Anyway, the point is you'd expect them to be from like Iran or or California, but I can't
immediately tell where they're from these pistachios. So, you know, fucking
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams.
Hello and welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator
teams. And it's only been a week. We took a week off one week off in a year and I'd forgotten
that that's how the show starts. So, welcome Dan from Defiant Labs as well. We're coming back hard.
Not only we're coming back all quarat last week. Yeah, regulars of the show will know.
Just had a baby. I was the only one that was ready to do the show last week.
I'm throwing everybody else under the bus. That's true.
Nobody else has the excuse. I was here. I was ready. I was all that had to cancel. Although,
to be fair, Shortsy was trying to tell me that he couldn't make it and my phone was like not with me.
And so Shortsy was just a paddock that I didn't know. It was just like, dude, dude, dude. And I
was just like, oh, right. Yeah. I mean, I assumed you guys had already rugged me, but hey, happy days.
So anyway, we got Dan from Defiant and I guess we've got like what two weeks of cosmos drama
to catch up on. So that's like what, 20 years in normal time, something like that, two weeks.
And yeah. So what I mean, I obviously haven't been doing anything other than really changing
nappies. So I literally, I nearly missed an upgrade on like a home chain because I was like,
when is that upgrade supposed to be? Like, I feel like somebody told me there was an upgrade or
well, I helped prepare an upgrade or something. It turned out it was like already happened,
but I'd already done the work for it. So it's automation, baby. We're all big fans of automation
here. And this is why. And for those of you that don't have kids yet, but run validators,
get your automation game sorted. Do you figure out a way to automate those poopy diapers?
No, but so the Weeban is actually wearing a piece of future Game of Nodes merch at the moment.
Which, uh, oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I, if I could go and get them and kind of,
what you said, you said me it's an NFT. Did you say it was one of one?
It is one of one.
Everybody knows, no, there's nothing unique in the world except for NFTs that live forever on
the blockchain. Okay. So don't give me that. I refuse to believe it. I think that's a fact.
True. Yeah. Nothing truly, nothing is truly as artisanal as an NFT. But yeah, I don't know.
I, I got to say, I got to say, so, uh, what the item in question is a Game of Nodes baby grow.
It's very, very cool. You serve the man with the plan, uh, responsible for that one.
Is it too good for the DJs or should we actually do Game of Nodes merch? Because I,
I fucking love it. I think it's brilliant. I think it's brilliant. I'm the only one that
gets the joke, but it's, that's fine. I think the problem with doing like Game of Nodes merch is just
like, you know, the fear that no one will buy it and then we just look like noobs.
Yeah. Like, so, but we, but we got over that when we realized that no one's going to watch
a show either. So does it really, does it, does it honestly really matter?
Yeah. So the six people that watch the show,
share the same amount for the next conference, I will totally rock some Game of Nodes.
There you go. All right. We got one.
Yeah. But this is the worst talk about like, does anybody wear merch? And like,
we were literally talking what yesterday or the day before about
We're in Cosmos merch right now.
Look at that. Yeah.
Well, we didn't we see somebody like, there was somebody like a friend of a friend or like a,
a one remove connection saw somebody in artifacts merch at a completely unrelated conference.
Yeah. Yeah. So they just, they just post that because they do a really good job with merch.
Like artifact doesn't, that's a cool brand and they have great artifact has the killer merch.
They do. They do a really good job. And then, and then, and then they give, I don't give his,
I'm like a doxon, but they give a lot of stuff away, like shirts and other types of things.
And then he just put in a, on a chat that somebody that some random suey, was it a suey event or
something similar to that? I don't think it was a missed an event. Yeah.
A missed an event. Like somebody's walking around with an artifact shirt and somebody else saw it
like, Oh my God, you guys are everywhere. You never know where that stuff's going to show up.
I thought my favorite.
My favorite was a luna loot. Remember them? Like how much like stuff that they had.
You get like, that's right.
You get like tennis shoes, like with different like protocol logos on there. They had everything.
Those looked really cool though. I'll be honest. I wanted one.
Yeah. Yeah. Hold up. Hold up. So okay. The Milady merch is probably the best merch.
Did I tell you guys about this?
That's where you, well, in the context, I think it was at a rave at 2am and you were probably
spiked with something. So your judgment might have been a little bit off.
It was a Milady rave. I found out later. It was actually a Milady NFT rave and they had,
they had rave merch and it was like free. It was like, you know, because it's the
free merch for the, for the crypto stuff. They were handing out joints, Milady joints.
So of course it's legal, isn't it? I just sometimes I can't keep up with America, man.
There's 50 different rules around what's legal.
50 different Americas out there. 50, 51 different Americas.
All right. Something like that.
Something like that.
That's right. They gave, yeah, they had Milady joints at the thing. That's a good merch.
That's actually quite cool.
And they are very strong. Yeah, I had to make use of my stopwatch.
It was like a whole situation where I had to set the timer, make sure I was like,
found out where I lived and was in a taxi before I got to 10 minutes.
Otherwise there was no telling what might happen.
The timer is going.
We have, I'm in Maryland on the East Coast and in two months,
it's going to be legalized here, recreational use.
And we just had our first cannabis like workspace like opening up like a few miles from me,
where it's like, you can just go in there, you can work and chill,
but it's like right next to dispensary.
That's wild. I don't know if I would want that.
Like you're working, working, working and everyone's like,
just chill.
Who has chill onions?
Yep.
Dude, if you're a snack vendor in that workspace, you're going to make bank.
Yeah, right. I think just after legalization, I was in California and I got given what I
thought was a pack of matches with like a dispensary name on it.
And I was like, funny souvenir.
I just left it in my wallet.
This is how frequently I clean out my wallet, literally years.
And then years later, I was like actually clean out my wallet.
I was like, just throwing stuff out.
I was like, oh, that's that fucking, okay.
And then I kind of just like sort of got rid of it and all these seeds spilled out.
And I was like, oh, it wasn't matches.
And I realized that like that had been in my wallet.
I had been to, I had backpacked across China.
I had been to all these places where that shit is very illegal.
And it just, for whatever, I guess they're just dried seeds, right?
So no sniffing dogs were ever noticed, but they just been in my wallet for like
four years or something.
I was like, holy shit.
Okay.
Notes, many state lines.
Yeah.
It's fucking check the freebies you're given in future.
So you know, no, before you leave, before you leave America,
just check you haven't got any of those, uh, Milady,
I nearly said Milady NFTs, Milady joints in your pockets.
The NFTs are also illegal in a bunch of territories.
So you want to be careful.
They're just so, the NFTs are too shit.
Yeah.
I've been, I've been like trying to figure out what I can and can't take home.
Like when we're at the jerky store today, I'm like,
I wonder how much of this I can get away with like in my bag.
It's processed, right?
You can take that stuff home.
Yeah, I feel like it's not a threat to the economy or anything.
Yeah, I think you're good.
You can't, you can't say like, there's like,
are those things like tea that sometimes you can't, like again, one of my,
as it turned out, accidental smuggling things was I brought back loads of tea from China.
And then it's just on my desk at work.
Like I still have loads of this.
It's really good, really good tea.
Somebody was like, do you just bring that back in your backpack?
I was like, yeah, what's the big deal?
And they were like, it's an agricultural product,
like that might have bugs and stuff on it.
I was like, ah, it's been in a seal container for years.
Only bugs are dead.
And they're like, still definitely illegal.
I was like, ah, but a bit of, but a bit of, you know, just
now I want to hear about your America.
It's like smuggling smuggling.
How is my America adventure going?
It's very ad hoc.
I was just actually talking to a Shilty today about how incredibly tiring it's been
when you just like run around the place unplanned.
It's both tiring and expensive.
So, yeah, I mean, it's been good, but like I said, unplanned.
So I have been to Denver, Breckenridge, which I don't recommend to anyone
because it is so fucking high in the air.
So yeah, we were all dying while we were there.
It was sad.
Yeah, it's people like walking around with cans of air huffing air and shit.
Literally, it was wild.
Literally.
Is it challenging to like maintain your validators at all while you're on the road?
Like, do you need physical access to any of them ever?
No, not physical access.
It hasn't been a problem managing nodes.
You know, automation.
But it makes you want access. It is like definitely organization is like a lot more
difficult when you're on the road.
So you rely a lot more on your phone.
And you know, when you're on your phone and not in your office, you read things and sometimes
you forget where you're at if you don't make a note of it straight away.
So obviously, when you're going through like discord and looking at all the upcoming upgrades
and different things that you need to be involved in, you can like make notes on your
computer and make a to-do list and, you know, action that type of stuff.
But it's a little bit more difficult to manage that workflow on your phone.
So whilst we haven't missed anything, it's just like being a little bit of a pain.
I think I did an upgrade on the street the other day.
I just like whipped out my laptop and kneeled down, like took a knee, chucked my laptop on
top of my bag and just like quickly did an upgrade on something.
So, you know, it's a little bit different like that.
Did you stop everyone in the New York City sidewalks like people, people?
Oh, they just like peel right out.
Doing an important Showawa update here.
Get the fuck out of the way.
Fuck out of my way.
So many shitcoins lying in the balance here.
Yeah, I mean, so.
I've seen quite a few good ones of those.
Like I think it was Highlander, like early doors, Juno, I think.
I feel those was quite a while ago, but knowing fucking Cosmos, it was probably five minutes
ago and I'm just getting older at a rapid pace.
I think he was like camping for a weekend and there was just, yeah, it was just like him in
like a woodland clearing with like a phone propped up on a tree.
I did the same thing for the, this is awful.
I was at a camp with my boys and I brought a laptop because I knew something was coming
and I was up at 2 a.m.
Troubleshooting via like a 3G connection.
You can only get a shell connection to start Cerberus.
Looking back, maybe not my wisest time.
I'd say maybe not the best use of my time.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I think a lot of people I know have done one on a plane when playing Wi-Fi.
That seems quite common.
I've done one on the channel tunnel.
So under the ocean.
That's so cool.
Like a bomb.
Yeah, the Wi-Fi fucking works now.
Dude, the plane Wi-Fi, I guess it's for relays.
We just, I just used it coming back from Denver.
Like that thing, I forget what, I mean, it really wasn't on, but like it was hauling ass.
Like it was no problem.
I will tell you the Wi-Fi on Amtrak blows.
Is there Wi-Fi?
I thought you had to use your phone or something.
Yeah, so a lot of time you have to use your phone, but there's some Amtrak trains that have
Wi-Fi and it sucks.
Yeah, it can't be.
It can't be pretty.
Fuck you, Amtrak.
They're not.
This is what business, this is what business broadband or whatever is for.
You just get something with good roaming and you just have to get fucked every day.
By your provider.
I need the thing that like Shilty has, the little box that you just take around with you.
The Wi-Fi, it's glorious, glorious.
Highly recommend it.
Yeah, I wish there was a worldwide thing and just like slap that thing in your bag and
tear around everywhere.
That'd be great.
What is that, Shilty?
Is that like different from like a Wi-Fi hotspot you activate on your phone?
So it uses T-Mobile's bands, so the Sprint and T-Mobile bands, and you just get 5G everywhere
you go.
Well, everywhere you've got T-Mobile.
I assume you could go to like Mexico with it because T-Mobile has a deal with Mexico where
you just have full coverage.
But I doubt it.
You pay like a yearly subscription and it's just unlimited for the year 5G.
Yep.
Yep, it's great.
That's what I lived off of.
And it creates a Wi-Fi point for you.
Is that how it works and you connect to it?
And it's fast, it's bloody fast.
It's actually faster than my home internet.
Nice.
So how is that different to just an access point that's a SIM card?
It's basically the same thing.
It actually uses a SIM card.
It's just really the big benefit is that it's unlimited, one, and that you pay once a year
and you get unlimited for the entire year.
So it's $500 for the year of unlimited internet, which is great.
You get unlimited 5G for the whole year for $500?
For $500, yeah.
And that includes the hardware.
And that's ultra wide, right?
Like that's 5G, you get the...
Yep.
Yeah.
Shieldsy, if I had any sense at all, I would have asked to borrow that from you.
Yeah.
You know, that would have been smart.
I even brought it with me to Denver.
Since you're...
Yeah, exactly.
You could have brought it back to him, right?
Yeah.
Meanwhile, I've been like struggling to stay connected for the last like three weeks.
You could just get a business mobile and have like two SIMs and have the second SIM
be an unlimited SIM with 5G.
You can shut the fuck up.
I think we should...
Let's give you a thousand solutions on how you fucked up the last three weeks.
Yeah.
Because actually it's like, I think we have nine terabytes a month
for about $22.
Yeah.
It's a little bit more difficult for a foreigner to like get a good data plan.
So I have to rely on apps like AirAllow and use eSims, but like 10 gigs is like 26 bucks,
something.
So I used two of those packs.
I mean, you can expense the fuck out of it.
So like...
Expense it to who?
Myself, your peanut.
I wouldn't know, but what I mean is like, if you're like, oh, I'm going to be in a place
for a month and just like put my name is Mr. Big Bull's blockchain,
I live at 123 Denver Street in Denver, Colorado, and then get a fucking contract.
Like they don't ever check that address, do they?
Doxed.
I feel like that would work.
Did you use Todd's address?
He'll appreciate it.
Exactly.
That's how...
I already send my shit to Todd's house, so it might as well like...
Yeah, I love it.
But to answer your question, Dan, my travels have been interesting.
Really loved New Orleans.
That place was awesome.
Just around the French Quarter, the rest of the place is crap.
Sorry, people.
And yeah, Atlanta.
Sorry if you live in Atlanta, that place blows.
And where else did I go?
New York is pretty cool.
NDC, right?
You stopped in D.C.?
Yeah, D.C. I should not have gone to Atlanta and just spent like three days in D.C.
D.C. you could spend weeks and just...
I mean, it depends on how much American history you care about and whatever,
but there's so much shit in D.C. it's amazing.
I found it all very interesting.
I've been averaging like probably 15 to 20 Ks a day walking.
Steps?
Okay.
Yeah.
In these cities, so in some like a lot of that is carrying my bag around as well.
I mean, I haven't been drinking beer as much because like I'd be bankrupt by now
if I was drinking my regular amount of beer.
Yeah.
So going to a pub and drinking beer in America with our exchange rate is just not very good.
And then they want fucking tips every beer and you're like, but I just had one beer.
Yeah.
So like...
Yeah.
What the fuck, man?
I'll tell you what, like the to buy a beer at a pub is if you were to put the menus side by side,
the Australian menus and the American menus, like the numbers would be the same, right?
But then like you add on the 50% and then another 20% for a tip and it's getting expensive.
Like I'm looking at $17 in my money for a beer, whereas in Australia it'd be like 10 bucks.
So...
I feel like the cost of a beer sometimes, especially in a city in America,
is approaching like a cocktail and a cocktail bar in like the financial bit of London.
You know what I mean?
It's approaching a meal.
Like the cost of a beer is approaching a meal.
Maybe not quite a meal, but like it's a hot dog curt meal.
Yeah.
I got hot dogs in New York, two hot dogs, two dollars each for the hot dog.
Bam.
And it was like five bucks.
Did you get those Nathan's from Coney Island or whatever?
No, there was a five-star rated hot dog stand in New York right next to Central Park.
The dude was awesome.
He's like this great guy.
Yeah.
And yeah, I mean, he's got 500 reviews, five-star reviews.
Like I'm going to do it.
Well, what point is that like more of a meme than an actual...
Like are they self-perpetuating past a point?
People are like, yeah, it's definitely five stars.
Well, I don't know, the guy was awesome, the hot dogs were good.
Would you give him five stars?
Seems like great value.
Boom, 501.
There you go.
Two bucks for a fucking hot dog?
Jesus.
So DC, New York, and then you move down, right?
Now I'm in Portland now, yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm at Schultz's house now in his basement.
And then you're going south to LA, right?
So you have a plan.
What's your plan to get out of there?
Yeah, I don't have a plan.
Oh, perfect.
Lovely.
Yeah, he's just going to move in basically.
That sounds like...
You might as well.
Much the same as like the last...
From parent basement to parent basement.
I have no fucking plan.
The life of a cosmos valedict to go after the world.
I tell you what though, my accommodation at New York fucking sucked.
And I've realized that there's like this bullshit thing that they do in America
where the hotels will have a headline base price on the things.
And then when you book...
That was it.
Yep, see ya.
Fine.
Who kicked him out?
I didn't kick him out.
Obviously can't be the internet.
Clearly cannot be the internet.
They're like, oh, he's going to tell everybody how the rate system actually works.
Let's get rid of him.
Cut him off.
Traveling, Jensy.
So anyway, like I was saying, so they add on this resort for you, right?
So I stayed at the Paramount Hotel on 46th.
Don't stay at this piece of shit.
The room was just like a shitty double bed.
The bathroom, like you couldn't turn around and it was so fucking small.
There was about three square feet of area around the bed.
Dude, you're a Manhattan.
What do you want?
And there was fucking construction started at 7 a.m. every morning, right?
That's all New York.
They were hammering rocks across the road.
And like literally, I had the rock hammers start at 7 a.m. on the dock.
But like once you take the fee, the tax and the...
And this fucking stupid resort fee that they hide in there,
then I could have got like a decent room just around the corner at another hotel.
So it's just, it's scammy.
And the way they market it, I asked them if I could cancel.
I said, you're scamming people.
They said no.
So I had to stay in a hotel where I told them no scammers.
It was great.
So they were also spitting in your coffee after that point?
Yeah, probably.
I'll probably shit in my pillows.
And then when I left, this annoyed me the most.
When I left, so I haven't had any cash the whole time I've been in the U.S.,
right? I've just tapped for everything, not had any cash at all.
And then when I, and I'll tell you a funny story about that.
And when I left this hotel, I wanted to like store my bag, right?
So I could go and cruise around for a couple of hours before I had to go to the airport.
And it was two bucks to store it with this, with the hotel.
So usually it's free at a hotel, right?
It should be.
You stayed at it.
It's like, you know, it's free.
They've chuck a tag and it's sticking in the bag room.
Two bucks, okay.
It's practically free anyway, except it was fucking cash only,
or Venmo.
And you can't get Venmo unless you're a fucking U.S. resident.
I didn't have any cash.
It would have cost me like $5 F-Boss fee just to get fucking cash out for the two.
I said, you know what?
Fuck you.
And I went and paid someone else eight bucks.
And then later that day, I ended up getting cash out anyway,
so I could get a sweet hot dog.
What, the guy didn't take, he didn't take credit cards?
No, mate, just Gish.
Gish.
Just Gish.
Yeah, but I was willing to go get the Gish for a two dollar hot dog.
So, but that was a fucking place.
More hot dog from Nico Bellic from Grand Theft Auto 4.
That's a weird reference dude.
Our thing is going to Gish.
Yeah.
It's going to Gish.
Gish.
This is my cousin.
All right.
Hello, cousin.
I really just, we actually have some, not only do we have some viewers,
we presumably have some viewers who are keen to hear from Dan as well.
But yeah, shout out to people who stuck with us for taking one week off.
Can you please?
Did we take two weeks?
We took two weeks off, right?
Did we take two weeks off?
Well, we did.
No, no, we only did in a stream for one week.
No, but we skipped a Denver week.
Yeah.
We meant to do it and then we got too drunk and then you were at this Malady party
for 24 hours and then we came home.
Oh yeah, you guys rocked me that week as well, didn't you?
That's correct.
Yeah.
So, have we skipped two weeks?
We've skipped not in a row.
We skipped one.
Not in a row.
We had one.
It wasn't a row.
We skipped one.
No, we had one in between there, didn't we?
Yeah.
So, have I only missed one episode?
No, you've missed like seven episodes.
Oh, that's right, because you rugged us in the middle of one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's when you hit, that's when you joined from Denver and you hit the end button.
And then rugged us.
That was last week, right?
Yeah, I forgot about that.
That's right.
Too funny.
Yeah, funny.
You did your last stream was 13 days ago.
The energy from the chat is that people are not happy with our lack of either punctuality.
Well, I mean, that's every week.
So, but also, you know, not doing a week commitment lacking.
That's a good question.
I mean, what do you want?
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think literally all of our rewards for a week wouldn't pay for the time.
Exactly.
That's right.
Yeah.
So there's, there's a, yeah, we have an Australian in there.
Anyway, when you refer to Dan, can you please call in
boys proper name defined?
Dan, defined.
Damn.
Defined.
Yeah.
Is that really what?
Call me what you are, man.
It's defined.
Yeah.
I like a fantastic man better.
That title is great.
It's a good one.
Fantastic man defined.
Then.
Yeah.
For anybody that's an Alan Partridge fan, you might get that reference.
Cool.
Okay.
So shall we talk to our guests now?
It's been as it's 23 minutes.
We've ignored, we've ignored our guests for 25 minutes.
We should have the time as usual.
Should we, or should we be even more standoffish since this is our first week back after a while
away?
Okay.
Hang on.
Let me, let me kick this off.
Let me, let me ask you to find Dan some shit.
So Dan, before I start, is the thing, is that like pretty public now?
People know about that?
You know, the thing that I'm talking about before I start talking about it?
I do.
We can talk about that, but there's been some developments on that where I'm not
going to be involved with it.
Okay. So I'll give a small amount of background to the thing.
So Defiant Labs, I believe.
Dan, and who's your partner, Dan?
Yeah.
So basically me and a friend, Kyle, we've been working together for like six years.
We created Defiant early 2022 and we're working on a couple of things.
You want me to just kind of tell you a little bit about the company and then you can
go the direction you want?
You can tell us about the company, then I'll ask you about the
company, obviously address, obviously registration numbers.
We're really not that old.
Excuse me.
I'm doing the interviewing here.
No, is that a good...
Can you just...
I'm a Virgo.
So I want to know what you are.
Can you just interview yourself because Null is really not a good interviewer.
Dan, tell us about the company.
Tell me where you grew up.
Then I'll ask you some pointed questions about all the stuff that you got going on.
Get it.
Yeah, sure.
So we primarily are doing like three things.
So the biggest thing that we started with first was trying to solve a tax problem for Cosmos.
So my goal was I wanted to index all of Cosmos, like pre-index it all and do a MySQL database,
or actually we use Postgres, but I wanted to index it in there and make like a nice friendly
app that you can go to, connect your wallet to, get all of your taxes.
Primarily for you as citizens, because that's like the tax law that I know, but I imagine it
could be adapted to others.
So that's like the big thing that we've been working on.
We did that with a grant from the Interchain Foundation via Strangelove, and then we also
got some help from Osmosis for actually indexing all their custom modules.
Instead of just like the bank, stake, gov, all see, we added the gam, the superfluids,
all those different modules.
And we made it so it's really easy.
You just go to, I'll post a link in the chat here.
Our tool is called Sycamore, which is a great name.
It's like you're sick of more taxes.
Like I love my name.
Oh, that's good.
But I'll post it in both the chats if you guys want to check it out.
But yeah, you just type in your address right now and then you can get your Osmosis taxes
and we're looking to expand to a whole bunch of other chains.
The other main thing that we're working on right now is also for the Osmosis team.
They wanted a solution to have the mainnet and the testnet prices match.
So we're creating a custom module that will allow us to basically scan mainnet,
see what the pool ratio balance is, and then on testnet we'll be able to mint tokens and we'll
be calling that module to make the testnet pools match.
So like once a day, we're trying to bring parity to Osmosis testnet to be similar to mainnet,
which we think will help out with like development.
So that's the second big thing that we're working on.
And then the third thing that Kyle and I started together,
but actually Kyle's going to take it and run it on his own, is a arbitrage solution.
So I think that's what Noel was hinting at earlier.
Yeah, so like I find your arbitrage thing really cool.
And I will try to explain it the best I can so I can ask further questions.
But so basically the guys at Defiant have created, it's an API which simulates the transaction
and works out the arbitrage between the pools so that you can submit your transaction to the API
and then it will give back to you a message with the transaction as well as the other
transactions you need to make to self arbitrage that transaction which you're unbalancing the
pools with. So you'll get the most benefit back from the other pools instead of someone else
taking the arbitrage of those pools. But you were looking for a home for that to be able to
integrate that with an AMM somewhere or at least the UI of an AMM. And I know I tried to help you
hook up with a couple of people to try and make that happen. But I'm just wondering like,
can you talk about how that went? Or if you had any traction with that? Or if you just sort of
given up on trying to include it in a UI somewhere? Yeah, no progress is being made. I actually just
sent a message to Kyle to see if he wants to hop in here and talk about it because he's really been
running point on it. But yeah, we ended up basically what the tool does is we realized,
hey, if you can predict the user's intent ahead of time, you can bundle both the swap and the
arbitrage transaction at the same time. So you basically you backrun users, which is okay,
because the users still get their same rate, but you front run everyone else like all the
osmosis or all the arbitrage bots that exist on chain. So you kind of get placed between those.
The user still gets a good rate, but the transaction never goes on chain really to the point where
people can compete against it because you can you know it ahead of time. But the only way that you
can do that is if either you're making the trade or you're someone like a dex or a wallet and you
know the trade that the user is about to make. So that's what we really targeted our tool at is
having that advanced knowledge and being able to capitalize on MEV on there. We built out a
couple different or yeah, we built out a couple different clients for like testing it out so people
can integrate. We've talked with almost every dex I think in the cosmos. We have up or Kyle has
the proposal up right now on Astroport. I think the two leading proposals on there are his company
Redpoint, which is what it's going to be called. And oh, here he is. Well, I'll let him talk.
Good, Kyle. How you doing? Good, man. How are you?
Hey, Kyle. Good. So I'm not fully caught up on what you're talking about, but did you basically
want me to give a rundown of what Redpoint is? Sure, go for it. Yeah, yeah. So what we were
talking about just to catch you up is we're talking a bit about the the is that what you're
calling it? Sorry, Redpoint, the arbitrage tool? Yes, correct. Yeah, okay. So we were talking a
little bit about Redpoint and just how you guys were trying to find a home for that in a UI somewhere
probably with a dex and just sort of talking about how that was going. So you are the man
with the information. So awesome. If you invited you up to talk about it, hit it.
Yeah, so I don't know if anyone here is aware of this, but we recently just submitted a proposal
to Astroport. So basically, like high level Redpoint is an API that you can submit a user's
trade information to, like tell it what trade a user plans to make on a dex, but the trade has not,
you know, has not been conducted yet. And Redpoint will tell you two things. Number one,
it can tell you the best way to make that trade, which some dexes may or may not want to know,
like they might already know how they want to make the trade. And number two is it will tell you
how to follow up that user's trade with an arbitrage trade. So at present, it does cyclic
arbitrage within the dex. So like if you use the API for osmosis, it will tell you how to make a
trade for, let's say 100 Osmo through a certain set of tools and get back more than 100 Osmo.
Obviously on osmosis, this is kind of useless now because there's Protorev on osmosis, which
already is an arbitrage capture algorithm that's in protocol. So as Protorev gets more advanced,
external tools will be less and less useful. But the point of Redpoint basically is at present,
it's an off-chain API that can give you that kind of information to make better trades.
As you'd see in our Ash Report proposal, we plan to make a smart contract that does this fully
on chain. So it would get all the pool prices and things like that of Ash Report or whatever
dex it's integrated with from that dex's LPs. It would calculate the arbitrage trades and make
those trades all on chain. And the way that would work at present for a dex like Ash Report is
they'd just call the smart contract in the transaction after the user's trade. So it would
kind of be a two-part transaction where part one is the same way that's today for the dex, where
they just do the user swap. And part two is the smart contract for Redpoint. And Redpoint also,
for example, on Ash Report also offered to pay the user's transaction fees fully. So the user's
not going to incur any additional gas fees from calling this smart contract. So I think that's
pretty much high level of rundown of what the tool is if anyone has any questions.
How did it come to be? I mean, it sounds really cool. What I'm imagining as an initial pass would
have been just like what, generating the JSON for it and then you could issue it via the CLI. So
then what I guess you could have for yourself originally, right? Yeah. So all this software
was custom made by me. Honestly, originally, I saw transactions on chain that were doing arbitrage
where they were on osmosis and they were trading some amount of Osmo for more Osmo. And I kind of
asked myself, how is that possible? How is somebody literally making free money? You know,
as I learned more about it, I obviously realized it's not free money, right? It has a service to
the community, which is that it balances the pools. And I figured out how it works. So originally,
it really started as an arbitrage bot on Osmosis that was just, you know, racing, competing with
all of the other bots on Osmosis to do what everyone's doing there. It's kind of like a losing
game, though. There's lots of transaction fees there. There's spamming the chain with tons of
failed transactions. And that's kind of, I think, what the Osmosis team realized is that it's not
an efficient way to do arbitrage. So out of that red point was kind of born where it's like, hey,
the reason all this arbitrage exists is because, you know, people are making certain trades. So why
not have the users tell you what trades they're planning to make in advance, and then you can
calculate what the resulting arbitrage would be in advance and guarantee that you capture that
arbitrage rather than, you know, random bots on chain capturing that arbitrage. So when I came to
that realization, that's when I realized you could actually, in Cosmos SDK, you can package
multiple messages into a single transaction, and then you can atomically do more than one thing.
In this case, you're kind of atomically doing the user swap plus the arbitrage swap in a single
transaction. So that's kind of the technique that's at the basis of Red Point's tool and obviously
the algorithm to figure out the arbitrage as well. So do you see, so besides the current
proposal that's out there, do you have any other leads about where this might be integrated as well
or other things that you're working on with it? Yeah, so I'm hoping as one of the first steps here
to get an integration with a DEX front end or a popular aggregator like TFM that can use off-chain
tooling that does this, because most of the DEX is in the ecosystem right now or most of the front end
tools in the ecosystem right now, they're not capturing all of this arbitrage value. It's
just going to bots out there and therefore whoever is generating or originating, I should say,
whoever is originating these trades isn't actually capturing value from them. So that's the first
step. And the second step to me is making this thing fully on-chain. I think Red Point in particular
has a huge advantage over other searchers out there that do arbitrage searching. Even if they try to
use the same technique that we came up with, which was packaging the two swap messages into the same
transaction, they won't be able to replicate what we're able to do on-chain. Our algorithm's very
efficient. It doesn't use looping or a lot of these other techniques. Like you'll see some open source
software out there that basically has very inefficient mechanisms to calculate this stuff.
So we really believe that at some point in the next year, we're going to release this as kind of
an on-chain smart contract module that people will be able to plug into their DEXes.
Thank you. That's awesome.
Is it going to be affected by, you know, there's obviously a lot, we've had the skip guys on stuff
like that. Is it going to be affected by some of the developments in the space where there's
like, there's an arms race beginning to develop around flash loans, for example. And MEV is obviously
the other big topic where people are going to increasingly be watching what's sort of proposed
in a block and then using bots to say use MEV for additional leverage to gain advantage in these
kind of scenarios. Is the solution sufficient by comparison? It doesn't matter or is there a way
of taking those things to account or is that actually part of the arms race and it's kind of
out of band of where things are now?
So that's a very interesting question. And I think what you're referring to is kind of the
skips logic is basically that searchers should participate in an auction to figure out who
can generate the most MEV for the chain and whoever wins that auction should get the opportunity
to do that. I don't necessarily disagree with that rationale, but I think it's in practice. It can be
very problematic. Number one, because a Dex like Asterport or like Wind, they are not the chain.
They are a smart contract system lying on top of the chain. So any off chain auction that these kind
of Dexes participate in, it can actually be front run by something like Skip Select, which runs on
Juno and other chains, right? So it isn't necessarily efficient or even possible to do these off chain
auctions in the way that is currently being presented today.
Okay. But I guess also my question was, is there a, I guess that actually the answer to my question
is quite straightforward, which is probably not unless you run a modified binary that you've
modified yourself as a validator actually, which looks in the mempool. So there's actually, I
think there because of the atomistic you're talking about, there actually isn't a way that I can
think of straight off the top of my head necessarily that you could actually upset the, if you as
long as you can calculate a reasonable bound for what the ARB opportunity is, as long as you package
the transactions together, I think you're quite hard to front run in Cosmos is my feeling. But
I'm wondering if there is a scenario where there is a vector where somebody could be, could see
that there is, oh, there's, let's say, you know, it's successful and there's like a significant
amount of volume, you know, is there an incentive for somebody to basically come up with that solution
that is actually able to front run it? I can't think of how they could be because
like when you package transactions, they have to go through it together or they don't go through
it all. So if you're already rebalancing your own unbalance, then there's not really any
opportunity for someone else to sandwich trade you. Yeah, even MEV.
Yeah. And that's by design, right? It would be very, if that design gets changed, it would be
very much like saying, oh, well, we just don't want Redpoint to exist in this ecosystem. So
like we invented a new way to prevent it that that in my mind would kind of be like
along those lines. But at present, I think, and this is why we kind of designed Redpoint this way,
it should be like that. There should be a way for a DEX like Ash report or whoever is designing
their own solutions to say like, I want these things to run as a unit, whether that's MEV or
not, it doesn't have to be, but I like the current design of the SDK being like that.
And going back to the topic of like on chain versus off chain auctions, like if you're a
DEX like Ash report, you can't really run this off chain auction effectively, which is my argument
for why it's problematic is because any searchers that participate in this off chain auction don't
actually know which transactions and what order they will be in the blocks that they're actually
betting on, right? Because it's an off chain auction, let's say the chain gets really busy on
Terra or any other place where an auction like this ran, how do you actually know the ordering
or even amount of transactions that will eventually end up in the block here? It's really just guess
work. So I think anyone who enters into this kind of auction scenario off chain is going to have
kind of, they're going to run into problems as we get to a bull market or a busier market where
searchers start underbidding because the searchers aren't actually sure like about the accuracy of
their estimates. That makes sense. I think that was the end of my questions. I mean,
I'm not the DeFi guy here, right? That's about as clever as I can pretend to look for as long as
I can pretend to look like it. I know what I'm doing. I don't think we have a DeFi guy with
DGEN guys. We're like fucking 4 DGENs and that's it. Yeah, it's kind of weird position too because
your market is almost the customer as opposed to the exchange itself, which I think is fairly
unique, right? There's almost an argument to be made that one thing you could do is create this
as an API for users and for them to use it, let's say you get 10% of the ARB that they get out of
using it, right? It's a pretty unique value proposition in my opinion. I feel like the exchange
is a customer as well because it's a good draw card for customers if you have that functionality.
I can say that the very first tool that released was called Defiant Swap and it was kind of targeted
at users where a user could use in a CLI in their ledger. They could just do a swap and they would
get that arbitrage back themselves as long as they had enough of the asset to do the arbitrage.
Kyle, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original proposal that got put onto
Astroport was actually favored very heavily towards the users where it's like, hey, the users should
get most of the rewards. They're the ones who did the swap. They should be getting at least 80%
of the arbitrage returned, but it seems like the community in general that are able to influence
this decision feel like it should be balanced differently. The fucking community, the biggest
DGNs of all, hey? Yeah, and Dan, the proposal that was put on Astroport basically just called out
the fact that the Astroport community can choose how much money goes back to the users as a percentage.
It didn't specify what percentage should go back to the user, but I agree with you that the Astroport
community did not seem interested in returning a percentage of that to the user. So is that
like a param? So it's part of the smart contract system. So for basically the proposal to Astroport
and the proposal we're making to other DEXs is you can use our API offline, right? Or sorry,
off chain, I mean, and queer API, and then you can submit the trades with our smart contract
on chain. So like on Terra and on Juno, we'll have a smart contract. We actually already have a smart
contract, which was for JunoSwap, which we obviously know is now basically gone. But anyway,
you can submit the actual trades to that smart contract and it will divvy up the funds in the
way that you want. So it could send 80% to one address and 20% to another address. So that's
basically the concept. Yeah, okay. That's cool. Well, yeah, I'm out of questions. I'm exhausted on
questions unless anyone else has any. The only other thing I'll say that I didn't say about Defiant
as a whole is what you guys do. We run a lot of validators and actually have a fun story I can tell
you guys about today. I didn't even... So I also work at Strangelove, right? And we have some great
mechanisms in place there for like notifying us of like when chain upgrades happen. And Strangelove
does not validate on Kujira, but Defiant Labs does. So I totally missed the Kujira update today.
I started seeing some alerts on my Discord bot. I was like, oh, why was my Kujira in there down?
Hopped in the Discord. Saw that they did an update. I was like, oh, shit, I got to really quickly
build a new image. And man, it was a nightmare. Something with the new build process, they weren't
supporting cross architecture builds. I usually build stuff. So I'll work on both ARM and AMD.
So I had to like completely rewrite my Docker file so that it only builds on AMD64, get rid of all
the Alpine stuff in there. And now it made the Docker image go from like 160 megs to three gigs.
So now everything's taking longer to start up. And like, I was down for probably about two hours.
I was like, man, I'm going to have to bail on Game of Nodes if I can't get this working.
But luckily I'm here. Wow, you are one of the few in the proud that run Cosmos on Docker.
I've only heard of a couple you got like, Ecosake and now Defiant Labs. That's all you got.
Well, Strangest Lab does too. We both run fully in Kubernetes.
Yeah, it's all paid.
It doesn't run Docker, it runs Kubernetes.
Right. Got it, got it, got it, got it.
Yeah, including Horcrux and the whole situation. It's all orchestrated.
Yep, definitely. So what's the, what's your GCP or are you self hosted?
Are you self hosted Kubernetes platform that you deployed yourself?
Yeah, I am on a GCP. I've also tried out these same like scripts that I have on AWS just to
make sure that if something happened to Google that I'd be able to migrate very quickly.
But yeah, as you know, Kubernetes is Kubernetes in most places and it's pretty easy to
redeploy if you have to.
What's the, tell us about the Strangest Lab alerting on upgrades because that's,
we were just actually talking about this today because Todd,
front of the show was talking about like building a way to be able to create meeting requests and
actually put it in the calendar for like, you know, knowing that when upgrades are going and like
having some, some to do's around it. Tell us a little bit about that.
So I don't know if you can, you can build this because we basically have this cool guy at Strangest
Lab named Jay. He's kind of like helps us out with this. So Jay will hop around all the Discord
channels to watch the Polkotu interchange watcher. He just like every day looks on there.
He's like, is there something significant happening this week? Then he updates a shared
calendar for all of us on the engineering team.
Oh, okay.
And so like what happens for us is we see on our calendars that there's an upgrade.
And then if we want to like do the upgrade, like if it's say like,
I want to do the next upgrade, I would just like tag myself as an assignee on that event.
And then I would take care of it.
She's publicize as an ICS as a shared calendar externally.
That's a good idea. I'll reach out to us straight about that.
New AppChine, one that shares upgrades. That's all it does.
Yeah, that's it.
That's a whole chain.
Exactly.
One of those chains.
Yeah.
Couch chains.
Curiosity. I obviously, I'm known on this from this group self-flagellating by running on AWS
in terms of cost. How have you found GCP in terms of cost and also, you know,
the Kubernetes experience for Cosmos? Because we, although it will aggravate nullities,
the A word, over on the Aptos thing, we use Kubernetes and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And it's expensive for various reasons, but Cosmos, it just, I don't know, kind of, we
started off trying to be super fancy and we've gradually migrated in the direction of
more kind of a bare metal type set up over time.
So I'm kind of curious about what's led you to keep that architecture.
Yeah. So basically, I chose this just based on past experience. It's definitely more expensive.
And I've actually talked to Schultz about this before. Right now, for Defiant, we run three
validators. We validate on Osmosis, Kujira, and Oden protocol. Plus we run the Sycamore tax app.
Plus we run the Redpoint API. And all of that right now costs us about $40 a day to run for
that. Our validator is very minimal right now. Our validator is one century. So there's no
high availability on our validator. But if we had to, we have it all like coded up and terraformed.
So if like a region went down or a zone went down, we can very quickly with a snapshot from Polkachu
and our scripts get back up in less than an hour on pretty much all chains.
My man, you need to like ditch that shit and go bad metal, D-Gen, fucking, uh, I'll hook you up.
I'll tell you the cheapest way to run it. $40 a day or $40. Exactly.
I can get you that $40 for a fucking month. Before a year. $40 a year for a chain. Oh yeah.
Yeah. But the big deal for me is I really want to stay in.
I really want to stay in. The idea we add the generosity really fucking comes out.
And I'm more impressed with you holding on to Odin since I'm also an Odin validator. Boy,
boy, are you losing on that one, dude? Yeah. So actually, I just joined Odin about a month ago.
They said that they were looking to expand their Valset. And so I'm kind of, I've been just trying
it out. They gave us an official delegation. I think it was like 500,000 Odin or something like
that. I think that's what they give to everyone, I'm guessing. But yeah, so I'm on there. I've
only bought about 20 cents of Odin myself just to activate and then everything else is there.
So I'm sure that I have a fucking Genesis bag floating around somewhere that I just like delegated
to someone when I left and can no longer find. I actually had to unbond on Odin. Oh yeah.
Did you unbond? I had to. Yeah. My machine actually died. And since Odin doesn't support
multi-signers, I had to unbond in order to not be jailed. And I actually rebonded, I don't know,
a couple hours ago. So I was unbonded for like three days. Yeah, they have that sub 256 key
or whatever rate. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, the key structure. Yep. Tell me, how's development
going on Odin? Like, what are the prospects looking like over there, boys? So that sums it up. It's
quiet. It's quiet. It sums it up. It seems like there's not a lot of chain development happening.
They're doing things on the side. So like, they have a new wallet being developed for one.
And I know they have like, Wallace sounds right. Yeah.
Odin's the oracle one, right? That's correct. It's a fork of band. Yeah. Why the fuck do they
need? I think they pivot though. Why are we talking about Odin? I'm sorry. I don't know. I think
they've pivoted like two or three times. Yeah, I think they're trying to find they're trying to
find one of this because I thought there was a gaming thing too, because that was the other thing
that the founder had like gaming. No, no. No, that came before. That came before. So they had
like a geo, the original thing was geo. So they had like blockchain geo caching, right? I believe
is what it was. And so they've kind of integrated that into Odin. I think that's actually kind of
cool. Geocaching on on blockchain. Yeah, but that's just not contract use case. You're just like
geo matching. You mean storing two Geo JSON coordinates on a database. Oh, kill me with the
complexity of storing two JSON because it's literally like in in Geo JSON essentially what
it's been a long time since I've worked with Geo JSON, but I think it's literally a mutability
array. Yeah, two items you like. Oh my god. Hold on now. You can back up. All right. You can also
get the NFT if you get if like if you get like go to a Geocache, all right. Like that's kind of cool.
I enjoy that a lot. I don't know if you can actually do that on Odin, but I'm
yeah, I kind of wanted to do I wanted to do I've literally been too lazy to do this, but I
I worked out how it like it's fucking trivial to do as far as I can tell. The big problem is
basically lining up with a base map, which was the fucking bane of my life when I used to do
administrative geography on British government stuff because nothing of a fucking excuse me.
Can we unpack that? Yeah, I didn't know you work on base maps, man. I worked at Esri for
six or years or so. I actually wrote their JSON schema for all their mapping. So like everything
the reason why you can take maps from like mobile to desktop to web is basically because of me.
Hold on. Back it up even further. I worked at Ram McNally 30 30 years ago, 30 years ago, digitizing
actual paper maps into digital layers that they're using from a CAD structure to be able to
recreate maps at any size. There you go. That's awesome. If it helps at all, I've extensively
used QGIS. So what the hell is that? QGIS. It's like if you've ever been to the Esri subreddit though.
Oh man. Esri is a crazy. That's a cool tool set, but it's like it's really not. I've done it a
couple of times and it was just like crazy. So I could then be like fine. It's in Jason now. I
don't have to give a fuck. Right. It is like man, GIS is fucking phenomenal when you leverage some
of the tools. It's like fucking phenomenal. The point was the thing I wanted to do was a DGen NFT
where, because obviously I'm a dickhead who likes riding bikes up hills. I wanted to do
NFT. All you need is there's a file format called FIT, which is basically data from a GPS unit.
So you need to just parse that on a front end, essentially take the start and end point and
then the delta of the time you enter that on the GPS thing where it's taking whatever,
like several sample every 100 to the second. And then you can get a time from top to bottom and
then you can store that on chain and then in an NFT. I mean, that'd be kind of cool. Stravan needs
something to disrupt them. They have no competition really. Yeah. This would be like,
okay, it's not quite a piece of piss. It's actually like maybe a month's worth of work,
which is why current circumstances I don't have the time to do it. But yeah, it was,
I originally started coding something for the original Hack Juno and then got distracted with
various other things that were frankly much higher priority. So there's some code in the
Never Never pile at the moment for that one. Somebody did launch something on Terra though, similar,
but I think it died. Do they only have location data or do they also have things like heart rate
and like that kind of stuff? Oh yeah. Anything that you have recorded from whatever the sensor
array is to whatever the recording unit is. So that all of the different sensors talk Bluetooth
or AMT plus to the recording unit and then the recording unit compiles the fit file.
Which is just one of the many formats. I think there's actually several formats
that are kind of similar. But I think FIT is the one that I know of.
Okay. Yeah, I've seen GPX a lot as well too. Yeah, GPX is the base map plus overlay. So
the GPX file is the one that also has direct, no, it doesn't have directions. It's just a mapping
of start to end point. And then there's a separate format for like, oh, to get from the start to end
point, you have to go left, right, left, left, right, right, left, right, left, right, whatever,
to get the whole way around the route that you've marked. That's why you need to pay
like a third party like Garmin or somebody some extra money because you have the base map and then
you have the whatever that thing's called the overlay with the directions. It's all quite
complicated actually. But like at the heart of it, you just want to like DJ and NFT. That bit's
quite simple. It's what it meant because it's just a it's just a JSON. And they're all fucking lines
as well on roads. Although I guess, you know, people like Highlander that do mountain biking,
that's probably mountain biker too. It's probably more complicated.
That puts a fear in me mountain biking because it'd be like a big wiggly, a wiggly guy.
I've tried mountain biking and I'm too much of a weenie. I'm like that's just come at me real
fast. You get used to it. I really enjoy like riding like off road things and recording them
and then going on to something like open street maps and uploading the trails. And then like you
can like, if you do that, you can often pick the name of the trails. So I thought it might be kind
of cool to like have some fun trolling there, picking some funny names so that when people are
like on the Strava like the fuck is this? Yeah, you can name the segments as well if you're the
first one to define them. Yeah, that's awesome. What's this DGEN trail? Yeah, what's Big Balls
Blackchain Trail? Where does this thing go? Big Balls Way. Yeah, this place is in the world where
there's like 10,000 Strava athletes and they're all competing for every like inch of everything
and you're not going to find a segment you can make them. If you're like, yeah, if you go like
some, I was with some friends a couple of years ago in like a really rural bit of France where
there was a road to literally an abandoned village and then at the abandoned village it was a dead
end. You're like, name away because there are not many Strava athletes here. Except for, I think
it was like Lily, is it Lily and Carmejan, the rider I'm thinking of? There's somebody on Azure
Dezer, Citron, who lives in that area and it was just like one of those where there's these random
hills with like, this has been ridden by 10 people and the person who got the quickest time was 10
minutes quicker than everybody else and is a world tour rider. It's just like this guy who just lives
in that part of France and is like, well, I guess I ride up everything. That's what I do. And that's why I'm...
Connect the, like for example, like when you're biking and generating fit data, if you could connect
that to like geocasting on the blockchain, right? It's like, almost you have to like do this event
in the real world on a bike in order to unlock something. Right? That's what I'm saying. Wouldn't
that be friggin' cool? I'd be all about that. I mean, it's sucking hard.
It's linked the two up. Like the only different, the only problem you'll have is that, I mean,
I guess you guys know this because you work with geodata is that the recording is always a bit
fucked. So you kind of need a little bit of fuzziness. And that's the bit where you need like
some off-chain stuff to go like, like Elasticsearch GeoSearch is really good for that, actually.
It's really good for just going like, is this roughly what I meant? And it's like, kind of,
you're like, they match. Chalk it up as a match. Like, that's why there's the big report button
on Strava because the chalk it up as a match is definitely what Strava does behind the scenes
with Elasticsearch. I don't think they even do that much. I mean, there's been times whenever
I actually left my Strava on and like drove like 20 miles and they were like, wow,
you got so many KOMs. You are so good. And I was like, oh, Jesus. You know, there's a whole
twerking after that. There's somebody made somebody made a bot that just watches the watches Strava
for like public public runs or rides, I think that are over a certain miles per hour. And
they just like post a sarcastic comment like, this guy's going like a train. And it's like,
there's just like somebody getting on the train in Brussels and they're going to Paris. And it's
obviously just the high speed train. Well, you'd imagine that Strava would be like, okay,
so this is over 20 miles per hour. I'm just going to like, I mean, not 20 because I can hit like
50 going downhill on my bike, but like, come on now. This person's been doing.
That's a fast man. I'm afraid to go 50 miles per hour.
Yeah, I think the quickest I've ever done is 82 kilometers an hour. So
fucking fast, man. Yeah, it was with the tailwind on a plateau up in the north in the mountains.
But it was, it was that that was like, when you see the people like in the professionals,
where they're doing like 95 kilometers an hour downhill, you're like, literally,
I did on a well maintained bike on a reasonable road surface and it felt like the thing was going
to shake itself pieces and take off into the air. Yeah, it was terrifying. Those teams have chase
teams and they have 25 bikes and like 100 engineers. It's just you and your balls on that fucking bike.
Like something exact same situation, right? There's like 100 people looking at them
that bike to make sure it's fine. You're just like, that's good. These guys do it.
No problem. I had just gotten the, what are the arrow bars and I just got a new carbon bike.
So I was like, Oh yeah, there's like a 21% grade hill near Rylev that goes for about a
mile. And I was like, I'm doing it. I'm going to do it. Perfect. And so I did. And yeah,
I hit like 15 miles per hour. Has anyone ever witnessed the Superman on a
bicycle? Nice person. What? You mean like we put your chest on the seat and like put your legs
on everything? Yeah, I've seen it like when I was younger. It reduces your surface areas so much.
Oh yeah. Like go faster downhill than people pedaling. You hit like a pothole though. Like
you really Superman there. Was that in Le Mans or not Le Mans? Whatever it was.
Yeah, it's been banned now. It's been banned. That's actually been. I reckon if you've got
the balls to do a fucking Superman, you deserve it. Exactly. No, they, if you even do a version
of it where you keep your hands on the tops and you put your, and then you put your wrists on the
tops and then you put your hands down and then kind of, essentially like if you take your bum
off the seat now and your hands are not in the standard position, Dave, I think the fine is
some bullshit. It's like 500 Swiss francs. Like memory gives a fuck. But they can take off the,
they obviously can dock you your position. They can dequeue you from that day or dequeue you from
stage racing. So what about where they like, you know, they slide forward onto the little bar
and like, yeah, that's immediate qualification. Yeah, that's super tuck. I've, I've, I've, I,
occasionally do the super tuck and it is that is terrifying.
It looks terrifying. It looks like you have zero fucking control over that thing when you do that.
You don't have as much control now. It is, it is fucking fast though. Like if you have,
if you have like a bit of a tailwind, it's quite a calm day and you're confident in the road surface
if it's not like good sight lines and you, you don't mind just being like any car behind me has to
just go fuck themselves. You can kind of super tuck and people, yeah. People just want to suck
as a psychopath. It's, it's great. Oh, who is this man and what the fuck is he doing?
But then what you find is this, it's super efficient for a certain type of hill that
is, is like the French, Swiss and Italian mountains. Like if you're, if your hill is only two, two
kilometers, it's probably more efficient a lot of the time at actually just to fucking pedal in the
big ring or like, sure, see if you've got aero bars and your balls genuinely are so swollen that
you will go on the aero bars downhill, which I used to have on aero bars on my commuter slash
touring bike. And I think I once went downhill on the aero bars and I was like, no, like,
another person that would do a super tuck, right? I was like, no, never, never. It's too terrifying.
It's just you're like arms outstretched. You're not too, too insane, too insane.
So anyway, back to our guests, Dan. So I'm curious, how much of the chains did you end up
getting indexed? Yeah, so far it's just osmosis. We've indexed all of 2022. We just realized
that we're missing a couple of months of the super fluid rewards. So we're going back and
we're fixing that right now. And then we want to try to get all the, it's a little hard because
osmosis, maybe Kyle can explain this part better, but like the message types kind of
change over time. So like the indexer that's capable of like indexing blocks that are happening now,
it might be like different like messages like create balancer pool or swap exact amount in,
like they kind of change over time. Kyle, can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Yeah, you pretty much have it exactly right. Like some of the, some of the message types
have changed and they get removed from the SDK. So for external client tools, like the
like the text tool that we made that impacts us. I think the osmosis team to be fair is very
aware of this now. So I don't know that they'll be doing that in the future. They'll probably like
version, like if there's a new version of message create balancer pool or whatever,
they'll probably version it and leave it in the SDK. And we did find a solution which is basically to
make folders in your client tooling with the custom codecs and then register them with the SDK. So
it's not like it's an impossible hurdle, but not a lot of teams probably know how to know how to
do that or have done it before. But, but yeah, there's been some challenges, but the software is
pretty stable now. Like Dan said, we're just going back and making sure we have all of the
we have all of the osmosis rewards indexed. That's also been challenging because there's not a ton
of archive nodes out there that actually have all that rewards data archived. And of those nodes,
a lot of them don't have, there's like specific settings you have to have to be able to grab
those, those rewards from the blocks. Yeah, I'll say because this is a validator podcast,
we should geek out on that part a little bit more. So there's a setting in your config Tomel
called broadcast TX timeout. And by default, it's set for 10 seconds. So if you're not able to query
the data that you want within 10 seconds, you're going to get an EOF is going to end a file you
and cut you off. And that's what we were noticing a lot when we were indexing some of these like
huge epoch epoch blocks that happen once a day in osmosis. So we ended up adjusting that setting
to something ridiculous like 10 minutes. And then we realized, Hey, there's like a bazillion other
transactions that are now available because we increased this time out. So is this this isn't
for so this is more like RPC archive node operators, right? Not not validators like that
that time out is specifically for when you're querying the the RPC or the API. Yeah, it's when
you're querying the RPC for the epoch rewards. So even if you're not an archive node, and you just
want to know like the details of the last epoch, you will probably need to like make that setting
to be able to pull all the data down. Thank you. Yeah. So answer your question. Just osmosis,
but we definitely want to expand other chains. So we think it'll be pretty easy to expand to
chains that are very similar to like osmosis that just have like the normal staking module,
the bank, the gov, the Aussie, but other chains that have custom cosmos modules, like for example,
the Kujira oracle module, like that's something that we would have to like do custom software for,
or anything that like involves like a message execute contract that adds a whole another level
of complexity where we have to parse the contract, figure out what kind of transactions it's doing.
Is your indexing like, have you written it entirely from scratch or is that originally
based on like BD Juno or? Kyle, you want to take that one? Yep, it's written from scratch. Obviously,
like it uses the tools that we could that were already out there, like the cosmos SDK and things
like that. So we're for as far as like RPC connections and things like that, we use the
cosmos tooling that was already available. As for parsing the actual messages, we do use the libraries
in cosmos SDK as much as possible. But those mostly just give you access to like events and
attributes and things like that. And then if you want to do any custom analytics or, you know,
understand things in any way, you have to develop custom logic to do that. So that's what we've been
doing at this point. We have we have a lot of code that we can reuse in the code base. Like so,
for example, integrating something like Kujira would be a lot easier now than it would be
like 10 months ago. Because a lot of these chains share the same type of events when they're doing
things like coin received or coin sent. And even if you have a smart contract based event that happens,
it typically follows certain patterns. So that does make it a little bit easier. And we've designed
our code base around that. But when you're dealing with smart contracts, you never know,
it's really up to the contract author how they want to structure things and, you know, what type
of events get emitted and that sort of thing. So with the general modules, like, well, with
the data in general, like, how are you actually storing that in the database? Like, how are you
translating the state into like database tables? Is it all like in one big table? Or is it like
each module has a table? Like, I'm not into those types of things. I don't understand how that really
works. Yeah. So I come from a kind of probably typical computer science background. So I have a
lot of experience with relational databases. So basically, we tried to model it out as like blocks,
blockchains. Everything has a separate table, essentially. And when you come when it comes
down to the actual taxable data, I think the two models we generally used were taxable events and
taxable transactions. And then within a taxable transaction, you have another table for like
messages. So everything's kind of modeled the same way as the SDK models it. But we did follow
relation like best practices with relational patterns. So like, if we wanted to do different
lookups on that data in the future, like maybe when want to follow the money of one specific
account around, it should be pretty easy to design SQL queries to do that. So if somebody wants to
take the product that we created, which is open source, by the way, and they want to target it
more around general analytics or just anything other than tax data, they should be able to do that.
I mean, there's quite a big, there's a lot of talk about better
Cosmoise and indexing as well. So that's kind of the obvious one, I suppose, if there's and
obviously a multiple indexing solutions and have had various of them had various of a cracker there.
I suspect the problem, the problem is as much availability as data, like you guys kind of hinted
at. I don't think there's any like one, you know, one, one to rule them all in indexes,
is it because everything's like quite bespoke now. You've got the SDK modules, but then anything
like Kyle was saying, anything extra on top of that, like a custom module or smart contracting
all becomes sort of bespoke indexing from there. So yeah, well, in addition, if the events that
you want aren't exposed at the time you need them, you have to just go look directly in the state
of the chain, which is what the the Dowdow guys have done. That's their solution, isn't it,
to run a custom binary. So previously, like I tried to get some information back when Dowdow
first launched, I was trying to get some information out of one of the Dow contracts,
right, it was like some staking information for someone who's just out of curiosity because
someone had asked a question in a discord and I went down the rabbit hole of trying to like
figure out what they were asking. And the only way to get it was to dump the state and decode
everything and then yeah, and that's how each block is like, index now, I think they literally
run they run an RPC with a modified binary. Each block, it shoves it into a postgres.
All right. Yeah, well, it was a huge pain in the ass getting that out. Like it was
a fucking pain in the ass for me anyway, being a retard. I was going to ask, can you also do
there's a role contract state query, I believe for Cosmosm as well, can you get some of that
information with that with that query? Oh, sorry, what was that query with which one? I believe
there's a role for Cosmosm, I believe there's like a role contract state query you can run.
Yeah, that was the one. It was just like a state dump. Oh, yeah, that just dumps the whole thing.
Is it paginated or not? I can't remember. I can't remember, but it was like all encoded and you
had to like unencode each bit and they were encoded in different ways. And it was, yeah,
it was fucked. That's not too bad. So we had to do that for the howl drop, like just dump the,
so the raw state from memory is, I think it is paginated because it's quite hard to get the
whole thing. So I think you, Serpa actually ended up just dumping the chain state in full
for us, maybe. Somebody, maybe it was you now. It was one of the games that's through.
Yeah, I got it done for you. Yeah. You just dumped the whole chain state because the CLI
version wasn't giving us everything we needed. So I think you just did a full dump and then,
obviously, you then just go because it's just JSON, you just grab the smart contract you're
after and then throw it into a data pipeline and rust and just let it do its thing. But it was, yeah.
I do remember doing that, but now I have the question of why the fuck do you just do it yourself?
Do you not have a validator? It's gonna be fucked really. Yeah, I don't help anybody.
I don't help anybody. You got anything to do because I can't fucking do this.
It definitely wasn't me. I think joking aside, it was a time when we were fucking around
moving the node onto TMKMS and stuff and it was just like, I don't want to turn
shit off or fuck around with that sports anything in case this shit doesn't turn back on because
I don't trust it. Yeah, I think I remember. I think you were like, do you have a node you can turn
off? And I was like, yeah. Yeah, because it was big. Did you know dumps are quite big, aren't they?
No, it takes a fair while as well. It takes like a good 10 or 15 minutes to actually dump it.
Would you remember in the first cyber attack, one of the things that took the longest actually
in the restoration of the chain was that we needed multiple dumps to see the block before
the problem, the block of the problem, and then the one where consensus failed and just getting
each block initially, like getting a dump at that block just took fucking ages for a full block
from the archive node. Yeah, it takes a long time to dump sometimes. And sometimes you get,
so I remember that someone was trying to get a dump from me for something I can't remember
who it was or what it was for, but it kept EOM. EOMing, like, it's just the dump was so hard
on the RAM. Like I had 128 gigs of RAM on this thing and like out of memory, fucking just trying
to do a state dump. So I think that was me. I think I was asking for a dump for a cosmos
endpoint. And you were like, yeah, I can't do it. Can't do it. Honestly, I don't know why people
keep asking me for dumps. Is there's just a group somewhere where people are like, need a dump?
Go this guy. Go to this guy. No, I worked. So, okay, okay. Also, I'm saying I'm looking at the
clock. We've got limited amount of time with our guests. The next o'clock? Run it down. Run it down.
Yeah. So I was saying to you, Sir Peralia, that I was jealous of the cool clock he has in the
background. My UTC clock. I kind of want to get a cool clock for the background. But the problem
is where would I put it? Like in the pocket of the cycling jet? Like where? There's no fucking
specific. You'd have to rearrange that pile of garbage you have behind you. That's the fucking
bike seat. Laundry and racks of shit that's... This is not laundry. These are all clean clothes.
It's over. Yeah. Why do you hang them like laundry? For some reason, that's the way you do
biking jerseys. I think every single biking jersey I've seen is hung up like that. Yeah.
Yeah, you just wash them and you throw them. Throwing over shit. It's a big... Yeah. I mean,
you get the Marshall. You get that. I see a Marshall back there, but it's not in frame. Then you have
like... Yeah, there's a nice boogie down here. What's behind you? What's the little black thing
sticking up? Is that like a rack that's not doing anything? Either side? I hope my other side.
The other side. Other shoulder. It looks like an amp back there. So other side. Other side.
Next to your bikes. Yeah. That's a Marshall, right? That's what that is. Yeah, there's a
Marshall half stack. But what's behind you though? What's that thing? Those are bikes back there.
Is that a bike? Those are like marching bikes for... Aren't you an addict? What do you bring that
thing down three flights of stairs? They're trainers, right? Yeah. When I'm going outside.
Yeah. That's my race. That's my race bike. In the US, they sing it's called garages.
Well, yeah, I clearly don't have a garage. So...
So I like that. Check out my trainer. Is it showing? What's that? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I can see. Oh, yeah, look at that. A garage. Yeah, I got a mountain bike on a TACX NEO,
which is like the greatest trainer ever. I don't know if you guys have seen those,
but they can actually simulate like the surface that you're on. So if you're like riding in Zwift,
which is like a virtual way to ride. So like when you pedal, your avatar in the game will ride.
If you go over pedals or like pebbles, the trainer itself will like simulate that you're
riding on wooden planks, pebbles by like shaking your chain. So it feels like you're really
on a tactile surface. Is that actually good? That's interesting.
Dan, I should add you onto it. I use it too. Okay. Yeah, cool. Sure. I'll shoot you.
This is... Oh, this has got peak fucking. No, it says that now. It's just like...
Exactly. It's a two wheels Zwift.
Yeah. Game of chains, three-bride. Cool.
So I gave it a nudes.
Yeah. You could add us some Zwift. The Game of Nodes Fag Club.
One third of this stream has keyboards in the background.
Oh yeah. I used to play the piano a while ago. Yeah.
Piano and bikes. Where's the...
In laundry. One third. Oh yeah. Two.
How much whiskey have you had tonight?
I like when Noel drinks on the stream. This is the new thing,
because he's actually in the right time zone.
You know, yeah. This is the first time I've actually had any liquor on the stream.
How... Is it better?
Yeah. I mean, not drinking.
Boys will be boys.
I do love how the phrase said, oh, the time's running out. Let's pay more attention to our
guests and then immediately started talking about jerseys and fucking keyboards.
I'm pretty sure I was on the same... I'm enjoying the conversation.
Anyway, anyway, I feel like we also have some quick points of order, which probably...
Oh yeah. Let's do it.
So like, we're going to talk about comfy... Maybe we should get...
Cause less harm on to talk about comfy down at some point or just drop in.
Yeah. We can do that.
He was on earlier. So maybe he'll join now.
There was four...
Like four... Four tombstones today.
What's that?
Four tombstones today on...
Was there? No.
Oh, yes.
Main...
No, Tessnet.
Fuck it. They're not on Mainnet. It's just the Tessnet.
Atlantic Tombstone.
Wait. So, Atlantic Tombstone.
Two. There was four. There was four?
Yeah. Three of them were like team nodes. And then who was the fourth?
Shieldsie.
Ooh. Noted real? No, it wasn't noted real. Hold on. Hold on. I'll look back.
I didn't even...
I didn't even mention the title either.
Wait. It didn't...
Nim Mainnet actually hold, but there weren't any tombstones when it resumed were there?
Well, they're all run by Figment. The top four nodes were run by Figment.
And Figment was like now really even Nim.
And so they lost like 45% of the voting counter.
How fucking hilarious is that?
It's amazing.
They didn't have like an unbonding period?
Or they like...
They didn't have like a cooldown period as well?
They didn't unbond. They just fucking turned their shit off.
Jesus. Like don't fucking delegate to Figment is the moral of that story.
Christ. My prediction...
So Figment is shutting down.
What happens in that situation technically?
Everywhere.
You have to wait for like to get slashed to the point where it doesn't have voting power?
They don't give a shit.
I mean, we're on with like multiple different chains, right?
Including Aptos and everything else.
My guess is they're gone in this year.
Like...
They're leaving like so many chains. It's fucking amazing.
I almost made a tweet because they keep doing the Twitter's like what we're leaving.
I almost made like a shitty tweet about it.
Maybe you could just tweet like what you're staying on.
Yeah, what you're saying.
Like maybe that would be easier.
I reckon they're banging up against the character limit like putting all the networks in fucking labor.
Exactly.
But like just from a note-ups perspective and everything else, like I think they're in trouble.
Like it just seems like they're in trouble.
I mean, I think they had the problem of funding, right?
They received like what was it like two billion dollars of funding back in 2020.
And they're like, okay, well, we should just hire all the people, right?
And then they did and then...
Wait, what? It must have been two billion...
Two billion is...
It can't be that much, right?
Like...
I mean, employees are expensive.
They're not that expensive, right?
Like, yeah, they're not doing that much.
I don't know what they have on the investment side because I'm guessing they've lost a ton of money
and just putting money into chains.
Maybe they just had everything in FTX.
They could.
Everything in FTX and then they had all the like cash cash in SVP and they're just like,
well, we're going to get some cash back in four years time once this is all threshed out.
And that's going to be way too late.
Right. Or they have 300 million and like 300 bad bets, right?
Like, or 30 bad bets or whatever.
But whoever's running the node side of the house,
like, they have really no...
Like, it doesn't seem like it's a priority is what I would say.
Whether or not they're good operators or not,
but it doesn't seem like it's a priority and like, they're not really responding quickly.
They're not understanding what's going on in specific chains.
Like, it just seems like it's not a priority, I think, is what it is.
And that's turning into other issues.
Anyway.
Yeah.
All right.
I mean, I hadn't actually...
I thought that the reason that the NIM hot happened,
I knew Figma were involved in some way.
I thought it was because they were white labelling several nodes and they had...
Yeah, exactly.
Simultaneously.
Yeah, exactly.
No, they shut them all down.
Simultaneously fuck them, but they deliberately left.
That's actually what happened.
They just stop validating.
All the more baffling.
Like...
Assuming they just shut all those nodes down.
Assuming.
And also, like, chains...
I have no sympathy for chains that...
who sponsor that shit.