0:00
did I and it's probably yeah hi welcome
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[Music]
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hello everybody and welcome to game of nodes weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams and luckily
0:25
you're going to be spared the sound of spiders [ __ ] on Mel's balcony um thanks to
0:31
some last minute adjustment of the audio at his end we are without
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[Music] um nearly docks then we are without usurper Rhino tonight uh he's been called away
0:44
to important issues servers on fire off the shoulder Orion I'm sure and so
0:52
it's just gonna be the three I was supposed to say the three of us flying solo which is one of the more idiotic
0:57
things I will have said today um I I feel like usurp has probably just been told by his wife that he has to go
1:04
to dinner or something like that maybe it's date night maybe that should have been the real name of the episode
1:11
I mean I'll give a pass for that I mean code hands has rubbed this
1:16
several times for date night but but no but we are well actually I
1:21
maybe I shouldn't be living in in hope I believe I believe in the fact we are going to have code hands on in the next
1:27
month uh and not get rugged for date night again but you know maybe that's what will happen
1:35
um so yeah oh no it's gone okay very good that doesn't make any sense if you're
1:40
listening later on a podcast player um for some reason he's just turned off his his camera which was funny
1:47
um so this week uh what's been happening other than
1:54
the bear continues I suppose there was some uh
2:00
uh the the there was some I mean we were talking about this before the show started weren't we shortly about how
2:07
um difficult it seems to be for Builders to get funded in the space either either by
2:13
foundations or by community pools and I think there's uh well on Juno there's obviously a
2:19
couple of props up excuse me at the moment
2:24
um related to getting commute oh sorry no they're not actually up live yeah they're just on
2:30
Commonwealth um on getting funding and
2:35
okay that was weird um and there's also the same thing's been happening on evmos right there have
2:42
been a load of um Community props although those have been more spammy
2:48
uh that's really disturbing [Laughter] what's going on my my main camera just
2:55
shut it this is my uh my phone camera uh it's really weird now on on the on
3:01
the Mac it just like connects to your phone camera as an option hang on I'll go away and like try and figure this out are those
3:07
fake bricks in the corner yeah
3:13
that's actually I'm really sorry to anybody listening
3:19
later are there pictures that's actually cool oh okay fair enough I thought they were
3:24
fake bricks got some Steamboat Willie over there
3:31
Australia okay right so it's actually like
3:37
historical photos and [ __ ] or something it's actually historical [ __ ] okay I don't know what do I do do I just hold
3:43
this here or just pop it up with something
3:50
[ __ ] this is where we need that technical difficulty aside that usurper made uh in
3:58
Photoshop okay I'm just I'm just not sure I can hold this for an hour and a half so yeah like I said prop out with a book and
4:05
then I remember there's no books in Australia so that's uh that's not gonna work I ordered some books to get them into
4:11
Australia I mean together into the country hey that's ironic isn't it ordering
4:17
books away from America anyway um so this is unbelievably distracting I'm
4:24
looking to MacGyver some [ __ ] together here I just yeah okay do you wanna maybe maybe like turn your camera off for a
4:31
second engage with the conversation or just kind of lean it up you've got a laptop right why not just
4:38
lean it up against the laptop I can't feel like we're in an action shot in like Top Gun or something we're
4:44
just like Zooms in real hard and then some big old like action scene happens it's very like Requiem for a Dream or
4:51
something it's supposed to be coming out of there man it's I'm confused it's like that
4:58
thing you know in some films when people are talking and it's all like a close cut and then it suddenly expands to the
5:04
edge of the uh like the full like iMac size and you're like all right action scene that's about to happen that's kind
5:12
of what it feels like Zoom yeah exactly
5:18
I'm gonna have a hunt around for some duct tape I reckon I can MacGyver this together at the top of my monitor here
5:25
it seems like I'm just gonna Stick it to literally my other camera okay
5:30
um do you wanna it actually seems much nicer picture too
5:36
I might actually start leaving this other shitbox camera at home I'm sure there's like some sort of adaptive stand
5:41
you can get to like hang this thing off give me a minute the things that we talk about in Game of
5:47
nodes more than the cosmos include our microphone setups our desk setups and
5:53
apparently our technical difficulties um so yeah the the I think the thing the
5:58
the thing that I've noticed we don't validate evermos but I've seen a lot of what look like spam props over there right and a lot of that is
6:05
is it is it kind of just generic [ __ ] bear Market trolling because it's like because it's
6:12
assumed that there'll be fewer voters or is it actually projects looking for cash
6:17
like viable projects uh okay so I don't know that I'm really qualified to answer
6:23
this but from my understanding it's more of they're trying to prove a point I don't think they're actually going for funding
6:29
um a lot of them are being sent out by what is it the atmos for volunteers validator which is already one of the
6:35
top validators and makes him the most um and I think what they're trying to do it seems like they're trying to make a
6:41
point about what government should governance should be about and who gets funding and
6:46
the message isn't coming across that's my read on it so like if you read through the first proposal that got
6:52
everyone got all fired up about didn't know veto the ending is kind of where you get the final statement that you it changes the
6:58
idea of the graphic going for funding and they were saying something like we want to stay a volunteer project but
7:03
there's something going on in the background where like funding is becoming like a weird political game and
7:09
so we just want to end the conversation now and make sure that we're still a volunteer team something really weird like that is going on I think but my
7:15
read could totally be wrong here okay so that sounds like more of an internal thing for like them than it
7:23
does for for anything else potentially that was my take yeah but then the follow-up props have been a
7:30
similar thing where well now let's decide if that's the case then what else are we gonna do like trying to Define
7:36
um yes no and no with veto I'm okay with that I don't like it um but it seems like
7:43
it used to be that I really wanted to Define yes no no if you don't abstain the problem is
7:48
it has such different context for each prop right so like with prop 16 abstain
7:56
came from like what level of evidence do we have to actually make a decision right versus an abstain on a funding
8:02
prop could just be I didn't have time to look into it and I'm going to defer to my delegators in
8:09
order to vote for it so it's just two different kind of takes and so trying to Define it through governance
8:16
at the pass for me yeah I think it's it's quite highly contextual isn't it
8:21
what you see in other chains I think more commonly is that people write on
8:26
each prop what they what the proposer suggests the meaning of those is and
8:32
like as a voter you're you're always entitled to go all of those definitions suck no with veto right that's your
8:39
prerogative so yeah that is a bit strange to try and like Define it ahead of time I think
8:47
um so the and then okay that makes more sense we were just
8:53
talking about evermos for volunteers now oh man what a um Saga that's been in the
9:00
last uh week or so we've kind of been watching people outside be prepared for
9:05
this camera situation to go horribly wrong um I was unable to find any kind of duct tape it is precariously like lent up
9:14
against my other camera that I bent down and ready to fall at literally any
9:19
minute that said oh my God the the whole like Saga of props on the last week week
9:26
and a half on F Moss has just been out of control I just
9:34
it's baffling um but the the definitions attached to the yes no
9:42
no with veto is just nonsense I I don't know why they keep doing that
9:48
um and yeah it's like they're trying to load the answers to mean things that they
9:55
don't mean it's really annoying um so I guess from King notes perspective we've just basically put a
10:01
memo in there that we don't recognize it as a valid proposition and it's just Spam and no with veto so
10:10
don't know I don't know that it deserves a note video but in my mind that definition kind of falls into our
10:17
I don't know if we ever actually a discussion on on camera before but our discussions around chains having their
10:22
own constitutions I don't know if that's really something that can totally be represented on chain in such
10:29
a way that you know that that makes sense like
10:35
in secret we we did a uh something of a constitution a while back but we agreed like four things right and
10:43
really it should be like broken down as granular as possible as atomically as possible where do we agree on article one yeah okay
10:50
moving on um but still that's not really an on-chain thing and I don't think that
10:56
a definition of what each voting measure represents should also be
11:02
on chain I don't know I'm kind of torn it feels like it feels like it should be an Ever evolving conversation
11:09
I think that um propositions should be
11:15
uh written such that they are you agree or you don't agree
11:21
with what they've proposed I don't think there should be any like other attachments at all I think it
11:28
should be black and white that you have you either agree to what they've requested or what they're saying or you
11:34
don't agree and then you know if it's nonsense or a Spam it's just a no with veto
11:40
abstain needs to go for sure
11:46
um I don't know I kind of disagree on that one I think the current system is is kind of
11:52
broken enough that you need abstain as a get out cause and it's only but it
11:58
but with that said it's only tenable because you're you're delegators can override your vote
12:04
if delegators couldn't override your vote then you would need to remove abstain yeah 100. well because then you
12:13
would be pushed into yes or no like it would be that simple can't support this won't support this fine it by default
12:20
has to be a no my hands are tied you know can we can we agree that um what happens when you abstain could possibly
12:28
change like when you abstain and there is more yeses
12:34
than knows right you still achieve Quorum and then push the the yes over
12:40
the line even if there's not that much of it if there's like a few yeses and a
12:46
shitload of abstains you'll still like push the vote over say if no one votes
12:52
no right and three people vote Yes and then the entire rest of the the set
12:58
votes abstain then it'll pass with like a couple of votes yes
13:04
sure but that's like uh it's very rare that the abstains are going to push a
13:09
vote over the Quorum threshold will abstains count as a vote so yeah if
13:18
you have like no I mean I know that I know they do but like um it's a it's a theoretical position but I don't think
13:27
uh propositions a lot of you get a lot of
13:32
abstains right and then you've got like a minority a big minority is actually
13:38
doing the voting and the the you know the
13:43
a lot of the times in those highly controversial things you've got like you know a a vocal minority that is just
13:51
pushing an agenda to get the smaller amount of votes they need to
13:56
get over the line to make it pass like if you're going to abstain it just shouldn't count as a vote you should just register that it's an
14:03
Epstein it shouldn't count towards quorum right yeah I mean I could agree with that I
14:09
could agree that abstain shouldn't count towards Quorum but I do think abstain is
14:15
necessary as an option to in the current system anyway as an option to record a
14:21
vote as a validator that either you can't or won't make this call
14:33
right but the point is a lot of a lot of people who vote via scriptures vote Yes and everything so if you see abstinence
14:42
there are there are some people there are lots yeah I script 100
14:49
there are plenty of validators who just vote straight yes um that's it today [ __ ] you Elon
14:58
that said I reckon there probably are a couple of validators that just blank get very abstain and then come back and edit
15:05
their vote if they have the time so there's maybe six or one half a dozen
15:10
of the other but like shorts he said either just before the show or at the
15:15
start a funding prop is like a quite good example of where a validator might say
15:21
for whatever reason I actually don't think that I can make this call or it's not like like it's almost a conflict of
15:28
interest if you yourself get get or have had funding or even a foundation delegation
15:35
it is it Russia but it is right does it you can say somebody else shouldn't have it
15:40
because that is your opinion as an elected representative just because you're a paid Member of Parliament
15:45
doesn't mean you can't say we won't give a contract to this company that's actually fine isn't it that's literally
15:51
your job in fact well uh so one of the few times that we consistently wrote
15:57
Epstein is actually for um on secret Network because James is part of the support team
16:03
um he also is part of your five we always felt abstained because then we consider it a conflict of interest right
16:09
because then and in a sense the secret work kind of subsidizes like payments
16:14
from lavender five right so to me it just seems like it makes sense to thought of staying and then I typically
16:20
put in the memo saying hey I don't I vote abstain just because it's conflict of interest
16:26
you gonna make it over there
16:32
I'm crying
16:41
someone calling Amber right I think there's a compelling case to be made that
16:47
you could probably get rid of Quorum and then um also get rid of Voters Paladin for their
16:54
delegators right I don't I understand from like if you think if you try and
17:00
create a mimic of a you know a republic voting system that vote validators
17:05
should be voting for The delegators but I don't think it necessarily needs to be that I don't see why
17:11
validator should be voted for the delegators unless you're trying to to
17:16
fulfill the Quorum story where I approximately go through if a sufficient
17:23
percentage of the delegators actually agree with it and I think that in a world where
17:30
validation and uh such a competition is here I don't
17:36
think it really fulfills anything because so many validators vote for the sake of being able to say they voted as opposed to what they actually think the
17:42
prop is for if that makes sense yeah but then hey wait so you're saying
17:49
you would do away with quorum I don't know necessarily doing away with Quorum but I think that the current
17:58
um the current story of delegated proof of mistake within the cosmos is flawed and
18:04
I think that there's a strong argument to be made that validators shouldn't control the vote of their delegators
18:09
but in doing so Quorum would basically never be reached so what would you do with Quorum is Quorum necessary I don't
18:17
know it's a good question um I mean
18:23
that there's a whole I just saw in the spreadsheet somebody
18:31
just wrote the phrase says to get [ __ ] because upgrades
18:37
that wasn't exactly what I was about to say it was a little bit close to what I was
18:42
about to say which is that so I'm taking notes in the spreadsheet and uh and I
18:49
just already knew you what you were gonna say we've been doing this podcast too long but no but it is true that while while
18:55
upgrades are a part of consensus individual stakers have like actually a
19:02
responsibility and at the moment their default that responsibility has devoted to some extent to validate us right
19:07
so I actually don't necessarily disagree with you shortly but the question is in that case like how do you align
19:13
incentives so that those um delegators will vote because
19:21
we probably right now let's say in a in a bear Market have a lot of stakers who
19:27
are effectively AFK they've gone away and they'll come back at some point so
19:32
unless you tie they should do something quite radical like
19:37
expiring steak that's tied to governance or something like that which would be spicy and also have its own
19:45
problems right because if you say to people oh well you only get staking rewards if you're participating in governance fine okay what's the
19:51
corollary of that would be that um the amount of liquid tokens would
19:58
arbitrarily increase like via these Cycles to do with governance voting and
20:03
and the whole security aspect of dpos like you know wouldn't work there's there's a lot of
20:09
there's a lot of sense in which the more you'd scratch on the surface of what we currently got it's the simplest
20:14
combination of all the Legos to make something functional that you
20:20
could put into production um but it's like how can we how can we
20:26
align those incentives better particularly the ones where you're like trying to get I think the thing I think we're both talking about the same thing
20:32
which is like can you get a larger number of individual entities to vote
20:39
instead of the validators right I think that's what both of us are trying to arrive at an idea for how you would do
20:47
but then if all those people like go away in a bear market then you maybe you just can't make quorum to do an upgrade
20:53
right um Yeah It's Tricky I mean and there's also
20:58
a question like should upgrades even I mean I guess because you're changing the software right that's the problem with
21:04
proof of stake yeah I mean all that that's kind of it as well right maybe upgrades should be their own thing but
21:11
it probably does make sense that validators vote on any sort of software upgrade because they're the ones that are responsible for it for lack of a
21:17
better term so it makes sense for them to vote specifically for that but maybe if it is community funding
21:24
thing or maybe if it is just a a signaling prop maybe validator vote should account for nothing
21:31
yeah the um sorry I just want to interrupt this this interesting discussion for a second in the chat
21:36
later said that null looks like he's doing the podcast while on break from his shift at the local nature sanctuary
21:43
there you go burn sick burn um but like a
21:49
I mean but you know you have been having this kind of long-running shower thought if you like about slashing and about
21:56
whether or not it achieves anything particularly hard slashing um but also even to some extent soft
22:03
slashing right because the incentives to keep your validator up are strong enough anyway because you're losing
22:09
money because the majority of validators are still making like mint fees is the most important component of Revenue
22:15
if it wasn't then yes you would maybe need soft slashing but like
22:21
um you know like so to use the other network that I know both me and you are
22:27
on short C or you know we're we're sort of participating on um on something like Aptos there are a
22:34
whole bunch of upgrades which have nothing they're not in consensus they just roll out the upgrade and when
22:44
voting power gets to a point the nodes that didn't upgrade stop moving the ones that did upgrade keep
22:50
moving but it's not that you don't app hash right you don't have
22:57
a lot of the you don't have a lot of the deadlock type constraints that you do in Cosmos where
23:02
the intention is to sort of catch and punish potentially Byzantine Behavior
23:10
it's almost like this I don't know if this is by Design but it feels like the philosophy there is a bit different it's
23:15
like it's probably not deliberate and in any case the system is designed to stop this
23:21
anyway which it has done so download's just not making money and that's up to them and maybe that's like more the
23:28
Avenue we need to be thinking about which is you know um incentives right is Carrot not stick
23:37
um and maybe that applies to the government's conversation as well um and actually you know in the chat Ben
23:43
Davis said a little while ago can you have conflict of interest in dpos isn't the point of DPS about alignment of
23:50
Interest so I think this must have been what we were talking about you were talking about secret but the point at
23:55
the end there about alignment of Interest I think is like what we're talking about here as well isn't it
24:01
yeah and I think that going back to your stream about Aptos I think that one of the core issues there is that Aptos
24:09
um isn't intended to fulfill like an IPC
24:14
image right it's not intended to be forked for a dozen other networks to launch off of and so I think they
24:21
recognized early on that they're probably going to control the stake for the first
24:27
let's say five years and if they're controlling the stake they pretty well know that no one's going to try and take
24:33
over because they control it are they um custodian custodian there's a word
24:40
there I'm looking for that I'm not finding um they're concerns well yeah it's centralized right now
24:46
yeah and so they don't need to worry about um a nefarious Behavior coming because they know what they are whereas for
24:53
Cosmos um we could launch a network right now that is worth you know a thousandth of a
24:59
penny with a with a thousand tokens and then someone can buy and you know take it off or whatever and so
25:05
in order to account for a new network coming up if it's not immediately be bought out I think it makes sense for it
25:10
to you know to have more stringent scary
25:15
punishing mechanics built in immediately near
25:21
similar to Aptos and that there there isn't slashing right now and there hasn't been and they aren't intending to really do slashing yet
25:28
because I I think it's just an expectation of like
25:33
development alignment for near their priority is sharding right they want to be able to
25:39
um basically break out further and further further shards for validator sets
25:44
um and so it'll always be like naturally based on how they're designing it
25:50
naturally balanced and so something that can't take over the set to try and do 51
25:56
attack because it'll just balance itself back out with how they're designing it
26:03
right so I guess it's maybe I mean maybe it's not exactly uh
26:11
it's not fundamental to the design of Cosmos but it does fall out of the design of the internet blockchains that
26:17
you're not only right so I think it comes down to my brain just caught up
26:23
with what you said that whatever you know about the chain you
26:28
are currently on you obviously don't know about every chain that's adjacent to you via IBC right that that I think
26:35
is like in a nutshell the essence of the problem of why the environment is always significantly lower trust yeah yeah
26:44
so what does that mean for governance well at least those people can't vote on your chain until Mass security comes
26:51
along in which case they can um so then you'll have people AFK on multiple chains at the same time
26:56
resulting in a lack of Quorum being achieved and then Cosmo station will truly have
27:02
the ultimate power yeah so there's other aspects too like
27:09
um conflict of interest uh or perceived conflict of interest so the other day I
27:15
got um a Julie uh probably deserving ear
27:20
bashing for from some people at um kujira uh because of how I voted on a
27:26
proposal on stargaze um that they saw as a conflict of interest between the chains
27:33
um which was not entirely correct it was more that my personal uh
27:42
feelings towards uh you know mechanics of
27:47
liquidity pools and fragmenting liquidity was the reason that I voted how I voted uh and other people
27:54
perceived the vote to be against the the chain that was the target of the
28:01
spend proposal so multi-chain validators have an inherent
28:08
conflict of interest depending on the type of proposal and what it is proposing between two separate chains
28:15
so there's that
28:20
yeah I mean I think that's the other thing isn't it is that all of whether it's validation or whether it's helping
28:27
out with some code whether it's you know whatever having met people there's the
28:34
active group of people in Cosmos is actually quite small and the further you
28:41
go back to the first group of chains the smaller it sort of gets
28:47
so there is like a I mean this is nepotism right uh in a
28:55
nutshell this is why you have political and social Elites so there is an element in which perhaps
29:02
validators in that sense do need to be held to account for the exact reasoning behind their votes
29:08
in that way like although it's a pain in the ass actually maybe that is completely that is actually things
29:14
functioning correctly which is the whole you know taking it back to the
29:19
um yeah defining yes no no evito Etc is that like the whole point is that I
29:25
think all of our yeah can't do that is basically because it's social isn't it the consensus
29:30
around what those things mean and actually it's it's kind of the same problem with Governor one problem Feature Feature not a bug maybe with
29:37
governance is that it actually takes place outside of where the vote is recorded and it always will do
29:45
um so I mean so what
29:52
um what I think it was Poker Tour it might even be new Sheltie who um was
29:57
explaining like how they vote as a multi-chain validator because you guys are on a shitload of chains and so is poker too and um there's one of his or
30:05
someone in the in the group chat was saying that they vote aligned to the
30:12
chain that the proposal is on in the best interest of that chain is how they
30:17
like get around that so whether or not you're on two chains or not if the proposal's on stargaze they vote in the best
30:24
interest of stargaze if it's on The Hub then they vote in the best
30:29
interest of the Hub regardless of what the effect is on the other chain
30:34
I would say it's generally true yeah um I think I've said that before um there's of course like the greater
30:41
good there's a good of the Chand and there's like a greater good and there are some examples of votes like prop 16 where I voted what I thought was the
30:47
greater good of the greater Cosmos as opposed to just what is good for the chain itself
30:53
um but yeah what you said is is our general philosophy
30:58
yeah which which is I guess it's you know it makes sense in the context that what
31:05
we've seen But if you were it would be interesting to see how that panned out in a kind of
31:12
um the Solana validator level money
31:17
you know what I mean where your conflict of interest in one chain was like on this chain we make a thousand dollars a
31:24
month let's say and we spend 500 a month on servers so we're making you know 500 a month
31:33
cool on this one we hire two full-time members of staff to keep up with the
31:38
contract that we have to run this this node like that that is because that's where that's
31:46
where you also Clash up with the fact that validators are not representatives in a representative
31:52
democracy they are businesses with tax seasons
31:59
um and you know uh the the title of this podcast was a direct reference to uh it
32:06
it's corporate corporation tax season um in our jurisdiction and we've just
32:12
finished our draft return and what you learned from the way that
32:18
crypto is taxed for a business uh is that the good times are good but you also pay
32:27
very very heavily for anything you compound during the good times to hedge against what to
32:33
basically have a long term if you if you want to be a validator where people are like why why don't you
32:41
restake right you if you if you want to restake or compound to show your long-term interest and alignment with a
32:47
chain it's going to cost you in a funny in a funny way
32:54
when you're no longer making any money was is basically would be my like it's we
33:01
yeah we're fine I'm not complaining that would be uh crass and we are very happy
33:07
to pay our taxes but it is it is interesting to now see it all in a spreadsheet and go ah this particular
33:15
line here this cost because the the tokens that are restaked are now worth nothing
33:21
this money that we are paying taxes on was a principal decision and so they now
33:27
look I look at a situation like would would we definitely vote in the best interest of a chain where we had one
33:32
massively outsized paycheck that was paying for the party and the staff and then one paycheck over here that was
33:38
completely unconscious there was a rounding error I don't know I don't know what I don't
33:44
know what we would do in that situation do you think that like whether or not you restake your
33:52
tokens is you know you being aligned with the chain so we were just doing the
34:00
delegations policies for Juno and one of the policies is that
34:09
um you know you have a certain amount of restake During the period in a certain amount of bonded tokens
34:16
During the period and you know that is based around like showing your commitment I guess to
34:24
the chain but from a business perspective a lot of
34:30
time it doesn't make sense um particularly like you're saying regarding taxes
34:36
when you you penalized basically um in some jurisdictions for the way
34:44
we can restake especially in a heavy bull market when the token price is going up and you don't know when the
34:50
cliff is and if you're restating you're taking on all of the um the income tax
34:56
liability without taking any money off the table for attacks so
35:02
I think it's a you know it's a hard thing to like
35:09
balance um well there was a really good point made by artifact the other day
35:17
um said something I don't know because this is like this is potentially unpopular so I feel kind
35:24
of bad to basically just pinned it on somebody else and then going these are not my words
35:29
but something very smart right which is that um I think their background is financial services or Commodities maybe
35:36
Commodities and um they said look the the whole game is
35:43
uh maybe maybe not maybe not a business more generally but certainly what we do which has a financial
35:50
element where the the price is volatile right is that you need to identify
35:56
whether you're in a short or a long position now I'm sure like Noel [ __ ] knows all of this that this is just really obvious but
36:02
if you're in a short position uh you probably want to
36:07
sorry if you're if you already have what was I've already forgotten what you [ __ ] said now I sound like a [ __ ] idiot
36:13
um so he said like if you've got like a raw component and then you know there's things that
36:19
that component can make you want to be long the derivatives because they will get
36:25
made over time with a longer lead time and a less elastic to change in the market and
36:32
if the price is up on the thing that makes the other things
36:37
um I don't know what was a good example of this like uh palm oil right palm oil and
36:44
a Nutella right Nutella has been made of palm oil it has a lead time on it
36:49
they're always going to demand palm oil right so you want to be long Nutella and if the price of palm oil goes
36:56
up you want to get you want to get rid of your palm oil options that you have right you want to
37:02
get rid of your short your short position I think that's what he's getting at but but the point is this is
37:07
that if you're in a validator and you're even if you're dcaing
37:12
um like null would right if you're above the point where it's reasonable for you to sell to make
37:19
a business profit or to make acceptable Revenue you should always sell the tokens that come your way
37:26
because the tokens have no intrinsic utility they're not palm oil or whatever
37:31
you can't make additional things out of them with a little star because some would
37:38
argue that point but and as a validator more tokens are coming in the future so you're in
37:44
default a sort of a long position where they're going to come to you anyway so
37:50
you're already exposed to the long benefit it's just that you the cost of
37:55
the cost of not doing that is is affected by compound interest especially if you're in the early days of a chain
38:02
right I thought that was a very clever like observation to like summarize the whole
38:09
dilemma I guess if you like and you suddenly go [ __ ] hang on wait the dominant strategy
38:14
is basically always to sell if I understand this correctly so I here's what I think right
38:22
as a validator you make a constant Revenue whether it's a big one or a small one you you have a
38:28
constant revenue of tokens right um and I don't like you know obviously I'm
38:36
biased because we're all validators here but um I don't have a problem with selling a
38:42
large percentage of it most of the time we don't always sell but uh I'm saying I
38:49
don't have a problem with people selling them depending on the market conditions like when you take into account so we have
38:57
usually like a Line in the Sand and when the price is over the line we sell them
39:03
and when the price is under the line we just compound them because it doesn't make sense to sell them right but those
39:09
tokens that get compounded probably never really get sold they just sort of sit there estate because unstaking and
39:15
selling is just right not really something we we do we just we sell Revenue when it makes sense to and then
39:22
when it doesn't make sense to because of mainly reasons like damaging the market
39:28
more than it's already you know underpain um and also like you know
39:35
um like public perception as well as someone who's like actively damaging
39:41
the market and the brand by bashing the price into the ground but so in Australia when you stake does that count
39:51
as a disposal like do you when you make when you claim the reward and then so
39:57
you claim a reward you get some tokens now you need to decide whether steak or sale in our jurisdiction whether we
40:05
stake or sell we pay the tax on it bam that exact moment
40:10
you need to execute that within the same trading day either staking or selling
40:15
otherwise the tax gets a whole lot more complicated believe me but if you make a just binary decision
40:22
either way the amount of tax you pay on that day is the same the only difference is one situation it goes to your balance
40:29
sheet of assets where you say I have magic internet money beans
40:34
in a box here less stake they're gaining interest and then over here you have
40:40
pounds but you pay you know whether I get 500 money being staked or whether I get 500
40:47
pounds I still pay a hundred pounds in tax
40:53
and at the end of the year I have to pay that tax even if I don't have that hundred pounds
40:59
like we as a company have to pay that and if we don't have that then uh you
41:04
know yeah so what you're saying is I guess when when you claim your tokens uh like
41:11
your commission um and your your rewards right you're incurring an income tax liability which
41:18
means that you owe income tax on that money um if you have money to pay the income
41:24
tax with from selling it then you're fine and you've got your margin between you know what you sold in in what your
41:31
taxes so you get to keep 70 and the government gets 30 percent
41:36
um so that's at the at the price when you sell right so if you sell a thousand and they're worth ten dollars each then
41:42
you owe you know three thousand dollars in tax and you've got seven thousand dollars in your pocket uh if you claim them and
41:50
restate them then you still incur the income tax liability at the price they were when you
41:56
um claim them which is so you still owe three thousand dollars worth of tax and if you stake them and they go to so you
42:02
take your seven thousand dollars and you stake them and then the price goes down to a dollar well you've got a thousand
42:08
dollars worth of tokens and you have a capital loss of six thousand dollars so
42:15
that's the way it would work if you're an individual in Australia I'm having sure this is dispute with my accountant
42:22
about how it works but so but so in the situation where you end up in a lost position so hang on so
42:29
before you go on to further to further like um explain why that's bad is
42:37
because you can't offset a capital loss against income tax that's exactly what I was
42:43
about to say that's that is the essence of how as a validator you can go bankrupt by accident
42:52
and why I think was we saw so many validators as soon as the FTX thing
42:57
happened like a lot of the big ones the ones were big stuff who had maybe expanded a bit too big
43:03
they all had the same light bulb go on at the same time and they fired all their staff
43:09
like the second you go oh wait hang on you're saying that no matter how much
43:14
money we lose we cannot offset that against our income
43:20
tax that that is of I mean it's it's kind of
43:26
obvious really but yeah so in Australia that's how it works as
43:32
an individual and people shoot themselves all the time with that same problem because here's an example right
43:38
and this is different like it's not it's not staking um it's
43:44
you know I actually know this is completely different problem so I won't go into that I'll go into it here's an example like uh you're playing you're
43:50
playing two up on Anzac Day you make three thousand dollars the unit can't get taxed on um on
43:57
gambling profits in Australia um wait hold on a second are you telling me
44:03
yeah well hang on we should why we do the validation where we could be playing two up yeah well aren't we effectively
44:10
gambling anyway so um so anyway as a company though uh
44:16
company Tax Works different and there's like 10 handfuls of different
44:21
um tax accounting strategies you can use to um you know balance your books basically
44:28
so as a business or like a proprietary limited we can we can offset losses
44:37
against um income taxed by trading them as stock
44:42
and then doing it right down on the value of stock at the end of the year and offset that against profits because
44:48
it's not income and like in in a company you make income as a company it's really
44:53
Revenue right and so at the end of the year you make a profit and loss you don't have income
44:59
and so if you make profit operating profit of seven thousand dollars and
45:07
then you have a write down in your stock value of six thousand dollars which was
45:12
how much the stock went down you can offset that against your Revenue
45:17
so not only that if in a in a subsequent year so say if we have a good year
45:24
last Financial year right last last year was good um for validating so say if we made ten
45:30
thousand dollars right and we paid this three thousand dollars tax um then in the subsequent year we lost
45:38
ten thousand dollars we can claw back tax from the previous year to offset the losses from the subsequent year so this
45:45
is the argument you're currently having with your accountants so now my my argument with the accountant is
45:50
the the the um the value of the so it's really funny
45:57
when you make money as a validator because you're you don't have a cost base
46:04
for creating the token right so you know the cost base could be the cost of the
46:11
servers and the labor that goes into [Music] um you know the work that generates
46:19
the Rewards or the cost base could be the price of the token when you claim it
46:26
um do you have an income do you then have a cost base for a capital loss
46:32
um it's just the semantics around that I don't think we um are in agreement so we have to
46:38
have like a bit more of a conversation around that and it makes a big difference to the um
46:44
to the you know profit and loss at the end of the year because from what I
46:50
gathered they were saying that you have to take the revenue as the price at
46:55
which you um claim it and then like they were proposing
47:02
from what I was hearing they were trying to propose some other way of calculating the cost base or or that it's worth
47:08
nothing when you get them like [ __ ] what I just I just registered an income and now it's not worth anything as a
47:14
cost base like how the [ __ ] does that work so I'm not sure if I was just misunderstanding what
47:21
they were saying but we need to go back and clarify that in some meetings to get on the same page or
47:28
um go and talk to the government and get a clarification from them well that
47:33
sounds like the path that the United States might be taking after a Tesla's lawsuit that that happened where right
47:40
now in theory whenever you claim well in theory every six seconds every block you're supposed to pay taxes on the the
47:48
coins that are minted um Nobody Does it obviously so most people do it based off of when they actually hit claim but when they claim
47:54
that's whenever the income taxes in crew accrued not when you restate not when you sell just right when you claim and
48:02
then when you sell it'll do a different tax um activity uh however during the tezos
48:08
thing they said that well they're running their validators they claimed a bunch let's say a thousand tezos and
48:14
they never did anything but they just sat on it to hold it well because in theory they created those
48:21
tokens that means it's in a product and so if it hasn't been sold that means they haven't gotten income for it yet
48:26
so it shouldn't be taxed yet it should be taxed until it's sold or it's actioned upon like sent to someone
48:32
um and they actually won that lawsuit the IRS agreed like yeah okay it makes sense
48:38
that we wouldn't actually tax you for what you had already generated it wouldn't tax it until it's actually sold
48:43
wasn't sold therefore you don't actually owe the however much in taxes that you owe which is a big difference that means
48:48
restaking would then become extremely you know beneficial for United States companies because they could
48:55
continuously be restaking and not having crude attacks yet because they actually haven't sold it therefore they're whatever they're doing has no value yet
49:02
right but wouldn't the rest wouldn't the staking be a disposal
49:09
no I think technically the Tesla's people were restaking or something um but staking is just basically
49:15
continue to add to your pool that's not considered an action within that jurisdiction um right so some people are actually
49:21
acting on it as if that's the way the tech system is works now um I'm not quite that aggressive in my
49:27
interpretation of the tax law there is absolutely no way our government would have a bar that [ __ ]
49:34
yeah oh here it is really specifically the second you the second you stake that
49:40
[ __ ] disposal Bam um it's like you saw that
49:46
um and actually the thing is you it's even more complicated because you have every time you get a small pool of
49:52
tokens so let's say you claim 50 50 Dogecoin that's an actual coin
49:59
that's a joke name and it's of course it's been an actual crypto for a decade
50:04
are you sure that's accurate that it's staking is a [ __ ] disposal that
50:09
doesn't make any sense it's somewhat silly yeah well it's not
50:14
it's treated as if it's it's basically a taxable event is the main thing
50:21
there's actually another complicating Factor around that but that's not even worth going into if you're interested I
50:28
highly recommend you read hmrc's crypto assets manual I believe it's called CRP
50:34
1000 it's a absolute unit uh with really
50:40
detailed information on what you can and can't do some of which is a little bit mental and completely unenforceable to
50:47
the extent that hmrc themselves there's a couple of points where like yeah actually on balance we're going to
50:53
change this but almost all the rest of it is like do this to the latter and we won't touch you
50:58
um although I don't understand because you're still not I don't either
51:04
well it's not so it's not it's not a disposal it's just treated as if it's a disposal in terms of being a taxable
51:09
event because it's moving out of your control so it's like you've loaned it to another
51:14
entity and then when you regain it because you're you then have that plus
51:21
the tokens you got on top of it and you go oh okay that's now the value so if it's gone down when you unstake it you
51:28
take the diff of those two values and you go oh [ __ ] I've lost loads of money and then boom it's an instant
51:35
um Capital loss right but the problem is that that Capital loss doesn't [ __ ] help you
51:41
uh technology seems [ __ ] over there this is so this is probably my
51:47
terminology not hmrcs this is just my my understanding
51:52
of how it all fits together so that because your disposal
51:57
disposal but it's taking the effect is the effect is the same which is that you need to sell a stake on the same day
52:05
otherwise you need to keep track of the accrued value of that part that you
52:10
acquired on that day and then you need to track the difference between values of all your
52:16
individual parts from their delt from the Delta of the value you got them to where they land
52:21
when you sell them yeah like on a first in first out basis
52:26
or whatever and that is absolutely mental if you're collecting Revenue
52:31
every week let's say I mean very few people do claim rewards every week right
52:36
but for that reason so I should also say by the way disclaiming
52:42
to anybody listening and anybody watching this isn't it's not tax advice this is not space advice it's not
52:48
Financial advice this does not constitute you know check in your local tax Authority including in the UK and
52:54
Australia with a qualified accountant like the ones that
53:00
we have that check the spreadsheets that we give them that we do these kind of maths and do
53:06
this kind of high-level bookkeeping to try and get an idea of our profit position this is our understanding but
53:12
it's important to argue with them for hours we then give all these spreadsheets and
53:18
these calculations and all of the source data to train professionals who then actually come up with numbers and tell
53:24
us what is wrong what is wrong so you know pinch assault um
53:29
so I I have solved my um data
53:35
acquisition problem for tax
53:41
please higher scrapers on Fiverr oh that actually was it yeah you just go
53:49
and pay the scraper and they go and get all the [ __ ] information for you it's great so what did you provide them like here's
53:57
an end point second here's the website I need this information from these pages
54:06
go to work and then they just and so you trust the
54:11
output well you can spot check it right I I gave them a um uh
54:17
spreadsheet uh in like sheets spreadsheet with all of the points that I needed the data points and so
54:24
basically you know basically it's just transactions
54:29
uh hashes on the left you know transaction hashes from address to address amount
54:35
fee all that crap and then you know the the message uh Json as well at the end
54:44
so basically then I can just go and do custom stuff on all the different contracts and [ __ ] to get out the
54:49
information that I need so um yeah anyway we'll see how that goes
54:58
I mean the the salad's better than what I did it's inspired really
55:04
the alternative is to go and do it myself manually because I can't scrape for [ __ ] so I would have to go and
55:11
either like query the chain which is [ __ ] impossible because of all the forks
55:16
um and you know it'd be great if someone who had just indexed the entire [ __ ]
55:22
chain would just let us sub query the [ __ ] thing but anyway
55:27
um mint skin [Laughter] I get it I get it minskin but just [ __ ]
55:34
man give us a CSV for [ __ ] sake and um anyway the only other way I could do it
55:40
is to go and do it manually out of the out of the Explorers which just seems like a loss of an entire month
55:47
do you know it it didn't even occur to me when we were doing our 2020 wrap up one like most [ __ ] moments of 2022
55:54
up up in there should have been when coin gecko turned off the CSV export function for
56:00
um what was it daily daily rolling price
56:05
because you could you could you could literally get a spreadsheet between like literally 80 days and then you could
56:11
just in Excel go oh this one this column here and then the column one above to
56:17
the left why are you using XL man you can um oh whatever add them together
56:22
sheets inquiry their API they've got a [ __ ] free API well
56:27
what did I end up doing in the end now I ended up writing a script to do this for me because they haven't do it right in
56:34
your sheet I'm just saying that you used to be able
56:39
to just go like Wham get all the stuff just open LibreOffice and go but and then just drag drag the formula to the
56:45
bottom then you had the free the fair market value for like whatever all time uh and that was pretty useful but then
56:52
oh well I have to just make it make a CSV on the command line now that's easy peasy not the end of the world
56:58
um we were talking before the show about uh shortly we were talking in particular
57:04
about funding stuff and the economics of that and
57:10
I saw like there was there was quite a bit of shenanigans about uh I think it
57:15
was I think it was mainly around um I think confio was sort of talking about
57:21
it and there was some oh rahmas in the chat I saw Rama was giving confier a [ __ ]
57:27
hard time on Twitter was one of the other things that happened um and oh wait hold on I don't know about
57:35
Rama giving them hard a hard time what happened I can't remember exactly the context
57:41
but uh I think I saw Ethan Frey saying
57:47
to Rama do you not have any matters
57:53
and uh I felt like weighing in and saying Rama's just Australian wouldn't be helpful so I just
58:00
close Twitter instead but I I was just like I don't know to
58:07
what extent this is this is boisterous Australian is it versus actual giving
58:13
people a hard time but it certainly is the case that there's been like quite a
58:18
bit of discussion behind the scenes about funding and whatnot for uh I guess Dev teams that are building
58:26
like you know sort of core-ish infrastructure in the space and then we've also had quite a few
58:33
conversations about you know Grant applications and whether or not it's actually worth it and all
58:38
that kind of stuff and I think we have our own thoughts on
58:43
whether it's worth bothering for one of the better phrase right and then there's
58:48
two there's two things in Commonwealth right now just on Juno like that's how worry we're talking about the fmos for volunteers at the top of the show right
58:54
there's two things on Cosmo Cosmos on Commonwealth at the moment which are coming up on channel Juno uh gelato and
59:01
sardao right which are both funding props for for Community projects right so there's all
59:08
the way up here there's like the ICF and stuff and then there's because I know you should see because you were talking
59:14
about like getting funding for a prospective project at some point weren't you was that the ICF you were
59:19
talking to or was that somebody else uh I actually talked to quite a few projects about funding
59:25
um I think I've talked to talk to my projects with you about a couple times
59:31
not not the well I have a project that I have pretty well scoped out
59:36
um and I've gone to ICF I've talked to quite a few different projects about getting funding and it basically
59:42
universally it's been like yeah that sounds like a really cool project it sounds doable
59:48
we would love you through the funnel and then the funnel just kind of dries up right so it's like one of those
59:54
things where you have to well I haven't solved it yet so I don't really know what the solution is um I bet we go find you a nice VC sir
1:00:03
I have Dr Strangelove and Strangelove has been interested but that that enters a different realm though like there's
1:00:09
actually a Dev Grant and going BC because that means I'm you know splitting things off and I don't know I
1:00:16
feel like I'm not desperate enough for that yet when you're a VC you're you're ironed on you like that's that that's
1:00:21
the thing like and that's the we we both we both on the startup dance
1:00:28
haven't we before where you see the founders of the company you work for and you know
1:00:33
you you get a lower salary when you go to Startup anyway because it's like oh it's all about the mission or whatever
1:00:39
but you usually get to do slightly cooler stuff right and then you have this like realization on like
1:00:46
uh I don't know like a a company [ __ ] Christmas do or
1:00:52
something where all the booze is getting drunk and this big Swanky party and stuff and you're like the founders are
1:00:58
basically on minimum wage because they're getting paid by VC that's like What's Happening Here and then you're
1:01:04
like what the [ __ ] that doesn't make any sense like they they're they're the most exposed I think ain't paid well I mean
1:01:11
but that's the date that's the deal isn't it right um so it's a bit of a strange like position
1:01:16
to come in like when you've because I mean whether you whether
1:01:22
however long you've been in the space right if you've survived even this long through the bear you must have at least
1:01:28
a semi-viable business so the idea of sacking a business on the head to go chasing VC money and then taking a very
1:01:36
very very subordinate position in that relationship is like not super
1:01:43
yeah exactly right so like VC is an option and I've actually spoken with um traditional firms about funding for it
1:01:50
and again interest but again VC and I don't know I've seen other
1:01:56
people doing the song and dance about going for VC funding and doing series aaced funding whatever
1:02:02
I'm just not interested in it like I want to build a cool product that I would use I don't know can you tell us
1:02:09
what the project is Sheltie uh
1:02:14
no the gist is it a tax platform [Laughter]
1:02:20
no nfts for dogs exactly right yeah nfts
1:02:25
for dogs sorry I know you've told me in confidence but I think it's a great idea you need to get it out there
1:02:31
uh yeah I process the genes of a dog and then I print an nft of it pretty cool
1:02:38
oh you thought people would actually buy that man they probably would you literally literally got the what's the
1:02:45
thing I'm thinking of is it crispr what's the thing where you have like the the fingerprint of the genetic it's
1:02:51
Christmas is the genetic modification yeah
1:02:57
hey what if nft collection 1000 unique nfts [ __ ] up dogs we just you're
1:03:04
talking about genetic sequencing yeah we just get we just get right we just run a bunch of dog DNA through crispr using
1:03:11
chat GPT make nfts everybody gets a [ __ ] up dog five thousand dollars each
1:03:19
they're done problem solved hey we don't need money fellas I've got it sorted
1:03:24
right let's let's go knock this out if we if we hurry we can have it done by midnight and we'll be millionaires by
1:03:30
1am I reckon okay here you go uh nft generating platform right you can
1:03:37
mint an nft you have to go and get your pet's DNA sequenced you can enter the
1:03:44
DNA into the the platform and you will get your dog's features based on its DNA
1:03:51
sequencing in the nft but you can also crisp the [ __ ] out of it and like [ __ ]
1:03:58
it up with crispr and do [ __ ] that'd be kind of fine yeah that'd be fun so it's
1:04:04
like a gamified nft minting [ __ ] that sounds fun yeah did anybody uh so I've
1:04:12
jokingly now whenever whenever I share with any of the lads uh like an article
1:04:18
or something I just say oh here's the seminar reading for this week but did Eddie already actually read the
1:04:23
article that I put in the chat the other day which which was in the seminar reading category
1:04:30
um because that that what Noel just described could literally be
1:04:35
an actual modern art piece like as in an actual semi that there's there's this
1:04:41
whole description of um a modern art piece in that article where the people who do
1:04:47
it are told what to do verbally by the artist it's never written down and they
1:04:53
perform the piece in a gallery and
1:04:59
somebody was able to buy this artwork
1:05:04
you basically get lawyers either side of the table to to witness what is
1:05:11
happening and the artist writes down from memory what they told everybody to
1:05:16
do on a piece of paper goes uh uh I think even puts it in a
1:05:23
[ __ ] box so they can't replicate it because copyright you're not buying out the copyright you're just buying the
1:05:28
artwork you're just buying a representation of the artwork and they put in a box and they're like right
1:05:33
there's the key you promise you're not gonna go do unlicensed copies of this artwork and
1:05:40
then oh there was some insane thing where I'm pretty sure this was like I need to
1:05:46
reread the article actually but there was there was something where a piece of art like that actually had a secondary
1:05:52
market for it where somebody had basically but anyway so because of
1:05:58
making an unlicensed copy and it was like oh what are we gonna do it's like
1:06:04
this this breaks my brain it has no if it has no Essence no form
1:06:10
um they are almost too weird to me I get Pokemon cards but nothing else makes
1:06:15
sense but I I mean I think so the the author of the article
1:06:20
um is uh was is Mackenzie walk who wrote Capital is dead and wrote a number of
1:06:28
also very good things um but I think or at some point I'm pretty sure I saw her
1:06:35
um post a ride tweet I don't think they ever found a crypto but I think they posted something like well nfts are
1:06:41
pretty much the final form of art aren't they so so The Fray was you I didn't
1:06:48
quite get what you're saying but it sounds like you're art in a box is like the schroding is
1:06:56
cat of Art in that it can be simultaneously [ __ ] or good as long as
1:07:01
it's in the Box something like that I don't remember if you get to read the piece of paper or whatever the the the
1:07:07
name of the the article if you want to Google it safe search on is my
1:07:12
collectible ass by Mackenzie walk I think that's the name of the essay in question
1:07:20
um so yeah it's quite good it's another one of those ones that makes you go hold on there's nothing new Under the
1:07:26
Sun um but uh yeah like so what do we actually think
1:07:33
of so in the context of like like really specific things then like what do we think of like
1:07:38
because they like the gelato thing like I think that's quite interesting because they did a prop like quite some time ago
1:07:43
right and everybody's like um and then they went and built it and now they're like
1:07:49
well we built it can we now have some money to continue building like I mean
1:07:54
you know my [ __ ] you know what I have to say about this please
1:08:01
well well there's two things now is not the time to ask for money like pain
1:08:07
everywhere that you just [ __ ] throwing away big handfuls of tokens that will be worth a lot more later on
1:08:14
but that said make a [ __ ] sustainable project like why does everyone have to
1:08:21
subsidize everyone's projects I just don't get it well because there's no the the argument
1:08:28
is simple right especially for a train like Juno and implicitly every other chain
1:08:34
the token has no utility unless work is done and the work is the work of the smart
1:08:41
contracts like the the smart contracts need to you need smart contracts to do things in order for there to be utility
1:08:46
it's a it's a [ __ ] Aura Bros isn't it like there's no so why why have a board
1:08:54
it's a circle what is it what was it what was it Riders what was rydo's term it was a it's a circle stake isn't it
1:08:59
it's a circle stake that's what's going on but why I just [ __ ] if why have all the
1:09:07
chains then like if they're all competing for the devs not why not just have one chain and let them create some sustainable projects until they run out
1:09:15
of like you know available compute on that chain and then start another one like why you know why try
1:09:24
and attract all the developers if all they're going to do is come and take the free money and then [ __ ] off like you
1:09:29
need to encourage people for reasons other than taking money from the community pool to
1:09:35
develop or taking money from a Dev fund to develop like they clearly don't want to [ __ ] be there yeah but get people
1:09:41
who want to be there no no you know why but no but there is a
1:09:49
saying right there is a saying uh in the labor in the labor movement of a fair a
1:09:54
fair day is pay for a fair day's work right I like I don't I don't believe in
1:09:59
working for free and I try not to do it like I work for free on Juno
1:10:05
for however many months six months or something but that was a very
1:10:11
like that's the thing you do once in a once in a kind of career because you're just like this is genuinely interesting
1:10:17
and it might go somewhere but you shouldn't and like the fact that then you know there were a lot of a lot
1:10:24
of things around that situation that meant that that was even possible one of them was obviously like working on other stuff to bring in income and being a
1:10:31
freelancer already in blah blah blah you know like it was a privileged position but
1:10:36
you shouldn't wear for free like that's just a [ __ ] dumb so should people okay you you live in a
1:10:44
community and um you know they they want the community to be good right they want
1:10:52
to make a great community and then other people come to the community and we all have [ __ ] hold hands and spin around
1:10:57
the circle right so you have you want to you know you're you're there
1:11:04
in the community you want to have a project and get paid for it right so you come up with a project to like create a
1:11:12
Lego sculpture of a squirrely turd that you can put in your cupboard and never
1:11:17
see the light of day again you're doing work should you ask everyone to pay for you to [ __ ] do it
1:11:24
I don't know there's a benefit the people who are paying for it like why you know maybe well it depends for a
1:11:33
million dollars it's worth nothing it depends on a few things right it depends on whether we are actually a community
1:11:38
it depends on whether it depends on well you are asking a community of of token
1:11:44
holders to pay for something yeah and if that if that is just to pay someone for doing work that they're doing there has
1:11:51
to be inherent value in the work that they're doing and there has to be sustainability of the project for the
1:11:56
work that they're doing otherwise they're bringing no value and you're paying them to just [ __ ] jerk themselves off yeah so that's a fair
1:12:02
point I mean the point is that we're we're just a bunch of [ __ ] nerds on the internet right so actually like
1:12:08
yeah you don't have to all all of the social costs of not paying somebody for
1:12:14
doing work are born elsewhere right and in addition most work is unnecessary
1:12:22
because but the problem is uh in essence the issue is this right
1:12:29
which is that most of the stuff we're doing in this space has no [ __ ] utility most of it is a circle stake
1:12:36
so in order for anybody to turn over enough rocks to find the really good use
1:12:44
cases okay there are some ahead of time we know are garbage we know there are some ahead of time
1:12:51
that are probably quite good right but there is also an element of infinite monkeys infinite typewriters
1:12:57
isn't there where you inherently want to get smart people
1:13:04
in the space and start them banging rocks together because that tends to be how good stuff
1:13:12
gets turned over I mean like that's literally the model for like
1:13:17
State what they call valve and that's the model for 3M incorporate like is
1:13:23
this model's been tried a number of times in corporate history as an incubator for Innovation the the
1:13:30
thing that's that's hard to control for is not the project because the most
1:13:35
projects are garbage right it's the quality of the people that's hard to
1:13:42
um that right so it's like I think is the problem not
1:13:48
like social or Talent or whatever like that it's not it's not the it's not the money per se right because if you if you
1:13:56
just hang on to the money and then the chain never goes anywhere the chain dies it goes to zero and all those
1:14:02
hypothetical tokens that were worth one dollar are worth zero dollars so they go to zero anyway like the end
1:14:08
result is being done the money the money of a of a network right the token money
1:14:15
is from the token holders right so the value of a network the market cap of a
1:14:21
network is based on how much people are willing to pay for the token for the network right
1:14:27
every time especially right now every time we spend money from a community pool or a Dev fund we [ __ ] take a bat
1:14:35
and we smack the [ __ ] Community with it right because it's incredibly damaging even 30 100 Grand at the moment
1:14:42
to sell on Market is damaging with LP pulls the size of
1:14:48
two million dollars right so that's one aspect the other aspect is
1:14:54
that I think that if you believe in a project you will build it for free if
1:15:01
it's a sustainable project and you know that you can make money out of it there's a bunch of hands out in the in
1:15:08
the ecosystem for people that just come up with a project for the sake of coming up with a
1:15:14
project to get some money to build it so that's that's kind of what we were
1:15:19
talking about earlier though right where a lot of these so-called handouts they don't actually follow through a lot of
1:15:25
the time yeah I mean a lot of people don't follow through but a lot of other people just come up with a clone of another project
1:15:31
and copy the [ __ ] code base and make give it make it look a bit different or add a feature or something
1:15:37
um just to turn the wheels so that they can get paid for their time to do that [ __ ] and then it inherently has zero
1:15:44
[ __ ] value because it's just a clone of something else and it's just people spinning their wheels to get paid for
1:15:49
their time so which incidentally is that what is that good for I just want to observe
1:15:56
that we've accidentally stumbled onto the porch of David graber's third book
1:16:02
[ __ ] jobs where more than one book I mean boys I think I think he had five
1:16:08
or six before he died possibly more sorry to the ghost of David Graber if I got that wrong
1:16:13
um but yeah I mean did you read the Adam Smith book after you read the um uh
1:16:20
which one sorry the the one that Graber talks about all the time oh well from Nate you mean I thought you meant the
1:16:27
Graber had written some booklet but I I had to read The Wealth of
1:16:32
Nations for for for college if you had to read the entire thing for
1:16:38
wow isn't it like 1200 pages it's not that big is it I think it is because it's probably
1:16:44
coming into five parts right maybe I read a condensed version then because it was the version I wrote was not 1200
1:16:50
Pages maybe it's like a there's like an excerpts of it the for like an economics
1:16:56
primer or something click the cliff notes version I mean a lot of it is just like [ __ ] or the the good bits are
1:17:03
[ __ ] obvious and then a lot of the rest of it as it turns out is completely apocryphal anyway so
1:17:09
um what you gonna do um but I want to just pull out so oh yeah
1:17:17
so um yeah World of Nations in the cut another book yeah so anyway well I've
1:17:22
heard the theories of moral sentiment is also really good his first book so just throwing that out there I I it's in my
1:17:28
card that I need to buy anyway go on sorry uh so no it's just saying like I think what you're describing their knowledge that like you shouldn't do
1:17:34
[ __ ] jobs basically like jobs that don't need doing shouldn't be done and that's maybe the problem we have so
1:17:40
thank you David Graber for helping us with that one again we've got a [ __ ] ton of comments so I'm
1:17:46
gonna pull some of them out um oh you're [ __ ] hang on hang on
1:17:51
hold the [ __ ] phone holy [ __ ] sec right so Adam bombs Amazon does Amazon
1:17:57
not keep your card uh it depends if you've got shut up now
1:18:03
it's time to do some comments uh Adam Bomb says upload DNA to an nft then
1:18:09
clone the dog when it dies like it that's very uh what's the film where that happens is it AI or is it
1:18:16
no that's a that's a Black Mirror uh episode right is it okay right there you go yeah so the AI is Pinocchio isn't it
1:18:24
that's just a science fiction Pinocchio uh course
1:18:30
they run through the comments so there was a uh there was a Black Mirror episode where it was like an end of life
1:18:37
thing right so after you decided that you've had enough of the real world you
1:18:44
could go and upload yourself into the computer and you just live forever in the computer that was actually Neil Stevenson's last
1:18:52
book but one I had to stop watching Black Mirror after one of the episodes where the guy
1:18:58
like recorded everything was I that was too visceral for me I had to back out it was way too much it's too real right I
1:19:05
[ __ ] love Black Mirror I wish absurdly good fantastic I would
1:19:11
recommend it to anyone even if I can't stomach it I even loved altered cub and continue the fight with you I'm sure I'm I'm sure
1:19:18
I've said this before but the writers of Nathan barley were the original writers of Black Mirror
1:19:26
of Nathan what is that uh Nathan barley which is the the Hipster uh parody show
1:19:32
it's an old British comedy um which I know I don't have no watch
1:19:37
but I know usurper watched um it's got like ritual Iowa it's a very young Richard iade and uh like uh junior
1:19:44
Julian thingy from the mighty who would have gone to be the mighty Bush and yeah anyway
1:19:50
um so uh but yeah they did a really good comedy show and then they went on to
1:19:55
write uh Black Mirror uh so yeah cause that's harm says art is money laundering
1:20:00
in some cases it is I think that um yeah I mean those those big value
1:20:06
themes I think there's a bit of money laundering and also tax evasion going on uh with on ethereum with like the big
1:20:12
value nfts but I think that like nfts can also just be community and fun as
1:20:19
well like doesn't necessarily have to be money laundering like the cheap nfds that we've got on I did but I don't
1:20:25
think I don't think I don't think his point was well that point was necessarily oh sorry he said R equals
1:20:31
yeah art
1:20:36
I think you have some subconscious uh no that's that's like the main point of nfds right that's why they were created
1:20:43
to money launder I mean too Fair that's what happened with that beeple one wasn't it it was literally them buying their own nft
1:20:49
wasn't it they were just wash trading there at nft um uh I don't know what jurisdiction
1:20:55
they're in so uh allegedly was trading their own uh nft just in case they're in the same jurisdiction as mine and watch
1:21:02
this podcast anyway uh soy tea Studio says the whole the whole funding
1:21:07
Community funding Concept in crypto is nonsense imagine going on Dragon's Den saying we have no product to track
1:21:14
record for me please I don't I don't agree with that um Dragon I mean I would say community
1:21:20
funding is more like venture capital in the sense that you're generally from what I've seen like presenting what I
1:21:27
want to do and this is this will be the Fallout Dragon's Den is you have your product but you want to actually like
1:21:32
expand it from its current market right so I would say they're they're not quite the same
1:21:39
yeah I think some people that go and some people go on Dragon's Den with an idea though or like a very early stage
1:21:46
product some but they're the ones who have been put in by the producers to get laughed at
1:21:52
because remember the producers vet everybody they're going to put on the show right so they specifically put in some people to get laughed at for
1:21:58
entertainment value and they're all the people that all the people that idea level pretty much unanimously
1:22:04
are the ones who are going to get laughed at but then I don't watch every episode of dragons then so they're probably some exceptions
1:22:11
to the rule right my favorite one was probably a like two thousand dollar water filter where they talked about how
1:22:16
it tasted so good it was a it was a pyramid scheme of course um and then they gave some of the water
1:22:22
to the Dragon's Den folks and they hadn't like pre-filtered it or whatever so the water tasted awful and so they
1:22:27
were like you're trying to give us like shitty water what are you doing and one guy was just like streams of
1:22:34
sweat down his face uh it was so they literally just gave him like a cup of water oh they gave him literally
1:22:41
a cap it wasn't from a tap he had like a little water filter machine which are normally you know like 50 bucks or whatever but they're selling it for like
1:22:47
two thousand dollars with no value add
1:22:53
um put some like Menthol in it and Davis says application specific blockchain
1:22:59
should have specific applications on them yeah couldn't agree more uh we should distinguish between public goods
1:23:06
funding and business funding this is actually a good point which is that you know what we've just been talking about
1:23:11
there which is kind of the the props that are coming up uh and seen elsewhere is very much about
1:23:18
um projects right whereas uh Rama roasting people on Twitter was very much
1:23:24
about um funding for already delivered software maintenance of that software
1:23:31
Etc which is you know that's the the comfio piece that's the core infrastructure piece right which is like
1:23:36
much more like almost like a B2B support contract or
1:23:41
something like you would see in the corporate sector maybe I don't know um but they are they are different
1:23:47
things right um uh so
1:23:52
yeah and then following up on this point earlier sorry to Studios says an industry full of grifters the purse string should be tighter than the real
1:23:58
world which I guess is kind of like a different way of saying what Noel was talking about uh raw God there's a lot of comments
1:24:06
thanks Lads I'm just gonna have to read them all out online I'm just gonna I'm gonna eject and just say more [ __ ]
1:24:12
because I like the sound of my voice so just with
1:24:18
with funding and and projects and stuff right it seems to me like any project worth
1:24:25
building people build and make an app chain out of it is this not the app chain thesis
1:24:31
like I you have to wonder why you would even have a general purpose
1:24:37
smart contract platform I mean for one junk purpose smart contract platform you have a community
1:24:43
to to leverage right if I was building on Juno I would feel no guilt in messaging The Fray and being like hey
1:24:49
I'm having this issue with a smart contract however if I are building my own chain I wouldn't feel quite the same
1:24:55
about it because yeah yeah exactly what was that
1:25:03
by the way on this no it's not it's not I mean I'm just thinking out loud I'm
1:25:09
not saying that they shouldn't be general purpose they've changed and just thinking out loud well also I think that part of the problem that we've
1:25:15
encountered so far is we haven't had a lot of very ambitious uh app chins just
1:25:20
yet in my opinion um we've got you know Crescent is just under decks osmosis is just a deck I
1:25:27
know osmosis is way more than that but in the grand scheme of things it's just a Dax we haven't anything that really
1:25:33
leverages you know a full out chain concept yet so I think that whenever
1:25:38
you're talking about something that might take a year or two to build it makes more sense to go to the ICF or whatever for funding before you actually
1:25:45
start building like you need to get funding to to funnel for a full two years or however long to actually build
1:25:51
so I mean this is the essential problem of where we are right now is that the app chain concept assumes that you have
1:25:57
time to build a time and money to build an app chain right which at the moment it doesn't really seem like people are
1:26:03
capable of leveraging the SDK for anything other than minor modifications of existing stuff I mean like Juno V12
1:26:12
is a big package of features that took a long time to integrate and test but they're largely they are largely if not
1:26:18
entirely I mean there's some new stuff in there obviously because there always is when you integrate other software and you
1:26:24
have to Tinker or add things that are specific for your chain but they are
1:26:30
adaptations right there's not a novel there's not really a novel
1:26:36
concept to all of that and actually there's an argument of whether or not you should be adding too much
1:26:42
custom stuff to a general purpose chain that's probably for another day
1:26:48
but like there is this fundamental disconnect between developer ergonomics required to make app chains possible in
1:26:53
a meaningful time frame for before a team runs out of money and where we demonstrably appear to be with
1:27:00
the SDK or you know maybe we're just still too early and in a few years time there'll be thousands of SDK developers
1:27:06
knocking out the the point of the SDK is that you just have to write in your module right and just make some minor
1:27:12
yeah so why don't people do that yeah I don't know for ergonomics that's the answer so why
1:27:19
do people like way more smart contracts than they write SDK modules because the ergonomics of writing rust
1:27:26
and cosmoasm are way better or or is the mechanics of wasn't more
1:27:32
appropriate to what they're trying to do well also that actually there's a there's a pretty strong argument that
1:27:37
you may as well just have the lightweight VM and just move on with your life
1:27:44
you heard it here first folks I think we've been I think we've been talking about this for nearly a year now
1:27:51
but um right I'm looking at the clock I'm like [ __ ] right we'll go get some through some more comments so Rama says
1:27:56
gelato has 30k Juno in volume in six months rack has 2.5 million volume if
1:28:03
you can't make a product people uh if you can't make a product people
1:28:08
use why be fun if you can't make a product people use why should it be funded shots fired shots fired
1:28:18
um Adam Bomb says uh oh this is at me I guess um I don't think the infinite monkeys
1:28:23
theory is an efficient use of resources we should be infinitely better identifying a true need and working to solve it uh well we won't be infinitely
1:28:30
better we can only be slightly less than infinitely better because that's how Infinity works that was really needlessly trolley response but yeah I
1:28:38
mean we could be just slightly less [ __ ] at it yeah I mean yeah uh Charlie Brooker being married to a blue Peter
1:28:45
presenter never made sense to me uh yeah there's a really good lockdown thing where he has to do an episode or
1:28:51
something from his own house and it's just him and Connie Huck and their children and he's like everything's
1:28:56
insane but I'm married to the nicest person in Britain it's very weird very funny um good all right okay uh
1:29:04
um Community okay so they're talking about community pools we've got a minute left uh as Noah will tell you community
1:29:10
pools are not assets the liabilities against liquidity pools any community pool spend is reflected as a reduction in the price of the tokens you hold and
1:29:17
that's why you need to be careful about community pools which actually is a point that null has made before
1:29:22
many times you're somehow smarter than you you look now you know I'll just say that
1:29:28
um uh and yeah God yeah and yeah there's a lot
1:29:34
more comments along that line about the I know I'm about to get rugged so just now like uh I I just I don't know what
1:29:41
to do um so anyway uh foreign
1:29:46
[Music]