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Yens means like you ones, you ins.

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It's like, hey, what are you guys doing?

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No, no, no, in Pittsburgh, in Pittsburgh, it's,

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hey, what are yens doing in that?

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That's how it goes.

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["Game of Nerds"]

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Welcome to Game of Nerds,

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a weekly podcast on the cosmos

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from independent validator teams.

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["Game of Nerds"]

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Hello, welcome to Game of Nerds,

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a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent

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and very tired and somewhat hangover validator teams.

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I think these lads are still recovering from,

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right, you did some boozing in East Denver

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and it's like at Altitude or something.

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And all I saw in the group chat

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was complaints about hangovers.

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That's basically the whole,

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that's basically the whole truth.

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It was just like, I was like, how's it going?

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And there was, I think I saw it,

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I got a picture sent of like short C in one morning,

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having like one that like a kind of hangover smoothie

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and Noel was like asleep on the edge of the sofa.

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And I was like, okay, so everybody's hungover.

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That's kind of the vibe I'm getting from East Denver.

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So how are the talks?

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Crickets.

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Did make it.

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Did make it.

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Well, that was like 11 in the morning too.

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That was a hangover picture

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like 11 in the morning where we're just like,

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I know.

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Well, you know the rules.

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It's gonna be bad till three in the evening, right?

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That's the, you know stuff is serious

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if it goes past three in the afternoon,

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but other than that, everything's fair game.

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The first two days felt like a week.

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Like, cause I think, I don't know if it was the first night,

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but the Defun guys came over at like midnight

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or 1230 one night.

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We drank till like 330 and just in our house.

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And then next thing I know,

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it felt like it was four days later

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and that just kind of continued.

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But yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

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And then Noel, I think, I think we were together

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for five days.

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I think I probably, the total time we were actually together

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with him and I both being awake at the same time

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was like maybe a day and a half.

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Just very crazy, just jet lagged or did he just?

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He was really jet lagged.

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Yeah.

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Noel doing Noel.

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No, no, he was really jet lagged.

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We were up late, which I think was early for him.

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And then, and then he would go, you know,

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it was three or something, go to bed.

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And then, then I think one time we were out,

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we were out somewhere and it was like 3 PM.

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And all I get is that we all get a DM like,

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how does the coffee machine work?

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It was like 330.

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It's like perfect.

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I was like, good morning.

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I'll worry it.

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Well, that was the day that he went to the rave, right?

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I guess there was a- Oh, that's right, I forget about that.

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Yep.

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So we all went to the, I think at the Cosmos Peak event,

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I want to say.

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And after a couple hours, Usurper and I were like,

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all right, well, I think it's about time to take off,

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whatever.

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Where's Noel?

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We couldn't find him.

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We did a couple of rounds around the bar,

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couldn't find him anywhere.

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And it's like, ah, he must have taken off already.

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So we take off.

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And then that morning at like two in the morning,

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he texts all of us and he's like,

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hey, what's the code to the house?

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Or three in the morning? He's locked out.

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Yeah.

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But semi-fortunately, the lock to the house

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was behind a screen.

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So he just like put his hand through the loose screen

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and then locked it and walked in.

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And then for the rest of the trip,

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he was all paranoid about there not being a lock on the house

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because there wasn't a lock on that house.

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There was literally no-

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Wow, that's fucked up.

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Yep.

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All our servers in danger.

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That's kind of like, we were at a conference last year

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and some guys at the table next to us were like,

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so what do you guys do?

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And I was like, get the fuck out of here.

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We need to get the fuck out of here.

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And then Jake just gets up and it's like,

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yeah, we're here for a crypto conference.

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And I was like, okay, cool.

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Great, we're gonna get murdered in our sleep.

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He's like, it's fine.

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You're super paranoid.

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I was like, Jake, we're within sight of where we're staying.

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We now have to decide whether we're either gonna walk

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to the door of the place where we're staying

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or we go in a completely different direction

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purely to throw these guys off.

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And he's like, you're overreacting.

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Walk straight to the door.

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It's like, here we are.

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And it's like, okay, we're definitely getting murdered now.

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We're definitely getting murdered.

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And everybody was super chill about it.

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And then when we were upstairs and everybody else was like,

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oh shit, actually, phrase right.

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We need to wipe our ledgers.

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Oh yeah, maybe.

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Like just on the off charts,

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the lads with hammers are coming.

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And I was like, well, it's not even like we've got much.

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Well, most of us, it's not even like we've got much money.

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So it's just like.

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Yeah, you don't have to worry about that anymore, right?

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They're like, oh.

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I just benefit a bear market, right?

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Yeah.

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You can bust in your house and what's gonna happen, right?

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Right.

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They feel bad for us.

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Yeah, they're like.

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You can have some shit coins.

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Ah, they're Cosmos validators.

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I can send you four million Chihuahua,

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but that's all I got.

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I can't even send you servers anymore.

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Yeah, exactly.

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You could clean me out of a few Gino

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but it's gonna be like 50 bucks.

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Oh, they're Cosmos validators.

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Go pick on someone else.

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Yeah, I always find like there's kind of like rave type

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things at like a conference or a bit of a weird vibe.

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And doubly so at a crypto conference.

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You're just like, yeah, I was kind of just happy being

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at a bar actually because I'm already just,

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it's not happening dance floor other than ironically.

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It's like a wedding dance floor at best, but you know.

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Wedding dance floor?

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Yeah, do you know what I mean?

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Like a wedding where it was like.

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Oh yeah, yeah.

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Lots and lots and lots of love.

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Well, and this was hosted by the Malady NFTs, I guess.

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It's a Malady NFT rave.

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What's a Malady NFT?

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I'm not sure what a Malady is, but it's an NFT.

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Let's see if we can find it.

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I hope it's not a song.

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Tell me that doesn't sound just insane levels of awkward.

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It sounds quite awkward.

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Like I'll be honest.

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I'm not sure I could ever show my face in public

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if I said that I owned something like a Malady NFT.

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That's so funny.

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Maybe it's because I'm a boomer

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and I don't understand what's cool anymore,

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but then that has always been true.

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So that's also fine.

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So in conclusion then, ETH Denver basically

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excuse for a piss up, everything else secondary.

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Yeah, yeah, I think so.

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Yeah, the Cosmos stuff.

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There was a lot of Cosmos stuff before I think we got there,

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which it seems to be like recurring thing

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where like ETH Denver gets announced

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and then nothing happens in the Cosmos

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and then I already have plans and then,

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oh shit, here's five days beforehand

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where all these things happen.

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Like it's usually last minute

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or at least it seems like it's last minute, I don't know.

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And so we saw some of that.

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Got to see like there's some couple Juno events

193
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which are good and like the Dadao thing that Jake threw on.

194
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That was pretty good.

195
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There was the, was it shared security summit?

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Is that what it was called?

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Shared security summit.

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I missed some of that.

199
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These guys were there in the morning.

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I was there in the afternoon, which was good.

201
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I got to meet the skip guys, which was nice.

202
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And there's a lot of like modular blockchain talk

203
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in the afternoon.

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It was like over and over,

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but there were some good topics in there.

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And yeah, I mean, I was just kind of looking

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for people who either knew or were like reaching out too.

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You know what I mean?

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So that was pretty good.

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We went to an Aptos thing on Saturday.

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I didn't even make it to ETH Denver.

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Literally, I didn't even make it to one single thing.

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It was like everything else.

214
00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,240
Yeah, I didn't go to one thing.

215
00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:44,800
Yeah, I mean, I didn't,

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00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,880
guys I want to kind of walk through at least like the,

217
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,560
I usually like walking through the swag booths.

218
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:49,400
You know what I mean?

219
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:50,480
Like just seeing what's around there.

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00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:51,820
And these guys were like, it was a waste of time.

221
00:06:51,820 --> 00:06:54,480
So I didn't even make it over that.

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00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,440
So a few good after night party things and you know,

223
00:06:58,440 --> 00:06:59,560
honestly it was worthwhile.

224
00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,140
It was worth going just to hang out with the,

225
00:07:02,140 --> 00:07:03,880
gave me notes crew plus extended friends

226
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:05,880
and family type of thing.

227
00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,560
And then we took a couple of days out of Denver,

228
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little altitude sickness type stuff and you know, back home.

229
00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:14,600
A little bit of altitude sickness.

230
00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,880
It's a couple of beers, bit of altitude sickness.

231
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,320
Oh, I can't understand this though.

232
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,560
So altitude sickness this morning.

233
00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,120
Lots of mix of things.

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00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:22,960
It's definitely what's happened.

235
00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,920
Like the one person who hasn't drunk is like, huh, what?

236
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:27,320
Yeah, so I wish you were there.

237
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,120
Would have been nice to get the four of us together next time.

238
00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,360
But they have the- Good reasons.

239
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,080
They talk about that on the train, you know,

240
00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,640
when you take the train from Denver to California IA,

241
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,400
they talk about the drink.

242
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,040
They were there like, don't have a,

243
00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:42,800
unless you want the- Oh yeah.

244
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,200
The Zephyr, they have the Rocky cocktail or something.

245
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:47,640
They're like, don't have a drink

246
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,800
when the train is passing through the high pass

247
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,120
because you'll get smashed off one drink

248
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:53,920
and you have a right old headache by the time you get there.

249
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:55,160
Really?

250
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:56,000
We were going with a couple days.

251
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,080
The train tumble is at 8,000 feet, something like that?

252
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,800
Or is it like, it's a really rememberable number,

253
00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:02,760
which I haven't remembered.

254
00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,080
It's either like 6,600 feet roughly,

255
00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,440
or it's 8,800 feet, the tunnel.

256
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,080
We were at 10,000 feet.

257
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,440
Yeah, it's as many as 8,000 feet then,

258
00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,320
because you come out of the tunnel

259
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,760
from the Denver side of the Rockies,

260
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,680
and then you literally come out of the tunnel

261
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,160
and a ski lift passes over the top of the train.

262
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That's cool.

263
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,360
Well, there's ski lifts everywhere over there, so.

264
00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,040
Yeah, because it's a ski lift.

265
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,360
I can't remember which one, I want to say Fraser?

266
00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,720
Yeah, Breckenridge is at 9,600, that's the base of that.

267
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,480
And we were up a little bit from that and everything else.

268
00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,480
Yeah, a couple of us were feeling it though.

269
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,040
That's like, what, 2,800 meters or something?

270
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:43,640
It's pretty high.

271
00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,640
More even, I think.

272
00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,000
3,000 meters.

273
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,000
Wow, okay, shit.

274
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,680
That's like, that's like glacier height.

275
00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:52,520
Yeah.

276
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:53,960
That's like summer snow height.

277
00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:54,800
That's it.

278
00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,600
It was a lot, and it was so dry.

279
00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,480
Trying to sleep, you could only,

280
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,560
I got a bloody nose every night for one thing,

281
00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:02,200
and that's not fun.

282
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,400
For two, we were trying to sleep,

283
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:05,880
and because I'm trying to avoid a bloody nose,

284
00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,840
I'm breathing out my mouth, and then my mouth would dry out.

285
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:09,800
And then you have to do the whole thing

286
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:10,840
where you swirl your tongue around

287
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,280
to try and generate just a little bit of saliva.

288
00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,040
Man, all night long, all eight nights, it was tough.

289
00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:17,880
It was tough.

290
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,000
It was.

291
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,040
It just sounds like a bunch of people in like,

292
00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,760
in like early middle adulthood,

293
00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,520
just like complaining about mild ailments for three days.

294
00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,880
My right knee and my hip are killing me.

295
00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,200
Yeah, and the pillows are really tough.

296
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:35,040
The pillows are rough.

297
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:35,880
Yeah.

298
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,000
The water's too soft.

299
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,560
Just got a little bit of eczema.

300
00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:40,080
Like this.

301
00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:40,920
God damn eczema.

302
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,320
This humidity, yeah, it would have fit right in.

303
00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:44,160
That would have been great.

304
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,200
I was literally complaining about that earlier today.

305
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,080
So yeah, happy days.

306
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:51,000
Yep.

307
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,240
So yeah, good thing to have missed that,

308
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,600
but what else has been happening?

309
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,600
So yeah, doxed, I look terrible and sound terrible

310
00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:02,080
because I've just had a child.

311
00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,440
So, and that's also why I'm not in eczema now.

312
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:07,920
That was last week.

313
00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,480
Why I'm not in anywhere now other than here

314
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,000
and was changing babies before.

315
00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,200
So what the fuck have I missed?

316
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,800
What's been happening in the cosmos or in anywhere?

317
00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:21,800
Like what's been happening?

318
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,120
I've literally not seen any.

319
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,440
The government could have fallen,

320
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:26,680
I barely would have known.

321
00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:29,080
Like it's just been a long tunnel.

322
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,840
The last week has just been a long tunnel of coffee

323
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,320
and coffee and midnight changes.

324
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:36,240
I don't know.

325
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,080
Well, we were all kind of out for the last two weeks.

326
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:39,720
So I don't know what else the hell happened.

327
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,200
Just that altitude sickness.

328
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:42,040
Just the altitude sickness.

329
00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,800
It really does take.

330
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,480
We just keep watching the prices, they keep falling

331
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:46,840
and we're just kind of sitting around and.

332
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,040
Yeah, every time you think it's at ATL, right?

333
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:49,880
That is the one thing I have.

334
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,880
That's the one thing I happen paying attention to.

335
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,840
I'm like, ooh, I keep downsizing our servers

336
00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,040
and the price keeps coming down and making it unprofitable.

337
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,920
Just like, what are you doing?

338
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:03,160
Yeah.

339
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:04,560
Yeah, we've gone from being invited

340
00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:08,720
to fancy cocktail receptions from our account manager

341
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,600
to just not being contacted at all.

342
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,080
Just quietly, quietly ghosted.

343
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,120
You text them and they're like, who's this?

344
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,360
Like this guy's got no money.

345
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,760
Sorry, new phone, new phone.

346
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:23,960
Are you a client of ours?

347
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,240
No, we're not really sure about that.

348
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:27,080
Crypto client?

349
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,880
Yeah.

350
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,760
It's not a growth area for us.

351
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:31,280
Right.

352
00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:32,760
It's not a priority at the moment.

353
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,200
Well, Cerberus shut down on Monday.

354
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:41,520
I think Cerberus shut down on Monday.

355
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:42,680
Yeah, we were in the car.

356
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:45,320
Yeah, we were.

357
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,920
I think Polka, I saw PolkaTube post,

358
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,160
or maybe it was Polka's intern, post on Twitter.

359
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,240
They got the last TX.

360
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,760
Yeah, the last transaction.

361
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:56,760
Pretty good.

362
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,520
It's a shame they didn't IBC that token,

363
00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,480
and then they could have had the last transaction as an NFT.

364
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:03,400
There you go.

365
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,640
Yeah, that shut down Monday.

366
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,080
It's over.

367
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,080
Dream's over.

368
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,240
Dream's over.

369
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,120
Deserve to die, so fair enough.

370
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,040
Well, I think it's pretty interesting, though,

371
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,400
because I think this is the official first chain that's

372
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:16,320
being shut down.

373
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,840
Because there's even chains from 2018, 2019

374
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,280
that are still running like straight edge.

375
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:24,880
Straight edge is still running.

376
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,960
And I bet you guys even know what that is.

377
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:27,600
Nope.

378
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:28,760
Nope.

379
00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,560
It was like, I think it was a chain,

380
00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:33,320
Sunny was part of it, I think, where

381
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,800
the goal was to create a bridge between the Cosmos and Polka

382
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:37,840
Dot, I want to say.

383
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:39,000
And that thing's still running.

384
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:39,920
It has no developers.

385
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,200
It just has like 10 validators running it for no reason.

386
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,280
So I think that's the first chain to go down.

387
00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,320
Is it even IBC'd?

388
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:49,840
No, it's not.

389
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,440
It's just sat chugging away.

390
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,160
Just making blocks in the corner.

391
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:55,160
Just making blocks.

392
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:56,320
Yep, exactly right.

393
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,440
So it's playing with Lego in the corner,

394
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,880
just quietly minding its own business.

395
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:01,800
Yeah.

396
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:02,520
Fair enough.

397
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:03,560
You've got to respect that.

398
00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:05,440
If it's not IBC'd, though, that's the thing.

399
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,160
It's just like, yolo, whatever.

400
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,680
Oh, your ramen said in the chat, dead chain down.

401
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:14,120
So I am vaguely aware of this, which

402
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,920
is I think this is a meme inspired by a game of notes,

403
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,840
right, which is a DAO for the chains as they die.

404
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,000
So speaking of which, it's not dead,

405
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,280
but there was something about Joe chain as well, right,

406
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:30,400
in the last few days.

407
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,320
That has completely blown over my head.

408
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,320
I just saw people arguing on Twitter about something.

409
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:37,200
Yeah.

410
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:38,480
I'm not sure what happened there.

411
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,040
I don't know if it's a joke or not.

412
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,920
But I want to say, Joe, I think it might be a joke.

413
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,360
I think Joe was joking that the Joe chain halted.

414
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,440
And then I want to say that he was joking

415
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:49,440
that he blamed Notional.

416
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:50,880
Like at the end of the tweet, he says, oh, and I

417
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,440
blamed Notional for this.

418
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,000
And Jacob was having absolutely none of it.

419
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,040
He came out swinging.

420
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,680
And then he put out a big old post

421
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:02,560
about how he has to take accusations like this seriously.

422
00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:04,280
And I don't know.

423
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,840
But I don't know.

424
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,080
I have nothing to say.

425
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,400
Is there an actual, I mean, that website is gone.

426
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,480
Because it used to be like Just Joe or something like that.

427
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:15,360
Is that what it was?

428
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,560
JustJoe.app, I think.

429
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:18,240
Yeah, something like that.

430
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:19,680
That website's gone.

431
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:20,920
He says it's halting.

432
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:22,160
But I'm not sure.

433
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:22,680
I don't know.

434
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,040
It would be a weird thing to say.

435
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,520
Maybe they're just halting it before somebody IVCs it

436
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,000
and they get done for money laundering.

437
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,760
I thought that they had already IVC'd it.

438
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,400
I thought there was someone like Juno swap or something.

439
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:33,680
Oh, yeah.

440
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,720
We talked about this a little bit in Denver, right?

441
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:36,240
Yeah.

442
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,520
Maybe this guy, maybe his attorney and or accountant

443
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,800
kind of stepped in and be like, do you know exactly

444
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,440
what this means that you have a token in your name

445
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,080
with some sort of IVC value on it?

446
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,680
Do you want to know where and how many of those do you own?

447
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:50,200
Yeah.

448
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:50,720
Fuck.

449
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,080
That might have been a great position to be in.

450
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:55,800
Right.

451
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,120
But oh, there you go.

452
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,880
Rama's in the chat saying, Popmos

453
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,000
has like 60% of the supply state.

454
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,240
So he can hold it on his own.

455
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,640
So presumably, there's actually some kind of in-joke here

456
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,520
going on with Popmos.

457
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,080
OK.

458
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,920
One must assume I haven't done my research because I've not

459
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,680
been at the computer other than to it's not obviously related

460
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,560
to Cosmos, but we've been doing some stuff on Aptos, which

461
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,640
has been pretty stressful.

462
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,160
I've got to ask, is that a Hakko soldering iron on your desk?

463
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:28,960
You said that.

464
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:29,640
Yeah, it is.

465
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,040
Is it an FX8888?

466
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,120
That I don't know.

467
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,880
Temperature controlled.

468
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:37,240
It is definitely temperature controlled.

469
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:38,720
I'll get you a model number while we're sitting here.

470
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:39,840
It's a good one.

471
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,200
Because I just had a sudden moment to recognize.

472
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,280
You did.

473
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,680
It's a buggy reef, but I don't even know how long.

474
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,000
I was just like, that thing looks super cool.

475
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:55,280
Like a thing that I own and not so much enjoy, but I respect.

476
00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:00,640
It is a FX888D23BY.

477
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,920
Is it sad that I got the model number?

478
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,440
I don't know the exact model number,

479
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:10,080
but I respect the shit out of that model number.

480
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,640
Oh my goodness.

481
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,440
Oh dear, it's a funny thing.

482
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,360
Funny thing, sleep deprivation.

483
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,280
So.

484
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,800
I mean, back to the Joe chain thing.

485
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,480
To be honest, even if we wore it out for two weeks,

486
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,680
we wouldn't give a shit about this topic anyway.

487
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,880
No, I mean, it is a chain to test out features.

488
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,360
I mean, at the end of the day, I think it basically

489
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,880
is a meme where the meme is that Reese wanted to get better

490
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,480
at doing chain development.

491
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,520
And so did a bunch of stuff on Joe chain

492
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,200
and use it as a learning platform and launched it as a joke.

493
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,000
And it's still alive.

494
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,440
And I don't know how much Reese is actually like super.

495
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,080
I don't know.

496
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:46,240
We've had Reese on the show before.

497
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,520
We could ask him again, are you still super jazzed

498
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,800
that Joe is a thing, or are you beginning to be like, ah.

499
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:54,040
Shit.

500
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:55,040
Yeah, exactly.

501
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,640
I think there was a lot of drama with it with Notional before,

502
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,080
because I think it was a fork of the Eve chain

503
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,560
that Notional was building.

504
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,440
So I think that might be where part of it's

505
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,280
coming from where, because of that drama,

506
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,800
they started winding it down.

507
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,360
Yeah, well, maybe.

508
00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:13,040
I don't know, because Eve was just a fork of Juno

509
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,680
with YOLOed features in, basically.

510
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:16,400
Right, yes.

511
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:16,920
And.

512
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,440
The YOLOed features.

513
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,840
Well, yeah, it was basically like YOLOed a bunch of features.

514
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,160
And if the chain crashes or it's unstable,

515
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,160
well, it doesn't have the market cap of Juno, so who cares, right?

516
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,560
And then I think Reese was working for Notional,

517
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,120
and then he wasn't working for Notional,

518
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:36,000
and he was just like, oh, well, I've done.

519
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,920
I think he did a fair bit of the actual work,

520
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,720
and so he was just like, well, I'm just going to fork it.

521
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,400
And YOLO is Joe chain.

522
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,200
And then it was just like, oh, actually, well, you

523
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,960
can just work on Juno, and we can just instead,

524
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,000
YOLOed features onto a test net.

525
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,360
And then if it crashes, that's a test net.

526
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:56,640
And if they work, then we can just put them into production.

527
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,440
And that's another way of doing it.

528
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,200
And so that's, I think, basically what happened there.

529
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:06,080
But yeah, there seems to be an ongoing sort of beef

530
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,400
in some direction, a bidirectional beef in that area,

531
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:09,920
isn't there?

532
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,040
But it doesn't really seem worth getting into.

533
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:14,560
There was some-

534
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,600
I just said that there's an explanation of Joe chain

535
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,200
in the Read Me on GitHub.

536
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,400
And yeah, so I posted it in the chat.

537
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,440
You can read it.

538
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,720
It does have to do with Notional and the story behind how

539
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,280
Joe chain became a thing.

540
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:34,240
There was some cool-

541
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:34,920
I do like the-

542
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:35,720
I mean, we talked about this before,

543
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,080
about the idea of creating something

544
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,080
that can be a fuck around chain and try some new things

545
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,280
and something else that has no monetary structure to it.

546
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,200
It should never have been IPC.

547
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,280
Don't understand that piece.

548
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,160
But because I think one of the ones that I commented on

549
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,080
a little bit ago was like, Reese was building it

550
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,640
where you could only vote yes or no with veto.

551
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,080
So they got rid of no, and they got rid of abstain.

552
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,200
I was like, actually, that's a pretty good idea

553
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:57,160
for the Cosmos SDK.

554
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,400
I kind of dig it.

555
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,680
When you bring up proposals, you got to come correct, right?

556
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,560
So either it is or it's gone.

557
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,440
I kind of dig that.

558
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,920
And I was asking them to make it where

559
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,080
validators don't vote their stake, which is-

560
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,720
I'm sorry, don't vote non-voting shares.

561
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:16,560
To just make it-

562
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,040
To lower the quorum, just make people vote their own bags,

563
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:20,480
see what happens.

564
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,680
Kind of interested to see what would happen with that.

565
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,320
So anyway, I'm not sure if I really care

566
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,120
about the notional drama.

567
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:28,840
I think DeFray locked up.

568
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,240
I think he's reading through the readme right now.

569
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:33,280
I think he locked up.

570
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:34,680
Yeah, okay.

571
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,000
So yeah, your response was basically where I was like,

572
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,200
eh, what can we do?

573
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,600
Thanks for the heads up, Todd, on where to read about it.

574
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,960
Because that's kind of,

575
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,000
I don't know if it makes it better or worse to know.

576
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,560
Yeah.

577
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,120
I mean, TLDR is not worth getting into.

578
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:54,000
It will be, from having actually read it all,

579
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,560
it just seems like, can I actually,

580
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,040
do you know what, it's this.

581
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,600
Sorry for those on podcast players.

582
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,680
I just made a sort of flapping,

583
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,680
hysterical flapping gesture.

584
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,840
I think that's really the only answer though.

585
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,320
That is the takeaway.

586
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:15,160
It's like,

587
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:18,600
What you gonna do?

588
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,080
Yeah.

589
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:21,960
And Rama just said, hello, traveler in the chat.

590
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:22,960
I wonder if that's a,

591
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:23,800
so I don't know,

592
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,240
I'm gonna be the most scatty I probably will ever be.

593
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,640
But I wonder if that's a reference to Folk.

594
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,400
Have you ever seen any of the Limmy's show?

595
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,000
It's like, it's kind of,

596
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,520
it was sort of like a low budget Scottish comedy

597
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,920
in like the early 2010s.

598
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,880
And there's this great sketch where,

599
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,200
it's like one of those old phone into the TV adventure

600
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:45,960
things where they just basically try to keep the person

601
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,000
on the line so that it costs them money.

602
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,040
And there's this guy with like a really shit beard

603
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:51,640
on called Folk and Hoof.

604
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:52,920
People call him in,

605
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,160
he's like, hello, traveler.

606
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,440
It's really, this is a great sketch.

607
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,200
And it just has,

608
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:00,560
cause like a bunch of the sketches obviously

609
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:01,600
cause it's set in Scotland.

610
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,480
Like he's like, hello, traveler.

611
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,920
Would you like to come on an adventure?

612
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,080
And there's just like a beret,

613
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,920
like an irate Glaswegian mother being like,

614
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,920
my son called this line and he cost 30 pounds.

615
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,280
And then it just, it's just very funny.

616
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:17,120
It's very funny sketch.

617
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:19,480
Look it up, Limmy show, Folk and Hoof.

618
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:20,600
Look up Folk and Hoof.

619
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:21,760
That's a...

620
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,240
I feel like this is a case of where

621
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,280
Occam's razor is the right answer.

622
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:26,840
Noel pops in, says hi.

623
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,440
So Rama says, hello, traveler.

624
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,200
Cause Noel's in the U S right now.

625
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,400
I think that that is the actual answer.

626
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:35,880
I'm just saying what I want to say.

627
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,600
What can I tell you?

628
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,000
But that could also be it.

629
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,800
But your answer could also be it.

630
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,600
Let's see how contrived we can make.

631
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:49,240
Yeah.

632
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,720
So what other stuff?

633
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:56,240
So I know one other thing that I do know has happened

634
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:01,240
is that obviously Core One on June has expanded

635
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,840
and myself and Maximilian, the legend, the wombat,

636
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,840
has joined Core One.

637
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,560
And what we've been doing recently is some,

638
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:16,520
okay, I want to say like,

639
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,600
I was about to say like,

640
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,640
there's like a corporate away day where we're learning,

641
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,040
we're doing trust exercises and Wolf Contract is catching,

642
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,920
is catching like Jack's just falling back

643
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,080
and Wolf's catching him.

644
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,040
It's all that kind of stuff,

645
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,720
except there is a little element of that.

646
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,600
There's a little element of the Core One team

647
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,160
going away to a spa day to work out

648
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,520
like what the fuck to do with Juno for the next year.

649
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,240
And ha ha ha ha, no.

650
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,640
And there is actually like,

651
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,360
it's very, very well broadcast.

652
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:57,800
There is actually now like a mission statement for Juno,

653
00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:58,960
which is kind of cool.

654
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,840
And the way you know this is because it is the Twitter header

655
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,960
of the Juno network on Twitter.

656
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,960
But that's, you know, better than nothing.

657
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:11,800
That's the start.

658
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,640
There's a mission statement,

659
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,280
which is Juno is the Interchain Dow Hub.

660
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:17,480
There you go.

661
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,240
Single line mission statement.

662
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:20,080
Okay.

663
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,080
And-

664
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:21,920
That's not only a mission statement,

665
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,080
that's like a statement of fact, right?

666
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,040
Well, it's a statement of fact.

667
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,480
It's a statement of what the chain's about.

668
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:27,520
It's a statement of all of it.

669
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,040
And then there's a prior,

670
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,880
there's a prioritization process going on.

671
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,600
And this is like, this is kind of the fun thing, I guess,

672
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:34,960
because from my perspective, I'm looking at this

673
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,560
and this is basically what the same type

674
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,320
of consulting stuff you used to do with,

675
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,800
like, you know, you go into like a fucking,

676
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,320
a fucking bulk paper sales company, right?

677
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,120
And they're like, we're getting murdered by people

678
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:50,520
that buy their paper in bulk on Amazon.

679
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,280
And you're like, okay, so I guess what you got to do is like,

680
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,920
hire a couple of developers, build a platform,

681
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,040
streamline some of your backend processes,

682
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,080
write some priorities for the next year,

683
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,400
and then, you know, refine your business practice.

684
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,400
And then, hey, maybe you'll be profitable again.

685
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,520
And that's kind of like, yeah.

686
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,520
Turns out the same stuff everywhere, right?

687
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,240
It's all just operational stuff

688
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,080
that's happening everywhere is the hard bit.

689
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,240
So away from all that, now that you're part of Core One,

690
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:20,880
tell me about like the dynamics.

691
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,480
Let us all into, bring us into the fold

692
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,400
of the Juneau Core One dynamics.

693
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,880
And what's it been as a new member

694
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,600
of a team that's existed for a long time

695
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,560
that I'm sure has a lot of built-in opinions

696
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,480
about direction and each other and those types of things?

697
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,320
Like have you felt like an outsider in a closed meeting

698
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,920
or have you felt like this group was waiting

699
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,080
for some new viewpoints at a Core One level?

700
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,120
Yeah, I think there's...

701
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,120
It's too spicy or not?

702
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:53,600
It's not too spicy, right?

703
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,320
Yeah, well, I guess I've been completely frank.

704
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,120
I think there's the thing of like,

705
00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:59,560
you're never gonna fully be,

706
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,840
I think the idea that Core One is like,

707
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,840
is like basically fucking not true.

708
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:05,680
Okay.

709
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,440
It is in name only, but it's not

710
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,840
because it is recognized by people

711
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,520
as being the founding team, right?

712
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:13,360
Yeah, sure.

713
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:18,160
And the reality is like people like me and Max,

714
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,080
like we've been with Juneau,

715
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,560
like pretty much since the project started,

716
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,720
like the Discord had launched and stuff.

717
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:26,560
Yeah.

718
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:28,920
But we're not like,

719
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,400
but we're not like founders.

720
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,640
And there is fundamentally,

721
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,760
there is always going to be a power imbalance

722
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:37,760
as a result of that.

723
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,000
And I think unless everybody from the founders left

724
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,560
and it was all new people,

725
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:45,920
you would always have that dynamic.

726
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,680
And then you would probably have a similar dynamic

727
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,520
where you would have people who have been there longer.

728
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,120
And that's, this is why you have fixed terms in office, right?

729
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:56,560
This is why you have to have turnover.

730
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,000
This is why you have to have...

731
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,160
So at the moment we're just,

732
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,920
at the moment it's basically like a board,

733
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,960
albeit a slightly dysfunctional one,

734
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,720
or has historically been dysfunctional.

735
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,400
I think it's actually like all groups of people

736
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,400
who are trying to coordinate from a bike club to core one,

737
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,840
they are more dysfunctional on the inside

738
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,280
than the outside in some ways than you'd think.

739
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,560
And they are less dysfunctional on the inside

740
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,640
than they look on the outside in some ways.

741
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,800
And they're not usually in the ways you expect, right?

742
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,520
And it's always just interpersonal dynamics.

743
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,160
And it's just the same with any group of people you find,

744
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,400
that's just, you can put together six random people,

745
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,080
which is essentially what happened,

746
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:42,920
or five, sorry, five random people.

747
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,520
And that's how you get into a position

748
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:47,920
where obviously it's going to be,

749
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,000
there are going to be weird dynamics

750
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,440
between some people and stuff.

751
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,200
And I think the interesting thing about it, I guess,

752
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,760
is in its current form, it's more like a kind of

753
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:57,600
advisory board.

754
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,480
And I guess that's how I kind of see,

755
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,800
I kind of see our involvement and it's weird,

756
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,080
because I sort of see it from the company's perspective.

757
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,440
This is just a thing, we've been asked to do it.

758
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,240
We are there as a representative to do essentially

759
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,800
what we normally do when we do corporate consulting,

760
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,680
which is trying to push things along

761
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,720
and put structure around things and whatnot.

762
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,720
And then I guess the biggest within,

763
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,480
so there's two dynamics, there's one which is founders,

764
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,520
and then there's new people, which is me and Max.

765
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:30,560
And then there's a second dynamic,

766
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,200
which is devs and non-devs.

767
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:37,200
So there's sort of Demi, Max, and Jack,

768
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,200
who are more kind of developer-y

769
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,880
to different extents as well.

770
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:44,920
And then-

771
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,960
Wait, hold on, Max is a developer?

772
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,160
Who did I say?

773
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,320
Did I say Jack?

774
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,840
Although I might say Max, because they sound similar

775
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,360
in words, or they both have an A in them, and I'm tired.

776
00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:58,720
Okay, but not Max.

777
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,320
Jack, Demi, and Jake.

778
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,240
Both are- Jack, I got it.

779
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,240
Oh, did I say Max instead of Jake?

780
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,880
I think so, anyway.

781
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,040
I'm so tired.

782
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,600
So, but those three are like primarily devs,

783
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,920
and then Block and Wolf are primarily

784
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,800
sort of marketing community-focused,

785
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,640
and then what's happened with new people coming in is like,

786
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,560
again, Max is kind of more marketing community.

787
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:24,880
And like, well, I guess the thing is actually,

788
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,040
Max has always been a big,

789
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,320
he's very good at like tokenomics and strategy

790
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:30,280
and all that kind of things.

791
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,480
He has like a really strong understanding,

792
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,440
but also like a really strong intuition

793
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,840
for how all of that works and should work.

794
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,800
So, which, you know, to be fair, like Wolf, I guess,

795
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,440
did a lot of the tokenomics and stuff like that.

796
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,680
So maybe that's the thing that Max and Wolf have in common.

797
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,560
So there's a few different, I guess, pockets of interests.

798
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,240
And then there's obviously like, you know,

799
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,080
obviously me and Jake,

800
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,680
like I fucking ripped the shit out of him all the time

801
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:54,520
for the DAOs thing.

802
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,440
We're like, obviously I think DAOs are important.

803
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,000
And like, I'm just not a maximum,

804
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,240
I'm not a maximalist about anything in my life, really.

805
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,080
You know what I mean?

806
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,440
I think they have a really useful use case

807
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,560
in a really specific set of circumstances,

808
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,040
which is exciting and interesting to talk about and work on.

809
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,040
But-

810
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,400
Not the solution for everything, right?

811
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:11,240
Yeah, right.

812
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,760
Same as blockchain, same as anything.

813
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:13,600
Yeah, right, right.

814
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,240
Yeah, there's very few things in life

815
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,000
that are black and white, good or bad,

816
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,760
or you should be maximalist about.

817
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,480
You know, even like you buy a fucking Korg Monopoly, right?

818
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,760
You're not gonna put it on every track you write.

819
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,760
At some point you get bored about synthesizer

820
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,960
and you're gonna be like,

821
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,720
I might need a different flavor now,

822
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,840
a different flavor of 80 synthesis.

823
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,400
Not the first acronym or the idea

824
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:42,560
that I would have used in that situation,

825
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:43,760
but I understand what you're saying.

826
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,680
I was just, I'm looking out of shot at a synthesizer.

827
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,480
And so for some reason I was reminded

828
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,480
of the excellent default first preset on the,

829
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:56,440
well, it's not really a preset,

830
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:57,600
it's kind of pre-presets,

831
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,600
but like the absolute stock Monopoly sound

832
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,040
that everybody sets up the first time they get hands on one.

833
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,920
I wish I owned one, but I totally,

834
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,720
A, can't afford one and can't justify affording one,

835
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,200
because I would just put it on this one sound

836
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,840
and be like, and then I get bored of it.

837
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,280
And I'd be like, why'd I spend $3,000 on a synthesizer

838
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,240
with one sound that I could just do with a plugin?

839
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:18,200
That's insane.

840
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,080
Are there any term limits on Core One now,

841
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,240
or is that, that's not gonna happen, or is it?

842
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,080
No, I think, well, I think it's gonna,

843
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,560
is it gonna just continue to grow as?

844
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,080
Yeah, I think it's kind of the opposite problem where like,

845
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,880
so one of the interesting things about the structure

846
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,560
of Core One for the beginning was about trying

847
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,680
to incentivize the people to stay around

848
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,880
and actually not rug Juno, essentially.

849
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,080
Yeah.

850
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,080
There is no incentive mechanism in place at present

851
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,720
of any kind for new people.

852
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,160
And it's not really clear how that would work either,

853
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:51,760
because long vestings and stuff,

854
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,080
and also like the tokenomics themselves,

855
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,400
like there's a lot of questions.

856
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,720
And there's also questions about like how you,

857
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,680
I mean, this is the same as the teams funding questions

858
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,080
that we've had in the past and stuff.

859
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,040
Like it's all part and parcel of the same thing,

860
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,200
which is that very easy to find the money to fund things

861
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,640
when prices are high, it's very hard to work out

862
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,560
how to fund things when prices are down.

863
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,560
And it's also, you're always kind of working around

864
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,040
the fact that you're pricing in risk

865
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,240
for the people involved.

866
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,160
So, but the idea that it can expand forever

867
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:29,760
is obviously not true.

868
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,880
And I guess at some point people will have to come and go.

869
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,720
And yeah, it will be interesting to see how that develops.

870
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,000
I mean, I think, I suspect it will end up being

871
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,280
something like a by-election where, you know,

872
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,320
if somebody secedes or is asked to secede,

873
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,800
then there's an election triggered for that place.

874
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,360
But I don't think we're also,

875
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,760
I don't think we're really in a sophisticated enough place

876
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,760
yet where we can sustain an actual functional election.

877
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,520
Like, I mean, elections are obviously popularity contest,

878
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,960
but they are even more so in this space, I think.

879
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,040
They're either a popularity contest

880
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,880
or they're nepotism, basically.

881
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,200
And, you know, let's be brutally honest about this.

882
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,800
Max is there, encore one now, because of popularity,

883
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,160
because he is incredibly strong advocate for the community,

884
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,560
is incredibly visible, is amazing at what he does.

885
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,520
And I'm there because of nepotism,

886
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,120
because I'm fundamentally well-known by,

887
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,320
not by members of the community, if anything,

888
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,680
the one reputation we have there is actually quite negative

889
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,080
because of Prop 16.

890
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,080
But, you know, obviously with the Validator team,

891
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,440
with the Dev team, with everybody around,

892
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,440
like we're very well-known for our contributions

893
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,440
as a company, and I'm very well-known

894
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,520
individually within the Juno thing.

895
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,760
But, yeah, are we even the right people to be encore?

896
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,840
Well, that's another story.

897
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,800
Yeah, it's an interesting, I guess it's like the thing of,

898
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:01,960
like, oh, everything we're doing right now

899
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,280
is just fucking throwing stuff at the wall

900
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:04,120
and seeing what sticks.

901
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,560
Like, we can put as much process around it as we want,

902
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,920
but that's still kind of where Core 1 is at,

903
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,240
and that's where Juno is at.

904
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,000
But I guess that's part of this, you know,

905
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,720
to take it back to the thing that we've decided,

906
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,960
which is that, you know, Juno is the Interchain DAO hub,

907
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,080
is to go like, Juno is a DAO,

908
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,400
DAODAO is the main blue chip on Juno,

909
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,440
take that as given, where do we go from there?

910
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,280
That's the decision.

911
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,480
That's the decision Core 1's made

912
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,600
insofar as like we have any real say

913
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,360
in kind of pointing to a direction.

914
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,680
And that's kind of, okay, cool, right?

915
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,440
What do we do with that information?

916
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:38,560
Right, right.

917
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,120
Like what, yeah, good point.

918
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,480
So is that what the decision was?

919
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:42,760
I don't know if I really heard that before.

920
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,280
So the Interchain DAO hub, meaning the other,

921
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:46,880
what about other applications they're trying to launch

922
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,760
and other types of things that are sitting on top of Juno?

923
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,440
Is it not about permissionless Cosmosm?

924
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,960
Well, I guess the point is that like,

925
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,600
permissionless Cosmosm isn't a differentiator,

926
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,360
but what is the differentiator for Juno

927
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,160
is the community that's built around it,

928
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,880
and it's the, I guess like the tooling

929
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,280
that has actually emerged on it,

930
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,280
which is primarily about,

931
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,680
so this is the kind of,

932
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,120
because this is a technical podcast,

933
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,080
it's mainly validators,

934
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,440
mainly developers that listen to this.

935
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,520
So I think when we talk about governance,

936
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:17,640
what we're really talking about

937
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,720
is how you manage incentive systems.

938
00:34:19,720 --> 00:34:20,720
We're talking about voting,

939
00:34:20,720 --> 00:34:22,240
we're talking about managing treasuries,

940
00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:24,080
we're talking about, so at the moment,

941
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:28,840
I'll get onto this in a minute,

942
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,680
but like I'm writing some stuff for HALDAO

943
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,600
to essentially like secure the treasury,

944
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:37,600
it has a similar mechanism

945
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,160
to something like the Unity contract,

946
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,520
where there's an overrider sub-DAO,

947
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,640
there's like an overrider group of people

948
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,360
who can veto decisions,

949
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,960
essentially pull decisions back

950
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,800
where they involve moving large amounts of funds, right?

951
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,000
Yeah.

952
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,560
It's just a brief concept,

953
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:55,840
it needs some more development,

954
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,800
but when DAO have a similar thing

955
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,200
where you can propose a contract,

956
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,440
you can propose a thing in their DAO,

957
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:02,800
but you can't execute it,

958
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:03,880
and their developer multisig

959
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,480
has to actually hit the execute button.

960
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,280
So there's a whole bunch of quite interesting things

961
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,240
around that, which are really about

962
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:14,720
building organisational structures

963
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:16,040
in a trustless environment, right?

964
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,320
It's about nerds on the internet, right?

965
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,920
Organising nerds on the internet back to the thing.

966
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,080
And if it's, for me, the interesting thing

967
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,440
about all this experiment has always been

968
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:26,520
building incentive systems,

969
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,520
it's like, okay, cool, building incentive system,

970
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,000
you now need to manage the system that you've built.

971
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,480
Okay, you're gonna need a DAO,

972
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:33,560
it might be a DAO of five people,

973
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,360
it might be a DAO of three people.

974
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:36,400
Right. You're gonna need a DAO,

975
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,400
and the problem is the name DAO is kind of lame,

976
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,880
but at some point you quickly see

977
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,360
you need something like a DAO,

978
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,400
you need a multisig, you need a DAO,

979
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,480
and that tooling has to come from somewhere,

980
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,720
and DAODAO is just the best current DAO tooling anywhere.

981
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:52,040
Agreed. In crypto.

982
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,880
Yeah, agreed.

983
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,440
And so by definition,

984
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,720
it is the best blue chip on Juno.

985
00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:59,040
Now, is it gonna pump anybody's bags?

986
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:00,280
Is it fuck?

987
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,000
So that is, that then,

988
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,480
but once you say, okay,

989
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,520
home of DAODAO, interchain DAO hub,

990
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,320
that is what Juno is, is community is DAOs.

991
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,240
Do ordinary people give a shit about DAOs?

992
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:11,400
Developers give a shit about DAOs?

993
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,160
People running large projects understand the value,

994
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:15,480
do ordinary people give a shit about them?

995
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,120
No, right.

996
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,800
So then the next thing becomes,

997
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,960
how can you make another project,

998
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,680
or how can you encourage the devs

999
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,240
that would wanna build with DAOs

1000
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:28,360
and build interesting new synergetic products

1001
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:29,720
to come and build on Juno

1002
00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,200
and build the thing that the average user

1003
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,680
would give a shit about?

1004
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,000
And maybe that average user

1005
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,760
doesn't even wanna fucking hear the word DAO.

1006
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,120
They don't give a fuck about DAO.

1007
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:38,960
Doesn't matter, right?

1008
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:39,800
That's just how the sausage is made.

1009
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,280
But it just so happens that the thing they wanna use

1010
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:43,680
has to have a DAO at its heart,

1011
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,120
because of course it does.

1012
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:45,960
Right.

1013
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,880
And that was kind of like the whole thing with HAL.

1014
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,960
It's like, we're obviously very close to DAODAO,

1015
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,320
but we're close to a lot of other things

1016
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,160
that we wanted to do,

1017
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:53,200
and it just links them all together.

1018
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,240
It's like NFTs and DAOs and posting stuff

1019
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:58,280
and content and blogs and whatever.

1020
00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:59,160
It just all kind of goes like,

1021
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,760
oh yeah, this is kind of the intersection

1022
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,160
of all of these things result in,

1023
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,040
you sign a multi-sig transaction and you post some content.

1024
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,000
Yeah.

1025
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,240
Well, I mean, there's other ways to think about it as well

1026
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:10,640
from a developer perspective.

1027
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,800
Like, if you wanna build a website,

1028
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,560
arguably one of the best things you can use is Django,

1029
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,440
which is a framework for Python programmers.

1030
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,400
And the main reason to use Django

1031
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:21,920
is because they have a lot of built-in tools

1032
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,600
around database management, right?

1033
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,120
And that was kind of the same way

1034
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,160
in that the way you have to frame it,

1035
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,680
the frame, the usefulness of it

1036
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,840
isn't something you would think commonly.

1037
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,760
You wouldn't think going to Django is the best thing offhand

1038
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,560
like as an average developer

1039
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:38,960
because of its database management.

1040
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,960
And it's like admin panels, all that built-in stuff,

1041
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:42,960
but that's the reality.

1042
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,920
The reality is it's just that one level deeper

1043
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:45,960
where once you have experience

1044
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,720
and you've kind of hit these problems yourself,

1045
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:50,800
you realize, oh, I actually don't wanna do any of this.

1046
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,280
I can offload it over there.

1047
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:53,600
That's the beauty.

1048
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,800
Yeah, I mean, that's the kind of thing with it

1049
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:56,880
is it's not so much like,

1050
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,760
it's not constricting the framework of the thing you build.

1051
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:00,840
It just gives you an API.

1052
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,520
So you go, ah, I don't have to write a fucking DAO contract

1053
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,720
so that our project can have a DAO.

1054
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:08,400
I don't have to write a sub-DAO contract

1055
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,600
so that I can write an escrow contract

1056
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,680
that can protect the treasury of our DAO.

1057
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,000
I don't have to, like, all these other things,

1058
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,800
you can just go like, okay, well, there'll be a sub-DAO.

1059
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:16,880
It will have a contract to dress.

1060
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,600
So I can make this thing over here

1061
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,880
that takes a contract as its admin,

1062
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,640
and I can just write a contract with the assumption

1063
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,720
that I have DAOed out, I have sub-DAOs,

1064
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:27,760
I can figure that out later.

1065
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,120
And it's that kind of stuff where you're trying

1066
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,120
to actually administer how all of that works.

1067
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,280
And again, it's also so early.

1068
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,240
You're just like, so much of this is just,

1069
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:39,800
it's still quite hypothetical.

1070
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,680
To launch Howl, we have,

1071
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,680
because it's completely controlled by a multi-sig DAO,

1072
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,360
we had to just actually do

1073
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,360
all of the contract deployments and all the code

1074
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,720
and everything, like the uploads and everything via DAO.

1075
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:55,000
And there is a moment where you are like,

1076
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,720
okay, this is crazy fucking future technology.

1077
00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:01,120
We're literally just launching, managing software

1078
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,040
via cryptographically signed transactions with ledgers.

1079
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,520
And there's three of us in three different time zones

1080
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,240
signing off on this to get it launched.

1081
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:10,640
That's fucking nuts.

1082
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:11,480
And then you get it launched,

1083
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,040
and you're like, oh, that's really cool.

1084
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,240
Okay, but yeah, nobody's actually gonna,

1085
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:19,360
there isn't a mass market app that's gonna launch this way

1086
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,880
or do this for fucking years.

1087
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:22,960
Right.

1088
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,720
Because we're just so early.

1089
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,960
But I think that is the interesting question though,

1090
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,360
is how you actually turn what is a really cool set

1091
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,360
of tooling for nerds and developers

1092
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,560
who want to build serious products

1093
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,440
into something that serious developers look at.

1094
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,000
And they go, oh fuck, I have to build there

1095
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,680
because actually I don't really wanna fucking

1096
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:45,960
manage this shit myself.

1097
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:46,800
Yeah.

1098
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,760
And more broadly speaking also,

1099
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,400
this ties into the IBC thing because the more IBC tooling

1100
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,280
you build around Juno and around Doudou

1101
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:54,960
and around all this other stuff,

1102
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,360
you can build on your own chain or whatever,

1103
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:58,600
but it's also part of that.

1104
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,760
So you asked, you said Serp,

1105
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,680
how does this tie into the permissionless cosmology thing?

1106
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,320
Well, the permissionless cosmology thing has always been

1107
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,080
build your project on Juno,

1108
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:09,720
spin up your own app chain later.

1109
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:11,640
That's the app chain thesis, right?

1110
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,640
So if you go, well, we're gonna be an incubator,

1111
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:21,200
like the IBC maximalism thing comes quite naturally.

1112
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,240
And again, most of these projects need Doudou

1113
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:26,360
to manage how stuff kind of works.

1114
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,080
Like that's something that we found,

1115
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,800
building a non-trivial product.

1116
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,200
And you go, okay, well, if we were gonna launch

1117
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,680
the first version of it as we did, we launched it on Juno.

1118
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,200
If that were wildly successful and we launched an app chain,

1119
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:40,840
it's not like we would move the DAO.

1120
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,320
We would want to probably just interact with it over IBC

1121
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:44,880
from another chain.

1122
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,600
Cause you've got all of your stuff

1123
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,360
is kind of set up over there.

1124
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:49,200
You're not gonna be like,

1125
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,560
oh, I'm just gonna turn all that shit off.

1126
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:52,760
It's kind of unlikely, is it?

1127
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,960
So there's also like an element here where

1128
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,400
by making one decision, you kind of go, okay, well,

1129
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,360
it also means we have to work out the IBC middleware story.

1130
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,960
We have to work out all of that side of things

1131
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,960
to make that thing work better.

1132
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,680
And again, it's like projecting forward

1133
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,440
quite a period of time.

1134
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,160
Cause it's just a long way away, you know?

1135
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:16,160
Like whichever way you kind of look at it, I suppose.

1136
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,000
But, and then like, I suppose other things fall out

1137
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,120
of that like mesh security and stuff like that too,

1138
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,800
where you're just like, again, it's about how do you,

1139
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,520
how do you ensure that value is coming back to Juno

1140
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,200
as an incubator, I suppose.

1141
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:31,720
And it's not fully worked out.

1142
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:33,560
Like nothing is at this point.

1143
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:35,680
But yeah.

1144
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:36,520
I don't know.

1145
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,400
Is there anybody on the Core One team that's like singly,

1146
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,400
or is there a group that's singly focused on monetization?

1147
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,080
On monetization of the Juno token?

1148
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,960
Of monetization of the mission.

1149
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,800
Like there's a lot, like everything we just talked about,

1150
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,160
and also most of these DAOs are about like spending.

1151
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:56,600
Like they're all about, you know, growth funds

1152
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,080
or this or that and finding ways to be able

1153
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,560
to dump community tokens and, you know,

1154
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,120
basically paying for users, other types of things.

1155
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,420
But like that example there,

1156
00:42:04,420 --> 00:42:05,800
is there anybody responsible to say,

1157
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,280
what do we, it seems like sometimes we build just to build,

1158
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:10,640
and we don't have a singular vision

1159
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,840
in terms of who wants to buy.

1160
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,360
Will that be chains within the Cosmos,

1161
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,800
or like you said, maybe things that are outside

1162
00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:18,560
that might come forward?

1163
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,680
Like is anybody thinking that way to say,

1164
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,720
okay, we have this great tooling.

1165
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:24,160
How do we make sure that we're aligning

1166
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:25,960
all of these decisions and this backlog

1167
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,720
of cool things that we can do

1168
00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:30,880
to someone who's willing to pay for it?

1169
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,320
I don't think that exists currently.

1170
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:35,160
Yeah.

1171
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,560
I think it's probably, well, I think it's,

1172
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,160
there are, it's certainly something

1173
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,280
that Max advocates for, and has always advocated for.

1174
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:49,080
So I think historically, I don't think I would argue

1175
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,400
that that's the thing that was thought about.

1176
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,800
I think it's a build it and they'll come attitude.

1177
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,320
Which is just crypto has investors, it doesn't have users.

1178
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:59,680
It's back to the thing we always talk about

1179
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:00,520
on this podcast.

1180
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,360
Until crypto has users, or not even crypto,

1181
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,480
until interchain applications with use cases

1182
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,480
have users and not investors, that is moot.

1183
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,880
And really it's that thing of, well,

1184
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,640
it's like having 10 or 15 decent quality protocols

1185
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,680
that are all bringing in a small amount

1186
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,680
of consistent user base and liquidity.

1187
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,680
Like the idea of like, these crazy pump and dumps and stuff,

1188
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,160
that's just not how the future is gonna be.

1189
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,800
The most useful thing crypto can do is microtransactions.

1190
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,160
Like it's just gonna be like 100,000 users,

1191
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,160
200,000 users transacting very small amounts,

1192
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,360
and then having to swap in and out of the native token.

1193
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,600
That's to me, that's really, that seems like

1194
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,240
one of the most obvious things that you can do with crypto.

1195
00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:54,840
And that's why I'm so like, you need to find use cases

1196
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,240
that are not like, that are just bankable.

1197
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:00,440
They just solve a problem for people,

1198
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,320
and they just interact with it

1199
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:03,960
and generate a small fee each time.

1200
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,960
And it's not gas fees, because that shit doesn't scale.

1201
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,240
It's like people actually spending money

1202
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:13,000
into an economic mechanism that has some kind of go around.

1203
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,040
Like, you know, yeah, I don't think, I think, like I say,

1204
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,160
I think Howell is like a proof of concept more than like,

1205
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,600
like it's a thought experiment fleshed out,

1206
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,760
put out into the wild, but it has all of the hallmarks

1207
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,760
of what I personally believe you need to do to do that thing,

1208
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,440
which is have a internal logic behind a cashflow,

1209
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,560
have a link back out to the sustaining platform,

1210
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,680
have like those incentive feeds in it and stuff,

1211
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,120
and have like a clear user, like I want to do X,

1212
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,960
I can do it here, here's how I do it.

1213
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,520
You know, I can bring in my NFT from over here,

1214
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,480
I can do, you know, it's all of those things

1215
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,440
like kind of in synergy, and then, oh,

1216
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,240
and Dowdow is required to do this and blah, blah, blah.

1217
00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:58,080
Right.

1218
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,840
That's, it's like a, to me anyway,

1219
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,200
maybe it looks incoherent to other people,

1220
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,480
but I think it's a coherent product picture.

1221
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,840
And I think it's part, I use the example over and over

1222
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,840
and again, not because it's something that obviously

1223
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,000
is near and dear to my heart,

1224
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,840
having spent a lot of time working on it,

1225
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,320
but I think because that's the kind of protocol

1226
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:22,320
we need to build around Dowdow is try and find,

1227
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,680
basically find ideas like that until one of them sticks,

1228
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,080
like something that works synergistically

1229
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,720
with this like best in class Dowdow tooling

1230
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,360
that brings users and then market the shit out of it.

1231
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,200
That's kind of my perspective, but then, you know,

1232
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,600
I'm a product, you know, I've come up from like

1233
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,000
the product engineering style of like the last 10 years

1234
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,440
of engineering where everybody's just like,

1235
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:47,920
oh, it's not about being smart,

1236
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:49,480
it's about finding the right product

1237
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,720
and market fit and shit, you know,

1238
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:53,040
and just getting told that, you know,

1239
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:54,800
you don't have to use functional programming.

1240
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,360
It's not, it doesn't matter that it's better,

1241
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,760
just write it in JavaScript, it's fine.

1242
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:00,840
Just get it done.

1243
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,520
Just get it done, just ship it, it's fine.

1244
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,520
Then a year later, it's just like, it's falling over,

1245
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:05,360
it's fine.

1246
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:06,560
It's fine, we can rewrite it.

1247
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,440
It's on fire, you've got to rewrite it, it's fine.

1248
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,320
That's right.

1249
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,600
I think the one thing we're really missing right now,

1250
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,960
like I was using HAL for a little bit, right?

1251
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,680
But I made the poor choice of using my ledger wallet

1252
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,960
as my HAL wallet.

1253
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,960
And so everything I had to do, I had to sign, right?

1254
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:27,920
And that sucked.

1255
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,840
I think that one thing we need to figure out some method for

1256
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,840
is like giving a browser some form of like auth Z access

1257
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,640
where the browser has a certain amount

1258
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,680
that it can use as like discretionary spending.

1259
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,400
So you can still hit, you know, just send,

1260
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,040
and it doesn't require you to actually like double click

1261
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,720
to confirm or to hit the ledger or something.

1262
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:55,600
I feel like there has to be some way of bridging that gap

1263
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,400
of like some types of transactions

1264
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,080
you're giving the browser to just do.

1265
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,240
Like maybe not even just a transaction,

1266
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:05,360
but maybe like, I don't know.

1267
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:06,200
I don't know.

1268
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,360
That's the only thing I think of right now is my example.

1269
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,440
We were from HAL data proof of concepts

1270
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,080
and like that where you essentially,

1271
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,680
you basically pre-auth an escrow for small amount of funds.

1272
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,840
So again, it's the microtransaction use case.

1273
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,280
It's gas fees use case.

1274
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,160
You basically just like, oh, boom, okay.

1275
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,960
Here's like a third of a Juno done.

1276
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,320
And then when you then interact with it again,

1277
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,040
you're basically interacting from memory of how it's

1278
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,840
something like this, you then interact with that contract.

1279
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,520
So it's kind of just like, okay, boom, okay.

1280
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:39,920
Oh, it's just done the thing.

1281
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:40,920
Okay, cool.

1282
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,600
And I think you probably still need to go,

1283
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,000
I think the only thing is you probably still need to go

1284
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,560
through a ledger because you had to sign

1285
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,360
the transaction from memory.

1286
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,360
But I can't remember, like it was pretty smooth.

1287
00:47:55,360 --> 00:48:00,000
So maybe it was actually some kind of switcheroo involved.

1288
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:00,840
It's so long ago.

1289
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,080
This was like, I don't know, last summer, maybe earlier.

1290
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:06,560
They just showed something because they were just like

1291
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,000
mucking around with like BB posts basically.

1292
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,360
And they were like, oh, okay, you could do this.

1293
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:13,240
That's pretty cool.

1294
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:15,120
The code's still on GitHub somewhere.

1295
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,040
Comma if it's in Howl's GitHub or if it's in Weaver's GitHub.

1296
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:21,320
I mean, that's a cool idea.

1297
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,160
You sometimes do that when you do cloud things

1298
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,560
where you prepay, let's say $100 or whatever.

1299
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,880
And then they suck that dry as you put server costs up.

1300
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:30,440
It's the same idea.

1301
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,080
That's how a cache works, isn't it?

1302
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:34,680
Yeah, yeah, that's how a cache works.

1303
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:35,600
Yeah, exactly.

1304
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,520
I passed 10th in there, didn't I?

1305
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,560
Well, yeah, I guess, yeah.

1306
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,520
But I think that type of use case is absolutely necessary.

1307
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,160
I think that there is too much expectation

1308
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,640
that in the crypto space in general,

1309
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,760
that every action you take requires like a full execution.

1310
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:00,480
Like it's objectively true that that is a bad user experience.

1311
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,840
There's a reason why in most like settings,

1312
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:03,920
things you change,

1313
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,040
they only take it like at the very end or whatever,

1314
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,160
or you don't even have to hit accept for it

1315
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,360
because people don't want to have to hit that many buttons.

1316
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,400
That's why there's such an argument of like iPhone

1317
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,120
versus Android, which one's easier based off of how many

1318
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,520
like interactions it takes to, I don't know,

1319
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,800
open up Google Maps or something, right?

1320
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,640
So like that is just such a small thing that like,

1321
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,760
obviously it makes sense that each transaction

1322
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,400
or each interaction requires a full acceptance

1323
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,440
because, you know, potentially some people have, you know,

1324
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:31,800
hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars

1325
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:32,640
in their account.

1326
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,120
They don't want to suck it dry,

1327
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:35,560
but there's gotta be an in-between.

1328
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,680
There's gotta be an in-between.

1329
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,040
Yeah, probably.

1330
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,600
I mean, I guess it all comes back to like,

1331
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,360
what is an account?

1332
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,120
What are the levels of escalation that are required to do?

1333
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,080
I mean, if you have like, so like,

1334
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,480
maybe a good example is like, if you have a bank account,

1335
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:57,480
you can have like a, I don't know what you guys call it

1336
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,840
in the US, checking account, whatever you have,

1337
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,680
like you basically can have like a cash card,

1338
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:03,960
which is like a debit card,

1339
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,000
and then you can have like a credit card.

1340
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,120
And then, you know, and actually,

1341
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,680
and also every bank account actually has a limit as well.

1342
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,680
It's just that it's usually quite relatively high.

1343
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,280
So I don't know, probably like a couple of thousand dollars.

1344
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,720
I don't know how many thousand pounds or dollars it is

1345
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:21,440
before your bank calls you up and goes,

1346
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,840
we've blocked this transaction.

1347
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,280
You need to authorize it properly,

1348
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,040
but it's a few thousand dollars, isn't it?

1349
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:27,760
If you've ever had to try and buy a car or something,

1350
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,240
I feel like that's the sort of thing where you need to do

1351
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:33,560
like a bank transfer in branch or something like that.

1352
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,960
So yeah, there's like, even within traditional banking,

1353
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,200
there is like an implicit escalation or contactless, right?

1354
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,920
Contactless, it used to be 25 pounds

1355
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,840
and then they upped it to a hundred, I think,

1356
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,040
but most banks allow you to set a level

1357
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,960
you're happy with against your card.

1358
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,840
So you can, again, you actually have user controls there

1359
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,640
over what is effectively what you're describing short-sleeve.

1360
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,720
Like if it's above 50, if it's above 50 pounds,

1361
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:02,240
then you can actually have a user control

1362
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:05,320
and then if it's below 50 pounds,

1363
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,200
then you've got to sign the transaction.

1364
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,640
If it's below whatever, but I mean, the flip side of that

1365
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:12,400
is like, would you want to be the person

1366
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,280
who implemented that bit of code?

1367
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:18,160
If it's below X amount of X denomination,

1368
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,160
then that would need one hell of an audit.

1369
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,960
Yeah, well, Andrew, I think we'd also need

1370
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,320
some level of notification system at that point.

1371
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,960
Right now, if I send a transaction on Kepler,

1372
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,200
there needs to be some sort of aggregate of,

1373
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,000
okay, so I've got this thing set up so that it,

1374
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,600
so I'm thinking like I can just hit go

1375
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,040
and it'll take out one June or whatever.

1376
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:41,560
But if something doesn't happen,

1377
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,160
then I can be notified somehow.

1378
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,080
Cause that I think there should be some level of like,

1379
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:47,720
not at central location,

1380
00:51:47,720 --> 00:51:50,160
but there should be like maybe built into wallets.

1381
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:51,400
But that's also something I've been thinking about

1382
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,000
with the whole Venmo thing I've been thinking about building

1383
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,200
where like, if someone sends you a request,

1384
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,120
then like you need to be able to find out how somehow

1385
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:00,640
without actually creating like a bot

1386
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,320
that monitors the chain.

1387
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,120
But God, user experiences are so difficult.

1388
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:06,840
That's why I'm a backend engineer.

1389
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,440
Well, I think you've also hit on something,

1390
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,800
which is like at the end of the,

1391
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:12,640
you can't stay away.

1392
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:13,960
Welcome, welcome.

1393
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:14,880
Where are you?

1394
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,600
Okay, at the end of the day,

1395
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,920
like most successful like use cases

1396
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,080
that use the interchange that aren't,

1397
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:25,760
so the DALS is an interesting one, right?

1398
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,600
Because it could literally be a group of nerds

1399
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,760
on the internet who are completely across jurisdictions

1400
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:31,400
and will never meet each other, right?

1401
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:32,320
It's like a pure,

1402
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,880
you can have like totally pure online interactions

1403
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:36,280
that are completely novel,

1404
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,400
that just didn't exist 10 years ago,

1405
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,200
didn't exist 15 years ago.

1406
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,440
Well, did exist because they were IRC channels back then,

1407
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,320
but like they have a new expression, right?

1408
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,200
But then there's all these other use cases

1409
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,600
where it's just like, oh,

1410
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,080
it's basically a web two company,

1411
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,440
but they, it would make more sense to model their business

1412
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,720
as an incentive model, like you're describing, like Venmo.

1413
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:01,600
Like the thing that Peter Sunday did after Pirate Bay,

1414
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,040
Flatter, where it's micro payments to content,

1415
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,960
where you just hit a little micro payment button

1416
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:08,800
on a piece of content you liked on the internet,

1417
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:10,320
it was just a little in bed.

1418
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,440
It didn't work because the banks,

1419
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,480
it's really, really expensive to do micro payments,

1420
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,720
but that is an amazing crypto use case right there

1421
00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:20,240
and way ahead of his time.

1422
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:22,800
Flatter would work as crypto,

1423
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,320
but do you give a shit that it's a blockchain?

1424
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,440
No, that's just, that is just how it's implemented.

1425
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:30,800
The majority of that code base

1426
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,200
is a web server serving the embed

1427
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,960
and then a web socket notification.

1428
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,720
So it's kind of like to your point where you're like,

1429
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:40,000
okay, well, we need notifications

1430
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,000
when you need this other stuff.

1431
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,960
You're like, well, a lot of these actually

1432
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,720
potentially quite successful use cases,

1433
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:47,400
which can now be built with blockchain

1434
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,200
that couldn't have been built 10 years ago,

1435
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,880
a lot of them will be not blockchain for their users.

1436
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,840
They won't see it as blockchain.

1437
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,240
And the actual blockchain component,

1438
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:00,640
that maybe there's a smart contract there somewhere,

1439
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,960
but the majority of their stack will also not be blockchain.

1440
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:04,680
It will be a web socket client.

1441
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,600
It will be a web server serving an embed.

1442
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,520
It will be some kind of streaming store

1443
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:11,560
just reconciling the messages.

1444
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,000
But at some point there's a smart contract in there,

1445
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:14,920
but who gives a shit?

1446
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,600
This is why I'm just not,

1447
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,960
again, I'm not shitty about central bank digital currencies

1448
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:21,640
for the same reason, because it's like,

1449
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,360
who gives a shit what the micro payments in?

1450
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:25,040
The interesting thing is the blockchain, right?

1451
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,520
Is the technology and maybe IBC as well.

1452
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,680
Well, yeah, I mean, it's very rare

1453
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,960
that I learned that a certain app that I'm using

1454
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:36,000
has a specific database.

1455
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,280
And I'm like, wow, if I'm using Lyft and I find,

1456
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:40,760
well, okay, if I'm using Lyft and I find out

1457
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,520
it's running on like MongoDB, I'll be a little surprised.

1458
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,320
I'd be like, well, I think it's scaled pretty well.

1459
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:46,960
All right, well done.

1460
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:48,480
Or SQLite or something.

1461
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:49,840
But like that's such a thing.

1462
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,280
Like if I hear- SQLite3, you kidding?

1463
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:53,600
Exactly.

1464
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:54,960
Yeah, if I hear things on Postgres,

1465
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:56,200
I'm like, I don't care.

1466
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:57,920
And it should be the same thing with blockchain.

1467
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,120
It should be, I don't care, it's just the database.

1468
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,720
Like, yeah, it enables all sorts of cool things,

1469
00:55:03,720 --> 00:55:06,040
but for the end user, do not care.

1470
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:07,840
I do not care.

1471
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,440
Well, I felt that way about challenger banks.

1472
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,040
Like, so I did a lot of stuff on like data engineering.

1473
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:14,920
Like I've had a lot of my backgrounds

1474
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:15,740
and that sort of stuff.

1475
00:55:15,740 --> 00:55:17,680
Like streaming data stores where you can,

1476
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:20,160
you can basically just mash through

1477
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,200
millions of transactions a second

1478
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:23,880
and then just store them all in Cassandra

1479
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:24,720
and then happy days.

1480
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:27,880
Like it's so much faster than any other database technology.

1481
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,200
And it's just like, it's magic.

1482
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,680
If you ever have to deal with that kind of volume,

1483
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:35,520
you're like, oh my God, this is really quick.

1484
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,200
And you get like snappy finality and everything

1485
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,240
and it settles and it's what the fuck?

1486
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:42,080
Like, and you're like, you see how slow like, you know,

1487
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,280
banks were like 10 years ago at this stuff.

1488
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:48,160
And then like things like Monzo, like a challenger bank,

1489
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,720
you're like, fuck, it's really, the UX is great.

1490
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:51,800
Like you literally pay somebody

1491
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:53,000
and their phone pings next to you.

1492
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:53,840
It's like you've been paid

1493
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,400
and the transaction settled and you're like,

1494
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:57,760
and you go like, look at their job ads

1495
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,200
and you're like fucking Apache Kafka, Apache Cassandra.

1496
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:01,520
And you're like, like you say,

1497
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,120
it's one of those times where you're like,

1498
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:04,520
I am actually a little bit impressed

1499
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,960
at your technology stack in 2014 or whatever that was.

1500
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,880
Whereas now if you were like,

1501
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,400
I'm building a challenger bank, people would be like,

1502
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,160
oh, right, so you can use a streaming store

1503
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:15,000
and a database, right?

1504
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:15,820
Yeah, of course you are.

1505
00:56:15,820 --> 00:56:18,040
Because there is, that is the correct way to build this thing.

1506
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,000
And like, maybe in 10 years, that would be the case.

1507
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,100
It'd be like, we're building this thing.

1508
00:56:22,100 --> 00:56:24,320
Oh, is that a ledger underneath it?

1509
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:26,280
Yeah, yeah, of course it's a ledger, duh.

1510
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,640
Exactly, yeah, we're just not quite to that point yet.

1511
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:30,560
But that's the thing, right?

1512
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,000
It's like, there's so many tech questions and tech answers

1513
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:34,960
and a lot of us are so enthusiastic

1514
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,280
that we're willing to like squint away

1515
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,820
the shitty user experience side of things.

1516
00:56:39,820 --> 00:56:42,220
Like using a ledger, I like my ledger.

1517
00:56:42,220 --> 00:56:44,400
Like it's got cool stickers on it and stuff.

1518
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:45,920
Like, come on now.

1519
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:46,840
But not for everything.

1520
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:47,680
Let's be real.

1521
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,080
One of the things you can say is the password is 0000.

1522
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,160
Yeah, but let's be real.

1523
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:57,480
Most people don't wanna spend $180 or whatever I spent

1524
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:02,280
on my Ledger Nano X just to hold crypto.

1525
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:07,280
Like I don't have $180 wallet for my credit cards and stuff.

1526
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,280
And like, I guarantee you my credit limit in those

1527
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,880
and that wallet is higher than all the crypto I have.

1528
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,680
So it's like, there's so many user experiences.

1529
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:17,880
That's only because the bear market is not your fault,

1530
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,480
sure as hell, you are better than that.

1531
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:20,320
You are better than that.

1532
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,000
Like I hate to tell you I'm your friend,

1533
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:23,760
but it's not your fault.

1534
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,400
Yeah, exactly.

1535
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:28,320
But also like you go to a store

1536
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:32,000
and you bust out your wallet one time at the very end,

1537
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,680
right, you bust out one time versus,

1538
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,320
oh, I wanna go make a swap on Osmosis.

1539
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:37,760
Let's transfer the Juno.

1540
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,080
So that's one transaction just to do IBC over.

1541
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,440
Let's do the swap and then let's perhaps IBC out the Atom

1542
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:44,360
and then send it to Coinbase.

1543
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,640
So four transactions to like get money out or something.

1544
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,040
Right?

1545
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:50,040
It's just a completely different thing.

1546
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:51,880
Would you remember like early days,

1547
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,440
no, not super early days, but early days of Bitcoin

1548
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,840
when you could just transfer Bitcoin

1549
00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:59,200
via the mobile app with the QR codes?

1550
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,680
Like you created a wallet on green wallets

1551
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:02,600
or something like that and you were like,

1552
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:04,760
you showed somebody a thing, you approved it

1553
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:06,400
and it was like, bam.

1554
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:10,160
Like friend, friend, oh, the show.

1555
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,480
I'm pretty sure this was actually Ben Davis,

1556
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:14,920
friend of the show.

1557
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:16,760
So I mentioned Monzo earlier, Challenger Bank,

1558
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,880
kind of archetypal making the UX and stuff good.

1559
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:22,800
Everything went contactless with them straight away.

1560
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,120
It was just like tap, you paid, happy days.

1561
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:25,960
Amazing.

1562
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,160
One of the founders was a Bitcoin maxi.

1563
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,120
It was like a stealth Bitcoin maxi.

1564
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,080
And like the first time I used Monzo,

1565
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:36,360
I was like, this is the first time I've used a bank

1566
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,160
where it feels like that.

1567
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:39,360
Cause obviously the problem with Bitcoin

1568
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,400
is that it's super slick until you're like,

1569
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:42,640
oh, the money hasn't arrived yet.

1570
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:44,920
And it's like, even in 2011, 2012, it was like,

1571
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,440
oh yeah, it needs like eight, what's it called?

1572
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:48,960
Like confirmations.

1573
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:49,800
Oh, okay.

1574
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:51,560
It's so close to perfect.

1575
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,800
But it turned out that there were people watching that

1576
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,080
and were like, wow, this is really good,

1577
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,160
except that what people want to see is sub second finality.

1578
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,480
And they went, shit, I can do that with Patrick Cassandra.

1579
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,720
Like, well, he's just give people a QR code

1580
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,080
and they will fucking sign up in droves.

1581
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:06,920
Okay, cool.

1582
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:08,640
I'm going to go get our bank license.

1583
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:09,480
They did it.

1584
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:10,400
That bank is Monzo.

1585
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,400
It's a million dollar business.

1586
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:13,240
That's funny.

1587
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:14,080
And like, yeah, it turned out that guy's,

1588
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:15,600
I'm pretty sure he's like a stealth Bitcoin maxier,

1589
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:16,440
something like that.

1590
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:17,280
I was having this conversation with somebody

1591
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:19,440
and they were like, I'm pretty sure it was Ben Davis,

1592
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,760
friend of the show who like went and did the research

1593
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:23,320
and was like, oh yeah, they totally were.

1594
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,360
It's like, oh yeah.

1595
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:26,200
There you go.

1596
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:27,520
Makes sense.

1597
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:28,360
So you're right.

1598
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,080
Like UX is everything, man.

1599
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:30,920
Going back to the Dow thing,

1600
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,880
it's exactly what I was trying to say before is like,

1601
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,360
it's tough to just randomly keep adding shit

1602
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:40,360
until you have a clear direction on some of these UX pieces.

1603
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,120
And I think it's easier for Dow Dow

1604
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:44,240
than it is for Howell.

1605
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,680
Howell from a consumer perspective,

1606
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:47,520
you have a lot of voices,

1607
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,520
but Dow Dow really is like, you're really,

1608
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,840
I mean, you're marketing to consumers,

1609
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:53,080
like individuals as well.

1610
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,480
You're primarily marketing to chains or organizations

1611
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:59,000
or other types of larger groups that already have a,

1612
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:00,080
they have a management problem, right?

1613
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,200
They have an organization and communication

1614
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:03,440
and voting problem.

1615
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,160
And I think even spending some time to identify

1616
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:08,000
who those possibly could be,

1617
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:09,240
whether they're in the cosmos or out,

1618
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,320
and then coming up with a list of like,

1619
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:12,560
how do you guys deal with this?

1620
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:13,400
What are the challenges?

1621
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,360
Like a little bit of ideation there

1622
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:19,440
and then come back and build a roadmap towards that.

1623
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,200
I do think that if you just keep adding shit,

1624
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,800
like Jake and I were talking about this actually

1625
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:25,440
at ETHNR a little bit is like,

1626
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,840
is there's so much there and it's so wide open

1627
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,560
that people, it makes it very difficult

1628
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,000
to take this massive amount of functionality

1629
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,720
and apply it to the problems that they have.

1630
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,800
And like, how do you, he's like,

1631
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,280
yeah, we're gonna create like a Dow how-to

1632
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:42,120
and those types of things.

1633
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:43,360
I mean, that's somewhat beneficial,

1634
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,720
but like some repeatable patterns, right?

1635
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:49,960
And actually coming back to Schulte's Drupal example,

1636
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,760
really what this is is almost like Drupal themes.

1637
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:54,400
Like you need like Dow-Dow themes.

1638
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,320
You need to have pre-built kind of themes

1639
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:58,640
for here's a large organization has a board problem.

1640
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,680
Here's an individual who wants to figure out voting for-

1641
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:02,520
You need Clippy.

1642
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:04,080
You need Clippy for like a condo.

1643
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:07,320
You make Jake is like, it made Jake is like Clippy.

1644
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,480
It looks like he's- For like a condo association, right?

1645
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:11,720
The other thing I thought about this too is like,

1646
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,160
I was talking to the guys from Loyal.

1647
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,520
We had Mike Waters, he's been on like,

1648
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,400
or Hi-Wall, I forget what his actual name is,

1649
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,120
but Mike's been on, he's been in the chat here

1650
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,440
and like they're building like a,

1651
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:27,520
they're building a structure for loyalty rewards

1652
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,320
that eventually might have value

1653
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:31,960
and you can like buy from multiple sites

1654
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,040
and then use those loyalty rewards across multiple sites.

1655
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:35,720
So right now they're not doing any of that.

1656
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,560
Like they have it where each individual site,

1657
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:41,200
if you buy something out of an individual site,

1658
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:43,400
you get these Loyal, you get LYL behind the scenes.

1659
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:47,520
And so they're actually creating wallets behind the scenes

1660
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:48,600
on the API side.

1661
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:49,840
So from the end user perspective,

1662
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:51,800
all they have is a login to a website, right?

1663
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:53,720
For the piece.

1664
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:54,560
Then behind the scenes,

1665
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:56,800
they're actually creating a mnemonic behind the scenes.

1666
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:01,520
They are applying those Loyals after like 31 days

1667
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:02,720
to get outside the return period

1668
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:04,040
because they can't pull them out.

1669
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:05,160
And then it sits in the wallet.

1670
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:06,800
Then downstream, so what they're doing is like,

1671
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,400
as people are buying this stuff,

1672
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:09,720
or as they're buying off these e-comm sites,

1673
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:11,880
they're basically creating these hidden wallets

1674
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:12,800
of this stuff.

1675
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:14,520
So if you go back to the site and see you have them,

1676
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,800
you can apply them, you can use those tokens or discount.

1677
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:19,320
And the next time you purchase something, et cetera, et

1678
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:20,160
cetera.

1679
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,080
And then downstream, what they're like thinking about is

1680
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,240
like, as this grows, how do we turn this web two

1681
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,760
slash web two problem that has a web three component

1682
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,440
to it today, but it's hidden into something that maybe

1683
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:32,800
now you can use them across site

1684
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:34,160
and you can build a market around them

1685
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:35,320
and like all those other types of things.

1686
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,480
And so they're kind of like stealth mode

1687
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:39,840
where people are using this, but they're not really sure.

1688
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,000
Like this same thing, that same idea,

1689
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:43,560
you could apply to Doudou.

1690
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,320
Like I don't need a wallet.

1691
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:47,320
Like the wallet piece is maybe for me,

1692
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:48,640
cause I'm an experienced user.

1693
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,960
But if I want to build a condo association that has,

1694
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,040
everybody just logs in with their Gmail account

1695
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:56,280
or whatever the hell it is, but behind the scenes,

1696
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:58,760
you're creating mnemonics and you have it in Doudou

1697
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:01,440
and like there's voting there and there's like the structure

1698
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,400
and I can present that in a way that is extremely easy

1699
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:06,240
for the user.

1700
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:07,080
Totally works.

1701
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:08,680
Like, and then maybe down the stream,

1702
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:10,440
maybe those individuals can, you know,

1703
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:11,640
they're only Doudou tokens, right?

1704
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:12,880
So they can get those mnemonics,

1705
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:14,800
they can do other things with them or they can,

1706
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:15,680
I don't know, whatever the hell they want to do.

1707
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:17,520
But like, this is a good web,

1708
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:19,560
like there's might be opportunities to,

1709
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:20,880
cause this user experience piece

1710
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:22,520
that Shultze is talking about is exactly right.

1711
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,880
Like how do you get everybody who's going to use that

1712
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:27,400
into this web three world or walk around with ledgers

1713
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:28,360
to vote on stuff?

1714
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,240
Like maybe that never happens, but maybe in some pieces,

1715
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:34,800
the technology can still be extremely useful,

1716
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,600
even though we might have to have a bridge, you know,

1717
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:39,240
before people are actually walking around with a ledger

1718
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,120
attached to their belt buckle.

1719
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,040
Everything you described then just sounded like

1720
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:44,760
custodial keys, right?

1721
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:46,200
Yeah, it's exactly what it is.

1722
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:47,600
Yeah, it's totally what it is.

1723
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,760
I was just like the regulation alarm.

1724
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:50,600
It's just like, I'm shocked.

1725
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,320
Why, I'm talking about Doudou, Doudou tokens have no value.

1726
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:55,240
There's no regulation here.

1727
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:56,520
There's no securities here.

1728
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,400
Same thing in, same thing I was talking about with Loyal.

1729
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,200
Like those things are just, there's custodial keys

1730
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:02,880
I'm just using as a function to build it.

1731
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:06,520
But if you literally, if you sit around until that world

1732
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:08,880
gets here, we're all long gone.

1733
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:13,040
Like it's like that, like to be able to use it like as a,

1734
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,280
as what, as like the Fortune 5 organization is gonna use it

1735
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:18,440
with shareholders to be able to vote on a Dow,

1736
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:23,280
like for board members through, with a ledger,

1737
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:25,200
like is that gonna happen in our lifetimes?

1738
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:26,040
Like, I don't know.

1739
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:27,000
Yeah, I forgot about it.

1740
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,960
No, but see, fine, one comment and you build up.

1741
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:31,520
Rock master.

1742
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:32,640
You made him upset.

1743
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,440
It's actually, it's actually cold as shit out here.

1744
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:37,920
Where are you?

1745
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:38,760
Where are you?

1746
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,040
Streets of Tampa.

1747
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:42,920
I'm like outside, I'm at a cafe entrance.

1748
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:44,880
So it's like people like walking in and out,

1749
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:46,280
but the music's inside.

1750
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:48,880
So I couldn't really talk in there.

1751
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,960
So it's like, you know, fucking zero degrees out here.

1752
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,120
And yeah, interesting.

1753
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:56,800
Somehow it's better with the Australian shoved

1754
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:57,960
in zero degree.

1755
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,360
Usually you're coming from like a beach or something.

1756
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:02,760
Yeah, this is not a safari.

1757
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:05,040
He looks really uncomfortable.

1758
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:05,880
He does, I know.

1759
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:07,240
Like really uncomfortable.

1760
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,000
Yeah, I'm literally gonna bail in a second.

1761
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:10,760
I just like get in the way of someone's pram.

1762
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:13,160
They're like, I might get this fucking thing around you.

1763
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:15,520
So yeah, I don't know.

1764
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:19,760
I might go back to Union Station and explode.

1765
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,840
You're training out today or what are you training out?

1766
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,160
Trains at seven to Chicago.

1767
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:27,000
Yeah.

1768
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:28,720
Oh, Chicago, neat.

1769
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:29,800
Yeah, going to Chicago

1770
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,040
and then spend a few days in Chicago

1771
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:33,600
and then go to New Orleans

1772
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,280
and then go along that Southern area back over to LA.

1773
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:40,040
Are you training down to New Orleans or are you flying?

1774
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:42,160
I got an Amtrak pass, man.

1775
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:44,600
Just like ripping on trains everywhere.

1776
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:45,520
I'm so jealous.

1777
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:47,440
I really want to do the Southern Chief.

1778
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,080
Yeah, I'm gonna be on it.

1779
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,560
So no sleeper.

1780
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:54,800
I'm sick of that fucking thing.

1781
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:56,520
Oh, you're missing, you're not in sleep.

1782
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:58,920
The sleep is fucking awesome.

1783
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,440
Sleeper is like literally like a leg,

1784
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:06,560
like from Denver to Chicago, a sleep is like 1600 bucks.

1785
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:08,200
Yeah, you need to put that shit away in advance.

1786
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:10,200
It's not that expensive, it's not too bad.

1787
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:12,640
I almost went on the,

1788
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:15,440
so I almost went on the National Parks

1789
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,080
vacation tour on Amtrak, which is like-

1790
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,760
Oh, where you do the glacier builder?

1791
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,600
Yeah, you go like, it's all the National Parks

1792
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:26,160
on the western side, in the west.

1793
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:27,000
And-

1794
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:28,440
That's basically where the National Parks are.

1795
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:32,280
Yeah, but it was like five and a half grand

1796
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:33,680
at short notice, which is like-

1797
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:34,600
Oh, that's expensive.

1798
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:35,840
I don't know if the price has gone up,

1799
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:37,240
that's a fucking lot more than I paid

1800
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:39,200
to buy a few Amtrak passes.

1801
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:42,840
Well, it was 500 bucks for a 10 segment pass,

1802
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:47,840
but it was like five and a half grand for this nine days.

1803
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:52,840
And I was like, hmm, yeah, I'm not baller, so fuck that.

1804
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:56,360
I mean, the sad thing is you are missing probably,

1805
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:57,400
I've obviously not done the other ones,

1806
01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:58,760
I'm sure they're really fucking sick

1807
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:03,000
and I'm totally jealous, but like the Zephyr

1808
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,040
to California from Denver is like fucking cool.

1809
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:07,880
That's what I'm getting on just soon.

1810
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:08,720
Yeah.

1811
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:09,920
Wait, you go to California first?

1812
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:11,520
I thought you just said you were going to Chicago.

1813
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:13,160
No, no, but it's the Zephyr line.

1814
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:14,600
Well, I'm not coming from California though.

1815
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:15,440
It's like Denver to-

1816
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,440
Yeah, I'm saying if you go through the Rockies,

1817
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:22,080
go the other way, cause that's really fucking cool.

1818
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,080
Yes, I'm not sure what the line's called,

1819
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:25,960
but there's another line that's just further south

1820
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:27,680
that goes all the way back across.

1821
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:28,960
Yeah, the Southern Chief one.

1822
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:30,600
Yeah, so I hope it goes to Austin.

1823
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,080
I want to go at least near Austin.

1824
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:34,240
So I want to go to Austin on the way back,

1825
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:35,720
but I'm really looking forward

1826
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,320
to getting some fucking barbecue, man.

1827
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:42,360
You're going to go up the West coast from LA?

1828
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:46,320
No, so I'm flying out of LA.

1829
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:47,160
Yeah.

1830
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,560
Well, that's the train chat segment of the show.

1831
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:52,400
Completely.

1832
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,120
I'm very, very jealous.

1833
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:57,680
I think I can go now cause I'm freezing my ass off.

1834
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:00,080
Well, enjoy the observation car.

1835
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:03,720
Yeah, so I hear the cafe is like not popular,

1836
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,880
but it's the one with the, it's got like the glass roof.

1837
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:08,640
Yeah, that's the place to be.

1838
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:09,720
Also, if it's really quiet,

1839
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:11,680
quite often the train guard will hang out there.

1840
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:14,400
And if they like know the line really well,

1841
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:16,680
like we, a couple of times the train guard was just like,

1842
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:18,120
Hey, do you want to know the history of this place?

1843
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:19,760
And you're like, sure.

1844
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:20,600
Yeah, why not?

1845
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:21,960
And they just like told stories.

1846
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:23,360
And it was like, oh, it's actually quite,

1847
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:24,400
you're actually quite knowledgeable.

1848
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:25,960
They're like, yeah, I've been fucking,

1849
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:28,400
I'm a train guard on this train for 10 years.

1850
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:30,920
And I really fucking like local history and trains.

1851
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:31,760
Go figure.

1852
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:33,640
And you're like, yep, okay, that, that,

1853
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:34,640
that does check out.

1854
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:35,480
That does check out.

1855
01:08:35,480 --> 01:08:36,920
They're like, I can give you a reading list if you like.

1856
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:40,200
And you're like, okay, that's where I jump off.

1857
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:43,600
I'm actually not worried about the,

1858
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,320
about the Utah train system, but thank you very much.

1859
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:47,720
That is.

1860
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,880
So before I bail here,

1861
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:52,760
I was, I was photobombing people at East Denver.

1862
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,840
And I got in one day with funky.

1863
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:57,840
So I think thanks funky.

1864
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,960
I'll treasure that photo bomb always as well.

1865
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:03,680
So anyway, guys, take it easy.

1866
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:05,400
I'm going to go get in some warm area

1867
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:06,240
before I fucking die.

1868
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:07,720
Safe travels, dude.

1869
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:08,560
Cool. Have fun.

1870
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:09,960
Thanks for stopping in.

1871
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:10,800
See you.

1872
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:28,560
So hanging out.