.
And like he's like I don't know I haven't checked my watch.
This isn't going to be the end of the film.
And I was like it's the end of the film mate.
They're literally about to roll credits on us and then they did we were both like oh
like sad child voice.
It was we just went to the pub and got drunk.
So that's how you got your emotional release but I think I just drove an hour and a half
home and I was like oh shit.
Yeah yeah I was with doctors and they were just like just went to the pub and then they just
you know got drunk and kind of aching like so who died this week.
You know and you're like yeah yes yeah doesn't mean we didn't get the film we wanted but
it's fine we can we just like wait two years till the next one that's cool man it's fine.
I just I just heard servers I don't have it so bad.
Yeah so Stargate's drama do we aren't actually like talking about?
We're talking about.
Yeah we're losing one of our regular panellists is going to the the Jake space.
So I feel like it's super fucking late here but I feel like I should.
It's prime time in the States baby.
Oh there goes Frey.
Go on he's like see you.
Deuces.
Thank God man that guy does not shut the fuck up.
He's back.
But I'm back.
I've been wondering like is it really that bad that I haven't been showing up like.
Wow.
I've missed about like seven minutes of airtime in that fucking three weeks I haven't been here.
You are spicy today.
I've long said that fucking Frey talks away too much.
Well yeah but then if he doesn't then none of us do.
It's ratio with fucking three guests.
I am an introvert who talks because he finds it awkward when there's not background noise.
So that's why I find doing the podcast so so very tiring because I have to fill a lot of dead air.
As you know well the podcast is like a professional bike sprint.
You have to get your elbows out and you have to fight for your for your position in order
to get to the lionel and I can't help it that you don't have a winning attitude anymore in terms
of getting your voice on the pod.
I just get sick of talking out of people.
I much prefer just to listen.
I'm a great listener who told you that.
What the fuck is going on today.
Like your camera's dying.
You're dying.
You're fucking backing up the lungs.
Bad.
Jesus Christ.
Should we call an ambulance.
If he goes down I'm calling the ambulance.
I'm not.
Send him where you're like.
I don't know.
He's in like the northern part of the UK.
He's in the north.
I think.
He's in the north.
Just keep going.
We're like chest infection is it love.
Well bloody join the back of the line.
I might have to go back exactly where he lives but we do know his house is shaped like a teepee.
The third floor behind the bikes.
Every fucking house is shaped like it.
I can't even emphasize enough how I basically live in an episode of Coronation Street.
So it is basically just it's just back to back around there love.
We really have like it's all taken mills.
What do you mean you know Alex mills the fuck is a mill.
A mill.
A mill like a lumber mill where you yeah where you know.
A mill like you know but water powered you know make clothes stuff you know mill.
You should really fucking take some of that like AWS money and get yourself some better internet.
Yeah I just I don't know what's happening.
I think it's like the laptop needs a needs a needs an upgrade.
It's being a bit of a pain because it's the internet is apparently 400 megabits up here
but it just keeps dropping out for some reason.
But so does anyone want to do the TLDR on the Stargaze thing which we've been like
dancing around for for 10 minutes.
Uh I feel like I wouldn't be the best person for that.
I can do it if no one else wants to fill in but.
I think you serpent knows all about it or I read the thing but unless it's in front of me
like I'm not going to be able to recite it.
I don't wait I'm actually might be the person for us since you guys validate on stars.
I have no I have no.
Valid.
I'm not on stars.
No I don't know that.
Yeah so I can throw out your last basket buddy.
Yeah exactly right.
I think the spiciest take we're going to see and probably lost myself a lot of delegations.
I did I think I did also lose my Juno delegation so I'm I'm free ball on it.
All right go ahead.
Yeah okay so.
I would wait for the assessment on that because we due to various reasons we've changed around
a couple of rules for the first round if we ever get to the end of it.
I think I must have dropped off because I don't even felt your fucking form.
Yeah you you're not getting shit.
Stick your form up your ass stupid fucking.
You're going to make it even more convoluted and fucking catered.
You want like proof and shit.
Jesus like who the fuck do you think you are.
You want links.
God damn it.
Anyway if I get it my way I want to make it fucking automatic so people don't even need to apply.
They just get delegated to if they do the right things.
If you believe that you wouldn't have a fucking form.
I'm actually building a tracker like bought right now that could track anything you want to track
probably we should talk after this.
Yeah man if you've got something that can make my life easier than spending fucking 200 hours on
something that I don't get paid for I'm all ears.
We can yeah we'll see.
I'm using all internally right now but I don't see why I couldn't make the data available to you
if you wanted it.
Anyway ignoring that so back to stars.
Yeah that's one drama short see can we keep on we need to talk about the other drop of the
specific you know the drama.
Let's stay on track yeah let's stay on track yeah.
Yeah so okay so I think the the start of this the genesis the nation drama was
Don Kryptonium posted a a google sheet of like they're trying to figure out who a
Star's Whale was that sold six million dollars USD worth of stars over the course of
basically last year.
My understanding is they didn't know who was originally he just tracked all of their
transactions on osmosis and they have a chart that goes with it where like you can see
like two hundred thousand dollars sold and then the stars price kind of dips right and
it just happens repeatedly.
Well Don posted this she's like hey who's this whale I don't know and then I think it was
I think it was someone from Osmosis lab maybe that was like oh that actually is Jake that's
Jake Hartnall's and so then more more research was done who's confirmed to be to be Jake
Hartnall's account and from there so I think that a lot of that came out yesterday that
he did selling yesterday but I'm not gonna make any claim about whether selling is good
or bad or whatever I mean we're all in crypto to make money right so take however you will
but I think the follow-up drama is you make money in Cosmo in theory that's the goal I
think some people do yes some people I mean I just hate sleep so it's there's that too
so there's that bit that's the first part part one starts with six million dollars of stars
was sold and those that did that too like apparently it was more like or like two thirds
of how much was ever made off of the star NFTs and stuff but anyway and then the follow-up
drama was today was that the stars team came out with a tweet thread I think my understanding
is Jake was removed from the stars like founding team he gave his founding stars back I don't
know how that would have worked because presumably there's a transaction oh it wasn't like
bested or anything they must they must be like the visiting period must be up it was relatively
short I think it was like okay is there one yeah I think oh yeah one one year lock up invested
for one year so we're past that I think right got it so so he sent his stars back and then
following that there's just kind of like a like a drama fest of like Jake is not hasn't even been
even been active here and he's stealing code and yeah some of these other ones are great right
yeah and so that's kind of where they're just accusations right like there's no uh much like
the fucking recurring Juno drama there's no one actually puts any facts to anything they just say
stuff right I mean I didn't see any like hard facts about the other claims only the spreadsheet of
sales I guess but was is the spreadsheet of sales is it like a wolf thing where they only put the
sales on there and none of the buys uh that's an interesting point I didn't check that but yes I
believe it is only sales that are on there on this yeah because that's like I remember that that
Takumi sheet that that went around that everyone keeps banging on about where it's like tracked all
of wolf's accounts but it's like it's just tracked like IBC out or whatever and it hasn't like
tracked any IBC inns or anything like that and like I know the wolf has accounts where he's just
bought up shitloads of Juno over periods of time so yeah I don't know take it with a grain of salt
until you see the full picture I say but even still like you know I yeah I'm not going to really
comment on whether selling them's beyond the his pervy or not I mean I mean do you get something
does someone have something that they're not willing to sell like there's a price for everything
right I mean isn't the fucking point that you you make some money you can sell it like the token
only what do they think was gonna happen what why'd they have the fucking tokens like yeah yeah and
there's nothing there's nothing there's nothing I mean the morality of it whether or not a founder
can sell is that's something that each individual can make that decision right I mean that's up to
the individual but there's nothing like illegal or immoral about what happened like these are open
open tokens and it went through the vesting period of those other ones those weren't sold and you can
see like from this picture I'll put the link in the show notes but there's there's sales before the
price popped like early on in in 2020 in January and it's all the way to the peak it's on the way
down and then there's like a I don't know what is this a six month or eight month break after there's
nothing going on and it happens again you know in 2023 so it looks pretty consistent I'm not sure
the values in terms of number of star sold and the dollars are way down this year but so is the price
so I don't know I mean it I mean I that that this enough I mean it has a material impact on the price
of stars catalyzing the downward pressure right at the airdrop and most recently at six cents
like that's true I mean selling large amounts does definitely has a huge impact on the LPs we all
know that right but I don't think it'd be easy to argue that he is maybe not to the full extent but
is giving back I think he has two full-time developers hired like on basically his staff
working on products within the cosmos so he is in its sense still being productive with that money
sure it's not you don't just you don't need this much money for two devs though but you know whatever
maybe not necessarily like productive for just stargaze though I guess might be the
yeah the issue yeah yeah and this I mean I don't know about the code piece of that side of it but
I mean the idea that as a founder of a chain and if you start putting large sales in there and
really drop in price down it that's definitely painful right like if you have a somebody selling
large enough amounts to really move liquidity pools in really lower price over a period of time
and knowing that you know you know Tara doesn't fucking help the fact right so all that shit
happened in here too these are around the same time frames and so that's challenging right and
but the whole thing around like being involved in I do want to talk about other things too because
we could talk about that somebody else came out I think it was about about we'll come to it but
somebody was talking about the idea of working for multiple chains and how how how prolific that is
in the cosmos we should talk about that too at some point but I don't know you know as a as a side
note I wouldn't mind knowing where that spreadsheet actually originated what do you mean like this I
assume it's transactions off of mincegan right yeah you don't you mean you don't think it's from
done kryptonium well how many transactions are on there does it look like it's like 100 no no
no there's like at least at least there's gotta be I don't know this is like the number of dollar
bills to cover your junk in a bathtub but there's a lot of dots on this thing there's gotta be at
least I would say at least a hundred and a hundred transactions maybe okay let me go from the one
account or is it like just all around I don't know that that date is not in there it just it just says
it just says it doesn't it doesn't say if it's all from the same wallet or not okay it looks like
there's literally 99 cells I can I'll post it in the chat yeah I don't know there's a bunch there's
a bunch of there's lots of dots each one's a transaction right so they're at this one graphs
date and then dollars in USD although I don't know exactly what that's coming from I'd rather see
I'd rather see IBC transactions out I guess than dollars in USD I don't think you really make that
decision unless they're unless they're actually maybe this is the osmosis wallet and they're
tracking that I don't know what the hell's going on here yeah that's correct it's the osmosis wallet
that they're tracking but that doesn't necessarily mean it's only stargaze right because Juno would
been here as well I don't know that doesn't mean it has each one of these has to be star sales unless
they let's say filter that down but maybe yep it's filtered down it's filtered down to
star token in then token out basically is what it's filtered down to yeah so there you go no so
yeah okay well it kind of feels like psyops to me you know being a skeptic which part you mean just
break this coming out yeah it just feels like a bit of a targeted takedown you know what I mean
like but down works for stargaze right so is this from the inside out
I don't know yeah down yeah he does so is that mean like hey we want to figure out who this is
and oh shit we know or do we always know who this was and so now down is the uh I feel like it's
pretty unlikely that people didn't know if I think it's obviously that kind of volume that was materially
affecting the price yeah I feel like it's probably been known for a long time I mean if I was a chain
owner I would I would be watching daily IBC transactions right I would watch the shit out of
that because I don't want to know exactly what's coming in and coming out and I would think that
early on you would know about this two years ago right you wouldn't or you wouldn't know about or
whatever it is 18 months ago you wouldn't know about today I feel like this goes back to conversation
we had a long time ago around like a certain amount like certain standards that could be created
around cosmos chains not that not that like chains should have to follow it but like these are some
checkpoints you should look for to be able to trust a chain or like the founders having a one
year investing period for example it's kind of a red flag for for like the tokenomics of the chain
right yeah like once it hits that that point they're just going to be burned away right potentially
but bear in mind in this case that the the tokens that were sold similar to the wolf
case actually are vested token they're the they're the interest minted on vested tokens so that the
vesting the lockup is all by the by it means nothing because you just stake the tokens and you're
going to get depending on how well how many tokens are actually locked up you're going to get 100%
of them back year one or well juneau is 100% other chains it's usually around 100 stargaze I guess
because of the inflation model it would have been like 70% 60% my maths somebody check my maths you
know whatever the point is that you're going to get a significant portion of those in year one
because of the the the way that the third thing works or whatever so it's less it's less it was it's
the combination of the thing that you always see saying which is about lockup and investing is also
about like the the tokenomics itself and the irony here right is that retail want super high
invest interest rates that the reward people who enter early right and especially in app chain winter
that was the thing and the problem with that is that retail win while the price is going up initially
and the devs win and that's great everybody wins and now we end up in the depth of a bear market
substantially later where these tokenomics that were never sustainable have proven to be not
sustainable until there's another bull run and while we're doing the all let's eat each other
thing it's like ah look back to this thing that happened at that point you know are people sold
and it's like well yeah but if you were bought on a monday and sold on a friday during that same period
you would have probably got a 20 or 30 return on your initial which is insanity like the saving
saving rates where i live have been less than a percent for the last six seven years until you
know interest rates have gone up again recently so there is a little bit of a reality check here
which is that if anything sounds too good to be true it usually is and the whole of crypto
is a completely unsustainable tokenomics model that is fraught with systemic risk and if
well you know it's the it's the entire function of pumponomics right you fucking this is like
what people are buying into and people get burnt time and time and time again and continue to do
the same dumb shit like if you've got a fucking i reserve that 800 like apr
you know like we've been a part of this right where we've been in on chains early doors as
validators and we've just compounded our way into a tax bill then it all falls apart and you look at
it now and you're like what the fuck was i thinking but at the same time you know i mean you know maybe
the the reality here is i we can sit here and say you know whatever because obviously there was enough
to cover the tax bill in the end and and and things kind of panned out okay and lesson learn you know
but you know obviously people have been burnt more right and so they're angry and that and so you know
that's it's difficult because you're just like you know you can't just be like dismissing the
fact that people have been burned by the ponsonomics but you're also just like if you look at the regular
economy which is already unstable you know like look at the stock market which is already unstable
these are unstable complex systems and then you look at crypto and you and you don't understand
the level of risk that you're playing with i there i i do have a limited amount of sympathy for not
understanding that because it is very very obvious the level of systemic risk involved
i thought i think people know i think people know like you know you look at the people that are
jumping on board with things like dogecoin and pepe and fucking anyone of like 10 000 other
shitcoins on bnb and people know that they could get rugged at any minute they know that like you
know any any number of things can happen but you know there's also the small chance that they can
buy nine dollars worth of pepe and fucking sell it three days later for nine million dollars like
they're taking risk to get the easy payday but what happens 99 times out of 100 is that you know
most of those people get burnt and they lose their nine dollars and you aggregate with nine
dollars is together and then some questions involved in this drama which are interesting right
one of them is is it okay for a dev to take profit i say yes doubly so in a bull where
the sell can be absorbed is you know what is their obligation to the chain that's a more
interesting one right and and how long does it last you know if there's no contract i don't know
like i've recently gone back to doing some corporate contracting and i have a my current
contract has a series of very very interesting break clauses on it where obviously i don't get
to exercise these if i do anything where i say i want to break the contract as the weak little
billy small balls i have the luxury of going to fuck myself and receiving no pay right that that
would be you know us as a company our our obligation ends and we get no money right but there are
there is there's always fucking spicy things in contract that you they're never going to get used
but when you dig down into a long contract where there's like if the board of directors
decides that there is a willy a reasonable case for termination without pay and no additional
payments you know you basically the billy big balls can tell billy small balls to to fuck
himself and also you're not getting paid all of these interesting things that complex contractual
things are just not fucking there right so then how is it is difficult to then say well okay so
somebody was a founder brought the thing to market it launched the products live brought the main
product to to to the market what's their obligation from that point going forward it well it's
fired and the allocation is a genesis allocation and from the point of view of the tax man that's
your money you got to pay tax on it you got to pay capital gains on it yeah i think there's like
unspoken expectation that like founders will do the what's best for the community i think that's
like the unspoken expectation from the community but is it written in law anywhere no should
they bake better things into how the token distribution the founders goes yes if users
don't want to get dumped on like for example maybe founders tokens shouldn't be able to take advantage
of pumponomics for example um maybe they don't earn rewards for two years or something like that you
know what i mean like it's already a pretty big bag and if you want long-term alignment with the
chain then you really don't want to reward a short-term you know gain so you know i feel like
there's things people can do they just don't do it because they're the founders and obviously they
want to sell fucking tokens and the only way they're going to get it on vested tokens is with
the interest from the the pumponomic but you know it's just people like the vast majority of people
entering into an early stage chain are not there for the technology of the chain they're there for a
hype and pumponomics and to try and make a quick buck in my opinion it's the long-term people who
stick around who are mainly getting burnt by the falling token price after the realization of like
you know well after after sell pressure after because the graph goes the same every single time
is like you know people on board they want to get the they want to get in on the on the returns in
the short period of time they buy up the token the token moons at some point there's like a there's
a nexus at some point where the returns aren't good enough to or the people selling out from making
the returns are eclipsing those entering trying to get in on the returns and then it goes down it's
the exact same cycle every single fucking time yeah the only way that changes it and the only way
that changes now is if those chains start generating revenue to the point where it pumps that stuff back
up because it's not the revenue the revenue isn't like this not going to happen for years you need
you need to steadily grow a user base you need to like develop your products like most of these
chains are launched without you know good proper products um develop they're they're like minimum
viable product to get out there and get the token on the market so they can sell it to continue
development it's not you know these are early stage ventures right which is why there's so much
money in l ones i mean note this is no different than any other business right because you have
especially as a as a as like a founder structure you have vcs involved your outside investors
they're all at the trough right they're all they've all put in money in some sort of sense or time
and they're all waiting for the time when they can pull that money out or at least a percentage of it
because they're all making decisions on how much do i pull out what do i not pull out
and is this is this going to go higher than this and so am i giving up future rewards right it's
no different and so retail people meaning like we would be considered not us as validators but
we're a different group actually even worse than i think some parts of retail because we have
anyway but as a retail person either they're to your point like they're either trying to
time it out to get to the point where it's going to be worth something and try to sell it off at
some sort of peak or at least run it up 100% or 200% or they are or they're going to be able to see
that go away completely because the timeline of the founders and others who might have more data
than a retail person does make the decision that this is the time to be able to remove it so like
i don't know like i'm actually really my question to jake would be why did you not i mean i don't
know how much i don't actually don't know how much how much percentage of ownership was sold in
these numbers because all i see is the dollars what i'd really like to see is of the stars owned
what percentage did he dump if all that money turned into like hey i had 10% and 10% gone after a
founder got to a point of being able to liquid something out that's actually not that bad and
like that seems like a reasonable percentage and and maybe maybe the numbers are really high and
it's too much for the liquidity pools but who knows because he doesn't know what's coming next right
he's he's selling at 80 cents he might be thinking the thing's going to 18 bucks right so in his eyes
i'm selling it at 90 or 10% of the value because i want to be able to pull some money off the table
that would be reasonable if you sold 90% of it and that is a that's a strength that's a showing of
i have no faith in this thing that i built right that's that's a different piece and i can't you
can't tell it from the numbers here so i don't know what the numbers are so if you're looking at it
like the intentions aside as far as the the chain like jake's attitude towards the chain or anything
like that aside right when you're looking at like the the buy sell ecosystem as a whole yeah even though
there was sales from that account at certain periods of time which may have affected the price
right when you look at it holistically if he didn't take that someone else would have and i don't
think that materially there would be much difference in the outcome for the price over that period of
time anyway it's not either it's not either or though is it because people are selling during
that time anyway right it's not like it's not it's a it's it's not like somebody else didn't
sell because jake was selling all these numbers right so that's what i'm saying like he might have
taken a lot of profit off the table or he might have taken you know some um some lp off the table
but if he didn't someone else would have it's not like the price was going to stay up here because
jake didn't sell it was always going to go down it's just a matter of how fast right so the way
i'm thinking about this a little bit is like you know nine out of ten companies fail in the first
three years right um knowing that facts yeah you know as business owners everybody in this podcast
is a business owner um if you have a good year let's say it happens to be your first year you take
as much of the liquid cash out of the company and put it into your own name as you can because you
got bills to pay you've got a mortgage you got whatever does your accountant turn around to you
and say you lack faith in your business or does your accountant go well you've got enough liquid
cash to run your business that's probably a sensible move like that's what i mean like there is a kind
of there's an element here of like you know if you know that that there is an inherent risk
that it goes no matter how hard you work on it no matter how many years there's an inherent risk
that it does go to zero which is the evidence we have the what do you do like for virtue
signaling reasons you don't take you don't take a profit it's just the amount that's what i'm saying
like that's yeah i don't agree that if he doesn't sell in this price continues to go down that doesn't
make any sense to me like like i don't again i don't know how many tokens are in here but like
there's a big numbers and it doesn't mean that like that price if those don't end up in the
equity pools somebody else would fill that gap i totally don't agree with that like it might be a
percentage of that but 100% to say that means we can predetermine what the price is regardless of
how many people sell or buy like i don't know what that means the price follows market sentiment and
the market like out of all of the the tokens in the cosmos most of them lost 90 plus percent during
the bear market and all of them we're going to do that after a run up from a pump anyway so
so yeah i think yes i do what's up but what's a pump though 80 cents the initial the initial pump
i was just talking about it before june 1 to 45 this is that 80 cents are we at a is that a pump
number or is it is it 90% is it is it 1% of its of its capability like like you're like this is
hindsight you're looking at the graph to make a decision to say this is a pump number but at the
time at 60 cents i was looking at to say this thing should be over a buck right like like this is
this is a great product it's delivering a ton this has a long runway ahead and to say that that's a
pump time or that's a dump time at 80 cents i don't know if i don't know if everybody felt that at
the time for what it's worth i remember in lisbon in 2021 so this would have been immediately
shit wasn't 2021 how fucking old are we how long have we been doing this shit we're doing this podcast
over Jesus christ so yeah like nearly two years ago in lisbon okay so nobody's obviously talking
about price but i feel like there was a general vibe that the stargaze nailing the f the nft thing
would be over one dollar easy in this first couple years yeah i would that was that was
because because like i don't know where i've pulled that out of my memory but i feel like that was
maybe that was just me and the other the the other validated djens that were going to be
validating stargaze and we were just all fucking g in each other up over one dollar plus stargaze
yeah but um that's that is that is a number that i feel was deemed pretty fucking reasonable
and that well i mean look where we are now but it there was a kind of sense of like you know a
dollar and then maybe half a dollar as a as a as a price floor would be pretty fucking sweet
obviously the price floor is more like the the ath but you know i so there's a bit of that but
then there's so there's something else that like i think is worth kind of considering is like you
know startup founders are already the most risk comfortable people um you know kind of in the
in the market i suppose and then doubly so in the um doubly so doing doing this fucking mad shit
so there's another element of you know that's my previous point where you recognize how unlikely
it is that you do succeed and make profit when you see that on the table what do you do i mean
again it all it all depends on i think the percentages of what that means so like i said
it's tough to it's tough to figure out what's going on from this graph because it's all us dollars
and in us dollars it looks really dramatic i'd really like to see percentage of ownership that
would actually show me a little bit more yeah in the in the chat ben davis uh who's obviously the
other the other part-time host of gamut nodes um maybe should maybe should literally just actually
join gamut nodes but anyway that's uh that's a shout out thought um ben join us on the podcast
said that on coin gecko first half the sales daily volume is between one
and two million some days as high as four million so uh summary that in context at summary from our
analyst on the trading floor ben davis he's called in real time yeah yeah it's it's like the day to
day isn't it we're going live to ben davis at the european's the european economic summit um
it's unlikely he really moved the market much on any given day thanks for now and now it's
huge studio so presumably most of that like you know given the disparity in price between selling
at the high and the low right presumably most of that dollar value was made in the in the pump at
the initial pump right so if he's sold six million dollars worth of of tokens right say it was all
around at h it's only three million tokens yeah so out of that's ten percent right at least i well
maybe that would be reward i'm not sure it was all 30 staked or there were 30 plus some other ones as
well i don't know whatever but you're right it might be just purely rewards based on early apr
right yeah so you know i think there's not like the numbers don't carry a lot of context and it's
just you know i'd like to see a bit of a better analysis than a than a graph i look forward to
you but clearing that next week so there's also like you gotta remember that these chains were
predominantly airdrops right so i think that stargaze in the long term also suffers from the same
problems as juno does and that i think is that the early airdrop recipients have no skin in the game
at all and probably received the biggest bags there are on juno even in comparison the people who
are buying up like long term having a bag of 50 000 juno is still today after the drop is still 25
grand right or 30 grand and over the the year or so that juno's been live i would almost guarantee
that 90 percent of the cell pressure on juno is from original bag holders collecting monthly
and selling their fucking juno so and i think that a lot of the sentiment around developers
and stuff dumping on the community is absolute bullshit i mean there is a little bit of truth
to it in that but that's what you want those particular bags of juno for is to to be able
to sell it to continue development on juno like you don't want to just stall development because
price go down but i think if you look at the long term cell pressure i think 90 percent of it comes
from original bag holders you don't give a fucking just care about adam and a dumping on the community
not not these are the forces that they they use is like a talking piece on twitter i want to add
to that that i think that that's kind of a a it's a great point one of the criticisms that was
thrown towards juno quite a bit was how they didn't convert a lot of their juno bag to the team
into usd or something non-juno in order to that's my criticism i think they should have i think in
the run-up they should have taken that opportunity to to capture the the hype and put that money into
usd it's it doesn't show a lack of faith in in the in the chain it shows a long-term risk management
strategy that allows the chain to continue develop after the hype's over and also if you sell hard
into a into a rising market then it also keeps the cap on the price and stops people getting
wrecked as hard so exactly that's what i was getting at was that i yeah i think that that
jake's move um it wasn't the team tokens that were being sold but it's still like it's part of a
risk management structure right like the team bag i don't know if there was a team bag for stars if
there was like a development fund and then individual funds i don't know what the genesis
allocation looked like but diversifying is part of good risk management that's just that's that's
that's just key that's everything that's a fact um and the fact that he did diversify out and that
he apparently didn't sell any of his initial his um genesis allocation just the staking rewards i think
that says something as well i think that like he couldn't right they were locked well but they
haven't been locked for the last six months i'm not sure what the timelines are because it was i
think it was that chain launched not maybe somebody else can help me out but let me take a look but
it was it was a year lock and then and then october the first 2021 i believe 2021 so october
it's like october 2022 and there are there are sales after october 2022 so it might be but those
might be rewards or some but you're right the the full 30s area right so actually it hasn't
sold any principle on that it's only been rewards off of it right so i don't know to me it's a lot
it's absolutely a lot like that's i would say that goes beyond just risk management but it doesn't
change the fact that it is a risk management strategy that he executed and i wouldn't fault
him for it though again six million is quite a bit all right do we kill this freaking topic
yeah i want to talk about ledger or the secret halt well the secret halt's not quite as interesting
as what's going to come out here soon um probably the next week what is that's like i'm so
how's that before we move on we can put a bullet in this but i sounds like we're not going to
want to say one more thing which is that i'm pretty certain i know the context of the
accusation about the code yeah if it's the thing i think is it was configuration for how to get
start it's basically configuration ripped out of an xjs app for kepler and it was thrown into the
juno starter kit for letting cosmwaz and developers just fucking spin up a starter kit to connect
to kepler if it's the thing i'm thinking of which i i know literally came out of stargaze repo
technically it shouldn't have it was a private repo but it's literally the connect to kepler
stuff that was then used to help other developers get started and that we made i i literally made a
video on callum obviously was also we did that whole series i remember there being a thing around
that code and if that's the thing that is then honestly jesus fucking christ that's petty um if
it's not i'm wrong fuck fray was you know but there was vaguely something around it yeah whatever
i did the cold the whole code thing is the one thing there i'm like that is that's just my
bullshit detector is completely through the roof but you know i obviously know jake and have known
jake for for some time so i kind of i'm kind of biased on this one i kind of know i know all the
parties involved and i don't really want to throw shake because i actually like everybody involved
a lot um but i will also say that i think the entire thing stems essentially from an interpersonal
issue and i think the fact that it came from don who effectively works for stargaze is actually
not a fucking coincidence and i think it is a little bit of a manufactured drama when a couple
of people really should have just privately resolved something that had been an issue for a
while yeah and i think that's what it's kind of what i was saying before is is i think anybody who's
if you're part of that core team you know this is going on so for it to wait for 18 months until
may of 2023 clearly there was something else happening like this is a maybe just kind of enough
it got enough um outside of visibility that something had to happen right or something
similar to that because there was too much fervor there's too much foam getting generated here or
something but like i don't think anything that any of these obviously they've been talking about this
for a while right and i don't think there's anything that's like surprising here from folks who have
been involved so it's just the timing is weird um i think it's my point i think ben davis is
abandoned this for the other chat yeah there's a jay farred chat twitter spaces uh i will i'll
post it in the chat in case you guys want to recording it too yeah i imagine i imagine there's
going to be some good drama in there uh well i know it's a view account fill of a cliff well
there's a better drama elsewhere ben did say he was going to go there and say how there you do
this during game of nodes which i which i believe he will do so i appreciate that um yeah man i well
i mean i noticed that as well that uh uh usurper you had uh mentioned the car this moment my brain's
just the baby tired baby shit like just you said you tweeted at jake how dare you how dare you lock
up with game of nodes yes it's a bunch of bullshit i think is what i said i said i said i know you've
got some shit going on but twitter spaces during game of nodes is by far the largest infraction
reveals a lot of life far which i bloody unacceptable i stand behind schiltz ledger or secret which
we're doing talk about first we probably shouldn't talk about secret because it's not that fun next
week it'll be way more fun i think i was a way i can't wait to hear why what exactly happened there
was a there was a lock up uh well so there was a halt for the upgrade and there was like a bug in it
but the follow-up from the bug is what's super interesting which we can talk about next week
because it hasn't been fully um so did they end up rolling back a block or what did they end up
doing to you know they just put up a new version and then we upgraded version you're going it just
took a long time so that wasn't super dramatic um it was a knowing from a validator perspective
because there was like four different steps like the first step was like okay do the upgrade and
then we all got one block forward and then everything halted and so then we had all had to
turn pruning off for a block or yeah we had to turn off pruning so we became archive nodes
for a couple blocks and then it halted again and then they had to investigate that for like four
blocks and then we had to upgrade to the next one and then we had to turn on two different
hauls and then we had to put the next one and so like if anyone creates an archive node it's going
to be absolute hell in like a 10 block phase but it's that's not a huge deal what's more interesting
is what's gonna come out because pre marketplace launch um and you know hindsight's also always 2020
but um muting null nulls just to mute them face annoying shit all right god damn it that meant
like i didn't have like a chance to we know that that's going on all right so can i just observe
that i we obviously are friends of jacob's podcast but i'm not sure doing a twitter space
right in the middle of the drama is the greatest idea there is a 101 watching this seven year
what are you doing people go to the fucking twitter spaces i'd dude if i make six million
dollars and get caught doing it and this type of met i guarantee i will bring it to gamernones
yes please do and then i guarantee like that's where shrewd is shrewd stuff they're listening
to that shit why didn't he just come on game of nodes and tell everyone why didn't he just like
all right listen we're gonna talk about on game of nodes agree 2100 utc yeah i mean to be fair
he can't fucking soapy reception here would they that's that's what we needed actually maybe we
should that's what we should be doing we should be we should be following the drama we should be
inviting the drama and i mean like that i rather we have a great we created some last week but
then we only mentioned it one hour and 25 minutes and we didn't we didn't like pre warm the drama
it's just rama mentioned in the chat then we were like oh yeah we should talk about the drama
like oh yeah forget about that say we literally originated it's heavy originated drama but
we should bring people on here to hack out this shit yeah just transfer and quit it here like
just come on here next week on game from stargaze and jake from stargaze in the form really from
the symbol formerly known as stargaze right there's stargaze so um near me what about yours
and end is don't forget about yours for hay thing is the whore hay is just i get i guarantee whore hay
is the nice guy stood in the corner being like guys guys guys please make it stop whore hay is
honestly the most in the world this guy i had a very lovely dinner with him he's a very kind man
he's just so lovely he's just very kind as um he has a very smart very intelligent um yeah come on
guys don't be like that let's all sit together have a nice cup of tea and talk this out i i feel
like whore hay was almost like moment out of fire yeah now i'm curious about other uh wallets on
stargaze like did shane and whore hay make you know a decent amount i hope they did right
not decent enough though yeah it's community time to get out the shit dig in shovel there's a there's
a chippy uh there's a hippie a few miles south of uh of where i live uh i cycle past quite a bit i
think is a chip shop i think it's a chippy it's called um aptos and stargaze i'm not even fucking
kidding it's literally called that and every time i ride past it on my way to the the station down
there uh sometimes i have to go down there to get trains i'm like ah my delegation strategy but now
can i trick you know can i continue you know i'm obviously gonna keep our stars i think this is
a good chain but um yeah so are we talking about like french fries when you say chips
because i was talking about like okay all right just make sure because i don't i don't know what
people are talking about a fish and chip shop a fish and chip shop fish and chips got it yeah you
may have heard fries and chips um materially different things are they are they completely
different to french fries that french fries french fries and not chips okay what what's the difference
uh well the fried is a long skinny piece of potato deep fried no a chip is a fat boy no deep
fried yeah chips okay so what's a fat boy they're all fried like he's like it's like
it's got more potato content than fucking fat content you know we would call it like a like a
steakhouse fried yeah okay like you know what i mean like like uh either skin on or skin off but
something that's cut into large slices like inch wide you because it's the whole potato as well you
get the edges so yeah you get the skin those are all fries in the us and then you get some of the
bits and pieces still fries yeah let's grab another unit of measurement as well it's
sucked up no it's just a fry that's it all right we got 18 minutes and i want to talk about the
ledger drama let's talk about let's do it ledger me out ledger drama here here's the ledger drama
so ledger this was first announced so here's how it transpired at like 3 a.m they pushed a commit
to their get hub and in the get hub there was a change log where they're like oh with this change
we can now shard private keys and send them to companies or something it's pretty inane like that
and naturally someone saw it and was like hold on a second the hell is this and what it came to be
was ledger ledger is coming out ledger the hardware wallet that is is coming out with
a new product called ledger recover they weren't it seems like to me that they weren't prepared to
actually like announce this yet it was because someone was trolling the change log ledger recover
what you do is basically you subscribe to it's $10 a month and if you subscribe to it you accept a
transaction on your ledger and that will shard your private key and send it to three different
companies those three companies then have to like get your driver's license or passport or something
in order to have like a vigil identifier but the purpose is with those shards with two out of three
of them you can then rebuild your private key with those shards right so the drama in this one of
the many dramas in this like there's a lot of issues if it's all based on identity and we can
deep fake something is it put potentially you might be able to deep fake like a video call or
something but anyway ignoring that ignoring like government actors that can go to a company and
be like okay well you have a shard and i want it ignoring that the implication there is ledger
does in fact have access to your private key when it was promised that they don't uh they cannot get
it from your from your hardware they couldn't re-extract it thank you yes that's about right
I think that goes the other way or or but I don't know if we know that it doesn't mean that the user
has to reimp... well we can get to that if they have to re-impot it or they can actually just it's
just a firmware and now it extracted but could it just be a proof that comes from the private key
because if you know wait yeah no there's no way I'm doing that cryptographically is that
at some point they would have to cut they would have to slice that key up right like if they are
doing that and even if they even if they have if they mix a salt in there or the users passcode
plus something from ledger or something else right they they still would have to have the full
key knowledge to be able to do that and they do they've said that they do yeah you have to accept
the transaction it'll go in it'll get your key it'll basically turn it into three different
through seven shards it won't have your secret recovery phrase your mnemonics because that's
only generated on the fly but that's another kind of point that people are getting lost in like
your secret recovery phrase your mnemonic is hiding your private key if they've accessed your
private key that's more serious than them having access to mnemonic yes but whatever um right so
and then this is different from what trezor does because we were talking about this as well so
trezor has a trezor trezor they have something similar we're not similar they have something
where you can shard the key at the time of creation right and i don't even know if you can do this if
you recover a key i assume you could but you can't do if you recover it has to be a new generator
a key has to be newly generated key okay that's that's the key point to me sorry yeah no so so
trezor is the thing where if you generate a new key at the time of generation during that generation
process it can shard those and create three separate pieces with some passcode on top of that or
multiple passcode i don't know what the hell works and then you can be able to distribute that out to
two or three others if you want to be able to do that up to 16 even oh really oh you oh yes you'd
be like seven of 15 or whatever the hell you want that yeah eight of 15 and i think that's that's one
of the big issues for me with this is that they're actually using shamir backups for the key that's
what really annoys me so there's the ledger has the capability of doing a backup but they don't
allow it for users apparently um and my issue is that trezor i think the way they go about is really
smart where if you create your wallet then we can do a backup now if we don't do a backup now we're
not doing it full stop ledger then allowing it allowing the private key to be access to create
a backup that bothers me i don't know if it should bother me i don't know if there's a meaningful
difference there but it does i guess it's happening before in trezor's situation it's happening before
it's put into the secure element type of idea and so once it's in there it's in there is that the is
that the difference i guess because i guess in this situation i think people are really going
to apeshit around on this ledger thing is that the idea that the firmware is being changed where
that secure element can be read right there really is a demeaning feel different so the way that
hardware wallets work is a very high level abstraction right there's like there's three
aspects to using hardware wall right you've got your client so that's like made a mask and then
you've got your app which is on the ledger and then you have the secure element itself right so
there's there's three components so the client will then send a transaction to the app the app
will then interface with the secure module which the secure module will then actually do a return
of the private key to the app so the private key exits the secure module on the ledger the important
part is that these two things like the the the app and the ledger are isolated so the the private
key while it is taken out of secure enclave it is still like it's still only on the device
and then the response is sent back to the client right yeah the ledger recover my issue with that
is that it then leaves the device fully but going back to the original question about the tracer
so i don't i don't think it's a meaningful difference that it's split up yeah like before it
goes into enclave or not i think it's just like having an understanding of what what can access
or and what where the key can go once the key has been set right it's like it's the user story the
user's expectations now the expectation is oh well the the key obviously can now exit the
hardware device when previously that was like that that wasn't allowed right right so if and then
that's only up to the like the applicates like you said it's because the application can do it
and so they programmed an application that can do it so the real the smartest story here for
for ledger and i assume that i've only loosely followed this so i don't know what their their
corporate line is but is to presumably just say well look for it folks you know this is why you
should do your own research for apps you're installing on device because they all yeah how do
you think we upgrade you know when there's changes to these to the to change that mean something
meaningfully changed about the way they sign you run an upgrade on your ledger and it continues to work
look now stop and think a second about what that means that the software that's interacting with
your ledger device and the software on it can be upgraded and that software can touch your key
so it follows it follows that if something malicious were to happen with that software
you would be in i believe the technical term is a spot of bother so there's a whole bunch
of interesting things there but i think like you say probably the biggest problem is it's
it's the expectations of the user who's assume this is fork knocks rather than an embedded device
running some software yeah and i think the issue also is like hold on i gotta think about how to
how to word this um i'm not thinking a good way of wording it i guess i guess by
yes well i think you go ahead no go ahead well i think the other thing i think i was noticing
a difference in these two different models is that ledger like that hardware device does allow you
to recover a key that exists and i'm not sure how many other hardware devices do that because i think
i was looking at a tweet i'll put in the show notes as well but there's a tweet from somebody from the
from the trust infrastructure team at apple and and so ledger his point was that the his or her i
don't know um the ledger is following properties that cd is the cd is user provided in clear text
the cd is encrypted by the device key derived from a user passphrase and a ledger owned shared key
that's burned into every device when the device is locked or when the cd is exported right which
you need to mix of both the hardware as well as the passphrase i'm providing again that's why if
i put in three times it it deletes it right no i kind of shit here it can only leave the device
encrypted if these are wants that with the same guarantees that the current model which allows
exporting keys in an encrypted way through a user provide passphrase already unlike apple secure
enclave which doesn't allow you to provide pre-existing keys and only to create them within
the scp which i think is the same way that we were talking about with them in that situation the treasure
treasure the device has to create it right um it can't be like user input to be able to do that
it's just saying it's a different model and so ledger's firmware has always been upgradable and
you're already trusting them with the device in the first place the passphrase and cryptic
key can now get exported in a three-way split to three different institutions so so the so the
so the implication there is what it uh go ahead so the implication there is i i'm not that familiar
with how treza works but can you not upgrade the software on treza then because the i could be wrong
but my understanding would be that in the treza case the any software you install on device can
interact with the private key that's inherently how it must work like that's how hardware wallets
work right so at the root of all this where the other wallets are like ah but we we don't let you
recover your key after the fact which don't get me wrong i think is probably a feature in another bug
they're also they're also kind of just quietly not mentioning the real thing that i think is
freaked users out like which is basically what schultz said which is that users i think don't
have the right mental model for how that software is actually able to access your private key right
and i think that's the same across the hardware wallets if i've understood correctly and if i
understand hardware wallets which let's face it i probably don't i think that's correct um one other
note i'll make is that uh if you go on ledger live unless you go into development mode every
single app and every single version of that app that is on ledger live has been reviewed by ledger
they've said that this app is not going to export your key anywhere however if you go and install
a dev app like i don't know as an example um i know i know a lot of us have the desmos app
installed that's that's a that's a dev app they could have exported the private key doing that
because we basically side loaded it right didn't didn't they ask for the private key when they first
launched remember that they're like then they're desmos wallet or something like that why'd you
to input the yeah they why didn't they remember that yeah yeah i forgot about the year drop what a
great coincidence shove your shove your key in here even if you got a ledger just you can export it
they were the ones walking around in lisbon with uh with hoodies that said end human slavery
nice unironically they were like they were like that is our marketing slogan lads let's print a
hundred hoodies this this does not make us look like we literally have never stepped foot in the
real world before oh my goodness sorry you were saying schultz no that's basically it like there's
a lot of different vectors here and if you are using the basic two apps of like madmask and
like the bitcoin app then you're you're safe what there are a couple answers i would like
like and and todd in the chat has a couple good questions he said uh the question i would like
to have answered is that is this a new command available under normal operation or only in
management install mode and i think that's kind of the point that i was coming to in like there's
different sections like when you're starting it up it's in a different mode right versus like normal
mode uh what he's saying normal operation that that's kind of what it's getting as well as like if
it's in the very beginning that's whenever it's available and that's it fine under an operation
that kind of bothers me and another question is like if it requires a separate app like does it
require a separate app to export it or when you're on ledger live do you just click you know export
my private key here whatever once i've subscribed basically i just need more information to make a
full full judgment yeah but right now i'm not too concerned like i have ledger stacks preordered
and i'm not kind of cancel it there's just i'm honestly for what we do there's not others that
are as large in terms of like cli interfacing another i mean i know there's a lot of examples
we've been talking about the uh what's the one we were just talking about with um uh keystone
keystone thank you yeah yeah and i saw uh sonny put a pretty large list out for it because he was
talking about how many different both hardware wallets and like software um wallets he has like
in in chrome or something like that he has like 10 hardware wallets and there's a lot of options out
there but like just the integration at the kepler side or whatever you know chrome extension there
is and then all of a sudden and also from a validator perspective some of the tools that we use
are only cli and so you just can't assume that there's going to be qr code support on every
single you know thing that you're running right and a lot of that's the ledger is the leader in
those types of things unfortunately fortunately or unfortunately i guess however you want to think
about it but it's there's not a lot of options for some i guess it's all just risk management
after a point though isn't it like you can split them up you can put them you know have only the
cosmos app on the cosmos ones and have different key systems and you end up with 10 different ledgers
for different use cases and you know at the end of the day if you install the wrong app on them
you're still you're still fucked uh if you're walking around with it in your back pocket and
somebody hits you over the head with a hammer you're still fucked um so it's all about like
layered security in terms of like physical cyber hardware software like it's all those different
things um and eventually it's just about risk i suppose isn't there after a point uh yeah it's
it's a it's right and like what really is a vector here um associated that so i mean there's the
fucking twitter is going nuts though yeah i i didn't well well we're talking about just out of
curiosity just like ledger and i was like holy shit okay yeah homo simpson backing into the
hedge i was like okay everybody's angrier than i am i'm just gonna back away from this one actually
i'm yeah we'll see what happens i i do agree what you said i think what you said initially was like
this came out and i don't think they were ready at all like even that ce or c or cto or posted
that that note and read it like that note was so dismissive and it was just like i don't think they
realized like what a fucking shit storm was brewing and then like somebody just do like yeah
it's no fucking big deal and like like read the room dude no one no one to shut the fuck up and
wait for somebody who knows how to handle angry mobs to get involved yeah and they haven't really
answered any questions they keep putting on like the same thread of like how it works and that same
thread doesn't really answer anything and people are like so is this a yes or a no and then they
just don't respond yeah right exactly yeah you're like well you you could solve this like like i
feel like you're just missing like like eight words and and those eight words would solve it right like
it yeah yeah i agree it's pretty crazy hey so anyway ledger's not going anywhere unfortunately
right now they're just not going anywhere uh i mean somewhere that's not going anywhere
oh there's no we've always thought about the secret chainhold that would have been good segue
where are you talking about i would we're past my i'm so tired i literally can't even share the
no because because ten weeks baby it's never any party um getopia launched we yes i did today oh
i'm so excited about good yeah that's fucking rug we got fucking rugged out of those tests that so
quickly um and then we're inactive and it was just a fucking pain in the earth so we we failed but
you should check if you have any uh rewards in your test net wallet really yes you should
and delegate them to me because i'm falling out of the set already because i'm not running an
auto compounder every eight seconds is get hope you're gonna make it though i hope so i think that's
the hot take the rest of these chains are fine yeah i don't know i think i like it i think it's too
early i don't think of course you're the stable get hope you're the stable would make it get
hope here with his own token with no uh exogenous security is ngmi hot take they go i don't know
is it does it need that conceptually though i think it's a really cool idea i think that
i think that one of the things cryptic can do really well is is feeding into the open source
ecosystem um and i i don't know i like i really just need it as a tool i agree with you like if
you if you buy as the whole like dowels do everything dowel ship code dowels do this like
ibsc message to upload some code to a giri pope yeah 100 hot take before the rug hot take before
the rug would it be so bad if app chains just used usdc coin as their base token instead of
having their own coin would that be so bad and then you know create a product that works so that
you can get revenue from usdc piped back into like some some team coffers or something like that
i mean why have your own token why not just use a stable coin just use the good old-fashioned
petro dollar the galt standard