foot out of the pub. I don't think it's like, it's like what time is it on the West coast right now?
1pm. Right. So he's probably not at the pub. He's not a big drinker anyway. Like last time,
I'm pretty sure he was just like drinking fucking sparkling water or something last
time I saw him in a drinking hole. Welcome to Game of Notes,
a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator teams.
Hello and welcome to Game of Notes, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validator
teams. And we are still awaiting, I don't know how much of that was live before.
Cool. But we're still awaiting Jake who may be in the pub. So yes, we're still, we're waiting on
Jake. He will be here at some point and then we can crack out the spreadsheet and get rocking.
Until then, hello everybody. Welcome to 2023, an exciting new year of bear market awaits.
And you can't really see it, but we've, we've got a special background here, which is an old meme
that I ripped off of Jaby, I think, although another person who's rugged us.
Was Jaby supposed to be on tonight as well? Well, he was supposed to be on last week. And then there
was kind of noise about maybe this week and, and, and that's, that's obviously not happened. So
Jaby, Jaby, Jaby. Maybe I better go back to organising the guests made.
Well, I mean, I don't really do it. I just send DMS to people done and they let me down.
Done. Jaby is not supposed to be a guest. He's supposed to be a regular.
He's friend of the show. He's supposed to be. When you haven't been here for 10 months, you
can no longer be called a regular. I mean, yeah. Like one day when this is like a mega podcast,
historians of the podcast can go back and work out exactly what the gap is between
this show and when he was last on. And I would guess it's six months,
maybe. No, no, no. Cause it was the autumn one with the dog bouncing around the background.
So it's, it's gotta be probably only four months, I guess. Yeah. That's the view outside. So for
those of you listening on podcast players, we just got treated to a panoramic webcam tilt from NAR.
That was for Rama. To show the somewhat cloudy. Cause it's the middle of summer for you, isn't it?
Yeah, it's like, yeah, definitely in the middle of summer. But I think a lot of the,
a lot of the cloudiness of that was like the cleanliness of that window.
It's, it is overcast. Right. Is it like, is it like jellyfish season at the moment?
It depends on which way the wind goes. If you get an onshore wind that might bring up blue bottles
and jellyfish, but not really like maybe up, up North at like Cairns and that you get your kanji.
So you can't really go swimming up there unless you got a stinger suit.
Yeah. And presumably if you're not, wait, wait, wait. Okay. Let's wait. We're going to have to
come back to what you just said there. Cause stinger suit, what? Yeah. Let's put a pin in that.
So wait, wait, wait, wait. You don't have the lethal, the lethal
flora and fauna where you are right now. Cause I mean, we are all, we all know everything we know
about Australia because of the Simpsons, right? Which is that everything will kill you. Right.
Yeah. So, well, at the moment you could probably die in seven different ways before you get to your
gate just from the snakes and fucking ants and not ants, but there's other things with legs, spiders.
Like when I went out to get a coffee this morning, I literally walked through a spider's web with a
fucking enormous spider in it. Didn't see it. But yeah, like on the coast here is like pretty
populated. There's not really too much stuff here that will eat you, but in the water. So in this
area, you can get box jellyfish, which are pretty bad if you run into one of those. But other than
that, there's these little, little jellyfish. They're like pretty small. They're called Ericangie
and they're super lethal, but they're up in the warmer waters up north.
I thought it was box that were lethal. Yeah. They're pretty bad. They'll fucking fuck you up.
Right. So, so where, so, okay. I promise.
Well, there's not tons of them though. We put a bit in there a second ago.
What the fuck's a stinger suit? Yeah. So when you're up in Cairns, when you're up at like Cairns or
up in the northern parts of Australia, all in that tropical coast is they've got Ericangie, right?
They're like little jellyfish that are deadly. So, as well as crocodiles and shit, but so a
stinger suit is just like a wet suit. It's like from here, you know, to your wrists, to your ankles,
and you can wear booties that if you like bump into them, then they can't sting you.
So you can go to the stinger hand. So yeah, but you know, little mittens on whatever your face,
thing, your face, actually the stinger suits are like, yeah, they come like right over. So it's
just like your face sticking out. So let's just say that you're like significantly reducing the
surface area that you can be stung. In order to go in the water, you need to fully, fully close off
any entrance, any patch of skin, any entrance to your body. Yeah. And it's like hot as well,
because it's the summer. Beautiful. Are you suggesting that the scene in Point Break with
Patrick Swayze when he goes and swims during the hurricane, that probably wasn't correct because
he wasn't wearing a stinger suit? No. So that was, so Point Break was, what's the name of that
beach? That's Bell's beach. That's all the way down in the south of Australia, down on the south
coast. And that's not a lethal beach. Okay. No, no, there's no Urikanji down there. There's only
sharks. Probably a lot of sharks down in the boat. So,
just lots of sharks. Wait, wait. So hold on. Just to bring this back to a previous point then,
what are your thoughts on Point Break? Because we've established you don't like heat and you're
wrong, but you, Point Break? Point Break's a great movie. One of the best. Right. So we're,
okay. So Point Break- Right up there with dirty dancing.
There's a lot to take in the statement that was just made. Yep. Okay. I just saw, I just saw
look. We were like, we were like, oh my God. Hold on now. Like a car crash out of the middle of
nowhere. That dirty dancing is a fantastic movie. Yeah, I think so too. It's a classic Swayze movie.
Wait, did you say Patrick Swayze?
Wait, who's in that? It's a good movie anyway.
Hello. Welcome to Game of Knows, a weekly podcast on the cosmos from Indefect.
Special against Patrick Swayze.
Right. Patrick Sway- Swayze. Swayze. That's how I've heard it said.
So that's, that's, that's what I would say to that. Anyway-
It is Patrick Swayze. The Swayze I said.
You said Patrick Swayze.
No, I said this Swayze.
You did? Well, good thing we're recording this. We'll go back.
Good thing we're, yeah, we can, we can go back to this.
Hey, you go back. You've set the record straight.
When you start editing the podcast version, this could be like,
I'm a liar. I knew it. I knew it. 100%.
Rewind 30 seconds.
I thought you were looking weird because I thought that all of a sudden like,
Patrick Swayze wasn't in that movie. I'm like, I went and looked it up and I'm like,
yeah, it's Patrick Swayze.
And Keanu? Busey's the best in that movie though.
Fucking Busey's awesome in that movie. Utah.
Around the corner. There's a sandwich shop. Best meatball sandwich I've ever had.
Is Gary Busey in that movie?
Oh yeah. I'm going back to, I'm going back to watch it.
I love Gary Busey.
He's Utah's partner. When he gets, when he wants, when they're doing the stake out and he wants him
to go get a, go get two meatball sandwiches. Utah. Give me two.
I think I need to, I actually need to, I need to go back and watch Dirty Dancing and Grease.
I think they were two cool movies.
And what was the other one?
Grease.
Grease? Okay. Okay.
Yeah man. Cool.
Be a 12 year old girl again. Love it.
100%. Do you sing along?
No.
Everyone sings along with Grease. Come on.
They got the sickest cars in that movie, man. It's fucking, you just can't get those cars anymore.
I should go back and watch Point Break. I haven't watched that movie in 20 years.
I bet you it still holds up.
So yeah. Go back to back with Dirty Dancing. Just do a Swayzathon.
Swayzathon.
Throw some ghost in there. I'm not as big a fan of ghost, but it's still good.
I did actually watch Roadhouse just a few months ago. Roadhouse is a good fucking movie.
Roadhouse is funny for the memes.
But a lot of memes floating around for Roadhouse, is there?
I think it started with that Family Guy thing where he just started kicking people and going,
Roadhouse.
Right.
It's a funny joke, to be honest.
But yeah.
I think that actually-
It's amazing how fast South Park is on this stuff. Like with, you know,
SBF and all that shit. South Park's always straight on to current events. They're pretty good.
It's good.
Well, they make them as events unfold, right? The episodes are literally made the day before
or something.
South Park is just like a living history of, you know, it's like literally the history books of
the world.
History books of shitposting, at least.
History will be told with South Park and schools in the 2400s.
In the post-apocalyptic rubble. So the final thing we actually got, we rugged ourselves,
Kaman, but who rugged who? Did I get rugged? I think I got rugged last week.
There was a rugged.
We talked about the results of the merch poll, right? So, and like a prat, I've actually
closed the results of the merch poll and get them back up.
Talking about the merch poll.
Talk amongst yourselves.
So I got my partner a coffee. I think she's still in bed.
I'm going to go and see if she started to drink it and steal it.
Okay.
So half the show, my like, oh, I need to just look up the results of this merch poll.
Null's reaction is I will also leave the chat.
That was like two layers of talks amongst yourselves. That was talks amongst yourselves
and Null's like, I'm going to leave. You guys talk amongst yourselves.
And I get up and shulties by himself.
Oh boy. Is that your suggestion for a sticker?
Talks amongst yourself?
No, that is that the chili peppers?
I don't know who that is, but that's an awful picture.
I don't know. It's a good picture though.
Okay. So the, we asked on Twitter last week before the 2022 award show,
whether we should do some merch because as people may know, some of the lads who are not,
yeah, who are not as lame as me are going to be in ETH for Denver, in Denver for ETH Denver,
next March, doxxed. If you have a grievance to air with them, you can find the person.
You say for wanted stickers and then yeah, merch. So we put a poll on Twitter or I put a poll on
Twitter, which had some of the statements from last year's game of nodes that were in the
spreadsheet. Notably, I forgot to put holistically wholesome on the list, but based on the poll,
I think it wouldn't have got much traction anyway, cause all the sweary ones won. So
the options were W A G T G A for we are all going to jail, drop in nines, which I know we're all
fans of the general public. We're not interested in that one. Fungible as fuck. They validate with
better values. Which was the runaway winner, the absolute runaway winner, fungible as fuck,
got double the votes of any other option. And I think that's the one that's been the most
runaway winner. Fungible as fuck got double the votes of any other option. And I think got more
votes than all of the others put together. Yes, it did. And then the final option was I dump shit
coins. You know, the kind of, then the kind of I see dead people sort of 1990s. What film was that?
Sixth Sense.
Kind of, yeah, kind of M Night Shemailan kind of vibe. The, the I dump shit.
Shemailan?
Featuring Patrick Swayze.
Well, okay, whatever. Featuring Patrick Swayze. So I dump shit coins was also pretty popular,
but, but was edged out by, well, I said edged out by, still got fungible as fuck got double the
votes. So, yeah. I thought you said that the we're all going to jail one was one.
No, you're jumping the gun. You're jumping the gun with a bit of a
Fuck sorry.
A bit of rigged election.
The gun is the goalposts are being moved.
The gun is that we, we actually don't listen to anything.
So people, people also overwhelmingly said a, a t-shirt or a hoodie was their desired means of
merchandise delivery. So we're not doing those, right?
Yeah. So we were kind of thinking, we were kind of thinking hoodies and stickers.
And we were thinking of basically rugging everybody and going with, we are all going to
jail on the revert on the rear of the hoodie, because you got to walk around in this fucking
thing. And I dump shit coins was hilarious. It's more of a, that's more of a t-shirt vibe.
This is the thing. As soon as people went hoodie over t-shirt, that changes the vibe because you
can put a lot of, you can shitpost on t-shirt in a way you can't on a hoodie. A hoodie is like a
I'm like, you wear that all the time. You have to wear it in all sorts of situations. You can't
just like put comfortable as fuck on a hoodie. That's not a thing you could wear.
Why not?
Yeah. That's not professional at all. Is it?
Yeah. You can put on a t-shirt.
It epitomizes the fucking show here.
What? Fungible as fuck.
Yeah. Like I said, I'd wear it completely in the style of this show. Why would you want to put
something like this?
It's a great sticker. It's a great t-shirt. I'm not sure it's a great hoodie.
So why don't we do a t-shirt as well?
Hey, we can expand the merch range. I'm not against that.
Expand the merch range.
I don't know that putting, we're all going to jail is a good thing to put on a fucking hoodie.
It's hard to have plausible deniability when you've put it on a fucking show.
Well, do you know the funny thing is, right? So the we're all going to jail
joke, I think originated in the flat that we were sharing in Lisbon nearly 18 months ago.
I can't remember, but I think one of the Stargaze guys said,
you do realize that if you walk around in a t-shirt that says we're all going to jail,
that's no longer plausibly deniable. I think it was Jorge or Shane that nixed that idea in the
first place. And then 12 months later, revisit it.
Here we are.
No, it's because we're more confident in our ability to not go to jail.
Maybe that one should just be a sticker, but it should definitely exist.
But I think it's like W-A-G-T-J in the kind of style of Wagme. It's kind of like,
it's a satire, right?
But it makes it perfect for a laptop.
Yeah.
If you go to Denver, have it in the back and people be like,
that's not Wagme. What the hell is that? Well, let me tell you about this place.
I'm a Juno validator.
I think the Fungible Spark is perfect.
I guess you're not a Juno validator.
Fungible Spark is a perfect sticker for a laptop as well. Hey, just for all of the people who
are listening and not watching, welcome Jake, the down maximalist, has joined us here in the bottom
right.
Have you had a haircut?
No.
Have you had a haircut in the last two years?
Looking a bit less bushy the last time you were on the show.
All right. Well, maybe it's like a 100 year flood happening here.
So it's probably just all the moisture in the air.
Oh, goddamn. Where are you? Are you in your house?
I'm in San Francisco. Yeah. And it's like fucking torrential downpours out outside.
I hope I don't lose power.
Where's the couch I'm going to be sleeping on, bro? What does that look like?
Surprisingly, it looks like a floor.
It looks like a floor. It looks like a rug in the fucking corner.
It's a bear market. You can't get couches here, you know?
It's a rug in the corner so we can fucking pull it out while I'm sleeping.
Fuck you.
You can roll up in it.
You do have a table, right? Or something.
Yeah, I got a table. Yeah.
You got a table.
Do you have a sofa?
No.
No sofa. Chair? Two chairs and a rug?
I have chairs.
Two chairs and a table. You could put the table in between the two chairs.
Yeah, I actually have two desks, which is great. You know, gotta have different places.
I'll pull it together.
Yeah, exactly.
Pull the two desks together. Fouton on top.
It'll be great.
Like how close to the chads of Silicon Valley are you?
Can you walk out and shake hands with Bezos?
I mean, Bezos is Seattle.
Yeah, Seattle.
I don't know. How the fuck would I know that?
That's like I'm Australian. I have no point in knowing what the hell that is.
It's all just one blob on the map to me with the funny shape.
But anyway, I'm looking forward to the trip. I need to
find, maybe I'll try and find Pupmos and sleep on his couch as well.
I'm like trying to work out where Pupmos' bunker is first.
Yeah, hang out with Pupmos. That'd be so sick.
I'm trying to string together some couches to sleep on. So far I've got one which has
already been rubbed, so I feel like it's not going well.
If you mean like crashing on Jabby's couch, then you can find Jabby pretty easily.
He's near lots of roundabouts, which narrows it down.
I would have to fight an entire clan of other people to be able to get a place to sleep in that house.
Yeah, I guess you'd need to fight at least eight Jabby Juniors, right? Six Jabby Juniors.
You would get a dog to cuddle with though, which would be nice.
That's true.
Maybe Winston can just chill.
Yeah, we don't have any dogs around here.
Yeah, so 2023 preview episode. Although we are already in 2023.
Is this the Reasons to be Chairful podcast?
Hell yeah.
Yeah, well, Reasons. Was there not a new main coin that came in?
I have no idea.
That's great news.
That's good news. That's going to pull us out.
Let's sing that from the rooftop.
Yeah, I was going to say, what's the thing we're most excited about in 2023, apart from getting promoted to Shift Manager at McDonald's?
Who's starting?
I feel like Null's got the energy there. Go on.
I missed it. I was reading it.
We will know what Jake's going to say.
Yeah, I don't even have to say it. I don't even know why I'm on the show. You know what I'm going to say.
Okay, Jake, do you want to go first?
I think we could train an AI to be Jake.
Someone could just say it for me. Alex, just say what I'm excited about this year.
No, no, no, no.
Well, I'm excited about...
Did he really just lag out right there?
I thought he just rushed.
He just froze. I was like, he just pulled the whip.
I just want to say the word. Everyone knows what's coming.
Jake is excited as shit about...
Come on.
About, you know...
Say the word.
Stargaze. I'm excited as shit about Stargaze. It's going to be great.
Fucking down.
Say the cash raise, Bart. Say the cash raise.
Just exactly like that scene in the Sims.
Say it.
Yeah, it's the Dallas, man. It's the Dallas.
Yeah, the V2 just around the corner, right?
Yeah.
Amidst dreams, right?
I think it's going to be...
New UI, right?
Yeah, all the things. So many things.
Many features, much features. Wow.
It's great.
So much wow. Tell me...
One thing I reckon is going to be cool is the payments.
Like the salary, like, you know, whole freaking...
But you know, to just manage that.
Yeah, I think it'll be easier and more transparent to see what all the different
dows are doing, what sub-dows are doing.
But I think it's also a good way for us to move forward.
We need vesting payments and stuff.
We need new ways of incentivizing contributors.
And I think that we'll start to see all those tools in action over the next year,
which I'm really excited about.
So has much been achieved in the way of like IBC dows?
Yeah.
So I'll give you an example like...
Oh, is he lagged out again?
No.
So, you know, there's the Chihuahua Dow, right?
Which actually like they IBC'd all of the Dow assets over to Juno and have the treasury on Juno.
Is there going to be like any like functionality in the future or you might even be,
whether you're working on it now, to like interact directly like with that blockchain over like IBC
or something? Or would it be a scenario basically where...
I'm thinking like non-WASM chains being able to do IBC stuff over there?
Yes.
Or do you need WASM?
We're trying to build in like support for Interchain accounts.
So we don't need WASM.
But however, the Interchain accounts stuff is kind of a little bit of a mess.
I'm not going to lie.
And there's different versions of IBC and people are using different versions of IBC.
And I think Interchain accounts are cool and have a lot of potential,
but the rollout for them has been kind of a clusterfuck.
I'm not gonna lie.
So Jacob hasn't successfully bumped all of Cosmos yet into the right IBC?
Well, it's also like the Interchain account standard changed a little bit actually too.
But I think it's like pretty like starting to get solidified now.
And yeah, that's something that you're going to be able to do is you're going to be able
to control an account on one chain from a DAO on a chain like Juno, for example.
So Interchain accounts is going to be a really big deal.
That will be awesome.
And you've successfully centralized the thing with an indexer, right?
Yes, definitely.
Though the way Noah did it, it's pretty interesting.
It uses the chain as a fallback.
So it's like the indexer doesn't load for whatever reason.
Say it gets blocked by the Australian government.
They don't want you looking at Kangaroo, DAO or whatever.
Whatever the hell it is.
You know, then it falls back to querying RPC nodes.
And then they'll just censor King nodes RPC and you're gonna lose points.
I don't know.
Count censor King nodes RPC.
What's the payment piece?
Is that actually the way it sounds like where a DAO can hold a set of funds maybe for community
dispersal or something like that?
And then based on state coins, you can approve proposals and those types of things for payment?
Is it kind of a centralized structure for that?
Yeah.
So DataAOv2 has a lot of new payroll features.
Which are really cool.
So you can vote to pay someone like a vesting amount.
There's a lot of different kind of configurations you can do there.
I mean, you can already vote to like, send someone money.
So you could send someone Juno or send someone USDC from your DAO treasury.
You can vote on those kinds of things.
But we're making it also so you can vote to instantiate these kind of vesting contracts.
We also have our sort of coordinate style retroactive rewards system that we actually
use in Doudou.
So at the end of every month, everyone writes down what their contributions were.
And we vote as a DAO on how valuable we thought those contributions were.
And then there's a set amount of tokens that goes out every month to contributors based
on how people voted.
And that achieves actually the same amount of money that you would get from a DAO.
So it's like, hey, what the fuck have people been doing?
You know?
Yeah.
And second of all, I think it's kind of like, you know, people are getting compensated based
more on what they did versus like, here's this payment that you just get up front.
And a lot of times, you know, you can't get that much money.
So you have to be able to get it.
You can't get it.
And then you can get it.
And then you get it.
You get up front, and a lot of times, you know, people don't follow through for whatever
reasons.
It's a good way to keep people accountable because you're only getting sort of paid
retroactively for what you did.
It's not like...
So I think that's going to be a really interesting thing.
You know, when it comes to like payroll and all these things, I don't think there's like
one right solution.
There's no one size fits all.
Everyone's going to want every like sub DAO or different DAOs are going to like want different
ways of kind of doing compensation.
So we do have staking actions as well.
So you like DAOs can delegate to validators, which I think will be really interesting.
And we have off the UI support, which is also going to be great.
So delegation style will be able to like use off the to manage delegations.
Was that was that delegations one basically put in there for the delegations to begin
with that like the functionality required for that?
Actually, I've always thought that Aussie is really fucking cool.
And yet there's no UI for normies to use it at all.
Because like, there's nothing in your Kepler wallet.
There's a few like things like yield most or like a few apps that like let you auto
compound staking rewards.
But that's it.
There's no other like Aussie UI.
And it's kind of a shame because it's one of the coolest features in the cosmos.
And so like, we're really hoping like with data VT to like have some of the first like
Aussie UI.
And I'm stoked to get people actually doing things with Aussie, aside from just
auto-compound staking rewards.
It's is that only for DAO related activities or that will have other functionality like
governance and those types of things that might be outside the DAO?
Yes.
I mean, we have it pretty generalized.
So it's not just for staking rewards.
And one of the there's a secret page in data VT if you go to like when it launches go to
slash wallet and you can use the same UI for like composing actions and proposals to like
just use like do individual transactions.
So you can use a UI to like instantiate a smart contract or use the UI to like, you
know, all those actions like when you make a proposal, you can just use those like with
your standalone wallet.
You don't have to do it as a DAO.
So I think that'll be really helpful for a lot of people that want to use features like
Aussie or like Mint-NFTs or like do all these like random things.
They don't necessarily want to do it as a DAO.
They could also make a DAO with just one person in it.
You know, that could be.
Right, right.
Yep.
That could be fun.
Cool.
Yeah.
The one-man DAO.
It's kind of the logical conclusion, isn't it?
In America, you can be a corporation of one person and therefore on the internet, you
could be a DAO of one person.
Yeah.
Kind of.
Well, I guess I mean, yeah, you can be a limited company in most jurisdictions with one person,
but the corporation is a stranger one, isn't it?
Because you've got like the corporation is like an embodiment of a abstract entity as
if it was a person.
And then as soon as it's like tiny again, you're like, wait, hang on a minute.
But yeah.
So how's like DAO been affected by what's been happening recently?
Like, because I know I don't really dip in the discord anymore because I'm too busy with
about a hundred different other things.
But like when I have done it seemed like, you know, kind of pretty active and busy despite
everything that's going on.
Yeah.
But yeah, that was pretty great.
I don't know.
We have like a really core group of contributors.
It's like really motivated to work on it.
And they're, you know, I think everyone would like, you know, for the market to go up, but
we're all surviving, you know, and that's kind of just like, yeah, the mood.
Everyone's really, really excited about like launching new stuff.
And I feel, I feel like my mind sounds really good.
I think we maybe lost like a couple, so we used to have like a fuck ton of contributors.
And now we've kind of lost some of like the outside contributors, not the like markets
like down 90%.
But like the core, the like our best contributors, our core contributors are all still like super
involved.
So that's what we really need.
Who is the main core contributors?
I know there's like Noah and Zeke and obviously yourself, like who are the other main guys
that, and girls?
Yeah.
Case Organic is a really great contributor to Doudou.
That's another amazing, amazing person.
Give them a follow on Twitter.
Elsehow or my friend Nick is also a like really regular contributor to Doudou.
Janita or Blue Note on, I think Blue Note on Twitter.
I don't know.
I have to check where Twitter handle is, but she also is like a very regular contributor
to Doudou.
And then there's kind of like the long tail of like others as well, like people that just
do like surprisingly, like actually Net-a-Dow, like a lot of the Net-a-Dow folks have been
like, like really good contributors.
They've like come in and like they test a lot of stuff.
Like one of their members, Whiskey, has like actually written some contracts and things
and like has been doing some UI work on some like features that are going to launch shortly
after V2.
So like V like 2.1 or whatever.
And I would occasionally drop in to like when people are doing like coding with the shared
screen and then just annoy them.
That's my contribution.
Thanks for helping the work get done.
No, thanks for the contribution.
Thanks for keeping everybody on task.
Now we're in this, trying to like fix some UI.
This is why.
I'd be like, what's this?
What does that do?
Why do you keep moving that?
What are you typing?
How would I do this other thing?
Can you get me an API so I can like get my transactions for taxes this year, please?
Yeah, exactly.
I've been bugging everyone.
I'm like, can I have access to your API?
Can I have access to your API?
Who has a full note?
Can this export a CSV?
Yeah, we do actually have, we're going to work on making it like available somehow.
But we do actually have like a full index of the entire Juno chain, which is exciting.
And so I actually, because I legit am trying to like figure out how to get all of my transactions.
Right.
And who was it in the discord that suggests, oh, I was Indigo from Artifact.
He's like, get a like, hire a scraper.
And I was like, what?
And then so I started looking on Fiverr.
And there's like all of these people who just scrape shit for like 30 bucks.
So could be in the market for a scraper.
Like literally go to Mint Scan, go to your thing and just like start pulling transactions out?
Yeah, just like right crawler bots to go like hit Mint Scan and then just crawl and
get all the info out of it.
Because Mint Scan actually shows the JSON in the transactions page.
You can basically just scrape the JSON for every single transaction so you can get the messages.
It'd be really nice if Mint Scan just had an API too.
It'd be really nice if Mint Scan just had fucking export to CSV.
Like it can't be much like, I don't know if they're not doing it because it'd just be so hard on their API.
It should be like a premium feature.
Yeah.
Like pay five bucks, get a CSV.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Like three minutes again, it would be.
Yeah.
That would save a lot of time.
That would save a fucking lot of time.
Yeah.
Like they've literally got the entire fucking Cosmos indexed.
Like I would pay a hundred Juno to get like the CSV for God's sake.
Or five bucks.
Yeah.
I mean, I would rather pay five bucks than a hundred Juno.
Although wait, yeah.
I mean, they are still slightly different.
They're different.
Like for me, for me to get that transaction is going to cost like for me to do it myself
would be like thousands of dollars worth of labor for me to get someone else to do.
It's going to probably cost me several hundred dollars anyway.
So, and I would, you know, for all the different wallets, I mean, if I, if I'm getting someone
to do it, I can't see myself getting out of it for less than a thousand bucks.
Yeah.
This is probably, probably about the measure of it.
Maybe more actually, I think it took five days to get, or three days or something like that,
to get something, to get reasonable strategy working for the first time
we had to do that for our quarterly tax return.
So Rama says save time and money.
Don't do taxes.
I love it.
Who wants the, we're going to jail hoodie.
Rama's like,
I actually do really want that hoodie. I really want that. I would have fucking wear that.
I remember that meme. That meme was so good.
We'll do the hoodies.
We'll do the hoodies. It's going to happen.
Do we need, do we need like some sort of design person or?
Yes.
Oh, he's going to have text.
Both.
We talked about this.
Rama's put his hand up for design.
We talked about this.
I don't know Rama. I don't want a fucking raccoon.
Yeah. We talked about this in the, in the group chat.
There's the design. I thought we just, the group chat was more about just doing the
flowery linen shirt version with, with cursive text.
Look up some good stuff.
Oh, I'm sure that sounds great.
I missed the Hawaiian shirt part.
Yeah.
I mean, I was joking about that, but now I realized I've unleashed, I've uncorked the bottle.
Well, the problem with the problem with like a floral or whatever design is that it kind of
obscures the text.
So thinking ahead, man.
Yeah.
We'll come up with some options.
We'll come up with some.
They speak here as well. Okay. So, but, but guiding,
guiding us back onto 2023.
My start now.
And the cosmos.
Yeah.
All right. Yeah.
Go ahead, please.
So we started there with Jake.
The answer was predictably because with D.
Yeah.
Also mesh security is going to be sick.
There was actually a question in the chat on whether, on where, where people are at with mesh
security, which last time I checked, we're still working prototype.
Yeah. So we're working prototype. The prototype has like come a long way.
But so like we've actually been talking a lot with the osmosis team and osmosis grants program is
providing a lot of funding for mesh security work, which is awesome.
So that's really going to kick off this year.
We have like Ethan and confio team is going to be like contributing a lot of stuff.
We have cosmology.
We're making this beautiful UI for it as well.
Because, you know, what good is like this complex cross staking protocol if you don't have the UI to
use it for normies.
Like, so that's like going to be part of it.
So like kind of the timeline is like Q1.
We're going to have like more things working on test nets, like Juno Osmo test net.
We're going to have like it also this really long, long architecture document written up about it.
A lot of people were like rushing to like, you know, mesh security came out and then all these
people like kind of like piled on, they were like doing their whole takes in this analysis on it.
And it's like, it's like, guys, we don't even have like a full like written up version of it.
You're just kind of like making up what mesh security is in your head.
And so, yeah, we're going to have Q1 test nets and, you know, kind of like this really nice
architecture doc with Q2, really looking to, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like,
you test in prod probably like just one way, like with like a low market cap chain, like,
I don't know, like Juno Joe or like Juno Wawa or whatever, whoever is down but like
do it like with real tokens.
And then after we've kind of like done that for a while and
gone through any audits or whatever, we want to, we're going to plan to deploy it Q3
with like Gino Osmo and maybe like some other chains as well.
Whoever wants to join the Interchain Alliance
or the Interchain Federation
or whatever the fuck we're gonna call it.
What would that look like as a validator?
Is it a modified binary or is it intended to be?
Yeah, this is the great thing about mesh security
is you don't have to do any extra work as a validator.
You just validate your chains.
Well, that sounds nice.
What's the benefit for validators to be using it?
You don't have to do anything.
You like, you-
Just happens.
It just happens.
You want to-
Well, what's the downside?
What are the downsides and upsides, right?
I think it just makes no change to your life as a validator.
Unlike ICS where you have to worry
about all this extra bullshit and oh, like,
oh fuck, I wanna run the Adam chain now.
I have to run like five different fucking chains.
And yeah, I just really don't think that that's,
it's been like hyped for so long.
And I feel like anytime something like Interchain security
is like hyped for so long without actually shipping,
like the reality is inevitably gonna be disappointing.
And I kind of, I guess this is optimism.
Anyway, I'm optimistic about mesh security.
I think it's gonna work out a lot better.
Yeah.
But it just like, I mean, it is a little bit of the,
the ICS thing is a little bit like the relay thing
where there are certain things where you have to run
additional software that are just completely intractable.
Like they should be separate software
because they are doing something
like fundamentally different.
And then there are some things where you're like,
is this complexity worth the trade off?
Like that's the big one on oracles
that I think I'm still not, you know,
there are obviously reasons why a lot of oracle use cases
can't be done in a smart contract context.
But I don't know, obviously we had,
we've had the noise podcasts on here.
And obviously their approach to how they do randomness
and stuff is really, really interesting
and being able to do it with just smart contracts
is really, really cool.
And there, I think you're gonna see increasing,
I don't know, probably there's gonna be more use cases
like that that come along where people figure out
a way of doing them that don't involve
running additional software on top of
what validates have to do anyway, because yeah,
I just don't see that the future is a more complicated world
for the majority of validators.
The future has to be more validators
running less complicated software, right?
Yeah, I think that that's the future.
More validators running less complicated software.
And then they can really focus on, you know,
like scaling the, it's complicated enough to deal with
like all the different aspects and all the different storage
and all the different chains and all the different,
like other services you might provide on top,
like RPC nodes and load balancing of RPC nodes.
And like all this stuff is really complicated.
And like anything extra, like it's just, yeah,
kind of noise to me.
And so actually this is one of the other things
I'm really optimistic for in 2023.
And I'm sure the fray, like, you know,
you're also really excited about this is like,
I'm really excited about like the movement around,
it's kind of growing around CWSDK or Cosmos SDK.
Just like get rid of like Cosmos SDK.
Thank you for everything you provided to like the inner chain,
but like everything has its time and it kind of sucks.
And I think the, there's a lot of potential to,
and I think I'm really hoping that by like the end
of this year, the progress on like CWSDK is just gonna,
it's gonna be like starting to look really exciting.
I don't know what the first chain is gonna be
or when that's gonna happen.
I think it's way too early to say,
but I think it's kind of the right move,
just like these EVM chains.
A lot of them are just EVM chains.
And it's like, let's just make
a awesome Wasm virtual machine.
And that could just power so many different use cases.
Yeah, well, I mean, the composable FI1
is a good step in the right direction in that case,
like a general purpose Cosmos and VM.
Yeah.
I mean, it's almost kind of funny
it's come out when it has,
because I think I do wonder if that had been out
and stable when the CWSDK effort started,
whether that development effort would have gone
in a slightly different direction.
It's hard to say, because it's been a little while
since I've looked at the,
I've been following on the chat,
but it's been a little while
since I've tried to contribute anything to it.
So I'm probably a bit out of date,
but it does seem like the more general
and the more abstract to that can be the better
for that project's longevity.
And also just like a lot of the problems,
a lot of the problems which are solved
by additional Wasm bindings or by things like T-grade,
if everything's a contract,
you actually just don't have that problem anyway,
because there's no difference between native
and contract execution layer,
which obviously has a security implication,
which isn't super cool,
but it does simplify a lot of things
about the application execution environment, right?
Yeah, totally.
I think it just simplifies things.
I think if you like, everything is complex enough,
so whenever you can simplify things in code,
it's actually better.
One of the things I like about smart contracts,
as opposed to this kind of monolithic SDK,
Ruby on Rails thing we've built,
is that smart contracts are really isolated
little bits of logic,
and it's easy to test and reason about them.
And I feel like the Cosmos SDK code is too much of this,
it's like spaghetti.
Each module is fucking wired into all these other modules
at the lowest level, and it's a nightmare.
Well, the way the capability stuff works,
where it's all just dependency injection all the way down,
it's like, well, it's dependency injection,
but it's kind of not really called that.
This is the thing, I'm trying to be like,
there's a huge amount of effort
by some very, very clever people on this.
There's a lot of rewriting work going down.
I get all of that, I recognize all of that,
and it's very easy to criticize from the sidelines.
So I am kind of aware of all of that.
But at the same time, it is also,
there are a lot of things about the structure
of the application that don't feel
like modern application architecture,
in the way that smart contracts are much more close
to where the rest of the industry is,
which is Kubernetes, throw some Docker containers at it,
black boxes that you reason about individually,
and then you move on.
Lambda execution runtimes,
where you literally just write 30 lines of code,
write your 80 different pieces of functionality,
throw them at AWS, GCP, whatever,
there's your application.
That's kind of where the rest of the industry is,
that's where the interesting state-of-the-art applications
are, and the closer you are to that
rather than Ruby on Rails,
which is a much older sort of paradigm,
probably the better in terms of scalable architecture, right?
Yeah, anyway, that's something I'm really optimistic
for this year, is the continued development of Cosmosm,
and just really, I think,
asking some of the hard problems about the SDK,
and looking at ways we can really take
what I think are the best things about Cosmos,
like what's the best thing about Cosmos?
I think it's unquestionably, obviously,
obviously is the best thing about Cosmos,
if I had to pick one thing.
And then I think the second thing would be,
I really do think Cosmosm is the best
smart contract framework at the moment.
And it could get even better,
and I think it's really great that we're seeing
this kind of cross-chain adoption of Cosmosm.
Even there's an avalanche project
that's looking at adding support for Cosmosm,
which is pretty sick.
And then, of course, Polkadot and Composable Finance.
The traction around Cosmosm is really good,
and it's still early days,
and there's not that many Cosmosm developers,
but I think there will increasingly be more and more of them.
And let's not forget, because it's Wasm,
because it's WebAssembly,
we can also add support for other languages too.
So TypeScript, or a technical assembly script,
or Golang, or, you know.
And there's gonna be work to be done.
There's actually a team that's already working
on some of these things.
So that'll be exciting to see as well,
kind of going into the new year,
it's just how Cosmosm continues to evolve,
and how best practices continue to be figured out.
And I think things like CWSDK are really important,
because if we can isolate Cosmosm as a VM
from the rest of the Cosmos SDK,
we could really get some huge performance improvements.
Thanks. Yeah.
Well, also just the CWSDK is built on a user's Merck,
no mix implementation of the Merckle storage,
and that's based on RocksDB,
so it's faster than IAVL, like when you benchmark it.
So like right there, you've got it for free.
And also because it's Rust, like,
and well, okay, not just because it's Rust,
but also because of the way it's relying on other libraries
for specific things and things in the standard library.
It feels a lot less risky, like,
so the implementation is obviously in no mix,
it's Merck, great, but like I did quite a bit
of looking into it to try and get my head around
how that will fit together as part of like
the early CWSDK stuff.
Other people actually did the big brain stuff,
obviously MapM, MapBell, and Larry did the actual
implementation for that stuff,
but what's interesting about that implementation
versus the SDK implementation for that stuff is how much,
I mean, I'm biased, right?
I understand Rust better, it suits my mindset better,
but like how much easier it is to read that code base
for what it's doing, like the iterators
and all that kind of stuff versus, you know,
what's in the SDK and the kind of the Go version.
But yeah, it would be a bit of a shame
to abandon the Rust part, I think,
as more languages come out, because I think that
there is this like sweet spot with Rust being,
having like a kind of close to research language
level compiler, but still being like quite easy to pick up
for the average developer.
So what, because one of the other things
that I've been looking into recently is like Move,
and you know, kind of Aptos and SWE,
smart contract framework, and they have, you know,
formal verification and all that stuff built in.
But although it's not that complicated
to work with those languages,
I do look at those a little bit,
and I get a little bit of the same feeling that I got
when I first was introduced to something like Haskell,
which is like, oh yeah, this is clever.
Yes, this actually solves problems that people have
if they get their head around it.
And yes, it probably is better than the alternative,
but as we know, NASA use Haskell for making sure,
you know, space probes don't crash.
But for the average developer, they just go,
oh, I just take the bugs.
I'll just, I can't be bothered to learn this.
And I wonder if cause and reason with Rust
sits in the sweet spot where people can be bothered
to learn it, and they get some of the benefits
of the safety and all that kind of thing
that Rust just sort of brings out of the box,
but it doesn't have that extra layer of,
oh, okay, let's go engage in the brain time.
I do think it's kind of like a sweet spot.
And it's funny you mentioned formal verification.
I was actually just talking with Zeke yesterday
about how we can improve cosmolism testing
and actually add some very formal verification
like kind of features to it,
like kind of inspired by like TLA plus
and all this kind of stuff.
And I think we've got a really good plan for it.
And we're gonna try to like introduce
like this new testing framework
on one of the future like smart contracts we work on.
So I think Rust does kind of hit,
sit in the sweet spot where it's very safe
and it's very powerful.
And yet it's about as user friendly as you can get
for something that's like so safe and powerful.
I also think Wasm WebAssembly is also
in this kind of sweet spot of like,
it's really, really performant,
like a lot more performant than like the EVM for example.
But at the same time,
like a lot of different things compile to it.
Like if you're in Solana,
you know, they use like Berkeley packet filters,
a lot less libraries compile to that.
So that's gonna like really restrict
like the kinds of things that you can do
and sort of like external software packages you could use.
So like Wasm is this thing that's like very, very performant.
It's really, really fast.
A lot of languages compile to it, which is also great.
I think it's good to give people options.
Like sure, if you're making like a DeFi protocol
that's gonna control like a billion dollars,
probably should write that in a language like Rust
or something like Scala or, you know,
like something that has a really strong type system
and the compiler will scream at you
if you like do anything wrong.
But if you're just-
I think you'd probably Rust,
Rust I have a Scala at this point
cause Scala is still pretty fucking permissive.
Yeah, anyway, you read it in like a language
that is like well-suited towards that thing.
But if you're just like working on like a game or whatever,
it's like fine.
Like I think we should give developers tools to,
you know, depending on like how crazy
the thing they're trying to make is.
Yeah.
So the question is like with
on kind of utility and stuff that's coming out this year,
like we've talked to several of the most recent episodes
about like, you know, when we see more better use cases
and you know, you did a talk recently, didn't you?
A case at the, at Elshouse unit.
What's the correct term in academia?
Department?
Yeah, is it, Brayden?
Yeah, it's like a,
Department? Department?
It was at Berkeley.
It was, yeah, the center for long-term cybersecurity.
I don't know, like whatever.
Yeah, so department, I guess, right?
And a lot of this discussion is around like, you know,
the balance between where we are now and crypto utility
and all this kind of other stuff.
And like, there's this broader conversation
we've been having on the show for a few weeks,
like maybe for the last month or so about like, you know,
what are the use cases that we're gonna see
that actually make the whole party worthwhile, right?
And so that discussion you were having was about
whether or not DAOs make the whole party worth having,
right?
And, you know, we're also looking for other use cases,
you know, coming forward.
And the question is now, like,
if this crash was the dot-com bust moment for crypto,
then most of the cool shit,
most of the stuff that endured happened after that stage,
after the really big collapse of the hype cycle
in the late 90s.
But the question is,
is that actually what we've just been through,
or is this just another little freeson of what's in store?
And what are the things that people are gonna build, right?
Because like you said, some people are building DeFi stuff,
which, whatever, I could give a shit about a lot of the time.
But, you know, a lot of people are building games,
they're building all sorts of other stuff.
So people need to like, almost like,
I think NFTs are great.
And I think people need to take the hype out of NFTs.
They put all this extra fucking baggage on like the term,
and it's fucking dumb.
Like, I hate these like collector series,
and you expect value to go up.
Here's an idea.
What if like artists, like, you know,
like musicians that wanna sell their music digitally,
or like people that wanna sell eBooks or publications,
or, you know, just like sell content, you know?
Sell, like sell, like make like Bandcamp with NFTs,
but don't even fucking call them NFTs.
Just like use it as a way to cut out the middleman.
Like right now, like on Bandcamp,
they have pretty reasonable fees.
They're like 10% of digital sales.
Like we could crush that with Bandcamp.
You could drop it down to like 1% or like 0% commission.
Right, but then if they don't cash that out
on a reasonable time scale, then-
Then just fucking use also like USDC or whatever, you know?
It's like just use the crypto rails, you know?
Or like, you know, like give people options.
Like, you know, like I think that
there's been a lot of industry that's trying to like do
like too much new stuff at one time.
Like what if we like took these concepts like of crypto
and just like, you know,
don't even package it as fucking NFTs.
It's just my digital song, my digital art.
Like, you know, like Ramar just wrote,
but like on a blockchain.
And, or like my ebook, you know,
it's like decentralized publishing.
And-
I mean, that's kind of what Audius tried to do.
And we had, you know, we, we,
it's quite trivial to build those primitives into,
like we had those primitives in Howl as well.
There was no UI for it,
but like by the time you're sticking stuff on IPFS, right?
Or indeed any CDN, IPFS just being the kind of,
the anointed web three acceptable one, you know,
it's relatively straightforward to publish any kind of
content.
But the problem becomes that it's the scaffolding around it,
right?
It's the accepting the payment and then transferring the
thing without other people having access to the thing.
And then you're back into hard stuff on our current model,
which is how do you have things that are pseudo private,
right?
I'm not saying these are intractable problems,
but they are, they're not-
I don't think they're intractable problems.
And that's why I think that if people really put their
minds together, like these are like actually kind of like
really great, like real world use cases.
Everyone's like crypto, what's with these like tradable,
like JPEGs, like give me something that's like practical.
And it's like, well,
I think content distribution is practical.
You know, everyone talks about like ticket sales.
Everyone talks about like, you know,
the concept of communitility, like why,
why like buy like an album is like an NFT is cause maybe then
that gives you the right to like create,
like get exclusive merch or whatever that you can only get
if you've like bought the album.
I don't think a lot of people are like, so,
so the big, one of the biggest trends of, you know,
you know, like the kind of two thousands was people going
back to like vinyl and stuff like that.
But it was because of like the physical tactility of that
different experience, right?
I don't, obviously there was a small group of fans who like,
we'll just like fucking chew up anything, right?
But I'm not sure that like fans are looking in general
for like a digital experience, you know,
like those kind of overdeveloped,
I think record companies think that stuff is cool.
I think bands go along with it.
I'm not sure how, how much over-engineering it is
for a use case that doesn't really exist.
What do you mean like digital experience?
I'm talking about like real world things,
but like real world things that are like mediated
by like these NFT tokens.
Sure, but like, again, the, the,
the middle man in this case, yes, is charging fees
and all that sort of stuff, the ticket seller,
but you know, you can also just sell your tickets
on We Got Tickets, right?
And they charge you like 5%.
Like, so you don't have to use Ticketmaster.
That's a business decision that people are doing probably
because their label is, is partly owned by Ticketmaster.
It's more about the corporate.
And you're never, and you're never going to get
those people, but there's, I think,
I think there's entry points.
There's like cracks that are opening it all up.
Cause like these services are really shitty.
Like look at eBooks, like it's such a weird fucking market.
And I don't know exactly like where you break in,
but all these publishers have just been absolutely fucked
by Amazon.
You know, Amazon charges 30 to 60% to transmit a fucking file
over the internet.
And like authors don't make a ton of money.
Like that's fucking outrageous.
And like,
it's way worse than you think, trust me.
Yeah. And like, here's an opportunity and you know,
you just, it's like a really fucking simple product.
You could even just like, you know,
build this on top of like Stargaze, for example.
You just like, you know, like have a story list,
the like, you know, eBooks for sale, you know,
you like integrate some like web two APIs
so that you can get sent to their like, you know,
no occur there, whatever, like fucking E Ink device or,
you know, they just,
you can also just download the PDF or the eBook
or whatever.
It's fine.
It's like, and then you just start going to publishers
and just being like,
Hey, what if you want to like integrate this into your,
like, you know, into your website?
And so here's some,
here's some widgets and now you can integrate it
into your website and guess what?
You don't have to pay any,
like you don't have to pay 30 to 60% to Amazon, you know?
And you might like, it's, it'll be slow at first,
but you know, these things like,
I feel like it's inevitable because I think that
the tech companies are fucking gouging all these publishers,
whether it's in music or like in, you know,
definitely in like books, I feel like.
And so like, you know, if, if you make it like easy enough
for them, like eventually like the like decentralized
self publishing movement will like really take off.
I kind of agree with you,
but I disagree on where the content will live.
Like I just, I think that the thing that is the value
out there is like, I launched a smart contract
that powers my store and then I am the mediator, right?
I just plug in a backend and then my,
my backend is just a web two service running on AWS
that when it gets the act saying, yo,
transaction run to the blockchain,
you've been paid brother, it then fires,
fires off the email with the PDF, with the pub, whatever.
But like that content, like the EPUB or whatever,
that kind of content doesn't need to live on the chain.
Or even a reference to it.
Why does it need to?
Cause the thing that matters is the payment, right?
Cause this is all about,
this is all about taking control of like, like you said,
if you're eliminating middlemen and that sort of thing,
what you really need is the payment infrastructure
that doesn't involve a banking provider really.
Yeah.
Or the large corporate.
Or you can think about it, like,
if you really want to be like, you know, a boot looker,
you can just be like, hey, like USDC,
it's basically a banking provider and it's way easier to use
than like Visa or MasterCard.
And it's also cheaper to use too.
Like you don't have to pay 2.5% of a transaction fee.
That's like. Yeah.
Well, I mean, well, yes and no.
I mean, USDC couldn't even fucking process a transaction
to our business bank in the UK.
So they, meh, I think they're kind of a bit overrated.
I'd rather get paid in just a crypto and cash out,
but then that's kind of back to the problem, right?
Is that like, if you make it as decentralized as possible
to just a wallet, it would definitely 100% work,
unlike USDC, which doesn't definitely 100% work
if you're going through that thing.
Wait, USDC works great.
Or are you talking about like,
do they have some like business service
or something they use or?
Their internal tooling is kind of shitty,
but then, you know, the flip side of that
is you can get paid in USDC
and then withdraw it from Kraken, which will work.
And yeah, see, there you go.
Like that's great.
And then there's like, there's like,
there's Transact, there's Cato.
Like I think that there's a lot to be said this year of like,
you know, what's the crypto use cases?
Like just do fucking simple shit
and just like do it more efficiently, you know?
Cut out the middleman, like don't even suck,
like have to like create like, you know,
like a new term for it, you know?
We don't have to be like, NFTs, DAOs, ASICs, you know,
like just like constantly throwing acronyms at people,
you know?
Just like.
Well, yeah, if you give people something they want or need,
they'll just hand over their money and go, ah, cheers.
Yeah, also by the, like this is also,
I feel like something that we hear in crypto,
like time and time again, like every fucking cycle is,
when are the use cases gonna come?
When are the use cases gonna come?
And people don't really see like,
how things have been like fucking progressing.
Like they asked this because they're just like normies
and not involved in like, not like seeing like the drastic,
like when Bitcoin started,
it was literally just this like really shitty payment
network and now we have entire financial systems.
Like crypto can run entire financial systems.
Soon it's gonna be like crypto can run like entire
governments, like crypto can run like market,
marketplaces where people can sell and like even earn
royalties from media.
And people are still asking like, where,
where are the use cases?
Where are the use cases?
And it's just like, it's like,
it's kind of this like slow thing.
And then it's like, it's like that slowly, slowly,
and then suddenly all at once kind of thing.
Well, at the moment, it's still like, you know,
the whole thing is sort of still just beta testers
and developers trying things out, right?
It's like still ultra early and like, yeah, man,
like it's the type of thing where you have to build
something, try it on, see if people like it, go from there.
And like, there's gonna be tons of shit that people build
that people are just gonna hate and then they're gonna fail.
And it's gonna be the odd thing that gets traction.
And when you like get more and more of those odd things
that gain traction, you're gonna like attract more
and more users to the ecosystem.
And eventually you'll hit some sort of critical mass
where people talk and talk and it'll just exponentially
explode, but it's gonna take time.
It's gonna take still a long time from now.
And it's not gonna happen overnight.
Even then, like, I guess the flip side is like,
you'd be surprised at what ideas are being taken
from the ecosystem and are actually like then getting
executed elsewhere, right?
Because there's ideas that might not be, might not work
or be too early or whatever.
And other people are going, oh no, but we can apply
that lesson or whatever elsewhere.
Like, I remember like how good like early Bitcoin
or earlyish Bitcoin, like early 2010s,
it was actually relatively quick.
Like, I mean, you could accept a payment in like five minutes
which is not perfect, but you know, this was at a time
when you didn't really get good online banking apps.
Yeah, there was no Venmo then.
Yeah, there was no Venmo.
A settled payment took ages.
And I remember like the, you know, here's a QR code,
pay me or like buying a pizza with Bitcoin, QR code,
bam, done.
And I remember that being like a way better mobile
experience than any bank.
And then in the UK, certainly like Monzo, Starling, Tide,
others, Challenger Banks came along and they made
that experience just seamless for banking.
Like sign up by saying, I would like a bank account,
bam, you're done.
All that kind of stuff was completely like a revelation.
I think actually it was Ben Davis who is in the chat
who said, oh yeah, one of the early investors of Monzo
or one of the founders was a crypto guy.
And you're like, okay, there you go.
That's the answer is that somebody took the idea
and went, the masses aren't ready for that.
But they go, oh, well, but look, these payments
are more seamless.
They're easier to use at the moment.
They're not quick, but the UI is better.
What of these lessons can I take and apply elsewhere?
And they go and start an actual bank,
dealing in pounds sterling and it's a huge,
billion pound success.
So you're also just like, some of the successes
in crypto won't happen in crypto.
They will actually happen elsewhere,
but maybe something else will get improved.
Maybe.
I tend to think that crypto has forced banks to evolve
and improve their services because when Bitcoin
first came out, sending money, like you say,
from one person to another was dog shit
and took at least a day, right?
I'm not sure what it's still like in America,
but in Australia, it took a whole,
it took a fucking day to send something minimum.
And now we have instant transfers.
And I'm pretty sure that is just trying to stay ahead
of the curve on crypto and trying to evolve,
because the whole system was ancient
and no one was motivated to do anything about it
because it was a status quo
and there was no competition for that.
So all of the banks got together
and created a new protocol with the interbank communication
to be able to actually make that happen.
So I think crypto is like pushing normal finance
as well as the whole crypto industry moving along separately.
So I don't know.
I think there's gonna be a lot more things like that.
And if all crypto does is improve
the traditional finance landscape,
well, I mean, that's a win anyway, right?
Well, I mean, so right now international payments
still go through, I think the smart system,
which is still hand done everywhere.
So I think it's a win anyway.
But the system, which is still hand done,
every single transaction that's international
is done through this one thing, which is why it's still-
Swift. Swift, thank you.
That's the one, smart Swift, I was close.
And so if that's eventually overthrown because of crypto,
I mean, that's a good thing just in itself.
I mean, Swift is kind of the reason why,
what is it, remittance costs are so high
because they need to go through something.
So they end up going through, what is it?
That cash payment place, Western Union,
they go through Western Union frequently
instead of going through banks.
Crypto has helped us that.
Yeah, I think- So initially that was like-
There's like a regulator even has an accelerator thing
saying that like we will,
if you are a business looking at using this technology
for this use case, we will potentially work with you.
But by the way, FYI, you're gonna get regulated as fuck
because you're handling real, real fucking money.
But we are kind of like, we recognize this is gonna be
one of the first things that somebody wants to do
with this tech.
The picture is literally on the FCA's website.
So one of the first things that,
well, one of the original use cases for XRP
was cross border payments.
And they pushed that pretty hard.
And there are like a bunch of networks
that are pretty decent that could handle
like shit loads of transactions
and would be good for that.
Like XRP is probably one of them.
I'm not saying that I like the XRP network
because well, Ripple loans like 60% of the coins there.
So it's not fantastic in that regard.
But there's also that other one that's like,
shit, I can't remember the name of it now, but it's-
Stellar, is that what you're thinking?
XLM?
No, I don't know.
No, it's like funded by Google and Amazon
and all of those people.
And it's, the way it works is like crazy weird.
It's not like per block finality.
It's like uses this gossip protocol.
So you actually don't talk to all of the validators.
You tell some of the validators some information
and then they just pass it on in a Merkle tree.
And then you end up with this crazy, fuck, what is it called?
Is that Hedera Hashgraph?
Yeah, Hashgraph, yeah.
It's pretty fast and like can handle shit loads of transactions.
Like networks like that would be good
for cross border transactions.
And I think that that's a good use case for those.
But they have to be able to store the money.
And I, for example, XRP could never be that
because you can't invest a heap of money in XRP
because it's all basically owned by someone,
at least half of it's owned by one entity.
So you would never adopt that as a global sort of token.
So, and that's the other thing, like you're going to make,
if one of these networks becomes like the de facto
for like all of these cross border transaction situations,
the initial issuer is going to be fucking ultra rich
unless you like come up with some sort of situation
where, I don't know, it's like,
you're going to centralize a lot of money.
Like even things like USDC, right?
It becomes a thing where you're swapping
like a US dollar currency for the virtual equivalent, right?
And that's fine, but unless like you just centralize
all that currency in one big ball.
So, in my mind, I'm thinking like a situation
where you need to actually sacrifice,
like a real world currency
in order to get the virtual equivalent,
but still recognized as a legal tender
is probably the way that like you could get
that distribution to work without having some person
or entity that just gets ultra rich from it.
So like, kind of like how Bridgeworks,
you take your US dollars and you burn it into like,
the central bank equivalent.
So the actual real money supply becomes less.
This sounds kind of like a central bank digital currency
is what you're describing.
Yeah, so we need that.
I was thinking the same thing.
It has to be, yeah, it has to be,
yes, it's sporty in the chat said,
like a central bank digital currency.
Wait, did I just invent something that already exists?
What an idiot.
Yeah.
Delegated king notes.
But the other question here was,
so there's two ways of going about it, right?
Like you'd have a proof of stake network or whatever
where validators are obviously gonna be regulated
in that scenario if it's a central bank digital currency.
And they're probably gonna be in multiple jurisdictions
because they're gonna be trying to run this.
And who's gonna run it?
Probably the US government because dollars,
petrodollars, so it's the clearinghouse for everything.
And that would still probably be better
than the current system,
but it's not exactly the glorious anarchist future
that we were all hoping for.
The glorious anarchist future is definitely, it's happening.
History is not with you on that one, I will say,
but we can hope,
but overwhelmingly hit the historical record shows that.
I think it'll probably most likely be a mix.
Like there's gonna be like central bank digital currencies
or whatever.
But the cool thing about IBC is like that allows
like this way for these countries to connect their CBDCs
and to connect with like independent blockchains,
whether those be blockchains run by like private companies
or decentralized ones.
And so I feel like, you know,
one of the things about the internet blockchains vision
is that we'll actually have multiple competing visions.
Like the anarchists, like crypto anarchists,
blockchains will live alongside like the state blockchains
and will live alongside like private enterprise ones.
And it'll all be like this like swarming massive cryptographic
state machines that can send verified packets
between each other.
Sounds very energy efficient.
Yeah.
Well, I was gonna say, if you,
if any of the- Well, if you think about it,
you know, we run this internet right now
with like a fuck ton of infrastructure.
It's not that different.
This is not like Bitcoin mining, you know,
and the algorithms are getting better and better.
Also, you know, like a central bank digital currency,
they might only need like 20 nodes or like, you know,
they don't need to be as decentralized as like, you know.
Well, I was gonna say that in this model,
the more anarchist you are,
the more likely you want proof of work.
The more you are a central bank digital currency,
the more likely you can tolerate proof of stake.
Like if we've, if I, you know, like joking aside,
if you were like long-term gonna hang your hat
on a currency to clear payments,
like as in we are gonna build band camp on a blockchain,
are you gonna do it on a proof of stake chain
where people can vote away your assets?
Like if you're Universal Records or whoever,
if you're like a really big band, if you're like-
If you're Universal Records, you launch it.
If you're Radiohead, right?
If you wanna do in rainbows again, right?
You're Radiohead, you wanna do it.
You're gonna do payments clearing on a blockchain.
There's millions of dollars, right?
We're talking about, are they gonna be like,
we'll do it on a proof of stake blockchain?
Yeah, they totally will.
Cause like, I feel like the scenario that you mentioned,
Alex is like basically like only happened one time
and we all fucking lived through it.
But it's like, that's like the only time
I can think of it's ever happened.
Right, but it's gonna become more common.
It was a lot more, it was a lot more nuanced.
It could become more common,
but I think that any place where it becomes like common
without like sufficient like justification,
like it's not gonna attract.
Like I think proof of stake, like people won't even,
like if anything, the universal musics of the world
will run their own chains and they'll just like interact
over IBC to the other like kind of more decentralized
networks when needed or to things like central banks,
like central bank digital currencies
or like other tokens or whatever.
So all that's really happening here then
is the privatization of money
because typically privatization occurs when people
or companies lose faith in some sort of institution
to act in their interests.
And so they start building infrastructure of their own.
Or, you know, there is also an efficiency case,
but I think it's more the efficiency case.
Yeah, but then that has its own,
the efficiency case obviously can have its own implications
in the kind of longer spread
because the efficiency case often does bear out,
but then a lot of money gets made
and then it has secondary and tertiary political effects.
Look at, so the reason this is in my head
is specifically I've been reading Corporate Warriors
by I think P.W. Singer, which is about the privatization
of the military after the end of the Cold War.
And I was like, holy fucking shit,
there's something about this that is tingling with timbers
about the way corporations will enter this space.
And what you've just described about corporations
and IBC is like, yes, that is really, really similar
to how very large corporations expanded horizontally
into, hey, look, there's this growth industry,
it's called killing people.
You know, it turns out it's quite profitable,
I'm actually, you know, I'm simplified.
I agree.
Well, Portland's kind of doing something right now,
right now with that with the police,
the police are doing what's called a slow down
where they basically just don't answer the phone
in order to protest, defund the police movement.
But anyway, ignoring that,
there's a lot of private security firms
that are coming about basically filling in that gap,
but it is only exclusively for businesses, right?
They're not gonna be hiring private security
that happens for the everyday person.
And so we're getting more crimes around like property crimes
because our homeless population has gone up something
like 30% in the last year.
And businesses are like, oh, these things are showing
up pretty good because they now have their private security,
but everyday people are like, this kind of sucks because now-
Right, because the problem is whoever's prepared to pay
or able to pay then is able to not only be exempt
from the problem, but also define how the problem is viewed
and whether it's even defined as a problem.
And that is the, there's a stats in that book somewhere
about private security where I think it was talking
about in like the issue of the year 2000,
there were already twice as many private security guards,
come from if it was in the UK or the US as there were police.
And that was about, and that was like directly,
you could like, you look at the graph where you're like,
reduction in funding of police and probably the UK actually,
because I feel like the US police-
Yeah, we don't reduce funding for police.
We just give them more money and we give them
like military weapons.
More tanks to shoot protesters.
That sounds like it came from the UK, yeah.
Yeah, in the UK, they probably just like,
oh, just don't fund them at all.
But also- Yeah, we love cops here.
Yeah, I think that probably in the UK,
what they did was defund them, but then it also said,
oh, but we expect you to beat up students,
but you'll have to do overtime in order to do it,
but we're not gonna pay you for the overtime.
So we'll hire into private security to beat them up as well.
Something like that, I don't know.
I'm probably, that's probably not-
How did we get on with this tangent?
This was-
Privatization of money.
Well, I think that this also gets to another thing
that I think we're gonna start seeing more and more is,
and Sporty put it in the chat is like,
it's not just proof of work, it's not just proof of stake.
Those are the most popular models right now,
but there's also POA, which is supported in a tenement
or proof of authority, where you just say like,
this node, this node, this node,
they're running transactions on the network.
That network could use IBC assets like USDC
or whatever sanctioned bootlicker coin you want,
or also cool coins like Juno.
So that's kind of, that's how XRP works
is like no staking in XRP,
it's just a list of accepted nodes.
Yep, exactly.
They just, yeah, it's like everyone agrees on a list
and then that's the list and then no one else can join.
Yep.
Like the thing is, it's not the end of, like the,
yeah, I don't think it's the end of the world.
You know, you can pay your bills, whatever you pay your bill.
It's kind of like, okay, so what it reminds me of is like,
if you go, okay, well, the currencies themselves
are a little bit of a distraction,
they're just a privatization of currency.
And you go, okay, the blockchain just detects it.
And you go, well, okay, look at the use case in Web2,
you go, well, a bunch of them are still gonna be
fundamentally better served by Web2 tech.
Like nothing in Web3 is gonna displace streaming data stores
because it's just a fundamentally different use case, right?
Like CERN, CERN are not gonna be like,
ah, we need to process the large hadron collider data
onto a blockchain.
Doesn't fucking make sense.
It's throw away data, it's logs, right?
They're always gonna use a different database technology.
And like, but in the same way, there's like,
you know, the use cases for these things
may just be completely,
just like the use cases for the underlying tech,
like the actual blockchain as a database,
like there are different database technologies.
Web2 will probably always be run off
of slightly different stuff to Web3, to the interchange.
Fuck Web2 and Web3, it's such shit names.
Yeah, fuck that shit. The interchange will always
be run off of, you know, consensus stores.
Web2 will likely always be run off of columnar type
or no SQL data stores or whatever.
And then you go, okay, well actually by the same measure,
like a central bank digital currency
in which you pay your taxes is likely to be
a particular type of thing with these particular properties,
a privatized currency for different things.
You know, whether that's privatized currency
issued by your residence association
for the building you live in,
or whether that's for some other thing,
they're gonna be completely heterogeneous
and they have different use cases.
Maybe that's fine.
Maybe I'm freaking out over nothing.
I don't know.
It's gonna be interesting and scary
to see how it pans out, I guess.
That's just life. Life is interesting and scary.
Yeah, that's why I try to leave the house too much.
That's what this whole computer program,
I think, was supposed to be about.
But it turns out, you can't escape it.
Yeah. It comes to you.
Okay.
Yeah, anyway, sorry.
Didn't mean to be such a downer, sorry.
This is what happens.
We start talking about like
the future of the internet and stuff.
Yeah, you're such a downer, Alex.
We purposefully said that this was a positive podcast.
This was supposed to be the positive 20s, 23s.
Yeah, that was supposed to be last year.
For his, no, it's not like that.
All the alpha was part of the show.
Was CWSDK is great, even though it doesn't exist yet.
First of all, yeah.
So guys, on the spreadsheet here,
on the spreadsheet here, it's got business plans.
Is that supposed to be business plans, question mark?
What does this one mean?
Why start now?
Literally, we're gonna open up this,
now you're gonna go to the spreadsheet, an hour 28 in.
Okay, let's go back to the spreadsheet.
January, 2023 now.
The Big Balls blockchain.
Oh, hey Jake, do you know about the Christmas present
from Usurp?
No.
Is it?
Is it Big Balls?
So last, yeah, Usurp, Usurp, last episode,
he gave us all Christmas gifts
and it's our email addresses on bigballsblockchain.com.
Okay, cool.
You could have dowdow at bigballsblockchain.com.
All right, sounds great.
Small fee.
You want in?
Yeah.
You're in.
Let's see.
I'm going to give you the keys to the Lamborghini.
Exactly.
That's Usurp.
Yeah.
Like the, yeah.
I just want to see the first CW SDK chain.
I'm not gonna lie.
That's my, my 2023 is like, I want to see the first,
see like the mesh, the mesh security stuff
and all that's kind of cool, but I want to see a chain
that's completely like Rust basically.
Welcome to Game of Nodes, a weekly podcast
on the Cosmos from independent validator teams.
And Cosmos, that'd be fucking cool.
That'd be kind of ace.
Anything else is a bonus.