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Yeah, I mean that is unfortunate I suppose but never mind dad's still not back for cigarettes we just got to go.

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Welcome to game of notes weekly podcast on the cause must from independent validator teams.

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Hello welcome to game of notes weekly podcast on the cause must from independent validator teams and as you might have identified.

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Dad is still not back with a cigarette we're still very upset we were waiting waiting waiting where we've been since last week sat in these chairs clothes haven't changed maybe.

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And yeah we also have friend of the show sporty fully doxxed Julie Fox.

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No I mean to be fair I guess your your handle online is usually spoo or spoo bar which is at least half of the way there anyway so.

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I think my twitter has my full name my first name.

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I guess you need to put all of things together well this is the thing is that I guess you just knowing somebody's like everybody knows knows Jake from core one right they know his name but it's it's.

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Watch it I guess yeah no it is very very easy if you know somebody's full name and surname that's the key I guess as long as you keep.

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One of those things I guess we have a short C case in point you're you're like very not to know and yet amount of mystery.

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Well here's the funny thing though I recently had a name change go through so I'm kind of anonymous again.

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We say wait what you say you've changed your name IRL yeah yeah I got married we need our last name so we're like.

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I got something different oh my god dad's back.

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I'm back with the cigarettes and gin I was so surprised by the shit about my bike sound over the Leopold's from from Denver Colorado I was just about to ask about that that's really good.

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No and I had some I think what he was on no we had a whiskey then but we had someone he was over I open that I open that laws like.

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We I forget which one we bought we bought like some you know about the same one right it was I bought reserve that's right you but yeah you're about super fancy we bought I bought some reserve one there and I had a little bit of that and I was like oh boy.

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Yeah I think it was like whoa baby right okay Eric's back.

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Happy days null has gone walk about.

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He's in the area of Australia and is belong to null and so he's not joining this week and I see yeah I see yeah so basically.

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We're not gonna we've already taught we've already taught you which is better than we mostly do for like an entire hour we actually have not only a developer but a fellow validator on the show.

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So probably somebody who's more more on the pulse of what's actually going on in the cause more so well than us fucking dipshits.

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Wait hold on I'm gonna.

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Sporthy you run a validator which validator do you run I don't think I realized that.

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On Stargaze around the cosmos ladies.

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Oh never mind I didn't know that I didn't know that okay.

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So due to a scheduling cock up by Australian contingent spoo was going to come on on international women's day I believe to talk about the cause most ladies and.

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What also obviously what's the best obviously maybe not obvious to listen to the show but sport is also worked as a core as a core kind of SDK dev.

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Wait I'm allowed to talk about this is this do you have like.

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You allowed to talk about your job right or your old job yeah yeah because I never saw something really like I don't really know if anybody has like a green but anyway what so you know what for ICF and stuff like that so.

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Also knows knows a lot about.

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Sorry yeah and yeah so.

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Really kind of so I change so how long have you actually been working in cosmos in total I mean I despite having like.

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No new on and off various things require a while I've actually never asked that question.

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Guess in total 2.5 years but I am counting like parts where I was working on cosmos but not.

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As professionally so professionally I guess it's two years but.

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So like one or two and a half so kind of like an OG or like relatively I mean I guess how what was OG how how about how far back you have to go to be a really legit OG.

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I think there's like you know the 2018 batch with sunny and all that tendament you know.

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Okay so like like pre app chain winter OG post sunny and co OG one of just maybe not OG but but a G is that.

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Is that allowed today so and what are you what are you mainly working on these days if you can talk about it.

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Other than the validation stuff which will kind of go on to so predominantly I'm working at Phylabs on archway and adjacent stuff and also know I contribute some stuff to stargaze as well.

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Okay nice so that you serpas you serpas like stargaze and what.

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Sorry I didn't know you always do the site you always do this little involuntary dog with stargaze next mentioned you just like I do like stargaze yeah.

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Oh yeah yeah I also do things with stargaze yes we do yes stargaze.

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So hey so I totally missed that mint the other week as well did you guys will get did you guys will get it were you.

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You mean the after the filter yeah yeah was it was it was I got a few was it good.

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It was sold out of me what was the go yeah it was it was nuts what was the price on those.

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I don't remember what they did that sounds right yeah yeah there was a they whitelisted what was it 30 some odd hundred.

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It was one per every if you held a bad kid you you had one whitelisted right it was one to one wasn't I think it was I don't think it was was it.

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I thought it was because I think I think there's 30 there was there was 3,000 or 3,600 bad kids originally and there's 10,000 of after the filter and I think everyone who held an original bad kid was could could whitelist was whitelisted one more bad kids than that one that 10,000 no it's only no no that's what I thought too because I was like how many are left after this I can go look real quick got it and then and then there were yeah I could take a look at how many bad kids there are.

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Oh you're right there are 10,000 yeah yeah what are you talking about wait no wait that's bit kids look at the wrong one my bed look at the wrong one it's also one to one with bad kids yeah there's 10,000 there to say it was 9,996 because four people burned them.

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Did we know we've been we've been on the show you didn't burn a bad kid that's a blue chip you can't that's a blue just burn that shit.

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I thought it was one to one maybe it wasn't but anyway there was a whitelist that was that was for I think a few hours beforehand and then then it opened up.

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And I think they had a then I think they all went in.

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I remember I posted some stats on Twitter but they all went like within 1015 minutes or something like that.

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It was something like that.

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So and then they opened up then they opened up the market they're gonna.

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They're thinking it was gonna meant for like a few days or something like that they're gonna they're gonna open the marketplace like a week later they end up open up the marketplace I think.

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Six or seven hours after the mint was done or after the mint started what did you I guess you guys probably took took the hit on obviously the traffic and stuff for that what did it look like.

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I I'll link a little tweet I had but it was something along the lines of.

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Shoot I'll find it but it it was it was a pretty significant jump real quick.

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Was it intense intense degeneracy was it like mid level degeneracy or.

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It was pretty intense it was it was to the point where I like I was bit like we were prepped out like I knew I knew it was coming and so I was like watching.

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Dashboards to what the hell's going on and there was a there and I during the minute I had no issues in terms of transaction I was just minting the ones I was going through is this let me go.

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I did have one time out and I was like oh shit what the hell's this but I think at that point I thought at least what I was pulling there was something like.

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20,000 transactions in the mempool or 20 or 30,000 so that's people just hitting it over and over and over and I don't even know what and but the maximum per block was only like.

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20 or 30 a block I thought or maybe 30 or 40 block we can go back and look and see what the blocks were like so I assume that's the contract running and then it was trying to figure out who's first in there and a bunch of other types of shit in there and a lot of those transactions I assume failed because they're already minting on a.

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Number that was already in process maybe is that how that works.

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I don't know how the sequential mint works because you can do a whole bunch of ways like if it's just a pure.

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Increment it's submit yeah I know it's a miss mempool and then the one that succeeds gets it and the others will fail right cuz it's just an atomic it's just an atomic right.

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I don't know if it's but is it is it figuring out which one is the next one available and so therefore it's doing a transaction for that number it's just a hey run the contract whatever's next to give me the next one.

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I think it would try and write it went to the simplest way it would do it in cause wasm is you try and write the key to the key value store but it already exists obviously we're just error.

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For something like an ft so at so and then the request so there's request on the this is so there's a number request per second so we picked at around 18,000 requests a second so 18,000 requests means.

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People are on the site they're hitting they're hitting the button they are you know going to marketplace whatever that is it turns into a bunch of requests right cuz it's the site is actually really well architected and it's cashed a lot but it's still hitting RPC and API a lot for.

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For item so it hit 18,000 requests per second we haven't had that there hasn't been that high in a long time like that I think that the last I remember maybe bad kids or something before that was maybe 12 or 13,000.

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I misspoke there's 3000 transactions in the mempool that was sustained for like a few minutes so I don't even know how that works dude but that's the numbers that I have coming out of the nodes.

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I don't know I don't know maybe yeah that maybe that what it is and it's just fucking tough and transactions and or something.

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And then on cloudflare there was 1500 unique visitors a minute which is pretty decent actually 1500 me figure who's in the men and everything else like that.

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And Germany in the US accounted for 70% of traffic there was a ton of German traffic and a ton US traffic and everything else and after that was like Finland and.

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A couple of the ones that were that were much lower down actually have a graph in this tweet thread as well so I use you know minted them all basic probably yeah right exactly Max you know was running a in Germany and Simon.

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Right yeah exactly we will know.

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That's exactly right sure so but actually listens to the podcast after so I know that's reason I'm like so I did not buy any of those NFTs.

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Hong Kong Great Britain Russia France Japan Poland Austria Italy Canada so like but it was there was a lot of US centric type of things right but yeah it was it was humming there for I don't know maybe only like 10 minutes or something like that but by that point it was the mint was gone it was done.

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Like so it was then everything kind of calmed down yeah so it was fun I like I like you know I want obviously star guys to be successful I like when these type of things come up because it's a good chance to like see what is going to fail.

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And why I don't think this was an I don't think it was necessarily an infrastructure issue with like the number of transactions and like the pauses I think like it like the nodes is could not get enough.

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I don't know I don't know how that kind again I don't know how that contract structure works but it seems like it just there's too many requests on that contract for this one specific contract for this set and it couldn't fulfill it for some reason.

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Well maybe would it would it be gas that's the limit potentially because if that's what I thought to I thought it'd be gas per block but I thought that was really high wasn't it I thought that was like.

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I know it's config per chain but don't know what it's set to on stargaze but like you do like you know the complexity of the transaction has a pretty big impact on this ability to fit in the.

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You know what Spoo probably know this better than any of us like right do you happen to know anything about the way the stargaze and if teammate contracts work.

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I think the codes open source so I really should just read it and look at it but you know some homework we do code review so no idea.

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We can do a code review on the show live on the show let's try and work out just how much gas roughly in my use and what the what the bottleneck is here that's probably not be.

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I could use some time I don't see a mask I don't see a mask gas gas parameter on men's game I was hoping it might be in there.

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Yes there's a brand pink dot pub might have it.

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I have a show everything right.

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Um so we've we've also we also had a follow up from from last so you missed out you said but we were trying to work was this last week we were trying to work out what Babylon is.

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Yeah we were talking about I listened to the show was pretty good.

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I encourage everybody who's listening now to go back and listen and we sort of managed to roughly figure out what what Babylon was doing we had a viewer follow up questions so saying well hang on a minute why not just do Babylon with cosmos chains.

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Wasn't that me was that you.

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Was I was the viewer with you the viewer okay well so I've obviously I've obviously massively inflated our viewing figures in my head.

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Can't make me the hell now both of you and the other honor.

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Yeah so is is proof is is proof of work the thing that is fully required there.

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Is that what or is it the inherent or the high value of Bitcoin itself like what which is the securing what's the thing that's doing.

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Because I'm guessing this is all about using the correct word here kind of exogenously securing outside of the in terms of economic security obviously the block thing is separate.

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And Rama came on and schooled us all like children on why that you did was the case so.

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Well take well take care of his own children.

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Yeah I think the writing part like you need to write it and then that's external state essentially.

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But yeah why could that not be another cosmos chain that's it.

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Is it is it right into is it right into the is it right into Bitcoin or is it taking the Bitcoin hash and embedding it into a block so therefore.

108
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You do you get a memo Bitcoin I think you do didn't you.

109
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I don't know. Oh it could be that too.

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Maybe you do.

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I think that Bitcoin has a specific parameter that you can add to it because I just looking into it a bit.

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And I imagine that's part of the reason why it's necessary and it's not.

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You know implemented on a theorem or something it has to do with that that that field a specific field that you can use.

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But I don't understand how that works either.

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But by understanding of what when you guys talked about with Rama was that you're basically tying the you're tying the state of the Bitcoin of Bitcoin into.

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The Babylon you're basically tying that state into this cosmos chain state right.

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So therefore it's extremely difficult or impossible to be able to change this chain state because it's tied to a specific hash is coming from something that's off chain right.

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Or it's coming from Bitcoin or something else like that.

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That's kind of we understood it like you're there's no actual economic.

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I mean the economic piece of it is that you can't change that state of both of these chains to try to change the state of a chain that uses Babylon right.

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And so is that right. That's kind of what that's kind of what.

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Yeah. So the the the economic security I think is just knock on in that you assume that the integrity of Bitcoin is correct.

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Solid which is why you can use a second.

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I assume why you couldn't use a second here proof of work chain because the whole point is that it has to be the high value one.

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But I could be wrong about that.

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I still say my narrow should be the one senses reason because Bitcoin the longer you go.

127
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The more final the block is which is kind of opposite to the way proof of stake where you get fast finality.

128
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But over time you could have long range attacks but you can't have that in proof of work.

129
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That's interesting. Maybe that's yeah.

130
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Well because the longest chain but the longest chain wins thing you can subvert that.

131
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Can't you so you could have a situation where based on the number of confirmations if you depending on how the bit I could be wrong about this.

132
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This is my miss my naive understanding of the Bitcoin mining bearing mine.

133
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I haven't run a proof of work minor for over Jesus Christ maybe over 10 years anyway.

134
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Isn't it the case and I'm directing this mainly at Spoo and Chelsea because you guys definitely know better than me.

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If you because of the longest chain wins thing like Spoo just said the the more confirmations you have of the chain being the longest then the more likely that is to like be correct.

136
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But you can do the thing where there is I guess no actually now I'm talking shit because the attack I'm thinking of where you build a chain in private.

137
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And then you force the new chain to be higher requires voting power doesn't it.

138
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So actually you that's that's just that's a 51% attack actually you can't you can assume that what Spoo said is right.

139
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Which is that beyond the more confirmations you get the more likely that like is very unlikely that states could be rewritten right.

140
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But it does make you think if there was a 51% attack on Bitcoin you could end up.

141
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I mean the attack would have to move incredibly fast.

142
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They'd have to notice that that was the case on Bitcoin and then attack you over here.

143
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Right.

144
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I mean if you attack Bitcoin I don't think you'll care about some cosmos change.

145
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No shit right.

146
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Exactly.

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Wait what do you say Spoo what do you say.

148
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Surely that would be the news people would be like if you're on the same attack on Bitcoin but also more importantly.

149
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We want to attack Juneau.

150
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Let's go attack Bitcoin first.

151
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Yeah let's go attack Bitcoin first but really our goal is Juneau here.

152
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A real goal.

153
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Cosmos coins trading after around $1.

154
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Just to be fair Stuggins trading after around $1.

155
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I.

156
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I.

157
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Did it hit that high really.

158
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We were we talked about this before I think someone said it was 81 cents.

159
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I think the whole set was 80 cents.

160
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I thought it was like 46.

161
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But I thought I thought the high was like 50 cents max.

162
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That's what I thought too but I think I think I look back in coin get coin get co says 84 cents is what it hit.

163
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Yeah.

164
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Wow.

165
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That must have been a really short that was been a real short spike because I don't really remember.

166
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Maybe that was when because the the chain launched and I think it was listed on coin get co before the osmosis liquidity pool started.

167
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So maybe that was when it was trying to converge.

168
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You know the price was trying to the price.

169
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What's it called.

170
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I'm tired.

171
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Price discover price when price discovery was happening.

172
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You know this is this is price discovery.

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That's what that means.

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But the waving of the hand.

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But but the idea that I like I understand where Babylon I understand that need it seems to be to me a bit overhyped.

176
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It doesn't seem to be that large of a concern that it needs all this this hype around it.

177
00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:09,020
And also my question was why couldn't you do the same idea with other proof of stake change within the cosmos.

178
00:20:09,020 --> 00:20:18,460
And if you do it with if you can IBC that structure whatever whatever transaction that is why couldn't you do that in a mesh system with every chain in the cosmos that is IBCed.

179
00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:26,700
And so basically you have a shared security structure of having all these different block hashes or whatever the hell they are doing somehow contained in that type of thing where.

180
00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:31,940
Does it does it need to be proof of work and does it need to be Bitcoin at 14 minutes a block or could you do it in some other way.

181
00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:33,660
And it sounds like a much cheaper way.

182
00:20:33,660 --> 00:20:34,900
I mean that was my question.

183
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:35,260
Yeah.

184
00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:40,580
I mean it sounds like we can and that's kind of what mesh security is fundamentally right.

185
00:20:40,580 --> 00:20:50,620
Which to that end is that we should also get someone from stride on like Riley to explain to us as validators if we are still going to be validators on strike in two weeks.

186
00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:54,540
But that's that's neither here nor there.

187
00:20:54,540 --> 00:20:57,420
I still don't know the answer that work is a vice yes.

188
00:20:57,420 --> 00:20:58,100
Yeah.

189
00:20:58,100 --> 00:20:58,700
Yeah.

190
00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:02,100
And then like governators or something like that.

191
00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:02,620
That's right.

192
00:21:02,620 --> 00:21:02,900
Yeah.

193
00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:03,740
We're going to be governators.

194
00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:07,020
But does that mean we turn off our nodes.

195
00:21:07,020 --> 00:21:08,580
I don't know.

196
00:21:08,580 --> 00:21:09,700
Is that is that what it is.

197
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:12,220
Or I'm a I'm a governor.

198
00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:13,460
Something like and yeah.

199
00:21:13,460 --> 00:21:15,740
And I don't want to be a governor.

200
00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:18,620
Love governance right.

201
00:21:18,620 --> 00:21:21,140
Big big part of being the governor.

202
00:21:21,140 --> 00:21:23,420
You don't want to be a governor.

203
00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:27,220
I want to be a governor.

204
00:21:27,220 --> 00:21:28,740
You don't make blocks.

205
00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:32,860
You don't make blocks which sounds that sounds a little bit.

206
00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:35,340
I am the one who knocks actually more.

207
00:21:35,340 --> 00:21:35,980
Yeah.

208
00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:37,860
More of an instruction.

209
00:21:37,860 --> 00:21:39,460
You don't make blocks.

210
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:40,580
So I make blocks.

211
00:21:40,580 --> 00:21:42,260
I make straight doing nothing.

212
00:21:42,260 --> 00:21:42,420
Yeah.

213
00:21:42,420 --> 00:21:48,020
So so 15 percent of strides income is going back to ICS validators.

214
00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:53,540
So we're going to make 85 percent of inflation or whatever or of income

215
00:21:53,540 --> 00:21:56,220
of fees as governators.

216
00:21:56,220 --> 00:21:58,020
Does that make sense.

217
00:21:58,020 --> 00:22:00,140
But wait.

218
00:22:00,140 --> 00:22:02,580
Are we making blocks but they're receiving the 15 percent

219
00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:05,220
because there's a security piece of it or they're making blocks.

220
00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:08,300
They're running it for 15 percent because why the fuck would they do that.

221
00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:08,500
Yeah.

222
00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:09,220
That's what I was thinking.

223
00:22:09,220 --> 00:22:11,100
Like wait a second.

224
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:11,820
Yeah.

225
00:22:11,820 --> 00:22:14,700
This is like the other day I was reading a I was reading a paper

226
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:18,980
and I was and I was reading it and like I just don't understand

227
00:22:18,980 --> 00:22:21,100
how validators make money in this model.

228
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:23,500
It's it's this is madness.

229
00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:25,260
Like why would you possibly want to do this.

230
00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:27,780
And then I like read on to the next section.

231
00:22:27,780 --> 00:22:33,780
It was like it was it was it was about essentially stables

232
00:22:33,780 --> 00:22:35,660
and it was like oh banks are running it.

233
00:22:35,660 --> 00:22:38,300
That's why like it's not like degenerates.

234
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:41,380
They're like when they say decentralized they mean lots of banks

235
00:22:41,380 --> 00:22:42,660
and lots of jurisdictions.

236
00:22:42,660 --> 00:22:45,860
They mean they don't mean like random degenerates in their basement

237
00:22:45,860 --> 00:22:46,460
like us.

238
00:22:46,460 --> 00:22:50,100
And I was like oh OK the economic incentive is those guys are already

239
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:53,740
banks and they're issuing actual currency.

240
00:22:53,740 --> 00:22:56,140
So that's that's why that would work.

241
00:22:56,140 --> 00:22:58,740
Ben says Adam Vales make the blocks.

242
00:22:58,740 --> 00:23:00,420
Dylan says stride.

243
00:23:00,420 --> 00:23:03,460
Governators make 85 percent of the rewards.

244
00:23:03,460 --> 00:23:03,820
I don't know.

245
00:23:03,820 --> 00:23:07,060
I'm kind of turning my kind of turning this ship around on this ICS thing now.

246
00:23:07,060 --> 00:23:09,900
I'm going to mess it right right now and see if you want to dig in.

247
00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:13,820
If that's the case Chuck Norris broadcast transactions to the channel

248
00:23:13,820 --> 00:23:15,100
with a stair.

249
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:16,580
That's right.

250
00:23:16,580 --> 00:23:18,420
Yeah, actually correct.

251
00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:19,340
Yeah, we shouldn't.

252
00:23:19,340 --> 00:23:20,220
That's pretty interesting actually.

253
00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:20,820
I don't know.

254
00:23:20,820 --> 00:23:21,700
And that's coming pretty soon.

255
00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:21,820
Right.

256
00:23:21,820 --> 00:23:25,180
Is it next next few months or something or sooner?

257
00:23:25,180 --> 00:23:27,860
Maybe even sooner than that.

258
00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:34,980
So I know in kind of mastering commander news or related news.

259
00:23:34,980 --> 00:23:35,940
Yes.

260
00:23:35,940 --> 00:23:40,220
I another paper that I came across but didn't understand too much math in it.

261
00:23:40,220 --> 00:23:43,340
But conceptually was quite fun.

262
00:23:43,340 --> 00:23:49,660
Was a paper called Simple Rigs Hold Fast which was about

263
00:23:49,660 --> 00:23:53,940
the object states and and invariance.

264
00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:59,140
And it the reason this is funny right is because you know when people have to

265
00:23:59,140 --> 00:24:04,300
define like an ontology like to to to express a new idea.

266
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:09,100
The ontology they used was sailing and rigging for essentially like

267
00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:12,140
invariance I guess in a kind of low trust system.

268
00:24:12,140 --> 00:24:16,900
And they the best bit is there.

269
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:21,420
So they define a rig as a cryptographic data structure that provides integrity

270
00:24:21,420 --> 00:24:23,620
at a distance and then blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

271
00:24:23,620 --> 00:24:30,300
And then it says we define the rig property of holding fast which is a strong

272
00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:33,980
form of causal connection between a blah blah blah blah blah blah.

273
00:24:33,980 --> 00:24:36,900
And then there's a whole bunch of other stuff which is all rigging metaphors.

274
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:42,100
But as you may recall holding fast is a prominent feature of the of the

275
00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:43,300
crew and mastering commander.

276
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:45,500
So I chuckle quite a lot.

277
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:48,060
And then I got to the next page and there was a bunch of maths and I was like,

278
00:24:48,060 --> 00:24:50,060
well, this is not for the likes of me.

279
00:24:50,060 --> 00:24:51,460
I don't understand what the fuck this means.

280
00:24:51,460 --> 00:24:57,940
But nice nice to see holding fast getting a few respect in the academic mealier.

281
00:24:57,940 --> 00:25:00,940
That was put the you put the book down turn on master commander.

282
00:25:00,940 --> 00:25:05,540
Yeah, I was just like this this this shit ain't for me.

283
00:25:05,540 --> 00:25:07,500
Click the TV on play.

284
00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:11,020
Watch the title sequence of master and commander.

285
00:25:11,020 --> 00:25:16,420
You know, HMS prize, whatever it is, six guns, 300 souls, South

286
00:25:16,420 --> 00:25:22,540
South Atlantic, her goal, find French privateers, take them, burn them.

287
00:25:22,540 --> 00:25:27,300
Was it destroy them, burn them, sink them, burn them or take them a prize.

288
00:25:28,860 --> 00:25:30,620
Are you reading the script from memory?

289
00:25:30,620 --> 00:25:32,740
Yeah, that's kind of I think that's the title card, isn't it?

290
00:25:34,500 --> 00:25:37,500
From master and you're asking the wrong and then just as we got past the title

291
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:40,660
cards, I heard the sound of a baby pooping and that was the end of my

292
00:25:40,660 --> 00:25:42,660
mastering commander watching experience for the day.

293
00:25:44,540 --> 00:25:48,380
So speaking of other things, drill three of the week.

294
00:25:48,820 --> 00:25:49,820
Are you ready?

295
00:25:51,540 --> 00:25:52,940
Oh, dining.

296
00:25:57,380 --> 00:25:59,060
I don't think I could pronounce.

297
00:25:59,060 --> 00:26:04,980
OK, so chef, Monsignor leaving this bad spelling.

298
00:26:04,980 --> 00:26:08,500
This is I'm trying to I'm trying to phonetically spell the bad spelling.

299
00:26:08,660 --> 00:26:13,060
Chef Monsignor leaving the tails on the shrimp is good.

300
00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:15,300
It is Trebien.

301
00:26:15,740 --> 00:26:18,820
Me, I'm going to nuke you with live ammo.

302
00:26:19,060 --> 00:26:21,340
I'm the guy from the crow.

303
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:23,300
That's the that's the tweet.

304
00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:24,420
That's that's amazing.

305
00:26:24,420 --> 00:26:26,420
Magic. It's inspiring.

306
00:26:26,420 --> 00:26:29,220
I the direction of my life.

307
00:26:30,020 --> 00:26:32,420
I feel like I've got a new cue in my

308
00:26:32,420 --> 00:26:36,180
Vamo, I have the guy from the crow is something I actually would say.

309
00:26:37,420 --> 00:26:40,380
You really should like pre you got to you got to pre stage those.

310
00:26:40,580 --> 00:26:43,220
Are you just putting a finger in the book and just like reading whatever comes up?

311
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:45,740
Yeah, I mean, really, I should actually like get there.

312
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:47,700
Just should.

313
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:51,820
But then as well, I mean, if I if I if I if I how I don't know how I'd find

314
00:26:51,820 --> 00:26:55,300
the tweet, the original, I guess I could paper out the book.

315
00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:58,340
Yeah, but it should get it from noise network.

316
00:26:59,340 --> 00:27:01,980
Oh, really good.

317
00:27:01,980 --> 00:27:03,580
You can make a drill box.

318
00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:05,780
We could make a drill box.

319
00:27:05,780 --> 00:27:07,260
Now that was noise.

320
00:27:07,260 --> 00:27:09,620
We just need a corpus of drill tweets.

321
00:27:09,620 --> 00:27:13,220
The problem is like Twitter is fucking turned off their API, haven't they?

322
00:27:13,220 --> 00:27:15,420
Basically, unless you pay them a shitload of money.

323
00:27:15,420 --> 00:27:16,820
So no, there's a website.

324
00:27:16,820 --> 00:27:17,420
That's good.

325
00:27:17,420 --> 00:27:20,340
That's what I use to use my governance votes comments.

326
00:27:21,980 --> 00:27:24,660
Well, there's a there's a website you can click.

327
00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:27,380
That will just randomly give you a drill tweet.

328
00:27:27,380 --> 00:27:29,700
Like you hit a button and you don't need noise.

329
00:27:29,700 --> 00:27:30,620
No, his network.

330
00:27:30,620 --> 00:27:31,860
No, well, I guess so.

331
00:27:31,860 --> 00:27:34,100
Yeah, I mean, you could randomize a randomizer, but I can't.

332
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:35,980
It real treats need to be on chain, dude.

333
00:27:35,980 --> 00:27:40,020
Clearly, I mean, that seems very Web three to randomize the randomizer.

334
00:27:40,020 --> 00:27:41,580
Just say you're using Web three.

335
00:27:41,580 --> 00:27:42,580
Exactly.

336
00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:46,420
We want to use noise because we want to somehow.

337
00:27:46,420 --> 00:27:48,340
But that could just use math.

338
00:27:48,340 --> 00:27:49,940
That round and in JavaScript core.

339
00:27:49,940 --> 00:27:50,780
Fuck that.

340
00:27:50,780 --> 00:27:51,380
Fuck that.

341
00:27:51,380 --> 00:27:52,420
But you could cheat it.

342
00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:53,860
You might be you might be.

343
00:27:53,860 --> 00:27:57,300
You might be you might be purposely picking specific drill tweets over and over

344
00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:58,740
to further your agenda.

345
00:27:58,740 --> 00:28:00,460
We need real we need to randomize.

346
00:28:00,460 --> 00:28:04,260
Well, I mean, as we know, it's not actually possible for me to be random

347
00:28:04,260 --> 00:28:05,660
in the way that I'm right.

348
00:28:05,660 --> 00:28:06,860
That's actually not right.

349
00:28:06,860 --> 00:28:09,100
Not conceptually possible.

350
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:12,900
I will have inherent biases that mean that I'm not actually randomly picking them.

351
00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:19,460
So our entire methodology is unsound currently.

352
00:28:19,460 --> 00:28:23,380
And I think cryptography is the only thing that will save us.

353
00:28:23,380 --> 00:28:29,540
And the NFTs and Web three, maybe maybe defy as well.

354
00:28:29,540 --> 00:28:34,500
Like I throw it in a way we could add defy on top of drill.

355
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:41,620
I think that would probably we could mint a drill tweet each week and have just

356
00:28:41,620 --> 00:28:44,580
one one one tweet as an NFT each time.

357
00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:47,660
So it would be randomized and we'd only find out what it was when we went and

358
00:28:47,660 --> 00:28:50,180
minted the NFT when we instantiate the contract.

359
00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:50,820
That would be cool.

360
00:28:50,820 --> 00:28:54,420
And it would be fun because it would be copyright infringement.

361
00:28:54,420 --> 00:28:55,820
But it would be copyright infringement.

362
00:28:55,820 --> 00:28:57,500
Something's already public.

363
00:28:57,500 --> 00:28:58,180
Right.

364
00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:00,900
And like, well, I guess, yeah, you must.

365
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:01,780
Hmm.

366
00:29:01,780 --> 00:29:04,420
I don't I've never read the Twitter terms of service.

367
00:29:04,420 --> 00:29:09,020
I assume that you own the copyright on tweets that you write, but I actually don't know that.

368
00:29:09,020 --> 00:29:09,980
I doubt it.

369
00:29:09,980 --> 00:29:12,060
I doubt there's no way they would allow that, right?

370
00:29:12,060 --> 00:29:13,740
That's got to be well, it's got to be public domain.

371
00:29:13,740 --> 00:29:17,420
Well, but they probably wouldn't want to have the rights over it because then

372
00:29:17,420 --> 00:29:19,060
they would be accountable for it.

373
00:29:19,060 --> 00:29:21,500
So maybe it might be you that owns the tweet.

374
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:27,060
I think you must own the copyright on your tweets because it depends on jurisdiction,

375
00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:27,340
right?

376
00:29:27,340 --> 00:29:34,260
Because at least here, I'm pretty sure you have to explicitly sign a waiver or like

377
00:29:34,260 --> 00:29:39,060
a copyright transfer to like remove your moral rights over something you've created.

378
00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:43,540
But then maybe you sign that when you sign up to Twitter and you just don't notice.

379
00:29:43,540 --> 00:29:48,300
But like it's, you know, it's like, like I write.

380
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:55,500
So for a certain piece of content, you have to sign that stuff over and it is like a form

381
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:59,540
with legal stuff on it and you have to like go like for these situations, blah, blah,

382
00:29:59,540 --> 00:30:01,660
blah, blah.

383
00:30:01,660 --> 00:30:03,460
So that makes me think that maybe Twitter doesn't.

384
00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:08,980
But hey, if fewer knows, you know, holler.

385
00:30:08,980 --> 00:30:12,940
So in conclusion, we don't really know why not babble on with Cosmos chains.

386
00:30:12,940 --> 00:30:16,540
We suspect something's on proof of work, right?

387
00:30:16,540 --> 00:30:19,540
Yeah, that's where we left it last week, right?

388
00:30:19,540 --> 00:30:21,540
Hanway proof of work.

389
00:30:21,540 --> 00:30:28,540
Hey, so you can probably tell I've been on a bit of a need to do something productive

390
00:30:28,540 --> 00:30:33,780
while forcibly not being able to sleep for reasons that are obvious.

391
00:30:33,780 --> 00:30:37,100
I also read another paper which is quite dated now.

392
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:44,340
But it was all about Libra, which obviously, you know, DM Libra.

393
00:30:44,340 --> 00:30:46,820
Wait, hold on.

394
00:30:46,820 --> 00:30:49,140
Is there going to be a white paper portion of this podcast?

395
00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:51,540
Because if there is, I'm all about it.

396
00:30:51,540 --> 00:30:52,540
Yes.

397
00:30:52,540 --> 00:30:59,380
So this was, it was not the white paper itself, but this was an academic critique of the motives

398
00:30:59,380 --> 00:31:04,700
behind Facebook's original plan to build what is now obviously been open source and

399
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:06,500
has become apps awesome.

400
00:31:06,500 --> 00:31:09,620
Hey, and layer zero or zero layer zero.

401
00:31:09,620 --> 00:31:10,620
Yeah.

402
00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:11,620
Oh, yeah.

403
00:31:11,620 --> 00:31:12,620
And those guys.

404
00:31:12,620 --> 00:31:14,740
They were in main at first, you know.

405
00:31:14,740 --> 00:31:15,740
Yeah.

406
00:31:15,740 --> 00:31:16,740
Oh, yeah.

407
00:31:16,740 --> 00:31:17,900
Good for them.

408
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:22,540
We don't validate them so I don't care.

409
00:31:22,540 --> 00:31:26,300
Not that that's true of every chain, but it is in this case.

410
00:31:26,300 --> 00:31:35,100
But essentially that the, it posited that the entire purpose of a proof of stake chain was

411
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:40,180
to basically create a massive surveillance apparatus for Facebook, which is obviously

412
00:31:40,180 --> 00:31:47,020
completely correct because like the essential.

413
00:31:47,020 --> 00:31:50,820
So the thing that's really, really interesting, right, which, which obviously makes sense when

414
00:31:50,820 --> 00:31:56,180
you think about penumbra is the difference between how a lot of proof of stake works,

415
00:31:56,180 --> 00:32:02,820
where the way it models counts versus UTXOs in proof of work, because one of them is token

416
00:32:02,820 --> 00:32:03,820
based.

417
00:32:03,820 --> 00:32:04,820
This is a subtlety.

418
00:32:04,820 --> 00:32:07,580
I really, really hadn't clicked till I read this critique, right?

419
00:32:07,580 --> 00:32:14,100
Which is that UTXOs is much easier to build privacy primitives around them.

420
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:16,100
What is that UTXO?

421
00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:18,900
What's this stand for?

422
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:21,260
Unspent transaction output?

423
00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:22,260
Something like that.

424
00:32:22,260 --> 00:32:23,580
I'm getting a nod from the smartest person.

425
00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:24,580
So there we go.

426
00:32:24,580 --> 00:32:25,580
For those listening.

427
00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:26,580
I don't know if it's the second half.

428
00:32:26,580 --> 00:32:30,260
It is transaction output, but I don't know what the beginning part is.

429
00:32:30,260 --> 00:32:32,820
I think it's unspent, isn't it?

430
00:32:32,820 --> 00:32:38,300
Because you, by working out, wait, this is when I have to do some thinking because I'm

431
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:40,420
not a maths person.

432
00:32:40,420 --> 00:32:48,020
If, yeah, yeah, if you know the amount that remains unspent after the last set of transactions,

433
00:32:48,020 --> 00:32:52,380
you implicitly know all account balances, don't you?

434
00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:57,820
But you don't need to know you because you re, yeah, you replay the state to get to now.

435
00:32:57,820 --> 00:32:58,940
It's like event sourcing.

436
00:32:58,940 --> 00:33:03,860
You replay the state to get to now and then you know the state of the world and now, but

437
00:33:03,860 --> 00:33:08,820
you don't just like dump the state like a, like a Cosmos chain or something and just

438
00:33:08,820 --> 00:33:16,020
see account coins balance, you know, just as a mapping, right?

439
00:33:16,020 --> 00:33:17,740
It's fundamentally different.

440
00:33:17,740 --> 00:33:24,580
But the flip side of that is that obviously because everything is deltas, like changes,

441
00:33:24,580 --> 00:33:28,020
it means that you can just obfuscate them if you want to.

442
00:33:28,020 --> 00:33:32,860
There's a whole sorts of things you can do, very more simple, well, I mean, whatever,

443
00:33:32,860 --> 00:33:34,980
like it, what's anything simple.

444
00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:41,620
But the inherent like ability to just reach in, dump the state of a thing and just see

445
00:33:41,620 --> 00:33:50,340
all the balances is much conceptually easier for a non-UTXO blockchain is my understanding.

446
00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:53,660
And that was the kind of fundamental, that was one of the, one of the main critiques

447
00:33:53,660 --> 00:33:59,580
of the design and also kind of like, obviously, this is what they're doing.

448
00:33:59,580 --> 00:34:01,420
How do you think Facebook make the money?

449
00:34:01,420 --> 00:34:05,540
They're not making their money because they're going to make loads of money like PayPal.

450
00:34:05,540 --> 00:34:09,380
They are trying to basically go, hey regulators, don't worry, it's going to be all open because

451
00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:10,380
it's a blockchain.

452
00:34:10,380 --> 00:34:12,580
It's completely transparent, it's open.

453
00:34:12,580 --> 00:34:14,740
All our users have to put everything on it openly.

454
00:34:14,740 --> 00:34:15,740
Happy days.

455
00:34:15,740 --> 00:34:18,580
And then they can be like, yeah, we know exactly how much money you have in your account and

456
00:34:18,580 --> 00:34:21,740
we can sell you car insurance or whatever.

457
00:34:21,740 --> 00:34:25,780
But obviously then, they did fall a final regulation and that whole thing never ended

458
00:34:25,780 --> 00:34:26,780
up happening.

459
00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:29,100
But it's really interesting paper.

460
00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:31,820
And if I had my notebook here, I'd tell you what it was.

461
00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:37,700
It was something like Libra not about money.

462
00:34:37,700 --> 00:34:39,100
Is it about Facebook's Libra?

463
00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:40,100
Is it about money?

464
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:41,260
Is it really about money?

465
00:34:41,260 --> 00:34:42,260
Something like that.

466
00:34:42,260 --> 00:34:44,340
But yeah, I recommend that paper.

467
00:34:44,340 --> 00:34:47,540
It's quite a good read despite being about a thing that never came to pass.

468
00:34:47,540 --> 00:34:53,820
But the thing about the knock-on effects of UTXOs versus potentially proof of stake solutions

469
00:34:53,820 --> 00:34:55,540
and stuff I thought was really interesting.

470
00:34:55,540 --> 00:34:59,540
I'd be curious how much information you'd be able to pull from.

471
00:34:59,540 --> 00:35:04,860
How much money you just have sitting idle in someone's Libra account as it were.

472
00:35:04,860 --> 00:35:09,700
Apparently Starbucks has something like, I think the last time I saw it was like $6 billion

473
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:15,980
of people having money in their Starbucks accounts so they can buy coffee when they want to walk

474
00:35:15,980 --> 00:35:16,980
through.

475
00:35:16,980 --> 00:35:17,980
So they're $6 billion.

476
00:35:17,980 --> 00:35:20,340
So they're effectively a bank at that point.

477
00:35:20,340 --> 00:35:21,340
How much money you ask?

478
00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:26,820
You're telling me there could be a points run on Starbucks that would destabilize Starbucks.

479
00:35:26,820 --> 00:35:27,820
It's not points.

480
00:35:27,820 --> 00:35:31,580
Well, they already have the cash.

481
00:35:31,580 --> 00:35:32,580
You can't get the cash back.

482
00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:36,300
But could there be a, I mean, the only thing you can have would be a coffee run.

483
00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:37,700
You don't have a cost run.

484
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:38,700
But yeah, I suppose.

485
00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:39,700
That's about it though.

486
00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:41,200
But you're right.

487
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,980
The question is like, what could Facebook learn from you if you have like $10 sitting

488
00:35:45,980 --> 00:35:51,060
in your account at any given time versus $100 versus $1,000, right?

489
00:35:51,060 --> 00:35:55,260
Hitting certain benchmarks would mean they can market some seriously different things.

490
00:35:55,260 --> 00:36:00,460
Because keeping $1,000 in your Facebook account kind of implies that $1,000 doesn't mean anything

491
00:36:00,460 --> 00:36:01,460
to you.

492
00:36:01,460 --> 00:36:04,500
So we could really market cars to them or something.

493
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:10,460
Presumably also, and I guess this is the thing where the UTXO thing doesn't matter so much.

494
00:36:10,460 --> 00:36:13,300
For memory, it is in that paper as well.

495
00:36:13,300 --> 00:36:16,940
But it's also like they obviously care a lot about who you're transacting with.

496
00:36:16,940 --> 00:36:22,500
Like that's one of the key, the other key things they really, really want to know, which

497
00:36:22,500 --> 00:36:24,660
is really interesting.

498
00:36:24,660 --> 00:36:29,300
So in India, WhatsApp itself has like payment features.

499
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:34,060
So at least for like a billion something people, they already know who's paying whom

500
00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:38,380
through what you can just in the chat request for money and it goes directly through the

501
00:36:38,380 --> 00:36:39,380
app.

502
00:36:39,380 --> 00:36:40,380
Yep.

503
00:36:40,380 --> 00:36:41,380
Same with Apple Pay and everything else, right?

504
00:36:41,380 --> 00:36:44,980
Yeah, that feature existed before they bought WhatsApp.

505
00:36:44,980 --> 00:36:52,540
No, so the Indian financial system has this API interface called UPI.

506
00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:56,060
So any app can implement that and it'll connect to your bank account.

507
00:36:56,060 --> 00:37:02,260
So it came out in 2017 or something, I think by then WhatsApp was already bought.

508
00:37:02,260 --> 00:37:03,260
That's really, really interesting.

509
00:37:03,260 --> 00:37:06,780
So it wasn't even something that they were like, holy shit, this is potentially insanely

510
00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:09,860
valuable, like baked into WhatsApp.

511
00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:11,900
We can just reach a billion people with payments.

512
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:15,020
They were like, no, no, we're actually going to implement them out.

513
00:37:15,020 --> 00:37:19,660
So is it just that the regulators in India are friendly to that use case they were able

514
00:37:19,660 --> 00:37:23,300
to implement it there where they maybe don't tell us where or?

515
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:26,260
No, I think it goes via banks.

516
00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:32,460
So you need to like have a partnership with banks to use their version of UPI accounting

517
00:37:32,460 --> 00:37:33,460
system.

518
00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:37,300
I'm not super sure how it works, but I think WhatsApp did that in India because we chat

519
00:37:37,300 --> 00:37:40,220
already had something like that and they were like, oh, we could do something similar

520
00:37:40,220 --> 00:37:44,260
again, especially when the APIs are open and anybody can build on it.

521
00:37:44,260 --> 00:37:45,620
I mean, that makes sense.

522
00:37:45,620 --> 00:37:51,420
We chat is absolutely, when we're in China, we chat is just absolutely fucking everywhere.

523
00:37:51,420 --> 00:37:52,420
It's crazy.

524
00:37:52,420 --> 00:37:55,540
Well, you're required to install it now, aren't you?

525
00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:56,540
Maybe.

526
00:37:56,540 --> 00:38:01,540
My former roommate is from China and I think the last time he went there, he like, they

527
00:38:01,540 --> 00:38:04,140
would not lent of enter until he installed it on his phone.

528
00:38:04,140 --> 00:38:05,140
Wow.

529
00:38:05,140 --> 00:38:07,380
I think it's a we chat.

530
00:38:07,380 --> 00:38:11,020
So customs can reach them or immigration, maybe?

531
00:38:11,020 --> 00:38:12,020
Probably.

532
00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:13,500
Yeah, probably some way of just, yeah.

533
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:15,020
I just remember this.

534
00:38:15,020 --> 00:38:21,220
I've seen like 2018, I think it was just, it was literally at the, it was the same week

535
00:38:21,220 --> 00:38:26,700
of the people's Congress where Cheejin Ping basically went, yeah, I'm essentially going

536
00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:28,500
to be here for life lads.

537
00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:29,500
See you later.

538
00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:32,980
And literally the internet was, everything was locked down.

539
00:38:32,980 --> 00:38:36,980
You couldn't like get on anything.

540
00:38:36,980 --> 00:38:40,300
And Dumley, I just, I didn't take it, well, it's smartly or dumbly.

541
00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:44,700
I didn't take a laptop because I was like, don't want to take a laptop.

542
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:46,380
That seems like a really dumb idea.

543
00:38:46,380 --> 00:38:47,940
So I didn't have a VPN.

544
00:38:47,940 --> 00:38:52,260
I just had like my shitty old like back then I didn't really have a smartphone either.

545
00:38:52,260 --> 00:38:56,580
So it was just like, it was like the shitest oldest sort of smartphone.

546
00:38:56,580 --> 00:38:57,980
In 2018?

547
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:02,620
Yeah, like I just, I would just like get hand me down phones or things.

548
00:39:02,620 --> 00:39:05,100
I just like, I really didn't, I was not into it.

549
00:39:05,100 --> 00:39:06,100
Anyway, whatever.

550
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:08,100
So, you're so absurd, man.

551
00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:09,100
I know, right?

552
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:11,100
It was fucking impossible to get.

553
00:39:11,100 --> 00:39:13,460
You just carried her on a chalkboard and abacus.

554
00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:14,460
Yeah, exactly.

555
00:39:14,460 --> 00:39:15,940
Fuck your fucking phones.

556
00:39:15,940 --> 00:39:18,260
2018, it's not like it was the launch of the iPhone.

557
00:39:18,260 --> 00:39:19,900
It was 11 years later.

558
00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:20,900
Hey man.

559
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:21,900
Whatever, man.

560
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:24,140
I got my, I wasn't spending big bucks and something.

561
00:39:24,140 --> 00:39:25,620
I got my StarTac and shit.

562
00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:26,620
I don't need that shit.

563
00:39:26,620 --> 00:39:27,620
Whips is cute.

564
00:39:27,620 --> 00:39:29,620
He's a typewriter out of the coffee shop.

565
00:39:29,620 --> 00:39:36,180
I bought the fucking actual like expensive smartphone ones, right?

566
00:39:36,180 --> 00:39:43,340
I got it home, knocked it off the fucking table like two days later and fucking smashed

567
00:39:43,340 --> 00:39:44,860
on the floor and was fucked.

568
00:39:44,860 --> 00:39:50,060
And it was like not in, it was like just outside of like, you can basically it was like, you

569
00:39:50,060 --> 00:39:51,340
got to have to pay to repair this.

570
00:39:51,340 --> 00:39:52,860
And then pay to repair it was like 200 quid.

571
00:39:52,860 --> 00:39:54,660
And I was like, literally can't afford that.

572
00:39:54,660 --> 00:39:56,620
So I just have great luck.

573
00:39:56,620 --> 00:40:04,380
Baby cases, yeah, I was like, text people like, or whatever, man, like this is bullshit.

574
00:40:04,380 --> 00:40:06,500
My green bubbles, man.

575
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:07,500
Yeah.

576
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:08,500
There you go.

577
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:09,740
Ben Davis in the chat.

578
00:40:09,740 --> 00:40:12,660
Nokia 3310 does a whole trip to China on one charge.

579
00:40:12,660 --> 00:40:15,140
That is the kind of tech we need.

580
00:40:15,140 --> 00:40:20,060
3310, 3310 is the spicy little one.

581
00:40:20,060 --> 00:40:21,060
That's right.

582
00:40:21,060 --> 00:40:23,300
I mean, you can also beat someone to death with that thing.

583
00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:25,540
So I mean, it's multifaceted.

584
00:40:25,540 --> 00:40:30,340
I had a 7110 and that was the cool one because then that was the one they then used in the

585
00:40:30,340 --> 00:40:32,140
matrix and you were like, shit.

586
00:40:32,140 --> 00:40:33,300
I had that phone.

587
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:34,700
I imported that phone actually.

588
00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:36,620
I used it for like six months or something like that.

589
00:40:36,620 --> 00:40:37,620
Such a great phone.

590
00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:41,780
And then they had the button and the whole front side clicked down and you were like,

591
00:40:41,780 --> 00:40:43,980
you're like, I'm a legend speaking.

592
00:40:43,980 --> 00:40:46,180
I mean, I was like, I think it was awesome.

593
00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:47,180
Ten years old.

594
00:40:47,180 --> 00:40:48,180
Like Neo.

595
00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:49,180
Yeah, it could have been ten years old.

596
00:40:49,180 --> 00:40:50,780
I wouldn't have had a mobile phone.

597
00:40:50,780 --> 00:40:53,620
Whatever age I was, you're like, I'm cool.

598
00:40:53,620 --> 00:40:58,260
You know, like literally at that age, the phone is the size of your head.

599
00:40:58,260 --> 00:41:00,460
You look like a fucking penis.

600
00:41:00,460 --> 00:41:04,700
Anyway, the point was it was really, really hot.

601
00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:09,500
Like if you need to just like Google something or like look up like something really minor

602
00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:14,220
or you'll find a map, like you don't realize how even fucking chocolate like me, you don't

603
00:41:14,220 --> 00:41:17,220
realize how like completely dependent you are on that stuff.

604
00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:19,620
And so it's all completely blocked and you don't have any of it.

605
00:41:19,620 --> 00:41:21,540
You're just like, shit.

606
00:41:21,540 --> 00:41:27,100
It's a good thing I threw a map in with our guidebook said to my partner, kind of that

607
00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:30,340
you're like, well, let's find out what the fuck we're going to do.

608
00:41:30,340 --> 00:41:31,540
And that's like, yeah.

609
00:41:31,540 --> 00:41:35,940
Well, I mean, online maps don't actually work for China, right?

610
00:41:35,940 --> 00:41:39,700
My understanding is like if you try and go over there, everything is completely obfuscated.

611
00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:43,020
Like if you scroll over to Google maps and like go to Hong Kong and like follow the Hong

612
00:41:43,020 --> 00:41:47,860
Kong Bridge back to China, like roads to start like moving.

613
00:41:47,860 --> 00:41:48,860
Yeah.

614
00:41:48,860 --> 00:41:51,300
There's loads of stuff that's just totally bust.

615
00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:56,460
It was like less busted at some point and it's become more busted over time because

616
00:41:56,460 --> 00:41:58,780
of obvious reasons.

617
00:41:58,780 --> 00:42:01,500
But yeah, it was a very strange time.

618
00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:07,500
But the thing that really stuck is back to the fucking long rambling, but to a right

619
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:13,500
way point was this was around the time when sort of that's whole social capital, social

620
00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:17,740
credit, whatever it was that I can't remember the exact technical name of it.

621
00:42:17,740 --> 00:42:23,580
Things started happening like really widespread in China, which and before shortly after that

622
00:42:23,580 --> 00:42:30,580
and it was really weird because you literally like you can be served by somebody and literally

623
00:42:30,580 --> 00:42:33,740
as you're talking to them, there's like a thing in front of them where you can rate

624
00:42:33,740 --> 00:42:38,180
them and it has like an actual impact on not only their work, but also potentially their

625
00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:40,940
life outside of work.

626
00:42:40,940 --> 00:42:45,740
And people will literally be like a train station buying tickets and be like unhappy while

627
00:42:45,740 --> 00:42:48,820
they're talking to the...

628
00:42:48,820 --> 00:42:49,940
That's too much pressure for me.

629
00:42:49,940 --> 00:42:53,620
So like I like to rate things and take photos of things on like Google Maps, right?

630
00:42:53,620 --> 00:42:57,420
So like for the next people, they'll know if there's rum in place sucks or not.

631
00:42:57,420 --> 00:43:02,220
Well, even for that, I have a hard time not giving like above like a three unless it's

632
00:43:02,220 --> 00:43:03,820
like really egregious.

633
00:43:03,820 --> 00:43:08,260
Like I'll just like I'll start at five and like take things away starting with like potentially

634
00:43:08,260 --> 00:43:09,700
affecting their life.

635
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:10,700
Absolutely not.

636
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:11,860
I don't want any of that pressure.

637
00:43:11,860 --> 00:43:13,300
I don't want that responsibility.

638
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:14,300
I'm out.

639
00:43:14,300 --> 00:43:17,740
I don't need such a thing as a five star review or one star review, right?

640
00:43:17,740 --> 00:43:22,100
Because people are just like inherently bad at actually reviewing things.

641
00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:25,060
Like honestly, nobody wants to be a dick.

642
00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:30,460
It's like, look, okay, most stuff in life is not very good.

643
00:43:30,460 --> 00:43:37,060
Like inherently like you can see like the greatest fucking sunset and nine out of 10,

644
00:43:37,060 --> 00:43:38,060
right?

645
00:43:38,060 --> 00:43:39,780
I mean, a nine out of 10 is probably pretty strong.

646
00:43:39,780 --> 00:43:43,300
It's probably more like an for the average person like the best sunset you've ever seen

647
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:44,300
in your life, right?

648
00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:48,020
You probably be like will probably be in the grand scheme of things like a seven out

649
00:43:48,020 --> 00:43:49,020
of 10, maybe.

650
00:43:49,020 --> 00:43:50,980
But people will be like, that's amazing.

651
00:43:50,980 --> 00:43:54,060
You're like, I mean, it's fine.

652
00:43:54,060 --> 00:43:55,540
It's all relative though, right?

653
00:43:55,540 --> 00:43:58,660
Like great ramen in Beaverton is not.

654
00:43:58,660 --> 00:43:59,660
Well, hold on.

655
00:43:59,660 --> 00:44:03,700
We do have one place called Yuzu that's like having been to Japan a couple of times.

656
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:07,460
It's still like it's really good, but it's all relative, right?

657
00:44:07,460 --> 00:44:10,780
Like I can give a five star place to Beaverton and I'll have the same expectations of a five

658
00:44:10,780 --> 00:44:13,540
star ramen place in Japan.

659
00:44:13,540 --> 00:44:15,380
Similarly for basically all things.

660
00:44:15,380 --> 00:44:16,380
Yeah.

661
00:44:16,380 --> 00:44:17,380
I mean, okay, fair enough.

662
00:44:17,380 --> 00:44:18,380
I will.

663
00:44:18,380 --> 00:44:24,380
But then everything is relative as a get out is like, well, yes, everything is relative.

664
00:44:24,380 --> 00:44:25,380
Yes.

665
00:44:25,380 --> 00:44:26,380
Yeah.

666
00:44:26,380 --> 00:44:30,060
I like the idea of everything is either everything is either awesome or it sucks.

667
00:44:30,060 --> 00:44:31,060
Let's just get down to that.

668
00:44:31,060 --> 00:44:32,060
That's it.

669
00:44:32,060 --> 00:44:33,340
That's like that's cosmos governance.

670
00:44:33,340 --> 00:44:35,300
Either it's a yes or no of veto.

671
00:44:35,300 --> 00:44:37,500
Get rid of no and get rid of abstain.

672
00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:40,300
Either it's amazing or F you, right?

673
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:42,940
No, okay.

674
00:44:42,940 --> 00:44:44,500
That's the jaded world that we live in, right?

675
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:45,500
There's no fucking gray.

676
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:48,620
It's all black or white and just right to be fair, right?

677
00:44:48,620 --> 00:44:55,260
I now live with a tiny human who also only has yes and no with veto as options.

678
00:44:55,260 --> 00:44:56,260
That's true.

679
00:44:56,260 --> 00:44:59,140
He does and life looks simpler to me.

680
00:44:59,140 --> 00:45:02,260
I'm like, wait, hang on.

681
00:45:02,260 --> 00:45:07,220
I think the fucking tiny human has worked it out quicker than the big human.

682
00:45:07,220 --> 00:45:08,220
It's amazing.

683
00:45:08,220 --> 00:45:10,660
It should just be yes or no with veto.

684
00:45:10,660 --> 00:45:13,420
I'm imagining that like, I'm happy.

685
00:45:13,420 --> 00:45:20,420
No, I'm unhappy and you're like, okay, does it need to be more complicated than that?

686
00:45:20,420 --> 00:45:24,940
I'm imagining that like Jedi meme where it's like the beginning of the bell is like some

687
00:45:24,940 --> 00:45:28,340
guy with his head caved in and he's like, there are two options.

688
00:45:28,340 --> 00:45:29,340
Yes and no.

689
00:45:29,340 --> 00:45:31,680
And then the top of the bell, it's like four options.

690
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,740
Yes, no, no, no, I'm staying.

691
00:45:33,740 --> 00:45:38,540
And then the end of the bell is the Jedi where it's just yes and no with veto.

692
00:45:38,540 --> 00:45:39,540
That's it.

693
00:45:39,540 --> 00:45:40,540
I agree.

694
00:45:40,540 --> 00:45:44,260
I like that meme described verbally.

695
00:45:44,260 --> 00:45:46,780
We might have to make it for the Twitter later.

696
00:45:46,780 --> 00:45:48,260
I did my best.

697
00:45:48,260 --> 00:45:50,420
No, no, no, no.

698
00:45:50,420 --> 00:45:51,420
I got it.

699
00:45:51,420 --> 00:45:52,420
I was with you there the whole way.

700
00:45:52,420 --> 00:45:54,420
I was like, that's fucking great.

701
00:45:54,420 --> 00:45:57,860
That was a black mirror episode, wasn't it?

702
00:45:57,860 --> 00:45:59,460
The yeah, it's what it was, right?

703
00:45:59,460 --> 00:46:01,980
The one where like she like you can real time.

704
00:46:01,980 --> 00:46:02,980
Yeah.

705
00:46:02,980 --> 00:46:03,980
Social credit one.

706
00:46:03,980 --> 00:46:04,980
Yeah.

707
00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:05,980
Yeah.

708
00:46:05,980 --> 00:46:06,980
Social credit run, right?

709
00:46:06,980 --> 00:46:07,980
Like, oh, I didn't like interaction.

710
00:46:07,980 --> 00:46:09,260
You like walking around because it was like real time, right?

711
00:46:09,260 --> 00:46:11,860
You could have an interaction with somebody and you should turn around and it was like

712
00:46:11,860 --> 00:46:12,860
one star.

713
00:46:12,860 --> 00:46:15,700
Yeah, it was crazy.

714
00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:19,260
Like the way she goes mad at the end is probably didn't happen.

715
00:46:19,260 --> 00:46:20,260
Yeah.

716
00:46:20,260 --> 00:46:24,140
Anyway, we're just black mirror does a thing happens in real life later.

717
00:46:24,140 --> 00:46:27,420
Like the prime minister fucking a pig.

718
00:46:27,420 --> 00:46:28,420
That's the other one.

719
00:46:28,420 --> 00:46:30,500
That's the famous one in the UK anyway.

720
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:31,500
Sunset's going down here.

721
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:32,500
Fucking zero stars.

722
00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:33,500
Fucking garbage.

723
00:46:33,500 --> 00:46:34,500
No with veto on the sunset.

724
00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:35,500
No with veto the sunset.

725
00:46:35,500 --> 00:46:36,500
Exactly.

726
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:41,500
I think you know what?

727
00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:46,540
We should just get, we should, I know we haven't even fucking got the your pup shilled down

728
00:46:46,540 --> 00:46:50,700
t-shirt sorted yet, but we should do, I mean, we have great merch ideas.

729
00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:54,940
We never do, but we should just get a t-shirt just says yes on the front and no with veto

730
00:46:54,940 --> 00:46:55,940
on the back.

731
00:46:55,940 --> 00:46:57,500
That'd be fucking great.

732
00:46:57,500 --> 00:47:00,180
I would 100% wear that to a Cosmos conference.

733
00:47:00,180 --> 00:47:03,180
I think that'd be really funny.

734
00:47:03,180 --> 00:47:06,100
But I'm not gonna make that now.

735
00:47:06,100 --> 00:47:07,740
I wanted to hear it just says no with veto.

736
00:47:07,740 --> 00:47:08,740
That's all I want.

737
00:47:08,740 --> 00:47:09,740
I don't even want the yes.

738
00:47:09,740 --> 00:47:11,100
I just want no with veto on it and just fuck it.

739
00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:12,900
Just no with veto and just walk in with it.

740
00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:17,140
Do you think that no with veto, the game of notes for I would wear that.

741
00:47:17,140 --> 00:47:18,140
That's it.

742
00:47:18,140 --> 00:47:19,140
Right.

743
00:47:19,140 --> 00:47:20,140
That's actually, I mean, yeah, that's all that.

744
00:47:20,140 --> 00:47:21,140
I like that one.

745
00:47:21,140 --> 00:47:22,140
Just no with veto.

746
00:47:22,140 --> 00:47:23,140
That's it.

747
00:47:23,140 --> 00:47:24,140
Let's do it.

748
00:47:24,140 --> 00:47:28,540
Actually for the Cosmos proposal with for Grace, there was some validator who did a weighted

749
00:47:28,540 --> 00:47:30,300
vote between yes and no with veto.

750
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:32,660
I was like, what's your reasoning there?

751
00:47:32,660 --> 00:47:36,220
It's half based between yes and no with veto.

752
00:47:36,220 --> 00:47:37,220
They did a weighted vote.

753
00:47:37,220 --> 00:47:40,020
Not quite a few validators who did that nowadays.

754
00:47:40,020 --> 00:47:41,020
Really?

755
00:47:41,020 --> 00:47:42,020
How do you do that?

756
00:47:42,020 --> 00:47:43,020
I didn't know you could do that.

757
00:47:43,020 --> 00:47:44,260
You know the universe brain meme?

758
00:47:44,260 --> 00:47:49,820
It's like, you know, the small brain is like yes and then the slightly bigger brain is

759
00:47:49,820 --> 00:47:51,340
like no.

760
00:47:51,340 --> 00:47:56,460
And then the bigger brain is like no with veto and then the galaxy brain, enlightenment

761
00:47:56,460 --> 00:48:00,340
brain is going like half yes, half no with veto.

762
00:48:00,340 --> 00:48:03,220
That's the meme you just described, Spoon.

763
00:48:03,220 --> 00:48:06,900
I think possibly they've just ascended.

764
00:48:06,900 --> 00:48:14,740
And we're not equipped to understand their resonance with the fine fabric of the universe.

765
00:48:14,740 --> 00:48:21,220
I mean, I'll just start doing four ways split between yes, no, no with veto for every proposal

766
00:48:21,220 --> 00:48:22,220
from the bottom.

767
00:48:22,220 --> 00:48:23,220
Wait, hang on.

768
00:48:23,220 --> 00:48:24,220
You're right.

769
00:48:24,220 --> 00:48:25,980
There's another level that you can ascend further.

770
00:48:25,980 --> 00:48:28,620
You can piss everybody off on Twitter at the same time.

771
00:48:28,620 --> 00:48:32,580
That's really what I want in governance is how do I make everyone angry?

772
00:48:32,580 --> 00:48:34,780
That's actually, that's it, right?

773
00:48:34,780 --> 00:48:35,780
You vote all four.

774
00:48:35,780 --> 00:48:36,780
How do you do that?

775
00:48:36,780 --> 00:48:37,780
Just for everything.

776
00:48:37,780 --> 00:48:39,420
Is this a four ways?

777
00:48:39,420 --> 00:48:40,420
I want to know.

778
00:48:40,420 --> 00:48:41,420
You got to show me how to do that.

779
00:48:41,420 --> 00:48:42,420
I want to do that.

780
00:48:42,420 --> 00:48:43,900
That's perfect cosmos governance.

781
00:48:43,900 --> 00:48:45,260
This is what we can use noise for.

782
00:48:45,260 --> 00:48:49,740
We can randomize our four way split.

783
00:48:49,740 --> 00:48:53,700
So you vote all four and you let noise pick out the percentages.

784
00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:56,860
Just decide which one.

785
00:48:56,860 --> 00:48:58,860
I should kind of want to write that smart contract.

786
00:48:58,860 --> 00:49:00,900
We're fucking getting somewhere now in this podcast.

787
00:49:00,900 --> 00:49:04,100
That sounds like an interesting idea.

788
00:49:04,100 --> 00:49:08,260
Combine with the drill tweet on each one of those.

789
00:49:08,260 --> 00:49:11,300
What the fuck is going on?

790
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:14,780
We need to be able to drill Oracle to get the tweets.

791
00:49:14,780 --> 00:49:15,980
Drill Oracle to get the tweet.

792
00:49:15,980 --> 00:49:16,980
This might be a chain, right?

793
00:49:16,980 --> 00:49:17,980
We're kind of approaching.

794
00:49:17,980 --> 00:49:19,980
Yeah, we just, we just looked.

795
00:49:19,980 --> 00:49:24,420
Yeah, it's a shit chain, complete piece of shit chain.

796
00:49:24,420 --> 00:49:28,940
But all it does is vote all four votes with random drill tweets and random percentages

797
00:49:28,940 --> 00:49:31,220
based on noise.

798
00:49:31,220 --> 00:49:33,220
And I'll see you when merch.

799
00:49:33,220 --> 00:49:36,380
I absolutely resent that.

800
00:49:36,380 --> 00:49:38,260
What would it been say?

801
00:49:38,260 --> 00:49:41,980
You guys should merge like Pup most ships daps.

802
00:49:41,980 --> 00:49:43,780
That is not true.

803
00:49:43,780 --> 00:49:46,540
Usurper actually got stickers.

804
00:49:46,540 --> 00:49:51,220
So that there is shipping some merch just because you didn't get it.

805
00:49:51,220 --> 00:49:52,660
It doesn't mean it didn't happen.

806
00:49:52,660 --> 00:49:53,660
And I have one of those stickers.

807
00:49:53,660 --> 00:49:54,660
I know they exist.

808
00:49:54,660 --> 00:49:57,820
I am, I, it's, yeah.

809
00:49:57,820 --> 00:50:00,740
Then email, email, email the show.

810
00:50:00,740 --> 00:50:03,180
Give us an address, send some shit.

811
00:50:03,180 --> 00:50:05,300
So a weird thing happened, right?

812
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:13,900
Which was that a small child saw the shiny sticker on my laptop and noticed that I had

813
00:50:13,900 --> 00:50:17,980
some more in my notepad because I just, I have like conference stickers and stuff just

814
00:50:17,980 --> 00:50:20,340
in my notepad in the back and they're kind of spilled out.

815
00:50:20,340 --> 00:50:22,140
I was just like, kind of doing my thing.

816
00:50:22,140 --> 00:50:23,140
Yeah.

817
00:50:23,140 --> 00:50:24,140
The pad was there.

818
00:50:24,140 --> 00:50:26,100
And they were just like, do you have more of those stickers?

819
00:50:26,100 --> 00:50:28,500
And I was like, yes, I do.

820
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:30,020
And who's, what do you think about small child?

821
00:50:30,020 --> 00:50:31,020
What was that?

822
00:50:31,020 --> 00:50:32,020
It was, what are you talking about?

823
00:50:32,020 --> 00:50:35,380
The, you know, the, the, the, the shiny, we're going to jail sticker.

824
00:50:35,380 --> 00:50:36,380
Yeah, sure.

825
00:50:36,380 --> 00:50:37,380
Yeah.

826
00:50:37,380 --> 00:50:38,380
Yeah.

827
00:50:38,380 --> 00:50:42,420
And, and essentially had the small child asked me for one and I was like, here you go.

828
00:50:42,420 --> 00:50:43,820
Oh, oh, I got you.

829
00:50:43,820 --> 00:50:44,820
Okay.

830
00:50:44,820 --> 00:50:45,820
Okay.

831
00:50:45,820 --> 00:50:46,820
I thought you're a small child.

832
00:50:46,820 --> 00:50:47,820
I was like, what are you talking about?

833
00:50:47,820 --> 00:50:48,820
Like, is this kid asking for stickers?

834
00:50:48,820 --> 00:50:51,820
How advanced is this for a kid?

835
00:50:51,820 --> 00:50:52,820
Another small human.

836
00:50:52,820 --> 00:50:53,820
Okay.

837
00:50:53,820 --> 00:50:54,820
We're just like, wow, it's a dog.

838
00:50:54,820 --> 00:50:55,820
That's really exciting.

839
00:50:55,820 --> 00:50:58,820
I was like, I have a small child.

840
00:50:58,820 --> 00:51:00,820
Yeah, of course they can have one.

841
00:51:00,820 --> 00:51:01,820
Sure.

842
00:51:01,820 --> 00:51:02,820
Why not?

843
00:51:02,820 --> 00:51:04,820
You know, it gets so bad, little buddy.

844
00:51:04,820 --> 00:51:05,820
Yeah.

845
00:51:05,820 --> 00:51:13,820
And then I see the, the, the Barney, there's a big old Barney in the, in the Juno telegram

846
00:51:13,820 --> 00:51:20,820
where I think Pup Moss has got thrown out of Chihuahua, like socials or something like

847
00:51:20,820 --> 00:51:21,820
that.

848
00:51:21,820 --> 00:51:22,820
For what?

849
00:51:22,820 --> 00:51:26,820
I don't know, non-delivery of, I don't really know.

850
00:51:26,820 --> 00:51:28,820
I don't, I haven't followed this drama.

851
00:51:28,820 --> 00:51:31,820
I just am all vaguely aware that that has happened.

852
00:51:31,820 --> 00:51:37,120
And then there was just like, it all got very knives out, like in the channels that they

853
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:38,820
were still in kind of thing.

854
00:51:38,820 --> 00:51:44,820
And like, Ramo is going like full Australian fighting around the world.

855
00:51:44,820 --> 00:51:50,820
And it was, was pretty much, it was, you know, it, it was the equivalent of come over here,

856
00:51:50,820 --> 00:51:53,820
take a shirt off and let's go fight outside in the dusty street.

857
00:51:53,820 --> 00:51:57,820
You know, it was, it was full waking fry invitation.

858
00:51:57,820 --> 00:52:02,820
I'll meet you in the churchyard parking lot kind of thing.

859
00:52:02,820 --> 00:52:08,820
It was, it was like, it was like South Park level of, of, of kind of dumb.

860
00:52:08,820 --> 00:52:14,820
But like, to be fair, it was very funny and Ramo like, Ramo was great.

861
00:52:14,820 --> 00:52:15,820
But yeah, that was that.

862
00:52:15,820 --> 00:52:20,820
That's the only real drama I've seen this week was, was Pup Moss getting called out and not

863
00:52:20,820 --> 00:52:21,820
shipping stuff.

864
00:52:21,820 --> 00:52:23,820
And then getting really pissed off at Ramo.

865
00:52:23,820 --> 00:52:30,820
And Ramo was like, yeah, if you, if you, if you're going to bark Pup Moss, make sure you

866
00:52:30,820 --> 00:52:31,820
can buy.

867
00:52:31,820 --> 00:52:34,820
Geez, getting rough in the bear.

868
00:52:34,820 --> 00:52:36,820
No, no, that was great.

869
00:52:36,820 --> 00:52:38,820
Nerds fighting over shit coins.

870
00:52:38,820 --> 00:52:39,820
That's fucking bad.

871
00:52:39,820 --> 00:52:41,820
Intense fighting.

872
00:52:41,820 --> 00:52:42,820
Fucking.

873
00:52:42,820 --> 00:52:43,820
Yeah.

874
00:52:43,820 --> 00:52:44,820
Oh man.

875
00:52:44,820 --> 00:52:51,820
So, but also, you know, we had the, we had the, that, can we just recognize it had the,

876
00:52:51,820 --> 00:53:00,820
I would fucking cat plus week merch, go hoops this week and much gamers only accelerating,

877
00:53:00,820 --> 00:53:06,100
you know, so, so clearly, clearly individual people on this podcast can arrange and sort

878
00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:07,220
out merch.

879
00:53:07,220 --> 00:53:12,120
Dad's not wearing his, um, I didn't wear hats this week because I got so fucking railed

880
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:13,120
last week.

881
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:14,820
I'm not wearing a hat all the time.

882
00:53:14,820 --> 00:53:17,820
I was, I was, were you wearing it literally before?

883
00:53:17,820 --> 00:53:18,940
I was I was in the ground.

884
00:53:18,940 --> 00:53:24,300
I was making shelves for something and I'm out there and like a shirt with my hand on and nulls call me out.

885
00:53:24,380 --> 00:53:26,380
I'm like, fuck.

886
00:53:26,860 --> 00:53:28,300
Literally got the hell. Yeah.

887
00:53:28,300 --> 00:53:29,900
He's in the fucking house wearing a hat.

888
00:53:29,900 --> 00:53:32,060
Yeah. I didn't know he had to wear it outside.

889
00:53:32,060 --> 00:53:32,940
I was, yeah.

890
00:53:32,940 --> 00:53:33,500
Yeah.

891
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:34,220
He's got.

892
00:53:34,220 --> 00:53:36,220
He didn't even hear me defend myself.

893
00:53:36,220 --> 00:53:38,300
We kicked him off the podcast because of it, too.

894
00:53:38,300 --> 00:53:39,500
Did America just get nuked?

895
00:53:40,620 --> 00:53:41,260
Why would it happen?

896
00:53:41,260 --> 00:53:41,500
What?

897
00:53:41,500 --> 00:53:42,060
Out.

898
00:53:42,060 --> 00:53:42,700
Video flash?

899
00:53:42,700 --> 00:53:44,620
Both the Americans froze.

900
00:53:44,620 --> 00:53:45,740
Oh, it could be.

901
00:53:45,740 --> 00:53:47,740
I was like, was that the

902
00:53:47,740 --> 00:53:49,340
MP of a.

903
00:53:49,340 --> 00:53:49,980
It could be. Yeah.

904
00:53:49,980 --> 00:53:51,020
It might be at its way here.

905
00:53:51,020 --> 00:53:51,580
I don't know.

906
00:53:51,580 --> 00:53:52,700
Well, I guess you'd find out.

907
00:53:52,700 --> 00:53:53,580
Well, I mean, whatever.

908
00:53:53,580 --> 00:53:56,140
You have an emerging broadcast system anyway.

909
00:53:56,140 --> 00:53:57,020
So.

910
00:53:57,020 --> 00:53:58,060
We do.

911
00:53:58,060 --> 00:53:58,940
Whoa. Hold on.

912
00:53:58,940 --> 00:54:00,060
I have a moment about that.

913
00:54:00,860 --> 00:54:03,180
So my wife is from West Mifflin, right?

914
00:54:03,820 --> 00:54:05,980
They have reused their World War II.

915
00:54:06,620 --> 00:54:07,580
Outside of Pittsburgh.

916
00:54:07,580 --> 00:54:08,060
Yeah.

917
00:54:08,060 --> 00:54:08,780
Okay.

918
00:54:08,780 --> 00:54:10,700
They have reused their World War II like

919
00:54:11,260 --> 00:54:14,220
air raid sirens as like a 10 o'clock curfew siren.

920
00:54:14,940 --> 00:54:15,100
So.

921
00:54:15,100 --> 00:54:17,100
Are you sure it's a curfew siren?

922
00:54:17,100 --> 00:54:19,100
It is a curfew siren.

923
00:54:19,100 --> 00:54:19,260
Yes.

924
00:54:19,260 --> 00:54:21,260
It happens at 10 o'clock every night.

925
00:54:21,260 --> 00:54:23,100
Do you know where your kids are?

926
00:54:23,100 --> 00:54:24,300
Yeah, that kind of thing.

927
00:54:24,300 --> 00:54:26,300
So we were there like a year ago.

928
00:54:26,300 --> 00:54:27,260
That's a good.

929
00:54:27,260 --> 00:54:30,460
I don't know if it's like mandated curfew, but regardless,

930
00:54:30,460 --> 00:54:31,820
it's an air raid siren.

931
00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:34,140
And I went to bed early one time because I was like,

932
00:54:34,140 --> 00:54:37,020
I don't know, jet lagged or something, like nine.

933
00:54:37,020 --> 00:54:39,660
And then I got woken up by an air raid siren thinking like

934
00:54:40,220 --> 00:54:41,340
war was happening or something.

935
00:54:41,340 --> 00:54:43,340
I didn't realize because my first time there

936
00:54:43,340 --> 00:54:44,780
had about panic attack.

937
00:54:44,780 --> 00:54:45,740
Pure raging.

938
00:54:45,740 --> 00:54:46,940
I mean, pure raging.

939
00:54:46,940 --> 00:54:48,540
So sorry.

940
00:54:48,540 --> 00:54:48,860
Sorry.

941
00:54:48,860 --> 00:54:51,420
I just need to continue the merch shilling.

942
00:54:51,420 --> 00:54:51,820
Oh yeah.

943
00:54:51,820 --> 00:54:52,780
Here we go.

944
00:54:52,780 --> 00:54:53,580
Part two.

945
00:54:53,580 --> 00:54:54,620
Part two.

946
00:54:54,620 --> 00:54:55,420
I do like that shirt.

947
00:54:55,420 --> 00:54:55,900
The shirt's cool.

948
00:54:55,900 --> 00:54:56,540
It's great.

949
00:54:56,540 --> 00:54:57,100
Yeah.

950
00:54:57,100 --> 00:54:57,420
It's good.

951
00:54:57,420 --> 00:54:57,580
Yeah.

952
00:54:58,300 --> 00:55:03,180
It kind of reminds me of the robot from the anime Fooly Cooley.

953
00:55:03,180 --> 00:55:04,300
And I mean that in the best way.

954
00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:07,020
I'll have to dig that up.

955
00:55:07,020 --> 00:55:07,180
Yeah.

956
00:55:07,180 --> 00:55:09,420
It's I guess, I guess there's a lot of different things

957
00:55:09,420 --> 00:55:11,500
that are going on there, but obviously kick ass design.

958
00:55:11,500 --> 00:55:15,180
The same design that did the the howl stuff.

959
00:55:15,180 --> 00:55:17,580
It almost looks like he's holding on to your nipples.

960
00:55:17,580 --> 00:55:20,940
If you stand up like this guy, he's just got, he's just, yeah,

961
00:55:20,940 --> 00:55:21,820
he's just holding them up.

962
00:55:21,820 --> 00:55:23,100
Well, I hadn't noticed that.

963
00:55:23,100 --> 00:55:24,700
And now I'm not going to say anything.

964
00:55:24,700 --> 00:55:25,980
Now you'll never unsee it.

965
00:55:25,980 --> 00:55:27,820
Again, thank you, sir.

966
00:55:27,820 --> 00:55:29,180
It was a great t-shirt.

967
00:55:29,180 --> 00:55:30,220
It was RIP.

968
00:55:30,940 --> 00:55:31,740
A great t-shirt.

969
00:55:33,660 --> 00:55:34,380
It's like the bro.

970
00:55:36,140 --> 00:55:36,460
Sorry.

971
00:55:37,580 --> 00:55:37,820
Cool.

972
00:55:38,380 --> 00:55:39,260
I didn't mean to ruin the merch.

973
00:55:39,260 --> 00:55:43,340
So, okay, we actually have another viewer question as well,

974
00:55:43,340 --> 00:55:47,740
which I want to get on to, but I'm very conscious now that it is 58 minutes in

975
00:55:47,740 --> 00:55:50,860
and we have not asked about the Cosmos Ladies,

976
00:55:50,860 --> 00:55:53,900
which we obviously should have done on International Women's Day,

977
00:55:53,900 --> 00:55:55,420
but we are now here.

978
00:55:55,980 --> 00:55:59,580
So we've already like fucking ran around the house

979
00:55:59,580 --> 00:56:01,020
about any number of different things.

980
00:56:01,020 --> 00:56:03,820
So Spoo, do you want to tell us a little bit about Cosmos Ladies?

981
00:56:04,380 --> 00:56:05,260
Yes, please.

982
00:56:05,260 --> 00:56:05,900
You're on mute.

983
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:09,100
Well, the reason I asked now if I could be there on that day

984
00:56:09,100 --> 00:56:10,460
was actually just a coincidence,

985
00:56:10,460 --> 00:56:15,820
because the very next day we were organizing like a Women in Cosmos online streaming event.

986
00:56:15,820 --> 00:56:19,100
And we actually had the CMO of Babylon,

987
00:56:19,100 --> 00:56:21,260
who talked about Babylon for like 30 minutes.

988
00:56:21,900 --> 00:56:24,460
So you could go check that out.

989
00:56:24,460 --> 00:56:27,420
And yeah, so we had a bunch of people,

990
00:56:27,420 --> 00:56:32,140
all the women in Cosmos developers and founders and NFT artists.

991
00:56:32,140 --> 00:56:36,860
We had Kate Stills, who built the smart contracting platform on Agorek.

992
00:56:36,860 --> 00:56:42,300
We also had Dora Palfi, who does like teaching young girls

993
00:56:42,300 --> 00:56:46,220
how to program in Python using like really cute programmable accessories

994
00:56:46,220 --> 00:56:49,100
for like programmable phone cases and things like that.

995
00:56:51,100 --> 00:56:54,380
And yeah, so I mean, I wanted to come to promote that,

996
00:56:54,380 --> 00:56:57,180
but the link is still in the YouTube, so you can go check that out.

997
00:56:57,180 --> 00:57:02,060
But overall, I started this thing by doing a little bit of a video

998
00:57:02,060 --> 00:57:05,020
about one and a half years ago, because at Tenement,

999
00:57:05,020 --> 00:57:07,260
I was kind of part of the recruitment pipeline,

1000
00:57:07,260 --> 00:57:10,460
and I had access to all the applications.

1001
00:57:10,460 --> 00:57:14,220
And I saw there were no women applying for the engineering roles.

1002
00:57:14,220 --> 00:57:17,180
And I was like, if nobody's applying, how can they ever get in?

1003
00:57:17,180 --> 00:57:21,180
So we do some kind of mentorship programs one-on-one

1004
00:57:21,180 --> 00:57:24,300
for women who want to migrate from web 2 to web 3,

1005
00:57:24,300 --> 00:57:26,220
or even if they're just like front-end developers,

1006
00:57:26,220 --> 00:57:30,700
how do you deal with stuff like wallets and stuff like that.

1007
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:34,780
And we run the validator because all the revenue from the validator

1008
00:57:34,780 --> 00:57:39,820
goes back to fund these things like we did a giveaway

1009
00:57:40,700 --> 00:57:45,260
for the event where we gave away three programmable accessories

1010
00:57:45,260 --> 00:57:49,340
to attendees who had young daughters or nieces.

1011
00:57:49,340 --> 00:57:52,540
So yeah, we use it to fund things like that.

1012
00:57:53,580 --> 00:57:56,060
So anything that's about it. I was also prepared.

1013
00:57:56,060 --> 00:58:01,100
So I've got a follow-up question. Once upon a time,

1014
00:58:02,780 --> 00:58:09,340
I worked on a team in a department where it was nearly 50-50 male female split

1015
00:58:09,340 --> 00:58:14,300
in engineering. And it required a huge amount of work

1016
00:58:14,300 --> 00:58:17,180
from a couple of the people who were kind of leading the department

1017
00:58:17,180 --> 00:58:19,580
who really, really did care about that a lot.

1018
00:58:19,580 --> 00:58:22,140
And it took so much effort to kind of get to that point.

1019
00:58:22,140 --> 00:58:27,100
But I obviously only really kind of know what the recruiting market was like

1020
00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:31,980
in that one particular thing, which was like developers for a corporate type situation.

1021
00:58:33,820 --> 00:58:36,620
But I remember that pipeline to find...

1022
00:58:37,740 --> 00:58:42,140
There were lots of challenges with trying to have an actually evenly balanced

1023
00:58:44,460 --> 00:58:49,020
sort of recruitment pipeline. What do you think are the challenges that are kind of

1024
00:58:49,020 --> 00:58:55,500
mainly stopping sort of more diverse people getting into that pipeline?

1025
00:58:56,380 --> 00:58:58,140
From what you've seen? What were the things?

1026
00:58:58,140 --> 00:59:02,620
Because you said it was like you weren't even seeing the applications in the first place.

1027
00:59:04,060 --> 00:59:08,060
Yeah. So I think specifically when it comes to F3, a lot of it has to do with

1028
00:59:08,620 --> 00:59:13,100
historical reasons. A lot of people came because of libertarian values.

1029
00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:17,980
And those things are usually male community-focused stuff.

1030
00:59:17,980 --> 00:59:22,300
You don't see a lot of women in those fields. And also a lot of the time,

1031
00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:26,060
like the absolute forefront of technology stuff, even in AI,

1032
00:59:27,660 --> 00:59:32,540
is just... I think there's a big lag behind because there's a lag behind in the traditional

1033
00:59:32,540 --> 00:59:36,860
tech industry as well. Because it takes a while to learn the basic tech stuff and to move on.

1034
00:59:36,860 --> 00:59:42,940
And you've got to do that step by step. And yeah, I don't think there's like an easy answer yet.

1035
00:59:42,940 --> 00:59:50,300
I think it has to kind of start at a younger age. And I remember there was a panel like this,

1036
00:59:50,300 --> 00:59:54,620
talking about this online, and somebody said, oh, it's just because guys are more into computers

1037
00:59:54,620 --> 00:59:59,580
and stuff. And that never made any sense to me. I got into programming because I was a big

1038
00:59:59,580 --> 01:00:03,820
fan of Hannah Montana, and I wanted to make a fan site for her. And that's like one of the

1039
01:00:03,820 --> 01:00:08,060
girliest ways you can get into programming. And that's how I learned JavaScript and PHP.

1040
01:00:08,060 --> 01:00:13,260
So I think this is just a path which needs to be shown. And that's why I was a big fan of giving

1041
01:00:13,260 --> 01:00:17,180
away those kind of programmable accessories. Because hey, you want to make something really

1042
01:00:17,180 --> 01:00:21,020
cute, and you want to accessorize yourself. And there's cool tech stuff you can do with that.

1043
01:00:21,020 --> 01:00:24,780
You can't do programmable accessories outside of learning programming.

1044
01:00:26,940 --> 01:00:31,580
Yeah, no, I can weigh on this a little bit. One, it's historically not true that

1045
01:00:31,580 --> 01:00:38,780
it's like males are more interested in it. It used to be that until the 70s, that it was largely

1046
01:00:38,780 --> 01:00:40,940
women that did software, which is really interesting.

1047
01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:44,620
Have you seen the film Hidden Figures?

1048
01:00:44,620 --> 01:00:47,740
Yeah, that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where it was basically all...

1049
01:00:47,740 --> 01:00:54,060
It was a transition from people who did mathematics, like the computers. And then when they had

1050
01:00:54,700 --> 01:01:00,220
computers that did software, they were like, ah, well, the women who do the maths will probably

1051
01:01:00,220 --> 01:01:08,620
be good at the computers. And so... And then I mean, the Apollo 11 guidance computer run time

1052
01:01:08,620 --> 01:01:13,820
was really quiet. Yeah, Margaret Hamilton with the picture with all these pages of code.

1053
01:01:13,820 --> 01:01:18,620
Yeah, I'm pretty sure there was a picture of that somewhere in an office I worked in. And I was just

1054
01:01:18,620 --> 01:01:24,540
like, that's a lot of code. Yeah, I mean, the original software engineer, I don't know if

1055
01:01:24,540 --> 01:01:29,100
really could call it the software engineer, was Ada Loveless, which is of course was a woman.

1056
01:01:29,100 --> 01:01:39,180
But no, I used to volunteer to teach third to fifth graders basic software. And almost universally,

1057
01:01:39,180 --> 01:01:45,340
it was like half boy, half girl. So at a young enough age, there is no distinction. It's like

1058
01:01:45,340 --> 01:01:49,580
when our culture starts getting involved, that's when the distinction starts to pop up. Because I

1059
01:01:49,580 --> 01:01:55,660
guess you as a woman shouldn't be interested in tech kind of thing. And it's a really interesting

1060
01:01:55,660 --> 01:02:01,180
problem to try and overcome. Yeah, just a personal story to do our last business.

1061
01:02:02,060 --> 01:02:06,540
Before this, we were in the mobile space and we had a development center and we had about,

1062
01:02:07,180 --> 01:02:14,380
there was probably about 50 developers in that area. It was about 30, 35% women and about 60% men,

1063
01:02:14,380 --> 01:02:18,140
which was a huge, which is a big percentage actually, I think compared to like others.

1064
01:02:18,700 --> 01:02:22,700
And we were just hiring the best people we could, didn't matter, right? We didn't care,

1065
01:02:22,700 --> 01:02:26,300
we were just trying to hire the best people we would. But one thing that we heard was that

1066
01:02:27,980 --> 01:02:34,940
sometimes female candidates were drawn to us because of the culture of having that balance.

1067
01:02:34,940 --> 01:02:42,060
And sometimes it's difficult for other organizations to grow a female component of

1068
01:02:42,060 --> 01:02:48,700
developers because the culture is so fucked and nobody wants to work there. And so I think that

1069
01:02:48,700 --> 01:02:52,940
also impacts it too. Because like if sometimes those percentages are too low, it turns into, what

1070
01:02:52,940 --> 01:02:59,260
was that? Was it in, there's a good to portrayal of that in the Uber story. Did you guys watch that

1071
01:02:59,260 --> 01:03:04,060
Uber movie or whatever the hell it was? There was a really good to portrayal of women in tech in

1072
01:03:04,060 --> 01:03:10,060
that Uber story too, as well, because the culture was so fricking backwards. And I think that happens

1073
01:03:10,060 --> 01:03:19,740
and that creates basically barriers, right? It's stupid. Yeah. Yeah, at least what I saw was that

1074
01:03:19,740 --> 01:03:26,380
it was very chicken and egg and you had to kind of have the culture just because I guess mainstream

1075
01:03:26,380 --> 01:03:32,700
tech culture was so off-putting and toxic that people had to already trust that there would

1076
01:03:32,700 --> 01:03:36,620
be a place for them to land before they would put in their application was kind of generally what

1077
01:03:36,620 --> 01:03:47,420
we saw. That was my very high-level takeaway. But on the whole, I guess, yeah, I mean, it's

1078
01:03:47,420 --> 01:03:53,020
so difficult how you build that culture. That's the thing because my experience working on a team

1079
01:03:53,020 --> 01:03:59,420
like that was that generally speaking, I would say the people who identified as female were better

1080
01:03:59,420 --> 01:04:07,100
programmers. If I had to just like say, pick a random developer by gender identity,

1081
01:04:08,220 --> 01:04:14,060
if I had to assemble a team, I would have always picked women or the people who identified as female.

1082
01:04:18,300 --> 01:04:23,180
But then the thing is maybe this because the number and the funnel is so much smaller that

1083
01:04:23,180 --> 01:04:30,860
the people who do get into it are more passionate are just more on the whole, they're kind of a

1084
01:04:30,860 --> 01:04:35,580
very selective bunch. Like, you know, when you have entrepreneurs or immigrants, as the other

1085
01:04:35,580 --> 01:04:41,420
example where you have a higher incidence of entrepreneurs among immigrants on the whole

1086
01:04:41,420 --> 01:04:46,620
because you already have people who are sort of motivated to upstitch and go somewhere.

1087
01:04:47,580 --> 01:04:51,820
Maybe there's some kind of variation of that where you're like smart women who are prepared

1088
01:04:51,820 --> 01:04:57,820
to put up with all the shit. You've got to really like, you've got to be good.

1089
01:04:59,340 --> 01:05:04,300
I don't know, I mean, I mean, Spoo, what do you think? I can't believe I'm just like fucking

1090
01:05:04,940 --> 01:05:08,460
theorizing. You're literally a woman in tech. What do you think? I'm a fucking idiot. I can't

1091
01:05:08,460 --> 01:05:12,620
believe I just literally mansplained that. I'm so sorry.

1092
01:05:15,740 --> 01:05:20,540
It's good that you're interested and it's good that everybody needs to have an opinion in this.

1093
01:05:20,540 --> 01:05:27,340
It's not just like one sector matters. But I mean, there is a lot of discrimination when it comes to

1094
01:05:27,340 --> 01:05:33,340
hiring as well. Because in India, this was a thing where if a woman who's like recently married

1095
01:05:33,340 --> 01:05:37,340
would apply, they would not hire her because she might at least soon go for maternity leave.

1096
01:05:37,340 --> 01:05:43,900
And you don't want to hire an employee who goes away for six months. And yeah, and one of the

1097
01:05:43,900 --> 01:05:49,580
most shocking things that I experienced was in Indian engineering universities, like almost

1098
01:05:49,580 --> 01:05:55,020
75% of the students are women. But then when you enter the workforce, the number just goes

1099
01:05:55,020 --> 01:06:01,180
super down. Like in my class, we had like in my in my batch in bachelor's, we had about 70

1100
01:06:01,180 --> 01:06:08,060
students out of which like almost 49 were girls. And then I enter like a company and now it's just

1101
01:06:08,060 --> 01:06:13,260
like 30 people out of which only two are women. And I think there is certainly a degree of like,

1102
01:06:13,260 --> 01:06:19,100
okay, women are caregivers. So once you do have a child, they're more likely to be the one staying

1103
01:06:19,100 --> 01:06:26,540
back at home. And it might be harder to get back into the industry as well after that, especially

1104
01:06:26,540 --> 01:06:31,260
when you know, their peers have been progressing and have been building up work experience over time

1105
01:06:31,260 --> 01:06:36,300
as well. So there is some degree of like, you need to be mindful and you might need to like,

1106
01:06:37,180 --> 01:06:43,420
intentionally hire somebody just to get the ball rolling. But but I think we're not really there

1107
01:06:43,420 --> 01:06:48,620
yet. I think there are enough talented female developers and stuff. So you I don't think there's

1108
01:06:48,620 --> 01:06:54,060
that much need for affirmative action, at least in like, you know, Western nations at least.

1109
01:06:55,180 --> 01:06:59,100
That was the thing that's really interesting there. Like obviously, I didn't do engineering

1110
01:06:59,980 --> 01:07:05,820
formally at university. But my impression, at least from people that did was that numbers are

1111
01:07:05,820 --> 01:07:11,580
much more skewed here than than what you've just described there. So I mean, I guess, I mean, kind

1112
01:07:11,580 --> 01:07:17,740
of to say something very obvious, I guess it's going to be different in different different

1113
01:07:17,740 --> 01:07:23,100
reasons and different factors in different places, right? So it sounds like at least in from your

1114
01:07:23,100 --> 01:07:27,980
experience there, like the funnel itself was, there's a lot of people at the start who obviously

1115
01:07:27,980 --> 01:07:32,140
are passionate about the thing enough to do it. But it's somehow not translating into the

1116
01:07:33,580 --> 01:07:39,420
into people actually, you know, in in industry, which is which is really that's quite strange.

1117
01:07:40,060 --> 01:07:45,260
Yeah. So there is still, I think up until my generation, at least it was really quite common

1118
01:07:45,260 --> 01:07:49,420
that women would enter the workforce. And once they have kids, they would just quit their jobs

1119
01:07:49,420 --> 01:07:54,620
and not reenter the workforce. So there's definitely a degree of if somebody is over 40,

1120
01:07:54,620 --> 01:07:59,260
then you can't really expect women to be working who are over 40 because in their generation, it

1121
01:07:59,260 --> 01:08:02,940
just was not a thing. Unless you were like financially struggling, you would probably,

1122
01:08:02,940 --> 01:08:07,020
it would be considered offensive, like, Oh, does your husband not earn enough that you have to work?

1123
01:08:07,020 --> 01:08:13,980
Like, that was the societal attitude. But in modern day, as well, like, I think there are

1124
01:08:13,980 --> 01:08:19,740
still some people who kind of just go continue on with that. Like one of my best friends in

1125
01:08:19,740 --> 01:08:23,740
college, she was like, Oh, I'm just getting a good degree. So I can like meet a, you know,

1126
01:08:23,740 --> 01:08:28,380
smart guy here. So I can just get married. Like she attended engineering just for that reason.

1127
01:08:28,940 --> 01:08:34,940
But I don't know why I got sidetracked. But anyway, so I think one of the main reasons we have a

1128
01:08:34,940 --> 01:08:39,420
lot of women in engineering in India is because engineering is not something you go into with

1129
01:08:39,420 --> 01:08:44,060
passion. It's something you're going to because it's a very easy way to get high paying jobs.

1130
01:08:44,060 --> 01:08:50,460
And that doesn't really care about what your childhood or interests were. And, and because

1131
01:08:50,460 --> 01:08:57,180
of that, once you start making enough amount of money, or maybe you're financially stable enough,

1132
01:08:57,180 --> 01:09:01,820
they might not be enough incentive to, you know, further up in the career field. Like, if I,

1133
01:09:02,380 --> 01:09:07,340
there are these kinds of companies like TCS and Infosys and stuff, which are like master

1134
01:09:07,340 --> 01:09:13,020
recruiters, and I think they have better gender employee ratio than, than like niche companies.

1135
01:09:13,900 --> 01:09:20,060
So would you say that women in India, when they're younger, like in middle school, I guess,

1136
01:09:20,060 --> 01:09:24,620
they have less interest in computing, and then they choose engineering as like the practical

1137
01:09:24,620 --> 01:09:31,180
option? Is that what you're saying? I think in general, like, even when I was in high school,

1138
01:09:31,180 --> 01:09:38,380
it was really very rare for an Indian family to have a computer at home. So again, it does not

1139
01:09:38,380 --> 01:09:41,820
come about interest because I think even the guys who were in engineering, very few of them were

1140
01:09:41,820 --> 01:09:46,860
there because of their interests, even they were there. Like, I like, many of the people who were

1141
01:09:46,860 --> 01:09:51,260
in my class were there because they couldn't get into med school. Like that was my priority. But

1142
01:09:51,260 --> 01:09:57,180
I guess engineering pays well. So I'll come and do this instead. So I think that that's the attitude

1143
01:09:57,180 --> 01:10:02,620
in like that entire generation, like, like so many people because of the tech industry boom,

1144
01:10:02,620 --> 01:10:08,060
which happened in India, it was like, just do four years of good education, get good grades,

1145
01:10:08,060 --> 01:10:12,620
you're kind of set for life. I mean, the sense like it was a smart choice then, honestly.

1146
01:10:14,060 --> 01:10:19,020
I guess I don't know what it would be quite, we, you know, we need to, we need to get Simon or

1147
01:10:19,020 --> 01:10:24,700
somebody on here, like to find out what it's like in Germany, between everybody in France,

1148
01:10:24,700 --> 01:10:31,900
because the, there's obviously a really different, so the traditionally, at least I don't know what's

1149
01:10:31,900 --> 01:10:38,940
like in the US, but in the UK, obviously, there's a heavy privilege on the humanities over the STEM

1150
01:10:38,940 --> 01:10:46,140
subjects. And it's as a result of, you guessed it, is the aristocracy our friends screwing up every

1151
01:10:46,140 --> 01:10:51,500
thing. Well, it's why they built the polytechnics wasn't it? Because they were like, we are literally

1152
01:10:51,500 --> 01:10:56,700
lagging behind in all of the practical fields. So we need to literally build a separate class of

1153
01:10:56,700 --> 01:11:03,660
university that doesn't just go the only important thing in life is the classics. And then after a

1154
01:11:03,660 --> 01:11:07,660
while, you know, it just became the case that the polytechnics will look down upon and then

1155
01:11:07,660 --> 01:11:11,420
eventually just got subsumed into the university system because people were like, well, I don't

1156
01:11:11,420 --> 01:11:16,700
want to go to polytechnic. And it was just like, well, the purpose of the entire thing has been

1157
01:11:16,700 --> 01:11:21,100
defeated. But actually, the polytechnics were a really good idea. Whereas like in Germany,

1158
01:11:21,100 --> 01:11:27,420
other places, you have like a high, you have like respect for practical applied subjects. And

1159
01:11:28,620 --> 01:11:31,820
you know, that that pays dividends, it turns out. So

1160
01:11:31,820 --> 01:11:35,740
Well, in Germany, they also have what do they have? They're like apprenticeships, right?

1161
01:11:35,740 --> 01:11:39,900
In lieu of college, if you want to, does the UK have anything like that?

1162
01:11:41,180 --> 01:11:47,900
Like, yeah, but it's there is sort of something like that. But it's, for a lot of subjects, it's

1163
01:11:47,900 --> 01:11:54,780
very half-assed. You do see it with trades, though, that is the one place where apprenticeship is

1164
01:11:54,780 --> 01:11:59,020
kind of alive and well. If you get an electrician round who's half-decent,

1165
01:11:59,020 --> 01:12:04,220
there'll probably be a spotty 15 year old, 16 year old, 16 year old, mandatory education until 16.

1166
01:12:04,220 --> 01:12:11,180
Yeah. So 16 or 17 year old in baggy electricians pants, handing them their tools. So

1167
01:12:12,780 --> 01:12:16,140
but like, but like things like, you know, like engineering, civil engineering,

1168
01:12:16,140 --> 01:12:21,660
like much less though, which is, you know, back in the day, mechanical engineering was

1169
01:12:21,660 --> 01:12:31,180
an applied apprenticeship type. Yeah. Anyway, I'm looking at the clock. This is a, I wish we had

1170
01:12:31,180 --> 01:12:35,980
gone to the subject earlier, because this is like really, really interesting. But I'm also looking

1171
01:12:35,980 --> 01:12:44,300
at the clock and I'm aware that a rugging has to come at some point. So we had a viewer question

1172
01:12:44,300 --> 01:12:49,020
from the other week, which was specifically addressed to wanting dad's opinion on this.

1173
01:12:51,660 --> 01:12:56,700
But also, I think, well, I could be wrong, but Spoon might have an opinion on this as a developer

1174
01:12:56,700 --> 01:13:00,540
as well. We're kind of, we're very developer heavy this week, which is good, because the question was

1175
01:13:00,540 --> 01:13:08,780
about development, which was essentially, we're in the context of work, but also more specifically

1176
01:13:08,780 --> 01:13:15,580
development software engineering. Should you ever work for free? And I was like,

1177
01:13:15,580 --> 01:13:20,140
that's kind of a big question. I thought that was interesting enough. I think,

1178
01:13:21,260 --> 01:13:26,620
I think it was basically asked mainly at sort of me in, well, it was, it was asked to me to ask to you.

1179
01:13:28,220 --> 01:13:32,220
You said, what was the context unit? Is there a context around a specific like project or timeline

1180
01:13:32,220 --> 01:13:37,820
or what was there anything? Just in general, the context was from a business perspective, right?

1181
01:13:37,820 --> 01:13:44,300
Yes, I think the context is like, both kind of on an individual level, let's say you're maybe

1182
01:13:44,300 --> 01:13:50,220
early on in your career, but also, I think if you're working on your own and you're maybe not,

1183
01:13:50,780 --> 01:13:54,220
if you're not trying to get a job, right, with a traditional corporate or something like that,

1184
01:13:54,780 --> 01:14:00,380
you are kind of inherently sort of a freelancer or a business. There's the roles are muddied, right?

1185
01:14:00,380 --> 01:14:05,020
So there's, there's a business aspect to your decision making that isn't just about trying to

1186
01:14:05,020 --> 01:14:13,180
get a job. So I think that's the context for like, should you ever work for free if your

1187
01:14:13,180 --> 01:14:19,420
client is Microsoft? Obviously, fucking not. I think that's the context. But in, if you're

1188
01:14:19,420 --> 01:14:25,740
essentially a freelancer, depending on your client or whatever, the context can be more muddy, right?

1189
01:14:25,740 --> 01:14:30,300
So I think that's the context which, you know, Shorsi is getting out there. It's like, there's

1190
01:14:30,300 --> 01:14:35,820
a business component to this as well. Like, should you ever work for free? If so, why? Like,

1191
01:14:37,020 --> 01:14:39,900
does that change? What are the, what are the, what are the sliders?

1192
01:14:40,620 --> 01:14:45,500
I don't know. I'm a cosmopolitan, so I'll validate or so. I don't know if I'm the right person to

1193
01:14:45,500 --> 01:14:51,420
answer this because we're doing a lot for free right now, or maybe for negative. All right,

1194
01:14:51,420 --> 01:14:55,500
so I'll try to answer it without, without context of knowing kind of where this, where this comes

1195
01:14:55,500 --> 01:15:03,420
besides that. My, my, my dead answer would be that nothing is ever for free. And your time is

1196
01:15:03,420 --> 01:15:09,100
actually worth something. Your time when you're young is worth almost nothing. And as you get older,

1197
01:15:09,100 --> 01:15:15,660
each hour that you spend is worth more. And so as you get into your 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s,

1198
01:15:15,660 --> 01:15:20,380
that time becomes much and much and much more valuable. It's not linear. It's exponential.

1199
01:15:20,380 --> 01:15:25,020
So your time at 10 years old, like kids can blow time at doing anything, but at 40,

1200
01:15:25,020 --> 01:15:29,900
that those hours are worth something. And so I wouldn't think of it as working for free. I would

1201
01:15:29,900 --> 01:15:35,260
think of it as if you give yourself an hourly rate, which sounds weird to say, but you kind of

1202
01:15:35,260 --> 01:15:41,660
have an hourly rate. And your hourly rate in your head might, it will change over, of course,

1203
01:15:41,660 --> 01:15:46,700
your timeline, like I just said. And that hourly rate, you're, you're, even though you're not

1204
01:15:46,700 --> 01:15:53,580
billing it, you're investing it. So if you're, if the question is, should I do work for free?

1205
01:15:54,620 --> 01:15:59,340
The answer to that should be that you should figure out what that time is worth and say,

1206
01:15:59,340 --> 01:16:05,660
instead of saying, should I do work for free, should I invoke 10 hours at $120 an hour?

1207
01:16:05,660 --> 01:16:12,860
Should I invoke $1,200 of my money towards this thing? And will this repay me later at either

1208
01:16:12,860 --> 01:16:19,500
$100, $1,200 or more? And if the answer is yes, then yeah, you can work for free. If the answer

1209
01:16:19,500 --> 01:16:24,300
is no, then you should think about where you're spending your time and how you're doing that.

1210
01:16:24,300 --> 01:16:28,540
So like I said, early on, your time might be worth nothing, which means if you're working for free,

1211
01:16:28,540 --> 01:16:34,380
I'm investing 10 bucks for 10 hours, who gives a shit? If you're later, if you have kids at home,

1212
01:16:34,380 --> 01:16:40,300
or if you have a wife, or if you have a relationship, that time instantly goes up. Because if you're

1213
01:16:40,300 --> 01:16:44,060
not, if you're spending it doing something else, you're not spending it with a loved one,

1214
01:16:44,060 --> 01:16:50,220
that might not seem like a lot, but you are, you are taking hours away from someone else

1215
01:16:50,220 --> 01:16:54,940
who wants to spend time with you, right? And so that has a cost to it, even though you don't

1216
01:16:54,940 --> 01:16:58,300
want to think of it that way, it's weird to think about, but you kind of get a little bit in your

1217
01:16:58,300 --> 01:17:03,420
mind. And so as you get older, and as you're spending time on one thing to not work on something

1218
01:17:03,420 --> 01:17:08,380
else, I think the idea is that should I, instead of saying, should I work for free, should I invest

1219
01:17:08,380 --> 01:17:13,580
in this thing? And how much am I willing to invest? That's a good way of thinking about it. And

1220
01:17:13,580 --> 01:17:18,700
sometimes some, and also not everything has the same amount of risk reward. Some things you might

1221
01:17:18,700 --> 01:17:21,740
say, I'm going to invest a little bit because there's something coming down the road, like I might

1222
01:17:21,740 --> 01:17:26,460
go work for a startup that has a lower salary that I want. So I'm not working for free, but I'm

1223
01:17:26,460 --> 01:17:31,500
working for less. So I know I'm thinking I'm leaving 10, I'm leaving $20,000 a year on the

1224
01:17:31,500 --> 01:17:36,860
table, but I think that over the course of three years, it's going to have a much greater return.

1225
01:17:36,860 --> 01:17:41,180
So therefore, I'm going to put this 20 grand on the side because I think it's going to be worth

1226
01:17:41,180 --> 01:17:45,260
half a million dollars when this company sells. That's a decision. Like you can make that decision.

1227
01:17:45,260 --> 01:17:49,900
And people at different points of their life, instead of 20 grand, it might be 200 grand or

1228
01:17:49,900 --> 01:17:53,500
$2 million. And I want to think, am I putting this on the side to go do something else that's

1229
01:17:53,500 --> 01:17:58,220
going to have a higher return? So I think you have to, that's my dad answered this, but I think

1230
01:17:58,220 --> 01:18:03,820
you have to kind of rethink that question and put it in context of where you want to spend time and

1231
01:18:03,820 --> 01:18:09,340
what's important to you at what different points in your life. And it's a bet. Like if you're

1232
01:18:09,340 --> 01:18:12,220
putting time towards something that might not return something, I think you really have to

1233
01:18:12,220 --> 01:18:16,940
rethink to say, is this worth my freaking time? And can I make money elsewhere?

1234
01:18:16,940 --> 01:18:22,700
So yeah, that risk element is the interesting one. So do you think there's also something like,

1235
01:18:22,700 --> 01:18:27,740
let's say you're towards the start of your career, which is a very common time when people sort of

1236
01:18:27,740 --> 01:18:33,020
work for exposure or whatever. I built a lot of websites for people for free when I was

1237
01:18:33,020 --> 01:18:41,100
first buying out. Spoo did free work for Hannah Montana, which presumably Hannah Montana never

1238
01:18:41,100 --> 01:18:48,940
even knew about. But I guess it's a little bit different when you're 16 and you're knocking out

1239
01:18:48,940 --> 01:18:55,980
a website in your free time, fine. So let's say you're like 22, you've got bills to pay,

1240
01:18:55,980 --> 01:19:02,060
and now you're making the risk reward of should I work for free? Again, you're at the beginning

1241
01:19:02,060 --> 01:19:08,060
of a new career, maybe you've changed careers, something like that. You're shouldering a lot

1242
01:19:08,060 --> 01:19:12,300
more risk, aren't you? Because you've got bills to pay, but you're potentially working for free.

1243
01:19:12,940 --> 01:19:16,060
Well, I don't know if you're shouldering more risk. Your bills go up as you get older.

1244
01:19:16,620 --> 01:19:26,860
So it depends on your burn rate goes way up. Your burn rate at my age at 22,

1245
01:19:26,860 --> 01:19:32,380
I'd be like, Are you fucking kidding me? It's a weird number because you have kids and you have

1246
01:19:32,380 --> 01:19:36,700
there's things that come up, right? You have responsibilities. And so that burn goes up.

1247
01:19:36,700 --> 01:19:40,780
And so the late usually why people I mean, it's why you risk at young age is because when you

1248
01:19:40,780 --> 01:19:45,740
get older, that honestly, that risk tolerance goes way down, way, way, way, way down. At young,

1249
01:19:45,740 --> 01:19:49,900
you can make fucking mistakes. Who gives a shit? Like, we same thing, like we did the same thing.

1250
01:19:49,900 --> 01:19:54,380
So it doesn't matter. You have, yeah, you don't have much money. But again, you could survive

1251
01:19:54,380 --> 01:19:58,700
a much less and your your talent for risk goes way up. When you get older, that risk

1252
01:19:58,700 --> 01:20:02,940
tolerance goes way down, which is why you don't see you don't see a tremendous number of startups,

1253
01:20:02,940 --> 01:20:06,380
like 50 or 60 year olds, like that doesn't necessarily happen. It's a lot of work. And you

1254
01:20:06,380 --> 01:20:11,980
don't, you don't see it a ton. It's much more with as you're younger and have energy for it.

1255
01:20:11,980 --> 01:20:17,980
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the average age of or like the median age of a successful exit

1256
01:20:17,980 --> 01:20:24,460
startup founder was something like, like not, not super old, but not super young either is like 30,

1257
01:20:24,460 --> 01:20:29,900
30, 40. Yeah, that sounds right. But that's still like, well, I guess it's still, yeah, you would

1258
01:20:29,900 --> 01:20:33,740
say, you have enough cash to get it going, you have enough experience to start something, right?

1259
01:20:33,740 --> 01:20:39,180
You have all these things are right, right? And then you want to get out of it at like, if you

1260
01:20:39,180 --> 01:20:42,700
can get out of it, if you can out of a business in your early 30s, or something like that and have

1261
01:20:42,700 --> 01:20:46,860
an exit, that would be that's that's good stuff, man. That's amazing. So I think they were at 38

1262
01:20:46,860 --> 01:20:52,300
or whatever when they founded. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I mean, it's, that's, I mean, the other thing is

1263
01:20:52,300 --> 01:20:55,660
like, you have, you have individuals who have worked in a career for so long that they understand

1264
01:20:55,660 --> 01:20:59,180
the business well enough and they say, this is stupid, we should be doing this on our own, right?

1265
01:20:59,180 --> 01:21:03,740
And so like that, that also makes sense too, or you, you were like, I understand, I see the market,

1266
01:21:03,740 --> 01:21:07,740
I see a fit, I know how to run this better, right? You have that experience to be able to do it.

1267
01:21:07,740 --> 01:21:13,660
That might, that might be more traditional where in web three, I think, is this right? I don't

1268
01:21:13,660 --> 01:21:16,940
know. It's the first time I had this thought, but I would think the barriers to start something

1269
01:21:17,580 --> 01:21:23,100
are lower here. But I could be wrong about that. I don't know if that's a good statement. It seems

1270
01:21:23,100 --> 01:21:28,140
like the barriers are lower. Like you have a lot more infrastructure and it's very much more focused

1271
01:21:28,140 --> 01:21:31,820
and you have a lot more, maybe I don't know if that's right or not. You can definitely put out

1272
01:21:31,820 --> 01:21:37,180
something that's a lot less finished like an MVP, because yeah, maybe the expectations are lower.

1273
01:21:37,180 --> 01:21:40,460
I don't know if that's right at all. I think the space is so new, the expectations are like,

1274
01:21:40,460 --> 01:21:45,340
the fact that you can develop something on your own and just knock it out in web three, that's

1275
01:21:45,340 --> 01:21:51,340
like, we'll be going back 15 years maybe in web two to get to the point where you could prototype

1276
01:21:51,340 --> 01:21:55,020
an idea on your own and viably get something out of the door.

1277
01:21:55,020 --> 01:22:03,260
Yeah. The thing in traditional, your faces on the website, you have a set of references,

1278
01:22:03,260 --> 01:22:07,180
you have partnerships you've had, you have these other types of things. Web three, you're

1279
01:22:07,180 --> 01:22:15,260
a fucking, you're a AI generated rhino on a Twitter website. There's that anonymity piece

1280
01:22:15,260 --> 01:22:21,500
comes forward where we don't have it here, but that anonymity piece and nobody knows who you are,

1281
01:22:21,500 --> 01:22:24,860
your age or anything else. It takes all that bullshit out of it. I think that lowers the

1282
01:22:24,860 --> 01:22:28,300
barriers as well, where if you're trying to start, I don't know, I'm trying to start

1283
01:22:28,300 --> 01:22:32,540
up whatever, I'm trying to start something that's hand to hand where I'm going out and if you're

1284
01:22:32,540 --> 01:22:36,780
young, I think you get judged as young. Web three, I think a little bit, you get a little bit, and

1285
01:22:36,780 --> 01:22:40,380
maybe web two to a point, you get a little bit of a reprieve on that where it doesn't matter,

1286
01:22:40,380 --> 01:22:44,220
right? Like, you're, it's just more about the skill set, which is nice. I don't know if that's

1287
01:22:44,220 --> 01:22:47,340
true or not. I gotta think about that a little bit more, but maybe it's, maybe that's a little bit

1288
01:22:47,340 --> 01:22:54,220
the case. But anyway, that would be my answer for work. I think that I have no, I think in

1289
01:22:54,220 --> 01:22:58,060
everybody's, in everybody's career, you make decisions on where you're going to invest

1290
01:22:58,060 --> 01:23:03,660
on risks, right? Like you guys, this is a podcast of entrepreneurs, right? We have this, we have

1291
01:23:03,660 --> 01:23:09,100
this podcast tagged, asked around like, how do you tag this? And I put entrepreneurship was the

1292
01:23:09,100 --> 01:23:13,580
main tag. I don't think I've ever said this, but this is, this is the, it comes up with entrepreneurship,

1293
01:23:13,580 --> 01:23:17,340
because this is an entrepreneur type thing. And you have to have the right kind of

1294
01:23:17,340 --> 01:23:22,380
group around that. And then early on, even now, we're all investing, I think today, like as

1295
01:23:22,380 --> 01:23:25,580
Stargaze validators were investing, there's no doubt about that, right? It's worth it. So,

1296
01:23:25,580 --> 01:23:29,420
and, and like even on other chains in the cosmos, in those types of things, you're investing, right?

1297
01:23:29,420 --> 01:23:33,180
And so whether that's in dollars and infrastructure, or that's in your time, because

1298
01:23:33,180 --> 01:23:39,500
you spend a shitload of time. Again, I'm not in here because I want to lose money, because I have a,

1299
01:23:39,500 --> 01:23:42,300
we have a viewpoint that's very long term, and we think that's going to pay off.

1300
01:23:43,100 --> 01:23:47,980
That's it, right? I want to add one thing here. That risk equation changes a little bit when

1301
01:23:47,980 --> 01:23:54,060
you're currently working. So in software, it's very common to be asked during an interview to do

1302
01:23:54,060 --> 01:24:01,580
like a 20 hour project while you're currently working full time. The risk equation of burning

1303
01:24:01,580 --> 01:24:05,340
out when you're doing those every week, going from working 40 hours to now 60 hours, because

1304
01:24:05,340 --> 01:24:09,580
now I'm working on one of these projects for an interview, that's way riskier. And that's going to

1305
01:24:09,580 --> 01:24:12,860
be weighed completely differently when you're talking about free work, because most of those

1306
01:24:12,860 --> 01:24:19,820
projects are free work. So fun fact about one of those, I once did one, and I was obviously doing

1307
01:24:19,820 --> 01:24:25,180
it around my day job, and I was very, very tired. It was about two in the morning. And I realized

1308
01:24:25,180 --> 01:24:30,780
like the solution, the most elegant solution was painter's fill. And I couldn't be bothered to

1309
01:24:30,780 --> 01:24:34,940
code that algorithm. And they'd said, you've got five hours to do it. But you should do this in five

1310
01:24:34,940 --> 01:24:39,100
hours. And I was like, I got to four hours, and I was like, well, I'm not going to have time in the

1311
01:24:39,100 --> 01:24:43,820
time available. I can't even type that fast to code the full painter's fill. So I just can do

1312
01:24:43,820 --> 01:24:48,460
the slightly less efficient one, but I can know I can get it done in the time. And I left the code

1313
01:24:48,460 --> 01:24:54,380
comment to this effect. And then this essentially a multi method entry point for how the code was

1314
01:24:54,380 --> 01:24:59,500
going to work. And above it, I left the comment saying, here be dragons. This is where the magic

1315
01:24:59,500 --> 01:25:04,780
happens, here be dragons. And they were like, fair enough, we read the code comment saying you

1316
01:25:04,780 --> 01:25:09,020
didn't have time to do painter's fill, that would have been the correct solution. You probably

1317
01:25:09,020 --> 01:25:12,460
should have spent more time on it to do to code that up. And I was like, well, I mean, I followed

1318
01:25:12,460 --> 01:25:15,820
the instructions. And then they were like, but we're not going to take you forward because of

1319
01:25:15,820 --> 01:25:20,460
your unprofessional code comments. And I was just like, well, it sounds like I don't want to fucking

1320
01:25:20,460 --> 01:25:27,340
work here anyway, man. Exactly. This interview is both ways, people. Yeah, well, that's something

1321
01:25:27,340 --> 01:25:30,620
I was going to throw out there was that for me, it's kind of litmus test where if a company asks

1322
01:25:30,620 --> 01:25:35,740
you to put down, you know, 16 hours or whatever for a project, that for free, that means it's a

1323
01:25:35,740 --> 01:25:41,260
company I outright do not want to work for. You know, we did, we used to do this too. We used to

1324
01:25:41,260 --> 01:25:45,020
do technical, we used to do, I forget we should call it like a tech up or something like that,

1325
01:25:45,020 --> 01:25:48,700
but we used to do the same thing. We wouldn't do 16 hours, but we would put people through a pace

1326
01:25:49,260 --> 01:25:53,900
of four to six. And honestly, the reason we did that, Chelsea, was because there were so many

1327
01:25:53,900 --> 01:25:58,860
applicants that and we, we, we recruited really hard. If people would spend the time, we knew

1328
01:25:58,860 --> 01:26:16,300
they were serious.