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video representation of where the chains are. Oh, good. The rugs in.

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent

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validated teams.

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the cosmos brought to you by

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independent. No, no, not those people.

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Welcome to Game of Nodes.

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So obviously slightly different lineup this week.

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I am Bendy, aka Bendy Davis from the chat or Bendy from

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Athern Accelerator.

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Now, if you know that and then Noel tonight is is Rama.

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Yeah, good morning. Good evening. How are we all?

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Yeah, a better version of Noel.

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How are you, Bendy? Cheers, mate.

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We've taken over the show this week.

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We figured that was it 57 episodes or something of that previous rubbish.

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We had to step in and actually provide some content and some information for once.

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So I mean, we are after after two weeks of them failing to articulate

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what Babylon chain was.

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I just don't think they're allowed that podcast anymore.

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I figured we're constantly in the chat and they're always asking us.

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They're like, oh, Bendy, Rama, you know, can you come in?

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Can you? How does this thing work?

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Can you tell like we'll just come in?

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We'll do one show, however long we survive and manage, inform everyone

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and then probably to end it after this one.

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I don't think there's too much of a point kind of having follow up podcast.

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So no.

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This podcast.

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And this is the definitive edition of Game of Nodes, right?

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In which there is no longer any of the original cast.

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It's got to reach that point in its cycle.

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The bear markets had its effect.

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They've all given up.

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Yeah. Yeah, we did consider bringing on guests.

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We thought it would be a bit rude to bring on guests and actually speak to them.

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So maybe, you know, funky, you busy, maybe we could get funky in here.

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I think that could be kind of cool.

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Someone from, you know, not specifically from the cosmos is recent to the cosmos.

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If you want to come in funky, we'll let you shoot your link.

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Get on in here.

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It could be good.

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You know, we control the stream so we can do whatever we want.

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Really? Yeah.

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This is.

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It's really pleasing to me that I mean,

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chat is so much more lively without us in it.

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It's bizarre.

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Yeah, that's a little odd.

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All right, we're going to get should we get funky in here?

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I can get funky in here.

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Yeah, let's get let's get funky in.

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All right, he's coming in.

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Funky's from from Polkadot.

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So we'll get we'll get funky in.

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I think it'd be good.

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Funky probably has some good questions for us.

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So all right, I just sent you a DM on Twitter, funky.

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Get get yourself in here.

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It's kind of like when funky joins, I kind of it's like really hyped, really excited right now.

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Funky's really going to mellow us out.

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If you've listened to Funky's mediation streams, it really chills you out.

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So when he joins, you're in for a shock, I reckon.

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Showing me some more yanks.

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I don't know.

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You guys like my cut, by the way.

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We're just discussing briefly before we went live.

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We've got Juno growth over here in like, you know, a ten dollar shirt,

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you know, a blurred background, so you can't see, you know, the incredible detail.

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My two dollar coffee cup homemade coffee growth, Juno.

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And then Adam Accelerator Dow over here, please, Bendy.

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Yes. So so here you have my living room,

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a few intellectual books in the background, nice sort of branded cross-moss shirt.

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Here I've got, you know, nice cut glass, glass of brandy, ten years old, you know,

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you know, it's just a lot, you know, a lot more comfortable in the world of Adam

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than Juno. I mean, also, like, you know, lots of hair, you know,

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glasses, probably.

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They're just glass, they're not actually needed for real.

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Yeah, this is just this is just vanity.

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There's Rama does need glasses, but can't afford them.

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You know, yes, you can see with my eyes, I can squinty all the time.

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Try to try to read the chat.

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He has seven a.m.

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He has he has the money to do it, but it would tank the price if he bought glasses.

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So he can't actually buy them.

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Who has the voice for radio?

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Is that is that me or you, Bendy?

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Because apparently it's two Aussies at the moment.

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So I don't have a face for TV and a voice for radio.

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But the opposite. That's that's lovely.

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So I gather that they had left something unresolved last week.

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Yes, so there was a there was a unsatisfied

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question, a viewer question, which was

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wanting to know whether it's not surprising at all.

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Probably me, to be honest.

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They wanted to know whether or not a text prop is enforceable to remove Lobo

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when Dow Dow does that in code.

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As this falls into the the Juno world, let's let's say you're taking it first.

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So I don't think I don't see there's any problem with a text prop to

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into signal or to.

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In force, in a sense, a doubt attack action, right?

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So under, you know, I mean, the two sub-dow's in on Juno delegations

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down or growth down, if someone was to put up a text prop or a signaling prop

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on either of those two day I was saying, hey, you know, we want the funds back

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or remove these members or don't proceed with this funding.

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That would be the governance signaling to the Dow to take that action.

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And then the Dow itself can action that on behalf of governance.

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And if the Dow doesn't, then you would put up an actual prop

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to enforce that via a code change.

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That makes sense.

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That makes complete sense to me.

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You know, I think that our guest has joined us, but obviously in traditional

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game of mode fashion, we should probably now ignore funky for the next half an hour or so.

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And then say that we're going to talk to you and then not yet sound welcome funky.

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Yeah.

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So my take on this is that like, I don't think, you know, not everyone knows how to do a code prop.

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People should be able to put up a text based prop.

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It does should listen to them.

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If this was in the atom world and it was someone wanted to get rid of me from the accelerator,

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they would literally have to put up a signaling prop.

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And technically the accelerator could now could just ignore them.

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But then that would then be over.

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Right.

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Like, why would anyone ever support it ever again?

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And you know, sort of.

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Do you know, obviously has more tools and that kind of doubt out tooling is significantly better

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because you've got more of a course.

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But the thing for me is like one of the reasons why when we were forming the accelerator down,

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and we were kind of, you know, we got some some shit for picking the members in advance

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rather than doing elections.

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But one of the reasons we selected the members that we did is that a lot of them have kind of reputation.

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So effectively, the kind of social slashing of that reputation.

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So if you are Cosmo Station, if you are course one, can you really afford to be on the Dow

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that doesn't follow governance?

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Like, so actually, you're basically saying and then you have a kind of inbuilt majority

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into the Dow of four reputable validators that can at any time kind of go, no, no, we will take control of the funds.

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And we will, you know, boot people off and then won't get paid anymore.

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And, you know, so that was the reason for doing it that way.

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But you kind of have to do that when you don't have the kind of recourse that that you know does.

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So I'm kind of comfortable with tax props because I think that what you have to be mindful of is the,

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even if you can't enforce it in code, the kind of construction of your Dow needs to have enough kind of social reputation.

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That not following governance is damaging.

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Otherwise, you can just run off with the funds.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I think the example that we're talking about here is kind of core one, core one sub-Dow, right?

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So, you know, they're primarily the founders and people who have been elected or voted into those positions.

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If they weren't to adhere to governance, then the entire sub-Dow could be dissolved, which is, you know, say, say the, you know,

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Don's prop and I'll answer your question in about 10 minutes as per usual for these podcasts, Schultzie.

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When, if core one wasn't to say it passed and core one, it was like, actually, you know, we really like Lobo.

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We're not going to remove him from the sub-Dow.

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I think there would be two follow-up props.

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There would be probably the follow-up prop to actually enforce it by code to remove Lobo and then a second follow-up prop to actually dissolve and take back all of Core One's funds.

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And both of those should pass, right? Because if the sub-Dow is not going to enforce the will of governance, then the entire sub-Dow should be removed.

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And all of the members should be removed or all of their funds taken away.

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Because if you can't enforce a simple thing like membership removal or change, then how are you going to enforce anything else that governance wants, right?

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And in this instance, it might be a membership removal, but what if it's something like way more important around like a funding or spend prop or something like that?

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Yeah, or a proposal to take a load of money away from an individual or entity and stick it in a locked smart contract.

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Yeah, exactly. On Schultzie's question, do I think that Lobo's removal was a publicity stunt or pure ignorance?

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We've got a whole segment ready for Don, why he's so critically important to the cosmos. So it might be a nice segue into that.

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Don is Don. I think he has his own way of going about things. In recent times, I think it's reasonably evident that there's some form of target towards Juno for various reasons from Don's behalf.

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I think he has good intentions in that there have been actions from various individuals who which aren't in the greatest stead of Juno.

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And his approach is always wrong. And it's always in like the most baitier engaging way it can be.

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But I think he has kind of he has good intentions. He's yeah, his approach is always wrong.

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If Jacob Gadokin didn't know how to code, he would be Don is my thing, which is like, you know, at some level, you know, good intentions, heart gold, whatever, but also just causes merry hell on their way to making the right ones in all the wrong ways.

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Also, I think the two examples from Don, you know, the two times he's gone to on chain governance was no, don't fund close source. I think everyone's in agreement that we shouldn't fund close source from, you know, Juno Community Pool or growth funds, etc.

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So the text the property put up was just like under no circumstances ever do we consider funding close source and we should stop it immediately. It was like a one liner is that you probably need a little bit more detail than that.

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Same thing with kind of the the lobo removal, you know, the wording in it without providing like any form of evidence doesn't.

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It's not a good recipe for a successful proposal. And there's probably reason if you were to go and do some research and provide some actual evidence of a removal, maybe a month or two ago, right, like as soon as the sub down became an official sub down and you know, can be removed by a governance.

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You saw all of the core members started being more visibly present in Juno, and it makes it hard to remove any of them when they're around.

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Yeah, I think that that is all kind of fair. I think, you know, just to go back on the never fund any close source stuff like that's fundamentally like and again, the original inferior game of nodes hosts were actually quite clear that they would fund closed source almost at will.

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But this was because loads of it doesn't fucking matter, because it's not a security risk if your block explorer is closed source, like you can check it and if it works, it works.

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But like the word, you know, do you want usk to be open source? Absolutely you do because otherwise you will lose all your money at some point because someone somewhere will eventually get greedy and they will steal your money and you will never know that that's going to happen.

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And that's why that's why it's like the follow up prop to be like, hey, we don't fund closed source smart contracts that are on main net, right, a little bit more detail, because like we don't care if you want to keep your, you know, your, your super secret source front end close source, go for it, right.

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But smart contracts they will need to be open source. I think funky Jeff headphones because I think there's a bit of feedback. I know we're doing a great job at ignoring you, but we can't ignore the feedback.

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My bad, I don't have headphones, but I will just be sorry. Yeah, I mean, that's better anyway, right then, then like then.

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I'll ignore with you. All right, what's it mean about seven minutes since he joined right probably give him another five or so and see if he's around.

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Then we can consider bringing him in and not speaking to him and you can go oh my God, we've ignored funky. It turns out like, and I don't know how Frey does this as a Brit, because like every British polite bone in my body is desperately going, make sure that funky speaking, make sure

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that funky speaking. But you know, it doesn't work. What I'm really enjoying is that there are genuine listeners in the chat who have no idea what's going on, which is wonderful that there are actually genuine, genuine listeners to the podcast, because I thought it was just

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James from 11 to five right.

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Okay, he's not a genuine listener. No, just just one of the normal gamer notes pills.

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That's great. That's absolutely fine. 11 to five of course who I delegate some of my

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ountain excelerator to pay to because they voted against us. So when youう we will get paid right so, it's quite nice that they're like, I, I do some work, people noticed that would do the work, we've owns and stuff they start shipping it.

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should have a look at it. We've moved on from Don and I did want just to revert to Don because

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we're spending not enough time on the topics to really drag out every detail. So on the plus side

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for Don, when after the filter was happening, he minted one for me because he had whitelist,

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which I in turn then paid forwards because Funky missed the mint completely and I sent him

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after the filter NFT. So in some ways, and I think this is the distinction with Don,

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there's Don versus Marcin and like Marcin who I've spoken to and I had to exchange the

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DMs with is a nice guy who is very intelligent, articulate and respectful. And then there's

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Don who is an absolute bloody nutcase and has this persona and it obviously works at some level.

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But like I saw, I just chose not to engage because I can't, but there was a his recent

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Milady tweet where there's a picture of the girls got a little Nazi thing going on swastika.

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And I'm just like, I had seen Milady were doing some stuff around this and trying and like,

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I don't know why anyone would think it's funny. It's just anti-Semitic. It is just wrong.

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And he must know that at some level being Polish, right? Like you're not going to be from Poland

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and not get all of that. But you still do it anyway. And that's where I kind of just tip

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into this bit where I go, this is like your Gov props, which is like, you are smart enough to do

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this better. He definitely knows, right? I talked to Don daily, right? So consider us kind of good

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friends. I know when like Don, as in, you know, Marcin is doing something. And when it's Don on

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Twitter, you know, targeted going on a rant or, you know, doing his Milady or Romilio thing.

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I've coined a new term, you know, is doing it for the Don 10. So now, you know, every time I go to

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his videos, I put a comment on that, you know, my daily dose of Don 10, which is great.

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When he puts out stuff that's pretty good, I use Don 10. And then when he kind of goes to the

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extremes, I just choose not to engage with it. Yeah, he, you know, if you talk to him in the DMs,

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like he's actually a really nice person, quite intelligent, knows what he's doing,

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brings a lot of value to kind of stargaze. He's like out in the eighth world, you know,

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researching and looking into like, what's happening in the NFT world to bring it back to stargaze.

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So that's really good. But then, yeah, he's, he's kind of attacks and ramps and the stuff with

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Milady, like he just does it because it's part of kind of their crew and they can't be canceled,

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etc. A few times I've like messaged him, you know, he put out like, you know, anti-Semitic or kind

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of more like hate speech type focused content. I'm like, hey, like I get it. But, you know,

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unless you actually want to be canceled in Cosmos, probably like tone it back a little bit.

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When he was tweeting out, you know, a bunch of like, you know, your bloodline will cease to exist,

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mine's faster, it's superior, you know, a bunch of homophobic stuff. And I was like, hey, like,

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I get why you're doing it. But, you know, if you want to be a validator and get support and

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delegations, you probably want to tone it back a bit. Because it's a bit too far. And he was like,

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okay, like, I get it. So I think that that's like what I see sometimes between Jacob and

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particularly like Jack. So Jack's an example of some strange love and Jacob got it into him

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notional, where Jacob is always super blunt, will send 400 tweets and DMs about the same

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bloody thing to make sure that everyone sees it, because it's very important right now.

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And that like, periodically, I'd see Jack just saying to him, the way you're communicating is

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making this worse. And people aren't listening anymore. Like, and it and I think that, you know,

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that's going to be one of the challenges that we have in any of the cosmos communities is that

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like, internet communication isn't very good. And loud, loud voices will carry further.

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But they're not necessarily the most productive voices to be having in any particular conversation.

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And this is sort of that whole thing about DPS. You know, and like, I love a bit of that,

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it's always good fun. But there is also just an element of like, if you actually want to

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get shut stuff done, and you want to be taken seriously, there are better approaches. And I

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think that that sort of, you know, you still have to be kind of public about it. And I think

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that's where like, you know, if we want to get into the snap talk between Accelerator.dow and

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Growth Fund, like, we have done a better job than you guys did on talking about what we're doing,

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partly because I watched Growth Fund say nothing for a long time. And then I've already, oh, yeah,

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there's this growth fund over here. You know, I think like, in the same way, like you guys are

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doing better now, right? Like you've, you've taken some steps to try and improve. Yeah, I think

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there's a few things, right? The Growth Fund was, we kind of came from the TDF, where there was,

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which they had, you know, quite specific and strategic targets, right? They had an amount of

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money, Terra Developer Fund, which was when LUNA collapsed, Juno put together a fund of money

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to try and bring over and support Terra projects on Juno, essentially, which was, I think there was

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a few million in Juno there for them to kind of fund the transition of those teams or projects from

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from LUNA over to Juno. And a bunch of that stuff should have kind of came across pretty

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reasonably seamlessly, right? Like they're using the SDK using Cosmosm. Probably we needed to update

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a bunch of stuff and then deploy it on Juno. That was the intention. The, so a bunch of those members

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kind of moved from TDF onto the Growth Fund. And we added a bunch of people to kind of provide more

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insight and supporting in that process. TDF had a very specific focus and goal. I think Adam

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Accelerator now has the same thing, you know, very specific focus, essentially implementing

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Adam 2.0 in increments, right? In small pieces of work, in small stages. And also, onboarding

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additional kind of projects with a large amount of reserves that helps, right? And very deep

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liquidity within the ecosystem. I think growth, we started off with, we started off on the back

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foot because we migrated from Terra Developer Fund. So there was already quite a lot of negative

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sentiment from that particular MOLTC into the Growth Fund. And we transitioned the funds

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from TDF into the Growth Fund with a number of outstanding payments that had to be paid,

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and not a lot of liquidity. So we were very mindful of how and when and why we communicated

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things and what projects we wanted to fund because of the learnings from the Terra Developer Fund.

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And I think what we did was we ended up kind of shooting ourselves in the foot because

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we were so afraid to kind of communicate or fund things that we ended up essentially doing nothing

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for kind of four or five months. And when I say we did nothing, we didn't communicate.

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And the reason was it's hard to communicate things when you haven't funded anything.

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You know, we were having meetings frequently. We were discussing with a number of projects.

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And you never want your first tweet to be like, hey, we've reviewed five or six projects and we

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rejected all of them. So which is essentially kind of what we were doing, right? For various

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reasons, we didn't go ahead with a number of funding of projects. You know, for terms and

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conditions, you know, couldn't get set amounts of tokens on some of them. Some of the valuations

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some of the valuations we couldn't kind of agree to. So it's super hard to be like, hey,

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we're here, we're doing work. Here's the five projects that we rejected. It's not the greatest

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cons. And I think what we found was we would, in retrospect, we looked at ourselves and were like,

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we're not the Adam accelerator now, you know, we're a bunch of community members working primarily

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part time to do the best we can with not a lot of liquidity. Let's take ourselves a lot less

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seriously and be what Juno is, which is very community focused, you know, very transparent

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and do things how we should have the first time, which is engage, you know, anyone who wants to

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be active through the advisory and the discord group, and then have, you know, a small amount

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of multi-seg signers who actually execute the stuff, but get feedback and input from the wider

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community. So that's where we're heading. We've now got kind of four signers on the multi-seg.

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Hopefully we'll have five in the short term. But then we want to just be able to bring people in

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and be like, hey, you know, we're evaluating this project. Here's the term sheet. We're

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having a meeting. Who can attend? Come in, ask some questions. Do you think this is a good idea?

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How much should we fund it? And we don't really have like a vision other than we know that we want

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to incubate and fund projects. And how we do that with low liquidity is the challenging part,

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because people need money to build. And we don't really have the option of giving them a lot of

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money in the short term with current price action and liquidity. So I think PUTMOS is working on

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an idea at the moment to kind of issue bonds. And we can sell those kinds of bonds OTC. So

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there'll be like a, you know, you'd be able to buy like a Juno-1 or a Juno-2 token, which is essentially

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a smart contract where those tokens are locked in the auto compound. And, you know, one Juno-1

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that you'll be able to buy on the open market, probably for a discount, I'm not sure how that

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would work. And then if you hold that one Juno-1 token, let's say, it's locked for a year. And

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after one year, you can grab that Juno, but it's auto compounded for you for that duration. So

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you'll get, you know, whatever the auto compound value of that Juno will be in a year's time.

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So that'll give us a bunch of USDC that we can then use to fund projects. And hopefully we can get

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a bunch of people who are looking to, who are long-term bullish on Juno, who will buy those

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kind of bonds. And that'll give growth fund liquidity to go and do things. And it won't

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be just for growth, right? Like hopefully Core-1 can do it, maybe Comsdale can do it, etc.

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I mean, I think that's interesting. Obviously, the easy cheap shot is, oh, I'm glad that

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POTMOS is developing it because then it will never happen. Because when has that, I mean,

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I assume it's the pause. The pause just stopped him being able to like actually do the coding he

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needs to do to ship. So he can like tweet and he can promise airdrops, they can't actually like

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ship his taps. I think it's the way he's able to tweet. He has a couple of translators, I think. So

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bark to text. And then the text goes into Telegram or onto the tweet to make it a thing.

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And then I guess that's the thing then, he's using that to then put into chat GPT to do his coding.

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That would make sense. And that, you know, we'll see just how good the AI is because if these

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bonds ship, we know the AI is coming for us. Yes. I mean, I do feel sort of, again, this is the

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bloody English thing where it's really hard to, I think he's probably waited 18 inch minutes.

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Funky, how are you, mate? Yeah, let's bring him in. I had to say, I still couldn't let you have it.

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I needed to steal your thunder there. How are you, mate? No, it's, can you guys hear me okay?

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Like, is it? Perfect. Okay, perfect. So I want to just, I'm great. Thank you so much for even

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having me up here. Honestly, since I started coming to the Cosmos ecosystem and watching this show,

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probably back in like episode 44, somewhere around there, like, I just thought, oh man, someday I

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hope I can be on Game of Notes. Like, I put so much ambition by being here right now.

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With the free post. But either which way, like it just, it's amazing. And just, I know it's going

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to be a great opportunity to have a conversation and learn from you guys. I want to say, because

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you probably saw me laugh inappropriately about Don, when you said the thing about his tweets,

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what I thought you meant Ben, because I've seen a few of them and like, there was one where he

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said something about thanks to Malady and he was like in like a first class like cabin and

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then there was this cost. Yeah, that one. And then the one I saw like, that was like, he bought a

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horse farm or whatever. So I started laughing at that. And then you started talking about all

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this anti-Semitic stuff. And I'm like, wait, wait, no, I'm not laughing at this. I had no idea.

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And then my first, so this has been such an amazing time, like these last like four months,

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just exploring the cosmos, getting to know everybody. And my first introduction to Don

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was watching a cosmos Joe, like he had him on on some live stream and they were rating validators.

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And I just, I must have watched the first, I don't know, 30, 40 minutes. Are they serious? Is

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this a joke? Like I didn't know I had to ask Joe. I'm like, what was that real? And so it's just been

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the characters that are in the ecosystem. You know, it's, it's really interesting. The governance

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stuff that you guys struggle with. There's again, so many similarities between what's happening in

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cosmos and what's happening in polka dot with regard to contentious governance proposals. You

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know, obviously our voting works a little bit differently. But still, like it just thematically,

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so many of the similarities that I see, like I'm on a weekly live stream for, it's called

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attempts at governance. And that's all we talked about. It was just the issues that are happening

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in polka dot governance. And when I watch game of nodes, a large chunk of the show is always about

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contentious props, things that are happening. Like one of the first big ones that I remember

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stumbling into was like the coin fiat. Oh, I think I said that right about that. Confio.

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That's it. Thank you. How they were pulling funding and all this other stuff. And I remember

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tendermint Timmy was like showing some stuff about like just proposals. And that was where I

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started to dig in. And my first time I've read anything on the cosmos forum. So anyhow, I'm

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just excited to be here, obviously, because I can't shut up, but it's really cool to be with

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you guys, especially YouTube. And thank you, Bendy, this morning for showing up for the meditation

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space. So it's really cool to see your VIP. And thank you again for the after the, after the filter.

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There was even, and I want to give a shout out to Pope choose intern right now, because

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something about like his tweets always make me laugh. And there was one about after the filter,

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where it was like the interview from the creators and the guy does kind of look like

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Don before the filter. And there was after the filter was the actual

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anyhow. But yeah, I'm just super thrilled to be here.

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Oh, no, thanks for joining the meditation earlier was was great. It was it was just after my

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lunch. So I was already feeling slightly sleepy. But I was I was trying to I needed to do some

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writing that afternoon. I was putting some scripts together for the day job because I've

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got some filming to do next week. So yeah, I mean, that's because like, Rama, you're in the same boat

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as me, right? You're you do growth fund, and you have your real job, and you have a family.

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And somehow you're meant to just be able to do all of that at once. And most recently, yeah,

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like, turned into a big content creator. So expect like heaps more clickbaity tweets and

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type pitches. So yeah, no, it's super difficult. So I've got I've got a newborn at home, three,

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three, a little bit weeks old. I've got a three year old, my wife. And yeah, normally,

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I'm not at the moment, but normally, I work kind of a quite high pressure corporate job.

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In addition to my crypto stuff. So very busy. And I play sport. So it's always busy kind of training

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a couple of days a week, play a sports weekends, football, proper football, not Australian football.

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There's 17 different sport forms of football in Australia. And we call the one we actually use

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your feet to kick the ball the time soccer. So that makes a lot of sense.

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So that makes a lot of sense. But yes, which is the one that I play. So yeah, it's, it's very

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difficult normally to kind of find time to do all the things. And I do my best. Luckily, I can work

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from home quite a lot. So I can manage to kind of squeeze in some some crypto time in between my

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day job, which is normally around the mornings, which kind of works well, because it's pretty

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quiet for my normal job in the mornings. So I can kind of jump in, catch the Americans and some of

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the English people before I kick off into my normal job. And hey, Joe, and, and then yeah,

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do my do my day job, spend some time with the family and then jump back on and do some more

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crypto and all the Americans and British are starting to wake up. Right. That makes sense.

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I mean, yeah, similar sort of, I made the stupid mistake of so I'd like change jobs

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two months after get to the accelerator now it has a nine months mandate. Two months into that,

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I decided to change jobs from a job that I've been doing for like six years and was very,

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very good at doing it and could just like and could kind of make time within that to do various

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things in, you know, and I've had time for the accelerator now. And then I went and got a new

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job where I know nothing in a new industry and kind of went, Oh, shit, I still need to like

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do all this stuff with the accelerator. And so what I do now is I stay awake until like midnight

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doing my like I'm only meant to do like three hours a day and I definitely do more. But,

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you know, if you said some better future of watching, can I just have more, more money, please?

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But it, you know, because again, get paid on my gig, that's the, that's the better bit.

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Regardless of whether you do any work, it's incredible.

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Well, I mean, like, yeah, well, it turns out that doing more work that I meant to do,

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I still get paid the fucking same pieces the longest week that Game of Notes has ever made it

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until someone someone dropped an F bomb. There we go. We made it to 35 minutes. We're now demonetized,

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but like, you know, rice, this is the longest we've ever gone. What what an achievement for the

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show. And we had a lot and it wasn't the Australian that's that's war. So that's great.

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That's probably another first actually for Game of Notes. It normally is great.

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It's not like, you know, we turn the stream on, it starts and Frey does the intro and then

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immediately Nars fucking hell. And it's like, but he's had two sips out of his coffee and he's like,

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now I need more coffee. And then he just runs off, refills it even though he's had that much.

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So that's normally how the show starts. Yeah. I mean, I did a non tribute earlier where I

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left shop, but that was because what I managed to do is throw my earbud. I've got new earbuds.

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They're not, I don't know. I may not have the thing on the end of them yet. And I literally

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just lashed one across the room. So I had to go and fetch it because I was not sure that I would

385
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be able to carry on otherwise. So there was a there was a question from the chat, which was now

386
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20 minutes ago. Well, I mean, it was only 10 minutes ago. But it was pretty good. Like we're

387
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:10,400
already beating beating the other guys. Just transparency. I think we're gonna get Joe in

388
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:17,120
here because I think that'd be good content. Frequent, frequent listener. And it's our show

389
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:22,560
now. So we can just do whatever the fuck we want. So we'll get Joe in here. It'll probably bring down

390
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:30,000
the IQ substantially. Bring a bit of balance to the chat, I think it'd be good. I guess so funky

391
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,120
from my point of view is playing like Schultz Schultz's role now. And that's so we need to

392
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:42,560
dad Joe's the dad. We're literally like replicated gamer nodes. We've got the British, the Aussie

393
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:48,800
Schultz nice and quiet, very handsome down the bottom. And then we'll bring in dad. Yeah,

394
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:54,080
good vibes. And then we'll bring in dad in the bottom right. And we've done it. So Joe, Twitter

395
00:36:54,080 --> 00:37:06,480
DMs get in here. We'll bring you up on stage. And oh, oh, we got someone most as much. Someone

396
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:15,520
must be out there. I thought this was game of notes. What happened? Good morning. Welcome.

397
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:23,120
There was a note upgrade. Yes, we actually did seem like an upgraded version. Oh, my gosh, we did.

398
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:29,840
We fall to the show. And this is great. I think this is the future. That was a perfect time.

399
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,360
This is a perfect time to bring you into I couldn't believe it.

400
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,760
It's just to bring Joe in and then we got an upgrade. So

401
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,240
all right, well, say I mean, is Joe joining as well? Let's bring him in.

402
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,920
I don't know. I don't know. This is bad at me.

403
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:55,760
Maybe I was gonna try and answer the question from the chat about whether there was a

404
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,800
difference in the mandate for Juno Grey fund versus it's already now just because

405
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,720
that's an actual sensible question. And like, you know, maybe we should answer them or just

406
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:11,840
talk about looks because that's the normal. No, we just ignore or ignore guests, ignore questions,

407
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:17,600
just talk politics. Yeah, excellent. I don't think there's a huge difference. Like,

408
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:27,280
Accelerator Dials mandate is to drive value to atom. So it's super broad. And I will do my regular

409
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:34,320
bit where I say we don't just exist to make 2.0 happen piecemeal. I think it's actually going to

410
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:40,320
be better than that because I think that 2.0 hilariously was not ambitious enough. I think

411
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,040
there were probably bits of it that weren't brilliant. But I think that actually like,

412
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,720
literally as 2.0 was happening, things like mesh were being announced, which weren't part of that

413
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:53,120
kind of 2.0 vision. I think mesh is really exciting. I think that the hub should have had

414
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,840
cosmism at Prop 69. I think it should have it at some point again in the future. You know,

415
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,840
I think that probably this is actually an interesting thing about how you do governance.

416
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:08,640
I think it's much more sensible to say we want permissioned cosmism because we want this and

417
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,120
we can't implement it without it. And then at least people actually can understand the benefit of it

418
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,000
and any potential risks. Although again, like I was super impressed to see Juhann just say,

419
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,360
there's no additional risk to cosmism compared to any other upgrade we do. They all have risk.

420
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:32,000
So that was interesting. But to retest, so Affimix Elator drives value to atom kind of any way that

421
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:37,760
we see fit. And now I end up in the position that Ramu was talking about earlier where I can't talk

422
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,480
about the things that I can't talk about yet, but there are some very exciting ones coming.

423
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,800
And it isn't just us saying no to stuff. So that is why we are better than the Juno grape fund.

424
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,920
Because we can actually afford, you know, because we have, but then this is the thing. So the biggest

425
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,480
difference potentially is, as the question said, that we've actually got the liquidity to do it.

426
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,720
And I was talking to someone the other day and I was saying like, really, you know, there's loads

427
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:08,960
of fud on Twitter for Juno, et cetera, and loads of it's products. But just simply,

428
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:17,120
if Juno could have liquidity, I think that would resolve a lot of people's anxiety and

429
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:23,520
people would feel better about the chain. How you create liquidity without tanking the price and

430
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:29,360
whatever is the challenge, I get that. But I think that liquidity is the one sort of fundamental

431
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,840
that bothers me about Juno. Everything else, I think is absolute fire. You know, I think there

432
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,680
are always going to be shitty projects on there because it's permissionless, right? So I don't

433
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,200
care about that. You know, if you want permissionless, you just accept that there are going to be

434
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,440
the odd dodgy thing. But like, you know, obviously Jake's here, so it's now going to sound like

435
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,000
I'm toting up. But like, if you look at something like a Dowdow, where it's, you know, absolute blue

436
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:59,760
chip project, why wouldn't you be bullish on a chain that had that? So what's that?

437
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:06,080
You look at something like a Reese, that is a blue chip developer, or a Zeke,

438
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:13,360
who literally implemented interchange NFTs. And we've actually added a real working version

439
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,680
of interchange accounts, believe it or not, might actually have interchange accounts that work soon.

440
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:23,920
And that's coming out of the Juno developer community, even with as little of liquidity as we have,

441
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:30,640
we were punching above our weight. So yeah, and I think that that is genuinely impressive. And I

442
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:37,200
think that this is the, you know, it's a funny thing being on the atom. And I'm now at number,

443
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:43,120
of course, obviously, so we've got one polka dot and two Junos. But on the outside of things,

444
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:51,280
I'm Juno in role. I'm Cosmos as an investor. Alright, calm down. Okay. Yeah. I'm an interchange.

445
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:56,240
I have an interchange perspective. Yeah, I mean, no, we I think, and I think in reality, we all do.

446
00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:01,920
I think there's this, this funny bit where like, for the, for three hours a day, my, my thing ends

447
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:08,160
up being like, how do I approve value to atom? Now, actually, the answer a lot of times is cooperation.

448
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:13,600
And I think this is one of the one of the biggest things that is why, and I'd like to throw this

449
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:21,600
funky, like, I think that's why Cosmos is more correct than polka dot is in its sort of approach

450
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:27,600
to interoperability. Because I believe that despite the hub being this kind of originating

451
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:34,000
stack, the fact that it doesn't seek to kind of do parachain auctions and that kind of stuff,

452
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:41,600
if we can get our cooperation, right, I think that will create a better model of interoperability

453
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:47,920
and chains that have their own kind of app chain thesis and stuff that actually works and their

454
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:52,480
their own place in the ecosystem and that kind of cooperation between them. I think that is still

455
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,040
going to be the most economically successful model, even if it doesn't have direct value accrual.

456
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,440
Obviously, polka dot kind of chose a very different approach with a much more direct

457
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:08,160
value accrual for the dot token. I mean, so I think we already have a lot of

458
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,920
cooperation as it is in polka dot, if I'm being completely candid, like we have a lot of the

459
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,920
parachain teams already worked together and one of the things that's nice about polka dot. And

460
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:23,520
again, I'll be the first to admit, I am not the person like the tech person to be giving this

461
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:28,480
kind of spiel, right? I'm like the least technical person on our entire team. The lucky Friday,

462
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:33,520
I'm just some new investor from 2020 who got really interested because I was super bullish on

463
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,520
interoperability. And that's why I invested in Cosmos and everything else too. But now I'm like

464
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,080
deeply investigating it both from a work perspective, because we're starting to get validators on chains

465
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:49,440
because I mean, I've met a lot of like I keep describing Cosmos as the nerdy cousins next door.

466
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:54,640
Like, just like we're all into interoperability and a multi chain future that like, you know,

467
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,120
our teams working with composable, for instance, and building the bridge over to Cosmos and working

468
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:05,280
on the middle layer test net and stuff like that. But I think we already have sort of a very or one

469
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,920
of my boss shorty likes to call it co-opetition, right? Like where it's both cooperative, but

470
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:15,440
it's also competitive in some sense. So we have teams who contribute to the entire ecosystem

471
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,680
because you can build pallets, right? With that modular kind of flexible framework that you have

472
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:25,120
for Polkadot, like one of our teams in Varch gave who is one of the most brilliant devs I've ever

473
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:30,240
met in my life, like he's working on a multi sig palette that basically can be deployed to any

474
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:33,920
chain. It doesn't really matter like what chain you're running, because it's just the palette.

475
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,480
Once it's implemented on your parachain, you're good to go. So we're already seeing a lot of

476
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:44,720
this kind of cooperation being facilitated. It did seem early on as if many of the parachains were

477
00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:49,040
somewhat siloed. And I'll be the first to also admit that there are some like deadweight chains,

478
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,960
there are chains that just seem to launch and then they're not even involved in our community.

479
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:59,600
So I think right now there's probably like 41 total chains. But if I were talking about like

480
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:06,160
how many are actually viable and working together a lot, it's probably more like half 20 maybe.

481
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:11,680
But we do have a lot of cooperation and trying to kind of help other teams because some of them

482
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,560
fit such niche roles like interlay, for instance, with its trustless Bitcoin. I'm a Bitcoin right

483
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:22,160
hard. That's still probably the majority of my portfolio. And so that team likes to because

484
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,800
we're seeing just more and more cooperation happen among the parachain teams. And I think the same

485
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:33,760
thing is starting to emerge too. There's a need, a recognized need among the cosmos as well that

486
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:39,760
we're all better working together. Like if we have shared aims, it's going to produce a better

487
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:45,600
outcome for everybody involved, regardless of what chain you're from or what have you. So that's

488
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:52,880
kind of just my lack of technical take. But we definitely are very cooperative. And Jake,

489
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,920
because I know you've already been on some nights, I'm just going to throw this out there too.

490
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:02,240
Tomorrow, like one big social group that I'm involved with is called Chaos Dow. We are a

491
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:06,800
Dow, of course. And so we're having we're on tomorrow. I'm going to be talking about a lot of

492
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,560
the governance issues. So if you guys are curious about anything that's happening in Polkadot,

493
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,040
it's going to be like 2pm EST. I'll drop the link. I'll send it for you guys if you want to join

494
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:20,000
into the conversation, listen, what have you. But it's three myself and two others who are Dowists.

495
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,800
You know, that was kind of like the highest echelon inside the group. But we're slowly

496
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,560
decentralizing all the power. Like we have regulars, we have friends, there's different

497
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,800
structures, but we're trying to get rid of all of it because we want everybody in the Dow to have

498
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,600
the same exact, really, the Dowist is just like a title at this point, more than anything else.

499
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,920
And it was mostly the kind of core members who were constantly contributing to the point that

500
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,320
you guys were talking about earlier. Some people have more time to contribute. Others don't. Like

501
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:51,200
now that I work for Lucky Friday, I'm full time Web three. I'm just in discourse way too many of them,

502
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:56,880
probably, you know, 12, 14 hours a day. So yeah, anyhow, I'm going off on a tangent. But yeah,

503
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:05,040
I think we're just just to kind of jump in on, oh God, the skeptic he's in before before he speaks.

504
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:09,280
Oh, yes, it's going to ignore him for a few minutes, because I know he's a big fan of

505
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:16,160
of collaboration and cooperation. So just on your point around polka dot, I've kind of had like the

506
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:22,000
same vibe for cosmos for, I don't know, maybe a few months now. And I'm going to name like a few

507
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:28,320
chains here, just as some examples, but around the whole collaboration thing, right? I think a

508
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:37,120
successful Juno is it's important for the wider ecosystem. I think you need a space that is strong

509
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:43,840
and permissionless to incubate and build devs, right? Without that, the cosmos ecosystem, you're

510
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:50,960
not going to have this the opportunity for a bunch of devs who are, you know, they're either in school

511
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,200
or just out of school, who've got some skills and they want to come in and they want to throw up a

512
00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:00,800
random contract on the chain, and then start building some form of app, right? Juno should be

513
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:06,000
that place. I don't think neutron is. I think neutron has got a very specific purpose in the

514
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:12,080
atom economic zone or, you know, however you want to call it. And it's there to be like the liquidity

515
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:19,280
hub. Salami. Yeah, whatever we're calling it this week. I don't think neutron's that place. I think,

516
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:24,480
you know, there's two options that can be like the, I'm going to say it the Australian way, the

517
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:31,760
Huawei chain or Juno, right? As much, I think who needs to like stick to being a meme, which they're

518
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,000
doing a pretty good job of, but like, I think Juno is like the permissionless deploy whatever you

519
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,640
want. Know that there's going to be ship projects, there's going to be rugs. But if there's good

520
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:45,040
developers and we can identify them from some of the work that the fleet, they should get, you know,

521
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:50,240
some support and give them small amounts of Juno to continue them and incentivize and reward them

522
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:55,200
to keep building. So for the wider ecosystem, I think Juno is important and everyone kind of

523
00:48:55,200 --> 00:49:00,560
shits on it. But take away Juno and then you take away this permissionless place for developers to

524
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:06,000
launch on and you end up with like subpar products that are trying to launch on permissioned

525
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:10,800
cosmism chains. And they just get shut down by like grants projects or they don't quite fit the

526
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:17,280
app chain, the specific app chain vision. And they go, Oh, well, where am I going to deploy my thing

527
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,680
that I'm really invested in personally that I really like? Oh, there's no permissionless chain

528
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,920
for me to do that on. All right, well, I'm going to go somewhere else that will let me do that.

529
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,800
And is that like Solana or is that polka dot or is it, you know, some Binance smart chain?

530
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:39,280
We need that space and chains like, you know, osmosis and stargaze, etc, who have very good vision.

531
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:46,400
We need to like stop this rebuilding of infrastructure and focus on what our app chain

532
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:52,320
is for, right? Like stargaze, in his example, it is the premier NFT chain in the ecosystem.

533
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:58,560
Omniflix is coming for that title, I think in terms of a digital media chain.

534
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:05,120
They've got quite a nice marketplace. There are amazing features on ETH that should be on stargaze

535
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:10,480
now, right? They shouldn't be rebuilding like Dowdow. They shouldn't be rebuilding osmosis as a

536
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:17,120
dex. We should be putting outposts on on stargaze for both of those products. And stargaze should

537
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:24,320
be releasing NFT staking, NFT pools, improving their marketplace and making it so it's the best

538
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:29,920
NFT onboarding and user experience in the ecosystem and then use other

539
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:36,880
chain products to enhance that and like focus on what you're really good at and make it better.

540
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:42,720
That's the app chain thesis, right? Like you do like as Stride would say, you do one thing,

541
00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:48,960
do it well. Like you just, you do like, and I think there is an entirely reasonable space that

542
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:54,720
says you can have a permissionless chain that, oh, Joe's quit. He hates the app chain thesis.

543
00:50:54,720 --> 00:51:00,080
He can't be doing with it. It's all that cooperation. He can't bear it. But basically,

544
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:05,760
like my thing, when I see some of these things where it's like, oh, we need one of what they've

545
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:12,960
got. I'm kind of like, do we? Because that's not the point. I think the problem is though, like

546
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:19,360
IBC has just not been up to the task where we've had a version of interchange accounts. Okay.

547
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,200
And it's just not usable with smart contracts. You literally cannot use it with smart contracts.

548
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:29,600
We've had, you know, there's, there's also other limitations on the interchange accounts as well.

549
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:36,000
You don't have callbacks. Like, you know, and so while we've been talking this talk of interchange

550
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:41,920
composability for a while, we've yet to see that happen in reality. And well, a bunch of people

551
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,920
have been working on things like interchange queries. There's like five different implementations,

552
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,640
which one is the canonical one, which is standardized. Look at a neutron's version of

553
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,400
ICA. They built it so that they have their own custom module and then no one else can really

554
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,920
use it because they're, they're building it so that they're the only ones that can like write

555
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:03,440
these like interchange kind of smart contracts. Now we've done the exact opposite. Anyone can use

556
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:09,840
poly tone if they have Cosmosm and there's no extra features required. You got Cosmosm,

557
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:15,680
you can use poly tone and you can do anything you can do on another chain. And that's how it

558
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,800
should have been. And I think now that we are getting to the point where we have these tools,

559
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:24,240
we can get more chance that are like strad that are more focused on doing one thing and exposing

560
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:32,800
that composability in the interchange. Yeah. And then, and then I think that like how you choose

561
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:40,240
to structure your kind of interchange security stuff, whether that is through like the linear kind

562
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:48,640
of provider consumer model of ICS-D1 or whether it ends up in, I almost don't see the point of two,

563
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:55,920
like let's skip to three and mesh. Like, you know, I can see both of those having practical uses and

564
00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:01,680
I can see ways that chains would want to have that kind of political alignment with each other.

565
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,600
And I think like that's one of the things for me, which is like, if Juno is going to be an incubator,

566
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:10,000
one of the really interesting things becomes like, okay, either you're incubating the dev

567
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:14,480
talent so they learn a lot of stuff and then they go and spin up a new project and it becomes a

568
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,360
standalone thing or they take their thing and it, you know, this vision often was, which is you have

569
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:25,280
your DAP and then it becomes its own softened chain. Whether there is any route in which Juno can

570
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:30,080
can earn back from that, that's where it gets interesting. And that's where like something

571
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:36,240
like a, that's an accelerator or a Juno, but like, in our case, that's not how we work with the

572
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:42,000
accelerator. We're not taking equity in anything. So if they grow, that's just meant to grow the

573
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:46,160
pie. There's no direct benefit, but then we're not anticipating people skinning out. When I think

574
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:52,080
for Juno, you probably want to be like cool, like Juno should own a portion of your chain.

575
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:58,000
Like the Juno community pool should be the owners of that. And, you know, that kind of,

576
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,640
you know, I think that that gives you the opportunity to kind of work.

577
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:09,520
But you know, this is why, you know, mesh is so important to us. And why I'm spending a significant

578
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:17,200
amount of time on mesh and why we have some of our best people, including like Zeke and Joseph,

579
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:22,480
who works on Swift protocol, we have them contributing to mesh because this is vital to

580
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:28,240
make this whole work because that's another lever that you can do to foster economic alignment.

581
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:32,800
And I think that, you know, another great thing about mesh and why we want Cosmos on the hub is

582
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:38,560
we need to just do a better job of aligning the ecosystem as a whole and kind of just restoring

583
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:44,960
the problem with like replicated security is that it actually is kind of anti-cosmos in a sense that

584
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:50,560
it gets away from, it gets just back to the idea of another one chain to rule them all rather than

585
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:56,880
this like initial like internet of blockchain kind of a chain. Yeah, I disagree slightly.

586
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:02,800
I think that it works better for a chain. If you are spinning up a chain that doesn't have a token

587
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:08,080
of its own, I think you can also do that with mesh. Of course you could do it with mesh,

588
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:12,640
but I think there is, I can understand why if you're going for a tokenless chain, you might just

589
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,960
think I would like... And then you don't have to like subsidize your validators with the ICF and

590
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:22,960
you know, things like that. Well, quite. Well, you know what, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna,

591
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,800
Bendy, I'm really glad you're here. I promise I'm not gonna make this spicy. I mean, like, no,

592
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:32,160
well, no, I think it should be spicy. I think... But the thing is, this is so frustrating because

593
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:36,160
I can't say the thing that I want to say that I think you know that I'm not allowed to say.

594
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,400
I'm not gonna say the thing either. And... Yeah, but it's really annoying. So like,

595
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,240
we're very much in agreement, but I will also disagree with Jake because I think that there is

596
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:48,880
a space for that product. I don't think that everything should do it. I don't think that...

597
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:54,880
And like one of the things, because my background is non-technical, I am an arts student. I was...

598
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,520
It's my thing about changing the language of how we refer to those arrangements because I think

599
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:04,720
that it's... Is it about security? Is it bollocks? None of this is about security. This is about

600
00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:11,040
relationships. Oh, no. I think if we spent concerted after online, we could like take down Neutron and

601
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:18,160
halt it on day one. Yeah, but... No, I think economic security is still important, but

602
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:23,440
there's like security is super holistic, right? Okay. What these things are really good for?

603
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:28,480
And I think maybe security is the wrong term. It's alignment between communities. Like that

604
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:35,440
economic alignment is almost... To me, that's almost the more important element. It's like

605
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:40,320
the partner chances as you guys are calling now, what's the benefit of that? The benefit of that

606
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,800
is the economic relationships that come with that. The way... The same thing with mesh, where it's

607
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:49,760
like you're just building these deeper ties between these communities. Yeah. The way I kind of see it

608
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:56,080
is an example and just tell me I'm completely wrong here is... So a chain like Osmosis, right,

609
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:01,840
where they deploy very specific apps that enhance and improve the Osmosis chain.

610
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:08,080
ICS or replicated security is the same thing for the hub, right? You're deploying very specific

611
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:15,440
chains that use the economic security to both benefit both chains, right? So Neutron is an

612
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,680
example. It's going to be like the liquidity hub. You're going to have liquid staking. You're going

613
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:26,960
to have deep liquidity for Adam on Neutron with the intention of massively increase transaction

614
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:34,960
volume, which will then enhance the hub via transaction fees, right? Stride going there as

615
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:41,200
well. The same thing. I don't think DYDX is going to be a consumer chain, but if it was,

616
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,600
like massive benefits for Adam because you've got all this huge amounts of liquidity and

617
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:50,480
transaction volume via leverage trades that benefits the hub, right? The intention is the

618
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:58,720
same thing, right? You're deploying very specific chains via replicated security to use the economic

619
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:04,000
security of the hub and then you're paying back via liquidity and transaction volume.

620
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:10,800
I think there is a future model where that is effectively how horizontal scaling works,

621
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:17,840
where actually, or like you take Osmosis, which is an actual app chain and has an actual kind of

622
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:23,600
utility in it, it's a DEX. If you just basically go, okay, there'd be a whole load of Osmosis

623
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:30,880
DeFi primitives that are technically on different chains, but they talk to each other over IBC.

624
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:36,320
They all use the same tokens and they all pay the same validator set, but they are different chains.

625
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:46,880
That's horizontal scaling. That to me is why ICS-V1 has utility. You don't need it today

626
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:53,120
because we're not doing the volume that would require that, but it gives us the ability to get

627
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:59,520
there in the future. I think that then things like Mesh is how you actually say that Osmosis has an

628
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:04,480
actual relationship with the Cosmos Hub, it has a relationship with Juno, it has a relationship

629
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:10,480
with Stargaze, and then it starts to deepen and strengthen those. I think that those are the

630
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:19,440
really ICS-V1, I think, is a scaling solution. I think Mesh is a political economic alignment

631
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,800
solution. I don't think that either are security solution.

632
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,640
I remember the Mesh thing. This is really interesting because at ETH Denver, when I was at

633
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,880
the shared security summit, the first time I met, Jake, for instance, Sonny was doing a presentation

634
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:35,760
on Mesh. As soon as you said the thing about the political alignment, I remember that first

635
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:42,320
part of his presentation where he was talking about the axes and how, yeah, so this is really,

636
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,920
I'm sorry, if I'm just sitting here nodding, it's because I find all this very fascinating.

637
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,960
Is that, do you see a future in which both of them are going to happen, where you're going to

638
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,480
continue to get more people coming on and the consumer chains to develop?

639
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:06,480
In, yeah, give it six months. Okay. I can't see a world in which the hub is not

640
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:14,640
both doing ICS-V1, which we'll be doing in a few days, and Mesh. If that fails to happen,

641
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:21,280
it is an absolute travesty of governments. I don't think that, I'm agreeing here, by the way,

642
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:28,960
when I say I don't think, ICS-V1, it's not going to scale. I don't think you can do more than

643
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:35,520
five chains. The operational expenditure, both in resourcing, manpower and dollars,

644
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,320
it can't scale, I don't think, more than five at most, the very most.

645
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:44,880
I think that's why I think it works as a stable solution, because you're already invested in a

646
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:48,800
chain that wants to grow. I think that's where it could go to bigger, but yeah, carry on.

647
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:54,560
Yeah, I'm not a validator, so I don't pretend to know the effort involved in running multiple

648
01:00:54,560 --> 01:01:00,400
nodes and what that involves or entails in ICS. I have spoken to a number of validators who were

649
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:07,360
in the test nets for ICS, and they're saying substantial amounts of effort to manage the nodes

650
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:13,520
and spinning up a new node for every chain. At our current transaction volume for Adam,

651
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:19,120
it's just not scalable financially for the bottom half, bottom third, definitely.

652
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:25,440
If you have a dependency or a requirement to run a node for a chain, and if you don't run it,

653
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:32,480
you get slashed on Adam, that solution is bad for, yeah, so there's a lot of technical detail.

654
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:38,400
I'm not going to go down it too much and shit on the solution, because I think it's interesting,

655
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:44,800
and it's the first version of the future. Technical detail. We don't cover technical

656
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,920
detail, we just do spicy taint. So just for funky's benefit, essentially,

657
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:55,280
when you spin up a new chain via replicated security, every validator in the set has to

658
01:01:55,280 --> 01:02:00,240
run that consumer chain. So we're going to have Neutron very soon, Stride will be next.

659
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:06,640
Say I'm in the bottom five validators, I'm one of those bottom five. I'm already losing money

660
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:11,840
by running Neutron, it's not net positive for me to validate that chain, but I have to do it.

661
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:18,960
Stride then comes along and I say, go ahead, Bendy. You don't have to do it, they have the soft

662
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:27,360
opt out. So everyone in the Neutron implemented it on their side. So basically, everyone under a

663
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:32,640
certain percentage. This is kind of like version 4. Yeah, because version 2 is utterly pointless.

664
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:39,760
Version 2 is never a good idea. But we have because you've got a soft opt out.

665
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:46,400
Well, what the opt out basically says is, it says, if you're below a certain rank of

666
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,400
validated by voting power, you don't get slashed. So you don't have to go on the road.

667
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:51,760
Ah, you don't get slashed. Right.

668
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:58,640
You don't get slashed, but you still get the rewards. So actually, so there are some like

669
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:05,200
very at the moment, Neutron specific code that they put in because they're like, okay, why isn't

670
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:10,000
this publicly like published and communicated because I haven't seen people talk about it.

671
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:19,280
It's on the forum. Like, yeah, I know. Yeah, but I knew. Yeah, okay. Maybe I think I think it's not,

672
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,960
I think I don't think it's well enough as ever. It should be.

673
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:29,280
All the people in Plasma aren't doing it aren't doing a good marketing job. That's me, isn't it?

674
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,080
Yep. Yep. So it should outmate.

675
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:34,640
And it'd be sad to not be paid anymore.

676
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:40,080
So Stride comes along and then Stride doesn't implement. There you go. James only found out

677
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:42,960
today. Nice. So Stride comes along.

678
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:43,760
It should be one of the fucking props.

679
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:51,360
Yeah. Well, I sold my item at $15. So I'll buy it back in at $14.99 and we'll go for it.

680
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:54,000
Have you got your new ledger yet?

681
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:58,400
My new ledger? No, I don't have a new one yet. The stacks.

682
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,040
Because I remembered you'd kind of got to a point where you'd have to unsteak everything.

683
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:04,240
No, no, I wasn't using a ledger. I am now.

684
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:15,280
I want to get the new stacks. Anyway, so if you don't run Stride or say you have downtime

685
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:20,400
on any of the consumer chains, you actually get slashed on your Atom validator.

686
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:26,640
So you lose Atoms and your delegators lose Atoms unless Stride implements the same thing,

687
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:32,240
no slashing. But without being slashed, then there's no deterrent for bad actors. So it's

688
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:38,640
almost, it's kind of dangerous in a sense being able to opt out because for a small subset of

689
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:43,680
validators, I'm sure it's fine. But the whole intention is that you need to do the right things

690
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,120
on the consumer chains. And if you don't, then you get slashed on the provider chain.

691
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:55,840
Okay. How often does slashing actually happen?

692
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:03,600
On the hub very rarely. Because it's a very bad publicity. It's very bad publicity to get slashed

693
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:09,120
on the biggest chain. We did see it with, what was the V8 upgrade, I think it was. There was

694
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:15,120
a number that were very, very close to getting slashed. And I think a couple did. It was very

695
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:20,480
scary. It was a very badly run upgrade, like, which was partly because I hadn't been an upgrade

696
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:26,400
for a long time. A year and a half, I think it was. Turns out that the hub hasn't been great at

697
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:32,000
shipping, which may also be a reason why having permission to cause a Muslim would be a good

698
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:37,360
idea because then you can iterate things quicker. Who would have thought? There is a question here

699
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:43,280
from Shorty that I want to get to. What is polytone or what's polytone? I can probably explain

700
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:48,880
this. I would like to take this opportunity, Mr. Maximus. The hosts are up the top. The guests

701
01:05:48,880 --> 01:06:00,800
are down the bottom. Okay, please. So, polytone. Imagine just having the brass neck to tell Jake

702
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:09,280
that he's not allowed to explain polytone. That's how the show is ran. I learned.

703
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:14,400
You might do a better job than me. Maybe. This is the game of thrones. I know how it works here.

704
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:25,760
So, essentially, polytone is my understanding is it wraps interchain accounts and interchain queries

705
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:33,200
into a single, Rama's variation, into a single kind of protocol, I guess you could call it,

706
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:40,640
where we can deploy the contracts on either chain. So, let's use Stargaze and Juno as this example.

707
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:46,720
We deployed on both sides and what it enables both of those chains to do is any contract to

708
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:58,400
contract execution or query. So, an example could be as a Dow on Juno, I can purchase an NFT or

709
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:04,800
list an NFT on the Stargaze marketplace. We can do another example is, let's say, the

710
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:10,400
the Wah Wah chain because I like to trigger people. If we had polytone deployed on both of those,

711
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:21,680
I could have a Dow on Juno and have my Dow interact with anything on Hua. So, let's use the Raccoon

712
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:26,320
team as an example. They've got a marketplace over on that chain, the Emporium marketplace.

713
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:36,160
Maybe they have a Dev Dow on Juno. They set their royalties contract address to the interchain account

714
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:43,040
of their Dow on Juno and whenever someone makes a purchase of an NFT, the royalties of that go to

715
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:48,560
their Juno Dow Treasury and then they can just pull those tokens into that, like pull it across

716
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:53,760
via interchain queries or interchain accounts into Juno. You could do way more than that, right?

717
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:59,840
You can have like contract to contract executions. So, when someone does a swap on a DEX on Osmosis,

718
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:07,200
you can execute a contract on Juno. So, really, really powerful stuff. If you start to think

719
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:12,240
about arbitrage bots and the opportunities that you can have using interchain accounts and

720
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:18,560
interchain queries, cross-chain with arbitrage bots like the MIGALOO team, they're going to be

721
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:24,000
sitting there like absolutely licking their lips at this going, okay, let's get this deployed ASAP

722
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:29,760
and then the arbitrage bot that they use, anytime there's a transaction across any of the chains

723
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:35,680
that have polytone, they can query those chains and then automatically arbitrage across multiple

724
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:43,680
DEXes and have the ARB of that swap go back into their whale stakers and distribute those rewards

725
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:50,880
to their whale stakers as some examples. And the reason for that is, is interchain queries and

726
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:55,040
interchain accounts, they're like, my understanding is they're two separate modules that use two

727
01:08:55,040 --> 01:09:00,640
different channels. By wrapping them up into one single protocol, you can now actually do like

728
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:06,560
callbacks, you can do queries, you can do, have interchain accounts across chain and have proper

729
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:11,760
interoperability, which is how it should be. How would you rate Romas' answer to explaining

730
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:20,800
polytone? I think it was mostly right. I might have a few nitpicks, but it's basically any

731
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:25,440
account, not just smart contracts, but including smart contracts. That's a big improvement over

732
01:09:25,440 --> 01:09:29,760
interchain accounts, which only worked with, well, it didn't work with smart contracts, which is kind

733
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:37,360
of a limiting factor. But yeah, I mostly got it right. It also is really just an implementation of

734
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:44,080
interchain accounts and interchain queries in Cosmalsum. And it has, I think, a lot nicer of

735
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:52,400
an API. It can actually wrap those modules when they're ready, but they're not quite ready yet.

736
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:58,080
We don't have a default interchain query module that's used by everyone. We don't have a real

737
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:03,120
working version of interchain accounts with callbacks and smart contracts support. And I'm not

738
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:09,120
about to wait another six months before we can start actually developing real cross-chain protocols

739
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:14,560
and real cross-chain smart contracts. The kinds of things that you can build with polytone, and

740
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:20,160
again, polytone is not even geo-specific. Any Cosmalsum chain can use this. So Neutron can use

741
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:28,480
this. Osmosis can use this. Wawa can use this. Composable. The great thing about this is it

742
01:10:28,480 --> 01:10:35,200
is designed, even if you don't use the Cosmos SDK, because I'm a Cosmalsum maximalist and Rust

743
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:42,400
maximalist, not a go or Cosmos SDK maximalist, though I still appreciate them. But we have a

744
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:48,320
bunch of new people that are joining. And I think the future of IBC protocols is going to move a

745
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:52,800
lot faster than what it's been moving up to this point. In many ways, I think it has to you, or

746
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:57,120
we are going to face competition from the outside ecosystem that are also competing on the

747
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:01,680
interoperability, interchange narrative. But I'm really excited because you could actually,

748
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:06,080
literally with polytone, build an interchange DeFi protocol, like a router, for example,

749
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:11,680
where you got a DEX on Neutron, you got Osmosis, you've got all the other, like,

750
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:16,640
injective and all these other ones. If they're connected via polytone, you could have a contract

751
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:21,760
that has accounts on all these different chains. And using price oracles, you could basically just

752
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:27,920
like always route to the best price. So if the best price for swapping to Adam is on Neutron,

753
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:30,720
route there. If it's on Osmosis, route there. If it's on injective, route there.

754
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:37,440
Imagine if there was a wallet that allowed you to do swaps in the wallet that would use such a

755
01:11:37,440 --> 01:11:41,600
protocol. Yeah, exactly. That'd be really sick. You should fund that project.

756
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:48,480
It's actually probably, we should get polytone on the hub because, you know, I think it'd be

757
01:11:48,480 --> 01:11:54,000
really, if there was Cosmos on the hub, then that potentially could be a thing that could be

758
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,120
deployed on the hub and that would drive that leaves that and then that would be something

759
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:01,840
that the atom accelerator should fund. What a fucking world. Now, we're just sitting in an

760
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:08,000
interesting conversation where an hour or 12 minutes is polytone a module. No, it's actually

761
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:13,120
just a smart contract, a Cosmos and smart contract. And that's the great thing about this as well,

762
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:19,360
is that with interchange queries or interchange accounts, everyone has to do a hard software

763
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:24,400
upgrade. Everyone's using slightly different versions of the Cosmos SDK. And so then they

764
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:28,960
have to figure that out. If they're on 45 and it only supports 47, they now have to upgrade

765
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:34,160
their entire chain in order to use the right thing. Everyone just deploys the contracts.

766
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:40,000
You could even be in polka dot land on composable, deploy these contracts and you're in business.

767
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:44,320
And that's, I think the future of IBC protocols. They should be that simple. We should be able

768
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:49,120
to roll them out quicker. And that's another reason why we have to get Cosmos on the hub

769
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:53,040
is because we don't want the hub to always be lagging behind. We don't always want to have

770
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:57,840
to wait for a go implementation because we know how much longer that takes. When there is a protocol

771
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:04,480
that's ready, for example, interchange NFTs, I swear would have been ready like four or five

772
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:10,640
months ago if it wasn't for waiting for the Cosmos SDK implementation and the Cosmos SDK testing.

773
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:17,440
This is a really interesting conversation. But we are an hour and 14 minutes in and we

774
01:13:17,440 --> 01:13:23,760
haven't actually reached the first item on the spreadsheet. Classic game of nodes.

775
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:30,160
And so I just want to interrupt the interesting conversation to actually do drill tweet of the

776
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:40,080
week because that's an integral feature that we can't avoid. So here it is. I remark,

777
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:46,720
mummies are made out of diapers at the Egypt Museum. Some cops jump out of sarcophagus

778
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:52,480
and begin humping me as I roll on the floor. There we go. Drill tweet of the week.

779
01:13:54,240 --> 01:14:00,000
Amazing. I'm so glad we're interested. It was very important that the whole thing was stopped

780
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:02,800
for that because otherwise we're at the point of getting the nodes.

781
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:07,840
Yeah. A nice room reset. And where do we go from here?

782
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:14,080
I just want to say this real quick. That was so enlightening for me because there's so much I

783
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:20,240
still don't know. But for instance, the composable stuff with the bridge, they had to build this

784
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:24,160
middle layer test net because they said some people aren't on like, and they were saying,

785
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:27,840
he was saying like specific, this is from the composable team, Jafar, he was saying something

786
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:33,680
like, oh, well, some chains are running for whatever, four, seven, and then there's gonna wait

787
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:38,640
for eight or something. Yeah. He just apparently is four, eight, the point at which everybody's

788
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:44,960
going to have Cosmos. No, no, it's just another Cosmos. Maybe I can break this down a little bit

789
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:51,360
funky. So there's multiple areas within Cosmos. So the main thing that everyone kind of uses is the

790
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:56,800
SDK. Okay, well, let's take a step back. Everyone uses, you know, the BFT mechanism,

791
01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:00,720
tend to been out the door, not no one really uses it anymore. We now have Comet BFT.

792
01:15:01,440 --> 01:15:07,120
Then we have the Cosmos SDK. Then we have IBC. Okay, now there's two versions of IBC to,

793
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:13,360
I believe now there's like a Rust version and a Go version. Okay, the SDK, everyone uses, and

794
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:17,520
there's multiple versions of that. That's generally upgraded and shipped via the hub,

795
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:23,760
the hub teams, essentially, believe it now, it's mainly informal and binary who are building that

796
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:31,440
there's, you know, 43, 45, 46, 47, 48. Don't think anyone's using 46 tried to implement groups module.

797
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:36,800
People are using 46 actually. We are. We're not using it. But

798
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:40,960
there are people, okay, I think some people are using 46 complicated people should.

799
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:49,120
4748, I believe with, and then so that's the kind of core stack. Then we have

800
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:55,760
Cosmos, which is essentially another module that you can chuck on, enable smart contracting,

801
01:15:55,760 --> 01:16:02,080
et cetera. A lot of chains are using Cosmos. The hub's not with 48. I'm not sure technically

802
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:08,880
what's involved there. I think it's mainly around the IBC stuff to enable the kind of

803
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:16,800
dot integration. But you have to be there. So what we want to get to is, and what Juno's focus is,

804
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:24,720
is using a lot more of Cosmos and modules, sorry, smart contracts in the core chain to enable faster

805
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:30,880
development and iteration and relying less on the SDK, because it can be very slow to develop

806
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:35,920
for good reasons, right? Like it needs to be very secure, et cetera. But using upgrading the SDK when

807
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:43,120
you want to, but then having CW modules, Cosmos modules to use in things like core governance.

808
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:48,320
So then you can iterate and build upon them and be a lot faster in that development. And then

809
01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:53,680
other chains that use Cosmos may go down that path to, say Juno develops an incredible kind of

810
01:16:53,680 --> 01:17:00,080
governance module with Cosmos. Maybe Osmosis and Stargaze or Migaloo want to use that. And then

811
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:05,680
they can just drop the Xgov module and not use it. And then chains that want to continue to use it

812
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:12,400
can, or they can take the Cosmos and Gov contracts and improve them, iterate on them, however,

813
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:20,080
suits their particular chain. And I think there's also the different virtual machines, right? So,

814
01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:27,280
you know, if you want to have a UVM because you want to try and connect to Ethereum and you want

815
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:32,720
to talk to Liddy, then you can do that. But I think that this is the whole thing for me, which is

816
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:39,600
there is this kind of philosophical question of what makes a chain a Cosmos chain. And I think at

817
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:44,960
one point the answer probably was the Cosmos SDK. And I think the answer is very quickly becoming,

818
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:52,720
and it probably already is, it's got IBC enabled. So Binance Smart Chain is not a Cosmos chain.

819
01:17:53,360 --> 01:18:01,520
Matic is not a Cosmos chain. Core chain, not a, like, yeah, enable IBC, come join the Cosmos.

820
01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:06,560
That's when you'll be a Cosmos chain. Because that's when you can, like, and then things like

821
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:13,760
Polytone enable you to play. And that's when the whole world of interchain. And this is like,

822
01:18:14,480 --> 01:18:23,440
so the reason that I got into Cosmos was because I read, when I was like, I am a Johnny come lately,

823
01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:27,840
know about Bitcoin Frasier, never bothered, just thought it was basically going to be, you know,

824
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:35,120
was criminals on the dark web and made a mistake. And then, you know, the last full run, friends of

825
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:40,320
mine were like, you know, this shit's kicking off, you need to actually pay attention. And I was like,

826
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:45,600
oh, you know what, it's lasted long enough, it probably is legit. And then very quickly, I was

827
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:52,320
like, I do not like this idea that something's going to win, because nothing ever has in the history of

828
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:58,480
like, humanity, there isn't like, things have standardized, but nothing has ever just been

829
01:18:58,480 --> 01:19:03,520
the one thing. Or if it was, it was briefly, and then it got replaced by the next one thing.

830
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:09,200
So I looked at this and I was trying to, when I was trying to explain to my parents what on earth

831
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:14,880
I was investing money in crypto for, I was like, this is the railway. This is actually what this is.

832
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:19,360
And at the moment, people have their different stations that they've built. But what Cosmos is,

833
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:24,960
is connectivity, like the railway, if you can physically imagine that it's going to connect

834
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:29,520
all these different things and stuff's going to happen. And that's why I believe in Cosmos,

835
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:34,800
because you can see these models of connectivity have worked over all of human history. And there

836
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:39,600
is no reason to believe that wouldn't it work over the internet in the same way as it worked in

837
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:46,640
physical infrastructure. And so that again, becomes why when people say, you know, we are meant to

838
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:50,240
drive value to atom. And it is very difficult because you have these things where you go,

839
01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:56,400
there's an intangible benefit to stronger, better, quicker trade routes. I cannot measure what the

840
01:19:56,400 --> 01:20:03,200
impact will be, but I know it is net positive. I do not know if it will make atom the Bitcoin of

841
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:08,560
the future, or if atom will just fade into oblivion. But it's sort of irrelevant because what we

842
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:14,800
should all be trying to do is make that stronger, more connected Cosmos. And that's when I kind of,

843
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:20,160
you know, that's what I'm sort of in this for, you know, we say we're in it for the tech and like

844
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:24,320
tunics, or you know, you're in it for the tech, you're in it for the money, like, don't get me wrong,

845
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:30,080
I like making some money. That's nice. But genuinely, this is exciting because I think it is the

846
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:37,680
absolute future of where human interconnectivity is going. And that's the benefit for atom, right?

847
01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:42,160
That I think a lot of people forget is like, it all started from atom. So, you know, when we talk

848
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:47,040
about, oh, we need to drive value to atom, you know, atom needs to do stuff. It's like, at the end

849
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:53,360
of the day, everything that we use at the moment, you know, SDK, IBC, etc. It all started with atom.

850
01:20:53,360 --> 01:20:56,880
So, it's the same thing with Bitcoin, right? Everyone's like, oh, you know,

851
01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:03,840
Adam's the Bitcoin of Cosmos. Yeah, it kind of is. It's gonna have the name and it's always gonna

852
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:10,000
have value because everything originated from atom, right? Like, at the end of the day, like,

853
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:14,080
what we're saying is, I think is right, like, IBC is the future, like, I don't care about

854
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:19,680
Tenderman, I don't care about SDK, Cosmism, in a sense, I don't necessarily care about too much.

855
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:26,480
Yeah, it's better than, you know, writing these core modules. We need to enable IBC across every

856
01:21:26,480 --> 01:21:31,440
crypto ecosystem and connect everyone. And then I don't care what you're using underneath it.

857
01:21:31,440 --> 01:21:35,280
There's gonna be better versions of Tenderman. There's gonna be better versions of the SDK.

858
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:39,280
There's gonna be better versions of different versions of Cosmism. We just need to connect

859
01:21:39,280 --> 01:21:44,720
everyone. And then what we can come back and drive value back to atom and say, this all came from

860
01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:50,720
atom and everyone will buy atom because that's where the development came from and will come from

861
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:55,600
and it will always have value because of that. I think it's just like the internet. Internet is

862
01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:59,920
actually something where like a couple of one standards actually one out. But why did those

863
01:21:59,920 --> 01:22:04,000
standards went out? There were actually different people trying to make different internet protocols

864
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:09,760
before that were proprietary because they were like, we want to be the one communications platform

865
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:18,160
to rule them all. And those all failed in the face of TCP IP and of HTML because they were just

866
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:23,920
free to build on. They were completely open. There wasn't a token or anything that like forced,

867
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:29,040
you know, you into their terms of service or whatever. And as we saw with the internet,

868
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:33,040
yes, there's many websites, but you know, there's still, it's all about network effects, right?

869
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:39,440
And, you know, I think that Adam's going to do well in the long run because it just has brand

870
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:45,520
recognition and it will have network effects. And there's, there's advantages to also being early

871
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:50,480
on these things because as the interchange grows and grows, yes, eventually it's going to add Ethereum.

872
01:22:50,480 --> 01:22:55,680
But like by the time that happens, there's already going to be substantial network effects and

873
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:59,920
substantial like economic alliances, you know, by that time, I think we'll have like really good

874
01:22:59,920 --> 01:23:05,920
mesh security. And Adam will have economic, you know, I would love to have like mesh security

875
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:11,120
with the Cosmos Hub for Juneau. I think it just makes a ton of sense. And it's, I kind of almost

876
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:16,320
wish we like launched with that instead of, you know, going down this replicated security detour,

877
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:21,600
but you know, that's a, well, I like, and I want to find a way to have Dow Dow on the hub, right?

878
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:26,800
Like, because actually, I had a sudden, I had a realization today where I was like, I'm not quite

879
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:34,480
sure that after accelerated Dow's about like we are, it's not like that's the thing. It is a

880
01:23:34,480 --> 01:23:40,640
multi-sig. Like we, yeah, everyone, everyone shits on Juneau for it, but we actually have probably

881
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:45,520
have the best governance in crypto. I cannot, I can literally not name another crypto project

882
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:51,600
where the core team and the foundation is a sub-dow and they can be rugged at any moment and the

883
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:56,800
members can be replaced. And I just think where it would be with like AIB and all this shit, if

884
01:23:56,800 --> 01:23:59,600
like there were actually, there was actually accountability, you know?

885
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:06,000
Imagine if you could claw back all those items that were meant for original developers that now

886
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:14,800
own by private company. Or if you could, if you could claw back the items from the ICF because

887
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:20,400
they're not doing a good enough job of looking after the Cosmos SDK, you know,

888
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:26,080
like people give a shit about their delegations. I don't give a fuck about that. I give a bit

889
01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:31,520
of a fucking about DragonBerry. Yeah, totally. That happened on your watch and it's not in

890
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:36,000
your transparency report. Like you, the ICF has got the ball.

891
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:42,480
Yeah, straight up, right? And you know, people were kind of arguing with like the token swap

892
01:24:42,480 --> 01:24:49,040
between Juneau and Dowdow. I was heavily involved in those conversations and essentially, you know,

893
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:55,520
Juneau helped build Dowdow. Dowdow is a key element to the future direction of vision of Juneau.

894
01:24:55,520 --> 01:25:01,440
So Juneau got, in my opinion, an incredible deal because, you know, we get 10% of the supply,

895
01:25:01,440 --> 01:25:07,280
they get half a million Juneau, sounds like a lot. But when Dowdow is deployed on, you know,

896
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:12,960
or there's outposts on 10, 15 chains or, you know, there's 10 or 15 chains using Dowdow on Juneau

897
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:18,320
and bringing their liquidity to Juneau, then all of a sudden, now when people want features,

898
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:22,080
they're going to have to go to the Dowdow team. This is my words, right? Not Dowdow's.

899
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:28,240
And they go, hey, we want this feature. Okay, cool. Here, pay us some of your

900
01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:31,200
atom tokens to get those features and then you can have it.

901
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:38,480
Which if I was a voting member of the Atom Accelerator Dow, which might like to be super

902
01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:43,200
clear to the listeners, I literally do the marketing and the coordination stuff. I have zero

903
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:51,200
actual like vote or voice. You know, the team are very respectful and listen to my opinions,

904
01:25:51,200 --> 01:25:54,640
but like actually they make all the calls, right? You're not a sign-off.

905
01:25:55,360 --> 01:26:00,800
That's not, yeah, it's entirely the point. So, but what I was going to say is that I would pay

906
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:07,280
Dowdow in a heartbeat for features that we need because we need them, they have huge value.

907
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:14,640
It like to pay for development time plus profit, it's in their brain, right? So, it is a-

908
01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:20,560
I mean, look at how much money was put into Groups module as an example. It is multiple

909
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:24,560
millions of dollars. I don't know. Someone would have to do the adding up of it, but, and it's

910
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:29,120
also been like three years or more effort. Like they've been talking about Groups module for,

911
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:34,160
you know, that came out of, I think the same hackathon that Cosmosm came out of. And so,

912
01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:38,240
it's literally been that long and there's been all this invested in it and-

913
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:43,280
I think Groups don't actually hold funds if my memory is correct. So, like-

914
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:48,880
Oh, with the data is still like years beyond the Groups module by this point, like it's just,

915
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:53,120
yeah, like if you want to do things like approval flows or vetoes or things like that,

916
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:55,760
that's all like possible. That's not possible with Groups module.

917
01:26:56,400 --> 01:27:03,920
But like, you know, and I think this is, like Dowdow is a very good example of a product that

918
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:08,560
has really great product market fit, right? All these chains need to do governance. They need

919
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:15,520
to do much more complex things. You need to be able to mimic things that people do in the,

920
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:20,640
in the Web 2 world, in real life at the moment, in company structures, all of those things that

921
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:26,400
we have to do in real life, we need to be able to do them on chain and we want to minimize trust

922
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:31,920
and Dowdow allows you to do that. You know, one of the, like, so there are some, we're not there,

923
01:27:31,920 --> 01:27:36,080
yeah, I think identity still needs solving. I think privacy still needs solving. I think there's

924
01:27:36,080 --> 01:27:40,240
loads of this stuff, but Dowdow is a good example of how to do something.

925
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:46,080
We're actually working with Dev or Dave from Osmosis and Privacy Features coming in,

926
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:51,520
Dowdow v3. Or at least we're going to start like designing them. So, and then as far as identity

927
01:27:51,520 --> 01:27:57,280
goes, we actually have that feature like almost shipped. This is a very long, big challenge

928
01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:05,840
because identity is, it's tricky. But we are working on with like Synapse as a third party

929
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:10,720
to allow for basically just like proving that someone is an actual human being.

930
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:14,880
Now, we don't put that data on chain so you can't look up like who that person is, but you know,

931
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:20,320
there's like some, you know, third party record so that if you need to do, you know, I think one

932
01:28:20,320 --> 01:28:23,680
of the things that I'm excited about for the Internet of Blockchains is that it allows for

933
01:28:23,680 --> 01:28:27,840
diversity. And we are going to have both permission lists and permission chains.

934
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:30,800
And even some of the permission chains, there's going to be a spectrum there. I

935
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:36,880
seriously believe that there is going to be like local governments or countries or actual like

936
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:42,400
big companies that use these chains for their books. And to, I mean, look at this path of the

937
01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:47,600
stablecoin legislation in America, we might have these kind of regulated sort of stablecoins, which

938
01:28:48,480 --> 01:28:52,960
I don't think are like completely bad. And, you know, maybe they're not completely good either.

939
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:56,800
But I think maybe on the whole, they're like largely a little bit more positive. But, you know,

940
01:28:56,800 --> 01:29:00,720
those are going to be like permissions chains, kind of like what circle is doing, right?

941
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:06,080
And the great thing about the interchange is all this stuff can just exist seamlessly together.

942
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:08,480
And then you can get composability between all these things.

943
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:14,000
And the thing is, as a user, you don't have to understand any of that eventually.

944
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:17,760
Eventually, you can get to a point where it's literally like using the Internet is today,

945
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:23,760
but you get all of the actual like accountability of this being on check.