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Literally took two minutes. I was I asked the question and I said, this is my problem. Here is the fucking the document like copy pasted it. And then it's like, oh, just do this. You dinkus.

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It looks like a pretty shit solution to me to be honest. I saw it was like, I wouldn't use that.

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the Cosmos from independent validator teams.

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Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the Cosmos from independent validator teams. And we are now at the point of the bear market, I guess, or at the point of the technological singularity where we're quite happy to just outsource our validator operations to

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chat GPT, it seems. So is it a new low? Is it a new high? You decide.

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Hey, man, I've seen enough people use it to do things that took me like a week to do. And it takes you like eight seconds to have existential dread from chat GPT.

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Did you not have existential dread already?

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Well, I was kind of in a permanent state of dread. But now it's like, there's two stages and I'm definitely in stage two.

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There might be more stages, but I'm definitely past the original stage.

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I recently discovered that everything, everything, the kind of British guitar, pop band put out a new record last year and I missed it when it came out. I don't know why. There's a track on that.

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I don't know what's cool. I don't think it's software great man. But there's another track on there where the chorus is, you're in love with the future. And I don't know why. And I just, I heard that and I was like, this song could not be more where I am right now.

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And then literally chat GPT came out the week later and I was like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, 100%. And the weirdest thing actually is that they have weird lyrics, right? Anyway, at the best of times.

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And this was, I guess, was put in about a couple of years ago when they were writing the album, they're from and basically just like put a bunch of prompts into a natural language net that a friend had made to just see it spit out, like from his own seeds of actual song lyrics, garbage.

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And it basically just spat out what looks like Jonathan Higgs is actual lyrics. Like it's one of those where they're like, oh yeah, a bunch of it is actually just like computer gibberish. And it's it's a statement about and then like you look at it and you're like, you could you can run you can sing you can crush every bluebird on the planet and you're like, I, I don't know if that's Jonathan Higgs trying to be poetic or if that's the computer erroring. I actually honestly couldn't tell you if that is a normal everything everything lyric.

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Or that is computer says no. But also related to the on a previous album, 2015 gets to heaven for those paying attention to the discography or everything everything. They also have a song called was spring summer winter dread, which is also oddly, oddly relatable to the current situation.

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I don't think relevant. I don't take kindly to that to fall being dread spring summer spring summer winter dread. Yeah. Yeah. No, as a as an autumn child, I take offense.

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Well, I mean, it's autumn is just absent. The point is that the season coming or the changing the season brings I mean, I guess if it comes after spring, not to get too multi Python about it, presumably it's spring that's dread. They just skipped awesome.

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Maybe. Maybe. Hey, look, you know, these are all things you should take up on the everything everything official forum or their subreddit or whatever passes for such a thing in this advanced technological hellscape.

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Okay. That's that's what I say about that.

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I'll just do what I normally do and write a strongly worded letter. That's like one of my favorite hobbies. If I like find a product that I don't like, I'll write the company like listen, you should got to do better.

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Have you actually done that?

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Oh, man, I should have shown you I have like an entire stack of responses from companies and like I have a direct like line in on the Tillamook ice cream because I've mentioned them so many times like they used to have. Well, they do still have ice cream chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream.

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And they're they're cookie chunks you have to get like literally like four in a quart of ice cream or quarter half ice cream, and they'd be like this big, they'd be huge and there's just the four of them. And so I mess with them was like, What the hell are you doing?

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Like you have such a good base here and you have like no actual cookie dough bits you got to like do better. And so they sent a message to be like Oh, well our quality control meets the highest standards.

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And I was like, Well, clearly it's not high enough because you need to like distribute it better. And so now there's like whenever they come out with a new ice cream, they'll send me a ticket for it so I can try it and for other companies too.

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It's just the weird thing that I don't know. I don't know how we can. But yeah, I write companies whenever I find a product that I think they can prove a bond.

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I say that all it's like a phrase that I use when people say, Oh, this fucking this thing's shit. And I'm like, Well, you should write them a fucking letter. You should get out the good station area and write them a letter.

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And I don't think anyone ever has but that is fucking phenomenal that you're a person that does that. I love that.

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I say you not. And that I think the companies appreciate it too because they almost always get a good response of like, Wow, we've never got a response like this before. What are your other thoughts or whatever.

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I think there's a ticket to get some more something to the CEO. Here's three.

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So I didn't like to complain.

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Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So there's that little tidbit. That's that's actually a really fun hobby because sometimes you'll just receive an email out of the blue back from a company you forgot that you messaged.

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And they're like, Hey, we just addressed this. Here's a here's a free ticket. I'm like, Oh sweet. I get I can go get some some tortilla chips next week. Awesome.

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So I when I was a kid, I remember like, I remember someone saying like, Oh, if you write a letter that you got like, you know, a pencil in your packet of chips, they'll send you like a box of free chips.

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I guess there's some truth that maybe not a box of free chips, but like, you know, it's a big it's a big problem for large companies that like, I remember there was a whole thing.

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The friend a friend worked for a large British retailer and they had to deal with the situation where there was a, I want to say a planet of strawberries.

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And there was a rat and they were threatening to go to the papers with rat dead rat in the in the strawberries.

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And they they had to obviously submit the rat for as part of the complaint. And they were like, you know, we want we want 30 grand. Otherwise we're going to the papers. This is unacceptable.

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And they were like, well, we need to see evidence of this rat. Right. So they sent the right now. Like, but you know, we've got evidence this this happened blah blah blah.

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Don't try and pull fast one. And then because obviously the amount of money they essentially getting blackmailed for they like, here's the thing, right.

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Fuck knows whose job is.

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What's the words like pathologist. Yeah, right. Who's a rat pathologist. Okay. But whoever was the rat pathologist, I assume that's actually just a vet.

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But hey, maybe there's a specialist rat pathologist was like, the rat has been poisoned.

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But he don't know if the rat was poisoned before or after it died. We just know it has poisoned in its system, which it raises a lot of questions.

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That's all I'm saying. There's, you know, it's like an escalation. You think that there's actually been a bit of quality control slippage and what you actually discover is murder, albeit of a rat.

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Did they get their 30 grand?

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No, but they did get a payoff. Because apparently, like, it's it's the papers, like if they have a slow news day, they might just publish any garbage.

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And you look like as a big company, like you can't just well, you can just sue a newspaper.

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But damages done.

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Well, yeah, but it's also it's kind of like, it's like a bad sport thing. And it also might if you ever advertise with that paper, it might, you know, interrupt that relation.

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There's a lot of reasons why you just write it off as well as a big fuck up and you move on like rather than like the Streisand effect kind of thing.

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You don't want to like draw a bigger fucking crosshairs on your back. You just go like you put out a prepared statement, you say, this is probably somebody, you know, we have highest quality standards, unless this is submitted to us and tested independently, blah, blah, blah, we have no interest in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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So instead to just stop having to go through that whole path, potentially, you just pay them five grand or a grand or give them a bunch of store credit and turn the fuck off.

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Essentially, it was like what I gather happened, but wasn't close enough to it to be 100 cents. But I did I gather they didn't get the 30k but I think they might have got like 500 quid or something like that.

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I don't know.

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But yeah, the rat was murdered. Right. Justice for rat.

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I mean, so I think strawberries is like $4 or $5 right if they got 500 out of it. That's a cool 100x. That's, that's still a good deal.

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It's good business. Good business plan. If you can scale it. You just need enough retailers to hit up with the rat scam. But apparently it's really common anyway, scams of that nature.

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Yeah, no, I don't try and scam. I try and do it like, I guess as an engineer would like I'll take a picture of the product code and like all the identifying information so they know where the source was from and then like provide all that alongside like the quality control issues.

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I'm not messing around. Like I've got it down.

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It's like you're you're outside the building stalking it with your long range fucking lens.

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It's like a vigilante. It's like a little hacked into the system to find out the exact person that was on the control line that day and you've like followed them home.

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Exactly. Right. Yeah.

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So, so we were artifact and I were when we were at sushi. That's what we were laughing about. We were laughing about me going and messaging companies about that at Eve Denver.

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Oh, yeah, the the fucking sushi restaurant.

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Yeah, when you were falling apart. Yeah, that was why we're talking about this.

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Yeah, there was a lot of fucking laughing going on. I was like, what in the fuck is this about man?

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Like, pray, shiltsy was literally falling off his fucking seat, man. I've never heard someone giggle so much in all of my life.

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I'm like, there's something real funny going on over here and I've got no idea what it is. So I'm just going to laugh along pretend they're not laughing at me.

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Well, so so artifact he, I guess he has like a doctorate in.

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He's got a doctorate or masters. He has he has some some higher education in like if he's a doctorate, then we are surrounded by doctors at this point.

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Right.

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Because you know, we found out why not no doxin but we found out another another person in the extended game and those family is a doctor making you know what's the what's the phrase imposter syndrome intensifies like.

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Yeah, so that was stage one of existential dreaded imposter syndrome. Stage two is chat to PT.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit is posting about how they're like code using it to copilot and write code and I'm like, yeah, but then what's the fucking point of your life?

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Look, man, I had a problem. I consulted who mans. We couldn't figure it out. I asked chat GBT jet P.

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Yeah, but that's infrastructure. That's Ansible is not it's not really it's kind of it's codish. It's mainly YAML files. It's not it's not that it's code. It's that it wasn't a problem.

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You know, I'd ask chat GPT to write me some YAML. I mean, it's fucking YAML. You know, I mean, like, nobody gives a fuck about YAML.

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But like, it's not it's not good. But my point is if you have a fuck is it took me a fucking day to get it to work.

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Yeah, welcome to why people try and palm off ops on other people and why ops engineers can like write a number on a piece of paper and say, yep, that's the number of people go really I mean, I'm pretty sure I could hire two programmers for that and they go, yeah,

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and the programmers can't be fucked to do this. Can they know they can't write. Okay, right. What was the what did you want this check made out to that that's that's my experience of working in ops contractors, man.

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I mean, they're usually obviously really good because they, you know, you have to be to survive and stay sane in the ops game as a contractor, I guess, but so partial partial match says you found some fucking plastic in his spaghetti, sent them a sent them an email and their resolution was to give him discounts to buy more

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hines. That's what literally always happens. I always just get like discounts for or free products from from the same thing like oh you didn't like these bag of chips have another one.

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Yeah, I mean like what else do they have.

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They've got chips.

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You're like, oh, oh, that's still her.

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Like, I was supposed to hurt you.

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So I don't know that kind of seems like you're working for free to give them product advice and then they charge you.

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Yeah, this is why we need you server here like you serve who would be like, right come on Dylan how long to type you to write a letter and then you know let's let's get some numbers going here.

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So like you said letter.

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Take some big L's on the on the behalf of you know, big ice cream or whoever it is you're writing to.

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It's so it's worth every minute of entertainment though because one time message someone and I guess they had like a third party contractor handle their ops and they were like, this sounds really serious I'm just going to send it off to the founder or something and I was like oh okay.

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The third party management people just couldn't do it.

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I discovered a thing the other day actually I did have to write it wasn't strongly read a letter but I did have to get in touch with customer support.

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Because true true to brand I was trying to book a train but I couldn't for reasons, which will become clear.

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And I was just like okay right I just need to move this to the business account.

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No worries.

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I tried to use like the one the business emails we have and it didn't work and I said what the fuck so say it long story short I get in touch with them and it turns out that if you've ever checked out as a guest, you've had to provide an email to send your booking to or or phone number

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whatever or just collect it at the station with a code right.

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I didn't think they didn't think with that email but apparently their system actually creates a ghost user and then you can never use that email again.

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And I had literally discovered this bug in their system by just being.

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What's the one poorly organized enough that I needed to try and like use a different email other than the account actually had registered as well what what what other emails do I actually own okay this one this will work.

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Can I can I move this to this and then that will solve all my email based problems.

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And they were like oh yeah it turns out actually we can't move emails and it just generically errors somewhere deep in the mythical stack here.

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And I was like oh you're welcome and I said never my rate card.

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No I didn't say that to a customer service representative using the call center that would be incredibly glib and and crass of me but makes a funny one liner for a second there.

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One of the lands in the office I used to work in actually used to also be a bit of a serial customer complainer and his but his were.

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I would say probably I can't see yours being that petty shortsy whereas his were like he's still also bulk buy things.

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So like he got and I think you got like some kind of sporting injuries he was like I need some bath salts.

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So conclusion was not to and they come in like you know you seen bath salts right you know they're like a kilo or something is the minimum size whatever.

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Somebody tell me I don't know how many baths that is but a few I would guess he bought 24 of those new just in case right but we're talking bulk he's a bulk order in kind of guy.

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Of course one of the split it trads it and then I go into the office one day like I'm just hooking my bike upstairs and I just hear on the phone and he's gonna have to have an Alan Partridge voice whatever he's just like well look I'm looking on the box here and I would not say this is sufficiently packed.

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And that cool that was that was that was I gather halfway through what would end up being an hour and 10 minute call to resolve the split bag of Epsom bath salts.

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But he did get a full refund.

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I think for half of the crate you got full refund for the split bag and then also wrangled a refund for half of the crate.

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But then I don't know if he ever used was like 24 or something like that so you ever can get through 12.

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That's such an insane amount that's a huge shit like that all the time like literally maybe half the week I mean he had a job I don't know what he was doing in between all these customer service calls but our coffee machine in the office blew up very boy we years we have this piece of shit.

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Bought a new one it blew up after two and a half months right and it's a really weird period of time because things up to six months you have to return to the retailer and after six months you return to the manufacturer right under European consumer law right but it's the consumer right consumer rights like 1976 possibly anyway.

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And not important the point is that most most retailers like 14 days isn't it and then they start to be a bit fucking funny about things so coffee machine blows up with like what the fuck this is we just bought a new coffee machine and then we like all have exactly same thought we literally all touch turn on our chairs.

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This guy we're just like hey man.

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What are you.

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What are you up to today.

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You want to go to bed.

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What are you up to.

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So you know how the coffee machine is fucked.

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So yeah, yeah, that's pretty bullshit isn't it like.

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Well it's actually.

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You think about it's only two and a half months old isn't it.

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He's like.

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Hasn't breached the consumer rights like 1976 and isn't it.

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And it's like we may have might be might be I mean I'm not familiar with the legislation mate but I mean I mean I've got the rest analysis of what the other side work we actually got the receipt my desk somewhere like you know pulls out and he's like oh yeah it's really pissed me off actually when things like this happened.

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I literally we packed him off with the thing under one arm.

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He came back an hour and a half later with his lunch obviously picked up on the way back.

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He came back with a new coffee machine and apology from the manager.

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A written apology from the manager and 1010 pounds of store credit.

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He said well actually I'm doing some behalf of the office I work in I actually did not make this original purchase although I am authorized to bring this back and we're you know so I actually you know for the cost of this coffee machine.

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I think everybody in the office would just appreciate like a note from you to say sorry for this incident because it has been quite disruptive as I'm sure you can imagine they literally wrote like a one like it was like a one night was like sorry for your trouble.

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That's really that's all it does just that that requires some tenacity I'm not that level I send the information and let them decide how they want to make like make it up to.

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They want to make a man.

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It's like that they're like forgive me sure see for I've said.

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Yeah, you're right.

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The consumer protection in Australia is pretty good you're never going to get a letter from a store manager but you can have something fuck out up to two years and just take it back and be like fix it.

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If it's if it's within a certain timeframe notice replace it if it's like within another certain timeframe notice return to base.

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Another timeframe they'll they'll like actually repair the fucking thing.

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So British law isn't superb but European law is like it's it's five years and then the thing in British law is what's called a reasonable expectation of use.

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Which is different for different things like my reasonable expectation for use for a laptop could be like quite reasonably five years let's say and then I think European consumer law is.

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For years for big devices something like that something in the chat is going to correct me anyway.

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But the upshot of it is that like Apple care try and sell you Apple care for three years.

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There's no point you tell them to go fuck themselves because and I've done this this does work.

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You turn up after four and a half years with a failed hard drive and they go oh sorry no Apple care and you go.

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00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:25,680
Yeah, consumer rights out mate and they go oh you've pressed the magic button that has elevated you to the status of a free repair and it just happens.

153
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,680
You've walked through fucking column number five.

154
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:34,680
It literally it literally goes from go fuck yourself to I you've quoted the legislation we immediately have to do this for you.

155
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:47,680
It's great like it literally does it literally does work that point but then as soon as you tip over the like whatever the legal precedent for reasonable expectation of use I think is the wording whether that's five years or six years.

156
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,680
The second you tip over that day on from the date of your receipt.

157
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:59,680
Then they flip back to you like reasonable expectation of use now like reasonable expectation of kiss my nuts and you're like kiss my ass.

158
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:05,680
Steve Jobs Jobs and then they they take all your money and send it to the South Cofcus of Jobs.

159
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,680
That's how it works.

160
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:20,680
Well then so moving on then how about the tombstone of the week the freight you have the you have the graphic ready.

161
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,680
Wow two ways ready.

162
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,680
That's a poor bloody.

163
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,680
Yeah fuck you sir.

164
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,680
What.

165
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:32,680
Right.

166
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:39,680
I'm like I was going through all the the IRL stuff and I'm like what the fuck is this like a handle.

167
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,680
It's like I you sir.

168
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:49,680
Yeah so you should you should just address for those of you for those of you that they're listening later you might have noticed it's been very quiet from a certain corner.

169
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,520
I'm like I'm not sure what the

170
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,680
SEPA is is is not here today he will be joining a little bit later.

171
00:22:54,680 --> 00:23:02,680
It was pretty much this situation genius you're fucking one because you'll never see me again.

172
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,680
So that was.

173
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,680
I do I get good value of that clip when I added to the role.

174
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:15,680
Yeah so it's two times yes to fucking resplice the audio.

175
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:24,680
Every time every time we smash one of those buttons that's just another edit for SERP and he's usually the one that stops us from having fun so.

176
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,680
The private check can you stop.

177
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:31,680
So here's the thing right as well we we got a viewer we got a viewer question right.

178
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,680
Well hang on hang on hang on.

179
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,680
So the tombstone the tombstone sorry sorry.

180
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:41,680
I just want to say we had a viewer question right and it's typically said they're interested to hear what you sir for thought about it.

181
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:49,680
And I was just like yeah of course because we're not adults like it's like it's really obvious that none of us should have responsibility or anything that's like.

182
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,680
Let me speak to the manager.

183
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,680
Exactly it's like let me speak to the person who actually knows what's up.

184
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,680
I want to direct my question to you sir.

185
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,680
But you're like yeah OK that fucking figures doesn't it that's 100% how it works.

186
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:02,680
Right.

187
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,680
Teamstone of the week shy fucking up gonna hit the button again.

188
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,680
Fucking yeah because.

189
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,680
Please Timstone of the week now.

190
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:13,680
Steak Cito.

191
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,680
Teamstone of the week on Evmos I believe.

192
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,680
But have no fear they're spinning up a new validator and you can re delegate to it.

193
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,680
So I think the purpose of the tombstone if you ask me.

194
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:33,680
Well I mean if you ask if you ask 90% of people they feel like that.

195
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,680
They feel like the whole.

196
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:41,680
If you ask 90% of people they all think that like the double sign tombstone is bullshit anyway so.

197
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,680
I tend to agree.

198
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:44,680
But anyway.

199
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,680
TM KMS snafu with.

200
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,680
I didn't quite understand the explanation but it seems like.

201
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,680
I read it what.

202
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:53,680
What.

203
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,680
So it seems to me that potentially they spun up a new validator.

204
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,680
Probably after waiting for it to state sync for fucking 20 hours.

205
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,680
They must have copied.

206
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,680
I think what they did they redirected their TM KMS.

207
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,680
But the other validator was still running.

208
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:18,680
And reverted to the on site file like potentially they probably turned off the.

209
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,680
The redirect to the well the listen address for the signer.

210
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:29,680
Which then would have gone back to local while they're trying to like you know use it as a spare or whatever.

211
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,680
Yeah that's why you delete that file and it just creates a new one when it spins back up.

212
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,680
Yes well you know.

213
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,680
Yes that's the correct way to do it.

214
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:44,680
And you put that little Jason file that lovely little Jason file on a hard and hard drive and you go and put in a bank vault.

215
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:45,680
And then you know.

216
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,680
A little bit of YAML a little bit of Ansible they could have just done that automatically.

217
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,680
But maybe they chat GPT wasn't out then.

218
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,680
I mean using team came us in general is kind of gosh at this point.

219
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,680
Like I hear someone's using team can mess and I'm like wow people still use that.

220
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,680
If you're not going to hold on like why the hell what are you doing.

221
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,680
We have friends that use TM KMS.

222
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,680
We still use TM KMS.

223
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,680
Very gosh then.

224
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,680
So gosh.

225
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:22,680
Well if you're doing if you're doing if you're using one to one then there's not a huge amount of right.

226
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:30,680
So there's two arguments one you just go fuck it run it on the node because SSH has to be compromised before realistically you're going to lose access to a node.

227
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:36,680
Number two you can use bastion host to give you access to a set of IPs and then just say fuck it again.

228
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,680
Keep it on the node to give us a fuck.

229
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:46,680
And option three is Horcrux right but we we'll be doing Horcrux to do a one to two or a one to one.

230
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:57,680
And we haven't I literally even have a node pretty much configured set up with all the stuff for Horcrux in our AWS account but just stopped.

231
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,680
Make sure you turn off TM KMS first lol.

232
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,680
Yeah, obviously.

233
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:10,680
But like the as in the the the EC2 instances deactivated and it doesn't have any key matter on it.

234
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,680
Yeah anyway.

235
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:18,680
But just so far one and team came us actually encrypts the single signer key.

236
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,680
So that's at least a step better than Horcrux single signer doesn't encrypt it.

237
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,680
So that is one benefit of Tim KMS as well.

238
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,680
Yeah, I think this is one of those where I'm just like it.

239
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,680
It works.

240
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,680
We have a pretty stable setup with it.

241
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:44,680
If we have to do say like a major piece of infrastructure change, then I think we would just basically deprecate that server and then do Horcrux.

242
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:51,680
But when you're going to do DJ and Horcrux there is not as much, you know, to tell between them.

243
00:27:51,680 --> 00:28:02,680
I think if we were really, really actively expanding in the cosmos again and we were going to go okay well we'll have multiple like it like have a proper raft of of Horcrux.

244
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:11,680
No, it's then that's a very, very different like that's a very, very different scenario and then you know Horcrux makes a lot of sense.

245
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:26,680
But you know, being super blunt like we're just we're just not making enough in cosmos that it's actually worth the hours or time at the moment to be moving things or overcomperating things that currently work.

246
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:34,680
And we're pretty confident that as and when we do decide to go off, I'll get you know we should just do Horcrux could be about she done most of the legwork.

247
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:41,680
It's only going to be half a day to move over but yeah, I don't know.

248
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:56,680
So for those who are listening, the fray turned off his camera a little while back and then has reappeared wearing his new merch the needle cast hat.

249
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:06,680
And so now he not only has a god awful fucking God Ray on the side of his face he now has a shadow halfway across his face.

250
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:07,680
But it's a nice hat.

251
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:08,680
It's a nice hat.

252
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,680
It's a good hat.

253
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:16,680
I mean, I can turn on the light but it's such a weird time of year where it's just sort of getting dark or it's just got dark.

254
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:17,680
Is that is that a window?

255
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,680
I thought you don't have windows up there.

256
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:20,680
There's a window just here.

257
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:21,680
Oh yes.

258
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,680
But yeah, but there's no light coming through right so it's dark but it's dark now.

259
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:38,680
It's just got over to the side is the contrast on your face is like the white is just exploding off one side of your face and there's a line through the middle of it where there's like a shadow.

260
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,680
That's cool. My nose just to be clear.

261
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:48,680
Well now it's no there's like a diagonal line across your face where your brim is blocking your light and your nose.

262
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,680
I'm just yeah, I don't know.

263
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,680
I think that's just I think that actually might just be my face.

264
00:29:53,680 --> 00:30:02,680
I think that fucking I think that light section now is actually blowing the pixels out to full white on my monotone bit anyway that aside.

265
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:03,680
So fucking bright.

266
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:04,680
Is it not bright for you?

267
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,680
It's not that bad.

268
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,680
Yeah, not sure about that.

269
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,680
Yeah, it might be a little bit.

270
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:13,680
It is to be fair.

271
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,680
I mean, it is a brightish light but it's also I mean it's like a warm orange.

272
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,680
I think it's possibly that the camera is not really good enough to deal with the direct light source kind of it.

273
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:24,680
It's peripheral.

274
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,680
But yeah, we've got to ask.

275
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:27,680
Yeah.

276
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:28,680
Thank you for introducing it.

277
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,680
We do have some new merch all the better for your ping with.

278
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,680
Like what are you going to do with that though?

279
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,680
You're going to send it to me or like what's what are you going to do with the merch?

280
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,680
You can have one if you would like.

281
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,680
Are they like a good quality hat like usurpers hats?

282
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,680
Yeah, these are new era ones.

283
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:57,680
So you know like the you know like the baseball what you know the American what's the phrase I'm looking for the franchise baseball MLB MLB.

284
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,680
You know like the MLB baseball caps are all new era ones like the official ones.

285
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,680
Oh, I didn't know that.

286
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,680
Is new era a brand?

287
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:05,680
Yeah.

288
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,680
There are the official ones on this.

289
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,680
That's like I haven't just hallucinated that have I?

290
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,680
Did you just wake up knowing that one day you dreamt it up?

291
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,680
Is that even a real brand?

292
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:16,680
Yeah.

293
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,680
It's like it's like a thing.

294
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:20,680
New era.

295
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,680
I saw it on someone's hat in GTA 5.

296
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:24,680
Yeah.

297
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,680
MLB NFL NBA.

298
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:27,680
Yeah.

299
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,680
It's like the it's like the official one I think.

300
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,680
Oh, Ryan has remembered the the slogan.

301
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,680
Your butt shield down.

302
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:43,680
That's the one we are actually legit working on some merch for that like for the podcast that we keep talking about podcast merch.

303
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:44,680
We are actually going to do it.

304
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,680
But yeah, that's trash though that needs some work.

305
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,680
Yeah, I know it's whatever.

306
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:49,680
Fuck off.

307
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,680
Anyway, the point is good hats actually legit good hot good quality hats.

308
00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:02,680
They are new era 940s and they're going to be used to try and drum up business or just impress people in general.

309
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,680
A few conferences we're going to.

310
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,680
So what kind of quantity did you order?

311
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,680
What conferences are you going to?

312
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:17,680
Amongst other things we're going to money 2020 in Amsterdam and Brussels blockchain week.

313
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:27,680
And there's no real correlation between places that have good beer and nice cultural attractions that I might want to go to in the weekend before and after the conferences.

314
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,680
Not that you would that is that is complete coincidence.

315
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,680
And you certainly didn't go to them.

316
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:35,680
Yeah.

317
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:46,680
And you know, I will be arriving there directly going directly to the conference getting as bored as possible by the most boring talks I can find and then immediately getting back

318
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:54,680
over the channel to good old Brexit Island and wait the weekend following didn't you need to do like the following weekend?

319
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,680
I thought you had to meet up with some other teams there and do some collaboration.

320
00:32:58,680 --> 00:32:59,680
Fuck knows.

321
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,680
I don't know whatever.

322
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:08,680
I haven't really like at the moment.

323
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,680
That's that's that's for the tax man man.

324
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,680
That's for the tax.

325
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:30,680
We'd let the thing is if if I wasn't reasonably sure we would be dropping out new business from going to things, I wouldn't pay for going to shit because that's exactly how tight arms as a business owner director whatever the heck it is.

326
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,680
What kind of business are you hoping to drum up there?

327
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,680
Money 2023.

328
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:48,680
Well, so in order to get a discounted pass, I have had to specifically say that we are a product business.

329
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:57,680
So we were not there as a consultancy firm now and I resent the implication that we're going to use it to try and draw our consultancy business.

330
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,680
That's obviously not what we're going to what we were going to do.

331
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,680
Otherwise we would have had to pay for a full price ticket.

332
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:16,680
We're going to be talking about the various protocols we've launched in in Web 3 to other parties so that we can collaborate, discuss ideas, challenges, novel invent incentive schemes and how that might interface with TradFi.

333
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:22,680
You know, there's those sorts of human to human interactions we're really looking for because we're not really like looking to raise funding or anything.

334
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,680
So it's easier more than fact-finding.

335
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,680
I almost went to sleep.

336
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:39,680
We had to literally to get our discounted pass three rounds of proving that we would actually somewhat qualified to get a discounted pass as a startup.

337
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,680
It was fun.

338
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,680
Ramas says dad isn't here to keep them under control.

339
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,680
It is a little bit like that.

340
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,680
It is a little bit like that.

341
00:34:51,680 --> 00:35:02,680
So we do have a few things on the spreadsheet, but like I'm kind of like, you know, given that we know that you said, you said he was just going to go out for some cigarettes.

342
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,680
So like I've got to assume he will be back at that point.

343
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:10,680
And I'm kind of saving the topics from it's like, it's like, dad, where are you?

344
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,680
Where have you got your cigarettes?

345
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,680
Daddy, are you ever coming back?

346
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,680
Do you want to talk to us about the asterbach and oxone dad?

347
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Yeah, so what is the asterbach and oxone?

348
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,680
Like that's come up this week.

349
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,680
And I was like, does that just mean people are using ICS?

350
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,680
Is that it?

351
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:36,680
I don't think so because people have been listing it as like the Adam economics on ICS and liquid sticking module.

352
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,680
I think I don't think they're the same.

353
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:48,680
I have been seeing a lot lately that like projects should leave other protocols and go to where the Adam economic zone is.

354
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:49,680
I don't know. I don't know what it is.

355
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,680
Is there like a medium or something?

356
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:52,680
I don't know.

357
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,680
Hey, everyone's trying to happen on this, the stream and explain to us.

358
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,680
Yeah, Ramu would know.

359
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,680
We're just validated plebs.

360
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,680
Yeah, definitely like I've seen the same thing as ICS.

361
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,680
I just literally I literally read that and went, ah, is it another day?

362
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:11,680
I assumed as well.

363
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,680
Another day, another rebrand of ICS.

364
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,680
Join up as a fucking consumer chain or whatever.

365
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,680
I think it's specifically not ICS.

366
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,680
Can we rebrand consumer chain to surf chain?

367
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,680
We're taking an SERF.

368
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,680
Is that what we're talking about right now?

369
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:40,680
Of course, an Australian and something from the West Coast immediately go to the U, the word with U and then are really confused by that.

370
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,680
So Ramu SERF in Densha forever, in Densha forever.

371
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,680
That's that's what we were going for.

372
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:54,680
Yeah, Ramu says that the Adam economic zone is a meme of Adam 2.0, which was rejected, right?

373
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,680
I thought Adam 2.0 was rejected.

374
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:08,680
You see, once again, once again, Rama, you should just be on the fucking stream because this is how do you what was the I got a little baseball cap, not like this.

375
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:25,680
But actually the other day, and I spent a lot of time, sorry to go back to Merch again, but a lot of time basically making him look like he is in one of those awful sports metal bands, you know, from the early 2000s, where they will have the sideways cap and the baggy trousers.

376
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,680
Because obviously they're tiny, everything looks baggy on them.

377
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,680
So then you put on a sideways cap and it's just like a mini Fred Durst.

378
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,680
It's brilliant. They look awful.

379
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,680
Look, I write scumbags, even like as a baby, you're like, fuck, I would hate your band.

380
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,680
I would hate your band.

381
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,680
Sorry.

382
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,680
I just I just I don't know.

383
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:46,680
Like we printed these.

384
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:47,680
I'd actually don't wear baseball caps.

385
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:53,680
I'm not that I like quite like baseball, but I'm not asked about baseball caps, but I know that other people are.

386
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:59,680
So anyway, so fucking usurper has basically not taken off his hat since he had them delivered.

387
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,680
I was talking to him the other day.

388
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,680
It was literally fucking 1am where he is and he still had the hat on inside.

389
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,680
I'm like, are you trying to shield me?

390
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:09,680
Or is like, no, it is worth.

391
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,680
But but like doesn't he do my head?

392
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,680
Doesn't he get warm?

393
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,680
Like, because that's the thing I find with hats.

394
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,680
I'm just like, like, kind of cool.

395
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,680
But we also have a lot of hat on.

396
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,680
So fucking annoying.

397
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,680
And also kind of constricts your head.

398
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,680
You know, I mean, it like it makes you feel like you're less free.

399
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,680
Like I've got this thing on my head.

400
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,680
It's constraining my thinking.

401
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,680
It's a little bit.

402
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,680
That is a little bit whatever it is.

403
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,680
The Simpsons where he where Bart is on the ETT.

404
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,680
They give him an experimental new drug, don't they?

405
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:42,680
For ADHD.

406
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,680
And then he's just and he's like, I need to unconstrained my mind.

407
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,680
And then he puts Tim Ford on his head and then shoots down the satellite.

408
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,680
That's the episode of the Simpsons.

409
00:38:52,680 --> 00:39:01,680
So definitely remember that is the one which ends with the it turns out the satellite is spying on everybody on behalf of Major League Baseball.

410
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:12,680
And there's some baseball star from the period that episode was from turns up on the scene and is like, OK, folks, we should come clean with you.

411
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,680
We have been spying on you.

412
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:20,680
But would you like to know the terrifying reason that Major League Baseball has been spying on you?

413
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,680
Or would you like to see me hit some dingers and everybody's like, hit some dingers.

414
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,680
And he just like just does the end of the episode.

415
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:39,680
They just hit and then he pulls the pools like the black box or something from the satellite and then just hide under his hat, his baseball cap.

416
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:44,680
And then like does the little Simpson shifty I'd look around and then that's the end of the episode.

417
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,680
Not going to lie, though. Stopped watching The Simpsons 23 years ago.

418
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,680
Yeah, when it was still good, right?

419
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:51,680
Hmm.

420
00:39:51,680 --> 00:40:01,680
I gather you've missed nothing since because I don't think anybody's talking about any of the Simpsons from the last 23 years having classic moments like that one.

421
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,680
How long have they must have been running for like fucking 50 years?

422
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:06,680
The Simpsons.

423
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:07,680
Yeah.

424
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:08,680
I guess.

425
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:09,680
I think they're still running.

426
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:10,680
Yeah.

427
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,680
Well, fucking the South Park has 23 years under their belt.

428
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,680
How can you just still be motivated after 23 years of making a cartoon?

429
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,680
Surely more than 23 years because South Park started before the Millennium, didn't it?

430
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:23,680
South Park.

431
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,680
Well, I mean, they're up to season 23, aren't they? 24?

432
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:27,680
Yeah.

433
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:28,680
I don't think they do want to.

434
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,680
I think they can do one a year then because I mean, the fucking South Park.

435
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:32,680
Maybe they missed a couple of years.

436
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:33,680
Oh, yeah, they missed a couple of years.

437
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,680
The South Park movie was after series four, wasn't it? And that's like year 2000, 2001.

438
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,680
It has all the board wins in it as a relevant thing.

439
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,680
It must have been a long time ago.

440
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:46,680
The board wins.

441
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,680
Yeah, because it has that joke, doesn't it?

442
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,680
Like, oh, the board wins are dead.

443
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,680
Even Billy Baldwin.

444
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:54,680
No.

445
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,680
Whoever Billy Baldwin is.

446
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,680
The Simpsons has done a pretty good job with keeping current though, I think.

447
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:03,680
Like they had probably.

448
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,680
You mean South Park?

449
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:06,680
Yes, thank you.

450
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:07,680
I mean South Park.

451
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:08,680
Yeah.

452
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,680
South Park as well as staying current.

453
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,680
They had like, I don't know, 10 seasons or so.

454
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,680
I feel like it weaned off a bit.

455
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:21,680
But after like season 20, after the member barrier season, it's been, I think they've done much

456
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,680
better with renewing enthusiasm for it.

457
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:30,680
I remember seeing an episode with like very occasionally, I just did back into it.

458
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,680
And it's like, it's the one where they jump forward to the future.

459
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,680
It had carpet is like an elderly Jewish man and that sports.

460
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,680
Sorry, that probably should have had a spoiler alert in front of it.

461
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,680
And that entire episode was hilarious.

462
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,680
And then there was several episodes in like a run in like a story arc.

463
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:49,680
And that was actually pretty funny.

464
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,680
I was like, I don't care if I would want to be like, I am some very past this now.

465
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:54,680
And that was I am.

466
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:55,680
Okay.

467
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:56,680
Actually, it's quite funny.

468
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,680
I'm like, fuck off then.

469
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:01,680
Well done, South Park.

470
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,680
So as an economic zone, it's a meme, right?

471
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:05,680
Fine. Fair enough.

472
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:06,680
Memelords.

473
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,680
There's a lot of, there's a lot of, have you noticed how like the purported, like the

474
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:16,680
thought leadership is like inversely correlated with token price.

475
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,680
So like the more, the more the market's getting bearish, like the more fucked everything

476
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:27,680
is, the more it's time for like future brain, future brain men to come out of the, out of

477
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:34,680
the woodwork and deliver their future brain thoughts, which I mean, to be fair, if you

478
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,680
can like build any time it's during a bear.

479
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,680
So it's very hard to tell what is a future brain man thought and what is a actually good

480
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,680
idea or what will actually get built.

481
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,680
So maybe I should be less fucking jaded about it all.

482
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:47,680
But even so,

483
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,680
Well, also it's like on the downswing, whenever you want changes to happen or when people

484
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,680
think they want changes to happen because you're on a downswing, therefore we need to

485
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:56,680
change something.

486
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,680
So when someone comes forward, suddenly they're a savior.

487
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,680
I mean, I guess it's also like whether or not, so the really interesting thing to me

488
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,680
honestly, like is whether or not the app chain model can even support a second bull run.

489
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,680
I think that's like completely untested.

490
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,680
Because well, so my point is that like the app chain model at the moment is, hey, if you've

491
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,680
got Cosmos SDK and IBC, you're golden, right?

492
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,680
But it misses the fact that they all have one thing in common, they will have Cosmos SDK

493
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,680
and IBC, right?

494
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:33,680
Which functionally for a lot of outside observers makes them all one text stack one blockchain,

495
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,680
right?

496
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:40,680
So if you if it's all about catching a wave and it's all about like what is the current

497
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:46,680
generation of things and then everything else is an alt other than Bitcoin Ethereum, let's

498
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,680
say, then that's more interesting, right?

499
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:55,680
Because you end up with an entire ecosystem that actually and this could happen to Polkadot

500
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:56,680
as well, right?

501
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,680
So I think they probably, I mean, I don't know what the Polkadot price is doing right

502
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:05,680
now, but I suspect my fucking dot is not exactly going to put me into an early retirement,

503
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,680
possibly an early fucking grave.

504
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,680
I don't know, but like, I suspect that's not making me any money right now.

505
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,680
And I imagine the ecosystem, I would have thought is going to have a similar problem

506
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:21,680
to what Cosmos does, which is that although it is, you know, kind of, well, it's an ecosystem,

507
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:22,680
right?

508
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,680
It's a system of different interrelated networks.

509
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:30,680
They have enough in common that they may rise or fail, like they may succeed or fail together.

510
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:36,680
And if their time and their time may not come again, right, which is an interesting predicament.

511
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:44,680
Well, I mean, there's, there's chains in the ecosystem, like IE that use the SDK or like

512
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:53,680
early versions of like BNB chain and Kronos and something else probably, Tara, that were

513
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:59,680
for the longest time, like reasonably disconnect from the rest of the ecosystem and particularly

514
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:00,680
like BNB and Kronos.

515
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,680
Like if you ask their community anything about the Cosmos, they'll say, what the fuck is it?

516
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,680
Because they're just, they're marketed separately.

517
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,680
So not necessarily, I don't think to your point.

518
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:12,680
Yeah.

519
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:18,680
So it just depends on how they, you know, if you market it as an IBC chain, well, what's

520
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:19,680
IBC?

521
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,680
Well, that's this fucking ecosystem of stuff.

522
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,680
Then people are going to go, okay, and then that's, you know, now you're marketing as a

523
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:25,680
whole.

524
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:30,680
But if you're like, this is our BNB chain and we're not even connected to that other dog

525
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,680
shit, then, you know, the say approach.

526
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,680
Hey, well, I can't like say, obviously, like say, they're completely marketing separately.

527
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,680
Obviously, they'll be connected to, they're not calling out to anybody else dog shit,

528
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:44,680
but they are.

529
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,680
In fact, they're not out there going, look at us.

530
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:47,680
We're going to join the IBC gang.

531
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,680
They're out there going, we're going to build the fastest finality you've ever fucking seen.

532
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,680
And, you know, that's us come, come build a dex or something.

533
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,680
So, you know, there's different approaches which can disconnect you from the ecosystem

534
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,680
marketing wise.

535
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:04,680
Yeah.

536
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,680
And I think it's quite, because I think we've talked about it enough at the show that I

537
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,680
think, you know, the idea that IBC might be the thing that outlasts the actual, the

538
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:17,680
rest of it is like, not a new, not a new idea on this, on this pot, on this potty.

539
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,680
But yeah, I don't know.

540
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:25,680
It is, it is, I suppose, what was that thing we were talking about the other day that there

541
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:32,680
was that article you shared, short see, which was like, it was about like thinking about

542
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,680
thinking of the worst thing being a life skill.

543
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,680
Like, what have always been a comfortable life for me to think about the title was staring

544
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,680
into the business of core life skills, staring into the business of core life skill.

545
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,680
I mean, this is pure game of noise materialist.

546
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:50,680
This kind of this article, but like, I wonder if like, maybe I've taken that a bit to heart

547
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:51,680
after reading the article.

548
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:56,680
Maybe that's why I'm not in a negative headspace, but I would like, well, you know, nothing's

549
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,680
forever, dude.

550
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,680
Who knows.

551
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,680
But like, the other thing I've been wondering a lot.

552
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:09,680
And also, as inside funny in the chat that Ben has just said, Rama has just called my

553
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,680
work a meme.

554
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,680
So I believe Ben is part of the that.

555
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:16,680
Yeah, okay, right there.

556
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,680
Just they're just going to have it out in the chat.

557
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,680
We'll come back to that later.

558
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,680
So but one of the other things that's come up a lot recently, especially on Juno is like

559
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,680
this, the whole Babylon thing.

560
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,680
And obviously Babylon is expanding out into the cosmos.

561
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:35,680
But like, once I see the utility of it, I'm like, isn't the whole Babylon thing also

562
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:41,680
an admission that the DPOS doesn't really, I guess maybe it's the thing of like, why

563
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,680
not have more types of security, right?

564
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,680
Would be the counter argument.

565
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,680
Can you expand on that more though?

566
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:52,680
I don't quite understand why the existence of Babylon means that delayed proof of stake

567
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,680
is less viable.

568
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:01,680
Well, like before you do that, can you just explain to the viewers what Babylon does?

569
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:06,680
Was it it's just bringing like essentially, what's it called?

570
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:07,680
Not proof of stake.

571
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,680
The other one, the big boy work, the unit.

572
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:11,680
Yeah, proof of work.

573
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,680
Bitcoin is that thing again?

574
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,680
What was the sweet Jesus father of crypto?

575
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,680
The thing I spent with mine on pizza.

576
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,680
What the fuck was that called?

577
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,680
Something bit or something like that.

578
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,680
Queen something gold.

579
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,680
My dad calls it Bitcoin.

580
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:32,680
And I don't think he's doing it ironically.

581
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,680
I think he's just shit with like hearing.

582
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,680
He's a funny, funny guy.

583
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,680
Are you still doing stuff with the Bitcoin?

584
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,680
Dad, it's actually called the big con.

585
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:45,680
And yes, I'm doing very well.

586
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:46,680
Thank you.

587
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,680
It's quite the Ponzi.

588
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:49,680
Sorry.

589
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:50,680
Quite the Ponzi.

590
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:51,680
I'll have you know.

591
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,680
It's Triss evil mustache.

592
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,680
Where's Brandy?

593
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,680
Where's my where's my pipe gone?

594
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,680
Sorry, continue about your many pipes.

595
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:08,680
Give an explanation of Babylon with all of the technical details queued up.

596
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:09,680
Do I fuck?

597
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:15,680
I have a I have a I tried to remember how many weeks old my baby is then and then drew a blank for a second.

598
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,680
Seven week old baby.

599
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:23,680
No, I don't I don't other than the then I guess immediately as soon as there's a proof of that.

600
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:28,680
So, right, I understand.

601
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:33,680
So, okay.

602
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:38,680
So friends of mine call this call this Hugh Granting, right, which is when.

603
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:45,680
So I should clarify northern friends of mine call this Hugh Granting, like, which is where a southern friend of theirs.

604
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:53,680
Fails to make a point and just makes incoherent noises instead, rather than actually actually saying any words.

605
00:49:53,680 --> 00:50:00,680
Because it's like, it's very like some of the stuff from those like romantic comedies in the 90s.

606
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:09,680
But it's it's a verbal tick that is unfortunate that just it just it just sounds funnier if you have a southern British accent for whatever reason.

607
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,680
But obviously, anybody can do it.

608
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:16,680
And whatever the point is that like different.

609
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,680
This different right.

610
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,680
Well, I thought I was being laughed at.

611
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,680
So how far to defend myself back to the point.

612
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,680
The point is that like different types of security, economic security makes sense.

613
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:28,680
I get that.

614
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,680
And there are a lot of different things you can do within smart contracts.

615
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,680
A lot of things you can do with improve for stake as a concept.

616
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:40,680
The point is that proof of stake is broadly sold as this is a better system than proof of work, right.

617
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:46,680
And it is so definitively better that we want to abandon proof of work to move through the state is great.

618
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,680
And that argument has been made enough in enough context.

619
00:50:49,680 --> 00:51:09,680
And like I don't feel like that it is controversial in any way to say that that is something that the whole proof of work, every single proof of work train pretty much has as a given as a thing they're ready to throw back in people's faces who make any kind of criticism from like resource usage or finality or any number of different things.

620
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:10,680
Right.

621
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,680
It's like, no, no proof of stake is now the way we do things generally.

622
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,680
Obviously, I know there are a bunch of exceptions that rule blah, blah, blah.

623
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,680
But like it's been very, very heavily oversold.

624
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:20,680
Okay.

625
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,680
And not wrongly, like there's a lot of benefits to proof of stake.

626
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:25,680
Okay.

627
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,680
And obviously there's a variety of different types of proof of stake anyway.

628
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:32,680
And within those you can combine them to create another number of different types of security.

629
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:52,680
So my point is that it feels based on the way we've talked about proof of work for a long period of time, very, very retrogressive to suddenly go, oh, actually, it turns out that we actually do need proof of work after all, because our shiny new fucking proof of stake is actually Garbo.

630
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,680
That is what I feel like.

631
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,680
And that is maybe an irrational reaction.

632
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:02,680
But like the whole thing is that proof of work has always been an elegant solution.

633
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,680
It has always been an incredibly, incredibly elegant technical solution to the problem.

634
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:08,680
It's just that it doesn't actually scale.

635
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:09,680
Right.

636
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,680
Like nobody's denying that, I think.

637
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:23,680
But you just, I don't know that this is something that sticks in my corolla about about the kind of the shoe coming off the other foot now about like, oh, actually, there's a bunch of things that we that are much more desirable.

638
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:35,680
But instead of like, I don't know, it just feels like, and I know, I know this is maybe not like for some chains and a lot of the chains in the cosmos that are looking at this as a solution to also move towards things like mesh security, which is great.

639
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:42,680
So it's not like people are just abandoning novel solutions and going, oh, we can just relax and use proof of work.

640
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,680
But I don't know, it just feels like super weird.

641
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:50,680
It's like, I don't know, there's just something about it that feels super weird, just like, why do we need this?

642
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:55,680
I mean, so my take on it is proof of work has its place, right.

643
00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:05,680
And if we can adopt a current proof of network network and leverage its security in some form or fashion, rather than like spinning up another one, that's ideal.

644
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:06,680
Right.

645
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:12,680
Like we don't we don't need thousands of proof of network chains to add more energy and efficiencies.

646
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:17,680
Now, I don't really understand still the intricacies of Babylon.

647
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,680
It's kind of one of those things where other people are excited about it.

648
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,680
So I'll just be enthusiastic.

649
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:31,680
But if we're able to leverage multiple different paradigms of security and it works, I think that's a key point at works.

650
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:33,680
We probably should.

651
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:34,680
Yeah.

652
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:35,680
The other thing I guess I don't know.

653
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:46,680
And as an aside, I probably should have had my mini I'm an idiot rant at some point in the future because I believe we might actually be able to get Matt Bell on the podcast who can tell me what I'm wrong.

654
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,680
But the other thing is like it's a bit strange to see like Babylon coming.

655
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:57,680
I guess things got delayed, but like the whole point is Babylon bridging BTC into into the cosmos, right?

656
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,680
But that that was also no mix thing, right?

657
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,680
Wait, is Babylon bridging Bitcoin into the cosmos?

658
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,680
I didn't realize it was doing that.

659
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,680
I thought that was the goal.

660
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:13,680
I mean, I've once again, look, the real smart people are in the comments anyway.

661
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,680
So tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was the whole point of Babylon.

662
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:29,680
I thought the point of Babylon was to, you know what, I don't know enough to make any sort of claims and I don't want to be spreading false information as if I'm some sort of authority on the matter.

663
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,680
But I don't think I don't think the purpose of Babylon is to bridge in Bitcoin.

664
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:33,680
It's not bridging is it?

665
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,680
I've reminded myself from the about page what it is about.

666
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,680
It's not quite that is it?

667
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:41,680
So they are slightly different use cases.

668
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:49,680
But then God, this is this is back when we get to my idea of shit about Bitcoin problem or at least I don't own any Bitcoin anymore.

669
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:50,680
And I'm not that interested in it.

670
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:57,680
But like, it reminds me that I am very, very, very out of date on how it's being expanded out into other networks.

671
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,680
So whatever.

672
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,680
I understand no, because at least like that's just bridging an asset.

673
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:04,680
I'm like, yeah, bridges.

674
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:05,680
Yeah, it's very good.

675
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:07,680
I understand this.

676
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:12,680
Babylon is all very whatever, man.

677
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:21,680
Well, in conclusion, sorry, everybody, just ignore the last 10 minutes of my of my of my tired ran here.

678
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:25,680
Like why the fight to me Babylon turns out the 10 minutes of Hugh Granting.

679
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,680
Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure they're actually great.

680
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:36,680
I mean, I'm a there we go in the chat.

681
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,680
Somebody has gone one one line a six sink one liner.

682
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:45,680
Babylon gives cosmos chains.

683
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,680
It gives cosmos change the ability to timestamp their block on Bitcoin.

684
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,680
There you go.

685
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,680
So I guess we I guess I guess we need that.

686
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:05,680
I guess I just still don't understand really why that is like what's achieved by reducing unbonding time right like you can change the bottom time to a week.

687
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:16,680
Are they suggesting that using Babylon will take unbonding down time down to like seven seconds, or however long one block of Bitcoin takes a minute or whatever.

688
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,680
Like, I guess I guess that still doesn't answer to me.

689
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,680
Like, what's achieved by reducing unbonding time.

690
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,680
Deep dive on that.

691
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:34,680
Yeah, I guess we had this conversation to me previously where we're like, is it is it the case that unbonding time of even one day is enough to deter like,

692
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:41,680
like at what point because it's got to be like a it's got to be like a nonlinear relationship, hasn't it?

693
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:48,680
Like the incentive structure of unbonding time is probably about some kind in terms of what what majority of users will do it.

694
00:56:48,680 --> 00:57:02,680
A majority at a given day and then it's just like different days is like the shifts, you know, I mean, like everybody will unbond and then here and then after a while it will be like an actual curve and then after here will be like nobody will bond.

695
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:23,680
So like it will be like, hey, if you sleep if you sweep a band pass filter through the audio frequency with a high the audio range with a high Q, it will look like that right where we'll go swoosh across their high point whom and that would be the probable incentive structure of no one knows what

696
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:34,680
you're talking about. I know you're talking about but man you're you're what swoosh boom. Wow. That yeah, people can't understand that.

697
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:44,680
Here zero hurts. Sorry. Yes, there's in the podcast. I'm really apologize for this. But here zero hurts. Here say 20 k Hertz swoosh. Hi Q. Wow.

698
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:54,680
That's what I'm talking about. I don't really know. I have no formal math training. So although I know that this will be statistics.

699
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:59,680
Would it distribution what what distributions what branch of math does that fall into.

700
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,680
Distributions but I'd say public statistics.

701
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:04,680
I mean like distributions.

702
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:14,680
I'm a say somebody with math. Wait, don't you have to do math in your job or something. You must have maths. Who are you talking to me.

703
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,680
I was reading this statistics.

704
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,680
I don't even know you're talking about.

705
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:30,680
So you lost me after a woman's swoosh and I was like a fucking I need to go back to Babylon. In my mind having a longer unbonding period of like two weeks is a feature.

706
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:41,680
I'm not just changing our body to one day. Why why does the security of Bitcoin allow for that as opposed to you know some networks have as most as 14 days for example.

707
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:42,680
Right.

708
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:46,680
And I don't see an inherent reason why we couldn't just reduce it down to seven days as well.

709
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:52,680
I'm sure if I went back and read the tendermint documentation or get some darn answers or not.

710
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:58,680
But like yeah I mean why can't unbonding on unbonding time be one hour 30 seconds.

711
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:03,680
It's a feature like you want there to be some sort of unbonding time so you have some sort of skin in the game right.

712
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:05,680
That was my assumption.

713
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,680
So what long range attacks.

714
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:12,680
You just need to get on and explain this to us like what are you doing.

715
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,680
Garnsey is here by the way Garnsey's steak seat I'm pretty sure.

716
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:21,680
And Garnsey you or you should hop in and jump in and say something.

717
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,680
I don't think I've ever seen Garnsey or heard him.

718
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:26,680
I'm not sure if he's like doxified.

719
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:28,680
They've been in the chat before.

720
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,680
I guess what's a long range attack.

721
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:48,680
This is I mean we probably I think what we've concluded here is that the game of the goal of Babylon is something very very very different from what we think it is and that by so again to those in the pod.

722
00:59:48,680 --> 01:00:00,680
We make the joke a lot about this being the group chat this is just the call that we have every week and we podcast it out of a combination of masochism and self importance.

723
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:02,680
The two of us fighting.

724
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,680
You are watching three validators fly on controllably.

725
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:15,680
You are literally watching three people in real time try and suss out what the fuck Babylon is about and somewhat failing.

726
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:21,680
So yeah there's definitely more action like in the in the chat here.

727
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:44,680
So in the chat and Davis so Ben Ben Rama gas gas me and others have been basically as me forming us what the hell is actually up with this stuff and Ben has suggested that the chat take over the podcast and I can only conclude that would lead to more informative content at this point.

728
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:52,680
We just need when when start going to be back from getting the cigarette suss the other question I don't think that's coming back is not coming back.

729
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,680
No, it's feeling particularly abandoned at this point.

730
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,680
I mean he would know he would he would know.

731
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:02,680
But I mean to be fair none of us validate at Babylon right.

732
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:08,680
I mean I threw my hat in the ring and then I just like didn't get a call back you know what I mean.

733
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:09,680
Yeah me too.

734
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:11,680
So partial match.

735
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:20,680
He gets it I'm telling everyone the validators don't know what long range attacks are spot on people keep saying it's a long range attack.

736
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:23,680
I don't know what that means.

737
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,680
Explain yourself man.

738
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:40,680
Oh that's just the that's just the tech I've looked at it's just the technical term for the so you know the 51% attack on proof of work is the equivalent where you create a fake version of the chain but for proof of stake.

739
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:44,680
For all the listeners who are like you know frustrated with our failing.

740
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:53,680
Gazzany says David see the founder gave a recent talk on a 16 Z YouTube channel.

741
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:55,680
It's got everything you need to know.

742
01:01:55,680 --> 01:02:00,680
So you know there's a resource with people that know what they're talking about.

743
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:02,680
Oh, did you do this already.

744
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:04,680
I can do this.

745
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:06,680
I'll send Rama the invite.

746
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,680
He's not my friend on discord so I can't send him one.

747
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:11,680
He's probably rock watched it.

748
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,680
We are guys we sent.

749
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:21,680
We sent Rama a gift from the from the gone group chat.

750
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,680
By the way, I'll tell you what it is because he does invite.

751
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:29,680
I sent him an invite just now but no we IRL sent him some mail.

752
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:35,680
What greater gift is there than an invite to the weirdest podcast that's currently in the crypto verse.

753
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:37,680
We just need to door in the room.

754
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:40,680
At this point can we really call it a crypto podcast.

755
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:46,680
I don't feel like we've talked actually about crypto that much in the last at least six months.

756
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,680
Oh, error.

757
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:52,680
I mean, we could talk more about crypto.

758
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,680
So this possibility.

759
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,680
Do the listeners really want to hear about crypto?

760
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,680
I mean, probably.

761
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:09,680
Hey, we talked about when I kind of went undercover to that to that conference and it was all academics talk about stuff.

762
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,680
There was a lot of interest in theoretical crypto stuff then.

763
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:24,680
So the fun thing about theoretical crypto is from my experience and what I've read, there seems to be a very big dearth of like understanding between theoretical crypto and what's actually happening in the crypto verse.

764
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:26,680
That's my take.

765
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:34,680
Yeah, that was sort of there was there were basically two different things going on as far as I can tell there was a group of people who were like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if this happened?

766
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:35,680
It's like, yeah, that's already been built.

767
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:37,680
I already exist.

768
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:44,680
And then there was like, hey, we're just going to present our paper and then go.

769
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:47,680
But we're we actually like launched a bunch of stuff.

770
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:53,680
And it's all very, it's very big brain like defy stuff.

771
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:56,680
And we thought it was pretty clever. So we got a research paper out of it.

772
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:58,680
Hi, oh, and anyway, catch you later.

773
01:03:58,680 --> 01:03:59,680
We're out.

774
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:04,680
And it was like, okay, those are the guys, those are the guys you want to talk to these other people.

775
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:05,680
Less so.

776
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:18,680
And then as we've established with this Babylon thing, I'm not the guy to do that talking to anybody because I'm a very slow learner and theoretical grasp on things take some time and energy.

777
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:23,680
And I have to actually kind of care quite a bit about something to get my head around that is the other problem.

778
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,680
It's a little bit like so.

779
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:28,680
It's too close.

780
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,680
It's too close to both, isn't it?

781
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:32,680
Caring so tedious.

782
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:43,680
What it is, you know, hey, you know, you serve a different way after have to go to have those cigarettes.

783
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,680
Dad came back to you.

784
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,680
Yeah, cigarettes age you. I did forget the milk. Sorry about that. But here we are.

785
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:53,680
I got some milk for you in the fridge.

786
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:55,680
You're only down the road.

787
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:56,680
I'm so glad you are.

788
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:58,680
You're looking well.

789
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:00,680
I'm tired.

790
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:01,680
You look tired.

791
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:02,680
Three year old.

792
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:08,680
Yeah, I have a three year old in the lounge room currently eating cereal and late for daycare.

793
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:10,680
So here we are.

794
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:11,680
All good.

795
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:12,680
Wait a minute.

796
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,680
Don't you have a new bean as well? Or you got one on the way?

797
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:17,680
No. Yeah. New new boy.

798
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:19,680
So we can a couple of days old as well.

799
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:21,680
He's sleeping with mom.

800
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:23,680
Delivered.

801
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:24,680
Yeah.

802
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:25,680
Shift.

803
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:30,680
Bring us version 2.0 shipped the stock airdrop.

804
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:31,680
Stalk drop.

805
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:33,680
Is that what you call it the other day?

806
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:34,680
Stalk drop.

807
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:35,680
Something like that.

808
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:36,680
One of one.

809
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:37,680
One of one.

810
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:38,680
One of one.

811
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:39,680
Stalk drop.

812
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:45,680
I don't know how much time I have, but essentially, yeah, Frey, you got it right.

813
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:51,680
So Babylon chain, it's going to bring in Bitcoin blocks.

814
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:57,680
And the intention is that every Cosmos chain that implements Babylon will have a Bitcoin

815
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:03,680
block ID signed in that block number to prevent long range attacks.

816
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:09,680
So intention is to be able to reduce block times to hours in the short term.

817
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:13,680
I think Osmosis is going for five or seven hours.

818
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:15,680
That's the plan for the first release.

819
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:20,680
And that'll be verified by, you know, whenever you go back through time, there'll be Bitcoin

820
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:21,680
blocks.

821
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:27,680
So you can't really fake another version of the chain and kind of fork it and take over.

822
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,680
So that's, that's like the premise of Babylon.

823
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:32,680
I think there's a number of chains looking at it.

824
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:34,680
Osmosis is kind of leading the charge.

825
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,680
Evmos, Juno, I think Huwa also is looking to do it.

826
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:42,680
Chihuahua, I don't know how you guys pronounce it.

827
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:44,680
I like the idea.

828
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:45,680
Huahua.

829
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:46,680
Huahua.

830
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:47,680
Chihuahua.

831
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:53,680
The only other thing that I think a lot of people are kind of skipping over with regards

832
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:57,680
to Babylon is the actual IBC client timeouts.

833
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:03,680
Or the threshold, which is like the timeout between the two chains.

834
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,680
So it needs to be like two thirds bonding period, I think.

835
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:08,680
Yeah.

836
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:09,680
Two thirds bonding period.

837
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:14,680
And you can't actually reduce that currently with the current version of IBC.

838
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:16,680
It's an actual IBC limit.

839
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:21,680
Spoken to kind of Jack and I briefly spoken to Jack about it.

840
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,680
And they're not actually sure how people are going to implement lower bonding periods with

841
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:26,680
that.

842
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:31,680
Either a fork of the IBC code or the IBC team will need to implement something or Babylon.

843
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:35,680
I do actually remember that conversation, despite the sleep deprivation.

844
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:38,680
So that makes sense.

845
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:43,680
But the point is that like back to the long range attack stuff.

846
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:50,680
I don't really see why, I don't see how with the mechanisms that tend to have mint has in

847
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:51,680
place.

848
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:55,680
Now I understand what the long range attack thing means.

849
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:59,680
It's essentially the forgery of the chain, right?

850
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:01,680
It's the term for that.

851
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:05,680
So tend to have a number of different mechanisms in place to stop this, right?

852
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:08,680
A known set of Genesis validates, for example, Gen TX.

853
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:13,680
So if you're submitted a Gen TX, that's a way of knowing who actually has the authority

854
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:16,680
to create the first block.

855
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:22,680
So my question would be like, I don't, I feel like possibly I've missed something very fundamental

856
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:23,680
here.

857
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:29,680
I can see there's a number of different problems that can arise in terms of economic security,

858
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:37,680
in terms of like bank runs and capital flight liquidity, all that sort of stuff to do with

859
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:39,680
really, really low bonding periods.

860
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,680
You know, we're talking like maybe less than a day, something like that.

861
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:46,680
Like it's going to introduce a lot of volatility into the asset.

862
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:52,680
But I feel like I've missed the memo on where the long range attack vector is there.

863
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:57,680
Because fundamentally, you still can't bootstrap a chain from nothing.

864
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:03,680
And then in addition, you have a bunch of other things, you know, block to block, which actually

865
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:09,680
guarantee some continuity of the validator set.

866
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:13,680
And like you say, there's things like IBC timeouts, there's a number of different stateful mechanisms

867
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,680
built into the chain that actually do preserve continuity.

868
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:24,680
So is this simply that the idea is that when the number gets small enough, you could have

869
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:29,680
the entire VALSET hypothetically switch out between two blocks?

870
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:31,680
Yeah, like 60%.

871
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:33,680
Yeah, exactly.

872
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:39,680
And in between that period is like, let's say we have a block and then all of a sudden

873
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,680
66% of the VALSET says, no, this is now the new version.

874
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:48,680
And by the way, we now have 99% of the total chain supply continuing on from there.

875
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:52,680
Babylon would say, well, actually, the Bitcoin numbers don't reference that.

876
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:54,680
You're a fraud validator set.

877
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:56,680
Away we go.

878
01:09:56,680 --> 01:10:03,680
Okay, so then we've literally, we've solved a hard problem by pushing the role of distributed

879
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:07,680
consensus onto a Bitcoin block.

880
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,680
Essentially, that's kind of what I understand it.

881
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,680
Which like, I may have understood that wrong.

882
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:19,680
There might be some stuff there, but as somebody who's like, interested in this stuff because

883
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:24,680
they came out of distributed systems, that definitely feels like a retrogression step.

884
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:32,680
Like, I mean, Bitcoin is the proof of chain viability for like a Bitcoin block, right?

885
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:34,680
Versus the VALSET and consensus.

886
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:36,680
I want blockchains to get as fast as Apache Kafka.

887
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:42,680
I want to be able to put three petabytes of data through a second in a 99,000 core cluster.

888
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:44,680
That's how you get quick.

889
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:46,680
That's how you have for fun times.

890
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:48,680
I'm not sure it's whatever, man.

891
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,680
If I was smart enough to do that, I would be working with it.

892
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:52,680
And we can only go so fast, right?

893
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:54,680
Because Bitcoin blocks are only so fast, right?

894
01:10:54,680 --> 01:11:00,680
So in future versions, and I've talked about this briefly and feel free to tell me to shut up and we'll move on.

895
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:07,680
You know, tandem in and in Cosmos isn't going to be all comet BFT isn't going to be the consensus mechanism for every cosmos chain going forward, right?

896
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:10,680
We're already seeing new consensus mechanisms come out.

897
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:11,680
They're faster, they're more efficient.

898
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:16,680
They're not being used readily at the moment, but they will be if comet doesn't kind of pick up its game.

899
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:22,680
IBC is going to be the thing that bridges everything and what's underlying that doesn't necessarily matter.

900
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:29,680
So for me, you know, I don't really look or care too much about the underlying consensus mechanism I care about.

901
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:33,680
IBC and how it integrates and what can be faster.

902
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:38,680
And briefly, evolutions was dropped today, you know, tune of evolutions.

903
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:53,680
It's referenced in there, like, you know, already moving out modules of the core SDK with regards to governance, moving towards things like, you know, CW SDK and the like, because they just move too slowly, like comet BFT and tandem.

904
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,680
They're very good, but they're very slow.

905
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:03,680
So the future is probably not going to be those unless they kind of improve the rate in which they ship.

906
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:09,680
And, you know, what we know now won't be the same in, you know, three years time.

907
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:10,680
I don't think.

908
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:19,680
Well, so just like theoretically, the, the, a lot of the consensus mechanisms engines that have come out since were very heavily inspired by the work that was done on Tenderman.

909
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:26,680
But, you know, Tenderman is now what's 2016, I think.

910
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:38,680
So, you know, if you think about like, you know, all the things that are now all the hot stuff and all that stuff, stuff that's been done since I was reading some stuff that I didn't fully understand about a different suggested way of getting.

911
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:39,680
So a bit of a callback.

912
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:52,680
We had the, what was it, Big Balls, Brick coin episode a little while ago where we were talking about the, the consultation on the digital pound where they say like 30,000 transaction per second or get the fuck out like that's the baseline performance.

913
01:12:52,680 --> 01:13:01,680
I've been reading some of the stuff on like the, the technology suggestions for like, it's probably not going to be DLT.

914
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:10,680
But some of the technology suggestions for like, okay, hypothetically, if it was going to be DLT, how would we like just blank piece of paper?

915
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:11,680
How do we do it?

916
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:16,680
Know what we know about current consensus mechanisms, knowing what we know about distributed systems.

917
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,680
And that stuff is very above my pay grade.

918
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:26,680
But it is interesting and it is absolutely not how Tenderman or many of the current consensus mechanisms work.

919
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:31,680
Like people are looking at super fast stuff, they are, they are thinking of very, very novel ways of doing stuff.

920
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:39,680
And like you say, Rama, that's the thing you kind of look into and going, well, yeah, probably going to be on top of something else.

921
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:44,680
But again, that's definitely the mood of the room of the podcast, I guess, and it has been for a while.

922
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:50,680
So, hey, I think he's gone.

923
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:52,680
I think he's caught.

924
01:13:52,680 --> 01:14:00,680
Maybe, I think maybe a small, a small human is like killed his feng shui.

925
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:04,680
No, I was making sure that she's eating her breakfast.

926
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:07,680
Yeah, we can hear in the background now.

927
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:13,680
It's it like, it's so funny because like obviously Nala Rama on the same console.

928
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:14,680
We have a guest.

929
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:16,680
I'm going to say hello to everyone.

930
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:17,680
Wave.

931
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:19,680
Hello.

932
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:22,680
Hello, mate.

933
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:25,680
Are you eating your breakfast?

934
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:31,680
I have a, I have a hard one.

935
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:35,680
Makes noises and.

936
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:37,680
I feel like you have a great ears.

937
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:39,680
No, she can't.

938
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:40,680
They want to know about crypto.

939
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:41,680
Do you know about crypto?

940
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:42,680
No.

941
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:44,680
No, not interested.

942
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:46,680
Just cares about fly trucks and blades.

943
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:49,680
So you know about Bitcoin.

944
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:54,680
Can you get your daughter to explain Babylon to us, please?

945
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:56,680
Yeah, she does do a lot of babbling.

946
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:58,680
So she probably could do a pretty good job.

947
01:14:58,680 --> 01:14:59,680
It's funny.

948
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:01,680
You guys are on the same.

949
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:02,680
It doesn't look like it.

950
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:06,680
It looks like there's very different things going on.

951
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:10,680
Well, single bachelor life versus, you know, dad life.

952
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:12,680
I guess it's also like.

953
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:16,680
It's all artificial lighting for now in the basement as well.

954
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:17,680
Yeah.

955
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,680
I really bright lights like, you know, behind that curtain that's

956
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:21,680
hung on the wall.

957
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:23,680
It's just like an LED strip.

958
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:24,680
Yeah.

959
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:26,680
The periodic your parents pounding on the floor.

960
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:28,680
No, are they doing down there?

961
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:30,680
Are you talking to your friends again?

962
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:32,680
Are you talking to those?

963
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:36,680
Don't show anyone your dick networks.

964
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:37,680
I actually got the ceiling.

965
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:38,680
All right.

966
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:39,680
I do have to drop.

967
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:40,680
I sort this kid out.

968
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:41,680
Get ready for daycare or go drop back down to.

969
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:42,680
Viewer.

970
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:43,680
Thanks.

971
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:44,680
Thanks for jumping in.

972
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:45,680
I really appreciate that.

973
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:47,680
That makes way more sense now.

974
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:48,680
See you around.

975
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:49,680
Okay.

976
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,680
So in conclusion, it turns out we kind of did figure out what it

977
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:56,680
was kind of, but we did need ramen set straight.

978
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:57,680
So there you go.

979
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:00,680
Also now I'm curious though.

980
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:03,680
So he said that other chains can implement Babylon.

981
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:06,680
Does that mean that does that mean there's going to be like

982
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:09,680
cosmos change, sending a transaction into Bitcoin and like

983
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:10,680
time stamping ourselves?

984
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,680
So let's say 10 chains implement Babylon.

985
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:17,680
Did I mean for every Bitcoin block, there's going to be 10

986
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:19,680
transactions from a cosmos change.

987
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:21,680
Then they'll have to keep feeding Bitcoin.

988
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:22,680
Like what?

989
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:23,680
Yeah, I guess so.

990
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:25,680
That just seems hilarious to me.

991
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:28,680
Look, look, look, short see the circle state continues.

992
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:30,680
That is, that's the one.

993
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:34,680
The only thing better than a Ponzi is an even bigger Ponzi.

994
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:36,680
No, Babylon does that for us.

995
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:38,680
So we don't need to create our own transaction.

996
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:40,680
Babylon will have Babylon.

997
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:43,680
Does it need to create a transaction on, on Bitcoin?

998
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:46,680
So if it creates one transaction, that'll be sufficient for all

999
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:47,680
networks.

1000
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:49,680
Is that, is that how that works?

1001
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:55,680
This is the most of the strangest episodes we really,

1002
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,680
really cannot do without you, sir.

1003
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:03,680
But presumably it's all like in the same encrypted message.

1004
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:04,680
Yeah.

1005
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:09,680
It must just, it must just take a little bit more than hash it.

1006
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:10,680
Yeah.

1007
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:12,680
I think by 64 or something.

1008
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:13,680
Okay.

1009
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:14,680
That makes sense.

1010
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:15,680
I mean, that's cool.

1011
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:17,680
I was just going to say, like, if all the change start like pumping

1012
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:20,680
transactions into Bitcoin, like,

1013
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:22,680
like all the blocks are just.

1014
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:24,680
Yeah, exactly.

1015
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:26,680
Drivel.

1016
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:27,680
Yeah.

1017
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:30,680
Well, and then it'll be create a weird economic incentive where like,

1018
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:33,680
only the big chains can afford to use Bitcoin for their security

1019
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:38,680
but because they're a big chain, they kind of don't need that security.

1020
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,680
Like there'd be some sort of weird interaction happening there.

1021
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:46,680
I mean, even if, even if Babylon just included one transaction per

1022
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:51,680
block on Bitcoin, it's probably like, you know, 20% of the transactions

1023
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:52,680
on Bitcoin.

1024
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:55,680
Really, we should use Monero.

1025
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:57,680
Do all the time stepping with Monero rather than Bitcoin.

1026
01:17:57,680 --> 01:17:58,680
That's, that's my take.

1027
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:00,680
Or just something cheaper than Bitcoin.

1028
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,680
Cause presumably this is costing money, right?

1029
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:05,680
I mean, isn't Monero a privacy chain?

1030
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:06,680
Yeah.

1031
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:08,680
I mean, that's part of the joke.

1032
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:09,680
But yeah.

1033
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:10,680
All right.

1034
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:11,680
Gotcha.

1035
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:12,680
Roger.

1036
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:14,680
Gotcha there.

1037
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:16,680
Just went straight over my head.

1038
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:19,680
I mean, I'll throw in for like, Bitcoin.

1039
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:20,680
I mean, does it matter?

1040
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:21,680
Well, I guess there's proof of work.

1041
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:23,680
Isn't it the point is it's called the proof of work.

1042
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:25,680
But then.

1043
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:27,680
Yeah.

1044
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:30,680
Because hang on a minute, right?

1045
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:31,680
Okay.

1046
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:35,680
I've just, I've just done some more, I've done some more thinking here.

1047
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:36,680
Right.

1048
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:38,680
If the fact that, so, right.

1049
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:42,680
From that, I think we've established, I think as my understanding is then

1050
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:47,680
that the, the long range attack part comes in, that your, your

1051
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:51,680
unbonding period is, is quick enough that you could have significant

1052
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:55,680
moves in the Valsa enough to actually knock out consensus, right?

1053
01:18:55,680 --> 01:18:59,680
At which point aren't you going to end up having the same, well,

1054
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:02,680
you're not going to have quite the same problem as flash loans where you

1055
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:05,680
have literally everything occurring in the same block, right?

1056
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:09,680
Which is people can attack you with really novel and quite weird

1057
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:12,680
strats because they all do happen in the same block.

1058
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:16,680
But if you have an unbonding period suit that's super, super short,

1059
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:21,680
forget the, forget like the breakdown of actual consensus of chain level

1060
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:23,680
and chainhole.

1061
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:27,680
Presumably there's some pretty sophisticated like fuckeroo you can do

1062
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:31,680
in terms of just like messing with the actual, like, like the actual

1063
01:19:31,680 --> 01:19:34,680
chains, liquidity and stability, right?

1064
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:39,680
Because, yeah, what, what, what is to, well, I guess the problem is that

1065
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:43,680
like, right, so the things that obviously you're staking is, is,

1066
01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:45,680
is governed by external percentage anyway.

1067
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:50,680
So other than the fact that the amount is changing perhaps more quickly.

1068
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:53,680
So the rate is less stable.

1069
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,680
I guess there's probably no deliberate attack surface there, is there?

1070
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:02,680
I mean, but what about not to go back to Prop 16, but I had Prop 16.

1071
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:04,680
All roads lead to Munich.

1072
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:05,680
Exactly.

1073
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:09,680
Well, so a lot of people were shit on by people in Prop 16.

1074
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:12,680
I think the only reason why they weren't re-delegated from, and there was

1075
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:15,680
a lot of re-delegation is because of that unbonding period.

1076
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:20,680
And suddenly unbonding is like one hour and Twitter turns against a validator

1077
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:24,680
and they just like lose all their like personal delegations in one run.

1078
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:27,680
That I don't know, sounds kind of scary.

1079
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:33,680
I argue that the drift of delegations wouldn't be that big.

1080
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:40,680
Like mainly because I feel like over the longer term, the delegators actually

1081
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:41,680
get lost.

1082
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:45,680
Like you just, a lot of people just delegate and then you never see them again,

1083
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:50,680
which is a big advantage for long-term validators in terms of like gathering steak.

1084
01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:54,680
But at least you won't lose all of the delegations.

1085
01:20:54,680 --> 01:21:00,680
So an interesting, an interesting other thing is that like in other networks,

1086
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:07,680
I think there's the model where, and this, so my understanding of how this is implemented,

1087
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:14,680
I need to look at the code more closely, but I've spent part of the week getting a better understanding

1088
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:20,680
of how we're trying, attempting to get a better understanding of how the staking works in Aptos.

1089
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:24,680
And essentially the majority of, like the entire thing is just a smart contract.

1090
01:21:24,680 --> 01:21:28,680
The difference is it has entry points where governance can change things, right?

1091
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:34,680
So there's a series of things that could only really be basically enacted by the governance module,

1092
01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:44,680
giving itself the permissions as an executor, like with key matter, as if it were an executor to do things like

1093
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:47,680
changing the inflation rate or something like that, right?

1094
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:51,680
So the model there is that validators are very, very fungible.

1095
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:59,680
Like they can be like, you can see the long-term ambition is that validators, there should be a lot of them

1096
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:06,680
and they should be fungible because the operator doesn't necessarily, the operator of the validator doesn't necessarily vote,

1097
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:13,680
and the voter entity is like completely separate, and then the owner is also a completely different person.

1098
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:20,680
It's not, there's also a model for distributed staking or so delegate-proofed state, but it's quite, again, quite different.

1099
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:27,680
But the key thing is that the floor is so high, like it's not like one atom to spin up a validator.

1100
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:34,680
And that's the thing that stops the redelegation is that, well, that's the thing that in a hypothetical future world,

1101
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:42,680
stops the redelegation, stops the validator becoming totally fungible, is just the floor, which is a very blunt mechanism.

1102
01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:50,680
But it's interesting to go like, actually, well, if the floor on Juno was just rather than being or atom cosmos,

1103
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:58,680
or atom osmosis, whoever, instead of being one, it was like 100,000, 200,000, whatever a minimum floor was,

1104
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:01,680
where you're like, even in the bear market, this is profitable.

1105
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:03,680
This is profitable. It has to be profitable.

1106
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:09,680
Your TVL on the chain staked, like locked, just has to be higher because the validators have to do it.

1107
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:14,680
You have to design your tokenomics in such a way that you actually can ensure,

1108
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:21,680
or you think you can ensure, at the time of design the tokenomics, that it's likely people will be able to actually make enough money

1109
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:25,680
based on the percentage that will be locked and then the percentage of emissions.

1110
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:30,680
And that ahead of time, it's a bit of a hit and hope, but that's an interesting thought.

1111
01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:33,680
What is that number? How would that work?

1112
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:39,680
The more I understand how those smart contracts work, the more I think, well, I don't think it's a different thing.

1113
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:41,680
I don't think it's better or worse. I just think, okay, that's really interesting.

1114
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:44,680
I can't believe I haven't understood that before now.

1115
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:47,680
Well, and there are some cosmos chains that have minimums.

1116
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:54,680
Kudos, they're minimum, I think they're minimum is like 2 million tokens in order to become a validator there.

1117
01:23:54,680 --> 01:24:04,680
So that is being seen around and more so than just like, oh, it happens to be that floor of 100 validators has capped out.

1118
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:06,680
There are chains that have that.

1119
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:12,680
Yeah, is this whether or not you can actually work that into the tokenomics, I guess, in a kind of longer term way?

1120
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:38,680
Or have it as a feature, not a bug or something?