0:00
laughs ah dip right anyway um oh he has actually pressed the button
0:14
[Music] [Applause]
0:19
[Music] uh hello and welcome to game of nodes a
0:25
weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams this week we've got Zeke and Noah from Dao Dao
0:31
we're going to talk Dao Dao to DAL harder and uh a variety of other things
0:38
have happened in the last week obviously we've you know basically completely because of this podcast the hottest meme
0:44
in the cosmos is the corporate meme I think yeah that's basically basically gamer nodes
0:53
well people just people went in on that one so lock pain and I got shamed for the corporate for using the corporate
0:59
somebody was not a fan huh I had that in the spreadsheet she will see I saw it further down the list she'll see come on
1:06
bro okay okay
1:11
come on yes so what tell us what I saw was somebody
1:19
on Twitter having a go at you right but what was the what was the deal what was the problem
1:25
you know I'm not really sure what what it seemed like was it seemed like the issue was that other
1:32
nfts like people can just buy into and therefore like it's accessible to anyone whereas the corporate stuff it wasn't an
1:39
nft and therefore only the in-crowd could use it that's my read on what he was saying and I was kind of like
1:47
but this is all voluntary if you ask for it then you will receive so that makes
1:52
it kind of more accessible yeah it was really really strange argument I think what he's saying is
1:59
that validate his having like just fun was not
2:05
professional and that it shouldn't be like done and so that they were undelegating but
2:13
yeah you're right that was definitely part of it as well of like the other stuff it's all fun and games but I I delegate to you because I want a
2:19
professional outfit I forgot about that aspect of it clearly not a watcher of this show
2:25
clearly I've never seen games yeah we I definitely lose um delegations
2:32
every Wednesday at 2100 years it's like so so the argument is like oh because
2:37
this is actually spontaneous internet culture and I can't financially engage with it to buy uh to Ministry nft that
2:45
will decline in value I feel get kept and excluded look nothing against the dude it didn't
2:52
seem like what he was saying made much sense to us but I'm sure he's got his own reasons for wanting a professional
2:59
validator that doesn't have fun where's the real null
3:06
it's like evasion of the Body Snatchers over there in Australia what's going on I'm where I'm wearing my corporate
3:11
attire today I have to be more professional so what you're saying is that if people
3:16
want to undelegate from the unprofessional uh Goose five validators they can redelegate to
3:24
King nodes yeah because it's still it's still Christmas here yeah what the [ __ ] it's
3:29
[ __ ] yeah [Laughter] is that a Christmas tree it is Christmas
3:35
tree with four inches of dust on it so um I'm actually like I'm back in
3:42
remember the the place where my um my internet always used to [ __ ] up I'm back in that town and back in that house it's
3:50
like this other dude's house it's actually that's where I was outside
3:55
it was the internet was [ __ ] up bad so I was out like hanging it in a tree so it's it's pretty good now yeah so
4:01
your phone's your phone's up the tree and yeah my phone's outside in the tree
4:12
another man who's been shamed for his corporate affiliation yep love it uh
4:19
I really want to see the rest of Zeke's room there like uh well the closets the
4:25
closet well is he in the closet like it's yes you've been in closets right that's a
4:31
closet like I know what a closet looks like it looks like he's ranted a very small amount of office space and just
4:37
like hung everything he owns on the walls yeah I I give you a full tour of matter
4:43
this is my closet office look at that oh wow
4:50
legitimately just a walk-in closet this is my this is my room yeah okay my
4:57
bike just bike all right this is what I look like wow is it pretty good
5:04
they're like is there a bedroom is there a bathroom there is this like it's a
5:09
window oh no no I've got it that there's a living room as well this is this is my office suite as they say
5:17
they're in the bathroom around the corner right I'm so confused man is this is
5:24
this attic like is this that college or something this is a adult living situation I know
5:33
in other countries that aren't Australia they have two things right they have a shortage of space and they also have
5:40
buildings that are more than one story um like it's wild right you should
5:48
really Denver is going to blow your mind there's a lot of places there that uh three four stories this house has five
5:57
bedrooms and no one lives here Australia Australia
6:02
how much does it cost I don't know it doesn't cost me anything I just I called the dude one day and
6:09
asked him if I could stay here when I'm in town and he said yes it's like a friend of a friend and he's never here he's a helicopter mechanic well
6:18
yeah it's like it's it's pretty the Christmas tree okay so there's like it's
6:24
on a farm too it's like whoa you look at your ass at your house oh my
6:31
God friend of a friend's house yeah holy [ __ ] you love grass
6:44
this is the goal right here there it is always come from like unique locations
6:50
every week yeah to be fair you've you guys have got like a lot of grassland in
6:56
the midwest you could go to you know you get yourself a podcast from the farm
7:02
wouldn't have to be in a closet that's an office
7:07
sorry the walking office
7:13
did he see a kangaroo or something out there no I think I think there's an oh man in there all right there's a there's
7:21
a bong on the Shelf today
7:27
it's invisible for us our viewership perfect Zeke that's your that's your
7:32
inspiration part of the front end right from the inspiration pipe actually yeah
7:40
most most of my things I do just just chilling in the closet ripping the bong oh yeah I went on the keyboard
7:47
I feel like a lot of my memories of the West Coast of the last I don't know well since legalization have been we're doing
7:54
something in something and of course smoking weed just like oh yeah we were in like
8:00
Dolores Park oh yeah we were smoking weed and there were some cops
8:06
they're just just off the legal I think it was like shortly after legalization I went over and that happened where there
8:13
were like cops and I just had this sudden [ __ ] moment where I was like oh [ __ ] I'm going to American jail
8:19
and I remember and I remember like everybody around me was totally calm and I was like everywhere I was calm
8:24
everybody it's because it's legal we're all good I'm not going to the big house
8:31
touch me um but yeah uh so hey you know what I've got a question
8:37
because you know we could talk about dial but I I'm killing a bit I could have asked I could have asked you sir
8:43
but I could have asked short C uh how are you guys like in the US do you have
8:48
honey laundering honey I'm sorry yeah you know like honey like bee honey
8:54
yeah yes right do you have do you have counterfeit honey is that like a big problem for you guys I haven't even
9:00
heard of that I can't say I've heard of it yeah like when you buy honey what does it say on the on the pack like does
9:05
it says it usually says honey but it could be it says honey I've never I've never actually tested
9:11
yeah I've never tested my honey yeah all right so the phrase you're talking about like sugar paste or some [ __ ]
9:17
where they've like manufactured honey yeah right right so so a lot of a lot of
9:22
Honey is fake honey Isn't it but I was kind of wondering like I was just okay one of the many things I was doing we
9:28
were talking about this before the show one there are a lot of things I should have done today I spent an hour photoshopping at Gary Larson [ __ ] post
9:35
one of the many things I did today instead of working was I was just thinking about honey and I was like
9:41
can you sell counterfeit honey in America and get away with it and so I thought hey what a great topic for a
9:47
validated where did the honey piece come from that Gary lotion is full of chickens
9:53
yeah yeah no but it's like a farm and then bees I guess okay and then I I had
9:59
to be fair and then I had some some toast with honey that was great highlight of the day was it real honey
10:05
yeah yeah Scottish Scottish single origin honey
10:19
we get a lot of fake maple syrup here which is like yes there is fake maple
10:25
syrup yes yeah we get that it's just it's just fake in the sense that you purchased it it's truly maple syrup and
10:33
then it reveals itself oh [ __ ] this is [ __ ] brown Water yeah I guess it's a
10:38
sugar syrup isn't it basically yeah there's fresh corn syrup yeah there is maple so they they do write at something
10:46
different on the on the package it's like Maple off flavored syrup maple flavored syrup and then maple syrup yeah
10:53
so the maple flavored cereal yeah it's like you know flavored real
10:59
small but that that [ __ ] is just sugar water thick sugar water with like some flavor right whereas the other [ __ ]
11:06
comes from actual trees yeah I haven't heard why is there a viewership going to [ __ ] two
11:21
there's more people in the chat what the hell just because we're adulterating our honey it doesn't mean that we should be
11:27
discriminated against um we we started out at seven and went to two for real quick
11:42
really fast do they actually call it just going well
11:49
Ben Davis is just going to uh confirm that he has and in fact had honey for breakfast and not gonna feed honey
11:56
I mean you should go you should you should check that so I don't know about American packaging laws but in in Europe
12:04
I think in Europe it's also changed so Britain had the old European system and I think there's now a new European
12:10
system but because we did that really stupid thing in 2016 we've now only got the old one what they what they have to
12:16
do is say where it's from and if it's a blend and if it's a blend
12:21
it's fake because you have to say you don't have to say the proportions
12:26
right so you just say oh it's a blend of honey from somewhere in Europe where
12:34
somewhere from outside of Europe where and there's there's some like hilarious
12:39
stuff there's I think it's China it's I think it's like China specifically you know the thing about how Italy exports
12:46
something like four times as much olive oil as it has the capacity in olive trees that actually export right so
12:54
you're like okay um where they're like their their honey
12:59
production has gone up by like four times but the number of commercially kept beehives hasn't increased for like
13:04
15 years so you're like those bees are clocking in a lot of extra yeah
13:15
yeah exactly the bees the bees are just clocking in extra shifts you know they're doing the whole seven what is that the crazy guy from AliExpress is it
13:22
seven seventh seven seven fourteen or whatever that thing is where
13:27
you work 14 hours a day seven days a week that's the beat basically
13:33
uh then then production production can't this is what I'm talking about see Ben Davis
13:39
it's fake honey okay like all I'm saying right is like go go find some actual
13:45
honey from a beekeeper and it's really [ __ ] expensive by the way that's a really good way
13:51
yeah well so there's like um I don't know like organic honey in the
13:56
supermarket or from like a farm shop would be about four pounds like basically about five six dollars honey
14:01
that's come from a farm or a beekeeper will probably cost between six pounds
14:07
maybe an eight pounds so that's like about ten dollars uh get one of the ones that's like ten
14:13
dollars from a from an actual beekeeper and taste it and you'll be like okay
14:19
that's what honey tastes like oh my God like you're like oh my God I think I've just been eating okay honey for the last
14:25
this is how much worse is it uh it tastes the
14:33
same [ __ ] same no it's really different and the consistency is really different as well like it's not as um sticky
14:42
it kind of like tips off the well it depends what the bee where the bees are like what they primarily like kind of
14:47
forage on and stuff as well like um like it differently you can definitely get like flavored Honeys and
14:53
stuff depending on what regions and and that you get them from yeah if you get like honey in the south of France from a
14:59
proper you know whatever it will taste totally different because it'll be like I don't know what other plants they have
15:05
with the south of France the dude I get my honey from like well
15:11
last time you know yeah you know you're in the bush when you got a honey dude
15:19
like walking up to this guy and tapping above the shoulder and being like all right you were the only one here with a
15:27
honey guy let me tell you that I know that for sure I mean the the last time I saw my honey dude he gave me 10 liters of honey so I
15:33
haven't seen him for like three years he did he just gave me like you know the blue Jerry cans that you have it's just
15:41
like a water water bottle it's basically like a blue a 10 liter Jerry full of honey
15:46
um but it it tastes like yellow box and like summer what is yellow box it's like a tree it's
15:55
a jellyfish well it's something that kills you it's Australia isn't it yeah
16:02
yeah yellow box is a species of Timber over here it's like Smoky is it a
16:09
eucalyptus but not a eucalyptus a um what's the thing I'm thinking of the non
16:16
because all your like loads of trees in Australia are that particular type of tree aren't they is it no it's not you is it eucalyptus I'm thinking of but it
16:23
was yeah maybe it's eucalyptus I'm thinking of oh yeah it's it's a eucalyptus yeah okay
16:30
we've already done the cassowary chat so let's confirm that's uh we should probably move off of Honey I mean one of
16:38
the interesting subjects of me anyway uh you can tell that this is the mood that I've been in all day that has resulted
16:43
in not getting um before you follow on this is uh this is quite interesting um apparently local honey helps with hay
16:50
fever the more you know
17:01
will it be a way of essentially like inoculating yourself on the pollen from the local area because that seems like a
17:08
stretch is it honey that's anti-inflammatory
17:14
I think it is yeah I don't see how it could be it's [ __ ] sugar I think you
17:19
can mummify yourself I think the nut sugar parts of it I have a lot of health benefits
17:24
does coffee laundry have tax implications the question is the question is
17:33
can we make money from honey laundry that's true it's not something we could do on this podcast
17:39
um yeah I don't know and answer that question um well isn't that the question that the Bee Movie tried to answer with with
17:45
Seinfeld if honey if honey has tax implications and then they like sued the government for not paying them for
17:53
stealing their honey or something it [ __ ] always comes back to tax on this goddamn show wait wait B I've already
17:59
seen the B Movie where every time they say B it doubles in speed
18:06
I've not seen the film but I've just seen like a five minute version of it where it gets progressively more insane
18:12
but I've not I'm pretty sure Jake is showing up and is giving his
18:19
[ __ ] for ignoring our [ __ ] gifts already yeah
18:25
so so something something you guys don't know is I arranged a prank for the other week which is that when Sizzler was
18:32
going to be coming on to talk about the media dial I invited Jake and didn't tell you guys because I thought it would
18:38
be really funny if Sizzler started talking about Adele and then like 15 minutes in Jake just turned up and it
18:43
was just like hey you just mentioned down he breaks on you he didn't
18:51
I was just like oh well I didn't mention it to anybody so I was just not mention it but um so anyway for the audience
18:58
just so you know uh we have a spreadsheet of an agenda that we like to follow all right so
19:05
we're working our way down the spreadsheet Jake so on on that
19:11
um
19:19
why uh The Fray did you want to um engage in your d-gen minute uh well I
19:24
was gonna do drill I was actually going to do drill tweet of the world well that's not the [ __ ] order that you put in the description
19:31
well well we do we're doing it out of order because it's one of those days the priorities hit the drill tweet man okay
19:37
so the random one we've we've come up with this week it's in the gaming section
19:42
can't wait till my teeth fall out so I can get those new gamer Dentures all the chat rooms are screaming about
19:50
thank you that's the drill tweet of the week I hope that was enlightening for everybody
19:56
um when you say these are random do you
20:02
just like flick to a page and put your finger on something yeah you just click to a page and put my finger on it it's the first one I mean the one last week
20:08
was [ __ ] horrific like you could tell they're random or pseudo random I guess
20:13
I'm probably not gonna pick because I'm flicking the book I guess I probably am not going to pick one from the first or the end so they're yeah but also you're
20:21
likely to hit the same one at some point because of your you know the fashion how they work
20:27
I mean it says it says over 1500 good posts 10 years of great content so
20:34
there's there's a lot of tweets to go through you know I'm beginning
20:39
I'm beginning to think that is like 10 years of mediocre content was that not a banger I'm sorry what are
20:48
you trying to say about that Tweet now this is a solid 6.5 if that was if that was on if that was on Hal that would
20:53
have got that would make pennies so many pennies like lots and lots of
21:01
are you going to slide into your DJ a minute now are you going to save that much like I I'm not sure there's a
21:07
purpose to DJ a minute because we haven't really oh well you like literally just I'm going to give you the
21:13
keys to the Lamborghini [Music] okay we're gonna do a DJ minute fine so
21:20
fine we just like [ __ ] yolo launched Hal the other day there you go that's that's that was accomplished much more
21:26
quickly than than one minute uh you can check it out at beta.how.social yeah that's right
21:33
um it still beta software it's unaudited so you know be [ __ ] careful it's it's
21:38
a micro payment system so one of the one of the more funny things has been people realizing that
21:46
they're not going to get rich off of a micro payment system with a cw20 oh [ __ ]
21:51
if they don't and in addition if they don't post content that people stake to
21:57
or delegate to and you're like yeah it's because we try to build a
22:03
functioning application so yeah sorry you are just Farm I guess
22:10
like it's wild people realize that you built an actual thing rather than just like uh I mean everything's a Ponzi
22:17
right but but it's like less of a Ponzi than an actual podzy and people are just like what what but I wanted a Ponzi it's
22:24
[ __ ] [ __ ] man it's a [ __ ] this is my existence there are varying varying levels of Ponzi and your Ponzi
22:31
is like
22:36
which which led to my productivity falling off a cliff today when instead of actually dealing with UI bugs I
22:42
instead made uh this Photoshop of the mood on Twitter after launching Hal yeah
22:51
that was first 45 minutes of my life I'm not getting back um that's pretty fast that's really good
22:57
and it's not getting good at uh Photoshop bro well Gary Larson did all the hard work
23:04
just Photoshopped it um so a friend of the show uh when when
23:09
they found out we were going to YOLO launch Hal um sent me sent me this which I really like uh
23:15
I just there's something about that Meme oh that's Sensational uh for those of
23:21
you listening to my podcast player there was a picture of it crocodile not an alligator Croc they
23:27
look I think I didn't see it I think it was crocodile Australia you're Australian now was that
23:32
well in Australia that would be an alligator well actually I don't think we have alligators here that would be a
23:37
saltwater crocodile okay so there was a picture of us potentially a saltwater crocodile attention and around around
23:45
the meme of this crocodile exiting the water it said he is about to commit a federal crime parentheses open he cannot
23:53
be stopped parentheses close uh it's a funny meme and I'm sure you're glad that I have just verbally
24:00
verbally described it to you better visual sweating
24:05
um I I I also just want to clarify that there's in Australia there's salt water
24:11
crocodiles and freshwater crocodiles America has alligators and I'm probably sure other countries do as well but
24:17
Australia doesn't don't you guys usually have like a funny name for those things like you don't call it saltwater crocodile or call it a chompy or
24:23
something like that like a cheeseburger something like that I mean I mean the
24:29
the freshwater crocodiles we call Freshies there you go see I knew it
24:35
there had to be something are they Freshies and salties The Saltwater ones are just [ __ ]
24:42
death munches I guess that's a missed opportunity
24:48
yeah no alligators though I don't like the alligators in the saltwater crocodile look the same to me maybe they
24:54
are the same thing I don't know all right well somebody in the chat like if you want to just like go ahead and
24:59
find out what go do some googly what's going on with this one crocodile thing uh you know that that would be cool
25:07
um so we we're very good at ignoring our guests for a whole hour but I feel like we should went down out because it's
25:13
like you know cool than that that's cool yeah I think the kids the kids the kids
25:18
like Dallas the kids are screaming out for Dallas dowels have been drill has been driven and wild since
25:24
2008. Dow's been driven them wild since when was the first 2013.
25:31
nearly as long as vintages drill yeah so uh guys version two
25:40
like what it what what should we be hyped about like we're Boomers right we're just Boomers we're looking at the
25:46
app we're going what's a doubt what's a doubt I just hear this I see this guy who looks a bit like Spike from Cowboy
25:52
Bebop he just goes down I I can't follow that guy one you guys that was quite the
25:58
reference I don't think anyone's gonna get that are you talking about what's what's
26:04
hyped now or what's going to be hyped in the future what are the most hype features like let's have a top three for
26:10
the down version two let's go well honey laundering just started
26:17
right right now it's really complicated there's a lot of stuff involved Logistics you're going to
26:23
simplify that right down decentralize that [ __ ] decentralize those hives and once it's decentralized it's legal you
26:29
know [Laughter]
26:42
I said I used the um what's it called i a n a l abbreviation acronym whatever
26:50
the other day in a conversation and there were there were people in that conversation that obviously never seen that before and they were like you want
26:58
me and I was like I'm not a lawyer and they were like wow and I was just like
27:04
well but anyway moving on
27:10
yeah yes so like I mean I guess like things I've seen like you've seen you talking about you're talking about you a
27:15
lot about sort of like payroll and obviously all of the additional like kind of features for Discovery and obviously uh like I've seen from the
27:22
other side from Juno's perspective like you've been experimenting a lot with indexing and that kind of stuff too so
27:27
uh I mean there's a lot of stuff going on right yeah yeah
27:33
I mean I think profiles are really really big and they don't immediately seem very big but I think like now that
27:40
when you type in an address you can search by someone's name which I think like psychologically just really changes
27:45
how it feels to use it it feels like you're just interacting with people who are fluidly
27:51
operating in different organizations and so I'm really excited about that
27:59
um I had forgotten what the [ __ ] the
28:04
address was for the haldau um yeah an idiot I didn't write it down so I was just like ah [ __ ] I had to go
28:11
look in the docs and then I was like it's fine I can just like yeah
28:18
one of the massive improvements I think you guys have made is like with the indexer has made a huge like change to
28:27
the user experience for sure um rather than just like get everything straight off chain but like the UI
28:32
improvements are are just really really nice and the the way like now that
28:38
you've got a inbox for votes as well is fantastic absolutely love that
28:45
um when are you going like is are you going to uh do anything with the profile to be
28:53
able to make your pfp like a one of your nfts or anything like that similar to
28:58
like the Kepler wallet or is it already like that that's how it works yeah oh it's already like that is it you can
29:05
flex your stargazing ft's right now right now doubt out not a name service
29:11
and that's like ICS 721 isn't it okay well they're still they stay on stargaze
29:18
but yeah I think you can move them around hopefully yeah
29:23
those profiles are off chain but they're validated by wallet signatures so you don't have to move any nfts around to
29:29
use them but it is so is that using some of the indexer stuff you guys have been doing
29:35
that one's not because you can just sign like an arbitrary message with a wallet and then and verify it on a server
29:41
um but the inbox the yeah the profile oriented features are coming from the index
29:47
some high level high level Alpha for this year for this year
29:54
some serious stuff public key cryptography guys it's crazy
30:00
it's super cool and people that have wallets have public keys
30:05
so that's that's what's coming this year you have a public keys
30:17
this is here to here I I'm now wondering if we've built the same [ __ ] thing
30:23
uh so are you doing are you doing something around essentially using the uh the code okay a public key with the
30:30
wallet to then um improve the ergonomics of that experience
30:35
which experience uh like everything like signing identifying yourself etc etc et cetera
30:41
because like you know the the current ux for I am just a wallet I have a public
30:47
key um is currently like obfuscated to most
30:52
developers and to most people to the extent that that public key is not it's not although it's a whatever the [ __ ] it
30:58
is a sep 251 261 over the phone yeah it's not actually like despite that
31:04
being a thing that almost every crypto Library will support for signing and obviously
31:10
as ubiquitous and Cosmos it's not actually that useful to the user because you can't really access it in a ergonomic whereas developer or it's a
31:17
bit of a pain in the ass nobody really does it yeah yeah you can you can now and that's that's
31:23
kind of what we're hoping to mostly use um I think when you can like I think
31:28
long-term business have like a data mobile app that is associated with that public key with the signature and then
31:33
you don't have to know that you have this wallet that has this complex blockchain stuff you just have a private
31:39
key and it's in your phones like secure enclave and you get notifications because you've Associated that device
31:45
without public key and it all just kind of works as you would expect like a non-webly platform to use
31:51
um yeah but the key being is that with the public Keys we can do like you can have the same or similar like authentication
32:00
guarantees if you require people to sign things like like I feel like there's a here would be
32:05
my my summary is I feel that right now we put a lot on chain that if instead
32:12
we'll put a lot on chain that we could just sign with the user's private key and keep in a web 2 server
32:19
um and have effect Without Really sacrificing at all the privacy and security guarantees and while having the
32:24
same ergonomics um as just using Kepler yeah
32:30
yeah I mean I completely agree with that and yeah it does sound like we've been doing
32:36
free so so the second the version two of the name service is literally do is is
32:41
beginning to abstract out the public key from a connected wallet so that you can
32:47
essentially just have a the idea that's just a public key because yeah all the rest of it should
32:54
be essentially elsewhere and any proof of authority stuff it has to
33:00
live in a some Middle Ground between web 2 web 3 anyway so it's actually an oracle use case rather than
33:07
something that you should have as a form fill and it's not doesn't really
33:12
it can be on chain but it doesn't matter that it is essentially like you just need some kind of uh interface like a
33:20
protocol like an oracle to say okay I am actually I have checked this is real okay cool yeah and then that smart
33:27
contract is just essentially doing the validation so that it's not like um you know you can't just submit whatever the
33:33
[ __ ] you feel like from the command line essentially which is the other way of like you know getting any time you have
33:38
like a form feel you can just you know if it's just a web app and there's no kind of handshake you know what's the point in what we're doing so
33:45
um yeah anyway that sounds really cool um but on really concrete other upcoming
33:51
stuff uh I saw there's some stuff about ranked ranked Choice voting as well right is that coming is that coming
33:57
imminently dude yeah we've been working really hard on that
34:02
um yeah man I mean it turns out it's actually pretty hard to do ranked Choice voting on a blockchain turns out really
34:09
hard math oh [ __ ] as it's frequent frequent case it's like
34:15
oh yeah you know things are like blink like blink seems not hard and then you
34:21
try to do it on a blockchain and it's like impossible um but we did so I did figure out where
34:28
we did figure out how to do it um so I like wrote a really long Essay
34:33
with a lot of math inside of it about how to do it if you're curious
34:39
um but yeah so we're working on it it'll have a front end eventually yeah yeah it's really important that we
34:44
get the design right because that's how you're gonna you know interpret it and interact with it so I think that's
34:50
waiting on a really good design as well yeah I'd say like in practice like the Downtown Development pipeline is we do
34:57
like three versions it just instead of smart contracts like writing one and then rewriting it and writing it again
35:03
and then rewriting it and then after all of that then we eventually like go make a design for it to build a front
35:09
end for it but like we really should try to spend a lot like you know basically like bugs and smart contracts are just
35:15
like actually the worst like just you just don't want to have them like they're like just such a [ __ ] pain in
35:21
the ass you know and so like it's so worth it to just incredibly over index on testing your contracts and being
35:27
really slow um because you're not over indexing every time you think you're over indexing on testing your smart contract
35:34
you're not like yeah the number of even like it's the
35:39
thing that always surprised me about Carlton Watson like you have the security of rust and additionally the VM
35:45
not like you do certain dumb things and you still get [ __ ] on the red
35:52
you're like ah no I am a [ __ ] [ __ ] yeah
35:59
it's it's salinity bro it's solidity like it like you can't like it's like
36:04
gonna get rocks yeah it's like I can't do anything sorry like this language you know unusable you
36:11
know but it's like Rustin wasn't how could you know yeah it's like it's it's definitely our
36:19
fault at this point and then you're like Ah that's but but maybe I can blame
36:24
maybe I can blame like the halting problem or something but I I don't know
36:29
I'm not sure liability like if you ever end up in like public liability situation if you're like well okay so
36:35
I'm not sure really cool guy but okay Wild Thing Called the halting problem
36:41
they'll just be like yeah okay Fine's 50 000 pounds get the [ __ ] out of it you're like but listen like I can prove that in
36:49
order to show what a computer program does you have to run the computer program exactly it's like just be like
36:56
get the [ __ ] out of my board yeah that's how the movie ends that's
37:01
how we're going to jail that's the um but that's anyway that's why you want to
37:06
test your contracts well put love it speaking of just being actually [ __ ]
37:12
stupid um [Laughter]
37:23
story in this man I mean we're not like are we are we talking about anything remotely coherent like actually we have
37:28
the spreadsheet excuse me we are you know if I defeated too far let me know we can go back but anyway speaking of
37:34
being just [ __ ] stupid um
37:44
you know you might think vesting what is it it's a [ __ ] line you know that
37:51
goes up and the amount of tokens that you have is how high that line is investing you know you start with zero
37:57
you get more over time how [ __ ] hard could it be to write a vesting smart contract
38:03
let me tell you I legitimately from noon yesterday until 6 a.m this morning with
38:11
no breaks tried to write a vesting contract and just failed it's so hard
38:16
I'd like I could not do it I just I ended up just like not completing my task and having I have to I have to
38:22
return and think deeply about how best thing works is there anyway yeah we have no excuses you know we're just like
38:27
stupid like lying Zeke's a bad programmer and yeah
38:35
right because because vesting vesting well at least vesting in our model is
38:42
inherently stateful and as we know as soon as you introduce and you deviate
38:48
from our Pure functional programming then
38:53
as soon as we're not just coding data like you may as well just forget about it and we all may as well just like go
38:59
be Farmers again because yeah every time I modify like a state.rs file I'm just
39:05
like yeah like it goes another 20 hours of my life yeah you do one of those like index maps
39:13
and you're just like you're like all right do I want to do this to myself again well then again you know life is
39:19
meaningless God is dead yeah it's like subtract two days from my
39:25
lifespan and then like keep going just you you see I mean well I think you've you've seen the the house State
39:33
file for the main contract it is one of those where like every time we got to a
39:38
thing where we were like this needs to be a secondary index we were just like do do we have any sanity left and
39:46
usually the problem was we didn't have enough so well let's just make it this [ __ ] slapping index it was just like
39:52
I think we had we had this meme that we used to pull out which was you know the guy slap in the roof of the CAR
40:01
contract could fit so much more state in it and
40:07
um yeah we're kind of like even on the beta we were like moderately surprised it didn't just [ __ ] blow up in some
40:13
way because it was just like yeah the thing is you look at I guess the thing really looks like the performance of amms and stuff like that and you're like
40:19
those guys are again more stressed out they're doing more more damage if you like
40:25
um but then they're usually written by smarter people who have optimized them more heavily so
40:30
um padding data on the back we've had no
40:36
smart contract bugs since we've played there too nice so far it's actually since somehow
40:42
miraculously working not somehow more accurate miraculously
40:48
a lot of smart people have looked at that code there's greater than 500 rest
40:53
unit tests and the job contracts repository like we really just completely insane
40:59
yeah anyway so it's exciting it's working I mean it's yeah it's really cool so like you know like
41:05
um taking it back to like you guys like what's your so for the let's let's do
41:11
the interview thing and pretend that we're not ever talk before uh yeah so how did you so I mean what's what's
41:19
your background both of you like how did you get involved with daudel and what what what was so interesting about it
41:24
that you were like [ __ ] whatever it was I was doing before
41:29
all day baby okay I have the sickest [ __ ] job
41:36
before this which we're gonna take two super cool people we're writing open source network monitoring software let's
41:42
take us back but I worked at that job for five days and then you know it's like okay
41:48
we could give you some Death Grips to work on down now
41:59
I can work in my closet
42:05
right it's like yeah I could call it by a bigger closet
42:15
this is the bigger closet
42:22
so now I own a futon but back then I was just sleeping directly on the carpet instead of a sleeping I've done that
42:28
yeah that is
42:33
like that is a mattress on the floor and I see that like are you pretty happy
42:41
that you can work in a room very close to your inspiration stick you have like
42:47
do you have can you buy can you buy bags of inspiration like just in the hallway outside your door there or pretty close
42:54
pretty close I would say that's order of magnitude
42:59
correct oh my goodness order of magnitude correct
43:06
I feel like I feel like Zeke skipped over a lot of the philosophical stuff about how he ended up the down but
43:12
um um we both um to doctors we both we both went to Berkeley that's where we met
43:19
um and we both had like various internships in the Summers um working at different sizes of tech
43:25
companies and realized that it wasn't very fun even the ones that we did like it wasn't very
43:31
fun to work there because they're big and there's churn and friction and we like to build
43:36
and we were not really able to build um and then Zeke you went to a talk with
43:43
um Jake and Nick right and that's kind of how the data like appeared yeah I actually I have a very
43:49
actually intense philosophical understanding yeah well so here's my example
43:55
now before that I worked for cloudflare at eight months and once like my like
44:01
literally like stupid self as we've said like I'm just like actually the intern
44:07
one of the smartest people and I I like modify one line of code slightly wrong and I took down Wikipedia for like four
44:14
hours I'm like holy [ __ ] [ __ ] like this private company no day against people I
44:21
love the people I worked as a cloudflare but I think just structurally like this like private company
44:28
is like hiring an intern and that intern naturally is stupid and just destroys
44:35
the internet and it's like okay we clearly need some better guard rails here like we need something to like like
44:41
I don't know maybe hypothetically speaking like open a source software like doing things transparently like
44:48
might improve how we run Internet infrastructure so that's part of my philosophical
44:54
underprinting and then also what language were they they using oh we were using go and rust and um
45:01
I think we were sorry I think that I don't actually I think that I I really think that the problems are structural
45:07
and that you it's just like you gotta probably you got a private company that needs to make money and
45:13
as it does like or or like at least as it's structured to do and then when you're working on a team that's not your
45:18
like prerogative It's not to fix that um and so like I think Within These bounds like we had pretty reasonable pest coverage for what we could do but
45:25
it was like nothing near like what I think probably we would have had if we had been writing open source software
45:32
and people knew what our test coverage was and the conversation go you're like
45:37
what's wrong with you people why would you trust me with this well that is fine it was you know like it happens yeah
45:46
yeah I mean it's it's a so that's kind of my like I really like dogs because I feel like there's like some hope here
45:52
that we can build a like I don't know one really successful outcome of me for data would
45:58
be like we build a really [ __ ] good way to run an open source project
46:03
yeah yeah but philosophical take is what I was hoping for very simple very
46:09
similar experience very similar and different experience I worked at GitHub um using Ruby on Rails which is oh god
46:18
um not fun to work on as a front-end engineer um Ruby Rubio and rails for GitHub
46:24
really for their yeah for the front end for the for the Education team I actually don't know what the other teams
46:30
use but that's what they originally built it with like way back in the day like Tom uh Tom from GitHub was a big
46:35
Ruby Maxi back in like okay I'm really I'm toxic
46:41
but like but he was like a big Ruby Maxi and like the early mid 2000s that was
46:47
like yeah I think they were one of the first other than 37 signals one of the first to go really big on the like yeah
46:54
we can run this massive actually quite High throughput system on
46:59
Ruby until we can't yeah yeah yeah it looks great and it's worked great so far like there's no real
47:05
reason that they need to change other than like developer experience but I think GitHub is like playing a very big
47:12
role in the rails open source project that contribute a lot to that um
47:17
I just noticed that Zeke and The Inspirations
47:26
on camera if I hit a bong inside of a closet just
47:34
like clothes in it like clothes are hanging in the spot what do you what will happen you know what will happen
47:39
yeah exactly the same as they would have done anyway just maybe a day earlier than
47:46
when you were going to wear them right I mean no one's really smelling my clothes other than myself anyway
47:52
you're right you're right actually not yet not yet all right
48:03
what am I yeah there's one under the desk here so you know it's just like your classic
48:10
you're in a loft you're in a closet you're in a small enclosed space you're just like I mean actually I'm ready
48:16
I'm done yeah so there you go I feel like I feel like Zeke's uh corporate pfp
48:23
needs some very specific features [Laughter]
48:28
Ben Davis has just said in the chat does the inspiration stick get you demonetized this whole [ __ ] I have no
48:36
idea exercise and getting demonetized we should just like play some some more copyright material a little bit make
48:43
sure that we [ __ ] nailed down that [ __ ] coffin get it [ __ ] finished get it closed you know
48:49
like the phrase I I don't think since we've begun this podcast that we've done anything that could get us monetized
48:57
yeah not the other way around like no no no no no I'm I am I'm certain I'm
49:04
certain that it's demonetization that's holding us back there's no wait
49:10
we could even be we could even be early to an actual meme that kind of goes semi-viral of the community and be like
49:16
oh yeah and we still we still can't [ __ ] get our [ __ ] together like we
49:22
literally we we haven't met any of the check boxes that would
49:27
make us a get proliferated in the algorithm or B might
49:35
be monetized so we're like we're still got zero out of
49:40
like 10 for the check boxes what you gonna do
49:47
which what are you going to do it we tried our best what's the joke we we haven't tried
49:54
everything we're all out of ideas [Laughter] what'd you get to do so um what's she
50:01
gonna do seeking Noah I I did notice that you had the um Fiat on-rab now in
50:08
the outer through Cato yeah is that uh you know if you get anything like how
50:15
did that end up being even it's like what what's the what's the point behind that like are we just trying to uh
50:22
make it easier for people to I think the credit cards yeah I think yeah I think the point of it
50:29
right now is to just like ship something to get the idea out there but the long-term vision is that you can like
50:35
click a button and start like a business you could just run a cafe and so you can't really do that unless you can
50:40
transact USD um and So eventually that would be like more seamless I think like there's
50:45
really no reason right now I think just to use the deposit withdraw Fiat to your wallet like maybe deposit to a dow has
50:52
more use cases right now but it's kind of there just because it's helpful for people who might not have any crypto or
51:00
yeah So currently like the uses of dows at
51:06
the moment are like not the not the potential uses but the actual use by Dows at the moment are
51:14
probably like social groups d-gens
51:19
and uh some Network related um things right where do you guys
51:26
want it to go or where do you see it going in the future like what what would be the ultimate
51:32
um use case for the idea for you guys the ultimate use case would be a nation
51:38
state run as a job with many sub-dos that owns land and that runs identity
51:46
bureaus and that people identity and Digital Society is just way more [ __ ]
51:52
organized because right now it's pretty much Anarchy which is good it's such a fine line between stupid and clever yeah
52:01
no that's super battle and super bad
52:06
so that is that's quite ambitious that's like two you know decades you
52:13
know exactly are you about to say about two years away
52:26
like [ __ ] let's resuscitate the old French guys that wanted this in the 1910s got bookshelves full of these guys
52:33
I'm sure they're still warm
52:40
country like that like legalized Bitcoin they must do yeah there's Islands I'm sure
52:46
like there's so many territories that I'm sure we could do this in like 10 years
52:52
but it seems like it seems a little bit like duct tape and Band-Aids to have like a country run on um Juno
52:59
well yeah yeah right now it does three years
53:10
but it's not like okay you say joking aside like um do you not so like I I kind of I kind of
53:17
I I'm I'm big into Dows is that for whatever reason I just sort of checked myself as
53:23
I said I was like am I think it's yeah I'm a dow believer let's say but for for
53:30
certain use cases like I think that the the the question I have and like I guess I'm interested in you're taking this is
53:36
it feels to me like the the really anything that is online that is fully like your jurisdictionless right uh is
53:44
multilateral like um makes sense for doubts like there
53:49
there's a huge hole in the internet which is that we work in these in this
53:54
abstract space called the internet which a lot of us that work in this space sort of see the internet as a real place
54:01
right and Dows mean you can make a real thing or like an entity or a rapper or a
54:07
conceptually concrete thing to represent an abstract thing inside the space and I'm like
54:13
right the when the day of the day I clocked that that was a doubt I was like okay Dallas make sense
54:19
but I don't think they I don't really buy that they make sense in the real world because in the real world I can
54:25
just I can pick up the phone I can go talk to the people I can you know whatever but like in the
54:30
in the virtual world you it's just inherently I mean other than obviously
54:36
people that you can get on a group call with and then masquerade it as a podcast like
54:41
there is just like a lower level of trust and so having that additional the cryptography and all the other stuff
54:46
behind it like it it's just like it all makes sense all the way to the ground but like do you guys see like oh no this
54:52
is a thing that should be applied to things in the real world like in Meet space and all that kind of thing as well or
54:59
yeah I do um I think that the I would ask
55:08
is the reason that you say like imagine that Downs weren't complicated to use
55:15
okay do you still think it's the case that they're not useful in meat space
55:20
well yeah well generally yes because most social groups
55:29
are more informal and so don't need rules-based organizing in the same way
55:36
and I guess what I the difficulty is drawing
55:41
the line between a Dao being the codification of the set of rules to govern a community and being the
55:49
privatization of a social contract that is just a
55:55
collective hallucination because all all informal issues are just a hallucination right so the and and this is also like
56:03
the wider this is the wider criticism people throw at crypto right which is that it's the privatization of money and
56:09
this is in a context where governments and nation states have given up on programs of actually doing
56:15
something and having an agenda and having like a here's a grand project we can do and then instead go you know
56:20
space space exploration other than China you know privatized SpaceX you know
56:26
they're doing currently as much as most nation states if not more money crypto
56:32
privatized militaries mpri privatized Halliburton you know
56:38
there's a load of different things that we've kind of let out of the public sphere
56:43
whether that's people think of the public Spear and the nation Stakes are really easy to identify those things
56:48
like space space program you know but but
56:54
there's a public sphere that's really informal and it's like people as well it's like the rest of society it isn't
56:59
just the state so there's like there is I think like this complicated philosophical thing that as soon as you codify a thing and
57:05
especially with this additional like it's not money but it is value isn't it like the the blockchain element you are
57:12
sort of privatizing and monetizing and the same sort of you know in the same breath
57:20
which is which is philosophically difficult yeah I think so my I actually have a
57:27
response to you earlier thing I I think I like I agree with what you say like I don't think that anyone should nourish
57:35
it cows like pray that computerize the social like social
57:42
relationships the thing I'd say though is that I I
57:50
also really agree with your earlier point about I think dolls do really well in an internet environment where you
57:57
know working this abstract space and yet we have these arbitrary restrictions applied based on something
58:02
unrelated which is where we're physically located and what I what I would kind of suggest
58:07
is that there's not going to be much very much of that meat space once the internet is what it is in a couple years
58:13
you know I think that what I would say is sure yeah I agree I think pretty much I think most things will in a couple
58:21
years will like meet that criteria of like Internet space
58:26
yeah yeah I I just imagine like you know what
58:31
was it the time frame two decades like in two decades time two to three years
58:39
so so I just imagine that in in like two to three years there's you know some
58:45
four-star general sitting on his [ __ ] house voting on whether or not to like
58:51
invade China on his iPhone they've got the Minuteman missiles right
58:56
and they've got you know 15 minutes to get it [ __ ] get them [ __ ] away otherwise the us is going to be
59:02
destroyed with no retaliation and he's got his Ledger and he's like this is the wrong Ledger
59:08
he gets back he's clicking through all the things he's like launch the nuclear
59:13
Miss ah just fine it's time one try left oh no
59:19
God [ __ ] he's like let's face it man count on The Ledger it's the secret account of The Ledger I need to unplug
59:25
it and plug it back in rules around him sweating you know
59:31
let's the phrase you have to you
59:36
really I just I can't believe that you think they would have a ledger they're going to have their [ __ ] password
59:41
written on the back of their hands have you read like command crossword one a
59:48
exclamation mark with a custodial key situation no it's way worse than that
59:54
for I think it was over 15 years the US Missile Command uh left the Minuteman
1:00:01
override password to be the default which I think was zero zero zero zero
1:00:06
zero like it's a there's a there's a great book called command and control by Eric Schlosser which is all about
1:00:12
essentially the near misses Humanity had during the Cold War and basically they had all of this theater and it turned
1:00:19
out that the override was just like zero zero zero zero zero and um like written
1:00:24
on and posted on the monitor yeah I think the guy I think the guy wrote the book because this was like I think even
1:00:31
the two early in the late 2000s maybe somebody got arrested in the states for having a pizza delivered to a nuclear
1:00:38
missile silo um and they'd stuck a note on the door they left the silo open and then stuck a
1:00:46
note to the blast doors saying I'll like leave the pizza downstairs in the
1:00:51
[ __ ] Atrium because the guys were just like smoking weed and hanging out because obviously the cold War's over
1:00:58
and they're just like we don't need to do [ __ ] so and it provoked obviously the
1:01:03
the delivery driver who was like some [ __ ] spotty teenager was just like oh oh no this is bad and so they like
1:01:10
called the police or whatever he knocked [ __ ] kids these days
1:01:16
yeah yeah he knocked um but yeah I think that was why this journalist basically read the story and
1:01:21
was like this is wild I wonder what morale's like in the Strategic missile court and then was like oh not good and
1:01:27
it was like I wonder how many weird like bad things have nearly happened in history and it's like oh yeah loads of
1:01:33
yeah nuclear submarines where they're running Windows XP or whatever and all sorts of crazy [ __ ] good book good
1:01:40
book that actually involves cryptography
1:01:47
[ __ ] that way too advanced way too much I think to your earlier point just about
1:01:53
how like the system is run on social contracts is kind of why I think Dallas could run any type of organization like
1:01:59
including including a nation state you know in 100 years maybe not two years but like the laws are already encoded in
1:02:07
like written text and then forced by people and that's all just happening because we all agree and that
1:02:14
can be done through a verifiable Secure Storage mechanism run on a blockchain
1:02:19
run on whatever it's called in 20 years do you even think there'll be nation
1:02:25
states in in a hundred years
1:02:31
and everyone else oh God I don't know
1:02:36
I mean yeah yeah maybe the next step in globalization right I mean that'll happen when we have
1:02:44
a uh you know Interstellar adversary then we'll just they will have to unite
1:02:51
or kill ourselves to kill each other like yeah well look I'm kind of a combination of localization and
1:02:57
federalization seem like the tendency like they kind of seem like that's
1:03:03
what's in the air do you know what I mean like that wherever you kind of look people are like organizing a very local
1:03:11
level or they're organizing at a the whole of Europe like the like if you
1:03:16
look at like say like the the green party it's literally like you're [ __ ] pretty much your postcode like the
1:03:23
smallest possible area you could possibly have in the UK politics which is like a ward very small but obviously
1:03:29
every part of political party does that but like the you know like all these kind of movements the Grassroots bit is
1:03:36
literally like it could be very very small couple of streets maybe it's always been like this for political
1:03:41
movements I don't know or it's like yeah the size of a [ __ ] continent and everybody you're focusing on policy
1:03:48
so it does feel to me that it's like some larger Federal like back to the like what we were
1:03:54
talking about earlier with like multilateralism right the the reason Dows make sense is because a lot of the
1:03:59
pro a lot of the problems we have in the world right now are multilateral like one country can't solve them on their own one group of people can't solve them
1:04:05
on their own yeah and we don't act or interact with one another as just one person in one country anymore either
1:04:11
because of the communication methods and that's all just like under the hood that's all just like this kind of weird
1:04:17
multilateral world we live in and dowels are also multilateral I mean look at how we're spread out a couple of us are in
1:04:24
the same country but we're spread out we're across the Atlantic and we there
1:04:30
isn't actually uh like it was it was very hard for us to even try and get a handle on how the [ __ ] we could work
1:04:36
together in a way that wasn't illegal in some way and even then you're like not sure and
1:04:43
you're just like [ __ ] hell man like obviously like governments recognizing doubts [ __ ] no it's [ __ ] knows when yeah
1:04:50
whatever but you are just like literally we're just trying to [ __ ] launch a thing
1:04:55
like we have to organize somehow yeah he's like we can't trust each other like who the [ __ ] knows we can't actually
1:05:01
trust each other yeah and you're just like okay well this is Dao like I mean like we make the joke of
1:05:07
the show all the time like it's now yeah there's a whole bunch of situations is this a doubt yeah it's doubt I think
1:05:13
that was actually like the second post on Hal from schultzy like is this a day
1:05:19
yep I think that that standardization is like really key to death that like the
1:05:26
the friction reduced by like the standardization of data is that like any any local Dao can interact with all the
1:05:33
other dads that exist in the exact same way there's no like communication issues there's no
1:05:39
platforms that they have to like migrate to or it's just it's all like the coordination cost is really minimal
1:05:46
um and I think that's what's going to be like the most significant factor in helping these organizations not suck
1:05:52
basically not not run not lose out because they like have to scale or like
1:05:58
get big and get bloated and institutional you know growth
1:06:06
I think that's that's actually my earlier point about GitHub that was kind of where I was heading is that like this is like one of my favorite tech
1:06:13
companies like I feel like they're really doing good for the world um and I like didn't like working there
1:06:19
not because they are bad or because the people I work with were bad they were amazing because the institution just has
1:06:24
this friction that has emerged because now there are 2 000 people that have to make a [ __ ] ton of money
1:06:31
and then it and then it's hard and then just over time it's just yeah yeah but are you just talking about the
1:06:38
natural cycle of things right like that's a thing is born it grows a bit it
1:06:44
grows too big it dies you know or sometimes it lingers on forever like [ __ ] corporations where they just
1:06:49
keep buying up new ones but right but you know that's like the nature of Institutions isn't it that they
1:06:55
accumulate [ __ ] until they're no longer fit for service and maybe that's what back to
1:07:01
the you know joke [ __ ] [ __ ] posting are we going to have nation states but but equally
1:07:10
that just that sounds to me like a structural issue that like is unsustainable like is that a cycle that
1:07:15
we like want to continue does that have to happen I think it's inevitable like
1:07:21
in the words of Frozen stock nothing's forever dude yeah yeah
1:07:28
I think it's harder for the public institutions all are gonna run into that like we went to Berkeley and it was like
1:07:33
it's just becoming increasingly a [ __ ] show and it's like not really okay if all the things we funnel money into will
1:07:39
eventually just collapse if they're serving good for a lot of people but it's okay because like you
1:07:44
know people you know there's there's good folks and there's bad folks and there's people in between and people muddle along and they
1:07:50
make new things and some things are better and some things are worse and that's like all of human history you know like you just gotta yeah try and
1:07:58
not be a prick um unless people really [ __ ] are being an [ __ ] and they deserve it like
1:08:03
not being a prick is great except for like Nazis like the Nazis I think you're allowed to be approach to the Nazis like
1:08:09
you probably do want to go and shoot some Nazis but like most other people
1:08:15
you know yeah yeah I think to your point too like I agree that these things we're
1:08:22
describing with like organizations organizations that like grow and then like fail to like become less efficient
1:08:28
like that's not unique like that'll certainly happen with those like it's happening with that yeah I think my um
1:08:36
my sort of reason I think so so then that's like we're kind of if if this is
1:08:42
worth trying we have to find like structural reasons that Dows might be different than existing systems and I
1:08:49
think in my mind the the two the two like structural advantages that does have over other systems is the first one
1:08:56
which I think you articulated really well earlier about um the internet and how they're they're
1:09:02
they're not geographically bound they map well to how we currently work in a ways that existing institutions don't
1:09:09
and the second one being that does can innovate very quickly you know compared
1:09:15
to something like an LLC or a C Corp those do not change fast and things that
1:09:22
are enforced by a legal system like have this very like slow process fire which
1:09:27
are instituted but you know like without like wind you know uses our contracts and
1:09:35
writes their own gauges proposal module you can just like try that you know I think that is
1:09:40
just because we're early isn't it like at some point like it will get regulated
1:09:45
and then there will be there will be friction in making a dow and then it comes back to like
1:09:51
at that point the Dow is useful because there is no other logical way of organizing a bunch of nerds on the
1:09:57
internet right that's the right and then sort of the second Point matters yeah right but but but to your point like I
1:10:04
mean now is the time to try it yeah precisely because try it when you're not going to get [ __ ] busted for trying
1:10:10
it right yeah try it while that's first structure well that's fun to try again right speed actually exists yeah yeah
1:10:16
but then it's going to be interesting like you kind of like down the line and like let's say you know something like Juno where it's now being devolved to
1:10:23
sub-dials and things you're like will that [ __ ] model scale like it's it's probably likely that
1:10:29
okay prediction it doesn't scale because and it's nothing to do with the tech it's to do with either the people or the
1:10:35
politics or the tensions or somebody doesn't like somebody and that undermines one of them and then it all
1:10:41
because it's always that [ __ ] isn't it like yeah but but like I the humanity
1:10:46
the humanity comes in is the human bit is this it's all the meaty users it's the
1:10:53
problem between the keyboard and the chair that's the uh that's gonna [ __ ] you well as much as the bugs and the smart contracts that sometimes
1:11:00
but you never know when that's coming for you it's like um yeah it's like the joke in Black AdAway writes that he
1:11:06
writes his name on a bullet because he's like oh they say there's a bullet out there with your name on it it's it's been set in the first World War and it's
1:11:13
like well I figured if I own the bullet I'm not going to shoot myself and his friends like oh that's a shame
1:11:18
um but okay where I was going with that but uh that's a good joke there it's a good joke it's a good joke
1:11:25
um something something you never know what's gonna yeah you never know where the bugs the bug with your name on it is
1:11:32
yeah that was where I was going with that it's waiting out there he exists you just don't know about it yet
1:11:40
um but yeah so like what so I mean other than the public keys and stuff like other than watching presumably some
1:11:47
hilarious absolute [ __ ] show that will come down because like Dao Dao the drama of Cosmos has not hit Dow Dow
1:11:55
at some at some point something chaos is gonna happen but like
1:12:01
at the moment it definitely feels like it's still a project where you guys are putting in a load of time and effort and
1:12:06
stuff and people are aware of it and the use cases are owned like people are starting to use it in the large that's
1:12:13
starting to happen with Juno and the towers that's starting to happen with wind you already mentioned
1:12:18
um you know is running all their governance on data yet several of the
1:12:23
other chains in Cosmos are running the governance on doubt out we obviously you know want to look at doing a cosmos SDK
1:12:31
chain at CSI CW SDK chain uh with Dow Dow as as the gov module and stuff and
1:12:37
that's like [ __ ] way off in the future and then there's like well you know plug Hal is obviously like first
1:12:44
classes of a Dao it's it's pretty tightly I mean it's a it's a social platform so tightly integrated with
1:12:51
dowdow that it physically does not work there's loads of things about it they're just flat broken unless you have a dow
1:12:58
to run the [ __ ] thing there's a few well there's a few other
1:13:03
things as well like the way it's built with like the moderation system and stuff has like an escape hatch out
1:13:09
to make a dow override essentially a multi-sig and I think in yeah if if that
1:13:14
platform goes anywhere off it gets taken forward in time like that's again obvious stuff where with the newer
1:13:20
features in downtown you would go okay well these sub-dials are they committees what are they and then and if there's
1:13:26
one place where everything is going to [ __ ] burn down it would be moderation that is the
1:13:31
that's the one where everything goes to [ __ ] isn't it yeah yeah please do that as much as possible I doubt uh like
1:13:38
really the harder most legally challenging moderation is like bring it on man I'm you know 23 you just got out
1:13:46
of college [Laughter] oh my God yeah just
1:13:53
yeah that's one of the things in in crypto isn't it it's just like the any week where you don't have to have any
1:14:00
you don't have to say the word legal there's a good week
1:14:05
um but do you think there's I mean there's also so just literally thinking about something that
1:14:11
um I remember from with with Jake some time ago it's like a going to this talk
1:14:16
about how um essentially like in various different
1:14:22
scenarios humans automatically organize into like these kind of what's the word I'm looking for
1:14:29
like kind of concentric circles of of size for different types of organization uh I don't think they were
1:14:36
I guess that you know what because everything in nature is Fibonacci I bet it is I remember it's like one
1:14:43
three but obviously fibonacci's one one isn't it but you know it's like roughly one then roughly three then I think
1:14:50
either five or ten than something than something then 100 then 150 I think I
1:14:56
think 150 is the maximum Social grouping yeah like typically that humans can
1:15:02
sustain because I think I think after about 200 you can't even remember people's faces our brains aren't programmed to track
1:15:09
all those people's lives I think it's like more than 150 yeah you can't you
1:15:16
can't um imagine that people have an inner world
1:15:25
yeah I feel that every day
1:15:35
you've got one and the two inner circles are one and three and hey like every modern military is organized around fire
1:15:41
teams of three or four people right they they all converged on that hmm
1:15:47
the phrase did you say that was uh a fibonacci's thing well that is
1:15:54
my ignorance of mathematics here in my Humanities degree but isn't it one one the Dunbar number five
1:16:00
yeah yeah yeah but the amount of people you can remember is the Dunbar number
1:16:05
how do you how do you know what that's called because it comes up all the time
1:16:11
oh yeah that's totally does it come up all the time it comes up all the time it's okay yeah well I mean if you listen
1:16:18
to The Joe Rogan podcast it does anyway [Laughter]
1:16:27
one of my number is how many people live within a thousand miles of null that's why it comes up all the time it's
1:16:34
either one one three or five 150 people within a thousand miles yeah
1:16:40
something like that um was like you know the Isle of man's like a really really small island uh I I
1:16:46
know people this came up with tax evasion the other week I think I know some people that live there and it's literally like
1:16:52
it's a country right and the population is like I don't know the four streets around me kind of thing
1:17:00
a large High School yeah yeah exactly well there's some of those Pacific Islands same thing they're absolutely
1:17:06
tiny like it's something like Rarotonga it's like 12 000 people they have a jail that's
1:17:12
like two rooms looks like Zeke's closet yeah
1:17:18
let's go no bonds
1:17:25
oh yeah we haven't been drinking beer for Dao this episode it's not it's not
1:17:30
fun when you're not winding up Jake somebody just said in the chat why are you guys
1:17:38
I feel like Jake just dropped in and then [ __ ] off real quick
1:17:47
they're not calling him an [ __ ] so he's like he's like a public relations disaster averted
1:17:54
I can go back getting reasonably close to uh you know
1:18:00
hour and a half did we want to um touch on Alliance Frey before we uh you know
1:18:05
get to the end or we want to ignore that part of the scripture it's in the spreadsheet okay cool yeah uh
1:18:11
I'm just going to read directly from the spreadsheet Alliance well [ __ ] is it
1:18:17
what the [ __ ] is it yeah so what the [ __ ] so well so as far
1:18:23
as I know and uh I did recently attend a meeting um
1:18:29
it is basically it's a module for for the SDK and it allows uh token holders of other
1:18:39
networks to then come and stake tokens for example like Tara come in stake some
1:18:45
Terror tokens two validators on Juno for example
1:18:50
but yeah obviously there's more to it than that the the uh
1:18:56
you know there's the stakers of Juno can um determine through governance how much of
1:19:04
the uh inflation or the rewards that they want to distribute to each one of the
1:19:11
other participants so it's it's mesh security but not with the smart contract
1:19:17
but written as a module is that well that's what it sounds like no see I
1:19:22
don't know it's not because is it a dow is this a Dao it's not about that
1:19:28
there's so as far as I can tell there is no
1:19:34
um effect on security because it doesn't contribute towards you VP per
1:19:40
block if people delegate to you over Alliance so so where do the rewards come
1:19:46
from yeah what's the point though so so the the rewards is the distribution of the
1:19:52
staking rewards so I mean that's what is the point it is
1:19:57
do they get part of the mint way what is the point so it's like us yeah
1:20:05
what are the incentives kind of thing they'll incentivize you to stake on the network to secure it more what well I
1:20:12
mean it doesn't it doesn't secure it is the thing if it doesn't secure it's more like uh it doesn't no yeah so well as
1:20:19
far as I can tell so what it does is I I think it's like
1:20:25
supposed to be you know like a a buddy buddy um
1:20:30
steak on ours we'll stake on yours it's a circle stay it's definitely a circle stake that's a definition of stroke so
1:20:36
if it doesn't add to VP so but they still get part of the mint how would they get part of the mint if
1:20:42
they're not helping secure the network that doesn't make any sense to me so I guess what happens is that through
1:20:49
governance and the module the native module you um vote on how much you want to
1:20:55
distribute of the um inflation to for example the terrorist
1:21:03
Acres on on Juno so you know it might be 10 right
1:21:08
so 10 gets cut off and it goes to and gets distributed among the stakers from
1:21:14
Tara who are staking that IBC Terror token to Juno validators for example so
1:21:20
it's a network it's a network incentive to be able to build visibility to a new
1:21:25
network from an existing Network right like because there would be another there's no other value other than if there's no
1:21:32
security implication then it it's is it not just masturbation
1:21:41
like it serves no purpose is it is it a market it's a marketing span is this masturbation
1:21:47
it it definitely seems as though it is a
1:21:52
marketing thing yeah and it seems like it would benefit
1:21:58
uh networks of lower economic value yeah it seems like it seems like it's a
1:22:04
way to be able to build visibility like it's an incentive of some sort right like you're using it as a way to
1:22:10
it's well yeah so it's like for example is it bi-directional or does it pull
1:22:15
towards the center of gravity so if for example
1:22:20
um you know uh say I don't know Carbon implemented and Tara implemented it then
1:22:27
people on carbon could State Carbon on terror and people in Terror could stay tear on carbon and then you know they
1:22:34
might distribute part of the rewards to each of the network so it's it's a weird way like you know on the reciprocal
1:22:41
Network you can earn their rewards token so I guess you're carrying a price risk
1:22:47
on one wall receiving rewards on another with a different risk profile is the way I
1:22:53
could see it but so it is it is literally mesh without it is mesh without the security part so
1:23:00
it is just circle staking yeah but I I don't see like you know my own opinion is I don't see why you'd want to carry
1:23:07
the risk of the token value or like I
1:23:12
don't see why what are you talking about character has never been
1:23:19
I don't see why you was going to yeah you're [ __ ] always talking over me I don't see why the the
1:23:27
um there's the holders of Juno for example would want to just give
1:23:33
10 of the staking rewards which they're taking the price risk on holding their Juno and staking right and give them to
1:23:40
another Network's stakers like you know for example like what if you I
1:23:46
don't know if um what about when the usdc uh ICS Network comes right and then people are
1:23:53
like yeah we want to integrate with that and then you've got people who are holding a stable with no interest in the
1:23:58
network or Price risk whatsoever earning rewards from you know Juno or Terror
1:24:04
inflation like it doesn't that you're not invested in the network that why should you like receive the
1:24:11
rewards that's it's a strange concept which maybe I don't fully understand what's going on
1:24:17
there but if anyone else could like put some positive spin I'd be interested to
1:24:23
hear it well equally as I was saying like when has Terror ever been you know volatile and priced that it seems like
1:24:30
there's no risk to me yeah man it's practically a stable right
1:24:35
yeah exactly basically basically a stable coin pretty much
1:24:44
yeah okay so I mean so the next one on the list is Comet bft
1:24:51
oh right the artist formerly known as tendermint I made that joke last week but I felt like I wanted to resuscitate
1:24:57
that yeah just get it one more last hurray with it
1:25:03
look we've already already passed away at Circle staking here
1:25:09
um so yeah then Dex prop oh yeah so well yeah right yeah this is
1:25:18
like the hope is is this the hopers and the well because this one I think is more
1:25:24
about this is another opinion corner on providing liquidity incentives from the
1:25:31
community pool right because there's a bunch of funds that are left over from Pro uh prop 14 I want
1:25:39
to say which was originally Juno swap incentives and I think there was a move
1:25:44
to put them towards wind and then hopers were like No it should be split between our very low liquidity decks and this
1:25:49
other decks which I mean I don't think it should go back to I think those incentives should go back
1:25:56
to the community pool and these [ __ ] dexes should stand on their own two feet with their [ __ ] coin
1:26:02
and that's why it was on the spreadsheet folks click clip clip that for the YouTube shorts
1:26:09
yeah I mean look going going straight after like
1:26:15
you know um staking rewards is I I think you need to like develop your
1:26:22
your platform off your own two feet first before you start like trying to bootstrap it with tokens from
1:26:28
other interests like I don't
1:26:34
maybe maybe the Juno holders might want to like if it becomes a
1:26:40
popular decks with some amount of liquidity like maybe there is some call to have like some
1:26:47
additional liquidity incentives to boost it but I mean is there an argument that the main pool on it let's say is is is
1:26:54
like Juno wind let's say and that in order to compete with
1:27:02
established gexes in the space and make a bet on a cosmoasm decks being
1:27:07
able to out iterate them there is a attack there is like a a a speculative
1:27:14
Financial move to say oh well yeah we'll fund this because we want to see it used
1:27:20
and we want it to get mind share and use that for marketing and then use that to then make its in roads and then
1:27:28
you know whatever because like I mean I guess you know what it boils down to
1:27:34
whether you think that it matters that the decks is on the same chain that you want to Launch
1:27:39
decentralized applications on right because if the answer is no you just use osmosis so the answer is yes then you
1:27:45
want a Dax on Juno right so
1:27:52
I think there should be multiple dexes but I also think they should grow with their Community
1:27:58
um and you know develop themselves without outside
1:28:03
um value pumping them up so I like you know
1:28:09
the biggest beneficiary of outside incentives coming in to a um a DEX is
1:28:16
the the main pairing token right whoever holds uh a lot of the main pairing token is
1:28:21
the main beneficiary to any outside incentives because they use those incentives to increase the
1:28:28
um the liquidity of the pools right and whether you're increasing the let's just
1:28:35
call the the native decks token X right so whether it's Juno x osmo x bloody
1:28:44
um you know stars to X all of those pools are all paired with X and then as
1:28:49
you increase the the liquidity in each of those pools it increases the depth
1:28:54
for that X token right and so the biggest beneficiary is that X token so I
1:29:01
think that people who want that like you know the people who are most interested in making
1:29:07
that deck successful other people who hold that X token and I think they should be footing the bill
1:29:13
for making it popular not the holders of other tokens from pools right but if
1:29:21
that's a brand new decks a brand new token the token might they should be worth [ __ ] all and so they could rub all
1:29:26
of their pennies together and come up with Jack [ __ ] right so the way that um
1:29:34
people in the park well networks in the past try to build their liquidities by giving away their token to people in the
1:29:41
hope that they'll pair it and provide liquidity to get the incentives but I
1:29:47
mean the whole model is just a little bit unsustainable uh
1:29:54
for the most part and you really need the only way they survive is popularity and features right
1:30:01
so people will just accept that base token as the pairing token if you have a
1:30:08
good UI ux features speed like if it's
1:30:13
convenient to go and use that decks then people who want to use that Dex right but if if you're non-competitive in that
1:30:20
sense and you're just trying to increase your value of your dicks with external
1:30:26
incentives then you're not doing a good job so osmosis is a reasonably Pleasant
1:30:31
place to do business in terms of swaps right so that's where people gravitate to it was
1:30:37
the first and it is a pretty smooth experience it's fast um you know it has relatively few issues
1:30:44
and people are going to want to use that and then as more people come and use
1:30:50
that then they generate more value out of fees for the
1:30:56
um you know staking pools and stuff like that whereas other
1:31:01
dexes that are trying to bootstrap need to I think concentrate on the UI
1:31:06
and ux experience first before they start trying to increase their liquidity
1:31:12
depth um or trying to like increase the value otherwise they're really just
1:31:18
you know trying to increase the value of their token
1:31:24
to I don't know whether whether they're trying to like just increase the depth of their token so they can sell some or
1:31:30
whether they're trying to be able to sell some for a development reserves or
1:31:36
something like that to improve their decks like unless that's really clear I think that just been a DEX and asking
1:31:43
for incentives is a little bit um yeah unclear and intention and potentially disingenuous
1:31:50
if that makes sense
1:31:55
[Music]