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foot out of the pub. I don't think it's like, it's like what time is it on the West coast right now?

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1pm. Right. So he's probably not at the pub. He's not a big drinker anyway. Like last time,

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I'm pretty sure he was just like drinking fucking sparkling water or something last

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time I saw him in a drinking hole. Welcome to Game of Notes,

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a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams.

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Hello and welcome to Game of Notes, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator

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teams. And we are still awaiting, I don't know how much of that was live before.

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Cool. But we're still awaiting Jake who may be in the pub. So yes, we're still, we're waiting on

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Jake. He will be here at some point and then we can crack out the spreadsheet and get rocking.

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Until then, hello everybody. Welcome to 2023, an exciting new year of bear market awaits.

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And you can't really see it, but we've, we've got a special background here, which is an old meme

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that I ripped off of Jaby, I think, although another person who's rugged us.

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Was Jaby supposed to be on tonight as well? Well, he was supposed to be on last week. And then there

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was kind of noise about maybe this week and, and, and that's, that's obviously not happened. So

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Jaby, Jaby, Jaby. Maybe I better go back to organising the guests made.

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Well, I mean, I don't really do it. I just send DMS to people done and they let me down.

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Done. Jaby is not supposed to be a guest. He's supposed to be a regular.

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He's friend of the show. He's supposed to be. When you haven't been here for 10 months, you

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can no longer be called a regular. I mean, yeah. Like one day when this is like a mega podcast,

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historians of the podcast can go back and work out exactly what the gap is between

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this show and when he was last on. And I would guess it's six months,

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maybe. No, no, no. Cause it was the autumn one with the dog bouncing around the background.

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So it's, it's gotta be probably only four months, I guess. Yeah. That's the view outside. So for

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those of you listening on podcast players, we just got treated to a panoramic webcam tilt from NAR.

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That was for Rama. To show the somewhat cloudy. Cause it's the middle of summer for you, isn't it?

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Yeah, it's like, yeah, definitely in the middle of summer. But I think a lot of the,

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a lot of the cloudiness of that was like the cleanliness of that window.

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It's, it is overcast. Right. Is it like, is it like jellyfish season at the moment?

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It depends on which way the wind goes. If you get an onshore wind that might bring up blue bottles

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and jellyfish, but not really like maybe up, up North at like Cairns and that you get your kanji.

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So you can't really go swimming up there unless you got a stinger suit.

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Yeah. And presumably if you're not, wait, wait, wait. Okay. Let's wait. We're going to have to

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come back to what you just said there. Cause stinger suit, what? Yeah. Let's put a pin in that.

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So wait, wait, wait, wait. You don't have the lethal, the lethal

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flora and fauna where you are right now. Cause I mean, we are all, we all know everything we know

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about Australia because of the Simpsons, right? Which is that everything will kill you. Right.

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Yeah. So, well, at the moment you could probably die in seven different ways before you get to your

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gate just from the snakes and fucking ants and not ants, but there's other things with legs, spiders.

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Like when I went out to get a coffee this morning, I literally walked through a spider's web with a

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fucking enormous spider in it. Didn't see it. But yeah, like on the coast here is like pretty

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populated. There's not really too much stuff here that will eat you, but in the water. So in this

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area, you can get box jellyfish, which are pretty bad if you run into one of those. But other than

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that, there's these little, little jellyfish. They're like pretty small. They're called Ericangie

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and they're super lethal, but they're up in the warmer waters up north.

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I thought it was box that were lethal. Yeah. They're pretty bad. They'll fucking fuck you up.

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Right. So, so where, so, okay. I promise.

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Well, there's not tons of them though. We put a bit in there a second ago.

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What the fuck's a stinger suit? Yeah. So when you're up in Cairns, when you're up at like Cairns or

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up in the northern parts of Australia, all in that tropical coast is they've got Ericangie, right?

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They're like little jellyfish that are deadly. So, as well as crocodiles and shit, but so a

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stinger suit is just like a wet suit. It's like from here, you know, to your wrists, to your ankles,

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and you can wear booties that if you like bump into them, then they can't sting you.

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So you can go to the stinger hand. So yeah, but you know, little mittens on whatever your face,

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thing, your face, actually the stinger suits are like, yeah, they come like right over. So it's

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just like your face sticking out. So let's just say that you're like significantly reducing the

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surface area that you can be stung. In order to go in the water, you need to fully, fully close off

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any entrance, any patch of skin, any entrance to your body. Yeah. And it's like hot as well,

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because it's the summer. Beautiful. Are you suggesting that the scene in Point Break with

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Patrick Swayze when he goes and swims during the hurricane, that probably wasn't correct because

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he wasn't wearing a stinger suit? No. So that was, so Point Break was, what's the name of that

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beach? That's Bell's beach. That's all the way down in the south of Australia, down on the south

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coast. And that's not a lethal beach. Okay. No, no, there's no Urikanji down there. There's only

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sharks. Probably a lot of sharks down in the boat. So,

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just lots of sharks. Wait, wait. So hold on. Just to bring this back to a previous point then,

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what are your thoughts on Point Break? Because we've established you don't like heat and you're

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wrong, but you, Point Break? Point Break's a great movie. One of the best. Right. So we're,

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okay. So Point Break- Right up there with dirty dancing.

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There's a lot to take in the statement that was just made. Yep. Okay. I just saw, I just saw

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look. We were like, we were like, oh my God. Hold on now. Like a car crash out of the middle of

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nowhere. That dirty dancing is a fantastic movie. Yeah, I think so too. It's a classic Swayze movie.

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Wait, did you say Patrick Swayze?

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Wait, who's in that? It's a good movie anyway.

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Hello. Welcome to Game of Knows, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from Indefect.

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Special against Patrick Swayze.

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Right. Patrick Sway- Swayze. Swayze. That's how I've heard it said.

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So that's, that's, that's what I would say to that. Anyway-

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It is Patrick Swayze. The Swayze I said.

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You said Patrick Swayze.

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No, I said this Swayze.

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You did? Well, good thing we're recording this. We'll go back.

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Good thing we're, yeah, we can, we can go back to this.

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Hey, you go back. You've set the record straight.

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When you start editing the podcast version, this could be like,

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I'm a liar. I knew it. I knew it. 100%.

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Rewind 30 seconds.

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I thought you were looking weird because I thought that all of a sudden like,

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Patrick Swayze wasn't in that movie. I'm like, I went and looked it up and I'm like,

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yeah, it's Patrick Swayze.

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And Keanu? Busey's the best in that movie though.

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Fucking Busey's awesome in that movie. Utah.

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Around the corner. There's a sandwich shop. Best meatball sandwich I've ever had.

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Is Gary Busey in that movie?

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Oh yeah. I'm going back to, I'm going back to watch it.

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I love Gary Busey.

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He's Utah's partner. When he gets, when he wants, when they're doing the stake out and he wants him

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to go get a, go get two meatball sandwiches. Utah. Give me two.

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I think I need to, I actually need to, I need to go back and watch Dirty Dancing and Grease.

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I think they were two cool movies.

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And what was the other one?

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Grease.

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Grease? Okay. Okay.

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Yeah man. Cool.

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Be a 12 year old girl again. Love it.

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100%. Do you sing along?

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No.

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Everyone sings along with Grease. Come on.

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They got the sickest cars in that movie, man. It's fucking, you just can't get those cars anymore.

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I should go back and watch Point Break. I haven't watched that movie in 20 years.

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I bet you it still holds up.

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So yeah. Go back to back with Dirty Dancing. Just do a Swayzathon.

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Swayzathon.

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Throw some ghost in there. I'm not as big a fan of ghost, but it's still good.

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I did actually watch Roadhouse just a few months ago. Roadhouse is a good fucking movie.

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Roadhouse is funny for the memes.

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But a lot of memes floating around for Roadhouse, is there?

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I think it started with that Family Guy thing where he just started kicking people and going,

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Roadhouse.

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Right.

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It's a funny joke, to be honest.

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But yeah.

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I think that actually-

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It's amazing how fast South Park is on this stuff. Like with, you know,

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SBF and all that shit. South Park's always straight on to current events. They're pretty good.

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It's good.

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Well, they make them as events unfold, right? The episodes are literally made the day before

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or something.

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South Park is just like a living history of, you know, it's like literally the history books of

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the world.

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History books of shitposting, at least.

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History will be told with South Park and schools in the 2400s.

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In the post-apocalyptic rubble. So the final thing we actually got, we rugged ourselves,

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Kaman, but who rugged who? Did I get rugged? I think I got rugged last week.

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There was a rugged.

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We talked about the results of the merch poll, right? So, and like a prat, I've actually

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closed the results of the merch poll and get them back up.

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Talking about the merch poll.

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Talk amongst yourselves.

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Talk amongst yourselves.

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So I got my partner a coffee. I think she's still in bed.

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I'm going to go and see if she started to drink it and steal it.

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Okay.

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So half the show, my like, oh, I need to just look up the results of this merch poll.

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Null's reaction is I will also leave the chat.

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That was like two layers of talks amongst yourselves. That was talks amongst yourselves

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and Null's like, I'm going to leave. You guys talk amongst yourselves.

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And I get up and shulties by himself.

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Oh boy. Is that your suggestion for a sticker?

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Talks amongst yourself?

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No, that is that the chili peppers?

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I don't know who that is, but that's an awful picture.

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I don't know. It's a good picture though.

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Okay. So the, we asked on Twitter last week before the 2022 award show,

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whether we should do some merch because as people may know, some of the lads who are not,

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yeah, who are not as lame as me are going to be in ETH for Denver, in Denver for ETH Denver,

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next March, doxxed. If you have a grievance to air with them, you can find the person.

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You say for wanted stickers and then yeah, merch. So we put a poll on Twitter or I put a poll on

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Twitter, which had some of the statements from last year's game of nodes that were in the

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spreadsheet. Notably, I forgot to put holistically wholesome on the list, but based on the poll,

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I think it wouldn't have got much traction anyway, cause all the sweary ones won. So

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the options were W A G T G A for we are all going to jail, drop in nines, which I know we're all

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fans of the general public. We're not interested in that one. Fungible as fuck. They validate with

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better values. Which was the runaway winner, the absolute runaway winner, fungible as fuck,

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got double the votes of any other option. And I think that's the one that's been the most

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runaway winner. Fungible as fuck got double the votes of any other option. And I think got more

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votes than all of the others put together. Yes, it did. And then the final option was I dump shit

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coins. You know, the kind of, then the kind of I see dead people sort of 1990s. What film was that?

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Sixth Sense.

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Kind of, yeah, kind of M Night Shemailan kind of vibe. The, the I dump shit.

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Shemailan?

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Shemailan?

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Featuring Patrick Swayze.

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Well, okay, whatever. Featuring Patrick Swayze. So I dump shit coins was also pretty popular,

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but, but was edged out by, well, I said edged out by, still got fungible as fuck got double the

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votes. So, yeah. I thought you said that the we're all going to jail one was one.

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No, you're jumping the gun. You're jumping the gun with a bit of a

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Fuck sorry.

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A bit of rigged election.

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The gun is the goalposts are being moved.

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The gun is that we, we actually don't listen to anything.

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So people, people also overwhelmingly said a, a t-shirt or a hoodie was their desired means of

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merchandise delivery. So we're not doing those, right?

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Yeah. So we were kind of thinking, we were kind of thinking hoodies and stickers.

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And we were thinking of basically rugging everybody and going with, we are all going to

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jail on the revert on the rear of the hoodie, because you got to walk around in this fucking

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thing. And I dump shit coins was hilarious. It's more of a, that's more of a t-shirt vibe.

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This is the thing. As soon as people went hoodie over t-shirt, that changes the vibe because you

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can put a lot of, you can shitpost on t-shirt in a way you can't on a hoodie. A hoodie is like a

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I'm like, you wear that all the time. You have to wear it in all sorts of situations. You can't

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just like put comfortable as fuck on a hoodie. That's not a thing you could wear.

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Why not?

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Yeah. That's not professional at all. Is it?

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Yeah. You can put on a t-shirt.

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It epitomizes the fucking show here.

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What? Fungible as fuck.

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Yeah. Like I said, I'd wear it completely in the style of this show. Why would you want to put

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something like this?

197
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It's a great sticker. It's a great t-shirt. I'm not sure it's a great hoodie.

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So why don't we do a t-shirt as well?

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Hey, we can expand the merch range. I'm not against that.

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Expand the merch range.

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I don't know that putting, we're all going to jail is a good thing to put on a fucking hoodie.

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It's hard to have plausible deniability when you've put it on a fucking show.

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Well, do you know the funny thing is, right? So the we're all going to jail

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joke, I think originated in the flat that we were sharing in Lisbon nearly 18 months ago.

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I can't remember, but I think one of the Stargaze guys said,

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you do realize that if you walk around in a t-shirt that says we're all going to jail,

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that's no longer plausibly deniable. I think it was Jorge or Shane that nixed that idea in the

208
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first place. And then 12 months later, revisit it.

209
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:19,120
Here we are.

210
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:24,560
No, it's because we're more confident in our ability to not go to jail.

211
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,800
Maybe that one should just be a sticker, but it should definitely exist.

212
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:37,520
But I think it's like W-A-G-T-J in the kind of style of Wagme. It's kind of like,

213
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:40,480
it's a satire, right?

214
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,400
But it makes it perfect for a laptop.

215
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:43,840
Yeah.

216
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,640
If you go to Denver, have it in the back and people be like,

217
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,160
that's not Wagme. What the hell is that? Well, let me tell you about this place.

218
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,120
I'm a Juno validator.

219
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,720
I think the Fungible Spark is perfect.

220
00:16:58,480 --> 00:16:58,880
I guess you're not a Juno validator.

221
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:03,600
Fungible Spark is a perfect sticker for a laptop as well. Hey, just for all of the people who

222
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:10,720
are listening and not watching, welcome Jake, the down maximalist, has joined us here in the bottom

223
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:11,040
right.

224
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:11,920
Have you had a haircut?

225
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:12,880
No.

226
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,160
Have you had a haircut in the last two years?

227
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,240
Looking a bit less bushy the last time you were on the show.

228
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:27,280
All right. Well, maybe it's like a 100 year flood happening here.

229
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,360
So it's probably just all the moisture in the air.

230
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,480
Oh, goddamn. Where are you? Are you in your house?

231
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:41,200
I'm in San Francisco. Yeah. And it's like fucking torrential downpours out outside.

232
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:42,160
I hope I don't lose power.

233
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:46,320
Where's the couch I'm going to be sleeping on, bro? What does that look like?

234
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:49,360
Surprisingly, it looks like a floor.

235
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:55,680
It looks like a floor. It looks like a rug in the fucking corner.

236
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,160
It's a bear market. You can't get couches here, you know?

237
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,320
It's a rug in the corner so we can fucking pull it out while I'm sleeping.

238
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:03,920
Fuck you.

239
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:05,760
You can roll up in it.

240
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,000
You do have a table, right? Or something.

241
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:08,960
Yeah, I got a table. Yeah.

242
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:10,720
You got a table.

243
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:11,360
Do you have a sofa?

244
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:12,560
No.

245
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:16,400
No sofa. Chair? Two chairs and a rug?

246
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:16,880
I have chairs.

247
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,160
Two chairs and a table. You could put the table in between the two chairs.

248
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,640
Yeah, I actually have two desks, which is great. You know, gotta have different places.

249
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:25,520
I'll pull it together.

250
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:26,320
Yeah, exactly.

251
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,120
Pull the two desks together. Fouton on top.

252
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:29,680
It'll be great.

253
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,640
Like how close to the chads of Silicon Valley are you?

254
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,640
Can you walk out and shake hands with Bezos?

255
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,440
I mean, Bezos is Seattle.

256
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:40,400
Yeah, Seattle.

257
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,120
I don't know. How the fuck would I know that?

258
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,280
That's like I'm Australian. I have no point in knowing what the hell that is.

259
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,160
It's all just one blob on the map to me with the funny shape.

260
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,360
But anyway, I'm looking forward to the trip. I need to

261
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,600
find, maybe I'll try and find Pupmos and sleep on his couch as well.

262
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,160
I'm like trying to work out where Pupmos' bunker is first.

263
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,520
Yeah, hang out with Pupmos. That'd be so sick.

264
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:17,680
I'm trying to string together some couches to sleep on. So far I've got one which has

265
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,480
already been rubbed, so I feel like it's not going well.

266
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,640
If you mean like crashing on Jabby's couch, then you can find Jabby pretty easily.

267
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,720
He's near lots of roundabouts, which narrows it down.

268
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:33,600
I would have to fight an entire clan of other people to be able to get a place to sleep in that house.

269
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:40,400
Yeah, I guess you'd need to fight at least eight Jabby Juniors, right? Six Jabby Juniors.

270
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,640
You would get a dog to cuddle with though, which would be nice.

271
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:43,920
That's true.

272
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,600
Maybe Winston can just chill.

273
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,440
Yeah, we don't have any dogs around here.

274
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:56,960
Yeah, so 2023 preview episode. Although we are already in 2023.

275
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:02,000
Is this the Reasons to be Chairful podcast?

276
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:05,300
Hell yeah.

277
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:14,320
Yeah, well, Reasons. Was there not a new main coin that came in?

278
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:18,480
I have no idea.

279
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:20,240
That's great news.

280
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,600
That's good news. That's going to pull us out.

281
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,200
Let's sing that from the rooftop.

282
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:36,560
Yeah, I was going to say, what's the thing we're most excited about in 2023, apart from getting promoted to Shift Manager at McDonald's?

283
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:40,400
Who's starting?

284
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,600
I feel like Null's got the energy there. Go on.

285
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:49,520
I missed it. I was reading it.

286
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,600
We will know what Jake's going to say.

287
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,520
Yeah, I don't even have to say it. I don't even know why I'm on the show. You know what I'm going to say.

288
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,720
Okay, Jake, do you want to go first?

289
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,040
I think we could train an AI to be Jake.

290
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,400
Someone could just say it for me. Alex, just say what I'm excited about this year.

291
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:10,480
No, no, no, no.

292
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,600
Well, I'm excited about...

293
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:20,560
Did he really just lag out right there?

294
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:21,840
I thought he just rushed.

295
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:28,480
He just froze. I was like, he just pulled the whip.

296
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,960
I just want to say the word. Everyone knows what's coming.

297
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,280
Jake is excited as shit about...

298
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:37,940
Come on.

299
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:39,600
About, you know...

300
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:40,660
Say the word.

301
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,440
Stargaze. I'm excited as shit about Stargaze. It's going to be great.

302
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:45,940
Fucking down.

303
00:21:45,940 --> 00:21:51,460
Say the cash raise, Bart. Say the cash raise.

304
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:54,740
Just exactly like that scene in the Sims.

305
00:21:56,660 --> 00:21:57,380
Say it.

306
00:21:57,380 --> 00:21:59,380
Yeah, it's the Dallas, man. It's the Dallas.

307
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:02,100
Yeah, the V2 just around the corner, right?

308
00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:02,600
Yeah.

309
00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:04,900
Amidst dreams, right?

310
00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:05,540
I think it's going to be...

311
00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:07,700
New UI, right?

312
00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:09,780
Yeah, all the things. So many things.

313
00:22:11,140 --> 00:22:12,980
Many features, much features. Wow.

314
00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:14,520
It's great.

315
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,680
So much wow. Tell me...

316
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,360
One thing I reckon is going to be cool is the payments.

317
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:26,040
Like the salary, like, you know, whole freaking...

318
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:28,680
But you know, to just manage that.

319
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,640
Yeah, I think it'll be easier and more transparent to see what all the different

320
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,480
dows are doing, what sub-dows are doing.

321
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,920
But I think it's also a good way for us to move forward.

322
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,640
We need vesting payments and stuff.

323
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,160
We need new ways of incentivizing contributors.

324
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:53,960
And I think that we'll start to see all those tools in action over the next year,

325
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,080
which I'm really excited about.

326
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,000
So has much been achieved in the way of like IBC dows?

327
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,020
Yeah.

328
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,800
So I'll give you an example like...

329
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:07,480
Oh, is he lagged out again?

330
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:08,540
No.

331
00:23:08,540 --> 00:23:14,140
So, you know, there's the Chihuahua Dow, right?

332
00:23:16,460 --> 00:23:24,220
Which actually like they IBC'd all of the Dow assets over to Juno and have the treasury on Juno.

333
00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:30,940
Is there going to be like any like functionality in the future or you might even be,

334
00:23:30,940 --> 00:23:39,260
whether you're working on it now, to like interact directly like with that blockchain over like IBC

335
00:23:39,260 --> 00:23:41,340
or something? Or would it be a scenario basically where...

336
00:23:41,980 --> 00:23:47,020
I'm thinking like non-WASM chains being able to do IBC stuff over there?

337
00:23:47,020 --> 00:23:47,520
Yes.

338
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:48,020
Or do you need WASM?

339
00:23:48,020 --> 00:23:51,740
We're trying to build in like support for Interchain accounts.

340
00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:54,220
So we don't need WASM.

341
00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:58,380
But however, the Interchain accounts stuff is kind of a little bit of a mess.

342
00:23:58,380 --> 00:23:59,420
I'm not going to lie.

343
00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:02,700
And there's different versions of IBC and people are using different versions of IBC.

344
00:24:03,420 --> 00:24:07,180
And I think Interchain accounts are cool and have a lot of potential,

345
00:24:07,180 --> 00:24:09,660
but the rollout for them has been kind of a clusterfuck.

346
00:24:09,660 --> 00:24:10,220
I'm not gonna lie.

347
00:24:11,820 --> 00:24:15,740
So Jacob hasn't successfully bumped all of Cosmos yet into the right IBC?

348
00:24:17,260 --> 00:24:21,580
Well, it's also like the Interchain account standard changed a little bit actually too.

349
00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:26,460
But I think it's like pretty like starting to get solidified now.

350
00:24:26,460 --> 00:24:31,180
And yeah, that's something that you're going to be able to do is you're going to be able

351
00:24:31,180 --> 00:24:38,300
to control an account on one chain from a DAO on a chain like Juno, for example.

352
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:40,060
So Interchain accounts is going to be a really big deal.

353
00:24:42,060 --> 00:24:42,860
That will be awesome.

354
00:24:44,380 --> 00:24:48,300
And you've successfully centralized the thing with an indexer, right?

355
00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:49,260
Yes, definitely.

356
00:24:49,820 --> 00:24:51,580
Though the way Noah did it, it's pretty interesting.

357
00:24:51,580 --> 00:24:53,180
It uses the chain as a fallback.

358
00:24:53,180 --> 00:24:56,300
So it's like the indexer doesn't load for whatever reason.

359
00:24:56,300 --> 00:25:00,140
Say it gets blocked by the Australian government.

360
00:25:00,140 --> 00:25:04,220
They don't want you looking at Kangaroo, DAO or whatever.

361
00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:06,300
Whatever the hell it is.

362
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:11,100
You know, then it falls back to querying RPC nodes.

363
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:17,660
And then they'll just censor King nodes RPC and you're gonna lose points.

364
00:25:17,660 --> 00:25:18,220
I don't know.

365
00:25:18,220 --> 00:25:21,740
Count censor King nodes RPC.

366
00:25:23,180 --> 00:25:24,620
What's the payment piece?

367
00:25:24,620 --> 00:25:31,340
Is that actually the way it sounds like where a DAO can hold a set of funds maybe for community

368
00:25:31,340 --> 00:25:32,460
dispersal or something like that?

369
00:25:32,460 --> 00:25:37,500
And then based on state coins, you can approve proposals and those types of things for payment?

370
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:40,620
Is it kind of a centralized structure for that?

371
00:25:41,660 --> 00:25:42,140
Yeah.

372
00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:45,340
So DataAOv2 has a lot of new payroll features.

373
00:25:45,340 --> 00:25:46,300
Which are really cool.

374
00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:49,900
So you can vote to pay someone like a vesting amount.

375
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:54,140
There's a lot of different kind of configurations you can do there.

376
00:25:54,140 --> 00:26:00,220
I mean, you can already vote to like, send someone money.

377
00:26:00,220 --> 00:26:03,980
So you could send someone Juno or send someone USDC from your DAO treasury.

378
00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:05,660
You can vote on those kinds of things.

379
00:26:05,660 --> 00:26:09,820
But we're making it also so you can vote to instantiate these kind of vesting contracts.

380
00:26:09,820 --> 00:26:16,300
We also have our sort of coordinate style retroactive rewards system that we actually

381
00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:17,340
use in Doudou.

382
00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:21,740
So at the end of every month, everyone writes down what their contributions were.

383
00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:28,460
And we vote as a DAO on how valuable we thought those contributions were.

384
00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:32,780
And then there's a set amount of tokens that goes out every month to contributors based

385
00:26:32,780 --> 00:26:34,300
on how people voted.

386
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:37,980
And that achieves actually the same amount of money that you would get from a DAO.

387
00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:40,540
So it's like, hey, what the fuck have people been doing?

388
00:26:40,540 --> 00:26:41,020
You know?

389
00:26:41,020 --> 00:26:41,540
Yeah.

390
00:26:41,540 --> 00:26:48,780
And second of all, I think it's kind of like, you know, people are getting compensated based

391
00:26:48,780 --> 00:26:54,700
more on what they did versus like, here's this payment that you just get up front.

392
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:58,060
And a lot of times, you know, you can't get that much money.

393
00:26:58,060 --> 00:26:59,260
So you have to be able to get it.

394
00:26:59,260 --> 00:27:00,060
You can't get it.

395
00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:00,700
You can't get it.

396
00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:01,580
And then you can get it.

397
00:27:01,580 --> 00:27:02,300
And then you can get it.

398
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:03,100
And then you can get it.

399
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:04,380
And then you can get it.

400
00:27:04,380 --> 00:27:05,420
And then you can get it.

401
00:27:05,420 --> 00:27:05,900
And then you get it.

402
00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:10,620
You get up front, and a lot of times, you know, people don't follow through for whatever

403
00:27:10,620 --> 00:27:11,420
reasons.

404
00:27:11,420 --> 00:27:16,140
It's a good way to keep people accountable because you're only getting sort of paid

405
00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:17,820
retroactively for what you did.

406
00:27:17,820 --> 00:27:18,380
It's not like...

407
00:27:19,740 --> 00:27:21,740
So I think that's going to be a really interesting thing.

408
00:27:21,740 --> 00:27:24,380
You know, when it comes to like payroll and all these things, I don't think there's like

409
00:27:24,380 --> 00:27:25,820
one right solution.

410
00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:27,500
There's no one size fits all.

411
00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:33,260
Everyone's going to want every like sub DAO or different DAOs are going to like want different

412
00:27:33,260 --> 00:27:36,540
ways of kind of doing compensation.

413
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:41,820
So we do have staking actions as well.

414
00:27:41,820 --> 00:27:45,980
So you like DAOs can delegate to validators, which I think will be really interesting.

415
00:27:47,580 --> 00:27:50,140
And we have off the UI support, which is also going to be great.

416
00:27:50,140 --> 00:27:56,220
So delegation style will be able to like use off the to manage delegations.

417
00:27:56,220 --> 00:28:03,980
Was that was that delegations one basically put in there for the delegations to begin

418
00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:07,580
with that like the functionality required for that?

419
00:28:07,580 --> 00:28:10,940
Actually, I've always thought that Aussie is really fucking cool.

420
00:28:10,940 --> 00:28:13,500
And yet there's no UI for normies to use it at all.

421
00:28:14,060 --> 00:28:17,260
Because like, there's nothing in your Kepler wallet.

422
00:28:17,260 --> 00:28:21,980
There's a few like things like yield most or like a few apps that like let you auto

423
00:28:21,980 --> 00:28:23,100
compound staking rewards.

424
00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:24,060
But that's it.

425
00:28:24,060 --> 00:28:26,540
There's no other like Aussie UI.

426
00:28:26,540 --> 00:28:29,900
And it's kind of a shame because it's one of the coolest features in the cosmos.

427
00:28:31,820 --> 00:28:38,380
And so like, we're really hoping like with data VT to like have some of the first like

428
00:28:38,380 --> 00:28:39,180
Aussie UI.

429
00:28:41,340 --> 00:28:48,540
And I'm stoked to get people actually doing things with Aussie, aside from just

430
00:28:50,940 --> 00:28:52,380
auto-compound staking rewards.

431
00:28:52,380 --> 00:28:57,260
It's is that only for DAO related activities or that will have other functionality like

432
00:28:57,260 --> 00:28:59,580
governance and those types of things that might be outside the DAO?

433
00:29:01,180 --> 00:29:01,680
Yes.

434
00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:04,060
I mean, we have it pretty generalized.

435
00:29:04,060 --> 00:29:08,860
So it's not just for staking rewards.

436
00:29:09,820 --> 00:29:15,660
And one of the there's a secret page in data VT if you go to like when it launches go to

437
00:29:15,660 --> 00:29:23,580
slash wallet and you can use the same UI for like composing actions and proposals to like

438
00:29:23,580 --> 00:29:25,980
just use like do individual transactions.

439
00:29:25,980 --> 00:29:31,420
So you can use a UI to like instantiate a smart contract or use the UI to like, you

440
00:29:31,420 --> 00:29:35,900
know, all those actions like when you make a proposal, you can just use those like with

441
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:37,100
your standalone wallet.

442
00:29:37,100 --> 00:29:38,220
You don't have to do it as a DAO.

443
00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:42,300
So I think that'll be really helpful for a lot of people that want to use features like

444
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:47,260
Aussie or like Mint-NFTs or like do all these like random things.

445
00:29:47,260 --> 00:29:49,180
They don't necessarily want to do it as a DAO.

446
00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:51,420
They could also make a DAO with just one person in it.

447
00:29:51,420 --> 00:29:52,380
You know, that could be.

448
00:29:53,020 --> 00:29:53,980
Right, right.

449
00:29:53,980 --> 00:29:54,540
Yep.

450
00:29:54,540 --> 00:29:55,180
That could be fun.

451
00:29:57,820 --> 00:29:58,320
Cool.

452
00:29:58,700 --> 00:29:59,180
Yeah.

453
00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:00,060
The one-man DAO.

454
00:30:01,020 --> 00:30:03,660
It's kind of the logical conclusion, isn't it?

455
00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:10,780
In America, you can be a corporation of one person and therefore on the internet, you

456
00:30:10,780 --> 00:30:12,460
could be a DAO of one person.

457
00:30:12,460 --> 00:30:12,960
Yeah.

458
00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:14,240
Kind of.

459
00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:19,020
Well, I guess I mean, yeah, you can be a limited company in most jurisdictions with one person,

460
00:30:19,020 --> 00:30:21,740
but the corporation is a stranger one, isn't it?

461
00:30:21,740 --> 00:30:27,180
Because you've got like the corporation is like an embodiment of a abstract entity as

462
00:30:27,180 --> 00:30:28,460
if it was a person.

463
00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:31,740
And then as soon as it's like tiny again, you're like, wait, hang on a minute.

464
00:30:32,460 --> 00:30:33,740
But yeah.

465
00:30:33,740 --> 00:30:45,100
So how's like DAO been affected by what's been happening recently?

466
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:50,700
Like, because I know I don't really dip in the discord anymore because I'm too busy with

467
00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:52,300
about a hundred different other things.

468
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:58,460
But like when I have done it seemed like, you know, kind of pretty active and busy despite

469
00:30:58,460 --> 00:30:59,820
everything that's going on.

470
00:30:59,820 --> 00:31:00,320
Yeah.

471
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,360
But yeah, that was pretty great.

472
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:06,160
I don't know.

473
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,320
We have like a really core group of contributors.

474
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,000
It's like really motivated to work on it.

475
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:18,320
And they're, you know, I think everyone would like, you know, for the market to go up, but

476
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:25,200
we're all surviving, you know, and that's kind of just like, yeah, the mood.

477
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,960
Everyone's really, really excited about like launching new stuff.

478
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,320
And I feel, I feel like my mind sounds really good.

479
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,760
I think we maybe lost like a couple, so we used to have like a fuck ton of contributors.

480
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,440
And now we've kind of lost some of like the outside contributors, not the like markets

481
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:42,240
like down 90%.

482
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:49,040
But like the core, the like our best contributors, our core contributors are all still like super

483
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,000
involved.

484
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,360
So that's what we really need.

485
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,080
Who is the main core contributors?

486
00:31:54,080 --> 00:32:01,120
I know there's like Noah and Zeke and obviously yourself, like who are the other main guys

487
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,040
that, and girls?

488
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:03,540
Yeah.

489
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,000
Case Organic is a really great contributor to Doudou.

490
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,680
That's another amazing, amazing person.

491
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,120
Give them a follow on Twitter.

492
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:21,200
Elsehow or my friend Nick is also a like really regular contributor to Doudou.

493
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,640
Janita or Blue Note on, I think Blue Note on Twitter.

494
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:24,960
I don't know.

495
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,640
I have to check where Twitter handle is, but she also is like a very regular contributor

496
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:31,280
to Doudou.

497
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:36,640
And then there's kind of like the long tail of like others as well, like people that just

498
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:42,320
do like surprisingly, like actually Net-a-Dow, like a lot of the Net-a-Dow folks have been

499
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,400
like, like really good contributors.

500
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,160
They've like come in and like they test a lot of stuff.

501
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,080
Like one of their members, Whiskey, has like actually written some contracts and things

502
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:59,040
and like has been doing some UI work on some like features that are going to launch shortly

503
00:32:59,040 --> 00:32:59,840
after V2.

504
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:01,840
So like V like 2.1 or whatever.

505
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:11,360
And I would occasionally drop in to like when people are doing like coding with the shared

506
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,880
screen and then just annoy them.

507
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:14,400
That's my contribution.

508
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,440
Thanks for helping the work get done.

509
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,000
No, thanks for the contribution.

510
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,520
Thanks for keeping everybody on task.

511
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,840
Now we're in this, trying to like fix some UI.

512
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:29,600
This is why.

513
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:31,520
I'd be like, what's this?

514
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:32,320
What does that do?

515
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:33,280
Why do you keep moving that?

516
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:35,600
What are you typing?

517
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:38,560
How would I do this other thing?

518
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:46,480
Can you get me an API so I can like get my transactions for taxes this year, please?

519
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:47,440
Yeah, exactly.

520
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:48,640
I've been bugging everyone.

521
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,320
I'm like, can I have access to your API?

522
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,120
Can I have access to your API?

523
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:51,840
Who has a full note?

524
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,920
Can this export a CSV?

525
00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:00,000
Yeah, we do actually have, we're going to work on making it like available somehow.

526
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:06,800
But we do actually have like a full index of the entire Juno chain, which is exciting.

527
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:15,360
And so I actually, because I legit am trying to like figure out how to get all of my transactions.

528
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:15,680
Right.

529
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:28,880
And who was it in the discord that suggests, oh, I was Indigo from Artifact.

530
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,560
He's like, get a like, hire a scraper.

531
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:33,360
And I was like, what?

532
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,000
And then so I started looking on Fiverr.

533
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,600
And there's like all of these people who just scrape shit for like 30 bucks.

534
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,360
So could be in the market for a scraper.

535
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,160
Like literally go to Mint Scan, go to your thing and just like start pulling transactions out?

536
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,280
Yeah, just like right crawler bots to go like hit Mint Scan and then just crawl and

537
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,320
get all the info out of it.

538
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:05,840
Because Mint Scan actually shows the JSON in the transactions page.

539
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,720
You can basically just scrape the JSON for every single transaction so you can get the messages.

540
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,720
It'd be really nice if Mint Scan just had an API too.

541
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,360
It'd be really nice if Mint Scan just had fucking export to CSV.

542
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:25,760
Like it can't be much like, I don't know if they're not doing it because it'd just be so hard on their API.

543
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,520
It should be like a premium feature.

544
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:28,320
Yeah.

545
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:29,520
Yeah.

546
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,120
Like pay five bucks, get a CSV.

547
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:31,680
Yeah, exactly.

548
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:33,600
Yeah.

549
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,920
Like three minutes again, it would be.

550
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:36,240
Yeah.

551
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:37,840
That would save a lot of time.

552
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,080
That would save a fucking lot of time.

553
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:40,480
Yeah.

554
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,760
Like they've literally got the entire fucking Cosmos indexed.

555
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,760
Like I would pay a hundred Juno to get like the CSV for God's sake.

556
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:51,600
Or five bucks.

557
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:52,800
Yeah.

558
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,040
I mean, I would rather pay five bucks than a hundred Juno.

559
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,400
Although wait, yeah.

560
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:57,760
I mean, they are still slightly different.

561
00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,280
They're different.

562
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:04,480
Like for me, for me to get that transaction is going to cost like for me to do it myself

563
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,320
would be like thousands of dollars worth of labor for me to get someone else to do.

564
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,360
It's going to probably cost me several hundred dollars anyway.

565
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:19,520
So, and I would, you know, for all the different wallets, I mean, if I, if I'm getting someone

566
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,440
to do it, I can't see myself getting out of it for less than a thousand bucks.

567
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:25,360
Yeah.

568
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,840
This is probably, probably about the measure of it.

569
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:33,200
Maybe more actually, I think it took five days to get, or three days or something like that,

570
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,960
to get something, to get reasonable strategy working for the first time

571
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,680
we had to do that for our quarterly tax return.

572
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,120
So Rama says save time and money.

573
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:45,120
Don't do taxes.

574
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:46,320
I love it.

575
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,800
Who wants the, we're going to jail hoodie.

576
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:53,360
Rama's like,

577
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,240
I actually do really want that hoodie. I really want that. I would have fucking wear that.

578
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,440
I remember that meme. That meme was so good.

579
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:06,400
We'll do the hoodies.

580
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:08,800
We'll do the hoodies. It's going to happen.

581
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:14,240
Do we need, do we need like some sort of design person or?

582
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:14,400
Yes.

583
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,360
Oh, he's going to have text.

584
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:16,400
Both.

585
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:18,800
We talked about this.

586
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,800
Rama's put his hand up for design.

587
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:22,400
We talked about this.

588
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,880
I don't know Rama. I don't want a fucking raccoon.

589
00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:28,240
Yeah. We talked about this in the, in the group chat.

590
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,280
There's the design. I thought we just, the group chat was more about just doing the

591
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,560
flowery linen shirt version with, with cursive text.

592
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,000
Look up some good stuff.

593
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,600
Oh, I'm sure that sounds great.

594
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,040
I missed the Hawaiian shirt part.

595
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:43,280
Yeah.

596
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:48,320
I mean, I was joking about that, but now I realized I've unleashed, I've uncorked the bottle.

597
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:54,320
Well, the problem with the problem with like a floral or whatever design is that it kind of

598
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,000
obscures the text.

599
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,680
So thinking ahead, man.

600
00:37:59,760 --> 00:37:59,920
Yeah.

601
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:00,720
We'll come up with some options.

602
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:02,000
We'll come up with some.

603
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,240
They speak here as well. Okay. So, but, but guiding,

604
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,520
guiding us back onto 2023.

605
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:12,320
My start now.

606
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:13,120
And the cosmos.

607
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:15,280
Yeah.

608
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:15,520
Yeah.

609
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:16,320
All right. Yeah.

610
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:17,600
Go ahead, please.

611
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,160
So we started there with Jake.

612
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,120
The answer was predictably because with D.

613
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:25,360
Yeah.

614
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:28,400
Also mesh security is going to be sick.

615
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,400
There was actually a question in the chat on whether, on where, where people are at with mesh

616
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,160
security, which last time I checked, we're still working prototype.

617
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,240
Yeah. So we're working prototype. The prototype has like come a long way.

618
00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:49,040
But so like we've actually been talking a lot with the osmosis team and osmosis grants program is

619
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,200
providing a lot of funding for mesh security work, which is awesome.

620
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,640
So that's really going to kick off this year.

621
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:04,480
We have like Ethan and confio team is going to be like contributing a lot of stuff.

622
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,400
We have cosmology.

623
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,800
We're making this beautiful UI for it as well.

624
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:16,960
Because, you know, what good is like this complex cross staking protocol if you don't have the UI to

625
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,160
use it for normies.

626
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,560
Like, so that's like going to be part of it.

627
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,800
So like kind of the timeline is like Q1.

628
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:28,000
We're going to have like more things working on test nets, like Juno Osmo test net.

629
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:35,040
We're going to have like it also this really long, long architecture document written up about it.

630
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,840
A lot of people were like rushing to like, you know, mesh security came out and then all these

631
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,400
people like kind of like piled on, they were like doing their whole takes in this analysis on it.

632
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,120
And it's like, it's like, guys, we don't even have like a full like written up version of it.

633
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,600
You're just kind of like making up what mesh security is in your head.

634
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:57,840
And so, yeah, we're going to have Q1 test nets and, you know, kind of like this really nice

635
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:04,800
architecture doc with Q2, really looking to, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like,

636
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:13,280
you test in prod probably like just one way, like with like a low market cap chain, like,

637
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:21,200
I don't know, like Juno Joe or like Juno Wawa or whatever, whoever is down but like

638
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,520
do it like with real tokens.

639
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,960
And then after we've kind of like done that for a while and

640
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:32,320
gone through any audits or whatever, we want to, we're going to plan to deploy it Q3

641
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,820
with like Gino Osmo and maybe like some other chains as well.

642
00:40:36,820 --> 00:40:39,260
Whoever wants to join the Interchain Alliance

643
00:40:39,260 --> 00:40:40,980
or the Interchain Federation

644
00:40:40,980 --> 00:40:43,620
or whatever the fuck we're gonna call it.

645
00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:45,140
What would that look like as a validator?

646
00:40:45,140 --> 00:40:47,020
Is it a modified binary or is it intended to be?

647
00:40:47,020 --> 00:40:48,780
Yeah, this is the great thing about mesh security

648
00:40:48,780 --> 00:40:50,580
is you don't have to do any extra work as a validator.

649
00:40:50,580 --> 00:40:52,080
You just validate your chains.

650
00:40:53,980 --> 00:40:54,820
Well, that sounds nice.

651
00:40:54,820 --> 00:40:58,660
What's the benefit for validators to be using it?

652
00:40:58,660 --> 00:40:59,620
You don't have to do anything.

653
00:40:59,620 --> 00:41:00,860
You like, you-

654
00:41:00,860 --> 00:41:01,700
Just happens.

655
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:03,320
It just happens.

656
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:04,160
You want to-

657
00:41:05,140 --> 00:41:06,360
Well, what's the downside?

658
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,340
What are the downsides and upsides, right?

659
00:41:08,340 --> 00:41:12,060
I think it just makes no change to your life as a validator.

660
00:41:12,060 --> 00:41:13,560
Unlike ICS where you have to worry

661
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,700
about all this extra bullshit and oh, like,

662
00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:17,380
oh fuck, I wanna run the Adam chain now.

663
00:41:17,380 --> 00:41:20,140
I have to run like five different fucking chains.

664
00:41:20,140 --> 00:41:25,140
And yeah, I just really don't think that that's,

665
00:41:25,660 --> 00:41:27,540
it's been like hyped for so long.

666
00:41:27,540 --> 00:41:29,700
And I feel like anytime something like Interchain security

667
00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:31,820
is like hyped for so long without actually shipping,

668
00:41:31,820 --> 00:41:34,580
like the reality is inevitably gonna be disappointing.

669
00:41:34,580 --> 00:41:38,340
And I kind of, I guess this is optimism.

670
00:41:38,340 --> 00:41:39,980
Anyway, I'm optimistic about mesh security.

671
00:41:39,980 --> 00:41:41,820
I think it's gonna work out a lot better.

672
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:44,980
Yeah.

673
00:41:44,980 --> 00:41:47,620
But it just like, I mean, it is a little bit of the,

674
00:41:49,660 --> 00:41:53,980
the ICS thing is a little bit like the relay thing

675
00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:56,380
where there are certain things where you have to run

676
00:41:56,380 --> 00:41:59,580
additional software that are just completely intractable.

677
00:41:59,580 --> 00:42:01,020
Like they should be separate software

678
00:42:01,020 --> 00:42:02,260
because they are doing something

679
00:42:02,260 --> 00:42:04,060
like fundamentally different.

680
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:06,700
And then there are some things where you're like,

681
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:09,860
is this complexity worth the trade off?

682
00:42:09,860 --> 00:42:11,700
Like that's the big one on oracles

683
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:14,500
that I think I'm still not, you know,

684
00:42:15,380 --> 00:42:18,820
there are obviously reasons why a lot of oracle use cases

685
00:42:18,820 --> 00:42:21,140
can't be done in a smart contract context.

686
00:42:22,060 --> 00:42:24,460
But I don't know, obviously we had,

687
00:42:24,460 --> 00:42:27,000
we've had the noise podcasts on here.

688
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,820
And obviously their approach to how they do randomness

689
00:42:28,820 --> 00:42:30,020
and stuff is really, really interesting

690
00:42:30,020 --> 00:42:31,660
and being able to do it with just smart contracts

691
00:42:31,660 --> 00:42:32,500
is really, really cool.

692
00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:37,140
And there, I think you're gonna see increasing,

693
00:42:37,140 --> 00:42:38,980
I don't know, probably there's gonna be more use cases

694
00:42:38,980 --> 00:42:40,500
like that that come along where people figure out

695
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:42,300
a way of doing them that don't involve

696
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:44,180
running additional software on top of

697
00:42:45,180 --> 00:42:49,660
what validates have to do anyway, because yeah,

698
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:54,660
I just don't see that the future is a more complicated world

699
00:42:55,860 --> 00:42:57,420
for the majority of validators.

700
00:42:57,420 --> 00:43:00,500
The future has to be more validators

701
00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:03,420
running less complicated software, right?

702
00:43:03,420 --> 00:43:05,180
Yeah, I think that that's the future.

703
00:43:05,180 --> 00:43:07,740
More validators running less complicated software.

704
00:43:07,740 --> 00:43:10,180
And then they can really focus on, you know,

705
00:43:10,180 --> 00:43:13,060
like scaling the, it's complicated enough to deal with

706
00:43:13,060 --> 00:43:16,300
like all the different aspects and all the different storage

707
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:19,020
and all the different chains and all the different,

708
00:43:19,020 --> 00:43:21,060
like other services you might provide on top,

709
00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:23,780
like RPC nodes and load balancing of RPC nodes.

710
00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:26,120
And like all this stuff is really complicated.

711
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:31,120
And like anything extra, like it's just, yeah,

712
00:43:31,940 --> 00:43:32,900
kind of noise to me.

713
00:43:32,900 --> 00:43:34,660
And so actually this is one of the other things

714
00:43:34,660 --> 00:43:37,060
I'm really optimistic for in 2023.

715
00:43:37,060 --> 00:43:40,740
And I'm sure the fray, like, you know,

716
00:43:40,740 --> 00:43:42,940
you're also really excited about this is like,

717
00:43:42,940 --> 00:43:45,020
I'm really excited about like the movement around,

718
00:43:45,020 --> 00:43:48,860
it's kind of growing around CWSDK or Cosmos SDK.

719
00:43:48,860 --> 00:43:52,540
Just like get rid of like Cosmos SDK.

720
00:43:52,540 --> 00:43:57,220
Thank you for everything you provided to like the inner chain,

721
00:43:57,220 --> 00:44:01,180
but like everything has its time and it kind of sucks.

722
00:44:01,180 --> 00:44:06,180
And I think the, there's a lot of potential to,

723
00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:09,100
and I think I'm really hoping that by like the end

724
00:44:09,100 --> 00:44:14,100
of this year, the progress on like CWSDK is just gonna,

725
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,500
it's gonna be like starting to look really exciting.

726
00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:18,820
I don't know what the first chain is gonna be

727
00:44:18,820 --> 00:44:20,660
or when that's gonna happen.

728
00:44:20,660 --> 00:44:22,620
I think it's way too early to say,

729
00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:27,620
but I think it's kind of the right move,

730
00:44:28,420 --> 00:44:30,140
just like these EVM chains.

731
00:44:30,140 --> 00:44:31,700
A lot of them are just EVM chains.

732
00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:33,380
And it's like, let's just make

733
00:44:33,380 --> 00:44:36,460
a awesome Wasm virtual machine.

734
00:44:36,460 --> 00:44:41,120
And that could just power so many different use cases.

735
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:42,620
Yeah, well, I mean, the composable FI1

736
00:44:42,620 --> 00:44:44,860
is a good step in the right direction in that case,

737
00:44:44,860 --> 00:44:47,260
like a general purpose Cosmos and VM.

738
00:44:47,260 --> 00:44:48,540
Yeah.

739
00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:50,460
I mean, it's almost kind of funny

740
00:44:50,460 --> 00:44:51,380
it's come out when it has,

741
00:44:51,380 --> 00:44:54,620
because I think I do wonder if that had been out

742
00:44:54,620 --> 00:44:58,160
and stable when the CWSDK effort started,

743
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,220
whether that development effort would have gone

744
00:45:01,220 --> 00:45:03,380
in a slightly different direction.

745
00:45:03,380 --> 00:45:05,420
It's hard to say, because it's been a little while

746
00:45:05,420 --> 00:45:06,500
since I've looked at the,

747
00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:08,980
I've been following on the chat,

748
00:45:08,980 --> 00:45:11,020
but it's been a little while

749
00:45:11,020 --> 00:45:12,820
since I've tried to contribute anything to it.

750
00:45:12,820 --> 00:45:14,620
So I'm probably a bit out of date,

751
00:45:14,620 --> 00:45:18,920
but it does seem like the more general

752
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,260
and the more abstract to that can be the better

753
00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:23,060
for that project's longevity.

754
00:45:24,940 --> 00:45:26,740
And also just like a lot of the problems,

755
00:45:26,740 --> 00:45:28,740
a lot of the problems which are solved

756
00:45:28,740 --> 00:45:33,020
by additional Wasm bindings or by things like T-grade,

757
00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:37,020
if everything's a contract,

758
00:45:37,020 --> 00:45:40,460
you actually just don't have that problem anyway,

759
00:45:40,460 --> 00:45:43,100
because there's no difference between native

760
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:46,060
and contract execution layer,

761
00:45:46,060 --> 00:45:51,060
which obviously has a security implication,

762
00:45:52,540 --> 00:45:54,940
which isn't super cool,

763
00:45:54,940 --> 00:45:57,840
but it does simplify a lot of things

764
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,580
about the application execution environment, right?

765
00:46:01,740 --> 00:46:02,580
Yeah, totally.

766
00:46:02,580 --> 00:46:05,560
I think it just simplifies things.

767
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,060
I think if you like, everything is complex enough,

768
00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:12,140
so whenever you can simplify things in code,

769
00:46:12,140 --> 00:46:13,360
it's actually better.

770
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,080
One of the things I like about smart contracts,

771
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,600
as opposed to this kind of monolithic SDK,

772
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,560
Ruby on Rails thing we've built,

773
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,000
is that smart contracts are really isolated

774
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:26,960
little bits of logic,

775
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,600
and it's easy to test and reason about them.

776
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,800
And I feel like the Cosmos SDK code is too much of this,

777
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,240
it's like spaghetti.

778
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:38,840
Each module is fucking wired into all these other modules

779
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,600
at the lowest level, and it's a nightmare.

780
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,740
Well, the way the capability stuff works,

781
00:46:46,740 --> 00:46:49,840
where it's all just dependency injection all the way down,

782
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,440
it's like, well, it's dependency injection,

783
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,440
but it's kind of not really called that.

784
00:46:57,240 --> 00:47:00,760
This is the thing, I'm trying to be like,

785
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,320
there's a huge amount of effort

786
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,320
by some very, very clever people on this.

787
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,640
There's a lot of rewriting work going down.

788
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,160
I get all of that, I recognize all of that,

789
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,160
and it's very easy to criticize from the sidelines.

790
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,960
So I am kind of aware of all of that.

791
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,000
But at the same time, it is also,

792
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,080
there are a lot of things about the structure

793
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,880
of the application that don't feel

794
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,860
like modern application architecture,

795
00:47:26,860 --> 00:47:31,440
in the way that smart contracts are much more close

796
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:32,960
to where the rest of the industry is,

797
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,800
which is Kubernetes, throw some Docker containers at it,

798
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:40,400
black boxes that you reason about individually,

799
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,240
and then you move on.

800
00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:43,840
Lambda execution runtimes,

801
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,440
where you literally just write 30 lines of code,

802
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,640
write your 80 different pieces of functionality,

803
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,680
throw them at AWS, GCP, whatever,

804
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,040
there's your application.

805
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:55,960
That's kind of where the rest of the industry is,

806
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,640
that's where the interesting state-of-the-art applications

807
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:05,640
are, and the closer you are to that

808
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:06,840
rather than Ruby on Rails,

809
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,840
which is a much older sort of paradigm,

810
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:16,100
probably the better in terms of scalable architecture, right?

811
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,300
Yeah, anyway, that's something I'm really optimistic

812
00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:26,240
for this year, is the continued development of Cosmosm,

813
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:29,320
and just really, I think,

814
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,640
asking some of the hard problems about the SDK,

815
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,080
and looking at ways we can really take

816
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:36,800
what I think are the best things about Cosmos,

817
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,000
like what's the best thing about Cosmos?

818
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,720
I think it's unquestionably, obviously,

819
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:42,400
obviously is the best thing about Cosmos,

820
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:43,800
if I had to pick one thing.

821
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,440
And then I think the second thing would be,

822
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,440
I really do think Cosmosm is the best

823
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,440
smart contract framework at the moment.

824
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,120
And it could get even better,

825
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,800
and I think it's really great that we're seeing

826
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,600
this kind of cross-chain adoption of Cosmosm.

827
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,840
Even there's an avalanche project

828
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,520
that's looking at adding support for Cosmosm,

829
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:11,200
which is pretty sick.

830
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,100
And then, of course, Polkadot and Composable Finance.

831
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,360
The traction around Cosmosm is really good,

832
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,200
and it's still early days,

833
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:26,600
and there's not that many Cosmosm developers,

834
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,760
but I think there will increasingly be more and more of them.

835
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,120
And let's not forget, because it's Wasm,

836
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:34,560
because it's WebAssembly,

837
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,600
we can also add support for other languages too.

838
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:41,280
So TypeScript, or a technical assembly script,

839
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:46,280
or Golang, or, you know.

840
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:48,480
And there's gonna be work to be done.

841
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,360
There's actually a team that's already working

842
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,120
on some of these things.

843
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,080
So that'll be exciting to see as well,

844
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:58,120
kind of going into the new year,

845
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,120
it's just how Cosmosm continues to evolve,

846
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,280
and how best practices continue to be figured out.

847
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,840
And I think things like CWSDK are really important,

848
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,840
because if we can isolate Cosmosm as a VM

849
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,960
from the rest of the Cosmos SDK,

850
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,920
we could really get some huge performance improvements.

851
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:23,560
Thanks. Yeah.

852
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:27,640
Well, also just the CWSDK is built on a user's Merck,

853
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,600
no mix implementation of the Merckle storage,

854
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,200
and that's based on RocksDB,

855
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,160
so it's faster than IAVL, like when you benchmark it.

856
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,360
So like right there, you've got it for free.

857
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,120
And also because it's Rust, like,

858
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,240
and well, okay, not just because it's Rust,

859
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:52,240
but also because of the way it's relying on other libraries

860
00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:55,000
for specific things and things in the standard library.

861
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,480
It feels a lot less risky, like,

862
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:04,480
so the implementation is obviously in no mix,

863
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:10,120
it's Merck, great, but like I did quite a bit

864
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,840
of looking into it to try and get my head around

865
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,640
how that will fit together as part of like

866
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,080
the early CWSDK stuff.

867
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:18,600
Other people actually did the big brain stuff,

868
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,600
obviously MapM, MapBell, and Larry did the actual

869
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:23,880
implementation for that stuff,

870
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:28,640
but what's interesting about that implementation

871
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,200
versus the SDK implementation for that stuff is how much,

872
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:33,640
I mean, I'm biased, right?

873
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,200
I understand Rust better, it suits my mindset better,

874
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,200
but like how much easier it is to read that code base

875
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,040
for what it's doing, like the iterators

876
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,080
and all that kind of stuff versus, you know,

877
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,560
what's in the SDK and the kind of the Go version.

878
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,880
But yeah, it would be a bit of a shame

879
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,440
to abandon the Rust part, I think,

880
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,320
as more languages come out, because I think that

881
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,480
there is this like sweet spot with Rust being,

882
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,200
having like a kind of close to research language

883
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,520
level compiler, but still being like quite easy to pick up

884
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,080
for the average developer.

885
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:08,320
So what, because one of the other things

886
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,400
that I've been looking into recently is like Move,

887
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,880
and you know, kind of Aptos and SWE,

888
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,000
smart contract framework, and they have, you know,

889
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,400
formal verification and all that stuff built in.

890
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:24,280
But although it's not that complicated

891
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:25,840
to work with those languages,

892
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,680
I do look at those a little bit,

893
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,480
and I get a little bit of the same feeling that I got

894
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,040
when I first was introduced to something like Haskell,

895
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,040
which is like, oh yeah, this is clever.

896
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,120
Yes, this actually solves problems that people have

897
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:41,600
if they get their head around it.

898
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,880
And yes, it probably is better than the alternative,

899
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:49,880
but as we know, NASA use Haskell for making sure,

900
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,640
you know, space probes don't crash.

901
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:55,360
But for the average developer, they just go,

902
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,120
oh, I just take the bugs.

903
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,960
I'll just, I can't be bothered to learn this.

904
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:02,520
And I wonder if cause and reason with Rust

905
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,520
sits in the sweet spot where people can be bothered

906
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,760
to learn it, and they get some of the benefits

907
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:08,000
of the safety and all that kind of thing

908
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,280
that Rust just sort of brings out of the box,

909
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,880
but it doesn't have that extra layer of,

910
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:17,880
oh, okay, let's go engage in the brain time.

911
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,720
I do think it's kind of like a sweet spot.

912
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:25,120
And it's funny you mentioned formal verification.

913
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,400
I was actually just talking with Zeke yesterday

914
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,320
about how we can improve cosmolism testing

915
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,680
and actually add some very formal verification

916
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,400
like kind of features to it,

917
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,480
like kind of inspired by like TLA plus

918
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,640
and all this kind of stuff.

919
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,200
And I think we've got a really good plan for it.

920
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,200
And we're gonna try to like introduce

921
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:49,560
like this new testing framework

922
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,920
on one of the future like smart contracts we work on.

923
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:54,720
So I think Rust does kind of hit,

924
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:57,200
sit in the sweet spot where it's very safe

925
00:53:58,360 --> 00:53:59,640
and it's very powerful.

926
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:01,920
And yet it's about as user friendly as you can get

927
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,160
for something that's like so safe and powerful.

928
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,440
I also think Wasm WebAssembly is also

929
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,400
in this kind of sweet spot of like,

930
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:10,840
it's really, really performant,

931
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:15,840
like a lot more performant than like the EVM for example.

932
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:16,840
But at the same time,

933
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,760
like a lot of different things compile to it.

934
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:21,440
Like if you're in Solana,

935
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,520
you know, they use like Berkeley packet filters,

936
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,320
a lot less libraries compile to that.

937
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,400
So that's gonna like really restrict

938
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,280
like the kinds of things that you can do

939
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,120
and sort of like external software packages you could use.

940
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,560
So like Wasm is this thing that's like very, very performant.

941
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:39,560
It's really, really fast.

942
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,040
A lot of languages compile to it, which is also great.

943
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:43,720
I think it's good to give people options.

944
00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:46,720
Like sure, if you're making like a DeFi protocol

945
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:48,840
that's gonna control like a billion dollars,

946
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,720
probably should write that in a language like Rust

947
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:53,120
or something like Scala or, you know,

948
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,600
like something that has a really strong type system

949
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,600
and the compiler will scream at you

950
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,680
if you like do anything wrong.

951
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:01,520
But if you're just-

952
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:02,360
I think you'd probably Rust,

953
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:03,440
Rust I have a Scala at this point

954
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,800
cause Scala is still pretty fucking permissive.

955
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,520
Yeah, anyway, you read it in like a language

956
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:10,480
that is like well-suited towards that thing.

957
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,720
But if you're just like working on like a game or whatever,

958
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:14,720
it's like fine.

959
00:55:14,720 --> 00:55:18,720
Like I think we should give developers tools to,

960
00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:21,480
you know, depending on like how crazy

961
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,120
the thing they're trying to make is.

962
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:27,520
Yeah.

963
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:29,160
Yeah.

964
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,040
So the question is like with

965
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,360
on kind of utility and stuff that's coming out this year,

966
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,960
like we've talked to several of the most recent episodes

967
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:42,960
about like, you know, when we see more better use cases

968
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,200
and you know, you did a talk recently, didn't you?

969
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:51,200
A case at the, at Elshouse unit.

970
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,880
What's the correct term in academia?

971
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:55,720
Department?

972
00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:57,560
Yeah, is it, Brayden?

973
00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,400
Yeah, it's like a,

974
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,200
Department? Department?

975
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:02,040
It was at Berkeley.

976
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,320
It was, yeah, the center for long-term cybersecurity.

977
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,120
I don't know, like whatever.

978
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,520
Yeah, so department, I guess, right?

979
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,480
And a lot of this discussion is around like, you know,

980
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,720
the balance between where we are now and crypto utility

981
00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:17,280
and all this kind of other stuff.

982
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,240
And like, there's this broader conversation

983
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:22,440
we've been having on the show for a few weeks,

984
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,040
like maybe for the last month or so about like, you know,

985
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,760
what are the use cases that we're gonna see

986
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,320
that actually make the whole party worthwhile, right?

987
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,960
And so that discussion you were having was about

988
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,920
whether or not DAOs make the whole party worth having,

989
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:37,760
right?

990
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,200
And, you know, we're also looking for other use cases,

991
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:42,880
you know, coming forward.

992
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,200
And the question is now, like,

993
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:50,200
if this crash was the dot-com bust moment for crypto,

994
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,560
then most of the cool shit,

995
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,680
most of the stuff that endured happened after that stage,

996
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,720
after the really big collapse of the hype cycle

997
00:57:01,720 --> 00:57:03,440
in the late 90s.

998
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:04,280
But the question is,

999
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,280
is that actually what we've just been through,

1000
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,440
or is this just another little freeson of what's in store?

1001
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,720
And what are the things that people are gonna build, right?

1002
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:15,560
Because like you said, some people are building DeFi stuff,

1003
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:20,120
which, whatever, I could give a shit about a lot of the time.

1004
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,320
But, you know, a lot of people are building games,

1005
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:23,960
they're building all sorts of other stuff.

1006
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,680
So people need to like, almost like,

1007
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,280
I think NFTs are great.

1008
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,480
And I think people need to take the hype out of NFTs.

1009
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,280
They put all this extra fucking baggage on like the term,

1010
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,400
and it's fucking dumb.

1011
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:39,680
Like, I hate these like collector series,

1012
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:41,360
and you expect value to go up.

1013
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:42,480
Here's an idea.

1014
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,560
What if like artists, like, you know,

1015
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,160
like musicians that wanna sell their music digitally,

1016
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,280
or like people that wanna sell eBooks or publications,

1017
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:54,520
or, you know, just like sell content, you know?

1018
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:58,960
Sell, like sell, like make like Bandcamp with NFTs,

1019
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:00,480
but don't even fucking call them NFTs.

1020
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,440
Just like use it as a way to cut out the middleman.

1021
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,760
Like right now, like on Bandcamp,

1022
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:07,000
they have pretty reasonable fees.

1023
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,120
They're like 10% of digital sales.

1024
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:10,440
Like we could crush that with Bandcamp.

1025
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,240
You could drop it down to like 1% or like 0% commission.

1026
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:17,000
Right, but then if they don't cash that out

1027
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,400
on a reasonable time scale, then-

1028
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,320
Then just fucking use also like USDC or whatever, you know?

1029
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,800
It's like just use the crypto rails, you know?

1030
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,120
Or like, you know, like give people options.

1031
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,000
Like, you know, like I think that

1032
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,000
there's been a lot of industry that's trying to like do

1033
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:34,640
like too much new stuff at one time.

1034
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,280
Like what if we like took these concepts like of crypto

1035
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,240
and just like, you know,

1036
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,400
don't even package it as fucking NFTs.

1037
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,520
It's just my digital song, my digital art.

1038
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,760
Like, you know, like Ramar just wrote,

1039
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:48,200
but like on a blockchain.

1040
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:50,960
And, or like my ebook, you know,

1041
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:52,880
it's like decentralized publishing.

1042
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:53,720
And-

1043
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,840
I mean, that's kind of what Audius tried to do.

1044
00:58:55,840 --> 00:59:00,040
And we had, you know, we, we,

1045
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,880
it's quite trivial to build those primitives into,

1046
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,280
like we had those primitives in Howl as well.

1047
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,000
There was no UI for it,

1048
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,600
but like by the time you're sticking stuff on IPFS, right?

1049
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:15,600
Or indeed any CDN, IPFS just being the kind of,

1050
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:19,000
the anointed web three acceptable one, you know,

1051
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,720
it's relatively straightforward to publish any kind of

1052
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:22,560
content.

1053
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,880
But the problem becomes that it's the scaffolding around it,

1054
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:30,720
right?

1055
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:32,800
It's the accepting the payment and then transferring the

1056
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,080
thing without other people having access to the thing.

1057
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:40,040
And then you're back into hard stuff on our current model,

1058
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,800
which is how do you have things that are pseudo private,

1059
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:44,960
right?

1060
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:46,480
I'm not saying these are intractable problems,

1061
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,520
but they are, they're not-

1062
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,320
I don't think they're intractable problems.

1063
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,400
And that's why I think that if people really put their

1064
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,680
minds together, like these are like actually kind of like

1065
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,280
really great, like real world use cases.

1066
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,040
Everyone's like crypto, what's with these like tradable,

1067
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:04,160
like JPEGs, like give me something that's like practical.

1068
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:05,480
And it's like, well,

1069
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,600
I think content distribution is practical.

1070
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:10,560
You know, everyone talks about like ticket sales.

1071
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:12,680
Everyone talks about like, you know,

1072
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,680
the concept of communitility, like why,

1073
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,480
why like buy like an album is like an NFT is cause maybe then

1074
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,280
that gives you the right to like create,

1075
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,240
like get exclusive merch or whatever that you can only get

1076
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:26,480
if you've like bought the album.

1077
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:30,160
I don't think a lot of people are like, so,

1078
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,600
so the big, one of the biggest trends of, you know,

1079
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,120
you know, like the kind of two thousands was people going

1080
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:37,520
back to like vinyl and stuff like that.

1081
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:39,920
But it was because of like the physical tactility of that

1082
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:41,920
different experience, right?

1083
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:45,840
I don't, obviously there was a small group of fans who like,

1084
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,080
we'll just like fucking chew up anything, right?

1085
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,800
But I'm not sure that like fans are looking in general

1086
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,840
for like a digital experience, you know,

1087
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,240
like those kind of overdeveloped,

1088
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,800
I think record companies think that stuff is cool.

1089
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:04,680
I think bands go along with it.

1090
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:08,840
I'm not sure how, how much over-engineering it is

1091
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:10,680
for a use case that doesn't really exist.

1092
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:12,640
What do you mean like digital experience?

1093
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:14,600
I'm talking about like real world things,

1094
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,560
but like real world things that are like mediated

1095
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,560
by like these NFT tokens.

1096
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,720
Sure, but like, again, the, the,

1097
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,840
the middle man in this case, yes, is charging fees

1098
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:29,560
and all that sort of stuff, the ticket seller,

1099
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,240
but you know, you can also just sell your tickets

1100
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:33,360
on We Got Tickets, right?

1101
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,280
And they charge you like 5%.

1102
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,720
Like, so you don't have to use Ticketmaster.

1103
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,800
That's a business decision that people are doing probably

1104
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:47,800
because their label is, is partly owned by Ticketmaster.

1105
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:49,600
It's more about the corporate.

1106
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:50,960
And you're never, and you're never going to get

1107
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:52,800
those people, but there's, I think,

1108
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:54,200
I think there's entry points.

1109
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:55,920
There's like cracks that are opening it all up.

1110
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,000
Cause like these services are really shitty.

1111
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,880
Like look at eBooks, like it's such a weird fucking market.

1112
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,000
And I don't know exactly like where you break in,

1113
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,400
but all these publishers have just been absolutely fucked

1114
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,480
by Amazon.

1115
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:12,760
You know, Amazon charges 30 to 60% to transmit a fucking file

1116
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:13,600
over the internet.

1117
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:15,280
And like authors don't make a ton of money.

1118
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,240
Like that's fucking outrageous.

1119
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:18,080
And like,

1120
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,040
it's way worse than you think, trust me.

1121
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:23,400
Yeah. And like, here's an opportunity and you know,

1122
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,040
you just, it's like a really fucking simple product.

1123
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:27,320
You could even just like, you know,

1124
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,720
build this on top of like Stargaze, for example.

1125
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,800
You just like, you know, like have a story list,

1126
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:34,720
the like, you know, eBooks for sale, you know,

1127
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,280
you like integrate some like web two APIs

1128
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,080
so that you can get sent to their like, you know,

1129
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:43,520
no occur there, whatever, like fucking E Ink device or,

1130
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:44,360
you know, they just,

1131
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:46,120
you can also just download the PDF or the eBook

1132
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:46,960
or whatever.

1133
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:48,000
It's fine.

1134
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:50,640
It's like, and then you just start going to publishers

1135
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:51,480
and just being like,

1136
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,960
Hey, what if you want to like integrate this into your,

1137
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,240
like, you know, into your website?

1138
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:57,080
And so here's some,

1139
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:58,600
here's some widgets and now you can integrate it

1140
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:00,040
into your website and guess what?

1141
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:01,440
You don't have to pay any,

1142
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,280
like you don't have to pay 30 to 60% to Amazon, you know?

1143
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,080
And you might like, it's, it'll be slow at first,

1144
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:09,720
but you know, these things like,

1145
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:11,840
I feel like it's inevitable because I think that

1146
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,640
the tech companies are fucking gouging all these publishers,

1147
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,200
whether it's in music or like in, you know,

1148
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:20,000
definitely in like books, I feel like.

1149
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,800
And so like, you know, if, if you make it like easy enough

1150
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:30,800
for them, like eventually like the like decentralized

1151
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,680
self publishing movement will like really take off.

1152
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:35,880
I kind of agree with you,

1153
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:40,000
but I disagree on where the content will live.

1154
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,560
Like I just, I think that the thing that is the value

1155
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,920
out there is like, I launched a smart contract

1156
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:50,920
that powers my store and then I am the mediator, right?

1157
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,280
I just plug in a backend and then my,

1158
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:58,640
my backend is just a web two service running on AWS

1159
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,560
that when it gets the act saying, yo,

1160
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,080
transaction run to the blockchain,

1161
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:06,360
you've been paid brother, it then fires,

1162
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:10,400
fires off the email with the PDF, with the pub, whatever.

1163
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,480
But like that content, like the EPUB or whatever,

1164
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,440
that kind of content doesn't need to live on the chain.

1165
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:19,360
Or even a reference to it.

1166
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:21,320
Why does it need to?

1167
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,560
Cause the thing that matters is the payment, right?

1168
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:25,320
Cause this is all about,

1169
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,080
this is all about taking control of like, like you said,

1170
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:30,400
if you're eliminating middlemen and that sort of thing,

1171
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,200
what you really need is the payment infrastructure

1172
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,640
that doesn't involve a banking provider really.

1173
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:36,480
Yeah.

1174
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:37,720
Or the large corporate.

1175
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:38,840
Or you can think about it, like,

1176
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,680
if you really want to be like, you know, a boot looker,

1177
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:45,040
you can just be like, hey, like USDC,

1178
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:48,240
it's basically a banking provider and it's way easier to use

1179
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:50,560
than like Visa or MasterCard.

1180
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:52,360
And it's also cheaper to use too.

1181
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,320
Like you don't have to pay 2.5% of a transaction fee.

1182
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:56,160
That's like. Yeah.

1183
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:58,200
Well, I mean, well, yes and no.

1184
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,040
I mean, USDC couldn't even fucking process a transaction

1185
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,000
to our business bank in the UK.

1186
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:08,000
So they, meh, I think they're kind of a bit overrated.

1187
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:12,280
I'd rather get paid in just a crypto and cash out,

1188
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:15,520
but then that's kind of back to the problem, right?

1189
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:18,800
Is that like, if you make it as decentralized as possible

1190
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:22,200
to just a wallet, it would definitely 100% work,

1191
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,600
unlike USDC, which doesn't definitely 100% work

1192
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,320
if you're going through that thing.

1193
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:30,880
Wait, USDC works great.

1194
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:31,800
Or are you talking about like,

1195
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:33,200
do they have some like business service

1196
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:35,160
or something they use or?

1197
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:37,680
Their internal tooling is kind of shitty,

1198
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:38,840
but then, you know, the flip side of that

1199
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:40,360
is you can get paid in USDC

1200
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,520
and then withdraw it from Kraken, which will work.

1201
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:43,880
And yeah, see, there you go.

1202
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:45,200
Like that's great.

1203
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,160
And then there's like, there's like,

1204
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:50,480
there's Transact, there's Cato.

1205
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,680
Like I think that there's a lot to be said this year of like,

1206
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:55,120
you know, what's the crypto use cases?

1207
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,360
Like just do fucking simple shit

1208
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,800
and just like do it more efficiently, you know?

1209
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:05,720
Cut out the middleman, like don't even suck,

1210
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:08,520
like have to like create like, you know,

1211
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:10,000
like a new term for it, you know?

1212
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,800
We don't have to be like, NFTs, DAOs, ASICs, you know,

1213
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,000
like just like constantly throwing acronyms at people,

1214
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:18,400
you know?

1215
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:19,240
Just like.

1216
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:21,840
Well, yeah, if you give people something they want or need,

1217
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,560
they'll just hand over their money and go, ah, cheers.

1218
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,520
Yeah, also by the, like this is also,

1219
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:28,360
I feel like something that we hear in crypto,

1220
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,240
like time and time again, like every fucking cycle is,

1221
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:32,760
when are the use cases gonna come?

1222
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:34,080
When are the use cases gonna come?

1223
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:36,400
And people don't really see like,

1224
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,800
how things have been like fucking progressing.

1225
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:41,840
Like they asked this because they're just like normies

1226
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,760
and not involved in like, not like seeing like the drastic,

1227
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:45,680
like when Bitcoin started,

1228
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:48,320
it was literally just this like really shitty payment

1229
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:50,600
network and now we have entire financial systems.

1230
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:53,560
Like crypto can run entire financial systems.

1231
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:55,720
Soon it's gonna be like crypto can run like entire

1232
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,480
governments, like crypto can run like market,

1233
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:03,160
marketplaces where people can sell and like even earn

1234
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:04,920
royalties from media.

1235
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:06,720
And people are still asking like, where,

1236
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:07,760
where are the use cases?

1237
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:08,600
Where are the use cases?

1238
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:10,840
And it's just like, it's like,

1239
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:12,400
it's kind of this like slow thing.

1240
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,120
And then it's like, it's like that slowly, slowly,

1241
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:17,960
and then suddenly all at once kind of thing.

1242
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:20,120
Well, at the moment, it's still like, you know,

1243
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,560
the whole thing is sort of still just beta testers

1244
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:25,560
and developers trying things out, right?

1245
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:30,560
It's like still ultra early and like, yeah, man,

1246
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:34,080
like it's the type of thing where you have to build

1247
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:37,680
something, try it on, see if people like it, go from there.

1248
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:40,080
And like, there's gonna be tons of shit that people build

1249
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:42,480
that people are just gonna hate and then they're gonna fail.

1250
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,760
And it's gonna be the odd thing that gets traction.

1251
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:48,160
And when you like get more and more of those odd things

1252
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:50,360
that gain traction, you're gonna like attract more

1253
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,480
and more users to the ecosystem.

1254
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,000
And eventually you'll hit some sort of critical mass

1255
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:57,560
where people talk and talk and it'll just exponentially

1256
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:00,560
explode, but it's gonna take time.

1257
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,160
It's gonna take still a long time from now.

1258
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:05,720
And it's not gonna happen overnight.

1259
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,080
Even then, like, I guess the flip side is like,

1260
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:11,920
you'd be surprised at what ideas are being taken

1261
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:14,200
from the ecosystem and are actually like then getting

1262
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:15,800
executed elsewhere, right?

1263
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:19,920
Because there's ideas that might not be, might not work

1264
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:21,320
or be too early or whatever.

1265
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,200
And other people are going, oh no, but we can apply

1266
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:25,800
that lesson or whatever elsewhere.

1267
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:30,800
Like, I remember like how good like early Bitcoin

1268
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:34,000
or earlyish Bitcoin, like early 2010s,

1269
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:35,560
it was actually relatively quick.

1270
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,960
Like, I mean, you could accept a payment in like five minutes

1271
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:41,880
which is not perfect, but you know, this was at a time

1272
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,360
when you didn't really get good online banking apps.

1273
01:08:44,360 --> 01:08:45,800
Yeah, there was no Venmo then.

1274
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:47,640
Yeah, there was no Venmo.

1275
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:49,320
A settled payment took ages.

1276
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:52,280
And I remember like the, you know, here's a QR code,

1277
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:56,200
pay me or like buying a pizza with Bitcoin, QR code,

1278
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:58,400
bam, done.

1279
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:01,120
And I remember that being like a way better mobile

1280
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:03,120
experience than any bank.

1281
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:07,240
And then in the UK, certainly like Monzo, Starling, Tide,

1282
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,920
others, Challenger Banks came along and they made

1283
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,880
that experience just seamless for banking.

1284
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:17,480
Like sign up by saying, I would like a bank account,

1285
01:09:17,480 --> 01:09:19,160
bam, you're done.

1286
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:23,320
All that kind of stuff was completely like a revelation.

1287
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:27,120
I think actually it was Ben Davis who is in the chat

1288
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,560
who said, oh yeah, one of the early investors of Monzo

1289
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:31,880
or one of the founders was a crypto guy.

1290
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:35,440
And you're like, okay, there you go.

1291
01:09:35,440 --> 01:09:38,320
That's the answer is that somebody took the idea

1292
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:40,600
and went, the masses aren't ready for that.

1293
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:42,360
But they go, oh, well, but look, these payments

1294
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:43,200
are more seamless.

1295
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:44,600
They're easier to use at the moment.

1296
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:48,800
They're not quick, but the UI is better.

1297
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:51,360
What of these lessons can I take and apply elsewhere?

1298
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:53,960
And they go and start an actual bank,

1299
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:57,400
dealing in pounds sterling and it's a huge,

1300
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,120
billion pound success.

1301
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:01,280
So you're also just like, some of the successes

1302
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:02,960
in crypto won't happen in crypto.

1303
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:05,080
They will actually happen elsewhere,

1304
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:07,800
but maybe something else will get improved.

1305
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:08,800
Maybe.

1306
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:13,560
I tend to think that crypto has forced banks to evolve

1307
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:16,880
and improve their services because when Bitcoin

1308
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,800
first came out, sending money, like you say,

1309
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:22,320
from one person to another was dog shit

1310
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:23,520
and took at least a day, right?

1311
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:25,200
I'm not sure what it's still like in America,

1312
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,920
but in Australia, it took a whole,

1313
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,760
it took a fucking day to send something minimum.

1314
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,080
And now we have instant transfers.

1315
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:35,640
And I'm pretty sure that is just trying to stay ahead

1316
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:40,080
of the curve on crypto and trying to evolve,

1317
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:44,120
because the whole system was ancient

1318
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:48,160
and no one was motivated to do anything about it

1319
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:49,440
because it was a status quo

1320
01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:51,760
and there was no competition for that.

1321
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:54,720
So all of the banks got together

1322
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:59,320
and created a new protocol with the interbank communication

1323
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:01,280
to be able to actually make that happen.

1324
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:06,280
So I think crypto is like pushing normal finance

1325
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:11,280
as well as the whole crypto industry moving along separately.

1326
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:13,160
So I don't know.

1327
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:15,280
I think there's gonna be a lot more things like that.

1328
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:17,440
And if all crypto does is improve

1329
01:11:17,440 --> 01:11:21,560
the traditional finance landscape,

1330
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,440
well, I mean, that's a win anyway, right?

1331
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:27,280
Well, I mean, so right now international payments

1332
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:29,400
still go through, I think the smart system,

1333
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:31,920
which is still hand done everywhere.

1334
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:33,440
So I think it's a win anyway.

1335
01:11:33,440 --> 01:11:36,280
But the system, which is still hand done,

1336
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,440
every single transaction that's international

1337
01:11:38,440 --> 01:11:40,760
is done through this one thing, which is why it's still-

1338
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:42,200
Swift. Swift, thank you.

1339
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:45,600
That's the one, smart Swift, I was close.

1340
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,560
And so if that's eventually overthrown because of crypto,

1341
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:52,680
I mean, that's a good thing just in itself.

1342
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:54,880
I mean, Swift is kind of the reason why,

1343
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:57,400
what is it, remittance costs are so high

1344
01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,640
because they need to go through something.

1345
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:01,840
So they end up going through, what is it?

1346
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:05,680
That cash payment place, Western Union,

1347
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,040
they go through Western Union frequently

1348
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:10,160
instead of going through banks.

1349
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:11,720
Crypto has helped us that.

1350
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:14,360
Yeah, I think- So initially that was like-

1351
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:17,600
There's like a regulator even has an accelerator thing

1352
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:20,200
saying that like we will,

1353
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:23,440
if you are a business looking at using this technology

1354
01:12:23,440 --> 01:12:27,960
for this use case, we will potentially work with you.

1355
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:31,600
But by the way, FYI, you're gonna get regulated as fuck

1356
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,480
because you're handling real, real fucking money.

1357
01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:38,920
But we are kind of like, we recognize this is gonna be

1358
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:41,720
one of the first things that somebody wants to do

1359
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:43,080
with this tech.

1360
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:45,440
The picture is literally on the FCA's website.

1361
01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:49,160
So one of the first things that,

1362
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:51,320
well, one of the original use cases for XRP

1363
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:52,560
was cross border payments.

1364
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:54,360
And they pushed that pretty hard.

1365
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:59,360
And there are like a bunch of networks

1366
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:03,800
that are pretty decent that could handle

1367
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:05,800
like shit loads of transactions

1368
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:07,880
and would be good for that.

1369
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:10,200
Like XRP is probably one of them.

1370
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,960
I'm not saying that I like the XRP network

1371
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,600
because well, Ripple loans like 60% of the coins there.

1372
01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:18,360
So it's not fantastic in that regard.

1373
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:23,360
But there's also that other one that's like,

1374
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:28,720
shit, I can't remember the name of it now, but it's-

1375
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:29,960
Stellar, is that what you're thinking?

1376
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:30,800
XLM?

1377
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:31,640
No, I don't know.

1378
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,720
No, it's like funded by Google and Amazon

1379
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:36,280
and all of those people.

1380
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:40,360
And it's, the way it works is like crazy weird.

1381
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:42,400
It's not like per block finality.

1382
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:44,600
It's like uses this gossip protocol.

1383
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:46,920
So you actually don't talk to all of the validators.

1384
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:51,680
You tell some of the validators some information

1385
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:54,200
and then they just pass it on in a Merkle tree.

1386
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:59,120
And then you end up with this crazy, fuck, what is it called?

1387
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:01,320
Is that Hedera Hashgraph?

1388
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:02,720
Yeah, Hashgraph, yeah.

1389
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:07,720
It's pretty fast and like can handle shit loads of transactions.

1390
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:10,400
Like networks like that would be good

1391
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:13,600
for cross border transactions.

1392
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:17,800
And I think that that's a good use case for those.

1393
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:20,040
But they have to be able to store the money.

1394
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:23,360
And I, for example, XRP could never be that

1395
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:27,400
because you can't invest a heap of money in XRP

1396
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:31,000
because it's all basically owned by someone,

1397
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:33,840
at least half of it's owned by one entity.

1398
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:38,360
So you would never adopt that as a global sort of token.

1399
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:44,200
So, and that's the other thing, like you're going to make,

1400
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:48,320
if one of these networks becomes like the de facto

1401
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:52,760
for like all of these cross border transaction situations,

1402
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:57,760
the initial issuer is going to be fucking ultra rich

1403
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,720
unless you like come up with some sort of situation

1404
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:11,680
where, I don't know, it's like,

1405
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:13,600
you're going to centralize a lot of money.

1406
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:16,520
Like even things like USDC, right?

1407
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:19,080
It becomes a thing where you're swapping

1408
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:23,840
like a US dollar currency for the virtual equivalent, right?

1409
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:28,840
And that's fine, but unless like you just centralize

1410
01:15:30,440 --> 01:15:33,480
all that currency in one big ball.

1411
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:38,160
So, in my mind, I'm thinking like a situation

1412
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:40,360
where you need to actually sacrifice,

1413
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:44,360
like a real world currency

1414
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:46,320
in order to get the virtual equivalent,

1415
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:49,800
but still recognized as a legal tender

1416
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:54,880
is probably the way that like you could get

1417
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:59,480
that distribution to work without having some person

1418
01:15:59,480 --> 01:16:03,240
or entity that just gets ultra rich from it.

1419
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,640
So like, kind of like how Bridgeworks,

1420
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:10,680
you take your US dollars and you burn it into like,

1421
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:12,880
the central bank equivalent.

1422
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,840
So the actual real money supply becomes less.

1423
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:19,040
This sounds kind of like a central bank digital currency

1424
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:20,920
is what you're describing.

1425
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:22,760
Yeah, so we need that.

1426
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,440
I was thinking the same thing.

1427
01:16:25,440 --> 01:16:28,200
It has to be, yeah, it has to be,

1428
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:30,080
yes, it's sporty in the chat said,

1429
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:32,880
like a central bank digital currency.

1430
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:34,880
Wait, did I just invent something that already exists?

1431
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:35,720
What an idiot.

1432
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:37,040
Yeah.

1433
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:38,080
Delegated king notes.

1434
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:41,160
But the other question here was,

1435
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:42,880
so there's two ways of going about it, right?

1436
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:47,880
Like you'd have a proof of stake network or whatever

1437
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:50,560
where validators are obviously gonna be regulated

1438
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:53,400
in that scenario if it's a central bank digital currency.

1439
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:55,240
And they're probably gonna be in multiple jurisdictions

1440
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:57,600
because they're gonna be trying to run this.

1441
01:16:57,600 --> 01:16:58,880
And who's gonna run it?

1442
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:01,840
Probably the US government because dollars,

1443
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:05,440
petrodollars, so it's the clearinghouse for everything.

1444
01:17:05,440 --> 01:17:07,440
And that would still probably be better

1445
01:17:07,440 --> 01:17:08,520
than the current system,

1446
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:11,240
but it's not exactly the glorious anarchist future

1447
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:12,840
that we were all hoping for.

1448
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:16,880
The glorious anarchist future is definitely, it's happening.

1449
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:20,800
History is not with you on that one, I will say,

1450
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:23,480
but we can hope,

1451
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:28,160
but overwhelmingly hit the historical record shows that.

1452
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:30,440
I think it'll probably most likely be a mix.

1453
01:17:30,440 --> 01:17:33,720
Like there's gonna be like central bank digital currencies

1454
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:34,680
or whatever.

1455
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:37,840
But the cool thing about IBC is like that allows

1456
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:42,560
like this way for these countries to connect their CBDCs

1457
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:45,240
and to connect with like independent blockchains,

1458
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:48,360
whether those be blockchains run by like private companies

1459
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:50,280
or decentralized ones.

1460
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:52,800
And so I feel like, you know,

1461
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:54,880
one of the things about the internet blockchains vision

1462
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:57,200
is that we'll actually have multiple competing visions.

1463
01:17:57,200 --> 01:17:59,080
Like the anarchists, like crypto anarchists,

1464
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:02,520
blockchains will live alongside like the state blockchains

1465
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:05,080
and will live alongside like private enterprise ones.

1466
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:10,080
And it'll all be like this like swarming massive cryptographic

1467
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:14,640
state machines that can send verified packets

1468
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:16,360
between each other.

1469
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:18,560
Sounds very energy efficient.

1470
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:19,400
Yeah.

1471
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:20,520
Well, I was gonna say, if you,

1472
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:22,680
if any of the- Well, if you think about it,

1473
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:26,760
you know, we run this internet right now

1474
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:29,160
with like a fuck ton of infrastructure.

1475
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:31,480
It's not that different.

1476
01:18:31,480 --> 01:18:33,560
This is not like Bitcoin mining, you know,

1477
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:36,400
and the algorithms are getting better and better.

1478
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:41,400
Also, you know, like a central bank digital currency,

1479
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:45,800
they might only need like 20 nodes or like, you know,

1480
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:49,720
they don't need to be as decentralized as like, you know.

1481
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:51,800
Well, I was gonna say that in this model,

1482
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:53,920
the more anarchist you are,

1483
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:55,760
the more likely you want proof of work.

1484
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:58,040
The more you are a central bank digital currency,

1485
01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:01,320
the more likely you can tolerate proof of stake.

1486
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:05,960
Like if we've, if I, you know, like joking aside,

1487
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:08,560
if you were like long-term gonna hang your hat

1488
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:11,240
on a currency to clear payments,

1489
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:14,560
like as in we are gonna build band camp on a blockchain,

1490
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:19,080
are you gonna do it on a proof of stake chain

1491
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:21,080
where people can vote away your assets?

1492
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:24,480
Like if you're Universal Records or whoever,

1493
01:19:24,480 --> 01:19:27,120
if you're like a really big band, if you're like-

1494
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:28,960
If you're Universal Records, you launch it.

1495
01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:30,080
If you're Radiohead, right?

1496
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:33,800
If you wanna do in rainbows again, right?

1497
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:35,320
You're Radiohead, you wanna do it.

1498
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:37,800
You're gonna do payments clearing on a blockchain.

1499
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:40,480
There's millions of dollars, right?

1500
01:19:40,480 --> 01:19:43,640
We're talking about, are they gonna be like,

1501
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:45,920
we'll do it on a proof of stake blockchain?

1502
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:47,360
Yeah, they totally will.

1503
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:51,080
Cause like, I feel like the scenario that you mentioned,

1504
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:54,440
Alex is like basically like only happened one time

1505
01:19:54,440 --> 01:19:56,600
and we all fucking lived through it.

1506
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:58,240
But it's like, that's like the only time

1507
01:19:58,240 --> 01:19:59,760
I can think of it's ever happened.

1508
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:01,600
Right, but it's gonna become more common.

1509
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:03,320
It was a lot more, it was a lot more nuanced.

1510
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:04,400
It could become more common,

1511
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:08,560
but I think that any place where it becomes like common

1512
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:11,960
without like sufficient like justification,

1513
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:15,640
like it's not gonna attract.

1514
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:19,720
Like I think proof of stake, like people won't even,

1515
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:22,560
like if anything, the universal musics of the world

1516
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:25,360
will run their own chains and they'll just like interact

1517
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:28,720
over IBC to the other like kind of more decentralized

1518
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:31,720
networks when needed or to things like central banks,

1519
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:33,680
like central bank digital currencies

1520
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:35,440
or like other tokens or whatever.

1521
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:38,800
So all that's really happening here then

1522
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:40,520
is the privatization of money

1523
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:44,600
because typically privatization occurs when people

1524
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:49,600
or companies lose faith in some sort of institution

1525
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:51,720
to act in their interests.

1526
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:55,000
And so they start building infrastructure of their own.

1527
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:57,120
Or, you know, there is also an efficiency case,

1528
01:20:57,120 --> 01:20:59,520
but I think it's more the efficiency case.

1529
01:21:02,480 --> 01:21:05,480
Yeah, but then that has its own,

1530
01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:08,040
the efficiency case obviously can have its own implications

1531
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:09,400
in the kind of longer spread

1532
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:12,440
because the efficiency case often does bear out,

1533
01:21:12,440 --> 01:21:14,720
but then a lot of money gets made

1534
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:17,680
and then it has secondary and tertiary political effects.

1535
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,200
Look at, so the reason this is in my head

1536
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:24,480
is specifically I've been reading Corporate Warriors

1537
01:21:24,480 --> 01:21:27,960
by I think P.W. Singer, which is about the privatization

1538
01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:30,280
of the military after the end of the Cold War.

1539
01:21:30,280 --> 01:21:32,920
And I was like, holy fucking shit,

1540
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:36,720
there's something about this that is tingling with timbers

1541
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:40,640
about the way corporations will enter this space.

1542
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:42,760
And what you've just described about corporations

1543
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:47,320
and IBC is like, yes, that is really, really similar

1544
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:52,200
to how very large corporations expanded horizontally

1545
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:55,640
into, hey, look, there's this growth industry,

1546
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:57,160
it's called killing people.

1547
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:00,280
You know, it turns out it's quite profitable,

1548
01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:02,960
I'm actually, you know, I'm simplified.

1549
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:04,280
I agree.

1550
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:06,840
Well, Portland's kind of doing something right now,

1551
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,520
right now with that with the police,

1552
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:11,320
the police are doing what's called a slow down

1553
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:13,120
where they basically just don't answer the phone

1554
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:17,400
in order to protest, defund the police movement.

1555
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:19,000
But anyway, ignoring that,

1556
01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:20,560
there's a lot of private security firms

1557
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:24,560
that are coming about basically filling in that gap,

1558
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:27,080
but it is only exclusively for businesses, right?

1559
01:22:27,080 --> 01:22:29,360
They're not gonna be hiring private security

1560
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:31,480
that happens for the everyday person.

1561
01:22:31,480 --> 01:22:35,280
And so we're getting more crimes around like property crimes

1562
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:37,760
because our homeless population has gone up something

1563
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:40,120
like 30% in the last year.

1564
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:43,600
And businesses are like, oh, these things are showing

1565
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,680
up pretty good because they now have their private security,

1566
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:49,200
but everyday people are like, this kind of sucks because now-

1567
01:22:49,200 --> 01:22:53,040
Right, because the problem is whoever's prepared to pay

1568
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:57,760
or able to pay then is able to not only be exempt

1569
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:01,400
from the problem, but also define how the problem is viewed

1570
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:03,520
and whether it's even defined as a problem.

1571
01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:07,560
And that is the, there's a stats in that book somewhere

1572
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:10,120
about private security where I think it was talking

1573
01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:11,640
about in like the issue of the year 2000,

1574
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:14,240
there were already twice as many private security guards,

1575
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:17,760
come from if it was in the UK or the US as there were police.

1576
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:19,600
And that was about, and that was like directly,

1577
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:21,640
you could like, you look at the graph where you're like,

1578
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:26,040
reduction in funding of police and probably the UK actually,

1579
01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:27,880
because I feel like the US police-

1580
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:29,640
Yeah, we don't reduce funding for police.

1581
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:31,160
We just give them more money and we give them

1582
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:32,000
like military weapons.

1583
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:34,200
More tanks to shoot protesters.

1584
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:36,440
That sounds like it came from the UK, yeah.

1585
01:23:36,440 --> 01:23:38,640
Yeah, in the UK, they probably just like,

1586
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:41,120
oh, just don't fund them at all.

1587
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:43,480
But also- Yeah, we love cops here.

1588
01:23:43,480 --> 01:23:46,600
Yeah, I think that probably in the UK,

1589
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:48,920
what they did was defund them, but then it also said,

1590
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:51,080
oh, but we expect you to beat up students,

1591
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,440
but you'll have to do overtime in order to do it,

1592
01:23:54,440 --> 01:23:56,840
but we're not gonna pay you for the overtime.

1593
01:23:56,840 --> 01:23:59,560
So we'll hire into private security to beat them up as well.

1594
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:00,560
Something like that, I don't know.

1595
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:01,640
I'm probably, that's probably not-

1596
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:02,960
How did we get on with this tangent?

1597
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:03,800
This was-

1598
01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:06,600
Privatization of money.

1599
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:08,800
Well, I think that this also gets to another thing

1600
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,040
that I think we're gonna start seeing more and more is,

1601
01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:13,920
and Sporty put it in the chat is like,

1602
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:17,960
it's not just proof of work, it's not just proof of stake.

1603
01:24:17,960 --> 01:24:20,040
Those are the most popular models right now,

1604
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:23,240
but there's also POA, which is supported in a tenement

1605
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:25,440
or proof of authority, where you just say like,

1606
01:24:25,440 --> 01:24:26,880
this node, this node, this node,

1607
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:29,320
they're running transactions on the network.

1608
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:32,600
That network could use IBC assets like USDC

1609
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:36,800
or whatever sanctioned bootlicker coin you want,

1610
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:38,760
or also cool coins like Juno.

1611
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:43,280
So that's kind of, that's how XRP works

1612
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:45,400
is like no staking in XRP,

1613
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:47,560
it's just a list of accepted nodes.

1614
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:48,400
Yep, exactly.

1615
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:51,280
They just, yeah, it's like everyone agrees on a list

1616
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:54,160
and then that's the list and then no one else can join.

1617
01:24:57,040 --> 01:24:57,880
Yep.

1618
01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:03,400
Like the thing is, it's not the end of, like the,

1619
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:08,840
yeah, I don't think it's the end of the world.

1620
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:11,680
You know, you can pay your bills, whatever you pay your bill.

1621
01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:14,720
It's kind of like, okay, so what it reminds me of is like,

1622
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:18,400
if you go, okay, well, the currencies themselves

1623
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:19,880
are a little bit of a distraction,

1624
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:21,560
they're just a privatization of currency.

1625
01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:24,360
And you go, okay, the blockchain just detects it.

1626
01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:26,640
And you go, well, okay, look at the use case in Web2,

1627
01:25:26,640 --> 01:25:28,760
you go, well, a bunch of them are still gonna be

1628
01:25:28,760 --> 01:25:30,680
fundamentally better served by Web2 tech.

1629
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:35,440
Like nothing in Web3 is gonna displace streaming data stores

1630
01:25:35,440 --> 01:25:38,000
because it's just a fundamentally different use case, right?

1631
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:41,080
Like CERN, CERN are not gonna be like,

1632
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:44,080
ah, we need to process the large hadron collider data

1633
01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:45,080
onto a blockchain.

1634
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:46,080
Doesn't fucking make sense.

1635
01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:48,280
It's throw away data, it's logs, right?

1636
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:50,240
They're always gonna use a different database technology.

1637
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:53,400
And like, but in the same way, there's like,

1638
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:54,920
you know, the use cases for these things

1639
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:56,920
may just be completely,

1640
01:25:56,920 --> 01:25:58,840
just like the use cases for the underlying tech,

1641
01:25:58,840 --> 01:26:01,280
like the actual blockchain as a database,

1642
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:04,000
like there are different database technologies.

1643
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:05,400
Web2 will probably always be run off

1644
01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:08,160
of slightly different stuff to Web3, to the interchange.

1645
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:09,960
Fuck Web2 and Web3, it's such shit names.

1646
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:11,280
Yeah, fuck that shit. The interchange will always

1647
01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:15,440
be run off of, you know, consensus stores.

1648
01:26:15,440 --> 01:26:19,160
Web2 will likely always be run off of columnar type

1649
01:26:19,160 --> 01:26:21,280
or no SQL data stores or whatever.

1650
01:26:22,440 --> 01:26:24,560
And then you go, okay, well actually by the same measure,

1651
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:27,920
like a central bank digital currency

1652
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:30,560
in which you pay your taxes is likely to be

1653
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:33,720
a particular type of thing with these particular properties,

1654
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:37,360
a privatized currency for different things.

1655
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:39,320
You know, whether that's privatized currency

1656
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:42,200
issued by your residence association

1657
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:43,240
for the building you live in,

1658
01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:45,640
or whether that's for some other thing,

1659
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:47,280
they're gonna be completely heterogeneous

1660
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:48,320
and they have different use cases.

1661
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:49,360
Maybe that's fine.

1662
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:51,760
Maybe I'm freaking out over nothing.

1663
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:52,600
I don't know.

1664
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:55,000
It's gonna be interesting and scary

1665
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:56,600
to see how it pans out, I guess.

1666
01:26:58,080 --> 01:27:00,600
That's just life. Life is interesting and scary.

1667
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:04,400
Yeah, that's why I try to leave the house too much.

1668
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:05,720
That's what this whole computer program,

1669
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:06,760
I think, was supposed to be about.

1670
01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:11,200
But it turns out, you can't escape it.

1671
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:15,800
Yeah. It comes to you.

1672
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:20,520
Okay.

1673
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:22,720
Yeah, anyway, sorry.

1674
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:25,280
Didn't mean to be such a downer, sorry.

1675
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:26,720
This is what happens.

1676
01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:28,880
We start talking about like

1677
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:30,320
the future of the internet and stuff.

1678
01:27:30,320 --> 01:27:32,000
Yeah, you're such a downer, Alex.

1679
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:36,360
We purposefully said that this was a positive podcast.

1680
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:38,080
This was supposed to be the positive 20s, 23s.

1681
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:39,400
Yeah, that was supposed to be last year.

1682
01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:41,000
For his, no, it's not like that.

1683
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:42,480
All the alpha was part of the show.

1684
01:27:42,480 --> 01:27:46,000
Was CWSDK is great, even though it doesn't exist yet.

1685
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:46,840
First of all, yeah.

1686
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:49,400
So guys, on the spreadsheet here,

1687
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:52,800
on the spreadsheet here, it's got business plans.

1688
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:55,240
Is that supposed to be business plans, question mark?

1689
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:56,440
What does this one mean?

1690
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:00,720
Why start now?

1691
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:02,560
Literally, we're gonna open up this,

1692
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:05,320
now you're gonna go to the spreadsheet, an hour 28 in.

1693
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:06,480
Okay, let's go back to the spreadsheet.

1694
01:28:06,480 --> 01:28:08,480
January, 2023 now.

1695
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:11,240
The Big Balls blockchain.

1696
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:16,560
Oh, hey Jake, do you know about the Christmas present

1697
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:18,280
from Usurp?

1698
01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:19,120
No.

1699
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:21,200
Is it?

1700
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:22,040
Is it Big Balls?

1701
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:26,560
So last, yeah, Usurp, Usurp, last episode,

1702
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:29,000
he gave us all Christmas gifts

1703
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:34,000
and it's our email addresses on bigballsblockchain.com.

1704
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:35,000
Okay, cool.

1705
01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:38,440
You could have dowdow at bigballsblockchain.com.

1706
01:28:38,440 --> 01:28:39,280
All right, sounds great.

1707
01:28:39,280 --> 01:28:40,520
Small fee.

1708
01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:41,360
You want in?

1709
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:42,200
Yeah.

1710
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:43,040
You're in.

1711
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:43,880
Let's see.

1712
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:48,480
I'm going to give you the keys to the Lamborghini.

1713
01:28:48,480 --> 01:28:52,160
Exactly.

1714
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:53,000
That's Usurp.

1715
01:28:59,000 --> 01:28:59,840
Yeah.

1716
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:00,680
Yeah.

1717
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:04,160
Like the, yeah.

1718
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:05,960
I just want to see the first CW SDK chain.

1719
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:06,800
I'm not gonna lie.

1720
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:09,440
That's my, my 2023 is like, I want to see the first,

1721
01:29:09,440 --> 01:29:11,640
see like the mesh, the mesh security stuff

1722
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:16,320
and all that's kind of cool, but I want to see a chain

1723
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:19,280
that's completely like Rust basically.

1724
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,760
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast

1725
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:27,640
on the Cosmos from independent validator teams.

1726
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:31,400
And Cosmos, that'd be fucking cool.

1727
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:33,480
That'd be kind of ace.

1728
01:29:33,480 --> 01:29:58,480
Anything else is a bonus.