[Music] ah [ __ ] so I went live and then a bunch
of [ __ ] just popped up on my screen so can someone roll the thing
oh we actually live are we yeah yeah hi everybody
[Music]
welcome to gaming nodes a weekly podcast on the cosmos from independent validated teams
I think we get only more shambolic every week with with our intros is there so
much there's this much high quality rugging you can actually sort of do off the cuff I think is what I'm learning as
we go into this 40 seconds episode
um I I I don't want to open the show with trash talk but by God I'm going to uh but I did notice there was that um
I I is this the I don't know if this is 100 the drama du jour but the uh prop 89
on the Hub uh which maybe is the drama du jour um about asking for Community funds for
doing videos and they were like oh since July or June or something we've done 11
videos so I was like I'm having videos sounds like a holiday bro I went looked at them they're really I
think I've seen a couple of those before they're pretty nice do you feel like they're quite their production quality is probably a bit higher it is there's
like green screens and [ __ ] but they're only like 10 minutes long like 14 minutes so if we do 42 times 90 versus
16 videos times 10 minutes I mean we should be getting a thousand Adam episode here yeah
what are we doing um well I guess we're not validating the hard number one yeah wait wait so you
validate The Hub don't you he does there you go see I voted yes
put in for some cash for us bro yeah let's go oh I could yeah as a response
to it hey there they go over 90. I mean the thing is though is it's like like what is it it's 300 atom for
monthly funding for a period of six months is it 3 300 per total 300 uh no per
month so what's 300 times six somebody with maths 1800. that was not that
wasn't too hard yeah that's worth twenty thousand dollars
uh well what is it it's uh 962 yeah 17
grand 17 grand that's a lot of money for 11 videos is
it for 11 [Music] let's see is that 11 more
but that that's for that's pain from the rears right yeah but then yeah I guess it depends it depends who wait
so if you went to like an ad agency and were like give me 11 videos it would probably cost you about 20 grand I
reckon yeah uh I would say probably even more than that I guess it depends what you want in them
maybe maybe that's why we're not worth ten thousand atom per video but then equally if you were like if you just
like went to an independent um like videographer or something and you
were like I don't mind using stock footage to pad it out a bit but like on the these topics
I reckon you could do it for that I wouldn't be too surprised anyway but you know [ __ ] for creating the
podcast so this is kind of [ __ ] yeah I mean we're all just we're just
you know whatever I mean even to be fair our stream yard subscription on its own
okay yeah we all we obviously use some software behind the scenes uh definitely
makes game of nodes a loss I think the aggregate like but by the time you add
up all of the the fiddling we have to do to make this work every week plus the time and the time like I I know I know
we look really disorganized but there is a little bit of there is a little bit of extra anyway
spending spending one single Cent makes [ __ ] game of nodes a loss
[Laughter] we should call out the amount of effort being put into the spreadsheet this week
I saw at least three or four separate contributions by three or four members of this group which is
contributions were more or less just complaining about [ __ ] with comments yeah yeah I just got like playing that
and then what one comment asked asked me why null could not tag me that's right
I'm like number one what am I I buy the Google tech support guy
I mean you have just tagged me what can I why can't I [ __ ] add Alex is what
it says why can't I just do the thing
but when I like when I comment and when I type at you just don't come up yeah
that's what the comment says we get it it goes off of well whatever it's not it's not important anyway joking aside I
actually don't have a problem with proper 89 I'd probably be like eh I guess like from the from the
being cynical they're going to do it anyway why should you pay for it were they asking for in the for the 11th
to complete or 11 a new ones I think it was 11 completed right okay I
kind of like the I what a novel idea to be paid after the work is complete that's something that's something maybe
the other projects could look at
other proposals we could refer to but they did ask after they did 11 and they
came back for it so whatever there's value there then great well to be fair to them they went and they did the work
and they didn't like hire 30 people to try and uh you know do the work and then yeah and
then find out that they you know were actually not a sustainable business venture looked after see if they should talk to
everybody on Twitter because I think that's kind of part of the funding process as well right the projects have to get out there and [ __ ] so you know
if you don't understand [Laughter] I actually so I've interacted with
Cosmic validators before I think they're they're nice folks and it's such a modest ask in my opinion yeah for for
what they're actually doing um they do engage on Twitter and everything they're trying to like be a
good positive influence on the ecosystem and for for again for the modest ask for how much effort they're probably putting
into actually making them I just I I think you're right yeah I mean I
probably vote Yes I didn't validate The Hub but if we did probably probably very yes
really it's really you're right I mean maybe you know maybe it's the maybe that money will help them you know
become like a nice good hub for news for the for the cosmos and it might attract
other people you know maybe it'll be worth it the question is though whether they I
mean I don't know how how big are their validator on the Hub because the flip side is that like they probably could
just pay for this from their commissions right I think they're fairly small yeah they are number 171 right now so four
above the bottom so and there are a lot of YouTube personalities who validate right so is this is this opening The
Floodgate to some of those coming in and say hey what the you know because I agree I mean part
of it is the validator is the revenue piece of that because I mean you would think that their position is in line with with whatever effort it's happening
on the on the YouTube side if they're if they're getting visibility it's creating it's creating delegations and that
should be the one that pays for it right kind of similar how successful game of nodes is for the four of us I mean it's wildly successful
generating delegations I noticed we're already we're already getting some comments in Adam Bomb has said uh I
think on the subject of maybe that's about the time where I said I'd probably be a yes from me boo uh Ben Davis says
uh but do we really want people to impact that one really makes your question that really makes you think we
should create a dollar around that one soy soytu Studio says have you actually watched the videos I have to be honest
no because the thumbnails make me cringe what
it's still fun though I am a little bit like
thumbnails are not how to get me to watch a video but look
yeah right but then like I I I I see a video where it's just like ah the
essence of like all this you know whatever category Theory or something with some
guy with a beard and I'm like [ __ ] yes let's [ __ ] go that's it so I
realized that I'm deranged um but uh yeah right hey Rama's here uh the
the prop identifies a tooling problem for funding content what uh you can tell that how badly I've read the thing then
so on on the like I don't know the quality of the content but like you know
for each of those videos they put out like a whole ass medium article as well it's like they put in a fair amount of
effort you know it's going to be researched and takes time to type and right but at the
same time at school now I recall I was not graded on the amount of effort I put
in I was great on whether it was good or [ __ ] yeah but like you know the the content
is not bad I I have actually watched it yeah
because of the fact [Laughter]
we just look at least we have a diversity of a pretty little game of nodes for some very narrow definition of
diversity of opinion there you go um
so it Studio has asked actually in the comments isn't this the whole point of the ICF delegations
mine it seems like Yes actually that's actually a really good point I'll take that
but to that end icfd allegations don't currently exist yet like they're marketing them and we know they're
coming but they aren't here so while they don't still exist this is another
method of funding so and I don't think there's an issue with having multiple forms of funding I think that if you
receive a delegation you can still go for community funding right like if I created a tool in Juno I do have a
delegation from core one or whoever the entity is that does the delegations there I don't think that that makes it
mutually exclusive yeah I think they do explicitly say something actually as well about not
wanting um that they'll if they get one they'll
they'll give up to other if that makes sense um
but yeah uh and then as always there's a bunch of comments in there in the chat about it
should come from a dial delves all the way down it's down here baby this game
of nodes of doubt um it's a cabal there's a cabal it's an evil Dow sounds
nice we are we are definitely Evil all the way down game of noise
yeah we're in DC decentralized cabal
okay DK where the [ __ ] you smoking I don't know what's the difference between a decentralized cabal and a doll
that was both both oh I know I I missed that from the from the Jitters my [ __ ]
you Elon you're [ __ ] up today brother it's not the birds
no man's Elon he's been a [ __ ] he's [ __ ] he's got the he has he hasn't he
has in fact been a cut a button on my internet connection he's
just like tapping it he's like [ __ ] you [ __ ] you he's like got the wires gone you probably watched the last episode he
was like oh attack [ __ ] on on live podcast huh all right so we'll see what happens
that's probably why it's never going to work for us if we try and do spaces because we'll just get blacklisted or
Shadow band or whatever the [ __ ] you call that um for Twitter immediately immediately game of became a [ __ ]
more like let's see if they ah we were trying not to swear or get demoneto even though we're never ever
ever gonna make it 90 minutes without demonetizing ourselves number one and number two we don't even have ads
enabled to my understanding of how that works on YouTube anyway it doesn't matter when you try not to
swear we can't be monetized because of all of our other videos you'd have to go and
sanitize everything you know just ruin the [ __ ] Channel no isn't it on a case-by-case basis
no if your Channel's like [ __ ] up you have to go back and fix all the other [ __ ] ready or delete or delete pictures
yeah you can I'm not sure about that yeah yeah you can say [ __ ] on YouTube and you have
to like then go back and edit out the word [ __ ] from every YouTube video that's ridiculous
path I'm sorry to everyone for saying the dirty f word I'm really sorry we've
realized mistakes have been made on game of nodes the word [ __ ] has been said on several occasions keeping those cares
but not by me yeah
oh good [ __ ] um oh they go good content is its own reward thanks
Adam let us know when we get there Adam and we'll uh we're just we take a very
iterative approach we just this is a long long long social game slash
performance art piece one one episode at a time for future archeology archaeologists of
the internet to uncover and be like what were people doing thinking smelling at the time of the great interchange
explosion now watch five episodes and be like yeah actually yeah we'll just make something up that's better it's probably
primary materials in here somewhere but let's just say that everybody's anxious that's what it was and they were making
money and that's because they were losing money there we go okay yeah let's go let's go watch the cosmic validator
show instead yeah
oh [ __ ] okay so guys what a lot of people are struggling with here is that you know oh
my goodness the the production quality is just amazing is that Elon is that you like popping in
live stream on there on your internet no you know when you go to a YouTube
channel I've got these [ __ ] [ __ ] like automatic videos that just when you go to you know it's [ __ ] annoying so
has anyone watched has anyone is that what you're saying have any of you shut up you haven't done anything like in the
in the actual Channel descriptions and anything I keep saying let us in there so we can bastardize it but I I keep
saying that's not how YouTube accounts work
just give us your password bro oh yeah yeah what's the worst that could
happen we'll just give you give you the company Gmail password that's that's a great
idea so anyway has anyone watched because I've won I found this fascinating has anyone watched the uh
FTX collapse hearing on um The Wall Street Journal YouTube channel
for four hours yeah it was uh it seems like very nerdy even by your
standards
for bankruptcy for people don't know they brought him in after uh SPF got booted and you see
the animal guy he's the onions yeah so he he's he started like the day
the day after um like they filed for chapter 11 I think or the day before or something
like other members the day after what was he doing they just bail him up and they're just like hey man you're not up
to anything are you no I'm just just [ __ ] shooting some holes waiting for another massive corporate Scandal I
think that's it and they're just like right well coming off the golf course [ __ ] we got a real [ __ ] up for
you this time but I was one day away from retirement it is for the last [ __ ] 14 years oh
yeah so watching this thing Man it is [ __ ] scary like how Kennedy is about
how [ __ ] that company was it's like uh he said there's like
no no corporate structure whatsoever it's like they don't even have a HR department they don't have like a proper
departments for anything I think the only thing they had was accounting and obviously they were pretty [ __ ] he said that they were using [ __ ] QuickBooks
for their accounting
and they're like all these Senators come coming and asking all these [ __ ] questions and he's just like he keeps saying the same thing he's like
what about this uh have you do you know demographics he's like we don't know anything it's just a big pile streaming
[ __ ] there's no records there's no there's no yeah would you say the principal problem they
had however was that they were their corporate structure was a polycule whereas their corporate structure should
have been in doubt and then they would have had no problems a little bit Unchained they should have been a decentralized
autonomous cabal and they would have been fine what about a decentralized autonomous
molecule adapt I don't know what a follicle is man you've got to use [ __ ] words I know
does somebody want to take that I mean I feel like I don't know people on the west coast of America here so no I don't
know what that one is either it's like um but just like when people when you have
like polyamory and there's a bunch of people kind of all right right yeah I've never heard
that term before haven't I heard that before but that's what they that well I mean I I mean it's a little bit like
wing wing but that's presumably what was happening in the Bahamas right
so when you're billionaires like just because you're like you like the way
each other each other's taste in movies you know the eight billion dollar company with only only expenses like a
350 monthly QuickBooks online account so usurpee you said you watched like did
you watch the whole thing I watched most of it until everything got in the way and like it was just him I watched the
point where he was saying the same thing every time which was you keep asking these same questions these are all good questions but there's no answers here
that's basically what the what that thing boiled down to that is such a great response listen you've had great
ideas but here's the thing that would be a really good question anything if a business had books I could look at that
would be a really good question however I can tell you nothing we're still figuring it
so the majority of the whole hearing right was people grandstanding and
[ __ ] people not listening and then asking the same question again in a different way yeah
there was like you know so there's like Pro like pro-crypto senators and like
just anti-crypto Senators right and uh like one of them got up there and he's
like I think he was trying to crack a joke and it was [ __ ] dumb and he's like I
I would like to propose like that we rename crypto to like
Pluto or something like that yeah it's like I was like shut the [ __ ] up dude it
was so [ __ ] cringe it's not funny and this is in line now Grandad you've got a Head Rush
yeah this is like you know [ __ ] you know like a hearing and he's like yeah let's let's rename it to uh to like
Pudo and everyone's like crazy [ __ ] toe what are you here man
that's the one it was weird that like how people get up
and like be able to have some sort of take two of their minutes on questions and just kind of grandstand around their Viewpoint the whole thing
um just getting up there and saying they're [ __ ] feelings from crypto yeah
exactly right right like just baby bath water type stuff right like just throw it all out or or whatever else but yeah
I mean good no go ahead I'll say I mean following that there was
uh Elizabeth Warren came out with a bill I think today or recently around how to
classify like validators and exchanges I'll try I'll throw in the tweet for it but basically it went so far as like if
you're if you run like a validator operation in the U.S she wants you essentially to have like a like a banking uh license kind of thing and
that's just that's an outstanding take on everything that's going on outstanding take not
back it wasn't Bank license it was a uh a money processor right so it basically turns into the same thing as like the
corner check cashing things is really what it is meaning you're not you're not custodial you might hold
something in reserve you might be handling and transacting customer money um or and she included validators and
even to like proof of stake where we're non-custodial validators as like a money processor well that is a [ __ ] that like
that would be that would be the end of this business in the US if that was actually true because there's there's I
don't know if anybody would actually do that at least this wouldn't be in the US it would be everywhere else but well and it's so unrealistic I also I posted it
in the the private chat if you guys want to put that in the public one I I love it [Music]
um but that's just such a oh yeah right I'm on the outside here
where I actually like a lot of the Elizabeth Warren's uh thoughts on things not so much crypto because she that's
something that's just kind of pretty far outside of her her understanding but this is just that that's a bit much yeah
yeah yeah and and what it takes I mean this is how this is how this [ __ ] goes back 10 years it's not just the money
loss but now it turns into now we're going to over correct for a bunch of 20
year olds you know not able to run a business that could be a ten thousand
dollar business much less a 10 billion dollar business and then they look at this and say there's no controls in this
type of situation and what what what controls can we actually put in place when half of this is offshore and so how
do we protect quote unquote the American Consumer and how you do that is you just take a [ __ ] nuke and pave approach to
it right you just you don't identify the intricacies of it you don't try to figure out what the right like balance
of things is you just say well [ __ ] this and then we then we're back five years right or more like you then you start
backing up because you got to start rebuilding from the very beginning so that's that's the reason that's reason this is like
this we were talking about before like why this is why this FTX collapse is this worse and the people who are actually FTX holders uh it's just it's
just [ __ ] crushes everything well yeah and I think that one big aspect of it is he was supposed
to be the face of Regulation right and suddenly the face of Regulation with crypto was also some kid that's yeah
that's true and around like that really makes it look bad like the guy who wants regulation doesn't have an accounting
software come on yeah right so then what does that mean everyone else is if he's like one of the best who's everyone else
like I have a better assistant well it turns out it turns out he was a piece of [ __ ] and funnily enough the person
shouting loudly about being a [ __ ] Legend turns out to be a [ __ ] prick he knew oh surprise yeah yeah only
[ __ ] everybody like everybody's ever paid attention to like the banking sector is like
charismatic [ __ ] well done [ __ ] let's get out our bingo card charismatic
guys says nice things you know whatever whatever
I mean that pretty much sums it up right yeah but that but that that tweet actually that you
linked like that sums it up for me is like it's like um somebody who doesn't have like direct experience of crypto proposes a bad or
like a knee-jerk way of like um regulating and then all the crypto
Bros are like surveillance State and it's like oh [ __ ] wind your neck in you [ __ ] like you're already like
you're already in a surveillance State [ __ ] Patriot Act you're not in a surveillance State because it's on a
public [ __ ] blockchain you absolute [ __ ] rube like if you were really like Z cash is not worried about this do
you know why because it's actually [ __ ] secure it's actually anti-surveillance I doubt like the
penumbra Lads are that but and well the penumbra folks are
so my colloquial use of lads in British way to go there everybody crazy
fantastic save I realized I was talking about predominantly American team so I had to change from British English to
American English to denote the generic ungendered group of people that work on it not Lads but folks anyway
I doubt they're that worried about it right because they're building actual anti-davellian stuff that has a used
case that will be used by people you know uh it's kind of back to the it's going back
to the stuff that usurpose that say the other week which is like the other problem we have with regulation is at
the moment people turn around and say well where are the use cases and we go [ __ ] we're still trying to work that out we're still assembling the airplane on
the way down they're like yeah but people are making billions of dollars you've got to assemble this airplane quicker and you're like the problem is
SPF is making billions of dollars well no more well not anymore he's in a
very small place right now he's yeah he's not in a great place but uh well and this kind of goes further into like
a political discussion but I mean that's where lobbying comes from right nobody can be experts of everything so that's where you get lobbyists come from and
then lobbying of course gets bastardized into bribery it gets turned into citizens united it gets turned into all
these other things when lobbying itself I mean it's actually smart it's it's genuinely smart to have experts that you
can call on for information but then obviously those experts are biased and
you want those buyers well it's also like funding limits in lobbying and what sort of stuff is a
really big problem and um it's one of like the minor the minor but most important
um scandals of brexit actually is that we have pretty strict funding caps um most European countries do uh during
elections and they were deliberately and illegally broken by funneling money through a shell company in Canada I
think uh during the brexit campaign may or may not be rushing money who knows
um but you know it's one of those again with these where you're just like oh [ __ ] man again with like SPF you look at
it and you're like [ __ ] who was he funding as well like because everybody it's also like just you know
uh do they because again it makes everybody who let's say was funded by him is gonna have to now it will will
knee-jerk against whatever because they'll be like oh well no but we were given a donation but [ __ ] that
guy like and also by the way [ __ ] crypto and you're like and you know like like most things in life it's a there's no
it's not really black and white like [ __ ] some crypto yeah I mean [ __ ] Shiba Inu coin
[ __ ] 69. but he doesn't [ __ ] about that [ __ ] coin like it doesn't matter like
I mean I'd probably still even have some does knocking around somewhere who's the [ __ ] about Dogecoin right but
you know I don't know yeah no absolutely I told yeah yeah uh
it's now it's now kind of bad enough where you're like okay like we're a kind of we're not in a terribly great place
for crypto right you almost look at like what what what can we Salvage from this era
because we had like the Dow then we had like what would be the next massive implosion
probably the Ico boom and bust oh yeah and then now I think this is our most
recent absolute [ __ ] up and it's like okay each each time there's a massive collapse we grandfather in something and
then abandon a lot of other stuff stable coins in there stable coins algorithms the U.S change
right USD it feels like a long time ago isn't it yeah I think D5 was the big bull run I think
this time because in 2017 it was the Ico and I think I think D5 is really the one that brought it in
this bull run and it was all built off of stable coins yep
going back to your cabinet before around John Ray getting the phone call out in the golf course I had a total flashback
of like of like of Harvey Keitel the wolf sitting out of bed getting a
phone call at like 7 30 in the morning in Pulp Fiction and like like John Ray sitting on the phone with it's like seven in the
mornings but he's got a tuxedo on for some reason he's got his little notebook out and he's going all right who are the players all right Sam Beckman what okay
yeah fuzzy here yeah Caroline what what's she look like oh okay I'll be there in 10.
it's just like just a perfect harmony Keitel situation yeah that's exactly it that's him it's
John just getting into getting in his what was that uh it was an actor or something what was that a um
oh what car was that his silver Acura right somebody'll know yeah something like that doing 100 miles an hour
oh man there's gonna be a really uh isn't it I read somewhere that
um the guy who wrote the book that The Big Short is based on was
um shadowing a bunch of people in crypto in anticipation of hilarious meltdown and
had very recently shadowed some Batman free just before it all went to [ __ ]
so somebody followed him like six months ago which is just fantastic because because he'll have written everything
down and he'll just be sitting in but he'll have like giving it the prosecutors and God by the way his thing anyway I'm gonna go back to my book uh
which is going to be a bestseller by the way I can tell you ahead of time I'm pretty certain now it's gonna be a very
big bestseller crazy
I don't know what are you [ __ ] text people and say Don't call they call it's
I'm dumb well like your boss just people that's a hell of a thing for
you to say I'll message you on Discord and you'll be like all right I'm calling in two minutes I'm like okay I don't
talk to you it's the reason I message you yeah but if the message was don't call
okay okay for explicitly saying don't call all right I'm picking up what you're putting down now you know for the
next time like specific specifically the situation was
I I rejected a phone call sent a message that said I can't talk I'll call you
back after 10 o'clock two immediate [ __ ] recall
so I don't know um where did we get to I was busy
taking that we just talked about basically where Rama just got to us in
the comments there Rama said well we have no narrative for another bull run right
and maybe that's okay right because because we've had a whole bunch of of what would be really interesting is to
see the matter of all the various bull runs because either they're just completely random and it's
just random noise or maybe they're getting worse or maybe the I mean I
would imagine they're getting bigger it might be huge right but you would hope bigger but I'd say bigger in like
the you know smile I mean not even bigger in the percentage ups and downs are pretty much goes mad and then nukes but the um
you know you need a catalyst for a bull run and this time around the Catalyst was the uh covid because everyone was at
home and had nothing to do so I believe we will be [ __ ] until there's a new catalyst
so uh what was the 2017 catalyst
or was they uh well it was probably smart contracts right
that's kind of first time yeah it was like people were just minting random [ __ ] coins wasn't it that was the Ico
well so at like yeah c20s so around fifth I think it was 15
2015 around there is when like ethereum started with its [Music]
um you know started implement the smart contract stuff and then I think it developed to a point until they had
um you know some form of defying and nfts around 2017.
and then I think that sort of kicked off like a bit of a [ __ ] hype cycle on that type of business and then it took
off that makes sense and that that would make sense for why icos became such a
big thing in 2017 because they're built off of that platform yeah yeah
I mean that I mean there's a I remember I I bought quite a bit of
just before or around that time and it was literally just I
sorted I think by by market cap on one of the thingies at the time I went okay
ethereum I've I know what it is it's programmable stuff if it's it's now high in market cap
there we go let's buy some of that and see just come check back in three years and uh yeah Panda all right but
you do go like and I don't know we say before but until you get to the point where you can't do
that then all this stuff is [ __ ] because that kind of the kind of return on investment you get on this stuff
like it should be no surprise that it all goes to [ __ ] so quickly what it does oh [ __ ]
it goes fast right well yeah the problem the problem with ponzinomics is that it needs new money
and if new money is not coming then ponzinomics falls off the cliff well yeah there are a lot of so so
obviously I said like the other week um having finally finished a few weeks ago
um null's recommendation of graber's debt book there's he has a lot of things to say about
um um I guess the creation of money because that's kind of what the book's about
right which is the move from how you get to from
credit like informal credit to the need for
um creating money right like token token based money and there's a lot of stuff
in there that's quite interesting and quite relevant to like it seems like often there's a debt crisis as well
involved in um the proliferation of new types of money when people when people have no way of paying their bills or
they can't access money um for one reason or another they quite often make their own there's this whole bit where he talks about medieval
England like people just going like oh I just I'm just going to make fad it could cause it fad money and um
uh and it's uh I'll find the I'll find the quotes good hang on I mean that's that's what you do right
when uh when everything goes to [ __ ] and your money's worth nothing anymore you just like move to the next thing and
then call it money right move from your seashells and Pebbles to like you know
chunks of shiny [ __ ] and then move from your chunks of shiny [ __ ] to like Stamped Out shiny [ __ ] and
then decide that you don't want that anymore and then create paper uh okay yeah because you need to find
the shiny [ __ ] to begin with so he talks about at the time when they were when uh there was a bit of the old
genocide happening in South America and the they were taking all of the silver which is like the largest expansion in
in money supply ever in the history of the world from the point of view of the European like the European and the
Western Powers I guess he says that like the majority of it didn't actually turn up in use like it wasn't in use that
that was because of like early Global as what we might call globalization right a lot of end up in China for another reason
um but so he says that in in the poorer neighborhoods of cities of a large towns
shopkeepers would issue their own lead leather or wooden token money in the 16th centuries became something of a fad
with arthasands and even poor widows producing their own currency as a way to make ends meet and then there's a couple
of there's obviously a couple of footnotes with that uh citations but the the really interesting thing is like
like even if you have like there's this idea like and he returns to it a lot this idea that you have this notion that
these things are backed by something but most of the time when you scratch you find that actually
kind of not and then the actual the destabilizing influence of all these
other things is usually part of the macro if you have an unstable situation
um and there's also a funny quote further down that same page which I've I've run the line which is in a typical Village
the only people likely to pay cash were passing Travelers and those considered riffraff
um because he points out everything was done in that period of the Middle Ages was done largely easy either using tally
sticks or using pure credit like you just you just if you're in a village like you don't leave the village that
often you know you you you get together and you have a reckoning uh periodically
where everybody just sells their debts basically um but those are not so since we are now
into reading sections from David graber's book um one of the more interesting there's a
section on on um I think it's preming priming or is it during the Ming era
it's during the Ming dynasty in China it's about how
um unofficial money money types were created and then grandfathered into the
system so uh okay there's a complicated thing that
involved the tax system as it was not having um not having money in it right so you
paid in um labor and in kind for your taxes and people couldn't do that because well
people couldn't do it and they couldn't change their jobs and it caused civil unrest basically and civil unrest bad right
um so people left where they lived and they went to do random jobs and they and one of the things that people ended up
doing aside odd jobs peddling entertainment piracy or banditry
um he says in China many also turn prospector there was a minor silver Rush with illegal Minds cropping up
everywhere on coin silver ingots instead of official paper money and streams of bronze coins soon became the real money
of the off the books informal economy when the government attempted to shut down illegal mines in the 1430s and
1440s their efforts sparked local insurrections in which miners would make common cause with displaced peasants
seize nearby cities and sometimes threatened entire provinces in the end the government gave up even trying to
suppress the informal economy instead they swung the other way entirely they stopped issuing paper money legalized
the mines allowed silver bullion to become the recognized currency for large transactions and even gave products the
authority to produce strings of cash which sounds a lot like [ __ ] coins right
except that it's [ __ ] coins backed by silver but the question is like what
this is the kind of the the interesting Paradox at the heart of it which is that why do people think silver and gold are
inherently more worth something there's a whole section on like Alchemists and stuff trying to
justify This and like like ancient theories and medieval theories and other stuff but it all
basically comes down to because right history right that's it that it's been
centuries and centuries of us agreeing that that's not us but of of human of
the species agreeing that there's value there right okay so exactly social agreed absolutely it's rare I mean we
have modern day they're the yeah I would say it Rarity is a big part of it but there are modern
day things like that as well right in prisons Ramen is considered the the currency of choice in most prisons I
thought it was cigarettes and then well I was gonna hit that next the alternative to that is cigarettes but
that also applies to other areas as well so going back to my childhood my group
of friends was like the Stoners or whatever right and that was their currency with cigarettes there as well
but you also find that in other places um even going back to like World War One when cigarettes became big cigarettes
became a currency then in Wartime and it basically has never stopped right you can look at how cigarettes have become a
currency in the Afghan war in Iraq like it's just something that has become such a strong token of value that
it kind of transcends our current vision of money because it has and there's no
intrinsic value to it I guess aside from like its utilization of like creating social ties but
everyone sees one cigarette as one cigarette and so how many how many deck of cards is that worth
what kind of trade can I get out of this it's it's actually a pretty interesting like token value really
so you know schultzy in Australia um we use beer instead of uh cigarettes
but I I take your point and yeah sorry so the funny thing about barter is
that um you know something is worth what someone's willing to give for it right so a cigarette could be worth in one
instance a rock or a cigarette could be worth in another instance a Lamborghini
it just depends on the you know the person who's who's trading for it and
how much they want it so I just want to go back to um something that The Fray mentioned previously with his
um sticks so in the village the sticks in the village that there is in that book there are so many parallels
to different things in um in crypto and actually the sticks are one of them uh
and I would call that more the the town coming together for reconciliation of
debt right and that draws a parallel to as what Ben has pointed out here which
is Kofi which was um brought up the other day a bear maybe
Ben can actually tell us who the developer was on that but I read about
it the other day on um after I saw a thread on it on Twitter and it's virtually the same thing it's like
um at some point reconciling your debt between the group of people who
have debts together so basically you know I go into debt with with uh The
Fray and The Fray goes into debt with um schultzy but instead of me paying back the frey I pay sheltie and it's you can
um reconcile debt as a group and then you have less transactions so
um right but the flip side of that is and go back to where you can fright because it always comes back it always
does right notice nobody in wake and fright ever asked for a beer to be bought back for them they just buy beers
for other people and in addition there's that thing in that in in the same book which um other
it comes up actually quite often in anthropo anthropology I gather more generally
which is that if you're part of a community it's seen as gem often quite healthy to be generally in depth to the
people around you by small tokenistic amounts like even to the extent if you think about like if you know your
neighbors well you'll typically lend them things and they'll lend you things like on my
street we trade hot sources for example um I think I've learned some guitar equipment to somebody a few doors down
like there are there are all these little things where you're like they're just the things that anchor you kind of
to a place and they're not really like and like beer is a really good example because
it's very very common to buy a beer and then not count not count the tab sure when you're younger you are always like
you owe me a [ __ ] beer mate but then there comes a point when you let's say you don't see people as often
because you're beginning to get a bit older or other people have got kids again you don't see them so often you're not going to count every beer if you
manage to see them because you're just like oh this is part of a bonding a community ritual right right
accumulated more wealth and you're less like so picky about that business
counting every beer yeah but as you get older like I think generally speaking
you accumulate more wealth and then it becomes less of a sticking point if someone owes you a beer
I don't know if it even is about the wealth necessarily I think that as you get older um but I want to go back to what something you first talk about in a
minute but um I think your your priorities change when you're young like you don't hold a
lot of value towards social interactions because all day you spend like from kindergarten onward you spend all
day with 30 other people minimum and then you have college what have you so social value means very little to you
but as you get older you're starting to isolate more whether you want to or not that's just human nature and so suddenly
like who cares about that beer I get to spend an hour with Jeff or whatever and then you just yeah I think you're right
I think yeah you know Jeff he's a great guy I know that's fantastic I haven't seen him in years
and I definitely agree I definitely agree with your point with like more and more social isolation when you get older
like there becomes a point where you just can't be [ __ ] making new friends anymore and especially if it means like
going to the local [ __ ] Boozer and like staying awake and not in bed for a
long time so you know those
I I agree absolutely yeah I mean and I would say one of the first times in my
life that I've ever had the conversation of like listen I think I think you're cool and everything but at this time in
my life I'm not really looking for like new deep friendships like and I'm about 30 right and so it's about that time
that starts to happen and I've never experienced that before but anyway let's go a little go a little
bit farther than 30. a little bit farther than 30 a little bit farther than 30. 30 is a little bit early I know exactly what you mean I'm
50. I know exactly what you're talking about it does happen 30. I mean I have some of my best friends here ones I've
met after 30 so don't cut them out at that point well I'm like I'm light 30s
and I really like don't like people in general anymore I've always been like that I just I like
my my group of friends that I sort of went to UNI with and you can like say
anything you want to them as well like you know you've been friends for so long that if you're having a bad day you can
like cozum about some [ __ ] and they just like don't care and like if you did that
to some new person that you knew I'm sure that'd be a little bit sensitive to that kind of housing but in general like
we we like we we change our um
like uh like a lot has changed like we you're more focused on work and not like you
know what Sally and Tom are doing down the road like when you're younger you're really socially
um focused because you don't have anything else that's like to do and so
you know it's all about interpersonal interpersonal relationships and you get all tangled up in that drama right but
once you get older you've got to work you've got family you know you've got all these other responsibilities and
time consuming things you just lose time yeah you lose time for like
um you know the social things that you used to do and I think that's a trap as well
um and it's a it's a trap of society and it's a trap of of how Society needs to
function to be like viable so we need a bunch of uh you know
low-income earners to basically is sustain the economy of the world because without they're the machine if you don't
have the machine then you know the countries don't run so you know the people who are all the way down are
battling and the people who are all the way at the top don't do [ __ ] they just you know manage their Investments but
you need that the bulk of people stuck in that middle ground to make the machine work and so while you're busy
toiling away as part of the machine like life just passes You by and you don't really have those social problems
anymore because you're too busy running the machine well I think what's interesting about that is that that's actually kind of a
more modern um take on society I guess
um I've read a couple books that talk about what it looked like to be let's say like a medieval surf normally when
you think of the concept of a beautiful surf you think like they're working 12-hour days every day in the fields
they're laboring blah blah but it actually wasn't really like that they had far more time to be human than we do
these days so it's interesting to to look at how isolated and how much time is dedicated
to generating capital for ourselves to pay for rent or whatever when the reality is it's such a modern thing and
we think it's just the way things are supposed to be and it's really not having to work to live
is is a modern phenomenon that is that that's the interesting thing right is
that that there were points when you could literally work on your own land there were points until relatively
recently where even in a very very small country like England you could live off
of common land fully right you did not have to have a
job you did not you had to you know there's people who were the pointy stick who will stab you to death if you don't
tip your heart fine that that's life but for the most part you could just go
about your [ __ ] business and like you say it also served him like
post the Black Death like there was a whole period where Europe in particular depopulated by a
third after that like the idea that somebody could be like do this do that the other
again no chance like there were there were so many they were like it was there's some crazy stat I don't know
somebody can look this up there's some there was some point after the Black Death where certainly medieval England the third of the year was feast days
because the the because the laborers the agricultural laborers ran the [ __ ] show without them everybody would starve
and they knew it so they were like yeah all the old Pagan festivals they're back in these these Christian ones of course
we're having those anybody else got any wild ideas for festivals because we need a few more days to get the Mead out
two thumbs up I mean this what we do now where we work till
exhaustion and then we die like that's a very recent thing um and you can start you can see the
health effects you've had from we've had from it um there's a book called bowling Alone
um from the 90s about basically how it used to be if you look back at like the 50s 60s people were in Bowling clubs
they went and did you know pick up games for sports together there's all those sorts of things and nowadays we're
talking about the isolation epidemic right I would argue that a strong part of the 2020 Bull Run wasn't so much
covid in the sense of like something about disposable income because of the the checks or whatever but a lot of
I think was everyone got jumbled up in their social system that a lot of people
found community in in crypto and because they found that community in crypto they could you know kind of lit live the
social life that they kind of wanted to not exactly because it's not in person there's a discussion we had around that
but so many there are so many people that are missing community in very fundamental ways that again is a modern
phenomena and I think that I think we're going to find out soon kind of how much it's affecting
people shieldsia I think that kind of Fades in as well as why [ __ ] crypto Twitter is
like such a [ __ ] show at the moment because people don't really have another outlet for their frustrations like a lot
of people can't go down and talk to their friends at the pub about you know how their [ __ ] making losses in
crypto or or whatever else and I think that de facto uh pseudo-anonymous part
of of Twitter makes it like an ideal outlet for people who have no other like social
outlet to just [ __ ] lab rip and uh you know use their frustrations on other
people so uh I just wanted to um apologize as well for like my rant
before on the machine uh we had some constructive feedback uh Rama says deep
Ben Davis says Bleak and atom bomb says that's depressing so just uh I just want
to apologize for that and um Adam Bomb also keeps saying that
uh gonna say it again bring back the Jubilee year I don't know what that means but sure man let's hit it it's the
conclusion in debt so Jubilee was debt forgiveness that's what it meant yes I
do need to reread it so it's it's literally luckily for you I've got it I've
actually got it underlined somewhere I'm sure I do uh let me find it
I feel like The Fray has like a far better methodology of reading and
retaining information in books uh hypnosis degree I'm gonna say it again annotating them and and other you know
things like that it's probably got like little [ __ ] tags hanging out of them everywhere with little notes on them whereas
the next thing yeah well it's just when they're a thing
I also figure like especially for something where it's kind of vaguely provocative you I tend to get halfway
through and then I start to realize that I'm missing things and I start like typically mine only start getting
annotated after halfway through uh where I'm like oh there's loads of good stuff that I'm gonna forget when I get to the end of this so I start doing
it but it's yeah but if you ever lend it somebody or you give it away then somebody else can kind of it's kind of
nice I always kind of like it when I read a book and I find some of these maybe not like a novel but like a like a
text like you know like a kind of vaguely academic um I actually go for used books but specifically for
that reason Portland has has Pal's bookstore and they have like these great used books and I I specifically try and
find one where someone has annotated because then you can get like a third party and like
introspection of what's happening I think that adds to to a book experience
I really like the books that I've got from uh that there's that really good used book shop in Berkeley just just
down from the University um I've got a few really good books from there and they've always got somewhat
funny occasionally quite Californian annotations but um you know you kind of
know what I mean um so so there's there's there's an end the ending of the book like is is is
worth I'm basically I'm just gonna say okay uh so
[Music] um um
so yeah just trying to find the beginning of the rational beginning of this quote
um like okay so this is exactly what's so pernicious about the morality of debt
the way that Financial imperatives tried to reduce us all despite ourselves to the equivalent of pillagers eyeing the
world simply for what can be turned into money and then tell us there's only those who are willing to see the world
as pillagers who deserve access to resources required to pursue anything in life other than money like being on a
golf course waiting for the phone to ring it introduces moral perversions on every level councils for example Council
or student debt the argument comes but that'll be unfair to all of those people who struggle for years to pay back their
student loans let me assure the reader that as somebody who struggled for years to play back his student loans and
finally did so this argument makes about as much sense as saying it would be unfair to a mugging victim not to mug
their neighbors too the argument might perhaps make some sense if one agreed with the underlying
assumption that work is by definition virtuous since the ultimate measure of Humanity's success is as a species in
its ability to increase the global output of goods and services by at least five percent per year the problem is
that it's becoming increasingly obvious that if we continue along these lines much longer we're likely to destroy everything side point as I learned in
this book and I didn't know before the five percent per year thing comes from the maximum amount of interest you could
charge until it was I think against Roman Catholic Doctrine after they gave up on the ban on usury in the Middle
Ages to accommodate the bankers so even our idea of GDP is based on like Middle
Ages accommodation between the church and money lenders anyway uh no I didn't
know that's also the least amount you can judge as Commission yep yep and uh so I would like then to
end by putting in a good word for the non-industrious poor at least they aren't hurting anyone insofar as the
time they're taking off from work is being spent with friends and family enjoying and caring for those that love they love they're probably improving the
world more than we acknowledge maybe we should think of them as pioneers of a new economic order that would not share
our current ones ponchon for self-annihilation the film office space I think is relevant there
um and then he ends with in this book I've largely avoided making concrete proposals but let me end with one it seems to me that we are long overdue for
some kind of a Biblical style Jubilee one which would affect both International debt and Consumer Debt uh
it would be salutary not because it would relieve so much genuine human suffering because it would also be a way of reminding ourselves that money is not
ineffable that paying paying one's debts is not the essence of morality and that all these things are human Arrangements
if democracy is to mean anything it is the ability to agree to arrange thing in
a different way which may bring us on to the question of I put something on Twitter the other day
saying hang on a minute what if the problem with all this editing The blockchain Ledger is actually that we do
it outside of consensus and I know prop 16 we had a whole thing
on this but maybe actually because we've been talking about
tombstoning right for the last few weeks on the show and it doesn't mean anything no
no it doesn't is the problem with untombstoning that we un Tombstone or is
the problem that we do it outside of consensus and yes I do realize that was a
handbrake and then the car has slid and we are now going in that direction
yeah you gave me no no time to reflect on that passage you're like all right here's the passage and anyway
I feel like I need to recover so I think like that that end um
like that is kind of like uh throughout the book worked on that
obviously um that ending um like paragraph
because it it is leaned on quite a few times I think in the book about the you
know socially uh sort of coming to the arrangement of deleting
the debt so yeah look I'm not going to talk about it because I'm sounding like a peanut and
it also takes me an incredible long time to read books like this is my current uh book that I'm reading with my little
hand what was that uh this is one that
um it's called it's about cognitive dissonance and it's uh mistakes were made but not
by me so um you know I don't make mistakes
so it's it's just about like your your mind convincing yourself that you're always right basically
interesting yeah um yeah well you know it's just
yeah it's pretty interesting in their respects like because sometimes you know that you know you'll be talking to
someone and or you hear statements by someone and they they genuinely believe that it's like 100 true and it's you
know probably because they're a little bit invested in that outcome or you know
just convince themselves of it or you know like flat earthers and stuff like that it's just
it's an interesting book um but I'm not very far through it as you can see that's [ __ ]
I've obviously not got to the meat yet but um and you know I only read when I'm at
home you can tell by how good a condition this is when I'm like not watching [ __ ]
Netbook or something on Netflix so Netflix yeah but uh man I'm gonna have to go
back and reread uh debt because it was actually a couple of years ago that I got that book in and
read through it and it took me quite some time to get through because uh it's very [ __ ] like heavy
to understand big boy yeah it's a thick book and it's and it's heavy to understand
but like I remember some of the themes thinking back about it but I think I really should like get some detail about
it um I think maybe like an idea might be that um if we uh like on this show I
think maybe we should challenge ourselves to maybe read a book like every four to six weeks or something so
that we can like you know at the same time so that we can actually you know have some discourse
about it um in saying that it probably would take it might have to be a bit longer than
yeah more like eight weeks yeah I mean if I've got a deadline though like I can
probably you know put some more effort into getting through it if it's just something you know I could sacrifice
some other [ __ ] that I do to actually read the books it'd be good to me I guess it depends how busy your
bookshelf is doesn't it well I mean if we could do you know one
book every eight weeks I don't think as good a conversation can come out of that is if we do well let's do one chapter
every two weeks or something I think that's easier because you can focus in be like okay this chapter is about this what kind of discourse can we have that
the flip side of that yeah in terms of saying something relevant sometimes you know you read the whole of debt really
and I think they're probably maybe like 10 pull out quotes where I've been like [ __ ] that that says something quite
personal to our current situation you know and there are other ones like the the question of like debt crises and
like proliferation and money types that is more of an underlying theme it's not like there's one particular chapter that
talks about it although it's sort of touched on you know so I guess it also depends like what what kind of book we're reading
um but you know if you read something like uh I was going to suggest actually um the other book I read really recently
was the world will be on your head I kind of like read most of the chaps I didn't read the whole thing
um by share what's his name Crawford his name's Crawford Matthew
Crawford I think he wrote shop class as soulcraft I feel like that is a book that would go
down well with this group uh shop class as soulcraft that is that one's very good I've not read it yet I've read this
one and I I've read an article by him um which I think came before the book but I haven't read shop craft for
soulcraft yet so I was going to read that but if you've already read it short see then
I I read it in high school though so we're talking like a lot of people every
person then yeah exactly I'm a different person then so like I
could totally read it again and just get all new stuff similarly with um what's the one the one where the guy
Mo uh was that in the autism for the soul is that in the art of Motors motorcycle victims yeah yeah
yeah do you know do you know what could be fun is reading something like just off
the wall like um the uh metamorphosis
[Laughter] and like trying to make like 100 different places
because metamorphosis is like a bunch of short stories right so it's easy to to get through and then like trying to
[ __ ] make sense of it as a uh you know with our group consensus what Kafka
yeah or we could just uh we just go the whole way and just do House of leaves and we
can all do our interpretation of what actually happened perfect sorry I missed some of those
[ __ ] Elon [ __ ] Elon oh I I suggested like a very post-modern book
called House of leaves where it's a book within a book within a book oh that sounds fun it was kind of a joke
but we could go ahead and do the Canterbury Tales I have to do that I have to do those at
school that's not cool well yeah the Canterbury Tales my summary would be they're almost always the punch line is
about pooping asses or penises I was gonna say about like sex or something like that
yeah my kids would love it it's all about asses um there's I read a really good book
called Watling Street which is basically a folk history of England told by walking one of the oldest roads that's
you know goes back to pre-recorded history basically um but it's sort of told out of order
and there's a lot of them relate back to the Canterbury Tales and the conclusion is almost all of them evolve a joke
about an ass at some point and you're just like and the author reflects that like basically no matter what period of
English History you use we're just obsessed with telling jokes about asses and maybe every country is that's what
makes us human and then that's like his aside and then he just moves on a bit like then there was a cathedral or
whatever and you're like this book's great
should we go back to Tombstone Adam Bomb says uh uh have a Choose Your Own
Adventure book that's more like it if you'd like to Unbound Now flip the
page 89. if you want yeah we get all this stuff discussed where you ended up discuss your adventure you want to piss
off your delegators through a nasty tweet storm go to 76.
I'm good for that should we finish up on tombstone yeah sure man well we've got oh we got
20 minutes uh 20 minutes we've also been recommended a book called flatland in
the yeah I didn't know that book in the comments which given that Ben has also doxed his dad as an English literature
Professor we can assume that the flat land in question is a satirical Novella
by the English Schoolmaster Edwin Abbott Abbott an amazing name uh published in
1884 by Celia Co of London written anonymously by a square the book used the fictional two-dimensional world of
flatland to comment on the hierarchy of Victorian culture um
I've not heard of it nor have I read it it sounds it sounds like a real head not a
do you have this it straight away made me think of um what's the name of the the second book by Suzanne Clark piranese you know where it's like which
also piranesi is is very very similar to House of leaves so
as soon I guess as soon as novelists start having a nervous breakdown they start writing books about labyrinths
right that's what novelists seem to do very talented esoteric novelist they have a breakdown they write a story
about a labyrinth um and it's like oh is it a metaphor for the author's own struggle to get the
book out so what do we think about the uh
well firstly so but butthurt influences do you think that was sort of covered off in prop 89 or
inner notes yes yeah yeah I'll put a put a line through that so
what yeah yeah okay so
um unturned storming so it's been a trend of late um that people who have let's say
um accidentally turned Tombstone themselves that the network is making more or less special provision to like
bring these people back and unturned Stone them so I guess that you know that
is like and they're doing it um as the phrase sort of mentioned before in his um in his tweet they're more or less
doing it outside of consensus as well uh maybe a social consensus among
um validators as people who well and actually you know
now that I think about it that's not actually true because people have to vote in the upgrade they're not doing it
outside of an upgrade so nine times out of ten these un Tombstone unturned stonings are part of an upgrade
so I guess people technically are voting for it
it's not as clear as if it was two separate props right like it is part of an upgrade and people usually vote Yes
on upgrades and kind of move along but but I mean you can shoot down the probe and say no Take that [ __ ] Tombstone
out of it yeah I mean I think that's a fun discussion
to be had in itself right like I think it was the Chihuahua one I I voted yes
because it was an upgrade and I didn't realize that there's on tombstone in it and I'm sure that is true for many other
people right like how often are we voting yes on these props where it turns out we're literally undoing potentially
nefarious Behavior I think that's fascinating I'm I I'll admit I was kind
of ashamed whenever that came through and I was like oh [ __ ] that's something I I should have caught and had a
discussion about and I learned you know when the upgrade went through that oh now we have a validator back because
this was in the upgrade Handler that I didn't review right right yeah yeah I kind of thing I mean
are we our Viewpoint overall are we kind of in favor of this idea of being able
to back out and and what what even if it's through a halt or a mistake from a
validator's perspective that's away from an actual halt's actually increase the risk of of tombstoning just
based on people not understanding the whole stack and taking steps faster than they should or doing things that they
don't understand or following bad directions and Discord like things like that happen right like those are those
are situations that happen and people just copy paste commands and next thing you know that they're Tombstone after the chain moves a block or something
similar to that um that's one situation another situation is people just [ __ ] up like people you know they run
commands and not again don't understand the whole stack and doing something on their own I mean well I mean usurper
that we are sort of taking in good faith that they're [ __ ] up and not trying to do something uh nefarious like you say
fair enough yep fair enough yep that's true like and I don't know what I mean in a single validator double signing I'm
not sure what nefarious structure could be there so much you know based on the percentages that we're talking about but
yeah I mean usually I would think that it's probably it's probably just a [ __ ] up so but I
mean is there is there leeway in any of those situations is it is it worth having leeway and if if there is leeway
like in these type of situations like then what what responsibility The validators Have and
what's the point of all this [ __ ] then well and so there are rules that apply to only a handful of folks right ever
stake uh I think is ever stake Tombstone twice on Atmos and there was no
consideration to bring them back up but then right there have been other validators that because they're small they're like well we should just we just
bring them back up right so how's this even applying like they tried yeah so Rama says uh is the devs gave wrong
instructions sufficient justification valves should review the notes and only run verified [ __ ] so there are some
situations like in um upgrades where things go terribly awry and they may be situations that
validators haven't like unless you're pretty experienced in it and I think we as a group have probably bumped up
against the issues that people are getting um Tombstone for more or less in test
Nets um and so you know if you're a more
inexperienced validator you might not know that these things that you're doing are going to result in a tombstone
whereas the rest of us already know because of we've done it in in test Nets yeah but I think that comes
down to still like you know validate or experience the competence of the operator
um and like we've talked about before as well like actually having playbooks with how to deal with situations and I think
most of us if not all of us here um specifically run remote signers for
that very issue of double signing during upgrades
yo I tried to double sign I'm not doing anything right now but I'd like well
tmkms will specifically say attempt to double sign that yes
attempt to double sign attempt to double sign attempt to double sign I won't do that because I'm a good I'm a good
softwares um but yeah if you if you run local
um signing material it is like really [ __ ]
pertinent to really know what you're doing when it's an upgrade and it goes to [ __ ] the best thing you can do if
you're not sure is just turn your [ __ ] machine off and wait for other people to get the network going yeah but
yeah I mean also the copy pasting does come into it you
so because a lot of people copy paste their way into actually running a [ __ ] validator begin with and they
just blindly take orders from the devs and they say do this and people go copy pasta boom
double sign [ __ ] yeah I mean you get bad advice in those
channels from all sorts of different types of values even very large validators that that might have somebody who doesn't necessarily or just pasting
something that might work for them because of a certain reason but doesn't necessarily apply to all individuals but
it's not just devs and sometimes I mean that happens as well like project devs might not really understand the intricacies of how the signing process
works and just like oh we're just going to make this and this and this and like no look you're changing the state and you're wiping the state file out and
you've signed and so like just not understanding that structure it because that's not really the dev side that's
the chain side right the validator state file I think is office yes understood the fact that in the way the consensus
rounds work it is an important part of consensus and if you just [ __ ] nuke
that guy right you're going to double-sided right right yeah and and I think a lot of
inexperienced validators assume and I certainly did before maybe
maybe as late as the the Lucina I don't know it would have
been around around or before the Juno launch I guess it was probably
the time when it finally clicked me because I understood that there were you know what the polka was
the John Candy um was it home Alone um no that was uh oh yeah it was it was
home alone you're right yeah you're right poker King in the midwest um but yeah the the polka that happens in tenement the consensus rounds is
called a polka sorry for those for those who don't know in the tent the tender men consensus rounds they happen until there's a valid block
um agreed upon right and they time out quite they time out very quickly when they're they're kind of running each one
of them is called a poker and so I'm not just saying polka because I'm insane I am insane but I'm also saying poke about
saying polka for a good reason anyway poke poke poke poke poker I understood the poker but I didn't understand
clearly enough the role that that played in in double signing right because I
thought until the block was agreed you couldn't double so it had to be a malicious
um basically like like no no this is the block and obviously that's not blah blah with the same key matter which is
obviously very very hard to do actually when you stop and think about it you're like oh the much more common malicious
action is actually to interrupt and try and rewrite the state of the the
consensus rounds right which is why you double sign in that scenario that's exactly why you double side because the
chart the the other attack vectors open to you involve complicated cryptographic
manipulation that may or may not even be possible where it's just like going oh yeah you guys will say it's round 300 well I say
it's round zero and I have some different transactions right that's like
yeah it's kind of obvious in hindsight like ladies and gentlemen the jury it was obvious in hindsight why are we
double-sided um but yeah I mean it's I don't those things are documented but again it's all
kind of like there's a lot of things to learn in Cosmos so I don't even think it's just that validates inexperienced validators
it in so far as it cannot be their fault like I at least understand that there is
a lot to learn about this stuff and I think it takes time for a lot of this stuff to sink in like familiarity and
all of that I mean if there's no consequences towards it then I just don't understand
what the motivation is to understand it and to spend the time to and
understanding that means that you're you're becoming an expert in that craft and there's a craft here there's a craft
in terms of understanding it and being able to run High availability and you know architectures and there's a lot
here it's not just [ __ ] a head snare box and 100 bucks a month right so so if you're gonna spend the time to do that
then I think then that should be rewarded and the reward for that is by
people who don't spend the time that doing that getting Tombstone to getting kicked the [ __ ] out and then they should not be allowed to
be come back in and there's Rule and there's roles for new people they either get to him soon kick the [ __ ] out or the
ones that continue to be able to not find themselves stepping on their own whatever allows them to be able to move
up the set so if you're not going to enforce the rule why I'm not going to rule right regardless of the structure
of it right so exactly right like near for example they they don't take issue
with double signing they handle it instead by if you if you're running like two valves it's legitimate to run like
two full validators at the same time of your same validator and then only one will sign and if the other one signs
then the other one just kind of it's great Moses along right and I don't think that that's a huge issue
but if we're making this big claim that Tombstone double signing results in all these consequences then we should
enforce the consequences rather than than spending Dev time undoing said consequences or totally agree I think
that you can actually disable double-siding consequences I think I should get rid of that is yeah I think a
karsh has it disabled fine if we're not going to go by the consequences then let's just not have it yeah but just vote on it for [ __ ] sake
like yeah don't just turn it off yeah exactly yeah like make make it part
of the right make it part of the protocol don't just like just give everybody a [ __ ] freebie on it here's my here's my thought on this don't
[ __ ] rug me um here's an idea we could do like I think
there's two issues here one is this Tombstone thing the other thing we've talked about in this show in the past has been around like self-bonding or
validators just quote unquote dumping or just dumping all this type of thing I I kind of think that the tombstone the
slash should only come off the Val not off the not off the stakers so my my changes in this Ramen take notes this is
what I would do I would make it where the slash comes off the validator not
the stakers it would be on the percentage so if it's five percent or ten percent of the total amount staked
and then that means the validator has to have the self-bond to match that
percentage and that controls our VP so meaning like if if I have a hundred
thousand staked I gotta have 5 000 that's self guaranteed on the validator
that a lot that is is my slash protection and so all this [ __ ] around like soft slash protected and
hard slash protected which is total [ __ ] horseshit ninety percent of the time all that goes away because you
can't actually stick to that validator unless they have the internal stake to be able to allow more stake on top of
that now that might totally [ __ ] up the set and then usurper lifts the mask and
Senator Warren is under that's a good that's a good plan I like that plant because we because the idea would be maybe maybe the percentages aren't one
to one maybe it's not exactly five percent or it's a percentage of that percent or something similar to that and maybe it's not 100 it goes to the valve
maybe it's 50 50. it's two and a half percent from each all the delegators and two and a half percent from the validator but you could figure out a
percentage that says that we want to be able to see some some self-delegation from the validator itself we want to have some skin in the game in that
structure we want to have the validator actually have some ownership of that meaning like if they do get slashed most
time if they get slashed it means nothing to them because they have nothing in the [ __ ] validator so like
they're not staked in there maybe maybe they're staked individually or they're selling all that off so like does it actually hurt them I in some of these
cases I'm guessing it hurts them at zero at all like at all all right it just
hurts I really like that idea that that is a [ __ ] there's got to be a way in there
to be able to put the owners on the validator number one number two Force some self-stakes so they have some
[ __ ] skin in the game and if they double sign then they lose their own [ __ ] it's not a delegator problem this
is an operator problem and so what we actually have is the Opera the the
delegators get hurt in this situation not the validator because most of the time they have very little self-stake
involved they might have their own Wallets on they're not I'm not I'm not bad enough like we do as well and all that kind of stuff and there might be
some in there but maybe some of those maybe on some chains they sell 100 of that off so they might be sitting in
number 10 but they have nothing in the validator and they're nothing in personal walls because the IBC it all off which means if they double sign they
have who gives a [ __ ] put me back in right because they've already made that money so there's got to be something in
here because this this model right now I think is totally broken so usurper I I tend to um agree with uh
Ben Davis uh he says I was going to say 50 50 everyone should have skin in the
game and yeah I believe that it's possible yeah I think you could have a mix of um what you're saying as well as
what is already in place in that delegators need to get slashed so they
learn their lesson right don't [ __ ] do research and don't delegate the [ __ ] validators
um but also yeah I think that you could greatly increase the liability of the
the validator and I think that is a great way to make sure that they have self-stake
um in blocking delegation unless they have enough skin in the game to be slashed for any misconduct and if
somebody's in the top ten they should have enough self-stake because they're showing that they are dedicated to that
chain right and I just I get I get the whole idea around like having personal wallets and all that kind of [ __ ] I understand
some of that um at the same point at the same point there's plenty of ways
like we do the same thing we had a [ __ ] box of [ __ ] ledgers here you can have validators on Hardware wallets
there's no it's either safe ways to be able to run that there's no reason it couldn't sit on a centralized wallet as
well so I think I think there's there's something here that that maybe we can dig more into because I I it just
seems like it's really broken now um and right now I don't think there's any motivation for right now there's no motivation for the validators not the
double sign like it's there is there it's public humiliation and they get called out and and The Fray gets to roll his Tombstone
video and all that kind of stuff like that's like literally I think this is the hardest hitting
double sent is this it is there any other like Mass maybe Twitter and this I don't know if
that's it that the only place that people get called out for the [ __ ] Tombstone I don't know if that's it
might be a yeah so like it just it doesn't seem like there's just enough there's not a like if we're gonna if
it's gonna be a rule we want to have some structure around it then then we should do that so I I think I think you said but your idea is a really
interesting one I guess I think it's it's also interesting and scary because
you go well any any regulation that comes down will
be focused on proof of stake from the point of view of ethereum and then we're going to end up with weird being in the
weird position as cosmos validates where every chain can set its own rules which
they already can obviously but it's going to be increasingly interesting to operate as a proof of stake validator as
things sort of shift as I've always said the second Regulators workout wait the
[ __ ] you can just [ __ ] rewrite the history yeah
they're gonna just [ __ ] come down like a ton of bricks on every validator and pretty mistake is [ __ ] dead
um but my actual thought the one that I think is more pertinent to this is like as
various folks have said in the chat as we were talking about with Akash um as Rama said you know some has zero
slashing you do we actually think slashing is even necessary at this point
like is it downtime slashing yeah we should have that that makes sense but the slashing for
um for the double sign the reality is these are not coming from
attacks they are coming from incompetent almost always incompetence or or upgrade failures that
result in a double sign and we're all validated most of us are violating networks where there are no consequence
for a double sign a valid block is minted and the chain moves on yeah so because because double sign is
actually not all that related to double spend it's a penalty for submitting evidence that is wrong
from the point of view of consensus but consensus keeps going on because consensus has already got the 67 in
order to say that you were wrong right and so what's the point of
slashing for a mistake rather than like arguably our most important thing we
should be doing is keeping uptime right now I'm I'm of the dissenting opinion that I think anything above let's say
like 80 or 90 that's plenty it's not like you lose uh any sort of staking
rewards for missing a block you don't we've shown that so as long as you're keeping the chain going then we can miss
you know 10 of blocks or whatever fine why is a mistake punished more heavily
than like what our actual job is supposed to be