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pocket. Welcome to Game of Notes, a weekly podcast on the Cosmos from independent Validator

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teams. Hello, welcome to Game of Notes, a weekly podcast on the Cosmos from independent

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Validator teams. And yeah, once you see it, that weird dopling effect between Noel's

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headphone and his head really is a put it's like, you know, does anybody remember the

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film Stargate? You know, when it's kind of like that weird, liquidy 90s special effects

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where they were trying to like do the it's kind of like a weird water effect.

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It's like an ornate doesn't do it justice. I love that effect whenever it came out. I

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was like, wow, that is so inspired. I think Stargate, I haven't watched it in years. Does

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it hold up? I think it does. Not super well. But it's like, it's very much in vain of the

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classic 80s action flicks that they was trying to like invoke them. I think it holds up. But

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I'm also I like the idea of Stargate more than I do like a Star Trek, which I know is

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a really hot take. So that is quite a hot take given that I mean, because Star Trek is like

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wholesome space communism. And Stargate is kind of like, we sort of just like wandered

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through a gate and then triggered a war. And now we're going to kind of just get involved.

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We're actually really useless because everybody else like way more powerful than us. So, you

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know, we'll give it a try. But we're just we've just sparked it into seller war. Sorry,

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everybody. Like, but then I guess that's kind of how things do turn out in real life. Like

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these things get screwed up. There is that whole weird thing where they're just like,

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yeah, we've just got like rifles and those guys got laser guns, but their armor is like

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weirdly completely penetrable by 5.56 NATO ammunition. And that's just like and then

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they even get the the P 90 and they're like, ah, but it's pistol ammunition, but it's high

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velocity designed to penetrate the body armor that terrorists will be wearing, which is

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why it's in police use, which is why we're using it because we're like cool stuff. And

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you're like, yeah, they're armored aliens. I'm not sure any cool German heckler and cock

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gear German firearm is gonna just because it's just cool and experiment. It doesn't mean

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it's gonna defeat alien armor. That's like, but it's like to stop lasers. But their armor

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also is like from the shoulders up, right? Like there's very little actually guarded

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they got like, it's like a, it's like a it's like a belly shirt type of armor though, right?

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For most of them. Oh, yeah, because there's that weird thing where it like folds up into

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like a hole and then they're just like wearing sandals. We just shoot their legs. We rename

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this episode belly shirt armor.

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What's the what's the the I just that I see the legs of just rubbery, you know, the

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seed of diehard when

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Yeah, it's in the defense. And then the German guy doesn't understand. So he was in English.

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It's just like, yeah, that it's not even a continuity era. That was what the photo of

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the screen rise.

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That was awesome. Diehard. It is a good film though. It's good film.

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The depth of Stargate knowledge. I'm going to go back and start watching this again.

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SG one was good for a while. It genuinely was. I remember like as a kind of like schlocky

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TV series. I mean, it was no like about Stargate, but it was it was good. And I mean remake

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about Stargate, hot take remake obviously better than the original. I'm not even sure

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that's hot take actually. It's probably not hot take at all.

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I was gonna say, yeah, I think that's a great upon. I've been wanting to watch the most

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recent Stargate series Stargate universe or something like that. Apparently that's whenever

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it went over from the sci fi channel to like the S Y F I channel, the sci fi where you

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know, sci fi shows go to die basically. And apparently it's great or something. I don't

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know.

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SG one had a didn't have MacGyver in it.

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Yeah, it did.

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I don't know who it was. Is that Richard Dean was running that?

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Yeah.

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SG you know, I watched a few episodes of Stargate Atlantis and it wasn't even that bad. Like

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I mean, it wasn't like again, it's like a definition of what's bad, like kind of watchable

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if you got to know what age would have been like early twenties and it's a Saturday and

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you hung over. Yeah, except for sci fi for a hungover Saturday magic. God, I can't imagine

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having like three hours to piss away watching five out of 10 sci fi now. It's got to be

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eight out of 10 or above critically recommended recommended by two or more people I respect.

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Otherwise I'm like, I just have the time, my man. I can't help you there. But yeah, do

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you want to rewatch the original Stargate?

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The movie, right?

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That you're talking about?

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Yeah, the movie. I kind of like I just have this like warm feeling towards it without

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actually remembering whether it's any good. I just want to have my dreams crushed. That's

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the thing where we are with Stargate.

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So, all right, here's my take for that. If have you seen the abyss? I'll just start

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with that.

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Oh, yeah.

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Yep.

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An underrated film.

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Okay. So if you've seen the abyss then and then you saw it like more recently, you'll

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basically have the same take. Like there isn't a lot of like nostalgia holdover for

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it is just if you enjoy it like 10 years ago, you'll probably enjoy it just as much

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now. I count them about the same same level of enjoyment. I don't know why but that's

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okay. That's good. I rewatched fucking Hun for Red October recently. That also holds

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up. It's amazing. It's a great film.

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That the bit at the beginning where they're just talking to your Russian and you know

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that Sean Connery can't keep it up for long and he's speaking Russian with a Scottish

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accent accent and it literally just zooms in on his mouth and then zooms out of this.

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It does something like that, doesn't it?

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No, no, it's not like that. It's there. They're talking and they're in the the ward room and

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just mid sentence. They just switch. I think he says, I think he says like, yes. And then

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that was it.

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He goes, yes captain. And you just, and that's it. We're out. We're in English for the rest

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of the film and you're like, beautiful. Seamless. I barely noticed.

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I guess we're not reading reading subtitles anymore.

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Exactly. We just ran out of energy on that whole thing.

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That's it.

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Yeah, I just, we watched that film, we watched that film a little while ago and it was around

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the start of hostilities in this, in this recent push of Russian offences in Ukraine.

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And the problem is there's like three times during the hunt for red October where they

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sing the Russian national anthem and there's like the iconic one where there's all the

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sailors singing it and then Sean Connery is like, let them shun and like I would be like

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walking around the area where I live, just humming the to myself and then like, I get

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like an elbow of the ribs.

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Whoever I was with was like, you just humming the Russian national anthem. I was just like,

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oh, let them shug and they're like, you gotta get beaten up. Like you can't, there's a war

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on.

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I swore.

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I was sitting.

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Exactly. For a second there.

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Wait, hold on. Now, maybe this is a political but now I need to know. Does Brent not also

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have like a really strange section of your political area that's like per Russia right

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now? Cause in the US there's like a pretty good part and that's like, oh yeah, obviously

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Russia's doing the right thing.

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In the UK, most like town halls and things are flying the Ukrainian flag. Like it's a

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very common, like very, very, very common to see Ukrainian flags flying in public places,

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like officially. And there's quite, I mean, there's actually quite a big Ukrainian expat

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population in the UK of one kind or another, I think as well. I mean, like when I was growing

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up, I knew Ukrainian lad in my class and stuff like that. I don't know if that's like indicative

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of the entire UK, but I feel like there are a fair few Ukrainian people around and people

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are generally. So I think there's two things going on. I think there's like, I think the

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British ruling class have like let in a lot of Russian oligarch money. And I think they're

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pretty cozy with the, especially the Russian oligarchs and they own a lot of English stuff,

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a lot of stuff in England and Britain. But I think the average person on the street is

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quite anti Russia for historic, maybe like kind of latently for historical reasons. But

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then, you know, it's like, you know, the Simpsons joke where where Lenin like punches way out

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of the tomb and it's like, must go to capitalism and then, you know, all the tanks come out

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and stuff. And it's just like, we thought you guys, then we thought you guys were the

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good guys now. And I think that kind of Simpsons thing has played out. And now people are just

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like, ah, the bad guys are all along. So I don't think like, I don't think people have

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any beef with Russian people, obviously, because it's not about that. But I think people are

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like, obviously, Russia is like invading Ukraine. And that's not cool. And not a big fan of the

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Russian government.

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That's good. I have a couple of family members that are convinced that Ukraine is the aggressor.

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So that's always fun to deal with it. And like Thanksgiving. Yeah.

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That's that's a shit take really.

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It is. It is exactly.

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It's just a shit take. It's like, why are you punching yourself in the face?

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Yeah, exactly.

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Right.

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It's a shit take.

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Oh, well, anyway, yeah, I had a friend who had done a lot of touring in Russia and had quite a lot of

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the only person I can think of actually was a scout. So I used to know who was very pro Russia

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in a really weird way. And I remember when Ukraine first got invaded and that was like

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Eurovision was on. And everybody on Twitter was just being like, oh, this is awkward, the country

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invading the other country. And it was just like, it's not an invasion. There's actually a lot of

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and you're just like, oh, okay. This is the only person I know. The only other person I know who

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said something similar to that, I'm pretty sure is a Russian spy. So there's also that.

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And that is a whole, I can't, that story is honestly too long to recount. But I once met a

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Russian spy, I'm like 95% sure that she was Russian spy. And very, very, very, you know,

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you know, Ukrainians and Russians, they're all, we're all the same people.

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You're all the same people. It's all overblown in my opinion. Okay, cool. So that was

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anyway, welcome to Game of Nodes, a week podcast on the cosmos from independent

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validated teams. And we won't be telling the Russian spy stories. So

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so there, I think there is a less exciting bit of drama from the cosmos this week, which

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should see you were going to bring out. Is that right? I'm flying, I'm flying dangerously,

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not even looking at spreadsheet. You're bringing up all nodes, all nodes slash

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Jacob drama already. This is pretty early. I need like at least another eight minutes to let it simmer.

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Well, I mean, we can just talk about more. I've watched in the last, I mean,

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I watched a great documentary on contemporary Australia the other day, it was called Mad Max

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2, the road warrior. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I gather that's basically, is it the follow on to Wake and

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Fry? They go looking for the yabba and they just find that oil refinery place in the desert.

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I thought it was a prequel to finding Nemo. All those things can be true. Yeah. Wait, okay,

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okay, hold on. Sorry, I'm not sufficiently memed. You're going to have to explain that one to me.

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Finding Nemo. Have you not seen Finding Nemo? Well, you probably know it.

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I'm aware. You will soon. Okay. Okay. Well, here's some fish, right? There's some,

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there's the beginning of the fish and it gets lost at the end of the fish gets eaten by a dentist.

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No, escape from a dentist. Yes. Yes. But it like some stuff happens in the middle of miles.

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Paral. Basically, Sydney is like used a lot, right? 42 Wallaby way, Sydney or something like that.

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And just just a relation to Australia. But my hot take is that I think finding Nemo is one of

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the most rewatchable movies. I've probably seen it a hundred times. My nephews used to watch it

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basically constantly. And it's still entertaining. I can watch it now if they put it on. I'll just

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watch the entire thing. I'm totally satisfied just sitting all the way through it. More rewatchable

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the master and commander. That is a heavy claim. That's a heavy claim. Is that is the street actually

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called Wallaby Street? Wallaby Way. Yeah, I think it's 42 Wallaby. Hold on. I'm gonna put it up.

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That's weird. In Wallace and Gromit, their house is on West Wallaby Street, isn't it?

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I think it's a nod. The beloved British cartoon slash no, it's not cartoon. It's stop motion animation.

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I don't know if I'm proud or not that I actually got a spot on 42 Wallaby Way.

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Well, I wasn't kidding when I said I've probably seen it a hundred times.

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So if you watch Finding Nemo a hundred times, you get to 42 West Wallaby Way every time

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without even blinking. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So now I can bring up, I can, I can talk about the

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drama. Yeah, it's simmered a little bit. I had to prepare. We've had a bit of the simmer.

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So, okay. I guess here, here's the scope of the drama. There's always been undertones of like

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aggression towards white labeling for validators in the cosmos, right? Where white labeling,

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the idea is you as an infrastructure provider will run the actual node hardware for a,

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for someone else to like be the marker for more or less. It's kind of a decent way to put it.

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But one example of this, you could argue that like steak like Moe was white labeled because

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like he didn't have any actual involvement with the validator itself. He just kind of was the

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face of the validator, whereas he had a different entity effectively running his validator. I wouldn't

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really consider him quite white labeling, but that's the idea. And so recently it came out that

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all nodes has something like 40 or 50% of the voting power over the Luna classic chain. And I

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think about the same amount on the new Luna chain. And the way this works out is it's spread across

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a bunch of different validators that haven't announced that like someone else is actually

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running their nodes, but someone was doing like a node analysis and they found that there's like

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half validators all sitting behind like five centuries. And then they traced those validators

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back to all nodes. And the argument of whether white labeling itself can be is better not is

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one thing. But what really kind of drives the point home is that all nodes actually keeps the

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private key of the validators. So like the thing actually makes sure they're signing. And it also

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keeps the seed phrase of every node that they white label for. And that includes other things

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outside of the cosmos includes their Ethereum validators includes all of their validators.

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Do they publish that last piece? Or where did that last piece come from that they said? I know

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that was talked about that like they own all the keys or they have all the wall keys. But is that

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like confirmed or what? It was talked about in the hold on. What's the chat called? Terra Founders

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Chat. I want to say Terra Foundation League. Terra Rebirth League. It was talked about in the Terra

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Rebirth League chat. Terra Rebirth. Okay. Yeah. Was it their CEO that confirmed it or something like

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that? That I don't know. I'm only like I'm in that chat, but I don't pay too much attention to it.

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I've seen screenshots of it. I don't know if it was specifically the CEO because I don't know who

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the CEO was. I think there's someone named like Johnny or something like that. Not that that helps

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any. But my understanding is it was confirmed that they do in fact have these seed phrases and

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the private keys of all the validators. And obviously that means that they're in a sense

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they're compromised, right? If the CEO wanted to do some sort of hostile act, they could like pull

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commissions or in a sense they could basically not allow people to actually access their validator.

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And we do know that that seed phrase isn't necessarily given out to people they're white

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labeling for. So in effect, they are just running their own validators under a different name.

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But so that last piece, does that mean they're voting for them? That is correct. They're voting

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for them. That's how that came out because several of the, I think, I think part of how it came out

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is someone was talking about they were not able to vote even though they've been in the active set

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for like two months or something. They're like, Hey, we need our seed so we can actually like

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vote. Yeah, we're not like you haven't given us our seed yet. So we can't we can't vote.

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That's fucked. So back to the first piece around having that bit is because there's a whole bunch

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of things where you can go, is that the worst thing in the world? Is that the worst thing in the

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world? And we'll pause on an opinion on that for a second. And then you're like, Oh, wait, they

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didn't even have the ability to make a wallet, right, that represented that. I mean, that's

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that's a true really white labeling though, is it? That's not white labeling, right?

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That is just pay to play, isn't it? It's something that's not white labeling. It's

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something that is, I think that is just civil as a service, isn't it?

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Yeah, because I'm guessing the initial stake and everything else was from whatever those

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customers are, right? Because they had to probably buy in to get to the set because all

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nodes is not doing that. So they're, they're in essence, running the infrastructure and be curious

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to know what the financials are of this. I mean, I'd be interested to really know what the financials

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are of those of those arrangements. But yeah, I mean, the thing is, it's like, like Todd just

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said in the chat, this takes it from, you know, the users having full custody of their,

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or the validators, having full custody over their tokens to now the service has full custody. And

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that's kind of like breaking a pretty, I mean, honestly, a spoken contract of, of running validators.

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Now you're, now you're talking about like the people inherently that are delegating to these

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compromised validators, that contract between the validator and the delegators kind of broke

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that contract of up trust and in my opinion of, I don't know, at least who you think you're

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delegating with, right? Because you're actually, I mean, literally, all those people are delegated

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with all notes is really kind of the idea, right? So they have full custody of the keys and everything

230
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else associated that it's interesting. The governance thing is really everybody gets all

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wrapped up around the governance because of that component. So if they're not, if they're just like

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a tell us how you want to vote these shares and they, and they vote them, that's one thing. If

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they're not even like, if they're not responding to their own customer's requests on governance votes,

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that's, that's pretty, god damn ridiculous. That's crazy. And so as, as things do in the cosmos,

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this came to a head with Jacob Gideke and bringing out into the public. And I guess at this point,

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as of today, he has been rejected from the, the lunacy. There's some doubt that he's been

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basically kicked out of because for bringing this up for bringing it up. Yep. Yeah. Nice.

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Was, was it the bringing it up or was it the way in which he was brought up?

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That's fair. Yeah. Probably the way because part of their statement was like part one,

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Jacob is exiting Dow. Part two, everything Jacob has said, we don't necessarily believe his words

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are his own. So then they do the research and go, Oh shit, this is happening. Yeah. I'm curious

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that what you said before, like they're running five proxies and have a bunch of signing notes

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behind that. How the fuck are they doing that? I thought that was one to one. I thought you

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couldn't have, you can't have one. Can you have one century communicate with multiple

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Horcrux structures? You cannot. They're not using Horcrux. What would they use? So they just have

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five century servers and then a bunch of validator notes behind one to one. Just like a, you can't

247
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have, you can't have one century communicating with multiple signers. Can you? Well, it just

248
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shares peer information, right? And so century is kind of like a layer of indirection. So

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Oh, you're talking like old school, like the actual private peer and like separate. So they're

250
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running validator notes. They're not running signers or any validator notes. And then they're

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just communicating. They have a private network internally. That's for sure. Oh, that makes sense.

252
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Like 18 months ago, two years ago, state of the art. That is some of fish. Exactly right.

253
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That is some of fish at fucking sibling right there. That's a pretty good idea. The accepted

254
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like the accepted security model, which everyone shoved down your throat when you started in

255
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those most which I forgot about that. But, but that actually that that architecture makes a

256
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lot of sense for the sibling structure. So kudos to them about, about running.

257
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That architecture totally makes sense in this situation. Like that's perfect. Like that's

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really smart. And I was like, how the hell did they do that?

259
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Another way like as soon as it was like, we need a word for this is like, it's like, it's like a

260
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simple node architecture. Then block payment was just in the traffic. It's called full custody.

261
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That's literally the technical term. It's like, oh yeah, of course, there would be that that is

262
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actually the term. It's not simple architecture. I'm not, I'm not impressed with the overall

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situation. But this architecture of what they're doing illegally totally makes sense. Like this

264
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is a highly approved architecture for is this illegal? Is this illegal? Like whatever you want

265
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to call it allegedly, allegedly usurpers call the FBI. Well, I mean, I think there's a funny

266
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thing about this for like, the question becomes, is the actual network then behind those centuries?

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Because I think, I think they have more than 50% of the voting power. So that means those

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cities are dividing like the dark net versus classic nodes is lunacy. Yeah, basically,

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from a like a very real legal perspective. Basically, yeah, the true, the true king of the

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shitcoins. How did a network end up with greater than 50% civil power? That's fucking crazy.

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Okay, promise that on lunacy, it's like 60%. Okay, so

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fucking insanity. That's amazing. So 60% is run by all nodes all behind these the same

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infrastructure, all at Hetzner, right? I think everybody somebody came back to say they're

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all at Hetzner, right? Or I think that was a Jacob structure. I mean, it's huge, huge.

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Why? And for the people who are all nodes customers, did you know this was the structure

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before you got involved in this? Because you don't have to be in the cosmos too long to actually look

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at a white label contract and say, Oh, shit, I own nothing here. Right. So like, I'm curious on

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who those who those groups are. And if they walked into that knowing, Oh, this is the situation that

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we're going to get, or they signed a contract blind and then they bent over or something.

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It's a really, I mean, I mean, you guys would agree, right? Like, like, if you saw that situation,

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if you're in the cosmos for more than a week, and recognize that you're going to run a node,

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but you have no custody of the wallet keys, you have no custody of the of the node itself,

283
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that's when you walk like, it's pretty crazy. Why though, right? Like, if you don't have the

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skills to run the validator, but you want to run a validator, and you can use your marketing chops

285
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to run the validator, it's still a good deal for you. Right? Because depends on what depends on

286
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what they're charging, because there are a lot of white labels in the cosmos, there's a ton of

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them, right? And and and you could do you could Google cosmos white label, and you can come up

288
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with that, you know, a dozen different vendors that are that are offering nodes and those types

289
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of situations, even like bison trails and shit, right? Like in that, in that old situation,

290
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didn't they get bought out? And then yeah, coinbase. Yeah, yeah. They might still do that.

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They used to do that in the helium side for a long time. So they still do. So the funny thing

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about that about that is bison trails actually owned a lot of lunacy originally. And that's part

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of where this issue came into be, because they ran a bunch of nodes, and they just signed all of them

294
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off whenever Luna forked. And then that made all those basically gain control of the network.

295
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And Todd just said, at least they'll give the keys over, which I didn't know. So that's that's

296
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one thing. So basically, they both have the keys, right? So I guess say that goes against what you

297
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said before about them not being able to govern though. And Coinbase cloud, which is bison trails

298
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usually will not. That's right. I've heard that too. Like they own the whole infrastructure.

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And basically, you're just a customer like as a right as a SAS type of idea. Meanwhile,

300
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null is just changing backgrounds. Are you in this conversation or what are you doing over there?

301
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Oh, it's just I was looking at the whole nerds websites.

302
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This is what reminds me of like in general, I'm just always surprised by

303
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the size of some of those huge providers like the I think it's like Block Demon, like they were on

304
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they were the ones I think got up on stage at Gateway and Prague last year. And they were like,

305
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okay, I'm not I'm just going to like be a bitch and just be like they're basically like we're

306
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Billy Big Balls blockchain. We own big balls blockchain.com newsflash. They did. We're just

307
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we're just like the best and everything. And then what's funny is like obviously,

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like Cosmas is like some pissant tiny ecosystem compared to Ethereum, fine, whatever. But they

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did double sign, you know, like literally the other day, like, won't say the company was talking

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to an account manager for a thing. And they were like, kind of doing the sales part of trying to

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press you. They're just like, I'm sorry, something block demon. And I was just like, oh, yeah,

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they double signed in our ecosystem. And they're like, what's that? And I was like, basically

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cost people money through a mistake, you know, but but actually, you know, it's a mistake maybe we

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can all make. So me being facetious about it is maybe actually just like keeping problems on my

315
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own future self. And this poor account managers like, sorry, what am I? Oh, so like double signing,

316
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right? So what happens? And, and then like, well, okay, so we were going to tell you about this

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product. And I was like, no, no, it's very bright. So there are two parts to a Cosmos validator,

318
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right? And so we've got a pen. And they, and they, they just said something about connection issues.

319
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And then, and then, and then they, they dropped off the call. I don't know why they've been trying

320
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to rearrange it. But yeah, they were trying to impress me before that we have that unfortunate

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connection issue. They're trying to impress me by mentioning block demon.

322
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Amazing. I know we, well, yeah, this is a pretty good website. Like these guys have got this stitched

323
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up. Like, they got a good website. There's been $1,000 on the website. So they must be great.

324
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No, it's just, it's so captive. Like, if you go like, so they've just done a good job at like

325
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making it captive and giving you options. So like, they've got all these networks that they're running

326
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right. They must have fucking a thousand people working for them. But the prices are like, in

327
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some cases up there in a, in a bear market. But if, if this was like a big ball, like, you know,

328
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to not to have a full hands off approach, it's like, it's putting a big ball's blockchains,

329
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not bad. And, but when you go into the networks, right, it's got the first one up there is actually,

330
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it's got two options. It says you can stake now or host now. You click the host now button,

331
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you go and create a validator, right? But then you click, if you click the stake now, it actually

332
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takes you to like a staking page, which is captive in their website, you connect your wallet and you

333
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and you state through their website. So they don't let you out at all. There's no external links.

334
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It's pretty well done if you're like catching users anyway.

335
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Well, I think they're one of the biggest Ethereum providers for validators. So they can forward

336
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it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they've, she's so like the note, 720 a month for a Cardano node.

337
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480 a month and the basic for a Asmo node plus advanced plan of a buck 40 an hour, I think,

338
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or 570 an hour for enterprise plan. I don't know what those differences are.

339
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What is it? Is that you get your keys for that?

340
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For the 570. 570 you can vote.

341
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What happens if they double sign you?

342
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I'm sure they have some patrol. I'm sure there's insurance on this, right?

343
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So is there any, is there any mention of it? Because like a traditional insurer to provide

344
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your obvious isn't going to give you fucking shit. And as if all nodes have got,

345
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over a guest double signing penalties aren't that massive, are they? I mean, they are,

346
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they suck, but like they're not colossal if you're a company with a few million in the bank,

347
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especially at today's prices. Right. Yeah. But 380 for a Juno node?

348
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You got $308. $360. I'm not sure what the advanced lands adds because that adds

349
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another 700 bucks. That's pretty cheap. Something 360 cheaper than your AWS brother. Move it over.

350
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,720
I mean, I see other you can snark all your like those nodes on AWS anymore,

351
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motherfucker. You should pay more attention rather than just being on your visit to the zoo.

352
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There is an option to migrate a node. Yeah, I know you move.

353
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Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. I saw the migration. They run a shitload of nodes. Oh man.

354
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They are the number one provider on stakingrewards.com by a defining margin. Like they have $2 billion

355
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:13,920
in stake value. The next one is 1.2 billion. Wow. Don't advertise that shitty fucking website bro.

356
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But is that, is that, I wonder if that, that's their numbers, right? I'm wonder if they're

357
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talking about all of their, I assume that's all their customer nodes, right? So it's not really

358
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,440
imagine. It's not really a fair fight, right? Cause they're basically a symbol. Cause they're

359
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selling every single network. Our symbols worth $2 billion. Yeah. Hey guys, just FYI,

360
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,880
you can get a passage node for 360 a month. So I know you guys are going to run right out.

361
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:42,960
I mean, we are making big bucks on passage right now. Huge alpha. Definitely GMI. So,

362
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:51,040
you know, invest now, invest now. Well, I mean, meeting extra blocks, you could do that on a

363
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fucking Raspberry Pi. So yeah, we're never passing. Does passage have wasm enabled? Cause it has

364
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wasm enabled and you can't run it on a Raspberry Pi. I don't know actually. It's only a problem when

365
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:09,040
they like make a wasm transaction, right? I mean, it's true. You could get one of those blades when

366
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they come out and try and make a, try and make a 19 inch rack full of Raspberry Pi. Man, those,

367
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:22,400
those blades look fucking slick. I love, I love pie clustering. Me too. Pie clustering is awesome.

368
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,760
Yeah. There's, there's even just like some little trays you can fit five, five nodes in,

369
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,200
yeah, well, no, it's, yeah, pies and I love them. I see them. I'm just like, oh, that's

370
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fucking cool. You just can't, you can't get the fucking piezo. I don't need that at all.

371
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You can't get the piezo like they're so back ordered, or at least they are here in the U.S.

372
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I know, I know elsewhere there's a little bit more, but the back even the, even the CM modules are

373
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back ordered because I was looking at, because they have boards like you were talking about in all

374
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that has like maybe four or eight nodes, but it takes the, the compute module, but you don't have

375
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the whole pie. You just like stick like each card in there on like a, on like a PCB of some sort.

376
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Like that's awesome. Like in a one U with like eight of those things shoved in there with a

377
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couple of network cards in the back. That's awesome. I just sold Raspberry Pi for, go ahead.

378
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I was just going to say, there's, there's this one tray. It's got like a little LCD screen for

379
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:17,200
all of the five pie and it's got like little fucking USB L's. It's so cute. Yeah. You should go

380
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,240
and look at a Jeff Geerling on YouTube. I think it's awesome. You were watching that guy?

381
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That's where I get all my pie from Jeff. He's a good dude. Like he's like,

382
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,640
that's where the blade thing comes from, isn't it? Yeah. He tests all those and they send him a

383
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,800
bunch of those. He's just like, he's a good engineer and like he, he's a fun dude. So go

384
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,400
watch him on YouTube. He's a great, great to watch. I have some friends that used to work for the

385
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:44,560
Raspberry Pi foundation and there's a lot of, yeah, it sounds like a strange organization.

386
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:51,280
Yeah. Did you say that you sold one recently for like a gold bar?

387
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,000
Yeah, more or less. I sold it for over double what I bought for like a year ago. Dude, I

388
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,680
would have taken that. Is that, is that the most impressive trade this year then from one of us?

389
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:09,120
Could be. Oh my God. I don't know. I had a pretty impressive trade last year going through my

390
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:15,520
fucking coin lever. I can't find where three grand came from. I had one spectacularly bad trade that

391
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:22,400
was so bad our company accountants were like, oh, that's great. That's a good loss to write off.

392
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:31,440
I would have preferred to have made somebody and they were like, well, yes, but at least this way,

393
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,080
it's a loss in a way that we could work with. And I was like, you lose, you lose large.

394
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,800
They're like, if you can, if you're going to lose, lose it in a way that's very clearly documented

395
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:46,080
and it's not capital gains loss, but it's an income loss because then you can put it on. Yeah,

396
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:53,440
exactly. Capsicum loss. I can't even remember. Let's just put it this way.

397
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,920
Nope, he's frozen. He was so upset. He's frozen. He's literally broken Australia.

398
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:08,880
Some sort of some sort of quality at the cable. Oh, the the fucking, the Starlink's been pretty

399
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:15,520
skewed. Ah, fucking Elon. So I realized we literally have, I've managed to devise that off

400
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:22,880
of Cosmos again a little bit, but is it, is it, is it the, the, the, was it confluence of the

401
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,560
spit, the spheres? What the fuck is from the witch? I can't, I was trying to make a reference there.

402
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:33,440
It's died. Fuck it. We're moving on. Is it Burns night and Australia day on the same day? It must

403
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,840
be. Is it Australia day today? Oh, no, wait, tomorrow. You're in tomorrow, aren't you? It's

404
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:46,960
26. Yeah. It's a 26. Well, how about it's Australia day right now. So in 20 in on the 26th. So Burns

405
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,480
night was yesterday for you. Yeah, but it's still the same time in UTC. So, so you've got a whiskey

406
00:33:52,480 --> 00:34:00,480
hangover. And now you need to immediately start drinking, uh, Castle Wayne, my go to reference

407
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:07,680
of an Australian beer, VB. Yeah, I mean, I was going to go for a swim in the zoo later on. So

408
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,960
I don't know that like it's good idea to start drinking with the animals. Do it. Do it. Do it.

409
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,840
Do it. River Phoenix. Sure. I don't know what the fuck that is, but let's do it.

410
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,840
Well, did River Phoenix drown swimming the Mississippi River while drunk?

411
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:28,560
Really? That's what happened? Isn't that correct? No. Oh, no. Are you thinking of Jeff Buckley?

412
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,400
You think of Jeff Buckley? Yeah. They were recording and he went out afterwards and

413
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:40,240
literally swam the Mississippi drowned, right? Yeah. Yeah. People will have remembered River

414
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:46,480
Phoenix drowned in a river that had been like river unlucky for some. That's what that is.

415
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,960
I don't want to say OD, but did he OD? That's what I was under the pressure.

416
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,880
Yeah. You're thinking of Jeff Buckley. I know Jeff Buckley drowned in the Mississippi. I remember

417
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,480
that because it was like, I think it was like late night or something similar that and he ran out

418
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:06,480
or something. Yeah. And he just got swept away and that was it. Yep. That's an OD on

419
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,880
cocaine and heroin, a mixture commonly known as a speedball. That's right. Yeah.

420
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,600
Use an LA or something similar to that, I think. There's a lot of mention of speedballs in the

421
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,040
book mentioned on the previous episode of the podcast, Homicide by Paul Simon. Paul Simon,

422
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:26,000
what am I doing today? David Simon. David Simon who wrote The Wire, not Paul Simon who wrote

423
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,320
Graceland. What is wrong with today? Close. They could really, they're almost the same people. I'm

424
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:37,920
just like 95% to the right answer. It's a fine line. It's a fine line. It's still a stupid

425
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,920
line between stupid and clever. Yeah. It's just never worked. Turnabout.

426
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,080
I love you. You're welcome. You prepared that. I did. I was hoping it would come up today.

427
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:58,320
Have you prepared a Twitter? What is it? Your Twitter quote of the week? Have you prepared

428
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:04,000
one? Your drill tweet. My official drill book is at different locations.

429
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,720
1,000 kilometers away from where I am quite right now.

430
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:13,760
Fucking with the program. How perfect is it that a book of digital tweets that are available

431
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,600
everywhere at all time is a thousand miles away from Houston? Now you can't pull up a drill tweet.

432
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,840
It's pretty unfortunate. Somehow it went from digital to analog to digital,

433
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,400
but you can't make it happen. Are you doing search? I think he's doing a search on drill tweets.

434
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:34,320
I was just checking. I was going to attempt to quote my favorite one from memory, but then I was

435
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:40,160
like, I chickened out. So I was like, it's so long suckers. I rev up my motorcycle and create a huge

436
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,880
cloud of smoke. When the cloud dissipates, I'm lying completely dead on the pavement.

437
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:50,960
There you go. That's my answer. It's not original to have that as your favorite drill

438
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,240
tweet, but I think it sums up almost everything that is great about drill.

439
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:02,320
But yeah, there's also a new drill book, which I need to go and read, or newish. I think it's

440
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:07,920
called The God Method, How to Become God, something like that. Others in the chat,

441
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:14,160
but it sounds great. I can't wait to read it. Once I finish this history of the privatization of

442
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,480
the military, I'm going to read the drill book. How do you fit in with all these documentaries,

443
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,840
you're watching? Lots of documentaries. Yeah, I've got another one lined up. It's called

444
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,880
Beyond Thunderdome. I think it's about current Australian government economic policy, something

445
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:36,240
like that. Tina Turner's in it weirdly. Never heard it before. Why would you be reading a book about

446
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:42,800
Australian politics? So you admit that is true. That just blew. Do you see what happened there?

447
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,520
So we admit that is Australian politics. Straight over, Niles. He's just like either

448
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,800
he's complicit in the joke or it's so straight over his head. I'm looking at other things. I was

449
00:37:52,800 --> 00:38:01,040
actually just looking at... I've rehashed all of my nodes lately. You've rehashed all of your nodes?

450
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:09,440
No, I've just rearranged how I have them all arranged, if that makes sense. And how I operate

451
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:15,120
the actual node itself, because we're on Horcrux, we've changed to using RAID 0 and everything

452
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:23,520
with four NVMe drives. Man, these things are fucking humming. They are going really well now.

453
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:30,160
Are you doing that with the... Even fast chains like RAID 0 or even F-MOS is pretty quick, right?

454
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:33,360
Are you doing that with those two and seeing less misses and everything?

455
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:40,560
Yeah, my misses are really good, have been for a while. But yeah, man.

456
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:47,440
Defri, I want to know how your experience has been getting away from AWS into the world of

457
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:53,840
degeneracy? That's easy. We run a route sign-in, so all you do is you trash the old,

458
00:38:54,560 --> 00:39:00,720
you bring up a new node somewhere else, connect it, sync it. Thank you, Paul Kajoo.

459
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:05,120
So did you go...

460
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:10,320
You went with the... Did you have to rewrite all Ansible scripts and everything,

461
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,680
or write Ansible scripts and everything, or did you go with someone else who just do it manually?

462
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:20,320
We already have some Ansible. I think either forked off of Shorzoo's fork of Bulkor or

463
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:28,720
somewhere upstream, it's Bulkor's Ansible. And we wrote... I rewrote a bunch of things to suit

464
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,320
the way that I like the node to be set up that's different. Yeah, same. Yeah.

465
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:40,240
So yeah, there's like basically kept the core of the SSH hardening, because that's exactly what we do.

466
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:46,800
The firewall enabling stuff, obviously, and then basically stripped out of the stuff,

467
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:54,240
install and configure Cosmovisor in the way that we want, add a system defile for that,

468
00:39:54,240 --> 00:40:02,880
some other bits and pieces. And one thing that... And also, we... It's not really necessary, but

469
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:11,760
additionally, having two-factor auth and stuff is we tend to do that using Google Authenticator

470
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:20,320
or a compatible 2FA solution over the SSH. So that's like... We just... That stuff as well.

471
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:25,600
But it ended up being a bit of a faff, because I forgot that when you fork something off GitHub,

472
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,560
you can't change the visibility unless you basically trash the GitHub history.

473
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,400
So there's kind of... I think in our company one, there's like a fork, which is like the...

474
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,800
When we just need to bring up a box, we have like one fork. And then when it's actually a node,

475
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,560
we have like another one, which is almost exactly the same, but I've just trashed the GitHub history

476
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,880
on it because I was really tired when I did it. I was just like, I'm just going to push a new repo.

477
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,680
Fuck it. If you message GitHub, they'll cut the fork out, so you'll keep the history,

478
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,400
but then you can make it private because I've done that before. But it does require explicitly

479
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,640
that you mess it up. There's no way to do it in an automated fashion. That's weird. I mean,

480
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,440
it kind of makes sense that there must be some historical raisins reason for it.

481
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:14,560
I've done the same. I think I forked Schultz. I think I took your version. And I've rewritten...

482
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,480
Plus, I've added all the other stuff like Aptos and all the stuff we do for Stargaze APIs.

483
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:25,520
And Chainlink stuff and everything. It's all in there. Plus, I'm running Ansible Vault on

484
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,560
50% of those files maybe because it might be a... Not necessarily secrets, just like some server

485
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,760
addresses or other types of things. I might be running HAProxy or something I don't want to put

486
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,800
out there. So then I always get worried about fucking checking in a non-voltage file just on

487
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,960
accident. And so it'd be nice to take some of that private, even though I mean, I want to respect

488
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,280
the work that was done because all that kicked it off for me. But I've changed so much of it just

489
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:55,760
because... I have nothing to contribute back. That's my issue. Because even me putting all

490
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,400
these different chains on one repo is probably not the right way, but I'm so far into it. And then

491
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,600
I would never do a PR back on some of that stuff because there might be some things like maybe

492
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:10,480
some setup or main type of things. But everything is my way, right? Same thing that Frey said.

493
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,760
It might be specific security things that I want to do. That might not make sense for you guys.

494
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:19,760
Yeah, exactly. And the core of the most useful things I think in the Ansible script. And

495
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:25,440
actually, if you're a validator listening to this and you are a bit unsure about some basic

496
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:31,040
best practice for setting up boxes, like you should check out Polkatoos, secure server setup. It's a

497
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:38,240
good base for starting, which is just set up the firewall, set up correctly, ban everything that's

498
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:43,440
not the exact ports you expect to be using for the current use of that server, harden your

499
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:49,200
SSH configuration, and then you can add additional things on top of that if you want. So like in

500
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:54,320
our case, that's like, we like having 2FA because another thing that 2FA does is it

501
00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:01,920
automatically stops people just like spamming or 2FA and what? So SSH. So through what?

502
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:09,120
What's that? So through what service? You can set up. You can basically just use Google

503
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,680
Authenticators. You can set up. There's a package for that, right? Is that what you guys are doing?

504
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,680
Yeah. We don't have anything exposed, so I'm just curious. No, no, no. That 2FA is actually built

505
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:27,040
in the SSHD in the oven, then. Isn't there an option? So it's a lot. Yeah, so SSHD, you can

506
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:33,680
configure a, basically a check that will challenge people. And I don't know if under the hood,

507
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:38,720
it's actually using the same password challenge. It's just TRTP, right? It's just giving you a,

508
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:42,160
it's giving you a TOBT code and your, whatever you do on your phone and blah, blah, blah.

509
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,400
Right? Yeah. I mean, like on the phone, just use Google Authenticators, or the use whatever

510
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:52,640
application. Can you use the same to, can you use the same code off of every server or you are

511
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,920
actually per server generating 2FA? You can configure that however you want because it's

512
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,720
just dot files. Okay. So you can, you can pick a, you can pick a secret and then that generates

513
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:11,120
the same TOBT or whatever, right? Okay. So you can actually, if you want, you can automate it to the

514
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:18,240
point of having all the config in Ansible and then actually having the file on your machine

515
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,800
for the configuration and then just push and then it just bootstraps the server,

516
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:29,200
grabs the file and then the server is, is like once it's done, you can only get in with the 2FA.

517
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:38,000
Yeah. I have to say, I don't like having that file shuffled around by a automated service.

518
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,440
So it does everything else, but then doesn't restart the demon. And then you could basically

519
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:48,480
jump in, make the final change, restart the demon, and then it'll kick you out.

520
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,680
And then you just log back in and it'll work. Or you can log back in another session before

521
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,640
you actually restart it in. Actually, I don't think it does the SSH session. So I think you're

522
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,840
fine. I think it's just if you have a log out, then you have to log back in, then you'll have

523
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,080
cocked it up. So you can just do the classic open another window and just double check it works.

524
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:14,560
Right. Right. But yeah. That's cool. That's pretty useful. Yeah. That's nice. Nice structure on it.

525
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,000
Like as long as it doesn't get annoying, where like you, I mean, honestly, I don't know if there,

526
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:24,640
has there ever been like a SSH key, not even a RSA key, but the newer EE, whatever,

527
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,280
for the whole thing are called. 12, 5, 5, 9 or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Has there ever been a

528
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,040
any sort of comfort? I mean, other than you losing obviously at private, but that's never

529
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,960
been compromised, right? So no, so really, you're just, it's one more factor on you losing the

530
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,920
private. That's all really that does. Right. Yeah. And because it, it like it has a sort of

531
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:49,760
debouncing effect as well, because you can only make so many requests in 30 seconds or whatever

532
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:55,600
the configuration time is. And that's just like configuration on the demon. So you could, it

533
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:02,000
gives you another way of essentially rejecting requests that come in that are unknown. But we

534
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:09,360
don't do that on every server anymore purely because we have more as we move more stuff towards

535
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:15,440
bare metal, we have more throwaway servers than we used to. Right. We used to rely on a lot of AWS

536
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:21,600
services that kind of plug into the node you're running. We had, we ran more testnet boxes,

537
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:28,160
we were speculatively running more testnets and looking to run more main nets. And of course,

538
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:33,040
we've come off of main nets recently as well, which were all on AWS. So those boxes are just gone.

539
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:43,600
And for things like utility boxes, if a year ago, I think being at that point a lot more tired

540
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:51,440
and a lot more paranoid, we'd have been looking to put 2FA on like everything. Now, if I can

541
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:56,160
answer it, I can just trash the box. If I think there's a problem with the box, I'm just trash it,

542
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:01,520
but rebuild it. And it's a couple of hours of work to, you know, for things like monitoring or

543
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:08,400
whatever, re, re, move point stuff at something else. So the, that, that has changed, I suppose,

544
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,840
in terms of actually having 2FA set up and things like that. Yeah. Once you start using,

545
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:18,400
honestly, like with, with Ansible and plus using the same two or three vendors that we,

546
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,840
I mean, we have stuff in-house, but when we use outside vendors, like I can get,

547
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:26,880
I can get a box and a node running in like eight minutes on any chain. Like just from,

548
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,600
from bare metal, whatever they give me to running two or three Ansible commands. I mean, it's so

549
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:37,760
much, it's, and it feels good. Like there's, there's a lot to be said for automation when it

550
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,960
comes to that. Like having all your tools there and everything looks the same. And you know,

551
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,280
I know what machine I'm on and the security side, but is that, is that, it's like,

552
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,520
fucking yeah. I'm always a bit surprised when I, when I run the Ansible script and the set and

553
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:54,400
everything kind of works. And then I'm like, oh, I should literally just have to install the binary.

554
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,200
Yeah. Copy it into the Cosmify as a directory and then start. I don't even do that. I Ansible,

555
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,840
all that shit too. Do you? I Ansible upgrades. I Ansible, just the initial, I mean, I mean,

556
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,200
knowing that, like if you're starting from the current version, it's a new box and it goes,

557
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,920
it's going into Genesis, right? So I don't have to worry about upgrade folders and that kind of

558
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:15,280
shit. And then I run it. How good is the, how good is the new version of Cosmovisor with

559
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,960
Cosmovisor and knit? I bet it's everyone uses that now, right? Cosmovisor and knit.

560
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,240
1.0 for life, baby.

561
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:23,600
Roll in 1.0.

562
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,640
I'm such a 1.4. Now.

563
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:29,200
Are you?

564
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,920
It's like, yeah, it's so much better. Yeah.

565
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:33,120
Why is it? What's better?

566
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:38,720
I just like the init just makes things easy. It's just one command instead of like having to

567
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:40,880
type in a bunch and then copy.

568
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,200
To help copy binaries around or things like that. Is that, is that, is helping just say

569
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,080
a nation of that?

570
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,640
So you just do, when you, when you're starting your chain up, like you install the binary in

571
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:57,840
Cosmovisor and use Cosmovisor init and then point it to the binary. So you just set your

572
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,160
environment variables first and then point it to the binary and then it'll create like the

573
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,880
Genesis folder, the upgrades folder, the link, it'll copy the binary to the Genesis folder

574
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:08,960
and just set everything up.

575
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:14,000
I think he's making the argument of 1.4 versus pretty one, not one versus 1.4.

576
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,280
Well, one, you can't use init. I don't think.

577
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:18,800
Really? I thought that's when it started.

578
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:20,960
No, I don't think it's in one.

579
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:21,920
I don't even know.

580
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,600
All the, all the logging issues are fixed and all that type of stuff. Like it's just a way

581
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:30,720
slicker tool now. But they've moved the fucking thing as well, which is kind of annoying in the

582
00:49:30,720 --> 00:49:38,400
repository. But I was going to say something to you, Tray, with your hardening script, if you are

583
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:47,600
using, well, everyone should probably do this anyway, but if you're using OVH, they actually

584
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:57,120
have some custom config in the SSHD config.d folder and it enables password authentication in

585
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,880
that. So you need to clear that folder out of stuff as well.

586
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,520
You mean, you mean this, were you talking about what we talked about with suitors?

587
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,560
So when you're hardening, yeah.

588
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:11,440
Yeah. When you're hardening on your node in your Ansible script, you just need to clear

589
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:22,080
out the SSHD underscore config.d of random, did I get rogue? No, just random conf files.

590
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:28,640
Because there's this 50 cloud init file, which actually has password authentication. Yes,

591
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:36,480
in it. So it'll override the main default config. So when you use, even if you use line in file,

592
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:45,120
or if you're using, there's actually an SSH module that you can set configurations with,

593
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:51,680
it just does it in the main file. And then if it exists in that config.d, it actually

594
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,880
overrides the main file one. So you just have to make sure you clear that out.

595
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,800
I have nothing on my OVH boxes on that folder. I actually just look because that actually

596
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:05,600
worried me, but I've never seen anything in there. Same. Etc. SSHD underscore config.d.

597
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:11,280
Empty. 50-cloud init. Empty. Well, it's on every one of my boxes.

598
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,360
That's weird. I wonder what that is. Yeah, that would be bad. This should not be doing.

599
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:21,280
Actually, maybe it depends on what, like I'm running from a Debian 11. I'm using their image,

600
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:26,320
unfortunately, but just making changes based on drive structure. But I'm using the Debian 11

601
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,920
image. So maybe that's a, maybe that's different based on image that you're pulling from.

602
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:38,800
Yeah. Well, I use, I use the Ubuntu 20.04. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe I'm just lucky because

603
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:44,880
I'm on Debian. Yeah, maybe. But I would check it anyway for anyone. What are you using, Shilty?

604
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:51,200
Boot 20 as well, but it has some custom setup. Anyway, worth a check. I just noticed that when

605
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:56,240
you're doing it. So like, I take all the inspo as well from all of your guys' scripts, actually,

606
00:51:56,240 --> 00:52:02,160
like, you, sir, you linked me to some of yours and Shilty and Okutu have taken inspo from all of

607
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,960
those, but essentially ended up writing them all myself anyway. And that was mainly a learning

608
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:12,160
thing for me because I'd never used the answer before. So it is easier for me to learn if I

609
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,800
actually go and write the whole thing and make all the mistakes while I'm doing it.

610
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:22,240
That's right. Yeah. So yeah, it's actually, you know, fuck, it's so much, so much better than

611
00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:28,000
doing it manually. Like, well, just so much better. You just, yeah. Then you get in the other situation

612
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,160
where if I make any change to a box, I'm like, why the fuck am I doing this? Like,

613
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:39,360
why am I typing? Like, and any change that comes up, like, if somebody does not follow the structure

614
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,960
or they use like their own binary, which is somebody is okay, or if they have like a different

615
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,920
init script, or they run like setup scripts in their own repo, instead of actually just doing

616
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:53,760
a make install and all that type of thing. Like, ah, god damn it, like breaking my shit. I mean,

617
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,840
I've added to make install to a lot of networks just because of that. I'm like, no, I'm not putting

618
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,840
up a new crap. I'm just gonna throw some lines into a variable in there and everything. Yeah.

619
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,480
Right. The only problem is that you start getting to like even like, we, I think, I forget what

620
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:11,440
chain we were just on that has a newer version of the Cosmos SDK.

621
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:15,120
You're about say DevNet. That's what you're talking about. Is this a DevNet?

622
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:20,240
Where some of the core commands didn't work? Some of the core commands are different. Oh,

623
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:23,520
and the config is different. That's what it was. Maybe it was, you're right. You're right.

624
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:29,040
Chelsea is it was say DevNet where like, they moved all the config structure in the files from a dash

625
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:34,880
to an underscore. So all my sets break. And then I think there was a bunch of changes in there.

626
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,560
I think it's no longer inbound and outbound connections. It's now just a total connections

627
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,800
and let the node figure it out. There's a bunch of stuff in there. The non-logger seeds, they're

628
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:47,040
called like bootstrap here. That's right. Bootstrap here. So the seed is gone. And actually, I think

629
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:52,800
those nodes even read, I ran a, I ran a, an actual tender seed node. And I think the nodes

630
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:58,720
rejected that because they actually wanted another actual seed binary running as a bootstrap here

631
00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:03,040
instead of a seed or something like that. It was like, there's a, anyway, there's changes coming.

632
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:08,080
So there might, this, this, this fork might get forked again for having to manage chains that

633
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:14,800
are on, what was that? Is that 47 or 46 or something? I think it's 47. I want to say it's 47.

634
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,160
Originally it was 46 back when Nevercraft was the first one using it, I want to say.

635
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,960
And then it was pretty unstable originally. So I think it pushed back.

636
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:27,200
Yeah. I'm down for, I mean, change is cool. I'm not, not, I'm down playing that. It's,

637
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,120
all that stuff is good. It's just, that's just, you know, one of the downsides of automation is

638
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:35,600
you gotta, you gotta manage that shit, right? Actually, just realized that craft is like

639
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:42,960
officially down now. I would think so. Finally stopped. Well, even though, no, I mean, like the,

640
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,360
the blockchain, like the test sets down, but their website's actually down now. So I think that it

641
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,560
is officially buttoned up. Is this it? Is this the first one?

642
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:59,040
It's officially rugged. Actually, before it began. So when, with your, your configurations,

643
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:06,720
you surf, I, I am going to move because I haven't done the configuration scripts yet. I know you

644
00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:14,400
guys use like set or line in file for all of your configs changing the config.toml and

645
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:20,640
app.toml. I'm actually going to change and start putting all of those into my system

646
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:26,240
d files as environmental variables. I really like that idea. I was thinking the same thing.

647
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:31,280
Like I, I, the only issue with that for me is like, you can't just fire the binary up on its own

648
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,200
without running it through system d. And so you're kind of dependent on Cosmovisor and the

649
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,320
folder structure and all that kind of stuff. Cause sometimes like if we're troubleshooting,

650
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,840
I'll just run the binary manually because I want to be able to be live and be able to kill it.

651
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:46,800
And I don't want to tail shit out and everything else. But I, but the idea of being able to ignore

652
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:52,480
the config and run it all through like, like a pass in variables in on system d is actually

653
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:56,320
pretty, pretty, it's pretty strong for automation versus like setting out the file and everything.

654
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:02,480
Yeah. Setting the files and bad pain, unless you have, unless you just maintain the config file

655
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:08,240
locally on your, but it just makes it easier to see like what you're actually changing.

656
00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:12,880
So when, you know, when you're trying to troubleshoot the issues with bloody, you know,

657
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:17,360
on a test or something, you can just go, well, I've got these settings rather than having to

658
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,680
be like, oh, fuck, you know, this, that and the other. So yeah, let me know how it goes. But that,

659
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,440
but that stuff back up, it'd be interesting to try that. I just didn't know if everything,

660
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,800
we talked about this on the channel, but I wasn't sure if everything that was available

661
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:34,800
was actually command line available. It's all available as, um, as environmental variables,

662
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:42,560
I'm pretty sure, because you can either set them when you call the, um, the binary in the,

663
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:48,720
in the line that calls the binary, um, or you can just set them all as environment variables

664
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:53,760
for when you start the binary. I just, I'm not sure if can, uh, Cosmovisor will affect that at

665
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,280
all, but, um, I guess, should be right. You just environment variables in the system,

666
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,480
Defile. I don't think Cosmos, it's not really doing anything, right? So it's running the binary

667
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,000
with those. That's a good question, actually. Now that I'm thinking about it, because you're

668
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:09,200
really passing the variable down to the binary. Yeah. I guess they pass it on maybe because

669
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:16,080
it all, I'm not 100% sure how system D works, but I assume it runs like in a sandbox, um, environment,

670
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:22,320
because you can have, yeah, I saw, I used the wrong word, the free, but you can have like

671
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:28,000
five instances of Cosmovisor working with all, each with their own, um, you know, environmental

672
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,400
variables in the system D. So what I mean is it doesn't share the environmental variables between

673
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:38,080
different system Ds. The frag of it. Yeah. Each one, each one's run demonized. So it's

674
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:42,400
running the background. Um, but you're, that's a good point because you're actually running

675
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:47,600
Cosmovisor start in that binary directory, but you are setting environment variables that I

676
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:52,720
assume would be only to that, to that process. Yeah. I think you, I think you'd be able to run

677
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,400
multiple chains on one note if that's what you're going with that. Yeah, I think you could. Um, and

678
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:01,600
and do you know, it's also worth saying that like the only config of our environment is very, very

679
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:09,440
common as a best practice for software development has been for the last five, I don't know, maybe

680
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:16,400
10 years, like 12 factor app is the, is the like definitive, especially if you do anything like, you

681
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:21,280
know, serverless or stuff like that where, or especially like stuff like AWS, like you're

682
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,440
basically running through a way hardware and you're passing in environment variables all the time. I

683
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:32,080
mean, like this is one of the things where like to use that to talk about aptus for a second, like

684
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:37,600
is very, very different between we've run some stuff on bare metal and we've run some stuff using

685
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:44,400
Amazon EKS, which is a very different experience. And it's because like obviously when you throw

686
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:49,760
stuff up on EKS, you're basically just like, I would like one very, very generic validator,

687
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:56,240
one very, very generic VFM please. And then I'm going to give you effectively via environment

688
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:04,160
what you should know as secrets. And obviously, the way you encrypt them, decrypt them using

689
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:09,040
Kubernetes and using Qtool and everything is, is out of the scope of this. But, but you're,

690
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:13,280
you're passing all of that configuration in, in such the only place that actually really lives is

691
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:19,280
on your laptop or the deployment box, or you can I think with that to actually configure it to be

692
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:24,800
in like an S3 bucket or a vault. But that's another way of doing it. There isn't really a concept of

693
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:29,600
remote signing, I don't think. So that's the other thing, but it's very, very different to

694
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:34,080
how like if you're configuring a box by bare metal, all of that environment is basically

695
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:38,400
just co-located somewhere on the box. It's not passed. I don't think aptus has the same thing

696
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:46,400
Cosmos does where config file values map to environment variable values to allow you to

697
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:50,880
draw a factor of everything. I don't think so. I don't even know. I think it's, I don't, that's a

698
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:58,080
yeah, I don't, I don't think so. We do. So on a different note, uni is dead long live uni.

699
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,640
What the fuck is happening there? The fray. What's up with the uni five?

700
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:11,040
Well, uni five outpashed after upgrade on a block that had

701
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:17,120
IBC TX's and wasm calls. So that's nice. That really helps narrow it down.

702
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:22,160
Was that was that the first block after the, I thought it failed at the upgrade. Oh, so it did

703
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:26,720
it didn't make a block after the upgrade. Yeah. I think it made two blocks. Second block,

704
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:34,960
there were price feeder calls, IBC calls, wasm store calls, maybe even a wasm execute call.

705
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:44,560
And yeah, fun times. It could be a number of things, but probably, probably fees is the one,

706
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:54,320
isn't it? Fees or fees? Well, fee global fee or call are the two likely smoking guns, but I think

707
01:00:54,320 --> 01:01:03,360
global fee is the newer one. So yeah, hopefully it won't result in our IP uni, but it may result

708
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:09,840
in our IP uni because I've done months of staking to get that shit even there.

709
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:17,360
You got too emotionally invested in a test net. So much hours in time.

710
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:21,040
It's been a weird one because it's been the first time that uni shot the bed where

711
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:28,240
it hasn't been 100% my responsibility to fix it. How does that feel? It feels magic.

712
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:37,520
I've just had other shit to do. But it's really like I can recommend, I see what other people

713
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:43,200
just swing into the chat occasionally and say things like, oh, if you try blah, blah, blah,

714
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:49,520
then fuck off again for a day. It's great. So that's really unhelpfully what I've been doing

715
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:56,400
while mainly Reese and a bit of friend of the show. And to be fair, friend of the show Jake,

716
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:01,760
friend of the show Reese have largely been, I think, looking at that. And Reese has been

717
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:07,040
sort of narrowing it down. Wait, hold on. We have one more call to make there. Chill

718
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:15,040
validation's been doing their part. Well, Chile has been doing a lot upstream. Yes. So Chile actually

719
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:22,480
has been doing a lot upstream in the SDK. And it's that which means that Chile was aware of

720
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:27,280
some similar issues on other chains, which has led to the problem of smoking gun for uni.

721
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:35,760
So I mean, yeah, I mean, Chile's great. As an aside, chill validation, if you want to shout out

722
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:44,000
a node operator that does demonstrably good upstream work on Cosmos SDK,

723
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:48,560
they delegate to chill validation. Yeah, I just want to take the opportunity to call them out

724
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:54,320
because they've been grace and stay one. Yeah, it's definitely definitely a word you call that.

725
01:02:54,320 --> 01:03:00,560
Definitely. Stake, Stake Chill. Yeah, for sure. And like honestly, like what just a great guy,

726
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:05,360
great guy and like just a fun to be around. It has a great sense of humor and like just,

727
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:12,400
big fan. We have asked Chill to come on before, but he's not like, I feel like I jump on a podcast

728
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:19,040
photo guy. Oh, fuck him then. Yeah, he's never mind. Does he even watch the podcast?

729
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:26,000
Never mind. Fuck all that. Yeah, I don't think he's keen to be like have his face on the

730
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:32,400
internet and talk shit about stuff. Some words, some words be concerned about that.

731
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:42,640
We are too stupid to be concerned about that. So here we go. Let's go. Yeah, no, Chill is sick.

732
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:48,800
That's why the non-podcasts hate. On a completely boring note, my accountant tells me that I'm going

733
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:54,560
to have my fucking tax sorted out at the end of this week. Congrats. So elated. Oh, mate. Nice.

734
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:58,880
Did you get your note? Yeah, I know you guys have already done your whole rigmarole and are already

735
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:05,360
like, I'm fine. The conclusion for us was hilarious. It was like, well, these are all just wrong.

736
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:16,320
It's too convoluted to even explain why they're wrong, but they're wrong. And my new account is

737
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:24,080
basically just like, the thing the government cares about is getting paid. And our suspicions,

738
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:30,240
these are wrong by such a margin. The problem is that the way everything's been filed is basically

739
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:40,640
arguably fraud. But the amount they're wrong by is probably going to be 1% wrong. So you're totally

740
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:47,920
fine because as a company, especially working in a super new area, if it is like, it's not a great

741
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:55,600
excuse to have to be like, the account is definitely fucked it up. But like, if you've actually paid

742
01:04:55,600 --> 01:05:00,960
the right amount, they'll be like, oh, well, whatever, boys and boys, they won't quite do that.

743
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:04,640
But they were just like, basically, the only problem you can have is if you try and sell a

744
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:09,920
company or if you try and take out a loan, because then it goes from being like, our books were

745
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:17,360
screwed, our accountants didn't have a great year, sorry, to being actual fraud. But we don't plan

746
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,760
to either of those things. So it was just like, okay, that's fine. They're like, you have remarkably

747
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,440
calm about this. I was like, I just care about paying the right amount of tax. I don't really care.

748
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:32,000
Like if we've, if we've always, it's like slightly it's in category 14b instead of 14c,

749
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,920
like I'm sure we can just change that. And they're like, yeah, we can just change that. I'm like,

750
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:41,680
well, okay, amazing. My sense of elation has not dissipated. Thank you very much. And they're like,

751
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:46,080
okay, you need to be a little bit worried. I'm like, but I pay you to be worried.

752
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:50,320
Anyway, have a great Friday. They're like, it's not Friday, it's Wednesday. I'm like, click.

753
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:58,320
It's game of nodes night. It's Friday now. So it took a couple of accountants to get someone who

754
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:04,160
agreed with the way that I wanted to do it. So that's not how it works. You don't just get to

755
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:10,480
re-roll until somebody goes, you get to pay less tax. And you're like, apparently that's not how it

756
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:17,120
works though. So the thing is that I interpret the tax code in Australia in one particular way,

757
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:24,800
right? And then there's like this thing here that if you, if you make a best effort to like pay your

758
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:29,520
tax, then, you know, if you get audited, they're not really going to fucking steamroll you. They're

759
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,960
going to be like, we don't agree with that. And you can go, well, this is why we've done it type

760
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:41,040
thing. But, you know, we were talking about it. And for starters, it is fucking impossible for me

761
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:47,600
to get the transactions, right? How in the fuck is the government going to get them? So there's

762
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:54,720
that problem. And we talked about it and running back at the envelope numbers, the way we're doing

763
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:59,920
it, you're roughly going to pay like a little bit more tax than what you would if you went through

764
01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:06,560
and like defined the whole like chain of custody of bloody tokens, right? And figured out all the

765
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:12,400
cost basis and all that type of stuff. So because it's like in a high transaction environment,

766
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:18,480
we, we estimate that we will get away with just doing it in the way that we're doing it.

767
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:27,120
Because it saves like so much money in, in administration costs that you can argue that

768
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:33,440
it's just not feasible to run the business with that type of admin. So, you know, I don't know,

769
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:38,320
we'll see how we go. I've had other accounts that were just scared of, well, you know, I've talked

770
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:46,480
to other accountants in this journey to find one that I synced with that, you know, some of them are

771
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:55,040
worried that they're going to get an audit, which, you know, may or may not. But the thing is,

772
01:07:55,040 --> 01:08:00,560
is like the, the tax codes are like still developing and there's room for interpretation

773
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:04,000
there. So I don't think even if we do get ordered, I don't think we get hung out to dry. I think

774
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:07,920
they'll just say, we don't agree with how you're doing it. Can you have another look type thing?

775
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:13,680
So here they're really, really detailed and specific. But the problem is that, like you say,

776
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:18,720
it's getting data, like it does like they're like, okay, here is exactly what you need to do if you

777
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:25,280
get an airdrop or something. Like, okay, great. Even I don't know how to get that data. I'm so sorry.

778
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:33,680
I'm really like, I'm trying my best. That's exactly it. Like if we can't get it, what fucking hope

779
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:39,920
in hell does like a third party have of getting it? Like we're the validators. Well, the issue,

780
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:45,360
the issue here in the US at least is they can determine what that value is. And it's up to you

781
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:51,200
to determine that that's incorrect. So they can say that you like, we don't know what those values

782
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:56,400
are, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or we think that you've, you've acquired X amount of assets.

783
01:08:56,400 --> 01:09:01,280
And so therefore, this is your tax amount. And so trying to figure out how they got to that number,

784
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:04,960
why that number is incorrect, showing that it's incorrect is on the burden of the taxpayer,

785
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:09,360
not on the federal government. So that's the issue here is I totally agree with you. Like,

786
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:14,320
I can't even get like, I'm we're hoping that I'm hoping that Todd shares his Juneau full node,

787
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:20,720
because that's the only option I have for pulling some transactions from last year in 2022. But if

788
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:28,080
I don't, and if the history of Juno is a little bit shady, at least, I mean, difficult to be able

789
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:32,720
to get a full picture out at least for our stuff. Then I got to, then I have to pull what I can and

790
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:36,640
like make some assumptions. And if those assumptions get questioned, then I got to fucking figure out

791
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,320
how to do that deal with that. And I still want, and what I what you don't want is you don't want,

792
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:45,040
I want to be, it would be accurate enough to be able to move past and know that I feel comfortable

793
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:50,320
that that is accurate. At the same point, you like you want to be shady enough where you end up being

794
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:54,400
an audit, which is that you're then you're proving every single thing that comes out of that. So

795
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:58,560
I don't know if you have the same thing in Australia. No, I don't think so. I think they just

796
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:03,120
like go through your books and tell you that you've done it wrong and ask you to do it again,

797
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:11,360
in a better way or whatever. But as far as I'm concerned, the way that we're doing it though,

798
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:19,440
we will pay more tax earlier on because we are paying tax on our holdings, as well as our

799
01:10:19,440 --> 01:10:26,240
gains or our income from sales. So I think you know, whatever, whatever we're, that no, that's

800
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:31,520
what I wanted to do. And then some, then they can, another bloke came and said, no, you can't do it

801
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:35,440
that way. And then I talked to other people who gave me the reference, someone gave me the reference

802
01:10:35,440 --> 01:10:42,480
in the chat the other day of like, it's fucking, it was the Tom Cruise bloody thing.

803
01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:50,960
That was me. I'll put a link in the show notes. There's a video of Matt Damon talking about Tom

804
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:58,640
Cruise and some safety thing or like some crazy fucking born, not born, whatever crazy movie

805
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:03,360
he was in with doing stunts and all that type of shit. And he wanted to do some crazy mission

806
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:06,640
impossible. You want to do some crazy stunt and the safety guy said, you can't fucking do this.

807
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:10,960
You can't fucking do it. And he goes, so, so I talked to the safety guy, safety guy says,

808
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:16,240
you can't do this. He goes, uh-huh. Uh-huh. So I get another safety guy. Exactly. Sorry,

809
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:19,360
you just keep, he's going from accountant to accountant to get the answer you want. So I got

810
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:23,040
another account who says this is totally the right way of doing it. That's a secret.

811
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:28,320
Yeah. I mean, that was totally the thing. It was so funny when you sent that through.

812
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:34,480
So the only reason I'm comfortable doing it this way is because during COVID Australia

813
01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:38,720
introduced a new rule for businesses, small businesses. You can actually claw back

814
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:45,600
tax from previous years. So there is the risk that if it's a really high market and we're

815
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:50,240
high holding a lot of tokens that we'll end up paying a lot of tax in that FY because of our

816
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:56,240
holdings. But then at the end, the next year, when all those tokens reduce in value, you'll have

817
01:11:56,240 --> 01:12:00,560
like a big loss from those tokens if they reduce in value. So then you can actually

818
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:07,680
claw back tax from the previous year that you've paid on those tokens because they were high.

819
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:11,120
If that makes sense, if they, if you couldn't do that, you would have to carry that like,

820
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:15,360
you know, you'd be carrying the losses on your books until you sold them out, but you'd never

821
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:19,600
be able to get tax back from previous years. So you've had a really good year and paid like,

822
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:24,880
you know, just weird numbers, like a hundred grand in tax. And then the next year you lost 50

823
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:29,680
grand, but you're never getting that fucking tax back. So. But the 50 you can carry for, right?

824
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:35,600
Is that your situation? Yeah. Yeah, because it's, it's, because crypto is just like used cars.

825
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:42,080
We're a company that happens to mint a thousand used cars a day. They're just only worth a dollar

826
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:46,800
right now. But we've got, we've got a lot of used cars, you said that, but we've got so many used

827
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:50,160
cars we don't want to do with them. But the problem is, right, these used cars, right,

828
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:55,040
will pay tax on them at $10, right? And then, but then things like, you know,

829
01:12:55,680 --> 01:13:00,320
at the moment that you use cars, they're sat, they're illiquid, right? It's not important why

830
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:05,280
these used cars are illiquid at the moment, but they're illiquid. So we've, we've paid a tax on

831
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:08,480
them, but we can't actually do anything with them at the moment. But if we decide to actually

832
01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:12,960
actively start going now, we're going to sell these used cars, we can get some hot shots in here to

833
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:18,240
sell those used cars for a dollar, which isn't suspect at all for a used car. Anyway, whatever,

834
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:22,320
we're going to sell all of our used cars. We've already declared the tax value of them at the

835
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:28,160
time of receipt, right? We sell all of them. We, actually, it's not even like used cars because

836
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:32,000
they're an asset. They're not even, they're like a business asset. They're not even like we have

837
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:36,000
stock because if they use cars, they'd be stock, but actually they're, they're more like the business

838
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:41,680
has bought 10,000 used cars for our many middle managers. We have 10,000 middle managers who need

839
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:46,880
a used car. We've got 10,000 used cars. And then the value of those used cars has got down a lot.

840
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:50,400
So we're going to sell all those used cars because we don't have any staff either because we fired

841
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:57,200
one of them. So that's a capital gains loss on all those used cars we bought. And it's not an

842
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:01,520
income loss and we can't carry it forward. Oh, no, we do carry it forward on our books, to be fair.

843
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:05,760
But as you might have spotted, if we make 10,000... You can't carry it back.

844
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:14,320
Well, this is it. If we make 10,000 pounds capital loss, fantastic. We need to make some money

845
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:20,640
to take advantage of that. And you see, it's the making money part that's hard. Like, if I knew

846
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:26,720
how to do that, and I wouldn't be, if I knew how to make money, then I wouldn't be in a position of

847
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:34,080
writing off such a big loss. The funny thing is though, in your next year as well, the phrase,

848
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:41,520
you can make an income and no capital gains and you can't even use that loss. You have to recognize

849
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:46,880
everything's income. And because any staking rewards we make in other ecosystems or anything,

850
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:52,080
it's just straight up company income again. So we're just incurring more regular tax.

851
01:14:53,360 --> 01:15:02,800
So what we would need to do basically is unsteak a load of Juno or a token and wait for it to go up

852
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:08,160
in value. Yeah, no, so wait, what we need to do? Okay, let me wear this out. You need to

853
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:18,000
unsteak a load of Juno and then sell it our loss incurring... Let's say we sold everything we have,

854
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:23,920
we incur a massive loss and we look like total schmucks. Then we need to get in on the next

855
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:30,480
Solana like super early doors and just buy or get it somehow, whatever, and then just hold it

856
01:15:30,480 --> 01:15:37,840
really riskily and just YOLO 100% because we've already incurred the income tax as well if we

857
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:41,440
do this. So we already know we owe the income tax and then we need to try and ride it to the top

858
01:15:41,440 --> 01:15:47,120
and then sell it, which incurs then capital gains, but then we don't pay the capital gains because

859
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:53,200
we've already lost the money and then we go hey and then it hopefully evens out and we look like

860
01:15:53,200 --> 01:16:01,440
legends. We're like a film where there's traders and they do a great trade. Trading places.

861
01:16:01,440 --> 01:16:07,280
Trading places. We're like Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroyd in trading places.

862
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:14,800
A frozen orange juice. Exactly. We're in the brown house, brown stone.

863
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:19,360
It's brown stone. We're in the brown stone rather than getting rugged by the gorilla.

864
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:28,240
That's right. Rugged by the gorilla. So Rama says, so you're saying I should invest as a business

865
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:33,680
and not as an individual so I can claim losses. Can't do that as an individual in Australia with

866
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:37,440
crypto. You can't claim losses as an individual, is that right? Now I was going to say that's not

867
01:16:37,440 --> 01:16:44,800
entirely true. So yeah, I mean, in terms of trading as a business, you can actually... Welcome to Game

868
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:52,160
of Nodes, a weekly podcast on tax in the cosmos. Yeah, right. Oh, shit. I'll just go through it.

869
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:59,200
Especially during tax season. There's a couple of different things. So as an individual, you can

870
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:05,360
do high volumes of trades and actually call yourself a trader and then you can be taxed as a

871
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:11,440
trader on a stock basis. So you can actually do the same things that you can do that I'm doing

872
01:17:11,440 --> 01:17:15,760
in a business. It's just a lot harder to do it as an individual and actually say, like if you're

873
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:21,200
day trading, you can use crypto as stock and that's essentially what we're doing as a business.

874
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:25,680
That's why we have to do a stock take at the end of the year and then pay tax on the amount of

875
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:32,960
paused. In terms of like actually... So in terms of what you say, I can claim losses, you can't

876
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:38,640
claim losses even as a business. It's just that when you're a business, you do a profit and loss

877
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:44,320
statement at the end of the year rather than like capital gains and income. So income is obviously

878
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:53,200
part of your profit and your capital losses become part of your losses and then that balances out

879
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:59,040
to whether or not you made a profit and loss. A little bit different as an individual in that you

880
01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:04,720
have to pay income tax on your income no matter what happens with capital gains and losses. But

881
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:11,440
if you are a high volume trader, you can say that that's your regular job and those small capital

882
01:18:11,440 --> 01:18:19,120
gains that you make is income rather than capital gains losses. So income and losses,

883
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:25,440
like you can say that your gains and losses is positive and negative things against your income.

884
01:18:25,440 --> 01:18:29,920
So it's a little bit different when you're trying to day trade or when you're high volume

885
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:35,920
high volume individual trading, if that makes sense at all. GamerNodes is not a tax advice service

886
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:40,640
and do not take this advice seriously. Also remember that Noel talked to 75 accountants

887
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:45,200
with Australia to get the answers that he wanted to be able to hear that aligned to his viewpoint

888
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:50,800
on Australian taxes of crypto. Yeah, I only listen to the things I want to hear. So you said

889
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:57,040
I don't have to pay. I don't know. I feel like the sign of a good accountant might be the accountants

890
01:18:57,040 --> 01:19:01,520
that seem to know what they're talking about. And then when you go, well, but never hang on.

891
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:06,000
But I thought and they go, no, that's wrong and you're wrong. And here's why you're wrong.

892
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:11,440
And you need to do this. You're like, well, I am paying more, but I am reassured that these guys

893
01:19:11,440 --> 01:19:16,400
might actually know what they're talking about. That's kind of how I feel about us, which maybe

894
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:21,440
falls to confidence. Yeah, that's basically what my accountant did. I was telling him what my plan

895
01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:28,880
was and he was like, I can see why you think that's the plan, but I pity you. Okay, well,

896
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:35,760
how much do I owe you? Yeah. So I like when you just talk to your accountants and you

897
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:39,520
bullshit to each other and muse about things until something sounds right. And then you're like,

898
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:45,600
yeah, let's do that. Well, you know, be not you're not horseradid with your account. This is

899
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:50,080
somebody you pay, you're just like you're paying an expert. Like, it's not like you're like,

900
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:57,200
oh, well, come on, come on, come on. Give us a little bit. I ain't no expert in fucking tax.

901
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:03,040
Yeah, crypto tax. Crypto. It's all interpretation. It is all interpretation.

902
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:10,480
Yeah, I guess you realize that like big companies that have like 500 employees or more,

903
01:20:10,480 --> 01:20:16,480
they must have no fucking clue. Like as in even working out what they've made in a year,

904
01:20:16,480 --> 01:20:22,160
like looking at their stock, like know how many. Okay, let's say, sorry, I don't know why we're

905
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:27,120
doing this. We're a used car dealership. Even knowing the value of all the used cars on your lot,

906
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:31,840
like nobody knows that. Like, so you kind of go like everybody's taxes are a best guess,

907
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:37,120
like we're just in this kind of like where everybody's management reporting is just a

908
01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:41,440
best guess. And we're just like all this collective delusion that we're being 100%

909
01:20:41,440 --> 01:20:45,360
bang on. So you're just like at the end of the day, there's got to be a point where you come to

910
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:50,320
scale. We try our best. We're not trying to swindle the tax man, which will pay off our taxes,

911
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:57,520
probably fine. It's my hopeful when I put it up in front of small claims court or whatever.

912
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:00,720
Come on, come on, lads, we're just trying our best here. They're like,

913
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:05,440
you're both completely wrong. That's your defense.

914
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:10,240
But completely wrong. There's not even a cursory effort to correct these glaring mistakes. And

915
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:15,040
you're accountant to just been in the dock said that you said, oh, it's okay, we'll fix them

916
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:18,400
during the year. What kind of management strategy is that you're like,

917
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:26,880
but you can say the accountant told me boys will be boys. I've heard that boys will be boys.

918
01:21:27,440 --> 01:21:35,360
Are you telling me? So here's here's an idea I've had to run this one by the boffins yet.

919
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:41,200
But next year, whoa, hold on, we guys pass for a second by the by the what the boffins.

920
01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:46,720
What is the what what? So you know, we have a lot of smart people. You know what puffins are?

921
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:54,080
They're a small bird. So yeah, right. A boffin is just a much larger puffin from Bathin Island.

922
01:21:54,800 --> 01:22:00,000
I think you just make a shit up now. Fuck with us. It's like an English-Australian

923
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:05,200
colloquialism, I guess. Anyway, yeah, it means like point dexters or whatever.

924
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:10,480
Okay, so it's like a smart okay. God, I'd never heard the term before. So like,

925
01:22:10,480 --> 01:22:12,560
what are you talking about? Is that your wife? I don't know.

926
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:25,520
I have to run it by the boffin family. So anyway, because one problem that I can see right is that

927
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:32,640
if I'm paying tax on the saleable value of my holdings, then I should actually be paying tax

928
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:39,440
on the realizable saleable value of my holdings. So if it's got thin liquidity, I should be able to

929
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:44,960
model the saleable value from the thin liquidity and say, well, I can only realize this for,

930
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:51,360
this is the current price at market. Yes. But if I sold my amount that I have to be able to pay the

931
01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:57,040
tax on it, then I would only have say it was 50 grand, then I'd only have 20 grand. So I'm only

932
01:22:57,040 --> 01:23:05,040
paying tax on 20 grand. That's a theory I have. I feel like other people would not agree.

933
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:11,600
Keep finding that right. But I also just think like, is it dodgeball or just like,

934
01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:19,200
let's see how that goes for him. Yeah, it's like, I have this collectible asset and I won

935
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:27,360
this out for 100,000. I can probably get 12 bucks for it. So yeah, people have cold years worth 100,000,

936
01:23:27,360 --> 01:23:33,920
but no one has offered me 100,000. So bold strategy, Cotton. That's the one. Yeah.

937
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:39,440
So anyway, I mean, it makes sense to me. I mean, the other thing is I could just sell them and then

938
01:23:39,440 --> 01:23:44,000
pay them the tax on the lower value that I could get for it. So why not just, you know, take out

939
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:49,840
the middle man and pay less tax? It's all about like tax minimization, right? I think if you can

940
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:54,560
present a good argument for a tax minimization, then they might still tell you just to get fucked.

941
01:23:54,560 --> 01:24:02,320
I mean, for us, it was more about like, obviously, for political reasons, like we all sold,

942
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:06,320
obviously, during the bull run and stuff, because it would be kind of done not to, but like,

943
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:13,760
it was very easy to not sell everything and still run up a really, really large tax bill.

944
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:20,240
And depending on how much like liquid cash you have on hand, like the tax bill could easily

945
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:25,920
exceed the amount of dollars you have in the bank to pay it, depending on what was staked.

946
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:30,400
And also because the thing is the money is not there anymore, it has disappeared.

947
01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:38,480
And so I think from our point of view, it's less about what we're paying in tax and more about

948
01:24:38,480 --> 01:24:44,480
liquid cash. And as soon as we were like, well, we're not going to go bankrupt, then we were

949
01:24:44,480 --> 01:24:50,080
reassured. But it was still like, I don't know, it's been a real learning experience, this entire

950
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:54,640
thing. It's that thing of like, how do you think it could or should be tax or whatever,

951
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:58,640
like learning how it actually is and how that shakes out for you as a business. It's like a

952
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:04,240
job. It totally, we thought we were being smart and we still weren't being smart. That's the thing

953
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:08,560
that last year has taught me. Like I thought we were being really conservative and quite smart

954
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:12,400
and it turned out we were being dumb, dumb to the point of nearly shafting our business.

955
01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:29,040
It's crazy. And you don't see it till it's still there in black and white.