1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,080
was Split B, he was in here, and then 5.3 was obviously the reversal show. And then now today.

2
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:06,800
What a wanker.

3
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:16,000
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on Cosmos from independent validated teams.

4
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:25,120
Hello, welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the Cosmos from independent validated teams.

5
00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:32,320
And we're back from the alternate dimension with your regularly scheduled hosting panel,

6
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:39,760
except for our Australian contingent whose absence has been noted, registered with their line manager,

7
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:48,240
and in their 360 review, they will not be getting a positive response. They're going to get a short

8
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:55,760
drift from their colleagues, three weeks nonattendance, it's a poor show. I don't know how he's going to

9
00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:03,200
possibly meet his KPIs with that love attendance. I mean, you got to do a lot of yourping to make

10
00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,680
up for that kind of showing with your manager because they've got targets to meet. We've all got,

11
00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,360
it's, you know, sort of just coming down from the top, isn't it?

12
00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,400
It's really the bear hitting in, right? This is like, this is the bear right here when

13
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,280
Null isn't shopped at GON, that's three weeks in a row, that's some sort of sign.

14
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:24,160
That's a sign that things have gone quite bad. So there's probably quite, there's probably a

15
00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:32,960
funny thing if you look back in the Game of Nodes, like Canon, I think it's weighty and

16
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:39,920
significant enough now at this point that we can call it a Canon. Anything with enough

17
00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:46,400
shit in it is Canon, isn't it? But I'm fine the first episode where we say something like,

18
00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,480
whoa, the bear's been going on a little while now.

19
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,320
CBT- It's like episode four.

20
00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:56,640
CBT- Yeah. From that episode, the delta from that episode to now, I'm curious. I'm curious how long,

21
00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:04,800
you know, the like, what's the meme I'm thinking of where you think it's super bad and then

22
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,440
it's actually way worse. CBT- I was just thinking about that recently.

23
00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:14,960
Like I remember like six months ago, everything was six times the price it was right now. And I

24
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:20,560
was like, man, things are getting pretty tough out there. And yet for some reason, it feels

25
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,840
less bearish to me right now than it does then, even though prices are obviously far below.

26
00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:35,680
CBT- Yes, weird, isn't it? I remember $5 Juneau, I was being like, it's fucking rough. It's rough times.

27
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:41,920
There we go. I'm not sure. I think we've got a new viewer this week, some chap called Ben Davis,

28
00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:47,680
never heard of him before, that says in the comments, Prop1June to slash King Nodes is coming.

29
00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,640
Obviously, BigFans are social slashing here on the show and in the comments.

30
00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:57,360
CBT- We are BigFans social slashing. CBT- Love the social slashing. Can't get enough of it.

31
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:03,440
CBT- Whichever way the wind blows, baby. CBT- Social slashing is the one thing that's

32
00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:10,400
going to see us through this bear and into successful mass adoption of delegated proof

33
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:18,640
of stake. But yeah, I mean, everything, everything is kind of, it's so redundant now to look at price

34
00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:29,200
like we're just, I mean, as a, we've, I've gone back to doing some corporate work recently because

35
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:36,480
it's, it's like a welcome distraction from, I mean, also, you know, better than McDonald's. But

36
00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,960
it's also kind of like weird being back in like, because the rest of the economy has got its own

37
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:49,280
problems, cost of living crisis, inflation, all this stuff. But if you're like a large,

38
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,920
a large organization like institution type organization, they're just, they're just partnering

39
00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:59,040
on like nothing, nothing's happening. It's super weird. It's super weird because we have this totally

40
00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:04,640
insane whatever this is. And then people are just like, yeah, so yeah, no, so this is like,

41
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,280
then planning for next quarter and blah, blah, blah, and you're just like,

42
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,600
CBT- You're like, but the world's on fire. Don't you see the flames outside?

43
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,240
DG- It's more just like, they're just like, oh, well, you know, this is a relatively short-term

44
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,320
perspective. But you know, we're looking for about four months here and you're like four months,

45
00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,840
four months. I don't even know if I'm not going to be in the poor house in four months.

46
00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:31,040
CBT- I don't see. You think that's short-term? DG- Yeah, you're like, like,

47
00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,880
these throughout the neck, first time, you're like four months. For some reason, that's the

48
00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,120
beam of picture. I know it completely breaks the format of the meme, but just like four months.

49
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:44,880
CBT- I have this cryptocurrency like, you know, price gauge above. I have a magic mirror,

50
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,960
which you see me looking up, that's reason why, but I have a magic mirror, like,

51
00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,640
which is an open source tool. It's just a separate monitor. It runs off a pie and it has a bunch

52
00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,360
of shit on it, like a bunch of shit. And one of those is cryptocurrency prices. So I'm constantly

53
00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,840
looking up at it, which is not a great thing to have above your eyesight. But I only track our

54
00:05:01,840 --> 00:05:07,360
day and week, because if I put like month or year, I would probably run through a Blake glass window.

55
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:13,360
DG- So it's good to see like, you know, at most down 22% for the week. Doesn't sound that bad.

56
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:19,440
It's only 22%. For the year, it's probably 24, right? That's no big deal.

57
00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:24,640
CBT- I mean, I'm pretty sure I remember the first time you mentioned that monitor and

58
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,960
mentioned that you were going to turn it off. DG- And here I am. Actually, I added more,

59
00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,440
I added more, which was even smarter. CBT- I reckon that was actually like August

60
00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,600
last year that you were like, this is getting too stressful. DG- Yeah, exactly. Here I am. Yep.

61
00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:44,240
DG- Yeah, whenever we're obviously a small company, we don't have like an in-house finance team,

62
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:50,320
but we have like people we pay for that. And they cannot get their head around how we

63
00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:56,720
financially plan like as a business. Because like we sort of say, oh, we're going to move off of

64
00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:02,240
primarily using contractors, bring some more stuff in-house. Like this would have been just

65
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:08,800
before FTX. We literally put our job ads, right? And we do like quarterly check-ins, right? With

66
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:15,840
the people we use to finance stuff. And between one check-in to the next, you have this situation

67
00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:18,800
where you're like, yeah, I think we're going to put out some job ads in the next month or something.

68
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,840
The next one, they're like, right, okay, so you've got staff now, presumably you managed to hire,

69
00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:28,480
okay, great. So what we're going to do is talk and you're like, oh, okay, so about that.

70
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:36,640
Everything went to shit. Everything's down. We're basically bust. We have a big tax bill. We definitely

71
00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:43,440
can't. Without this stuff, without line goes up, there's no staff. And they're like, so you didn't

72
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:48,960
hire anybody. And you're like, no. And they're like, okay, so what about diversifying? And you're

73
00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:56,320
like, there's no money to diversify. Diversify zero. Yeah, exactly. They're like, well,

74
00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:01,920
we have some other ideas of like, it's quite spotty, the income in the sector you're in.

75
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:07,360
So there's other ways of getting kind of long-term strategic business. And I'm like, no,

76
00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,880
no, no, I think you don't understand. There's no income coming in.

77
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,240
Like listen to the words that are coming out of my mouth. We have nothing.

78
00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:22,480
Last time we checked in, it was all cricket and coconuts. We were going to the moon. Now,

79
00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:30,240
this is not so good. But it is funny as well. Because you're just like, again,

80
00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:36,880
you're reminded that in a lot of small businesses, that kind of budgeting, reporting, stuff like that,

81
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:42,720
just do it every quarter. Like why would you need to need them? What could change that radically

82
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:49,040
in three months? For a pizza restaurant, right? These sorts of small businesses that these people

83
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:54,000
normally have about, they're just like, yeah, what could change that much in four months?

84
00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:00,160
So you're just like everything. There was a live stream today. I don't know if you saw it,

85
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:07,120
she'll see, but in Washington for like all the crypto, they're like the head of Kraken was there.

86
00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:12,640
And even we know some folks from Republic Crypto, that CEO was there and they were talking.

87
00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,960
There's a bunch of groups. And one, I forget who it said it was, I think it was from Illinois.

88
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:22,560
And I think somewhere in the conversation, it came up that the way that crypto has the ability to

89
00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:29,280
lower barriers of entry and to help with inequality. There's a very US focused conversation,

90
00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,640
right? They're just talking about an inequality perspective, like an income inequality,

91
00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:38,640
that opportunities there. Anyway, I don't know how crypto solves that issue. It's not,

92
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:45,200
I don't know, whatever. Anyway, the conversation there was that over the last five years,

93
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:51,440
the S&P is up like 70 or 40 something percent, 40 or 50% over the last five years, the S&P 500

94
00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:57,920
here in the US. And then, but cryptocurrency is down 46%. It's negative 46%. So the conversation

95
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,320
was around the idea that, that, oh, you know, this is how is this inequality? Because whatever,

96
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:07,760
whatever, which, which is a nice little stat to pick, right? Pick five years out from 2017 to 2020,

97
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,760
2020 to 2023, whatever it is, and, and make that decision. But they didn't talk about the crypto

98
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:18,560
that went up 850,000%. And then, and then fall 40%. So yeah, if you held for exactly five years,

99
00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:22,640
you're in there. But, but it was just kind of funny the way that the structure is.

100
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,400
But it's that thing, isn't it? Like for any normal,

101
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,560
Five years, like, come on, for any normal investment, if you were holding it for any

102
00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:33,360
less than five years, you'd be a complete fuss. Yeah, it's not fucking ETF. Well, no, a lot of

103
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,360
people, no, I don't agree with that. Because I mean, a lot of people take ETFs and, and take,

104
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,800
like large bundles and just throw money at it and just leave it, right? And which is,

105
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,240
which is the right investment strategy, honestly, in most cases, because you're gonna mostly,

106
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,440
like that is the way that that is my investment strategy. It's like crypto.

107
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,040
But yeah, even, even in crypto, like, I think the ability to just take a bunch of shit and just

108
00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:59,200
dump it in there for a long period of time. Maybe that works. I don't know if that works here, but

109
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,080
in the regular market to say, Hey, by, by an average, you know, eight, the market grows by 8%.

110
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:09,920
So therefore, I get 8% returns over not maybe a year, but over 30 years. Yeah, maybe like,

111
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:15,920
I mean, I guess the one thing that is the same from the regular markets to the crypto space is

112
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,640
that the, I can't believe we've, we've, we've become given us the price chat, but we have

113
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,800
is that the, the price rule positively correlated with Bitcoin on this. So there is a more

114
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,800
intelligent conversation than last week, let's be honest. Yeah, exactly. But it,

115
00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:33,520
there is an element where they're all positively correlated. So

116
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,600
like the, if you get like an all world ETF, and then you get like a specifically like

117
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,240
a NASDAQ ETF, right? The NASDAQ ETF is super risky compared to the all world.

118
00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:49,760
Sure. But the, but if the all world tracks positive, like 99% of the time, you're going to see the

119
00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,480
NASDAQ one track positive as well, because like the world economy is inherently like

120
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,720
pretty strong. I mean, and also, yeah, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's growing.

121
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,760
Right. To the, yeah, exactly. It's growing or it's contracting.

122
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,440
So the more you hold, the safer it is, right? I think that's pretty safe.

123
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,360
Yeah. And it can vary. It can vary from country to country. It can vary from stock exchange or

124
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,680
index to index. You know, these things, you could have the whole, the all world ETF growing and

125
00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:17,680
the NASDAQ contracting, that's entirely possible because of local conditions, but it's kind of

126
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:22,960
unlikely. But the thing that's like obviously completely different is that, that generally

127
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:31,120
speaking, there is a sustainable income model or business behind the companies and ETF, whereas

128
00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:37,200
your average grab bag of shitcoins or altcoins. Right. I mean, yeah, it was just a really unfair

129
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:42,000
comparison to say something has been around for, I mean, let's be realistic, something that's been

130
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:47,280
around in some sort of, and he was picking top five, I mean, he didn't even list what coins was

131
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,280
in there, but it was like five coins that were, I assume it's like Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever,

132
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,280
else, right? And you probably throw some meme coins in there or some shit. But to say that,

133
00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:00,400
that represents possibility, and it's only five, it's that industry is what like less than five,

134
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,560
five years old, maybe seven, eight, and to compare it against, against something else that's been

135
00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:09,120
around a basket of companies that have been around for 50, 60 years is a little bit ridiculous.

136
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:14,160
But it was funny just because it was funny like, yeah, you lost minus 46% over five years. I'm

137
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,760
like, dude, I've never held any of these folding this for five years. Yeah. He imagined like,

138
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,400
like most trades that last five years, right? Yeah. Most of these, yeah. Right. The ones we deal

139
00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:29,040
with are, they're probably barely three years old, right? Two years old, three years old.

140
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,360
Three years would be the hours. Osmosis was, Osmosis was what, October 20?

141
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:40,800
21? 21? Wow. I sent two sounds about it. It's crazy to come up with the exact day.

142
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:50,320
I got into validation in Cosmos just after it launched. And I did, I also had all my fucking

143
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:58,240
Juno, I don't know how Juno exists, had all my Atom on in a custodial wallet and cracker. And

144
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:03,600
when the snapshot was taken for Osmos, I missed the insane LP, because you know,

145
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:09,200
it was like an insane LP party in the early days where you were just like, I've just made $10,000

146
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:15,200
from $10 of that. In 45 minutes, right? Like just whatever the hell it is.

147
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:20,400
Yeah. That would have been a night. Like at the time, I was doing a quite stressful contract.

148
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,240
So I don't know where I would have had the energy to work that out and do it,

149
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,720
but it would have made a nice holiday. I think that was also before that. I feel like that might

150
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:36,720
have been also before the full crypto assets handbook came out. So the weird status of LP

151
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,680
is would have just been complete, do whatever you feel, which means probably pay a bit of capital

152
00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:47,680
gains tax and then pocket like a huge profit. And then just put it on your self-assessment taxes as

153
00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:55,120
did some internet nerd shit made 10 grand, spent it on a holiday. Thanks, lads. That's basically

154
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,120
how taxes work, isn't it? You just write it long form like a narrative description.

155
00:13:59,120 --> 00:13:59,760
That's right. Yeah.

156
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:07,520
Well, the play for that now is generally I kind of avoid LP now because this last tax season,

157
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:16,160
I got hammered by the tax man. And I think the play now is using Quesar for LP because then you

158
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,840
just shove in. Is that how you pronounce it?

159
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:21,200
Quasar.

160
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,080
Okay. All right. I wasn't sure.

161
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:29,360
I'm not sure either. But I think the play now is just sticking in there, sticking in the contract

162
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,880
and then you'll just pull your stuff out later because I don't even think you get any LP tokens

163
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,040
or whatever. And so you don't get any of those epochs. You don't get any of that,

164
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,480
those income hits that I got.

165
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,200
There's no transactions, right? Until you yank it.

166
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:44,640
Yeah, exactly.

167
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,320
Right. Yeah. That's cool. It's much cleaner. I'm excited about it.

168
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,600
You want it to quietly de-gen accumulate. That's right.

169
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:52,560
That's right. Exactly.

170
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,240
I don't want to personally hold anything. I think that's number one goal.

171
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:02,800
I mean, just in general, the business, yes, me, no.

172
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:03,600
Yeah.

173
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,480
Such a bad personal tax structure in crypto.

174
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,480
But it was so just in the US.

175
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,880
Well, there wasn't, I mean, all of it is just,

176
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,800
it's just, even when there are some bits that totally make sense, there are some bits that

177
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:22,000
are totally bad shit. The fact that you can't, the fact that you can

178
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:29,360
bankrupt yourself so easily with a taxable event that is worth zero is like a massive

179
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,360
hole in the system. And you can see, and the thing is at the end of the day,

180
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:41,360
the tax man doesn't benefit from bankrupting you as a person. And the tax man does benefit

181
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:47,360
in a very limited and quick sense in bankrupting you as a business, but they don't want to bankrupt

182
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:52,400
you as a business. Certainly not a small business because they want to continue to get tax revenue

183
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:58,400
from you. So that's how you can tell that, at least in the UK, that the way they're handled

184
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:04,960
as assets and the way staking is handled as a taxable event is just completely out of whack.

185
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:11,040
Yeah, I agree. And I think that that follows through into a lot of aspects of crypto that

186
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:16,480
people haven't really dealt deep into enough yet. My kind of knee-joker reaction to that would be

187
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,840
gaming in crypto. Right now, it's kind of like a lot of podcasts are talking about how it is,

188
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,120
like that's going to be the next wave of users. And that might well be true.

189
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:31,600
But if you have all your items in crypto, so therefore all items have a worth, that means if

190
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,240
you're running around a world of Warcraft and you kill a boar and you get a Grey Sword and that

191
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:42,960
ends up being like 0.001 cents, listen, that's a taxable event. That's a transaction. You pay

192
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,600
tax on that Grey Sword. Do you want to pay tax on that Grey Sword? I don't think you do. Do you

193
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:52,880
want to have to deal with the tax ramifications of it? I really don't think you do. Anyway.

194
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:58,480
But there's an interesting case study with this, isn't there, with Eve Online,

195
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,040
because they worked out that they had a functioning economy and they were like,

196
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:08,080
hey, do we actually make this into a functioning economy? Because we know people are literally

197
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:15,040
trading the money, OTC, out in the real world. But they were like the close that we get to being

198
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:22,400
a security. In some ways, bad for us. In some ways, who gives a shit? We can monetize it.

199
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:29,040
But also, yeah, our users are going to hit a whole world of strange stuff as soon as they can

200
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:35,680
actually earn money in this digital space. Maybe some users want to do that. Some users want to

201
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:43,840
play Eve Online, make money from trucking Rock or space truck in Rock or 24 seven. That's what

202
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:49,520
they want to do, like Axie Infinity or something, but a bit more sci-fi. Hold on. Since you brought

203
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:54,800
up Eve, I need to interject here a little bit. Did you hear the most recent heist with Eve?

204
00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:01,440
With the, someone got voted the president of one of the biggest things, corporations? No.

205
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:06,160
Okay, it doesn't look like you guys look confused. Okay, this is awesome. So there's an intricacy

206
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,400
with Eve Online, with our corporations. The corporation's like a guild. It's their DAO, right?

207
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,040
And what is it? I think it's...

208
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:21,760
But for listeners, a DAO is just a bunch of nerds on the internet. So a guild is a corporation,

209
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,320
is a DAO. Got you. Yeah. Right. Continue.

210
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,680
Or a sub-DAO, really, if you think about it, because the first DAO is Eve Online,

211
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:35,680
and then the corporation is the sub-DAO. But so here's how this heist happens. So for context,

212
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:41,200
Eve has a lot of history of social engineering and people spending multiple years of their lives

213
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:46,640
building a grudge against a corporation and then spending all their time getting into the corporation

214
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,120
and then killing it, basically. Then they'll sell the stuff off. So the most recent heists

215
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:57,840
happened fairly recently. What happened? So two guys, they found a corporation that most

216
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,560
of the members were inactive. However, they had an insane amount of money on them. And so they

217
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:11,520
were kind of active, whatever. But in corporations, if the way voting works on it is if a share votes...

218
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,880
So a vote goes through regardless of what portion of the share votes it has to do with

219
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:22,800
what shares voted. So on June, there's, let's say, a million staked. If 10 people vote,

220
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:28,960
10 shares vote, then the thing won't go through. It didn't hit the quorum. There's no quorum on

221
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:35,760
even like corporations. So these guys, they joined the guild, there's two people. So each one by one

222
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,800
share of the corporation, they put up a prop to make one of the guys the president and they don't

223
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,960
tell anybody that the prop just went up. They just kind of like loosely let it in there. They both

224
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:50,960
vote yes. He gets made the president and takes all of their ships and stuff and sells it for like

225
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:57,280
$30,000 online. Amazing. So like, amazing. Yeah. And then people log on and were like,

226
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:03,120
what the hell is happening? That's insane. I heard that like a few years ago, I heard one about

227
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:08,000
there was some guy that had basically dismantled, gradually dismantled one of the biggest guilds

228
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:15,680
from the inside. He didn't like fly any ships or whatever on EVE. He just logged on and essentially

229
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:21,920
acted as a diplomat in the game, just using the chat and stuff. He never actually played the game

230
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:28,080
in the way that, I don't know how you played EVE online if you've ever played it, but

231
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:33,360
how you normally think of playing the game. And he's like, yeah, I think it was like a

232
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:38,320
heist or like a really successful political dismantling of a rival faction or something like

233
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:44,400
that. And it turned out he was like a double agent or something. It was some super complex,

234
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:50,640
like quite serious level of intrigue. And people were like, whoa, what a crazy guy, what a legend.

235
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,480
And then he just disappeared from the game and stopped posting. People were like,

236
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,560
oh, that's weird. I wonder where that guy went who caused all of that shit show.

237
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,000
And it turned out he was an actual American diplomat and he had been killed in the Benghazi

238
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:13,840
siege. And literally, I don't remember if he was specifically a diplomat or an aide or one of

239
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:20,800
those nebulous jobs that's definitely not CIA, but definitely CIA. Like militaries attach a

240
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,680
second class or something and you're like fucking CIA officer. That's the station CIA chief. That's

241
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:33,440
the real big balls, isn't it? But yeah, so like a busy day at the office doing fucking

242
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,600
diplomatic stuff and they get home and wants to basically the DGEN version of diplomacy.

243
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,640
They're like, oh, this serious diplomacy. What I really want to do is just like leisure diplomacy.

244
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:49,680
Yeah, I want aggressive regime change with no clear...

245
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,000
I want DOWs at work and DOWs at home.

246
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,000
Like aggressive regime change with no end in sight for owning my economic benefit.

247
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,280
DOWs all the way down.

248
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:08,320
Exactly. The kind of regime change that Halliburton would be like, that's a bit exploitative, man.

249
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,640
That's actually a bit much, man. It's very transparent what you've done here.

250
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:20,240
You've just done this for all your benefits. Have I? Thanks, Halliburton.

251
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,960
We never know. That's so funny.

252
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,760
So, I mean, so even online is really, really interesting, although I sadly don't know enough

253
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,080
about it to keep up an entire podcast on the subject of Eve online.

254
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,360
Me either. But I like that they can gain tax or take a tax consequence for earning a sword or

255
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:41,520
something. That makes me laugh. That would be insane.

256
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,440
It's true, though. Like, can you imagine how bad that would be? You get items like every

257
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:51,760
minute when you're playing a video game. So you're talking like a taxable event every minute?

258
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,320
No, God, no. Your average user is not going to be that space trucker who's like, yes,

259
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:02,560
I can finally earn money for carrying iron ore from the outer rim over a three-week period to

260
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:08,800
smelt down. The average user is like, I want to log on, shoot some lasers. They want to be like,

261
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:14,400
I want to log on, shoot some lasers, then go buy some, and they said laser fuel batteries.

262
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,680
I think we need a new rule of anytime that the word tax comes up, we have to take a drink.

263
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:26,000
Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't that. I don't that will. Oh, yeah. I'd be, I'd be premessed up by

264
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,320
the end of the podcast. Well, I have one more statement on the thing, though. Right. Okay.

265
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,160
So if you look at a path of exile, if you look at the path of exile, like items drop a letter,

266
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,080
right? Hundreds of items just splash across the screen. And the way you deal with that

267
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,800
is you have filters for items you can see, right? So like only a certain quality will be allowed to

268
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,680
see through. If you're running a filter, right, that means you're never actually really seeing it.

269
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,400
Therefore, would it still be a taxable event for those items to then have been dropped?

270
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,280
But you're not earning off those, are you? Why am I asking these questions?

271
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:56,320
It's true. You're not taking.

272
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,400
Suck me in. So just because you see them, that's I mean, you're, you're,

273
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,720
are you not receiving value for those? Are you? I guess you are.

274
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,480
No, you're not receiving value. You'd have to pick them up. But in theory, they've then been

275
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:12,480
generated, right? So the idea is you can pick them up. You can group them or sell them individually.

276
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,440
Yeah. On some sort of marketplace and sell those for something that could eventually

277
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,040
turn into USD or no. Not in that game. No, I'm talking hypothetically.

278
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,440
Oh, okay. If hypothetically, like you could filter out and not see the item,

279
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,600
do you still have to pay for it? It's kind of like if a tree falls in the forest and no one

280
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,400
is there to hear it, does it still make noise? So it's almost like it's, it's the airdrop question,

281
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:40,880
right? Because you're receiving a token without any sort of interaction. And if that has value,

282
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,360
then are you on the hook for that, even though you didn't request it?

283
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:50,160
Ah, I think, I think that's actually a pretty good analogy. Like if you don't even know it's there,

284
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,600
then like how, like how can you pay for it? Because how are you supposed to report it?

285
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,960
Yeah, that's like, like, some, like somebody sent you tokens in your wallet, but I'm not paying,

286
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,320
like, why would I pay tax on that since well, number one, I've never received anything in my

287
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:07,600
wallet of value. But away from that's actually, I guess all the airdrops I've actually requested

288
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,760
that have had value ones that have been, I don't remember like, was that originally,

289
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,360
there's a couple of things, Netto? Oh, fucking Netto.

290
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:23,200
Had value. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is, it's already assigned to you, you're just providing

291
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:34,320
a Merkle proof that you are the bearer of the key that essentially is, so the Merkle tree,

292
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:39,040
the Merkle proof is used because the size of the state would be too big if it was just a

293
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:45,920
hash map. So instead, it's a, what is it, a Merkle tree? It's like a binary tree of some kind,

294
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,400
isn't it? In this case, it's not a binary tree, is it? If it's a Merkle tree,

295
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,240
this is this is why I need to go back and do fucking undergrad, computer science, clearly,

296
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:03,280
or do it for the first time. But the point is that technically in storage, this is what I

297
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,200
would be saying to the tax man, by the way, technically in storage, it was always there.

298
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:15,200
It just required you to use your public key to say, I am actually the bearer of,

299
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,080
I am, this is the public key of the account that you have in your hashed tree,

300
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:28,080
which you have not given, you have not assigned formally that amount yet, but it is already mine.

301
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:35,680
Fucking hell. At the point that it's created, which is the instantiation contract, it is yours.

302
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,920
It's just that it is actually, it is unassigned from you and clawed back.

303
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:48,720
If you do not say, I am the bearer of this public key. So I would say it's more of a

304
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,400
semantic. So let's take it out of computer science back into humanities, where I'm nice

305
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,720
and warm and fuzzy and say that it's a problem of semantics. The problem is that people talk about

306
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:03,840
claiming is not really a claim. You are instead supplying a proof of identity.

307
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:12,560
And then the thing that is already yours won't be pulled back at the end of the period.

308
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,000
That's not exactly true.

309
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,880
It's not in the wallet though. You are taking an action to claim.

310
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,600
It is yours, but you are yours. Netta wasn't actually, Netta wasn't dropped like that. You

311
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,560
had actually claimed Netta. I remember in the UI. There was a specific action that the user had

312
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:36,720
to take to claim something that even though it was deemed for you, you didn't actually own.

313
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,720
Because you actually had to take an action. So that could be impactful.

314
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:47,280
It's a very subtle line. Because the difference is really, bearing in mind,

315
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:55,200
Netta is just a smart contract. So when it comes down to it, the account balances in Netta

316
00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:02,160
are a hash map. The account balances in the Merkle tree are a hash map that's hashed.

317
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,160
Essentially, let's ignore the fact that there's a tree data structure and I think

318
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:12,320
is some kind of a, you know, one of those depth, there's trees that have a fixed depth.

319
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,560
I think it was one of those. Whatever, not important. The point is, it is essentially a

320
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:25,200
hashed hash map. The fact that it is one data storage data structure and not the other,

321
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,480
does not change that those tokens were already yours. It just changed that the problem is actually

322
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:36,400
about control. The problem is that somebody can say, I haven't seen anybody use those tokens.

323
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,960
The fact that it's called claim, you could actually use any mechanism to say that,

324
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:48,160
you could say, oh, if they transfer them, if they spend any of them, whatever. The only reason that

325
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:54,720
there is this claim construct is because storage is ludicrously expensive and you have to do something

326
00:28:54,720 --> 00:29:00,560
to hash it. That means that you then have to do this action to prove who you are. Otherwise,

327
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,360
you would just literally instantiate the hash map from the get-go and have everybody's stuff listed.

328
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,200
The other reason is obviously to claw back funds. That's the other reason to do it.

329
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,080
For instance, which not all airdrops even actually do have

330
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,240
a callback function either. But the user's actually taken action in this situation.

331
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:27,600
Say I buy a lottery ticket, right? So, I buy a lottery ticket and I win $1,000. If I never

332
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:33,920
turn it in, that money is deemed to me. It's the lottery system knows that there's a certain

333
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:39,440
number of tickets. Those coins are out. Those dollars are out there. I hold something that

334
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,040
It can be redeemed for that.

335
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:42,720
If I don't turn it in, I'm not taxed for it.

336
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,040
Right? So, it's the same thing.

337
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,960
Like, I understand that you're saying in terms of the contract there,

338
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,600
but there's no understanding of who owns,

339
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,480
there's no understanding of who actually has that key.

340
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,680
There's no understanding of the wallet address.

341
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,080
It's the same thing, right?

342
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,400
Like, it's in a wallet that you actually have to claim to actually do something with.

343
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,920
And so, the fact that it's not in my wallet,

344
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,600
if it's not in my wallet, I'm not,

345
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,280
it's not a wallet address.

346
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:09,800
That's the thing.

347
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,520
But they don't know who the wallet is, right?

348
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,680
Until I claim it, that's really when...

349
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,360
It's way for your private key, yeah.

350
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:16,360
Well, this is what I mean.

351
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,480
Like, what's the difference between that and the hash map

352
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,200
that's at the root of the Juno blockchain that says,

353
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,920
X Juno, this wallet?

354
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:23,880
It's exactly the same.

355
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,880
Like, these are just data structures.

356
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:26,680
Right.

357
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,480
Which, okay, if you are disputing a very large tax bill

358
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,840
in whatever your local tax authority is in court, something like that,

359
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,600
I do not recommend taking this course of argument,

360
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,080
this line of argument.

361
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,720
Strongly, I am not a lawyer.

362
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:43,560
Which, mine are yours.

363
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:44,880
I'm not a accountant.

364
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,000
I mean, either actually could lad you in trouble.

365
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,400
I like my taxes.

366
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,080
It's just, yeah.

367
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,640
I mean...

368
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:57,640
So what, so...

369
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:58,920
I mean, if I understand it.

370
00:30:58,920 --> 00:30:59,680
I still bear tape, right?

371
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,080
From a state perspective, from a pure state perspective,

372
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,960
we are basically dealing with two hash maps and there is no difference.

373
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:10,320
But I do recognise that making that argument might mean that you go to prison, right?

374
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,320
So what you're saying is...

375
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:13,320
It's still a stupid cover.

376
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,160
It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

377
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,000
Yeah, clever.

378
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,000
Turnabout.

379
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,080
You never know which it is, right?

380
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:24,720
You never know.

381
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:25,760
So it's kind of like...

382
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,560
It's a fine line between going to prison and not going to prison.

383
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:34,280
It's just that turnabout, that little turn of the turnkey.

384
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:39,600
So I don't know if where other places have it, but I know in at least Oregon, there's

385
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:45,360
this idea of unclaimed property where, let's say you work somewhere and you leave early

386
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,520
and they don't send out the check or you don't claim the check.

387
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,640
They then give it to the government and the government holds it for you in escrow.

388
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,720
Or kind of like lost and found, really.

389
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,520
And then you kind of put in for it.

390
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,120
So that's already yours, right?

391
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,840
Would it not be kind of the same idea for aircross?

392
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,240
That's another good analogy.

393
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,320
Yeah, that's another good analogy.

394
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:11,720
It's like if you're bequeathed some dollars from a long lost aunt and it comes down to

395
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,800
you, it's in your name, but you're not there and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

396
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:15,800
That's the same type of thing.

397
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:16,800
Yeah, yeah.

398
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:24,720
Well, let's say somebody says, hey, every bank account with this bank, we're going to

399
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,320
give them all $5 or something like that.

400
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,480
And then you get given $10 because you have two bank accounts with that bank.

401
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,600
So you consolidate those two $5 into one of your bank accounts where you now have $10.

402
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,200
And then the bank notices and they're like, well, hang on, hang on, dude.

403
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,800
We said it was only $5 for each person.

404
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,840
And you go, well, no, it's actually $5 for each bank account you see.

405
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,720
So you gave me $10 and that's your mistake.

406
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,040
And now it's my property.

407
00:32:54,040 --> 00:33:00,160
So it's one of those small things that could happen.

408
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:07,760
But in this country, the house thing is actually a good analogy because in the UK, from my

409
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,720
understanding, very, very, very hard if you can't track down the freeholder of a property

410
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:18,920
to do anything with it, like a house that's totally liveable, that's useful.

411
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,680
If it's literally like, yeah, we think the person is still alive and we can't fucking

412
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,280
find who owns this house.

413
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:29,840
Property law is pretty robust in favor of the owner and you literally something will just

414
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:30,840
go completely derelict.

415
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,840
And it would be like, well, we actually can't find the person.

416
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,240
I'm saying the reason I know this is because it's literally happened on the street next

417
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,320
to me where there's just a house and literally nobody has fucking clue who owns it.

418
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,520
And there's nothing anybody, the council, and actually the roof fall again.

419
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:46,520
Who's going to fix this?

420
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,720
It's like, well, fucking the freeholder, right?

421
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:54,280
And everybody's like, well, this house isn't worth nothing.

422
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:55,840
It's worth something.

423
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,320
Surely somebody is going to play and literally the council have tried to track down who owns

424
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:00,320
it.

425
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,320
Nobody fucking knows.

426
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,400
They know the name of the person because it's in the land registry.

427
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,720
They can't find the person, but they're also not dead.

428
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:07,720
That's the weird thing, right?

429
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,520
They looked, you know, burst registers and deaths.

430
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:10,520
They're not dead.

431
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:11,960
Where the fuck are they?

432
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,560
They're not here.

433
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:15,560
So all fun and games.

434
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,320
And where there's ties into crypto is crypto is kind of treat like an asset here rather

435
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:20,680
than money.

436
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:28,800
So yeah, I mean, if somebody says, hey, here's an asset, do you have that same?

437
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,120
Well, obviously you don't because, you know, it's a bunch of nerds on the internet who

438
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,880
ultimately control what you own that thing or not.

439
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,400
But in theory, right?

440
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,920
If it's an asset with the same safeguards as property law, then that's interesting.

441
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:49,400
Well, so let's take one step back a little bit and ask more kind of nebulous tax questions

442
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,280
that might not know the answer to.

443
00:34:52,280 --> 00:35:01,560
So by the way, before we continue, I did some Googling and the incident I was trying to

444
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,320
reference about Eve online was the vile rat incident.

445
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,360
The vile link in the show notes.

446
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,800
We'll put a link in the show notes because it really is quite complex, but it's a good

447
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,520
story and it's wide on school.

448
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:16,520
I love you guys.

449
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,320
They're just so much fun.

450
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,320
You said tax, right?

451
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:20,320
She'll see.

452
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:21,320
I did.

453
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,320
I did.

454
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:23,320
I ran out though.

455
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:24,320
I've already drank all of mine.

456
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:25,320
Damn.

457
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:26,320
That was quick.

458
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:27,320
I've got to prepare better.

459
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,320
Okay.

460
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,000
So, yes, here's my question.

461
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,000
All right.

462
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:37,440
So I think on instantiation, Vitalik Baturin or how have you spelled his name?

463
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:43,760
He was sent like a trillion, yeah, exactly.

464
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,120
He was sent like a trillion Shiba Inu, right?

465
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,680
And I just sat in his wallet for a long time.

466
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,000
I assumed that he never paid tax on it, whatever.

467
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:59,360
However, instead of like selling it or using it, he actually sent it to a charity.

468
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:07,040
Does the charity pay tax on it at time of reception and is it relevant whether the charity

469
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,760
has like a means of usage, right?

470
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,560
Let's say, I know there's a couple of charities out there that just have a wallet.

471
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,120
Let's say I just say that I sent them $10 in Bitcoin, right?

472
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,120
Yeah.

473
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,120
I do this.

474
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:22,120
So go ahead.

475
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:23,120
Yeah.

476
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,120
I do as well.

477
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,120
You sent $10 in Bitcoin.

478
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:26,120
I think you said $10 in Bitcoin.

479
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:27,120
I was like, I'm sorry.

480
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,120
Casually.

481
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,120
I'm a casual.

482
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,120
I'm a casual.

483
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,120
I'm a casual.

484
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,120
I'm a casual.

485
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:33,120
I'm a casual.

486
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:34,120
I'm a casual.

487
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,120
I'm a casual.

488
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,120
I'm a casual.

489
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:42,160
If they don't actually have the wallet or know how to use the tokens, how to sell them,

490
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,680
what have you, they would still have tax on it, right?

491
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,840
If they're a real charity like a 503 in the US, they are tax exempt.

492
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:51,840
That's the whole thing.

493
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,720
If they're a real charity, charities are tax exempt.

494
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:55,320
They don't pay taxes on anything.

495
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:56,320
Really?

496
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:57,320
Yeah.

497
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:58,320
No, they don't pay taxes on anything.

498
00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:59,680
So you're saying you're saying Acron Juno don't pay any tax?

499
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:00,800
Like a church.

500
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:01,800
Same thing.

501
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:02,800
They don't pay taxes on them.

502
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,040
If you give a church 20 bucks, they're not paying tax on them.

503
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,040
They're all tax free.

504
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,200
So like we give to, we give to, we use the giving blocks.

505
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,120
So the giving blocks are the true 503 and they pass all that through 100%.

506
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,200
They convert, I think they use, I thought they used Gemini in the past.

507
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:20,200
Are they still around?

508
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:21,200
I don't know.

509
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,720
But whatever, they used to use Gemini or a couple other exchanges, but they're a 503

510
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:24,720
with those exchanges.

511
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:27,560
They exchange 100% and they just, they just donate it out.

512
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:28,560
Yeah.

513
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:29,560
Huh.

514
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:30,560
Okay.

515
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:31,560
They don't deal with that shit.

516
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:32,560
Yeah.

517
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:33,560
Okay.

518
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:34,560
But I guess that answers that question.

519
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:35,560
It's a very clear answer to that question.

520
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:36,560
Yeah.

521
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,080
That's the whole point is like, if you're a true 503C, like then you don't need to, then

522
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,640
you can just ignore all that shit and just, you just, you live like you live in Puerto

523
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,960
Rico or, or, or Portugal or some shit, right?

524
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:53,640
You just, here there's a specific rule in the crypto assets handbook that says that

525
00:37:53,640 --> 00:38:00,200
if you're airdropped token and have no knowledge of it, interaction with it or interest in

526
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:05,320
it, you can actually just fucking ignore it.

527
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,160
Because you could basically be grieved by a token.

528
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,160
So there is a specific,

529
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:10,160
Do they call it grieved?

530
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,680
It's when they don't call it that.

531
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:13,680
That's pretty awesome, yeah.

532
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:20,480
It's a shame they don't, but it's like, it's, yeah, it's like a weird and somewhat open

533
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,520
to interpretation clause, which is essentially like, yeah, you, you can just be like, ignore

534
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:26,520
shit.

535
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,320
If some of you just like, oh God, like that fucking, like, like then you all the fucking

536
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:37,040
stuff you airdropped in 2021, like bit song and stuff where you just like, yeah, yeah,

537
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:46,080
it's not like, I think I've got, I mean, well, bits, bit songs, bit songs token, it's not

538
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,560
really worth much and the airdrops not worth much.

539
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:54,160
Don't think the, the, I know they don't give a shit.

540
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:55,160
They're good devs.

541
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,000
They're, they're, it's not the time for that.

542
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,000
I did.

543
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:04,120
I've gone on and on about what I think about what is going to work and what isn't working

544
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,280
with regards to music industry before it's, that's not, I'm not going to repeat myself

545
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,280
on that.

546
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,880
Anyway, so the point is that you don't have to, you don't have to worry about that stuff.

547
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:17,360
If someone just like dumps a bunch of crap on you, you can just be like, forget it, whatever.

548
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:22,120
But then there's also a weird one where you, if you lose full, if you fully lose access

549
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:29,160
to the wallet, you can also write it off, but again, this is where the assets versus

550
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,680
income thing happens because you, it's just assets.

551
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,200
I don't think, I'm not even sure you can claim an asset loss.

552
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:41,560
I think you just don't incur taxable events after the point where you lose access to it.

553
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,480
And yeah, I don't see how you, I don't know.

554
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,480
I'm actually glad that they put that.

555
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:52,640
If you had 1000 cars from the four court of your used car dealership, you would be like,

556
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,560
yes, I'm going to claim the fucking asset loss on those, right?

557
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:57,560
Right.

558
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:58,560
Yeah.

559
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:06,920
So, you know, just because we have whatever, 54,000 very, very small three wheeler trikes

560
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:12,360
known as Juno's or whatever as a company, you know, if somebody nicks all of our 54,000

561
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:17,240
trikes, you know, those ones, you know, when you see those guys with like, you know, the

562
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:21,520
Harley Davidson, you know, like the real, the leather and the chrome and it's trike.

563
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:22,520
Yeah.

564
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:23,520
Yeah, that's badass.

565
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:24,520
Oh yeah.

566
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:25,520
Yeah.

567
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:26,520
Okay.

568
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,520
That's, that's a flex, I guess.

569
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:33,040
Although I suppose actually some, I shouldn't make jokes with some people who ride trikes

570
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,640
are obviously disabled and that's, and they're living their best life.

571
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,600
And so actually I now feel really bad.

572
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,920
How the fuck do we get on trikes?

573
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,520
All right, can we stop talking about tax?

574
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:43,520
Okay.

575
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:44,520
Let's talk about neutron.

576
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,920
I've got one thing to do.

577
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:47,920
Oh shit.

578
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:49,920
I thought we got rid of this segment.

579
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:56,920
Oh, we have, we have, so we've opened the page at the tough guy section.

580
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,920
I have a, wait, I have a quick question.

581
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:07,480
The one that was performed last week by performed, performed, sub part, sub part, you know, host

582
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:08,480
structure.

583
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,200
And that, or was that, that was natural selection?

584
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:18,280
I think it was like an online select a really situation because there's a website in the

585
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,480
book where you can get, you can get a hot.

586
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:21,480
Yeah.

587
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:22,480
Why use it for governance votes?

588
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,480
Yeah.

589
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,000
The book is only the first five years, I think.

590
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,000
Oh yeah.

591
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,320
So it's only, it's only the first 1500 or so.

592
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:37,600
So there's literally thousands more, including some of the stone cold classics that are not

593
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:45,600
represented in this book that we've, that we've established from our selections in previous

594
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:46,600
weeks.

595
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:47,600
Please go ahead with the drill tree.

596
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,400
The, they're actually, I, I, I, I put my finger on one and sadly all of the other ones are

597
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,360
actually better, but nevermind.

598
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,520
You can make it, you can change my followers.

599
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:00,520
It's about wrong.

600
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,400
Who all hate me and wish to kick my ass on.

601
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,780
No one can time.

602
00:42:08,780 --> 00:42:14,140
Why do you love me?

603
00:42:14,140 --> 00:42:19,680
Because, well, I mean, what do they do when friends in the neighborhood are weddings,

604
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:26,700
or dad & mom's, man, when youorming a subdivision matter, it's complicated, especially for

605
00:42:26,700 --> 00:42:27,860
people.

606
00:42:27,860 --> 00:42:33,560
If you have a moment, invite your friends, Jeśli pressure, yes.

607
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:38,560
I don't know what you're talking about, but I'll you would love it.

608
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,560
Actually, that's that might be a that might be a game of notes.

609
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:47,560
Watch because you would have even early on it's still good, but like even early on it was amazing.

610
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,560
Let me find a link for you. I'll throw you on what your way.

611
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:57,560
So I have a recommended monkey dust because that's like that's the most that is that is like the people are like, oh, yeah, bridge comedies.

612
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:02,560
And so it's like, yeah, there's like a spectrum with like the ones that make it around the world.

613
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:12,560
And then there's the fucks up shit, which is the stuff that all the comedians were watching so they can make those kind of dark ones that are kind of palatable for everybody.

614
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:20,560
It's like they can make the kind of dark ship because they're mainlining the one where there's a say in monkey dust like the level of darkness we're talking about.

615
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,560
There is a recurring Joe.

616
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,560
There's a recurring sketch every single episode is the same.

617
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,560
It has the same sketches, which is for the different setup and a different ending.

618
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,560
And then there's a couple of other additional sequences that come in each episode that form a larger arc.

619
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:46,560
And it's all this dystopian version of kind of new labor, late new labor Britain, which is a reference that nobody other than perhaps two or three people in the chat will get.

620
00:43:46,560 --> 00:44:01,560
And one of the sketches is basically a son going to his father who's kind of like his parents are split up and the mother is doing great living her best life.

621
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,560
And the father is basically living in a bed sit and loot it.

622
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,560
That's another I think it's gluten, maybe it's Croydon, but it's like not it's not a good situation.

623
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:19,560
And the set up for every single week is the son tries to connect with his father and some I can't you can't believe how dark this is now.

624
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:20,560
I've remembered it anyway.

625
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,560
It's actually just somewhere beyond dark.

626
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:24,560
Now my father as well.

627
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:29,560
I'm actually just like, God, it's actually the person who wrote this was fucking cold as ice.

628
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,560
Anyway, he's trying to connect with his father who he doesn't see.

629
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:38,560
And in doing so every week, he says something that upsets his father so much that he goes and kills himself.

630
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,560
That is that is what the recurring segments are.

631
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,560
Bucky dust.

632
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,560
That's just one of many of that level of darkness.

633
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:52,560
Every episode, every episode, there's also a section where a man in a witchfinder hat.

634
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,560
This is this around the time of the pedophilia scare in the UK, which was a thing.

635
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:14,560
A man in a kind of witchfinder hat like a middle ages, which find a hat called the pedophinder general goes to a public place accuses somebody of being a pedophile on various various grounds and essentially incites a mob to string them up.

636
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:27,560
And you see like, yeah, like it like he goes like to a swimming pool and goes to the lifeguard, he says, you're a pedophile. And it says like he has his swimming trunks with the brand Speedo on them and he's got his hands on his waist.

637
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,560
So it's covering the S and he's like, you even admit it.

638
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,560
And he's like, what?

639
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,560
And then they basically just kill this guy.

640
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,560
Sounds like a Mr. Bean skit.

641
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:38,560
Yeah, it's great.

642
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,560
It's really, really dark.

643
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,560
So Ben, Ben Davis in the chat says, how dark would you say League of Gentlemen is?

644
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:45,560
League of Gentlemen is quite dark.

645
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,560
League of Gentlemen is like an eight out of 10.

646
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,560
I think Monkey Dust is like a 10 out of 10.

647
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,560
I mean, I mean, it has a recurring sketch about suicide.

648
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,560
It's pretty dark, but very, very good.

649
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:57,560
Very, very good.

650
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:58,560
Neutron.

651
00:45:58,560 --> 00:45:59,560
Neutron.

652
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:04,560
So Neutron, tell me what's, Schultz, tell us what the hell's going on.

653
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:13,560
Yeah, so the classic case of the big validators have made sure that we haven't actually launched yet.

654
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:23,560
So Neutron is the first change to become part of the Adam Economic Zone or ICS, the was EnterChain Security.

655
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:32,560
So basically they're going to utilize the Cosmos Hub validators in order to validate their chain.

656
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:39,560
And there have been quite a few dry runs for this basically to like prepare validators for launching.

657
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:47,560
And today was supposed to be the day for launch and a handful of validators said, nah, we're out.

658
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,560
We're not participating in the launch.

659
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,560
We'll join after.

660
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,560
And naturally it's some of the largest validators.

661
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,560
So there's a bunch of tweets on Twitter.

662
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,560
I guess that's kind of obvious that it's Twitter.

663
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:06,560
Of like, like four out of the top 10 being like, nah, we're out of here.

664
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:15,560
Yeah, so it's not, I guess it's not a huge deal, but it feels very ironic that there's been like, I think there's been about three dry runs by now.

665
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:21,560
But because there's been fears of like tombstone and jailing, teams just haven't wanted to join.

666
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,560
You are muted.

667
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,560
And where did, so wait, what does go for cigarettes again?

668
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,560
So why were teams afraid of tombstone?

669
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:35,560
Were they afraid of tombstone because the chain halted at Genesis and then didn't start.

670
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,560
It's just been making rounds.

671
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:38,560
Yeah.

672
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:51,560
So the idea, so yeah, so Neutron requires that or doesn't require, but recommends you use the same private validator key for your ICS chains as it does for the top tier chain.

673
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:52,560
So for Cosmos Hub, right?

674
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:58,560
And so because you're using the same private validator key, people are like, well, I'm using the same key to sign validators.

675
00:47:58,560 --> 00:47:59,560
That's kind of scary.

676
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,560
Now, you know, they're considered different networks, so it doesn't actually matter.

677
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:04,560
You can use the same private key.

678
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:11,560
Like if you were a true validator D gen, you would just copy your same private validator, get all your validators or whatever and use that to launch it.

679
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:12,560
Horrible idea.

680
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,560
But that's the recommended thing for Neutron right now.

681
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:23,560
And so because people are reusing the same private validator key by necessity, the fear is that because you're signing multiple chains with the same key, the old tombstone.

682
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:34,560
And there was something that happened like that during the dry runs where a bunch of validators, I don't know that they're tombstone, but they're certainly jailed.

683
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,560
But obviously that's due to being misconfigured, not due to.

684
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:48,560
So what we're basically saying is that the complexity of the slashing mechanism in Cosmos has literally resulted in a chain stalling on start.

685
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,560
Yes. Yeah, that's basically, yeah.

686
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,560
I mean, they've been trying to get it going for like eight hours now.

687
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:55,560
Yeah.

688
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,560
Oh, they're producing blocks as a fresh for me.

689
00:48:58,560 --> 00:48:59,560
Yeah.

690
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,560
Apparently Neutron producing blocks since three minutes ago.

691
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:03,560
And that was a couple of minutes ago.

692
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,560
So maybe five, five whole minutes of producing blocks at this point.

693
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:08,560
Well done, Neutron.

694
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,560
Happy birthday to you, Neutron chain.

695
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:17,560
Finally starting despite the limitations of how the technology works.

696
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:36,560
Anyway, I mean, yeah, so I had a really interesting conversation with an academic the other week, not important the context, but the, the, they weren't familiar with Cosmos and they were like, what are some things that are unusual about?

697
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,560
And I was like, you know, delegate approved stake, but and they were kind of like, not going to make it.

698
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,560
I mean, I'm paraphrasing a longer conversation.

699
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:55,560
And the interesting, there was also a thing about the, yeah, like essentially to some studying and they were like, who cares?

700
00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:00,560
And I was like, well, indeed, if you can't double, you can either double spend or you can't.

701
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:09,560
And if you can't double spend, then who gives a shit? And they were like, well, precisely. And you're like, that isn't the whole point that you can attack the network as much as you like.

702
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:14,560
And they were like, well, the real concern is you basically did ask, right?

703
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:27,560
That's, that's, that's probably the reason why you want to reject malicious validator because they could be just hammering something with the knowledge they can either slow down the chain or, you know, whatever there's a bunch of different attack vectors, right?

704
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:33,560
But yeah, basically what I'm saying in the long and short, short series that we're right.

705
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:41,560
Although Neutron has not started. So maybe, maybe everybody would just go, it's fine. We're totally okay with the team zoning and slash and all that stuff.

706
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,560
I, I don't know. I'll hop up in my soapbox for a little bit here again.

707
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:53,560
From what I've seen, I don't think any other group of state network has tombstoneing because they have different mechanisms for handling it, right?

708
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:59,560
Like, if your signature has already been logged, then don't log it again if they try and sign, right?

709
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:08,560
Like that, like that's all it takes if, if you're simplifying a bit to ensure safety of like people not trying to, you know, do an attack.

710
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:16,560
That's basically it. So then why is tombstoneing even really a thing whenever there's other ways around it?

711
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:21,560
And the tombstones we've even seen are like their accidents, supposedly.

712
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:33,560
I feel like actually, you know, I was saying the other week about how several weeks ago about how the drill tweet, you begin to realize when you've seen enough of them that they are useful contextually.

713
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,560
I've already forgotten the drill tweak of the week from this week.

714
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:43,560
But okay, you are a cosmos blockchain, POV, you are a cosmos blockchain.

715
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:56,560
The drill tweet of the week from this week could actively describe somebody trying to attack you, whatever it was, they try and attack me, but they do not have enough combat training to successfully injure me.

716
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,560
That is why you don't need tombstoneing, right?

717
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:10,560
Because they do not, your attackers do not have enough combat training to successfully injure you if you are using cryptographically signed blocks like you're done.

718
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:17,560
Yeah, well, in some networks, even do have it disabled like Akash Akash just have tombstoneing enabled in there.

719
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:24,560
I think it's their last upgrade that like six tombstones happened and then it moved on because they don't actually do tombstoneing.

720
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,560
So it's called just trying to bell. Yeah.

721
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:34,560
Man, Akash, that's the name I've not heard it sometime. That's what I was thinking.

722
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,560
Yeah, what are they doing at the moment?

723
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,560
Let me add to the board over here.

724
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,560
Yeah, add it to the board.

725
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:50,560
Okay, well, yeah, now Neutron started, we can't just shit talk Neutron.

726
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,560
So that's what was I fell off.

727
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,560
So what was the final? What was the final decision there in terms of what the hell's going on?

728
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,560
Blocks are happening, but yes, it took how long did it take 12 hours or something?

729
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:03,560
I think like eight hours.

730
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:04,560
We can still talk shit.

731
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:10,560
We just can't talk shit about the chain. Now we talk shit about individuals, which is arguably way more fun.

732
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,560
Yeah, okay, we're here for it.

733
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:18,560
So, okay, so can I talk a point of business?

734
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:19,560
No.

735
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:20,560
Business.

736
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,560
So we looked at, no, it's not about taxes, don't worry.

737
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:32,560
Although it was tempting to make it to say something about taxes there just to kick it back into full circle tax mode.

738
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:45,560
Last week, I, during the mirror universe episode, I really enjoyed the contributions of a friend of the show, Funky, from the polka dot side of the fence.

739
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:53,560
One day, maybe we will actually convince polka to join us and get more polka based insights.

740
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,560
And another fun thing.

741
00:53:55,560 --> 00:54:03,560
I think we were able to push that pretty easily. He's been getting more and more interested in like conversations with people and like going out to lunch and stuff.

742
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:04,560
I think we can do it.

743
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,560
I mean, I think I'll be very, very cool.

744
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:17,560
And just a random piece of trivia, you know, the P2P reactor in like, you know, the rounds in Cosmos refer to as a polka.

745
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,560
Anyway, it would be good in the documentation.

746
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,560
And if you look at this, there's a whole, there's a little diagram that says this is the polka.

747
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:30,560
I think might even have dancers on it, although maybe that's the really old school whimsical nerd documentation.

748
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,560
Maybe they've updated that to be something slick and cool now.

749
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:42,560
Anyway, polka to polka dot different ecosystem very much enjoyed the insights from Funky.

750
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:55,560
And I wonder whether we should be considering having because obviously you said earlier, you said obviously we have some contact with people like Republic Crypto and stuff like that.

751
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,560
You know, we're obviously in that hearing.

752
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:08,560
We obviously have sort of like, I guess colleagues in other ecosystems who we also sort of talk to and like, and you know, being this is primarily a Cosmos podcast.

753
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:15,560
Would people be interested in us having people on from our wider networks and whatnot?

754
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:20,560
You know, let's let's know in the comments or on on Twitter at Game of Nodes.

755
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:25,560
I really, yeah, I was I was watching last week's listening back.

756
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:37,560
And I was like, it is nice to hear a different voice other than from our tiny little backwater, our little minopond in the broader CryptoC to maybe a little bit more.

757
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:43,560
So maybe we should maybe we should invite some other people on for a bit of fresh air.

758
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:45,560
But I don't know if that's a good idea or a bad idea.

759
00:55:45,560 --> 00:56:00,560
So I'm really curious to have like some sort of logic off with like, was it Sheldon from near and I don't know someone from from polka dot because near basically has substrate chains right using the octopus network.

760
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:09,560
So if it has shared security effectively like polka dot, and which also means that it has the same like development environment and stuff.

761
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:21,560
What's the value add of building a chain on polka dot as opposed to on near like near doesn't have the limitations that polka dot does as far as like app chains and auctions and things like that.

762
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:25,560
So what do what do people get out of it, aside from, I guess, a base community.

763
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:38,560
So maybe, all right, I guess to that point, like, yeah, having having the initial community is a good point to start with right like that's that's that is one of the value adds of Juno, right, you have the community and then you expand from there.

764
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,560
But in my mind near has a lot.

765
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:52,560
This is probably a hot take that shouldn't be thrown out near has more ability to expand than polka dot does define expand in this context.

766
00:56:52,560 --> 00:57:06,560
Well, one, they don't have the limitation of 100 app chain so just from that for two near has like sharding coming right so like that's a little more scalable like their development environment.

767
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,560
It is an absolute.

768
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:16,560
It's pretty fun like writing smart contracts for for their environment like you have you can do it like type script can do it and rust you can do it and

769
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:30,560
another language that I'm spacing on right now and all of them have a lot of great tooling for it like near has a lot of really great things going for it and with that in mind, it seems like a hard sell to to start on polka dot rather than near.

770
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:31,560
Yeah.

771
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:47,560
My impression though is that there is a little bit of the, you know, through tons of venture capital money at the problem, get great tooling, but there's still a bit of a desert of developers that but then that that I could be totally wrong about that.

772
00:57:47,560 --> 00:58:05,560
No, but that was just my impression of near was very much like people who had dev grants to work on near were working on it, but they weren't like necessarily like you know, like it wasn't it wasn't exactly organic you but then you know, like people want to be paid like maybe you just need to fucking do that through the bank at it.

773
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,560
Unlike Juno is what you're saying.

774
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:14,560
I'm like, I'm like, look, is it any different than any other.

775
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:29,560
Because we've been around the house of this cosmos did not do a good job in the last ball run of cashing out into fucking dollars and pounds and yen and making sure it can pay developers to work on stuff for a couple of years.

776
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:30,560
Yeah.

777
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:35,560
Lesson learned is a lesson we'll learn for our next business ventures.

778
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,560
The next ball run.

779
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:49,560
Yeah, for when I'm manager of McDonald's, I'll make sure to bear in mind to when there's a when there's a run on big mags to cash out as you're standing over the fryer yelling at the person putting things together.

780
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,560
Let me tell you, next time there's a bull run.

781
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,560
I know how to cash right.

782
00:58:54,560 --> 00:59:08,560
So it's at this is actually a true story in my like not like a corner shop but like the next shop up where I do my grocery shopping. It's like a big, a big chain.

783
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:36,560
There was a very, there's a very loud member of staff who's I think like a shift manager and for literally from about I want to say like you can see where the story going like about April 20, 21 to maybe about May, June of 2022 was always very, very loudly giving crypto related financial

784
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:44,560
advice to his younger colleagues at this shop whenever I was doing my grocery shop and that abruptly changed.

785
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,560
I like I should buy it is no shit.

786
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:50,560
I like it's not funny because like we're you know, it is people's lives.

787
00:59:50,560 --> 01:00:03,560
I should make a joke about it, but it was it was like it was like, you know, like a perverse tiny window into like, like, you know, when you see like somebody else out because everything we do is online.

788
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:09,560
We don't see real people ever is this is just like it's just talking to a fucking screen and typing into a box.

789
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:16,560
And then you see somebody in the real world who is like, then I tell you man these cryptos that can keep going up and you're like, oh my God, we're all the same.

790
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,560
We look like this. This is what we look like this.

791
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,560
This this guy, he's just saying out loud.

792
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:26,560
I mean, we literally do a podcast and say these things out loud, but he's just saying out loud the same things we're thinking.

793
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:33,560
And I'm stood here with a bag of fucking oranges in one hand and and and some I don't say coriander.

794
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:37,560
You guys call it cilantro in the other.

795
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,560
Coriander.

796
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:40,560
Oh, the same thing.

797
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:41,560
So no.

798
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:50,560
Oh, the seeds but the seeds the seeds when they get ground down we call coriander that we use in cooking, but cilantro is actually the leaf.

799
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,560
So what do you call do you call it coriander seeds?

800
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:54,560
Like if you have a powder or something like that.

801
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:55,560
Coriander and coriander.

802
01:00:55,560 --> 01:01:00,560
Well, I think our situation once again, our situation is better.

803
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,560
Coriander coriander coriander coriander.

804
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:04,560
Coriander.

805
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,560
Obviously if you powder coriander is coriander, but that seeds versus the versus the leaf, right?

806
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:14,560
When a coriander powder, I think it's dried coriander and then you crush it and then I think it's seeds.

807
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,560
All right, to be defined.

808
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:18,560
I'm sure.

809
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:19,560
I'm sure.

810
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:20,560
Anyway, I think I think it's a dry.

811
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:22,560
I think the power is the dried herb.

812
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:23,560
No, I think the powder.

813
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,560
I think that the potter is the dried seeds and ground down.

814
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:27,560
I'll check.

815
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,560
Have to make the show notes.

816
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,560
This is the questions that we're asking.

817
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:34,560
Anyway, I'm stood there.

818
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:35,560
I'm in journalism.

819
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,560
I stood there with my coriander and I'm thinking, are we this one?

820
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:41,560
Are we this diluted?

821
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,560
And then you're like, he said it with their things were going up.

822
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:44,560
Is that what he said?

823
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:45,560
Well, for like a year.

824
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:47,560
Oh, all right.

825
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:48,560
Okay.

826
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:49,560
Yeah.

827
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,560
Oh, to get destined.

828
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:54,560
And you're like, don't get investing.

829
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:56,560
Do not do not this is this man.

830
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:57,560
Do not this is this man.

831
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,560
His financial advice is bad.

832
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,560
I mean, so I'll still do that.

833
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:04,560
Be like, Hey, these things are awesome.

834
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:07,560
But then I'll be like, I'll never refer to his investing.

835
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:08,560
It's always gambling.

836
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,560
Like, yeah, I'm going to go gamble on this.

837
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:11,560
Yeah.

838
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:12,560
Cause that's what it is.

839
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:18,560
Like someone I know, wasn't me put $9 into a new token that came online

840
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,560
like two days ago and they now have like 16,000.

841
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:26,560
It's gambling that like by definition is gambling.

842
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:27,560
Whoa, what?

843
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:28,560
So what?

844
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:29,560
Yeah.

845
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:30,560
Pepe is not.

846
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:32,560
That's a good retirement strategy.

847
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:33,560
Yes.

848
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:34,560
It was.

849
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:35,560
Yeah.

850
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,560
So I guess they put $9 into it and because the Curie Pulsar low,

851
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,560
they're having to take out like one eighth at a time in order to make

852
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:43,560
sure they hasn't seen it.

853
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:44,560
But yeah.

854
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:45,560
It's a policy investment.

855
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:47,560
When you make so much money, you make so much money.

856
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:51,560
You can single handedly destroy an entire economy.

857
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:52,560
Exactly right.

858
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:53,560
Yeah.

859
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:57,560
Like when you go from, when you go from literally like Mino to George

860
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:02,560
Soros overnight, you know, the ability to crush a major world economy.

861
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,560
What power, what source?

862
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:05,560
Source.

863
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,560
This is how we, this is why you get addicted to this total shit show,

864
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:10,560
isn't it?

865
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:11,560
One more thing.

866
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:17,560
I knew trying before we move on off of this since our Coriander

867
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:18,560
decision.

868
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:19,560
Okay.

869
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,560
I think what we talked about before was the idea that ICS is

870
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:26,560
inherently flawed because it relies on a set of validators that

871
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,560
necessarily don't give a shit about small chains, having to give a

872
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:32,560
shit to make sure those small chains are successful.

873
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:33,560
Correct.

874
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,560
And I think that this was an example of that family of that exact

875
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,560
concern, which is if they're not going to be able to do that,

876
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:42,560
that exact concern, which is if they cared about those small chains,

877
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:44,560
they would have been on already.

878
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:48,560
And we've been a part of a load of GenTex in the last year and none

879
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:51,560
of those big groups are in there, which means if they were in there

880
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:54,560
and they were saying, hey, we're in every one of these and now this is a

881
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:56,560
better way of delivering that, that's one thing.

882
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:58,560
But nobody asked for this.

883
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:01,560
And so I think this is, I think this is a bad strategy.

884
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,560
And this is not a technical, this is, I'm not talking about

885
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:05,560
technically, technically, it's great.

886
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:06,560
Financially, it's great.

887
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:07,560
I'm talking about culturally.

888
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:11,560
Today, what we saw here is a perfect example and that's at launch.

889
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:15,560
Like when you go through 20 fucking upgrades over the next six months,

890
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:21,560
right, and everyone is stalled for 12 or 24 hours because of apathy,

891
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:25,560
especially since they're not making anything still like right now you

892
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:26,560
have a chain that's launching.

893
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,560
And so there's a, there's going to be a pump, right?

894
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,560
But if you're in the doldrums of running a chain for the third year and

895
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,560
you have the 20th upgrade a year trying to make something happen,

896
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,560
eventually that is going to fall apart, I think.

897
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:40,560
And that's better served by small validators.

898
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,560
Like this is a natural, I don't know, I think it's a natural ecosystem

899
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:44,560
that needs to handle itself.

900
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,560
And for the chains that are new and it has a lot of risk,

901
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:49,560
those should be new, those should be small validators.

902
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,560
Like there should be change, there should be groups that want to be able

903
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,560
to spend that to be able to take, take that risk, not ones that are going

904
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:56,560
to ignore it because it's not worth anything.

905
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:58,560
Well, that's actually, it might be one.

906
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:03,560
So post human product, a, an analysis about a year ago about how,

907
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:07,560
like the incentive structure for validators is very different where

908
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:11,560
they're in like the top third, middle third, bottom third, right?

909
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:14,560
So if you're in the top third, you basically have zero incentive to put

910
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,560
any effort into the chain because you're already up there.

911
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:17,560
You don't need to do anything.

912
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:18,560
You're there.

913
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:21,560
The middle validators tend to be the ones that do the most because

914
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,560
they're like, Hey, I have something to prove by, by being here.

915
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:25,560
Or staying there.

916
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,560
And, or staying there.

917
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:28,560
Exactly. Right.

918
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:30,560
They haven't earned their, they've, they've earned their position and

919
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:31,560
they want to keep their position.

920
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:35,560
And the bottom third, they often do a ton, but because they're at the bottom,

921
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:37,560
they can't sing so much time into it.

922
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:38,560
Right.

923
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:39,560
Or it's just losing money.

924
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:41,560
So therefore they're looking for the next one.

925
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:42,560
Exactly.

926
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:44,560
They're looking for something else that could be in the middle third or top

927
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:45,560
third.

928
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:46,560
Exactly. Right.

929
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,560
And so that incentive mechanism still holds further the cosmos where

930
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:53,560
because the top third is like, well, why should I give a shit about this

931
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:54,560
little cosmosm chain?

932
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:55,560
Right.

933
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,560
We're still all beholden to them and have to deal with their

934
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:03,560
upgrades and, and, and their, their systems and their bullshit.

935
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:04,560
Right.

936
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:05,560
Bullshit.

937
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:07,560
But because they're in the top third, like there's no unseating them.

938
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:08,560
There just isn't.

939
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:09,560
Not in the cosmos.

940
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:10,560
Not in the sea.

941
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:12,560
Especially since now they can't get slashed.

942
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:13,560
Right.

943
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:14,560
They can't get slashed. Right.

944
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,560
Like, so the, whoever missed it today and who's going to miss, is that correct?

945
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:21,560
Uh, so I don't remember if it's everyone that can be slashed or it's like a

946
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:22,560
bottom percent.

947
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,560
So Neutron did some smart things with theirs.

948
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:29,560
Um, they made it so that a bottom portion of the said basically doesn't

949
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:32,560
have to sign on because it's adding a lot of overhead that they don't need.

950
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:34,560
Like they shouldn't have to foot. Right.

951
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:35,560
Okay.

952
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:36,560
Yeah.

953
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:37,560
Which is, I appreciate the thought.

954
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,560
I think it's a little backwards because again, the bottom ones, you know,

955
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:41,560
kind of support them.

956
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:42,560
Yeah.

957
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:43,560
Where was I going with this?

958
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:44,560
Okay.

959
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:45,560
So James said, go ahead.

960
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:46,560
No.

961
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:49,560
See, James just said the bottom 5% doesn't have to run Neutron.

962
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:53,560
Top 90% will get jailed, but slashing is done via governance.

963
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:57,560
So they can get jailed in the Cosmos, Cosmos sub for not being, um, active,

964
01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:59,560
but they won't be slashed for it.

965
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:03,560
But because slashing is so low in the, in the Cosmos ecosystem anyway,

966
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,560
aside from, I have a single exception to that.

967
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:07,560
Yeah.

968
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:12,560
Actually downtime, like your downtime while being slashed matters more than

969
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:14,560
the slash percent itself.

970
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:15,560
Yeah.

971
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:16,560
But jail, jail, you're not earning rewards, right?

972
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:18,560
So that's still, that's still painful.

973
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:20,560
It's painful for all the delegators.

974
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:22,560
Like if Cosmos station, I don't know who didn't show up today.

975
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:26,560
I missed that, but Cosmos station doesn't show up and they don't run for

976
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:27,560
Neutron and they end up getting jailed.

977
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:29,560
And then somebody goes, why the fuck are we jailed?

978
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:31,560
Somebody wakes up over there, right?

979
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:32,560
He goes, oh shit.

980
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:38,560
So, so, so a question then as well is that, especially for the Cosmos hub,

981
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:43,560
where there are some institutional validators, like I'm all for, you know,

982
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:48,560
the, the, you know, obviously Juno at Genesis excluded, um, some centralized

983
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:55,560
exchanges who are validators that, um, on the hub, um, you know,

984
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:58,560
because of concentration reasons and whatnot, those guys are going to have to

985
01:07:58,560 --> 01:07:59,560
run Neutron, right?

986
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:06,560
So if you're just Jimmy doesn't know fucking nothing like I was,

987
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:07,560
Smallballs.

988
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:08,560
Yeah.

989
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:12,560
Like I was in 2018 or whenever it was, I first got my hands on Atom on

990
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:13,560
Kraken.

991
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:14,560
Yeah.

992
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:17,560
If you're Jimmy Smallballs, you just been sad with your Atom on

993
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:18,560
Kraken.

994
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:19,560
It's funnier when you say it.

995
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,560
Fucking staked for the last four years.

996
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,560
You just, you're just making like Smallballs rewards, obviously, because

997
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:28,560
it's custodial.

998
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:36,560
But then Kraken, you know, decide that they fuck up the Neutron thing and you

999
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:37,560
get slashed.

1000
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:40,560
Oh no, you just stopped, they'll stop earning rewards, right?

1001
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:43,560
If they get jailed at them, they're, they're not signing, right?

1002
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:45,560
The VP structure changes.

1003
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:46,560
They're not earning.

1004
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:48,560
Ah, let's add one more thing.

1005
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:53,560
Suddenly Jimmy Smallballs, is he going to foot the bill for Neutron, a

1006
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:57,560
chain that Kraken rightly probably don't give a fuck about?

1007
01:08:57,560 --> 01:08:58,560
They don't give a fuck about.

1008
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:00,560
They don't give a fuck about that.

1009
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:05,560
Jimmy Smallballs is having his Smallballs shrunk even further.

1010
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:07,560
Well, actually, no, the inclusion of ICS.

1011
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:10,560
Well, then their percentage of, their percentage of Atom goes up, right?

1012
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:14,560
Because, because Kraken's jailed out, at least for that small period,

1013
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,560
obviously, but, but if they're to get jailed out, then, then their VP goes up,

1014
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:18,560
doesn't it?

1015
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:22,560
Well, Jimmy Smallballs is using custodial, Kraken's custodial staking,

1016
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:24,560
not available to U.S. citizens.

1017
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:26,560
Oh, I'm sorry.

1018
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:28,560
Because they staked it in 2018 and they left it.

1019
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:29,560
This is a high-end.

1020
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:30,560
Yes.

1021
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:31,560
Sorry.

1022
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:34,560
I thought it was a valid error, Jimmy Smallballs, but you think it's a

1023
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:37,560
pill, yeah, that would be, I think that's, I think that's actually the name of

1024
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:41,560
Don Kryptonian's new, new name change as of this week.

1025
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:43,560
I'm thinking about it, actually.

1026
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,560
I'm just, I'm just giving it, giving it some thought.

1027
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:48,560
Smallballs blockchain.com I'm going to register right now.

1028
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:50,560
It's www.Lochate.com.

1029
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:53,560
I gotta get, I gotta get the inverse.

1030
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:58,560
You gotta get the big of the spool, you know, the end of the yang.

1031
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:00,560
You buy both sides, that's right.

1032
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:01,560
That's crypto.

1033
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:06,560
But, well, like I think about it, I kind of remember the point.

1034
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:09,560
But, you know, but, but, but I think it genuinely, it's genuinely about the

1035
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:13,560
thing that like, I guess, I guess, so the counter argument to all of that is that

1036
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:18,560
like Jimmy Smallballs should have custodied their own crypto.

1037
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:19,560
Yes.

1038
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:21,560
And then voted no on ICS.

1039
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:27,560
Then they could safely return their carefully self-custodied crypto, crypto

1040
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:29,560
back to a custodial solution.

1041
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:34,560
And once again, maintain the rewards on their Smallballs, Smallbags.

1042
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:38,560
Jimmy Smallbags, that was, that was probably what I was trying to go

1043
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:39,560
for.

1044
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:40,560
That's right.

1045
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,560
Literally too fucking tired because I haven't answered.

1046
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:46,560
Maybe I was trying to say Jimmy Smallbags and Smallballs came out.

1047
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:48,560
We'll never know.

1048
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:53,560
Well, so, I mean, here's what, here's one cool thing about ICS, right?

1049
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:54,560
We're just shitting on it right now.

1050
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,560
One thing I think it's really cool is it further incentivizes people to take

1051
01:10:57,560 --> 01:10:59,560
custody of their own tokens, right?

1052
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,560
If you go through Kraken, Kraken's now earning neutron, whatever their token's

1053
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:04,560
called, I think it's neutron.

1054
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:08,560
And soon to be stride, and with stride, they'll be earning, you know,

1055
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:09,560
stake stride.

1056
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:12,560
But not if they're going through Coinbase, not if they're going through Kraken.

1057
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:17,560
There's more incentive than ever to take your tokens off those custodial

1058
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:19,560
solutions and delegating on your own.

1059
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:22,560
Create more taxable events for yourself.

1060
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:24,560
For shits, coins you don't care about.

1061
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:26,560
You could say the same for Quasar.

1062
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:28,560
You could say the same for liquid staking.

1063
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:30,560
You could say all those things, right?

1064
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:33,560
Other than just basic staking of coin, you're missing out on all those.

1065
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:36,560
All those other DeFi bullshit things.

1066
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:39,560
Yeah, I mean, absolutely, for sure.

1067
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:40,560
Like all those situations.

1068
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:44,560
Like if you're going to participate in the ecosystem, then obviously being

1069
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:50,560
staked or having a small, having Jimmy Small bags, Jimmy Small bags at

1070
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:53,560
Kraken is going to miss out on all those situations, right?

1071
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,560
Governance, all this shit is passing over.

1072
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:00,560
And that's actually a good point because the thing they're going to miss out

1073
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:06,560
most on is not those DGM rewards, but they actually not participate in

1074
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:09,560
governance, which is obviously, that's the reason everybody is here.

1075
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:10,560
It's not to make money.

1076
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:12,560
It's not to be users of new tools.

1077
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:18,560
It's to participate in drama that is above the level that, you know,

1078
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:23,560
Twitter drama is 2008, right?

1079
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:25,560
Crypto drama on chain.

1080
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:30,560
Now that is, that's the black tar heroin that everybody's looking for.

1081
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:33,560
Well, so funny thing about this.

1082
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:37,560
I was scrolling Reddit the other day on the Cosmos Hub subreddit and someone

1083
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:42,560
made a post of like, hey, who should I delegate to on the Cosmos Hub?

1084
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:44,560
And I went in there just to see what was happening.

1085
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:48,560
And some guy was like, yeah, I'll delegate to basically anyone but like

1086
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:52,560
Pocachu and Lavender 5 and Notional because of their governance bullshit.

1087
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:56,560
And I was like, what kind of bullshit?

1088
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:57,560
Exactly.

1089
01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:00,560
He didn't say anything about like what it was about.

1090
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:03,560
But yeah, it was us three named right next to each other about it.

1091
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,560
And I was just like, I didn't message anything.

1092
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:08,560
Pocachu and Notional?

1093
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:11,560
Pocachu, Notional and Lavender 5.

1094
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:13,560
Those were the three named.

1095
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,560
Have you guys ever voted the same way on those three?

1096
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:19,560
It's kind of a mixed bag of votes.

1097
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,560
I don't know that we have.

1098
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:25,560
I mean, Pocachu and I tend to vote relatively similarly.

1099
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:27,560
Yeah, us too.

1100
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:29,560
But yeah, okay.

1101
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,560
Anyway, I started to throw that because I saw him just start laughing.

1102
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:34,560
What are you talking about?

1103
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:35,560
Get rid of this stupid shit.

1104
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:36,560
Vote your own shares.

1105
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:37,560
Vote your own shares.

1106
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:39,560
No avito everything.

1107
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,560
So we actually need to put it in the show notes.

1108
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:46,560
A friend of the show, Asaf from Secret Network,

1109
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:51,560
provided the, if you want to vote.

1110
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:53,560
So those of the listened a couple of weeks ago,

1111
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:56,560
we had a show with Spoo.

1112
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:59,560
And she said the universe brain move, right?

1113
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:03,560
For any governance prop is what she saw on one chain.

1114
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:07,560
I think it was Stargates or it was the hub where you vote,

1115
01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:10,560
weighted vote 50% yes, 50% no avito.

1116
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:12,560
Love it.

1117
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:17,560
And Asaf provided the Json for that.

1118
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:18,560
Love it.

1119
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:22,560
If you're curious about how to do that yourself at home,

1120
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:25,560
how to be an IQ 9000 mega Chad,

1121
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:27,560
we will put it in the show notes.

1122
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:28,560
We'll link to it.

1123
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:34,560
We've obviously retweeted big balls of stuff with our,

1124
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:40,560
you know, his fucking IQ 9000 a game, a game moves where,

1125
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:42,560
you know, we're, we're just, we're just,

1126
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:44,560
he's the big dog when it comes to these,

1127
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:47,560
these pro governance moves, we're just the little dogs.

1128
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:51,560
So we have to pay respect to that via the medium of game of

1129
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:54,560
nodes Twitter we have done, but you can go on the Twitter

1130
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:55,560
at game of nodes.

1131
01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:56,560
That's a second.

1132
01:14:56,560 --> 01:14:57,560
What is, what has happened?

1133
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:00,560
We've obviously had to up our games this last week.

1134
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:03,560
You know, there's competition, there's blood in the water.

1135
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:04,560
We're not going to improve the content,

1136
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:07,560
but we will plug our Twitter two times in 90 minutes.

1137
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:09,560
That's the concession.

1138
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:12,560
The question is, is it a shill or is it a Yop?

1139
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:13,560
Our Twitter.

1140
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:14,560
It's a shill.

1141
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:15,560
I think the shill.

1142
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:16,560
That's a shill.

1143
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:18,560
Shill down.

1144
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:19,560
Yup.

1145
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:20,560
Yup.

1146
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:21,560
Yup.

1147
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:22,560
Yeah.

1148
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:23,560
They should, they should add that.

1149
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:24,560
That should be a default option on the,

1150
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:26,560
on the Kepler validator wallet structure.

1151
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:27,560
50% yes.

1152
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:28,560
50% no one veto.

1153
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:29,560
That's just like one button.

1154
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:30,560
Yeah.

1155
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:32,560
It just says, it just says IQ 9000.

1156
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:33,560
This is game of nodes.

1157
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:34,560
Game of nodes.

1158
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:38,560
We could just fault Kepler and just stick that button.

1159
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:39,560
Let's do that.

1160
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:40,560
That way.

1161
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:41,560
I'd use it.

1162
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:42,560
I do like that website.

1163
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:43,560
Yeah.

1164
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:44,560
That's nice.

1165
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:45,560
Sandy should add that.

1166
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:48,560
That would be a weekend's worth of work for one,

1167
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:49,560
for one joke.

1168
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:50,560
One of you.

1169
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:51,560
It wouldn't be.

1170
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:52,560
Yeah.

1171
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,560
It wouldn't be the first time I'd done a weekend's worth of work for a payoff that

1172
01:15:56,560 --> 01:15:57,560
was really worth it.

1173
01:15:57,560 --> 01:15:59,560
But speaking of payoffs that wasn't really worth it.

1174
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:04,560
I heard there was a new core one vote that was coming due about a payment to

1175
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:06,560
Oh, outstanding payment.

1176
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:07,560
Speaking of notional.

1177
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:08,560
That's right.

1178
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:11,560
Speaking of things that aren't worth it.

1179
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:14,560
So what there's a, there's a in dow dow at core one.

1180
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:15,560
There's a vote that's active.

1181
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:21,560
So obviously, obviously, core one is a sub dow of the Juno dow.

1182
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:23,560
And you can go on dow dow.

1183
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:24,560
Dow dow dow.

1184
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:26,560
Dow dow dow dow dow dow.

1185
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:28,560
Is she going to show up now?

1186
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:31,560
You can go on dow dow and you can look at the chat.

1187
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:37,560
You can go on dow dow and you can look at the core one voting history and

1188
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:39,560
everything that's up currently.

1189
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:44,560
And as some eagle eyed people have spotted, there is a proper at the

1190
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:49,560
moment for a dev payment to notional.

1191
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:53,560
The, I mean, so do you want me to explain the background to this?

1192
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:55,560
Clearly it's, it's clearly come up.

1193
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:57,560
I know men, people have seen it already.

1194
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:01,560
I think it was a while back, right?

1195
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:05,560
This is something that was decided two years ago, right?

1196
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:08,560
I can't remember how long ago this decided, but there was, so there was a,

1197
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:12,560
well, I should know where I can, I can pin it down from the sums of money

1198
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:14,560
involved to being in the bull run.

1199
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:15,560
Strange levels.

1200
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:21,560
You do a lot of, a lot of the core maintenance at work for IBC and a

1201
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:23,560
lot of the additional tooling around it.

1202
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:25,560
Things like IBC tests, things like that.

1203
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:28,560
And take points on a lot of that kind of stuff.

1204
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:34,560
So there was, there were two funding props for about one and a half

1205
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:36,560
million dollars a piece.

1206
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:41,560
Kind of, yeah, sort of tail end of the bull run type, type period.

1207
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:47,560
One for strange love for IBC tooling, primarily, but a variety of other

1208
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:51,560
things related to Juno core dev and public goods funding.

1209
01:17:51,560 --> 01:18:00,560
And then one for essentially, maintainership work for no Chanel.

1210
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:03,560
Which is, which is what like dev work or whatever.

1211
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:05,560
Is that Juno code base?

1212
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,560
Juno code base and some upstream stuff.

1213
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:12,560
I think you can see, if you go on, go on the call once up,

1214
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:13,560
find this prop.

1215
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:16,560
I think it's, I think it's either that there's some stuff to do with

1216
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:22,560
wind. So it's either the most recent one was the one before.

1217
01:18:22,560 --> 01:18:25,560
You can find the original in that prop.

1218
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:28,560
There's a link to the original funding stuff.

1219
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:31,560
And there's also a link to the original.

1220
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:36,560
It's like a one or two page document from notional proposing the

1221
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:39,560
dev work they're going to do for the, for the one and a half million

1222
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:40,560
dollars.

1223
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:45,560
So those were then sort of approved when I was working on the

1224
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:46,560
dev work.

1225
01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:49,560
And then approved whenever it was back then.

1226
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:53,560
It was like, yeah, it's like some, some feature development, I

1227
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:56,560
think, come related to the Oracle or not, but there was some

1228
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:59,560
feature development and some, go and read the thing if you're

1229
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:00,560
interested.

1230
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:02,560
It's on chain.

1231
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:03,560
Hey.

1232
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:08,560
So, and then the first chart are those two payments was paid in

1233
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:11,560
September 2022.

1234
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:16,560
And as everybody knows, FTX shot the bed and dev payments, dev

1235
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:19,560
payments from Juno pretty much across the board and almost

1236
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:21,560
everything stopped at that point.

1237
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:25,560
They've been almost no dev payments since with it.

1238
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:29,560
So almost with a little asterisk, but almost every single other

1239
01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:32,560
payment has been caused since that time.

1240
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:38,560
So since then Juno has taken a policy of actually bringing in

1241
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:42,560
individual development contributors and align the long term with

1242
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:43,560
the chain.

1243
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:46,560
People like Reese, who's obviously been very public.

1244
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:48,560
We've had on the podcast.

1245
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:50,560
They've been very, very public, very vocal about ways to be very

1246
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:52,560
transparent with the community.

1247
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:54,560
And there's done some really good work.

1248
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:57,560
And I actually come to me that yeah, I think, you know, also other

1249
01:19:57,560 --> 01:19:59,560
people who have, who are sort of long term aligning with the

1250
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,560
chain are people like Noah and Zeke, who we've also had on the

1251
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:05,560
podcast, talked about their work with Dowdow and increasingly

1252
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:12,560
their additional work in Cosmowism, things like, I forgot the word,

1253
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:15,560
what's the word I'm calling polytone and stuff, you know, these

1254
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:18,560
kind of new primitives for sort of working in a cross-chain way

1255
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:19,560
with Cosmowism.

1256
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:22,560
So it's really, really cool stuff.

1257
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:27,560
So that's kind of like the long term vision for how developers

1258
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:30,560
and stuff are going to work for Juno.

1259
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:35,560
So that doesn't preclude, you know, a bull run coming around

1260
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:38,560
and there being some funding for public good stuff.

1261
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:41,560
And obviously, Confio have been funded in the past by Juno and

1262
01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:43,560
all that kind of stuff.

1263
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:45,560
So, you know, ever say never.

1264
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:49,560
But the reality is in front of a kind of day-to-day perspective,

1265
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:53,560
it's more about kind of acting Juno-dow, essentially acting more

1266
01:20:53,560 --> 01:20:57,560
like an actual regular employer and hiring a few devs.

1267
01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:59,560
That's the plan for the foreseeable future.

1268
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:06,560
So, you know, it means terminating existing agreements with suppliers.

1269
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:10,560
And this prop that's up, or this, I guess, vote not really a prop,

1270
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:12,560
it's a proposal.

1271
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:16,560
So this is for, this is a back payment or a forward payment.

1272
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:19,560
This was the last payment towards obligations that were part

1273
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:20,560
of that original agreement, right?

1274
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:26,560
So the prop is that from the end of the quarter that started

1275
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:33,560
with that September payment to today, that is the calculated sum

1276
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:35,560
that Notional proposed their road.

1277
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:36,560
I gotcha.

1278
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:39,560
And that's the, that's this prop.

1279
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:41,560
Okay, which is pretty significant, right?

1280
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:44,560
It's a bunch of Juno, I think.

1281
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:45,560
It's like 400,000?

1282
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:47,560
400,000, yeah.

1283
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:51,560
So, yeah, or smooth brains like me, that is something that the

1284
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:55,560
sub-dow specifically votes on, not everyone, correct?

1285
01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:59,560
Like this isn't on chain in the sense that everyone can go on Kepler

1286
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:00,560
and vote on it.

1287
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:05,560
This is the five or seven of you in the core one sub-dow can go on.

1288
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:10,560
Yeah, it's a seven, yeah, it's a 50% majority of seven,

1289
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:14,560
or 50% majority of the seven sub-dow members.

1290
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:18,560
Obviously, strange level funded as part of the original agreement

1291
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:23,560
and have been defunded, defunded, but obviously not being funded

1292
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,560
in the same way since they're also affected by this.

1293
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:30,560
So, I believe Jack has recused himself from voting on this.

1294
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:35,560
So, that's range of obligation is done, or there's more to come with that too?

1295
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:37,560
They are not guessed.

1296
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:41,560
They've been, so in an ideal world, we're not going to pay any more money, right?

1297
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:43,560
So, that's the situation.

1298
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:44,560
So, whatever they've been paid, they've been paid.

1299
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:46,560
They're not part of this one, right?

1300
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:47,560
This is just notional.

1301
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:49,560
Whatever they've been paid, they've been paid to date.

1302
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:50,560
Yeah.

1303
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:52,560
There might be money in future.

1304
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:53,560
Who knows?

1305
01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:54,560
Yeah.

1306
01:22:54,560 --> 01:23:00,560
But that agreement has also come to an end, and that's, yeah.

1307
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:05,560
So, the goal is taking in-house, use less outside people,

1308
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:09,560
try to reduce the overall cost to get through this, etc., etc., right?

1309
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:14,560
Like that's kind of the, which is like, every other company in the universe

1310
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:16,560
that's trying to lower costs, right?

1311
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:18,560
It's obviously cheaper to hire than it is to.

1312
01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:21,560
It's cheaper to bring in an infrastructure developer,

1313
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:25,560
and then even if you need to pay some money cash,

1314
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:30,560
we're talking about $5,000 or something, not huge sums for a company.

1315
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:31,560
Yeah, for sure.

1316
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:36,560
And $5,000 is nothing, but you can absorb that kind of price action as a chain much more easily,

1317
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:40,560
and then you can do things like vesting or whatever.

1318
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:41,560
Right.

1319
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:45,560
And then that's a way of having a kind of more long-term alignment,

1320
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:50,560
depending on the tax rules and your jurisdiction, but we won't dwell on that.

1321
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:51,560
So, yeah.

1322
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:54,560
So, that's kind of where that is, and that's where the thinking goes.

1323
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:56,560
So, that's the background to this proposal.

1324
01:23:56,560 --> 01:24:03,560
So, so far it looks like there is 57% no.

1325
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:08,560
So, I think this is a, I have no, the both yet.

1326
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:10,560
Yeah, just refresh.

1327
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:14,560
I've just seen the clock behind you as well.

1328
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:16,560
Yeah, it looks like it's not happening.

1329
01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:20,560
So, it looks like that's going to be a no then.

1330
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:22,560
Which is probably healthy.

1331
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:28,560
I mean, I don't know how much of that is, like, we, there's things that we're done and we're not paying for,

1332
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:32,560
or we, like, I'm part of this shit, but things that are not done and not being paid for,

1333
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:36,560
or it's just part of agreement, but we've paid for what we've paid for,

1334
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:39,560
and now the rest of it we're closing.

1335
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:42,560
So, vendors get fired every fucking day.

1336
01:24:42,560 --> 01:24:46,560
So, I have no issue with changing strategy on how that's going to work.

1337
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:49,560
Yeah, I think there's, I mean, there is a kind of question,

1338
01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:52,560
there's always questions around this stuff with like what's been delivered today,

1339
01:24:52,560 --> 01:24:54,560
and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

1340
01:24:54,560 --> 01:25:01,560
And I think the evident, the, all of this stuff is kind of public.

1341
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:02,560
It's all on GitHub.

1342
01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:03,560
It's all around.

1343
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:06,560
I think people need to kind of like make up their own mind,

1344
01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:13,560
decide whether, decide, you know, who, what the, everybody needs to make up their own mind, man.

1345
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:15,560
That's the same with everything else.

1346
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:17,560
It happens, just so happens, this is a sub-dow,

1347
01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:19,560
but if you would only agree with the sub-dow's decisions,

1348
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:22,560
then they can obviously just change the sub-dow.

1349
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:27,560
So, but it's, these are the kind of difficult or complex decisions

1350
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:32,560
that actually something like a sub-dow is actually really, really good for.

1351
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:36,560
Where maybe on chain governance, it's much,

1352
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:39,560
it becomes a fucking pitchfork situation,

1353
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:41,560
or it has the ability to do it where you have some,

1354
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:44,560
some, I agree, some of these decisions are better in small groups.

1355
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:45,560
Exactly.

1356
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:50,560
Like it can be like, it matters how big your group of nerds is on the internet, right?

1357
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:52,560
That's, that's what we can learn from this.

1358
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:54,560
Sometimes you need a lot of nerds on the internet.

1359
01:25:54,560 --> 01:26:13,560
And sometimes you just need like a really elite select group of...