Yens means like you ones, you ins.
It's like, hey, what are you guys doing?
No, no, no, in Pittsburgh, in Pittsburgh, it's,
hey, what are yens doing in that?
That's how it goes.
["Game of Nerds"]
Welcome to Game of Nerds,
a weekly podcast on the cosmos
from independent validator teams.
["Game of Nerds"]
Hello, welcome to Game of Nerds,
a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent
and very tired and somewhat hangover validator teams.
I think these lads are still recovering from,
right, you did some boozing in East Denver
and it's like at Altitude or something.
And all I saw in the group chat
was complaints about hangovers.
That's basically the whole,
that's basically the whole truth.
It was just like, I was like, how's it going?
And there was, I think I saw it,
I got a picture sent of like short C in one morning,
having like one that like a kind of hangover smoothie
and Noel was like asleep on the edge of the sofa.
And I was like, okay, so everybody's hungover.
That's kind of the vibe I'm getting from East Denver.
So how are the talks?
Crickets.
Did make it.
Well, that was like 11 in the morning too.
That was a hangover picture
like 11 in the morning where we're just like,
I know.
Well, you know the rules.
It's gonna be bad till three in the evening, right?
That's the, you know stuff is serious
if it goes past three in the afternoon,
but other than that, everything's fair game.
The first two days felt like a week.
Like, cause I think, I don't know if it was the first night,
but the Defun guys came over at like midnight
or 1230 one night.
We drank till like 330 and just in our house.
And then next thing I know,
it felt like it was four days later
and that just kind of continued.
But yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
And then Noel, I think, I think we were together
for five days.
I think I probably, the total time we were actually together
with him and I both being awake at the same time
was like maybe a day and a half.
Just very crazy, just jet lagged or did he just?
He was really jet lagged.
Yeah.
Noel doing Noel.
No, no, he was really jet lagged.
We were up late, which I think was early for him.
And then, and then he would go, you know,
it was three or something, go to bed.
And then, then I think one time we were out,
we were out somewhere and it was like 3 PM.
And all I get is that we all get a DM like,
how does the coffee machine work?
It was like 330.
It's like perfect.
I was like, good morning.
I'll worry it.
Well, that was the day that he went to the rave, right?
I guess there was a- Oh, that's right, I forget about that.
Yep.
So we all went to the, I think at the Cosmos Peak event,
I want to say.
And after a couple hours, Usurper and I were like,
all right, well, I think it's about time to take off,
whatever.
Where's Noel?
We couldn't find him.
We did a couple of rounds around the bar,
couldn't find him anywhere.
And it's like, ah, he must have taken off already.
So we take off.
And then that morning at like two in the morning,
he texts all of us and he's like,
hey, what's the code to the house?
Or three in the morning? He's locked out.
Yeah.
But semi-fortunately, the lock to the house
was behind a screen.
So he just like put his hand through the loose screen
and then locked it and walked in.
And then for the rest of the trip,
he was all paranoid about there not being a lock on the house
because there wasn't a lock on that house.
There was literally no-
Wow, that's fucked up.
Yep.
All our servers in danger.
That's kind of like, we were at a conference last year
and some guys at the table next to us were like,
so what do you guys do?
And I was like, get the fuck out of here.
We need to get the fuck out of here.
And then Jake just gets up and it's like,
yeah, we're here for a crypto conference.
And I was like, okay, cool.
Great, we're gonna get murdered in our sleep.
He's like, it's fine.
You're super paranoid.
I was like, Jake, we're within sight of where we're staying.
We now have to decide whether we're either gonna walk
to the door of the place where we're staying
or we go in a completely different direction
purely to throw these guys off.
And he's like, you're overreacting.
Walk straight to the door.
It's like, here we are.
And it's like, okay, we're definitely getting murdered now.
We're definitely getting murdered.
And everybody was super chill about it.
And then when we were upstairs and everybody else was like,
oh shit, actually, phrase right.
We need to wipe our ledgers.
Oh yeah, maybe.
Like just on the off charts,
the lads with hammers are coming.
And I was like, well, it's not even like we've got much.
Well, most of us, it's not even like we've got much money.
So it's just like.
Yeah, you don't have to worry about that anymore, right?
They're like, oh.
I just benefit a bear market, right?
Yeah.
You can bust in your house and what's gonna happen, right?
Right.
They feel bad for us.
Yeah, they're like.
You can have some shit coins.
Ah, they're Cosmos validators.
I can send you four million Chihuahua,
but that's all I got.
I can't even send you servers anymore.
Yeah, exactly.
You could clean me out of a few Gino
but it's gonna be like 50 bucks.
Oh, they're Cosmos validators.
Go pick on someone else.
Yeah, I always find like there's kind of like rave type
things at like a conference or a bit of a weird vibe.
And doubly so at a crypto conference.
You're just like, yeah, I was kind of just happy being
at a bar actually because I'm already just,
it's not happening dance floor other than ironically.
It's like a wedding dance floor at best, but you know.
Wedding dance floor?
Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Like a wedding where it was like.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Lots and lots and lots of love.
Well, and this was hosted by the Malady NFTs, I guess.
It's a Malady NFT rave.
What's a Malady NFT?
I'm not sure what a Malady is, but it's an NFT.
Let's see if we can find it.
I hope it's not a song.
Tell me that doesn't sound just insane levels of awkward.
It sounds quite awkward.
Like I'll be honest.
I'm not sure I could ever show my face in public
if I said that I owned something like a Malady NFT.
That's so funny.
Maybe it's because I'm a boomer
and I don't understand what's cool anymore,
but then that has always been true.
So that's also fine.
So in conclusion then, ETH Denver basically
excuse for a piss up, everything else secondary.
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Yeah, the Cosmos stuff.
There was a lot of Cosmos stuff before I think we got there,
which it seems to be like recurring thing
where like ETH Denver gets announced
and then nothing happens in the Cosmos
and then I already have plans and then,
oh shit, here's five days beforehand
where all these things happen.
Like it's usually last minute
or at least it seems like it's last minute, I don't know.
And so we saw some of that.
Got to see like there's some couple Juno events
which are good and like the Dadao thing that Jake threw on.
That was pretty good.
There was the, was it shared security summit?
Is that what it was called?
Shared security summit.
I missed some of that.
These guys were there in the morning.
I was there in the afternoon, which was good.
I got to meet the skip guys, which was nice.
And there's a lot of like modular blockchain talk
in the afternoon.
It was like over and over,
but there were some good topics in there.
And yeah, I mean, I was just kind of looking
for people who either knew or were like reaching out too.
You know what I mean?
So that was pretty good.
We went to an Aptos thing on Saturday.
I didn't even make it to ETH Denver.
Literally, I didn't even make it to one single thing.
It was like everything else.
Yeah, I didn't go to one thing.
Yeah, I mean, I didn't,
guys I want to kind of walk through at least like the,
I usually like walking through the swag booths.
You know what I mean?
Like just seeing what's around there.
And these guys were like, it was a waste of time.
So I didn't even make it over that.
So a few good after night party things and you know,
honestly it was worthwhile.
It was worth going just to hang out with the,
gave me notes crew plus extended friends
and family type of thing.
And then we took a couple of days out of Denver,
little altitude sickness type stuff and you know, back home.
A little bit of altitude sickness.
It's a couple of beers, bit of altitude sickness.
Oh, I can't understand this though.
So altitude sickness this morning.
Lots of mix of things.
It's definitely what's happened.
Like the one person who hasn't drunk is like, huh, what?
Yeah, so I wish you were there.
Would have been nice to get the four of us together next time.
But they have the- Good reasons.
They talk about that on the train, you know,
when you take the train from Denver to California IA,
they talk about the drink.
They were there like, don't have a,
unless you want the- Oh yeah.
The Zephyr, they have the Rocky cocktail or something.
They're like, don't have a drink
when the train is passing through the high pass
because you'll get smashed off one drink
and you have a right old headache by the time you get there.
Really?
We were going with a couple days.
The train tumble is at 8,000 feet, something like that?
Or is it like, it's a really rememberable number,
which I haven't remembered.
It's either like 6,600 feet roughly,
or it's 8,800 feet, the tunnel.
We were at 10,000 feet.
Yeah, it's as many as 8,000 feet then,
because you come out of the tunnel
from the Denver side of the Rockies,
and then you literally come out of the tunnel
and a ski lift passes over the top of the train.
That's cool.
Well, there's ski lifts everywhere over there, so.
Yeah, because it's a ski lift.
I can't remember which one, I want to say Fraser?
Yeah, Breckenridge is at 9,600, that's the base of that.
And we were up a little bit from that and everything else.
Yeah, a couple of us were feeling it though.
That's like, what, 2,800 meters or something?
It's pretty high.
More even, I think.
3,000 meters.
Wow, okay, shit.
That's like, that's like glacier height.
Yeah.
That's like summer snow height.
That's it.
It was a lot, and it was so dry.
Trying to sleep, you could only,
I got a bloody nose every night for one thing,
and that's not fun.
For two, we were trying to sleep,
and because I'm trying to avoid a bloody nose,
I'm breathing out my mouth, and then my mouth would dry out.
And then you have to do the whole thing
where you swirl your tongue around
to try and generate just a little bit of saliva.
Man, all night long, all eight nights, it was tough.
It was tough.
It was.
It just sounds like a bunch of people in like,
in like early middle adulthood,
just like complaining about mild ailments for three days.
My right knee and my hip are killing me.
Yeah, and the pillows are really tough.
The pillows are rough.
Yeah.
The water's too soft.
Just got a little bit of eczema.
Like this.
God damn eczema.
This humidity, yeah, it would have fit right in.
That would have been great.
I was literally complaining about that earlier today.
So yeah, happy days.
Yep.
So yeah, good thing to have missed that,
but what else has been happening?
So yeah, doxed, I look terrible and sound terrible
because I've just had a child.
So, and that's also why I'm not in eczema now.
That was last week.
Why I'm not in anywhere now other than here
and was changing babies before.
So what the fuck have I missed?
What's been happening in the cosmos or in anywhere?
Like what's been happening?
I've literally not seen any.
The government could have fallen,
I barely would have known.
Like it's just been a long tunnel.
The last week has just been a long tunnel of coffee
and coffee and midnight changes.
I don't know.
Well, we were all kind of out for the last two weeks.
So I don't know what else the hell happened.
Just that altitude sickness.
Just the altitude sickness.
It really does take.
We just keep watching the prices, they keep falling
and we're just kind of sitting around and.
Yeah, every time you think it's at ATL, right?
That is the one thing I have.
That's the one thing I happen paying attention to.
I'm like, ooh, I keep downsizing our servers
and the price keeps coming down and making it unprofitable.
Just like, what are you doing?
Yeah.
Yeah, we've gone from being invited
to fancy cocktail receptions from our account manager
to just not being contacted at all.
Just quietly, quietly ghosted.
You text them and they're like, who's this?
Like this guy's got no money.
Sorry, new phone, new phone.
Are you a client of ours?
No, we're not really sure about that.
Crypto client?
Yeah.
It's not a growth area for us.
Right.
It's not a priority at the moment.
Well, Cerberus shut down on Monday.
I think Cerberus shut down on Monday.
Yeah, we were in the car.
Yeah, we were.
I think Polka, I saw PolkaTube post,
or maybe it was Polka's intern, post on Twitter.
They got the last TX.
Yeah, the last transaction.
Pretty good.
It's a shame they didn't IBC that token,
and then they could have had the last transaction as an NFT.
There you go.
Yeah, that shut down Monday.
It's over.
Dream's over.
Deserve to die, so fair enough.
Well, I think it's pretty interesting, though,
because I think this is the official first chain that's
being shut down.
Because there's even chains from 2018, 2019
that are still running like straight edge.
Straight edge is still running.
And I bet you guys even know what that is.
Nope.
It was like, I think it was a chain,
Sunny was part of it, I think, where
the goal was to create a bridge between the Cosmos and Polka
Dot, I want to say.
And that thing's still running.
It has no developers.
It just has like 10 validators running it for no reason.
So I think that's the first chain to go down.
Is it even IBC'd?
No, it's not.
It's just sat chugging away.
Just making blocks in the corner.
Just making blocks.
Yep, exactly right.
So it's playing with Lego in the corner,
just quietly minding its own business.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
You've got to respect that.
If it's not IBC'd, though, that's the thing.
It's just like, yolo, whatever.
Oh, your ramen said in the chat, dead chain down.
So I am vaguely aware of this, which
is I think this is a meme inspired by a game of notes,
right, which is a DAO for the chains as they die.
So speaking of which, it's not dead,
but there was something about Joe chain as well, right,
in the last few days.
That has completely blown over my head.
I just saw people arguing on Twitter about something.
Yeah.
I'm not sure what happened there.
I don't know if it's a joke or not.
But I want to say, Joe, I think it might be a joke.
I think Joe was joking that the Joe chain halted.
And then I want to say that he was joking
that he blamed Notional.
Like at the end of the tweet, he says, oh, and I
blamed Notional for this.
And Jacob was having absolutely none of it.
He came out swinging.
And then he put out a big old post
about how he has to take accusations like this seriously.
And I don't know.
But I don't know.
I have nothing to say.
Is there an actual, I mean, that website is gone.
Because it used to be like Just Joe or something like that.
Is that what it was?
JustJoe.app, I think.
Yeah, something like that.
That website's gone.
He says it's halting.
But I'm not sure.
I don't know.
It would be a weird thing to say.
Maybe they're just halting it before somebody IVCs it
and they get done for money laundering.
I thought that they had already IVC'd it.
I thought there was someone like Juno swap or something.
Oh, yeah.
We talked about this a little bit in Denver, right?
Yeah.
Maybe this guy, maybe his attorney and or accountant
kind of stepped in and be like, do you know exactly
what this means that you have a token in your name
with some sort of IVC value on it?
Do you want to know where and how many of those do you own?
Yeah.
Fuck.
That might have been a great position to be in.
Right.
But oh, there you go.
Rama's in the chat saying, Popmos
has like 60% of the supply state.
So he can hold it on his own.
So presumably, there's actually some kind of in-joke here
going on with Popmos.
OK.
One must assume I haven't done my research because I've not
been at the computer other than to it's not obviously related
to Cosmos, but we've been doing some stuff on Aptos, which
has been pretty stressful.
I've got to ask, is that a Hakko soldering iron on your desk?
You said that.
Yeah, it is.
Is it an FX8888?
That I don't know.
Temperature controlled.
It is definitely temperature controlled.
I'll get you a model number while we're sitting here.
It's a good one.
Because I just had a sudden moment to recognize.
You did.
It's a buggy reef, but I don't even know how long.
I was just like, that thing looks super cool.
Like a thing that I own and not so much enjoy, but I respect.
It is a FX888D23BY.
Is it sad that I got the model number?
I don't know the exact model number,
but I respect the shit out of that model number.
Oh my goodness.
Oh dear, it's a funny thing.
Funny thing, sleep deprivation.
So.
I mean, back to the Joe chain thing.
To be honest, even if we wore it out for two weeks,
we wouldn't give a shit about this topic anyway.
No, I mean, it is a chain to test out features.
I mean, at the end of the day, I think it basically
is a meme where the meme is that Reese wanted to get better
at doing chain development.
And so did a bunch of stuff on Joe chain
and use it as a learning platform and launched it as a joke.
And it's still alive.
And I don't know how much Reese is actually like super.
I don't know.
We've had Reese on the show before.
We could ask him again, are you still super jazzed
that Joe is a thing, or are you beginning to be like, ah.
Shit.
Yeah, exactly.
I think there was a lot of drama with it with Notional before,
because I think it was a fork of the Eve chain
that Notional was building.
So I think that might be where part of it's
coming from where, because of that drama,
they started winding it down.
Yeah, well, maybe.
I don't know, because Eve was just a fork of Juno
with YOLOed features in, basically.
Right, yes.
And.
The YOLOed features.
Well, yeah, it was basically like YOLOed a bunch of features.
And if the chain crashes or it's unstable,
well, it doesn't have the market cap of Juno, so who cares, right?
And then I think Reese was working for Notional,
and then he wasn't working for Notional,
and he was just like, oh, well, I've done.
I think he did a fair bit of the actual work,
and so he was just like, well, I'm just going to fork it.
And YOLO is Joe chain.
And then it was just like, oh, actually, well, you
can just work on Juno, and we can just instead,
YOLOed features onto a test net.
And then if it crashes, that's a test net.
And if they work, then we can just put them into production.
And that's another way of doing it.
And so that's, I think, basically what happened there.
But yeah, there seems to be an ongoing sort of beef
in some direction, a bidirectional beef in that area,
isn't there?
But it doesn't really seem worth getting into.
There was some-
I just said that there's an explanation of Joe chain
in the Read Me on GitHub.
And yeah, so I posted it in the chat.
You can read it.
It does have to do with Notional and the story behind how
Joe chain became a thing.
There was some cool-
I do like the-
I mean, we talked about this before,
about the idea of creating something
that can be a fuck around chain and try some new things
and something else that has no monetary structure to it.
It should never have been IPC.
Don't understand that piece.
But because I think one of the ones that I commented on
a little bit ago was like, Reese was building it
where you could only vote yes or no with veto.
So they got rid of no, and they got rid of abstain.
I was like, actually, that's a pretty good idea
for the Cosmos SDK.
I kind of dig it.
When you bring up proposals, you got to come correct, right?
So either it is or it's gone.
I kind of dig that.
And I was asking them to make it where
validators don't vote their stake, which is-
I'm sorry, don't vote non-voting shares.
To just make it-
To lower the quorum, just make people vote their own bags,
see what happens.
Kind of interested to see what would happen with that.
So anyway, I'm not sure if I really care
about the notional drama.
I think DeFray locked up.
I think he's reading through the readme right now.
I think he locked up.
Yeah, okay.
So yeah, your response was basically where I was like,
eh, what can we do?
Thanks for the heads up, Todd, on where to read about it.
Because that's kind of,
I don't know if it makes it better or worse to know.
Yeah.
I mean, TLDR is not worth getting into.
It will be, from having actually read it all,
it just seems like, can I actually,
do you know what, it's this.
Sorry for those on podcast players.
I just made a sort of flapping,
hysterical flapping gesture.
I think that's really the only answer though.
That is the takeaway.
It's like,
What you gonna do?
Yeah.
And Rama just said, hello, traveler in the chat.
I wonder if that's a,
so I don't know,
I'm gonna be the most scatty I probably will ever be.
But I wonder if that's a reference to Folk.
Have you ever seen any of the Limmy's show?
It's like, it's kind of,
it was sort of like a low budget Scottish comedy
in like the early 2010s.
And there's this great sketch where,
it's like one of those old phone into the TV adventure
things where they just basically try to keep the person
on the line so that it costs them money.
And there's this guy with like a really shit beard
on called Folk and Hoof.
People call him in,
he's like, hello, traveler.
It's really, this is a great sketch.
And it just has,
cause like a bunch of the sketches obviously
cause it's set in Scotland.
Like he's like, hello, traveler.
Would you like to come on an adventure?
And there's just like a beret,
like an irate Glaswegian mother being like,
my son called this line and he cost 30 pounds.
And then it just, it's just very funny.
It's very funny sketch.
Look it up, Limmy show, Folk and Hoof.
Look up Folk and Hoof.
That's a...
I feel like this is a case of where
Occam's razor is the right answer.
Noel pops in, says hi.
So Rama says, hello, traveler.
Cause Noel's in the U S right now.
I think that that is the actual answer.
I'm just saying what I want to say.
What can I tell you?
But that could also be it.
But your answer could also be it.
Let's see how contrived we can make.
Yeah.
So what other stuff?
So I know one other thing that I do know has happened
is that obviously Core One on June has expanded
and myself and Maximilian, the legend, the wombat,
has joined Core One.
And what we've been doing recently is some,
okay, I want to say like,
I was about to say like,
there's like a corporate away day where we're learning,
we're doing trust exercises and Wolf Contract is catching,
is catching like Jack's just falling back
and Wolf's catching him.
It's all that kind of stuff,
except there is a little element of that.
There's a little element of the Core One team
going away to a spa day to work out
like what the fuck to do with Juno for the next year.
And ha ha ha ha, no.
And there is actually like,
it's very, very well broadcast.
There is actually now like a mission statement for Juno,
which is kind of cool.
And the way you know this is because it is the Twitter header
of the Juno network on Twitter.
But that's, you know, better than nothing.
That's the start.
There's a mission statement,
which is Juno is the Interchain Dow Hub.
There you go.
Single line mission statement.
Okay.
And-
That's not only a mission statement,
that's like a statement of fact, right?
Well, it's a statement of fact.
It's a statement of what the chain's about.
It's a statement of all of it.
And then there's a prior,
there's a prioritization process going on.
And this is like, this is kind of the fun thing, I guess,
because from my perspective, I'm looking at this
and this is basically what the same type
of consulting stuff you used to do with,
like, you know, you go into like a fucking,
a fucking bulk paper sales company, right?
And they're like, we're getting murdered by people
that buy their paper in bulk on Amazon.
And you're like, okay, so I guess what you got to do is like,
hire a couple of developers, build a platform,
streamline some of your backend processes,
write some priorities for the next year,
and then, you know, refine your business practice.
And then, hey, maybe you'll be profitable again.
And that's kind of like, yeah.
Turns out the same stuff everywhere, right?
It's all just operational stuff
that's happening everywhere is the hard bit.
So away from all that, now that you're part of Core One,
tell me about like the dynamics.
Let us all into, bring us into the fold
of the Juneau Core One dynamics.
And what's it been as a new member
of a team that's existed for a long time
that I'm sure has a lot of built-in opinions
about direction and each other and those types of things?
Like have you felt like an outsider in a closed meeting
or have you felt like this group was waiting
for some new viewpoints at a Core One level?
Yeah, I think there's...
It's too spicy or not?
It's not too spicy, right?
Yeah, well, I guess I've been completely frank.
I think there's the thing of like,
you're never gonna fully be,
I think the idea that Core One is like,
is like basically fucking not true.
Okay.
It is in name only, but it's not
because it is recognized by people
as being the founding team, right?
Yeah, sure.
And the reality is like people like me and Max,
like we've been with Juneau,
like pretty much since the project started,
like the Discord had launched and stuff.
Yeah.
But we're not like,
but we're not like founders.
And there is fundamentally,
there is always going to be a power imbalance
as a result of that.
And I think unless everybody from the founders left
and it was all new people,
you would always have that dynamic.
And then you would probably have a similar dynamic
where you would have people who have been there longer.
And that's, this is why you have fixed terms in office, right?
This is why you have to have turnover.
This is why you have to have...
So at the moment we're just,
at the moment it's basically like a board,
albeit a slightly dysfunctional one,
or has historically been dysfunctional.
I think it's actually like all groups of people
who are trying to coordinate from a bike club to core one,
they are more dysfunctional on the inside
than the outside in some ways than you'd think.
And they are less dysfunctional on the inside
than they look on the outside in some ways.
And they're not usually in the ways you expect, right?
And it's always just interpersonal dynamics.
And it's just the same with any group of people you find,
that's just, you can put together six random people,
which is essentially what happened,
or five, sorry, five random people.
And that's how you get into a position
where obviously it's going to be,
there are going to be weird dynamics
between some people and stuff.
And I think the interesting thing about it, I guess,
is in its current form, it's more like a kind of
advisory board.
And I guess that's how I kind of see,
I kind of see our involvement and it's weird,
because I sort of see it from the company's perspective.
This is just a thing, we've been asked to do it.
We are there as a representative to do essentially
what we normally do when we do corporate consulting,
which is trying to push things along
and put structure around things and whatnot.
And then I guess the biggest within,
so there's two dynamics, there's one which is founders,
and then there's new people, which is me and Max.
And then there's a second dynamic,
which is devs and non-devs.
So there's sort of Demi, Max, and Jack,
who are more kind of developer-y
to different extents as well.
And then-
Wait, hold on, Max is a developer?
Who did I say?
Did I say Jack?
Although I might say Max, because they sound similar
in words, or they both have an A in them, and I'm tired.
Okay, but not Max.
Jack, Demi, and Jake.
Both are- Jack, I got it.
Oh, did I say Max instead of Jake?
I think so, anyway.
I'm so tired.
So, but those three are like primarily devs,
and then Block and Wolf are primarily
sort of marketing community-focused,
and then what's happened with new people coming in is like,
again, Max is kind of more marketing community.
And like, well, I guess the thing is actually,
Max has always been a big,
he's very good at like tokenomics and strategy
and all that kind of things.
He has like a really strong understanding,
but also like a really strong intuition
for how all of that works and should work.
So, which, you know, to be fair, like Wolf, I guess,
did a lot of the tokenomics and stuff like that.
So maybe that's the thing that Max and Wolf have in common.
So there's a few different, I guess, pockets of interests.
And then there's obviously like, you know,
obviously me and Jake,
like I fucking ripped the shit out of him all the time
for the DAOs thing.
We're like, obviously I think DAOs are important.
And like, I'm just not a maximum,
I'm not a maximalist about anything in my life, really.
You know what I mean?
I think they have a really useful use case
in a really specific set of circumstances,
which is exciting and interesting to talk about and work on.
But-
Not the solution for everything, right?
Yeah, right.
Same as blockchain, same as anything.
Yeah, right, right.
Yeah, there's very few things in life
that are black and white, good or bad,
or you should be maximalist about.
You know, even like you buy a fucking Korg Monopoly, right?
You're not gonna put it on every track you write.
At some point you get bored about synthesizer
and you're gonna be like,
I might need a different flavor now,
a different flavor of 80 synthesis.
Not the first acronym or the idea
that I would have used in that situation,
but I understand what you're saying.
I was just, I'm looking out of shot at a synthesizer.
And so for some reason I was reminded
of the excellent default first preset on the,
well, it's not really a preset,
it's kind of pre-presets,
but like the absolute stock Monopoly sound
that everybody sets up the first time they get hands on one.
I wish I owned one, but I totally,
A, can't afford one and can't justify affording one,
because I would just put it on this one sound
and be like, and then I get bored of it.
And I'd be like, why'd I spend $3,000 on a synthesizer
with one sound that I could just do with a plugin?
That's insane.
Are there any term limits on Core One now,
or is that, that's not gonna happen, or is it?
No, I think, well, I think it's gonna,
is it gonna just continue to grow as?
Yeah, I think it's kind of the opposite problem where like,
so one of the interesting things about the structure
of Core One for the beginning was about trying
to incentivize the people to stay around
and actually not rug Juno, essentially.
Yeah.
There is no incentive mechanism in place at present
of any kind for new people.
And it's not really clear how that would work either,
because long vestings and stuff,
and also like the tokenomics themselves,
like there's a lot of questions.
And there's also questions about like how you,
I mean, this is the same as the teams funding questions
that we've had in the past and stuff.
Like it's all part and parcel of the same thing,
which is that very easy to find the money to fund things
when prices are high, it's very hard to work out
how to fund things when prices are down.
And it's also, you're always kind of working around
the fact that you're pricing in risk
for the people involved.
So, but the idea that it can expand forever
is obviously not true.
And I guess at some point people will have to come and go.
And yeah, it will be interesting to see how that develops.
I mean, I think, I suspect it will end up being
something like a by-election where, you know,
if somebody secedes or is asked to secede,
then there's an election triggered for that place.
But I don't think we're also,
I don't think we're really in a sophisticated enough place
yet where we can sustain an actual functional election.
Like, I mean, elections are obviously popularity contest,
but they are even more so in this space, I think.
They're either a popularity contest
or they're nepotism, basically.
And, you know, let's be brutally honest about this.
Max is there, encore one now, because of popularity,
because he is incredibly strong advocate for the community,
is incredibly visible, is amazing at what he does.
And I'm there because of nepotism,
because I'm fundamentally well-known by,
not by members of the community, if anything,
the one reputation we have there is actually quite negative
because of Prop 16.
But, you know, obviously with the Validator team,
with the Dev team, with everybody around,
like we're very well-known for our contributions
as a company, and I'm very well-known
individually within the Juno thing.
But, yeah, are we even the right people to be encore?
Well, that's another story.
Yeah, it's an interesting, I guess it's like the thing of,
like, oh, everything we're doing right now
is just fucking throwing stuff at the wall
and seeing what sticks.
Like, we can put as much process around it as we want,
but that's still kind of where Core 1 is at,
and that's where Juno is at.
But I guess that's part of this, you know,
to take it back to the thing that we've decided,
which is that, you know, Juno is the Interchain DAO hub,
is to go like, Juno is a DAO,
DAODAO is the main blue chip on Juno,
take that as given, where do we go from there?
That's the decision.
That's the decision Core 1's made
insofar as like we have any real say
in kind of pointing to a direction.
And that's kind of, okay, cool, right?
What do we do with that information?
Right, right.
Like what, yeah, good point.
So is that what the decision was?
I don't know if I really heard that before.
So the Interchain DAO hub, meaning the other,
what about other applications they're trying to launch
and other types of things that are sitting on top of Juno?
Is it not about permissionless Cosmosm?
Well, I guess the point is that like,
permissionless Cosmosm isn't a differentiator,
but what is the differentiator for Juno
is the community that's built around it,
and it's the, I guess like the tooling
that has actually emerged on it,
which is primarily about,
so this is the kind of,
because this is a technical podcast,
it's mainly validators,
mainly developers that listen to this.
So I think when we talk about governance,
what we're really talking about
is how you manage incentive systems.
We're talking about voting,
we're talking about managing treasuries,
we're talking about, so at the moment,
I'll get onto this in a minute,
but like I'm writing some stuff for HALDAO
to essentially like secure the treasury,
it has a similar mechanism
to something like the Unity contract,
where there's an overrider sub-DAO,
there's like an overrider group of people
who can veto decisions,
essentially pull decisions back
where they involve moving large amounts of funds, right?
Yeah.
It's just a brief concept,
it needs some more development,
but when DAO have a similar thing
where you can propose a contract,
you can propose a thing in their DAO,
but you can't execute it,
and their developer multisig
has to actually hit the execute button.
So there's a whole bunch of quite interesting things
around that, which are really about
building organisational structures
in a trustless environment, right?
It's about nerds on the internet, right?
Organising nerds on the internet back to the thing.
And if it's, for me, the interesting thing
about all this experiment has always been
building incentive systems,
it's like, okay, cool, building incentive system,
you now need to manage the system that you've built.
Okay, you're gonna need a DAO,
it might be a DAO of five people,
it might be a DAO of three people.
Right. You're gonna need a DAO,
and the problem is the name DAO is kind of lame,
but at some point you quickly see
you need something like a DAO,
you need a multisig, you need a DAO,
and that tooling has to come from somewhere,
and DAODAO is just the best current DAO tooling anywhere.
Agreed. In crypto.
Yeah, agreed.
And so by definition,
it is the best blue chip on Juno.
Now, is it gonna pump anybody's bags?
Is it fuck?
So that is, that then,
but once you say, okay,
home of DAODAO, interchain DAO hub,
that is what Juno is, is community is DAOs.
Do ordinary people give a shit about DAOs?
Developers give a shit about DAOs?
People running large projects understand the value,
do ordinary people give a shit about them?
No, right.
So then the next thing becomes,
how can you make another project,
or how can you encourage the devs
that would wanna build with DAOs
and build interesting new synergetic products
to come and build on Juno
and build the thing that the average user
would give a shit about?
And maybe that average user
doesn't even wanna fucking hear the word DAO.
They don't give a fuck about DAO.
Doesn't matter, right?
That's just how the sausage is made.
But it just so happens that the thing they wanna use
has to have a DAO at its heart,
because of course it does.
Right.
And that was kind of like the whole thing with HAL.
It's like, we're obviously very close to DAODAO,
but we're close to a lot of other things
that we wanted to do,
and it just links them all together.
It's like NFTs and DAOs and posting stuff
and content and blogs and whatever.
It just all kind of goes like,
oh yeah, this is kind of the intersection
of all of these things result in,
you sign a multi-sig transaction and you post some content.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, there's other ways to think about it as well
from a developer perspective.
Like, if you wanna build a website,
arguably one of the best things you can use is Django,
which is a framework for Python programmers.
And the main reason to use Django
is because they have a lot of built-in tools
around database management, right?
And that was kind of the same way
in that the way you have to frame it,
the frame, the usefulness of it
isn't something you would think commonly.
You wouldn't think going to Django is the best thing offhand
like as an average developer
because of its database management.
And it's like admin panels, all that built-in stuff,
but that's the reality.
The reality is it's just that one level deeper
where once you have experience
and you've kind of hit these problems yourself,
you realize, oh, I actually don't wanna do any of this.
I can offload it over there.
That's the beauty.
Yeah, I mean, that's the kind of thing with it
is it's not so much like,
it's not constricting the framework of the thing you build.
It just gives you an API.
So you go, ah, I don't have to write a fucking DAO contract
so that our project can have a DAO.
I don't have to write a sub-DAO contract
so that I can write an escrow contract
that can protect the treasury of our DAO.
I don't have to, like, all these other things,
you can just go like, okay, well, there'll be a sub-DAO.
It will have a contract to dress.
So I can make this thing over here
that takes a contract as its admin,
and I can just write a contract with the assumption
that I have DAOed out, I have sub-DAOs,
I can figure that out later.
And it's that kind of stuff where you're trying
to actually administer how all of that works.
And again, it's also so early.
You're just like, so much of this is just,
it's still quite hypothetical.
To launch Howl, we have,
because it's completely controlled by a multi-sig DAO,
we had to just actually do
all of the contract deployments and all the code
and everything, like the uploads and everything via DAO.
And there is a moment where you are like,
okay, this is crazy fucking future technology.
We're literally just launching, managing software
via cryptographically signed transactions with ledgers.
And there's three of us in three different time zones
signing off on this to get it launched.
That's fucking nuts.
And then you get it launched,
and you're like, oh, that's really cool.
Okay, but yeah, nobody's actually gonna,
there isn't a mass market app that's gonna launch this way
or do this for fucking years.
Right.
Because we're just so early.
But I think that is the interesting question though,
is how you actually turn what is a really cool set
of tooling for nerds and developers
who want to build serious products
into something that serious developers look at.
And they go, oh fuck, I have to build there
because actually I don't really wanna fucking
manage this shit myself.
Yeah.
And more broadly speaking also,
this ties into the IBC thing because the more IBC tooling
you build around Juno and around Doudou
and around all this other stuff,
you can build on your own chain or whatever,
but it's also part of that.
So you asked, you said Serp,
how does this tie into the permissionless cosmology thing?
Well, the permissionless cosmology thing has always been
build your project on Juno,
spin up your own app chain later.
That's the app chain thesis, right?
So if you go, well, we're gonna be an incubator,
like the IBC maximalism thing comes quite naturally.
And again, most of these projects need Doudou
to manage how stuff kind of works.
Like that's something that we found,
building a non-trivial product.
And you go, okay, well, if we were gonna launch
the first version of it as we did, we launched it on Juno.
If that were wildly successful and we launched an app chain,
it's not like we would move the DAO.
We would want to probably just interact with it over IBC
from another chain.
Cause you've got all of your stuff
is kind of set up over there.
You're not gonna be like,
oh, I'm just gonna turn all that shit off.
It's kind of unlikely, is it?
So there's also like an element here where
by making one decision, you kind of go, okay, well,
it also means we have to work out the IBC middleware story.
We have to work out all of that side of things
to make that thing work better.
And again, it's like projecting forward
quite a period of time.
Cause it's just a long way away, you know?
Like whichever way you kind of look at it, I suppose.
But, and then like, I suppose other things fall out
of that like mesh security and stuff like that too,
where you're just like, again, it's about how do you,
how do you ensure that value is coming back to Juno
as an incubator, I suppose.
And it's not fully worked out.
Like nothing is at this point.
But yeah.
I don't know.
Is there anybody on the Core One team that's like singly,
or is there a group that's singly focused on monetization?
On monetization of the Juno token?
Of monetization of the mission.
Like there's a lot, like everything we just talked about,
and also most of these DAOs are about like spending.
Like they're all about, you know, growth funds
or this or that and finding ways to be able
to dump community tokens and, you know,
basically paying for users, other types of things.
But like that example there,
is there anybody responsible to say,
what do we, it seems like sometimes we build just to build,
and we don't have a singular vision
in terms of who wants to buy.
Will that be chains within the Cosmos,
or like you said, maybe things that are outside
that might come forward?
Like is anybody thinking that way to say,
okay, we have this great tooling.
How do we make sure that we're aligning
all of these decisions and this backlog
of cool things that we can do
to someone who's willing to pay for it?
I don't think that exists currently.
Yeah.
I think it's probably, well, I think it's,
there are, it's certainly something
that Max advocates for, and has always advocated for.
So I think historically, I don't think I would argue
that that's the thing that was thought about.
I think it's a build it and they'll come attitude.
Which is just crypto has investors, it doesn't have users.
It's back to the thing we always talk about
on this podcast.
Until crypto has users, or not even crypto,
until interchain applications with use cases
have users and not investors, that is moot.
And really it's that thing of, well,
it's like having 10 or 15 decent quality protocols
that are all bringing in a small amount
of consistent user base and liquidity.
Like the idea of like, these crazy pump and dumps and stuff,
that's just not how the future is gonna be.
The most useful thing crypto can do is microtransactions.
Like it's just gonna be like 100,000 users,
200,000 users transacting very small amounts,
and then having to swap in and out of the native token.
That's to me, that's really, that seems like
one of the most obvious things that you can do with crypto.
And that's why I'm so like, you need to find use cases
that are not like, that are just bankable.
They just solve a problem for people,
and they just interact with it
and generate a small fee each time.
And it's not gas fees, because that shit doesn't scale.
It's like people actually spending money
into an economic mechanism that has some kind of go around.
Like, you know, yeah, I don't think, I think, like I say,
I think Howell is like a proof of concept more than like,
like it's a thought experiment fleshed out,
put out into the wild, but it has all of the hallmarks
of what I personally believe you need to do to do that thing,
which is have a internal logic behind a cashflow,
have a link back out to the sustaining platform,
have like those incentive feeds in it and stuff,
and have like a clear user, like I want to do X,
I can do it here, here's how I do it.
You know, I can bring in my NFT from over here,
I can do, you know, it's all of those things
like kind of in synergy, and then, oh,
and Dowdow is required to do this and blah, blah, blah.
Right.
That's, it's like a, to me anyway,
maybe it looks incoherent to other people,
but I think it's a coherent product picture.
And I think it's part, I use the example over and over
and again, not because it's something that obviously
is near and dear to my heart,
having spent a lot of time working on it,
but I think because that's the kind of protocol
we need to build around Dowdow is try and find,
basically find ideas like that until one of them sticks,
like something that works synergistically
with this like best in class Dowdow tooling
that brings users and then market the shit out of it.
That's kind of my perspective, but then, you know,
I'm a product, you know, I've come up from like
the product engineering style of like the last 10 years
of engineering where everybody's just like,
oh, it's not about being smart,
it's about finding the right product
and market fit and shit, you know,
and just getting told that, you know,
you don't have to use functional programming.
It's not, it doesn't matter that it's better,
just write it in JavaScript, it's fine.
Just get it done.
Just get it done, just ship it, it's fine.
Then a year later, it's just like, it's falling over,
it's fine.
It's fine, we can rewrite it.
It's on fire, you've got to rewrite it, it's fine.
That's right.
I think the one thing we're really missing right now,
like I was using HAL for a little bit, right?
But I made the poor choice of using my ledger wallet
as my HAL wallet.
And so everything I had to do, I had to sign, right?
And that sucked.
I think that one thing we need to figure out some method for
is like giving a browser some form of like auth Z access
where the browser has a certain amount
that it can use as like discretionary spending.
So you can still hit, you know, just send,
and it doesn't require you to actually like double click
to confirm or to hit the ledger or something.
I feel like there has to be some way of bridging that gap
of like some types of transactions
you're giving the browser to just do.
Like maybe not even just a transaction,
but maybe like, I don't know.
I don't know.
That's the only thing I think of right now is my example.
We were from HAL data proof of concepts
and like that where you essentially,
you basically pre-auth an escrow for small amount of funds.
So again, it's the microtransaction use case.
It's gas fees use case.
You basically just like, oh, boom, okay.
Here's like a third of a Juno done.
And then when you then interact with it again,
you're basically interacting from memory of how it's
something like this, you then interact with that contract.
So it's kind of just like, okay, boom, okay.
Oh, it's just done the thing.
Okay, cool.
And I think you probably still need to go,
I think the only thing is you probably still need to go
through a ledger because you had to sign
the transaction from memory.
But I can't remember, like it was pretty smooth.
So maybe it was actually some kind of switcheroo involved.
It's so long ago.
This was like, I don't know, last summer, maybe earlier.
They just showed something because they were just like
mucking around with like BB posts basically.
And they were like, oh, okay, you could do this.
That's pretty cool.
The code's still on GitHub somewhere.
Comma if it's in Howl's GitHub or if it's in Weaver's GitHub.
I mean, that's a cool idea.
You sometimes do that when you do cloud things
where you prepay, let's say $100 or whatever.
And then they suck that dry as you put server costs up.
It's the same idea.
That's how a cache works, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, that's how a cache works.
Yeah, exactly.
I passed 10th in there, didn't I?
Well, yeah, I guess, yeah.
But I think that type of use case is absolutely necessary.
I think that there is too much expectation
that in the crypto space in general,
that every action you take requires like a full execution.
Like it's objectively true that that is a bad user experience.
There's a reason why in most like settings,
things you change,
they only take it like at the very end or whatever,
or you don't even have to hit accept for it
because people don't want to have to hit that many buttons.
That's why there's such an argument of like iPhone
versus Android, which one's easier based off of how many
like interactions it takes to, I don't know,
open up Google Maps or something, right?
So like that is just such a small thing that like,
obviously it makes sense that each transaction
or each interaction requires a full acceptance
because, you know, potentially some people have, you know,
hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars
in their account.
They don't want to suck it dry,
but there's gotta be an in-between.
There's gotta be an in-between.
Yeah, probably.
I mean, I guess it all comes back to like,
what is an account?
What are the levels of escalation that are required to do?
I mean, if you have like, so like,
maybe a good example is like, if you have a bank account,
you can have like a, I don't know what you guys call it
in the US, checking account, whatever you have,
like you basically can have like a cash card,
which is like a debit card,
and then you can have like a credit card.
And then, you know, and actually,
and also every bank account actually has a limit as well.
It's just that it's usually quite relatively high.
So I don't know, probably like a couple of thousand dollars.
I don't know how many thousand pounds or dollars it is
before your bank calls you up and goes,
we've blocked this transaction.
You need to authorize it properly,
but it's a few thousand dollars, isn't it?
If you've ever had to try and buy a car or something,
I feel like that's the sort of thing where you need to do
like a bank transfer in branch or something like that.
So yeah, there's like, even within traditional banking,
there is like an implicit escalation or contactless, right?
Contactless, it used to be 25 pounds
and then they upped it to a hundred, I think,
but most banks allow you to set a level
you're happy with against your card.
So you can, again, you actually have user controls there
over what is effectively what you're describing short-sleeve.
Like if it's above 50, if it's above 50 pounds,
then you can actually have a user control
and then if it's below 50 pounds,
then you've got to sign the transaction.
If it's below whatever, but I mean, the flip side of that
is like, would you want to be the person
who implemented that bit of code?
If it's below X amount of X denomination,
then that would need one hell of an audit.
Yeah, well, Andrew, I think we'd also need
some level of notification system at that point.
Right now, if I send a transaction on Kepler,
there needs to be some sort of aggregate of,
okay, so I've got this thing set up so that it,
so I'm thinking like I can just hit go
and it'll take out one June or whatever.
But if something doesn't happen,
then I can be notified somehow.
Cause that I think there should be some level of like,
not at central location,
but there should be like maybe built into wallets.
But that's also something I've been thinking about
with the whole Venmo thing I've been thinking about building
where like, if someone sends you a request,
then like you need to be able to find out how somehow
without actually creating like a bot
that monitors the chain.
But God, user experiences are so difficult.
That's why I'm a backend engineer.
Well, I think you've also hit on something,
which is like at the end of the,
you can't stay away.
Welcome, welcome.
Where are you?
Okay, at the end of the day,
like most successful like use cases
that use the interchange that aren't,
so the DALS is an interesting one, right?
Because it could literally be a group of nerds
on the internet who are completely across jurisdictions
and will never meet each other, right?
It's like a pure,
you can have like totally pure online interactions
that are completely novel,
that just didn't exist 10 years ago,
didn't exist 15 years ago.
Well, did exist because they were IRC channels back then,
but like they have a new expression, right?
But then there's all these other use cases
where it's just like, oh,
it's basically a web two company,
but they, it would make more sense to model their business
as an incentive model, like you're describing, like Venmo.
Like the thing that Peter Sunday did after Pirate Bay,
Flatter, where it's micro payments to content,
where you just hit a little micro payment button
on a piece of content you liked on the internet,
it was just a little in bed.
It didn't work because the banks,
it's really, really expensive to do micro payments,
but that is an amazing crypto use case right there
and way ahead of his time.
Flatter would work as crypto,
but do you give a shit that it's a blockchain?
No, that's just, that is just how it's implemented.
The majority of that code base
is a web server serving the embed
and then a web socket notification.
So it's kind of like to your point where you're like,
okay, well, we need notifications
when you need this other stuff.
You're like, well, a lot of these actually
potentially quite successful use cases,
which can now be built with blockchain
that couldn't have been built 10 years ago,
a lot of them will be not blockchain for their users.
They won't see it as blockchain.
And the actual blockchain component,
that maybe there's a smart contract there somewhere,
but the majority of their stack will also not be blockchain.
It will be a web socket client.
It will be a web server serving an embed.
It will be some kind of streaming store
just reconciling the messages.
But at some point there's a smart contract in there,
but who gives a shit?
This is why I'm just not,
again, I'm not shitty about central bank digital currencies
for the same reason, because it's like,
who gives a shit what the micro payments in?
The interesting thing is the blockchain, right?
Is the technology and maybe IBC as well.
Well, yeah, I mean, it's very rare
that I learned that a certain app that I'm using
has a specific database.
And I'm like, wow, if I'm using Lyft and I find,
well, okay, if I'm using Lyft and I find out
it's running on like MongoDB, I'll be a little surprised.
I'd be like, well, I think it's scaled pretty well.
All right, well done.
Or SQLite or something.
But like that's such a thing.
Like if I hear- SQLite3, you kidding?
Exactly.
Yeah, if I hear things on Postgres,
I'm like, I don't care.
And it should be the same thing with blockchain.
It should be, I don't care, it's just the database.
Like, yeah, it enables all sorts of cool things,
but for the end user, do not care.
I do not care.
Well, I felt that way about challenger banks.
Like, so I did a lot of stuff on like data engineering.
Like I've had a lot of my backgrounds
and that sort of stuff.
Like streaming data stores where you can,
you can basically just mash through
millions of transactions a second
and then just store them all in Cassandra
and then happy days.
Like it's so much faster than any other database technology.
And it's just like, it's magic.
If you ever have to deal with that kind of volume,
you're like, oh my God, this is really quick.
And you get like snappy finality and everything
and it settles and it's what the fuck?
Like, and you're like, you see how slow like, you know,
banks were like 10 years ago at this stuff.
And then like things like Monzo, like a challenger bank,
you're like, fuck, it's really, the UX is great.
Like you literally pay somebody
and their phone pings next to you.
It's like you've been paid
and the transaction settled and you're like,
and you go like, look at their job ads
and you're like fucking Apache Kafka, Apache Cassandra.
And you're like, like you say,
it's one of those times where you're like,
I am actually a little bit impressed
at your technology stack in 2014 or whatever that was.
Whereas now if you were like,
I'm building a challenger bank, people would be like,
oh, right, so you can use a streaming store
and a database, right?
Yeah, of course you are.
Because there is, that is the correct way to build this thing.
And like, maybe in 10 years, that would be the case.
It'd be like, we're building this thing.
Oh, is that a ledger underneath it?
Yeah, yeah, of course it's a ledger, duh.
Exactly, yeah, we're just not quite to that point yet.
But that's the thing, right?
It's like, there's so many tech questions and tech answers
and a lot of us are so enthusiastic
that we're willing to like squint away
the shitty user experience side of things.
Like using a ledger, I like my ledger.
Like it's got cool stickers on it and stuff.
Like, come on now.
But not for everything.
Let's be real.
One of the things you can say is the password is 0000.
Yeah, but let's be real.
Most people don't wanna spend $180 or whatever I spent
on my Ledger Nano X just to hold crypto.
Like I don't have $180 wallet for my credit cards and stuff.
And like, I guarantee you my credit limit in those
and that wallet is higher than all the crypto I have.
So it's like, there's so many user experiences.
That's only because the bear market is not your fault,
sure as hell, you are better than that.
You are better than that.
Like I hate to tell you I'm your friend,
but it's not your fault.
Yeah, exactly.
But also like you go to a store
and you bust out your wallet one time at the very end,
right, you bust out one time versus,
oh, I wanna go make a swap on Osmosis.
Let's transfer the Juno.
So that's one transaction just to do IBC over.
Let's do the swap and then let's perhaps IBC out the Atom
and then send it to Coinbase.
So four transactions to like get money out or something.
Right?
It's just a completely different thing.
Would you remember like early days,
no, not super early days, but early days of Bitcoin
when you could just transfer Bitcoin
via the mobile app with the QR codes?
Like you created a wallet on green wallets
or something like that and you were like,
you showed somebody a thing, you approved it
and it was like, bam.
Like friend, friend, oh, the show.
I'm pretty sure this was actually Ben Davis,
friend of the show.
So I mentioned Monzo earlier, Challenger Bank,
kind of archetypal making the UX and stuff good.
Everything went contactless with them straight away.
It was just like tap, you paid, happy days.
Amazing.
One of the founders was a Bitcoin maxi.
It was like a stealth Bitcoin maxi.
And like the first time I used Monzo,
I was like, this is the first time I've used a bank
where it feels like that.
Cause obviously the problem with Bitcoin
is that it's super slick until you're like,
oh, the money hasn't arrived yet.
And it's like, even in 2011, 2012, it was like,
oh yeah, it needs like eight, what's it called?
Like confirmations.
Oh, okay.
It's so close to perfect.
But it turned out that there were people watching that
and were like, wow, this is really good,
except that what people want to see is sub second finality.
And they went, shit, I can do that with Patrick Cassandra.
Like, well, he's just give people a QR code
and they will fucking sign up in droves.
Okay, cool.
I'm going to go get our bank license.
They did it.
That bank is Monzo.
It's a million dollar business.
That's funny.
And like, yeah, it turned out that guy's,
I'm pretty sure he's like a stealth Bitcoin maxier,
something like that.
I was having this conversation with somebody
and they were like, I'm pretty sure it was Ben Davis,
friend of the show who like went and did the research
and was like, oh yeah, they totally were.
It's like, oh yeah.
There you go.
Makes sense.
So you're right.
Like UX is everything, man.
Going back to the Dow thing,
it's exactly what I was trying to say before is like,
it's tough to just randomly keep adding shit
until you have a clear direction on some of these UX pieces.
And I think it's easier for Dow Dow
than it is for Howell.
Howell from a consumer perspective,
you have a lot of voices,
but Dow Dow really is like, you're really,
I mean, you're marketing to consumers,
like individuals as well.
You're primarily marketing to chains or organizations
or other types of larger groups that already have a,
they have a management problem, right?
They have an organization and communication
and voting problem.
And I think even spending some time to identify
who those possibly could be,
whether they're in the cosmos or out,
and then coming up with a list of like,
how do you guys deal with this?
What are the challenges?
Like a little bit of ideation there
and then come back and build a roadmap towards that.
I do think that if you just keep adding shit,
like Jake and I were talking about this actually
at ETHNR a little bit is like,
is there's so much there and it's so wide open
that people, it makes it very difficult
to take this massive amount of functionality
and apply it to the problems that they have.
And like, how do you, he's like,
yeah, we're gonna create like a Dow how-to
and those types of things.
I mean, that's somewhat beneficial,
but like some repeatable patterns, right?
And actually coming back to Schulte's Drupal example,
really what this is is almost like Drupal themes.
Like you need like Dow-Dow themes.
You need to have pre-built kind of themes
for here's a large organization has a board problem.
Here's an individual who wants to figure out voting for-
You need Clippy.
You need Clippy for like a condo.
You make Jake is like, it made Jake is like Clippy.
It looks like he's- For like a condo association, right?
The other thing I thought about this too is like,
I was talking to the guys from Loyal.
We had Mike Waters, he's been on like,
or Hi-Wall, I forget what his actual name is,
but Mike's been on, he's been in the chat here
and like they're building like a,
they're building a structure for loyalty rewards
that eventually might have value
and you can like buy from multiple sites
and then use those loyalty rewards across multiple sites.
So right now they're not doing any of that.
Like they have it where each individual site,
if you buy something out of an individual site,
you get these Loyal, you get LYL behind the scenes.
And so they're actually creating wallets behind the scenes
on the API side.
So from the end user perspective,
all they have is a login to a website, right?
For the piece.
Then behind the scenes,
they're actually creating a mnemonic behind the scenes.
They are applying those Loyals after like 31 days
to get outside the return period
because they can't pull them out.
And then it sits in the wallet.
Then downstream, so what they're doing is like,
as people are buying this stuff,
or as they're buying off these e-comm sites,
they're basically creating these hidden wallets
of this stuff.
So if you go back to the site and see you have them,
you can apply them, you can use those tokens or discount.
And the next time you purchase something, et cetera, et
cetera.
And then downstream, what they're like thinking about is
like, as this grows, how do we turn this web two
slash web two problem that has a web three component
to it today, but it's hidden into something that maybe
now you can use them across site
and you can build a market around them
and like all those other types of things.
And so they're kind of like stealth mode
where people are using this, but they're not really sure.
Like this same thing, that same idea,
you could apply to Doudou.
Like I don't need a wallet.
Like the wallet piece is maybe for me,
cause I'm an experienced user.
But if I want to build a condo association that has,
everybody just logs in with their Gmail account
or whatever the hell it is, but behind the scenes,
you're creating mnemonics and you have it in Doudou
and like there's voting there and there's like the structure
and I can present that in a way that is extremely easy
for the user.
Totally works.
Like, and then maybe down the stream,
maybe those individuals can, you know,
they're only Doudou tokens, right?
So they can get those mnemonics,
they can do other things with them or they can,
I don't know, whatever the hell they want to do.
But like, this is a good web,
like there's might be opportunities to,
cause this user experience piece
that Shultze is talking about is exactly right.
Like how do you get everybody who's going to use that
into this web three world or walk around with ledgers
to vote on stuff?
Like maybe that never happens, but maybe in some pieces,
the technology can still be extremely useful,
even though we might have to have a bridge, you know,
before people are actually walking around with a ledger
attached to their belt buckle.
Everything you described then just sounded like
custodial keys, right?
Yeah, it's exactly what it is.
Yeah, it's totally what it is.
I was just like the regulation alarm.
It's just like, I'm shocked.
Why, I'm talking about Doudou, Doudou tokens have no value.
There's no regulation here.
There's no securities here.
Same thing in, same thing I was talking about with Loyal.
Like those things are just, there's custodial keys
I'm just using as a function to build it.
But if you literally, if you sit around until that world
gets here, we're all long gone.
Like it's like that, like to be able to use it like as a,
as what, as like the Fortune 5 organization is gonna use it
with shareholders to be able to vote on a Dow,
like for board members through, with a ledger,
like is that gonna happen in our lifetimes?
Like, I don't know.
Yeah, I forgot about it.
No, but see, fine, one comment and you build up.
Rock master.
You made him upset.
It's actually, it's actually cold as shit out here.
Where are you?
Streets of Tampa.
I'm like outside, I'm at a cafe entrance.
So it's like people like walking in and out,
but the music's inside.
So I couldn't really talk in there.
So it's like, you know, fucking zero degrees out here.
And yeah, interesting.
Somehow it's better with the Australian shoved
in zero degree.
Usually you're coming from like a beach or something.
Yeah, this is not a safari.
He looks really uncomfortable.
He does, I know.
Like really uncomfortable.
Yeah, I'm literally gonna bail in a second.
I just like get in the way of someone's pram.
They're like, I might get this fucking thing around you.
So yeah, I don't know.
I might go back to Union Station and explode.
You're training out today or what are you training out?
Trains at seven to Chicago.
Yeah.
Oh, Chicago, neat.
Yeah, going to Chicago
and then spend a few days in Chicago
and then go to New Orleans
and then go along that Southern area back over to LA.
Are you training down to New Orleans or are you flying?
I got an Amtrak pass, man.
Just like ripping on trains everywhere.
I'm so jealous.
I really want to do the Southern Chief.
Yeah, I'm gonna be on it.
So no sleeper.
I'm sick of that fucking thing.
Oh, you're missing, you're not in sleep.
The sleep is fucking awesome.
Sleeper is like literally like a leg,
like from Denver to Chicago, a sleep is like 1600 bucks.
Yeah, you need to put that shit away in advance.
It's not that expensive, it's not too bad.
I almost went on the,
so I almost went on the National Parks
vacation tour on Amtrak, which is like-
Oh, where you do the glacier builder?
Yeah, you go like, it's all the National Parks
on the western side, in the west.
And-
That's basically where the National Parks are.
Yeah, but it was like five and a half grand
at short notice, which is like-
Oh, that's expensive.
I don't know if the price has gone up,
that's a fucking lot more than I paid
to buy a few Amtrak passes.
Well, it was 500 bucks for a 10 segment pass,
but it was like five and a half grand for this nine days.
And I was like, hmm, yeah, I'm not baller, so fuck that.
I mean, the sad thing is you are missing probably,
I've obviously not done the other ones,
I'm sure they're really fucking sick
and I'm totally jealous, but like the Zephyr
to California from Denver is like fucking cool.
That's what I'm getting on just soon.
Yeah.
Wait, you go to California first?
I thought you just said you were going to Chicago.
No, no, but it's the Zephyr line.
Well, I'm not coming from California though.
It's like Denver to-
Yeah, I'm saying if you go through the Rockies,
go the other way, cause that's really fucking cool.
Yes, I'm not sure what the line's called,
but there's another line that's just further south
that goes all the way back across.
Yeah, the Southern Chief one.
Yeah, so I hope it goes to Austin.
I want to go at least near Austin.
So I want to go to Austin on the way back,
but I'm really looking forward
to getting some fucking barbecue, man.
You're going to go up the West coast from LA?
No, so I'm flying out of LA.
Yeah.
Well, that's the train chat segment of the show.
Completely.
I'm very, very jealous.
I think I can go now cause I'm freezing my ass off.
Well, enjoy the observation car.
Yeah, so I hear the cafe is like not popular,
but it's the one with the, it's got like the glass roof.
Yeah, that's the place to be.
Also, if it's really quiet,
quite often the train guard will hang out there.
And if they like know the line really well,
like we, a couple of times the train guard was just like,
Hey, do you want to know the history of this place?
And you're like, sure.
Yeah, why not?
And they just like told stories.
And it was like, oh, it's actually quite,
you're actually quite knowledgeable.
They're like, yeah, I've been fucking,
I'm a train guard on this train for 10 years.
And I really fucking like local history and trains.
Go figure.
And you're like, yep, okay, that, that,
that does check out.
That does check out.
They're like, I can give you a reading list if you like.
And you're like, okay, that's where I jump off.
I'm actually not worried about the,
about the Utah train system, but thank you very much.
That is.
So before I bail here,
I was, I was photobombing people at East Denver.
And I got in one day with funky.
So I think thanks funky.
I'll treasure that photo bomb always as well.
So anyway, guys, take it easy.
I'm going to go get in some warm area
before I fucking die.
Safe travels, dude.
Cool. Have fun.
Thanks for stopping in.
See you.
So hanging out.