Literally took two minutes. I was I asked the question and I said, this is my problem. Here is the fucking the document like copy pasted it. And then it's like, oh, just do this. You dinkus.
It looks like a pretty shit solution to me to be honest. I saw it was like, I wouldn't use that.
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the Cosmos from independent validator teams.
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the Cosmos from independent validator teams. And we are now at the point of the bear market, I guess, or at the point of the technological singularity where we're quite happy to just outsource our validator operations to
chat GPT, it seems. So is it a new low? Is it a new high? You decide.
Hey, man, I've seen enough people use it to do things that took me like a week to do. And it takes you like eight seconds to have existential dread from chat GPT.
Did you not have existential dread already?
Well, I was kind of in a permanent state of dread. But now it's like, there's two stages and I'm definitely in stage two.
There might be more stages, but I'm definitely past the original stage.
I recently discovered that everything, everything, the kind of British guitar, pop band put out a new record last year and I missed it when it came out. I don't know why. There's a track on that.
I don't know what's cool. I don't think it's software great man. But there's another track on there where the chorus is, you're in love with the future. And I don't know why. And I just, I heard that and I was like, this song could not be more where I am right now.
And then literally chat GPT came out the week later and I was like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, 100%. And the weirdest thing actually is that they have weird lyrics, right? Anyway, at the best of times.
And this was, I guess, was put in about a couple of years ago when they were writing the album, they're from and basically just like put a bunch of prompts into a natural language net that a friend had made to just see it spit out, like from his own seeds of actual song lyrics, garbage.
And it basically just spat out what looks like Jonathan Higgs is actual lyrics. Like it's one of those where they're like, oh yeah, a bunch of it is actually just like computer gibberish. And it's it's a statement about and then like you look at it and you're like, you could you can run you can sing you can crush every bluebird on the planet and you're like, I, I don't know if that's Jonathan Higgs trying to be poetic or if that's the computer erroring. I actually honestly couldn't tell you if that is a normal everything everything lyric.
Or that is computer says no. But also related to the on a previous album, 2015 gets to heaven for those paying attention to the discography or everything everything. They also have a song called was spring summer winter dread, which is also oddly, oddly relatable to the current situation.
I don't think relevant. I don't take kindly to that to fall being dread spring summer spring summer winter dread. Yeah. Yeah. No, as a as an autumn child, I take offense.
Well, I mean, it's autumn is just absent. The point is that the season coming or the changing the season brings I mean, I guess if it comes after spring, not to get too multi Python about it, presumably it's spring that's dread. They just skipped awesome.
Maybe. Maybe. Hey, look, you know, these are all things you should take up on the everything everything official forum or their subreddit or whatever passes for such a thing in this advanced technological hellscape.
Okay. That's that's what I say about that.
I'll just do what I normally do and write a strongly worded letter. That's like one of my favorite hobbies. If I like find a product that I don't like, I'll write the company like listen, you should got to do better.
Have you actually done that?
Oh, man, I should have shown you I have like an entire stack of responses from companies and like I have a direct like line in on the Tillamook ice cream because I've mentioned them so many times like they used to have. Well, they do still have ice cream chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream.
And they're they're cookie chunks you have to get like literally like four in a quart of ice cream or quarter half ice cream, and they'd be like this big, they'd be huge and there's just the four of them. And so I mess with them was like, What the hell are you doing?
Like you have such a good base here and you have like no actual cookie dough bits you got to like do better. And so they sent a message to be like Oh, well our quality control meets the highest standards.
And I was like, Well, clearly it's not high enough because you need to like distribute it better. And so now there's like whenever they come out with a new ice cream, they'll send me a ticket for it so I can try it and for other companies too.
It's just the weird thing that I don't know. I don't know how we can. But yeah, I write companies whenever I find a product that I think they can prove a bond.
I say that all it's like a phrase that I use when people say, Oh, this fucking this thing's shit. And I'm like, Well, you should write them a fucking letter. You should get out the good station area and write them a letter.
And I don't think anyone ever has but that is fucking phenomenal that you're a person that does that. I love that.
I say you not. And that I think the companies appreciate it too because they almost always get a good response of like, Wow, we've never got a response like this before. What are your other thoughts or whatever.
I think there's a ticket to get some more something to the CEO. Here's three.
So I didn't like to complain.
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So there's that little tidbit. That's that's actually a really fun hobby because sometimes you'll just receive an email out of the blue back from a company you forgot that you messaged.
And they're like, Hey, we just addressed this. Here's a here's a free ticket. I'm like, Oh sweet. I get I can go get some some tortilla chips next week. Awesome.
So I when I was a kid, I remember like, I remember someone saying like, Oh, if you write a letter that you got like, you know, a pencil in your packet of chips, they'll send you like a box of free chips.
I guess there's some truth that maybe not a box of free chips, but like, you know, it's a big it's a big problem for large companies that like, I remember there was a whole thing.
The friend a friend worked for a large British retailer and they had to deal with the situation where there was a, I want to say a planet of strawberries.
And there was a rat and they were threatening to go to the papers with rat dead rat in the in the strawberries.
And they they had to obviously submit the rat for as part of the complaint. And they were like, you know, we want we want 30 grand. Otherwise we're going to the papers. This is unacceptable.
And they were like, well, we need to see evidence of this rat. Right. So they sent the right now. Like, but you know, we've got evidence this this happened blah blah blah.
Don't try and pull fast one. And then because obviously the amount of money they essentially getting blackmailed for they like, here's the thing, right.
Fuck knows whose job is.
What's the words like pathologist. Yeah, right. Who's a rat pathologist. Okay. But whoever was the rat pathologist, I assume that's actually just a vet.
But hey, maybe there's a specialist rat pathologist was like, the rat has been poisoned.
But he don't know if the rat was poisoned before or after it died. We just know it has poisoned in its system, which it raises a lot of questions.
That's all I'm saying. There's, you know, it's like an escalation. You think that there's actually been a bit of quality control slippage and what you actually discover is murder, albeit of a rat.
Did they get their 30 grand?
No, but they did get a payoff. Because apparently, like, it's it's the papers, like if they have a slow news day, they might just publish any garbage.
And you look like as a big company, like you can't just well, you can just sue a newspaper.
But damages done.
Well, yeah, but it's also it's kind of like, it's like a bad sport thing. And it also might if you ever advertise with that paper, it might, you know, interrupt that relation.
There's a lot of reasons why you just write it off as well as a big fuck up and you move on like rather than like the Streisand effect kind of thing.
You don't want to like draw a bigger fucking crosshairs on your back. You just go like you put out a prepared statement, you say, this is probably somebody, you know, we have highest quality standards, unless this is submitted to us and tested independently, blah, blah, blah, we have no interest in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So instead to just stop having to go through that whole path, potentially, you just pay them five grand or a grand or give them a bunch of store credit and turn the fuck off.
Essentially, it was like what I gather happened, but wasn't close enough to it to be 100 cents. But I did I gather they didn't get the 30k but I think they might have got like 500 quid or something like that.
I don't know.
But yeah, the rat was murdered. Right. Justice for rat.
I mean, so I think strawberries is like $4 or $5 right if they got 500 out of it. That's a cool 100x. That's, that's still a good deal.
It's good business. Good business plan. If you can scale it. You just need enough retailers to hit up with the rat scam. But apparently it's really common anyway, scams of that nature.
Yeah, no, I don't try and scam. I try and do it like, I guess as an engineer would like I'll take a picture of the product code and like all the identifying information so they know where the source was from and then like provide all that alongside like the quality control issues.
I'm not messing around. Like I've got it down.
It's like you're you're outside the building stalking it with your long range fucking lens.
It's like a vigilante. It's like a little hacked into the system to find out the exact person that was on the control line that day and you've like followed them home.
Exactly. Right. Yeah.
So, so we were artifact and I were when we were at sushi. That's what we were laughing about. We were laughing about me going and messaging companies about that at Eve Denver.
Oh, yeah, the the fucking sushi restaurant.
Yeah, when you were falling apart. Yeah, that was why we're talking about this.
Yeah, there was a lot of fucking laughing going on. I was like, what in the fuck is this about man?
Like, pray, shiltsy was literally falling off his fucking seat, man. I've never heard someone giggle so much in all of my life.
I'm like, there's something real funny going on over here and I've got no idea what it is. So I'm just going to laugh along pretend they're not laughing at me.
Well, so so artifact he, I guess he has like a doctorate in.
He's got a doctorate or masters. He has he has some some higher education in like if he's a doctorate, then we are surrounded by doctors at this point.
Right.
Because you know, we found out why not no doxin but we found out another another person in the extended game and those family is a doctor making you know what's the what's the phrase imposter syndrome intensifies like.
Yeah, so that was stage one of existential dreaded imposter syndrome. Stage two is chat to PT.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit is posting about how they're like code using it to copilot and write code and I'm like, yeah, but then what's the fucking point of your life?
Look, man, I had a problem. I consulted who mans. We couldn't figure it out. I asked chat GBT jet P.
Yeah, but that's infrastructure. That's Ansible is not it's not really it's kind of it's codish. It's mainly YAML files. It's not it's not that it's code. It's that it wasn't a problem.
You know, I'd ask chat GPT to write me some YAML. I mean, it's fucking YAML. You know, I mean, like, nobody gives a fuck about YAML.
But like, it's not it's not good. But my point is if you have a fuck is it took me a fucking day to get it to work.
Yeah, welcome to why people try and palm off ops on other people and why ops engineers can like write a number on a piece of paper and say, yep, that's the number of people go really I mean, I'm pretty sure I could hire two programmers for that and they go, yeah,
and the programmers can't be fucked to do this. Can they know they can't write. Okay, right. What was the what did you want this check made out to that that's that's my experience of working in ops contractors, man.
I mean, they're usually obviously really good because they, you know, you have to be to survive and stay sane in the ops game as a contractor, I guess, but so partial partial match says you found some fucking plastic in his spaghetti, sent them a sent them an email and their resolution was to give him discounts to buy more
hines. That's what literally always happens. I always just get like discounts for or free products from from the same thing like oh you didn't like these bag of chips have another one.
Yeah, I mean like what else do they have.
They've got chips.
You're like, oh, oh, that's still her.
Like, I was supposed to hurt you.
So I don't know that kind of seems like you're working for free to give them product advice and then they charge you.
Yeah, this is why we need you server here like you serve who would be like, right come on Dylan how long to type you to write a letter and then you know let's let's get some numbers going here.
So like you said letter.
Take some big L's on the on the behalf of you know, big ice cream or whoever it is you're writing to.
It's so it's worth every minute of entertainment though because one time message someone and I guess they had like a third party contractor handle their ops and they were like, this sounds really serious I'm just going to send it off to the founder or something and I was like oh okay.
The third party management people just couldn't do it.
I discovered a thing the other day actually I did have to write it wasn't strongly read a letter but I did have to get in touch with customer support.
Because true true to brand I was trying to book a train but I couldn't for reasons, which will become clear.
And I was just like okay right I just need to move this to the business account.
No worries.
I tried to use like the one the business emails we have and it didn't work and I said what the fuck so say it long story short I get in touch with them and it turns out that if you've ever checked out as a guest, you've had to provide an email to send your booking to or or phone number
whatever or just collect it at the station with a code right.
I didn't think they didn't think with that email but apparently their system actually creates a ghost user and then you can never use that email again.
And I had literally discovered this bug in their system by just being.
What's the one poorly organized enough that I needed to try and like use a different email other than the account actually had registered as well what what what other emails do I actually own okay this one this will work.
Can I can I move this to this and then that will solve all my email based problems.
And they were like oh yeah it turns out actually we can't move emails and it just generically errors somewhere deep in the mythical stack here.
And I was like oh you're welcome and I said never my rate card.
No I didn't say that to a customer service representative using the call center that would be incredibly glib and and crass of me but makes a funny one liner for a second there.
One of the lands in the office I used to work in actually used to also be a bit of a serial customer complainer and his but his were.
I would say probably I can't see yours being that petty shortsy whereas his were like he's still also bulk buy things.
So like he got and I think you got like some kind of sporting injuries he was like I need some bath salts.
So conclusion was not to and they come in like you know you seen bath salts right you know they're like a kilo or something is the minimum size whatever.
Somebody tell me I don't know how many baths that is but a few I would guess he bought 24 of those new just in case right but we're talking bulk he's a bulk order in kind of guy.
Of course one of the split it trads it and then I go into the office one day like I'm just hooking my bike upstairs and I just hear on the phone and he's gonna have to have an Alan Partridge voice whatever he's just like well look I'm looking on the box here and I would not say this is sufficiently packed.
And that cool that was that was that was I gather halfway through what would end up being an hour and 10 minute call to resolve the split bag of Epsom bath salts.
But he did get a full refund.
I think for half of the crate you got full refund for the split bag and then also wrangled a refund for half of the crate.
But then I don't know if he ever used was like 24 or something like that so you ever can get through 12.
That's such an insane amount that's a huge shit like that all the time like literally maybe half the week I mean he had a job I don't know what he was doing in between all these customer service calls but our coffee machine in the office blew up very boy we years we have this piece of shit.
Bought a new one it blew up after two and a half months right and it's a really weird period of time because things up to six months you have to return to the retailer and after six months you return to the manufacturer right under European consumer law right but it's the consumer right consumer rights like 1976 possibly anyway.
And not important the point is that most most retailers like 14 days isn't it and then they start to be a bit fucking funny about things so coffee machine blows up with like what the fuck this is we just bought a new coffee machine and then we like all have exactly same thought we literally all touch turn on our chairs.
This guy we're just like hey man.
What are you.
What are you up to today.
You want to go to bed.
What are you up to.
So you know how the coffee machine is fucked.
So yeah, yeah, that's pretty bullshit isn't it like.
Well it's actually.
You think about it's only two and a half months old isn't it.
He's like.
Hasn't breached the consumer rights like 1976 and isn't it.
And it's like we may have might be might be I mean I'm not familiar with the legislation mate but I mean I mean I've got the rest analysis of what the other side work we actually got the receipt my desk somewhere like you know pulls out and he's like oh yeah it's really pissed me off actually when things like this happened.
I literally we packed him off with the thing under one arm.
He came back an hour and a half later with his lunch obviously picked up on the way back.
He came back with a new coffee machine and apology from the manager.
A written apology from the manager and 1010 pounds of store credit.
He said well actually I'm doing some behalf of the office I work in I actually did not make this original purchase although I am authorized to bring this back and we're you know so I actually you know for the cost of this coffee machine.
I think everybody in the office would just appreciate like a note from you to say sorry for this incident because it has been quite disruptive as I'm sure you can imagine they literally wrote like a one like it was like a one night was like sorry for your trouble.
That's really that's all it does just that that requires some tenacity I'm not that level I send the information and let them decide how they want to make like make it up to.
They want to make a man.
It's like that they're like forgive me sure see for I've said.
Yeah, you're right.
The consumer protection in Australia is pretty good you're never going to get a letter from a store manager but you can have something fuck out up to two years and just take it back and be like fix it.
If it's if it's within a certain timeframe notice replace it if it's like within another certain timeframe notice return to base.
Another timeframe they'll they'll like actually repair the fucking thing.
So British law isn't superb but European law is like it's it's five years and then the thing in British law is what's called a reasonable expectation of use.
Which is different for different things like my reasonable expectation for use for a laptop could be like quite reasonably five years let's say and then I think European consumer law is.
For years for big devices something like that something in the chat is going to correct me anyway.
But the upshot of it is that like Apple care try and sell you Apple care for three years.
There's no point you tell them to go fuck themselves because and I've done this this does work.
You turn up after four and a half years with a failed hard drive and they go oh sorry no Apple care and you go.
Yeah, consumer rights out mate and they go oh you've pressed the magic button that has elevated you to the status of a free repair and it just happens.
You've walked through fucking column number five.
It literally it literally goes from go fuck yourself to I you've quoted the legislation we immediately have to do this for you.
It's great like it literally does it literally does work that point but then as soon as you tip over the like whatever the legal precedent for reasonable expectation of use I think is the wording whether that's five years or six years.
The second you tip over that day on from the date of your receipt.
Then they flip back to you like reasonable expectation of use now like reasonable expectation of kiss my nuts and you're like kiss my ass.
Steve Jobs Jobs and then they they take all your money and send it to the South Cofcus of Jobs.
That's how it works.
Well then so moving on then how about the tombstone of the week the freight you have the you have the graphic ready.
Wow two ways ready.
That's a poor bloody.
Yeah fuck you sir.
What.
Right.
I'm like I was going through all the the IRL stuff and I'm like what the fuck is this like a handle.
It's like I you sir.
Yeah so you should you should just address for those of you for those of you that they're listening later you might have noticed it's been very quiet from a certain corner.
I'm like I'm not sure what the
SEPA is is is not here today he will be joining a little bit later.
It was pretty much this situation genius you're fucking one because you'll never see me again.
So that was.
I do I get good value of that clip when I added to the role.
Yeah so it's two times yes to fucking resplice the audio.
Every time every time we smash one of those buttons that's just another edit for SERP and he's usually the one that stops us from having fun so.
The private check can you stop.
So here's the thing right as well we we got a viewer we got a viewer question right.
Well hang on hang on hang on.
So the tombstone the tombstone sorry sorry.
I just want to say we had a viewer question right and it's typically said they're interested to hear what you sir for thought about it.
And I was just like yeah of course because we're not adults like it's like it's really obvious that none of us should have responsibility or anything that's like.
Let me speak to the manager.
Exactly it's like let me speak to the person who actually knows what's up.
I want to direct my question to you sir.
But you're like yeah OK that fucking figures doesn't it that's 100% how it works.
Right.
Teamstone of the week shy fucking up gonna hit the button again.
Fucking yeah because.
Please Timstone of the week now.
Steak Cito.
Teamstone of the week on Evmos I believe.
But have no fear they're spinning up a new validator and you can re delegate to it.
So I think the purpose of the tombstone if you ask me.
Well I mean if you ask if you ask 90% of people they feel like that.
They feel like the whole.
If you ask 90% of people they all think that like the double sign tombstone is bullshit anyway so.
I tend to agree.
But anyway.
TM KMS snafu with.
I didn't quite understand the explanation but it seems like.
I read it what.
What.
So it seems to me that potentially they spun up a new validator.
Probably after waiting for it to state sync for fucking 20 hours.
They must have copied.
I think what they did they redirected their TM KMS.
But the other validator was still running.
And reverted to the on site file like potentially they probably turned off the.
The redirect to the well the listen address for the signer.
Which then would have gone back to local while they're trying to like you know use it as a spare or whatever.
Yeah that's why you delete that file and it just creates a new one when it spins back up.
Yes well you know.
Yes that's the correct way to do it.
And you put that little Jason file that lovely little Jason file on a hard and hard drive and you go and put in a bank vault.
And then you know.
A little bit of YAML a little bit of Ansible they could have just done that automatically.
But maybe they chat GPT wasn't out then.
I mean using team came us in general is kind of gosh at this point.
Like I hear someone's using team can mess and I'm like wow people still use that.
If you're not going to hold on like why the hell what are you doing.
We have friends that use TM KMS.
We still use TM KMS.
Very gosh then.
So gosh.
Well if you're doing if you're doing if you're using one to one then there's not a huge amount of right.
So there's two arguments one you just go fuck it run it on the node because SSH has to be compromised before realistically you're going to lose access to a node.
Number two you can use bastion host to give you access to a set of IPs and then just say fuck it again.
Keep it on the node to give us a fuck.
And option three is Horcrux right but we we'll be doing Horcrux to do a one to two or a one to one.
And we haven't I literally even have a node pretty much configured set up with all the stuff for Horcrux in our AWS account but just stopped.
Make sure you turn off TM KMS first lol.
Yeah, obviously.
But like the as in the the the EC2 instances deactivated and it doesn't have any key matter on it.
Yeah anyway.
But just so far one and team came us actually encrypts the single signer key.
So that's at least a step better than Horcrux single signer doesn't encrypt it.
So that is one benefit of Tim KMS as well.
Yeah, I think this is one of those where I'm just like it.
It works.
We have a pretty stable setup with it.
If we have to do say like a major piece of infrastructure change, then I think we would just basically deprecate that server and then do Horcrux.
But when you're going to do DJ and Horcrux there is not as much, you know, to tell between them.
I think if we were really, really actively expanding in the cosmos again and we were going to go okay well we'll have multiple like it like have a proper raft of of Horcrux.
No, it's then that's a very, very different like that's a very, very different scenario and then you know Horcrux makes a lot of sense.
But you know, being super blunt like we're just we're just not making enough in cosmos that it's actually worth the hours or time at the moment to be moving things or overcomperating things that currently work.
And we're pretty confident that as and when we do decide to go off, I'll get you know we should just do Horcrux could be about she done most of the legwork.
It's only going to be half a day to move over but yeah, I don't know.
So for those who are listening, the fray turned off his camera a little while back and then has reappeared wearing his new merch the needle cast hat.
And so now he not only has a god awful fucking God Ray on the side of his face he now has a shadow halfway across his face.
But it's a nice hat.
It's a nice hat.
It's a good hat.
I mean, I can turn on the light but it's such a weird time of year where it's just sort of getting dark or it's just got dark.
Is that is that a window?
I thought you don't have windows up there.
There's a window just here.
Oh yes.
But yeah, but there's no light coming through right so it's dark but it's dark now.
It's just got over to the side is the contrast on your face is like the white is just exploding off one side of your face and there's a line through the middle of it where there's like a shadow.
That's cool. My nose just to be clear.
Well now it's no there's like a diagonal line across your face where your brim is blocking your light and your nose.
I'm just yeah, I don't know.
I think that's just I think that actually might just be my face.
I think that fucking I think that light section now is actually blowing the pixels out to full white on my monotone bit anyway that aside.
So fucking bright.
Is it not bright for you?
It's not that bad.
Yeah, not sure about that.
Yeah, it might be a little bit.
It is to be fair.
I mean, it is a brightish light but it's also I mean it's like a warm orange.
I think it's possibly that the camera is not really good enough to deal with the direct light source kind of it.
It's peripheral.
But yeah, we've got to ask.
Yeah.
Thank you for introducing it.
We do have some new merch all the better for your ping with.
Like what are you going to do with that though?
You're going to send it to me or like what's what are you going to do with the merch?
You can have one if you would like.
Are they like a good quality hat like usurpers hats?
Yeah, these are new era ones.
So you know like the you know like the baseball what you know the American what's the phrase I'm looking for the franchise baseball MLB MLB.
You know like the MLB baseball caps are all new era ones like the official ones.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Is new era a brand?
Yeah.
There are the official ones on this.
That's like I haven't just hallucinated that have I?
Did you just wake up knowing that one day you dreamt it up?
Is that even a real brand?
Yeah.
It's like it's like a thing.
New era.
I saw it on someone's hat in GTA 5.
Yeah.
MLB NFL NBA.
Yeah.
It's like the it's like the official one I think.
Oh, Ryan has remembered the the slogan.
Your butt shield down.
That's the one we are actually legit working on some merch for that like for the podcast that we keep talking about podcast merch.
We are actually going to do it.
But yeah, that's trash though that needs some work.
Yeah, I know it's whatever.
Fuck off.
Anyway, the point is good hats actually legit good hot good quality hats.
They are new era 940s and they're going to be used to try and drum up business or just impress people in general.
A few conferences we're going to.
So what kind of quantity did you order?
What conferences are you going to?
Amongst other things we're going to money 2020 in Amsterdam and Brussels blockchain week.
And there's no real correlation between places that have good beer and nice cultural attractions that I might want to go to in the weekend before and after the conferences.
Not that you would that is that is complete coincidence.
And you certainly didn't go to them.
Yeah.
And you know, I will be arriving there directly going directly to the conference getting as bored as possible by the most boring talks I can find and then immediately getting back
over the channel to good old Brexit Island and wait the weekend following didn't you need to do like the following weekend?
I thought you had to meet up with some other teams there and do some collaboration.
Fuck knows.
I don't know whatever.
I haven't really like at the moment.
That's that's that's for the tax man man.
That's for the tax.
We'd let the thing is if if I wasn't reasonably sure we would be dropping out new business from going to things, I wouldn't pay for going to shit because that's exactly how tight arms as a business owner director whatever the heck it is.
What kind of business are you hoping to drum up there?
Money 2023.
Well, so in order to get a discounted pass, I have had to specifically say that we are a product business.
So we were not there as a consultancy firm now and I resent the implication that we're going to use it to try and draw our consultancy business.
That's obviously not what we're going to what we were going to do.
Otherwise we would have had to pay for a full price ticket.
We're going to be talking about the various protocols we've launched in in Web 3 to other parties so that we can collaborate, discuss ideas, challenges, novel invent incentive schemes and how that might interface with TradFi.
You know, there's those sorts of human to human interactions we're really looking for because we're not really like looking to raise funding or anything.
So it's easier more than fact-finding.
I almost went to sleep.
We had to literally to get our discounted pass three rounds of proving that we would actually somewhat qualified to get a discounted pass as a startup.
It was fun.
Ramas says dad isn't here to keep them under control.
It is a little bit like that.
So we do have a few things on the spreadsheet, but like I'm kind of like, you know, given that we know that you said, you said he was just going to go out for some cigarettes.
So like I've got to assume he will be back at that point.
And I'm kind of saving the topics from it's like, it's like, dad, where are you?
Where have you got your cigarettes?
Daddy, are you ever coming back?
Do you want to talk to us about the asterbach and oxone dad?
Yeah, so what is the asterbach and oxone?
Like that's come up this week.
And I was like, does that just mean people are using ICS?
Is that it?
I don't think so because people have been listing it as like the Adam economics on ICS and liquid sticking module.
I think I don't think they're the same.
I have been seeing a lot lately that like projects should leave other protocols and go to where the Adam economic zone is.
I don't know. I don't know what it is.
Is there like a medium or something?
I don't know.
Hey, everyone's trying to happen on this, the stream and explain to us.
Yeah, Ramu would know.
We're just validated plebs.
Yeah, definitely like I've seen the same thing as ICS.
I just literally I literally read that and went, ah, is it another day?
I assumed as well.
Another day, another rebrand of ICS.
Join up as a fucking consumer chain or whatever.
I think it's specifically not ICS.
Can we rebrand consumer chain to surf chain?
We're taking an SERF.
Is that what we're talking about right now?
Of course, an Australian and something from the West Coast immediately go to the U, the word with U and then are really confused by that.
So Ramu SERF in Densha forever, in Densha forever.
That's that's what we were going for.
Yeah, Ramu says that the Adam economic zone is a meme of Adam 2.0, which was rejected, right?
I thought Adam 2.0 was rejected.
You see, once again, once again, Rama, you should just be on the fucking stream because this is how do you what was the I got a little baseball cap, not like this.
But actually the other day, and I spent a lot of time, sorry to go back to Merch again, but a lot of time basically making him look like he is in one of those awful sports metal bands, you know, from the early 2000s, where they will have the sideways cap and the baggy trousers.
Because obviously they're tiny, everything looks baggy on them.
So then you put on a sideways cap and it's just like a mini Fred Durst.
It's brilliant. They look awful.
Look, I write scumbags, even like as a baby, you're like, fuck, I would hate your band.
I would hate your band.
Sorry.
I just I just I don't know.
Like we printed these.
I'd actually don't wear baseball caps.
I'm not that I like quite like baseball, but I'm not asked about baseball caps, but I know that other people are.
So anyway, so fucking usurper has basically not taken off his hat since he had them delivered.
I was talking to him the other day.
It was literally fucking 1am where he is and he still had the hat on inside.
I'm like, are you trying to shield me?
Or is like, no, it is worth.
But but like doesn't he do my head?
Doesn't he get warm?
Like, because that's the thing I find with hats.
I'm just like, like, kind of cool.
But we also have a lot of hat on.
So fucking annoying.
And also kind of constricts your head.
You know, I mean, it like it makes you feel like you're less free.
Like I've got this thing on my head.
It's constraining my thinking.
It's a little bit.
That is a little bit whatever it is.
The Simpsons where he where Bart is on the ETT.
They give him an experimental new drug, don't they?
For ADHD.
And then he's just and he's like, I need to unconstrained my mind.
And then he puts Tim Ford on his head and then shoots down the satellite.
That's the episode of the Simpsons.
So definitely remember that is the one which ends with the it turns out the satellite is spying on everybody on behalf of Major League Baseball.
And there's some baseball star from the period that episode was from turns up on the scene and is like, OK, folks, we should come clean with you.
We have been spying on you.
But would you like to know the terrifying reason that Major League Baseball has been spying on you?
Or would you like to see me hit some dingers and everybody's like, hit some dingers.
And he just like just does the end of the episode.
They just hit and then he pulls the pools like the black box or something from the satellite and then just hide under his hat, his baseball cap.
And then like does the little Simpson shifty I'd look around and then that's the end of the episode.
Not going to lie, though. Stopped watching The Simpsons 23 years ago.
Yeah, when it was still good, right?
Hmm.
I gather you've missed nothing since because I don't think anybody's talking about any of the Simpsons from the last 23 years having classic moments like that one.
How long have they must have been running for like fucking 50 years?
The Simpsons.
Yeah.
I guess.
I think they're still running.
Yeah.
Well, fucking the South Park has 23 years under their belt.
How can you just still be motivated after 23 years of making a cartoon?
Surely more than 23 years because South Park started before the Millennium, didn't it?
South Park.
Well, I mean, they're up to season 23, aren't they? 24?
Yeah.
I don't think they do want to.
I think they can do one a year then because I mean, the fucking South Park.
Maybe they missed a couple of years.
Oh, yeah, they missed a couple of years.
The South Park movie was after series four, wasn't it? And that's like year 2000, 2001.
It has all the board wins in it as a relevant thing.
It must have been a long time ago.
The board wins.
Yeah, because it has that joke, doesn't it?
Like, oh, the board wins are dead.
Even Billy Baldwin.
No.
Whoever Billy Baldwin is.
The Simpsons has done a pretty good job with keeping current though, I think.
Like they had probably.
You mean South Park?
Yes, thank you.
I mean South Park.
Yeah.
South Park as well as staying current.
They had like, I don't know, 10 seasons or so.
I feel like it weaned off a bit.
But after like season 20, after the member barrier season, it's been, I think they've done much
better with renewing enthusiasm for it.
I remember seeing an episode with like very occasionally, I just did back into it.
And it's like, it's the one where they jump forward to the future.
It had carpet is like an elderly Jewish man and that sports.
Sorry, that probably should have had a spoiler alert in front of it.
And that entire episode was hilarious.
And then there was several episodes in like a run in like a story arc.
And that was actually pretty funny.
I was like, I don't care if I would want to be like, I am some very past this now.
And that was I am.
Okay.
Actually, it's quite funny.
I'm like, fuck off then.
Well done, South Park.
So as an economic zone, it's a meme, right?
Fine. Fair enough.
Memelords.
There's a lot of, there's a lot of, have you noticed how like the purported, like the
thought leadership is like inversely correlated with token price.
So like the more, the more the market's getting bearish, like the more fucked everything
is, the more it's time for like future brain, future brain men to come out of the, out of
the woodwork and deliver their future brain thoughts, which I mean, to be fair, if you
can like build any time it's during a bear.
So it's very hard to tell what is a future brain man thought and what is a actually good
idea or what will actually get built.
So maybe I should be less fucking jaded about it all.
But even so,
Well, also it's like on the downswing, whenever you want changes to happen or when people
think they want changes to happen because you're on a downswing, therefore we need to
change something.
So when someone comes forward, suddenly they're a savior.
I mean, I guess it's also like whether or not, so the really interesting thing to me
honestly, like is whether or not the app chain model can even support a second bull run.
I think that's like completely untested.
Because well, so my point is that like the app chain model at the moment is, hey, if you've
got Cosmos SDK and IBC, you're golden, right?
But it misses the fact that they all have one thing in common, they will have Cosmos SDK
and IBC, right?
Which functionally for a lot of outside observers makes them all one text stack one blockchain,
right?
So if you if it's all about catching a wave and it's all about like what is the current
generation of things and then everything else is an alt other than Bitcoin Ethereum, let's
say, then that's more interesting, right?
Because you end up with an entire ecosystem that actually and this could happen to Polkadot
as well, right?
So I think they probably, I mean, I don't know what the Polkadot price is doing right
now, but I suspect my fucking dot is not exactly going to put me into an early retirement,
possibly an early fucking grave.
I don't know, but like, I suspect that's not making me any money right now.
And I imagine the ecosystem, I would have thought is going to have a similar problem
to what Cosmos does, which is that although it is, you know, kind of, well, it's an ecosystem,
right?
It's a system of different interrelated networks.
They have enough in common that they may rise or fail, like they may succeed or fail together.
And if their time and their time may not come again, right, which is an interesting predicament.
Well, I mean, there's, there's chains in the ecosystem, like IE that use the SDK or like
early versions of like BNB chain and Kronos and something else probably, Tara, that were
for the longest time, like reasonably disconnect from the rest of the ecosystem and particularly
like BNB and Kronos.
Like if you ask their community anything about the Cosmos, they'll say, what the fuck is it?
Because they're just, they're marketed separately.
So not necessarily, I don't think to your point.
Yeah.
So it just depends on how they, you know, if you market it as an IBC chain, well, what's
IBC?
Well, that's this fucking ecosystem of stuff.
Then people are going to go, okay, and then that's, you know, now you're marketing as a
whole.
But if you're like, this is our BNB chain and we're not even connected to that other dog
shit, then, you know, the say approach.
Hey, well, I can't like say, obviously, like say, they're completely marketing separately.
Obviously, they'll be connected to, they're not calling out to anybody else dog shit,
but they are.
In fact, they're not out there going, look at us.
We're going to join the IBC gang.
They're out there going, we're going to build the fastest finality you've ever fucking seen.
And, you know, that's us come, come build a dex or something.
So, you know, there's different approaches which can disconnect you from the ecosystem
marketing wise.
Yeah.
And I think it's quite, because I think we've talked about it enough at the show that I
think, you know, the idea that IBC might be the thing that outlasts the actual, the
rest of it is like, not a new, not a new idea on this, on this pot, on this potty.
But yeah, I don't know.
It is, it is, I suppose, what was that thing we were talking about the other day that there
was that article you shared, short see, which was like, it was about like thinking about
thinking of the worst thing being a life skill.
Like, what have always been a comfortable life for me to think about the title was staring
into the business of core life skills, staring into the business of core life skill.
I mean, this is pure game of noise materialist.
This kind of this article, but like, I wonder if like, maybe I've taken that a bit to heart
after reading the article.
Maybe that's why I'm not in a negative headspace, but I would like, well, you know, nothing's
forever, dude.
Who knows.
But like, the other thing I've been wondering a lot.
And also, as inside funny in the chat that Ben has just said, Rama has just called my
work a meme.
So I believe Ben is part of the that.
Yeah, okay, right there.
Just they're just going to have it out in the chat.
We'll come back to that later.
So but one of the other things that's come up a lot recently, especially on Juno is like
this, the whole Babylon thing.
And obviously Babylon is expanding out into the cosmos.
But like, once I see the utility of it, I'm like, isn't the whole Babylon thing also
an admission that the DPOS doesn't really, I guess maybe it's the thing of like, why
not have more types of security, right?
Would be the counter argument.
Can you expand on that more though?
I don't quite understand why the existence of Babylon means that delayed proof of stake
is less viable.
Well, like before you do that, can you just explain to the viewers what Babylon does?
Was it it's just bringing like essentially, what's it called?
Not proof of stake.
The other one, the big boy work, the unit.
Yeah, proof of work.
Bitcoin is that thing again?
What was the sweet Jesus father of crypto?
The thing I spent with mine on pizza.
What the fuck was that called?
Something bit or something like that.
Queen something gold.
My dad calls it Bitcoin.
And I don't think he's doing it ironically.
I think he's just shit with like hearing.
He's a funny, funny guy.
Are you still doing stuff with the Bitcoin?
Dad, it's actually called the big con.
And yes, I'm doing very well.
Thank you.
It's quite the Ponzi.
Sorry.
Quite the Ponzi.
I'll have you know.
It's Triss evil mustache.
Where's Brandy?
Where's my where's my pipe gone?
Sorry, continue about your many pipes.
Give an explanation of Babylon with all of the technical details queued up.
Do I fuck?
I have a I have a I tried to remember how many weeks old my baby is then and then drew a blank for a second.
Seven week old baby.
No, I don't I don't other than the then I guess immediately as soon as there's a proof of that.
So, right, I understand.
So, okay.
So friends of mine call this call this Hugh Granting, right, which is when.
So I should clarify northern friends of mine call this Hugh Granting, like, which is where a southern friend of theirs.
Fails to make a point and just makes incoherent noises instead, rather than actually actually saying any words.
Because it's like, it's very like some of the stuff from those like romantic comedies in the 90s.
But it's it's a verbal tick that is unfortunate that just it just it just sounds funnier if you have a southern British accent for whatever reason.
But obviously, anybody can do it.
And whatever the point is that like different.
This different right.
Well, I thought I was being laughed at.
So how far to defend myself back to the point.
The point is that like different types of security, economic security makes sense.
I get that.
And there are a lot of different things you can do within smart contracts.
A lot of things you can do with improve for stake as a concept.
The point is that proof of stake is broadly sold as this is a better system than proof of work, right.
And it is so definitively better that we want to abandon proof of work to move through the state is great.
And that argument has been made enough in enough context.
And like I don't feel like that it is controversial in any way to say that that is something that the whole proof of work, every single proof of work train pretty much has as a given as a thing they're ready to throw back in people's faces who make any kind of criticism from like resource usage or finality or any number of different things.
Right.
It's like, no, no proof of stake is now the way we do things generally.
Obviously, I know there are a bunch of exceptions that rule blah, blah, blah.
But like it's been very, very heavily oversold.
Okay.
And not wrongly, like there's a lot of benefits to proof of stake.
Okay.
And obviously there's a variety of different types of proof of stake anyway.
And within those you can combine them to create another number of different types of security.
So my point is that it feels based on the way we've talked about proof of work for a long period of time, very, very retrogressive to suddenly go, oh, actually, it turns out that we actually do need proof of work after all, because our shiny new fucking proof of stake is actually Garbo.
That is what I feel like.
And that is maybe an irrational reaction.
But like the whole thing is that proof of work has always been an elegant solution.
It has always been an incredibly, incredibly elegant technical solution to the problem.
It's just that it doesn't actually scale.
Right.
Like nobody's denying that, I think.
But you just, I don't know that this is something that sticks in my corolla about about the kind of the shoe coming off the other foot now about like, oh, actually, there's a bunch of things that we that are much more desirable.
But instead of like, I don't know, it just feels like, and I know, I know this is maybe not like for some chains and a lot of the chains in the cosmos that are looking at this as a solution to also move towards things like mesh security, which is great.
So it's not like people are just abandoning novel solutions and going, oh, we can just relax and use proof of work.
But I don't know, it just feels like super weird.
It's like, I don't know, there's just something about it that feels super weird, just like, why do we need this?
I mean, so my take on it is proof of work has its place, right.
And if we can adopt a current proof of network network and leverage its security in some form or fashion, rather than like spinning up another one, that's ideal.
Right.
Like we don't we don't need thousands of proof of network chains to add more energy and efficiencies.
Now, I don't really understand still the intricacies of Babylon.
It's kind of one of those things where other people are excited about it.
So I'll just be enthusiastic.
But if we're able to leverage multiple different paradigms of security and it works, I think that's a key point at works.
We probably should.
Yeah.
The other thing I guess I don't know.
And as an aside, I probably should have had my mini I'm an idiot rant at some point in the future because I believe we might actually be able to get Matt Bell on the podcast who can tell me what I'm wrong.
But the other thing is like it's a bit strange to see like Babylon coming.
I guess things got delayed, but like the whole point is Babylon bridging BTC into into the cosmos, right?
But that that was also no mix thing, right?
Wait, is Babylon bridging Bitcoin into the cosmos?
I didn't realize it was doing that.
I thought that was the goal.
I mean, I've once again, look, the real smart people are in the comments anyway.
So tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was the whole point of Babylon.
I thought the point of Babylon was to, you know what, I don't know enough to make any sort of claims and I don't want to be spreading false information as if I'm some sort of authority on the matter.
But I don't think I don't think the purpose of Babylon is to bridge in Bitcoin.
It's not bridging is it?
I've reminded myself from the about page what it is about.
It's not quite that is it?
So they are slightly different use cases.
But then God, this is this is back when we get to my idea of shit about Bitcoin problem or at least I don't own any Bitcoin anymore.
And I'm not that interested in it.
But like, it reminds me that I am very, very, very out of date on how it's being expanded out into other networks.
So whatever.
I understand no, because at least like that's just bridging an asset.
I'm like, yeah, bridges.
Yeah, it's very good.
I understand this.
Babylon is all very whatever, man.
Well, in conclusion, sorry, everybody, just ignore the last 10 minutes of my of my of my tired ran here.
Like why the fight to me Babylon turns out the 10 minutes of Hugh Granting.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure they're actually great.
I mean, I'm a there we go in the chat.
Somebody has gone one one line a six sink one liner.
Babylon gives cosmos chains.
It gives cosmos change the ability to timestamp their block on Bitcoin.
There you go.
So I guess we I guess I guess we need that.
I guess I just still don't understand really why that is like what's achieved by reducing unbonding time right like you can change the bottom time to a week.
Are they suggesting that using Babylon will take unbonding down time down to like seven seconds, or however long one block of Bitcoin takes a minute or whatever.
Like, I guess I guess that still doesn't answer to me.
Like, what's achieved by reducing unbonding time.
Deep dive on that.
Yeah, I guess we had this conversation to me previously where we're like, is it is it the case that unbonding time of even one day is enough to deter like,
like at what point because it's got to be like a it's got to be like a nonlinear relationship, hasn't it?
Like the incentive structure of unbonding time is probably about some kind in terms of what what majority of users will do it.
A majority at a given day and then it's just like different days is like the shifts, you know, I mean, like everybody will unbond and then here and then after a while it will be like an actual curve and then after here will be like nobody will bond.
So like it will be like, hey, if you sleep if you sweep a band pass filter through the audio frequency with a high the audio range with a high Q, it will look like that right where we'll go swoosh across their high point whom and that would be the probable incentive structure of no one knows what
you're talking about. I know you're talking about but man you're you're what swoosh boom. Wow. That yeah, people can't understand that.
Here zero hurts. Sorry. Yes, there's in the podcast. I'm really apologize for this. But here zero hurts. Here say 20 k Hertz swoosh. Hi Q. Wow.
That's what I'm talking about. I don't really know. I have no formal math training. So although I know that this will be statistics.
Would it distribution what what distributions what branch of math does that fall into.
Distributions but I'd say public statistics.
I mean like distributions.
I'm a say somebody with math. Wait, don't you have to do math in your job or something. You must have maths. Who are you talking to me.
I was reading this statistics.
I don't even know you're talking about.
So you lost me after a woman's swoosh and I was like a fucking I need to go back to Babylon. In my mind having a longer unbonding period of like two weeks is a feature.
I'm not just changing our body to one day. Why why does the security of Bitcoin allow for that as opposed to you know some networks have as most as 14 days for example.
Right.
And I don't see an inherent reason why we couldn't just reduce it down to seven days as well.
I'm sure if I went back and read the tendermint documentation or get some darn answers or not.
But like yeah I mean why can't unbonding on unbonding time be one hour 30 seconds.
It's a feature like you want there to be some sort of unbonding time so you have some sort of skin in the game right.
That was my assumption.
So what long range attacks.
You just need to get on and explain this to us like what are you doing.
Garnsey is here by the way Garnsey's steak seat I'm pretty sure.
And Garnsey you or you should hop in and jump in and say something.
I don't think I've ever seen Garnsey or heard him.
I'm not sure if he's like doxified.
They've been in the chat before.
I guess what's a long range attack.
This is I mean we probably I think what we've concluded here is that the game of the goal of Babylon is something very very very different from what we think it is and that by so again to those in the pod.
We make the joke a lot about this being the group chat this is just the call that we have every week and we podcast it out of a combination of masochism and self importance.
The two of us fighting.
You are watching three validators fly on controllably.
You are literally watching three people in real time try and suss out what the fuck Babylon is about and somewhat failing.
So yeah there's definitely more action like in the in the chat here.
So in the chat and Davis so Ben Ben Rama gas gas me and others have been basically as me forming us what the hell is actually up with this stuff and Ben has suggested that the chat take over the podcast and I can only conclude that would lead to more informative content at this point.
We just need when when start going to be back from getting the cigarette suss the other question I don't think that's coming back is not coming back.
No, it's feeling particularly abandoned at this point.
I mean he would know he would he would know.
But I mean to be fair none of us validate at Babylon right.
I mean I threw my hat in the ring and then I just like didn't get a call back you know what I mean.
Yeah me too.
So partial match.
He gets it I'm telling everyone the validators don't know what long range attacks are spot on people keep saying it's a long range attack.
I don't know what that means.
Explain yourself man.
Oh that's just the that's just the tech I've looked at it's just the technical term for the so you know the 51% attack on proof of work is the equivalent where you create a fake version of the chain but for proof of stake.
For all the listeners who are like you know frustrated with our failing.
Gazzany says David see the founder gave a recent talk on a 16 Z YouTube channel.
It's got everything you need to know.
So you know there's a resource with people that know what they're talking about.
Oh, did you do this already.
I can do this.
I'll send Rama the invite.
He's not my friend on discord so I can't send him one.
He's probably rock watched it.
We are guys we sent.
We sent Rama a gift from the from the gone group chat.
By the way, I'll tell you what it is because he does invite.
I sent him an invite just now but no we IRL sent him some mail.
What greater gift is there than an invite to the weirdest podcast that's currently in the crypto verse.
We just need to door in the room.
At this point can we really call it a crypto podcast.
I don't feel like we've talked actually about crypto that much in the last at least six months.
Oh, error.
I mean, we could talk more about crypto.
So this possibility.
Do the listeners really want to hear about crypto?
I mean, probably.
Hey, we talked about when I kind of went undercover to that to that conference and it was all academics talk about stuff.
There was a lot of interest in theoretical crypto stuff then.
So the fun thing about theoretical crypto is from my experience and what I've read, there seems to be a very big dearth of like understanding between theoretical crypto and what's actually happening in the crypto verse.
That's my take.
Yeah, that was sort of there was there were basically two different things going on as far as I can tell there was a group of people who were like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if this happened?
It's like, yeah, that's already been built.
I already exist.
And then there was like, hey, we're just going to present our paper and then go.
But we're we actually like launched a bunch of stuff.
And it's all very, it's very big brain like defy stuff.
And we thought it was pretty clever. So we got a research paper out of it.
Hi, oh, and anyway, catch you later.
We're out.
And it was like, okay, those are the guys, those are the guys you want to talk to these other people.
Less so.
And then as we've established with this Babylon thing, I'm not the guy to do that talking to anybody because I'm a very slow learner and theoretical grasp on things take some time and energy.
And I have to actually kind of care quite a bit about something to get my head around that is the other problem.
It's a little bit like so.
It's too close.
It's too close to both, isn't it?
Caring so tedious.
What it is, you know, hey, you know, you serve a different way after have to go to have those cigarettes.
Dad came back to you.
Yeah, cigarettes age you. I did forget the milk. Sorry about that. But here we are.
I got some milk for you in the fridge.
You're only down the road.
I'm so glad you are.
You're looking well.
I'm tired.
You look tired.
Three year old.
Yeah, I have a three year old in the lounge room currently eating cereal and late for daycare.
So here we are.
All good.
Wait a minute.
Don't you have a new bean as well? Or you got one on the way?
No. Yeah. New new boy.
So we can a couple of days old as well.
He's sleeping with mom.
Delivered.
Yeah.
Shift.
Bring us version 2.0 shipped the stock airdrop.
Stalk drop.
Is that what you call it the other day?
Stalk drop.
Something like that.
One of one.
Stalk drop.
I don't know how much time I have, but essentially, yeah, Frey, you got it right.
So Babylon chain, it's going to bring in Bitcoin blocks.
And the intention is that every Cosmos chain that implements Babylon will have a Bitcoin
block ID signed in that block number to prevent long range attacks.
So intention is to be able to reduce block times to hours in the short term.
I think Osmosis is going for five or seven hours.
That's the plan for the first release.
And that'll be verified by, you know, whenever you go back through time, there'll be Bitcoin
blocks.
So you can't really fake another version of the chain and kind of fork it and take over.
So that's, that's like the premise of Babylon.
I think there's a number of chains looking at it.
Osmosis is kind of leading the charge.
Evmos, Juno, I think Huwa also is looking to do it.
Chihuahua, I don't know how you guys pronounce it.
I like the idea.
Huahua.
Chihuahua.
The only other thing that I think a lot of people are kind of skipping over with regards
to Babylon is the actual IBC client timeouts.
Or the threshold, which is like the timeout between the two chains.
So it needs to be like two thirds bonding period, I think.
Yeah.
Two thirds bonding period.
And you can't actually reduce that currently with the current version of IBC.
It's an actual IBC limit.
Spoken to kind of Jack and I briefly spoken to Jack about it.
And they're not actually sure how people are going to implement lower bonding periods with
that.
Either a fork of the IBC code or the IBC team will need to implement something or Babylon.
I do actually remember that conversation, despite the sleep deprivation.
So that makes sense.
But the point is that like back to the long range attack stuff.
I don't really see why, I don't see how with the mechanisms that tend to have mint has in
place.
Now I understand what the long range attack thing means.
It's essentially the forgery of the chain, right?
It's the term for that.
So tend to have a number of different mechanisms in place to stop this, right?
A known set of Genesis validates, for example, Gen TX.
So if you're submitted a Gen TX, that's a way of knowing who actually has the authority
to create the first block.
So my question would be like, I don't, I feel like possibly I've missed something very fundamental
here.
I can see there's a number of different problems that can arise in terms of economic security,
in terms of like bank runs and capital flight liquidity, all that sort of stuff to do with
really, really low bonding periods.
You know, we're talking like maybe less than a day, something like that.
Like it's going to introduce a lot of volatility into the asset.
But I feel like I've missed the memo on where the long range attack vector is there.
Because fundamentally, you still can't bootstrap a chain from nothing.
And then in addition, you have a bunch of other things, you know, block to block, which actually
guarantee some continuity of the validator set.
And like you say, there's things like IBC timeouts, there's a number of different stateful mechanisms
built into the chain that actually do preserve continuity.
So is this simply that the idea is that when the number gets small enough, you could have
the entire VALSET hypothetically switch out between two blocks?
Yeah, like 60%.
Yeah, exactly.
And in between that period is like, let's say we have a block and then all of a sudden
66% of the VALSET says, no, this is now the new version.
And by the way, we now have 99% of the total chain supply continuing on from there.
Babylon would say, well, actually, the Bitcoin numbers don't reference that.
You're a fraud validator set.
Away we go.
Okay, so then we've literally, we've solved a hard problem by pushing the role of distributed
consensus onto a Bitcoin block.
Essentially, that's kind of what I understand it.
Which like, I may have understood that wrong.
There might be some stuff there, but as somebody who's like, interested in this stuff because
they came out of distributed systems, that definitely feels like a retrogression step.
Like, I mean, Bitcoin is the proof of chain viability for like a Bitcoin block, right?
Versus the VALSET and consensus.
I want blockchains to get as fast as Apache Kafka.
I want to be able to put three petabytes of data through a second in a 99,000 core cluster.
That's how you get quick.
That's how you have for fun times.
I'm not sure it's whatever, man.
If I was smart enough to do that, I would be working with it.
And we can only go so fast, right?
Because Bitcoin blocks are only so fast, right?
So in future versions, and I've talked about this briefly and feel free to tell me to shut up and we'll move on.
You know, tandem in and in Cosmos isn't going to be all comet BFT isn't going to be the consensus mechanism for every cosmos chain going forward, right?
We're already seeing new consensus mechanisms come out.
They're faster, they're more efficient.
They're not being used readily at the moment, but they will be if comet doesn't kind of pick up its game.
IBC is going to be the thing that bridges everything and what's underlying that doesn't necessarily matter.
So for me, you know, I don't really look or care too much about the underlying consensus mechanism I care about.
IBC and how it integrates and what can be faster.
And briefly, evolutions was dropped today, you know, tune of evolutions.
It's referenced in there, like, you know, already moving out modules of the core SDK with regards to governance, moving towards things like, you know, CW SDK and the like, because they just move too slowly, like comet BFT and tandem.
They're very good, but they're very slow.
So the future is probably not going to be those unless they kind of improve the rate in which they ship.
And, you know, what we know now won't be the same in, you know, three years time.
I don't think.
Well, so just like theoretically, the, the, a lot of the consensus mechanisms engines that have come out since were very heavily inspired by the work that was done on Tenderman.
But, you know, Tenderman is now what's 2016, I think.
So, you know, if you think about like, you know, all the things that are now all the hot stuff and all that stuff, stuff that's been done since I was reading some stuff that I didn't fully understand about a different suggested way of getting.
So a bit of a callback.
We had the, what was it, Big Balls, Brick coin episode a little while ago where we were talking about the, the consultation on the digital pound where they say like 30,000 transaction per second or get the fuck out like that's the baseline performance.
I've been reading some of the stuff on like the, the technology suggestions for like, it's probably not going to be DLT.
But some of the technology suggestions for like, okay, hypothetically, if it was going to be DLT, how would we like just blank piece of paper?
How do we do it?
Know what we know about current consensus mechanisms, knowing what we know about distributed systems.
And that stuff is very above my pay grade.
But it is interesting and it is absolutely not how Tenderman or many of the current consensus mechanisms work.
Like people are looking at super fast stuff, they are, they are thinking of very, very novel ways of doing stuff.
And like you say, Rama, that's the thing you kind of look into and going, well, yeah, probably going to be on top of something else.
But again, that's definitely the mood of the room of the podcast, I guess, and it has been for a while.
So, hey, I think he's gone.
I think he's caught.
Maybe, I think maybe a small, a small human is like killed his feng shui.
No, I was making sure that she's eating her breakfast.
Yeah, we can hear in the background now.
It's it like, it's so funny because like obviously Nala Rama on the same console.
We have a guest.
I'm going to say hello to everyone.
Wave.
Hello.
Hello, mate.
Are you eating your breakfast?
I have a, I have a hard one.
Makes noises and.
I feel like you have a great ears.
No, she can't.
They want to know about crypto.
Do you know about crypto?
No.
No, not interested.
Just cares about fly trucks and blades.
So you know about Bitcoin.
Can you get your daughter to explain Babylon to us, please?
Yeah, she does do a lot of babbling.
So she probably could do a pretty good job.
It's funny.
You guys are on the same.
It doesn't look like it.
It looks like there's very different things going on.
Well, single bachelor life versus, you know, dad life.
I guess it's also like.
It's all artificial lighting for now in the basement as well.
Yeah.
I really bright lights like, you know, behind that curtain that's
hung on the wall.
It's just like an LED strip.
Yeah.
The periodic your parents pounding on the floor.
No, are they doing down there?
Are you talking to your friends again?
Are you talking to those?
Don't show anyone your dick networks.
I actually got the ceiling.
All right.
I do have to drop.
I sort this kid out.
Get ready for daycare or go drop back down to.
Viewer.
Thanks.
Thanks for jumping in.
I really appreciate that.
That makes way more sense now.
See you around.
Okay.
So in conclusion, it turns out we kind of did figure out what it
was kind of, but we did need ramen set straight.
So there you go.
Also now I'm curious though.
So he said that other chains can implement Babylon.
Does that mean that does that mean there's going to be like
cosmos change, sending a transaction into Bitcoin and like
time stamping ourselves?
So let's say 10 chains implement Babylon.
Did I mean for every Bitcoin block, there's going to be 10
transactions from a cosmos change.
Then they'll have to keep feeding Bitcoin.
Like what?
Yeah, I guess so.
That just seems hilarious to me.
Look, look, look, short see the circle state continues.
That is, that's the one.
The only thing better than a Ponzi is an even bigger Ponzi.
No, Babylon does that for us.
So we don't need to create our own transaction.
Babylon will have Babylon.
Does it need to create a transaction on, on Bitcoin?
So if it creates one transaction, that'll be sufficient for all
networks.
Is that, is that how that works?
This is the most of the strangest episodes we really,
really cannot do without you, sir.
But presumably it's all like in the same encrypted message.
Yeah.
It must just, it must just take a little bit more than hash it.
Yeah.
I think by 64 or something.
Okay.
That makes sense.
I mean, that's cool.
I was just going to say, like, if all the change start like pumping
transactions into Bitcoin, like,
like all the blocks are just.
Yeah, exactly.
Drivel.
Yeah.
Well, and then it'll be create a weird economic incentive where like,
only the big chains can afford to use Bitcoin for their security
but because they're a big chain, they kind of don't need that security.
Like there'd be some sort of weird interaction happening there.
I mean, even if, even if Babylon just included one transaction per
block on Bitcoin, it's probably like, you know, 20% of the transactions
on Bitcoin.
Really, we should use Monero.
Do all the time stepping with Monero rather than Bitcoin.
That's, that's my take.
Or just something cheaper than Bitcoin.
Cause presumably this is costing money, right?
I mean, isn't Monero a privacy chain?
Yeah.
I mean, that's part of the joke.
But yeah.
All right.
Gotcha.
Roger.
Gotcha there.
Just went straight over my head.
I mean, I'll throw in for like, Bitcoin.
I mean, does it matter?
Well, I guess there's proof of work.
Isn't it the point is it's called the proof of work.
But then.
Yeah.
Because hang on a minute, right?
Okay.
I've just, I've just done some more, I've done some more thinking here.
Right.
If the fact that, so, right.
From that, I think we've established, I think as my understanding is then
that the, the long range attack part comes in, that your, your
unbonding period is, is quick enough that you could have significant
moves in the Valsa enough to actually knock out consensus, right?
At which point aren't you going to end up having the same, well,
you're not going to have quite the same problem as flash loans where you
have literally everything occurring in the same block, right?
Which is people can attack you with really novel and quite weird
strats because they all do happen in the same block.
But if you have an unbonding period suit that's super, super short,
forget the, forget like the breakdown of actual consensus of chain level
and chainhole.
Presumably there's some pretty sophisticated like fuckeroo you can do
in terms of just like messing with the actual, like, like the actual
chains, liquidity and stability, right?
Because, yeah, what, what, what is to, well, I guess the problem is that
like, right, so the things that obviously you're staking is, is,
is governed by external percentage anyway.
So other than the fact that the amount is changing perhaps more quickly.
So the rate is less stable.
I guess there's probably no deliberate attack surface there, is there?
I mean, but what about not to go back to Prop 16, but I had Prop 16.
All roads lead to Munich.
Exactly.
Well, so a lot of people were shit on by people in Prop 16.
I think the only reason why they weren't re-delegated from, and there was
a lot of re-delegation is because of that unbonding period.
And suddenly unbonding is like one hour and Twitter turns against a validator
and they just like lose all their like personal delegations in one run.
That I don't know, sounds kind of scary.
I argue that the drift of delegations wouldn't be that big.
Like mainly because I feel like over the longer term, the delegators actually
get lost.
Like you just, a lot of people just delegate and then you never see them again,
which is a big advantage for long-term validators in terms of like gathering steak.
But at least you won't lose all of the delegations.
So an interesting, an interesting other thing is that like in other networks,
I think there's the model where, and this, so my understanding of how this is implemented,
I need to look at the code more closely, but I've spent part of the week getting a better understanding
of how we're trying, attempting to get a better understanding of how the staking works in Aptos.
And essentially the majority of, like the entire thing is just a smart contract.
The difference is it has entry points where governance can change things, right?
So there's a series of things that could only really be basically enacted by the governance module,
giving itself the permissions as an executor, like with key matter, as if it were an executor to do things like
changing the inflation rate or something like that, right?
So the model there is that validators are very, very fungible.
Like they can be like, you can see the long-term ambition is that validators, there should be a lot of them
and they should be fungible because the operator doesn't necessarily, the operator of the validator doesn't necessarily vote,
and the voter entity is like completely separate, and then the owner is also a completely different person.
It's not, there's also a model for distributed staking or so delegate-proofed state, but it's quite, again, quite different.
But the key thing is that the floor is so high, like it's not like one atom to spin up a validator.
And that's the thing that stops the redelegation is that, well, that's the thing that in a hypothetical future world,
stops the redelegation, stops the validator becoming totally fungible, is just the floor, which is a very blunt mechanism.
But it's interesting to go like, actually, well, if the floor on Juno was just rather than being or atom cosmos,
or atom osmosis, whoever, instead of being one, it was like 100,000, 200,000, whatever a minimum floor was,
where you're like, even in the bear market, this is profitable.
This is profitable. It has to be profitable.
Your TVL on the chain staked, like locked, just has to be higher because the validators have to do it.
You have to design your tokenomics in such a way that you actually can ensure,
or you think you can ensure, at the time of design the tokenomics, that it's likely people will be able to actually make enough money
based on the percentage that will be locked and then the percentage of emissions.
And that ahead of time, it's a bit of a hit and hope, but that's an interesting thought.
What is that number? How would that work?
The more I understand how those smart contracts work, the more I think, well, I don't think it's a different thing.
I don't think it's better or worse. I just think, okay, that's really interesting.
I can't believe I haven't understood that before now.
Well, and there are some cosmos chains that have minimums.
Kudos, they're minimum, I think they're minimum is like 2 million tokens in order to become a validator there.
So that is being seen around and more so than just like, oh, it happens to be that floor of 100 validators has capped out.
There are chains that have that.
Yeah, is this whether or not you can actually work that into the tokenomics, I guess, in a kind of longer term way?
Or have it as a feature, not a bug or something?